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adoucette
QUOTE (brian+Mar 8 2006, 09:21 PM)
Of course you are a pilot.


I was posting on airdisaster.com before 9-11

I guess I set up the lie that I was a pilot over there in ANTICIPATION of needing it for a CONSPIRACY about an event that had not yet happened.

MORON

Arthur


Edit: The above was in error, While I had been on Air Disaster prior to 9-11 (infrequently) I REGISTERED on AirDisaster on 11-13-2001 so I could POST and to discuss the crash of AA-587 in NY.
Commen sense
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 9 2006, 01:38 AM)
QUOTE (Christophera+Mar 8 2006, 09:23 PM)

There is more reason for the different looking cores of the towers than the fact they perpindicuarly oposite.

The south tower had a redesigned core.  I've been researching it.  The hallway scheme was changed from the north tower because it was so hard to rent out.  Thw WTC 2 core was termed the "super core".  As best as I can tell it had 2 hallways running in both directions, didnt have the taper and wasn't totally a shear wall design as was WTC 1.

It had very tightly made cells, with concrete floors (WTC 1 may have had steel framed floors).

How is THAT possible???

One was HARDER TO RENT OUT????

They hadn't even finished building them.

laugh.gif

Arthur

Notice how he pulls crap straight out of his large intestine?
RealityCheck
QUOTE (newton+Mar 9 2006, 01:20 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 9 2006, 01:15 AM)
QUOTE (newton+Mar 9 2006, 01:00 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 9 2006, 12:55 AM)
QUOTE (newton+Mar 9 2006, 12:39 AM)
user posted image

wow, THIS 'bin laden' confesses, but THAT bin laden says america did it to itself.

who to beLIEve?  who to beLIEve?


Hi non-newt! Where did you get the above pic-on-pic presentation?

RC.
.

blow me, unreality check. if i can be 'witty' for a moment.

user posted image


Again you've let your penchant for the quick and thoughtless witless witticism get the better of your logical and observational faculties.

Only the floors, hat-truss and (upper) core were 'flattened' in whatever time it took.

Most of the outer 'tube' was expelled SIDEWAYS.

The lower half of the CORE 'stood' shakily for a bit LONGER.

Do you still pretend to be an 'unbiased/intelligent' observer and commentator? Or is the mask 'off' now....as just demonstrated by that post of yours?

BTW, you haven't said where you got that pic-on-pic presentation from. Source?

RC.
.

yeah?

and....?


hahaha!

speaking of intelligent, just copy the URL of the pic to your clipboard(copy image location). the mysterious source of all pics online will be revealed to you.


Hi newton. It's difficult for me to do all the things you guys take for granted. As Foxx and adoucette and most others here know by now, my system is old and clunky and much-modified/non-standard. Until I joined Physorg (with much 'fiddling' with my system to get it to work at all with Physorg system), I used my computer for my own in-house science/technolog and patents work. I didn't NEED to get on the net for info, since I worked from my own info. gleaned over the years.

So I can't look up what you suggested without much trouble and logging-off and loading sub-routines etc etc.

Couldn't you just tell me? I probably can't access whatever site you got it from, anyway; but it is good to know where you, adoucette, christophera and the rest of you guys get this stuff from, just so I can get a 'mind's eye picture' of who is saying what on the net, even if I can't get to those sources directly, hehehe. So I'd appreciate the site/source. Thanks.

RC.
.
newton
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 9 2006, 01:27 AM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 8 2006, 08:57 PM)
QUOTE (newton+Mar 9 2006, 12:53 AM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 9 2006, 12:46 AM)
QUOTE (Ln(x)+Mar 9 2006, 12:41 AM)
A question for the shills...

Are they giving you any sort of stocks or bond in the New World Government, or are you simply without scruples and willing to sell out mankind for a quick buck?

Obviously, you are either unaware or unconcerned with the possible ramifications of your dishonest actions.

I enjoy a profound feeling of satisfaction knowing that when your time comes, after you have endured the hellish cruelty of the global paramilitary dictatorship, and you are called to stand before your maker, you will be slain.

Have a nice day.

You mean Rove's shills who want to take focus away from Bush's REAL crime. CT Shills that want to let Osama get away with the murder of 3000 people? The CTers truely don't know what they're doing. wink.gif

haha! that's FUUNNNNNNNNNYYYYYYYYYYYY!

i JUST posted the fake/real osama .gif, and you try and use this argument. and 'INVOKE' rove, no less. HAHAHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!

News flash moron, people gain and lose weight. Once again you've only proved your idiocy.

Never mind about one video being taken further away than the other...

The real difference, is not closer or further away, but the focal length of the lens.

When you are trying to take a WIDE angle picture in a room (i.e. 3 people sitting around talking about how their last mission was wildly successful) then you have to use a WIDE ANGLE, this will get them all in the same shot, but it will DISTORT the picture (more or less depending on where the subject is in relationship to the center of the picture and the quality of the lens) typical WA lens are in the 35mm range (you get down to 18mm and you are looking at a Fish Eye lens). While you can take pictures of people with WIDE angle lens, you have to realize that it will tend to STRETCH them around the center of the lens. Further from the center, the more the stretch.

On the OTHERHAND, when you shoot a "Talking head", one tends to use a NORMAL focal length, 50-55mm where the camera "sees" ~ the same as human eyesight.

People look very NORMAL with this lens.

What is quite classically the same in both pictures is the asymetrical nose. If you want to compare a picture of two people taken under different lighting and with different lenses, look for UNIQUE features. Then the exact height X Width sizing becomes less important.

Arthur

unique features like cheekbones, eyebrows and nose?

it's not osama, shills. ADMIT IT!!!!!


HAHAHAHA!

and, geez? wasn't osama ALSO on a middle easteren network only a few days difference from the famous 'cave' video? and, hadn't he 'magically' LOST all the alleged fat?

hey, as long as we're here, why don't we also analyse the jewelry-wearing 'muslims' that touch their faces with their left hands, and speak english, and have white skin, from the nick berg video? and why don't we also compare the colour and texture of the backgrounds with the abu gharib photos?

shall we also look into the british soldiers dressed as arabs who attacked a police station in iraq?

shall we deny the photos and testimony of torture(a bad thing, for those unsure) from abu gharib?

alright, class. everyone write this out.....

F-A-L-S-E F-L-A-G. now say it, .....'false flag' operations. that's where you PRETEND to be the enemy, and you do some horrific deed, and then you CLAIM that it was the 'enemy' that did it, so that you can initiate hostility while blaming the other guy for it. COOL, EH?



fish eye. HAHAHAHA!

man, you shills are putting me in a GOOD mood, today.


thanks!
Christophera
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 8 2006, 11:39 PM)
user posted image

Repeat after me... There was no concrete... there was no concrete... there was no concrete...

It's mostly sand and gravel.

http://www.w3.org/People/Jacobs/2001/10/wtc/pdrm1943.jpg

No wonder you can't recognize concrete when you see it.

user posted image
Commen sense
QUOTE (newton+Mar 9 2006, 01:46 AM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 9 2006, 01:27 AM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 8 2006, 08:57 PM)
QUOTE (newton+Mar 9 2006, 12:53 AM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 9 2006, 12:46 AM)
QUOTE (Ln(x)+Mar 9 2006, 12:41 AM)
A question for the shills...

Are they giving you any sort of stocks or bond in the New World Government, or are you simply without scruples and willing to sell out mankind for a quick buck?

Obviously, you are either unaware or unconcerned with the possible ramifications of your dishonest actions.

I enjoy a profound feeling of satisfaction knowing that when your time comes, after you have endured the hellish cruelty of the global paramilitary dictatorship, and you are called to stand before your maker, you will be slain.

Have a nice day.

You mean Rove's shills who want to take focus away from Bush's REAL crime. CT Shills that want to let Osama get away with the murder of 3000 people? The CTers truely don't know what they're doing. wink.gif

haha! that's FUUNNNNNNNNNYYYYYYYYYYYY!

i JUST posted the fake/real osama .gif, and you try and use this argument. and 'INVOKE' rove, no less. HAHAHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!

News flash moron, people gain and lose weight. Once again you've only proved your idiocy.

Never mind about one video being taken further away than the other...

The real difference, is not closer or further away, but the focal length of the lens.

When you are trying to take a WIDE angle picture in a room (i.e. 3 people sitting around talking about how their last mission was wildly successful) then you have to use a WIDE ANGLE, this will get them all in the same shot, but it will DISTORT the picture (more or less depending on where the subject is in relationship to the center of the picture and the quality of the lens) typical WA lens are in the 35mm range (you get down to 18mm and you are looking at a Fish Eye lens). While you can take pictures of people with WIDE angle lens, you have to realize that it will tend to STRETCH them around the center of the lens. Further from the center, the more the stretch.

On the OTHERHAND, when you shoot a "Talking head", one tends to use a NORMAL focal length, 50-55mm where the camera "sees" ~ the same as human eyesight.

People look very NORMAL with this lens.

What is quite classically the same in both pictures is the asymetrical nose. If you want to compare a picture of two people taken under different lighting and with different lenses, look for UNIQUE features. Then the exact height X Width sizing becomes less important.

Arthur

unique features like cheekbones, eyebrows and nose?

it's not osama, shills. ADMIT IT!!!!!


HAHAHAHA!

and, geez? wasn't osama ALSO on a middle easteren network only a few days difference from the famous 'cave' video? and, hadn't he 'magically' LOST all the alleged fat?

hey, as long as we're here, why don't we also analyse the jewelry-wearing 'muslims' that touch their faces with their left hands, and speak english, and have white skin, from the nick berg video? and why don't we also compare the colour and texture of the backgrounds with the abu gharib photos?

shall we also look into the british soldiers dressed as arabs who attacked a police station in iraq?

shall we deny the photos and testimony of torture(a bad thing, for those unsure) from abu gharib?

alright, class. everyone write this out.....

F-A-L-S-E F-L-A-G. now say it, .....'false flag' operations. that's where you PRETEND to be the enemy, and you do some horrific deed, and then you CLAIM that it was the 'enemy' that did it, so that you can initiate hostility while blaming the other guy for it. COOL, EH?



fish eye. HAHAHAHA!

man, you shills are putting me in a GOOD mood, today.


thanks!

See Scott, He has no problem insulting us. I say save the respect for someone deserving.

newted, The only reason you have hypnotized yourself into thinking it's not him is because he confessed. You're no different than our friend chris who sees concrete in the mirror.
newton
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/fake-to-real.gif

cool?

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/1717/th...rushthis3om.jpg

m'kay?

p.s. if you ACTUALLY try to 'blow me', i may have to do the baseball bat experiment.

do you have a flintstone's browser?

seriously. specifically, what system are you running, mr. forthright?
newton
QUOTE (Christophera+Mar 9 2006, 01:48 AM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 8 2006, 11:39 PM)
user posted image

Repeat after me... There was no concrete... there was no concrete... there was no concrete...

It's mostly sand and gravel.

http://www.w3.org/People/Jacobs/2001/10/wtc/pdrm1943.jpg

No wonder you can't recognize concrete when you see it.

user posted image

DEFINITELY concrete dust. it's within the right spectrum of grey.

there is NOTHING else that has been CLAIMED to have been in the towers that would show as that whitish-greyish CONCRETE colour, and the shear VOLUME of it is a gospel testament.
Christophera
QUOTE (newton+Mar 9 2006, 01:30 AM)
a little aside, kind of....

i was just looking at the arsoNIST report, and they state that there was REBAR in the concrete. 

they don't say specifically WHERE, but they definitively talk about it.

now, i personally think that the CORE FLOORS had rebar to add to the pure strength of the core. 

it SEEMED to me(because there is rampant nebulism going on in the arsoNIST report) that the LOWER floors had a lot of reinforced concrete, and the higher up the tower you went, the less and less there was. 

this makes sense to me, as a former aspiring architect.

Both towers had concrete cores. WTC 2 had a different core and hallways W/concrete floors.

WTC 2 had what has been termed the "super core" I believe it was cellular in design rather than shear wall.
newton
p.s. UC, you know a 'good' second hand PC is like a hundred bucks, now, right?

you might want to think about it. i keep my task specific computers task specific.

i mean, the things are more chaotic than a runaway global collapse!
shagster
I don't see the antenna tower on the north tower (I assume the north tower is on the right). The antenna wasn't added until the late 70s if I remember right. So that pic could be fairly early when tenants hadn't yet moved in which would explain the lack of drywall or other tenant-placed materials and lack of opacity.

User posted image
shagster
I'm still trying to find a video of the south tower collapse that continues to the point of the still below and from a similar perspective. I have dozens of clips from the web but they all stop before the dust starts to clear as in the pic below.

I have one video from a helicopter of the south collapse. It shows a fairly narrow vertical plume rising from the central part of where the tower used to stand after some of the other dust started to clear. That column in the pic below looks too vertical and sharp to be a plume. It's hard to tell with other dust in the way.

user posted image
RealityCheck
QUOTE (newton+Mar 9 2006, 01:55 AM)
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/fake-to-real.gif

cool?

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/1717/th...rushthis3om.jpg

m'kay?

p.s.  if you ACTUALLY try to 'blow me', i may have to do the baseball bat experiment.

do you have a flintstone's browser?

seriously.  specifically, what system are you running, mr. forthright?


Thanks, mate! As you will also see from my past posts here and other forums, I not only keep this 'non-standard system because I don't have to spend most of my days 'patching' and 'virus-fighting' and 'restoring' etc etc like most people I know do because THEY have 'you-beaut' nifty NEW systems captive to the 'corporations' and the 'virus' industry.

That reminds me, who was it a good few pages back that objected to the 'promotion' of some 'long-freely-available' image-processing software from an 'open software' guy with an EXCELLENT 'package? Are these 'objectors' the same people who are AGAINST CORPORATION CONTROL? So why would they prefer to support an INFERIOR product from Microsoft in preference to this 'one man band' with a SUPERIOR product? Seems a little hypocritical to me, heh....especially considering all this NEO-CON stuff they post!

And sorry, no offence meant, newt...but you will also note from previous posts here and elsewhere, that I practice STRICT 'internet prudence' when it comes to giving out details of my system. It would defeat the purpose of keeping my non-standard old clunker 'as is', wouldn't it? Thanks again for the requested source info. Cheers!

RC.
.
Christophera
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 9 2006, 12:26 AM)
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 8 2006, 08:12 PM)
QUOTE (ScottS.+Mar 8 2006, 03:51 PM)

Yes paint me the robot.wink.gif
Didn't you try that before;)


Ok ScottS. Answer this simple question. Does the collapse of WTC7 resemble a controlled demolition? Just yes or no, I would like your honest opinion.

I suspect Steve will agree, but regradless, IMHO:

Visually it does to a certain extent, in that unlike the WTC 1 & 2 which OBVIOUSLY collapsed from the point of plane impact DOWN, the WTC 7 building fails down low.

What I've NEVER seen, and what I think would be QUITE NOTICABLE, since people were standing around WAITING for it to fall, would be the SHARP REPORTS from the HIGH EXPLOSIVES as the key supports were cut.
That I have NEVER heard.

Nor do I SEE any obvious signs of DEMOLITION.

And so no, it doesn't APPEAR from an AUDIO/VISUAL point of view to be a CD.

Arthur

Arthur,

You make a point I've made before, but I related it specifically to cutting steel core columns.

You say "supports", well I know there was a concrete core, so you are half right.

IF there were steel core columns THEN the sharp reports would be heard exactly as you say.

Since there was a concrete core (with C4 coated rebar in it, floors layered with it too), the explosions could be contained by very carefully engineered charges perfectly placed and distributed which would all but eliminate gas jets that also make a sharper noise. Since there was a concrete core, all of the concrete could fall immediatly enabling free fall. Since the floors were layered with C4, everything in the building was pulverized and the floors cut the interior box columns just ahead of the core which levered out the interior box columns that in turn pushed out the perimeter walls ni segments or pieces.

Since there was a cold war, we developed the C4 coated rebar as a self destruct technology for sub bases and missle silos.
RealityCheck
QUOTE (Christophera+Mar 9 2006, 02:14 AM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 9 2006, 12:26 AM)
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 8 2006, 08:12 PM)
QUOTE (ScottS.+Mar 8 2006, 03:51 PM)

Yes paint me the robot.wink.gif
Didn't you try that before;)


Ok ScottS. Answer this simple question. Does the collapse of WTC7 resemble a controlled demolition? Just yes or no, I would like your honest opinion.

I suspect Steve will agree, but regradless, IMHO:

Visually it does to a certain extent, in that unlike the WTC 1 & 2 which OBVIOUSLY collapsed from the point of plane impact DOWN, the WTC 7 building fails down low.

What I've NEVER seen, and what I think would be QUITE NOTICABLE, since people were standing around WAITING for it to fall, would be the SHARP REPORTS from the HIGH EXPLOSIVES as the key supports were cut.
That I have NEVER heard.

Nor do I SEE any obvious signs of DEMOLITION.

And so no, it doesn't APPEAR from an AUDIO/VISUAL point of view to be a CD.

Arthur

Arthur,

You make a point I've made before, but I related it specifically to cutting steel core columns.

You say "supports", well I know there was a concrete core, so you are half right.

IF there were steel core columns THEN the sharp reports would be heard exactly as you say.

Since there was a concrete core (with C4 coated rebar in it, floors layered with it too), the explosions could be contained by very carefully engineered charges perfectly placed and distributed which would all but eliminate gas jets that also make a sharper noise. Since there was a concrete core, all of the concrete could fall immediatly enabling free fall. Since the floors were layered with C4, everything in the building was pulverized and the floors cut the interior box columns just ahead of the core which levered out the interior box columns that in turn pushed out the perimeter walls ni segments or pieces.

Since there was a cold war, we developed the C4 coated rebar as a self destruct technology for sub bases and missle silos.


Hi Chris! Are you saying that the whole C4-coated-rebar-etc 'priming' for demolition of the towers was carried out when the towers were being built?

RC.
newton
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 9 2006, 02:10 AM)
QUOTE (newton+Mar 9 2006, 01:55 AM)
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/fake-to-real.gif

cool?

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/1717/th...rushthis3om.jpg

m'kay?

p.s.  if you ACTUALLY try to 'blow me', i may have to do the baseball bat experiment.

do you have a flintstone's browser?

seriously.  specifically, what system are you running, mr. forthright?


Thanks, mate! As you will also see from my past posts here and other forums, I not only keep this 'non-standard system because I don't have to spend most of my days 'patching' and 'virus-fighting' and 'restoring' etc etc like most people I know do because THEY have 'you-beaut' nifty NEW systems captive to the 'corporations' and the 'virus' industry.

That reminds me, who was it a good few pages back that objected to the 'promotion' of some 'long-freely-available' image-processing software from an 'open software' guy with an EXCELLENT 'package? Are these 'objectors' the same people who are AGAINST CORPORATION CONTROL? So why would they prefer to support an INFERIOR product from Microsoft in preference to this 'one man band' with a SUPERIOR product? Seems a little hypocritical to me, heh....especially considering all this NEO-CON stuff they post!

And sorry, no offence meant, newt...but you will also note from previous posts here and elsewhere, that I practice STRICT 'internet prudence' when it comes to giving out details of my system. It would defeat the purpose of keeping my non-standard old clunker 'as is', wouldn't it? Thanks again for the requested source info. Cheers!

RC.
.

i HATE to admit it.

you're not all bad. LOL!

SGI all the way, or PASCAL, er WHATEVER, LOL!

ps. feck off with the attacks. you're not qualified, lol!
Christophera
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 9 2006, 01:15 AM)
QUOTE (newton+Mar 9 2006, 01:00 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 9 2006, 12:55 AM)
QUOTE (newton+Mar 9 2006, 12:39 AM)
user posted image

wow, THIS 'bin laden' confesses, but THAT bin laden says america did it to itself.

who to beLIEve?  who to beLIEve?


Hi non-newt! Where did you get the above pic-on-pic presentation?

RC.
.

blow me, unreality check. if i can be 'witty' for a moment.

user posted image


Again you've let your penchant for the quick and thoughtless witless witticism get the better of your logical and observational faculties.

Only the floors, hat-truss and (upper) core were 'flattened' in whatever time it took.

Most of the outer 'tube' was expelled SIDEWAYS.

The lower half of the CORE 'stood' shakily for a bit LONGER.

Do you still pretend to be an 'unbiased/intelligent' observer and commentator? Or is the mask 'off' now....as just demonstrated by that post of yours?

BTW, you haven't said where you got that pic-on-pic presentation from. Source?

RC.
.

This is right on.

It only leaves out that the concrete core was what was throwing things out to the side as it exploded.

The steel beam between interior box columns was against the core face,

User posted image

or connected to those that were, when the core blows, it pushes out on that beam then on the 1x 3 "I" beam that connected to the perimeter wall, breaking off the segments.
ScottS
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 9 2006, 01:52 AM)
QUOTE (newton+Mar 9 2006, 01:46 AM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 9 2006, 01:27 AM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 8 2006, 08:57 PM)
QUOTE (newton+Mar 9 2006, 12:53 AM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 9 2006, 12:46 AM)
QUOTE (Ln(x)+Mar 9 2006, 12:41 AM)
A question for the shills...

Are they giving you any sort of stocks or bond in the New World Government, or are you simply without scruples and willing to sell out mankind for a quick buck?

Obviously, you are either unaware or unconcerned with the possible ramifications of your dishonest actions.

I enjoy a profound feeling of satisfaction knowing that when your time comes, after you have endured the hellish cruelty of the global paramilitary dictatorship, and you are called to stand before your maker, you will be slain.

Have a nice day.

You mean Rove's shills who want to take focus away from Bush's REAL crime. CT Shills that want to let Osama get away with the murder of 3000 people? The CTers truely don't know what they're doing. wink.gif

haha! that's FUUNNNNNNNNNYYYYYYYYYYYY!

i JUST posted the fake/real osama .gif, and you try and use this argument. and 'INVOKE' rove, no less. HAHAHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!

News flash moron, people gain and lose weight. Once again you've only proved your idiocy.

Never mind about one video being taken further away than the other...

The real difference, is not closer or further away, but the focal length of the lens.

When you are trying to take a WIDE angle picture in a room (i.e. 3 people sitting around talking about how their last mission was wildly successful) then you have to use a WIDE ANGLE, this will get them all in the same shot, but it will DISTORT the picture (more or less depending on where the subject is in relationship to the center of the picture and the quality of the lens) typical WA lens are in the 35mm range (you get down to 18mm and you are looking at a Fish Eye lens). While you can take pictures of people with WIDE angle lens, you have to realize that it will tend to STRETCH them around the center of the lens. Further from the center, the more the stretch.

On the OTHERHAND, when you shoot a "Talking head", one tends to use a NORMAL focal length, 50-55mm where the camera "sees" ~ the same as human eyesight.

People look very NORMAL with this lens.

What is quite classically the same in both pictures is the asymetrical nose. If you want to compare a picture of two people taken under different lighting and with different lenses, look for UNIQUE features. Then the exact height X Width sizing becomes less important.

Arthur

unique features like cheekbones, eyebrows and nose?

it's not osama, shills. ADMIT IT!!!!!


HAHAHAHA!

and, geez? wasn't osama ALSO on a middle easteren network only a few days difference from the famous 'cave' video? and, hadn't he 'magically' LOST all the alleged fat?

hey, as long as we're here, why don't we also analyse the jewelry-wearing 'muslims' that touch their faces with their left hands, and speak english, and have white skin, from the nick berg video? and why don't we also compare the colour and texture of the backgrounds with the abu gharib photos?

shall we also look into the british soldiers dressed as arabs who attacked a police station in iraq?

shall we deny the photos and testimony of torture(a bad thing, for those unsure) from abu gharib?

alright, class. everyone write this out.....

F-A-L-S-E F-L-A-G. now say it, .....'false flag' operations. that's where you PRETEND to be the enemy, and you do some horrific deed, and then you CLAIM that it was the 'enemy' that did it, so that you can initiate hostility while blaming the other guy for it. COOL, EH?



fish eye. HAHAHAHA!

man, you shills are putting me in a GOOD mood, today.


thanks!

See Scott, He has no problem insulting us. I say save the respect for someone deserving.

newted, The only reason you have hypnotized yourself into thinking it's not him is because he confessed. You're no different than our friend chris who sees concrete in the mirror.

Heavy word useage like shill, false flag, etc. is a testament to their radicalism.
Another standard is that one conspiracy is rapped into another and so on.

I say let them continue. biggrin.gif
Notice the increased frustration.


RealityCheck
QUOTE (newton+Mar 9 2006, 02:20 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 9 2006, 02:10 AM)
QUOTE (newton+Mar 9 2006, 01:55 AM)
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/fake-to-real.gif

cool?

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/1717/th...rushthis3om.jpg

m'kay?

p.s.  if you ACTUALLY try to 'blow me', i may have to do the baseball bat experiment.

do you have a flintstone's browser?

seriously.  specifically, what system are you running, mr. forthright?


Thanks, mate! As you will also see from my past posts here and other forums, I not only keep this 'non-standard system because I don't have to spend most of my days 'patching' and 'virus-fighting' and 'restoring' etc etc like most people I know do because THEY have 'you-beaut' nifty NEW systems captive to the 'corporations' and the 'virus' industry.

That reminds me, who was it a good few pages back that objected to the 'promotion' of some 'long-freely-available' image-processing software from an 'open software' guy with an EXCELLENT 'package? Are these 'objectors' the same people who are AGAINST CORPORATION CONTROL? So why would they prefer to support an INFERIOR product from Microsoft in preference to this 'one man band' with a SUPERIOR product? Seems a little hypocritical to me, heh....especially considering all this NEO-CON stuff they post!

And sorry, no offence meant, newt...but you will also note from previous posts here and elsewhere, that I practice STRICT 'internet prudence' when it comes to giving out details of my system. It would defeat the purpose of keeping my non-standard old clunker 'as is', wouldn't it? Thanks again for the requested source info. Cheers!

RC.
.

i HATE to admit it.

you're not all bad. LOL!

SGI all the way, or PASCAL, er WHATEVER, LOL!

ps. feck off with the attacks. you're not qualified, lol!


.
Hehehe.
.
Commen sense
Correction: Repeat after me... There was no concrete CORE... there was no concrete CORE... there was no concrete CORE...

There was most certainly concrete FLOORS. a measly 2 inches.
Christophera
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 9 2006, 01:38 AM)
QUOTE (Christophera+Mar 8 2006, 09:23 PM)

There is more reason for the different looking cores of the towers than the fact they perpindicuarly oposite.

The south tower had a redesigned core.  I've been researching it.  The hallway scheme was changed from the north tower because it was so hard to rent out.  Thw WTC 2 core was termed the "super core".  As best as I can tell it had 2 hallways running in both directions, didnt have the taper and wasn't totally a shear wall design as was WTC 1.

It had very tightly made cells, with concrete floors (WTC 1 may have had steel framed floors).

How is THAT possible???

One was HARDER TO RENT OUT????

They hadn't even finished building them.

laugh.gif

Arthur

It's like you never heard of realtors renting/leasing out buildings or space in them before they were built or finished.


***, you live in the USA or what?


Lower floors of WTC 1 were rented out before upper areas were finished.
newton
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 9 2006, 02:10 AM)
Thanks again for the requested source info. Cheers!

RC.
.

seeing as i KNOW you don't FEEL anything, when you say 'thanks'....

no problem. my pleasure. CHEERS, 'BUDDY'!
newton
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 9 2006, 02:26 AM)
Correction: Repeat after me... There was no concrete CORE... there was no concrete CORE... there was no concrete CORE...

There was most certainly concrete FLOORS. a measly 2 inches.

you're lying.

it's AT LEAST four inches, and you ought to know that by now.
Christophera
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 9 2006, 02:26 AM)
Correction: Repeat after me... There was no concrete CORE... there was no concrete CORE... there was no concrete CORE...

There was most certainly concrete FLOORS. a measly 2 inches.

Keep up your mantra. It'll help with your position in the NWO.
Christophera
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 9 2006, 02:04 AM)
I don't see the antenna tower on the north tower (I assume the north tower is on the right). The antenna wasn't added until the late 70s if I remember right. So that pic could be fairly early when tenants hadn't yet moved in which would explain the lack of drywall or other tenant-placed materials and lack of opacity.

User posted image

North tower is on the left. Sunrise shot.

See,

http://concretecore.741.com/

for a complete description of the hallways and the reflected light.
reasonwhy
QUOTE (Christophera+Mar 8 2006, 06:14 PM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 9 2006, 12:26 AM)
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 8 2006, 08:12 PM)
QUOTE (ScottS.+Mar 8 2006, 03:51 PM)

Yes paint me the robot.wink.gif
Didn't you try that before;)


Ok ScottS. Answer this simple question. Does the collapse of WTC7 resemble a controlled demolition? Just yes or no, I would like your honest opinion.

I suspect Steve will agree, but regradless, IMHO:

Visually it does to a certain extent, in that unlike the WTC 1 & 2 which OBVIOUSLY collapsed from the point of plane impact DOWN, the WTC 7 building fails down low.

What I've NEVER seen, and what I think would be QUITE NOTICABLE, since people were standing around WAITING for it to fall, would be the SHARP REPORTS from the HIGH EXPLOSIVES as the key supports were cut.
That I have NEVER heard.

Nor do I SEE any obvious signs of DEMOLITION.

And so no, it doesn't APPEAR from an AUDIO/VISUAL point of view to be a CD.

Arthur

Arthur,

You make a point I've made before, but I related it specifically to cutting steel core columns.

You say "supports", well I know there was a concrete core, so you are half right.

IF there were steel core columns THEN the sharp reports would be heard exactly as you say.

Since there was a concrete core (with C4 coated rebar in it, floors layered with it too), the explosions could be contained by very carefully engineered charges perfectly placed and distributed which would all but eliminate gas jets that also make a sharper noise. Since there was a concrete core, all of the concrete could fall immediatly enabling free fall. Since the floors were layered with C4, everything in the building was pulverized and the floors cut the interior box columns just ahead of the core which levered out the interior box columns that in turn pushed out the perimeter walls ni segments or pieces.

Since there was a cold war, we developed the C4 coated rebar as a self destruct technology for sub bases and missle silos.

Christophera,
Do you have any proof at all for the C4 idea?
newton
QUOTE (ScottS+Mar 9 2006, 02:23 AM)

Heavy word useage like shill, false flag, etc. is a testament to their radicalism.
Another standard is that one conspiracy is rapped into another and so on.

I say let them continue. biggrin.gif
Notice the increased frustration.

you want HEAVY word usage? sorry. wait for the trials.

shill and false flag are light compared to 'YOU are COMPLICIT in these CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY'!

anyway, ....relax.


that's PROBABLY not going to happen, yeah?
frustration? yeah, i'm sensing some.


....from YOU.

'radicalism'.

that's funny. i'm SOOOO not a radical. unless you come up with some new passive aggressive version of 'radical'. maybe 'radial', or, 'radiator', or, 'redial'??
RealityCheck
QUOTE (newton+Mar 9 2006, 02:02 AM)
p.s.  UC, you know a 'good' second hand PC is like a hundred bucks, now, right?

you might want to think about it.  i keep my task specific computers task specific.

i mean, the things are more chaotic than a runaway global collapse!


Another Aussie saying, newt: "When you're on a 'good thing', stick to it!"

Besides, unlike you healthy/young people, I don't have the '(life)time and energy left to WANT to 'do it all over again' when it comes to reconfiguring a new computer 'precisely' as I want for MY purposes....and not just for internet.

Anyway, if it wasn't for the intellectually-stimulating allure of these enlightening/interesting/constructive Physorg interactions, I would probably spend an hour a week on the net, if THAT! And where I am the 'connection' is 'iffy' and not worth the extra cash on new equipment which I could better spend on Research/development pre-processes for my many ideas. (I know you don't believe it, but it's true nonetheless...I DO have some original ideas in the pipeline...and it's just a matter of applying my meagre energy/financial resources to push them along.)

And as I stated some time ago to someone, the internet is mostly full of crap and 'pitfalls' for those of you with 'you-beaut' NEW PCs, hehehe. You're welcome to it for the time being. Cheers newt!

RC.
.
Commen sense
Concrete removal
Since the end of WWII builders designed most of the concrete from the modern high-rise constriction. First concrete they eliminated was the stone exterior wall. They replace them with the “curtain walls of glass, sheet steel, or plastics. This curtain wall acted as a lightweight skin to enclose the structure from the outside elements. Next the 8-inch thick concrete floors went. They were replaced with a combination of 2 or 3 inches of concrete on top of thin corrugated steel sheets. Next the masonry enclosure for stairs and elevators were replaced with several layers of sheet rock. Then the masonry smoke proof tower was eliminated in the 1968 building code. It contained too much concrete weight and took up valuable floor space. Then the solid steel beam was replace by the steel truss. And finally the concrete and brick encasement of steel columns girders and floor supports was eliminated. A lightweight spray-on coating of asbestos or mineral fiber was sprayed over the steel. This coating provided fireproofing. After asbestos was discovered hazardous vermiculite or volcanic rock ash substance was used as a spray-on coating for steel. Outside of the foundation walls and a thin 2 or 3 inches of floors surface, concrete has almost been eliminated from high-rise office building construction. If you look at the WTC rubble at ground zero you see very little concrete and lots of twisted steel.

http://www.lafire.com/famous_fires/2001-09...llapse_Dunn.htm

user posted image

Repeat after me... There was no concrete CORE... there was no concrete CORE... there was no concrete CORE...
Christophera
QUOTE (newton+Mar 9 2006, 02:32 AM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 9 2006, 02:26 AM)
Correction: Repeat after me... There was no concrete CORE... there was no concrete CORE... there was no concrete CORE...

There was most certainly concrete FLOORS. a measly 2 inches.

you're lying.

it's AT LEAST four inches, and you ought to know that by now.

The floors in WTC 2 core were 1 foot thick at least.
RealityCheck
QUOTE (newton+Mar 9 2006, 02:30 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 9 2006, 02:10 AM)
Thanks again for the requested source info. Cheers!

RC.
.

seeing as i KNOW you don't FEEL anything, when you say 'thanks'....

no problem. my pleasure. CHEERS, 'BUDDY'!


That's where you make your GREATEST mistake, newt. I mean/feel what I say. Cheers!

RC.
.
Commen sense
QUOTE (Christophera+Mar 9 2006, 02:48 AM)
QUOTE (newton+Mar 9 2006, 02:32 AM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 9 2006, 02:26 AM)
Correction: Repeat after me... There was no concrete CORE... there was no concrete CORE... there was no concrete CORE...

There was most certainly concrete FLOORS. a measly 2 inches.

you're lying.

it's AT LEAST four inches, and you ought to know that by now.

The floors in WTC 2 core were 1 foot thick at least.

It pales in comparison to your skull.
newton
QUOTE (Christophera+Mar 9 2006, 02:48 AM)
QUOTE (newton+Mar 9 2006, 02:32 AM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 9 2006, 02:26 AM)
Correction: Repeat after me... There was no concrete CORE... there was no concrete CORE... there was no concrete CORE...

There was most certainly concrete FLOORS. a measly 2 inches.

you're lying.

it's AT LEAST four inches, and you ought to know that by now.

The floors in WTC 2 core were 1 foot thick at least.

and the concrete in the core is most probably laced with rebar.

the degree of resistance to ANY angular forces in such a configuration is an ENGINEERING MARVEL. this is why the media and peer organisations used 'engineering marvel' to describe the towers way back in the sixties.

(as a backdrop, consider that skyscrapers started shooting up(and NOT falling down in SECONDS) in the twenties. think moores law.)
Commen sense
QUOTE (newton+Mar 9 2006, 02:54 AM)
QUOTE (Christophera+Mar 9 2006, 02:48 AM)
QUOTE (newton+Mar 9 2006, 02:32 AM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 9 2006, 02:26 AM)
Correction: Repeat after me... There was no concrete CORE... there was no concrete CORE... there was no concrete CORE...

There was most certainly concrete FLOORS. a measly 2 inches.

you're lying.

it's AT LEAST four inches, and you ought to know that by now.

The floors in WTC 2 core were 1 foot thick at least.

and the concrete in the core is most probably laced with rebar.

the degree of resistance to ANY angular forces in such a configuration is an ENGINEERING MARVEL. this is why the media and peer organisations used 'engineering marvel' to describe the towers way back in the sixties.

(as a backdrop, consider that skyscrapers started shooting up(and NOT falling down in SECONDS) in the twenties. think moores law.)

I can't help but think our friend chris is laughing at you. Heh!

http://algoxy.com/psych/psyimages/apabarabasz.jpg

Talk about psych-ops! Heh!
Christophera
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 9 2006, 02:52 AM)
QUOTE (Christophera+Mar 9 2006, 02:48 AM)
QUOTE (newton+Mar 9 2006, 02:32 AM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 9 2006, 02:26 AM)
Correction: Repeat after me... There was no concrete CORE... there was no concrete CORE... there was no concrete CORE...

There was most certainly concrete FLOORS. a measly 2 inches.

you're lying.

it's AT LEAST four inches, and you ought to know that by now.

The floors in WTC 2 core were 1 foot thick at least.

It pales in comparison to your skull.

So if you won't explain why the core you believe is not seen in this photo,

user posted image

does that mean you cannot support the 47, 1,300 steel core columns so by default believe it had NO core.

Are you basically saying the towers had no core, a supporter of the AIR CORE theory?
ScottS
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 9 2006, 01:43 AM)
QUOTE (brian+Mar 8 2006, 09:21 PM)
Of course you are a pilot.


I was posting on airdisaster.com before 9-11

I guess I set up the lie that I was a pilot over there in ANTICIPATION of needing it for a CONSPIRACY about an event that had not yet happened.

MORON

Arthur

Interesting post adoucette. Seems like Sagadevan is a scammer of some sort.

I guess others researched this guy Sagadevan and came to similar conclusions

Seems the guy doesn't know what he's talking about nor has he flown a plane in 20 years.
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread185820/pg1

Sagadevan doesn't seem to be credible hit in other forums either.
Like rec.travel.air or rec.aviation.piloting
....Or maybe these are all spooks/shills. wink.gif
Seems brian might want to rethink his sources.
shagster
Looks like there isn't an antenna on the left either. Must have been an early photo.
Christophera
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 9 2006, 02:43 AM)
QUOTE (Christophera+Mar 8 2006, 06:14 PM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 9 2006, 12:26 AM)
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 8 2006, 08:12 PM)
QUOTE (ScottS.+Mar 8 2006, 03:51 PM)

Yes paint me the robot.wink.gif
Didn't you try that before;)


Ok ScottS. Answer this simple question. Does the collapse of WTC7 resemble a controlled demolition? Just yes or no, I would like your honest opinion.

I suspect Steve will agree, but regradless, IMHO:

Visually it does to a certain extent, in that unlike the WTC 1 & 2 which OBVIOUSLY collapsed from the point of plane impact DOWN, the WTC 7 building fails down low.

What I've NEVER seen, and what I think would be QUITE NOTICABLE, since people were standing around WAITING for it to fall, would be the SHARP REPORTS from the HIGH EXPLOSIVES as the key supports were cut.
That I have NEVER heard.

Nor do I SEE any obvious signs of DEMOLITION.

And so no, it doesn't APPEAR from an AUDIO/VISUAL point of view to be a CD.

Arthur

Arthur,

You make a point I've made before, but I related it specifically to cutting steel core columns.

You say "supports", well I know there was a concrete core, so you are half right.

IF there were steel core columns THEN the sharp reports would be heard exactly as you say.

Since there was a concrete core (with C4 coated rebar in it, floors layered with it too), the explosions could be contained by very carefully engineered charges perfectly placed and distributed which would all but eliminate gas jets that also make a sharper noise. Since there was a concrete core, all of the concrete could fall immediatly enabling free fall. Since the floors were layered with C4, everything in the building was pulverized and the floors cut the interior box columns just ahead of the core which levered out the interior box columns that in turn pushed out the perimeter walls ni segments or pieces.

Since there was a cold war, we developed the C4 coated rebar as a self destruct technology for sub bases and missle silos.

Christophera,
Do you have any proof at all for the C4 idea?


The demolition is the proof. You can't make it happen any other way.

All the photos you see show a demolition so sophisticated that we argue about what it was.

The lower portion here is literally blowing up.

User posted image
http://algoxy.com/psych/images/wtc341coreblast.jpg

Locate/align the blast with this earlier photo.

User posted image
http://algoxy.com/psych/images/wtc32.1corealign.jpg
newton
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 9 2006, 02:48 AM)
QUOTE (newton+Mar 9 2006, 02:30 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 9 2006, 02:10 AM)
Thanks again for the requested source info. Cheers!

RC.
.

seeing as i KNOW you don't FEEL anything, when you say 'thanks'....

no problem. my pleasure. CHEERS, 'BUDDY'!


That's where you make your GREATEST mistake, newt. I mean/feel what I say. Cheers!

RC.
.

it's only a mistake if i forget what you said you want to do to foxx's head with a baseball bat.

'feel' it?

RealityCheck
QUOTE (newton+Mar 9 2006, 03:09 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 9 2006, 02:48 AM)
QUOTE (newton+Mar 9 2006, 02:30 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 9 2006, 02:10 AM)
Thanks again for the requested source info. Cheers!

RC.
.

seeing as i KNOW you don't FEEL anything, when you say 'thanks'....

no problem. my pleasure. CHEERS, 'BUDDY'!


That's where you make your GREATEST mistake, newt. I mean/feel what I say. Cheers!

RC.
.

it's only a mistake if i forget what you said you want to do to foxx's head with a baseball bat.

'feel' it?


If you go back and read the relevant posts, you will note that you 'forget' that it was Foxx who introduced the 'baseball bat' comparison to 'everyday' forces which the towers were built to take. The difference is obvious between concentrated-point baseball bat 'hit' and distributed-area wind loadings.

I merely did what ANY good science teacher might do, that is, extended Foxx's analogy in an 'illustration' (did you miss/forget that word too?) which would bring home to ANYONE imagining themselves being struck by a baseball bat and being subject to that SAME energy 'spread over' their whole body surface. An illustrative extension of a prior analogy by Foxx is hardly indicative of bloodthirsty intent, now is it?

So there's nothing for you to 'forget' after all, heh...since it was a figment of your own 'bloodthirsty' imagination, heh newt? hehehe. Again, Cheers! (i mean it!).

RC.
.
adoucette
QUOTE (newton+Mar 8 2006, 09:46 PM)
unique features like cheekbones, eyebrows and nose?

it's not osama, shills.  ADMIT IT!!!!!


I didn't mean for my reply to be taken as a statement of my belief that those two were the same guy. They appear to me to have the same nose, but then the thing keeps moving so it is really hard to tell.

If you wanted to let people compare them HONESTLY you wouldn't MORPH one to the other, because as I pointed out, there can be PHOTOGRAPHIC REASONS that relative dimensions of the same person will change when using different lenses.

Thus the MORPHING can be made to make the SAME person look different.

IT can be a VALID technique for comparing two objects shot using the same lens, but there is no way to tell from this head shot that that was the case.

The "fish eye" reference was so you would understand how a normal lens (55 mm) distorts less than a wide angle lens (35mm) that distorts less than an EXTREME wide angle lens, the Fish eye at 18mm. While EVERYONE notices the distortion in the fisheye, some do not see it in the 35mm lens, but its there, its just not as EXTREME as the fisheye.

Arthur
Christophera
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 9 2006, 03:06 AM)
Looks like there isn't an antenna on the left either.  Must have been an early photo.

I don't know how you conclude that. The tower top can't be seen in my photo.

User posted image
newton
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 9 2006, 03:20 AM)
QUOTE (newton+Mar 9 2006, 03:09 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 9 2006, 02:48 AM)
QUOTE (newton+Mar 9 2006, 02:30 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 9 2006, 02:10 AM)
Thanks again for the requested source info. Cheers!

RC.
.

seeing as i KNOW you don't FEEL anything, when you say 'thanks'....

no problem. my pleasure. CHEERS, 'BUDDY'!


That's where you make your GREATEST mistake, newt. I mean/feel what I say. Cheers!

RC.
.

it's only a mistake if i forget what you said you want to do to foxx's head with a baseball bat.

'feel' it?


If you go back and read the relevant posts, you will note that you 'foget' that it was Foxx who introduced the 'baseball bat' comparison to 'everyday' forces which the towers were built to take. The difference is obvious between concentrated-point baseball bat 'hit' and distributed-area wind loadings.

I merely did what ANY good science teacher might do, that is, extended Foxx's analogy in an 'illustration' (did you miss/forget that word too?) which would bring home to ANYONE imagining themselves being struck by a baseball bat and being subject to that SAME energy 'spread over' their whole body surface. An illustrative extension of a prior analogy by Foxx is hardly indicative of bloodthirsty intent, now is it?

So there's nothing for you to 'forget' after all, heh...since it was a figment of your own 'bloodthirsty' imagination, heh newt? hehehe. Again, Cheers! (i mean it!).

RC.
.

'does anybody want a drink before the war?' -skinhead o'connor

and, frankly, we don't need much 'imagination' to see the 'bloodthirsty'(the vampire drink?) reality of reality, eh?

cheers. and i mean it, as a man who has toasted with both assassins and saints, in a VERY REAL human fashion.

'you're only as good as your last performance'
RealityCheck
QUOTE (Christophera+Mar 9 2006, 03:06 AM)
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 9 2006, 02:43 AM)
QUOTE (Christophera+Mar 8 2006, 06:14 PM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 9 2006, 12:26 AM)
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 8 2006, 08:12 PM)
QUOTE (ScottS.+Mar 8 2006, 03:51 PM)

Yes paint me the robot.wink.gif
Didn't you try that before;)


Ok ScottS. Answer this simple question. Does the collapse of WTC7 resemble a controlled demolition? Just yes or no, I would like your honest opinion.

I suspect Steve will agree, but regradless, IMHO:

Visually it does to a certain extent, in that unlike the WTC 1 & 2 which OBVIOUSLY collapsed from the point of plane impact DOWN, the WTC 7 building fails down low.

What I've NEVER seen, and what I think would be QUITE NOTICABLE, since people were standing around WAITING for it to fall, would be the SHARP REPORTS from the HIGH EXPLOSIVES as the key supports were cut.
That I have NEVER heard.

Nor do I SEE any obvious signs of DEMOLITION.

And so no, it doesn't APPEAR from an AUDIO/VISUAL point of view to be a CD.

Arthur

Arthur,

You make a point I've made before, but I related it specifically to cutting steel core columns.

You say "supports", well I know there was a concrete core, so you are half right.

IF there were steel core columns THEN the sharp reports would be heard exactly as you say.

Since there was a concrete core (with C4 coated rebar in it, floors layered with it too), the explosions could be contained by very carefully engineered charges perfectly placed and distributed which would all but eliminate gas jets that also make a sharper noise. Since there was a concrete core, all of the concrete could fall immediatly enabling free fall. Since the floors were layered with C4, everything in the building was pulverized and the floors cut the interior box columns just ahead of the core which levered out the interior box columns that in turn pushed out the perimeter walls ni segments or pieces.

Since there was a cold war, we developed the C4 coated rebar as a self destruct technology for sub bases and missle silos.

Christophera,
Do you have any proof at all for the C4 idea?


The demolition is the proof. You can't make it happen any other way.

All the photos you see show a demolition so sophisticated that we argue about what it was.

The lower portion here is literally blowing up.

User posted image
http://algoxy.com/psych/images/wtc341coreblast.jpg

Locate/align the blast with this earlier photo.

User posted image
http://algoxy.com/psych/images/wtc32.1corealign.jpg


Hi Chris. I can see that the majority of the building rubble has JUST THEN 'hit ground'. You will note that the 'horizontal-cloud expulsions have only JUST begun to be expelled SIDEWAYS along the ground. Since those clouds are being driven OUT SIDEWAYS, wouldn't SOME of that expelled gases/dust be expected to ALSO be expelled BACK UP like that as well from the central part of that rubble pile?

This is the same thing that should be expected to happen (and did) when the TOP section floors/hat-truss etc fell into the bottom section....some stuff got expelled SIDEWAYS and some stuff BACK UP (until the 'wake suction' of the PROGRESSIVE descent of that mass 'sucked down' some of that previously ejected stuff).

Reasonable?

RC.
.
shagster
QUOTE (Christophera+Mar 9 2006, 03:26 AM)
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 9 2006, 03:06 AM)
Looks like there isn't an antenna on the left either.  Must have been an early photo.

I don't know how you conclude that. The tower top can't be seen in my photo.

User posted image

There's a sliver of light along the top. Hard to tell. I don't see any interruption of light at the top, so I assume the antenna isn't there. It's probably an early photo considering how empty the towers look.

Christophera
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 9 2006, 03:30 AM)
QUOTE (Christophera+Mar 9 2006, 03:06 AM)
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 9 2006, 02:43 AM)
QUOTE (Christophera+Mar 8 2006, 06:14 PM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 9 2006, 12:26 AM)
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 8 2006, 08:12 PM)
QUOTE (ScottS.+Mar 8 2006, 03:51 PM)

Yes paint me the robot.wink.gif
Didn't you try that before;)


Ok ScottS. Answer this simple question. Does the collapse of WTC7 resemble a controlled demolition? Just yes or no, I would like your honest opinion.

I suspect Steve will agree, but regradless, IMHO:

Visually it does to a certain extent, in that unlike the WTC 1 & 2 which OBVIOUSLY collapsed from the point of plane impact DOWN, the WTC 7 building fails down low.

What I've NEVER seen, and what I think would be QUITE NOTICABLE, since people were standing around WAITING for it to fall, would be the SHARP REPORTS from the HIGH EXPLOSIVES as the key supports were cut.
That I have NEVER heard.

Nor do I SEE any obvious signs of DEMOLITION.

And so no, it doesn't APPEAR from an AUDIO/VISUAL point of view to be a CD.

Arthur

Arthur,

You make a point I've made before, but I related it specifically to cutting steel core columns.

You say "supports", well I know there was a concrete core, so you are half right.

IF there were steel core columns THEN the sharp reports would be heard exactly as you say.

Since there was a concrete core (with C4 coated rebar in it, floors layered with it too), the explosions could be contained by very carefully engineered charges perfectly placed and distributed which would all but eliminate gas jets that also make a sharper noise. Since there was a concrete core, all of the concrete could fall immediatly enabling free fall. Since the floors were layered with C4, everything in the building was pulverized and the floors cut the interior box columns just ahead of the core which levered out the interior box columns that in turn pushed out the perimeter walls ni segments or pieces.

Since there was a cold war, we developed the C4 coated rebar as a self destruct technology for sub bases and missle silos.

Christophera,
Do you have any proof at all for the C4 idea?


The demolition is the proof. You can't make it happen any other way.

All the photos you see show a demolition so sophisticated that we argue about what it was.

The lower portion here is literally blowing up.

User posted image
http://algoxy.com/psych/images/wtc341coreblast.jpg

Locate/align the blast with this earlier photo.

User posted image
http://algoxy.com/psych/images/wtc32.1corealign.jpg


Hi Chris. I can see that the majority of the building rubble has JUST THEN 'hit ground'. You will note that the 'horizontal-cloud expulsions have onlu JUST begun to be expelled SIDEWAYS along the ground. Since those clouds are being driven OUT SIDEWAYS, wouldn't SOME of that expelled gases/dust be expected to ALSO be expelled BACK UP like that as well from the central part of that rubble pile?

RC.
.

I don't know how familiar you are with high explosives and the relative velocity that is imparted to particulate that was a part of mineral based material.

The rule is simple and you will grasp it immediately.

If it doesn't have mass, it won't go very far.

Meaning the plume at 70 degrees from horizontal has lots of gravel in it. Yes, it will go up, but not with velocity. IE. the pyroclastic dust flow, fine dust, it goes up with heat.
Christophera
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 9 2006, 03:33 AM)
QUOTE (Christophera+Mar 9 2006, 03:26 AM)
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 9 2006, 03:06 AM)
Looks like there isn't an antenna on the left either.  Must have been an early photo.

I don't know how you conclude that. The tower top can't be seen in my photo.

User posted image

There's a sliver of light along the top. Hard to tell. I don't see any interruption of light at the top, so I assume the antenna isn't there. It's probably an early photo considering how empty the towers look.

Notice the angle formed by the top of the right tower, WTC 2 and the frame of the image. The same angle exists between the top of WTC 1 and the frame but you can't see it as it is cut off.
RealityCheck
QUOTE (Christophera+Mar 9 2006, 03:34 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 9 2006, 03:30 AM)
QUOTE (Christophera+Mar 9 2006, 03:06 AM)
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 9 2006, 02:43 AM)
QUOTE (Christophera+Mar 8 2006, 06:14 PM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 9 2006, 12:26 AM)
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 8 2006, 08:12 PM)
QUOTE (ScottS.+Mar 8 2006, 03:51 PM)

Yes paint me the robot.wink.gif
Didn't you try that before;)


Ok ScottS. Answer this simple question. Does the collapse of WTC7 resemble a controlled demolition? Just yes or no, I would like your honest opinion.

I suspect Steve will agree, but regradless, IMHO:

Visually it does to a certain extent, in that unlike the WTC 1 & 2 which OBVIOUSLY collapsed from the point of plane impact DOWN, the WTC 7 building fails down low.

What I've NEVER seen, and what I think would be QUITE NOTICABLE, since people were standing around WAITING for it to fall, would be the SHARP REPORTS from the HIGH EXPLOSIVES as the key supports were cut.
That I have NEVER heard.

Nor do I SEE any obvious signs of DEMOLITION.

And so no, it doesn't APPEAR from an AUDIO/VISUAL point of view to be a CD.

Arthur

Arthur,

You make a point I've made before, but I related it specifically to cutting steel core columns.

You say "supports", well I know there was a concrete core, so you are half right.

IF there were steel core columns THEN the sharp reports would be heard exactly as you say.

Since there was a concrete core (with C4 coated rebar in it, floors layered with it too), the explosions could be contained by very carefully engineered charges perfectly placed and distributed which would all but eliminate gas jets that also make a sharper noise. Since there was a concrete core, all of the concrete could fall immediatly enabling free fall. Since the floors were layered with C4, everything in the building was pulverized and the floors cut the interior box columns just ahead of the core which levered out the interior box columns that in turn pushed out the perimeter walls ni segments or pieces.

Since there was a cold war, we developed the C4 coated rebar as a self destruct technology for sub bases and missle silos.

Christophera,
Do you have any proof at all for the C4 idea?


The demolition is the proof. You can't make it happen any other way.

All the photos you see show a demolition so sophisticated that we argue about what it was.

The lower portion here is literally blowing up.

User posted image
http://algoxy.com/psych/images/wtc341coreblast.jpg

Locate/align the blast with this earlier photo.

User posted image
http://algoxy.com/psych/images/wtc32.1corealign.jpg


Hi Chris. I can see that the majority of the building rubble has JUST THEN 'hit ground'. You will note that the 'horizontal-cloud expulsions have onlu JUST begun to be expelled SIDEWAYS along the ground. Since those clouds are being driven OUT SIDEWAYS, wouldn't SOME of that expelled gases/dust be expected to ALSO be expelled BACK UP like that as well from the central part of that rubble pile?

RC.
.

I don't know how familiar you are with high explosives and the relative velocity tha is imparted to particulate that was a part of mineral baed material.

The rule is simple and you will grasp it immediately.

If it doesn't have mass if won't go very far.

Meaning the plume at 70 degree from horizontal has lots of gravel in it. Yes, it will go up, but not with velocity. IE. the pyroclastic dust flow.


Hi Chris. I can imagine those 'hot winds' being driven by mass-ground contact compression would be as strong as cyclonic winds. So the 'ejecta' is ALSO 'riding' along the pressure-blast streams before 'pluming out'. This is very common in 'volcanic' gas-explosions with 'entrained' materials NOT needing to be 'massive' to go long distances (evidence ultra-lighteweight' PUMICE materials riding up along with those 'columns' of 'explosive' hot-gas/dust expulsions). But in any case, such sudden pressure-released 'blasts' will entrain MUCH material/chunks of varying size/density.

RC.
.
metamars
QUOTE (Christophera+Mar 9 2006, 01:13 AM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 8 2006, 03:27 PM)
QUOTE (metamars+Mar 8 2006, 11:04 AM)
How can this photo:


http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/wtcsilouette.jpg

User posted image

possibly be real? Since when can we see through steel columns and drywall interiors, just because the sun is behind the building??

C'mon, guys.

Because its partly an optical illusion.

You are SO FAR AWAY, that much detail is lost, you know, like the floors.

We also don't know WHEN this was taken, there may NOT have been much, if any interior drywall.

But so many of the key features are there and are as expected that to ASSUME its a fake makes no sense.

Look, I found it on a CT'ers site and posted it simply because I'd not seen it before. We've already SEEN his ability to with graphics (CRUDE AT BEST) so to think he doctored this picture is downright SILLY.

But it doesn't surprise me any longer.

ANYTHING that doesn't agree with your CONSPIRACY oriented view is IMMEDIATELY branded as suspect.

Also the MANNER in which you approach everything has become downright funny.

HOW CAN XXXX POSSIBLY BE TRUE SINCE WE CAN SEE YYYYY IN A SINGLE PICTURE?????

Its like Gordon going on and on about the "theory being invalid" because the "core collapsed first" and this is based on a single view of the towers which APPARENTLY shows the Antenna attached to the core falling into the tower.

But you have to look at the collapse from MULTIPLE ANGLES to realize that the TRUTH is the tower is simply TILTING away from the camera in the earlier view, thus making it APPEAR as if the antenna is falling before the tower does.

Arthur

Arthur is right. My photoshop skills are crude at best. And your comment about the distance from the tower making it "see through" is correct too.

With regard to the antenna falling first, it did.

On 9-11 I was watching a live feed from a helicopter and I saw the roofing material sink in a rectangle that matched the core shape. But the core fell from a point 20 or so floors down from the top, not from the bottom.

Either the buildings were really as empty as these photos make them appear, or they were not.


If they were not, and it really was just an optical illusion, then we should be able to find lots and lots of such photos of many other skyscrapers, as well as snapping some ourselves. If you claim that ONLY the WTC towers have ever exhibited such an optical illusion, than I have to rank that idea on par with the 'Amazing Bellows', 'Diesel Engine Fireball', etc., etc.


If the buildings were this empty, I still believe they wouldn't look like this, even with any chance play of light and camera angle. Thus, I still believe the photo is a fake, though I welcome anybody to prove me wrong. It's not like it makes a whole heck of a lot of difference to me, contrary to adoucette's insinuations.


It's not clear to me that an optical illusion based on light going through one side of an essentially empty building and exiting another would support any version of collapse.....

Christophera
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 9 2006, 03:45 AM)
QUOTE (Christophera+Mar 9 2006, 03:34 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 9 2006, 03:30 AM)
QUOTE (Christophera+Mar 9 2006, 03:06 AM)
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 9 2006, 02:43 AM)
QUOTE (Christophera+Mar 8 2006, 06:14 PM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 9 2006, 12:26 AM)
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 8 2006, 08:12 PM)
QUOTE (ScottS.+Mar 8 2006, 03:51 PM)

Yes paint me the robot.wink.gif
Didn't you try that before;)


Ok ScottS. Answer this simple question. Does the collapse of WTC7 resemble a controlled demolition? Just yes or no, I would like your honest opinion.

I suspect Steve will agree, but regradless, IMHO:

Visually it does to a certain extent, in that unlike the WTC 1 & 2 which OBVIOUSLY collapsed from the point of plane impact DOWN, the WTC 7 building fails down low.

What I've NEVER seen, and what I think would be QUITE NOTICABLE, since people were standing around WAITING for it to fall, would be the SHARP REPORTS from the HIGH EXPLOSIVES as the key supports were cut.
That I have NEVER heard.

Nor do I SEE any obvious signs of DEMOLITION.

And so no, it doesn't APPEAR from an AUDIO/VISUAL point of view to be a CD.

Arthur

Arthur,

You make a point I've made before, but I related it specifically to cutting steel core columns.

You say "supports", well I know there was a concrete core, so you are half right.

IF there were steel core columns THEN the sharp reports would be heard exactly as you say.

Since there was a concrete core (with C4 coated rebar in it, floors layered with it too), the explosions could be contained by very carefully engineered charges perfectly placed and distributed which would all but eliminate gas jets that also make a sharper noise. Since there was a concrete core, all of the concrete could fall immediatly enabling free fall. Since the floors were layered with C4, everything in the building was pulverized and the floors cut the interior box columns just ahead of the core which levered out the interior box columns that in turn pushed out the perimeter walls ni segments or pieces.

Since there was a cold war, we developed the C4 coated rebar as a self destruct technology for sub bases and missle silos.

Christophera,
Do you have any proof at all for the C4 idea?


The demolition is the proof. You can't make it happen any other way.

All the photos you see show a demolition so sophisticated that we argue about what it was.

The lower portion here is literally blowing up.

User posted image
http://algoxy.com/psych/images/wtc341coreblast.jpg

Locate/align the blast with this earlier photo.

User posted image
http://algoxy.com/psych/images/wtc32.1corealign.jpg


Hi Chris. I can see that the majority of the building rubble has JUST THEN 'hit ground'. You will note that the 'horizontal-cloud expulsions have onlu JUST begun to be expelled SIDEWAYS along the ground. Since those clouds are being driven OUT SIDEWAYS, wouldn't SOME of that expelled gases/dust be expected to ALSO be expelled BACK UP like that as well from the central part of that rubble pile?

RC.
.

I don't know how familiar you are with high explosives and the relative velocity tha is imparted to particulate that was a part of mineral baed material.

The rule is simple and you will grasp it immediately.

If it doesn't have mass if won't go very far.

Meaning the plume at 70 degree from horizontal has lots of gravel in it. Yes, it will go up, but not with velocity. IE. the pyroclastic dust flow.


Hi Chris. I can imagine those 'hot winds' being driven by mass-ground contact compression would be as strong as cyclonic winds. So the 'ejecta' is ALSO 'riding' along the pressure-blast streams before 'pluming out'. This is very common in 'volcanic' gas-explosions with 'entrained' materials NOT needing to be 'massive' to go long distances (evidence ultra-lighteweight' PUMICE materials riding up along with those 'columns' of 'explosive' hot-gas/dust expulsions.

RC.
.

Yes, you've got it.

The fine stuff will first be driven directly by high pressure gases, then ride along mixed with the heavier particulate, then slow down and spread out to be carried by reflected gas expansions off the ground. It's fairly proximal but with a big blast that is also delayed, it will get big and stay that way in the pyroclastic mode.
Commen sense
QUOTE (Christophera+Mar 9 2006, 03:34 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 9 2006, 03:30 AM)
QUOTE (Christophera+Mar 9 2006, 03:06 AM)
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 9 2006, 02:43 AM)
QUOTE (Christophera+Mar 8 2006, 06:14 PM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 9 2006, 12:26 AM)
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 8 2006, 08:12 PM)
QUOTE (ScottS.+Mar 8 2006, 03:51 PM)

Yes paint me the robot.wink.gif
Didn't you try that before;)


Ok ScottS. Answer this simple question. Does the collapse of WTC7 resemble a controlled demolition? Just yes or no, I would like your honest opinion.

I suspect Steve will agree, but regradless, IMHO:

Visually it does to a certain extent, in that unlike the WTC 1 & 2 which OBVIOUSLY collapsed from the point of plane impact DOWN, the WTC 7 building fails down low.

What I've NEVER seen, and what I think would be QUITE NOTICABLE, since people were standing around WAITING for it to fall, would be the SHARP REPORTS from the HIGH EXPLOSIVES as the key supports were cut.
That I have NEVER heard.

Nor do I SEE any obvious signs of DEMOLITION.

And so no, it doesn't APPEAR from an AUDIO/VISUAL point of view to be a CD.

Arthur

Arthur,

You make a point I've made before, but I related it specifically to cutting steel core columns.

You say "supports", well I know there was a concrete core, so you are half right.

IF there were steel core columns THEN the sharp reports would be heard exactly as you say.

Since there was a concrete core (with C4 coated rebar in it, floors layered with it too), the explosions could be contained by very carefully engineered charges perfectly placed and distributed which would all but eliminate gas jets that also make a sharper noise. Since there was a concrete core, all of the concrete could fall immediatly enabling free fall. Since the floors were layered with C4, everything in the building was pulverized and the floors cut the interior box columns just ahead of the core which levered out the interior box columns that in turn pushed out the perimeter walls ni segments or pieces.

Since there was a cold war, we developed the C4 coated rebar as a self destruct technology for sub bases and missle silos.

Christophera,
Do you have any proof at all for the C4 idea?


The demolition is the proof. You can't make it happen any other way.

All the photos you see show a demolition so sophisticated that we argue about what it was.

The lower portion here is literally blowing up.

User posted image
http://algoxy.com/psych/images/wtc341coreblast.jpg

Locate/align the blast with this earlier photo.

User posted image
http://algoxy.com/psych/images/wtc32.1corealign.jpg


Hi Chris. I can see that the majority of the building rubble has JUST THEN 'hit ground'. You will note that the 'horizontal-cloud expulsions have onlu JUST begun to be expelled SIDEWAYS along the ground. Since those clouds are being driven OUT SIDEWAYS, wouldn't SOME of that expelled gases/dust be expected to ALSO be expelled BACK UP like that as well from the central part of that rubble pile?

RC.
.

I don't know how familiar you are with high explosives and the relative velocity tha is imparted to particulate that was a part of mineral baed material.

The rule is simple and you will grasp it immediately.

If it doesn't have mass if won't go very far.

Meaning the plume at 70 degree from horizontal has lots of gravel in it. Yes, it will go up, but not with velocity. IE. the pyroclastic dust flow.

I'm sure you're more familiar with mental illness than high explosives. Stop the lies.
newton
QUOTE (Christophera+Mar 9 2006, 03:39 AM)
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 9 2006, 03:33 AM)
QUOTE (Christophera+Mar 9 2006, 03:26 AM)
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 9 2006, 03:06 AM)
Looks like there isn't an antenna on the left either.  Must have been an early photo.

I don't know how you conclude that. The tower top can't be seen in my photo.

User posted image

There's a sliver of light along the top. Hard to tell. I don't see any interruption of light at the top, so I assume the antenna isn't there. It's probably an early photo considering how empty the towers look.

Notice the angle formed by the top of the right tower, WTC 2 and the frame of the image. The same angle exists between the top of WTC 1 and the frame but you can't see it as it is cut off.

i'm tired. honestly. lol.

why not find OTHER pictures form the same time frame, and AGREE on the answer to your dispute?

it's not like one of those persistant 'nebulous' questions that surround the issue.

you would do us ALL a favour by following your lines of logic to their eventual (theoretical) conclusions, using all the resources of the web and your local library.

what you are discussing is relevent, but you are BOTH making conclusions on insufficient data.

an obvious mistake.

much like killing a guy, because you saw him killing someone else, when in fact, the someone else was a rabid criminal animal who was about to press the 'red button'and hence murder thousands of innocents.

this is my 'wild card' for the bush admin. PROVE to me(a hard guy to 'prove to') that there is a BIGGER threat than 'al-ciada', and i will JOIN your frickin' evil cause.

this single picture doesn't even matter in the bigger scheme of things. the simple newtonian physics of the collapse and the ejecta ought to suffice, once the CORRECT NUMBERS are plugged in to the formula.
adoucette
QUOTE (metamars+Mar 8 2006, 11:48 PM)
Either the buildings were really as empty as these photos make them appear, or they were not.


If they were not, and it really was just an optical illusion, then we should be able to find lots and lots of such photos of many other skyscrapers, as well as snapping some ourselves. If you claim that ONLY the WTC towers have ever exhibited such an optical illusion, than I have to rank that idea on par with the 'Amazing Bellows', 'Diesel Engine Fireball', etc., etc.


If the buildings were this empty, I still believe they wouldn't look like this, even with any chance play of light and camera angle. Thus, I still believe the photo is a fake, though I welcome anybody to prove me wrong. It's not like it makes a whole heck of a lot of difference to me, contrary to adoucette's insinuations.


It's not clear to me that an optical illusion based on light going through one side of an essentially empty building and exiting another would support any version of collapse.....

They ARE as empty as they appear.

The towers WERE mostly AIR.

Big surprise, that's what you RENT is EMPTY SPACE, not STEEL and CONCRETE.

The WHOLE IDEA of the structure was to MAXIMISE available space and MINIMISE structure.

Its OBVIOUS they succeeded.

user posted image

Is this fake too????

The interior matches the plans.

The staggered elevator shafts even match the drawing in the NIST report.

Why should you be able to find lots of photos of other skyscrapers? A ) the sun angle and the camera angle are VERY problematic. B ) other skyscrapers are designed differently, in case you haven't noticed, the WTC Towers were somewhat unique.


Arthur

reasonwhy
QUOTE (ScottS+Mar 8 2006, 07:05 PM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 9 2006, 01:43 AM)
QUOTE (brian+Mar 8 2006, 09:21 PM)
Of course you are a pilot.


I was posting on airdisaster.com before 9-11

I guess I set up the lie that I was a pilot over there in ANTICIPATION of needing it for a CONSPIRACY about an event that had not yet happened.

MORON

Arthur

Interesting post adoucette. Seems like Sagadevan is a scammer of some sort.

I guess others researched this guy Sagadevan and came to similar conclusions

Seems the guy doesn't know what he's talking about nor has he flown a plane in 20 years.
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread185820/pg1

Sagadevan doesn't seem to be credible hit in other forums either.
Like rec.travel.air or rec.aviation.piloting
....Or maybe these are all spooks/shills. wink.gif
Seems brian might want to rethink his sources.

Well ScottS,

Did you check out this forumns infamouse Pilots Story?

http://www.airdisaster.com/forums/showpost...781&postcount=3

It States Arthur was a member since November 2001. Join Date: 11-13-2001

Now read Arthurs post again.
RealityCheck
QUOTE (Christophera+Mar 9 2006, 03:51 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 9 2006, 03:45 AM)
QUOTE (Christophera+Mar 9 2006, 03:34 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 9 2006, 03:30 AM)
QUOTE (Christophera+Mar 9 2006, 03:06 AM)
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 9 2006, 02:43 AM)
QUOTE (Christophera+Mar 8 2006, 06:14 PM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 9 2006, 12:26 AM)
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 8 2006, 08:12 PM)
QUOTE (ScottS.+Mar 8 2006, 03:51 PM)

Yes paint me the robot.wink.gif
Didn't you try that before;)


Ok ScottS. Answer this simple question. Does the collapse of WTC7 resemble a controlled demolition? Just yes or no, I would like your honest opinion.

I suspect Steve will agree, but regradless, IMHO:

Visually it does to a certain extent, in that unlike the WTC 1 & 2 which OBVIOUSLY collapsed from the point of plane impact DOWN, the WTC 7 building fails down low.

What I've NEVER seen, and what I think would be QUITE NOTICABLE, since people were standing around WAITING for it to fall, would be the SHARP REPORTS from the HIGH EXPLOSIVES as the key supports were cut.
That I have NEVER heard.

Nor do I SEE any obvious signs of DEMOLITION.

And so no, it doesn't APPEAR from an AUDIO/VISUAL point of view to be a CD.

Arthur

Arthur,

You make a point I've made before, but I related it specifically to cutting steel core columns.

You say "supports", well I know there was a concrete core, so you are half right.

IF there were steel core columns THEN the sharp reports would be heard exactly as you say.

Since there was a concrete core (with C4 coated rebar in it, floors layered with it too), the explosions could be contained by very carefully engineered charges perfectly placed and distributed which would all but eliminate gas jets that also make a sharper noise. Since there was a concrete core, all of the concrete could fall immediatly enabling free fall. Since the floors were layered with C4, everything in the building was pulverized and the floors cut the interior box columns just ahead of the core which levered out the interior box columns that in turn pushed out the perimeter walls ni segments or pieces.

Since there was a cold war, we developed the C4 coated rebar as a self destruct technology for sub bases and missle silos.

Christophera,
Do you have any proof at all for the C4 idea?


The demolition is the proof. You can't make it happen any other way.

All the photos you see show a demolition so sophisticated that we argue about what it was.

The lower portion here is literally blowing up.

User posted image
http://algoxy.com/psych/images/wtc341coreblast.jpg

Locate/align the blast with this earlier photo.

User posted image
http://algoxy.com/psych/images/wtc32.1corealign.jpg


Hi Chris. I can see that the majority of the building rubble has JUST THEN 'hit ground'. You will note that the 'horizontal-cloud expulsions have onlu JUST begun to be expelled SIDEWAYS along the ground. Since those clouds are being driven OUT SIDEWAYS, wouldn't SOME of that expelled gases/dust be expected to ALSO be expelled BACK UP like that as well from the central part of that rubble pile?

RC.
.

I don't know how familiar you are with high explosives and the relative velocity tha is imparted to particulate that was a part of mineral baed material.

The rule is simple and you will grasp it immediately.

If it doesn't have mass if won't go very far.

Meaning the plume at 70 degree from horizontal has lots of gravel in it. Yes, it will go up, but not with velocity. IE. the pyroclastic dust flow.


Hi Chris. I can imagine those 'hot winds' being driven by mass-ground contact compression would be as strong as cyclonic winds. So the 'ejecta' is ALSO 'riding' along the pressure-blast streams before 'pluming out'. This is very common in 'volcanic' gas-explosions with 'entrained' materials NOT needing to be 'massive' to go long distances (evidence ultra-lighteweight' PUMICE materials riding up along with those 'columns' of 'explosive' hot-gas/dust expulsions.

RC.
.

Yes, you've got it.

The fine stuff will first be driven directly by high pressure gases, then ride along mixed with the heavier particulate, then slow down and spread out to be carried by reflected gas expansions off the ground. It's fairly proximal but with a big blast that is also delayed, it will get big and stay that way in the pyroclastic mode.



But if everything we observe can be DRIVEN by the HUGE energies of gravity-collapse 'ground-impact' of the HOT and HUGE rubble mass, why are we even speaking of explosive charges? Occam's Razor has been satisfied. Why introduce UNNECESSARY factors to explain what is observed?

RC.
.
Foxx
QUOTE
by Schneiby
You call this arguing? I call it intervention.


HAhhhhh !!!, the shill outs himself again. biggrin.gif

For those unaware... the tactics of disinformation are taught at entry level to the New World Order school.

Surely you will have noted the increased spamming of this thread over the last month. The shills are working overtime... a constant barrage of post after post of repeating a mantra that less and less people are buying... that is why they become desperate.

Explosions are turned into 'transformers' exploding. Bet you didn't know they had all those transformers ringing the building and wired together in such a way that they popped sequentially (so coincidentally exactly in the manner that demolition explosives are set).

Does the author of the 'debunking school' offer any evidence whatsoever that these transformers were even above ground in the towers?

Usually transformers will be located in the service areas of buildings... basement levels or mechanical floors... not on the office floors.

Does this concern the author at all? Not in the least. Why should it? His purpose is not logic and scientific evidence. Simply to intervene.

He has found something that can explode (apart from explosives) so he thinks....

"aaa..HA!. I have 'debunked' the explosives plausibility".

Conveniently, failing to provide any evidence whatsoever that the building transformers were anywhere near the locations reported by firemen.

Is the author interested in doing any research in this area in order to provide us the locations of transformers in the building? NO...

like most conspiracy theorists, who are more interested in supporting their hare-brained theories than any facts, he conveniently dismisses truth in favour of ANYTHING no matter how wild which seems to support his theory.

Here's another one from the same author...

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
by Schneiby
You call this arguing? I call it intervention.


HAhhhhh !!!, the shill outs himself again. biggrin.gif

For those unaware... the tactics of disinformation are taught at entry level to the New World Order school.

Surely you will have noted the increased spamming of this thread over the last month. The shills are working overtime... a constant barrage of post after post of repeating a mantra that less and less people are buying... that is why they become desperate.

Explosions are turned into 'transformers' exploding. Bet you didn't know they had all those transformers ringing the building and wired together in such a way that they popped sequentially (so coincidentally exactly in the manner that demolition explosives are set).

Does the author of the 'debunking school' offer any evidence whatsoever that these transformers were even above ground in the towers?

Usually transformers will be located in the service areas of buildings... basement levels or mechanical floors... not on the office floors.

Does this concern the author at all? Not in the least. Why should it? His purpose is not logic and scientific evidence. Simply to intervene.

He has found something that can explode (apart from explosives) so he thinks....

"aaa..HA!. I have 'debunked' the explosives plausibility".

Conveniently, failing to provide any evidence whatsoever that the building transformers were anywhere near the locations reported by firemen.

Is the author interested in doing any research in this area in order to provide us the locations of transformers in the building? NO...

like most conspiracy theorists, who are more interested in supporting their hare-brained theories than any facts, he conveniently dismisses truth in favour of ANYTHING no matter how wild which seems to support his theory.

Here's another one from the same author...

"There was most certainly concrete FLOORS. a measly 2 inches"


You note that he posts nice pictures from the NIST report, but apparently can't be bothered to read the report as a whole...

The concrete used in the truss floors was lightweight concrete 4" thick, and the concrete floors within the core were 5" heavier aggregrate concrete...

...but like the transformers fairy tale, who cares about those pesky details? Measly 2 inch floors sounds like they will be less structurally sound. Hey... that works (for his theory).

Or how about this one...

QUOTE
Originally posted by the Scheister
"Remember, this force is being transmitted down a rigid column of concrete with rigid columns of steel inside it; that means that it shatters rather than yielding".


Tell me... will the real Slim Shady, Please stand up...
Please stand up...Please stand up?

Now he busily engages in conversations with another proponent of concrete cores... page after page...

well, it does accomplish the task, doesn't it?...

To detour, detract, avoid and circumvent, relevant issues. These are common tactics used by disinformationists - don't be fooled.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Originally posted by the Scheister
"Remember, this force is being transmitted down a rigid column of concrete with rigid columns of steel inside it; that means that it shatters rather than yielding".


Tell me... will the real Slim Shady, Please stand up...
Please stand up...Please stand up?

Now he busily engages in conversations with another proponent of concrete cores... page after page...

well, it does accomplish the task, doesn't it?...

To detour, detract, avoid and circumvent, relevant issues. These are common tactics used by disinformationists - don't be fooled.


<> Before commencing to debunk, prepare your equipment. Equipment needed: one armchair.

<> Put on the right face. Cultivate a condescending air that suggests that your personal opinions are backed by the full faith and credit of God. Employ vague, subjective, dismissive terms such as "ridiculous" or "trivial" in a manner that suggests they have the full force of scientific authority.

<> Portray science not as an open-ended process of discovery but as a holy war against unruly hordes of quackery- worshipping infidels. Since in war the ends justify the means, you may fudge, stretch or violate the scientific method, or even omit it entirely, in the name of defending the scientific method.

<> Keep your arguments as abstract and theoretical as possible. This will "send the message" that accepted theory overrides any actual evidence that might challenge it--and that therefore no such evidence is worth examining.

<> Reinforce the popular misconception that certain subjects are inherently unscientific. In other words, deliberately confuse the *process* of science with the *content* of science. (Someone may, of course, object that since science is a universal approach to truth-seeking it must be neutral to subject matter; hence, only the investigative *process* can be scientifically responsible or irresponsible. If that happens, dismiss such objections using a method employed successfully by generations of politicians: simply reassure everyone that "there is no contradiction here!")

<> Arrange to have your message echoed by persons of authority. The degree to which you can stretch the truth is directly proportional to the prestige of your mouthpiece.

<> Always refer to unorthodox statements as "claims," which are "touted," and to your own assertions as "facts," which are "stated."

<> Avoid examining the actual evidence. This allows you to say with impunity, "I have seen absolutely no evidence to support such ridiculous claims!" (Note that this technique has withstood the test of time, and dates back at least to the age of Galileo. By simply refusing to look through his telescope, the ecclesiastical authorities bought the Church over three centuries' worth of denial free and clear!)

<> If examining the evidence becomes unavoidable, report back that "there is nothing new here!" If confronted by a watertight body of evidence that has survived the most rigorous tests, simply dismiss it as being "too pat."

<> Equate the necessary skeptical component of science with *all* of science. Emphasize the narrow, stringent, rigorous and critical elements of science to the exclusion of intuition, inspiration, exploration and integration. If anyone objects, accuse them of viewing science in exclusively fuzzy, subjective or metaphysical terms.

<> Insist that the progress of science depends on explaining the unknown in terms of the known. In other words, science equals reductionism. You can apply the reductionist approach in any situation by discarding more and more and more evidence until what little is left can finally be explained entirely in terms of established knowledge.

<> Downplay the fact that free inquiry and legitimate disagreement are a normal part of science.

<> Make yourself available to media producers who seek "balanced reporting" of unorthodox views. However, agree to participate in only those presentations whose time constraints and a-priori bias preclude such luxuries as discussion, debate and cross-examination.

<> At every opportunity reinforce the notion that what is familiar is necessarily rational. The unfamiliar is therefore irrational, and consequently inadmissible as evidence.

<> State categorically that the unconventional may be dismissed as, at best, an honest misinterpretation of the conventional.

<> Characterize your opponents as "uncritical believers." Summarily dismiss the notion that debunkery itself betrays uncritical belief, albeit in the status quo.

<> Maintain that in investigations of unconventional phenomena, a single flaw invalidates the whole. In conventional contexts, however, you may sagely remind the world that, "after all, situations are complex and human beings are imperfect."

<> "Occam's Razor," or the "principle of parsimony," says the correct explanation of a mystery will usually involve the simplest fundamental principles. Insist, therefore, that the most familiar explanation is by definition the simplest! Imply strongly that Occam's Razor is not merely a philosophical rule of thumb but an immutable law.

<> Discourage any study of history that may reveal today's dogma as yesterday's heresy. Likewise, avoid discussing the many historical, philosophical and spiritual parallels between science and democracy.

<> Since the public tends to be unclear about the distinction between evidence and proof, do your best to help maintain this murkiness. If absolute proof is lacking, state categorically that "there is no evidence!"

<> If sufficient evidence has been presented to warrant further investigation of an unusual phenomenon, argue that "evidence alone proves nothing!" Ignore the fact that preliminary evidence is not supposed to prove *any*thing.

<> In any case, imply that proof precedes evidence. This will eliminate the possibility of initiating any meaningful process of investigation--particularly if no criteria of proof have yet been established for the phenomenon in question.

<> Insist that criteria of proof cannot possibly be established for phenomena that do not exist!

<> Although science is not supposed to tolerate vague or double standards, always insist that unconventional phenomena must be judged by a separate, yet ill-defined, set of scientific rules. Do this by declaring that "extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence"-- but take care never to define where the "ordinary" ends and the "extraordinary" begins. This will allow you to manufacture an infinitely receding evidential horizon; i.e., to define "extraordinary" evidence as that which lies just out of reach at any point in time.

<> In the same manner, insist on classes of evidence that are impossible to obtain. For example, declare that unidentified aerial phenomena may be considered real only if we can bring them into laboratories to strike them with hammers and analyze their physical properties. Disregard the accomplishments of the inferential sciences--astronomy, for example, which gets on just fine without bringing actual planets, stars, galaxies and black holes into its labs and striking them with hammers.

<> Practice debunkery-by-association. Lump together all phenomena popularly deemed paranormal and suggest that their proponents and researchers speak with a single voice. In this way you can indiscriminately drag material across disciplinary lines or from one case to another to support your views as needed. For example, if a claim having some superficial similarity to the one at hand has been (or is popularly assumed to have been) exposed as fraudulent, cite it as if it were an appropriate example. Then put on a gloating smile, lean back in your armchair and just say "I rest my case."

<> Use the word "imagination" as an epithet that applies only to seeing what's *not* there, and not to denying what *is* there.

<> If a significant number of people agree that they have observed something that violates the consensus reality, simply ascribe it to "mass hallucination." Avoid addressing the possibility that the consensus reality might itself constitute a mass hallucination.

<> Ridicule, ridicule, ridicule. It is far and away the single most chillingly effective weapon in the war against discovery and innovation. Ridicule has the unique power to make people of virtually any persuasion go completely unconscious in a twinkling. It fails to sway only those few who are of sufficiently independent mind not to buy into the kind of emotional consensus that ridicule provides.

<> By appropriate innuendo and example, imply that ridicule constitutes an essential feature of the scientific method that can raise the level of objectivity and dispassionateness with which any investigation is conducted.

<> If pressed about your novel interpretations of the scientific method, declare that "intellectual integrity is a subtle issue."

<> Imply that investigators of the unorthodox are zealots. Suggest that in order to investigate the existence of something one must first believe in it absolutely. Then demand that all such "true believers" know all the answers to their most puzzling questions in complete detail ahead of time. Convince people of your own sincerity by reassuring them that you yourself would "love to believe in these fantastic phenomena." Carefully sidestep the fact that science is not about believing or disbelieving, but about finding out.

<> Use "smoke and mirrors," i.e., obfuscation and illusion. Never forget that a slippery mixture of fact, opinion, innuendo, out-of-context information and outright lies will fool most of the people most of the time. As little as one part fact to ten parts B.S. will usually do the trick. (Some veteran debunkers use homeopathic dilutions of fact with remarkable success!) Cultivate the art of slipping back and forth between fact and fiction so undetectably that the flimsiest foundation of truth will always appear to firmly support your entire edifice of opinion.

<> Employ "TCP": Technically Correct Pseudo-refutation. Example: if someone remarks that all great truths began as blasphemies, respond immediately that not all blasphemies have become great truths. Because your response was technically correct, no one will notice that it did not really refute the original remark.

<> Trivialize the case by trivializing the entire field in question. Characterize the study of orthodox phenomena as deep and time-consuming, while deeming that of unorthodox phenomena so insubstantial as to demand nothing more than a scan of the tabloids. If pressed on this, simply say "but there's nothing there to study!" Characterize any serious investigator of the unorthodox as a "buff" or "freak," or as "self-styled"-- the media's favorite code-word for "bogus."

<> Remember that most people do not have sufficient time or expertise for careful discrimination, and tend to accept or reject the whole of an unfamiliar situation. So discredit the whole story by attempting to discredit *part* of the story. Here's how: a) take one element of a case completely out of context; cool.gif find something prosaic that hypothetically could explain it; c) declare that therefore that one element has been explained; d) call a press conference and announce to the world that the entire case has been explained!

<> Engage the services of a professional stage magician who can mimic the phenomenon in question; for example, ESP, psychokinesis or levitation. This will convince the public that the original claimants or witnesses to such phenomena must themselves have been (or been fooled by) talented stage magicians who hoaxed the original phenomenon in precisely the same way.

<> Find a prosaic phenomenon that, to the uninitiated, resembles the claimed phenomenon. Then suggest that the existence of the commonplace look-alike somehow forbids the existence of the genuine article. For example, imply that since people often see "faces" in rocks and clouds, the enigmatic Face on Mars must be a similar illusion and therefore cannot possibly be artificial.

<> When an unexplained phenomenon demonstrates evidence of intelligence (as in the case of the mysterious crop circles) focus exclusively on the mechanism that might have been wielded by the intelligence rather than the intelligence that might have wielded the mechanism. The more attention you devote to the mechanism, the more easily you can distract people from considering the possibility of non-ordinary intelligence.

<> Accuse investigators of unusual phenomena of believing in "invisible forces and extrasensory realities." If they should point out that the physical sciences have *always* dealt with invisible forces and extrasensory realities (gravity? electromagnetism? . . . ) respond with a condescending chuckle that this is "a naive interpretation of the facts."

<> Insist that western science is completely objective, and is based on no untestable assumptions, covert beliefs or ideological interests. If an unfamiliar or inexplicable phenomenon happens to be considred true and/or useful by a nonwestern or other traditional society, you may dismiss it out of hand as "ignorant misconception," "medieval superstition" or "fairy lore."

<> Label any poorly-understood phenomenon "occult," "fringe," "paranormal," "metaphysical," "mystical," "supernatural," or "new-age." This will get most mainstream scientists off the case immediately on purely emotional grounds. If you're lucky, this may delay any responsible investigation of such phenomena by decades or even centuries!

<> Ask questions that appear to contain generally-assumed knowledge that supports your views; for example, "why do no police officers, military pilots, air traffic controllers or psychiatrists report UFOs?" (If someone points out that they do, insist that those who do must be mentally unstable.)

<> Ask unanswerable questions based on arbitrary criteria of proof. For example, "if this claim were true, why haven't we seen it on TV?" or "in this or that scientific journal?" Never forget the mother of all such questions: "If UFOs are extraterrestrial, why haven't they landed on the White House lawn?"

<> Similarly, reinforce the popular fiction that our scientific knowledge is complete and finished. Do this by asserting that "if such-and-such were true, we would would already know about it!"

<> Remember that you can easily appear to refute anyone's claims by building "straw men" to demolish. One way to do this is to misquote them while preserving that convincing grain of truth; for example, by acting as if they have intended the extreme of any position they've taken. Another effective strategy with a long history of success is simply to mis- replicate their experiments--or to avoid replicating them at all on grounds that "to do so would be ridiculous or fruitless." To make the whole process even easier, respond not to their actual claims but to their claims as reported by the media, or as propagated in popular myth.

<> Insist that such-and-such unorthodox claim is not scientifically testable because no self-respecting grantmaking organization would fund such ridiculous tests.

<> Be selective. For example, if an unorthodox healing practice has failed to reverse a case of terminal illness you may deem it worthless--while taking care to avoid mentioning any of the shortcomings of conventional medicine.

<> Hold claimants responsible for the production values and editorial policies of any media or press that reports their claim. If an unusual or inexplicable event is reported in a sensationalized manner, hold this as proof that the event itself must have been without substance or worth.

<> When a witness or claimant states something in a manner that is scientifically imperfect, treat this as if it were not scientific at all. If the claimant is not a credentialed scientist, argue that his or her perceptions cannot possibly be objective.

<> If you're unable to attack the facts of the case, attack the participants--or the journalists who reported the case. *Ad- hominem* arguments, or personality attacks, are among the most powerful ways of swaying the public and avoiding the issue. For example, if investigators of the unorthodox have profited financially from activities connected with their research, accuse them of "profiting financially from activities connected with their research!" If their research, publishing, speaking tours and so forth, constitute their normal line of work or sole means of support, hold that fact as "conclusive proof that income is being realized from such activities!" If they have labored to achieve public recognition for their work, you may safely characterize them as "publicity seekers."

<> Fabricate supportive expertise as needed by quoting the opinions of those in fields popularly assumed to include the necessary knowledge. Astronomers, for example, may be trotted out as experts on the UFO question, although course credits in ufology have never been a prerequisite for a degree in astronomy.

<> Fabricate confessions. If a phenomenon stubbornly refuses to go away, set up a couple of colorful old geezers to claim they hoaxed it. The press and the public will always tend to view confessions as sincerely motivated, and will promptly abandon their critical faculties. After all, nobody wants to appear to lack compassion for self-confessed sinners.

<> Fabricate sources of disinformation. Claim that you've "found the person who started the rumor that such a phenomenon exists!"

<> Fabricate entire research projects. Declare that "these claims have been thoroughly discredited by the top experts in the field!" Do this whether or not such experts have ever actually studied the claims, or, for that matter, even exist.


http://members.aol.com/ddrasin/zen.html

But you don't find any of these tactics being employed by the science-minded gravity driven conspiracy supporters, do you?

Here's another priceles gem from this quack...

QUOTE
by the common scheister

He {Rodriguez}CONCLUDES from the fact that he heard and felt the shock AFTER the explosion that the explosion preceded the impact; however, this CONCLUSION is incorrect.

In fact, the shock of impact took over a second to make it from the impact site on the upper floors through the material of the building to the basement; the fuel explosion, however, made it in less than a second.

Thus, the fuel explosion shockwave arrived and blew the doors off the elevator shaft before the impact shockwave did.


Did someone say common sense? Did someone say science and physics?


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
by the common scheister

He {Rodriguez}CONCLUDES from the fact that he heard and felt the shock AFTER the explosion that the explosion preceded the impact; however, this CONCLUSION is incorrect.

In fact, the shock of impact took over a second to make it from the impact site on the upper floors through the material of the building to the basement; the fuel explosion, however, made it in less than a second.

Thus, the fuel explosion shockwave arrived and blew the doors off the elevator shaft before the impact shockwave did.


Did someone say common sense? Did someone say science and physics?


by ScottS

Notice the increased frustration.


Yes indeed... instead of real research the Cters who support the government fairy tale resort to name-calling, and 18 pt text, and page after page of copy/pastes of long previous quotes... attended at the end with a half-sentence smart-alec comment worthy of an adolescent.

But when evidence is presented, (which they have demanded for months)...

where are the pictures to support these witnesses...

QUOTE

WHY was there Molten Metal Under Ground Zero for Months after 9/11?

Molten metal flowed underneath ground zero for months after the Twin Towers collapsed:

An employee of New Jersey's Task Force One Urban Search and Rescue witnessed "Fires burn[ing and molten steel flow[ing] in the pile of ruins still settling beneath her feet." 

http://www.sas.upenn.edu/sasalum/newsltr/s...r2002/k911.html

The head of a team of scientists studying the potential health effects of 9/11, reported, "Fires are still actively burning and the smoke is very intense. In some pockets now being uncovered, they are finding molten steel." 

http://www.jhsph.edu/Publications/Special/Welch.htm

A public health advisor who arrived at Ground Zero on September 12, said that "feeling the heat" and "seeing the molten steel" there reminded him of a volcano.

http://www.neha.org/9-11%20report/index-The.html

New York firefighters recalled in a documentary film, "heat so intense they encountered rivers of molten steel." 

http://www.nypost.com/movies/19574.htm

According to a worker involved with the organizing of demolition, excavation and debris removal operations at ground zero, "Underground it was still so hot that molten metal dripped down the sides of the wall from Building 6." 

http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/lib...-11_commission/

An expert stated about World Trade Center building 7, "A combination of an uncontrolled fire and the structural damage might have been able to bring the building down, some engineers said. But that would not explain steel members in the debris pile that appear to have been PARTLY EVAPORATED in extraordinarily high temperatures" (pay-per-view).

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.htm...DA80994D9404482

Note that evaporation means conversion from a liquid to a gas; so the steel beams in building 7 were subjected to temperatures high enough to melt and evaporate them.

http://www.answers.com/evaporation&r=67

A reporter with rare access to the debris at ground zero "descended deep below street level to areas where underground fires still burned and steel flowed in molten streams."

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2002/07/77nwash.htm

The same journalist also refers to "the streams of molten metal that leaked from the hot cores and flowed down broken walls inside the foundation hole." (pages 31-32)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002E5QK...glance&n=283155

An engineer stated in the September 3, 2002 issue of The Structural Engineer, "They showed us many fascinating slides ranging from molten metal, which was still red hot weeks after the event."

http://web.archive.org/web/20030422113455/...002-NewYork.pdf

An Occupational Safety and Health Administration Officer at the Trade Center reported a fire truck 10 feet below the ground that was still burning two weeks after the Tower collapsed, "its metal so hot that it looked like a vat of molten steel."

http://www.thenewliberator.com/wethepeople.htm

The structural engineer responsible for the design of the WTC, described fires still burning and molten steel still running 21 days after the attacks.

http://www.seau.org/SEAUNews-2001-10.pdf

According to a member of New York Air National Guard's 109th Air Wing, who was at Ground Zero from September 22 to October 6, "One fireman told us that there was still molten steel at the heart of the towers' remains. Firemen sprayed water to cool the debris down but the heat remained intense enough at the surface to melt their boots."

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_...112/ai_n9015802

A fireman stated that there were "oven" like conditions at the trade centers six weeks after 9/11.

http://plaguepuppy.net/public_html/video%2...low_quality.wmv

Firemen and hazardous materials experts also stated that, six weeks after 9/11, "There are pieces of steel being pulled out [from as far as six stories underground] that are still cherry red" and "the blaze is so 'far beyond a normal fire' that it is nearly impossible to draw conclusions about it based on other fires." (pay-per-view)

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/nydailynews/87...LDER+FOR+MONTHS

A NY Department of Sanitation spokeswoman said "for about two and a half months after the attacks, in addition to its regular duties, NYDS played a major role in debris removal - everything from molten steel beams to human remains...."

http://wasteage.com/mag/waste_dday_ny_sanitation/

As late as five months after the attacks, in February 2002, firefighter Joe O'Toole saw a steel beam being lifted from deep underground at Ground Zero, which, he says, "was dripping from the molten steel."

http://www.fallenbrothers.com/community/sh...p=2948#post2948

Indeed, the trade center fire was "the longest-burning structural fire in history",

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn1634

even though it rained heavily on September 14, 2001

http://www.courttv.com/assault_on_america/0914_rain_ap.html

and again on September 21, 2001,

http://www.wnbc.com/news/962722/detail.html

and the fires were sprayed with high tech fire-retardands,

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn1634

and "firetrucks [sprayed] a nearly constant jet of water on" ground zero."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/12/19/...ain321907.shtml

Indeed, "You couldn't even begin to imagine how much water was pumped in there," said Tom Manley of the Uniformed Firefighters Association, the largest fire department union. "It was like you were creating a giant lake."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/12/19/...ain321907.shtml

For one explanation of why there was molten metal under ground zero for months after 9/11, see this paper.

http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

Posted : Tuesday, December 06, 2005
http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2005/...etal-under.html


When evidence is presented...

user posted image

http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/MoltenstreamSM.html

We get an explosion of spam to try to bury such evidence in the distant past pages with no addressing of such anomalies at all.

Very scientific.

For those who have better than 'outback jerry-rigged' computer systems... (or have broadband), you really must check out the full size photo. I am still looking for any qualified scientists to explain what exactly this is.

Is this a stalagtite growing in the caves of the underground areas of the World Trade Center?. Anyone who has been following the thread, understands that this picture was released by a site known as army.firststrike.

Hmmm?

Does anyone have pictures of unusual fungus which can match this?























Still waiting...



adoucette
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 9 2006, 12:00 AM)
QUOTE (ScottS+Mar 8 2006, 07:05 PM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 9 2006, 01:43 AM)
QUOTE (brian+Mar 8 2006, 09:21 PM)
Of course you are a pilot.


I was posting on airdisaster.com before 9-11

I guess I set up the lie that I was a pilot over there in ANTICIPATION of needing it for a CONSPIRACY about an event that had not yet happened.

MORON

Arthur

Interesting post adoucette. Seems like Sagadevan is a scammer of some sort.

I guess others researched this guy Sagadevan and came to similar conclusions

Seems the guy doesn't know what he's talking about nor has he flown a plane in 20 years.
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread185820/pg1

Sagadevan doesn't seem to be credible hit in other forums either.
Like rec.travel.air or rec.aviation.piloting
....Or maybe these are all spooks/shills. wink.gif
Seems brian might want to rethink his sources.

Well ScottS,

Did you check out this forumns infamouse Pilots Story?

http://www.airdisaster.com/forums/showpost...781&postcount=3

It States Arthur was a member since November 2001. Join Date: 11-13-2001

My bad,
I had been on the Air Disaster forum longer but I guess I didn't register till that November.

Notice the date?

Nov 13th, 2001

The reason was I have been interested in why commercial airliners crash since I became a pilot in the late 70s.

AA587 crashed in Queens NY on the 13th of November.

I registered then so I could post about the crash.

However I was on THIS forum before these thread started. So do you think I made up being a pilot 5 years ago so I could debate as a pilot on a PHYSICS forum several years later???

Besides, EVERYTHING I POSTED about flying is verifyable.

Arthur
Foxx
As for this picture...

User posted image

It doesn't seem really to matter whether it is real or not... It in no way supports the concrete core theory. The light blockage would have just as easily be accomplished by gyrock.

As for the question where I got it algoxy?... from your site, of course.

And, as for me, I can accept it as real.

Look at those walls blocking out the sun on the mechanical floors, and review the article by guardian regarding that wall being blown out to initiate the 'collapse'.

Obviously... you had to get by those maasive beams that the mechanical floors were resting on before the collapse of 4 or 5 floors could continue.



Foxx
Then of course, the CTers will say, they didn't need to blow the mechanical floors. The raging inferno was cooking those 47 massive interior columns. Well, I don't see any evidence of that in the NIST reports (especially with regard to the south tower). I have cached the NIST colorful computer generated maps for all periods and all fire floors for the south tower. Remember that these pretty maps refer to postulated high temperatures of AIR not the steel. I see no evidence here to support the nonsence that the piddly fires at WTC 2 were cooking the core columns.

http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/comsim001.html

Let all five fire floors completely pancake down onto that mechanical floor, and the building would have stood...

apart from additional energy input, that is.


adoucette
QUOTE (Foxx+Mar 9 2006, 12:40 AM)
Then of course, the CTers will say, they didn't need to blow the mechanical floors. The raging inferno was cooking those 47 massive interior columns. Well, I don't see any evidence of that in the NIST reports (especially with regard to the south tower). I have cached the NIST colorful computer generated maps for all periods and all fire floors for the south tower. Remember that these pretty maps refer to postulated high temperatures of AIR not the steel. I see no evidence here to support the nonsence that the piddly fires at WTC 2 were cooking the core columns.

http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/comsim001.html

Let all five fire floors completely pancake down onto that mechanical floor, and the building would have stood...

apart from additional energy input, that is.

Well it wouldn't be JUST 5 floors now would it????

I don't think it matters that the Mech floors were built with beams,

If they were connected to the perimeter columns like this:

User posted image

So the question (for which I've seen only very limited data) is how were the Mech Floors constructed?

Arthur
shagster
Evidence of what if we're all not sure what it is? And if someone knows what it is evidence for, why ask what it is? Tell everyone and explain the rational.

user posted image
adoucette
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 9 2006, 12:46 AM)
Evidence of what if we're all not sure what it is? And if someone knows what it is evidence for, why ask what it is? Tell everyone and explain the rational.

user posted image

Back when we were on Septic, we had a problem that looked SORTA like that...

laugh.gif

(it wasn't funny at the time, hired a guy whose motto was "your shiit IS my business")

In any case, no one appears to have a clue as to what this is SUPPOSED to represent, or where its from.

Fairly hard to draw conclusions.

Hell, it could be upside down or sideways for all you can tell from that pic.

Arthur
newton
*note to all activists*

in future, please refer to government shills as:
QUOTE
CT's
.

strictly for accuracy purposes, of course.
Foxx
The NIST page which gives dimensions and locations of central core columns.

Of course, I am a little skeptical of this myself in view of the fact that they do NOT show the massive 1 ft x 3 ft columns which we know from photos existed. One needs to study the general arrangement carefully because (according to NIST) the interior core columns changed, dependant upon floor.

http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/core_untitled3.html

Re: arthurs request for data on the mechanical floor construction...

What... I thought you read the report. They were massive i beams welded to the spandrels of the exterior tree sections. And the exterior trees were NOT staggered as in the photo you show ON THE MECHANICAL FLOORS.

On the mechanical floors all the trees were in line. That entire floor throughout the full width of the building was one big solidly welded framework - absolutely NOTHING like the silly truss floors you Cters keep harping about.


shagster
This may be the proper orientation. Not sure. Looks like some sort of sludge on the floor. Looks like a metal door that covers this compartment or room is pushed in.

User posted image

adoucette
QUOTE (Foxx+Mar 9 2006, 01:03 AM)
The NIST page which gives dimensions and locations of central core columns.

Of course, I am a little skeptical of this myself in view of the fact that they do NOT show the massive 1 ft x 3 ft columns which we know from photos existed. One needs to study the general arrangement carefully because (according to NIST) the interior core columns changed, dependant upon floor.

http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/core_untitled3.html

Re: arthurs request for data on the mechanical floor construction...

What... I thought you read the report. They were massive i beams welded to the spandrels of the exterior tree sections. And the exterior trees were NOT staggered as in the photo you show ON THE MECHANICAL FLOORS.

On the mechanical floors all the trees were in line. That entire floor throughout the full width of the building was one big solidly welded framework - absolutely NOTHING like the silly truss floors you Cters keep harping about.

Foxx, I read the MAIN report, several times now. I still don't have it MEMORIZED.
I've also read a lot of the supplements.

But the link you gave doesn't appear to have anything on the construction of the mechanical floors.

I didn't know that the trees weren't staggered at those floors.

I don't know how the beams were joined to the perimeter (and forgive me if I don't take your (ahem) WORD on it)

So you admit the Truss floors were "silly" and couldn't have stopped the top from collapsing down to the mechanical floor.

Right?

If so, the question is, why didn't the mechanical floor stop the collapse?

Go ahead, MAKE YOUR CASE.

Arthur

adoucette
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 9 2006, 01:08 AM)
This may be the proper orientation. Not sure. Looks like some sort of sludge on the floor. Looks like a metal door that covers this compartment or room is pushed in.

User posted image

And I was just kidding about the orientation, but I think you are right, it does actually look like something now.

Not sure WHAT or WHERE, but more like an actual place.

Arthur
newton
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 9 2006, 04:50 AM)
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 9 2006, 12:46 AM)
Evidence of what if we're all not sure what it is?  And if someone knows what it is evidence for, why ask what it is?  Tell everyone and explain the rational.

user posted image

Back when we were on Septic, we had a problem that looked SORTA like that...

laugh.gif

(it wasn't funny at the time, hired a guy whose motto was "your shiit IS my business")

In any case, no one appears to have a clue as to what this is SUPPOSED to represent, or where its from.

Fairly hard to draw conclusions.

Hell, it could be upside down or sideways for all you can tell from that pic.

Arthur

i can tell ONE thing from this picture. there is an open door and corresponding doorframe in the foreground.

flipping the image sideways does not help perception.
shagster
There's a button like object with some thin wires resting on that door/panel If the orientation of that door is vertical, then that object would have fallen off. I assume the 'door' should be resting horizontally. I assume that button is a real object and not an artifact.

Anyhow, the person who presents the evidence has the burden of stating what it is and what it is evidence for, not the rest of us.

User posted image
newton
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 9 2006, 05:08 AM)
This may be the proper orientation. Not sure. Looks like some sort of sludge on the floor. Looks like a metal door that covers this compartment or room is pushed in.

User posted image

of course, it DOES look like the wall is the floor when you flip the image 90°.
shagster
What look like cinder blocks seem to be vertical when I rotate it 90 which doesn't sound right either.

So what is this evidence for and why?

newton
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 9 2006, 05:15 AM)
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 9 2006, 01:08 AM)
This may be the proper orientation.  Not sure.  Looks like some sort of sludge on the floor.  Looks like a metal door that covers this compartment or room is pushed in.

User posted image

And I was just kidding about the orientation, but I think you are right, it does actually look like something now.

Not sure WHAT or WHERE, but more like an actual place.

Arthur

i will flip all my arguments 90° in the future, just for clarity, so that adoucette can understand them.

are you sure you don't want 180°s?
newton
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 9 2006, 05:25 AM)
What look like cinder blocks seem to be vertical when I rotate it 90 which doesn't sound right either.

So what is this evidence for and why?

cinder blocks? where? i see cast concrete.
shagster
I see horizontal lines in the background as if they are blocks.

That's a really small room if that's a regular door, like a closet or something. smile.gif

user posted image
shagster
So, what is this and what is it evidence for?

Are we sure this is from the WTC rubble?
newton
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 9 2006, 05:32 AM)
I see horizontal lines in the background as if they are blocks.

That's a really small room if that's a regular door, like a closet or something. smile.gif

user posted image

perhaps it is an access doorway to a structural component.

i don't know.

i have no idea WHAT the hell this picture proves or shows. could be frickin gold mold for all i know.

i just want to be a 'fair witness'(read 'stranger in a strange land' to 'grok' what i mean).
reasonwhy
I posted the picture first from MMC's thread.

Look at a large photo:

http://army.firststrike.net/nyd/damage/ima...-damage_062.jpg

MMC claims it is metal and I do not know that else it could be.

Water doesn’t seam likely.

The Web site is:

http://army.firststrike.net/
Foxx
I originally got the picture from here...


http://army.firststrike.net/nyd/damage/

Reasonwhy posted the link about 50 pages of spam ago.

Given all those highly credible witnesses who were actually there at ground zero who spoke of molten rivers of metal, (and not having any other evidence apart from what I see with my own eyes, it certainly looks like it could be fused metals to me.

But I would like to know for a fact what this is.

Perhaps its nothing more than an old golden log lying on the floor.

Given the other photos on the site... I feel he's got the orientation right in the first place. If someone thought it was important enough to take a photo of this anomaly, I kinda think he must have considered it important at the time.


ScottS
QUOTE (Foxx+Mar 9 2006, 06:10 AM)
I originally got the picture from here...


http://army.firststrike.net/nyd/damage/

Reasonwhy posted the link about 50 pages of spam ago.

Given all those highly credible witnesses who were actually there at ground zero who spoke of molten rivers of metal, (and not having any other evidence apart from what I see with my own eyes, it certainly looks like it could be fused metals to me.

But I would like to know for a fact what this is.

Perhaps its nothing more than an old golden log lying on the floor.

Given the other photos on the site... I feel he's got the orientation right in the first place. If someone thought it was important enough to take a photo of this anomaly, I kinda think he must have considered it important at the time.

For once I agree with foxx. I believe the orientation is correct. The next step would be trying to contact the website owner about the photo. Maybe someone here do a domain lookup so they can get the website owner contact information. Then maybe they can point us in the direction of the photographer.
Foxx
I tried a domain lookup on Whois and apparently it's not registered. Seems like some kind of first responders group of some sort to me, although I don't see any way to contact them.
adoucette
QUOTE (newton+Mar 9 2006, 01:27 AM)
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 9 2006, 01:08 AM)
This may be the proper orientation.  Not sure.  Looks like some sort of sludge on the floor.  Looks like a metal door that covers this compartment or room is pushed in.

User posted image


I would bet dollars to doughnuts that this is correct.

The reason is the dimension look RIGHT for a room when rotated 90 deg but not at all when in its vertical presentation.

Also

I've never seen cast concrete (agree with newt) with horizontal lines going up,

But those look like the typical marks from 4x8 sheets of ply when its poured.

The blocks/marks on the wall make sense, not though if they are cieling.

There appears to be a curb, walkway against the far wall.

I'm thinking this is possibly parking deck

Still, what that mass on the floor is?

No telling, but it does sorta look like slag.

Arthur



adoucette
QUOTE (Foxx+Mar 9 2006, 02:32 AM)
I tried a domain lookup on Whois and apparently it's not registered. Seems like some kind of first responders group of some sort to me, although I don't see any way to contact them.

Its title is CENAN - PAO

This stands for Corp of Engineers - NY District - Public Affairs Office.

http://army.firststrike.net/

Arthur
shagster
There is writing on the concrete. There's an arrorw and what looks like a 'U' next to it. Possibly 'up'? That's if I rotate it. There's also a little dark box/plate on the top that looks like it has two wire coming out of it.

Still not sure which orientation is correct. smile.gif The wires could be for a switch (this orientation) or for a lamp on the ceiling (original orientation). smile.gif

User posted image
Foxx
QUOTE
Originally posted by arthur
So you admit the Truss floors were "silly" and couldn't have stopped the top from collapsing down to the mechanical floor.

Right?

If so, the question is, why didn't the mechanical floor stop the collapse?

Go ahead, MAKE YOUR CASE.


I used the word 'silly' flippantly, in view of how they differed from the i beam steel framework of the mechanical floors. They were not in reality silly at all. they were an excellent engineered structure.

But let's pretend there were some real serious steel-killing fires on all five of the impact floors, so much so that each of those gave out at the seats both at the perimeter and core spandrels, and 'pancaked' down on top of one another. This could have collapsed inward some of the lower column sections of the perimeter in some small areas... and all that mass falls down on the mechanical floor. That would leave a 5 story section of debris on top of the mechanical floor. The core wasn't going anywhere based on heat, and NIST admits that if the damage was simply the structural damage, the buildings would have stood indefinately. As long as no hurricanes blew by they would precariously stand. Some of the undamaged upper floors on the east side may have also come down in the area where the outer columns collapsed but at some point long before all of them collapsed vierendeel truss action on the perimeter wall would impede further collapse of sound upper sections completely undamage by fire or aircraft damage. (IMHO)

The computer sims really have to stretch it to get the south tower temperatures anywhere near steel compromising temps within the core.

NIST admits that the predicted results of the sims in some areas do not match empirical data.

Sorry, a one hour fire is not going to so compromise the upper section that the whole upper floors and columns would give way. The collapse didn't start at the top so you don't have wow golly gee thousands of ton instantly impacting the lower section. A few fire damaged floors... thats all. End of local collapse. Big Big Fix job, but still standing today.



shagster
Maybe it's a thick cable with many wires in it that got partly melted. In this orientation what looks like crud on the floor might be more of the outer insulation that melted away. It looks cylindical on the left as if it were a hefty cable and then broken open as you go to the right.

Not sure. I'm only guessing and having fun. smile.gif



User posted image

shagster
The perimeter columns of the east side of the south tower bent inwards with time and compromised the buckling strength of the perimeter. That happened no matter what word we use to describe the fires. The perimeter buckled and the top part of the building started collapsing toward the east and south side. Once that happened, most of the columns, perimeter and inner, would have already been compromised, either buckled in compression or disconnected at their splices in tension. The whole top of a building can't turn that much without compromising most or all the columns. The whole upper section fell about 5 floors worth or more by the time it reached the mechanical floors. Even the mechanical floors would have trouble stopping a dynamic load like that.
Foxx
QUOTE
The perimeter columns of the east side of the south tower bent inwards with time and compromised the buckling strength of the perimeter.


Look at the south face impact hole.There are no columns left there. Did the above floors and columns on that face collapse in the previous hour?. No. Because of vierendeel truss action. It is not like the whole perimeter columns were bowing. Even though I can agree that there is some inwards bowing on the east face, it's not like the entire perimeter wall was collapsing, prior to the detonations. It was the detonations on the mechanical floor (IMHO) which caused the initial lean and twist. Obviously when you start blowing main central support columns, then detonate columns below that you can have a global collapse.

Besides, these oft spoken of puffs of dust were recorded numerous times before the initiation of collapse. There were 'anomalous' high energy ejections followed by debris and flames, often accompanied with white smoke expulsions. The evidence is hard to miss when all correlated with available photos. It's quite amazing that NIST can make statements that they have seen no evidence of 'explosions' when that is exactly what they describe. I see if I can dig it up.





Foxx
QUOTE
From the NIST documents

The video shot from the WTC plaza captured an intriguing event at 9:37:04 am. A jet of air, dust, and a large piece of debris was ejected from a window, 77-335 on the 77th floor at an extremely high velocity.


Did you catch that?... 9:37 ... on the 77th floor ... (just below the mechanical floor)... Two floors below the impact and fire floors.

There were many of these documented leading up to collapse.

Gee... Coincidentally they even have some pretty pictures of some of these 'puffs' of nice white smoke coming out of a number of these areas.

The picture below is not of the above mentioned occurance but another one of these mysterious 'puffs of smoke'. The picture below is one that schneiby doesn't seem to want to put on his debunking site for some reason... I keep telling him to look at those nice raging fires on the north side.

Look at all those nice red arrows pointing to the 'cold spot' ... look. If you look really really hard you can just make out what they call a 'hanging object'. Of course you are so intrigued looking into this black hole for the alleged hanging object... it's hard to see that white puff of smoke as the column seems to catch fire. It is from there that the molten metal flows later.

User posted image

Oh, well --- just an anomaly forget about that now, lets carry on about the fire... which mysteriously flared up floors above when these things are taking place below.

Anyone notice that bright spot on that column where this particular puff of smoke originated? Oh look... that's around the time when my other nice raging fire to the right seemed to be dying off. Someone blow on it... I want to see more nice raging flames...buckling and melting the columns.


Christophera
QUOTE (newton+Mar 9 2006, 04:57 AM)
*note to all activists*

in future, please refer to government shills as:
QUOTE
CT's
.

strictly for accuracy purposes, of course.

Ahhhhhhh, lets get more accurate.


Conspirators


And I know, that they don't even have to know what they are doing, they still do it just fine.
Ron
You are confusing the true meaning of conspiracy theory.
Don't try to call this kettle black, mr. pot.

From Wikopedia

When conspiracy theories are offered as official claims (e.g. originating from a governmental authority, such as an intelligence agency) they are not usually considered as conspiracy theories.


Is produced and circulated by 'outsiders', often anonymous, and generally lacking peer review;
Story originates with a person who lacks any insider contact or knowledge, and enjoys popularity among persons who lack critical (especially technical) knowledge
Rebuttals provided by experts are ignored or accommodated through elaborate new twists in the narrative;
When experts do respond to the story with critical new evidence, the conspiracy is elaborated (sometimes to a spectacular degree) to discount the new evidence, often incorporating the rebuttal as a part of the conspiracy.'
Clinical psychology
For relatively rare individuals, an obsessive compulsion to believe, prove or re-tell a conspiracy theory may indicate one or more of several well-understood psychological conditions, and other hypothetical ones: paranoia, denial, schizophrenia, Mean world syndrome

In popular culture, the term paranoia is usually used to describe excessive concern about one's own well-being, sometimes suggesting a person holds persecutory beliefs concerning a threat to themselves or their property and is often linked to a belief in conspiracy theories
In popular culture paranoia is often represented as including:
· Belief in having special powers or being on a special mission (a "delusion of grandeur");
· Conspiracy theories, such as seeing seemingly unrelated news events as parts of a larger, typically conspiratorial plan
· Black helicopters and other mass surveillance
· Persecution from powerful adversaries such as UFOs, terrorists, the Men in Black, secret societies or demons
· Mind control through invisible rays, and tinfoil hats to combat them;
Commen sense
You morons don't even know what building this is from. Building 1,2,3,4,5,6,7??? This photo was posted along side photos from the whole area around ground 0! Heh! What complete and utter idiots! HAHAHA!!!

user posted image
Commen sense
The following are a few of the fallacies of logic employed by Griffin and Meyssan, with initial descriptions of each fallacy provided by Stephen Downes (Stephen's Guide to the Logical Fallacies - http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/ ).

Fallacies of Distraction:


False Dilemma: two choices are given when in fact there are three options.

Example in Griffin: it is asserted that the evidence suggests Bush either caused the attacks on 09/11/01 or knew about them in advance and did nothing to stop them. One option not given (or repeatedly dismissed) is that Bush should have known that an attack was imminent, but failed to take the proper measures to stop them.


From Ignorance: because something is not known to be true, it is assumed to be false.

Example in Griffin: A superficial search of the web by Griffin source Holmgren fails to discover evidence that AP Radio reporter Dave Winslow exists, therefore Holmgren asserts that Winslow's quotes are false, and that Winslow may not exist at all.

Inductive Fallacies:


Hasty Generalization: the sample is too small to support an inductive generalization about a population.

Example in Griffin: Finding only 19 witnesses quoted on the web who claim they saw a commercial jet hit the Pentagon, and then finding reasons to dismiss their claims, and then concluding the witness evidence does not support the claim that a commercial jet hit the Pentagon. In fact, there are many more than 19 persons who claim they saw a commercial jet hit the Pentagon, but since they were not found in a superficial web search, they are not counted as part of the sample.


Unrepresentative Sample: the sample is unrepresentative of the sample as a whole.

Example in Griffin: Highlighting the handful of people who say they saw or heard a missile heading toward or striking the Pentagon, when most people describe a commercial passenger jet.


Fallacy of Exclusion: evidence which would change the outcome of an inductive argument is excluded from consideration.

Example in Griffin: Meyssan and Griffin claim that the explosion at the Pentagon cannot be explained by the burning of Jet aviation fuel, therefore a missile strike is a likely explanation. There is abundant evidence (not mentioned) that Jet aviation fuel actually can explode when vaporized and create an extremely high temperature.

Example in Griffin: The World Trade Center towers would only have collapsed if bombs had been placed inside the buildings. This claim is refuted by numerous structural engineers and forensic engineers. [Read example 1] [Read example 2] [Read example 3]

Non Sequitur:


Affirming the Consequent: any argument of the form: If A then B, B, therefore A

Example in Griffin: If a heat-seeking missile hit United Flight 93 over Pennsylvania, it would have knocked off the jet engine. A jet engine from the aircraft was found miles from the main crash wreckage, therefore this is evidence that a heat-seeking missile hit United Flight 93 over Pennsylvania.

Example in Griffin: If Bush knew about the 09/11/01 attacks in advance, he would remain in a classroom talking with children, (and the Secret Service would not whisk him away to safety). Bush stayed talking with children, therefore this is evidence that Bush knew about the 09/11/01 attacks in advance.
Causal Fallacies:

Post Hoc: because one thing follows another, it is held to cause the other.

Example in Griffin: Bush wanted to pass legislation expanding the powers of intelligence agencies; invade Afghanistan, and invade Iraq. The passage of the Patriot Act, the invasion of Afghanistan, and the invasion of Iraq are evidence that Bush caused the attacks on 09/11/01 or allowed them to happen.

Fallacies of Explanation:

Non-support: Evidence for the phenomenon being explained is biased:

Example in Meyssan and Griffin: The fireballs of the commercial jets that struck the World Trade Center towers are different from the fireball at the Pentagon, therefore the fireball at the Pentagon was not caused by a commercial jet airliner. The fireballs are indeed different. The fireballs at the World Trade Center towers are in mid-air and can attain a rounded shape against the walls of the building and the holes in the walls. The fireball at the Pentagon is shaped by the wall of the building, the hole in the wall of the building, and the ground, therefore the blast is shaped differently and is forced upwards in a distinctive shape.

Changing the Subject:

Appeal to Authority: the authority is not an expert in the field.

Example in Griffin: Meyssan is cited by Griffin where Meyssan is making conclusions about scientific, military, and engineering matters when he has no expertise in any of these fields, much less expertise in the forensic analysis of phenomena related to these fields.

Example in Griffin: "the most obvious problem is that since the aircraft penetrated only the first three rings of the Pentagon, only the nose of a Boeing 757 would have gone inside.... The rest of the airplane would have remained outside." p. 29.
Fallacies of Ambiguity:

Equivocation: the same term is used with two different meanings.

Example in Griffin and Meyssan: Throughout their discussion of the "nose" of flight 77, and the attack on the Pentagon, they and the people they quote refer to the "nose" of the airplane, but it is clear that sometimes people are describing the small fragile nose cover that protects electronic equipment at the tip of the aircraft, and sometimes they are talking about the entire front part of the aircraft.

Argument from Ignorance
(argumentum ad ignorantiam)

Definition:

Arguments of this form assume that since something has not been proven false, it is therefore true. Conversely, such an argument may assume that since something has not been proven true, it is therefore false. (This is a special case of a false dilemma, since it assumes that all propositions must either be known to be true or known to be false.) As Davis writes, "Lack of proof is not proof." (p. 59)

Examples:
(i) Since you cannot prove that ghosts do not exist, they must exist.

(ii) Since scientists cannot prove that global warming will occur, it probably won't.

(iii) Fred said that he is smarter than Jill, but he didn't prove it, so it must be false.

(iv) Faux said you can't explain the photo, the photo proves CD.

Proof:
Identify the proposition in question. Argue that it may be true even though we don't know whether it is or isn't.

References:
Copi and Cohen: 93, Davis: 59
shagster
The bowing was significant along the east face at floors 80 and 81 although it extended from 78 to 83. The building buckled on the east side at the start of the global collapse, not at the mechanical floors which were around floors 75 and 76. The mechanical floors must have had enough strength to support the bowed in regions above them and for the collapse to start above them; otherwise, the collapse would have been observed to start at 75 and 76. Blowing out the mechanical floors to start a global collapse doesn't agree with what was observed.

The south side apparently didn't bend inwards. Then again, that region was probably not as hot, as the fires were not in that area and were generally in the east and northeast area. The loads that would have been carried by lost perimeter columns in the south side would have gotten transferred partly to the east wall. There was also extra weight of a jumbo jet sitting in the east and northeast region (not the south region). It's not too surprising the east wall started buckling at elevated temperatures where floor sagging was likely occurring and the strength of the heated metal was reduced.

Regarding the lack of windows on the mechanical floor, there must have been some louvers or vents or something for ventilation. Considering all the equipment on mechanical floors, there has to be a way of letting out the heat. It wouldn't be unusual to see dust coming out the mechanical floors during a global collapse.
hereward
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 9 2006, 04:19 AM)
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 9 2006, 12:00 AM)
QUOTE (ScottS+Mar 8 2006, 07:05 PM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 9 2006, 01:43 AM)
QUOTE (brian+Mar 8 2006, 09:21 PM)
Of course you are a pilot.


I was posting on airdisaster.com before 9-11

I guess I set up the lie that I was a pilot over there in ANTICIPATION of needing it for a CONSPIRACY about an event that had not yet happened.

MORON

Arthur

Interesting post adoucette. Seems like Sagadevan is a scammer of some sort.

I guess others researched this guy Sagadevan and came to similar conclusions

Seems the guy doesn't know what he's talking about nor has he flown a plane in 20 years.
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread185820/pg1

Sagadevan doesn't seem to be credible hit in other forums either.
Like rec.travel.air or rec.aviation.piloting
....Or maybe these are all spooks/shills. wink.gif
Seems brian might want to rethink his sources.

Well ScottS,

Did you check out this forumns infamouse Pilots Story?

http://www.airdisaster.com/forums/showpost...781&postcount=3

It States Arthur was a member since November 2001. Join Date: 11-13-2001

My bad,
I had been on the Air Disaster forum longer but I guess I didn't register till that November.

Notice the date?

Nov 13th, 2001

The reason was I have been interested in why commercial airliners crash since I became a pilot in the late 70s.

AA587 crashed in Queens NY on the 13th of November.

I registered then so I could post about the crash.

However I was on THIS forum before these thread started. So do you think I made up being a pilot 5 years ago so I could debate as a pilot on a PHYSICS forum several years later???

Besides, EVERYTHING I POSTED about flying is verifyable.

Arthur

I have just read the thread at http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread185820/pg2, here are my observations:

1. Nila Sagadevan is accused of being "bogus".

2. His expertise is questioned and he is ridiculed and taunted:

"He should stick to authoring religous books."
"Regardless of being in a list or not, most of his comments are plain wrong or pretty stupid."


3. Mr. Sagadevan was very forthcoming and surprisingly courteous and in his email responses.

On this thread we have:

"Interesting post adoucette. Seems like Sagadevan is a scammer of some sort. "

Anyway guys, your smear campaign seems to be failing on this forum, I have noticed of late that the CT'ers are outnumbering the OCT'ers...

You'll have to work a little harder guys...

user posted image





Commen sense
QUOTE (Ron+Mar 9 2006, 01:37 PM)
You are confusing the true meaning of conspiracy theory.
Don't try to call this kettle black, mr. pot.

From Wikopedia

When conspiracy theories are offered as official claims (e.g. originating from a governmental authority, such as an intelligence agency) they are not usually considered as conspiracy theories.


Is produced and circulated by 'outsiders', often anonymous, and generally lacking peer review;
Story originates with a person who lacks any insider contact or knowledge, and enjoys popularity among persons who lack critical (especially technical) knowledge
Rebuttals provided by experts are ignored or accommodated through elaborate new twists in the narrative;
When experts do respond to the story with critical new evidence, the conspiracy is elaborated (sometimes to a spectacular degree) to discount the new evidence, often incorporating the rebuttal as a part of the conspiracy.'
Clinical psychology
For relatively rare individuals, an obsessive compulsion to believe, prove or re-tell a conspiracy theory may indicate one or more of several well-understood psychological conditions, and other hypothetical ones: paranoia, denial, schizophrenia, Mean world syndrome

In popular culture, the term paranoia is usually used to describe excessive concern about one's own well-being, sometimes suggesting a person holds persecutory beliefs concerning a threat to themselves or their property and is often linked to a belief in conspiracy theories
In popular culture paranoia is often represented as including:
· Belief in having special powers or being on a special mission (a "delusion of grandeur");
· Conspiracy theories, such as seeing seemingly unrelated news events as parts of a larger, typically conspiratorial plan
· Black helicopters and other mass surveillance
· Persecution from powerful adversaries such as UFOs, terrorists, the Men in Black, secret societies or demons
· Mind control through invisible rays, and tinfoil hats to combat them;

Don't sweat it Ron. The Conspiracy theorist are now giving Pee Wee Herman's "I know you are but what I'm I?" defense. I guess they just don't like the sound of what they are.
adoucette
QUOTE (Foxx+Mar 9 2006, 04:58 AM)
QUOTE
From the NIST documents

The video shot from the WTC plaza captured an intriguing event at 9:37:04 am. A jet of air, dust, and a large piece of debris was ejected from a window, 77-335 on the 77th floor at an extremely high velocity.


Did you catch that?... 9:37 ... on the 77th floor ... (just below the mechanical floor)... Two floors below the impact and fire floors.

There were many of these documented leading up to collapse.

Gee... Coincidentally they even have some pretty pictures of some of these 'puffs' of nice white smoke coming out of a number of these areas.

The picture below is not of the above mentioned occurance but another one of these mysterious 'puffs of smoke'. The picture below is one that schneiby doesn't seem to want to put on his debunking site for some reason... I keep telling him to look at those nice raging fires on the north side.

Look at all those nice red arrows pointing to the 'cold spot' ... look. If you look really really hard you can just make out what they call a 'hanging object'. Of course you are so intrigued looking into this black hole for the alleged hanging object... it's hard to see that white puff of smoke as the column seems to catch fire. It is from there that the molten metal flows later.

User posted image

Oh, well --- just an anomaly forget about that now, lets carry on about the fire... which mysteriously flared up floors above when these things are taking place below.

Anyone notice that bright spot on that column where this particular puff of smoke originated? Oh look... that's around the time when my other nice raging fire to the right seemed to be dying off. Someone blow on it... I want to see more nice raging flames...buckling and melting the columns.

Did you catch that?... 9:37 ... on the 77th floor ... (just ABOVE the mechanical floor)... Two floors below the impact and fire floors.


Mech floors were 75 & 76, 77 was tenent space

NIST Final Table 1-1 page 5

Also see figure 2-6 on page 77 of same report, clearly shows Elevator sign to Floor 77 and up.

Don't think you can take the elevator to Mechanical Floor.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
From the NIST documents

The video shot from the WTC plaza captured an intriguing event at 9:37:04 am. A jet of air, dust, and a large piece of debris was ejected from a window, 77-335 on the 77th floor at an extremely high velocity.


Did you catch that?... 9:37 ... on the 77th floor ... (just below the mechanical floor)... Two floors below the impact and fire floors.

There were many of these documented leading up to collapse.

Gee... Coincidentally they even have some pretty pictures of some of these 'puffs' of nice white smoke coming out of a number of these areas.

The picture below is not of the above mentioned occurance but another one of these mysterious 'puffs of smoke'. The picture below is one that schneiby doesn't seem to want to put on his debunking site for some reason... I keep telling him to look at those nice raging fires on the north side.

Look at all those nice red arrows pointing to the 'cold spot' ... look. If you look really really hard you can just make out what they call a 'hanging object'. Of course you are so intrigued looking into this black hole for the alleged hanging object... it's hard to see that white puff of smoke as the column seems to catch fire. It is from there that the molten metal flows later.

User posted image

Oh, well --- just an anomaly forget about that now, lets carry on about the fire... which mysteriously flared up floors above when these things are taking place below.

Anyone notice that bright spot on that column where this particular puff of smoke originated? Oh look... that's around the time when my other nice raging fire to the right seemed to be dying off. Someone blow on it... I want to see more nice raging flames...buckling and melting the columns.

Did you catch that?... 9:37 ... on the 77th floor ... (just ABOVE the mechanical floor)... Two floors below the impact and fire floors.


Mech floors were 75 & 76, 77 was tenent space

NIST Final Table 1-1 page 5

Also see figure 2-6 on page 77 of same report, clearly shows Elevator sign to Floor 77 and up.

Don't think you can take the elevator to Mechanical Floor.

There were many of these documented leading up to collapse.


Many HIGH SPEED EJECTIONS????

Really?

Arthur
adoucette
QUOTE (brian+)
Scotts, you seem willing to accept all manner of strange happenings, I wonder why. Perhaps simple ignorance, hope this helps -

The Impossibility of Flying Heavy Aircraft Without Training
by Nila Sagadevan

Nila Sagadevan is an aeronautical engineer and a pilot.

There are some who maintain that the mythical 9/11 hijackers, although proven to be too incompetent to fly a little Cessna 172, had acquired the impressive skills that enabled them to fly airliners by training in flight simulators.

What follows is an attempt to bury this myth once and for all, because I’ve heard this ludicrous explanation bandied about, ad nauseam, on the Internet and the TV networks—invariably by people who know nothing substantive about flight simulators, flying, or even airplanes. --

Full article - http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/Sagadevan21Feb2006.html
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 8 2006, 08:13 PM)

Brian,
I am also a pilot and that article is one VIEW of the situation, but certainly not the only one that is valid.

First off, they are CONSTANTLY referred to as NON PILOTS.

They WERE pilots.

They HAD TRAINING.

THEY KNEW HOW TO NAVIGATE
THEY KNEW HOW TO DO AN INSTRUMENT SCAN
THEY KNEW THE INSTRUMENTS AND CONTROLS THEY WOULD NEED TO TURN, DESCEND, LEVEL OFF, SLOW DOWN, SPEED UP.

He refers to "video games" as simulators but they paid for training in JET SIMULATORS.

Whats more, the current PC based video simulators are DEAD ON accurate as to instruments and layout.

Go to ANY FBO and you can BUY instrument layouts for these jets as well as operating manuals etc (a lot of guys are trying to move up)

He refers to pilots flying IFR, Instrument Flight Rules, but it was a CAVU day, Clear Air, Visibility Unlimited, thus NO NEED FOR IFR.

It is true that flying very high is a BIT LIKE IFR, but all of them descended almost immediately, and as soon as that nose comes down then there is a EXCELLENT horizon for use in VFR (visual flight rules) type flying.

He fails to mention the AUTO PILOT that allows "dialing in" a destination and will handle keeping the wings level and even making turns.

He fails to mention that the SIMPLE TO USE VOR navigation works the SAME on a 767 as it does on a Cessna 172. All you do is dial in the frequency of the station (Reagan Natl anyone?) and then turn in the direction the needle is off-center, till it centers, then keep the needle centered till you get there.

He refers to 52 year old Chick Burlingame as "Big and Burly" supposedly because he was a Fighter Pilot. Got news for you, don't take "Big and Burly" to be a FP.

user posted image

Besides Chick would have had shoulder straps on, been unarmed and unfortunately, unprepared for multiple guys wielding box cutters and trained in Martial arts.

As far as 'flipping' the jet on its back to throw his attackers against the roof, give me a break, it ain't a friggin fighter.

And NOW I KNOW where galdur got his "you can't fly a jet a few feet off the ground" BS

HERE

QUOTE
I shan’t get into the aerodynamic impossibility of flying a large commercial jetliner 20 feet above the ground at over 400 MPH. A discussion on ground effect energy, vortex compression, downwash reaction, wake turbulence, and jetblast effects are beyond the scope of this article. Indeed, the 100,000-lb jetblast alone would have blown entire semi-trucks off the roads this massive aircraft is alleged to have flown over at extremely low altitude.


Notice what he "shan't" get into.... (that is just so Brokeback!)

What he "shan't" get into is WHAT ISN'T TRUE.

These issues are all dealt with in the pentagon thread.

I like this part:

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
I shan’t get into the aerodynamic impossibility of flying a large commercial jetliner 20 feet above the ground at over 400 MPH. A discussion on ground effect energy, vortex compression, downwash reaction, wake turbulence, and jetblast effects are beyond the scope of this article. Indeed, the 100,000-lb jetblast alone would have blown entire semi-trucks off the roads this massive aircraft is alleged to have flown over at extremely low altitude.


Notice what he "shan't" get into.... (that is just so Brokeback!)

What he "shan't" get into is WHAT ISN'T TRUE.

These issues are all dealt with in the pentagon thread.

I like this part:

The author, a pilot and aeronautical engineer, challenges any pilot in the world to do so in any large high-speed aircraft that has a relatively low wing-loading (such as a commercial jet). I.e., to fly the craft at 400 MPH, 20 feet above ground in a flat trajectory over a distance of one mile.


laugh.gif

I'll do it if he provides the Jet, but what REALLY gets me is the fallacy that a commercial jet has LOW WING LOADING. Compared to what? An F-18? Certainly not to any plane I fly....

So, to sum up, its a propaganda article, meant to convince people who know LITTLE about flying that it was impossible.

It is and was not.

Arthur

Right,
And so the focus is on if I am a pilot and my mistake on when I registered on Air Disaster.com. (Nov 13th 2001, it was the day of the crash of AA587, ps if you do a google search on "doucette and AA587" then check out images you will find that I played an ACTIVE role in a research project connected to this crash, or see site usread.com)

The fact that I posted over 3,000 posts on an Aviation site and the fact that I was posting on THIS site before the 9/11 Conspiracy tread STARTED, should give an indication that I am not lying about my aviation background.

By the way, if you follow the links you will find you can search the FAA database on PILOTS and you will find me in there. Same name I post under here. Same name I posted under at Air Disaster.com. But this guy is NOT in the database of pilots. His REASON is that he "hasn't been active for 20 years". Don't matter, the FAA doesn't remove your name if you are not active. While you need to take a Biennial Flight Review to stay CURRENT, your LICENSE is good until REVOKED.

BUT this is ALL irrelevant.

NO ONE IS ATTACKING MY CONTENTIONS THAT THE ARTICLE IS A CON JOB.

IT IS.

PARTIULARLY about the effects of "ground effect", which he says he "shan't go into the aerodynamic impossiblity of flying a ... jetliner 20 ft above the ground at over 400 mph". Good thing he "didn't go into it", since Ground Effect REDUCES DRAG, it does NOT PROHIBIT flying low to the ground.

This puts him in the same league with galdur, and galdur didn't have a clue about aerodynamics.



Arthur
adoucette
How many times have we seen THIS:

QUOTE
Rebuttals provided by experts are ignored or accommodated through elaborate new twists in the narrative;
When experts do respond to the story with critical new evidence, the conspiracy is elaborated (sometimes to a spectacular degree) to discount the new evidence, often incorporating the rebuttal as a part of the conspiracy.'


Mini-nukes
Thermite
Pull It
Floors "sucked down" by explosives
Had to demolish WTC 2 first

etc etc


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Rebuttals provided by experts are ignored or accommodated through elaborate new twists in the narrative;
When experts do respond to the story with critical new evidence, the conspiracy is elaborated (sometimes to a spectacular degree) to discount the new evidence, often incorporating the rebuttal as a part of the conspiracy.'


Mini-nukes
Thermite
Pull It
Floors "sucked down" by explosives
Had to demolish WTC 2 first

etc etc


paranoia is often represented as including:
· Belief in having special powers or being on a special mission (a "delusion of grandeur");
· Conspiracy theories, such as seeing seemingly unrelated news events as parts of a larger, typically conspiratorial plan
· Black helicopters and other mass surveillance
· Persecution from powerful adversaries such as UFOs, terrorists, the Men in Black, secret societies or demons
· Mind control through invisible rays, and tinfoil hats to combat them;


I believe we have seen everything on this list but UFOs and Demons

laugh.gif laugh.gif

Arthur
reasonwhy
QUOTE (Ron+Mar 9 2006, 05:37 AM)
You are confusing the true meaning of conspiracy theory.
Don't try to call this kettle black, mr. pot.

From Wikopedia

When conspiracy theories are offered as official claims (e.g. originating from a governmental authority, such as an intelligence agency) they are not usually considered as conspiracy theories.


Is produced and circulated by 'outsiders', often anonymous, and generally lacking peer review;
Story originates with a person who lacks any insider contact or knowledge, and enjoys popularity among persons who lack critical (especially technical) knowledge
Rebuttals provided by experts are ignored or accommodated through elaborate new twists in the narrative;
When experts do respond to the story with critical new evidence, the conspiracy is elaborated (sometimes to a spectacular degree) to discount the new evidence, often incorporating the rebuttal as a part of the conspiracy.'
Clinical psychology
For relatively rare individuals, an obsessive compulsion to believe, prove or re-tell a conspiracy theory may indicate one or more of several well-understood psychological conditions, and other hypothetical ones: paranoia, denial, schizophrenia, Mean world syndrome

In popular culture, the term paranoia is usually used to describe excessive concern about one's own well-being, sometimes suggesting a person holds persecutory beliefs concerning a threat to themselves or their property and is often linked to a belief in conspiracy theories
In popular culture paranoia is often represented as including:
· Belief in having special powers or being on a special mission (a "delusion of grandeur");
· Conspiracy theories, such as seeing seemingly unrelated news events as parts of a larger, typically conspiratorial plan
· Black helicopters and other mass surveillance
· Persecution from powerful adversaries such as UFOs, terrorists, the Men in Black, secret societies or demons
· Mind control through invisible rays, and tinfoil hats to combat them;

Do you have another source for this BS? It is obvious an intelligence agency would not want there activities labeled a conspiracy (people might demand trials and real criminal investigations when a crime is committed).

It is interesting that they then go on to admit there are real government conspiracies.
adoucette
QUOTE (hereward+Mar 9 2006, 10:08 AM)
I have just read the thread at http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread185820/pg2, here are my observations:

1. Nila Sagadevan is accused of being "bogus".

2. His expertise is questioned and he is ridiculed and taunted:

"He should stick to authoring religous books."
  "Regardless of being in a list or not, most of his comments are plain wrong or pretty stupid."


3. Mr. Sagadevan was very forthcoming and surprisingly courteous and in his email responses.

On this thread we have:

"Interesting post adoucette. Seems like Sagadevan is a scammer of some sort. "

Anyway guys, your smear campaign seems to be failing on this forum, I have noticed of late that the CT'ers are outnumbering the OCT'ers...

You'll have to work a little harder guys...


He was courteous in his replies.

Of course what he SAID wasn't TRUE, but it was said nicely.

You remain in the FAA database permenently, has NOTHING to do with your being ACTIVE or not. Don't even matter if you die.

The FAA doesn't KNOW that you are ACTIVE or not or how long its been since you've flown.

You only need to tell the FAA when you change your address.

MUCH MORE IMPORTANTLY his contention that it was AERODYNAMICALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO FLY A LARGE JET 20 FT OFF THE GROUND AT 400 MPH IS BOGUS.

WHICH CALLS INTO QUESTION HIS ENTIRE BACKGROUND.

Arthur
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