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ScottS
"Anyway guys, your smear campaign seems to be failing on this forum, I have noticed of late that the CT'ers are outnumbering the OCT'ers...

You'll have to work a little harder guys... "

Try reading why everyone thinks he's bogus hereward rather than glossing all of that information over. Yes and Sagadevan responses didn't seem to help. NO I don't think I really need to work much harder on this one. Seems clear. Go ahead start asking piliots.
gordon
Have you tried giving this to other experts such as rec.aviation.piloting or different other expert panels. What do they say?


The response would depend on their opinions on 911 and whether the questioner made reference to 911.
http://www.dynamictruth.com/cgi-bin/ultima...=1;t=004274;p=0

Gordon
ScottS
QUOTE (gordon+Mar 9 2006, 03:36 PM)
Have you tried giving this to other experts such as rec.aviation.piloting or different other expert panels. What do they say?


The response would depend on their opinions on 911 and whether the questioner made reference to 911.
http://www.dynamictruth.com/cgi-bin/ultima...=1;t=004274;p=0

Gordon

Did he mention he had a commercial pilot certificate and private pilot's license like Hanjour?

Completed the initial training on a Boeing 737 simulator at Pan Am International Flight Academy

Plus additional training and practice flights

What did the instructor say?
Ron
Quote reasonwhy:
"Do you have another source for this BS? It is obvious an intelligence agency would not want there activities labeled a conspiracy (people might demand trials and real criminal investigations when a crime is committed). "

retestated:
" Conspiracy theories, such as seeing seemingly unrelated news events as parts of a larger, typically conspiratorial plan "
Commen sense
If anyone wants see how easy it is to fly a 767 into a building just buy Microsoft Flight Simulator...

User posted image

User posted image

The flight dynamics are very true to life. A good feedback yoke and rutter controller and you to can be a terrorist.

Once in flight it's just point and pray.
reasonwhy
QUOTE (Ron+Mar 9 2006, 08:14 AM)
Quote reasonwhy:
"Do you have another source for this BS? It is obvious an intelligence agency would not want there activities labeled a conspiracy (people might demand trials and real criminal investigations when a crime is committed). "

retestated:
" Conspiracy theories, such as seeing seemingly unrelated news events as parts of a larger, typically conspiratorial plan "

I will take that as a no, there is not another reference.
Commen sense
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 9 2006, 04:35 PM)
QUOTE (Ron+Mar 9 2006, 08:14 AM)
Quote reasonwhy:
"Do you have another source for this BS? It is obvious an intelligence agency would not want there activities labeled a conspiracy (people might demand trials and real criminal investigations when a crime is committed). "

retestated:
" Conspiracy theories, such as seeing seemingly unrelated news events as parts of a larger, typically conspiratorial plan "

I will take that as a no, there is not another reference.

More logical fallacy.

Notice how they are trying desperately to move away from the label?

No, no evidence at all your theories are conspiracy theories...

http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?ChannelID=89

http://control-alt-delete.ca/v-web/bulleti...13b01fad256810e

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_conspiracy_theories

http://www.answers.com/topic/9-11-conspiracy-theories

blink.gif
reasonwhy
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 9 2006, 08:31 AM)
The flight dynamics are very true to life. A good feedback yoke and rutter controller and you to can be a terrorist.

Once in flight it's just point and pray.

How do you know the feedback is true to life? Have you or anyone else on your disinformation team piloted a 767?

Read the thread Gordon posted.
newton
QUOTE (gordon+Mar 9 2006, 03:36 PM)
Have you tried giving this to other experts such as rec.aviation.piloting or different other expert panels. What do they say?


The response would depend on their opinions on 911 and whether the questioner made reference to 911.
http://www.dynamictruth.com/cgi-bin/ultima...=1;t=004274;p=0

Gordon

brilliant, gordon.

notice how all the MILITARY pilots, some who work at the PENTAGON, like the moderator who closed the thread, were pointing and laughing at the stupid question.

'you'd be shot down'

'might as well try and get a monkey to do math'

'if a pilot handed it over perfectly trimmed, the guy would lose it THIRTY SECONDS after he tried to put into descent'

and then, as soon as the (thick) military types figure out it's a reference to 911, everything changes, and now it's easy peasy to do it.

'dynamictruth', indeed.
gordon
It is true that flying very high is a BIT LIKE IFR, but all of them descended almost immediately,

How do we know this if the transponder was switched off.

He fails to mention the AUTO PILOT that allows "dialing in" a destination and will handle keeping the wings level and even making turns.

Is the auto pilot operable with the transponder off?

When you are trying to take a WIDE angle picture in a room (i.e. 3 people sitting around talking about how their last mission was wildly successful) then you have to use a WIDE ANGLE, this will get them all in the same shot, but it will DISTORT the picture

Does this also change the camera subject’s dominant hand so that, say a left handed person would become right handed. It’s just that I heard that the CIA file on bin-forgotten states that he was left handed but in the video, he is right handed. Could this be a calculated ruse just in case the video or a copy of it was left behind in a house somewhere and the CIA stumbled across it. Like the Galloway “evidence”.

Once that happened, most of the columns, perimeter and inner, would have already been compromised, either buckled in compression or disconnected at their splices in tension. The whole top of a building can't turn that much without compromising most or all the columns. The whole upper section fell about 5 floors worth or more by the time it reached the mechanical floors.

How is it possible for a normally compressed beam to fracture in tension, connections or otherwise, requiring that the upper section acts vertically or near vertically upwards, but still bodily fall downwards by five floors?
brian
QUOTE (ScottS+Mar 9 2006, 04:01 PM)
QUOTE (gordon+Mar 9 2006, 03:36 PM)
Have you tried giving this to other experts such as rec.aviation.piloting or different other expert panels. What do they say?


The response would depend on their opinions on 911 and whether the questioner made reference to 911.
http://www.dynamictruth.com/cgi-bin/ultima...=1;t=004274;p=0

Gordon

Did he mention he had a commercial pilot certificate and private pilot's license like Hanjour?

Completed the initial training on a Boeing 737 simulator at Pan Am International Flight Academy

Plus additional training and practice flights

What did the instructor say?

The instructor said - "if he pointed the plane..."

Looking at Gordons link I can only assume the instructor was drunk or under pressure.

What is the status of - Col. Donn de Grand-Pre and the " group of military and civilian pilots" that concluded the flights were not in control of pilots?

When taken with the estimation of air traffic controllers this seems logical - if indeed the planes were even the same planes.



"AJ: We are talking to Col. Donn de Grand-Pre and he worked in many of the levels of the U.S. military and has put out some really important information. Two years ago, he put out a report in a meeting in a 72-hour deliberation, a group of military and civilian U.S. pilots under the chairmanship of Col. Donn de Grand-Pre. After deliberating non-stop for 72-hours has concluded that the flight crews of the four passenger airliners involved in the September 11th tragedy had no control over the aircraft."-

http://www.prisonplanet.com/022904degrand.html
reasonwhy
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 9 2006, 08:52 AM)
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 9 2006, 04:35 PM)
QUOTE (Ron+Mar 9 2006, 08:14 AM)
Quote reasonwhy:
"Do you have another source for this BS? It is obvious an intelligence agency would not want there activities labeled a conspiracy (people might demand trials and real criminal investigations when a crime is committed). "

retestated:
" Conspiracy theories, such as seeing seemingly unrelated news events as parts of a larger, typically conspiratorial plan "

I will take that as a no, there is not another reference.

More logical fallacy.

Notice how they are trying desperately to move away from the label?

No, no evidence at all your theories are conspiracy theories...

http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?ChannelID=89

http://control-alt-delete.ca/v-web/bulleti...13b01fad256810e

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_conspiracy_theories

http://www.answers.com/topic/9-11-conspiracy-theories

blink.gif

You don’t even read the information you post:

9/11 conspiracy theories

According to the 9/11 Commission Report, nineteen al-Qaeda terrorists hijacked four commercial aircraft on the morning of September 11, 2001. Two of these planes crashed into the Twin Towers of the World Trade Center in New York City, one flew into the headquarters of the U.S. Department of Defense at the Pentagon in Arlington County, Virginia, and the final plane crashed in a field near Shanksville, Pennsylvania after passengers attempted to over-power the hijackers. Doubting this explanation, a number of alternative hypotheses have been formulated to explain the events surrounding September 11th. What follows is an examination of the most current and most prominent alternate views of explanations, and anomalies of that tragic day.

As with almost all major historical events, there exists a wide variety of theories about those occurring on 9/11. Alternative theories to the common account surrounding this subject are generally placed in one or more of the following classifications:
• Individuals within the U.S. government are covering up key details of the attacks and stonewalling an honest, exhaustive investigation into the events.
• Individuals within the U.S. government had foreknowledge of the attacks and consciously failed to prevent them. This group can be referred to as LIHOP ("Let It Happen On Purpose").
• Individuals within the U.S. government orchestrated the attacks themselves. This group can be referred to as MIHOP ("Make It Happen On Purpose").
• Individuals within the government of Israel or Iraq were behind the attacks.
http://www.answers.com/topic/9-11-conspiracy-theories


Before the sun had set on the evening of September 11, competing theories in opposition to the latest press reports were being developed to explain what had occurred. A history of events began to emerge from the mainstream press, further known in this article as the common account or official story. For each event that transpired that Tuesday, there has arisen an alternate view.
http://www.answers.com/topic/9-11-conspiracy-theories


For your information the “common account” is the “official conspiracy theory”. I wounder if Ron is going to ask you to stop posting “pure BS”. You sure are not helping him.
newton
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 9 2006, 04:52 PM)
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 9 2006, 04:35 PM)
QUOTE (Ron+Mar 9 2006, 08:14 AM)
Quote reasonwhy:
"Do you have another source for this BS? It is obvious an intelligence agency would not want there activities labeled a conspiracy (people might demand trials and real criminal investigations when a crime is committed). "

retestated:
" Conspiracy theories, such as seeing seemingly unrelated news events as parts of a larger, typically conspiratorial plan "

I will take that as a no, there is not another reference.

More logical fallacy.

Notice how they are trying desperately to move away from the label?

No, no evidence at all your theories are conspiracy theories...

http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?ChannelID=89

http://control-alt-delete.ca/v-web/bulleti...13b01fad256810e

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_conspiracy_theories

http://www.answers.com/topic/9-11-conspiracy-theories

blink.gif

i personally don't mind the label. i just think it should apply to all conspiracy theorists, and not just the ones who are actually doing good research.

were the alleged hijackers not conspirators? if we theorise about them, is it not conspiracy theory?

this would be easier if someone could leave more korans lying about. then we could be SURE.

anthrax, anyone?

ommissions from the commissions?

upside down books and a vivid imagination about 'seeing it on television', mr. bush?

planes AND missiles, mr. rumsfeld? (you're not a conspiracy theorist, are you, mr. rumsfeld?)

forty dead microbiologists?

fatty bin laden confesses?

PNAC?

whatever. live happily in lollipop land, non-conspiracy theorists.

ScottS.
QUOTE (brian+Mar 9 2006, 05:08 PM)
QUOTE (ScottS+Mar 9 2006, 04:01 PM)
QUOTE (gordon+Mar 9 2006, 03:36 PM)
Have you tried giving this to other experts such as rec.aviation.piloting or different other expert panels. What do they say?


The response would depend on their opinions on 911 and whether the questioner made reference to 911.
http://www.dynamictruth.com/cgi-bin/ultima...=1;t=004274;p=0

Gordon

Did he mention he had a commercial pilot certificate and private pilot's license like Hanjour?

Completed the initial training on a Boeing 737 simulator at Pan Am International Flight Academy

Plus additional training and practice flights

What did the instructor say?

The instructor said - "if he pointed the plane..."

Looking at Gordons link I can only assume the instructor was drunk or under pressure.

What is the status of - Col. Donn de Grand-Pre and the " group of military and civilian pilots" that concluded the flights were not in control of pilots?

When taken with the estimation of air traffic controllers this seems logical - if indeed the planes were even the same planes.



"AJ: We are talking to Col. Donn de Grand-Pre and he worked in many of the levels of the U.S. military and has put out some really important information. Two years ago, he put out a report in a meeting in a 72-hour deliberation, a group of military and civilian U.S. pilots under the chairmanship of Col. Donn de Grand-Pre. After deliberating non-stop for 72-hours has concluded that the flight crews of the four passenger airliners involved in the September 11th tragedy had no control over the aircraft."-

http://www.prisonplanet.com/022904degrand.html

So I take that as a no.

Maybe we need to know WHO this group was working with Donn de Grand-Pre.

Donn de Grand-Pre also claims Major Rick Gibney blew up Flight 93.
Donn Grand Pre also claims that General Myers, believes that 911 was an inside job.
Christophera
QUOTE (Foxx+Mar 9 2006, 04:28 AM)
As for this picture...

User posted image

It doesn't seem really to matter whether it is real or not... It in no way supports the concrete core theory. The light blockage would have just as easily be accomplished by gyrock.

As for the question where I got it algoxy?... from your site, of course.

And, as for me, I can accept it as real.

Look at those walls blocking out the sun on the mechanical floors, and review the article by guardian regarding that wall being blown out to initiate the 'collapse'.

Obviously... you had to get by those massive beams that the mechanical floors were resting on before the collapse of 4 or 5 floors could continue.



True gypsum will block the light, but it won't reflect it very well and we see a fairly brilliant shimmer in the vertical line of light in WTC 1. Concrete which has been formed with steel forms can be very smooth and reflective. I've blinded by it a few times.

In the documentary the inner breakdown steel form was mentioned often as it was advanced up the cores maximum 40 foot concrete pours.

Okay, you found the image on my site, copied it and moved it to your server and that is why its url was different in the post you link to. I found it on Let's Roll 9-11, I think, about 2 years ago. I didn't use it in posts becuase I didn't know enough about it. After a New Yorker got me past the obvious, that it was a sunrise not a sunset, I was able to mostly understand why the light in the halls appears as it does and began using it.

Yes. When you say the descent of debris had to be enabled by the removal of the heavy mechanical floors, you are absolutely right. Meaning, within that necessity, the visible blast might not be premature, but was instead used to direct the fall of debris to the east.
adoucette
It is true that flying very high is a BIT LIKE IFR, but all of them descended almost immediately,

How do we know this if the transponder was switched off.

==> We don't from the encoding altimeter, thus the controllers didn't know, which is why they were so busy getting planes AT ALL ALTITUDES OUT OF THEIR WAY, but we did figure it out later from other radar returns and from other info (phone calls, other sightings by pilots, black boxes etc)


He fails to mention the AUTO PILOT that allows "dialing in" a destination and will handle keeping the wings level and even making turns.

Is the auto pilot operable with the transponder off?

==> Yes, the transponder is a pretty passive device, it RESPONDS to getting pinged by PRIMARY radar, with it off the controllers still know the radial the plane is on, course and speed, but not exact height. The transponder being on or off has no effect on flying the aircraft.

When you are trying to take a WIDE angle picture in a room (i.e. 3 people sitting around talking about how their last mission was wildly successful) then you have to use a WIDE ANGLE, this will get them all in the same shot, but it will DISTORT the picture

Does this also change the camera subject’s dominant hand so that, say a left handed person would become right handed. It’s just that I heard that the CIA file on bin-forgotten states that he was left handed but in the video, he is right handed. Could this be a calculated ruse just in case the video or a copy of it was left behind in a house somewhere and the CIA stumbled across it. Like the Galloway “evidence”.

===> See AMBIDEXTROUS

Arthur
Ron
http://www.vandruff.com/conspire.html
" Conspiracy Theory - Intro and Overview
Conspiracy Theory is more than just the belief in an occasional conspiracy. Simply put, it is a belief system that asserts that world events are being controlled in secret by a group of ultra-powerful puppeteers behind the scenes. While nothing much can be done about this overall conspiracy, at least we can have the satisfaction of being smart enough to have figured it all out.
If viewed as fiction, Conspiracy Theory is compelling and fascinating. If it were just a nightmarish novel meant to be unnerving and just a bit beyond plausible, like Asimov's Foundation, that would be one thing. But Conspiracy Theory projects its fiction onto real-life people, families, groups, and organizations. It purports to actually be true... and this is the problem."

http://chronicle.com/free/v49/i34/34b01401.htm

"A small band of neoconservative (read, Jewish) defense intellectuals, led by the "mastermind," Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz (according to Michael Lind, writing in the New Statesman), has taken advantage of 9/11 to put their ideas over on an ignorant, inexperienced, and "easily manipulated" president (Eric Alterman in The Nation), his "elderly figurehead" Defense Secretary (as Lind put it), and the "dutiful servant of power" who is our secretary of state (Edward Said, London Review of Books).

Also, try this one to come up with some new ideas of your own instead of regurgitating other "reputable" sources , such as 911truth, scholars for 911, and any more of the well respected sources you guys quote.

http://www.cjnetworks.com/~cubsfan/old_conspiracy.html
ScottS.
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 9 2006, 05:31 PM)
It is true that flying very high is a BIT LIKE IFR, but all of them descended almost immediately,

How do we know this if the transponder was switched off.

==> We don't from the encoding altimeter, thus the controllers didn't know, which is why they were so busy getting planes AT ALL ALTITUDES OUT OF THEIR WAY, but we did figure it out later from other radar returns and from other info (phone calls, other sightings by pilots, black boxes etc)


He fails to mention the AUTO PILOT that allows "dialing in" a destination and will handle keeping the wings level and even making turns.

Is the auto pilot operable with the transponder off?

==> Yes, the transponder is a pretty passive device, it RESPONDS to getting pinged by PRIMARY radar, with it off the controllers still know the radial the plane is on, course and speed, but not exact height. The transponder being on or off has no effect on flying the aircraft.

When you are trying to take a WIDE angle picture in a room (i.e. 3 people sitting around talking about how their last mission was wildly successful) then you have to use a WIDE ANGLE, this will get them all in the same shot, but it will DISTORT the picture

Does this also change the camera subject’s dominant hand so that, say a left handed person would become right handed. It’s just that I heard that the CIA file on bin-forgotten states that he was left handed but in the video, he is right handed. Could this be a calculated ruse just in case the video or a copy of it was left behind in a house somewhere and the CIA stumbled across it. Like the Galloway “evidence”.

===> See AMBIDEXTROUS

Arthur

There has been a lot written on this. Many have also suspected that he (Bin Laden) was injured.
adoucette
QUOTE (newton+Mar 9 2006, 12:56 PM)
brilliant, gordon.

notice how all the MILITARY pilots, some who work at the PENTAGON, like the moderator who closed the thread, were pointing and laughing at the stupid question.

'you'd be shot down'

'might as well try and get a monkey to do math'

'if a pilot handed it over perfectly trimmed, the guy would lose it THIRTY SECONDS after he tried to put into descent'

and then, as soon as the (thick) military types figure out it's a reference to 911, everything changes, and now it's easy peasy to do it.

'dynamictruth', indeed.

Nothing brilliant about it.

It was a strawman from the get go.

QUOTE
I have some training in flying small aircraft and have tried out some flight simulators. Some sort of tragedy occurs and the pilot and co-pilot are incapacitated, autopilot turned off and all communications lost. The flight attendents ask if anyone else could attempt to fly the plane.

It turns out I am the only one with any flying experience at all, even though I've never flown anything close to a 757. So I am asked to take the controls so that I can try to guide the plane back to the airport about an hour away and attempt as good a landing as possible on the runway.

Using only the visual references 30,000 feet below and my basic light aircraft skills, what are my chances of turning the plane round, guiding it to the desired city, pinpointing the airport, descending at the right rate, and then, when within range, banking sharply at the last minute and managing to come down within yards of the ideal location?

How would you rate my chances?


They had much more training than this person alludes to.
The hijackers had studied and done simulator time ON THE 757/767 cockpit
Thus they would be familiar with many of the things the people on the board claim would be impossible to master.
Pinpointing an airport is not the same as the WTC or the pentagon
They weren't trying to land, though that is what is asked.
He ASSUMES the Autopilot is turned off.

The "you'd be shot down" is NOW, not back then.

Finally, there are members that do believe a pilot could pull it off.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
I have some training in flying small aircraft and have tried out some flight simulators. Some sort of tragedy occurs and the pilot and co-pilot are incapacitated, autopilot turned off and all communications lost. The flight attendents ask if anyone else could attempt to fly the plane.

It turns out I am the only one with any flying experience at all, even though I've never flown anything close to a 757. So I am asked to take the controls so that I can try to guide the plane back to the airport about an hour away and attempt as good a landing as possible on the runway.

Using only the visual references 30,000 feet below and my basic light aircraft skills, what are my chances of turning the plane round, guiding it to the desired city, pinpointing the airport, descending at the right rate, and then, when within range, banking sharply at the last minute and managing to come down within yards of the ideal location?

How would you rate my chances?


They had much more training than this person alludes to.
The hijackers had studied and done simulator time ON THE 757/767 cockpit
Thus they would be familiar with many of the things the people on the board claim would be impossible to master.
Pinpointing an airport is not the same as the WTC or the pentagon
They weren't trying to land, though that is what is asked.
He ASSUMES the Autopilot is turned off.

The "you'd be shot down" is NOW, not back then.

Finally, there are members that do believe a pilot could pull it off.

In all reality, if you have somewhat and recent flying experience, it really would NOT be that hard.

You'll be talking to "Company" on whatever freq, and they'll tell you anything and everything you need to know...

As a pilot of a different airplane, you'll get it QUICK, trust me...

Any qualified (IFR) pilot could shack this in my opinion.....


Arthur
Mel_Guest
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 9 2006, 04:31 PM)
If anyone wants see how easy it is to fly a 767 into a building just buy Microsoft Flight Simulator...

User posted image

User posted image

The flight dynamics are very true to life. A good feedback yoke and rutter controller and you to can be a terrorist.

Once in flight it's just point and pray.

Or, buy MS Combat Flight Simulator, fly over a civilian population and drop bombs. You too can be a terrorist.
Foxx
I was wrong about the mechanical floor being the 78th. I am so ashamed to admit that I ...pope Foxx... could be wrong about something,...biggrin.gif, but I'm afraid arthur has correctly pointed out that the mechanical floors were the 75th & 76th.

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/v...stc_frames.html

Now, arthur... how does this previous error on my part change the essence of what I said?

The explosion which occured below the fire and impact floors does not jive with the official story. There were no 'raging infernos' on the 77th floor to set off oxygen tanks or transformers.

Here is the computer sim 'model' for the 78th floor in the south tower...

User posted image

http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/comsim003.jpg

So from this floor down the entire building was essentially as strong as the day it had been built. According to the official theory there were no structural damages nor fires on this floor. According to the computer sim model there was no heat affecting that floor or the ones below.

Here again is the quote from NIST that I pointed out...

QUOTE

From the NIST documents

The video shot from the WTC plaza captured an intriguing event at 9:37:04 am. A jet of air, dust, and a large piece of debris was ejected from a window, 77-335 on the 77th floor at an extremely high velocity.


Regardless of my error on the mechanical floor number... this intriguing event clearly indicates an explosive event happening on the 77th floor which was BELOW the fire floors. This does not fit the official theory, but is completely supportive of the explosives theory.

Note that this one particular event was about twenty minutes before the initiation of collapse.

Note also, that it was not the only anomalous "puff-of smoke / debris" occuring prior to the 'collapse'....

QUOTE (->
QUOTE

From the NIST documents

The video shot from the WTC plaza captured an intriguing event at 9:37:04 am. A jet of air, dust, and a large piece of debris was ejected from a window, 77-335 on the 77th floor at an extremely high velocity.


Regardless of my error on the mechanical floor number... this intriguing event clearly indicates an explosive event happening on the 77th floor which was BELOW the fire floors. This does not fit the official theory, but is completely supportive of the explosives theory.

Note that this one particular event was about twenty minutes before the initiation of collapse.

Note also, that it was not the only anomalous "puff-of smoke / debris" occuring prior to the 'collapse'....


"Just before 9:52 am, puffs of smoke and/or dust were expelled from multiple locations on the north face near the east edge. Almost immediately a bright spot appeared at the top of a window on the 80th floor, four removed from the east edge, and a glowing liquid began to pour from this location."


Well, golly gee, elmer - that certainly matches the description of an incendiary (thermate) bomb to me - the puffs being the 'squibb' which set off the incendiary charge and 'almost immediately' a glowing liquid begins to pour from the spot.

QUOTE

Many such liquid flows were observed from near this location prior to the collapse of the tower. Several were accompanied by puffs of dust and smoke that were now occuring frequently.


User posted image

http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/002thermNF942.jpg

QUOTE (->
QUOTE

Many such liquid flows were observed from near this location prior to the collapse of the tower. Several were accompanied by puffs of dust and smoke that were now occuring frequently.


User posted image

http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/002thermNF942.jpg


Additional unusual behaviours observed for WTC 2 included the correlated smoke puffs observed over large areas of the facade and the roughly one-minute periods during which the smoke flows increased dramatically, often accompanied by external flames... At least 65 occurrences of smoke puffs were documented along with 7 times when the one-minute long smoke releases took place.


Gee... almost sounds like what some conspiracy theorist would write about explosions leading to the collapse... but these quotes are taken directly from the NIST report.

This strikes me as blatant evidence of the emperors-nice-new-clothes syndrome. NIST calmly documents all these occurrences, then claims... we have seen no evidence of explosions.

What the hell do you call the above descriptions?

If we weren't discussing the twin towers, I seriously doubt that anyone on this forum or in the population at large would consider these OTHER THAN descriptions of explosions.

It reminds me of that guy who came up with the theory that the Sphinx was eroded by rainfall.

When he showed pictures of the Sphinx to geologists they would have all kinds of excuses to 'deny', yet when he masked off the head, so that it just looked like a rock outcropping, every geologist agreed the erosion pattern was from water - not sand. That is the power of the emperors-new-clothes syndrome. The manipulation of group-think.

Here is what I have got copied so far related to these PRE-OCCURRING 'puffs-of smoke' (as you people prefer to call them), rather than the obvious 'squibbs' that they are... (I've got about 15 more pages to add and then I'll co-relate all these ocurrences with the photo-record)...

http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/moltnist.html

For years, you people have been saying these squibbs were just dust ejections from the piston squishing air out of the cylinder... but that just doesn't wash, when they are ocurring BEFORE the collapse and leading to circumstances where molten metal begins to pour from columns.


adoucette
QUOTE (Christophera+Mar 9 2006, 01:26 PM)
True gypsum will block the light, but it won't reflect it very well and we see a fairly brilliant shimmer in the vertical line of light in WTC 1. Concrete which has been formed with steel forms can be very smooth and reflective. I've blinded by it a few times.



Its Gypsum, but it has a SURFACE which when PAINTED (office white?) can be quite reflective.

Arthur

adoucette
QUOTE (Foxx+Mar 9 2006, 02:27 PM)
I was wrong about the mechanical floor being the 78th. I am so ashamed to admit that I ...pope Foxx... could be wrong about something,...biggrin.gif,  but I'm afraid arthur has correctly pointed out that the mechanical floors were the 75th & 76th.

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/v...stc_frames.html

Now, arthur... how does this previous error on my part change the essence of what I said?

The explosion which occured below the fire and impact floors does not jive with the official story. There were no 'raging infernos' on the 77th floor to set off oxygen tanks or transformers.


Well Gee Foxx, it was YOU who BOLDED the fact that it was below the mech floors.

I assumed YOU thought it was significant.


QUOTE (Foxx+)
Did you catch that?... 9:37 ... on the 77th floor ... (just below the mechanical floor)... Two floors below the impact and fire floors.



Or do you just BOLD for the heck of it??

laugh.gif


As to your other point

QUOTE
From the NIST documents

The video shot from the WTC plaza captured an intriguing event at 9:37:04 am. A jet of air, dust, and a large piece of debris was ejected from a window, 77-335 on the 77th floor at an extremely high velocity.


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
From the NIST documents

The video shot from the WTC plaza captured an intriguing event at 9:37:04 am. A jet of air, dust, and a large piece of debris was ejected from a window, 77-335 on the 77th floor at an extremely high velocity.


There were many of these documented leading up to collapse.


But when I asked for proof what do we get?

65 SMOKE PUFFS, but NO MORE HIGH VELOCITY EJECTIONS.

So now the towers were brought down by Controlled SMOKE PUFFS????

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Finally, how do you claim, by QUOTING THINGS FROM THE OFFICIAL REPORT, that the things it describes DON'T JIVE WITH THE OFFICIAL STORY.

Golly Elmer, seems to me that the NIST REPORT is the OFFICIAL STORY.

Arthur
Foxx
QUOTE
Originally posted by the Schneiby


You morons don't even know what building this is from. Building 1,2,3,4,5,6,7??? This photo was posted along side photos from the whole area around ground 0! Heh! What complete and utter idiots! HAHAHA!!!

user posted image



When reason eludes you, and you can't think of anything to say... try the above...

Use 14 pt bolded text insults. That'll be convincing.

The photo was from ground zero. It really matters not from which building it was beneath. I guess it's time to refresh dingbats memory that the wtc was built within a pit...

and from within this pit were USGS readings which confirm the testimony of witnesses that there was highly anomalous thermal activity ocurring for months after the collapse - a situation never recorded before in history...

user posted image

user posted image

http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2001/ofr-01-0429/thermal.r09.html

Testimony of witnesses...

http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2005/...etal-under.html

But... this does not fit the conspiracy theory of these tin-hats, so they prefer to just dismiss these facts in favor of their comfortable fairy tale.

Rather than input any intelligent discourse... it is always more convincing to cast insults in 14 pt bolded text.

Thanks for your objective scientific input on the question. Carry on with your 'interventions'... the rest of us are getting quite a giggle out of your Yosemite Sam impersonation.


biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif


BTW - thanks arthur for your non-response reply. The 'official story' of the courtiers WAS that the emperor had a nice new set of clothes too.

"Look, don't you think he looks nice parading down the street - we have brought him out for you all to see".

A person does not need to resort to 'conspiracy sites' to refute the official fairy tale. The proof is contained in their own nonsensical tale. But you enjoy that nice display the courtiers have set out before you.



frater plecticus
interesting link

http://www.911closeup.com/nico/911chron_timeline_nico.html
adoucette
QUOTE (Foxx+Mar 9 2006, 03:46 PM)
- thanks arthur for your non-response reply. The 'official story' of the courtiers WAS that the emperor had a nice new set of clothes too.


Using Fairy Tales as EXAMPLES is somehow quite appropriate to your WHOLE line of reasoning.

Considering you use 65 PUFFS of smoke as evidence of CD, how long before we hear that the towers were brought down by "Puff the Magic Dragon"

Arthur

BTW the other pictures that unknown picture was sandwiched between did NOT appear to be from within the WTC SITE. i.e. the PIT. Don't know if that means anything, but I tend to assume that numbered pictures like that were taken sequentially.
RealityCheck
QUOTE (Foxx+Mar 9 2006, 07:46 PM)
.....
.......
......
.......
and from within this pit were USGS readings which confirm the testimony of witnesses that there was highly anomalous thermal activity ocurring for months after the collapse - a situation never recorded before in history...

user posted image

user posted image

http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2001/ofr-01-0429/thermal.r09.html

Testimony of witnesses...

http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2005/...etal-under.html

But... this does not fit the conspiracy theory of these tin-hats, so they prefer to just dismiss these facts in favor of their comfortable fairy tale.

Rather than input any intelligent discourse... it is always more convincing to cast insults in 14 pt bolded text.

Thanks for your objective scientific input on the question. Carry on with your 'interventions'... the rest of us are getting quite a giggle out of your Yosemite Sam impersonation.


biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif


BTW - thanks arthur for your non-response reply. The 'official story' of the courtiers WAS that the emperor had a nice new set of clothes too.

"Look, don't you think he looks nice parading down the street - we have brought him out for you all to see".

A person does not need to resort to 'conspiracy sites' to refute the official fairy tale. The proof is contained in their own nonsensical tale. But you enjoy that nice display the courtiers have set out before you.


G'day all! Adoucette, Foxx et al, were the towers' respective rubble piles' 'thermal maxima/profile' over time the SAME? I only ask because if they were NOT the 'same', why not? I would expect that CD set-up would be the same for both towers, and include similar quantities of alleged 'explosives', 'thermite' etc., which would present very similar energy maxima/chronology profiles in those infra-red images. BUT as far as I can see from what has been posted, the two tower rubble fires heat/energy 'signatures' seem pretty DIFFERENT.

As Prof. Sumner Miller used to say: "Why is this so?". Any comments/further-info?

RC.
.
shagster
Someone remembers Julius Sumner Miller. smile.gif Now there's a guy who looked like a real mad scientist. smile.gif
RealityCheck
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 9 2006, 08:25 PM)
Someone remembers Julius Sumner Miller.  smile.gif  Now there's a guy who looked like a real mad scientist. smile.gif


Hehehe. Hi shagster. He was a great (and entertaining) teacher-lecturer with a great 'hook' to captivate his (mainly young) audience. A true 'Vaudevilian' showman! Cheers, mate.

RC.
.
Scott McClellan
The Bush Administration's Revised Bill of Rights

User posted image
Commen sense
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 9 2006, 05:09 PM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 9 2006, 08:52 AM)
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 9 2006, 04:35 PM)
QUOTE (Ron+Mar 9 2006, 08:14 AM)
Quote reasonwhy:
"Do you have another source for this BS? It is obvious an intelligence agency would not want there activities labeled a conspiracy (people might demand trials and real criminal investigations when a crime is committed). "

retestated:
" Conspiracy theories, such as seeing seemingly unrelated news events as parts of a larger, typically conspiratorial plan "

I will take that as a no, there is not another reference.

More logical fallacy.

Notice how they are trying desperately to move away from the label?

No, no evidence at all your theories are conspiracy theories...

http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?ChannelID=89

http://control-alt-delete.ca/v-web/bulleti...13b01fad256810e

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_conspiracy_theories

http://www.answers.com/topic/9-11-conspiracy-theories

blink.gif

You don’t even read the information you post:

9/11 conspiracy theories

According to the 9/11 Commission Report, nineteen al-Qaeda terrorists hijacked four commercial aircraft on the morning of September 11, 2001. Two of these planes crashed into the Twin Towers of the World Trade Center in New York City, one flew into the headquarters of the U.S. Department of Defense at the Pentagon in Arlington County, Virginia, and the final plane crashed in a field near Shanksville, Pennsylvania after passengers attempted to over-power the hijackers. Doubting this explanation, a number of alternative hypotheses have been formulated to explain the events surrounding September 11th. What follows is an examination of the most current and most prominent alternate views of explanations, and anomalies of that tragic day.

As with almost all major historical events, there exists a wide variety of theories about those occurring on 9/11. Alternative theories to the common account surrounding this subject are generally placed in one or more of the following classifications:
• Individuals within the U.S. government are covering up key details of the attacks and stonewalling an honest, exhaustive investigation into the events.
• Individuals within the U.S. government had foreknowledge of the attacks and consciously failed to prevent them. This group can be referred to as LIHOP ("Let It Happen On Purpose").
• Individuals within the U.S. government orchestrated the attacks themselves. This group can be referred to as MIHOP ("Make It Happen On Purpose").
• Individuals within the government of Israel or Iraq were behind the attacks.
http://www.answers.com/topic/9-11-conspiracy-theories


Before the sun had set on the evening of September 11, competing theories in opposition to the latest press reports were being developed to explain what had occurred. A history of events began to emerge from the mainstream press, further known in this article as the common account or official story. For each event that transpired that Tuesday, there has arisen an alternate view.
http://www.answers.com/topic/9-11-conspiracy-theories


For your information the “common account” is the “official conspiracy theory”. I wounder if Ron is going to ask you to stop posting “pure BS”. You sure are not helping him.

Moron, these links prove it's YOU who have the conspiracy theories as Ron pointed out. Just look at the URL.

You just BLURT shiit out don't you...
OpelGT73
QUOTE (Christophera+Mar 9 2006, 05:26 PM)
True gypsum will block the light, but it won't reflect it very well and we see a fairly brilliant shimmer in the vertical line of light in WTC 1. Concrete which has been formed with steel forms can be very smooth and reflective. I've blinded by it a few times.

I thought I posed this before but maybe not:

Anyway IF there was a concrete core it would have been painted or at least covered in gypsum board that would then be painted or covered in wall covering. BTW - If a concrete wall (or core as you suggest) is to be a finished product (i.e. not wrapped in gypsum board) it will be covered in a thin sheet of plaster much like gypsum board before it is painted. Therefore a gypsum board wall and a concrete wall will look virtually identical. The ONLY thing that would cause the supposed "brilliant shimmer" would be the sheen of the paint applied to it.
Commen sense
QUOTE (Mel_Guest+Mar 9 2006, 06:02 PM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 9 2006, 04:31 PM)
If anyone wants see how easy it is to fly a 767 into a building just buy Microsoft Flight Simulator...

User posted image

User posted image

The flight dynamics are very true to life. A good feedback yoke and rutter controller and you to can be a terrorist.

Once in flight it's just point and pray.

Or, buy MS Combat Flight Simulator, fly over a civilian population and drop bombs. You too can be a terrorist.

Actually you could be America too.
Commen sense
QUOTE (Foxx+Mar 9 2006, 06:27 PM)
I was wrong about the mechanical floor being the 78th. I am so ashamed to admit that I ...pope Foxx... could be wrong about something,...biggrin.gif,  but I'm afraid arthur has correctly pointed out that the mechanical floors were the 75th & 76th.

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/v...stc_frames.html

Now, arthur... how does this previous error on my part change the essence of what I said?

The explosion which occured below the fire and impact floors does not jive with the official story. There were no 'raging infernos' on the 77th floor to set off oxygen tanks or transformers.

Here is the computer sim 'model' for the 78th floor in the south tower...

User posted image

http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/comsim003.jpg

So from this floor down the entire building was essentially as strong as the day it had been built. According to the official theory there were no structural damages nor fires on this floor. According to the computer sim model there was no heat affecting that floor or the ones below.

Here again is the quote from NIST that I pointed out...

QUOTE

From the NIST documents

The video shot from the WTC plaza captured an intriguing event at 9:37:04 am. A jet of air, dust, and a large piece of debris was ejected from a window, 77-335 on the 77th floor at an extremely high velocity.


Regardless of my error on the mechanical floor number... this intriguing event clearly indicates an explosive event happening on the 77th floor which was BELOW the fire floors. This does not fit the official theory, but is completely supportive of the explosives theory.

Note that this one particular event was about twenty minutes before the initiation of collapse.

Note also, that it was not the only anomalous "puff-of smoke / debris" occuring prior to the 'collapse'....

QUOTE (->
QUOTE

From the NIST documents

The video shot from the WTC plaza captured an intriguing event at 9:37:04 am. A jet of air, dust, and a large piece of debris was ejected from a window, 77-335 on the 77th floor at an extremely high velocity.


Regardless of my error on the mechanical floor number... this intriguing event clearly indicates an explosive event happening on the 77th floor which was BELOW the fire floors. This does not fit the official theory, but is completely supportive of the explosives theory.

Note that this one particular event was about twenty minutes before the initiation of collapse.

Note also, that it was not the only anomalous "puff-of smoke / debris" occuring prior to the 'collapse'....


"Just before 9:52 am, puffs of smoke and/or dust were expelled from multiple locations on the north face near the east edge. Almost immediately a bright spot appeared at the top of a window on the 80th floor, four removed from the east edge, and a glowing liquid began to pour from this location."


Well, golly gee, elmer - that certainly matches the description of an incendiary (thermate) bomb to me - the puffs being the 'squibb' which set off the incendiary charge and 'almost immediately' a glowing liquid begins to pour from the spot.

QUOTE

Many such liquid flows were observed from near this location prior to the collapse of the tower. Several were accompanied by puffs of dust and smoke that were now occuring frequently.


User posted image

http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/002thermNF942.jpg

QUOTE (->
QUOTE

Many such liquid flows were observed from near this location prior to the collapse of the tower. Several were accompanied by puffs of dust and smoke that were now occuring frequently.


User posted image

http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/002thermNF942.jpg


Additional unusual behaviours observed for WTC 2 included the correlated smoke puffs observed over large areas of the facade and the roughly one-minute periods during which the smoke flows increased dramatically, often accompanied by external flames... At least 65 occurrences of smoke puffs were documented along with 7 times when the one-minute long smoke releases took place.


Gee... almost sounds like what some conspiracy theorist would write about explosions leading to the collapse... but these quotes are taken directly from the NIST report.

This strikes me as blatant evidence of the emperors-nice-new-clothes syndrome. NIST calmly documents all these occurrences, then claims... we have seen no evidence of explosions.

What the hell do you call the above descriptions?

If we weren't discussing the twin towers, I seriously doubt that anyone on this forum or in the population at large would consider these OTHER THAN descriptions of explosions.

It reminds me of that guy who came up with the theory that the Sphinx was eroded by rainfall.

When he showed pictures of the Sphinx to geologists they would have all kinds of excuses to 'deny', yet when he masked off the head, so that it just looked like a rock outcropping, every geologist agreed the erosion pattern was from water - not sand. That is the power of the emperors-new-clothes syndrome. The manipulation of group-think.

Here is what I have got copied so far related to these PRE-OCCURRING 'puffs-of smoke' (as you people prefer to call them), rather than the obvious 'squibbs' that they are... (I've got about 15 more pages to add and then I'll co-relate all these ocurrences with the photo-record)...

http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/moltnist.html

For years, you people have been saying these squibbs were just dust ejections from the piston squishing air out of the cylinder... but that just doesn't wash, when they are ocurring BEFORE the collapse and leading to circumstances where molten metal begins to pour from columns.

The NIST NEVER SAD THERE WAS MUCH FIRE ON THE 78TH FLOOR...

User posted image

http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/east10.jpg

User posted image

http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/fire.h1.jpg

I have to use large fonts because I want to make sure everyone saw this straw man. Heh!

http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/fire.htm

It's the floors above which unquestionably had "RAGING FIRES"
newton
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 9 2006, 08:36 PM)
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 9 2006, 08:25 PM)
Someone remembers Julius Sumner Miller.  smile.gif  Now there's a guy who looked like a real mad scientist. smile.gif


Hehehe. Hi shagster. He was a great (and entertaining) teacher-lecturer with a great 'hook' to captivate his (mainly young) audience. A true 'Vaudevilian' showman! Cheers, mate.

RC.
.

if magnus pike and julius sumner miller were put into a particle accelerator, which would be blinded by science first?
Commen sense
Foxx is a clear example why over 500 pages and still not one previous physorg member has moved over to the CT side. His misleading posts are clearly blatant.

Pathetic!
newton
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 9 2006, 09:11 PM)
Foxx is a clear example why over 500 pages and still not one previous physorg member has moved over to the CT side. His misleading posts are clearly blatant.

Pathetic!

misdirection. the non-conspiracy crew of a few guys has failed to convince the MANY 'CTers' of anything but their genuine interest in misdirection, obfuscation, insults, miraculous coincidence, rampant incompetence and wild speculation.

cheers, mr. oh-so-subtle.

Commen sense
QUOTE (Foxx+Mar 9 2006, 07:46 PM)
QUOTE
Originally posted by the Schneiby


You morons don't even know what building this is from. Building 1,2,3,4,5,6,7??? This photo was posted along side photos from the whole area around ground 0! Heh! What complete and utter idiots! HAHAHA!!!

user posted image



When reason eludes you, and you can't think of anything to say... try the above...

Use 14 pt bolded text insults. That'll be convincing.

The photo was from ground zero. It really matters not from which building it was beneath. I guess it's time to refresh dingbats memory that the wtc was built within a pit...

and from within this pit were USGS readings which confirm the testimony of witnesses that there was highly anomalous thermal activity ocurring for months after the collapse - a situation never recorded before in history...

user posted image

user posted image

http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2001/ofr-01-0429/thermal.r09.html

Testimony of witnesses...

http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2005/...etal-under.html

But... this does not fit the conspiracy theory of these tin-hats, so they prefer to just dismiss these facts in favor of their comfortable fairy tale.

Rather than input any intelligent discourse... it is always more convincing to cast insults in 14 pt bolded text.

Thanks for your objective scientific input on the question. Carry on with your 'interventions'... the rest of us are getting quite a giggle out of your Yosemite Sam impersonation.


biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif


BTW - thanks arthur for your non-response reply. The 'official story' of the courtiers WAS that the emperor had a nice new set of clothes too.

"Look, don't you think he looks nice parading down the street - we have brought him out for you all to see".

A person does not need to resort to 'conspiracy sites' to refute the official fairy tale. The proof is contained in their own nonsensical tale. But you enjoy that nice display the courtiers have set out before you.

Sorry if I hurt your feeling but you are a moron. You don't know anything at all about the above piece yet you create an illustion that it actually means something. NEWS FLASH! It doesn't, moron.

Don't want me to call you a moron? Stop giving me reason to. That was a moronic post.
Mel_Guest
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 9 2006, 08:58 PM)
QUOTE (Mel_Guest+Mar 9 2006, 06:02 PM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 9 2006, 04:31 PM)
If anyone wants see how easy it is to fly a 767 into a building just buy Microsoft Flight Simulator...

User posted image

User posted image

The flight dynamics are very true to life. A good feedback yoke and rutter controller and you to can be a terrorist.

Once in flight it's just point and pray.

Or, buy MS Combat Flight Simulator, fly over a civilian population and drop bombs. You too can be a terrorist.

Actually you could be America too.

Same difference.
Commen sense
QUOTE (newton+Mar 9 2006, 09:18 PM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 9 2006, 09:11 PM)
Foxx is a clear example why over 500 pages and still not one previous physorg member has moved over to the CT side. His misleading posts are clearly blatant.

Pathetic!

misdirection. the non-conspiracy crew of a few guys has failed to convince the MANY 'CTers' of anything but their genuine interest in misdirection, obfuscation, insults, miraculous coincidence, rampant incompetence and wild speculation.

cheers, mr. oh-so-subtle.

Funny, I just got an E-mail from a person who was on the fence thanking me for clearing some things up.

QUOTE
Hi Common Sense,

Thanks for helping with the answers to the questions I posted, appreciate your time and effort.

I seem to have gone the full 360 with the WTC collapses, after the event I saw a very good TV documentary which was basically the NIST report and I adhered to that view.

However, over time I got sucked into the TOTAL CT thang which included the WTC controlled demolition, now I am back on the path of fire related structurall failure. But I do still adhere to the idea of governments within governments and a certain amount of complicity surrounding the attacks on 9/11. Thats why I am keen to seperate the politics from the physics regarding the collapses.

I agree Bush is an idiot, what worries me is who pulls this idiots strings (Rumsfield, Cheney, AIPAC?) but thats a different arena.

Thanks to you and all who have contibuted to this thread...it has helped to sort fact from fiction.......


I wont tell you who it is unless he gives me the OK.

It seems you can't be right about ANYTHING! Heh!
Foxx
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 9 2006, 09:25 PM)
QUOTE (newton+Mar 9 2006, 09:18 PM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 9 2006, 09:11 PM)
Foxx is a clear example why over 500 pages and still not one previous physorg member has moved over to the CT side. His misleading posts are clearly blatant.

Pathetic!

misdirection. the non-conspiracy crew of a few guys has failed to convince the MANY 'CTers' of anything but their genuine interest in misdirection, obfuscation, insults, miraculous coincidence, rampant incompetence and wild speculation.

cheers, mr. oh-so-subtle.

Funny, I just got an E-mail from a person who was on the fence thanking me for clearing some things up.

QUOTE
Hi Common Sense,

Thanks for helping with the answers to the questions I posted, appreciate your time and effort.

I seem to have gone the full 360 with the WTC collapses, after the event I saw a very good TV documentary which was basically the NIST report and I adhered to that view.

However, over time I got sucked into the TOTAL CT thang which included the WTC controlled demolition, now I am back on the path of fire related structurall failure. But I do still adhere to the idea of governments within governments and a certain amount of complicity surrounding the attacks on 9/11. Thats why I am keen to seperate the politics from the physics regarding the collapses.

I agree Bush is an idiot, what worries me is who pulls this idiots strings (Rumsfield, Cheney, AIPAC?) but thats a different arena.

Thanks to you and all who have contibuted to this thread...it has helped to sort fact from fiction.......


I wont tell you who it is unless he gives me the OK.

It seems you can't be right about ANYTHING! Heh!

Gee, now he's even E-mailing himself biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

I just sent the photo off to Steven Jones to get his opinion. It may be nothing at all. Then again it could be a photo of slag from the rivers of molten metal. Either way, I think I will respect his opinion more that some psycho who needs an army of puppets to convince himself he's on the right track. biggrin.gif


Foxx
QUOTE
by Schneiby
and still not one previous physorg member has moved over to the CT side.


Oooooooo, all two of them, one who's a "scientist", and the other, your side-kick adou-baba.... very sad.

What a complete failure I have been in not being able to wake up people who are pretending to be asleep.



RealityCheck
QUOTE (newton+Mar 9 2006, 09:18 PM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 9 2006, 09:11 PM)
Foxx is a clear example why over 500 pages and still not one previous physorg member has moved over to the CT side. His misleading posts are clearly blatant.

Pathetic!

misdirection. the non-conspiracy crew of a few guys has failed to convince the MANY 'CTers' of anything but their genuine interest in misdirection, obfuscation, insults, miraculous coincidence, rampant incompetence and wild speculation.

cheers, mr. oh-so-subtle.


Hi newt. Come on now, mate, be the fair commentator you profess to be.

Since when have any here tried to convince you of anything regarding the physics of the collapses?

Remember, it is YOU and others who make all the assertions and ask for 'Basic Physics' hypotheses/observations.

In fact, it is YOU and other CD CTers who come here trying to 'convert/convince' people to believe your assertions/beliefs, not the other way round. We merely point to the physics and leave it at that. What YOU make of it is your concern....no-one here cares one way or the other what YOU believe...only what you are asserting....to which debating ettiquette demands a reply as to the physics involved.

Fair comment?

RC.
.
RealityCheck
QUOTE (Foxx+Mar 9 2006, 09:52 PM)
QUOTE
by Schneiby
and still not one previous physorg member has moved over to the CT side.


Oooooooo, all two of them, one who's a "scientist", and the other, your side-kick adou-baba.... very sad.

What a complete failure I have been in not being able to wake up people who are pretending to be asleep.


Hi Foxx. You forget all those 'viewers only' that can judge for themselves what is going on, and so may decide not to get involved in what some would call a 'waste of time' thread. But I for one don't see it as a waste of time if those viewers are provided with 'counter-arguments' to help them 'balance' and judge the merits or otherwise of your assertions/contentions.

And obviously, it only takes a 'few' of us at physorg (no need for a 'regiment of regulars' when a few will do, heh?) to show that your assertions/contentions are not as 'iron clad' and 'irrefutable' as you would have people here believe. Your above comment is a case in point: in that you again failed to take into account 'passive judgements' made by the many in Physorg who obviously are NOT convinced/converted by your presentations so far....or else they WOULD have 'jumped in' on your 'side'....wouldn't they? It is this habit of 'conveniently ignoring' the reasonably obvious when making your comments/assertions, just because it IS 'expedient', that let's your 'side' down very badly.

PS:....about those squibs you're going on about again. I thought we both agreed a while back (based on information YOU actually posted) that there was PLENTY of 'localised' sectional collapses and movement/re-arrangement INTERNALLY due to 'imminent-collapse 'buckling of both floors and columns....all of which resulted in much 'falling through/down' ONTO LOWER FLOORS from the fire ravaged floors that 'separated/sagged' from the outer walls and so allowed much accumulated ash/debris, office equipment and sections of concrete flooring etc to fall and create such localised 'puffs', expulsions, and spillovers etc. What's all this 'new' to-do' all about, if the INSIDES were in the process of failing completely as final collapse was approaching?

RC.
.
Commen sense
QUOTE (Foxx+Mar 9 2006, 09:38 PM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 9 2006, 09:25 PM)
QUOTE (newton+Mar 9 2006, 09:18 PM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 9 2006, 09:11 PM)
Foxx is a clear example why over 500 pages and still not one previous physorg member has moved over to the CT side. His misleading posts are clearly blatant.

Pathetic!

misdirection. the non-conspiracy crew of a few guys has failed to convince the MANY 'CTers' of anything but their genuine interest in misdirection, obfuscation, insults, miraculous coincidence, rampant incompetence and wild speculation.

cheers, mr. oh-so-subtle.

Funny, I just got an E-mail from a person who was on the fence thanking me for clearing some things up.

QUOTE
Hi Common Sense,

Thanks for helping with the answers to the questions I posted, appreciate your time and effort.

I seem to have gone the full 360 with the WTC collapses, after the event I saw a very good TV documentary which was basically the NIST report and I adhered to that view.

However, over time I got sucked into the TOTAL CT thang which included the WTC controlled demolition, now I am back on the path of fire related structurall failure. But I do still adhere to the idea of governments within governments and a certain amount of complicity surrounding the attacks on 9/11. Thats why I am keen to seperate the politics from the physics regarding the collapses.

I agree Bush is an idiot, what worries me is who pulls this idiots strings (Rumsfield, Cheney, AIPAC?) but thats a different arena.

Thanks to you and all who have contibuted to this thread...it has helped to sort fact from fiction.......


I wont tell you who it is unless he gives me the OK.

It seems you can't be right about ANYTHING! Heh!

Gee, now he's even E-mailing himself biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

I just sent the photo off to Steven Jones to get his opinion. It may be nothing at all. Then again it could be a photo of slag from the rivers of molten metal. Either way, I think I will respect his opinion more that some psycho who needs an army of puppets to convince himself he's on the right track. biggrin.gif

It just goes to show how backward your "Analyses" work-flow is. First post the picture, then find out if it's relevant. Heh!

This guys perfect for you metamars. Hes going to do the same thing the guy who gave Jones the "White blobs" photo did for the paper. AMASING!
Commen sense
QUOTE (ObFoxxcator+Mar 9 2006, 09:52 PM)
QUOTE
by Schneiby
and still not one previous physorg member has moved over to the CT side.


Oooooooo, all two of them, one who's a "scientist", and the other, your side-kick adou-baba.... very sad.

What a complete failure I have been in not being able to wake up people who are pretending to be asleep.

Contrast those two with NONE OF YOURS! HAHAHA!!! 500 pages!!! What a riot! laugh.gif

[Correction, 2 Schneibster came after the thread started. I wont count him to be fair. Heh!]
frater plecticus
Dubai Firm to Give Up Stake in U.S. Ports
QUOTE
WASHINGTON - Bowing to ferocious opposition in Congress, a Dubai-owned company signaled surrender Thursday in its quest to take over operations at U.S. ports.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
WASHINGTON - Bowing to ferocious opposition in Congress, a Dubai-owned company signaled surrender Thursday in its quest to take over operations at U.S. ports.

But that portion of the deal set off a political chain of events unlike any other in Bush's five years in office. Republicans denounced the deal, saying they were worried about the effects it would have on efforts to make ports safer from terrorist threats. Democrats did likewise, and capitalized on the issue as well as a way to narrow the polling gap with the GOP on issues of national security.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060309/ap_on_.../ports_security

BBC is reporting that Bush's "popularity" rating has reached an all time low. (35%)

Can we expect..

a. an assassination attempt on bush ?
b. a "terrorist" attack
c. none of the above
d. all of the above
shagster
That bill in the house was tied to the spending for the Iraq war. I suspect the Bush administration told DP to forget about the deal after that.
Commen sense
QUOTE (frater plecticus+Mar 9 2006, 11:03 PM)
Dubai Firm to Give Up Stake in U.S. Ports
QUOTE
WASHINGTON - Bowing to ferocious opposition in Congress, a Dubai-owned company signaled surrender Thursday in its quest to take over operations at U.S. ports.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
WASHINGTON - Bowing to ferocious opposition in Congress, a Dubai-owned company signaled surrender Thursday in its quest to take over operations at U.S. ports.

But that portion of the deal set off a political chain of events unlike any other in Bush's five years in office. Republicans denounced the deal, saying they were worried about the effects it would have on efforts to make ports safer from terrorist threats. Democrats did likewise, and capitalized on the issue as well as a way to narrow the polling gap with the GOP on issues of national security.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060309/ap_on_.../ports_security

BBC is reporting that Bush's "popularity" rating has reached an all time low. (35%)

Can we expect..

a. an assassination attempt on bush ?
b. a "terrorist" attack
c. none of the above
d. all of the above

E: War with Iran
RealityCheck
QUOTE (frater plecticus+Mar 9 2006, 11:03 PM)
Dubai Firm to Give Up Stake in U.S. Ports
QUOTE
WASHINGTON - Bowing to ferocious opposition in Congress, a Dubai-owned company signaled surrender Thursday in its quest to take over operations at U.S. ports.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
WASHINGTON - Bowing to ferocious opposition in Congress, a Dubai-owned company signaled surrender Thursday in its quest to take over operations at U.S. ports.

But that portion of the deal set off a political chain of events unlike any other in Bush's five years in office. Republicans denounced the deal, saying they were worried about the effects it would have on efforts to make ports safer from terrorist threats. Democrats did likewise, and capitalized on the issue as well as a way to narrow the polling gap with the GOP on issues of national security.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060309/ap_on_.../ports_security

BBC is reporting that Bush's "popularity" rating has reached an all time low. (35%)

Can we expect..

a. an assassination attempt on bush ?
b. a "terrorist" attack
c. none of the above
d. all of the above



Hi frater! I don't want to add to the 'politics' content, I just got intrigued by the 'logic' element in your "option b" above. I have highlighted part of your post dealing with "popularity" on the 'national security' issue....and so I have to ask: Wouldn't a staged "terrorist" attack reflect even MORE BADLY on Bush's 'national security' "credentials"/"popularity"? "NO" successful terrorist attack would be BETTER for Bush, wouldn't it?....as it will allow him to claim that they "prevented" an attack, and so 'are doing a good job' on national security etc. That would bolster his credentials/popularity more on that score, heh? See what I mean about the 'logic' of that option b? Cheers fp!

RC.
.
Jamie?
QUOTE (JamesX+Mar 9 2006, 11:12 PM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 9 2006, 09:25 PM)

Funny, I just got an E-mail from a person who was on the fence thanking me for clearing some things up.


LOL Her name isn't Candy by any chance, is it?

Yeah, funny, the same 900 name your mother uses.
frater plecticus

RC, THANKS FOR THE COMMENT ABOUT E)IRAN

Regarding terrorist attacks/popularity...

In the weeks following 9/11, President Bush's popularity--which was languishing at around 50 percent in August 2001--soared to 90 percent. By mid-October 2001, support for Republicans in Congress--which was at just 37 percent in August--had shot up thirty points. After Republicans lost most major 2001 gubernatorial races to Democrats, GOP strategists realized that the key to electoral success was tapping into the post-9/11 fear of terrorism and focusing on security issues.
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20040927/legum

hasta manyana
reasonwhy
QUOTE (Ron+Mar 9 2006, 09:32 AM)
http://www.vandruff.com/conspire.html
" Conspiracy Theory - Intro and Overview
Conspiracy Theory is more than just the belief in an occasional conspiracy. Simply put, it is a belief system that asserts that world events are being controlled in secret by a group of ultra-powerful puppeteers behind the scenes. While nothing much can be done about this overall conspiracy, at least we can have the satisfaction of being smart enough to have figured it all out.
If viewed as fiction, Conspiracy Theory is compelling and fascinating. If it were just a nightmarish novel meant to be unnerving and just a bit beyond plausible, like Asimov's Foundation, that would be one thing. But Conspiracy Theory projects its fiction onto real-life people, families, groups, and organizations. It purports to actually be true... and this is the problem."

http://chronicle.com/free/v49/i34/34b01401.htm

"A small band of neoconservative (read, Jewish) defense intellectuals, led by the "mastermind," Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz (according to Michael Lind, writing in the New Statesman), has taken advantage of 9/11 to put their ideas over on an ignorant, inexperienced, and "easily manipulated" president (Eric Alterman in The Nation), his "elderly figurehead" Defense Secretary (as Lind put it), and the "dutiful servant of power" who is our secretary of state (Edward Said, London Review of Books).

Also, try this one to come up with some new ideas of your own instead of regurgitating other "reputable" sources , such as 911truth, scholars for 911, and any more of the well respected sources you guys quote.

http://www.cjnetworks.com/~cubsfan/old_conspiracy.html

Christians & Conspiracy Theories

A CALL TO REPENTANCE

Corinthians 10:5 (KJV) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.

http://www.vandruff.com/conspire.html

Ron,
I make it a point to separate conspiracies and religion (don’t want to offend anyone for their religious beliefs). I read your first reference and have nothing more to say to you.
newton
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 9 2006, 09:57 PM)
QUOTE (newton+Mar 9 2006, 09:18 PM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 9 2006, 09:11 PM)
Foxx is a clear example why over 500 pages and still not one previous physorg member has moved over to the CT side. His misleading posts are clearly blatant.

Pathetic!

misdirection. the non-conspiracy crew of a few guys has failed to convince the MANY 'CTers' of anything but their genuine interest in misdirection, obfuscation, insults, miraculous coincidence, rampant incompetence and wild speculation.

cheers, mr. oh-so-subtle.


Hi newt. Come on now, mate, be the fair commentator you profess to be.

Since when have any here tried to convince you of anything regarding the physics of the collapses?

Remember, it is YOU and others who make all the assertions and ask for 'Basic Physics' hypotheses/observations.

In fact, it is YOU and other CD CTers who come here trying to 'convert/convince' people to believe your assertions/beliefs, not the other way round. We merely point to the physics and leave it at that. What YOU make of it is your concern....no-one here cares one way or the other what YOU believe...only what you are asserting....to which debating ettiquette demands a reply as to the physics involved.

Fair comment?

RC.
.

debating etiquette? what a poor joke.

merely point to the physics and leave it at that. okay, THAT'S FUNNY!

i actually came here looking for more answers and lessons. which i got tons of from the good foxx, frater plecticus, gordon, metamars, mel, MMC, brian, et al.

i also got great lessons in extreme reaching and grasping at straws from the likes of you and shnibs.

tower seven ............freefall.
cap's impact, fully absorbed without budging the lower majority of the floors, therefore no more crushing mass.
no acceleration or decceleration in descents.
no stutter.
the spire falls at freefall or damn near, when it shouldn't have fallen at all.
here's another i've never mentioned. an aluminum tin can rips through steel columns, without the wings shearing off, or the tail shattering, and in fact, there is no visible decceleration of the plane as it 'butters' it's way into the building.
ultrafine dust made up of EVERYTHING that was in the towers.
visible explosions.
seismic signatures do not match collapse times.
explosions are recorded. soundwave energies do not match with seismic sigs OR claimed energy exchanges. (ie. increasing amounts of mass impacting lower floors should make a 'ramp up' soundwave)
disconnected floors cannot 'pull' on anything.
the floors are not a stack of boxes.
the elevators do not run from top to bottom.
there was reinforced concrete in the building.

i love how you guys can go from threatening to pleading in a heartbeat. it's cute.
and how you keep forgetting that those(above, which are jsut a smattering) are physics arguments.


adoucette
QUOTE (Foxx+Mar 9 2006, 06:27 PM)
I was wrong about the mechanical floor being the 78th. I am so ashamed to admit that I ...pope Foxx... could be wrong about something,...biggrin.gif,  but I'm afraid arthur has correctly pointed out that the mechanical floors were the 75th & 76th.

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/v...stc_frames.html

Now, arthur... how does this previous error on my part change the essence of what I said?

The explosion which occured below the fire and impact floors does not jive with the official story. There were no 'raging infernos' on the 77th floor to set off oxygen tanks or transformers.


QUOTE

From the NIST documents

The video shot from the WTC plaza captured an intriguing event at 9:37:04 am. A jet of air, dust, and a large piece of debris was ejected from a window, 77-335 on the 77th floor at an extremely high velocity.


Regardless of my error on the mechanical floor number... this intriguing event clearly indicates an explosive event happening on the 77th floor which was BELOW the fire floors. This does not fit the official theory, but is completely supportive of the explosives theory.


But by screwing up (after 4 years not knowing????) which floor was the mech floor, what you ALSO screwed up on was that the 77th floor would have been the BOTTOM floor for the ELEVATOR SHAFTS that ran up to the fire floors.

No chance of anything falling down said shafts???

You know,

FIRE
V
V
V
V
V
V
BOOM

?

How about an elevator letting go?

Hmmmm?

Your imagination though seems STUCK on HIGH EXPLOSIVES

Even though only one HIGH VELOCITY projectile was seen

But there were those 65 PUFFS of smoke.

And you know what they say

"Where there's PUFFS, there's Squibs"

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Arthur
RealityCheck
QUOTE (frater plecticus+Mar 9 2006, 11:30 PM)
RC, THANKS FOR THE COMMENT ABOUT E)IRAN

Regarding terrorist attacks/popularity...

In the weeks following 9/11, President Bush's popularity--which was languishing at around 50 percent in August 2001--soared to 90 percent. By mid-October 2001, support for Republicans in Congress--which was at just 37 percent in August--had shot up thirty points. After Republicans lost most major 2001 gubernatorial races to Democrats, GOP strategists realized that the key to electoral success was tapping into the post-9/11 fear of terrorism and focusing on security issues.
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20040927/legum

hasta manyana


That "E. option" was from CS, mate. Thank him, hehehe.

About that "terror"/'popularity' thing. You missed the point. Bush is NOW 'unpopular' because of (among other things) the national security 'debacle' with the Ports thing. If there is NOW another terrorist attack, that will CONFIRM that Bush is NOT 'good' on national security. That's what I was getting at. It is the CURRENT 'political climate' re national security and his apparent inability to see that that Dubai/Ports thing was riddled with national INsecurity implications. See?

RC.
.
adoucette
QUOTE (newton+Mar 9 2006, 07:33 PM)
here's another i've never mentioned.  an aluminum tin can rips through steel columns, without the wings shearing off, or the tail shattering, and in fact, there is no visible decceleration of the plane as it 'butters' it's way into the building.

So UN-newton, are you now claiming that the plane crash was FAKE????

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Arthur
Commen sense
QUOTE (frater plecticus+Mar 9 2006, 11:30 PM)
RC, THANKS FOR THE COMMENT ABOUT E)IRAN

Regarding terrorist attacks/popularity...

In the weeks following 9/11, President Bush's popularity--which was languishing at around 50 percent in August 2001--soared to 90 percent. By mid-October 2001, support for Republicans in Congress--which was at just 37 percent in August--had shot up thirty points. After Republicans lost most major 2001 gubernatorial races to Democrats, GOP strategists realized that the key to electoral success was tapping into the post-9/11 fear of terrorism and focusing on security issues.
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20040927/legum

hasta manyana

err... that was me...
Christophera
QUOTE (Foxx+Mar 9 2006, 05:03 AM)
The NIST page which gives dimensions and locations of central core columns.

Of course, I am a little skeptical of this myself in view of the fact that they do NOT show the massive 1 ft x 3 ft columns which we know from photos existed. One needs to study the general arrangement carefully because (according to NIST) the interior core columns changed, dependant upon floor.

http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/core_untitled3.html

Re: arthurs request for data on the mechanical floor construction...

What... I thought you read the report. They were massive i beams welded to the spandrels of the exterior tree sections. And the exterior trees were NOT staggered as in the photo you show ON THE MECHANICAL FLOORS.

On the mechanical floors all the trees were in line. That entire floor throughout the full width of the building was one big solidly welded framework - absolutely NOTHING like the silly truss floors you Cters keep harping about.



You scepticism is well founded. The page,

http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/core_untitled3.html

and its images bear no resembelence to columns at ground zero.

User posted image
User posted image
User posted image

What we see are box columns not "I" beam columns and none are inside the core perimeter.

I remember from the 1990 documentary that the 41st floor had a great deal of concrete and steel. It housed the main elevator motors and reels. The crane platform,

User posted image
http://algoxy.com/psych/images/WTC.overhea...ils-columns.gif

The crane platform is more visible in the below image.

User posted image
http://algoxy.com/psych/images/interiorboxcolumnsarrow.jpg

had to be dismantled sent to the ground at the 38th floor and all the concrete of the core and of the mechanical floor had to be formed by hand to the 43rd. The steel inner form could only be used with cranes. The construction slowed big time.
frater plecticus
QUOTE
How could two large wide-bodied aluminum jetliners penetrate massive steel towers and disappear with no deceleration visible, no plane wreckage visible in gashes and none knocked to the ground below the impact zone?

Expressed another way, no confirmed debris exists from two alleged 767 high-speed crashes into skyscrapers within 17 minutes of each other, a stunning lack of evidence to support the official 767 theory. Given long experience with airplane crashes, it is difficult if not impossible to accept the proposition that a wide-body jetliner can smash into a dense steel-concrete tower and disappear virtually without a trace, much less do it twice within 17 minutes in the same city block. Yet the NIST (pdf pg 38) states about the south tower, “the aircraft completely disappeared into the building in a fifth of a second.”

Tower walls were composed of high-strength steel beams approximately 14 inches square on one-meter centers (39.37”) surrounding windows with each column beam secured to others by steel spandrel plates about 52 inches x 10 feet forming a belt around each floor (see p. 8 pdf). Steel beam thicknesses varied from 4” at the base and tapered from 5/8” to ¼” in the WTC 1 impact zone and 13/16” to ¼” in the WTC 2 impact zone. WTC floors were grids of steel topped by four inches of steel reinforced lightweight concrete in corrugated steel pans. Walls effectively were dense webs of nearly 40% steel covered by aluminum and backed by steel and concrete floor grids mated to an incredibly strong and dense core of 47 cross-braced steel columns, stairwells and elevator shafts.


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
How could two large wide-bodied aluminum jetliners penetrate massive steel towers and disappear with no deceleration visible, no plane wreckage visible in gashes and none knocked to the ground below the impact zone?

Expressed another way, no confirmed debris exists from two alleged 767 high-speed crashes into skyscrapers within 17 minutes of each other, a stunning lack of evidence to support the official 767 theory. Given long experience with airplane crashes, it is difficult if not impossible to accept the proposition that a wide-body jetliner can smash into a dense steel-concrete tower and disappear virtually without a trace, much less do it twice within 17 minutes in the same city block. Yet the NIST (pdf pg 38) states about the south tower, “the aircraft completely disappeared into the building in a fifth of a second.”

Tower walls were composed of high-strength steel beams approximately 14 inches square on one-meter centers (39.37”) surrounding windows with each column beam secured to others by steel spandrel plates about 52 inches x 10 feet forming a belt around each floor (see p. 8 pdf). Steel beam thicknesses varied from 4” at the base and tapered from 5/8” to ¼” in the WTC 1 impact zone and 13/16” to ¼” in the WTC 2 impact zone. WTC floors were grids of steel topped by four inches of steel reinforced lightweight concrete in corrugated steel pans. Walls effectively were dense webs of nearly 40% steel covered by aluminum and backed by steel and concrete floor grids mated to an incredibly strong and dense core of 47 cross-braced steel columns, stairwells and elevator shafts.


In a violent encounter between an aluminum plane weighing nearly 140 tons and a steel tower weighing 500,000 tons, the plane, of course, would be crushed. Aluminum has lower yield and failure strengths than steel and a Boeing 767 mass was a minuscule—to use Hoffman’s term—three hundredths of one percent of each tower’s mass. “The impact did nothing,” as UC Berkeley structural engineer A. Astaneh-Asl said, “the airplane did not do much damage.” Like a pin into skin or a person falling through the ice on a lake, a 140-ton airplane flying at over 400 mph could inflict local damage without damaging the structure globally. In particular, the engines themselves thrusting along full throttle at approximately 450-550 mph obviously could penetrate a steel tower, even fly through it. But whatever blew each gash in the towers, only 13% or less of the upper perimeter columns on a few floors were broken and the upper structure of the towers remained intact.
ScottS.
QUOTE (frater plecticus+Mar 9 2006, 11:53 PM)
QUOTE
How could two large wide-bodied aluminum jetliners penetrate massive steel towers and disappear with no deceleration visible, no plane wreckage visible in gashes and none knocked to the ground below the impact zone?

Expressed another way, no confirmed debris exists from two alleged 767 high-speed crashes into skyscrapers within 17 minutes of each other, a stunning lack of evidence to support the official 767 theory. Given long experience with airplane crashes, it is difficult if not impossible to accept the proposition that a wide-body jetliner can smash into a dense steel-concrete tower and disappear virtually without a trace, much less do it twice within 17 minutes in the same city block. Yet the NIST (pdf pg 38) states about the south tower, “the aircraft completely disappeared into the building in a fifth of a second.”

Tower walls were composed of high-strength steel beams approximately 14 inches square on one-meter centers (39.37”) surrounding windows with each column beam secured to others by steel spandrel plates about 52 inches x 10 feet forming a belt around each floor (see p. 8 pdf). Steel beam thicknesses varied from 4” at the base and tapered from 5/8” to ¼” in the WTC 1 impact zone and 13/16” to ¼” in the WTC 2 impact zone. WTC floors were grids of steel topped by four inches of steel reinforced lightweight concrete in corrugated steel pans. Walls effectively were dense webs of nearly 40% steel covered by aluminum and backed by steel and concrete floor grids mated to an incredibly strong and dense core of 47 cross-braced steel columns, stairwells and elevator shafts.


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
How could two large wide-bodied aluminum jetliners penetrate massive steel towers and disappear with no deceleration visible, no plane wreckage visible in gashes and none knocked to the ground below the impact zone?

Expressed another way, no confirmed debris exists from two alleged 767 high-speed crashes into skyscrapers within 17 minutes of each other, a stunning lack of evidence to support the official 767 theory. Given long experience with airplane crashes, it is difficult if not impossible to accept the proposition that a wide-body jetliner can smash into a dense steel-concrete tower and disappear virtually without a trace, much less do it twice within 17 minutes in the same city block. Yet the NIST (pdf pg 38) states about the south tower, “the aircraft completely disappeared into the building in a fifth of a second.”

Tower walls were composed of high-strength steel beams approximately 14 inches square on one-meter centers (39.37”) surrounding windows with each column beam secured to others by steel spandrel plates about 52 inches x 10 feet forming a belt around each floor (see p. 8 pdf). Steel beam thicknesses varied from 4” at the base and tapered from 5/8” to ¼” in the WTC 1 impact zone and 13/16” to ¼” in the WTC 2 impact zone. WTC floors were grids of steel topped by four inches of steel reinforced lightweight concrete in corrugated steel pans. Walls effectively were dense webs of nearly 40% steel covered by aluminum and backed by steel and concrete floor grids mated to an incredibly strong and dense core of 47 cross-braced steel columns, stairwells and elevator shafts.


In a violent encounter between an aluminum plane weighing nearly 140 tons and a steel tower weighing 500,000 tons, the plane, of course, would be crushed. Aluminum has lower yield and failure strengths than steel and a Boeing 767 mass was a minuscule—to use Hoffman’s term—three hundredths of one percent of each tower’s mass. “The impact did nothing,” as UC Berkeley structural engineer A. Astaneh-Asl said, “the airplane did not do much damage.” Like a pin into skin or a person falling through the ice on a lake, a 140-ton airplane flying at over 400 mph could inflict local damage without damaging the structure globally. In particular, the engines themselves thrusting along full throttle at approximately 450-550 mph obviously could penetrate a steel tower, even fly through it. But whatever blew each gash in the towers, only 13% or less of the upper perimeter columns on a few floors were broken and the upper structure of the towers remained intact.


http://nomoregames.net/index.php?page=911&...1=we_have_holes

I'm curious, do we have any "NO plane" theorists here?
RealityCheck
QUOTE (newton+Mar 9 2006, 11:33 PM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 9 2006, 09:57 PM)
QUOTE (newton+Mar 9 2006, 09:18 PM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 9 2006, 09:11 PM)
Foxx is a clear example why over 500 pages and still not one previous physorg member has moved over to the CT side. His misleading posts are clearly blatant.

Pathetic!

misdirection. the non-conspiracy crew of a few guys has failed to convince the MANY 'CTers' of anything but their genuine interest in misdirection, obfuscation, insults, miraculous coincidence, rampant incompetence and wild speculation.

cheers, mr. oh-so-subtle.


Hi newt. Come on now, mate, be the fair commentator you profess to be.

Since when have any here tried to convince you of anything regarding the physics of the collapses?

Remember, it is YOU and others who make all the assertions and ask for 'Basic Physics' hypotheses/observations.

In fact, it is YOU and other CD CTers who come here trying to 'convert/convince' people to believe your assertions/beliefs, not the other way round. We merely point to the physics and leave it at that. What YOU make of it is your concern....no-one here cares one way or the other what YOU believe...only what you are asserting....to which debating ettiquette demands a reply as to the physics involved.

Fair comment?

RC.
.

debating etiquette? what a poor joke.

merely point to the physics and leave it at that. okay, THAT'S FUNNY!

i actually came here looking for more answers and lessons. which i got tons of from the good foxx, frater plecticus, gordon, metamars, mel, MMC, brian, et al.

i also got great lessons in extreme reaching and grasping at straws from the likes of you and shnibs.

tower seven ............freefall.
cap's impact, fully absorbed without budging the lower majority of the floors, therefore no more crushing mass.
no acceleration or decceleration in descents.
no stutter.
the spire falls at freefall or damn near, when it shouldn't have fallen at all.
here's another i've never mentioned. an aluminum tin can rips through steel columns, without the wings shearing off, or the tail shattering, and in fact, there is no visible decceleration of the plane as it 'butters' it's way into the building.
ultrafine dust made up of EVERYTHING that was in the towers.
visible explosions.
seismic signatures do not match collapse times.
explosions are recorded. soundwave energies do not match with seismic sigs OR claimed energy exchanges. (ie. increasing amounts of mass impacting lower floors should make a 'ramp up' soundwave)
disconnected floors cannot 'pull' on anything.
the floors are not a stack of boxes.
the elevators do not run from top to bottom.
there was reinforced concrete in the building.

i love how you guys can go from threatening to pleading in a heartbeat. it's cute.
and how you keep forgetting that those(above, which are jsut a smattering) are physics arguments.


Hi-ho happy-camper! Newt, you must have missed where ALL those assertions/contentions (unsupported by consistent physics arguments) have been countered WITH physics arguments which anyone on your 'side' has STILL to properly refute with physics arguments of your own. Why don't you go back to where Schneibster puts paid to 'freefall'. Still not refuted. Go back to where metamars agrees that the falling column which took down the 'spire-supporting' column did so too quickly for the next 'frame' of the video camera to capture its progress downwards. And the rest on your list have been countered by prosaic physics/processes arguments as well....and in some cases even 'self-refuted' by information presented by the CTers themselves!....more than once.

I think you need to re-do that list to reflect reality, mate. There's nothing there that is consistent with the information presented so far.

But as always, the great silent majority at Physorg has been the judge. And guess what, not ONE has 'converted' to your 'beliefs' (and that's all they will remain, unless and until you have something better than 'repetition' and patent wishful-thinking to back up your assertions/contentions which are so readily 'falsified' by merely reading this thread).

Cheers! (...and I mean it, newt....no hard feelings; merely sad to see such a waste of potentially constructive intelligence on CT 'spectres'...without the least 'objective' evidence for them. If there WERE any such, I would be WITH YOUR 'side' in a flash).

RC.
.



adoucette
Picture of an Asbestos Tree.

Rare Species with leaves that can withstand a PYROCLASTIC FLOW

User posted image

laugh.gif laugh.gif

Arthur
Commen sense
QUOTE (frater plecticus+Mar 9 2006, 11:53 PM)
QUOTE
How could two large wide-bodied aluminum jetliners penetrate massive steel towers and disappear with no deceleration visible, no plane wreckage visible in gashes and none knocked to the ground below the impact zone?

Expressed another way, no confirmed debris exists from two alleged 767 high-speed crashes into skyscrapers within 17 minutes of each other, a stunning lack of evidence to support the official 767 theory. Given long experience with airplane crashes, it is difficult if not impossible to accept the proposition that a wide-body jetliner can smash into a dense steel-concrete tower and disappear virtually without a trace, much less do it twice within 17 minutes in the same city block. Yet the NIST (pdf pg 38) states about the south tower, “the aircraft completely disappeared into the building in a fifth of a second.”

Tower walls were composed of high-strength steel beams approximately 14 inches square on one-meter centers (39.37”) surrounding windows with each column beam secured to others by steel spandrel plates about 52 inches x 10 feet forming a belt around each floor (see p. 8 pdf). Steel beam thicknesses varied from 4” at the base and tapered from 5/8” to ¼” in the WTC 1 impact zone and 13/16” to ¼” in the WTC 2 impact zone. WTC floors were grids of steel topped by four inches of steel reinforced lightweight concrete in corrugated steel pans. Walls effectively were dense webs of nearly 40% steel covered by aluminum and backed by steel and concrete floor grids mated to an incredibly strong and dense core of 47 cross-braced steel columns, stairwells and elevator shafts.


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
How could two large wide-bodied aluminum jetliners penetrate massive steel towers and disappear with no deceleration visible, no plane wreckage visible in gashes and none knocked to the ground below the impact zone?

Expressed another way, no confirmed debris exists from two alleged 767 high-speed crashes into skyscrapers within 17 minutes of each other, a stunning lack of evidence to support the official 767 theory. Given long experience with airplane crashes, it is difficult if not impossible to accept the proposition that a wide-body jetliner can smash into a dense steel-concrete tower and disappear virtually without a trace, much less do it twice within 17 minutes in the same city block. Yet the NIST (pdf pg 38) states about the south tower, “the aircraft completely disappeared into the building in a fifth of a second.”

Tower walls were composed of high-strength steel beams approximately 14 inches square on one-meter centers (39.37”) surrounding windows with each column beam secured to others by steel spandrel plates about 52 inches x 10 feet forming a belt around each floor (see p. 8 pdf). Steel beam thicknesses varied from 4” at the base and tapered from 5/8” to ¼” in the WTC 1 impact zone and 13/16” to ¼” in the WTC 2 impact zone. WTC floors were grids of steel topped by four inches of steel reinforced lightweight concrete in corrugated steel pans. Walls effectively were dense webs of nearly 40% steel covered by aluminum and backed by steel and concrete floor grids mated to an incredibly strong and dense core of 47 cross-braced steel columns, stairwells and elevator shafts.


In a violent encounter between an aluminum plane weighing nearly 140 tons and a steel tower weighing 500,000 tons, the plane, of course, would be crushed. Aluminum has lower yield and failure strengths than steel and a Boeing 767 mass was a minuscule—to use Hoffman’s term—three hundredths of one percent of each tower’s mass. “The impact did nothing,” as UC Berkeley structural engineer A. Astaneh-Asl said, “the airplane did not do much damage.” Like a pin into skin or a person falling through the ice on a lake, a 140-ton airplane flying at over 400 mph could inflict local damage without damaging the structure globally. In particular, the engines themselves thrusting along full throttle at approximately 450-550 mph obviously could penetrate a steel tower, even fly through it. But whatever blew each gash in the towers, only 13% or less of the upper perimeter columns on a few floors were broken and the upper structure of the towers remained intact.


http://nomoregames.net/index.php?page=911&...1=we_have_holes

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user posted imageuser posted imageuser posted image

QUOTE
Feat of Forensic Engineering

    "Taken in the aggregate, it represents a milestone in the forensic engineering of a disaster." said Jeremy Isenberg, a member of the National Academy of Engineering and president of Weidlinger Associates, where some of the work was done, who believes the information can be used to build safer skyscrapers and to better understand the risks posed by existing ones.  "I have never seen this level of technical knowledge and experience brought to bear on a single problem."

    The mass of documents and analysis was complied over the last year by a kind of dream team of engineering experts as the two litigants weighed in on the question of how much Mr. Silverstein should be compensated for the loss of the towers.  Mr. Silverstein says that he is owned about $7 billion, the insurance companies half that.

    Both sides, recognizing the extraordinary public interest in what would normally be an esoteric insurance debate, say they always intended to make the work public, and agreed to discuss their findings.

    The Sept. 11 disaster began as two jetliners, each weighing more than 200,000 pounds with their fuel, cargo and doomed passengers, hurtled into the two towers and disappeared forever from the view of the outside world.

    But a powerful computer simulation led by Matthys Levy, an engineer and founding partner at Weidlinger Associates, has created a three-dimensional rendition of the mayhem that probably took place in less that a second before most of the plane fragments came to rest inside the towers.  The simulation created ultra-slow-motion movies, each frame separated from the next by less than a thousandth of a second, as the plane and the structure of the towers broke up.

    Although the simulation does not include the people who, tragically, were on the floors that were struck, the movies do hold new revelations about their immediate fate.

    The planes were moving at such great speeds -- up to 586 miles an hour in the south tower impact and almost 500 miles an hour in the north -- that the aluminum of their wings and fuselage and the steel of their engines passed through the perimeter steel columns of the towers almost without slowing down, the simulation shows.

    "It was able to go through the outer wall quite easily," Mr. Levy said.

    Once inside, the aluminum of the planes was hacked to pieces by the concrete slabs of the floors, which acted like great axes when struck from the side.  The heavier steel of the engines punched ahead until striking sturdy structural elements or plunging all the way through the building and soaring out the other side.  As the plane slowed, the concrete floors themselves were pulverized to dust.  Whole sections of the light steel support trusses that held up the floors -- a web of thin bars and steel strips -- were annihilated.
Shrapnel Compressed

    Surprisingly, though, most of the shrapnel created from the planes stayed in a relative confined path and was even compressed slightly.  seen from the side, the hail of debris formed a tapering cavity, like a worm burrowing into an apple, rather that exploding in all directions. This compression may explain why relatively few people were immediately hurt outside the floors of impact and why a handful of people on those very floors survived and escaped from the south tower.

    The mangled planes finally barreled into a forest of crucial structural columns in the cores of the buildings, the simulations show.  In both towers, the damage to those columns was severe -- so severe, in fact, that the simulations predict that the south tower should have, by this calculation  collapsed immediately.

    Mr. Levy conceded that the simulations do have some significant limitations. They take into account only the tower's structural steel and not the partitions and other contents of the offices inside, which must have absorbed some of the plane's impact.  So the estimated damage to the structure itself is an upper limit, "the worst thing that could happen in terms of the results,"  Mr. Lev said..

    John Osteraas, director of civil engineering practice at Exponent Failure Analysis who has been retained by the insurance companies, said that the incorrect result cast doubt on some of its predictions.

    But Mr. Levy, who is working for Mr. Silverstein's side of the suit, said he did not believe that the erroneous prediction of the south tower's collapse revealed any shortcoming in the computer work.  Rather, he said, it showed how close the tower came to falling even before the fires broke out.  Subtleties in the path of the plane, which the simulation may not have captured, could have been the difference, he said.

    Next, of course, came the fire.  By assembling thousands of photographs, videos and witness accounts, Richard L. P. Custer, the national technical director of ArupFire, a Massachusetts fire science company, prepared a color-coded map of each face of the two towers that shows the spread of fire and smoke from the moment the fireballs erupted until each of the towers collapsed.

    What emerges from this analysis and a separate fire survey by Exponent Failure Analysis may help explain why everyone in the two floors just below the plane impact in the north tower ultimately died, even if they survived the initial impacts.  In the south tower, most people below impact survived and were able to flee.

    As the American Airlines Flight 11 rammed onto the north tower, the jet fuel was sprayed into a much larger area within the tower,  the analysis shows.  It documents office workers who reported burning ceilings, floors and elevators at locations throughout the lower reaches of the north tower.  Flames even reached the north tower lobby, where several people were severely burned as they stood near the elevators.

    The rapid and wide dispersion of the fuel apparently ignited fires on the 92nd and 93rd floors of the north tower, just below the impact zone, where Carr Futures and Marsh & McLennan had their offices.  The fires also engulfed another series of floors just above impact and they somehow spread to the offices of Cantor Fitzgerald in the tower's upper reaches, possibly through a mechanical shaft, the analysis finds.

Huge Fireball, Less Damage

    The experience in the south tower, at least with regard to the fire, was quite different.  First, a much larger fireball in the south probably consumed more of the fuel, and spectacular as it was, did little damage itself.  Second, the path of the plane was angled away from elevator shafts and stairwells, probably leading to a more confined area of spillage, said Craig L. Beyler, a fire expert who is technical director at Hughes Associates.

    "The north tower was a very central hit," Dr. Beyler said.  "The south tower was more asymmetrical."

    The fires in the south tower were largely confined to the tight area around the plane impact, Mr. Custer's report finds.  And no fire at all is seen from the western face of the tower, even in the impact zone, which was the one area where a stairwell survived allowing 18 people to get out of the building before it fell--the only people from either building at or above impact who survived.

    A statistical accounting by Mr. Custer bears out those conclusions.  At one time or another, fire appeared in approximately 390 windows in the north tower, compared with 151 in the south.  The reports do not directly address what these differences in the fire patterns meant for the trapped worker.  Still the finding may explain why so many more people jumped or fell from the windows of the north tower than from the south.

    Steadily, the fires weakened the structure of the towers.  The Weidlinger analysis created a series of diagrams for the towers, showing how stresses were distributed before they were struck, then after.  Immediately after impact, the stress on remaining columns shot up, over a butterfly-shaped pattern around the impact zone on the facade and throughout the core. But none of the columns were stressed to the breaking point.

    As the fires burned and the columns heated and weakened, the bland matrix of numbers measuring stresses shifted to critical levels, indicating the inevitable approach of the catastrophe the world soon witnessed.  Finally, according to the Weidlinger analysis, the columns heated to the point at which the laws of physics dictated the next act:  they lost their strength and failed, leading to collapse.

    Not everyone agrees with those conclusions.  Other analysts believe that the trade center's floors, supported by the lightweight trusses, sagged and snapped in the heat, removing critical supports for the columns, which then buckled and led to collapse.  The issue remains unresolved, Dr. Osteraas said.

A Catalog of Disaster

    Either way, said Daniel A. Cuoco, an engineer who is president of the Thornton-Tomasetti Group, "the central portion collapsed on itself and the facade just peeled off," a conclusion he reached after his company, which worked for the city at ground zero beginning on Sept. 11, examined hundreds of photographs of the ghastly patterns of destruction and debris that remained where the giant towers had stood.

    Those photographs, each annotated to specify where and when it was taken, form perhaps the largest repository of ground zero images ever assembled.  "They present a catalog, so to speak, to anyone who has an interest in understanding the disaster, said Richard Tomasetti, co-chairman of the Thornton-Tomasetti Group.


user posted image
adoucette
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 9 2006, 08:06 PM)
QUOTE (Un-newton+)
tower seven ............freefall.
cap's impact, fully absorbed without budging the lower majority of the floors, therefore no more crushing mass.
no acceleration or decceleration in descents.
no stutter.
the spire falls at freefall or damn near, when it shouldn't have fallen at all.
here's another i've never mentioned.  an aluminum tin can rips through steel columns, without the wings shearing off, or the tail shattering, and in fact, there is no visible decceleration of the plane as it 'butters' it's way into the building.
ultrafine dust made up of EVERYTHING that was in the towers.
visible explosions.
seismic signatures do not match collapse times.
explosions are recorded.  soundwave energies do not match with seismic sigs OR claimed energy exchanges.  (ie.  increasing amounts of mass impacting lower floors should make a 'ramp up' soundwave)
disconnected floors cannot 'pull' on anything.
the floors are not a stack of boxes.
the elevators do not run from top to bottom.
there was reinforced concrete in the building.

i love how you guys can go from threatening to pleading in a heartbeat.  it's cute.
and how you keep forgetting that those(above, which are jsut a smattering) are physics arguments.


Hi-ho happy-camper! Newt, you must have missed where ALL those assertions/contentions (unsupported by consistent physics arguments) have been countered WITH physics arguments which anyone on your 'side' has STILL to properly refute with physics arguments of your own. Why don't you go back to where Schneibster puts paid to 'freefall'. Still not refuted. Go back to where metamars agrees that the falling column which took down the 'spire-supporting' column did so too quickly for the next 'frame' of the video camera to capture its progress downwards. And the rest on your list have been countered by prosaic physics/processes arguments as well....and in some cases even 'self-refuted' by information presented by the CTers themselves!....more than once.

I think you need to re-do that list to reflect reality, mate. There's nothing there that is consistent with the information presented so far.


RC,

This list invokes what is known as Deja' Moo.

That's the feeling that you seen all this BS before.

Arthur
Commen sense
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 10 2006, 12:07 AM)
Picture of an Asbestos Tree.

Rare Species with leaves that can withstand a PYROCLASTIC FLOW

User posted image

laugh.gif laugh.gif

Arthur

This is why I come back day after day. It's like watching the comedy channel/blooper and practical jokes taped live! HEHEHE! I think I'm going to use that on my sight! HEHEHE.

The GREAT Professor JONES! HA!
RealityCheck
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 10 2006, 12:12 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 9 2006, 08:06 PM)
QUOTE (Un-newton+)
tower seven ............freefall.
cap's impact, fully absorbed without budging the lower majority of the floors, therefore no more crushing mass.
no acceleration or decceleration in descents.
no stutter.
the spire falls at freefall or damn near, when it shouldn't have fallen at all.
here's another i've never mentioned.  an aluminum tin can rips through steel columns, without the wings shearing off, or the tail shattering, and in fact, there is no visible decceleration of the plane as it 'butters' it's way into the building.
ultrafine dust made up of EVERYTHING that was in the towers.
visible explosions.
seismic signatures do not match collapse times.
explosions are recorded.  soundwave energies do not match with seismic sigs OR claimed energy exchanges.  (ie.  increasing amounts of mass impacting lower floors should make a 'ramp up' soundwave)
disconnected floors cannot 'pull' on anything.
the floors are not a stack of boxes.
the elevators do not run from top to bottom.
there was reinforced concrete in the building.

i love how you guys can go from threatening to pleading in a heartbeat.  it's cute.
and how you keep forgetting that those(above, which are jsut a smattering) are physics arguments.


Hi-ho happy-camper! Newt, you must have missed where ALL those assertions/contentions (unsupported by consistent physics arguments) have been countered WITH physics arguments which anyone on your 'side' has STILL to properly refute with physics arguments of your own. Why don't you go back to where Schneibster puts paid to 'freefall'. Still not refuted. Go back to where metamars agrees that the falling column which took down the 'spire-supporting' column did so too quickly for the next 'frame' of the video camera to capture its progress downwards. And the rest on your list have been countered by prosaic physics/processes arguments as well....and in some cases even 'self-refuted' by information presented by the CTers themselves!....more than once.

I think you need to re-do that list to reflect reality, mate. There's nothing there that is consistent with the information presented so far.


RC,

This list invokes what is known as Deja' Moo.

That's the feeling that you seen all this BS before.

Arthur


Hi adoucette! 'deja moooooo'...now that is funny, hehehe. Great imagery! One can also say "stepping in it" all before.....as well as "smelling it" all before, heh? (I wonder if someone will now accuse me of being 'someone else'....merely because I also brought the 'olfactory dimension' to your initial imagery? hehehe).

RC.
.
shagster
A good pictorial of the loss of registry between columns above and below the buckled region once the global collapse started. Assumptions made about the loads the building could handle are no longer valid near the collapse front once the columns are no longer connected to one another and vertical as they once were when the building was standing normally.

user posted image
RealityCheck
QUOTE (frater plecticus+Mar 9 2006, 11:53 PM)
QUOTE
How could two large wide-bodied aluminum jetliners penetrate massive steel towers and disappear with no deceleration visible, no plane wreckage visible in gashes and none knocked to the ground below the impact zone?

Expressed another way, no confirmed debris exists from two alleged 767 high-speed crashes into skyscrapers within 17 minutes of each other, a stunning lack of evidence to support the official 767 theory. Given long experience with airplane crashes, it is difficult if not impossible to accept the proposition that a wide-body jetliner can smash into a dense steel-concrete tower and disappear virtually without a trace, much less do it twice within 17 minutes in the same city block. Yet the NIST (pdf pg 38) states about the south tower, “the aircraft completely disappeared into the building in a fifth of a second.”

Tower walls were composed of high-strength steel beams approximately 14 inches square on one-meter centers (39.37”) surrounding windows with each column beam secured to others by steel spandrel plates about 52 inches x 10 feet forming a belt around each floor (see p. 8 pdf). Steel beam thicknesses varied from 4” at the base and tapered from 5/8” to *” in the WTC 1 impact zone and 13/16” to *” in the WTC 2 impact zone. WTC floors were grids of steel topped by four inches of steel reinforced lightweight concrete in corrugated steel pans. Walls effectively were dense webs of nearly 40% steel covered by aluminum and backed by steel and concrete floor grids mated to an incredibly strong and dense core of 47 cross-braced steel columns, stairwells and elevator shafts.


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
How could two large wide-bodied aluminum jetliners penetrate massive steel towers and disappear with no deceleration visible, no plane wreckage visible in gashes and none knocked to the ground below the impact zone?

Expressed another way, no confirmed debris exists from two alleged 767 high-speed crashes into skyscrapers within 17 minutes of each other, a stunning lack of evidence to support the official 767 theory. Given long experience with airplane crashes, it is difficult if not impossible to accept the proposition that a wide-body jetliner can smash into a dense steel-concrete tower and disappear virtually without a trace, much less do it twice within 17 minutes in the same city block. Yet the NIST (pdf pg 38) states about the south tower, “the aircraft completely disappeared into the building in a fifth of a second.”

Tower walls were composed of high-strength steel beams approximately 14 inches square on one-meter centers (39.37”) surrounding windows with each column beam secured to others by steel spandrel plates about 52 inches x 10 feet forming a belt around each floor (see p. 8 pdf). Steel beam thicknesses varied from 4” at the base and tapered from 5/8” to *” in the WTC 1 impact zone and 13/16” to *” in the WTC 2 impact zone. WTC floors were grids of steel topped by four inches of steel reinforced lightweight concrete in corrugated steel pans. Walls effectively were dense webs of nearly 40% steel covered by aluminum and backed by steel and concrete floor grids mated to an incredibly strong and dense core of 47 cross-braced steel columns, stairwells and elevator shafts.


In a violent encounter between an aluminum plane weighing nearly 140 tons and a steel tower weighing 500,000 tons, the plane, of course, would be crushed. Aluminum has lower yield and failure strengths than steel and a Boeing 767 mass was a minuscule—to use Hoffman’s term—three hundredths of one percent of each tower’s mass. “The impact did nothing,” as UC Berkeley structural engineer A. Astaneh-Asl said, “the airplane did not do much damage.” Like a pin into skin or a person falling through the ice on a lake, a 140-ton airplane flying at over 400 mph could inflict local damage without damaging the structure globally. In particular, the engines themselves thrusting along full throttle at approximately 450-550 mph obviously could penetrate a steel tower, even fly through it. But whatever blew each gash in the towers, only 13% or less of the upper perimeter columns on a few floors were broken and the upper structure of the towers remained intact.


http://nomoregames.net/index.php?page=911&...1=we_have_holes


Hi FP. Every so often in the TV news I see where a car travelling at about 70-80 miles an hour swerved and ploughed through brick fence and into a brick home and crushed the furniture inside the house. A plane going 500 miles an hour, no matter what it's made of, will easily do the same and worse....or haven't you seen what's left of those apartment buildings etc that got wiped out at Lockerby when that plane hit some years back? I don't know if I've mentioned this before, but I once saw a 'trick' where an ordinary WAX CANDLE was shot ('flat bottom first) into and THROUGH a wooden plank and came out UNSCATHED from the other side. Apparently, the DENSE 'stagnant boundary-layer' CUSHION of air built up in front of that candele-end did all the damage to the plank, and the candle itself just 'followed through' the hole 'pre-drilled' by that dense air buffer. Just goes to show what 'highly compressed air' can DO, heh? Imagine what suddenly 'highly compressed' Aluminium 'leading edge' would do to that steel in an instant at those speeds. Ciao all!

RC.
.
zoktoberfest
Woman Fired for Air America Bumper Sticker
Posted by Eric Jaffa
Thursday March 09th 2006, 7:55 am
Filed under: Courts, Radio


In San Diego County in California, a woman has filed a lawsuit claiming she was fired by Advantage Sales and Marketing, Inc. for the radio-station bumper sticker on her car.

[Linda] Laroca, who was hired by the company as a sales representative, is seeking lost wages and damages for wrongful termination for violations of both public policy and the state labor code. She is also claiming state constitutional violations and emotional distress.

The California labor code prohibits employers from controlling or directing the political activities of employees.

According to Laroca’s suit, the bumper sticker in question read only: “1360 Air America Progressive Talk Radio.“

The nationwide syndicated radio programming from left-wing Air America, which describes itself as “progressive entertainment talk radio” features show hosts such as comedian and author Al Franken. The network programming is carried locally by radio station KLSD 1360 AM.

…Laroca asserts that on Oct. 8, [2005] three weeks after she started working for the marketing company, [Beverly] Fath called her on a Saturday and requested they meet at a nearby grocery store parking lot so Laroca could pass on some documents Fath needed.

During the brief encounter, Laroca charges, the manager pointed to the bumper sticker —- the only one on Laroca’s car —- and remarked that it was a new sticker and called it “that Al Franken left-wing radical radio station.“

Laroca alleges in her suit that Fath then told her, “The country is on a high state of alert. For all I know, you could be al-Qaida.“

A stunned Laroca laughed nervously at the statement, the suit alleges, and then was dealt “the final blow” when Fath fired her on the spot.

This type of incident is one of many reasons why I oppose a proposal by Senator Mike DeWine (R-OH) to let the the White House write its own (secret?) list of terrorist organizations, under which suspected members can be wiretapped without warrants. I don’t trust that the White House would cast a narrow net.

This isn’t the first or last incident of dissent and terrorism being conflated.

Deputy White House Chief of Staff Karl Rove said that “Liberals saw the savagery of the 9/11 attacks and wanted to prepare indictments and offer therapy.” The White House supported that remark.

The Denver, Colorado police have labelled the Quakers’ American Friends Service Committee as “criminal extremists.”

http://www.speakspeak.org/speak-blog/2006/...-bumper-sticker




Gee, I wonder why there aren't more peer reviewed publications, challenging the "official" account, to reference. I just can't figure it out. It seems like a sure fire way, to advance your career.
Foxx
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 10 2006, 12:35 AM)
A good pictorial of the loss of registry between columns above and below the buckled region once the global collapse started. Assumptions made about the loads the building could handle are no longer valid near the collapse front once the columns are no longer connected to one another and vertical as they once were when the building was standing normally.

user posted image

Great Image shagster...

Could explosives do the same thing?


Commen sense
QUOTE (Mr ObFoxxcator+Mar 10 2006, 12:56 AM)
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 10 2006, 12:35 AM)
A good pictorial of the loss of registry between columns above and below the buckled region once the global collapse started.  Assumptions made about the loads the building could handle are no longer valid near the collapse front once the columns are no longer connected to one another and vertical as they once were when the building was standing normally.

user posted image

Great Image shagster...

Could explosives do the same thing?

Could an alien space ship do the same thing, Mr ObFoxxcator?
RealityCheck
QUOTE (Foxx+Mar 10 2006, 12:56 AM)
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 10 2006, 12:35 AM)
A good pictorial of the loss of registry between columns above and below the buckled region once the global collapse started.  Assumptions made about the loads the building could handle are no longer valid near the collapse front once the columns are no longer connected to one another and vertical as they once were when the building was standing normally.

user posted image

Great Image shagster...

Could explosives do the same thing?


Since we're in the 'flippant remarks' phase of this thread, Foxx.....

Do you need explosives after a HUGE plane crash, jetfuel/officefuel fires and damaged fireproofing on vulnerable 'silly' steel does the exact same thing? See Foxx, it's not helpful to your 'side' at all.

RC.
.
Commen sense
QUOTE (zoktoberfest+Mar 10 2006, 12:50 AM)
Woman Fired for Air America Bumper Sticker
Posted by Eric Jaffa
Thursday March 09th 2006, 7:55 am
Filed under: Courts, Radio


In San Diego County in California, a woman has filed a lawsuit claiming she was fired by  Advantage Sales and Marketing, Inc. for the radio-station bumper sticker on her car.

[Linda] Laroca, who was hired by the company as a sales representative, is seeking lost wages and damages for wrongful termination for violations of both public policy and the state labor code. She is also claiming state constitutional violations and emotional distress.

The California labor code prohibits employers from controlling or directing the political activities of employees.

According to Laroca’s suit, the bumper sticker in question read only: “1360 Air America Progressive Talk Radio.“

The nationwide syndicated radio programming from left-wing Air America, which describes itself as “progressive entertainment talk radio” features show hosts such as comedian and author Al Franken. The network programming is carried locally by radio station KLSD 1360 AM.

…Laroca asserts that on Oct. 8, [2005] three weeks after she started working for the marketing company, [Beverly] Fath called her on a Saturday and requested they meet at a nearby grocery store parking lot so Laroca could pass on some documents Fath needed.

During the brief encounter, Laroca charges, the manager pointed to the bumper sticker —- the only one on Laroca’s car —- and remarked that it was a new sticker and called it “that Al Franken left-wing radical radio station.“

Laroca alleges in her suit that Fath then told her, “The country is on a high state of alert. For all I know, you could be al-Qaida.“

A stunned Laroca laughed nervously at the statement, the suit alleges, and then was dealt “the final blow” when Fath fired her on the spot.

This type of incident is one of many reasons why I oppose a proposal by Senator Mike DeWine (R-OH) to let the the White House write its own (secret?) list of terrorist organizations, under which suspected members can be wiretapped without warrants. I don’t trust that the White House would cast a narrow net.

This isn’t the first or last incident of dissent and terrorism being conflated.

Deputy White House Chief of Staff Karl Rove said that “Liberals saw the savagery of the 9/11 attacks and wanted to prepare indictments and offer therapy.” The White House supported that remark.

The Denver, Colorado police have labelled the Quakers’ American Friends Service Committee as “criminal extremists.”

http://www.speakspeak.org/speak-blog/2006/...-bumper-sticker




Gee, I wonder why there aren't more peer reviewed publications, challenging the "official" account, to reference. I just can't figure it out. It seems like a sure fire way, to advance your career.

I heard about this and agree it's sick. But what does this have to do with the thread? Logical Fallacy maybe?
Commen sense
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 10 2006, 01:01 AM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Mar 10 2006, 12:56 AM)
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 10 2006, 12:35 AM)
A good pictorial of the loss of registry between columns above and below the buckled region once the global collapse started.  Assumptions made about the loads the building could handle are no longer valid near the collapse front once the columns are no longer connected to one another and vertical as they once were when the building was standing normally.

user posted image

Great Image shagster...

Could explosives do the same thing?


Since we're in the 'flippant remarks' phase of this thread, Foxx.....

Do you need explosives after a HUGE plane crash, jetfuel/officefuel fires and damaged fireproofing on vulnerable 'silly' steel does the exact same thing? See Foxx, it's not helpful to your 'side' at all.

RC.
.

RC, I don't know how you receive Television but here in the states we pay for entertainment this good. I feel like I'm steeling a satellite feed. I'm having entirely to much fun. tongue.gif
reasonwhy
QUOTE (Foxx+Mar 9 2006, 04:56 PM)
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 10 2006, 12:35 AM)
A good pictorial of the loss of registry between columns above and below the buckled region once the global collapse started.  Assumptions made about the loads the building could handle are no longer valid near the collapse front once the columns are no longer connected to one another and vertical as they once were when the building was standing normally.

user posted image

Great Image shagster...

Could explosives do the same thing?

I was wondering what happened to the core?
RealityCheck
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 10 2006, 01:07 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 10 2006, 01:01 AM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Mar 10 2006, 12:56 AM)
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 10 2006, 12:35 AM)
A good pictorial of the loss of registry between columns above and below the buckled region once the global collapse started.  Assumptions made about the loads the building could handle are no longer valid near the collapse front once the columns are no longer connected to one another and vertical as they once were when the building was standing normally.

user posted image

Great Image shagster...

Could explosives do the same thing?


Since we're in the 'flippant remarks' phase of this thread, Foxx.....

Do you need explosives after a HUGE plane crash, jetfuel/officefuel fires and damaged fireproofing on vulnerable 'silly' steel does the exact same thing? See Foxx, it's not helpful to your 'side' at all.

RC.
.

RC, I don't know how you receive Television but here in the states we pay for entertainment this good. I feel like I'm steeling a satellite feed. I'm having entirely to much fun. tongue.gif


This thread IS beginning to 'view' somewhat like a CT 'soapy', hehehe..... conmplete with the regular 'commercial breaks' from their 'sponsors', hehehe....and right now I'm just waiting for the next CTer 'commercial' so I can go to the 'loo' (the 'bathroom'?), hehehe.

I get 5 channels 'free-to-air' here (some channels break up in bad weather.....much like my internet 'line', heh!); I can't afford, nor do I really want, 'pay TV'....mainly because they're not value-for-money....since they have a lot of 'filler/garbage' to try to justify their exhorbitant fees. At least there is occasionally something worth watching on free to air, but not often. I do a lot of work/thinking on my pet projects/ideas, so I don't miss TV all that much.

How many/manner of TV channels do YOU get; and are THEY worth it?

RC.
.
Commen sense
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 10 2006, 01:11 AM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Mar 9 2006, 04:56 PM)
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 10 2006, 12:35 AM)
A good pictorial of the loss of registry between columns above and below the buckled region once the global collapse started.  Assumptions made about the loads the building could handle are no longer valid near the collapse front once the columns are no longer connected to one another and vertical as they once were when the building was standing normally.

user posted image

Great Image shagster...

Could explosives do the same thing?

I was wondering what happened to the core?

user posted image
Commen sense
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 10 2006, 01:22 AM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 10 2006, 01:07 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 10 2006, 01:01 AM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Mar 10 2006, 12:56 AM)
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 10 2006, 12:35 AM)
A good pictorial of the loss of registry between columns above and below the buckled region once the global collapse started.  Assumptions made about the loads the building could handle are no longer valid near the collapse front once the columns are no longer connected to one another and vertical as they once were when the building was standing normally.

user posted image

Great Image shagster...

Could explosives do the same thing?


Since we're in the 'flippant remarks' phase of this thread, Foxx.....

Do you need explosives after a HUGE plane crash, jetfuel/officefuel fires and damaged fireproofing on vulnerable 'silly' steel does the exact same thing? See Foxx, it's not helpful to your 'side' at all.

RC.
.

RC, I don't know how you receive Television but here in the states we pay for entertainment this good. I feel like I'm steeling a satellite feed. I'm having entirely to much fun. tongue.gif


This thread IS beginning to 'view' somewhat like a CT 'soapy', hehehe..... conmplete with the regular 'commercial breaks' from their 'sponsors', hehehe....and right now I'm just waiting for the next CTer 'commercial' so I can go to the 'loo' (the 'bathroom'?), hehehe.

I get 5 channels 'free-to-air' here (some channels break up in bad weather.....much like my internet 'line', heh!); I can't afford, nor do I really want, 'pay TV'....mainly because they're not value-for-money....since they have a lot of 'filler/garbage' to try to justify their exhorbitant fees. At least there is occasionally something worth watching on free to air, but not often. I do a lot of work/thinking on my pet projects/ideas, so I don't miss TV all that much.

How many/manner of TV channels do YOU get; and are THEY worth it?

RC.
.

Aside from this comedy channel I get 180. But I have a different take on the 'filler/garbage'. While I agree with you here I also think stations like "Sundance" wouldn't be seen by many on a "buy each channel" format. These obscure channels have well acted, directed and written movies you would never see on the big corporate channels. No "Shoot-em up" blood and guts so they may not have big box office receipts yet the quality is sometimes better.

Their are also lots of liberal news channels if you know how to find them. Something needed in this right bias/tilted media.
adoucette
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 9 2006, 09:22 PM)

I get 5 channels 'free-to-air' here (some channels break up in bad weather.....much like my internet 'line', heh!); I can't afford, nor do I really want, 'payTV'....mainly because they're not value-for-money....since they have a lot of 'filler/garbage' to try to justify their exhorbitant fees. At least there is occasionally something worth watching on free to air, but not often. I do a lot of work/thinking on my pet projects/ideas, so I don't miss TV all that much.

How many/manner of TV channels do YOU get; and are THEY worth it?

RC.
.

Worth it is hard to define.

If you have lots of disposable income, then this amount per month is nothing.
If you don't and are already "doing without" then this would seem like a waste.

For $50 US I get 180 channels off of satellite + Local CBS + a zillion CD quality music channels.

Arthur
Commen sense
http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/program...=10045&sortby=1
adoucette
The KEY to TV though is to get a Digital Video Recorder.

I have 3 of them, allowing me to record three shows at the same time.

I pretty much only watch recorded shows, thus skipping all commercials and then watch on my schedule.

Arthur
ScottS.
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 10 2006, 01:39 AM)
http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/program...=10045&sortby=1

I just got dish a couple of months ago. Battlestar Galactica. great show.
This has been a fun thread, almost as addicting.

Commen sense
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 10 2006, 01:40 AM)
The KEY to TV though is to get a Digital Video Recorder.

I have 3 of them, allowing me to record three shows at the same time.

I pretty much only watch recorded shows, thus skipping all commercials and then watch on my schedule.

Arthur

HD DVR? Let me tell you IT ROCKS!
adoucette
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 9 2006, 09:51 PM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 10 2006, 01:40 AM)
The KEY to TV though is to get a Digital Video Recorder.

I have 3 of them, allowing me to record three shows at the same time.

I pretty much only watch recorded shows, thus skipping all commercials and then watch on my schedule.

Arthur

HD DVR? Let me tell you IT ROCKS!

Not yet, Dish penalizes existing customers over deals for new customers.
Last I checked it was $700 per HD-DVR and then not very much HD record time.
Figured I'd wait for more HD programming and for the next generation of HD-DVRs with larger drives to come out before making the splurge.
In the meantime I get 9 local HD channels over the air for free and can record any one at a time to DVD at 720p.

Arthur

reasonwhy
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 9 2006, 05:23 PM)
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 10 2006, 01:11 AM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Mar 9 2006, 04:56 PM)
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 10 2006, 12:35 AM)
A good pictorial of the loss of registry between columns above and below the buckled region once the global collapse started.  Assumptions made about the loads the building could handle are no longer valid near the collapse front once the columns are no longer connected to one another and vertical as they once were when the building was standing normally.

user posted image

Great Image shagster...

Could explosives do the same thing?

I was wondering what happened to the core?

user posted image

Great simulation:
QUOTE
The mangled planes finally barreled into a forest of crucial structural columns in the cores of the buildings, the simulations show.  In both towers, the damage to those columns was severe -- so severe, in fact, that the simulations predict that the south tower should have, by this calculation  collapsed immediately.

John Osteraas, director of civil engineering practice at Exponent Failure Analysis who has been retained by the insurance companies, said that the incorrect result cast doubt on some of its predictions.


This shows why you need forensic evidence .

http://www.lafire.com/famous_fires/2001-09...s-DataTrove.htm


RealityCheck
.
CS, adoucette. Wow! Talk about 'infotainment overload'! I don't think I WANT to be 'captive' to such...ahem...."choice" between bad and worse wastes of time, hehehe. I mean, JUST REVIEWING/DECIDING on WHAT to record/watch would be a full time occupation!......let alone THEN actually having time to watch what you recorded.

It seems that we do reasonably well over here with only the TWO Aussie Public TV broadcasters (ABC & SBS) and three Corporately-owned TV broadcasters (essentially channels SEVEN, NINE & TEN). The former two are pretty unbiased most of the time. And the others are 'known' for their 'views' depending on what's going on. So we tend to 'average out' the facts.

Other than that, I think that, taken together, all 5 free to air channels (plus our national/corporate RADIO networks) do a good job in providing a reasonable level/mix of news and entertainment services which allows anyone who wants, to keep abreast of National/International happenings/infotainments sufficiently well.

And you're right, the cost for what you 'receive' is enormous to one who is 'already doing without', hehehe. You have summarized my predicament very elgantly, adoucette!

Sometimes too much of a 'good thing' can be viewed by some (like me) as 'too much', heh? When do you guys get time to quietly 'sit and think' just for the hell of it?

How's your collective blood pressure, guys? I bet 'coffee' falls into the "major food group" category over there! hehehe.

RC.
.
newton
television sucks brains.



gordon
A good pictorial of the loss of registry between columns above and below the buckled region once the global collapse started. Assumptions made about the loads the building could handle are no longer valid near the collapse front once the columns are no longer connected to one another and vertical as they once were when the building was standing normally.

Does this model show the sequence where the upper sections exerted a force upwards while simultaneously travelling downwards? Or is that explanation pending?

Gordon.
Commen sense
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 10 2006, 02:03 AM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 9 2006, 05:23 PM)
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 10 2006, 01:11 AM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Mar 9 2006, 04:56 PM)
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 10 2006, 12:35 AM)
A good pictorial of the loss of registry between columns above and below the buckled region once the global collapse started.  Assumptions made about the loads the building could handle are no longer valid near the collapse front once the columns are no longer connected to one another and vertical as they once were when the building was standing normally.

user posted image

Great Image shagster...

Could explosives do the same thing?

I was wondering what happened to the core?

user posted image

Great simulation:
QUOTE
The mangled planes finally barreled into a forest of crucial structural columns in the cores of the buildings, the simulations show.  In both towers, the damage to those columns was severe -- so severe, in fact, that the simulations predict that the south tower should have, by this calculation  collapsed immediately.

John Osteraas, director of civil engineering practice at Exponent Failure Analysis who has been retained by the insurance companies, said that the incorrect result cast doubt on some of its predictions.


This shows why you need forensic evidence .

http://www.lafire.com/famous_fires/2001-09...s-DataTrove.htm

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The mangled planes finally barreled into a forest of crucial structural columns in the cores of the buildings, the simulations show.  In both towers, the damage to those columns was severe -- so severe, in fact, that the simulations predict that the south tower should have, by this calculation  collapsed immediately.

John Osteraas, director of civil engineering practice at Exponent Failure Analysis who has been retained by the insurance companies, said that the incorrect result cast doubt on some of its predictions.


This shows why you need forensic evidence .

http://www.lafire.com/famous_fires/2001-09...s-DataTrove.htm

The mangled planes finally barreled into a forest of crucial structural columns in the cores of the buildings, the simulations show.  In both towers, the damage to those columns was severe -- so severe, in fact, that the simulations predict that the south tower should have, by this calculation  collapsed immediately.

    Mr. Levy conceded that the simulations do have some significant limitations. They take into account only the tower's structural steel and not the partitions and other contents of the offices inside, which must have absorbed some of the plane's impact.  So the estimated damage to the structure itself is an upper limit, "the worst thing that could happen in terms of the results,"  Mr. Lev said..

    John Osteraas, director of civil engineering practice at Exponent Failure Analysis who has been retained by the insurance companies, said that the incorrect result cast doubt on some of its predictions.


I was wondering how long it would take for you to take that out of context. I want everyone reading this to see how these clowns work in real time. Notice reasonwhy left the important paragragph out stating WHY the results may have been off. It's not like they were thinking it COULDN'T happen. Yet reasonwhy trys to create the ILLUSION John Osteraas thinks it couldn't collapse by fire by simply leaving a paragraph out.
RealityCheck
QUOTE (gordon+Mar 10 2006, 02:14 AM)
A good pictorial of the loss of registry between columns above and below the buckled region once the global collapse started. Assumptions made about the loads the building could handle are no longer valid near the collapse front once the columns are no longer connected to one another and vertical as they once were when the building was standing normally.

Does this model show the sequence where the upper sections exerted a force upwards while simultaneously travelling downwards?  Or is that explanation pending?

Gordon.


Hi gordon. Can you rephrase that? hehehe.

RC.
.
reasonwhy
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 9 2006, 06:18 PM)
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 10 2006, 02:03 AM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 9 2006, 05:23 PM)
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 10 2006, 01:11 AM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Mar 9 2006, 04:56 PM)
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 10 2006, 12:35 AM)
A good pictorial of the loss of registry between columns above and below the buckled region once the global collapse started.  Assumptions made about the loads the building could handle are no longer valid near the collapse front once the columns are no longer connected to one another and vertical as they once were when the building was standing normally.

user posted image

Great Image shagster...

Could explosives do the same thing?

I was wondering what happened to the core?

user posted image

Great simulation:
QUOTE
The mangled planes finally barreled into a forest of crucial structural columns in the cores of the buildings, the simulations show.  In both towers, the damage to those columns was severe -- so severe, in fact, that the simulations predict that the south tower should have, by this calculation  collapsed immediately.

John Osteraas, director of civil engineering practice at Exponent Failure Analysis who has been retained by the insurance companies, said that the incorrect result cast doubt on some of its predictions.


This shows why you need forensic evidence .

http://www.lafire.com/famous_fires/2001-09...s-DataTrove.htm

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The mangled planes finally barreled into a forest of crucial structural columns in the cores of the buildings, the simulations show.  In both towers, the damage to those columns was severe -- so severe, in fact, that the simulations predict that the south tower should have, by this calculation  collapsed immediately.

John Osteraas, director of civil engineering practice at Exponent Failure Analysis who has been retained by the insurance companies, said that the incorrect result cast doubt on some of its predictions.


This shows why you need forensic evidence .

http://www.lafire.com/famous_fires/2001-09...s-DataTrove.htm

The mangled planes finally barreled into a forest of crucial structural columns in the cores of the buildings, the simulations show.  In both towers, the damage to those columns was severe -- so severe, in fact, that the simulations predict that the south tower should have, by this calculation  collapsed immediately.

    Mr. Levy conceded that the simulations do have some significant limitations. They take into account only the tower's structural steel and not the partitions and other contents of the offices inside, which must have absorbed some of the plane's impact.  So the estimated damage to the structure itself is an upper limit, "the worst thing that could happen in terms of the results,"  Mr. Lev said..

    John Osteraas, director of civil engineering practice at Exponent Failure Analysis who has been retained by the insurance companies, said that the incorrect result cast doubt on some of its predictions.


I was wondering how long it would take for you to take that out of context. I want everyone reading this to see how these clowns work in real time. Notice reasonwhy left the important paragragph out stating WHY the results may have been off. It's not like they were thinking it COULDN'T happen. Yet reasonwhy trys to create the ILLUSION John Osteraas thinks it couldn't collapse by fire by simply leaving a paragraph out.

Were do I or anyone else say anything about fires? They say the simulation somehow brought the tower down from the impact of the aircraft. This is some of the best simulations money can buy and they admit it does not match what actually happened.
Commen sense
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 10 2006, 02:34 AM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 9 2006, 06:18 PM)
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 10 2006, 02:03 AM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 9 2006, 05:23 PM)
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 10 2006, 01:11 AM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Mar 9 2006, 04:56 PM)
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 10 2006, 12:35 AM)
A good pictorial of the loss of registry between columns above and below the buckled region once the global collapse started.  Assumptions made about the loads the building could handle are no longer valid near the collapse front once the columns are no longer connected to one another and vertical as they once were when the building was standing normally.

user posted image

Great Image shagster...

Could explosives do the same thing?

I was wondering what happened to the core?

user posted image

Great simulation:
QUOTE
The mangled planes finally barreled into a forest of crucial structural columns in the cores of the buildings, the simulations show.  In both towers, the damage to those columns was severe -- so severe, in fact, that the simulations predict that the south tower should have, by this calculation  collapsed immediately.

John Osteraas, director of civil engineering practice at Exponent Failure Analysis who has been retained by the insurance companies, said that the incorrect result cast doubt on some of its predictions.


This shows why you need forensic evidence .

http://www.lafire.com/famous_fires/2001-09...s-DataTrove.htm

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The mangled planes finally barreled into a forest of crucial structural columns in the cores of the buildings, the simulations show.  In both towers, the damage to those columns was severe -- so severe, in fact, that the simulations predict that the south tower should have, by this calculation  collapsed immediately.

John Osteraas, director of civil engineering practice at Exponent Failure Analysis who has been retained by the insurance companies, said that the incorrect result cast doubt on some of its predictions.


This shows why you need forensic evidence .

http://www.lafire.com/famous_fires/2001-09...s-DataTrove.htm

The mangled planes finally barreled into a forest of crucial structural columns in the cores of the buildings, the simulations show.  In both towers, the damage to those columns was severe -- so severe, in fact, that the simulations predict that the south tower should have, by this calculation  collapsed immediately.

    Mr. Levy conceded that the simulations do have some significant limitations. They take into account only the tower's structural steel and not the partitions and other contents of the offices inside, which must have absorbed some of the plane's impact.  So the estimated damage to the structure itself is an upper limit, "the worst thing that could happen in terms of the results,"  Mr. Lev said..

    John Osteraas, director of civil engineering practice at Exponent Failure Analysis who has been retained by the insurance companies, said that the incorrect result cast doubt on some of its predictions.


I was wondering how long it would take for you to take that out of context. I want everyone reading this to see how these clowns work in real time. Notice reasonwhy left the important paragragph out stating WHY the results may have been off. It's not like they were thinking it COULDN'T happen. Yet reasonwhy trys to create the ILLUSION John Osteraas thinks it couldn't collapse by fire by simply leaving a paragraph out.

Were do I or anyone else say anything about fires? They say the simulation somehow brought the tower down from the impact of the aircraft. This is some of the best simulations money can buy

Don't change the subject, WHY DID YOU LEAVE THAT PARAGRAPH OUT.

QUOTE
  A statistical accounting by Mr. Custer bears out those conclusions.  At one time or another, fire appeared in approximately 390 windows in the north tower, compared with 151 in the south.  The reports do not directly address what these differences in the fire patterns meant for the trapped worker.  Still the finding may explain why so many more people jumped or fell from the windows of the north tower than from the south.

    Steadily, the fires weakened the structure of the towers.  The Weidlinger analysis created a series of diagrams for the towers, showing how stresses were distributed before they were struck, then after.  Immediately after impact, the stress on remaining columns shot up, over a butterfly-shaped pattern around the impact zone on the facade and throughout the core. But none of the columns were stressed to the breaking point.

    As the fires burned and the columns heated and weakened, the bland matrix of numbers measuring stresses shifted to critical levels, indicating the inevitable approach of the catastrophe the world soon witnessed.  Finally, according to the Weidlinger analysis, the columns heated to the point at which the laws of physics dictated the next act:  they lost their strength and failed, leading to collapse.
RealityCheck
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 10 2006, 02:34 AM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 9 2006, 06:18 PM)
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 10 2006, 02:03 AM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 9 2006, 05:23 PM)
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 10 2006, 01:11 AM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Mar 9 2006, 04:56 PM)
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 10 2006, 12:35 AM)
A good pictorial of the loss of registry between columns above and below the buckled region once the global collapse started.  Assumptions made about the loads the building could handle are no longer valid near the collapse front once the columns are no longer connected to one another and vertical as they once were when the building was standing normally.

user posted image

Great Image shagster...

Could explosives do the same thing?

I was wondering what happened to the core?

user posted image

Great simulation:
QUOTE
The mangled planes finally barreled into a forest of crucial structural columns in the cores of the buildings, the simulations show.  In both towers, the damage to those columns was severe -- so severe, in fact, that the simulations predict that the south tower should have, by this calculation  collapsed immediately.

John Osteraas, director of civil engineering practice at Exponent Failure Analysis who has been retained by the insurance companies, said that the incorrect result cast doubt on some of its predictions.


This shows why you need forensic evidence .

http://www.lafire.com/famous_fires/2001-09...s-DataTrove.htm

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The mangled planes finally barreled into a forest of crucial structural columns in the cores of the buildings, the simulations show.  In both towers, the damage to those columns was severe -- so severe, in fact, that the simulations predict that the south tower should have, by this calculation  collapsed immediately.

John Osteraas, director of civil engineering practice at Exponent Failure Analysis who has been retained by the insurance companies, said that the incorrect result cast doubt on some of its predictions.


This shows why you need forensic evidence .

http://www.lafire.com/famous_fires/2001-09...s-DataTrove.htm

The mangled planes finally barreled into a forest of crucial structural columns in the cores of the buildings, the simulations show.  In both towers, the damage to those columns was severe -- so severe, in fact, that the simulations predict that the south tower should have, by this calculation  collapsed immediately.

    Mr. Levy conceded that the simulations do have some significant limitations. They take into account only the tower's structural steel and not the partitions and other contents of the offices inside, which must have absorbed some of the plane's impact.  So the estimated damage to the structure itself is an upper limit, "the worst thing that could happen in terms of the results,"  Mr. Lev said..

    John Osteraas, director of civil engineering practice at Exponent Failure Analysis who has been retained by the insurance companies, said that the incorrect result cast doubt on some of its predictions.


I was wondering how long it would take for you to take that out of context. I want everyone reading this to see how these clowns work in real time. Notice reasonwhy left the important paragragph out stating WHY the results may have been off. It's not like they were thinking it COULDN'T happen. Yet reasonwhy trys to create the ILLUSION John Osteraas thinks it couldn't collapse by fire by simply leaving a paragraph out.

Were do I or anyone else say anything about fires? They say the simulation somehow brought the tower down from the impact of the aircraft. This is some of the best simulations money can buy and they admit it does not match what actually happened.



Hi reasonwhy. From my reading of that highlighted paragraph, I get that the 'buffering' effects of interior materials weren't factored into that simulation, which may have resulted in 'that calculation' of the core damage being even greater than it was. A 'crumple zone' effect would have resulted from flooring/furnishings etc deadening the impact somewhat as all that stuff got dragged along and piled up against the core and the other side outer wall. Is that what you read as well?

RC.
.
reasonwhy
QUOTE (gordon+Mar 9 2006, 06:14 PM)
A good pictorial of the loss of registry between columns above and below the buckled region once the global collapse started. Assumptions made about the loads the building could handle are no longer valid near the collapse front once the columns are no longer connected to one another and vertical as they once were when the building was standing normally.

Does this model show the sequence where the upper sections exerted a force upwards while simultaneously travelling downwards?  Or is that explanation pending?

Gordon.

QUOTE
Steadily, the fires weakened the structure of the towers.  The Weidlinger analysis created a series of diagrams for the towers, showing how stresses were distributed before they were struck, then after.  Immediately after impact, the stress on remaining columns shot up, over a butterfly-shaped pattern around the impact zone on the facade and throughout the core. But none of the columns were stressed to the breaking point.

  As the fires burned and the columns heated and weakened, the bland matrix of numbers measuring stresses shifted to critical levels, indicating the inevitable approach of the catastrophe the world soon witnessed.  Finally, according to the Weidlinger analysis, the columns heated to the point at which the laws of physics dictated the next act:  they lost their strength and failed, leading to collapse.

    Not everyone agrees with those conclusions.  Other analysts believe that the trade center's floors, supported by the lightweight trusses, sagged and snapped in the heat, removing critical supports for the columns, which then buckled and led to collapse.  The issue remains unresolved, Dr. Osteraas said.

http://www.lafire.com/famous_fires/2001-09...s-DataTrove.htm

They claim this lead to the collapse.
Commen sense
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 10 2006, 02:18 AM)
QUOTE (gordon+Mar 10 2006, 02:14 AM)
A good pictorial of the loss of registry between columns above and below the buckled region once the global collapse started. Assumptions made about the loads the building could handle are no longer valid near the collapse front once the columns are no longer connected to one another and vertical as they once were when the building was standing normally.

Does this model show the sequence where the upper sections exerted a force upwards while simultaneously travelling downwards?  Or is that explanation pending?

Gordon.


Hi gordon. Can you rephrase that? hehehe.

RC.
.

I think I know what hes saying but I want to hear it from him to be sure...
Commen sense
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 10 2006, 02:46 AM)
QUOTE (gordon+Mar 9 2006, 06:14 PM)
A good pictorial of the loss of registry between columns above and below the buckled region once the global collapse started. Assumptions made about the loads the building could handle are no longer valid near the collapse front once the columns are no longer connected to one another and vertical as they once were when the building was standing normally.

Does this model show the sequence where the upper sections exerted a force upwards while simultaneously travelling downwards?  Or is that explanation pending?

Gordon.

QUOTE
Steadily, the fires weakened the structure of the towers.  The Weidlinger analysis created a series of diagrams for the towers, showing how stresses were distributed before they were struck, then after.  Immediately after impact, the stress on remaining columns shot up, over a butterfly-shaped pattern around the impact zone on the facade and throughout the core. But none of the columns were stressed to the breaking point.

   As the fires burned and the columns heated and weakened, the bland matrix of numbers measuring stresses shifted to critical levels, indicating the inevitable approach of the catastrophe the world soon witnessed.  Finally, according to the Weidlinger analysis, the columns heated to the point at which the laws of physics dictated the next act:  they lost their strength and failed, leading to collapse.

    Not everyone agrees with those conclusions.  Other analysts believe that the trade center's floors, supported by the lightweight trusses, sagged and snapped in the heat, removing critical supports for the columns, which then buckled and led to collapse.  The issue remains unresolved, Dr. Osteraas said.

http://www.lafire.com/famous_fires/2001-09...s-DataTrove.htm

They claim this lead to the collapse.

Is this true Gordon? Because even I can understand this... blink.gif
adoucette
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 9 2006, 10:04 PM)
.
CS, adoucette. Wow! Talk about 'infotainment overload'! I don't think I WANT to be 'captive' to such...ahem...."choice" between bad and worse wastes of time, hehehe. I mean, JUST REVIEWING/DECIDING on WHAT to record/watch would be a full time occupation!......let alone THEN actually having time to watch what you recorded.


Well one of the nice features of the DVR is the ease of recording.
First there is the on-screen guide of channels that you customize, leaving off all the channels you never watch and then allowing you to group them by catagory. I have 4 different lineups. General, Movies, News & Local, Favorites.
To record a whole season of a series takes 4 or 5 selections from a visual menu.
To record a specific show takes 2 or 3.

You optimize watching by A) only watching things you have pre-selected and B ) skipping commercials. C ) not having to be a slave to its schedule.

I DON'T watch all I record.

I Do record a lot of "DIY" shows.

But what you won't do is find me sitting down to watch the "least objectionable" thing on.

Arthur
reasonwhy
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 9 2006, 06:45 PM)
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 10 2006, 02:34 AM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 9 2006, 06:18 PM)
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 10 2006, 02:03 AM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 9 2006, 05:23 PM)
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 10 2006, 01:11 AM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Mar 9 2006, 04:56 PM)
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 10 2006, 12:35 AM)
A good pictorial of the loss of registry between columns above and below the buckled region once the global collapse started.  Assumptions made about the loads the building could handle are no longer valid near the collapse front once the columns are no longer connected to one another and vertical as they once were when the building was standing normally.

user posted image

Great Image shagster...

Could explosives do the same thing?

I was wondering what happened to the core?

user posted image

Great simulation:
QUOTE
The mangled planes finally barreled into a forest of crucial structural columns in the cores of the buildings, the simulations show.  In both towers, the damage to those columns was severe -- so severe, in fact, that the simulations predict that the south tower should have, by this calculation  collapsed immediately.

John Osteraas, director of civil engineering practice at Exponent Failure Analysis who has been retained by the insurance companies, said that the incorrect result cast doubt on some of its predictions.


This shows why you need forensic evidence .

http://www.lafire.com/famous_fires/2001-09...s-DataTrove.htm

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The mangled planes finally barreled into a forest of crucial structural columns in the cores of the buildings, the simulations show.  In both towers, the damage to those columns was severe -- so severe, in fact, that the simulations predict that the south tower should have, by this calculation  collapsed immediately.

John Osteraas, director of civil engineering practice at Exponent Failure Analysis who has been retained by the insurance companies, said that the incorrect result cast doubt on some of its predictions.


This shows why you need forensic evidence .

http://www.lafire.com/famous_fires/2001-09...s-DataTrove.htm

The mangled planes finally barreled into a forest of crucial structural columns in the cores of the buildings, the simulations show.  In both towers, the damage to those columns was severe -- so severe, in fact, that the simulations predict that the south tower should have, by this calculation  collapsed immediately.

    Mr. Levy conceded that the simulations do have some significant limitations. They take into account only the tower's structural steel and not the partitions and other contents of the offices inside, which must have absorbed some of the plane's impact.  So the estimated damage to the structure itself is an upper limit, "the worst thing that could happen in terms of the results,"  Mr. Lev said..

    John Osteraas, director of civil engineering practice at Exponent Failure Analysis who has been retained by the insurance companies, said that the incorrect result cast doubt on some of its predictions.


I was wondering how long it would take for you to take that out of context. I want everyone reading this to see how these clowns work in real time. Notice reasonwhy left the important paragragph out stating WHY the results may have been off. It's not like they were thinking it COULDN'T happen. Yet reasonwhy trys to create the ILLUSION John Osteraas thinks it couldn't collapse by fire by simply leaving a paragraph out.

Were do I or anyone else say anything about fires? They say the simulation somehow brought the tower down from the impact of the aircraft. This is some of the best simulations money can buy and they admit it does not match what actually happened.



Hi reasonwhy. From my reading of that highlighted paragraph, I get that the 'buffering' effects of interior materials weren't factored into that simulation, which may have resulted in 'that calculation' of the core damage being even greater than it was. A 'crumple zone' effect would have resulted from flooring/furnishings etc deadening the impact somewhat as all that stuff got dragged along and piled up against the core and the other side outer wall. Is that what you read as well?

RC.
.


Hi RC,
No, what I get from the little information in the article is that you need the physical evidence from the crime scene to correctly simulate the damage. The engineer was obviously trying to cover for the fact his simulation did not match reality. The second paragraph is just an opinion and shows serious problems with the model.
RealityCheck
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 10 2006, 02:57 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 9 2006, 10:04 PM)
.
CS, adoucette. Wow! Talk about 'infotainment overload'! I don't think I WANT to be 'captive' to such...ahem...."choice" between bad and worse wastes of time, hehehe. I mean, JUST REVIEWING/DECIDING on WHAT to record/watch would be a full time occupation!......let alone THEN actually having time to watch what you recorded.


Well one of the nice features of the DVR is the ease of recording.
First there is the on-screen guide of channels that you customize, leaving off all the channels you never watch and then allowing you to group them by catagory. I have 4 different lineups. General, Movies, News & Local, Favorites.
To record a whole season of a series takes 4 or 5 selections from a visual menu.
To record a specific show takes 2 or 3.

You optimize watching by A) only watching things you have pre-selected and B ) skipping commercials. C ) not having to be a slave to its schedule.

I DON'T watch all I record.

I Do record a lot of "DIY" shows.

But what you won't do is find me sitting down to watch the "least objectionable" thing on.

Arthur


Sold! If ever I get enough money to 'spare', I'll see what I can do recorder/service wise, hehehe.

And you're right-on about that 'least objectionable' "choice" to watch (reminds me of "least objectional' "politicians" to vote for, heh!). But in the case of TV, for myself at least, if there is nothing I ACTUALLY WANT to watch, I will sit and think/work or read/re-read/watch a good/favourite book/tape or listen to classical music or listen to the ABC Radio or go for a walk on the beach or ring my folks in Sydney or even log in at Physorg! Anything BUT settle for the least objectionable thing on! hehehe. But again, it'd be great to have that luxury of TV programs just waiting for you to 'catch up' with them....assuming I find things interesting enough often enough to warrant the expense/setup (I have reached that stage in my pretty 'busy' and 'original' life that I find 'little new under the sun' except for what I can imagine and what comes out of science & technology endeavours around the globe. Does anyone else feel that way?). Cheers!

RC.
.
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