QUOTE (gordon+Mar 6 2006, 12:47 PM)
Because of the weak fire resistance capacity of steel, the high temperature caused by the burning of aeroplane oil will soften the steel. So the material of steel under fire is needed to be setup, whose other parameter is the same to normal steel except that the Yang¡¯s modulus and strength is set as 1/20 of normal ones, to approach the performance of steel at 700¡æ.
............................
Improving the ductility of structure elements is an efficient way to avoid the chain collapse happens. In the simulation above, if the fracture plastic strain of steel structure is 0.5%, the chain collapse will take place entirely. However, if the fracture strain is improved to 1%, the impact energy of upper floors will be absorbed by the lower structures and the chain collapse will be stopped at about 100m under the airplane impact zone. When the fracture strain is improved to 5%, only part of the structure near the airplane impacting zone will be damaged, and no chain collapse will take place. Hence, if the structure has enough ductility to absorb the energy of upper floors¡¯ collapse, the chain damage will be controlled. Even though consider the influence of heap load, the towers still have much larger chance to escape from the entire collapse
The compilers of this paper have used an overestimation of the steel temperatures.
They show that continuation of collapse is dependent on a fracture deformation of less than 1%, at that temperature and with a reduced Youngs modulus.
Bazant Zhou show that buckling does not occur until a 3% vertical deformation. This report, when corrected to show the accepted reality of the temperature ranges and Youngs modulus, supports the postulation that additional energies, other than those from aircraft impact and fire, were necessary to cause a total collapse.
When the fracture strain is improved to 5%, only part of the structure near the airplane impacting zone will be damaged, and no chain collapse will take place.
How does this square with the belief that collapse initiation will inevitably lead to a total collapse?
Gordon.
Gordon,
Obviously I know little about the "fracture plastic strain of steel structure" and less about a Young's Modulus, but since they are talking about stopping failure 100m under the impact, I think they are talking about the OVERALL DESIGN of the building, not the fire impact area.
Arthur
............................
Improving the ductility of structure elements is an efficient way to avoid the chain collapse happens. In the simulation above, if the fracture plastic strain of steel structure is 0.5%, the chain collapse will take place entirely. However, if the fracture strain is improved to 1%, the impact energy of upper floors will be absorbed by the lower structures and the chain collapse will be stopped at about 100m under the airplane impact zone. When the fracture strain is improved to 5%, only part of the structure near the airplane impacting zone will be damaged, and no chain collapse will take place. Hence, if the structure has enough ductility to absorb the energy of upper floors¡¯ collapse, the chain damage will be controlled. Even though consider the influence of heap load, the towers still have much larger chance to escape from the entire collapse
The compilers of this paper have used an overestimation of the steel temperatures.
They show that continuation of collapse is dependent on a fracture deformation of less than 1%, at that temperature and with a reduced Youngs modulus.
Bazant Zhou show that buckling does not occur until a 3% vertical deformation. This report, when corrected to show the accepted reality of the temperature ranges and Youngs modulus, supports the postulation that additional energies, other than those from aircraft impact and fire, were necessary to cause a total collapse.
When the fracture strain is improved to 5%, only part of the structure near the airplane impacting zone will be damaged, and no chain collapse will take place.
How does this square with the belief that collapse initiation will inevitably lead to a total collapse?
Gordon.
Gordon,
Obviously I know little about the "fracture plastic strain of steel structure" and less about a Young's Modulus, but since they are talking about stopping failure 100m under the impact, I think they are talking about the OVERALL DESIGN of the building, not the fire impact area.
Arthur
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 6 2006, 02:25 PM)
There are to many possibilities to conclude anything don't you think?
But cement is one of the possibilities, for sure.
Yes. It's hard to say what it is. It looks like a coating, but it doesn't appear the core was encased fully in cement. It looks like there are patches of it stuck to the beam as you look up the beam on the left.
But cement is one of the possibilities, for sure.
Yes. It's hard to say what it is. It looks like a coating, but it doesn't appear the core was encased fully in cement. It looks like there are patches of it stuck to the beam as you look up the beam on the left.
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 6 2006, 05:10 PM)
Gordon,
Obviously I know little about the "fracture plastic strain of steel structure" and less about a Young's Modulus, but since they are talking about stopping failure 100m under the impact, I think they are talking about the OVERALL DESIGN of the building, not the fire impact area.
Arthur
okay, this is a conspiracy! arthur admitted he doesn't know something.
now, i'm scared.
Obviously I know little about the "fracture plastic strain of steel structure" and less about a Young's Modulus, but since they are talking about stopping failure 100m under the impact, I think they are talking about the OVERALL DESIGN of the building, not the fire impact area.
Arthur
okay, this is a conspiracy! arthur admitted he doesn't know something.
now, i'm scared.
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 6 2006, 04:31 PM)
QUOTE (Temp+Feb 14 2006, 11:26 AM)
In my 911 world the TV footage was faked. There were no planes, no hijackers, no stand down orders, no phone calls. It becomes so simple. The building scars were caused by bombs, if they were real and not done by live editing.
I dismiss any post made by Temp after this MORONIC post.
A real tin-foil hat loony toon.
Arthur
Agreed.
The planets must have aligned. Too bad it'll only last for a few nanoseconds.

Here's another one for your INFERNO FILES.
Hay, this ones good. Thanks! It clearly shows white smoke and flames shooting out windows so far you can see them from this side view!
Excellent! 'Cause your Inferno Galleries need a LOT of work, Schneibster. Put it up, quick.
I dismiss any post made by Temp after this MORONIC post.
A real tin-foil hat loony toon.
Arthur
Agreed.
The planets must have aligned. Too bad it'll only last for a few nanoseconds.
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 6 2006, 01:39 PM)
QUOTE (JamesX+Mar 6 2006, 06:34 AM)

Here's another one for your INFERNO FILES.
Hay, this ones good. Thanks! It clearly shows white smoke and flames shooting out windows so far you can see them from this side view!
Excellent! 'Cause your Inferno Galleries need a LOT of work, Schneibster. Put it up, quick.
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 6 2006, 05:49 AM)
QUOTE (JamesX+Mar 6 2006, 05:38 AM)
Now back to my question for you (Arty, Schneib, whoever, anyone)
How does this:

turn into this:

Seriously, what's causing this huge outward explosion?
Can you anwer the question or not?
I the NIST, PBS, whatever?
Plain english, please.
C ) Its NOT from the WTC towers or WTC 7
Arthur
The title above the picture states (Great detective work, Arty) : US Customs & Border Protection : Department of Homeland Security : WTC 5
(NEWTON:
)

Extremely high Resolution Version (really big):
http://206.241.31.129/ImageCache/cgov/cont...v1/wtc_5f10.jpg
if you look(and zoom in) to the to the right of the h-beam in the foreground, you will see a row of horizontal beams which were sheared off close to the column they are attached to. there are four stories cut on the left side(the top four visible, floors four to seven), and one story one the right(the third floor).
they are cut at nearly the exact same distance from the column. there is simply NO WAY for this to happen naturally. those beams were purposely cut.
these bomb boys had a frickin' field day with the complex.
How does this:

turn into this:

Seriously, what's causing this huge outward explosion?
Can you anwer the question or not?
I the NIST, PBS, whatever?
Plain english, please.
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 6 2006, 04:08 PM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 6 2006, 06:58 AM)
C ) Its NOT from the WTC towers or WTC 7
Arthur
The title above the picture states (Great detective work, Arty) : US Customs & Border Protection : Department of Homeland Security : WTC 5
(NEWTON:

Extremely high Resolution Version (really big):
http://206.241.31.129/ImageCache/cgov/cont...v1/wtc_5f10.jpg
if you look(and zoom in) to the to the right of the h-beam in the foreground, you will see a row of horizontal beams which were sheared off close to the column they are attached to. there are four stories cut on the left side(the top four visible, floors four to seven), and one story one the right(the third floor).
they are cut at nearly the exact same distance from the column. there is simply NO WAY for this to happen naturally. those beams were purposely cut.
these bomb boys had a frickin' field day with the complex.
Some say that steel was melted (prior to the collapse) of the towers and WTC 7 through eutectic actions by commonly available chemicals that the buildings contained.
Sounds possible... however...
If so, one must ask oneself, "why have these eutectic actions never been observed in building fires before ?"... some far more intense that the comparatively piddly fires at WTC. All these same chemical elements and compounds are readily available in all buildings... aluminum, iron, gypsum, calcium, carbon, etc, etc, etc.
The towers were not constructed of exotic materials that other buildings do not contain. The fires were certainly no hotter, and ample evidence shows they were nowhere near the alleged temperatures commonly claimed.
Here is a picture of the east face of WTC 2 which is often bandied about as 'proof' of raging (or extremely hot) fires...

Do you see any raging fires here ?
Let's take a closer look at the Northeast corner {on the right in the above photo} which is clearly burning.
NIST states...
"The intense fire in the northeast corner opening of the 81st floor is still present. An unusual flame is visible within this fire.
In the upper photograph {Fig 9-44} a very bright flame, as opposed to the typical yellow or orange surrounding flames, which is generating a plume of white smoke, stands out.
The intensity of this flame is considerably brighter than normal flames.
It was easily identified in numerous photographs and videos shot from long distances at which the surrounding normal flames were not visible. The brightness of the flame, along with the white smoke, suggests that some type of metal is burning.
Metal combustion is known to generate much higher flame temperatures than hydrocarbon combustion, and, as a result to burn much brighter. It is difficult to identify what type of metal is burning.
Aluminum will burn, but in normal fires it usually melts instead because the metal surface is protected by an oxide layer that must be breeched before ignition can take place. Aluminum oxide melts at high temperatures that are not typically reached in normal fires.
Source: http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-5A_chap_9-AppxC.pdf
Source: http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-5A_chap_9-AppxC.pdf
Just before 9:52 a.m. puffs of smoke and/or dust were expelled from multiple locations on the north face near the east edge. Almost immediately a bright spot appeared at the top of a window on the 80th floor four removed from the east edge, and a glowing liquid began to pour from this location.
Many such liquid flows were observed from near this location prior to the collapse of the tower. Several were accompanied by puffs of dust and smoke that were now occuring frequently.
Source: http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-5A_chap_9-AppxC.pdf

http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/thermite001.jpg
Just coincidentally, this unusual flame led to molten metal issuing from this area...

http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/NEnorthface953.jpg
and pouring down the north corner of the building...

http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/molten05.jpg
Video 1...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2...raplanet+9%2F11
Video 2...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=75...=9%2F11+footage
Nope... nothing to see here, folks... move along now... Jerry Springer is on, and you don't want to miss the show.
Sounds possible... however...
If so, one must ask oneself, "why have these eutectic actions never been observed in building fires before ?"... some far more intense that the comparatively piddly fires at WTC. All these same chemical elements and compounds are readily available in all buildings... aluminum, iron, gypsum, calcium, carbon, etc, etc, etc.
The towers were not constructed of exotic materials that other buildings do not contain. The fires were certainly no hotter, and ample evidence shows they were nowhere near the alleged temperatures commonly claimed.
Here is a picture of the east face of WTC 2 which is often bandied about as 'proof' of raging (or extremely hot) fires...

Do you see any raging fires here ?
Let's take a closer look at the Northeast corner {on the right in the above photo} which is clearly burning.
NIST states...
QUOTE
"The intense fire in the northeast corner opening of the 81st floor is still present. An unusual flame is visible within this fire.
In the upper photograph {Fig 9-44} a very bright flame, as opposed to the typical yellow or orange surrounding flames, which is generating a plume of white smoke, stands out.
The intensity of this flame is considerably brighter than normal flames.
It was easily identified in numerous photographs and videos shot from long distances at which the surrounding normal flames were not visible. The brightness of the flame, along with the white smoke, suggests that some type of metal is burning.
Metal combustion is known to generate much higher flame temperatures than hydrocarbon combustion, and, as a result to burn much brighter. It is difficult to identify what type of metal is burning.
Aluminum will burn, but in normal fires it usually melts instead because the metal surface is protected by an oxide layer that must be breeched before ignition can take place. Aluminum oxide melts at high temperatures that are not typically reached in normal fires.
Source: http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-5A_chap_9-AppxC.pdf
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
"The intense fire in the northeast corner opening of the 81st floor is still present. An unusual flame is visible within this fire. In the upper photograph {Fig 9-44} a very bright flame, as opposed to the typical yellow or orange surrounding flames, which is generating a plume of white smoke, stands out. The intensity of this flame is considerably brighter than normal flames. It was easily identified in numerous photographs and videos shot from long distances at which the surrounding normal flames were not visible. The brightness of the flame, along with the white smoke, suggests that some type of metal is burning. Metal combustion is known to generate much higher flame temperatures than hydrocarbon combustion, and, as a result to burn much brighter. It is difficult to identify what type of metal is burning. Aluminum will burn, but in normal fires it usually melts instead because the metal surface is protected by an oxide layer that must be breeched before ignition can take place. Aluminum oxide melts at high temperatures that are not typically reached in normal fires. |
Source: http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-5A_chap_9-AppxC.pdf
Just before 9:52 a.m. puffs of smoke and/or dust were expelled from multiple locations on the north face near the east edge. Almost immediately a bright spot appeared at the top of a window on the 80th floor four removed from the east edge, and a glowing liquid began to pour from this location.
Many such liquid flows were observed from near this location prior to the collapse of the tower. Several were accompanied by puffs of dust and smoke that were now occuring frequently.
Source: http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-5A_chap_9-AppxC.pdf

http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/thermite001.jpg
Just coincidentally, this unusual flame led to molten metal issuing from this area...

http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/NEnorthface953.jpg
and pouring down the north corner of the building...

http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/molten05.jpg
Video 1...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2...raplanet+9%2F11
Video 2...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=75...=9%2F11+footage
Nope... nothing to see here, folks... move along now... Jerry Springer is on, and you don't want to miss the show.
QUOTE (Mel_Temp+Mar 6 2006, 05:36 PM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 6 2006, 04:31 PM)
QUOTE (Temp+Feb 14 2006, 11:26 AM)
In my 911 world the TV footage was faked. There were no planes, no hijackers, no stand down orders, no phone calls. It becomes so simple. The building scars were caused by bombs, if they were real and not done by live editing.
I dismiss any post made by Temp after this MORONIC post.
A real tin-foil hat loony toon.
Arthur
Agreed.
The planets must have aligned. Too bad it'll only last for a few nanoseconds.
Don't break your wrist hand waving.
I dismiss any post made by Temp after this MORONIC post.
A real tin-foil hat loony toon.
Arthur
Agreed.
The planets must have aligned. Too bad it'll only last for a few nanoseconds.
Don't break your wrist hand waving.
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 6 2006, 01:19 PM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 6 2006, 02:25 PM)
There are to many possibilities to conclude anything don't you think?
But cement is one of the possibilities, for sure.
Yes. It's hard to say what it is. It looks like a coating, but it doesn't appear the core was encased fully in cement. It looks like there are patches of it stuck to the beam as you look up the beam on the left.
I think on some floors, but particularly the lower floors, you probably had some columns "dressed up" so as to not look, well like columns. Its COSMETIC though, its not like they are part of a reinforced concrete structure.

http://206.241.31.129/ImageCache/cgov/cont...v1/wtc_5f10.jpg
See the column to the center left with this cosmetic cladding still evident.
This is from WTC 5 but I think it shows the concept.
Arthur

Here's another one for your INFERNO FILES.
Hay, this ones good. Thanks! It clearly shows white smoke and flames shooting out windows so far you can see them from this side view!
Excellent! 'Cause your Inferno Galleries need a LOT of work, Schneibster. Put it up, quick.
Thanks also for complimenting me by calling me Schneibster. I know my posts are good but hes much better.
PS: Did you talk to someone about your homoerotic tendencies yet? I think it's more than Schneibster's posts you like. You just can't get him out of your sick mind...
Thanks also for complimenting me by calling me Schneibster.
No problem, Schneib.

Here's another one for your INFERNO FILES.
Hay, this ones good. Thanks! It clearly shows white smoke and flames shooting out windows so far you can see them from this side view!
Excellent! 'Cause your Inferno Galleries need a LOT of work, Schneibster. Put it up, quick.
Thanks also for complimenting me by calling me Schneibster. I know my posts are good but hes much better.
PS: Did you talk to someone about your homoerotic tendencies yet? I think it's more than Schneibster's posts you like. You just can't get him out of your sick mind...
is there something wrong with being a homosexual?
you seem to bring up sexual orientation as an 'argument' against a poster's information's validity.
just saying, you might want to focus on other 'weaknesses' of your opponents for your ad hominem attacks. some boys like the shaft up the hollow core. i'll bet you're quite fascinated with the process, seeing as how you keep bringing it up.
the whole 'tube within a tube' thing, you know?
anyway, may the beauty of the rainbow come all over you.
Thanks also for complimenting me by calling me Schneibster.
No problem, Schneib.
Thanks JamieA$$!

Here's another one for your INFERNO FILES.
Hay, this ones good. Thanks! It clearly shows white smoke and flames shooting out windows so far you can see them from this side view!
Excellent! 'Cause your Inferno Galleries need a LOT of work, Schneibster. Put it up, quick.
Thanks also for complimenting me by calling me Schneibster. I know my posts are good but hes much better.
PS: Did you talk to someone about your homoerotic tendencies yet? I think it's more than Schneibster's posts you like. You just can't get him out of your sick mind...
is there something wrong with being a homosexual?
you seem to bring up sexual orientation as an 'argument' against a poster's information's validity.
just saying, you might want to focus on other 'weaknesses' of your opponents for your ad hominem attacks. some boys like the shaft up the hollow core. i'll bet you're quite fascinated with the process, seeing as how you keep bringing it up.
the whole 'tube within a tube' thing, you know?
anyway, may the beauty of the rainbow come all over you.

Here's another one for your INFERNO FILES.
Hay, this ones good. Thanks! It clearly shows white smoke and flames shooting out windows so far you can see them from this side view!
Excellent! 'Cause your Inferno Galleries need a LOT of work, Schneibster. Put it up, quick.
Thanks also for complimenting me by calling me Schneibster. I know my posts are good but hes much better.
PS: Did you talk to someone about your homoerotic tendencies yet? I think it's more than Schneibster's posts you like. You just can't get him out of your sick mind...
is there something wrong with being a homosexual?
you seem to bring up sexual orientation as an 'argument' against a poster's information's validity.
just saying, you might want to focus on other 'weaknesses' of your opponents for your ad hominem attacks. some boys like the shaft up the hollow core. i'll bet you're quite fascinated with the process, seeing as how you keep bringing it up.
the whole 'tube within a tube' thing, you know?
anyway, may the beauty of the rainbow come all over you.
Even a straight person who sees the people they fantasize with in everyone is sick. It doesn't matter if jamie is 'M', 'F' or 'X'.
Give me a break, this is the most dishonest thing you've said so far. Jamie(whatever) never posts information. Hes here because one of you clowns brought him here to harrass us out of the thread.
NOT GONNA HAPPEN
Hes just embarrassing the the whole bunch of you.
Go ahead, show me where he posted something new... "Information" that we havent already discussed...
Pure BS Heh!
But cement is one of the possibilities, for sure.
Yes. It's hard to say what it is. It looks like a coating, but it doesn't appear the core was encased fully in cement. It looks like there are patches of it stuck to the beam as you look up the beam on the left.
I think on some floors, but particularly the lower floors, you probably had some columns "dressed up" so as to not look, well like columns. Its COSMETIC though, its not like they are part of a reinforced concrete structure.

http://206.241.31.129/ImageCache/cgov/cont...v1/wtc_5f10.jpg
See the column to the center left with this cosmetic cladding still evident.
This is from WTC 5 but I think it shows the concept.
Arthur
QUOTE (JamesX+Mar 6 2006, 05:50 PM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 6 2006, 01:39 PM)
QUOTE (JamesX+Mar 6 2006, 06:34 AM)

Here's another one for your INFERNO FILES.
Hay, this ones good. Thanks! It clearly shows white smoke and flames shooting out windows so far you can see them from this side view!
Excellent! 'Cause your Inferno Galleries need a LOT of work, Schneibster. Put it up, quick.
Thanks also for complimenting me by calling me Schneibster. I know my posts are good but hes much better.
PS: Did you talk to someone about your homoerotic tendencies yet? I think it's more than Schneibster's posts you like. You just can't get him out of your sick mind...
QUOTE (Commen sense aka da Schneez+Mar 6 2006, 06:29 PM)
Thanks also for complimenting me by calling me Schneibster.
No problem, Schneib.
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 6 2006, 06:29 PM)
QUOTE (JamesX+Mar 6 2006, 05:50 PM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 6 2006, 01:39 PM)
QUOTE (JamesX+Mar 6 2006, 06:34 AM)

Here's another one for your INFERNO FILES.
Hay, this ones good. Thanks! It clearly shows white smoke and flames shooting out windows so far you can see them from this side view!
Excellent! 'Cause your Inferno Galleries need a LOT of work, Schneibster. Put it up, quick.
Thanks also for complimenting me by calling me Schneibster. I know my posts are good but hes much better.
PS: Did you talk to someone about your homoerotic tendencies yet? I think it's more than Schneibster's posts you like. You just can't get him out of your sick mind...
is there something wrong with being a homosexual?
you seem to bring up sexual orientation as an 'argument' against a poster's information's validity.
just saying, you might want to focus on other 'weaknesses' of your opponents for your ad hominem attacks. some boys like the shaft up the hollow core. i'll bet you're quite fascinated with the process, seeing as how you keep bringing it up.
the whole 'tube within a tube' thing, you know?
anyway, may the beauty of the rainbow come all over you.
double post
Aluminum doesn't have to burn in order to have an orange color. It will melt and become orange is the temperature is about 800 to 1000C. Whatever metal was pouring out seems to be inside the building in fairly large amounts. It's not likely metals other than aluminum were in there at those amounts.
The molten aluminum could have been reacting with other materials in the building or aircraft that contained oxygen. That could be an additional heat source in addition to the fires themselves.
Magnesium is another possibility as a heat source. I don't know offhand if there were any significant amounts of magnesium in the 767. Perhaps there was some in the wheel hubs or other components. Magnesium burns fiercely and water actually makes it burn hotter.
Some of the metal pours out the window with a silver color right from the start. Some pours out with an orange color. Some start out orange and then turn silver on the way down. Some are silver then turn back to orange when they strike the facade and then back to silver again.
The fact that they change color is not inconsistent with aluminum which appears silvery near it's melting point but orange above its melting point. I don't think it is steel. Certainly the drops that exit with a silver color right from the start are molten, which means they can't be steel, otherwise they'd be glowing at 1550C.
Here's one pic where they appear silver from the start:

In another pic, some are orange and others appear silver.

In another pic, most appear orange but there are still some that appear silvery, especially the larger ones near the bottom. The orange ones may have been striking the facade.
The molten aluminum could have been reacting with other materials in the building or aircraft that contained oxygen. That could be an additional heat source in addition to the fires themselves.
Magnesium is another possibility as a heat source. I don't know offhand if there were any significant amounts of magnesium in the 767. Perhaps there was some in the wheel hubs or other components. Magnesium burns fiercely and water actually makes it burn hotter.
Some of the metal pours out the window with a silver color right from the start. Some pours out with an orange color. Some start out orange and then turn silver on the way down. Some are silver then turn back to orange when they strike the facade and then back to silver again.
The fact that they change color is not inconsistent with aluminum which appears silvery near it's melting point but orange above its melting point. I don't think it is steel. Certainly the drops that exit with a silver color right from the start are molten, which means they can't be steel, otherwise they'd be glowing at 1550C.
Here's one pic where they appear silver from the start:

In another pic, some are orange and others appear silver.

In another pic, most appear orange but there are still some that appear silvery, especially the larger ones near the bottom. The orange ones may have been striking the facade.
Regarding the sulfur, there were pulverized materials such as the gypsum in the pit at high temperatures for weeks along with bare steel. That's not something characteristic of an ordinary fire where the building still stands and the fire is put out in a matter of hours. I don't think there would be sulfidation of steel in an ordinary building fire unless there was a diesel fire burning or some other unusual circumstance where sulfur-bearing material was present in a powder or vapor form. It's also a matter of if the insulation stays on the steel. If it stays on, as it probably would in a normal building fire, then the sulphur can't reach the steel.
It's possible people have observed sulphidation in more typical building fires. It's something that would need to be looked up. I don't know offhand.
It's possible people have observed sulphidation in more typical building fires. It's something that would need to be looked up. I don't know offhand.
QUOTE (gordon+Mar 6 2006, 04:47 PM)
Because of the weak fire resistance capacity of steel, the high temperature caused by the burning of aeroplane oil will soften the steel. So the material of steel under fire is needed to be setup, whose other parameter is the same to normal steel except that the Yang¡¯s modulus and strength is set as 1/20 of normal ones, to approach the performance of steel at 700¡æ.
............................
Improving the ductility of structure elements is an efficient way to avoid the chain collapse happens. In the simulation above, if the fracture plastic strain of steel structure is 0.5%, the chain collapse will take place entirely. However, if the fracture strain is improved to 1%, the impact energy of upper floors will be absorbed by the lower structures and the chain collapse will be stopped at about 100m under the airplane impact zone. When the fracture strain is improved to 5%, only part of the structure near the airplane impacting zone will be damaged, and no chain collapse will take place. Hence, if the structure has enough ductility to absorb the energy of upper floors¡¯ collapse, the chain damage will be controlled. Even though consider the influence of heap load, the towers still have much larger chance to escape from the entire collapse
The compilers of this paper have used an overestimation of the steel temperatures.
They show that continuation of collapse is dependent on a fracture deformation of less than 1%, at that temperature and with a reduced Youngs modulus.
Bazant Zhou show that buckling does not occur until a 3% vertical deformation. This report, when corrected to show the accepted reality of the temperature ranges and Youngs modulus, supports the postulation that additional energies, other than those from aircraft impact and fire, were necessary to cause a total collapse.
When the fracture strain is improved to 5%, only part of the structure near the airplane impacting zone will be damaged, and no chain collapse will take place.
How does this square with the belief that collapse initiation will inevitably lead to a total collapse?
Gordon.
I have no physics degree but what I would like to know is how can 110 story office building made up of small pieces tilt the top 30 like this...



(which it did regardless of CD or not) ...and NOT destroy the rest below it in short order? It happened, be it CD or not.
The key doesn't seem to me to be how it fell to the ground but how it tilted like this in the first place. I think the NIST does a good job of providing not only the explination but the evidence to support it using this document...
http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-5A_chap_9-AppxC.pdf
Sorry but if one persons calculation which hasn't passed peer review in a civil engineering journal says what I'm seeing can't happen then I suspect the calculation is wrong. That's just me. No one else has to agree.
............................
Improving the ductility of structure elements is an efficient way to avoid the chain collapse happens. In the simulation above, if the fracture plastic strain of steel structure is 0.5%, the chain collapse will take place entirely. However, if the fracture strain is improved to 1%, the impact energy of upper floors will be absorbed by the lower structures and the chain collapse will be stopped at about 100m under the airplane impact zone. When the fracture strain is improved to 5%, only part of the structure near the airplane impacting zone will be damaged, and no chain collapse will take place. Hence, if the structure has enough ductility to absorb the energy of upper floors¡¯ collapse, the chain damage will be controlled. Even though consider the influence of heap load, the towers still have much larger chance to escape from the entire collapse
The compilers of this paper have used an overestimation of the steel temperatures.
They show that continuation of collapse is dependent on a fracture deformation of less than 1%, at that temperature and with a reduced Youngs modulus.
Bazant Zhou show that buckling does not occur until a 3% vertical deformation. This report, when corrected to show the accepted reality of the temperature ranges and Youngs modulus, supports the postulation that additional energies, other than those from aircraft impact and fire, were necessary to cause a total collapse.
When the fracture strain is improved to 5%, only part of the structure near the airplane impacting zone will be damaged, and no chain collapse will take place.
How does this square with the belief that collapse initiation will inevitably lead to a total collapse?
Gordon.
I have no physics degree but what I would like to know is how can 110 story office building made up of small pieces tilt the top 30 like this...



(which it did regardless of CD or not) ...and NOT destroy the rest below it in short order? It happened, be it CD or not.
The key doesn't seem to me to be how it fell to the ground but how it tilted like this in the first place. I think the NIST does a good job of providing not only the explination but the evidence to support it using this document...
http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-5A_chap_9-AppxC.pdf
Sorry but if one persons calculation which hasn't passed peer review in a civil engineering journal says what I'm seeing can't happen then I suspect the calculation is wrong. That's just me. No one else has to agree.
QUOTE (Foxx+Mar 6 2006, 02:09 PM)
Some say that steel was melted (prior to the collapse) of the towers and WTC 7 through eutectic actions by commonly available chemicals that the buildings contained.
I believe that is a very limited few, and none of them OFFICIAL.
Are you aware of anyone on this Forum that have argued that an eutectic action was even partially responsible for the towers (or WTC 7) collapse?
And what's with your fixation on Jerry Springer?
You seem to know whenever he's on.
I thought only pathatic paranoid losers who believe the govt is out to get them watch BS like the Jerry Springer show.
Arthur
I believe that is a very limited few, and none of them OFFICIAL.
Are you aware of anyone on this Forum that have argued that an eutectic action was even partially responsible for the towers (or WTC 7) collapse?
And what's with your fixation on Jerry Springer?
You seem to know whenever he's on.
I thought only pathatic paranoid losers who believe the govt is out to get them watch BS like the Jerry Springer show.
Arthur
QUOTE (JamesX aka jackA$$ aka moron aka bitchA$$+Mar 6 2006, 06:36 PM)
QUOTE (Commen sense aka da Schneez+Mar 6 2006, 06:29 PM)
Thanks also for complimenting me by calling me Schneibster.
No problem, Schneib.
Thanks JamieA$$!
QUOTE (newton+Mar 6 2006, 06:43 PM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 6 2006, 06:29 PM)
QUOTE (JamesX+Mar 6 2006, 05:50 PM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 6 2006, 01:39 PM)
QUOTE (JamesX+Mar 6 2006, 06:34 AM)

Here's another one for your INFERNO FILES.
Hay, this ones good. Thanks! It clearly shows white smoke and flames shooting out windows so far you can see them from this side view!
Excellent! 'Cause your Inferno Galleries need a LOT of work, Schneibster. Put it up, quick.
Thanks also for complimenting me by calling me Schneibster. I know my posts are good but hes much better.
PS: Did you talk to someone about your homoerotic tendencies yet? I think it's more than Schneibster's posts you like. You just can't get him out of your sick mind...
is there something wrong with being a homosexual?
you seem to bring up sexual orientation as an 'argument' against a poster's information's validity.
just saying, you might want to focus on other 'weaknesses' of your opponents for your ad hominem attacks. some boys like the shaft up the hollow core. i'll bet you're quite fascinated with the process, seeing as how you keep bringing it up.
the whole 'tube within a tube' thing, you know?
anyway, may the beauty of the rainbow come all over you.
QUOTE (newton+Mar 6 2006, 06:43 PM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 6 2006, 06:29 PM)
QUOTE (JamesX+Mar 6 2006, 05:50 PM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 6 2006, 01:39 PM)
QUOTE (JamesX+Mar 6 2006, 06:34 AM)

Here's another one for your INFERNO FILES.
Hay, this ones good. Thanks! It clearly shows white smoke and flames shooting out windows so far you can see them from this side view!
Excellent! 'Cause your Inferno Galleries need a LOT of work, Schneibster. Put it up, quick.
Thanks also for complimenting me by calling me Schneibster. I know my posts are good but hes much better.
PS: Did you talk to someone about your homoerotic tendencies yet? I think it's more than Schneibster's posts you like. You just can't get him out of your sick mind...
is there something wrong with being a homosexual?
you seem to bring up sexual orientation as an 'argument' against a poster's information's validity.
just saying, you might want to focus on other 'weaknesses' of your opponents for your ad hominem attacks. some boys like the shaft up the hollow core. i'll bet you're quite fascinated with the process, seeing as how you keep bringing it up.
the whole 'tube within a tube' thing, you know?
anyway, may the beauty of the rainbow come all over you.
Even a straight person who sees the people they fantasize with in everyone is sick. It doesn't matter if jamie is 'M', 'F' or 'X'.
QUOTE
you seem to bring up sexual orientation as an 'argument' against a poster's information's validity.
Give me a break, this is the most dishonest thing you've said so far. Jamie(whatever) never posts information. Hes here because one of you clowns brought him here to harrass us out of the thread.
NOT GONNA HAPPEN
Hes just embarrassing the the whole bunch of you.
Go ahead, show me where he posted something new... "Information" that we havent already discussed...
Pure BS Heh!
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 6 2006, 03:06 PM)
Magnesium is another possibility as a heat source. I don't know offhand if there were any significant amounts of magnesium in the 767. Perhaps there was some in the wheel hubs or other components. Magnesium burns fiercely and water actually makes it burn hotter.
The wheel rims are a Magnesium Alloy.
They will burn, but still won't easily ignite.
http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:QA3h...uchdown-6-c.jpg
http://www.mikeindustries.com/blog/images/inline/jetblue.jpg

Foxx leaves out VERY SELECTIVE pieces from that NIST report.
I suggest you read the ACTUAL report.
Arthur
The wheel rims are a Magnesium Alloy.
They will burn, but still won't easily ignite.
http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:QA3h...uchdown-6-c.jpg
http://www.mikeindustries.com/blog/images/inline/jetblue.jpg

Foxx leaves out VERY SELECTIVE pieces from that NIST report.
I suggest you read the ACTUAL report.
Arthur
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 6 2006, 07:40 PM)
Foxx leaves out VERY SELECTIVE pieces from that NIST report.
I suggest you read the ACTUAL report.
Arthur
Which only proves metamars and scholars for truth are only scholars for dishonesty since Foxx is hes right hand man.
I suggest you read the ACTUAL report.
Arthur
Which only proves metamars and scholars for truth are only scholars for dishonesty since Foxx is hes right hand man.
Schneez, I'm not here to give you new information. I came here to get a 'common sense', plain english answer to the question
How does this:

turn into this:


...in plain english, s'il vous plait?
How does this:

turn into this:


...in plain english, s'il vous plait?
There are other flammable in the aircraft, such as hydraulic fluid and pressurized oxygen containers. Someone would have to look at a whole list of what's inside a 767. It's a unique event to have a jumbo jet inside an office building.
Magnesium alloys can melt around 550C or lower depending on the alloying. Something like melted magnesium wheels in the building in the presence of oxygen can burn fiercely. If you had a situation like oxygen leaking from canisters and molten aluminum or magnesium alloy, that could produce a very hot fire. Most of the plane probably ended up in the northeast corner of the south tower. Only one landing gear assembly came out of the building, so the others must have still been inside.
Magnesium alloys can melt around 550C or lower depending on the alloying. Something like melted magnesium wheels in the building in the presence of oxygen can burn fiercely. If you had a situation like oxygen leaking from canisters and molten aluminum or magnesium alloy, that could produce a very hot fire. Most of the plane probably ended up in the northeast corner of the south tower. Only one landing gear assembly came out of the building, so the others must have still been inside.
James X asks a simple question, why are you not able to answer it? The computer models you speak of would be of great help if they exist. Please enlighten us all CS, Arthur, it shouldn't be this hard to convince us of the truths you speak of.


QUOTE (newton+Mar 6 2006, 01:59 PM)
if you look(and zoom in) to the to the right of the h-beam in the foreground, you will see a row of horizontal beams which were sheared off close to the column they are attached to. there are four stories cut on the left side(the top four visible, floors four to seven), and one story one the right(the third floor).
they are cut at nearly the exact same distance from the column. there is simply NO WAY for this to happen naturally. those beams were purposely cut.
these bomb boys had a frickin' field day with the complex.
So, newt I take it you NOW believe that WTC 5 was demolished by explosives as well?
Arthur
they are cut at nearly the exact same distance from the column. there is simply NO WAY for this to happen naturally. those beams were purposely cut.
these bomb boys had a frickin' field day with the complex.
So, newt I take it you NOW believe that WTC 5 was demolished by explosives as well?
Arthur
QUOTE (Rove's shill+Mar 6 2006, 04:17 PM)
James X asks a simple question, why are you not able to answer it? The computer models you speak of would be of great help if they exist. Please enlighten us all CS, Arthur, it shouldn't be this hard to convince us of the truths you speak of.
Simple questions don't equate to simple questions.
i.e Where did LIFE come from?
The ANSWER to JamesX question, how did the IMPACT of a high speed jet followed by the unrestrained fires within the towers may be simple but it took ~16 million dollars and a lot of effort by a lot of very smart people to detemine.
Luckily for us, they explained it all in the NIST report.
I suggest you both READ IT.
NIST provided a SIX month period for you to ask questions, did you avail yourself of this opportunity?
If not, those of us who HAVE read it, will be glad to TRY to answer specific questions you may have.
Arthur
Simple questions don't equate to simple questions.
i.e Where did LIFE come from?
The ANSWER to JamesX question, how did the IMPACT of a high speed jet followed by the unrestrained fires within the towers may be simple but it took ~16 million dollars and a lot of effort by a lot of very smart people to detemine.
Luckily for us, they explained it all in the NIST report.
I suggest you both READ IT.
NIST provided a SIX month period for you to ask questions, did you avail yourself of this opportunity?
If not, those of us who HAVE read it, will be glad to TRY to answer specific questions you may have.
Arthur
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 6 2006, 01:52 PM)
QUOTE (Rove's shill+Mar 6 2006, 06:37 AM)
Weak, Common Sense why would you drop them from ten feet up? Recreating the collapse according to the record is'nt your strong point, eh?
Are you ready to produce the model you say exists, yet? You've had plenty of time.
4+ years.
I guess your hand waving covered this from your eyes...

http://www.geocities.com/debunking911//computermodel.jpg



Silverstein's insurers claim the collapse of the south tower, Two WTC, rendered the north tower, One WTC, unsalvageable even before it collapsed. If they prevail, Silverstein would receive only $3.5 billion (ENR 10/7 p. 11). Click here to view one WTC collapse sequence (SECOND DOWN North tower lasted longer due to impact site. (Graphics courtesy of Weidlinger Associates Inc.))
The insurers commissioned their own engineering study, written by Exponent Failure Analysis Associates Inc., Los Angeles. Also released, the report disagrees with the Weidlinger findings, but mostly on points relating to the insurance battle. Engineers from Wiss, Janney, Elstner and Associates Inc., Northbrook, Ill., also working for the insurers, would not comment on their work.
In the Silverstein study, engineers put forth similar but not exact failure scenarios for both towers: The planes and flying debris hobbled the buildings at the zones of impact. Intact columns, their fireproofing knocked off by flying debris, ultimately lost strength and failed in the fuel-triggered fire.
Though hit by the second plane later than One WTC, Two WTC fell first, "primarily" because the plane struck it off-center and at an angle and caused damage that compromised the southeast corner of the core. "This confirms an earlier theory," says Levy. Click here to view two WTC collapse sequence (FIRST DOWN Plane took out corner of core, which hastened collapse. (Graphics courtesy of Weidlinger Associates Inc.)).
At each tower, exterior wall and core columns, connected by a steel "hat truss" at the building's top, initially redistributed loads away from the damaged areas to remaining columns. In Two WTC, the hat truss eventually could not deal with the situation of the corner columns gone, says Levy.
The team determined that the initial hits destroyed 33 of 59 perimeter columns in the north face of One WTC and 29 of 59 perimeter columns in the south face of Two WTC. Computer analysis showed that the impact of the planes also destroyed or disabled some 20 of 47 columns in the center of the core of One WTC and some five of 47 columns in the southeast corner of the core of Two WTC.
The Silverstein findings are based on analysis of original structural drawings, thousands of photos and dozens of videos. The team used computer modeling, including a program called FLEX developed by Weidlinger for the Dept. of Defense, and fire evaluation techniques to simulate the condition of each tower at critical times, creating impact and collapse sequences.
http://construction.com/NewsCenter/Headlin...R/20021104d.asp
Abstract: Mechanical simulation and parameter discussion for the collapse of WTC (World Trade Center) after aeroplane impact are presented in this paper with the dynamic FEA software of LS-DYNA. The simulation results are very close to the real situation, which means that such type of special damage process can be recurred on the computer with proper parameter and numerical model. The results show that the direct reason for the collapse is the softening of steel under fire and the chain reaction damage of floors under the impact load of upper floors. If improve the fire resistance and the ductility of the structure, the collapse may can be avoided.
1. Introduction
The two towers of world trade center in New York were impact by two aeroplanes on Sep. 11 of 2001. The two towers were collapsed completely and more than 3 thousand people died in this affair. This affair obtained everyone¡¯s focus and many explanations are put forward for the reason of this collapse, including fire damage, heaped load, second-damage and so on. Because the collapse of the towers is very complex and it is difficult to recur by test, most explanations are based on qualitative analysis. However, the computer technology applied us a chance to simulate the collapse in the computer, so that the reason for the collapse can be discussed, as well as the methods can be raised to avoid this disaster.
2. Numerical model
This simulation is based on the dynamic FEA software of LS-DYNA, which is developed by the Software Company of Livemore.
The WTC is topical tube-in-tube structure system, whose outer tube is dense-columns-deep-beams system. The width of the column is 476.25mm while the space between columns is just 558.8mm. The thickness of beams is 1219.2mm. In order to simplify the numerical model and decrease the degree of freedom, the outer dense-columns-deep-beams tube system and inner steel truss tube system are approached with shell elements. The thickness of shell elements is established with equivalent section method. Such approximate tube has the same stiffness of global bending and axial deformation as the real structure, while the local bending stiffness of structure elements is not consisted with the real condition. Since the primary deformation of tube-in-tube structure system is global bending and axial compression deformation, this approximate method should be feasible.
The material of inner and outer tube is set to be steel in the numerical model, with the constitutive relationship of Material 3, Plastic Kinematic model in LS-DYNA. The density of steel is 7800Kg/m3. The Yang¡¯s modulus is 200GPa. The Poisson ratio is 0.27. The yield strength is set to be 310MPa, according to Steel A440 in U.S. The hardening modulus is set to be 2GPa, 1% of initial modulus. As the fracture of steel is considered in this analysis, the failure plastic deformation is discussed as parameters, whose value is set as 0.5%, 1% and 5% respectively
The material of floor is set to be RC material, with the constitutive relationship of Material 3, Plastic Kinematic model, too. The density is 2500Kg/m3. The Yang¡¯s modulus is 30GPa. The Poisson ration is 0.2. The yield strength is 30MPa. The hardening modulus is 0. All the fracture plastic deformation is set to be the maximum compression strain of concrete, whose value is 0.38%.
Because of the weak fire resistance capacity of steel, the high temperature caused by the burning of aeroplane oil will soften the steel. So the material of steel under fire is needed to be setup, whose other parameter is the same to normal steel except that the Yang¡¯s modulus and strength is set as 1/20 of normal ones, to approach the performance of steel at 700¡æ.
As the collapse analysis is very complex, the Single Face Erosion contact module of LS-DYNA is used in this case. This contact model can search the contact face automatically to establish the contact relationship, and those complex border conditions such as penetration, erosion can be considered, too. The friction factor of material is set to be 0.25.
Since the LS-DYNA is explicit dynamic software, when applying the gravity load, the structure will vibrate for a short time. It is not consisted with the real conditions. So the whole computation should be divided into two stages. In the first stage, the towers have not been impacted. The gravity load is applied to the model and relatively large damp ratio is applied to the towers, whose value is 10%. Computing the model until the vertical vibration disappeared. Then, the second computation stage starts. In the second stage, some elements in the tower are ¡°killed¡± to approach the hole of airplane impact, and the material property of some survival elements is modified to simulate the fire influence, too.
4 Conclusions
The following conclusions are obtained from the simulation.
1) The reasons for the entire collapse of the towers are the structure elements¡¯ soften of fire and impact of the upper layers¡¯ collapse. From the numerical results, the towers does not collapse immediately after the impact. The north tower can go on standing. Likely, the south one dose not collapse, too, though there are some large deformations in it, which are caused by the asymmetric damage. This is consisted with the real situations.
2) Improving the structure fire resistance ability or control the fire influence area will avoid or delay the structure collapse, efficiently. We simulate the fire influence by adjusting the material property of elements. From the numerical results, even though the structure has been damaged seriously by the impact, if the influence area is smaller than 20%~25% of the survival section in the tower, the collapse still can be avoided. When more than 30~50% of the survival section near the impact zone fails, the collapse will start.
3) When the towers go into the collapse stage, the reason for the chain failure of un-impact layers is the impulse of upper collapsing floors. The impact force of upper floors is much larger than the heap load. And because there are a lot of bump and eject on the contact surface of collapsing floors and lower floors, the fragment of structure falls consecutively so that there is no chance to form a lot of heap load. So the heap load is not the critical reason for the collapse.
4) Improving the ductility of structure elements is an efficient way to avoid the chain collapse happens. In the simulation above, if the fracture plastic strain of steel structure is 0.5%, the chain collapse will take place entirely. However, if the fracture strain is improved to 1%, the impact energy of upper floors will be absorbed by the lower structures and the chain collapse will be stopped at about 100m under the airplane impact zone. When the fracture strain is improved to 5%, only part of the structure near the airplane impacting zone will be damaged, and no chain collapse will take place. Hence, if the structure has enough ductility to absorb the energy of upper floors¡¯ collapse, the chain damage will be controlled. Even though consider the influence of heap load, the towers still have much larger chance to escape from the entire collapse.
http://www.luxinzheng.net/publications/english_WTC.htm
That's TWO computer models done outside NIST (Plus the NIST final report which says there was one done by NIST [first image above]) which say it CAN happen. Wheres yours saying it can't?
Large font for the hand waving impaired.
Rove, why do you continue to lie? I have shown you this over and over...
Rove, why do you continue to lie? I have shown you this over and over...
Don't have a heart attack, buddy.

Are you ready to produce the model you say exists, yet? You've had plenty of time.
4+ years.
I guess your hand waving covered this from your eyes...

http://www.geocities.com/debunking911//computermodel.jpg



Silverstein's insurers claim the collapse of the south tower, Two WTC, rendered the north tower, One WTC, unsalvageable even before it collapsed. If they prevail, Silverstein would receive only $3.5 billion (ENR 10/7 p. 11). Click here to view one WTC collapse sequence (SECOND DOWN North tower lasted longer due to impact site. (Graphics courtesy of Weidlinger Associates Inc.))
The insurers commissioned their own engineering study, written by Exponent Failure Analysis Associates Inc., Los Angeles. Also released, the report disagrees with the Weidlinger findings, but mostly on points relating to the insurance battle. Engineers from Wiss, Janney, Elstner and Associates Inc., Northbrook, Ill., also working for the insurers, would not comment on their work.
In the Silverstein study, engineers put forth similar but not exact failure scenarios for both towers: The planes and flying debris hobbled the buildings at the zones of impact. Intact columns, their fireproofing knocked off by flying debris, ultimately lost strength and failed in the fuel-triggered fire.
Though hit by the second plane later than One WTC, Two WTC fell first, "primarily" because the plane struck it off-center and at an angle and caused damage that compromised the southeast corner of the core. "This confirms an earlier theory," says Levy. Click here to view two WTC collapse sequence (FIRST DOWN Plane took out corner of core, which hastened collapse. (Graphics courtesy of Weidlinger Associates Inc.)).
At each tower, exterior wall and core columns, connected by a steel "hat truss" at the building's top, initially redistributed loads away from the damaged areas to remaining columns. In Two WTC, the hat truss eventually could not deal with the situation of the corner columns gone, says Levy.
The team determined that the initial hits destroyed 33 of 59 perimeter columns in the north face of One WTC and 29 of 59 perimeter columns in the south face of Two WTC. Computer analysis showed that the impact of the planes also destroyed or disabled some 20 of 47 columns in the center of the core of One WTC and some five of 47 columns in the southeast corner of the core of Two WTC.
The Silverstein findings are based on analysis of original structural drawings, thousands of photos and dozens of videos. The team used computer modeling, including a program called FLEX developed by Weidlinger for the Dept. of Defense, and fire evaluation techniques to simulate the condition of each tower at critical times, creating impact and collapse sequences.
http://construction.com/NewsCenter/Headlin...R/20021104d.asp
Abstract: Mechanical simulation and parameter discussion for the collapse of WTC (World Trade Center) after aeroplane impact are presented in this paper with the dynamic FEA software of LS-DYNA. The simulation results are very close to the real situation, which means that such type of special damage process can be recurred on the computer with proper parameter and numerical model. The results show that the direct reason for the collapse is the softening of steel under fire and the chain reaction damage of floors under the impact load of upper floors. If improve the fire resistance and the ductility of the structure, the collapse may can be avoided.
1. Introduction
The two towers of world trade center in New York were impact by two aeroplanes on Sep. 11 of 2001. The two towers were collapsed completely and more than 3 thousand people died in this affair. This affair obtained everyone¡¯s focus and many explanations are put forward for the reason of this collapse, including fire damage, heaped load, second-damage and so on. Because the collapse of the towers is very complex and it is difficult to recur by test, most explanations are based on qualitative analysis. However, the computer technology applied us a chance to simulate the collapse in the computer, so that the reason for the collapse can be discussed, as well as the methods can be raised to avoid this disaster.
2. Numerical model
This simulation is based on the dynamic FEA software of LS-DYNA, which is developed by the Software Company of Livemore.
The WTC is topical tube-in-tube structure system, whose outer tube is dense-columns-deep-beams system. The width of the column is 476.25mm while the space between columns is just 558.8mm. The thickness of beams is 1219.2mm. In order to simplify the numerical model and decrease the degree of freedom, the outer dense-columns-deep-beams tube system and inner steel truss tube system are approached with shell elements. The thickness of shell elements is established with equivalent section method. Such approximate tube has the same stiffness of global bending and axial deformation as the real structure, while the local bending stiffness of structure elements is not consisted with the real condition. Since the primary deformation of tube-in-tube structure system is global bending and axial compression deformation, this approximate method should be feasible.
The material of inner and outer tube is set to be steel in the numerical model, with the constitutive relationship of Material 3, Plastic Kinematic model in LS-DYNA. The density of steel is 7800Kg/m3. The Yang¡¯s modulus is 200GPa. The Poisson ratio is 0.27. The yield strength is set to be 310MPa, according to Steel A440 in U.S. The hardening modulus is set to be 2GPa, 1% of initial modulus. As the fracture of steel is considered in this analysis, the failure plastic deformation is discussed as parameters, whose value is set as 0.5%, 1% and 5% respectively
The material of floor is set to be RC material, with the constitutive relationship of Material 3, Plastic Kinematic model, too. The density is 2500Kg/m3. The Yang¡¯s modulus is 30GPa. The Poisson ration is 0.2. The yield strength is 30MPa. The hardening modulus is 0. All the fracture plastic deformation is set to be the maximum compression strain of concrete, whose value is 0.38%.
Because of the weak fire resistance capacity of steel, the high temperature caused by the burning of aeroplane oil will soften the steel. So the material of steel under fire is needed to be setup, whose other parameter is the same to normal steel except that the Yang¡¯s modulus and strength is set as 1/20 of normal ones, to approach the performance of steel at 700¡æ.
As the collapse analysis is very complex, the Single Face Erosion contact module of LS-DYNA is used in this case. This contact model can search the contact face automatically to establish the contact relationship, and those complex border conditions such as penetration, erosion can be considered, too. The friction factor of material is set to be 0.25.
Since the LS-DYNA is explicit dynamic software, when applying the gravity load, the structure will vibrate for a short time. It is not consisted with the real conditions. So the whole computation should be divided into two stages. In the first stage, the towers have not been impacted. The gravity load is applied to the model and relatively large damp ratio is applied to the towers, whose value is 10%. Computing the model until the vertical vibration disappeared. Then, the second computation stage starts. In the second stage, some elements in the tower are ¡°killed¡± to approach the hole of airplane impact, and the material property of some survival elements is modified to simulate the fire influence, too.
4 Conclusions
The following conclusions are obtained from the simulation.
1) The reasons for the entire collapse of the towers are the structure elements¡¯ soften of fire and impact of the upper layers¡¯ collapse. From the numerical results, the towers does not collapse immediately after the impact. The north tower can go on standing. Likely, the south one dose not collapse, too, though there are some large deformations in it, which are caused by the asymmetric damage. This is consisted with the real situations.
2) Improving the structure fire resistance ability or control the fire influence area will avoid or delay the structure collapse, efficiently. We simulate the fire influence by adjusting the material property of elements. From the numerical results, even though the structure has been damaged seriously by the impact, if the influence area is smaller than 20%~25% of the survival section in the tower, the collapse still can be avoided. When more than 30~50% of the survival section near the impact zone fails, the collapse will start.
3) When the towers go into the collapse stage, the reason for the chain failure of un-impact layers is the impulse of upper collapsing floors. The impact force of upper floors is much larger than the heap load. And because there are a lot of bump and eject on the contact surface of collapsing floors and lower floors, the fragment of structure falls consecutively so that there is no chance to form a lot of heap load. So the heap load is not the critical reason for the collapse.
4) Improving the ductility of structure elements is an efficient way to avoid the chain collapse happens. In the simulation above, if the fracture plastic strain of steel structure is 0.5%, the chain collapse will take place entirely. However, if the fracture strain is improved to 1%, the impact energy of upper floors will be absorbed by the lower structures and the chain collapse will be stopped at about 100m under the airplane impact zone. When the fracture strain is improved to 5%, only part of the structure near the airplane impacting zone will be damaged, and no chain collapse will take place. Hence, if the structure has enough ductility to absorb the energy of upper floors¡¯ collapse, the chain damage will be controlled. Even though consider the influence of heap load, the towers still have much larger chance to escape from the entire collapse.
http://www.luxinzheng.net/publications/english_WTC.htm
That's TWO computer models done outside NIST (Plus the NIST final report which says there was one done by NIST [first image above]) which say it CAN happen. Wheres yours saying it can't?
Large font for the hand waving impaired.
Rove, why do you continue to lie? I have shown you this over and over...
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 6 2006, 04:06 PM)
There are other flammable in the aircraft, such as hydraulic fluid and pressurized oxygen containers. Someone would have to look at a whole list of what's inside a 767. It's a unique event to have a jumbo jet inside an office building.
Magnesium alloys can melt around 550C or lower depending on the alloying. Something like melted magnesium wheels in the building in the presence of oxygen can burn fiercely. If you had a situation like oxygen leaking from canisters and molten aluminum or magnesium alloy, that could produce a very hot fire. Most of the plane probably ended up in the northeast corner of the south tower. Only one landing gear assembly came out of the building, so the others must have still been inside.
The chemical oxygen generators (1 per seat are also highly EXOTHERMIC, though I'm not sure if thats still true AFTER the crash)
The nose gear went through, leaving TWO landing gear assemblies (8 wheels & hubs) inside.
Arthur
Magnesium alloys can melt around 550C or lower depending on the alloying. Something like melted magnesium wheels in the building in the presence of oxygen can burn fiercely. If you had a situation like oxygen leaking from canisters and molten aluminum or magnesium alloy, that could produce a very hot fire. Most of the plane probably ended up in the northeast corner of the south tower. Only one landing gear assembly came out of the building, so the others must have still been inside.
The chemical oxygen generators (1 per seat are also highly EXOTHERMIC, though I'm not sure if thats still true AFTER the crash)
The nose gear went through, leaving TWO landing gear assemblies (8 wheels & hubs) inside.
Arthur
QUOTE (Rove's shill+Mar 6 2006, 08:17 PM)
James X asks a simple question, why are you not able to answer it? The computer models you speak of would be of great help if they exist. Please enlighten us all CS, Arthur, it shouldn't be this hard to convince us of the truths you speak of.

Not to mention this comes from a lying CT site. But then what CT site isn't.

Not to mention this comes from a lying CT site. But then what CT site isn't.
QUOTE (Schneezgettingalittleexcited+Mar 6 2006, 08:35 PM)
Rove, why do you continue to lie? I have shown you this over and over...
Don't have a heart attack, buddy.
QUOTE (adouchebag+Mar 6 2006, 08:32 PM)
QUOTE (Rove's shill+Mar 6 2006, 04:17 PM)
James X asks a simple question, why are you not able to answer it? The computer models you speak of would be of great help if they exist. Please enlighten us all CS, Arthur, it shouldn't be this hard to convince us of the truths you speak of.
Luckily for us, they explained it all in the NIST report.
Arthur
No, they didn't.
Luckily for us, they explained it all in the NIST report.
Arthur
No, they didn't.
QUOTE (JamesX+Mar 6 2006, 04:51 PM)
QUOTE (adouchebag+Mar 6 2006, 08:32 PM)
QUOTE (Rove's shill+Mar 6 2006, 04:17 PM)
James X asks a simple question, why are you not able to answer it? The computer models you speak of would be of great help if they exist. Please enlighten us all CS, Arthur, it shouldn't be this hard to convince us of the truths you speak of.
Luckily for us, they explained it all in the NIST report.
Arthur
No, they didn't.
Yes they did
Arthur
Luckily for us, they explained it all in the NIST report.
Arthur
No, they didn't.
Yes they did
Arthur
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 6 2006, 04:42 PM)
Not to mention this comes from a lying CT site. But then what CT site isn't.
Not to mention Rove's Shill has posted these issues and they were dealt with, but he's still posting them, though now he KNOWS they are lies.
Like the First bullet of the first slide.
"Actual fire tests with models didn't collapse."
They were models OF THE FLOOR TRUSSES. The Trusses were AS BUILT, i.e. they had the INSULATION INTACT. The term COLLAPSE is inappropriately used as a single truss can't actually "collapse". The TEST was done to see the impact of heating on the truss in order to calibrate the fire model. While they didn't FAIL, they DID sag almost 6 feet in the middle!
Arthur
Not to mention Rove's Shill has posted these issues and they were dealt with, but he's still posting them, though now he KNOWS they are lies.
Like the First bullet of the first slide.
"Actual fire tests with models didn't collapse."
They were models OF THE FLOOR TRUSSES. The Trusses were AS BUILT, i.e. they had the INSULATION INTACT. The term COLLAPSE is inappropriately used as a single truss can't actually "collapse". The TEST was done to see the impact of heating on the truss in order to calibrate the fire model. While they didn't FAIL, they DID sag almost 6 feet in the middle!
Arthur
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 6 2006, 08:41 PM)
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 6 2006, 04:06 PM)
There are other flammable in the aircraft, such as hydraulic fluid and pressurized oxygen containers. Someone would have to look at a whole list of what's inside a 767. It's a unique event to have a jumbo jet inside an office building.
Magnesium alloys can melt around 550C or lower depending on the alloying. Something like melted magnesium wheels in the building in the presence of oxygen can burn fiercely. If you had a situation like oxygen leaking from canisters and molten aluminum or magnesium alloy, that could produce a very hot fire. Most of the plane probably ended up in the northeast corner of the south tower. Only one landing gear assembly came out of the building, so the others must have still been inside.
The chemical oxygen generators (1 per seat are also EXOTHERMIC)
The nose gear went through, leaving TWO landing gear assemblies (8 wheels & hubs) inside.
Arthur
On the 81st floor, north east corner of the north fact you can see what looks like a bad fire. If you look at the steel columns you can see they are bowed outward as if something hit it. Later, in this same spot, it looks like that corner of the 81st floor fell to the 80th. At that point you can just about make out something roundish, maybe oval like. If I had to guess I'd say it was the accordioned aircraft which caused the bow in the column and fell a story to the 80th.
http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-5A_chap_9-AppxC.pdf
In figure 9-72 you can see an intense fire on the 81st floor with the anomaly dripping down from the 80th floor ceiling.
In figure 9-79 you can see the more intense fire is on the 80th floor. Here you see something rather large which looks like the steel caught. Indeed, the steel from the 80, 81 and 82nd floors looks like fingers on a catchers glove.
Is this what's left of the airliner and is the anomaly from it?
Magnesium alloys can melt around 550C or lower depending on the alloying. Something like melted magnesium wheels in the building in the presence of oxygen can burn fiercely. If you had a situation like oxygen leaking from canisters and molten aluminum or magnesium alloy, that could produce a very hot fire. Most of the plane probably ended up in the northeast corner of the south tower. Only one landing gear assembly came out of the building, so the others must have still been inside.
The chemical oxygen generators (1 per seat are also EXOTHERMIC)
The nose gear went through, leaving TWO landing gear assemblies (8 wheels & hubs) inside.
Arthur
On the 81st floor, north east corner of the north fact you can see what looks like a bad fire. If you look at the steel columns you can see they are bowed outward as if something hit it. Later, in this same spot, it looks like that corner of the 81st floor fell to the 80th. At that point you can just about make out something roundish, maybe oval like. If I had to guess I'd say it was the accordioned aircraft which caused the bow in the column and fell a story to the 80th.
http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-5A_chap_9-AppxC.pdf
In figure 9-72 you can see an intense fire on the 81st floor with the anomaly dripping down from the 80th floor ceiling.
In figure 9-79 you can see the more intense fire is on the 80th floor. Here you see something rather large which looks like the steel caught. Indeed, the steel from the 80, 81 and 82nd floors looks like fingers on a catchers glove.
Is this what's left of the airliner and is the anomaly from it?
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 6 2006, 01:09 PM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 6 2006, 04:42 PM)
Not to mention this comes from a lying CT site. But then what CT site isn't.
Not to mention Rove's Shill has posted these issues and they were dealt with, but he's still posting them, though now he KNOWS they are lies.
Like the First bullet of the first slide.
"Actual fire tests with models didn't collapse."
They were models OF THE FLOOR TRUSSES. The Trusses were AS BUILT, i.e. they had the INSULATION INTACT. The term COLLAPSE is inappropriately used as a single truss can't actually "collapse". The TEST was done to see the impact of heating on the truss in order to calibrate the fire model. While they didn't FAIL, they DID sag almost 6 feet in the middle!
Arthur
Arty, is this one of your infamous half truths/ half lies? I will check when I have more time however I recall several test without insulation.
Rove, why do you continue to lie? I have shown you this over and over...
Don't have a heart attack, buddy.
That's not excitment. If I was excited I'd use caps. However, I thought he might be as blind as you.
Not to mention Rove's Shill has posted these issues and they were dealt with, but he's still posting them, though now he KNOWS they are lies.
Like the First bullet of the first slide.
"Actual fire tests with models didn't collapse."
They were models OF THE FLOOR TRUSSES. The Trusses were AS BUILT, i.e. they had the INSULATION INTACT. The term COLLAPSE is inappropriately used as a single truss can't actually "collapse". The TEST was done to see the impact of heating on the truss in order to calibrate the fire model. While they didn't FAIL, they DID sag almost 6 feet in the middle!
Arthur
Arty, is this one of your infamous half truths/ half lies? I will check when I have more time however I recall several test without insulation.
QUOTE (JamesX+Mar 6 2006, 08:45 PM)
QUOTE (Schneezgettingalittleexcited+Mar 6 2006, 08:35 PM)
Rove, why do you continue to lie? I have shown you this over and over...
Don't have a heart attack, buddy.
That's not excitment. If I was excited I'd use caps. However, I thought he might be as blind as you.
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 6 2006, 09:09 PM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 6 2006, 04:42 PM)
Not to mention this comes from a lying CT site. But then what CT site isn't.
Not to mention Rove's Shill has posted these issues and they were dealt with, but he's still posting them, though now he KNOWS they are lies.
Like the First bullet of the first slide.
"Actual fire tests with models didn't collapse."
They were models OF THE FLOOR TRUSSES. The Trusses were AS BUILT, i.e. they had the INSULATION INTACT. The term COLLAPSE is inappropriately used as a single truss can't actually "collapse". The TEST was done to see the impact of heating on the truss in order to calibrate the fire model. While they didn't FAIL, they DID sag almost 6 feet in the middle!
Arthur
Yeah, and wheres the crys of "Stop spamming" from the thread police? The hypocracy is so thick you can cut it with a butter knife.
Not to mention Rove's Shill has posted these issues and they were dealt with, but he's still posting them, though now he KNOWS they are lies.
Like the First bullet of the first slide.
"Actual fire tests with models didn't collapse."
They were models OF THE FLOOR TRUSSES. The Trusses were AS BUILT, i.e. they had the INSULATION INTACT. The term COLLAPSE is inappropriately used as a single truss can't actually "collapse". The TEST was done to see the impact of heating on the truss in order to calibrate the fire model. While they didn't FAIL, they DID sag almost 6 feet in the middle!
Arthur
Yeah, and wheres the crys of "Stop spamming" from the thread police? The hypocracy is so thick you can cut it with a butter knife.
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 6 2006, 05:31 PM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 6 2006, 01:09 PM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 6 2006, 04:42 PM)
Not to mention this comes from a lying CT site. But then what CT site isn't.
Not to mention Rove's Shill has posted these issues and they were dealt with, but he's still posting them, though now he KNOWS they are lies.
Like the First bullet of the first slide.
"Actual fire tests with models didn't collapse."
They were models OF THE FLOOR TRUSSES. The Trusses were AS BUILT, i.e. they had the INSULATION INTACT. The term COLLAPSE is inappropriately used as a single truss can't actually "collapse". The TEST was done to see the impact of heating on the truss in order to calibrate the fire model. While they didn't FAIL, they DID sag almost 6 feet in the middle!
Arthur
Arty, is this one of your infamous half truths/ half lies? I will check when I have more time however I recall several test without insulation.
RW,
I suppose its possible, there are a LOT of NIST documents, but I don't recall any done on Trusses without insulation. The one that is in the main report is of Trusses with insulation. You might be confusing it with the tests they did on uninsulated steel to find out how fast the steel temps rose, but the 4 UL tests were all done on insulated trusses and these are the only fire models I'm aware of that you could refer to as in that first bullet.
But, regardless, what is MORE important is the CONTEXT.
NIST doesn't claim that the trusses either failed or collapsed, yet the statement is made to supposedly REFUTE NIST's findings.
Since this was NOT their claim, then the statement is totally misleading.
Arthur
Not to mention Rove's Shill has posted these issues and they were dealt with, but he's still posting them, though now he KNOWS they are lies.
Like the First bullet of the first slide.
"Actual fire tests with models didn't collapse."
They were models OF THE FLOOR TRUSSES. The Trusses were AS BUILT, i.e. they had the INSULATION INTACT. The term COLLAPSE is inappropriately used as a single truss can't actually "collapse". The TEST was done to see the impact of heating on the truss in order to calibrate the fire model. While they didn't FAIL, they DID sag almost 6 feet in the middle!
Arthur
Arty, is this one of your infamous half truths/ half lies? I will check when I have more time however I recall several test without insulation.
RW,
I suppose its possible, there are a LOT of NIST documents, but I don't recall any done on Trusses without insulation. The one that is in the main report is of Trusses with insulation. You might be confusing it with the tests they did on uninsulated steel to find out how fast the steel temps rose, but the 4 UL tests were all done on insulated trusses and these are the only fire models I'm aware of that you could refer to as in that first bullet.
But, regardless, what is MORE important is the CONTEXT.
NIST doesn't claim that the trusses either failed or collapsed, yet the statement is made to supposedly REFUTE NIST's findings.
Since this was NOT their claim, then the statement is totally misleading.
Arthur
Let's pretend the ArsoNIST's do explain everything. (I know they don't, but just for the sake of this discussion.) Could you put it into brief, simple language that even a MORON could understand? Or is your foilhat fantasy really that fu<king mystical, Arty?
How does this:

turn into this:


What's causing that huge explosion, Arty?
How does this:

turn into this:


What's causing that huge explosion, Arty?
QUOTE (JamesX+Mar 6 2006, 05:45 PM)
Let's pretend the ArsoNIST's do explain everything. (I know they don't, but just for the sake of this discussion.) Could you put it into brief, simple language that even a MORON could understand? Or is your foilhat fantasy really that fu<king mystical, Arty?
...
What's causing that huge explosion, Arty?
When the towers were built the steel and concrete were hoisted up, much of it over 1,000 feet.
It took ENERGY to hoist the material up against the force of gravity.
In doing so the material gained potential energy.
As an EXAMPLE, say you took a 20lb piece of concrete and you placed it upon a car next to the WTC.
Assuming you did this carefully you wouldn't even scratch the paint.
Now take an identical piece of concrete and ride the elevator up to the observation deck. This is analogus to the concrete being poured on a top floor. In this case the elevator has imparted POTENTIAL energy to the piece of concrete.
Now walk over to the side of the WTC and drop the concrete onto the car parked below.
It will do a LOT more than scratch the paint.
It will TOTAL the CAR.
Why do you think that something as MASSIVE as the top of the WTC falling onto the fixed LOWER portion WOULD NOT look like an EXPLOSION.
An EXPLOSION is the sudden release of stored energy.
The collapse of the WTC was the sudden release of stored energy.
Simple enough?
Arthur
...
What's causing that huge explosion, Arty?
When the towers were built the steel and concrete were hoisted up, much of it over 1,000 feet.
It took ENERGY to hoist the material up against the force of gravity.
In doing so the material gained potential energy.
As an EXAMPLE, say you took a 20lb piece of concrete and you placed it upon a car next to the WTC.
Assuming you did this carefully you wouldn't even scratch the paint.
Now take an identical piece of concrete and ride the elevator up to the observation deck. This is analogus to the concrete being poured on a top floor. In this case the elevator has imparted POTENTIAL energy to the piece of concrete.
Now walk over to the side of the WTC and drop the concrete onto the car parked below.
It will do a LOT more than scratch the paint.
It will TOTAL the CAR.
Why do you think that something as MASSIVE as the top of the WTC falling onto the fixed LOWER portion WOULD NOT look like an EXPLOSION.
An EXPLOSION is the sudden release of stored energy.
The collapse of the WTC was the sudden release of stored energy.
Simple enough?
Arthur
.
ooops...double post removed.
ooops...double post removed.
Nist Appendixj page 6 line 4
Tests were done on bare steel and insulation of two thicknesses.
Gordon.
Tests were done on bare steel and insulation of two thicknesses.
Gordon.
.
Hi all!
One question for the 'Controlled Demolition' CTers:
Why would the 'Controlled Demolition' perpetrators FIRST demolish the tower which was hit SECOND....shouldn't anyone trying to avoid suspicion first demolish the tower that was hit FIRST?
RC.
.
Hi all!
One question for the 'Controlled Demolition' CTers:
Why would the 'Controlled Demolition' perpetrators FIRST demolish the tower which was hit SECOND....shouldn't anyone trying to avoid suspicion first demolish the tower that was hit FIRST?
RC.
.
QUOTE (gordon+Mar 6 2006, 06:17 PM)
Nist Appendixj page 6 line 4
Tests were done on bare steel and insulation of two thicknesses.
Gordon.
Yes Gordon, but those were not the FIRE MODEL tests "that didn't fail"
Chap 6 - pg 142.
Arthur
Tests were done on bare steel and insulation of two thicknesses.
Gordon.
Yes Gordon, but those were not the FIRE MODEL tests "that didn't fail"
Chap 6 - pg 142.
Arthur
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 6 2006, 10:15 PM)
QUOTE (JamesX+Mar 6 2006, 05:45 PM)
Let's pretend the ArsoNIST's do explain everything. (I know they don't, but just for the sake of this discussion.) Could you put it into brief, simple language that even a MORON could understand? Or is your foilhat fantasy really that fu<king mystical, Arty?
...
What's causing that huge explosion, Arty?
When the towers were built the steel and concrete were hoisted up, much of it over 1,000 feet.
It took ENERGY to hoist the material up against the force of gravity.
In doing so the material gained potential energy.
As an EXAMPLE, say you took a 20lb piece of concrete and you placed it upon a car next to the WTC.
Assuming you did this carefully you wouldn't even scratch the paint.
Now take an identical piece of concrete and ride the elevator up to the observation deck. This is analogus to the concrete being poured on a top floor. In this case the elevator has imparted POTENTIAL energy to the piece of concrete.
Now walk over to the side of the WTC and drop the concrete onto the car parked below.
It will do a LOT more than scratch the paint.
It will TOTAL the CAR.
Why do you think that something as MASSIVE as the top of the WTC falling onto the fixed LOWER portion WOULD NOT look like an EXPLOSION.
An EXPLOSION is the sudden release of stored energy.
The collapse of the WTC was the sudden release of stored energy.
Simple enough?
Arthur
Thanks, Art, that's better than nothing I guess but I don't see a 'collapse' accounting for this kind of explosion

especially considering it happened twice in one day to two buildings that were compromised in different ways. Maybe if it only happened to one building (and even then only if it were much more compromised), then maybe I could believe it. But TWO of them?
Oh, wait... three of them... (I know, I know, WTC 7 was a normal, implosion-style CD, different story)
But thanks, anyway.

Note: Edited for enhancement
Hitler's ghost speaks
Guten Tag,
Mine English ist nict sehr gut. Ich werde... try mine best. It goes in und aus.
As I roam my unterground bunker, Ich haben eine feeling, for much time, an energy coming aus die States. Er bildet für mich ein Gefühl von wunderbar. Ah!, I mean... it makes me feel gut inside, like when I was still der führer, of my beloved Duetschland.
Letzte Sachen zuerst...ya, to the more recent events. Da vay you dealt mit your Negro's, in New Orleans, vas both unusual und brilliant. Ich würde in Flugzeug meines Stukas gesendet haben und der levis bombardiert....I mean, would have sent in my Stuka dive bombers and destroyed the levees. Ich haben nicht die patience of you Amerikaner, to wait for a big storm, to do it. But as you say, you haben eine grosse storm zone center, their. Zo you leave the levees weak, not like the Dutch who make them sehr strong, und der wasser kam over. Wunderbar! Dann, herr bush, strumin die guitar und Golf spielend, while they were drowning in das filthy wasser, ya!, sehr gut!
Ich nicht verstanden...uhm... I understand not, the workings of your era? How do you get them --as you say--to just, roll over? Ich hat to crush them, day und night, mit meinem secret police und send them to das koncentration kamps. Now it's zo easy. How do you say?- like lobsters in a pot of cold wasser, on der stove. They think all is fine, until it ist too late. Ya?
Ich möchte mit sprechen..ah, I would like to speak, of the one called arthur. Many like him, were in the ranks von meinem Third Reich. Even when, Das Wehrmacht was sent into Russia, in the fall, he was silent. Others were concerned, but not him. He accepted my strategy as "Official" und thus correct und proper. He secretly informed on the others, who could not believe, that I would send Duetchland's finest, junge Männer, to their certain death, knowing, as they struggled, zo hard, to get their mechanized units out of the deep mud, that the frigid winter would kam quickly und freeze over them.
I see, that he has formed his own gruppe des braunen shirts, around him. It's best, when they are very unstable like the schizophrenic schneibster und like the way realitycheck ist becoming. Wir habben nicht Baseball in Duetchland, so no bats. Ya, but wir haten grosse stichts und pipes. I can remember, breaking down the door, of a free thinker's society. Juden und nicht Juden, alike. It was so funny, all they hat to defend themselves was ihre Bücher und Papiere . Wir hat one like your RC, who loved to lassen Sie ihre Köpfe explodieren.... make their heads explode . He lived out of town, down under, in der valley. He used to complain about his health und we would call him on his- how do you say-old, crappy telephone. But when we went out, he liked so much, to decorate the walls und ceilings, mit ihre blood und brain matter, that I kidded him, that he was becoming like the modern artists, who I hated so much. Then the friends und family would come, eventually, looking for them. The one who was like RC und was zo proud of his handy work; would sit in der kaffe, across die strasse, to watch their reaction. Arthur, is so lucky to have him.
Ya! Und jetzt zum... der most important. I see, that you have had your Reichstag episode und it was spectacular. Wagner would have written, the most astounding opera for it. Be careful of those who say, the Arabs didn't do it. I had those to, mit der twisted logic of looking to der Nazi's, instead of the communist's, just because we benefited entirely, from it. You must get them into discussion groups, were they think they are safe, to say what they think. Then, when you create the next event, they are so easy to round up, making whatever your final solution will be, easier. Perhaps you send out RC, no? ya!!
Ich hatte meine undesirables und so do you. May I suggest, that you rebuild your lost city, by raising it above the level of the sea. The bodies of those who see things not like you, will provide much, in the way of land fill, ya? Then you can re-establish it, with the right kind, who understand that it can be, no other way.
Ich bin von Ihnen Amerikaner, envious. You kam here und make a final solution for the Indians, drive out the Mexicans und make the Negro's your slaves. You carved out your homeland, in die New World, in such a way, that the führer, could be only, impressed. Ya, but denn you succumbed, to the soft thinking that kam aus das age of enlightenment und denn, as they say, you tied your hands behind you back. Strong minds, must not be allowed to flourish und must be kept on a leash, like a dog. From what I can see, around here, no leashes will be needed. Sehr gut! Gehen Sie zurück von, woher Sie kommen...Ya, grab on to your homeland, the way you did when you first kam here but do not...shackle?, ya, oneself mit those messy due processes! Save die shackles for die Negro's, ya?
Amerika ist kommender voller Kreis...ya, it goes round und round. Sie reisten durch die New World und jetzt sind Sie aus der anderen Seite in den New World Order gekommen. You are like the Viking sea monster that consumed itself, as it circled the earth. Ya, Thor knew that where the beast started was also where it ended und vice-versa. So to, The New World und The World Order is on the same continuum und therefore, it is part of the same monster.
I must return to the bunker now, where I am to remain, for eternity. I am so, very, overwhelmed
by the events here, so far. I will be with you in spirit, when you--as your generation says--drops the hammer or some such thing, as you claim your rightful homeland.
Gut vom Glück
Aufwiedersehen
...
What's causing that huge explosion, Arty?
When the towers were built the steel and concrete were hoisted up, much of it over 1,000 feet.
It took ENERGY to hoist the material up against the force of gravity.
In doing so the material gained potential energy.
As an EXAMPLE, say you took a 20lb piece of concrete and you placed it upon a car next to the WTC.
Assuming you did this carefully you wouldn't even scratch the paint.
Now take an identical piece of concrete and ride the elevator up to the observation deck. This is analogus to the concrete being poured on a top floor. In this case the elevator has imparted POTENTIAL energy to the piece of concrete.
Now walk over to the side of the WTC and drop the concrete onto the car parked below.
It will do a LOT more than scratch the paint.
It will TOTAL the CAR.
Why do you think that something as MASSIVE as the top of the WTC falling onto the fixed LOWER portion WOULD NOT look like an EXPLOSION.
An EXPLOSION is the sudden release of stored energy.
The collapse of the WTC was the sudden release of stored energy.
Simple enough?
Arthur
Thanks, Art, that's better than nothing I guess but I don't see a 'collapse' accounting for this kind of explosion

especially considering it happened twice in one day to two buildings that were compromised in different ways. Maybe if it only happened to one building (and even then only if it were much more compromised), then maybe I could believe it. But TWO of them?
Oh, wait... three of them... (I know, I know, WTC 7 was a normal, implosion-style CD, different story)
But thanks, anyway.
QUOTE (hereward+Mar 6 2006, 10:43 AM)
THOUGHT EXPERIMENT
Imagine a solid block of granite as tall as the World Trade Center.
Now cut off the top 1/3 of that granite block, and embed enough steel columns into the underside of the block to redundantly support the weight of this block.
Gently put the block back on top of the stump, making sure to embed the columns into deep cavities which have been conveniently cut into the stump. Set with concrete.
In terms of our experiment, imagine that a 1 story height of steel columns remains exposed between stump and top block.
Now, heat up a few columns on one side of the composite block. Keep applying heat until you see downward movement in the top block.
Now stand back.
What happens next?
Imagine a solid block of granite as tall as the World Trade Center.
Now cut off the top 1/3 of that granite block, and embed enough steel columns into the underside of the block to redundantly support the weight of this block.
Gently put the block back on top of the stump, making sure to embed the columns into deep cavities which have been conveniently cut into the stump. Set with concrete.
In terms of our experiment, imagine that a 1 story height of steel columns remains exposed between stump and top block.
Now, heat up a few columns on one side of the composite block. Keep applying heat until you see downward movement in the top block.
Now stand back.
What happens next?
QUOTE (cosmo+Mar 5 2006, 09:23 PM)

Note: Edited for enhancement
Hitler's ghost speaks
Guten Tag,
Mine English ist nict sehr gut. Ich werde... try mine best. It goes in und aus.
As I roam my unterground bunker, Ich haben eine feeling, for much time, an energy coming aus die States. Er bildet für mich ein Gefühl von wunderbar. Ah!, I mean... it makes me feel gut inside, like when I was still der führer, of my beloved Duetschland.
Letzte Sachen zuerst...ya, to the more recent events. Da vay you dealt mit your Negro's, in New Orleans, vas both unusual und brilliant. Ich würde in Flugzeug meines Stukas gesendet haben und der levis bombardiert....I mean, would have sent in my Stuka dive bombers and destroyed the levees. Ich haben nicht die patience of you Amerikaner, to wait for a big storm, to do it. But as you say, you haben eine grosse storm zone center, their. Zo you leave the levees weak, not like the Dutch who make them sehr strong, und der wasser kam over. Wunderbar! Dann, herr bush, strumin die guitar und Golf spielend, while they were drowning in das filthy wasser, ya!, sehr gut!
Ich nicht verstanden...uhm... I understand not, the workings of your era? How do you get them --as you say--to just, roll over? Ich hat to crush them, day und night, mit meinem secret police und send them to das koncentration kamps. Now it's zo easy. How do you say?- like lobsters in a pot of cold wasser, on der stove. They think all is fine, until it ist too late. Ya?
Ich möchte mit sprechen..ah, I would like to speak, of the one called arthur. Many like him, were in the ranks von meinem Third Reich. Even when, Das Wehrmacht was sent into Russia, in the fall, he was silent. Others were concerned, but not him. He accepted my strategy as "Official" und thus correct und proper. He secretly informed on the others, who could not believe, that I would send Duetchland's finest, junge Männer, to their certain death, knowing, as they struggled, zo hard, to get their mechanized units out of the deep mud, that the frigid winter would kam quickly und freeze over them.
I see, that he has formed his own gruppe des braunen shirts, around him. It's best, when they are very unstable like the schizophrenic schneibster und like the way realitycheck ist becoming. Wir habben nicht Baseball in Duetchland, so no bats. Ya, but wir haten grosse stichts und pipes. I can remember, breaking down the door, of a free thinker's society. Juden und nicht Juden, alike. It was so funny, all they hat to defend themselves was ihre Bücher und Papiere . Wir hat one like your RC, who loved to lassen Sie ihre Köpfe explodieren.... make their heads explode . He lived out of town, down under, in der valley. He used to complain about his health und we would call him on his- how do you say-old, crappy telephone. But when we went out, he liked so much, to decorate the walls und ceilings, mit ihre blood und brain matter, that I kidded him, that he was becoming like the modern artists, who I hated so much. Then the friends und family would come, eventually, looking for them. The one who was like RC und was zo proud of his handy work; would sit in der kaffe, across die strasse, to watch their reaction. Arthur, is so lucky to have him.
Ya! Und jetzt zum... der most important. I see, that you have had your Reichstag episode und it was spectacular. Wagner would have written, the most astounding opera for it. Be careful of those who say, the Arabs didn't do it. I had those to, mit der twisted logic of looking to der Nazi's, instead of the communist's, just because we benefited entirely, from it. You must get them into discussion groups, were they think they are safe, to say what they think. Then, when you create the next event, they are so easy to round up, making whatever your final solution will be, easier. Perhaps you send out RC, no? ya!!
Ich hatte meine undesirables und so do you. May I suggest, that you rebuild your lost city, by raising it above the level of the sea. The bodies of those who see things not like you, will provide much, in the way of land fill, ya? Then you can re-establish it, with the right kind, who understand that it can be, no other way.
Ich bin von Ihnen Amerikaner, envious. You kam here und make a final solution for the Indians, drive out the Mexicans und make the Negro's your slaves. You carved out your homeland, in die New World, in such a way, that the führer, could be only, impressed. Ya, but denn you succumbed, to the soft thinking that kam aus das age of enlightenment und denn, as they say, you tied your hands behind you back. Strong minds, must not be allowed to flourish und must be kept on a leash, like a dog. From what I can see, around here, no leashes will be needed. Sehr gut! Gehen Sie zurück von, woher Sie kommen...Ya, grab on to your homeland, the way you did when you first kam here but do not...shackle?, ya, oneself mit those messy due processes! Save die shackles for die Negro's, ya?
Amerika ist kommender voller Kreis...ya, it goes round und round. Sie reisten durch die New World und jetzt sind Sie aus der anderen Seite in den New World Order gekommen. You are like the Viking sea monster that consumed itself, as it circled the earth. Ya, Thor knew that where the beast started was also where it ended und vice-versa. So to, The New World und The World Order is on the same continuum und therefore, it is part of the same monster.
I must return to the bunker now, where I am to remain, for eternity. I am so, very, overwhelmed
by the events here, so far. I will be with you in spirit, when you--as your generation says--drops the hammer or some such thing, as you claim your rightful homeland.
Gut vom Glück
Aufwiedersehen
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 6 2006, 10:21 PM)
.
Hi all!
One question for the 'Controlled Demolition' CTers:
Why would the 'Controlled Demolition' perpetrators FIRST demolish the tower which was hit SECOND....shouldn't anyone trying to avoid suspicion first demolish the tower that was hit FIRST?
RC.
.
Hi Zoktober! Since you're online too, would you like to have a go at answering my question (above)? Cheers!
PS: hereward? reasonwhy? Mel? Rove's? gordon? James? Cosmo? newton? Temp? Foxx? metamars? Andrew?....anyone? from the alleged-CD 'side'?
RC.
.
Hi all!
One question for the 'Controlled Demolition' CTers:
Why would the 'Controlled Demolition' perpetrators FIRST demolish the tower which was hit SECOND....shouldn't anyone trying to avoid suspicion first demolish the tower that was hit FIRST?
RC.
.
Hi Zoktober! Since you're online too, would you like to have a go at answering my question (above)? Cheers!
PS: hereward? reasonwhy? Mel? Rove's? gordon? James? Cosmo? newton? Temp? Foxx? metamars? Andrew?....anyone? from the alleged-CD 'side'?
RC.
.
QUOTE (JamesX+Mar 6 2006, 06:53 PM)
Thanks, Art, that's better than nothing I guess but I don't see a 'collapse' accounting for this kind of explosion
especially considering it happened twice in one day to two buildings that were compromised in different ways. Maybe if it only happened to one building (and even then only if it were much more compromised), then maybe I could believe it. But TWO of them?
Oh, wait... three of them... (I know, I know, WTC 7 was a normal, implosion-style CD, different story)
But thanks, anyway.
Do you think what happened to the two towers was THAT different?
They were nearly identical in construction.
They were BOTH run into by high speed commercial jets on the same day thus the same external conditions.
They were Both hit in the upper part of the towers but with a substantial number of floors above the impact and fire zone.
They Both burned out of control until they collapsed.
What about this would lead you to expect radically DIFFERENT outcomes?
When the top collapsed onto the intact bottom structure it was moving at a decent clip and had a weight ~200 MILLION pounds. It continued to accelerate as it tore the building apart.
WHAT about that WOULDN'T look EXPLOSIVE??
Arthur
especially considering it happened twice in one day to two buildings that were compromised in different ways. Maybe if it only happened to one building (and even then only if it were much more compromised), then maybe I could believe it. But TWO of them?
Oh, wait... three of them... (I know, I know, WTC 7 was a normal, implosion-style CD, different story)
But thanks, anyway.
Do you think what happened to the two towers was THAT different?
They were nearly identical in construction.
They were BOTH run into by high speed commercial jets on the same day thus the same external conditions.
They were Both hit in the upper part of the towers but with a substantial number of floors above the impact and fire zone.
They Both burned out of control until they collapsed.
What about this would lead you to expect radically DIFFERENT outcomes?
When the top collapsed onto the intact bottom structure it was moving at a decent clip and had a weight ~200 MILLION pounds. It continued to accelerate as it tore the building apart.
WHAT about that WOULDN'T look EXPLOSIVE??
Arthur
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 6 2006, 01:36 PM)
Part of the core.

This image seems to show a small part of the core. What happened to the rest.
Why do we see perimiter walls towering over this little stump?

This image seems to show a small part of the core. What happened to the rest.
Why do we see perimiter walls towering over this little stump?
.
Hi adoucette!
Does my question re order of collapse/demolition appear on your screen? I only ask because it appaers on my screen but no CTer is answering it? Do they see the question on their screen, do you think?....along with its implications for the so-called 'logic train' for their alleged-CD theories? Cheers!
RC.
.
Hi adoucette!
Does my question re order of collapse/demolition appear on your screen? I only ask because it appaers on my screen but no CTer is answering it? Do they see the question on their screen, do you think?....along with its implications for the so-called 'logic train' for their alleged-CD theories? Cheers!
RC.
.
QUOTE (hereward+Mar 6 2006, 11:38 PM)
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 6 2006, 01:36 PM)
Part of the core.

This image seems to show a small part of the core. What happened to the rest.
Why do we see perimiter walls towering over this little stump?
Hi hereward! How goes it, paisano?
About the core-column 'stub'.
Which ancient Greek? said: "Give me a LEVER arm long enough, and a strong enough FULCRUM to place it on, and I will move the WORLD."
Do you recall those videos of metamars' 'spire' and swaying columns? Do you recall that the core was NOT designed to stand NORMALLY, let alone with all its geometry/bracing stripped and weakened?
The 40+ story HEIGHT (length) of these 'stripped' columns (lever arms) would have 'FULCRUMed' on their lowest points (near-ground) levels when they swayed (levered) so as to place MAXIMUM CONCENTRATED ENERGY against the lowest-steel parts of those swaying columns....WHICH REPRESENTED HUMONGOUSLY LONG, AND THEREFORE POWERFUL LEVERS TO DESTROY/MOVE THE LOWER PORTIONS OF THEIR VERTICAL STRUCTURE.
And the perimeter wall remannts were NOT tall (they broke apart outwards during collapse, so NO POWERFULL 'long levers' would have formed there)...and besides, the remants still had plenty of 'corner/side' support from the 'angle/line' of remnant structure.
Reasonable, mate? Cheers!
RC.
.

This image seems to show a small part of the core. What happened to the rest.
Why do we see perimiter walls towering over this little stump?
Hi hereward! How goes it, paisano?
About the core-column 'stub'.
Which ancient Greek? said: "Give me a LEVER arm long enough, and a strong enough FULCRUM to place it on, and I will move the WORLD."
Do you recall those videos of metamars' 'spire' and swaying columns? Do you recall that the core was NOT designed to stand NORMALLY, let alone with all its geometry/bracing stripped and weakened?
The 40+ story HEIGHT (length) of these 'stripped' columns (lever arms) would have 'FULCRUMed' on their lowest points (near-ground) levels when they swayed (levered) so as to place MAXIMUM CONCENTRATED ENERGY against the lowest-steel parts of those swaying columns....WHICH REPRESENTED HUMONGOUSLY LONG, AND THEREFORE POWERFUL LEVERS TO DESTROY/MOVE THE LOWER PORTIONS OF THEIR VERTICAL STRUCTURE.
And the perimeter wall remannts were NOT tall (they broke apart outwards during collapse, so NO POWERFULL 'long levers' would have formed there)...and besides, the remants still had plenty of 'corner/side' support from the 'angle/line' of remnant structure.
Reasonable, mate? Cheers!
RC.
.
QUOTE (JamesX+Mar 6 2006, 10:53 PM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 6 2006, 10:15 PM)
QUOTE (JamesX+Mar 6 2006, 05:45 PM)
Let's pretend the ArsoNIST's do explain everything. (I know they don't, but just for the sake of this discussion.) Could you put it into brief, simple language that even a MORON could understand? Or is your foilhat fantasy really that fu<king mystical, Arty?
...
What's causing that huge explosion, Arty?
When the towers were built the steel and concrete were hoisted up, much of it over 1,000 feet.
It took ENERGY to hoist the material up against the force of gravity.
In doing so the material gained potential energy.
As an EXAMPLE, say you took a 20lb piece of concrete and you placed it upon a car next to the WTC.
Assuming you did this carefully you wouldn't even scratch the paint.
Now take an identical piece of concrete and ride the elevator up to the observation deck. This is analogus to the concrete being poured on a top floor. In this case the elevator has imparted POTENTIAL energy to the piece of concrete.
Now walk over to the side of the WTC and drop the concrete onto the car parked below.
It will do a LOT more than scratch the paint.
It will TOTAL the CAR.
Why do you think that something as MASSIVE as the top of the WTC falling onto the fixed LOWER portion WOULD NOT look like an EXPLOSION.
An EXPLOSION is the sudden release of stored energy.
The collapse of the WTC was the sudden release of stored energy.
Simple enough?
Arthur
Thanks, Art, that's better than nothing I guess but I don't see a 'collapse' accounting for this kind of explosion

especially considering it happened twice in one day to two buildings that were compromised in different ways. Maybe if it only happened to one building (and even then only if it were much more compromised), then maybe I could believe it. But TWO of them?
Oh, wait... three of them... (I know, I know, WTC 7 was a normal, implosion-style CD, different story)
But thanks, anyway.
Jamies reverse explosion. It goes off on top then the cloud gets bigger as it goes down...
Jamie bomb...
...
What's causing that huge explosion, Arty?
When the towers were built the steel and concrete were hoisted up, much of it over 1,000 feet.
It took ENERGY to hoist the material up against the force of gravity.
In doing so the material gained potential energy.
As an EXAMPLE, say you took a 20lb piece of concrete and you placed it upon a car next to the WTC.
Assuming you did this carefully you wouldn't even scratch the paint.
Now take an identical piece of concrete and ride the elevator up to the observation deck. This is analogus to the concrete being poured on a top floor. In this case the elevator has imparted POTENTIAL energy to the piece of concrete.
Now walk over to the side of the WTC and drop the concrete onto the car parked below.
It will do a LOT more than scratch the paint.
It will TOTAL the CAR.
Why do you think that something as MASSIVE as the top of the WTC falling onto the fixed LOWER portion WOULD NOT look like an EXPLOSION.
An EXPLOSION is the sudden release of stored energy.
The collapse of the WTC was the sudden release of stored energy.
Simple enough?
Arthur
Thanks, Art, that's better than nothing I guess but I don't see a 'collapse' accounting for this kind of explosion

especially considering it happened twice in one day to two buildings that were compromised in different ways. Maybe if it only happened to one building (and even then only if it were much more compromised), then maybe I could believe it. But TWO of them?
Oh, wait... three of them... (I know, I know, WTC 7 was a normal, implosion-style CD, different story)
But thanks, anyway.
Jamies reverse explosion. It goes off on top then the cloud gets bigger as it goes down...
Jamie bomb...
.
Does any Controlled Demolition theorist have an answer to my earlier question regarding the ORDER of "demolition"...that is, Why did the tower impacted SECOND get allegedly 'demolished' FIRST if they didn't want to arouse suspicion?
RC.
.
Does any Controlled Demolition theorist have an answer to my earlier question regarding the ORDER of "demolition"...that is, Why did the tower impacted SECOND get allegedly 'demolished' FIRST if they didn't want to arouse suspicion?
RC.
.
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 6 2006, 11:58 PM)
QUOTE (JamesX+Mar 6 2006, 10:53 PM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 6 2006, 10:15 PM)
QUOTE (JamesX+Mar 6 2006, 05:45 PM)
Let's pretend the ArsoNIST's do explain everything. (I know they don't, but just for the sake of this discussion.) Could you put it into brief, simple language that even a MORON could understand? Or is your foilhat fantasy really that fu<king mystical, Arty?
...
What's causing that huge explosion, Arty?
When the towers were built the steel and concrete were hoisted up, much of it over 1,000 feet.
It took ENERGY to hoist the material up against the force of gravity.
In doing so the material gained potential energy.
As an EXAMPLE, say you took a 20lb piece of concrete and you placed it upon a car next to the WTC.
Assuming you did this carefully you wouldn't even scratch the paint.
Now take an identical piece of concrete and ride the elevator up to the observation deck. This is analogus to the concrete being poured on a top floor. In this case the elevator has imparted POTENTIAL energy to the piece of concrete.
Now walk over to the side of the WTC and drop the concrete onto the car parked below.
It will do a LOT more than scratch the paint.
It will TOTAL the CAR.
Why do you think that something as MASSIVE as the top of the WTC falling onto the fixed LOWER portion WOULD NOT look like an EXPLOSION.
An EXPLOSION is the sudden release of stored energy.
The collapse of the WTC was the sudden release of stored energy.
Simple enough?
Arthur
Thanks, Art, that's better than nothing I guess but I don't see a 'collapse' accounting for this kind of explosion

especially considering it happened twice in one day to two buildings that were compromised in different ways. Maybe if it only happened to one building (and even then only if it were much more compromised), then maybe I could believe it. But TWO of them?
Oh, wait... three of them... (I know, I know, WTC 7 was a normal, implosion-style CD, different story)
But thanks, anyway.
Jamies reverse explosion. It goes off on top then the cloud gets bigger as it goes down...
Jamie bomb...

Hi CS. Now, CS, I'm going to use a term which I do NOT want you to apply to CTers, no matter how much 'that way' they may appear to be. OK? Promise?
Now some time back when researching rockets/missiles/ballistics (the latter also including small arms/bullets/projectiles etc), I witnessed some police forensic surgeon's experiments on the effects on 'cadavers' of DUM DUM rounds (bullets with hollow points which 'enter clean' but 'exit messy' because they 'spread' and 'entrain' much pressure-waves and material by the time they exit...which is why the 'head' of the cadaver soon EXPLODES and sprays brain, bone and blood everywhere.
I think that if a little bullet can have THAT 'explosive' an effect, think of what MILLIONS of pounds of hat truss and upper BOX structure and floors can do as it ALL ACCELERATES into the lower parts of the towers. Cheers!
PS: Remember, CS....please do NOT use the legitimate term 'DUM DUM' bullet for your own entertainment at the expense of any innocent CTer! OK? Promise?
RC.
.
...
What's causing that huge explosion, Arty?
When the towers were built the steel and concrete were hoisted up, much of it over 1,000 feet.
It took ENERGY to hoist the material up against the force of gravity.
In doing so the material gained potential energy.
As an EXAMPLE, say you took a 20lb piece of concrete and you placed it upon a car next to the WTC.
Assuming you did this carefully you wouldn't even scratch the paint.
Now take an identical piece of concrete and ride the elevator up to the observation deck. This is analogus to the concrete being poured on a top floor. In this case the elevator has imparted POTENTIAL energy to the piece of concrete.
Now walk over to the side of the WTC and drop the concrete onto the car parked below.
It will do a LOT more than scratch the paint.
It will TOTAL the CAR.
Why do you think that something as MASSIVE as the top of the WTC falling onto the fixed LOWER portion WOULD NOT look like an EXPLOSION.
An EXPLOSION is the sudden release of stored energy.
The collapse of the WTC was the sudden release of stored energy.
Simple enough?
Arthur
Thanks, Art, that's better than nothing I guess but I don't see a 'collapse' accounting for this kind of explosion

especially considering it happened twice in one day to two buildings that were compromised in different ways. Maybe if it only happened to one building (and even then only if it were much more compromised), then maybe I could believe it. But TWO of them?
Oh, wait... three of them... (I know, I know, WTC 7 was a normal, implosion-style CD, different story)
But thanks, anyway.
Jamies reverse explosion. It goes off on top then the cloud gets bigger as it goes down...
Jamie bomb...

Hi CS. Now, CS, I'm going to use a term which I do NOT want you to apply to CTers, no matter how much 'that way' they may appear to be. OK? Promise?
Now some time back when researching rockets/missiles/ballistics (the latter also including small arms/bullets/projectiles etc), I witnessed some police forensic surgeon's experiments on the effects on 'cadavers' of DUM DUM rounds (bullets with hollow points which 'enter clean' but 'exit messy' because they 'spread' and 'entrain' much pressure-waves and material by the time they exit...which is why the 'head' of the cadaver soon EXPLODES and sprays brain, bone and blood everywhere.
I think that if a little bullet can have THAT 'explosive' an effect, think of what MILLIONS of pounds of hat truss and upper BOX structure and floors can do as it ALL ACCELERATES into the lower parts of the towers. Cheers!
PS: Remember, CS....please do NOT use the legitimate term 'DUM DUM' bullet for your own entertainment at the expense of any innocent CTer! OK? Promise?
RC.
.
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 7 2006, 12:23 AM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 6 2006, 11:58 PM)
QUOTE (JamesX+Mar 6 2006, 10:53 PM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 6 2006, 10:15 PM)
QUOTE (JamesX+Mar 6 2006, 05:45 PM)
Let's pretend the ArsoNIST's do explain everything. (I know they don't, but just for the sake of this discussion.) Could you put it into brief, simple language that even a MORON could understand? Or is your foilhat fantasy really that fu<king mystical, Arty?
...
What's causing that huge explosion, Arty?
When the towers were built the steel and concrete were hoisted up, much of it over 1,000 feet.
It took ENERGY to hoist the material up against the force of gravity.
In doing so the material gained potential energy.
As an EXAMPLE, say you took a 20lb piece of concrete and you placed it upon a car next to the WTC.
Assuming you did this carefully you wouldn't even scratch the paint.
Now take an identical piece of concrete and ride the elevator up to the observation deck. This is analogus to the concrete being poured on a top floor. In this case the elevator has imparted POTENTIAL energy to the piece of concrete.
Now walk over to the side of the WTC and drop the concrete onto the car parked below.
It will do a LOT more than scratch the paint.
It will TOTAL the CAR.
Why do you think that something as MASSIVE as the top of the WTC falling onto the fixed LOWER portion WOULD NOT look like an EXPLOSION.
An EXPLOSION is the sudden release of stored energy.
The collapse of the WTC was the sudden release of stored energy.
Simple enough?
Arthur
Thanks, Art, that's better than nothing I guess but I don't see a 'collapse' accounting for this kind of explosion

especially considering it happened twice in one day to two buildings that were compromised in different ways. Maybe if it only happened to one building (and even then only if it were much more compromised), then maybe I could believe it. But TWO of them?
Oh, wait... three of them... (I know, I know, WTC 7 was a normal, implosion-style CD, different story)
But thanks, anyway.
Jamies reverse explosion. It goes off on top then the cloud gets bigger as it goes down...
Jamie bomb...

Hi CS. Now, CS, I'm going to use a term which I do NOT want you to apply to CTers, no matter how much 'that way' they may appear to be. OK? Promise?
Now some time back when researching rockets/missiles/ballistics (the latter also including small arms/bullets/projectiles etc), I witnessed some police forensic surgeon's experiments on the effects on 'cadavers' of DUM DUM rounds (bullets with hollow points which 'enter clean' but 'exit messy' because they 'spread' and 'entrain' much pressure-waves and material by the time they exit...which is why the 'head' of the cadaver soon EXPLODES and sprays brain, bone and blood everywhere.
I think that if a little bullet can have THAT 'explosive' an effect, think of what MILLIONS of pounds of hat truss and upper BOX structure and floors can do as it ALL ACCELERATES into the lower parts of the towers. Cheers!
PS: Remember, CS....please do NOT use the legitimate term 'DUM DUM' bullet for your own entertainment at the expense of any innocent CTer! OK? Promise?
RC.
.
I promise, I'm just afraid they'll think you just threated to shoot them with dum, dum bullets.
HEHE!
...
What's causing that huge explosion, Arty?
When the towers were built the steel and concrete were hoisted up, much of it over 1,000 feet.
It took ENERGY to hoist the material up against the force of gravity.
In doing so the material gained potential energy.
As an EXAMPLE, say you took a 20lb piece of concrete and you placed it upon a car next to the WTC.
Assuming you did this carefully you wouldn't even scratch the paint.
Now take an identical piece of concrete and ride the elevator up to the observation deck. This is analogus to the concrete being poured on a top floor. In this case the elevator has imparted POTENTIAL energy to the piece of concrete.
Now walk over to the side of the WTC and drop the concrete onto the car parked below.
It will do a LOT more than scratch the paint.
It will TOTAL the CAR.
Why do you think that something as MASSIVE as the top of the WTC falling onto the fixed LOWER portion WOULD NOT look like an EXPLOSION.
An EXPLOSION is the sudden release of stored energy.
The collapse of the WTC was the sudden release of stored energy.
Simple enough?
Arthur
Thanks, Art, that's better than nothing I guess but I don't see a 'collapse' accounting for this kind of explosion

especially considering it happened twice in one day to two buildings that were compromised in different ways. Maybe if it only happened to one building (and even then only if it were much more compromised), then maybe I could believe it. But TWO of them?
Oh, wait... three of them... (I know, I know, WTC 7 was a normal, implosion-style CD, different story)
But thanks, anyway.
Jamies reverse explosion. It goes off on top then the cloud gets bigger as it goes down...
Jamie bomb...

Hi CS. Now, CS, I'm going to use a term which I do NOT want you to apply to CTers, no matter how much 'that way' they may appear to be. OK? Promise?
Now some time back when researching rockets/missiles/ballistics (the latter also including small arms/bullets/projectiles etc), I witnessed some police forensic surgeon's experiments on the effects on 'cadavers' of DUM DUM rounds (bullets with hollow points which 'enter clean' but 'exit messy' because they 'spread' and 'entrain' much pressure-waves and material by the time they exit...which is why the 'head' of the cadaver soon EXPLODES and sprays brain, bone and blood everywhere.
I think that if a little bullet can have THAT 'explosive' an effect, think of what MILLIONS of pounds of hat truss and upper BOX structure and floors can do as it ALL ACCELERATES into the lower parts of the towers. Cheers!
PS: Remember, CS....please do NOT use the legitimate term 'DUM DUM' bullet for your own entertainment at the expense of any innocent CTer! OK? Promise?
RC.
.
I promise, I'm just afraid they'll think you just threated to shoot them with dum, dum bullets.
HEHE!
QUOTE (hereward+Mar 6 2006, 11:38 PM)
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 6 2006, 01:36 PM)
Part of the core.

This image seems to show a small part of the core. What happened to the rest.
Why do we see perimiter walls towering over this little stump?
In both photos we have one row of interior box columns. The inner wall of the outer tube. This image is taken from inside the core.

The row of box columns here are closely mated on the right side to a featureless gray mass. What could that be?

None of the columns we see had thermite at the base, and ................. why doesn't the top image have the gray mass next to it??

This image seems to show a small part of the core. What happened to the rest.
Why do we see perimiter walls towering over this little stump?
In both photos we have one row of interior box columns. The inner wall of the outer tube. This image is taken from inside the core.

The row of box columns here are closely mated on the right side to a featureless gray mass. What could that be?

None of the columns we see had thermite at the base, and ................. why doesn't the top image have the gray mass next to it??
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 6 2006, 03:22 PM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 6 2006, 10:21 PM)
.
Hi all!
One question for the 'Controlled Demolition' CTers:
Why would the 'Controlled Demolition' perpetrators FIRST demolish the tower which was hit SECOND....shouldn't anyone trying to avoid suspicion first demolish the tower that was hit FIRST?
RC.
.
Hi Zoktober! Since you're online too, would you like to have a go at answering my question (above)? Cheers!
PS: hereward? reasonwhy? Mel? Rove's? gordon? James? Cosmo? newton? Temp? Foxx? metamars? Andrew?....anyone? from the alleged-CD 'side'?
RC.
.
Why???
Because of a thing called angular momentum.
The south tower's cap was leaning well beyond the plane of the south face.
From the pre-collapse perspective of the watchers; it could rotate, right off.
What would you do, with a compromised, decapitated building; full of demolition devices, still standing, in the middle of lower Manhattan?
How would you explain, a subsequent collapse with out a source of accelerated mass?
They had to compress the time frame, in the algorithm, to avoid that.
There was a lot on the line, including someones insurance money.
Just for the record, I'm addressing the issue in your post, not you.
Until you get back on your meds, it's going to be like that, at least from me.
Hi all!
One question for the 'Controlled Demolition' CTers:
Why would the 'Controlled Demolition' perpetrators FIRST demolish the tower which was hit SECOND....shouldn't anyone trying to avoid suspicion first demolish the tower that was hit FIRST?
RC.
.
Hi Zoktober! Since you're online too, would you like to have a go at answering my question (above)? Cheers!
PS: hereward? reasonwhy? Mel? Rove's? gordon? James? Cosmo? newton? Temp? Foxx? metamars? Andrew?....anyone? from the alleged-CD 'side'?
RC.
.
Why???
Because of a thing called angular momentum.
The south tower's cap was leaning well beyond the plane of the south face.
From the pre-collapse perspective of the watchers; it could rotate, right off.
What would you do, with a compromised, decapitated building; full of demolition devices, still standing, in the middle of lower Manhattan?
How would you explain, a subsequent collapse with out a source of accelerated mass?
They had to compress the time frame, in the algorithm, to avoid that.
There was a lot on the line, including someones insurance money.
Just for the record, I'm addressing the issue in your post, not you.
Until you get back on your meds, it's going to be like that, at least from me.
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 7 2006, 12:20 AM)
.
Does any Controlled Demolition theorist have an answer to my earlier question regarding the ORDER of "demolition"...that is, Why did the tower impacted SECOND get allegedly 'demolished' FIRST if they didn't want to arouse suspicion?
RC.
.
*Crickets*
Does any Controlled Demolition theorist have an answer to my earlier question regarding the ORDER of "demolition"...that is, Why did the tower impacted SECOND get allegedly 'demolished' FIRST if they didn't want to arouse suspicion?
RC.
.
*Crickets*
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 7 2006, 12:20 AM)
.
Does any Controlled Demolition theorist have an answer to my earlier question regarding the ORDER of "demolition"...that is, Why did the tower impacted SECOND get allegedly 'demolished' FIRST if they didn't want to arouse suspicion?
RC.
.
The answer would be speculative and a giant waste of time.
Does any Controlled Demolition theorist have an answer to my earlier question regarding the ORDER of "demolition"...that is, Why did the tower impacted SECOND get allegedly 'demolished' FIRST if they didn't want to arouse suspicion?
RC.
.
The answer would be speculative and a giant waste of time.
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 7 2006, 12:40 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 7 2006, 12:23 AM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 6 2006, 11:58 PM)
QUOTE (JamesX+Mar 6 2006, 10:53 PM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 6 2006, 10:15 PM)
QUOTE (JamesX+Mar 6 2006, 05:45 PM)
Let's pretend the ArsoNIST's do explain everything. (I know they don't, but just for the sake of this discussion.) Could you put it into brief, simple language that even a MORON could understand? Or is your foilhat fantasy really that fu<king mystical, Arty?
...
What's causing that huge explosion, Arty?
When the towers were built the steel and concrete were hoisted up, much of it over 1,000 feet.
It took ENERGY to hoist the material up against the force of gravity.
In doing so the material gained potential energy.
As an EXAMPLE, say you took a 20lb piece of concrete and you placed it upon a car next to the WTC.
Assuming you did this carefully you wouldn't even scratch the paint.
Now take an identical piece of concrete and ride the elevator up to the observation deck. This is analogus to the concrete being poured on a top floor. In this case the elevator has imparted POTENTIAL energy to the piece of concrete.
Now walk over to the side of the WTC and drop the concrete onto the car parked below.
It will do a LOT more than scratch the paint.
It will TOTAL the CAR.
Why do you think that something as MASSIVE as the top of the WTC falling onto the fixed LOWER portion WOULD NOT look like an EXPLOSION.
An EXPLOSION is the sudden release of stored energy.
The collapse of the WTC was the sudden release of stored energy.
Simple enough?
Arthur
Thanks, Art, that's better than nothing I guess but I don't see a 'collapse' accounting for this kind of explosion

especially considering it happened twice in one day to two buildings that were compromised in different ways. Maybe if it only happened to one building (and even then only if it were much more compromised), then maybe I could believe it. But TWO of them?
Oh, wait... three of them... (I know, I know, WTC 7 was a normal, implosion-style CD, different story)
But thanks, anyway.
Jamies reverse explosion. It goes off on top then the cloud gets bigger as it goes down...
Jamie bomb...

Hi CS. Now, CS, I'm going to use a term which I do NOT want you to apply to CTers, no matter how much 'that way' they may appear to be. OK? Promise?
Now some time back when researching rockets/missiles/ballistics (the latter also including small arms/bullets/projectiles etc), I witnessed some police forensic surgeon's experiments on the effects on 'cadavers' of DUM DUM rounds (bullets with hollow points which 'enter clean' but 'exit messy' because they 'spread' and 'entrain' much pressure-waves and material by the time they exit...which is why the 'head' of the cadaver soon EXPLODES and sprays brain, bone and blood everywhere.
I think that if a little bullet can have THAT 'explosive' an effect, think of what MILLIONS of pounds of hat truss and upper BOX structure and floors can do as it ALL ACCELERATES into the lower parts of the towers. Cheers!
PS: Remember, CS....please do NOT use the legitimate term 'DUM DUM' bullet for your own entertainment at the expense of any innocent CTer! OK? Promise?
RC.
.
I promise, I'm just afraid they'll think you just threated to shoot them with dum, dum bullets.
HEHE!
Nawww...I think you're exaggerating! No-one could be THAT bloody-minded (another 'violent/gory' good ol' Brit/Aussie term, hehehe), surely!
RC.
.
...
What's causing that huge explosion, Arty?
When the towers were built the steel and concrete were hoisted up, much of it over 1,000 feet.
It took ENERGY to hoist the material up against the force of gravity.
In doing so the material gained potential energy.
As an EXAMPLE, say you took a 20lb piece of concrete and you placed it upon a car next to the WTC.
Assuming you did this carefully you wouldn't even scratch the paint.
Now take an identical piece of concrete and ride the elevator up to the observation deck. This is analogus to the concrete being poured on a top floor. In this case the elevator has imparted POTENTIAL energy to the piece of concrete.
Now walk over to the side of the WTC and drop the concrete onto the car parked below.
It will do a LOT more than scratch the paint.
It will TOTAL the CAR.
Why do you think that something as MASSIVE as the top of the WTC falling onto the fixed LOWER portion WOULD NOT look like an EXPLOSION.
An EXPLOSION is the sudden release of stored energy.
The collapse of the WTC was the sudden release of stored energy.
Simple enough?
Arthur
Thanks, Art, that's better than nothing I guess but I don't see a 'collapse' accounting for this kind of explosion

especially considering it happened twice in one day to two buildings that were compromised in different ways. Maybe if it only happened to one building (and even then only if it were much more compromised), then maybe I could believe it. But TWO of them?
Oh, wait... three of them... (I know, I know, WTC 7 was a normal, implosion-style CD, different story)
But thanks, anyway.
Jamies reverse explosion. It goes off on top then the cloud gets bigger as it goes down...
Jamie bomb...

Hi CS. Now, CS, I'm going to use a term which I do NOT want you to apply to CTers, no matter how much 'that way' they may appear to be. OK? Promise?
Now some time back when researching rockets/missiles/ballistics (the latter also including small arms/bullets/projectiles etc), I witnessed some police forensic surgeon's experiments on the effects on 'cadavers' of DUM DUM rounds (bullets with hollow points which 'enter clean' but 'exit messy' because they 'spread' and 'entrain' much pressure-waves and material by the time they exit...which is why the 'head' of the cadaver soon EXPLODES and sprays brain, bone and blood everywhere.
I think that if a little bullet can have THAT 'explosive' an effect, think of what MILLIONS of pounds of hat truss and upper BOX structure and floors can do as it ALL ACCELERATES into the lower parts of the towers. Cheers!
PS: Remember, CS....please do NOT use the legitimate term 'DUM DUM' bullet for your own entertainment at the expense of any innocent CTer! OK? Promise?
RC.
.
I promise, I'm just afraid they'll think you just threated to shoot them with dum, dum bullets.
HEHE!
Nawww...I think you're exaggerating! No-one could be THAT bloody-minded (another 'violent/gory' good ol' Brit/Aussie term, hehehe), surely!
RC.
.
QUOTE (Christophera+Mar 7 2006, 12:46 AM)
QUOTE (hereward+Mar 6 2006, 11:38 PM)
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 6 2006, 01:36 PM)
Part of the core.

This image seems to show a small part of the core. What happened to the rest.
Why do we see perimiter walls towering over this little stump?
In both photos we have one row of interior box columns. The inner wall of the outer tube. This image is taken from inside the core.

The row of box columns here are closely mated on the right side to a featureless gray mass. What could that be?

None of the columns we see had thermite at the base, and ................. why doesn't the top image have the gray mass next to it??
One shot was taken on oct 3rd, the other some time in December. On the Oct shots the pile was well above ground level as some of the shots bear out. By December they had gone below ground level. The gray mass you are seeing is the earth/debris below ground level. Keep in mind, the towers went deep underground which means so did the core columns. That man cutting steel would be in the basement had the towers not fallen. He still has a few floors underneath him.

This image seems to show a small part of the core. What happened to the rest.
Why do we see perimiter walls towering over this little stump?
In both photos we have one row of interior box columns. The inner wall of the outer tube. This image is taken from inside the core.

The row of box columns here are closely mated on the right side to a featureless gray mass. What could that be?

None of the columns we see had thermite at the base, and ................. why doesn't the top image have the gray mass next to it??
One shot was taken on oct 3rd, the other some time in December. On the Oct shots the pile was well above ground level as some of the shots bear out. By December they had gone below ground level. The gray mass you are seeing is the earth/debris below ground level. Keep in mind, the towers went deep underground which means so did the core columns. That man cutting steel would be in the basement had the towers not fallen. He still has a few floors underneath him.
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 7 2006, 12:47 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 7 2006, 12:20 AM)
.
Does any Controlled Demolition theorist have an answer to my earlier question regarding the ORDER of "demolition"...that is, Why did the tower impacted SECOND get allegedly 'demolished' FIRST if they didn't want to arouse suspicion?
RC.
.
*Crickets*
Beat me by a minute. Heh!
Does any Controlled Demolition theorist have an answer to my earlier question regarding the ORDER of "demolition"...that is, Why did the tower impacted SECOND get allegedly 'demolished' FIRST if they didn't want to arouse suspicion?
RC.
.
*Crickets*
Beat me by a minute. Heh!
QUOTE (Mel+Mar 7 2006, 12:53 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 7 2006, 12:20 AM)
.
Does any Controlled Demolition theorist have an answer to my earlier question regarding the ORDER of "demolition"...that is, Why did the tower impacted SECOND get allegedly 'demolished' FIRST if they didn't want to arouse suspicion?
RC.
.
The answer would be speculative and a giant waste of time.
Hi Mel!
That applies EQUALLY to much of what issues from YOUR 'side', does it not?
Nevertheless, it is as Fraterplecticus and others from your side have said loud and long: "CONTEXT", heh?
And IMPORTANT context it is too. wouldn't you say?
I mean, you and others have posted MUCH regarding MOTIVE, OPPORTUNITY, METHOD, CO-ORDINATION AND CONTROL etc etc etc. So doesn't it seem LOGICAL to START from that question I put to you?
WHY would ANY controlled demolition BEGIN with the SECOND and NOT the FIRST to be HIT? It's not difficult to see the LOGIC in that for an alleged CDer to do the first impacted tower FIRST so as not to arouse suspicion.
If you think THAT question IRRELEVANT, and it goes to the HEART of the matter, then how much MORE IRRELEVANT is all that 'context' stuff coming from YOUR 'side'?
All kiddding aside, Mel....don't you think my question is AT LEAST as relevant as all those 'speculations' coming from CTers? Be honest now, Mel?
RC.
.
Does any Controlled Demolition theorist have an answer to my earlier question regarding the ORDER of "demolition"...that is, Why did the tower impacted SECOND get allegedly 'demolished' FIRST if they didn't want to arouse suspicion?
RC.
.
The answer would be speculative and a giant waste of time.
Hi Mel!
That applies EQUALLY to much of what issues from YOUR 'side', does it not?
Nevertheless, it is as Fraterplecticus and others from your side have said loud and long: "CONTEXT", heh?
And IMPORTANT context it is too. wouldn't you say?
I mean, you and others have posted MUCH regarding MOTIVE, OPPORTUNITY, METHOD, CO-ORDINATION AND CONTROL etc etc etc. So doesn't it seem LOGICAL to START from that question I put to you?
WHY would ANY controlled demolition BEGIN with the SECOND and NOT the FIRST to be HIT? It's not difficult to see the LOGIC in that for an alleged CDer to do the first impacted tower FIRST so as not to arouse suspicion.
If you think THAT question IRRELEVANT, and it goes to the HEART of the matter, then how much MORE IRRELEVANT is all that 'context' stuff coming from YOUR 'side'?
All kiddding aside, Mel....don't you think my question is AT LEAST as relevant as all those 'speculations' coming from CTers? Be honest now, Mel?
RC.
.
QUOTE (hereward+Mar 6 2006, 07:38 PM)
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 6 2006, 01:36 PM)
Part of the core.

This image seems to show a small part of the core. What happened to the rest.
Why do we see perimiter walls towering over this little stump?
Cause the mass of the tower fell slightly the other way???
Actually I have no idea.
Chaos theory and all.
I'm curious though, why do you think someone should be able to explain every feature you see?
Arthur

This image seems to show a small part of the core. What happened to the rest.
Why do we see perimiter walls towering over this little stump?
Cause the mass of the tower fell slightly the other way???
Actually I have no idea.
Chaos theory and all.
I'm curious though, why do you think someone should be able to explain every feature you see?
Arthur
QUOTE (zoktoberfest+Mar 7 2006, 12:46 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 6 2006, 03:22 PM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 6 2006, 10:21 PM)
.
Hi all!
One question for the 'Controlled Demolition' CTers:
Why would the 'Controlled Demolition' perpetrators FIRST demolish the tower which was hit SECOND....shouldn't anyone trying to avoid suspicion first demolish the tower that was hit FIRST?
RC.
.
Hi Zoktober! Since you're online too, would you like to have a go at answering my question (above)? Cheers!
PS: hereward? reasonwhy? Mel? Rove's? gordon? James? Cosmo? newton? Temp? Foxx? metamars? Andrew?....anyone? from the alleged-CD 'side'?
RC.
.
Why???
Because of a thing called angular momentum.
The south tower's cap was leaning well beyond the plane of the south face.
From the pre-collapse perspective of the watchers; it could rotate, right off.
What would you do, with a compromised, decapitated building; full of demolition devices, still standing, in the middle of lower Manhattan?
How would you explain, a subsequent collapse with out a source of accelerated mass?
They had to compress the time frame, in the algorithm, to avoid that.
There was a lot on the line, including someones insurance money.
Just for the record, I'm addressing the issue in your post, not you.
Until you get back on your meds, it's going to be like that, at least from me.
Hi Zoktober!
The CTer scenarios say that the controlled demo mob cunningly set/shaped charges to go off so that it would look like a gravity collapse after impact/fire damage was enough.
If that were so, wouldn't the FIRST tower have sustained enough 'cover' damage to allow CD FIRST.....again, so as not to arouse the GUARANTEED suspicion if they first 'blew' the tower that was hit SECOND?
In that case, what was happening to the tops wouldn't BE 'relevant', now would it? I mean, if CD was the cause, it wouldn't have to BE the TOPS collapsing that did the 'deed', but the alleged CHARGES which made them LOCALLY COLLAPSE. You will recall that it was YOU CTers that said the LOCAL collapse couldn't happen, let alone the global collapse.
So according to y'all, it WAS CD, and so it couldn't have depended on which TOP was doing what. See?
RC.
.
Hi all!
One question for the 'Controlled Demolition' CTers:
Why would the 'Controlled Demolition' perpetrators FIRST demolish the tower which was hit SECOND....shouldn't anyone trying to avoid suspicion first demolish the tower that was hit FIRST?
RC.
.
Hi Zoktober! Since you're online too, would you like to have a go at answering my question (above)? Cheers!
PS: hereward? reasonwhy? Mel? Rove's? gordon? James? Cosmo? newton? Temp? Foxx? metamars? Andrew?....anyone? from the alleged-CD 'side'?
RC.
.
Why???
Because of a thing called angular momentum.
The south tower's cap was leaning well beyond the plane of the south face.
From the pre-collapse perspective of the watchers; it could rotate, right off.
What would you do, with a compromised, decapitated building; full of demolition devices, still standing, in the middle of lower Manhattan?
How would you explain, a subsequent collapse with out a source of accelerated mass?
They had to compress the time frame, in the algorithm, to avoid that.
There was a lot on the line, including someones insurance money.
Just for the record, I'm addressing the issue in your post, not you.
Until you get back on your meds, it's going to be like that, at least from me.
Hi Zoktober!
The CTer scenarios say that the controlled demo mob cunningly set/shaped charges to go off so that it would look like a gravity collapse after impact/fire damage was enough.
If that were so, wouldn't the FIRST tower have sustained enough 'cover' damage to allow CD FIRST.....again, so as not to arouse the GUARANTEED suspicion if they first 'blew' the tower that was hit SECOND?
In that case, what was happening to the tops wouldn't BE 'relevant', now would it? I mean, if CD was the cause, it wouldn't have to BE the TOPS collapsing that did the 'deed', but the alleged CHARGES which made them LOCALLY COLLAPSE. You will recall that it was YOU CTers that said the LOCAL collapse couldn't happen, let alone the global collapse.
So according to y'all, it WAS CD, and so it couldn't have depended on which TOP was doing what. See?
RC.
.
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 7 2006, 01:10 AM)
QUOTE (hereward+Mar 6 2006, 07:38 PM)
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 6 2006, 01:36 PM)
Part of the core.

This image seems to show a small part of the core. What happened to the rest.
Why do we see perimiter walls towering over this little stump?
Cause the mass of the tower fell slightly the other way???
Actually I have no idea.
Chaos theory and all.
I'm curious though, why do you think someone should be able to explain every feature you see?
Arthur
It all about finding the best explanation for the observed evidence. The CD hypothesis is an explanation which fits these observed phenomena well. (ie. cutting charges were used).
RC proposes that the columns snapped due to leverage on the lowest exposed parts of the columns. That's a different explanation.
If the evidence had been forensically analysed for explosive residue in an open and accountable way we could put this controversy to rest - the evidence would have been in the steel.
If there was a forensic examination of the steel then it was done in secret. Neither NIST nor FEMA were given such a task. It would be their field anyway would it?
You would need demolition experts for that job.
(: hereward

This image seems to show a small part of the core. What happened to the rest.
Why do we see perimiter walls towering over this little stump?
Cause the mass of the tower fell slightly the other way???
Actually I have no idea.
Chaos theory and all.
I'm curious though, why do you think someone should be able to explain every feature you see?
Arthur
It all about finding the best explanation for the observed evidence. The CD hypothesis is an explanation which fits these observed phenomena well. (ie. cutting charges were used).
RC proposes that the columns snapped due to leverage on the lowest exposed parts of the columns. That's a different explanation.
If the evidence had been forensically analysed for explosive residue in an open and accountable way we could put this controversy to rest - the evidence would have been in the steel.
If there was a forensic examination of the steel then it was done in secret. Neither NIST nor FEMA were given such a task. It would be their field anyway would it?
You would need demolition experts for that job.
(: hereward
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 7 2006, 01:10 AM)
QUOTE (hereward+Mar 6 2006, 07:38 PM)
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 6 2006, 01:36 PM)
Part of the core.

This image seems to show a small part of the core. What happened to the rest.
Why do we see perimiter walls towering over this little stump?
Cause the mass of the tower fell slightly the other way???
Actually I have no idea.
Chaos theory and all.
I'm curious though, why do you think someone should be able to explain every feature you see?
Arthur
One more thing, that loader is dwarfed by what's left of the core. That "Little stump" has got to be about 6 or 7 stories above gound given that the debris is also a few stories above ground.

This image seems to show a small part of the core. What happened to the rest.
Why do we see perimiter walls towering over this little stump?
Cause the mass of the tower fell slightly the other way???
Actually I have no idea.
Chaos theory and all.
I'm curious though, why do you think someone should be able to explain every feature you see?
Arthur
One more thing, that loader is dwarfed by what's left of the core. That "Little stump" has got to be about 6 or 7 stories above gound given that the debris is also a few stories above ground.
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 7 2006, 01:21 AM)
QUOTE (zoktoberfest+Mar 7 2006, 12:46 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 6 2006, 03:22 PM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Mar 6 2006, 10:21 PM)
.
Hi all!
One question for the 'Controlled Demolition' CTers:
Why would the 'Controlled Demolition' perpetrators FIRST demolish the tower which was hit SECOND....shouldn't anyone trying to avoid suspicion first demolish the tower that was hit FIRST?
RC.
.
Hi Zoktober! Since you're online too, would you like to have a go at answering my question (above)? Cheers!
PS: hereward? reasonwhy? Mel? Rove's? gordon? James? Cosmo? newton? Temp? Foxx? metamars? Andrew?....anyone? from the alleged-CD 'side'?
RC.
.
Why???
Because of a thing called angular momentum.
The south tower's cap was leaning well beyond the plane of the south face.
From the pre-collapse perspective of the watchers; it could rotate, right off.
What would you do, with a compromised, decapitated building; full of demolition devices, still standing, in the middle of lower Manhattan?
How would you explain, a subsequent collapse with out a source of accelerated mass?
They had to compress the time frame, in the algorithm, to avoid that.
There was a lot on the line, including someones insurance money.
Just for the record, I'm addressing the issue in your post, not you.
Until you get back on your meds, it's going to be like that, at least from me.
Hi Zoktober!
The CTer scenarios say that the controlled demo mob cunningly set/shaped charges to go off so that it would look like a gravity collapse after impact/fire danage was enough.
If that were so, wouldn't the FIRST tower have sustained enough 'cover' damage to allow CD FIRST.....again, so as not to arouse the GUARANTEED suspicion if they first 'blew' the tower that was hit SECOND?
In that case, what was happening to the tops wouldn't BE 'relevant', now would it? I mean, if CD was the cause, it wouldn't have to BE the TOPS collapsing that did the 'deed', but the alleged CHARGES which made them LOCALLY COLLAPSE. You will recall that it was YOU CTers that said the LOCAL collapse couldn't happen, let alone the global collapse.
So according to y'all, it WAS CD, and so it couldn't have depended on which TOP was doing what. See?
RC.
.
I don't think tha we "CT'ers" have said that a partial local collapse was out of the question.
Not at all. This would have been a likely scenario. Once a partial local collapse occured, it would be much harder to stage the global collapse.
(: hereward
Hi all!
One question for the 'Controlled Demolition' CTers:
Why would the 'Controlled Demolition' perpetrators FIRST demolish the tower which was hit SECOND....shouldn't anyone trying to avoid suspicion first demolish the tower that was hit FIRST?
RC.
.
Hi Zoktober! Since you're online too, would you like to have a go at answering my question (above)? Cheers!
PS: hereward? reasonwhy? Mel? Rove's? gordon? James? Cosmo? newton? Temp? Foxx? metamars? Andrew?....anyone? from the alleged-CD 'side'?
RC.
.
Why???
Because of a thing called angular momentum.
The south tower's cap was leaning well beyond the plane of the south face.
From the pre-collapse perspective of the watchers; it could rotate, right off.
What would you do, with a compromised, decapitated building; full of demolition devices, still standing, in the middle of lower Manhattan?
How would you explain, a subsequent collapse with out a source of accelerated mass?
They had to compress the time frame, in the algorithm, to avoid that.
There was a lot on the line, including someones insurance money.
Just for the record, I'm addressing the issue in your post, not you.
Until you get back on your meds, it's going to be like that, at least from me.
Hi Zoktober!
The CTer scenarios say that the controlled demo mob cunningly set/shaped charges to go off so that it would look like a gravity collapse after impact/fire danage was enough.
If that were so, wouldn't the FIRST tower have sustained enough 'cover' damage to allow CD FIRST.....again, so as not to arouse the GUARANTEED suspicion if they first 'blew' the tower that was hit SECOND?
In that case, what was happening to the tops wouldn't BE 'relevant', now would it? I mean, if CD was the cause, it wouldn't have to BE the TOPS collapsing that did the 'deed', but the alleged CHARGES which made them LOCALLY COLLAPSE. You will recall that it was YOU CTers that said the LOCAL collapse couldn't happen, let alone the global collapse.
So according to y'all, it WAS CD, and so it couldn't have depended on which TOP was doing what. See?
RC.
.
I don't think tha we "CT'ers" have said that a partial local collapse was out of the question.
Not at all. This would have been a likely scenario. Once a partial local collapse occured, it would be much harder to stage the global collapse.
(: hereward
This photo gives a better idea of how tall that "Stump" is.

http://www.toad.com/fucknyccensors/wtc100301/wtc070.jpg

http://www.toad.com/fucknyccensors/wtc100301/wtc070.jpg
QUOTE (Commen sense+Mar 7 2006, 01:25 AM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 7 2006, 01:10 AM)
QUOTE (hereward+Mar 6 2006, 07:38 PM)
QUOTE (shagster+Mar 6 2006, 01:36 PM)
Part of the core.

This image seems to show a small part of the core. What happened to the rest.
Why do we see perimiter walls towering over this little stump?
Cause the mass of the tower fell slightly the other way???
Actually I have no idea.
Chaos theory and all.
I'm curious though, why do you think someone should be able to explain every feature you see?
Arthur

This image seems to show a small part of the core. What happened to the rest.
Why do we see perimiter walls towering over this little stump?
Cause the mass of the tower fell slightly the other way???
Actually I have no idea.
Chaos theory and all.
I'm curious though, why do you think someone should be able to explain every feature you see?
Arthur