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frater plecticus
You wanna see debunking, brother ?

QUOTE
The Collapse of World Trade Center 7

Allegation:  9/11 Revealed suggests that the 47-story World Trade Center 7 building, which collapsed at 5:20 pm on September 11, was intentionally demolished.  The primary piece of evidence for this is a comment that Mr. Larry Silverstein, who owned the World Trade Center complex, made on the September 2002 television documentary American Rebuilds.  Mr. Silverstein said:

I remember getting a call from the Fire Department commander, telling me they were not sure they were going to be able to contain the fire.  I said, you know, “We've had such terrible loss of life that the smartest thing to do is just pull it.”  And they made that decision to pull it and we watched the [World Trade Center 7] building collapse.

9/11 Revealed and other conspiracy theorists put forward the notion that Mr. Silverstein’s suggestion to “pull it” is slang for intentionally demolishing the WTC 7 building.

Facts:  On September 9, 2005, Mr. Dara McQuillan, a spokesman for Silverstein Properties, issued the following statement on this issue:

    Seven World Trade Center collapsed at 5:20 p.m. on September 11, 2001, after burning for seven hours. There were no casualties, thanks to the heroism of the Fire Department and the work of Silverstein Properties employees who evacuated tenants from the building.

    The Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) conducted a thorough investigation of the collapse of all the World Trade Center buildings.  The FEMA report concluded that the collapse of Seven World Trade Center was a direct result of fires triggered by debris from the collapse of WTC Tower 1.

    In the afternoon of September 11, Mr. Silverstein spoke to the Fire Department Commander on site at Seven World Trade Center.  The Commander told Mr. Silverstein that there were several firefighters in the building working to contain the fires.  Mr. Silverstein expressed his view that the most important thing was to protect the safety of those firefighters, including, if necessary, to have them withdraw from the building.

    Later in the day, the Fire Commander ordered his firefighters out of the building and at 5:20 p.m. the building collapsed.  No lives were lost at Seven World Trade Center on September 11, 2001.

As noted above, when Mr. Silverstein was recounting these events for a television documentary he stated, “I said, you know, we've had such terrible loss of life.  Maybe the smartest thing to do is to pull it.”  Mr. McQuillan has stated that by “it,” Mr. Silverstein meant the contingent of firefighters remaining in the building.

The National Institute of Standards and Technology has stated unequivocally, “NIST has seen so evidence that the collapse of WTC 7 was caused by bombs, missiles, or controlled demolition,” in its Collapse of WTC 7 report (p. 6).  NIST’s working hypothesis for the collapse of WTC 7 is that it was caused by the collapse of a critical column due to “fire and/or debris induced structural damage.”  There was substantial damage to WTC 7 when the nearby WTC 1 tower collapsed and fires began shortly afterwards.  Also, WTC 7 was a very unusual building because it was built over an existing Con-Edison power generation substation, which contained two large 6,000 gallon fuel tanks for the emergency generation of power.  The fuel from these tanks could have contributed to the intense heat that apparently weakened the supporting columns in WTC 7.

http://usinfo.state.gov/media/misinformation.html

But my personal fave is this..



QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The Collapse of World Trade Center 7

Allegation:  9/11 Revealed suggests that the 47-story World Trade Center 7 building, which collapsed at 5:20 pm on September 11, was intentionally demolished.  The primary piece of evidence for this is a comment that Mr. Larry Silverstein, who owned the World Trade Center complex, made on the September 2002 television documentary American Rebuilds.  Mr. Silverstein said:

I remember getting a call from the Fire Department commander, telling me they were not sure they were going to be able to contain the fire.  I said, you know, “We've had such terrible loss of life that the smartest thing to do is just pull it.”  And they made that decision to pull it and we watched the [World Trade Center 7] building collapse.

9/11 Revealed and other conspiracy theorists put forward the notion that Mr. Silverstein’s suggestion to “pull it” is slang for intentionally demolishing the WTC 7 building.

Facts:  On September 9, 2005, Mr. Dara McQuillan, a spokesman for Silverstein Properties, issued the following statement on this issue:

    Seven World Trade Center collapsed at 5:20 p.m. on September 11, 2001, after burning for seven hours. There were no casualties, thanks to the heroism of the Fire Department and the work of Silverstein Properties employees who evacuated tenants from the building.

    The Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) conducted a thorough investigation of the collapse of all the World Trade Center buildings.  The FEMA report concluded that the collapse of Seven World Trade Center was a direct result of fires triggered by debris from the collapse of WTC Tower 1.

    In the afternoon of September 11, Mr. Silverstein spoke to the Fire Department Commander on site at Seven World Trade Center.  The Commander told Mr. Silverstein that there were several firefighters in the building working to contain the fires.  Mr. Silverstein expressed his view that the most important thing was to protect the safety of those firefighters, including, if necessary, to have them withdraw from the building.

    Later in the day, the Fire Commander ordered his firefighters out of the building and at 5:20 p.m. the building collapsed.  No lives were lost at Seven World Trade Center on September 11, 2001.

As noted above, when Mr. Silverstein was recounting these events for a television documentary he stated, “I said, you know, we've had such terrible loss of life.  Maybe the smartest thing to do is to pull it.”  Mr. McQuillan has stated that by “it,” Mr. Silverstein meant the contingent of firefighters remaining in the building.

The National Institute of Standards and Technology has stated unequivocally, “NIST has seen so evidence that the collapse of WTC 7 was caused by bombs, missiles, or controlled demolition,” in its Collapse of WTC 7 report (p. 6).  NIST’s working hypothesis for the collapse of WTC 7 is that it was caused by the collapse of a critical column due to “fire and/or debris induced structural damage.”  There was substantial damage to WTC 7 when the nearby WTC 1 tower collapsed and fires began shortly afterwards.  Also, WTC 7 was a very unusual building because it was built over an existing Con-Edison power generation substation, which contained two large 6,000 gallon fuel tanks for the emergency generation of power.  The fuel from these tanks could have contributed to the intense heat that apparently weakened the supporting columns in WTC 7.

http://usinfo.state.gov/media/misinformation.html

But my personal fave is this..



Allegation:  9/11 Revealed repeats long-standing rumors of “insider trading [based] on advance warnings of the attack.”

Facts:  The 9/11 Commission examined this issue in detail, stating, in The 9/11 Commission Report (p. 499):

    Highly publicized allegations of insider trading in advance of 9/11 generally rest on reports of unusual pre-9/11 trading activity in companies whose stock plummeted after the attacks.  Some unusual trading did in fact occur, but each such trade proved to have an innocuous explanation.  For example, the volume of put options – investments that pay off only when a stock drops in price – surged in the parent companies of United Airlines [UAL] on September 6 and American Airlines on September 10 – highly suspicious trading on its face.  Yet, further investigation has revealed that the trading had no connection with 9/11. A single U.S.-based institutional investor with no conceivable ties to al Qaeda purchased 95 percent of the UAL puts on September 6 as part of a trading strategy that also included buying 115,000 shares of American on September 10. Similarly, much of the seemingly suspicious trading in American on September 10 was traced to a specific U.S.-based options trading newsletter, faxed to its subscribers on Sunday, September 9, which recommended these trades.  These examples typify the evidence examined by the investigation.  The SEC [Security and Exchange Commission] and the FBI [Federal Bureau of Investigation], aided by other agencies and the securities industry, devoted enormous resources to investigating this issue, including securing the cooperation of many foreign governments.  These investigators have found that the apparently suspicious consistently proved innocuous.
http://usinfo.state.gov/media/misinformation.html
OpelGT73
QUOTE (mickeydoolittle+Nov 17 2005, 09:45 PM)

And why are guests popping out of nowhere all of a sudden? Also, to OpelGT73, stop posting as guest. You aren't fooling anyone with your guest posts. I also sent you a PM already. rolleyes.gif

I signed up earlier. How exactly would you be able to send me a PM if I wasn't registered? I replied to your PM by the way.
Schneibster
Well, at least this time you said something intelligent.

QUOTE (mickeydoolittle+)
So you acknowledge the fact that the government has been lying for a long time, well before 9/11. So, why do you still trust the official 9/11 story then? Shouldn't that concern you as well?
Who says I trust it? You STILL haven't read back in the thread, have you? Ever hear of Firehouse magazine? Try www.firehouse.com. Tell me if you think that's an agent of the gummint.
Schneibster
Oh, and by the way, assuming someone else is using sock puppets without presenting any sort of evidence of it, particularly when their posting styles are quite different, is a sure tip-off to one's own activities. Thanks for letting us all know what to look out for.
mickeydoolittle
Assuming that shills are infiltrating this message board is appropriate, since A_HT was caught admitting that he was an actualy shill earlier in this thread. Also, the timing of his departure and his absence of posting, and your arrival into this thread is highly suspicious as well. You also post the same way.
OpelGT73
The point of the PM was so that people weren't trying to contact me. It is obvious that you lack integrity and obviously intellect.
frater plecticus
user posted image
a_ht
QUOTE (mickeydoolittle+Nov 17 2005, 10:09 PM)
Assuming that shills are infiltrating this message board is appropriate, since A_HT was caught admitting that he was an actualy shill earlier in this thread. Also, the timing of his departure and his absence of posting, and your arrival into this thread is highly suspicious as well. You also post the same way.

Shill? im not familiar with that word.

Yes, Scheibster is my girlfriend, we are doing this to bring us closer together...
metamars
tongue.gif tongue.gif tongue.gif tongue.gif tongue.gif tongue.gif tongue.gif tongue.gif tongue.gif tongue.gif

Excuse me, "frater plectitus", but this picture doesn't fool me at all! This is clearly a disguise.

E.g.:

Drawing a line though your eyes, measuring, and then measuring perpendicularly to the top of the skull, one gets an impossily inhuman ratio of approximately 5.0

Furthermore, the hair follicles are way too thick to be characteristic of true homo sapiens.

Also, notice that the neck is about as thick as the skull. Thus, unless you're a footbal player, wrestler or body builder, your disguise is also clearly hiding something in the neck area. A weapon, perhaps?

Eyebrows are missing, though they could have been shaved.

The skin in this picture also isn't right. Can't quite put my finger on it, but clearly the pores are way too large. By an order of magnitude, I'd say.


Thus, I must conclude that this is NOT a true picture of "frater plectitus".


Hmmmmm. Perhaps "frater plectitus" = foxx ?

Well, come to think of it, I've never seen them post at exactly the same time! It's either one first, then the other, or vice versa.

Egads, this conspiracy is deeper than I thought!


Schneibster
wub.gif

Heh
frater plecticus
user posted image
QUOTE
"If it wasn't for you pesky kids, I would have gotten away with this".


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
"If it wasn't for you pesky kids, I would have gotten away with this".


Science (from Latin scientia - knowledge) is most commonly defined as the investigation or study of nature through observation and reasoning, aimed at finding out the truth. The term science also refers to the organized body of knowledge humans have gained by such research.
Guest
Dear other Guest and dear mickeydoolittle

Sirs/madams,
I take personal offence at being labelled a ‘shill’. I am no shill for anyone. By the unreasoning content and bellicose tone of your posts it is more safe to assume that it is your good selves that are the true shills for whomever is running these conspiracy theories. It is obvious to me why no person would be willing to provide your good selves with any personal information about themselves. It seems to me that it would be very dangerous to them and their families if ever some monomaniacs and potential lackeys or enforcers like your good selves decided to go in for personal and unreasoning revenge attacks on those persons who have a different point of view to your good selves. Please in future try to manage your anger and hysteria in matters of importance, as you do your masters no good service by accusing everyone who does not agree with your masters and their ‘shills’. I’m sure your masters are the smarter and more cunning among you, as they would not be your masters and you would not be their shills if the reverse were true. I demand an apology forthwith. I shall not respect anything your good selves have to say until that apology from both of you is posted. I don’t care who you are, shills or not, you must realise that I have feelings which you both have hurt. Please apologise and in future desist from branding me as one who is a ‘shill’ like your good selves have obviously shown yourselves to be with your nastiness and scattergun accusations against all those who are only trying to help get at truth wherever it is to be found. Your own efforts, depending as they do on insults, incomplete comprehension of the facts and quickness to anger and unreason, will not help your cause. Please then, apologise to me for calling me a shill and I assure you I will quickly and properly forget the matter of your offence towards me. I am not familiar or involved with your country’s political or civil struggles, so I am unaware of and disinterested in such matters as conspiracies by either yourselves or your governments. If your good selves are representative of the calibre of Americans in general, then I can only be thankful I am not one and not entirely surprised that such persons as yourselves or Mr Bush can become president in your country. I for one would not vote for either him or your good selves under any circumstances, as I think you are both of the type too unstable and unreasoning to hold such positions of power and trust. I am sirs/madams, your humble servant in the cause of truth and nothing else. Salutations.


metamars
In the interest of full disclosure, here is my picture:

User posted image


Yes, it's true.

The whole "planet Krypton" thing was a cover story. Home is Mars. We just didn't want Rovers, Voyagers, etc, from Earth messing up our neighborhood. If we had wanted to blow up Earth using our vastly superior technology, we could have easily done so, but we are a peaceful race. As long as we can keep the truly pitiful Earthling television programs out of Mars, I believe we can work this out.

Also, my parents are still alive, though I have to admit they're getting really old, even for Martians (we live 217 Earth years, almost to the day - the last 28.5 can be tough)

I'd also like to take this opportunity to state, for the record, that I never much cared for Lois Lane, as she was rather full of herself. I was quite fond of Lana Lang, though.

Plus, I prefer redheads. Speaking of which, who is that cute redhead in the picture, frater?
a_ht
shill; One who poses as a satisfied customer or an enthusiastic gambler to dupe bystanders into participating in a swindle.


Dont forget that shills get a profit from doing this. We get nothing out of this (well, I do get an increased pay check but thats just me, cant talk for the others).

@
To guy above; use www.imageshack.us
Guest_yesitdid
a_ht is typical of some non-believers in the official theory of the events of 9/11 to labels those who disagree with their view as "shills", and to accuse them of getting paid to defend the official theory. He/she makes this accusation despite absolutely no evidence whatsoever that anyone at all is being paid to do such a thing,none.

Then again lack of evidence does not seem to slow down many non-believers in the official theory in perpetrating their nonsense.

IMHO of course wink.gif
Guest
the above first sentence should read "A_ht, it is typical...etc."
Foxx
QUOTE (metamars+Nov 17 2005, 10:38 PM)
tongue.gif tongue.gif tongue.gif tongue.gif tongue.gif tongue.gif tongue.gif tongue.gif tongue.gif tongue.gif

Excuse me, "frater plectitus", but this picture doesn't fool me at all! This is clearly a disguise.

E.g.:

Drawing a line though your eyes, measuring, and then measuring perpendicularly to the top of the skull, one gets an impossily inhuman ratio of approximately 5.0

Furthermore, the hair follicles are way too thick to be characteristic of true homo sapiens.

Also, notice that the neck is about as thick as the skull. Thus, unless you're a footbal player, wrestler or body builder, your disguise is also clearly hiding something in the neck area. A weapon, perhaps?

Eyebrows are missing, though they could have been shaved.

The skin in this picture also isn't right. Can't quite put my finger on it, but clearly the pores are way too large. By an order of magnitude, I'd say.


Thus, I must conclude that this is NOT a true picture of "frater plectitus".


Hmmmmm. Perhaps "frater plectitus" = foxx ?

Well, come to think of it, I've never seen them post at exactly the same time! It's either one first, then the other, or vice versa.

Egads, this conspiracy is deeper than I thought!

Heh biggrin.gif

Hilarious, metamars & plecticus !!!

Got home from work today... check e-mail... deal with 'real' emails, and delete the spam... OK... let's see what has transpired at Physorg forum.

After going through a few pages of posts, I had to check my calendar to see what phase the moon is in... unfortunately I bought the wrong one this year and it doesn't tell me the moon changes.

[Note to self - "Self, next year be sure to get calendar with moon phases identified" ] ... (so as to know when the full moon is to appear - 'they' come out of the woodwork then! ).

Suggestion to all 'Guests' - why not come out of the closet?

It is quite easy to 'sign-up'. If you feel you have input (from one viewpoint or another), and would like to take part in these discussions... by all means, please 'sign-up'.

With apologies to Eminem ... ("will the real Slim Shady please stand up?)"



BTW - I always notice when I (and others) bring forward factual evidence related to this latest NIST Lie, one of 3 things occur:

1. supporters of the 'official story' go quiet, waiting for the topic to change...

2. supporters of the 'official story' attempt to come up with 'horsepucky' to defend the NIST Liars

3. supporters of the 'official story' flood the thread with spam, hoping the issue will just get lost and buried.

I hate to disappoint you 'defenders of the gravity-driven collapse theory... this issue will receive independant investigation, sooner or later... and I believe (given the momentum over the last couple of years, it's going to be sooner, rather than later.

----------------

Schneibster - You have intrigued me with the testimonial evidence you claim is documented on Firehouse.com regarding witness testimony from firefighters that there was a great gaping hole (even greater than the one in 130 Liberty Street), in the south side of WTC 7.

Like you, I look forward to receive pictures of the south-side # 7.

Until then, the testimony of a couple of witnesses means nothing to me.

Nevertheless, I would appreciate it if you could post links or references to the statements you are referring to. Thanks, buddy biggrin.gif








Schneibster
QUOTE (Faux+)
You have intrigued me with the testimonial evidence you claim is documented on Firehouse.com regarding witness testimony from firefighters that there was a great gaping hole (even greater than the one in 130 Liberty Street), in the south side of WTC 7.

...

Nevertheless, I would appreciate it if you could post links or references to the statements you are referring to.
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=3108&st=570#

They're linked in the post with the picture of 7 WTC with the big red box on it that you "couldn't see the bulge" in. I linked them before I quoted them, as I always do. It appears that you don't know how to follow links, so I'll explain: put your cursor over the underlined text and click the left mouse button.
Foxx
QUOTE (Schneibster+Nov 18 2005, 02:07 AM)
QUOTE (Faux+)
You have intrigued me with the testimonial evidence you claim is documented on Firehouse.com regarding witness testimony from firefighters that there was a great gaping hole (even greater than the one in 130 Liberty Street), in the south side of WTC 7.

...

Nevertheless, I would appreciate it if you could post links or references to the statements you are referring to.
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=3108&st=570#

They're linked in the post with the picture of 7 WTC with the big red box on it that you "couldn't see the bulge" in. I linked them before I quoted them, as I always do. It appears that you don't know how to follow links, so I'll explain: put your cursor over the underlined text and click the left mouse button.

I guess I'm just an idiot. I can't find it.

Please give direct links to 'Firehouse.com' testimonial evidence that firefighters said there was a great gaping hole (structural damage) to WTC 7 ?

As far as I have been able to determine these 'statements' are not as definitive as you suggest.


Hmmmm... just heard on the radio it's a 'full moon' tonight.

Were they 'lyin' ?
Guest
QUOTE
Plausibility is not the same as verification. On it's face, the collapse of WTC 1&2 via scenarios (such as they are) pushed by NIST & FEMA are plausible. Most everybody accepted the plane + fires + gravity notions, initially.

It's as one begins to learn the details that the FEMA, et. al. versions start looking like Fairy Tales.


What are these details you speak of?


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Plausibility is not the same as verification. On it's face, the collapse of WTC 1&2 via scenarios (such as they are) pushed by NIST & FEMA are plausible. Most everybody accepted the plane + fires + gravity notions, initially.

It's as one begins to learn the details that the FEMA, et. al. versions start looking like Fairy Tales.


What are these details you speak of?


Also, what is your opinion of Hoffman's criticisms of even the local collapse that NIST did model? Please be specific. ( http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/nist/index.html ) General comments such as "this is crap" do not contribute anything to the debate.


I'll start at his summary, because he basicly says the same thing over and over again:

QUOTE
Flatly asserting that "global collapse" inevitably follows "collapse initiation,"

It is obvious from the rough calculations by Bazant-Zhou that once the collapse has been initiated there is no way the underlying structure would stand, hence “global collapse” IS inevitable. Designing a building that can withstand (one or a handful) of its floors collapsing in the way the WTC did is simply not practical. You would end up with ridiculously unaffordable buildings with an absurdly small amount of floor space. It is MUCH more sensible to study the collapse of the initiating floors themselves, those failures can actually be studied, planned for, and prevented.
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Flatly asserting that "global collapse" inevitably follows "collapse initiation,"

It is obvious from the rough calculations by Bazant-Zhou that once the collapse has been initiated there is no way the underlying structure would stand, hence “global collapse” IS inevitable. Designing a building that can withstand (one or a handful) of its floors collapsing in the way the WTC did is simply not practical. You would end up with ridiculously unaffordable buildings with an absurdly small amount of floor space. It is MUCH more sensible to study the collapse of the initiating floors themselves, those failures can actually be studied, planned for, and prevented.
the Report implies that the only issue worthy of study is how the jet impacts and fires led to collapse initiation -- an issue to which it devotes well over one hundred pages.

Because like I said above it is impractical to prevent global collapse after a localized floor collapse. The only thing really preventable is the localized collapse.
QUOTE
Thus, the Report makes two fundamental claims, the first explicit and the second implicit:……(snip)……. Accepting that claim requires us to believe:
That the collapses of WTC 1, 2, and 7 are the only examples of total progressive collapse of steel-framed structures in history.

Aside from the other steel frame collapses earlier in the thread this statement is an obvious logical fallacy. He is implying that since no other steel framed structures have collapsed that these shouldn’t have either. Funny I don’t remember there being too many steel framed 100+ floor buildings being hit by passenger jets, and then subsequently plagued by ensuing fires. One thing you will find in high rise building construction, and even more prevalent in projects like this one, The Sears Tower, The Hancock, Empire State…ect. Is that they are all wildly different in structural design and the way in which they distribute loads. It is disingenuous at best to compare structural steel building fires considering the difference in load distribution; it is even more fallacious to compare the aircraft damage to the Empire state building to that of the WTC.
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Thus, the Report makes two fundamental claims, the first explicit and the second implicit:……(snip)……. Accepting that claim requires us to believe:
That the collapses of WTC 1, 2, and 7 are the only examples of total progressive collapse of steel-framed structures in history.

Aside from the other steel frame collapses earlier in the thread this statement is an obvious logical fallacy. He is implying that since no other steel framed structures have collapsed that these shouldn’t have either. Funny I don’t remember there being too many steel framed 100+ floor buildings being hit by passenger jets, and then subsequently plagued by ensuing fires. One thing you will find in high rise building construction, and even more prevalent in projects like this one, The Sears Tower, The Hancock, Empire State…ect. Is that they are all wildly different in structural design and the way in which they distribute loads. It is disingenuous at best to compare structural steel building fires considering the difference in load distribution; it is even more fallacious to compare the aircraft damage to the Empire state building to that of the WTC.
That those collapses were gravity-driven despite showing all the common physical features of controlled demolitions. In the cases of the Twin Towers, those features included the following:

This is quite another disingenuous statement. Controlled demolition does not destroy the structure by way of explosives per se. Rather it destroys the key columns thereby letting the weight of the structure destroy itself. In the case of the WTC critical columns were compromised by the destruction of the plane and further weakened by the fires. Once enough of the members failed the mass of the building destroyed itself. Typically charges are placed at the base and the top of the building, but none in the mid section. Watching the video it is clear that the building falls from the top down. Which makes sense because the failure was close to the top.
QUOTE
Radial symmetry: The Towers came straight down, blowing debris symmetrically in all directions.

It appears as if Jim Hoffman needs to review Newton’s first law.
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Radial symmetry: The Towers came straight down, blowing debris symmetrically in all directions.

It appears as if Jim Hoffman needs to review Newton’s first law.
Rapid descent: The Towers came down just slightly slower than the rate of free-fall in a vacuum.

As has been shown in this very thread the towers fell at slower than free fall. If you cant see that the pieces of the façade are falling at a faster rate than the building itself then you have more important problems to worry about than these conspiracy theories.
I would also like to hear (from those that believe in the controlled demo theory) why it is that controlled demolition explosives would cause the building to fall at “near” free fall speeds, yet the falling mass of the cap of the building would not.
QUOTE
Demolition waves: The Towers were consumed by synchronized rows of confluent explosions.

Hmmm sounds indicative of floors “pancaking” together, but hey that’s just me.
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Demolition waves: The Towers were consumed by synchronized rows of confluent explosions.

Hmmm sounds indicative of floors “pancaking” together, but hey that’s just me.
Demolition squibs: The Towers exhibited high-velocity gas ejections well below the descending rubble.

This couldn’t possible be from pipes and air ducts bursting from pressure could it? Oh wait….yes it could.
QUOTE
Pulverization: The Towers' non-metallic components, such as their concrete floors, were pulverized into fine dust.
Totality: The Towers were destroyed totally, their steel skeletons shredded into short pieces, most less than 30 feet long.

I would again like to hear why everyone thinks that this can only be caused by “controlled demolition”. HINT: explosives in controlled demolitions do not destroy the concrete and the structure per se.
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Pulverization: The Towers' non-metallic components, such as their concrete floors, were pulverized into fine dust.
Totality: The Towers were destroyed totally, their steel skeletons shredded into short pieces, most less than 30 feet long.

I would again like to hear why everyone thinks that this can only be caused by “controlled demolition”. HINT: explosives in controlled demolitions do not destroy the concrete and the structure per se.
All of these features are seen in conventional controlled demolitions. None have ever been observed in steel-framed buildings collapsing for any reason other than controlled demolition.

Another blatant logical fallacy.
QUOTE
What are the chances that a phenomenon other than controlled demolition would exhibit all six features never observed elsewhere except in controlled demolitions?

What are the chances that buildings get hit by airliners and then burn in a subsequent fire?

That’s about all I can take of this “critique”. He is basically stating the same drivel over and over again. “This has never happened before”, “it looks like controlled demolition”. His arguments are riddled with obvious straw man fallacies and non sequiturs. What’s funny is that his own hypothesis is troubled with the exact lack of logic that he asserts the NIST/FEMA reports contain.
OpelGT73
OOOPs

That was my reply above, I did it at my home computer and it didn't ask me to log in so it posted as guest.
Schneibster
QUOTE (Faux+)
As far as I have been able to determine these 'statements' are not as definitive as you suggest.
Everybody else can see and follow the links, and I quoted the relevant parts. "So we go there and on the north and east side of 7 it didn’t look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors." Sounds pretty definitive to me. What, you've got the same problem reading plain black-and-white text as you have seeing photographs?

Why should I help you after the a**hole you've been? Figure it out for yourself. Considering your likely use of it, I see no point in wasting my time. Please don't waste any more of it pretending you're all niceynice after I pwned you and you denied what everyone else can look and see in front of their face. If you wanted something different, perhaps you should have begun differently. As it is, your buddies have revealed the private information of two different individuals, who did no harm to you, without their prior consent, have accused me of everything but baby raping and that's probably just because they forgot, and denied obvious facts placed right in front of them. You have called me a liar, and accused me of much the same. I see no reason to be polite, and no reason to expect you will be even if I am. In fact, I expect that if I AM polite, you'll try to use it to take advantage of me. I detest you, and I think you are despicable, and that it is likely that you stand to make a buck off someone buying some magazine, or site subscription, or book, or T-shirt, or perhaps off advertising on some site you want everyone to visit. You disgust me, and I think you are a sorry excuse for a human being. Good bye.
frater plecticus
OpelGT73
QUOTE
I would again like to hear why everyone thinks that this can only be caused by “controlled demolition”. HINT: explosives in controlled demolitions do not destroy the concrete and the structure per se.


Not eveyone.

But, "if explosives in controlled demolitions do not destroy the concrete and the structure per se", then how is it possible that 2 "planes as weapons" do?
OpelGT73
QUOTE (frater plecticus+Nov 18 2005, 03:32 AM)
OpelGT73
QUOTE
I would again like to hear why everyone thinks that this can only be caused by “controlled demolition”. HINT: explosives in controlled demolitions do not destroy the concrete and the structure per se.


Not eveyone.

But, "if explosives in controlled demolitions do not destroy the concrete and the structure per se", then how is it possible that 2 "planes as weapons" do?

Maybe you don't understand the phrase "per se". It means "by, of, or in itself".

I knew I would probably have to explain this further. Ok .....Explosives used in controlled demolition do not cause this damage by, of , or in themselves. What they do is they cause a structural failure. When the structure fails, it collapses. It isn't the explosives themselves that pulverize the concrete; it is the mass of the structure crushing itself that causes that.
Schneibster
You know, Opel, I never thought to explain that; it seemed obvious to me. I can't imagine not understanding that that's how a building demolition works. But now that you say it, perhaps that's part of the trouble. Maybe I should be looking at the assumptions underlying what I'm saying to see where folks who don't have technical training might not understand.

Granted, however, that that would be considerably easier to do if people would just say, "I don't understand why you think that.." instead of calling me a liar.
Foxx
QUOTE (OpelGT73+Nov 18 2005, 03:40 AM)
QUOTE (frater plecticus+Nov 18 2005, 03:32 AM)
OpelGT73
QUOTE
I would again like to hear why everyone thinks that this can only be caused by “controlled demolition”. HINT: explosives in controlled demolitions do not destroy the concrete and the structure per se.


Not eveyone.

But, "if explosives in controlled demolitions do not destroy the concrete and the structure per se", then how is it possible that 2 "planes as weapons" do?

Maybe you don't understand the phrase "per se". It means "by, of, or in itself".

I knew I would probably have to explain this further. Ok .....Explosives used in controlled demolition do not cause this damage by, of , or in themselves. What they do is they cause a structural failure. When the structure fails, it collapses. It isn't the explosives themselves that pulverize the concrete; it is the mass of the structure crushing itself that causes that.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
I would again like to hear why everyone thinks that this can only be caused by “controlled demolition”. HINT: explosives in controlled demolitions do not destroy the concrete and the structure per se.


Not eveyone.

But, "if explosives in controlled demolitions do not destroy the concrete and the structure per se", then how is it possible that 2 "planes as weapons" do?

Maybe you don't understand the phrase "per se". It means "by, of, or in itself".

I knew I would probably have to explain this further. Ok .....Explosives used in controlled demolition do not cause this damage by, of , or in themselves. What they do is they cause a structural failure. When the structure fails, it collapses. It isn't the explosives themselves that pulverize the concrete; it is the mass of the structure crushing itself that causes that.

It isn't the explosives themselves that pulverize the concrete; it is the mass of the structure crushing itself that causes that


Well, Hoffman has offered some quantitative numbers regarding this pulverization aspect. Real numbers , not just postulated speculations. Although you mock Hoffmans calcs, I do not see you offering any alternative calculations, nor any mathematics theory/ equation to refute his analysis (apart from sophist attacks).

If you feel that a gravity-driven collapse can provide the energy input to account for this pulverization, we wait in great anticipation for your physics / mathematical calculations to show how such effects can be accomplished through a gravity-driven 'collapse'.

Your 'hero', Schneibster tried, and failed miserably. Let's see a "Civil/Structural Engineer" do better? biggrin.gif

OpelGT73
QUOTE (Foxx+Nov 18 2005, 04:28 AM)
Well, Hoffman has offered some quantitative numbers regarding this pulverization aspect. Real numbers , not just postulated speculations. Although you mock Hoffmans calcs, I do not see you offering any alternative calculations, nor any mathematics theory/ equation to refute his analysis (apart from sophist attacks).

If you feel that a gravity-driven collapse can provide the energy input to account for this pulverization, we wait in great anticipation for your physics / mathematical calculations to show how such effects can be accomplished through a gravity-driven 'collapse'.

Your 'hero', Schneibster tried, and failed miserably. Let's see a "Civil/Structural Engineer" do better? biggrin.gif

Can you give me a link to these quantiative numbers and or analysis?


Foxx
QUOTE
Originally posted by Schneibster
Granted, however, that that would be considerably easier to do if people would just say, "I don't understand why you think that.." instead of calling me a liar.


Sorry, buddy... I don't mean to personalize the issue. Nevertheless, anyone who supports the NIST lies and 'smoke & mirrors' is no better than them. If you support / attempt to defend their lies - in my mind, you are no better than them. If you support a lie, you ARE a liar.

NIST has been proven to be lying in at least one aspect regarding this investigation. (See the evidence presented previously in this thread re: 'NIST Caught Trying to Bury Evidence'}.

That fact doesn't provide me with a lot of 'confidence' in the rest of what they are saying.

Nevertheless, it seems that some are quite willing/ gullible to disregard their lies and blindly accept the rest of their speculative postulations as 'gospel'.

I suggest you get a life, and wake up to reality.

Cheers ... ('civil/structural engineer' / alter/ego of the Schneibster & friends).



OpelGT73
I'm sorry maybe I missed something. But would you please point out to me where NIST lies?


Foxx
QUOTE
Opel tada tada
Can you give me a link to these quantitative numbers and or analysis?


I thought you have been studying these questions for the past 4 years? Hoffmans calcs...

http://911research.wtc7.net/papers/dustvolume/volumev3.html

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Opel tada tada
Can you give me a link to these quantitative numbers and or analysis?


I thought you have been studying these questions for the past 4 years? Hoffmans calcs...

http://911research.wtc7.net/papers/dustvolume/volumev3.html

I'm sorry maybe I missed something. But would you please point out to me where NIST lies?



Re: NIST lies... yep, you are pretty new to this thread (and this investigation).

We have been discussing this issue for a number of pages. NIST, (and their supporters) claim "No Steel was Recovered from WTC 7". This is a provable lie from numerous other official documents which clearly state that steel samples from WTC 7 were 'recovered & studied'.

Only those 'new' to this investigation will believe this outright LIE. All the relevant links are provided in my previous post 'NIST Caught Trying to Bury Evidence'.


OpelGT73
asdf
OpelGT73
QUOTE (Foxx+Nov 18 2005, 05:08 AM)
QUOTE
Opel tada tada
Can you give me a link to these quantitative numbers and or analysis?


I thought you have been studying these questions for the past 4 years? Hoffmans calcs...

http://911research.wtc7.net/papers/dustvolume/volumev3.html

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Opel tada tada
Can you give me a link to these quantitative numbers and or analysis?


I thought you have been studying these questions for the past 4 years? Hoffmans calcs...

http://911research.wtc7.net/papers/dustvolume/volumev3.html

I'm sorry maybe I missed something. But would you please point out to me where NIST lies?



Re: NIST lies... yep, you are pretty new to this thread (and this investigation).

We have been discussing this issue for a number of pages. NIST, (and their supporters) claim "No Steel was Recovered from WTC 7". This is a provable lie from numerous other official documents which clearly state that steel samples from WTC 7 were 'recovered & studied'.

Only those 'new' to this investigation will believe this outright LIE. All the relevant links are provided in my previous post 'NIST Caught Trying to Bury Evidence'.

Ok I'll read that and get back to you tomorrow.

QUOTE

Re: NIST lies... yep, you are pretty new to this thread (and this investigation).


The NIST report I read is fairly recent Pub. Sep 2005.

Where do they state that no steel was recovered? I read the NIST report (sep 2005) that they (NIST) had investigated 236 pieces of steel from the site (p. 137 of 298).

Foxx
NIST Caught Trying to 'Bury Evidence'

Nist claims in it's NIST NCSTAR 1-3 report (page xliv )
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/NIST_1_3_008.html
that...

QUOTE
E.6 Structural Steel in WTC ...

quote: "No steel was recovered from WTC 7"




Folks, we [b]KNOW
that this is a bold-faced LIE. They are exposed in this 'cover-up' by other federal documents which flatly state that WTC 7 steel was in fact collected...

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
E.6 Structural Steel in WTC ...

quote: "No steel was recovered from WTC 7"




Folks, we [b]KNOW that this is a bold-faced LIE. They are exposed in this 'cover-up' by other federal documents which flatly state that WTC 7 steel was in fact collected...

WTC steel data collection efforts were undertaken by the Building Performance Study (BPS) Team and the Structural Engineers Association of New York (SEAoNY) to identify significant steel pieces from WTC 1, 2, 5, and 7 for further study

Page D1

FEMA - http://www.house.gov/science/hot/wtc/wtc-r.../WTC_apndxD.pdf


and here...

QUOTE
Two structural steel members with unusual erosion patterns were observed in the WTC debris field. The first appeared to be from WTC 7 and the second from either WTC 1 or WTC 2. Samples were taken from these beams and labelled Sample 1 and sample 2, respectively. A mettallurgical examination was conducted.

C.2 Sample 1 (from WTC 7)
Several regions in the section of the beam shown in Figures C-1 and C-2 were examined to determine microstructural changes that occured in the A36 structural steel as a result of the events of September 11, 2001, and the subsequent fires. Although the exact location of this beam in the building was not known, the severe erosion found in several beams warranted further consideration.


Source: FEMA Metallurgical Report
http://www.fema.gov/pdf/library/fema403_apc.pdf


and here...

The following article appears in the journal JOM, 53 (12) (2001), pp. 18......

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Two structural steel members with unusual erosion patterns were observed in the WTC debris field. The first appeared to be from WTC 7 and the second from either WTC 1 or WTC 2. Samples were taken from these beams and labelled Sample 1 and sample 2, respectively. A mettallurgical examination was conducted.

C.2 Sample 1 (from WTC 7)
Several regions in the section of the beam shown in Figures C-1 and C-2 were examined to determine microstructural changes that occured in the A36 structural steel as a result of the events of September 11, 2001, and the subsequent fires. Although the exact location of this beam in the building was not known, the severe erosion found in several beams warranted further consideration.


Source: FEMA Metallurgical Report
http://www.fema.gov/pdf/library/fema403_apc.pdf


and here...

The following article appears in the journal JOM, 53 (12) (2001), pp. 18......

An Initial Microstructural Analysis of A36 Steel from WTC Building 7

J.R. Barnett, R.R. Biederman, and R.D. Sisson, Jr.

A section of an A36 wide flange beam retrieved from the collapsed World Trade Center Building 7 was examined to determine changes in the steel microstructure as a result of the terrorist attack on September 11, 2001. This building was not one of the original buildings attacked but it indirectly suffered severe damage and eventually collapsed. While the exact location of this beam could not be determined, the unexpected erosion of the steel found in this beam warranted a study of microstructural changes that occurred in this steel. Examination of other sections in this beam is underway.

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/...erman-0112.html 


-------------------

QUOTE
The FEMA report calls for further metallurgic investigations, and Barnett, Biederman and Sisson hope that WPI will obtain NIST funding and access to more samples.

http://www.wpi.edu/News/Transformations/20...ring/steel.html 


-------------

Did Barnett and Biederman recieve this further funding and additional samples? NO! NIST denied their application.

Now, it has become abundantly clear that they are trying to 'bury this evidence' from WTC 7.

First, in denying further study... and secondly, by attempting to rewrite history, by claiming now that 'no steel was recovered from WTC 7'.



metamars
QUOTE
QUOTE
Flatly asserting that "global collapse" inevitably follows "collapse initiation,"

It is obvious from the rough calculations by Bazant-Zhou that once the collapse has been initiated there is no way the underlying structure would stand, hence “global collapse” IS inevitable.


I don't have time for a longer response now, but this sentence is particularly disappointing.

It's obvious to me that if Bazant-Zhou has misapplied their "elastic dynamic analysis", than any conclusion drawn from such an analysis is useless.

Since you have a logical turn of mind, please state clearly whether or not you agree with this last sentence.

If it turns out that you do agree, then it should also be obvious why I want to further explore BZ's analytic technique. I have asked for references regarding expositions of same, which presumably construction engineers should be able to supply with a lot less effort than other technical types. Furthermore, anybody who spends any significant time on a board like this will soon realize that posters are regularly asked to back up their statements with references. Thus, my request is not unusual.

I now amplify my request, to also ask for references re experimental verification of "elastic dynamic analysis", in situations that the construction engineering community has good reason to believe are relevant to understanding the collapse of a skyscraper. Since engineers are practical sorts, they surely wouldn't want to build a multi-billion dollar building, relying on equations that are untested via either physical experiments or computer simulations. They'd certainly look rather foolish in any lawsuits that followed a building collapse after, say, a minor earthquake which registers only 2.0 on the Richter scale, if during the trial they were asked on what basis did you rely on BZ's theories in your designs, especially since nobody has ever shown they were relevant?

To prevent themselves from looking foolish in such a hypothetical scenario, they would, of course, come fully prepared with this information.

What information would they provide to the judge in this hypothetical scenario?

If you think that I or any other disbeliever in the FEMA/NIST tales are going to change our minds based on an appeal to authority alone, you are quite mistaken. Such dubious authorities include the intuition, even the collective intuition, of some construction engineers. Even if they have Ph.D.'s.


I do not ask you or anybody else to disbelieve in the FEMA, et. al. Fairy Tales merely because Professor Steven Jones has stated his belief, after studying the matter, that explosives are a likelier hypothesis. That would be an appeal to authority that is contrary to good science and a serious search for truth.

Please show me the same respect.

Even Steven Jones does not ask this of you or anybody else, which is why he is asking for an investigation. Clearly, he also does not consider BZ's claims unassailable. Thus, I can promise you that any information re BZ that you post on this forum, I will forward to Dr. Jones (after I have checked it out), so that he can also benefit from your sincere efforts to promote the understanding of the phenomena of the WTC collapses.


============================================

Regarding intuition as a basis for claiming truth:
( from http://agecon2.tamu.edu/people/faculty/dav...rge/quotes.html )

emphasis mine

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
QUOTE
Flatly asserting that "global collapse" inevitably follows "collapse initiation,"

It is obvious from the rough calculations by Bazant-Zhou that once the collapse has been initiated there is no way the underlying structure would stand, hence “global collapse” IS inevitable.


I don't have time for a longer response now, but this sentence is particularly disappointing.

It's obvious to me that if Bazant-Zhou has misapplied their "elastic dynamic analysis", than any conclusion drawn from such an analysis is useless.

Since you have a logical turn of mind, please state clearly whether or not you agree with this last sentence.

If it turns out that you do agree, then it should also be obvious why I want to further explore BZ's analytic technique. I have asked for references regarding expositions of same, which presumably construction engineers should be able to supply with a lot less effort than other technical types. Furthermore, anybody who spends any significant time on a board like this will soon realize that posters are regularly asked to back up their statements with references. Thus, my request is not unusual.

I now amplify my request, to also ask for references re experimental verification of "elastic dynamic analysis", in situations that the construction engineering community has good reason to believe are relevant to understanding the collapse of a skyscraper. Since engineers are practical sorts, they surely wouldn't want to build a multi-billion dollar building, relying on equations that are untested via either physical experiments or computer simulations. They'd certainly look rather foolish in any lawsuits that followed a building collapse after, say, a minor earthquake which registers only 2.0 on the Richter scale, if during the trial they were asked on what basis did you rely on BZ's theories in your designs, especially since nobody has ever shown they were relevant?

To prevent themselves from looking foolish in such a hypothetical scenario, they would, of course, come fully prepared with this information.

What information would they provide to the judge in this hypothetical scenario?

If you think that I or any other disbeliever in the FEMA/NIST tales are going to change our minds based on an appeal to authority alone, you are quite mistaken. Such dubious authorities include the intuition, even the collective intuition, of some construction engineers. Even if they have Ph.D.'s.


I do not ask you or anybody else to disbelieve in the FEMA, et. al. Fairy Tales merely because Professor Steven Jones has stated his belief, after studying the matter, that explosives are a likelier hypothesis. That would be an appeal to authority that is contrary to good science and a serious search for truth.

Please show me the same respect.

Even Steven Jones does not ask this of you or anybody else, which is why he is asking for an investigation. Clearly, he also does not consider BZ's claims unassailable. Thus, I can promise you that any information re BZ that you post on this forum, I will forward to Dr. Jones (after I have checked it out), so that he can also benefit from your sincere efforts to promote the understanding of the phenomena of the WTC collapses.


============================================

Regarding intuition as a basis for claiming truth:
( from http://agecon2.tamu.edu/people/faculty/dav...rge/quotes.html )

emphasis mine

21) Quote:        "…intuition cannot give us exactness, nor ever certainty, and this has been recognized more and more."

From"              Henri Poincare'

Source:            Science and Methods (p. 123)

Context:          Logic vs. intuition



35) Quote:        "Intuition (male, female or mathematical) has been greatly overrated.  Intuition is the root of all superstition."

From:              E.T. Bell

Source:            Men of Mathematics  (p. 567)
metamars
QUOTE
BTW - I always notice when I (and others) bring forward factual evidence related to this latest NIST Lie, one of 3 things occur:

1. supporters of the 'official story' go quiet, waiting for the topic to change...

2. supporters of the 'official story' attempt to come up with 'horsepucky' to defend the NIST Liars

3. supporters of the 'official story' flood the thread with spam, hoping the issue will just get lost and buried.


What I've noticed is that Schneibster left the thread, and then re-appeared right around the time that the Steven Jones story broke.

Also, the dude who I challenged to take my calculations to a bona fide physics professor seemed highly resistant, even after claiming to have followed the issue for 4 years. Why, you think he'd be overjoyed at the opportunity to verify his poor opinion of me.

But the "funniest" coincidence is this: Soon after I pointed out to frater p. that he should not let himself be bamboozled by Schneibster:

Nov. 17, 2:57 pm

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
BTW - I always notice when I (and others) bring forward factual evidence related to this latest NIST Lie, one of 3 things occur:

1. supporters of the 'official story' go quiet, waiting for the topic to change...

2. supporters of the 'official story' attempt to come up with 'horsepucky' to defend the NIST Liars

3. supporters of the 'official story' flood the thread with spam, hoping the issue will just get lost and buried.


What I've noticed is that Schneibster left the thread, and then re-appeared right around the time that the Steven Jones story broke.

Also, the dude who I challenged to take my calculations to a bona fide physics professor seemed highly resistant, even after claiming to have followed the issue for 4 years. Why, you think he'd be overjoyed at the opportunity to verify his poor opinion of me.

But the "funniest" coincidence is this: Soon after I pointed out to frater p. that he should not let himself be bamboozled by Schneibster:

Nov. 17, 2:57 pm



MY SUGGESTION

Print out Schneibsters "physics and math" WTC 7 arguments, and show them to a couple of physicists and engineers at your local state university. I believe the engineers will tell you, straight off the bat, that this is much more of an engineering problem than a physics problem*

I believe the physicists will tell you, straight off the bat, that Schneibster's WTC 7 "physics and math" arguments aren't on the piece of paper you give them, even if some hand-waving, qualitative arguments are. Physics is, after all, a quantitative science. Since I presume that you lack Schneibster's capacity to continue making assertions even after they've been shown to be false, I suggest that you humbly ask "Are you sure?"

Please take notes during your excursion to the university, so that everything is fresh in your mind, and quite accurate. Then, come back here and post your findings. I think everybody will be at least mildly interested, both pro and con.





this post was soon followed, , at Nov 17 2005, 07:31 PM, by OpelGt73's not so grand entrance - less than 5 hours later.

Searching on his name shows that he had never posted before.


And what is OpelGt73's profession? Why, he's not just a civil engineer, he's a construction engineer!


My, my, what a coincidence! Oh, the intrigues at physorg.com! It's enough to make you think that, well, . . . , well, ..., w-e-e-e-e-el-l-l-l , let's not go there. cool.gif


Then there's other posts, by "believers" (in demolition), that I can't help but question. The pictures of a dead Mussolini just spring to mind. Additionally, some "believers" come across as rather inarticulate and irrational.

Oh, heck, LET'S GO THERE.

SAY, YOU DON'T THINK ANYBODY WOULD BE DELIBERATELY MANIPULATING THE BOARD TO MAKE DIS-BELIEVERS IN THE FEMA FAIRY TALE LOOK DISREPUTABLE, DO YOU?

Just a thought....
frater plecticus
More than 80,000 held by US since 9/11 attacks

· Growing worries over treatment of prisoners
· Fury in Europe over secret CIA terror suspect flights

Suzanne Goldenberg in Washington
Friday November 18, 2005
The Guardian

QUOTE
.The US has detained more than 80,000 people in facilities from Afghanistan to Cuba since the attacks on the World Trade Centre four years ago, the Pentagon said yesterday The disclosure comes at a time of growing unease about Washington's treatment of prisoners in its "war on terror" and Europe's unknowing help in the CIA's practice of rendition.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/st...1645305,00.html

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
.The US has detained more than 80,000 people in facilities from Afghanistan to Cuba since the attacks on the World Trade Centre four years ago, the Pentagon said yesterday The disclosure comes at a time of growing unease about Washington's treatment of prisoners in its "war on terror" and Europe's unknowing help in the CIA's practice of rendition.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/st...1645305,00.html

Pressure continues to mount for the Pentagon allow the Able Danger witnesses to testify. Last Friday, Weldon told CNN's Lou Dobbs he had secured 100 signatures from members of Congress calling upon Secretary Rumsfeld to allow the testimony of Able Danger team members. By Wednesday afternoon there were a total 150 signatories, including 90 Republicans and 60 Democrats. By 7 p.m., a press release posted on Congressman Weldon's website asserted that 202 members had signed.

Signatories include Rep. Ike Skelton (D-MO), Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-OH), Ranking Democrat on the House Select Committee on Inteliigence Jane Harmon (D-CA) and Katherine Harris (R-FL).
Guest
Why didn't any of the statements describing explosions before the towers came down make it into the 9/11 Commissions final report. sad.gif

QUOTE
NY Times & Victims Family FOIA Request making Suppressed Firemen Statements public:

A rich vein of city records from Sept. 11, including more than 12,000 pages of oral histories rendered in the voices of 503 firefighters, paramedics, and emergency medical technicians, was made public 8/12/05.

http://www.flcv.com/firemen.html



Here's just a sample of witness statements from the link above:


PARAMEDIC DANIEL RIVERA

WTC2

Q. WHAT DID YOU HEAR? WHAT DID YOU SEE? A. It was a frigging noise at first. At first I thought it was a professional demolition, where they set the charges on certain floors and then you hear Pop Pop Pop Pop. That’s exactly what I thought it was when I heard that frigging noise. That’s when I saw the building coming down.


FIREFIGHTER FRANK SWEENEY

WTC2

I hear what sounded like firecrackers and a low rumble. I look up, and the south tower – I could see the top part of the siding overlapping the bottom side of the siding.


DEPUTY COMMISSIONER THOMAS FlTZPATRlCK FDNY

We looked up at the building straight up, we were that close. All we saw was a puff of smoke coming from about 2 thirds of the way up. Some people thought it was an explosion. My initial reaction was that this was exactly the way it looks when they show you those implosions on TV.


Stephen Gregory , Assistant Commissioner (F.D.N.Y.) flashes, explosions p 14

...I thought that when I looked in the direction of the Trade Center before it came down, before No. 2 came down, that I saw low-level flashes. In my conversation with Lieutenant Evangelista, never mentioning this to him, he questioned me and asked me if I saw low-level flashes in front of the building, and I agreed with him because I thought -- at that time I didn't know what it was. I mean, it could have been as a result of the building collapsing, things exploding, but I saw a flash flash flash and then it looked like the building came down.

Q. Was that on the lower level of the building or up where the fire was?
A. No, the lower level of the building. You know like when they demolish a building, how when they blow up a building, when it falls down? That's what I thought I saw. And I didn't broach the topic to him, but he asked me. He said I don't know if I'm crazy,


Edward Cachia FDNY WTC2 explosions before collapse

As my officer and I were looking at the south tower, it just gave. It actually gave at a
lower floor, not the floor where the plane hit, because we originally had thought there was like an internal detonation explosives because it went in succession, boom, boom, boom, boom, and then the tower came down.



There are several witness reports like those. Why didn't the 9/11 Commission consider the possibility that explosives may have been planted in the buildings? It's difficult for me to wrap my mind around the idea that the US government is intentionally covering up what happened, but the witness statements and other evidence suggest there is a massive cover-up taking place. sad.gif
Guest_Temp
Cover-up as in responsible? It most certainly was not a bunch of coke snorting Islamists on a suicide misssion sans Korans and flight instruction manuals, the two most important items, one would imagine.

When USA awakes from it's "dreamtime denial", we might just see the beginnings of a truly just world.

a_ht
And the fact that 2 jetliners piloted by suicide monger islamist extremists crashed into the WTC during the same day as the WTC was detonated was a mere coincidence? Oh right, the pilots were CIA agents "in disgize". We know that because the sits werent full of passengers. And because the owner of the WTC complex said "pull it". Which could not have meant anything else than pull the trigger, because firefighters do not employ that term, only demolition crew do. And not to mention that he said "pull it" on nationnal TV. One would think he would try to hide it... Maybe he really wants to come forward but the president treathened to do "things" to him if he didnt. We know that because the president mentionned he saw the first plane hit the tower on TV; impossible since we are too lazy to look trough the tapes and see if that event was captured, so we assume it wasn't. Or maybe he was just mistaking; NO since he said it on two occasion... as if Bush learns from his mistakes...

And to top it all off, we have Andrew's brilliant use of basic physics.
Oh Really
NO, it was done by MURDER INC,. aka the USA. The Media was given a bunch of fake footage by the Pentagon.

http://www.cnn.com/video/us/2001/09/12/fir...hits.gp.med.ram

http://www.positiontoknow.com/S-11/vid/wtc2-p.mpeg
Schneibster
QUOTE (Faux+)
Well, Hoffman has offered some quantitative numbers regarding this pulverization aspect. Real numbers , not just postulated speculations. Although you mock Hoffmans calcs, I do not see you offering any alternative calculations, nor any mathematics theory/ equation to refute his analysis (apart from sophist attacks).
I went through it point by point, and you didn't accept it. What's the point? Why should anyone dance further to your tune? You'll just say they're "lying" because you can't accept the truth.
adoucette
QUOTE (Oh Really+Nov 18 2005, 04:31 PM)
NO, it was done by MURDER INC,. aka the USA. The Media was given a bunch of fake footage by the Pentagon.

http://www.cnn.com/video/us/2001/09/12/fir...hits.gp.med.ram

http://www.positiontoknow.com/S-11/vid/wtc2-p.mpeg

Fake footage???

So according to you HIJACKED PLANES DIDN'T hit the WTC Towers?

What did?

Arthur
adoucette
QUOTE (Guest+Nov 18 2005, 08:52 AM)


There are several witness reports like those. Why didn't the 9/11 Commission consider the possibility that explosives may have been planted in the buildings? It's difficult for me to wrap my mind around the idea that the US government is intentionally covering up what happened, but the witness statements and other evidence suggest there is a massive cover-up taking place. sad.gif

The issue is simply that the collapse of the building WOULD naturally create "explosive" sounds.

When strong materials under extreme tension break they tend to do so loudly.

Recently I was watching the testing to destruction of the 767 wing. When it finally let go, there was a LOUD explosion. Of course only pressure was used to bend the wing until it broke, no explosives.

If you only HEARD this test, I suspect you would SWEAR that explosives had been used.

Arthur
Foxx
QUOTE
Originally posted by SteveA
Schneibster... Do YOU have an explanation of the WTC 7 Collapse ???


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Originally posted by SteveA
Schneibster... Do YOU have an explanation of the WTC 7 Collapse ???


Replies posted by Schneibster
You mean other than the 20-story hole in the side facing the WTC towers?...

I really would like to see a picture of the south face of the building with that hole in it, or with it absent and giving the lie to the firemen's accounts.


More NIST Shenanigans...

User posted image

Above is a picture from the NIST draft WTC 7 report.
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/WTC%20Part%20IIC%...pse%20Final.pdf
(from pg 17)


Below is a schematic of how NIST portrays the damage to the south face of WTC 7. Note the extent of damage to the southwest corner in the diagram. (pg 20 of the above report)


Now note the alleged large gaping hole in the center of the south face, (which NIST tells us was done by falling debris from WTC 1).


NIST tells us that there was a... "large debris hole near center around 14th floor". Looking at the photo above we can see the southwest corner damage. We know that; that damage extended to the 18th floor. (page 15 of the above report)


The NIST-alleged massive center damage should clearly be visible in the above photo (allegedly being only 4 floors below the height of the southwest corner damage).


Can you find the alleged damage which NIST indicates is in the center of the south face?

User posted image

FEMA told us ...


"The degree of impact damage to the south facade could not be documented. However damage was evident from review of photographs and video records"


http://www.fema.gov/pdf/library/fema403_ch5.pdf


On Aug 21 2002 Dr. Shyam Sunder (of NIST) put out a special call for...


"...photograhic and video images that could help us better document the initial damage and subsequent fire growth and spread in the WTC towers and WTC 7. We are especially interested in WTC 7 and views of the South and West faces of the towers. Those who are aware of or who are in possession of such materials are encouraged to contact us."


http://wtc.nist.gov/media/sunderremarks.htm


It seems no one has come forward, since 2002 with any better photographs of the South face of WTC 7 than the one above which shows only southwest corner damage and no center damage as indicated by the NIST schematic in their 2005 document .


Where does NIST get the idea that there was massive damage to the center of the south face of WTC 7 ?


Apparently NIST claims one source is the testimonial evidence provided by firefighters on the scene.


According to 'Firehouse.com', (a relatively new fire-related magazine)... Captain Chris Boyle was there, and relates his story in an interview format...


" We were told to go to Greenwich and Vesey and see what's going on. So we go there and on the north and east side of 7 it didn't look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 and there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fires on several floors."


http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/mag...e/gz/boyle.html


It seems obvious that Captain Boyle was referring to the southwest corner damage, because that is the only damage apparent in the NIST photo which extends to a height of 18 - 20 stories.


I have not been able to find any photos or videos of the south face of WTC 7, nor any firefighter testimony which supports the idea of massive damage to the center of the south face as purported in the NIST schematic of alleged impact damage.

Apart from NIST providing factual evidence to support their story that there was massive damage to the center of the south face of WTC 7, I would have to conclude that their report is in error. Is NIST claiming that; it is this 'alleged' (apparently non-existent) damage which was contributory to the collapse of WTC 7 ?


adoucette
QUOTE (frater plecticus+Nov 18 2005, 08:31 AM)
More than 80,000 held by US since 9/11 attacks

· Growing worries over treatment of prisoners
· Fury in Europe over secret CIA terror suspect flights

Suzanne Goldenberg in Washington
Friday November 18, 2005
The Guardian

QUOTE
.The US has detained more than 80,000 people in facilities from Afghanistan to Cuba since the attacks on the World Trade Centre four years ago, the Pentagon said yesterday The disclosure comes at a time of growing unease about Washington's treatment of prisoners in its "war on terror" and Europe's unknowing help in the CIA's practice of rendition.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/st...1645305,00.html

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
.The US has detained more than 80,000 people in facilities from Afghanistan to Cuba since the attacks on the World Trade Centre four years ago, the Pentagon said yesterday The disclosure comes at a time of growing unease about Washington's treatment of prisoners in its "war on terror" and Europe's unknowing help in the CIA's practice of rendition.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/st...1645305,00.html

Pressure continues to mount for the Pentagon allow the Able Danger witnesses to testify. Last Friday, Weldon told CNN's Lou Dobbs he had secured 100 signatures from members of Congress calling upon Secretary Rumsfeld to allow the testimony of Able Danger team members. By Wednesday afternoon there were a total 150 signatories, including 90 Republicans and 60 Democrats. By 7 p.m., a press release posted on Congressman Weldon's website asserted that 202 members had signed.

Signatories include Rep. Ike Skelton (D-MO), Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-OH), Ranking Democrat on the House Select Committee on Inteliigence Jane Harmon (D-CA) and Katherine Harris (R-FL).

Detained is not the same as kept imprisoned.

As the article points out the number in prison is ~14,000

Most of which are in Iraq.

However, the 13,800 or so in Iraq amounts to 5/100ths of a percent of the population.

Hardly what you would call a massive roundup.

Put it in perspective, if we incarcerated IRAQIs at the same rate of incarceration in the US that would be ~ 126,000 Iraqis.

Since presumably we are only after terrorists in Iraq, I'd say ~10% of the rate of US incarceration for all crimes is a reasonable number.

Arthur
adoucette
QUOTE (Andrew Johnson+Sep 30 2005, 08:09 AM)
Dear All,

I invite everyone reading this to disprove basic Physics and Chemistry I (and many others) have presented regarding the collapse of the World Trade Centre towers.

Please look at this:

http://www.checktheevidence.com/911/Collap...of%20Towers.swf

Then consider if NIST is/are correct http://www.physorg.com/news3686.html.

[[ Due to website access problems, I have mirrored this file here]]:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/ad.johnson/Co...of%20Towers.swf
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/andrew.johnso...of%20Towers.swf

People can disagree with me for sure, but please point out the error in my Physics if you are going to do so.

Thanks for reading.

Andrew Johnson
UK

I went back to the original start of this thread, to see, if based upon what has been posted along with the final report from NIST, if the original document holds up.

It appears to me that it is in serious need of update.

QUOTE
there were 47 ENORMOUS interior columns


Yes, but just 4 corner columns held up 1/2 of the Gravity Load.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
there were 47 ENORMOUS interior columns


Yes, but just 4 corner columns held up 1/2 of the Gravity Load.

reinforced concrete column runs vertically through the tower


No reinforced concrete columns were used

Also quite a few of these columns were severed or severely damaged by the impact and almost all were stripped of the critical insulation.

The STRIPPING OF THE INSULATION from the steel structure was probably the SINGLE most important reason why the structure failed, yet its importance is NOT referenced in the 'report' at all. NIST itself says that if the insulation had not been stripped the towers would probably not have collapsed.

QUOTE
the official story says that an aircraft collision caused the fires that melted the steel


The report does not state that any steel was melted, in fact the temps were modeled and they reached a max many hundred degrees C below the melting point of steel. NIST like other posters also point out that the majority of the fire was from combustible materials within the towers and the jet. The fuel's impact was to create a wide ranging fire as opposed to the point set fires that are more typical of a building fire.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
the official story says that an aircraft collision caused the fires that melted the steel


The report does not state that any steel was melted, in fact the temps were modeled and they reached a max many hundred degrees C below the melting point of steel. NIST like other posters also point out that the majority of the fire was from combustible materials within the towers and the jet. The fuel's impact was to create a wide ranging fire as opposed to the point set fires that are more typical of a building fire.

each floor collapsed onto the next and the increasing weight of floors caused a catastrophic structural failure


No, the internal structure continually weakened but the hat truss redistributed loads until finally a collapse occurred at the impact floor area and the entire building structure ABOVE the collapse then fell, its KINETIC energy caused the global collapse. The minimal physical description within the 'report' ignores this effect entirely.

QUOTE
the towers underwent freefall collapse


No, the videos clearly show that debris in free fall outside the tower are falling much faster than the tower itself. There is no accurate accounting for the EXACT time that the towers took to fall, the last seconds being obscured by the dust.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
the towers underwent freefall collapse


No, the videos clearly show that debris in free fall outside the tower are falling much faster than the tower itself. There is no accurate accounting for the EXACT time that the towers took to fall, the last seconds being obscured by the dust.

a great deal of the building material was pulverized to powder


So far only thing shown on this is samples collected at some distance from the collapse, nothing has been quantitatively shown as to how much was pulverized and to what degree. One WOULD expect that as one got away from the collapse that particle size would decrease, to use these particle sizes to extrapolate back to the main collapse has no rational basis.

QUOTE
witness accounts of explosions


There are no witness accounts of CHEMICAL EXPLOSIONS. There are accounts of LOUD NOISES, which one would expect during the collapse.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
witness accounts of explosions


There are no witness accounts of CHEMICAL EXPLOSIONS. There are accounts of LOUD NOISES, which one would expect during the collapse.

Fireman's accounts of extinguished fires before collapse


Which is contradicted by the videos of the towers at the time of the collapse. Also from the NIST report we learned that Fireman in WTC 1 got no higher than the 50s and in WTC 2 got no higher than the 78th floor. So what they reported was not germane.


Andrew ends with its time to wake up folks,

Actually its time to update your presentation Andrew.


Arthur




Schneibster
Here you go, Opel:

1. The assertion has been repeatedly made that the towers "fell at 'near free-fall' speeds." Video evidence shows that the falls took somewhere between twelve and fifteen seconds. I suggest 9/11 Research has a pretty good collection of such videos and invite anyone with the courage to question their assumptions to examine these videos and see what conclusion they come to, and then examine the following analysis:

Height of the WTC towers: 417m (Source: Wikipedia's article on the World Trade Center, sidebar on the right (for the totally impaired, I have used the facilities of this site to make a link out of the words, "Wikipedia's article" in the previous sentence, hover over those words and right-click on them and you will see the article)).

Acceleration of gravity: 9.80665m/s² (Source: Wikipedia's article on the standard gee, which is taken from the average acceleration of gravity on Earth).

Equation of motion:
t = √(2d/a) Eq. 1
Where,
t is the time taken to move over the distance,
a is the constant acceleration applied over the distance, and
d is the distance.
In natural language, the time taken to fall a distance, for a falling object that starts from rest and is subject to a constant acceleration, is equal to the square root of the quantity, twice the distance divided by the acceleration.
Derivation:
a. Definition of acceleration:
a = (v₂ - v₁)/t Eq. 2
Where,
a is acceleration,
v₁ is the initial velocity of the object,
v₂ is the final velocity of the object, and
t is the time interval between the measurement of the initial and final velocities.
In natural language, the acceleration is equal to the initial velocity subtracted from the final velocity (i.e. the change in velocity) divided by the time.
b. Definition of average velocity:
v = (v₁ + v₂)/2 Eq. 3
Where,
v is the average velocity,
v₁ is the initial velocity, and
v₂ is the final velocity.
In natural language, the average velocity is equal to the sum of the initial and final velocities divided by two.
c. Second definition of average velocity:
v = d/t Eq. 4
Where,
v is the average velocity,
d is the distance, and
t is the time.
In natural language, the average velocity is equal to the distance moved divided by the time to move that distance.
d. Substituting 0 for the initial velocity in Eq. 3:
v = (0 + v₂)/2 Eq. 3a
Therefore,
v = v₂/2 Eq. 3b
In natural language, the average velocity of a falling body beginning from rest (velocity zero) is half the final velocity.
e. Substituting Eq. 3b for the velocity in Eq. 4:
v₂/2 = d/t Eq. 5
Rearranging,
v₂ = 2d/t Eq. 5a
In natural language, the final velocity of a falling body beginning from rest is twice the distance divided by the time.
f. Substituting 0 for the initial velocity in Eq. 2:
a = (v₂ - 0)/t Eq. 2a
Therefore,
a = v₂/t Eq. 2b
In natural language, the acceleration of a falling body beginning from rest is the final velocity divided by the time.
g. Substituting Eq. 5a into Eq. 2b:
a = (2d/t)/t Eq. 6
Therefore,
a = 2d/t² Eq. 6a
Rearranging,
t² = 2d/a Eq. 6b
And finally,
t = √(2d/a) Eq. 6c
Since Eq. 6c is the same as Eq. 1, we see that this is the correct equation to use to calculate the time taken to fall a distance, from a standing start, under a constant acceleration; in other words, if the acceleration is the acceleration of gravity and the object begins from rest, then this equation will give the time it takes to fall, otherwise known as the free-fall time.

Substituting the values above for d and t, we get:
t = √((2 x 417m)/9.80665m/s²)
t = √(834m/9.80665m/s²)
t = √85.04433216235921543034573478201s²
t = 9.2219483929568384583858444860057s
This value is slightly less than the 9.23s I calculated earlier using the figures of 9.80665m/s² and 418m; I am using the figures derived from Wikipedia in order to be precise. If you plug those figures in, you will get 9.23s. With one hundredth of a second's difference, which amounts to an accuracy of just over 1/10 of a percent. This is of little consequence, but feel free to use 9.23s if you wish. The value should be truncated, unless it is to be used in further calculations, because it is far beyond the likely accuracy of the height given; following convention, that value is three significant figures with a maximum error of +/- 1 meter.

We see that this is substantially less than the figure that we can derive for the fall by observing the videos; the most conservative estimate is that it is three seconds less, and the least conservative five. To find how much farther an object in free fall could have fallen in those additional times, we merely rearrange the equation (into it's more familiar form, BTW, solving for distance):
d = at²/2 Eq. 7
Substituting twelve seconds, we get
d = ((9.80665m/s² x 144)/2) = 706.0788m
Substituting fifteen seconds, we get
d = ((9.80665m/s² x 225)/2) = 1103.248125m
So we conclude that the building could have fallen somewhere between one and three-quarters its own height to over two and a half times its own height in the allotted time.

Expressing the difference in terms of time rather than distance, we find that it took somewhere between 22% and 53% longer than free-fall.

So, either way, "near free-fall" is incorrect, according to basic physics.

2. The assertion has been repeatedly made that there was not enough energy to pulverize all the concrete in the towers. This assertion is based on FEMA's calculations (for which they have not given derivations) that the potential energy in the buildings was 4 x 10¹¹J. Not being satisfied with this figure, first because (although potential and kinetic energy should be the same), I have no idea how they derived it, and second because my "seat-of-the-pants" estimate gives a higher figure, I did some research and determined the following fact:
The total mass of each tower was 450,000 metric tonnes. (Source: this article which gives four links to secondary sources that all say the same thing, within their limits of accuracy.)

Now, my first suspicion was that FEMA had failed to account for the contents of the towers in their calculations. So I made an estimate of those contents; rather than repeat that here, I will source that estimate. This document is a review of structural requirements for various types of buildings; on the third line, it gives the design requirements for office space as 50 pounds per square foot (psf). This site states that, "Typical floor-load capacity for an office building is about 50 to 75 pounds per square foot..." (follow the link (just a reminder, I have used this site's facilities to include it in the words, "This site," in the previous sentence) and search for the word, "load"). This document, on page 3 in Table 3, gives live load design requirements of 50 pounds per square foot for office space. I think we are safe concluding that this is the average designed load limits for office space.

So what were the design factors of the WTC towers? This page from 9/11 Research gives figures of from 75 to 150 pounds per square foot. (Please note: I am sourcing this paper for ONE REASON ONLY, and that is to show the designed live load carrying capacity of the WTC towers. Do not bother using material from this paper to attempt to refute that; it is stated there in black and white. You are free to use it to try to disprove my calculations here, but the figures are, again, there in black and white, for anyone to read.) Search on the phrase, "floor live load ratings," and you will find a table that goes floor-by-floor. Then there is this which, although highly critical of the FEMA investigation's early report, nevertheless does not dispute the figure of 50-100 pounds per square foot; here is the original report so that you can verify that Serendipity has not altered it.

OK, so how much loading was there, actually? FEMA has estimated this load at 25% of the design limit of 55 pounds per square foot (follow the link and have a look at page 45). This is an EXTREMELY conservative estimate, and furthermore does not take into account the greater loading of the mechanical floors. We will take this VERY conservative estimate of 13 psf, then, and use it.

How much actual office space was there on a single floor of the WTC? MSN Encarta estimates it at 9 million square feet for both towers- about 4.5 million per tower. Divided by 110 floors, this is about 40,000 square feet per floor. Great Buildings gives an estimate of 40,000 square feet per floor, quoting from Architects on Architecture: New Directions in America, p194-195, by Paul Heyer, Van Nostrand Reinhold Revised edition (September, 1993). Heyer also states that 75% of each floor had been freed for occupancy, and we know that the WTC was 209 feet square, so this yields a more conservative figure of about 33,000 square feet per floor. We'll go with this more conservative figure.

So, multiplying, we get 13 psf * 33,000 sq ft = 429,000 pounds per floor. This includes people, office equipment, partitions, desks, file cabinets, and everything, so there is no need to add more to it to get a rough figure. This is also an extremely conservative figure; we have taken the lowest actual loading figure we can find, and multiplied it by the lowest estimate of the space we can derive. Let me emphasize again, this is EXTREMELY conservative.

OK, now let's derive the total kinetic energy of the fall of the building. First of all, we have 110 stories, and total mass of 450,000 metric tonnes; that gives an estimate of 4090 metric tonnes per floor. Added to this is 429,000 pounds (converting, we get 194.5911267 metric ton; here is a convenient conversion site) for a total of 4285.5 metric tonnes per floor.

OK, now we're going to have to derive the kinetic energy. To do that, we need the final velocity; not the average, mind you, but the final. Rather than use a calculated and therefore potentially inaccurate figure, we'll go back to our height and our acceleration of gravity, and derive it from that. To do this, we'll go to the definition of acceleration:
a = v/t Eq. 8
Where,
a is acceleration,
v is velocity, and
t is time.
In natural language, the acceleration applied is equal to the velocity attained divided by the time to reach that velocity.
Rearranging,
v = at Eq. 8a
Now, we need to define time in terms of distance and acceleration; we don't want to use our earlier calculation of the time, to avoid introducing inaccuracies. So we'll use Eq. 1. Substituting:
v = a(√(2d/a)) Eq.9
The calculation is straightforward:
v = 9.80665m/s² x (√((2 x 417m)/9.80665m/s²)) =
90.436420207790179867929541828687m/s
Rounding, we get 90.4m/s.

We'll use the standard kinetic energy equation:
e = mv²/2 Eq. 10
Where,
e is kinetic energy,
m is mass, and
v is velocity.
In natural language, kinetic energy is half the quantity the mass times the square of the velocity.

Plugging in our figures from above, we get:
e = ((4,285,500kg x (90.436420207790179867929541828687m/s)²)/2) = 17,525,008,205.775J
Now, this is the kinetic energy for the topmost average floor falling from the topmost height. But of course, not all the floors fell from that height; in fact, they fell from different and lesser heights, and therefore had less kinetic energy. This is not the average kinetic energy, but the maximum. Let's do the same calculation for a floor that was halfway down the tower; we can do this simply by reducing the height to half, to derive the velocity, and then using this figure in the kinetic energy equation:
v = a(√(2d/a)) = 9.80665m/s(√((2 x 208.5m)/9.80665m/s²)) = 63.948205995164555515260416192403m/s
e = mv²/2 = ((4,285,500kg x (63.948205995164555515260416192403m/s)²)/2) =
8,762,504,102.8875J

Looking at this, we find that the second figure is exactly half the first. We've found a serendipitous relation: the kinetic energy of a falling object varies directly as the height from which it is dropped. Thus, we know that if something falls from half the height, it has half the kinetic energy; a quarter the height is a quarter the energy, but most importantly, 1/110 the height is 1/110 the energy. Thus, we can divide the kinetic energy by 110 (which, for the mathematically challenged, is the same as multiplying by 1/110) and use one of those for the first floor, two for the second, three for the third, and so forth, until we get to 110 for the 110th floor.

Now, how can we figure the total of 1 through 110? Simple.

Say we take all the whole numbers from 1 to 100. There is a trick that we can use: add 1 to 100, 2 to 99, 3 to 98, and so forth, until we get to adding 50 to 51. Each of these pairs is equal to 101, and there are 50 pairs. (100 items taken by pairs is 50 pairs, IOW.) Thus, the sum of all the numbers from 1 to 100 is 101 x 50 = 5050. Does this work if the difference is not 1? Yes. Let's take all the numbers divisible by 5 between 1 and 100: 5, 10, 15, and so forth. We get 100 and 5, 95 and 10, 90 and 15, and so forth until we get to 55 and 50. Adding these up, we get ten pairs that are 105 each (figure it out for yourself), for a total of 1,050. Feel free to do it the hard way.

So for 110 stories, we get (110 + 1) + (109 + 2)... = (55 + 56); there are 55 pairs, and each sums to 111. That's 6105. The kinetic energy is proportional to the floor number, so we take our maximum figure and divide by the number of floors to get the increment per floor; that gives 159,318,256.41613636363636363636364J per floor. Then we multiply by 6150 to get the total, and that gives 979807276959.23863636363636363636J, rounding, about 980GJ, for the total energy. Nearly a terajoule (a trillion joules).

Now, the FEMA figure was 4 x 10¹¹J; that's 400,000,000,000J, about 400GJ. So we can see that that figure is off by a factor of more than two; twice that would be 800GJ, which is still less than our 980GJ.

Converting to kilowatt-hours (kWh), which is the figure Hoffman uses, at 1J = 1Ws, which implies that 1Wh = 3,600J and 1kWh = 3,600,000J, we get 272,168.68804423295454545454545455kWh, 272,000kWh in round numbers.

So how much concrete will that pulverize? Well, according to Hoffman, 135,000kWh will crush all the concrete in the WTC. I'll take that figure, thank you very much. That means that we have about twice the energy needed to pulverize all the concrete in the whole building. And I'm going to note that that's from the kinetic energy alone; we haven't included anything that burned, neither the jet fuel nor the office contents. This is ONLY the kinetic energy, and it's a kinetic energy figure that we arrived at using VERY conservative numbers.

3.Hoffman estimates that there was not enough energy to drive the pyroclastic clouds.

First of all, I have to point out that Hoffman's figure for the kinetic energy of the collapse, being derived from FEMA's figures, is off by a factor of 2.

Second, Hoffman clearly fails to note that the kinetic energy turns to heat after it crushes the concrete; thus, the energy budget to expand the cloud must include the energy that crushes the concrete. Instead, Hoffman subtracts this energy, as if it just disappears after the concrete is crushed.

Third, Hoffman either assumes that the concrete was heated to over 740C (1020K), a Fahrenheit temperature of over 1,300 degrees, or that the "moisture content" of the concrete "vaporized;" but neither of these could be the case. In the first case, we would have seen the instant ignition of any burnable material that was touched by the cloud, and anyone caught in any portion of it would have been instantly burned alive, and this is not what happened according to the testimentary and photographic evidence. In the second case, unfortunately, the water in concrete is not free water; it chemically combines with the cement that is used to make the concrete (concrete is a mixture of cement and rocks that are bound by the cement, yielding a higher-strength material than the cement alone can make).

Fourth, and most telling, Hoffman neglects to analyze where the enormous amount of energy he details could have come from. His lowest estimate is 2.6 million kWh. This is a vast amount of energy. It is, in fact, 9,360,000,000,000J, 9.36TJ. At 239.0057361 US short tons of TNT equivalent per TJ, this is 2,237 US short tons of TNT equivalent; over TWO KILOTONS. A two-kiloton explosion in the middle of the WTC complex? Check this site out. You can see the overpressure blast effect of a 2kt weapon on the city of San Franciso. Choose "automobile" as the delivery method for the most conservative estimate. Note the panhandle of Golden Gate Park on the left of the picture. Residents will be aware that the panhandle is eight blocks wide; if you don't believe it, call up Mapquest and check for yourself. The area in which buildings would be destroyed by the blast wave is the blue circle. It's almost TEN BLOCKS WIDE. That means that if the energy that Hoffman calculates had been contained in that cloud, it would have knocked over every building within five blocks in every direction! We wouldn't even be discussing how 7 WTC collapsed; it would have been completely destroyed, along with fifteen or twenty other buildings!

Obviously, the actual energy estimate must be much more conservative; 200,000 to 300,000 kWh is a much more reasonable estimate of the energy involved.

4. Various estimates have repeatedly been made that there was not enough energy to cause pools of molten metal under the foundations, and have questioned where the fires that burned under the rubble came from.

From the above estimates, we can see that we have 429,000 pounds of burnable material on each floor. About 80% of one floor's material was consumed; we'll just elminate one floor and use 109 floors' worth. There were two sky lobbies, and two machinery floors. That will subtract another four floors, leaving 105. The ground floor was a couple of stories high, so we'll subtract another two, leaving 103. The top few floors were machinery floors, so we'll subtract another three leaving us 100.

The material likely didn't all wind up under the rubble; there were numerous reports that made it obvious that a substantial amount was dispersed in the debris cloud; papers floating around and so forth. To account for this, we'll subtract half of the material, so after we've multiplied the weight per floor by 100 floors, we'll use half that figure. We get 42,900,000 pounds, and dividing by two gives 21,450,000 pounds. Dividing by two thousand to get tons, we get 10,725 tons.

Now, how can we derive an energy figure from this? I looked for quite a while, and came up with this site, which gives the energy available from burning garbage (which is a pretty good estimate of the contents of the floors where the plane struck- think about it for a moment). This energy content is given as 25% (1/4) of the energy content of the equivalent amount of coal. The same site has another page that has a convenient "coal energy calculator" on it. Now, how much of that office content is actually burnable? I have previously (in a prior post) used a figure of 33%; I'll be even more conservative and reduce that to 25%. So of all the contents, only 25% by weight is burnable paper, cloth, wood, and plastic; the remainder is unburnable metal.

25% of 10,725 tons is 2,681.25 tons; and 25% of that is 670.3125 tons. Plugging this in to our trusty calculator, we get 14677584.8MJ, or 14.7TJ. This is an ENORMOUS amount of energy; it's equivalent to 3,508.0269598 tons of TNT. 3.5 KILOTONS! But remember: this energy is released over time. There isn't much oxygen down in the rubble, and more doesn't come in very fast, so it takes weeks for all of this material to burn. All ten thousand tons of it. And it doesn't all burn; a fair bit of it never burns, because it either gets put out when it's dug up, or because the heat never reaches it, or because there isn't enough oxygen to burn it when it's hot enough. But this is more than enough heat, even released over weeks, to liquify many thousands of tons of metal.

Finally, we've also got an answer from this material for where any extra energy beyond the 200,000 kWh we got from the kinetic energy of the collapse that's required to drive the cloud came from: if only 1% of this material burned on the way down, it would have given us the energy equivalent of an extra 35 tons of explosives, an additional 41,000kWh of energy. A few percent would add up to another 100,000kWh, easily enough to meet our energy requirements.

This should be sufficient to put to rest many wild speculations regarding what happened with the towers. Please let me know if you spot any errors.
Schneibster
QUOTE (Faux+)
Now note the alleged large gaping hole in the center of the south face, (which NIST tells us was done by falling debris from WTC 1).

NIST tells us that there was a... "large debris hole near center around 14th floor". Looking at the photo above we can see the southwest corner damage. We know that; that damage extended to the 18th floor. (page 15 of the above report)

The NIST-alleged massive center damage should clearly be visible in the above photo (allegedly being only 4 floors below the height of the southwest corner damage).


Can you find the alleged damage which NIST indicates is in the center of the south face?
Umm, last time I checked, the southwest corner is on the LEFT side of the south face, not the right as it is in that picture. If the damage is on the RIGHT side of the pictured face, and on the southwest corner, then that must be the WEST face, not the South.

Gee, if you're looking at the South face, then you must be looking North. Imagine a map of the US; the West Coast is on the left, the East Coast is on the right, and North is up. So that means when you're looking North, like you would to see the South face, then West is on your left. On the other hand, if you're looking at the West face, then you must be looking East; and in that case, South is on your right.

For our next lesson, we'll learn how to tie our shoes.

Idiot.
RealityCheck

Hi Adoucette, everyone!

Guys, I was wondering, reading about the 'alleged explosions', if anyone else who had ever been directly under a low-flying supersonic-jet's 'sonic-boom' for the first time (and they didn't know the 'boom' was from a plane) has described the 'boom' as 'an explosion'. I know I did, when I was scared ***tless by my first encounter with a 'sonic boom' way back when supersonic planes and their 'sonic booms' were not yet common occurrences/knowledge, hehehe!

A 'blindfold' experiment with various 'sources' of air 'shock-fronts' might be in order to settle this question. I suspect that something of the sort must have already have been done long, long before 9/11, because I'm sure I'm not THAT 'ahead' of things that I am the first to think of such a 'study', heh guys? Does anyone have any links about such studies? Thanks...ciao, all.

RealityCheck.
.
yesitdid
QUOTE
According to 'Firehouse.com', (a relatively new fire-related magazine)... Captain Chris Boyle was there, and relates his story in an interview format...


" We were told to go to Greenwich and Vesey and see what's going on. So we go there and on the north and east side of 7 it didn't look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 and there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fires on several floors."


http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/mag...e/gz/boyle.html


It seems obvious that Captain Boyle was referring to the southwest corner damage, because that is the only damage apparent in the NIST photo which extends to a height of 18 - 20 stories.


I have not been able to find any photos or videos of the south face of WTC 7, nor any firefighter testimony which supports the idea of massive damage to the center of the south face as purported in the NIST schematic of alleged impact damage.



Boyle states he was on the north, then the east side of WTC7 and saw no damage but then exclaims at the damage to the south side. You characterize this as his meaning the SW corner? Foxx, if he came around the building from the east side then the SW corner was the furthest from his view and would have been partially obstructed by the pedestrian overpass(IIRC). At any rate your assumption that he was speaking about the SW corner is baseless. You then complain that you have read no firefighter testimony of massive damage to the south side!!! Boyle IS saying there was massive damage to the south side and you are changing his testimony strictly to conform to YOUR conspiracy theory.
Foxx
QUOTE
Originally posted by YesIt Did
Boyle states he was on the north, then the east side of WTC7 and saw no damage but then exclaims at the damage to the south side. You characterize this as his meaning the SW corner? Foxx, if he came around the building from the east side then the SW corner was the furthest from his view and would have been partially obstructed by the pedestrian overpass(IIRC). At any rate your assumption that he was speaking about the SW corner is baseless. You then complain that you have read no firefighter testimony of massive damage to the south side!!! Boyle IS saying there was massive damage to the south side and you are changing his testimony strictly to conform to YOUR conspiracy theory.


Sorry, YID ... I got distracted.

It seems that you (and Schneibster) are correct regarding the photo posted in the latest NIST WTC 7 interim draft. I have no problem with admitting errors. I admit that I originally had thought that NIST had reversed the photo which would put the southwest corner damage on the opposite side of the photo.

It appears I was wrong on that presumption. and that the photo both NIST & I used was possibly NOT of the south face of WTC 7.

It seems therefore that there is absolutely no photographic / video evidence of the south face of WTC 7... (unless someone is 'holding back' from NIST's request for the same).

We are therefore left with nothing apart from 'alleged firefighter testimony' to support the NIST schematic of impact damage to the south face of WTC 7.

Even IF it were shown that this south face impact damage could be documented, I believe this would lead to an asymmetrical collapse in that direction - not a symmetrical vertical collapse... (another divulging topic).

I would like to see all references to these alleged 'testimentiary witnesses'...

Got any links (outside of Firehouse.com) ? Any confirmations from FireEngineering.com (a fire engineering magazine with a 125 year history)

Changing the topic again (sorry) I have come upon a chemistry forum where aspects of 'explosives' are being discussed ... this is related to your TNT / RDX / conventional explosives questions which are being discussed from a chemical standpoint...

http://www.chemicalforums.com/index.php?bo...y;threadid=3878

Seems like many academics from various disciplines are discussing these issues with some 'concern' over the official story.

Also, thanks for your (unbiased) input on radio signals presented to questions posed at ApolloH on that issue, which I readily will concede that you would have more knowledge than I in that aspect.

Regardless, we are left in a position, as far as I can see, that we have no factual evidence of great gaping holes in the south face of WTC 7 (apart from the testimony of a few 'alleged' firefighters).

Before I comment further, perhaps you could provide links to NIST records of conversations / interviews of these few 'witnesses' to south side impact damage?

Thanks biggrin.gif


yesitdid
In the NIST WTC 7 report (appendix L) , figures L-23a and L-23b show the south face of WTC 7 and the debris on Vesey Street(which ran along the south side of WTC7. In the pictures you see the distinctive WTC tower perimeter columns in the debris right up to WTC7, some appear to actually be leaning on the WTC 7. Also noticeable is the large gap in the face of WTC7 though the smoke and dust partially obscure the view into #7, in L-23a damaged columns are visible (directly under the "Wille Cirone" copyright label on the photo.)

If facing the south side of WTC7 the SW corner would be to your left.

Photos L-22a&b show the west face of WTC7 . In 22a south is to the upper right of the photo, 22b is looking from the north, to the south towards the location of the towers which puts the west face of #7 in the left side of the street.. Once again perimeter columns are noticeable in the debris on the street. The damage in the photos clearly shows it to be in the SW corner of the building.
Foxx
QUOTE (yesitdid+Nov 19 2005, 05:42 AM)
In the NIST WTC 7 report (appendix L) , figures L-23a and L-23b show the south face of WTC 7 and the debris on Vesey Street(which ran along the south side of WTC7. In the pictures you see the distinctive WTC tower perimeter columns in the debris right up to WTC7, some appear to actually be leaning on the WTC 7. Also noticeable is the large gap in the face of WTC7 though the smoke and dust partially obscure the view into #7, in L-23a damaged columns are visible (directly under the "Wille Cirone" copyright label on the photo.)

If facing the south side of WTC7 the SW corner would be to your left.

Photos L-22a&b show the west face of WTC7 . In 22a south is to the upper right of the photo, 22b is looking from the north, to the south towards the location of the towers which puts the west face of #7 in the left side of the street.. Once again perimeter columns are noticeable in the debris on the street. The damage in the photos clearly shows it to be in the SW corner of the building.

Thanks, YID.

I don't have unlimited time to spend on all these questions, so direct links are very helpful to expedite understanding.

You claim 'document x' states "Blah, blah, blah".

Great! how long does it take to add a link to the document/reference you are referring to?... http:// tada tada...

How hard is that?

Apart from some 'source/reference' your statements mean nothing to me.

Please don't waste all of our time with rhetorical statements that "x" is stated 'somewhere' without providing the link to the 'evidence' you wish to support.

Links make our lives so much easier. Thanks
adoucette
There have been a number of links posted to the NIST documents.

How many links do you need?

Besides a link will only take you to the document, YID's post shows WHERE in the document you need to look.

Consider saving a link under "favorites", besides, one would have thought you might have saved a copy of the NIST documents by now so you don't have to download it each time.

Hey, its your bandwidth, use it as you see fit.

Arthur
Schneibster
Why bother? The firefighter testimony was provided. It wasn't good enough. Provide something else. It won't be good enough either. Faux is never going to accept ANY evidence. If you put it in a time machine and took it back and showed it yourself, it would deny what it was seeing in front of its face after dreaming up an excuse.

The standard operating procedure is, you spend umpty-x hours digging up evidence, and it denies it; and if it can't deny it, it insults you until you go away. I predicted its actions the very first time I saw it, and it did precisely what I said it would. Care to try again? Care to see the prediction? See page 5 of this thread.

It's a TROLL.
Guest
Great thread, everyone. I've been following it from very early on and decided it was time to add my two cents worth.

I have several questions/observations regarding the collapse of the two towers, namely:

1. What forces came in to play to stop the rotation of the top section of the South Tower after it began its collapse?

User posted image

2. The pancake theory suggests, and the video footage confirms, that the buildings came straight down onto themselves (stating the obvious, I hope). Given this, and 'cepting of course the notable non-pancake behavior of the top section of the South Tower, IMO it's reasonable to assume that the forces being applied to any given floor were reasonably uniform across the floor as the weight of all the floors above made contact. In other words, whatever combination of forces caused one truss or column to "fail", like forces probably caused other similar trusses/columns on that floor to fail. If this were not the case, I find it hard to imagine how we would get a symmetrical collapse.

I make the above observation so that I can ask my next question from the simplified perspective of a single core column (if the answer to this question applies to one column, then by the above-observation, it applies to all columns...?):

As a single core column above the impact point began its journey toward the ground, exactly what forces came in to play that would cause all sections of the same column below it to snap into 30 foot lengths? Presumably, the column above would pile-drive the column directly below it, so what laws of physics dictate that the section below would always came out the absolute loser in the contest between it and the section above (and thus leaving the above section perfectly intact for the next "hit")? I realize that the falling section brought with it the weight of the floors above, but since the full weight of the falling section would be distributed more or less evenly across the entire impact area, each pile-driving impact would be made with only the force from a percentage of the weight from above? Has anyone done a calculation as the the pile-driving force that might be applied to a single section of core column below the impact site as the collapse began?

As an upper section of a core column pile-drove (?) and "snapped off" the section below, what forces were at work that ensured the above section remained perfectly lined up for its impact with the next section, instead of perhaps being deflected even several inches in the horizontal plane? Accumulated deflections over several floors would certainly put a stop to the observed recursive nature of each floor's destruction.

And how did each break point of a column remain perfectly flat so that the next pile-drive would not be "chamfered" away, thus putting an end to the observed recursive nature of each floor's destruction? If you say it's because the breaks occurred at joints, then what transverse forces caused the joints to fail, but did not also cause a deflection of the section above?

3. A question about the "flouring" of all the concrete in the building: exactly what mechanical action and forces caused the powderization of the concrete (particularly the floors)? At first glance, the "Pancake Theory" would seem to easily explain the action: one concrete floor falls on to the one below, thus turning the (both) floor's concrete to fine powder. While this may or may not be "theoretically"accurate (I'm not a materials expert and don't know how concrete should behave under compression), for me the whole explanation falls apart when I make the simple observation that the floors were not pancakes. Rather, they were a series of parallel trusses with a top sheet of a corrugated steel filled with concrete. As one floor fell onto the next, the point of impact would have been the lower edge of the upper trusses meeting the upper edge of the lower trusses, through a thin layer of concrete/corrugated steel. The concrete floor slab should have been broken up cookie-cutter style, not pulverized pancake style.

And assuming that the cookie-cutter action was somehow able to completely pulverize the concrete, how did (seemingly) all the dust escape so easily from underneath a floor's coverings? I've never been in the WTC towers, but I would assume that the floors were not bare concrete, and had some sort of covering on them. In the case of carpeting, would it not be flexible enough to "go with the flow" of the collapse and keep a lot of the powdered concrete sandwiched between itself and the steel pan?


Just my 2c.
Foxx
Valid questions posed above by 'Guest'. (IMO)

Guest, why not sign-up so at least you are differentiated fom numerous other 'Guests' and we can respond to at least someone who presents a 'handle'?

Thanks.

QUOTE
originally posted by Adoucette -
There have been a number of links posted to the NIST documents.


Certainly there have been. The 'problem' is that NIST has spewed forth over 50,000 pages of documents under different headings and different drafts of each heading making it a nightmare to keep track of everything they have published with regard to the WTC investigation.

Pdfs are split up into numerous partitions with Executive Summaries, Addendums, etc, etc, etc. It's fine to state that "look in addendum "X" ", and It surely can be found, if a person wishes to spend hours & hours on each question raised.

However, my experience with trolls who make unverified (un-linked / un-sourced) statements is quite often these have proved to be a deliberate time-wasting exercise that trolls like to send others on.

The alleged 'quotes' are either not to be found, or taken out of context, or found to have been manipulated through rhetorics to have no relevance.

I am not particularly accusing any named individual of doing this, however, there is really no valid reason not to reference a 'source' by providing a 'link' to that source. Even before the advent of the internet all honest publishers would provide footnotes to where the original information can be found.

To try to make sophist excuses of why this honest and reputable practice is no longer necessary is pure 'horsepucky'

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
originally posted by Adoucette -
There have been a number of links posted to the NIST documents.


Certainly there have been. The 'problem' is that NIST has spewed forth over 50,000 pages of documents under different headings and different drafts of each heading making it a nightmare to keep track of everything they have published with regard to the WTC investigation.

Pdfs are split up into numerous partitions with Executive Summaries, Addendums, etc, etc, etc. It's fine to state that "look in addendum "X" ", and It surely can be found, if a person wishes to spend hours & hours on each question raised.

However, my experience with trolls who make unverified (un-linked / un-sourced) statements is quite often these have proved to be a deliberate time-wasting exercise that trolls like to send others on.

The alleged 'quotes' are either not to be found, or taken out of context, or found to have been manipulated through rhetorics to have no relevance.

I am not particularly accusing any named individual of doing this, however, there is really no valid reason not to reference a 'source' by providing a 'link' to that source. Even before the advent of the internet all honest publishers would provide footnotes to where the original information can be found.

To try to make sophist excuses of why this honest and reputable practice is no longer necessary is pure 'horsepucky'

How many links do you need?


Just those necessary to support statements posted.

QUOTE
Besides a link will only take you to the document, YID's post shows WHERE in the document you need to look.


That's great! Where to look in WHAT document?

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Besides a link will only take you to the document, YID's post shows WHERE in the document you need to look.


That's great! Where to look in WHAT document?

Consider saving a link under "favorites", besides, one would have thought you might have saved a copy of the NIST documents by now so you don't have to download it each time.


I already have most saved, all one needs do is state the full name of the document (or much easier the link) and it can quickly be found.

This is a general habit of all real researchers, (as can easily be recognized in these threads).

Those who believe that NIST & other government agencies are not being wholly truthful; usually provide links which anyone can easily check for the veracity of their statements... whereas the supporters of the official story tend towards sophist or rhetorical personal interpretations of what is stated in their alleged 'quotes' and rarely provide any links which could easily and independantly be researched to determine if the sophist or rhetorical questions can be verified.

I don't think the request that 'links / references' be provided to verify a posters statements is an 'unreasonable request'.

This is just common courtesy, and if someone is not trying to hide behind obfuscating statements, I don't see where any honest person would complain about providing such.


QUOTE
Originally posted by Schneibster
Why bother? The firefighter testimony was provided. It wasn't good enough.


Well, although you may be of the opinion that the report of one firefighter is 'absolute proof' of your viewpoint, I am not so quick to grant infallibility to any one persons witness testimony. Especially when that one witness seems to state opinions which are contrary to the statements of numerous other witnesses. I doubt that you place much emphasis on those military witnesses at the Pentagon who make statements contrary to the majority of other witnesses... (Do you ???). If you do discount isolated witnesses withb regards to the Pentagon issue, then why do you suddenly reverse beliefs when it comes to wtc WITNESSES ???

Stallion4 has posted a massive witness testimonial exposure regarding 'explosions' at ground zero, yet you (and other gravity-driven supporters) seem to dismiss these with just a wave of the hand, as if these multitudes of witnesses are 'lying' / 'confused' / 'ignorant' ???

Certainly, there is some 'plausibilty' to the arguement that ... "perhaps these witnesses were confused as to the 'sounds' associated with the 'collapses'; however that 'arguement' does not extend plausibly to numerous witnesses who state they saw visible 'lighting flashes' coming from below the impact zone just prior to 'collapse'.

How do you wave your hand and brush-off as irrelevant these witnesses who saw brisant flashes???

As far as I can see, even IF you can come up with some sophist / rhetorics to dismiss the eye-witnesses to visible flashes... when you take all these witnesses in context, you are faced with a body of witness testimony which provides not only evidence of 'sounds' related to 'explosives'... but also 'sights' which add weight to the statements made by audio witnesses.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Originally posted by Schneibster
Why bother? The firefighter testimony was provided. It wasn't good enough.


Well, although you may be of the opinion that the report of one firefighter is 'absolute proof' of your viewpoint, I am not so quick to grant infallibility to any one persons witness testimony. Especially when that one witness seems to state opinions which are contrary to the statements of numerous other witnesses. I doubt that you place much emphasis on those military witnesses at the Pentagon who make statements contrary to the majority of other witnesses... (Do you ???). If you do discount isolated witnesses withb regards to the Pentagon issue, then why do you suddenly reverse beliefs when it comes to wtc WITNESSES ???

Stallion4 has posted a massive witness testimonial exposure regarding 'explosions' at ground zero, yet you (and other gravity-driven supporters) seem to dismiss these with just a wave of the hand, as if these multitudes of witnesses are 'lying' / 'confused' / 'ignorant' ???

Certainly, there is some 'plausibilty' to the arguement that ... "perhaps these witnesses were confused as to the 'sounds' associated with the 'collapses'; however that 'arguement' does not extend plausibly to numerous witnesses who state they saw visible 'lighting flashes' coming from below the impact zone just prior to 'collapse'.

How do you wave your hand and brush-off as irrelevant these witnesses who saw brisant flashes???

As far as I can see, even IF you can come up with some sophist / rhetorics to dismiss the eye-witnesses to visible flashes... when you take all these witnesses in context, you are faced with a body of witness testimony which provides not only evidence of 'sounds' related to 'explosives'... but also 'sights' which add weight to the statements made by audio witnesses.

Provide something else. It won't be good enough either. Faux is never going to accept ANY evidence. If you put it in a time machine and took it back and showed it yourself, it would deny what it was seeing in front of its face after dreaming up an excuse.


See the above. When you begin to address ALL the factual evidence presented, you will be hard-pressed to provide a cohesive argument to support a gravity-driven collapse within the context of witness testimony.

Regarding the time of free-fall. My guess is that due to friction & resistance even a known controlled demolition will not fall at 'free-fall speed', (however it will be close).

How close?

We don't know until such time as someone quantifies the numbers of how much slower than actual free-fall a controlled demo falls at.

Turbonium posted a nice gif on the WTC 7 thread (AH forum) of a controlled demo, however given the non streaming animation the numbers could not be determined from a 'video' like this...

user posted image

Nevertheless, if someone were to take a good video of a demolition collapse, and calculate the percentage slow-down from actual free-fall speed, this should allow us to determine whether the time of a known demolition would fall faster or slower or about the same speed as the WTC ???

You are a great hand-waver, Schneibster. You have been going-on about this 'difference' between actual free-fall speed (such as is evident from those massive sections of perimeter column trees laterally propulsed 2 - 3 times the diameter of the building footprint at the very early stages of the 'collapse' ... compared to the rate of vertical disintegration of the still-uncompromised section of the intact towers.

I agree, and have never argued against you on this point (regardless of your sophist arguements that I have).

The actual 'free-fall speed' of objects falling apart from any resistance at all (except air-resistance), will of course (by basic physics, and conservation of momentum) BE "Slower" than 'free-fall speeds' in a vacuum or suffering the minor effects of air-resistance.

We all recognize that fact. The 'QUESTION' is...

How much 'slower' SHOULD it fall ?

My suspicion is that EVEN a 'controlled demolition' rate-of-fall-speed WILL be slower than actual free-fall speeds, but we need to quantify the difference.

Simple hand waving that the rate of disintegration of the sound portions of the lower section of building proceeded at a slower rate than 'actual free-fall speeds [in a vacuum, or facing nothing more than air-resistance], doesn't hold up to scrutiny...UNLESS you can quantitatively define how much slower this rate should be.

You seem to be an intelligent fellow (apart from your caustic denigrations of those who disagree with you).

Why not try to do some calculations on how much slower a conventional demolition falls, as opposed to actual free-fall speeds ???

IF you can demonstrate that free-fall proceeds at 'x' speed...demolition fall proceeds at 'x/1' speed... and that gravity-driven collapse proceeds at 'x/2' speeds...

and that gravity-driven collapse is slower than either 'free-fall' or 'demolition' speeds of fall...

THEN, you will be making a quantitative analysis which holds up to scrutiny.

Apart from that you are just whistling in the wind with your mathematical analysis that 'free-falling bodies' fell faster than the speed of disintegration of the buildings.

user posted image




RealityCheck
Hi Guest!

Just some similarly common-sensical observations in the same vein of those you make for the purposes of 'down to earth' discussion. I hope you will forgive my brevity. but I'm pressed for time at the moment! I hope these observations will be of use to you....

Regarding TOP not toppling: If you've ever adjusted an old-fashioned lampshade on an upright table-lamp, you will know that while the 'external box 'hat' may be quite 'skew-wiff', the central 'up-right core' of the lamp to which the shade is attached near the top is still substantially upright and in its 'central' position....and that it is merely the 'hat' of the lamp that is ROTATING about a fulcrum at the point of attachment (ie, the external hat 'box' is NOT TIPPING from its 'base' at the impact floor, but is pivoting-rotating from its attachment points on the central 'spine' and spire structure...which had NOT YET BEGUN to 'fail' and 'fall' into the building 'box' below). So the center of gravity is still essentially AS IT WAS with the lampshade in its proper position....hence not much is required to prevent the hatbox from falling 'out' of that centre-of-gravity area....and whatever was required would have been provided by the restraint from whatever 'external/internal columns were still intact and 'pulling' on that side away from the direction of 'rotation'.

Regarding why the 'pulverisation': Have you ever held a long, rigid metal bar when someone strikes the other end with a sledgehammer before you have got that bar into a proper position flat on the pounding surface? Well, I can tell you that my wrists and arms were 'humming' for days afterwards! The vibrations from the impact are tremendous, and just about pulverised my wrists! Multiply that force and effect a few million times, and you get the idea of what tremendous vibrational forces/effects were involved in all that collapse chaos. You can also imaging that damage to 'succeeding' floors that would have been going on 'in advance' of the actual floor-to-floor impacts. The progressive air-compression 'shocks' (think 'sonic-blasting' processes used in industry to 'pulverise' stuff) and the steel-transmitted soundwaves/shocks down the 'columns'/steelwork would have pulverised the cement 'coatings' and 'popped' the connecting rivets. I visualise a wave-of-failure PRECEDING the actual floor-to-floor impact-collapse wave. Which might explain the 'preceding-puffs/sounds' and speed of collapse and the supposed 'lack' of MAJOR resistance to 'falling'.

Regarding why 'inside' (rather than 'skew-wiff') collapse; and the 'segment' lengths: Until each level's outer-wall sections are pushed apart by cumulative material and 'shocks from falling floors from above, the still-supported outer 'tube' walls at each stage would tend to 'guide' and 'focuse' the collapse material to the centre. And this would tend to not only 'contain' the collapse so that it happens within the structure, but also would AMPLIFY the OVERLOAD on the cental structure so that it not only had to contend with the usual 'stripping' (like what happens when a timber-harvesting machine 'strips' the branches from a newly-harvested log), it also had suddenly-escalating 'piledriving' forces to contend with (and which, among other things, it was NEVER designed to contend with). And naturally the 30ft segments of steel would represent where the 'perforations' and floor stresses (which would be a 'regular pattern' up the height of the building in association with floor separation/placement) would have resulted in a somewhat 'repetitious' form of snapping/shearing/bending failure pattern).

That's all the time I have for now. Good luck with your own search for answers on these and other points!

RealityCheck.
.
metamars
Schneibster:

QUOTE
Second, Hoffman clearly fails to note that the kinetic energy turns to heat after it crushes the concrete; thus, the energy budget to expand the cloud must include the energy that crushes the concrete. Instead, Hoffman subtracts this energy, as if it just disappears after the concrete is crushed.


I have already shown that this complaint has no merit. And when I say no merit, I mean no merit. Interested readers can search this thread for my relevant posts.

Also, undercounting the mass of the building is actually favorable to the gravity driven collapse fairy tale, as the more mass, the more energy you need to heat up the mass, and the details are such that the energy deficit becomes much worse.

The complaint about evidence for such a high temperature cannot be dismissed so easily, and one hopes that a more elaborate model employing hydrodynamics will be funded, somehow, and created. Of course, such a more elaborate model would incorporate the top/down nature of the collapse. Dust which is heated to a high temperature at, say, 500 feet, will have "lots" of time to cool by the time it reaches the ground. (Intuitively: crack open the door to a sauna and stand 1 feet away. How much has the air/steam cooled by the time it reached you? Or, if you prefer, turn on your hair dryer to the 'hi' setting, and hold your hand in front of it, as close as you can reasonably maintain it. Now, move your hand a foot away. These example involve, speaking very roughly, a localized heat source. Likewise, most everybody expects the relevant heat source to be confined to roughly the height of the WTC towers, and a 'rubble footprint') A floor by floor demolition implies (I presume) that the hottest gasses affecting ground level would have to come from the demolition of floors near ground level (those from higher floors having cooled significantly)

I would expect the temperature differential between the frontier of the pyroclastic dust cloud and it's source - Ground Zero - to vary dramatically, especially the further one gets from Ground Zero. The real question are : how dramatically? What are the dynamical details (behavior wrt time)? Also, what does this mean in terms of heat transfer to buildings and living things?

adoucette
Foxx,
I apologize. I thought he was referencing the WTC Final report, which based on giving the appendix and illustration id, should have been sufficient.

But he was referencing the WTC 7 report.

I did not think this was available yet.

So, in this case, a link would certainly be helpful, as I can't find the report he is referencing either.

Arthur
Schneibster
QUOTE (Faux+)
Well, although you may be of the opinion that the report of one firefighter
I provided three. This is precisely why I say you lie.

QUOTE (Faux+)
is 'absolute proof' of your viewpoint, I am not so quick to grant infallibility to any one persons witness testimony.
I'm not real happy with it being single-sourced either, and if you were actually paying attention, you'd note that I haven't used NIST as a second source; but you're so busy "proving" (i.e. lying) that I'm wrong, you just never noticed that, did you? And again, the statement "absolute proof" is also a lie, both about my attitude toward it, and about what I have said about it.

QUOTE (Faux+)
Especially when that one witness seems to state opinions which are contrary to the statements of numerous other witnesses.
What other witnesses? This is another lie.

QUOTE (Faux+)
Stallion4 has posted a massive witness testimonial exposure regarding 'explosions' at ground zero, yet you (and other gravity-driven supporters) seem to dismiss these with just a wave of the hand, as if these multitudes of witnesses are 'lying' / 'confused' / 'ignorant' ???
It has been repeatedly stated that there is little if any difference between the effects of a collapsing story with the weight of ten or more stories above it, and the effects of a bomb blast, particularly in the presence of a fire. You will hear a "boom," you will see flying debris, you will see flames pushed out into the air, and there will be damage to the building. It is entirely possible that a demolition professional could not tell the difference simply by seeing and hearing it. Yet, you have repeatedly ignored this, and here again, you lie, when you claim that I have said they were lying, confused, or ignorant.

QUOTE (Faux+)
Certainly, there is some 'plausibilty' to the arguement that ... "perhaps these witnesses were confused as to the 'sounds' associated with the 'collapses'; however that 'arguement' does not extend plausibly to numerous witnesses who state they saw visible 'lighting flashes' coming from below the impact zone just prior to 'collapse'.
I'm not even opening this box with you. You'll just lie some more.

QUOTE (Faux+)
Regarding the time of free-fall. My guess is that due to friction & resistance even a known controlled demolition will not fall at 'free-fall speed', (however it will be close).
And yet again, you lie: it is nowhere "close," and it never was. There is no evidence to support this, and you have been faced with it time and again, yet you refuse to acknowledge it. It's all there in black and white, and the videos are numerous and detailed.

QUOTE (Faux+)
You are a great hand-waver, Schneibster. You have been going-on about this 'difference' between actual free-fall speed (such as is evident from those massive sections of perimeter column trees laterally propulsed 2 - 3 times the diameter of the building footprint at the very early stages of the 'collapse' ... compared to the rate of vertical disintegration of the still-uncompromised section of the intact towers.
And another lie. That was neither what I said, nor what I concluded. What I said was, the debris is falling at free-fall speeds; if the building is collapsing at "near-free-fall" speed, how come the debris is 20 stories ahead of it?

QUOTE (Faux+)
The actual 'free-fall speed' of objects falling apart from any resistance at all (except air-resistance), will of course (by basic physics, and conservation of momentum) BE "Slower" than 'free-fall speeds' in a vacuum or suffering the minor effects of air-resistance.
I'm not sure if this is a lie, or if you really don't understand this; I'm going to be charitable and assume you really haven't thought your way through it.

Gee, I guess you just said that the debris was falling in a vacuum around the tower, and the tower was falling in air.

Better try that one again.

QUOTE (Faux+)
My suspicion is that EVEN a 'controlled demolition' rate-of-fall-speed WILL be slower than actual free-fall speeds, but we need to quantify the difference.
You have been told that a demolition merely weakens the structure of a building, and that the driving force behind its collapse is ALWAYS its own weight. Did you have some trouble understanding this? Or did you ignore it? Because you certainly haven't answered it.

QUOTE (Faux+)
Simple hand waving that the rate of disintegration of the sound portions of the lower section of building proceeded at a slower rate than 'actual free-fall speeds [in a vacuum, or facing nothing more than air-resistance], doesn't hold up to scrutiny...UNLESS you can quantitatively define how much slower this rate should be.
In fact, the results of a demolition and the results of the buillding falling down on its own should be roughly identical. It is unlikely you could tell the difference. In an earthquake, generally the structure itself is not damaged; its foundation is where the damage is done, and the major differences between buildings that collapse in earthquakes and buildings that are deliberately demolished is primarily due to this difference in the cause of the collapse. The WTC towers' foundations were not compromised at the beginning of the collapse, and thus the way they fell is very different from the way that buildings fall in an earthquake, but very similar to the way buildings fall in a demolition.

QUOTE (Faux+)
You seem to be an intelligent fellow (apart from your caustic denigrations of those who disagree with you).
I detest people who lie in a forum; it's the stupidest thing to do that I can imagine. You don't even have to face people face-to-face here; why lie? Why misrepresent what someone else says? I started out with you easy enough to get along with; it's when you started to misrepresent what I said and what I believed that I became abusive. If you don't like being abused, don't lie to or about me. If you don't understand, ASK. Don't assume I'm wrong, and don't assume I'm lying- I'll ream you if you do. And don't lie- I'll ream you for that too.

QUOTE (Faux+)
Why not try to do some calculations on how much slower a conventional demolition falls, as opposed to actual free-fall speeds ???
Perhaps our Opel-driving structural engineer will chime in; but as far as I know, there aren't any such.

QUOTE (Faux+)
Apart from that you are just whistling in the wind with your mathematical analysis that 'free-falling bodies' fell faster than the speed of disintegration of the buildings.
And once again, you lie. It's perfectly straightforward. The fact that YOU don't understand it doesn't make it wrong, particularly since you can't think clearly enough to distinguish South from West, or right from left.
Foxx
QUOTE
Originally posted by metamars
I have already shown that this complaint has no merit. And when I say no merit, I mean no merit. Interested readers can search this thread for my relevant posts.


Undoubtedly, metamars (and others) have addressed these 'complaints' way back on pages 15 - 20. The 'Scheneibster' posts sophist boogie-woogie every once in a while to say that these 'have never been addressed'... but most certainly 'Schneibsters' analyses have been responded to quite adequately 'way back when'.

Now, he tries to recycle the same ol' bs.

Those of us who are keeping up with this discussion; clearly recognize 'Schneibster' as a bs'er of the first degree.

But hey... let's NOT diminish his expertise in this field. He is an 'expert' at bs. biggrin.gif
Foxx
QUOTE
Originally posted by Schneibster
I provided three. This is precisely why I say you lie.


Dear friend,( fellow investigator )...

my apologies if I have been remiss in not capturing the 3 'testimonials' you refer to.

I have tried to perform a diligent study of this thread, and cannot find the links to testimonials you refer to??

This is why I ask for actual 'links', as opposed to unsupported statements.

Please provide links/references to the 'testimonials' you wish to present.

Thanks.
RealityCheck

Hi Foxx!

I've just finished catching up with what I've missed in this thread while I've been away (getting over a lung infection).

You have just asserted that: "Those of us who are keeping up with this discussion; clearly recognize 'Schneibster' as a bs'er of the first degree."

This, at least in my case, is not true.

I just thought you and everyone else should be made aware of the fact that you do not speak for me. I am perfectly able to articulate my own opinions as to who I think is ".....a bs'er of the first degree."

Thanks.

RealityCheck.
.


Foxx
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Nov 20 2005, 02:21 AM)
Hi Foxx!

I've just finished catching up with what I've missed in this thread while I've been away (getting over a lung infection).

You have just asserted that: "Those of us who are keeping up with this discussion; clearly recognize 'Schneibster' as a bs'er of the first degree."

This, at least in my case, is not true.

I just thought you and everyone else should be made aware of the fact that you do not speak for me. I am perfectly able to articulate my own opinions as to who I think is ".....a bs'er of the first degree."

Thanks.

RealityCheck.
.

Thanks, Reality Check.

Best wishes with regard to your lung problems.

Having worked in the reinforced composite field for the past 35 years or so, I recognize that my # is also coming up. biggrin.gif


RealityCheck
Hi Foxx.

Thanks for your sympathy/empathy re my lungs. Same to you.

Regarding my notice to you and everyone just now...you DID understand what I was implying, did you not?

Since there are only 'two sides' to that question of it being Shneibster or someone else; and since I made clear that your assertion on (supposedly) my behalf (in addition to all those who HAVE followed this thread) was, indeed, not true, then there can be only one conclusion regarding my opinion as to which 'side' the ".....bs'er of the first degree" is if not Schneibster's 'side'.

I hope your sympathy/empathy for my medical plight, and your gratitude for my earlier notification as to my independent status, in this matter of opinion as to who is "b*llsh*tting, survives any further realisation on your part as regards my original implication.

Good luck with your medical plight. Regards.

RealityCheck.
.
Schneibster
QUOTE (Faux+)
QUOTE
Originally posted by Schneibster
I provided three. This is precisely why I say you lie.


Dear friend,( fellow investigator )...

my apologies if I have been remiss in not capturing the 3 'testimonials' you refer to.

I have tried to perform a diligent study of this thread, and cannot find the links to testimonials you refer to??

This is why I ask for actual 'links', as opposed to unsupported statements.

Please provide links/references to the 'testimonials' you wish to present.

Thanks.
I have. Why should I repost quotes over and over and over again? That's why it's a thread, and why it's stored on a server. Go look at them; everybody else saw them. In order to look at past pages, click on the numbers on the left side of the header of the page you are reading this on; the ones right after the link that says, "Pages," would be a good choice. I suggest looking at page 39; try searching on the word "this," and when you find one that's underlined, try clicking on it. If it goes to Firehouse magazine, and it's an interview of a fire captain or chief, it probably immediately precedes the quoted material that I took from it. This would be particularly likely to be true in a post that I made, so you might want to keep an eye out for that.
frater plecticus
WHAT IS THE PATTERN THAT CONNECTS THE "TRUE" INFORMATION FROM THE "PRESENTED AS TRUE" INFORMATION ?

Page 3 Sinclair
QUOTE
I believe I am correct in stating that only 3 steel framed buildings have ever collapsed as a result of fire damage. All three of these buildings collapsed on 11th September 2001; WTC-1, WTC-2 & WTC-7.
TRUE

Page 4 Nemesis
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
I believe I am correct in stating that only 3 steel framed buildings have ever collapsed as a result of fire damage. All three of these buildings collapsed on 11th September 2001; WTC-1, WTC-2 & WTC-7.
TRUE

Page 4 Nemesis
The attacks : were the *US-commissioned “new Pearl Harbor” : they provided the excuse to invade Afghanistan and take control of the strategically-oil-critical area : restored the heroin trade : reinforced the spurious arguments for the invasion of Iraq : destroyed large amounts of criminal evidence, against some very big Bush-friends, on the FBI and SEC floors of the WTC buildings : facilitated the pay-back of huge sums of election-donated money to the arms and pharmaceutical industries and allowed the Bush administration to create an even more tyrannically-controlled police state in the USA and kidnap, imprison and tortue innocent “terrorists”
TRUE (EXCEPT*-NOT PROVED)

page 7 guest
QUOTE
A knowledge of physics is not required to KNOW that the official explanation of the collapse of WTC 1 & 2 is a lie.[B]
TRUE

Page 8
Stallion 4
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
A knowledge of physics is not required to KNOW that the official explanation of the collapse of WTC 1 & 2 is a lie.[B]
TRUE

Page 8
Stallion 4
What are the odds that a passport belonging to one of the 9/11 "hijackers" could be found near ground zero after it slammed directly into the center of the north tower. What are the odds of a paper passport surviving that type of crash? Keep in mind that the "hijackers" passport was the only passport found belonging to any of the passengers that were reportedly on the two flights that crashed into the towers
PRESENTED AS TRUTH

Page 8
Jon Pratt
QUOTE


Reality Check is not a credible source. This is from page 8.
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Complete 9-11 timeline
http://cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.js...te_911_timeline


Reality Check is not a credible source. This is from page 8.
(1) A steel frame skyscraper which, UNLIKE ALL PREVIOUS SKYSCRAPERS, used ONLY an outer ‘SHELL’ of steel and glass to essentially produce a ‘square tube’ from whose ‘walls’ were suspended floor slabs fixed at their edges by welds/rivets etc. to that ‘exo-skeleton’ framework;

(2) Those floor slabs, UNLIKE PREVIOUS SKYSCRAPERS, had LITTLE or NO CONTIGUOUS CENTRAL SUPPORT FRAMEWORK/CONCRETE-COLUMNS running from foundations to roof;


The correct answer, is of course....

User posted image

Page 10
Guest Plectic
QUOTE
SEISMIC EVIDENCE
The seismic effects of the collapse of the towers were observed and measured by
Columbia University’s Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory just up the Hudson River in
Palisades, New York. Here seismographs recorded two spikes reflecting two shock waves
in the earth on the morning of 9/11. The crucial fact is that these two spikes came just
before the collapse of the towers began. Specifically, Columbia scientists at the facility
registered a tremor of 2.1 on the Richter scale at 9:59:04 EDT, just before the beginning
of the collapse of the South Tower, and a 2.3 shock just as the North Tower began to
come down at 10:28:31 EDT. Both tremors were recorded before the vast majority of the
mass of the buildings hit the ground. Although they were not of earthquake proportions,
these were considerable shocks, about twenty times more potent than any previously
measured shock wave generated by a falling building. The 1993 WTC truck bomb had
produced no seismic effects at all – it had failed to register. [B]At 5:20 local time on the
afternoon of 9/11, there was also a 0.6 tremor from the collapse of WTC 7, also at the
beginning, rather than the end, of this building’s collapse.
Dr. Arthur Lerner-Lam, the
director of the Columbia Center for Hazards and Risk Research, commented that “during
the collapse, most of the energy of the falling debris was absorbed by the towers and
neighboring structures, converting them into rubble and dust or causing other damage –
but not causing significant ground shaking.” But Lerner-Lam declined to draw any
conclusions from the glaring anomaly represented by his data, which the 9/11
commission has also avoided.
TRUE
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/media/2005/07/317436.pdf

user posted image
TRUE

Page 18
Frater Plecticus
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
SEISMIC EVIDENCE
The seismic effects of the collapse of the towers were observed and measured by
Columbia University’s Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory just up the Hudson River in
Palisades, New York. Here seismographs recorded two spikes reflecting two shock waves
in the earth on the morning of 9/11. The crucial fact is that these two spikes came just
before the collapse of the towers began. Specifically, Columbia scientists at the facility
registered a tremor of 2.1 on the Richter scale at 9:59:04 EDT, just before the beginning
of the collapse of the South Tower, and a 2.3 shock just as the North Tower began to
come down at 10:28:31 EDT. Both tremors were recorded before the vast majority of the
mass of the buildings hit the ground. Although they were not of earthquake proportions,
these were considerable shocks, about twenty times more potent than any previously
measured shock wave generated by a falling building. The 1993 WTC truck bomb had
produced no seismic effects at all – it had failed to register. [B]At 5:20 local time on the
afternoon of 9/11, there was also a 0.6 tremor from the collapse of WTC 7, also at the
beginning, rather than the end, of this building’s collapse. Dr. Arthur Lerner-Lam, the
director of the Columbia Center for Hazards and Risk Research, commented that “during
the collapse, most of the energy of the falling debris was absorbed by the towers and
neighboring structures, converting them into rubble and dust or causing other damage –
but not causing significant ground shaking.” But Lerner-Lam declined to draw any
conclusions from the glaring anomaly represented by his data, which the 9/11
commission has also avoided.
TRUE
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/media/2005/07/317436.pdf

user posted image
TRUE

Page 18
Frater Plecticus

Anthrax attack bug "identical" to army strain
19:00 09 May 02 NewScientist.com news service
The DNA sequence of the anthrax sent through the US mail in 2001 has been revealed and confirms suspicions that the bacteria originally came from a US military laboratory.http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992265
TRUE

User posted image
PRESENTED AS TRUTH

Page 18
Metamars
QUOTE
In fact, my main motivation for spending time on this is concern over the maniacal path that the Bush Administration (heeding the neocons) is taking us on. If we really do allow 911 to take us directly to WW3, those who knew and kept their mouths shut out of cowardice will have no consolation when their city gets nuked, or even when the radioactive fallout from Middle East eventually wafts over the US (or wherever you happen to live.)

I often listen to physicist Michio Kaku (wbai.org, Exploration in Understanding), who often reminds us that you can take a geiger counter and hold it up against your body, and you will hear clicks corresponding to fallout from a single Chinese above ground nuclear test.

If you'd like your children and/or grandchildren to have 5 fingers, instead of 4 or 6, and you agree with the "conspiracy theorists", my advice is to grow a spine.
TRUE

Page 20
Frater Plecticus
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
In fact, my main motivation for spending time on this is concern over the maniacal path that the Bush Administration (heeding the neocons) is taking us on. If we really do allow 911 to take us directly to WW3, those who knew and kept their mouths shut out of cowardice will have no consolation when their city gets nuked, or even when the radioactive fallout from Middle East eventually wafts over the US (or wherever you happen to live.)

I often listen to physicist Michio Kaku (wbai.org, Exploration in Understanding), who often reminds us that you can take a geiger counter and hold it up against your body, and you will hear clicks corresponding to fallout from a single Chinese above ground nuclear test.

If you'd like your children and/or grandchildren to have 5 fingers, instead of 4 or 6, and you agree with the "conspiracy theorists", my advice is to grow a spine.
TRUE

Page 20
Frater Plecticus
The immature approach by the defenders of the incredulous conspiracy theory that 4 aircraft were simultaneously hijacked under the direction of "Millionaire Al-Quaeda mastermind" Bin Laden, using a portable from a cave somewhere in Afghanistan, 3 of which scored direct hits on highly-symbolic targets against the most technologically advanced and supposedly secure country on the planet is somewhat understandable, because the official line is absolutely untenable, because there is no LEGAL proof, that Bin Laden (or Al Quada) was responsible for 9-11, but a massive amount of valid evidence exists to show that elements of the official story (itself a conspiracy theory because it is not verifiable), are false. It is not possible, however, to use the newly discovered evidence as the basis for a conclusion about what actually happened and who was responsible. At least not yet. There are many indications, and there is a long trail of evidence suggesting US government complicity, but that is all there is. That much is a theory, but the evidence itself is comprised of facts. That evidence can not be dismissed simply because the theories that are wrapped around them are inconclusive. The proverbial baby cannot be thrown out with the bath water.
TRUE

Page 21
Frater Plecticus
QUOTE
OCTOBER 28--Vice President *** Cheney's top aide was indicted today on perjury, false statement, and obstruction of justice charges in connection with a special counsel's probe into the leaking of a CIA officer's identity.
TRUE

User posted image
9-11>afghanistan>iraq>indictment>prison>?

Page 22
Frater Plecticus
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
OCTOBER 28--Vice President *** Cheney's top aide was indicted today on perjury, false statement, and obstruction of justice charges in connection with a special counsel's probe into the leaking of a CIA officer's identity.
TRUE

User posted image
9-11>afghanistan>iraq>indictment>prison>?

Page 22
Frater Plecticus
There are plenty of violations of federal law to be found around the Niger uranium forgeries, and I expect Fitzgerald has found most if not all of them by now. When the president made his 2003 State of the Union address, and referred to Iraq's efforts to procure uranium in "an African country," the source of his allegation was a cache of documents that had been turned over to the American embassy in Rome under mysterious circumstances...

Whoever forged these documents and introduced them into the American intelligence stream is guilty of violating
[18 USC 1001]:

    "Whoever, in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative, or judicial branch of the Government of the United States, knowingly and willfully– (1) falsifies, conceals, or covers up by any trick, scheme, or device a material fact; (2) makes any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or representation; or (3) makes or uses any false writing or document knowing the same to contain any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or entry; shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both."

And this law,

    "If two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense against the United States, or to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof in any manner or for any purpose, and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both."

[18 USC 371]

The laws cited above make it clear that both the "creation" and "use" of these documents was a felony.

The "cover up" of the documents' fraudulent nature was also a felony. Fraudulent statements about the veracity of the documents would also be a felony, i.e. Bush relying on them in his State of the Union address (the famous 16 words); and let's not forget Powell's reliance upon them at the UN as well as Condi's mushroom cloud speech.

If proved that government officials knew the documents were fraudulent then their criminal actions relating to such knowledge must be prosecuted.
TRUE

Page 23
Frater Plecticus
QUOTE
This charts military deaths in Iraq during the Libby indictment timeline. 1,590 died during the grand jury investigation from January 2004 to October 28, 2005.
http://cryptome.org/cia-dead/cia-leak-dead.htm
TRUE

page 24
Stallion 4
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
This charts military deaths in Iraq during the Libby indictment timeline. 1,590 died during the grand jury investigation from January 2004 to October 28, 2005.
http://cryptome.org/cia-dead/cia-leak-dead.htm
TRUE

page 24
Stallion 4
WORLD TRADE CENTER RESCUE HERO (William Rodriguez) SUES BUSH AND OTHERS UNDER RICO STATUTE, ALLEGES WILLFUL COMPLICITY IN ATTACKS THAT KILLED 3,000

Excerpt from the lawsuit:
99. Plaintiff notes also that there was a "power down"? condition in the South Tower, ostensibly due to the need to carry out a "cabling upgrade"? on the weekend of September 8-9, 2001. This could have afforded Enterprise demolition agents the opportunity to implant explosives in the South Tower, without being recorded on security cameras. Plaintiff notes further that Stratesec, a company of which Marvin Bush, the President's brother, was formerly a director, provided security in the WTC Complex.
http://www.911forthetruth.com/pages/RodriguezComplaint6.htm

Bush-Linked Company Handled Security for the WTC, Dulles and United
George W. Bush's brother was on the board of directors of a company providing electronic security for the World Trade Center, Dulles International Airport and United Airlines, according to public records. The company was backed by an investment firm, the Kuwait-American Corp., also linked for years to the Bush family.
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0204-06.htm

SECRECY SURROUNDS A BUSH BROTHER'S ROLE IN 9/11 SECURITY
Two planes hijacked on Sept. 11, 2001 were United Airlines planes, and another took off from Dulles International Airport; two, of course, slammed into the World Trade Center. But the Bush Administration has never disclosed the ties of a presidential brother (Marvin Bush) and the Bush family with the firm that intersected the weapons and targets on a day of national tragedy.
http://anderson.ath.cx:8000/911/hj05.html

Secrecy Surrounds 9/11 Investigation
...Such an investigation could reveal some embarrassing Bush family connections with a company “that intersected the weapons and targets on a day of national tragedy.” As Margie Burns reports in The American Reporter, an electronic daily newspaper, Marvin P. Bush, the president’s younger brother, was a principal in a company called Securacom (aka Stratesec) that provided security for the World Trade Center, United Airlines, and Dulles International Airport...
http://www.utne.com/web_special/web_specia...es/10292-1.html
TRUE

Page 26
Frater Plecticus
QUOTE
[/B]So, in conclusion, the practice of blaming "hermetically sealed terrorists" for the atrocities of 9-11, with NO EVIDENCE by KNOWINGLY using disinformation is a criminal offence, punishable by prison.
TRUE

Page 27
Frater Plecticus
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
[/B]So, in conclusion, the practice of blaming "hermetically sealed terrorists" for the atrocities of 9-11, with NO EVIDENCE by KNOWINGLY using disinformation is a criminal offence, punishable by prison.
TRUE

Page 27
Frater Plecticus
"We have to bear in mind that many of the individuals who were located in the WTC towers above the impact point were subjected to temperatures higher than cremation temperatures," Stolorow said. "Many of these people may never be identified because they were incinerated."
TRUE

Page 30
Frater Plecticus
QUOTE
"There are some samples that are literally just charcoal, and there's nothing to be gotten out of them. And that's about 10 percent of the samples, I would say, are just never going to work, Dr. McElfresh said.
TRUE

Page 31
Frater Plecticus
User posted image
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
"There are some samples that are literally just charcoal, and there's nothing to be gotten out of them. And that's about 10 percent of the samples, I would say, are just never going to work, Dr. McElfresh said.
TRUE

Page 31
Frater Plecticus
User posted image
1) I FOUND THIS PHOTO IN INTERNET
2) I PRESSED RIGHT CLICK (PC) OR CTRL CLICK (MAC) AND COPIED THE IMAGE LOCATION
3) I THEN CAME TO THE PHYSICS FORUM, LOGGED IN TO THIS FORUM THEN STARTED TO POST
4) SELECTED "IMG" FROM THE POST MENU.
5) PASTE THE IMAGE LOCATION WHEN ASKED TO. (FROM STEP 2)
TRUE

Page 33
Foxx
QUOTE
The 8 characteristics of GroupThink are as follows:

1. Illusion of Invulnerability - members believe the official story is beyond reproach

2. Collective Rationalization - members seek to discredit and explain away any 'red flags' which might be contrary to the official story

3. Illusion of Morality - members believe their decisions are morally correct, ignoring the ethical consequences of their decisions.

4. Excessive Stereotyping - the members construct negative stereotypes of any outside the group.
(lets classify them as CT's, tin-hats, etc.)

5. Pressure for Conformity - Members pressure any in the group who express arguements against the group's stereotypes, illusions, or committments, viewing such opposition as disloyalty.

6 Self-Censorship - members withhold their dissenting views and counter-arguments in fear of ostracization from the group.

7 Illusion of Unanimity - members perceive falsely that everyone agrees with the group's decision; silence is seen as consent.

8 Mindguards - Some members appoint themselves to the role of protecting the group from adverse information that might threaten group complacency.

The above list of characteristics can clearly be seen in any gathering of those who believe, support, and promote the 'official' story of 9/11.
NOT PROVEN, BUT GREAT OBSERVATIONS


Page 33
Frater Plecticus
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The 8 characteristics of GroupThink are as follows:

1. Illusion of Invulnerability - members believe the official story is beyond reproach

2. Collective Rationalization - members seek to discredit and explain away any 'red flags' which might be contrary to the official story

3. Illusion of Morality - members believe their decisions are morally correct, ignoring the ethical consequences of their decisions.

4. Excessive Stereotyping - the members construct negative stereotypes of any outside the group.
(lets classify them as CT's, tin-hats, etc.)

5. Pressure for Conformity - Members pressure any in the group who express arguements against the group's stereotypes, illusions, or committments, viewing such opposition as disloyalty.

6 Self-Censorship - members withhold their dissenting views and counter-arguments in fear of ostracization from the group.

7 Illusion of Unanimity - members perceive falsely that everyone agrees with the group's decision; silence is seen as consent.

8 Mindguards - Some members appoint themselves to the role of protecting the group from adverse information that might threaten group complacency.

The above list of characteristics can clearly be seen in any gathering of those who believe, support, and promote the 'official' story of 9/11.
NOT PROVEN, BUT GREAT OBSERVATIONS


Page 33
Frater Plecticus
I thought this document was relevant, as the quintessential reason for the geopolitical shift in American foreign policy towards (certain) Middle Eastern countries.

User posted image

This document below is  from at least September 12th, when both flights had been officially established already.

"...At ...8:48 am UA175 struck a tower...
...At approximately 9:08 am flight 11 struck the other tower..."

This is in opposite to the official story, where 'flight 11' hit first (remember that this is also the same flight, which wasn't listed at all in the BTS/FAA/ACARS database during that week!)
PRESENTED AS TRUTH

Page 34
Frater Plecticus
QUOTE
Members of the Scientific Panel Investigating Nine-eleven come from a variety of professional backgrounds.
   
General Statement by the Panel:

  [B]"We have found solid scientific grounds on which to question the interpretation put upon the events of September 11, 2001 by the Office of the President of the United States of America and subsequently propagated by the major media of western nations. Our analysis of the detailed evidence implies a staged attack employing a variety of deceptive arrangements. Indeed, every element of the September 11 attacks, including cellphone calls from fast-moving aircraft, has an alternate means of creation."
TRUE

page 36
Zoktoberfest
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Members of the Scientific Panel Investigating Nine-eleven come from a variety of professional backgrounds.
   
General Statement by the Panel:

  [B]"We have found solid scientific grounds on which to question the interpretation put upon the events of September 11, 2001 by the Office of the President of the United States of America and subsequently propagated by the major media of western nations. Our analysis of the detailed evidence implies a staged attack employing a variety of deceptive arrangements. Indeed, every element of the September 11 attacks, including cellphone calls from fast-moving aircraft, has an alternate means of creation."
TRUE

page 36
Zoktoberfest
You're either with us or you're with the terrorists. The ultimate global dichotomy, courtesy of mil/spec GPS controlled planes and our new pal- "Nuke Lite".---- I'm sure that C-130 that was hanging around, right in the middle of everything was the air-born control center of 911. The hijackers must have tripped out when the plane began to fly itself. Precision impact was needed, not amateur mayhem. By knowing the exact impact point, you could calculate the period of the wave traversing down the buildings immediately after the event.--- During the very convenient security stand-down at the WTC, two crews entered the building in the after hours. The labour and technically intensive, subterranean detail and the swift of foot, production oriented, above ground detail. The former wore protective clothing, used hand trucks and forklifts to transport cylindrical objects, calibration equipment and heavy strapping hardware. The latter carried faux control panels, junction boxes and conduit sections that came from nowhere and went to nowhere. The gifts they bore were trojan horses, disguised to perfection to appear as if they were always their. They entered stair wells and utility areas, consulted placement maps laid out by demolition experts who were there a few days before. After removing the self adhesive backing, they place and repeat. When the level installation is complete, they resupply and move to next. The small number of large units and the large number of small units await their sequential vertical programming from the ultra low frequency wave they are tuned to respond to. When they receive it, they go into active delay mode. You can't have the buildings fall down right after impact. You have to savour the moment. Every viewing person on earth, must witness the birth of the (not so new) New World Order. Since there are those pesky technical people out there, the "Official" failure mechanisms need sufficient time to run their course. Each horizontal array is counting down the same unit of time from the moment it read the impact wave. The "nuke-lites" in the basement have a second or two less to count down. When the timing sequence ends, ground zero begins. D-day (demolition day). First the legs are cut out. Then a plasma blasts ascends up through the elevator shafts and melts the center column and plumes out the top. Yes, the spire did disintegrate. It melted. Then to help out gravity, inter-level resistance was reduced. Floor after floor after floor and down comes the building. The presence of molten metal and high radiation counts weeks after the event- the impossible rate of collapse into its' own footprint- the excessive particulate plumage at the beginning of the collapse... SEALS THE DEAL. Guilty on all counts of unspeakable crimes and treason against the American people, on American soil, in order to subvert the constitution (patriot act) and install a 21st century Fascist Empirical Regime. May God- or whatever spiritual energy is out there- help us all.
NOT PROVED, BUT GREAT READING

Page 36
Frater Plecticus
QUOTE
The evidence would build. FBI Director Robert Mueller says that an essential clue came from one of the hijacked planes before it crashed. A flight attendant on American Flight 11, Amy Sweeney, had the presence of mind to call her office as the plane was hijacked and give them the seat numbers of the hijackers.

User posted image
PRESENTED AS TRUTH

This document was lodged in the US District Court of Maine by FBI Agent, James K. Lechner. It details the property found in Mohamed Atta's car and his bags that did not make it onto the flight out of Boston. The property includes his handwritten will in Arabic. The statement also describes a phone call which was made by a flight attendant during the hijack on American Airlines Flight 11.

“That was the first piece of hard evidence," says Mueller. "We could then go to the manifest, find out who was sitting in those seats and immediately conduct an investigation of those individuals, as opposed to taking all the passengers on the plane and going through a process of elimination.”
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/11/...ain521718.shtml


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The evidence would build. FBI Director Robert Mueller says that an essential clue came from one of the hijacked planes before it crashed. A flight attendant on American Flight 11, Amy Sweeney, had the presence of mind to call her office as the plane was hijacked and give them the seat numbers of the hijackers.

User posted image
PRESENTED AS TRUTH

This document was lodged in the US District Court of Maine by FBI Agent, James K. Lechner. It details the property found in Mohamed Atta's car and his bags that did not make it onto the flight out of Boston. The property includes his handwritten will in Arabic. The statement also describes a phone call which was made by a flight attendant during the hijack on American Airlines Flight 11.

“That was the first piece of hard evidence," says Mueller. "We could then go to the manifest, find out who was sitting in those seats and immediately conduct an investigation of those individuals, as opposed to taking all the passengers on the plane and going through a process of elimination.”
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/11/...ain521718.shtml


Investigators find a remarkable number of possessions left behind by the hijackers:

Two of Mohamed Atta's bags are found on 9/11.

They contain a handheld electronic flight computer, a simulator procedures manual for Boeing 757 and 767 aircraft, two videotapes relating to “air tours” of the Boeing 757 and 747 aircraft, a slide-rule flight calculator, a copy of the Koran, Atta's passport, his will, his international driver's license, a religious cassette tape, airline uniforms, a letter of recommendation, “education related documentation” and a note (see September 28, 2001) to other hijackers on how to mentally prepare for the hijacking.[B] [Associated Press, 10/5/01; Sydney Morning Herald, 9/15/01; Boston Globe, 9/18/01; Independent, 9/29/01]
Marwan Alshehhi's rental car is discovered at Boston's Logan Airport containing an Arabic language flight manual, a pass giving access to restricted areas at the airport, documents containing a name on the passenger list of one of the flights, and the names of other suspects. The name of the flight school where Atta and Alshehhi studied, Huffman Aviation, is also found in the car. [Los Angeles Times, 9/13/01]
A car registered to Nawaf Alhazmi is found at Washington's Dulles Airport on September 12. Inside is a copy of Atta's letter to the other hijackers, a cashier's check made out to a flight school in Phoenix, four drawings of the cockpit of a 757 jet, a box cutter-type knife, maps of Washington and New York, and a page with notes and phone numbers. [Arizona Daily Star, 9/28/01; Cox News Service, 10/21/01; Die Zeit, 10/1/02]
A rental car is found in an airport parking lot in Portland, Maine. Investigators are able to collect fingerprints and hair samples for DNA analysis. [Portland Press Herald, 10/14/01]
A Boston hotel room contains airplane and train schedules. [Sydney Morning Herald, 9/15/01]
FBI agents carry out numerous garbage bags of evidence from a Florida apartment where Saeed Alghamdi lived. [CNN, 9/17/01 (cool.gif]
Two days before 9/11, a hotel owner in Deerfield Beach, Florida, finds a box cutter left in a hotel room used by Marwan Alshehhi and two unidentified men. The owner checks the nearby trash and finds a duffel bag containing Boeing 757 manuals, three illustrated martial arts books, an 8-inch stack of East Coast flight maps, a three-ring binder full of handwritten notes, an English-German dictionary, an airplane fuel tester, and a protractor. The FBI seizes all the items when they are notified on September 12 (except the binder of notes, which the owner apparently threw away). [Miami Herald, 9/16/01; Associated Press, 9/16/01 (cool.gif]
In an apartment rented by Ziad Jarrah and Ahmed Alhaznawi, the FBI finds a notebook, videotape, and photocopies of their passports. [Miami Herald, 9/15/01]
In a bar the night before 9/11, after making predictions of a attack on America the next day, the hijackers leave a business card and a copy of the Koran at the bar. The FBI also recovers the credit card receipts from when they paid for their drinks and lap dances. [Associated Press, 9/14/01]
A September 13 security sweep of Boston airport's parking garage uncovers items left behind by the hijackers: a box cutter, a pamphlet written in Arabic, and a credit card. [Washington Post, 9/16/01]
A few hours after the attacks, suicide notes that some of the hijackers wrote to their parents are found in New York. Credit card receipts showing that some of the hijackers paid for flight training in the US are also found. [Los Angeles Times, 9/13/01]
A FedEx bill is found in a trash can at the Comfort Inn in Portland, Maine, where Atta stayed the night before 9/11. The bill leads to Dubai, United Arab Emirates, allowing investigators to determine much of the funding for 9/11. [Newsweek, 11/11/01; Times of London, 12/1/01] The hijackers past whereabouts can even be tracked by their pizza purchases. An expert points out: “Most people pay cash for pizza. These [hijackers] paid with a credit card. That was an odd thing.” [San Diego Union-Tribune, 9/3/02][B] “In the end, they left a curiously obvious trail—from martial arts manuals, maps, a Koran, Internet and credit card fingerprints.
Maybe they were sloppy, maybe they did not care, maybe it was a gesture of contempt of a culture they considered weak and corrupt.” [Miami Herald, 9/22/01] Note The New Yorker's quote of a former high-level intelligence official: “Whatever trail was left was left deliberately—for the FBI to chase.” [New Yorker, 10/1/01]
People and organizations involved: Saeed Alghamdi, Ahmed Alhaznawi, Ziad Jarrah, Nawaf Alhazmi, Huffman Aviation, Mohamed Atta, Marwan Alshehhi, Washington Dulles International Airport, Federal Bureau of Investigation
http://tinyurl.com/byva4
PRESENTED AS TRUTH

Page 38
Frater Plecticus
QUOTE
The sole case presented against Osama bin Laden & Al Qaeda for the 9/11 bombings was a white paper entitled, "Responsibility for the terrorist atrocities in the United States." Published in October 2001 by Tony Blair, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, this work acknowledges up front that it would not stand up in a court of law:

"This document does not purport to provide a prosecutable case against Usama Bin Laden in a court of law. Intelligence often cannot be used evidentially, due both to the strict rules of admissibility and to the need to protect the safety of sources. But on the basis of all the information available HMG is confident of its conclusions as expressed in this document." http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/page3682.asp

PRESENTED AS EXTRA-LEGAL PROOF

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The sole case presented against Osama bin Laden & Al Qaeda for the 9/11 bombings was a white paper entitled, "Responsibility for the terrorist atrocities in the United States." Published in October 2001 by Tony Blair, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, this work acknowledges up front that it would not stand up in a court of law:

"This document does not purport to provide a prosecutable case against Usama Bin Laden in a court of law. Intelligence often cannot be used evidentially, due both to the strict rules of admissibility and to the need to protect the safety of sources. But on the basis of all the information available HMG is confident of its conclusions as expressed in this document." http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/page3682.asp

PRESENTED AS EXTRA-LEGAL PROOF

On September 10, 2001, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld held a press conference to disclose that over $2,000,000,000,000 in Pentagon funds could not be accounted for. Rumsfeld stated: "According to some estimates we cannot track $2.3 trillion in transactions."

Such a disclosure normally would have sparked a huge scandal. However, the commencement of the attack on New York City and Washington in the morning would assure that the story remained buried. To the trillions already missing from the coffers, an obedient Congress terrorized by anthrax attacks would add billions more in appropriations to fight the "War on Terror."

The Controller of the Pentagon at the time of the attack was Dov Zakheim, who was appointed in May of 2001. Before becoming the Pentagon's money-manager, he was an executive at System Planning Corporation, a defense contractor specializing in electronic warfare technologies including remote-controlled aircraft systems. 2-3 Zakheim is a member of the Project for a New American Century and participated in the creation of its 2000 position paper Rebuilding America's Defenses which called for "a New Pearl Harbor."
TRUE

QUOTE
The Nuremberg Charter 1945

Since 1946 every human being has a legal duty to break national laws and disobey their Government to prevent it from waging a war of aggression. Although a person may not harm or kill another, we are all legally obliged by the Nuremberg law to take non-violent direct action to stop our government from starting a war.
TRUE

Page 40
Frater Plecticus
REGARDING WTC 7.....
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The Nuremberg Charter 1945

Since 1946 every human being has a legal duty to break national laws and disobey their Government to prevent it from waging a war of aggression. Although a person may not harm or kill another, we are all legally obliged by the Nuremberg law to take non-violent direct action to stop our government from starting a war.
TRUE

Page 40
Frater Plecticus
REGARDING WTC 7.....

A combination of an uncontrolled fire and the structural damage might have been able to bring the building down, some engineers said. But that would not explain steel members in the debris pile that appear to have been partly evaporated in extraordinarily high temperatures, Dr. Barnett said.
TRUE

QUOTE

8.2.8 Appendix C: Limited Metallurgical Examination
Two structural steel samples from the WTC site were observed to have unusual erosion patterns. One sample is believed to be from WTC 7 and the other from either WTC 1 or WTC 2

http://www.house.gov/science/hot/wtc/wtc-report/WTC_ch8.pdf
TRUE

Page 42
Frater Plecticus
QUOTE (->
QUOTE

8.2.8 Appendix C: Limited Metallurgical Examination
Two structural steel samples from the WTC site were observed to have unusual erosion patterns. One sample is believed to be from WTC 7 and the other from either WTC 1 or WTC 2

http://www.house.gov/science/hot/wtc/wtc-report/WTC_ch8.pdf
TRUE

Page 42
Frater Plecticus
I see nobody is being converted to the official conspiracy theory (OCT).

What I do see however, is more and more professionals, scientists and politicians willing to speak publicly surrounding the abnormalities in the 9-11 OCT.

2 illegal wars (one with occupation) leading to the direct death of at least 100 000 humans, on the most laughable and inadmissable evidence, that managed to apparently resolve the entire OCT (that occured in a physical, moral and economic vacuum.)
TRUE

Page 46
Frater Plecticus
QUOTE
The principal clue leading us to the existence of the rogue network behind 9/11 is the
“Angel is next” threat. Since hasty attempts to deny that this ever existed came soon after
9/11, we pause to document the evidence that this call really did take place.

In an interview with Tony Snow on Fox News Sunday, National Security Advisor
Condoleezza Rice confirmed that the September 11 threat against President Bush’s life
included a secret code name.

SNOW: Sept. 11 there was a report that there was a coded message that
said, “We’re going to strike Air Force One” that was using specific coded
language and made the threat credible. Is that true?


RICE: That is true.

SNOW: So we have a mole somewhere?

RICE: It’s not clear how this coded name was gotten. We’re a very open
society and I don’t think it’s any surprise to anyone that leaks happen. So,
I don’t know -- it’s possible the code name leaked a long time ago and was
just used.

SNOW: How on earth would that happen?

RICE: I don’t know. I don’t know. We’re obviously looking very hard at
the situation. But I will tell you that it was plenty of evidence from our
point of view to have special measures taken at that moment to make sure
the president was safe.
TRUE

Page 48
Frater Plecticus
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The principal clue leading us to the existence of the rogue network behind 9/11 is the
“Angel is next” threat. Since hasty attempts to deny that this ever existed came soon after
9/11, we pause to document the evidence that this call really did take place.

In an interview with Tony Snow on Fox News Sunday, National Security Advisor
Condoleezza Rice confirmed that the September 11 threat against President Bush’s life
included a secret code name.

SNOW: Sept. 11 there was a report that there was a coded message that
said, “We’re going to strike Air Force One” that was using specific coded
language and made the threat credible. Is that true?


RICE: That is true.

SNOW: So we have a mole somewhere?

RICE: It’s not clear how this coded name was gotten. We’re a very open
society and I don’t think it’s any surprise to anyone that leaks happen. So,
I don’t know -- it’s possible the code name leaked a long time ago and was
just used.

SNOW: How on earth would that happen?

RICE: I don’t know. I don’t know. We’re obviously looking very hard at
the situation. But I will tell you that it was plenty of evidence from our
point of view to have special measures taken at that moment to make sure
the president was safe.
TRUE

Page 48
Frater Plecticus
The US has detained more than 80,000 people in facilities from Afghanistan to Cuba since the attacks on the World Trade Centre four years ago, the Pentagon said yesterday. The disclosure comes at a time of growing unease about Washington's treatment of prisoners in its "war on terror" and Europe's unknowing help in the CIA's practice of rendition.  http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/st...1645305,00.html
TRUE

page 49
Arthur (Adoucette)
QUOTE
Detained is not the same as kept imprisoned.
FALSE
Don't Believe the Official S
I believe that the government hires shills to spread disinformation througout the internet as well as the mainstream media found on T.V.

If you want to know more about government hired shills who populate message boards go to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill


Want to see another "coincidence" about the 9/11 attacks? Ok, click the link below:


http://www.hereinreality.com/insidertrading.html


How can people believe and trust the official 9/11 story the government is telling when we all know about Operation Northwoods:

Operation Northwoods or Northwoods was the code name for various false flag actions, including domestic terror attacks (such as involving the use of "hijacked" planes as missiles) on U.S. soil, proposed in 1962 by senior U.S. Department of Defense leaders to generate U.S. public support for military action against Cuba. The proposal was presented in a document entitled "Justification for US Military Intervention in Cuba," a draft memorandum pdf) written by the Department of Defense (DoD) and Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS) representative to the Caribbean Survey Group. The draft memo was presented by the JCS to Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara on March 13 with one paragraph approved, as a preliminary submission for planning purposes. However, McNamara rejected the proposal. In addition, the existence of Operation Northwoods was often dismissed by the general U.S. public as an unfounded "conspiracy theory" until the draft memorandum was declassified in recent years through a Freedom of Information Act request by the National Security Archive.

References:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

Below is the actual Declassified Historical Memorandum for the Secretary of Defense "Justification for U.S. Military Intervention in Cuba" (1962).

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/doc1.pdf
frater plecticus
The Northwoods document PROVES NOTHING.

It does, however, provide historical and strategic context.

But these identifications are all partial only, different facets of the Diamond Truth.

They lied, and continue to lie about what happened before 9-11, during 9-11, and after 9-11.


CAN WE GET BACK TO THE WTC 7 PHYSICS ANALYSIS, PLEASE ?





RECOMMENDED CONSPIRACY THEORY/ANALYSIS SITE HERE
http://www.team8plus.org/forum.php
Don't Believe the Official S
I wasn't trying to prove anything. I was just making the general viewers think about the history of the U.S. government and its history of deceptions. General viewers can then make the decision to relate those things to 9 / 11. It's also important to know that Operation Northwoods really does make people more aware of the many reasons why we Americans shouldn't always take what the Government says as gospel. I'm trying to help my fellow brainwashed Americans realize that the official 9/11 story could potentially be a sham, without having to use physics, but rather, through historical analogy.

Always remember that not everyone is familiar with complex physics calculations and such. I'm just trying to make things easier for the average general viewer out there, because not everyone is knowledgeable in physics. However, as Operation Northwoods doesn't disprove anything about the official 9/11 story, it helps put things in perspective. THAT WAS MY INTENTION. Hopefully people will be more open-minded to the possibility that the 9/11 attack was a false-flag operation, since historically, the U.S. government has engaged in such operations in the past. wink.gif

To Frater Plecticus:

I also doubt that engaging in a continuous physics debate about 9/11 would change the repetitive nature of government shills. I notice this pattern all over the internet, and that is, no matter what type of irrefutable evidence is presented, the shill will continue to manipulate those calculations and deny everything. Trust me, you will find yourself in a loop hole and back at sqaure one against these shills. It happens all the time. That's their goal, they want to put every debate back to square one. You're falling for it, and that's exactly what they want, because they know that by derailing debates into an an endless loop would serve to paint a perception in the general public that the 9/11 conspiracy debates are hopeless. That's their main goal -- to taint the image and credibility of 9/11 conspiracy debates.

Hope that helps.
a_ht
QUOTE (Don't Believe the Official S+Nov 20 2005, 02:38 PM)

I also doubt that engaging in a continuous physics debate about 9/11 would change the repetitive nature of government shills. I notice this pattern all over the internet, and that is, no matter what type of irrefutable evidence is presented, the shill will continue to manipulate those calculations and deny everything. Trust me, you will find yourself in a loop hole and back at sqaure one against these shills. It happens all the time. That's their goal, they want to put every debate back to square one. You're falling for it, and that's exactly what they want, because they know that by derailing debates into an an endless loop would serve to paint a perception in the general public that the 9/11 conspiracy debates are hopeless. That's their main goal -- to taint the image and credibility of 9/11 conspiracy debates.

Hope that helps.

Yes, and if we don't succeed within 60 pages, you risk disappearing into thin air. Be afraid, be very afraid.
metamars
QUOTE
I also doubt that engaging in a continuous physics debate about 9/11 would change the repetitive nature of government shills. I notice this pattern all over the internet, and that is, no matter what type of irrefutable evidence is presented, the shill will continue to manipulate those calculations and deny everything. Trust me, you will find yourself in a loop hole and back at sqaure one against these shills.



PART 1

I'd like to make a (no doubt futile) attempt to elevate the quality of the debate, although I will most likely accomplish nothing more than sharing a bit of my philosophy and half-baked suspicions. By "half-baked", I mean my views are based on experience, but I haven't made an extensive survey of internet forums to see if even my basically qualitative observations can be extended beyond physorg.com and apollohoax.net.

I will later (I hope) amplify this post. For now this will have to do.

First off, I don't like the term "shill", because it implies that you actually know secret information about your opponent that you really don't. I too, strongly suspect that forums are being manipulated. Manipulation can take these forms:

(in the following, I will refer to the posters who appear to be believers in the official Government fairy tales as GCT, which means "Government Conspiracy Theorists", and those who who appear to believe in LIHOP or MIHOP as CT, or "Conspiracy Theorists" )

1) GCT who "spam" the boards with ridiculous arguments, straw man arguments, etc. which they could have refuted themselves very easily. BTW, I've recently realized that one form of straw man arguments is to attack a version of a CT position that has a very low probability of being correct - and this aspect of low probability is readily apparent to anybody with even half a brain.
2) GCT who who make arguments, which are effectively answered by CT, (and often CT don't just answer, but demolish those arguments), who then completely ignore these inconvenient facts, but only question, say, one or two details of the CT response, but then immediately go on and list a bunch of other arguments, which are often equally poor as their previous post. One can think of these types of posters as "popes" - they never admit their mistakes. One can only assume that they consider themselves infallible.
3) CT who are very inarticulate, to the point seeming dumb.
4) CT who make essentially emotional arguments, often spewing a lot of hatred in the process, who certainly appear irrational and have no place in a rational debate (least of all in what I'd hope would be a mostly scientific forum)

The function of members of 3) or 4), if they really be shills, is, of course, to attempt to discredit CT'ers in general.

5) GCT "nit pickers", whose function seems to be to demoralize you by exhausting your patience over utter trivialites.
6) GCT who claim specialized knowledge technical backgrounds in physics or engineering, but still make hand-waiving arguments and hand-waiving pseudo refutations. It's well known in physics, anyway (I don't know much of anything about engineering), that when you want to show somebody else is wrong, you will basically either show that their premises were incorrect or doubtful (yes, physicists really do make calculations based on guesses and approximations), or that there was an error in their mathematical derivations, or that their theory is contradicted by experiment (which typically points to faulty premises; the peer review process weeds out most of the math errors).



However, wrt 1) - 5), I believe that all people are fundamentally irrational, critical thinking skills (which could counteract this irrationality) are the exception, rather than the norm (here in the US, anyway), and I often hear people in everyday life espousing things as "true" which strike me as not just wrong, but ridulously and patently wrong.

Also, in the case of physics and engineering, even the intuition of "experts" is of no value in terms of definitive proof, though it can be of great value in attacking problems efficiently, since it can narrow down the list of approaches to, hopefully, a short list of those likely to bear fruit. As for the intuitive and qualitative arguments of laymen (which some actually mistake for proof), in the case of both CT and GCT, well, how should I put this? Their intuition is certainly no more proof than that of experts, and furthermore often shows their lack of basic physics knowledge.

Thus, in principle, you don't NEED pro-government shills. Consider the re-election of GW Bush. Need I say more?

Perhaps a good book to read on the quality of mind so widely evident is the book "Dumpth". (I haven't read it, but did hear a description of it long ago.)

Having said all that, and considering GW Bush's well deserved drop in the polls since the election, it's clear that even the irrational "unwashed masses" do tend to catch on, even if way too late. tongue.gif

However, most GCT posters seem to me to display the "popish" characteristic, in one degree or another. They never admit that they were wrong even on isolated details, even when doing so in a cumulative argument would NOT, necessarily, invalidate their whole argument just by itself.

I find that fascinating - and highly suspicious.




Don't Believe the Official S
Metamars, my use of the word "shill" applies to A_HT. He ADMITTED earlier in this thread that he was an NIST Shill. Are you not aware of this?

For more on "shill" go to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill

QUOTE (Metamars+)
Thus, in principle, you don't NEED pro-government shills. Consider the re-election of GW Bush. Need I say more?


Actually you need to shut up and read this link.... Confessions of a government shill
metamars
QUOTE
Actually you need to shut up and read this link


I will do no such thing. You are as entitled to your opinions as I am to mine.

Since I'm not denying the existence of shills, but questioning the mentality of people who automatically assume that anybody who disagrees with them must be a shill, I don't see what your problem is.
metamars
QUOTE
However, most GCT posters seem to me to display the "popish" characteristic, in one degree or another. They never admit that they were wrong even on isolated details, even when doing so in a cumulative argument would NOT, necessarily, invalidate their whole argument just by itself.



Another observation that seems to apply universally to GCT's: They are silent on the issue of Professor Steven Jones' call for a full, international investigation of the WTC collapses.


To those of you in the CT camp who devote lots of time to these forums, in the hope that you will spread 911 truth:

Does this not tell you anything? Please consider taking a 1 week vacation from posting, and instead, print out copies of Steven Jones' draft paper, as well as Hoffman's dust/energy paper, and get thee hence to a physics, applied math, and engineering department at a university near you, and spread the news.

If this is a problem, please consider email (which is certainly inferior, as your email may just end up in a spam box.)

My guess is that less than 1% of physicists in the US are aware of Professor Jones' paper.

Well, preaching to the choir ( i.e., fellow CT's ) is not going to do anything ito awareness in the physics community. And even GCT's who aren't government shills are not going to spread the word.

It is left as an exercize to determine who that leaves. tongue.gif

At the very least, we may get some more serious posters on this board with serious technical backgrounds, which can elevate the quality of the debate.
zoktoberfest
News flash!!!!

The Indianapolis Racing Commission has completed its' first open qualifications event. Experimenting with the new format for perhaps this year only, vehicles from outside the normal racing venues were allowed to run the grueling 4 hour pre-trials for a $1000 registration fee. The automotive community, however, was left dumbfounded, when a stock 1972 "vista cruiser", a suburban station-wagon, featured on the hit sitcom "That 70s Show", finished 2 seconds under the qualifying time. The vehicle which had 167,000 mi. on an engine that burnt a quart of oil a week was quickly taken to its' gate and whisked off on a trailer. The racing community that besieged the area was told that the car that made a century of racing evolution irrelevant, would be crushed and sent to Asia for recycling. Anyone who required an explanation was directed to the PhysOrg Forum to await a schneibsters' "masterclass" posting on this subject. Expect an excellent mathematical dissertation, that will take you back to your college days. Keg party debauchery, not included. Next week---- Pigs can fly and why people who say otherwise are just mentally challenged, pathological LIARS.
frater plecticus
User posted image

user posted image


Saludos de España, Hermanos
RealityCheck
Hello “metamars”, “frater plecticus” & “Don't Believe the Official Story”.


Hi “METAMARS”:

Thank you for pointing out to some over-zealous posters here that there ARE some people in the world (I’m an Australian) who can BOTH be UNIMPRESSED with your president and his cronies while ALSO AT THE SAME TIME be JUST as UNIMPRESSED with the ‘PHYSICS’ (as opposed to ‘political’) case being made for ‘collapse’ other than from the apparent causes (as opposed to ‘demolition’ etc.).

THAT, after all is the ultimate definition of ‘independent thought’ from a totally disinterested party; ie, that one CAN AND DOES (based on the facts as HE sees them so far) disagree with BOTH camps, despite the ‘threat’ of “if you’re not WITH us, you’re AGAINST us”; the point being that such TOTAL ‘impartiality’ is a concept which a NON-independent mind can NEVER ‘accommodate’.... a sad truth that is continually being demonstrated by those with an ‘axe to grind’ rather than discussing the ‘physics’ without the ‘colouring’ of ‘personal’ interest/agenda. I’m not saying that things are to be considered , as it were, ‘in a vacuum’; I’m only saying that any ‘result’ dependent to a great degree on ‘emotion’ is ‘suspect’, and highly ‘vulnerable’ to easy ‘dismissal’ by ‘the other side’ just on that fact alone. So less of the ‘rhetoric’ and ‘character assassination’ (of the independent posters here at least), and more of ‘deliberate consideration of the physics/commonsense’ involved in this question.

Anyhow, thanks again for recognising that I am NOT a ‘shill’ (anyone who knows me knows of my hard-won and jealously-guarded EXCESSIVELY-INDEPENDENT PERSPECTIVE on MANY ‘established’ views in MANY ‘fields’ of ‘orthodoxy’.

...and speaking of ‘shill’ accusations.....


Hi “DON'T BELIEVE THE OFFICIAL STORY”:

Regarding the treatment of “a_ht”: Doesn’t it strike you as even a LITTLE ‘inconsistent’ that people are lambasted BOTH for supposedly lying AND ALSO for telling the truth?

I mean, here’s this "a_ht" guy, who obviously is honest enough to say where he works, and he is ‘crucified’ for being HONEST! What does this ‘inconsistent’ behaviour towards others tell everyone here about the ‘genuine-ness’ and ‘objectivity’ quotient in the ‘crucifiers’? My advice is, stop all these unhelpful tactics and concentrate ON WHAT IS BEING OFFERED to the point (ie, the PHYSICS/COMMON SENSE) of the original question. Otherwise it’s not a very good ‘look’ for those who crucify BOTH the people who you suspect of lying AND the people who are obviously NOT lying. See what I mean?


Hi “FRATER PLECTICUS”:

You asserted: “Reality Check is not a credible source. This is from page 8....etc.” and exampled my assertion that there was no substantial central support from the ‘core structure’ in the tower design.

Are you by any chance asserting that that insubstantial tracery of woefully-ductile and deformable/disconnectable steel beams you pictured, which in the event proved nothing more than a readily-collapsable/compressible/fracturable ‘stack’ of glorified trestle-tables, can be compared to the CONTIGUOUS RE-INFORCED CONCRETE ‘spine’ of former, MORE OVERWHELMINGLY ROBUST (as in ability to withstand EXTREME compression/tension/fragmentation stresses) building designs?

I would like to point out that any ‘concrete’ used in the tower design was NEITHER ‘contiguous’ all round and up/down, NOR ‘uniformly re-inforced’ in the usual manner that ensures BOTH COMPRESSION AND TENSION STRENGTH AS WELL AS FRAGMENTATION RESISTENCE; but INSTEAD, in the tower design, was ‘effectively plastered’ AROUND the steel beams; thus making that ‘rendering’ technique highly-vulnerable to cracking/breaking-off-in-lumps due to horrendous acoustical vibrations in the the air/steel beams during the collapse chaos (such ‘vibration destruction’ methods are amply and practically demonstrated every day in industry ‘mechanical-vibration-pulverisation’ methods; as well as in hospitals, where surgeons utilise soundwaves/vibrations to pulverise hard calcifications (kidney-stones/gall stones) during non-invasive surgery).

Anyone who still thinks that a self-evidently-inadequate/unstable-----in the unusual and EXTREME circumstances/loads involved in 9/11 events)-----‘STEEL WICKERWORK’ core structure can IN ANY WAY be compared to a contiguous, uniformly-reinforced-throughout, concrete ‘TALL BUNKER’ core structure, has only to see for themselves that, plain, un-reinforced STONE is used by Nature to hold up even the tallest of her STONE MOUNTAINS against the strongest ‘quakes, with minimal or no ‘compromise/collapse’ resulting. And we can see WHY she might NOT opt for STEEL WICKERWORK as a REPLACEMENT ‘core-design feature’ in future 'mountain-building’.

So let's all use common sense in this regard, instead of wishful thinking....as wishful thinking will not prevent an oh-so-many-ways vulnerable and readily-deformable/-disconnectable ‘wickerwork’ structure from coming down onto your head at the most unexpected of moments (how many of us have had a ‘wickerwork’/’folding’ chair FAIL CATASTROPHICALLY under us after we gained a little too much weight, and so OVERLOADED the chair’s material/connector/construction-design capabilities, heh FRATER? hehehe.

Ciao for now from ‘Down Under’, mateys! And good luck to all genuine participants in this thread.

RealityCheck.
.
Foxx
QUOTE
Originally posted by Schneibster 
Why should I repost quotes over and over and over again? That's why it's a thread, and why it's stored on a server. Go look at them; everybody else saw them. In order to look at past pages, click on the numbers on the left side of the header of the page you are reading this on; the ones right after the link that says, "Pages," would be a good choice. I suggest looking at page 39; try searching on the word "this," and when you find one that's underlined, try clicking on it. If it goes to Firehouse magazine, and it's an interview of a fire captain or chief, it probably immediately precedes the quoted material that I took from it. This would be particularly likely to be true in a post that I made, so you might want to keep an eye out for that.


Thanks, Schneibster. That solved the problem. I was looking for 'links' such as...

Battalion Chief John Norman:
http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/mag.../gz/norman.html

Deputy Chief Peter Hayden:
http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/mag.../gz/hayden.html

Captain Chris Boyle:
http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/mag...e/gz/boyle.html

Many forums also allow you to implant 'hidden' links in the text such as this:

Well, that's great if you scroll over every underlined word in this format, but I've noticed that some people also use the 'underline' simply to emphasize the quote... as well as another (unusual to me) underline of random words which lead to advertisements.

I'm not suggesting that there is anything 'wrong' or 'sinister' in the latter practice... only that it confuses the underline feature as a means of generating 'links' which I recognize such as this:

http://foxxaero.homestead.com/newsplash.html

Alright, so NOW I see the references from which you've drawn, which if I understand from what you have previously been trying to show is that:

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Originally posted by Schneibster 
Why should I repost quotes over and over and over again? That's why it's a thread, and why it's stored on a server. Go look at them; everybody else saw them. In order to look at past pages, click on the numbers on the left side of the header of the page you are reading this on; the ones right after the link that says, "Pages," would be a good choice. I suggest looking at page 39; try searching on the word "this," and when you find one that's underlined, try clicking on it. If it goes to Firehouse magazine, and it's an interview of a fire captain or chief, it probably immediately precedes the quoted material that I took from it. This would be particularly likely to be true in a post that I made, so you might want to keep an eye out for that.


Thanks, Schneibster. That solved the problem. I was looking for 'links' such as...

Battalion Chief John Norman:
http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/mag.../gz/norman.html

Deputy Chief Peter Hayden:
http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/mag.../gz/hayden.html

Captain Chris Boyle:
http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/mag...e/gz/boyle.html

Many forums also allow you to implant 'hidden' links in the text such as this:

Well, that's great if you scroll over every underlined word in this format, but I've noticed that some people also use the 'underline' simply to emphasize the quote... as well as another (unusual to me) underline of random words which lead to advertisements.

I'm not suggesting that there is anything 'wrong' or 'sinister' in the latter practice... only that it confuses the underline feature as a means of generating 'links' which I recognize such as this:

http://foxxaero.homestead.com/newsplash.html

Alright, so NOW I see the references from which you've drawn, which if I understand from what you have previously been trying to show is that:

Firefighter statements tend to support the belief that knowledgeable officials on the scene abandoned fire-fighting efforts towards WTC 7 due to a 'general belief amongst officials' (a 'prediction' if you like) that WTC 7 was 'destined to collapse'.


Am I 'correct' so far in my analysis of what you are trying to say? and...

Do you believe that the references / quotes you have provided above supports that position?

I presume that your referencing these quotes is meant to counter 'claims' which have been made in regard to Larry Silversteins famous "Pull it" statement.

As for myself, I have never been swayed one way or another regarding the use of this televised 'quote' as "PROOF" of anything.

I have not personally seen any irrefutable evidence related to this comment to show he meant 'it' as referring to the 'fire-fighting effort' any more or less as referring to the 'demolition' of the building.

I really couldn't care less about Silversteins comments. There is no 'evidence' there outside of the subjective interpretation of the hearer.

In my view, It is irrelevant to the investigation.

Forgetting about the Silverstein comment, and turning towards an analysis of the scientific aspects of these witness testimonies, (with regard to their support of the NIST graphic that there was a huge hole in the south face of WTC 7 caused by debris falling from WTC 1)...

User posted image

Having investigated your 'witness testimony', I don't see any evidence of these 'officials' supporting the idea that there was a massive hole (structural damage) to the south face of WTC 7.

Battalion Chief John Norman simply states that he was on the west face of WTC 7 and saw damage at the southwest corner...

QUOTE
"You couldn’t really see from where we were on the west face of the building, but at the edge of the south face you could see that it was very heavily damaged."


Deputy Chief Peter Hayden says:

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
"You couldn’t really see from where we were on the west face of the building, but at the edge of the south face you could see that it was very heavily damaged."


Deputy Chief Peter Hayden says:

"we were pretty sure that 7 World Trade Center would collapse. Early on, we saw a bulge in the southwest corner between floors 10 and 13, and we had put a transit on that and we were pretty sure she was going to collapse".


IF Hayden is referring to the 'bulge' you tried to point out above he seems to be referring to the southwest corner damage...

user posted image

... then it seems apparent (to me) that he also is referring to the southwest corner, not to any 'alleged' damage to the center of the south face.

This leaves the 'testimony' of Captain Chris Boyle:

QUOTE
"We were told to go to Greenwich and Vesey and see what’s going on. So we go there and on the north and east side of 7 it didn’t look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors. Debris was falling down on the building and it didn’t look good. "


What does he mean by "Greenwich & Vesey" ?

As far as I can determine these streets are on the opposite sides of the Trade Center and have no intersecting corners. Looking at a map of the Trade Center, it is difficult to determine what his viewing vantage point was from...

User posted image

As there is no evidence speaking of stuctural damage to the center of the south side outside of the 'apparent' statements of the above officers, I would have to conclude that Boyle was also referring to the southwest corner damage (as were Norman & Hayden).

In simple terms, I see absolutely NO evidence at all that there was massive damage to the center south face of WTC 7 as implied by the above NIST schematic.

Again I ask ... how does NIST conclude that there was this 'postulated' structural damage?

Do you think they are withholding photos or videos of this alleged damage?

Do you have any other witness testimony which tends to support your alleged 20 story hole to the center south face of WTC 7 ???






metamars
QUOTE
Do you have any other witness testimony which tends to support your alleged 20 story hole to the center south face of WTC 7


Methinks you are partaking of a red herring. Who cares if there was a 20 story hole, or not? How on earth would asymetrical damage contribute to the symmetry of the near-perfectly symmetrical collapse, even if it could somehow enable a collapse of any type?

Put it this way, if Tucker Carlson had showed the collapse on TV, it would have been over, 20 story hole or not.
yesitdid
QUOTE (Foxx+Nov 19 2005, 06:15 AM)
QUOTE (yesitdid+Nov 19 2005, 05:42 AM)
In the NIST WTC 7 report (appendix L) , figures L-23a and L-23b show the south face of WTC 7 and the debris on Vesey Street(which ran along the south side of WTC7. In the pictures you see the distinctive WTC tower perimeter columns in the debris right up to WTC7, some appear to actually be leaning on the WTC 7. Also noticeable is the large gap in the face of WTC7 though the smoke and dust partially obscure the view into #7, in L-23a damaged columns are visible (directly under the "Wille Cirone" copyright label on the photo.)

If facing the south side of WTC7 the SW corner would be to your left.

Photos L-22a&b show the west face of WTC7 . In 22a south is to the upper right of the photo, 22b is looking from the north, to the south towards the location of the towers which puts the west face of #7 in the left side of the street.. Once again perimeter columns are noticeable in the debris on the street. The damage in the photos clearly shows it to be in the SW corner of the building.

Thanks, YID.

I don't have unlimited time to spend on all these questions, so direct links are very helpful to expedite understanding.

You claim 'document x' states "Blah, blah, blah".

Great! how long does it take to add a link to the document/reference you are referring to?... http:// tada tada...

How hard is that?

Apart from some 'source/reference' your statements mean nothing to me.

Please don't waste all of our time with rhetorical statements that "x" is stated 'somewhere' without providing the link to the 'evidence' you wish to support.

Links make our lives so much easier. Thanks

I am so sorry that I did not provide a direct link. I have the docuement I refer to stored on my 'puter and thus I do not have the complete url.

When I saved it the default name of the docuement was "WTC7appendixl.pdf"

It took a little while since NIST's site was experiencing problems but it is at
http://wtc.nist.gov/progress_report_june04/appendixl.pdf


I must point out that you still state you have no firefighter witness reports of massive damage to the south face of WTC 7 despite the fact the Boyle states exactly that.

Your map shows Vesey Street is on the south side of WTC 7. How hard was that?

What does he mean by "Greenwich and Vesey"? He meant "Greenwich and then Vesey" . Greenwich after all terminates at the north side of WTC7! (find a map of Manhattan , it is there.)He came south along Greenwich to the street that runs along the north side of WTC 7, traveled east to the NE corner of WTC7, south along West Broadway to Vesey. He states that no damage was visible on the north and east sides of #7 but that there was major damage to the south side. It is quite easy to see that if he had been on the east side of #7 and makes no mention of the west side, that in order to view the south side he rounded the building from the east. Otherwise he would have to have backtracked and gone all the way around WTC 7 to then be on the western edge of the south side. How you can then twist this to have him speaking about the SW corner defies all logic. No wonder you characterize my last post on the pictures as "blah, blah , blah". It might just show you were wrong, again.
zoktoberfest
Very credible estimations for accelerated mass potential of the upper section of the south tower. When you need computational fire power schneibster is "da man". Seriously, it's good stuff. Something tells me, however, that he never wielded a framing hammer or tried to hit a golf ball 300 yrds. Force transference is maximum to the south tower base only when delivered dead on along the vertical axis of the center shafts. The angled top section required that the center shaft be severed. That created a significant skewing of the alignment interface along the vertical axis. In other words the hammer face (center shaft, upper sect.) was not impacting even close to squarely on the nail head (center shaft of lower sect). Swing a 28 oz. framing hammer aggressively on plane and you can drive a 4" nail in 2 blows. Miss the sweet spot and you become a danger to yourself and others.
Too much emphasis on the available accelerated mass and not enough on the definitive vector force geometry
during delivery. Every golfer in the world knows exactly what I'm talking about. Big muscles coupled to poor swing mechanics produce extremely bad golf shots.
RealityCheck
Hi "zoktoberfest".

I venture to suggest that before each level's outer walls were in turn destroyed, they would in effect 'funnel' falling debris and 'focus' extreme vibrations towards their 'common focus', most of which focus area would co-incide with the 'core' structure. If so, then the 'central' steelwork would have been experienceing vastly-AMPLIFIED assaults from material accumulation/collision forces AS WELL AS 'focused concentrations' of destructive vibrations unleashed by such chaos.

My previous posts elaborate on these and other relevant common-sense/experiential observations made by someone far removed from the 'fray' of accusations and counter-accusations which seems to characterise many posts here. I'm not myself interested in such futility, but am merely posting out of a sense of objectivity and fair play (most Australians pride themselves on such things....me included, hehehe). Good luck all the way from 'Down Under', mate!

RealityCheck.
.
Schneibster
Faux, as I predicted, no testimony is sufficient for you.

And you don't appear to be able to use maps, either; mapquest and yahoo both tell me that Greenwich comes down toward Vesey, but stops at Barclay street at the north side of the former site of 7 WTC. It apparently used to cross the site of the WTC, before the WTC was built; thus, it appears on both sides, north and south. It used to run southeast/northwest directly through the center of the 7 WTC site, and the remainder of the WTC site as well. So basically, you come down Greenwich to Barclay, then you have to go down either West Broadway or Washington to get to Vesey; there was also a pedestrian bridge over Vesey linking the 7 WTC site to the rest of the WTC. Greenwich and Vesey would therefore be out in front of 7 WTC on Vesey.

The testimony of Capt. Boyle is the most coherent and descriptive, but both Boyle and Dpty. Chief Hayden noted that they saw sufficient damage to 7 WTC that they expected it to collapse. Boyle further notes both the southwest corner damage, and AS A SEPARATE ITEM, the 20-story hole in the center of the face of the building, as I showed in the quotes I gave. Furthermore, pictures that show a small portion of the damage (not the entire face, but according to Opel, the bottom of the hole), as well as several tower perimeter sections (supporting the contention that they were thrown around, and that more than one section, or a piece made up of several sections that had not come apart, struck 7 WTC) are available. I have searched high and low, and there are no other descriptions or pictures of the south face of 7 WTC after the fall of 1 WTC.

Coupled with the NIST report, I now have three sources: the picture, the NIST report, and Capt. Boyle's testimony. In addition, there is Dpty. Chief Hayden's statement that they had measured the building with a transit and it was deformed, indicating severe structural damage. Given all of this, I am confident that the building was damaged by flying perimeter column sections (at least) from the collapse of 1 WTC, severely enough that, perhaps even without the fire, it would no longer have been usable; with the fire (which Hayden describes as "a heavy body of fire" and states, "we made no attempt to fight it") and the exposure of the support columns in the building over multi-story spans due to the damage, a small amount of weakening due to lost elasticity and yield strength, both of which are lost sufficiently by the time 600C is reached to completely explain what happened, would have been enough to compromise the building's structural integrity and bring it down. But I don't expect that ANY evidence will convince you, and I am frankly tired of dealing with your lies and your obfuscation.

Anybody who is posting on the Internet and doesn't have the sense to check the underlined word "this" immediately preceding a quote, particularly when the remaining text in the context states clearly that the author is providing not only a quote but a link to the source of the quoted information, and who doesn't have the least idea how to use on-line maps, has absolutely no business posting in the first place. I am not here to teach you how to use a fork, either. You lie, you obfuscate, you deny, you confuse the issue, and you are completely unaware of how to make use of facilities that are as plain as the nose that presumably sticks out of the front of your head directly over your stinking pie-hole. Get your mommy to show you how to work the computer, please; when you've figured it out in a year or two come back and talk to the adults.
frater plecticus
CAN WE GET BACK TO A PHYSICS ANALYSIS OF THE WTC7 COLLAPSE ?

user posted image

WHAT HAPPENED IN THE EXACT MOMENT THAT LED TO THE SEQUENCE OF EVENTS THAT CAUSED WTC 7 TO COLLAPSE ?


THERE ARE SOME 3D MODELS OF THE WTC BULDINGS AT THIS LINK:
http://www.greatbuildings.com/buildings/Wo...ade_Center.html
Schneibster
QUOTE (Faux+)
Undoubtedly, metamars (and others) have addressed these 'complaints' way back on pages 15 - 20.  The 'Scheneibster' posts sophist boogie-woogie every once in a while to say that these 'have never been addressed'... but most certainly 'Schneibsters' analyses have been responded to quite adequately 'way back when'.
I didn't see this or I'd have reamed you for it when you posted it.

I invite examination of my post on Page 13 of this thread, posted at 7:58PM Pacific time 20 Oct 2005. I note that I caught Faux in no less than six lies. I also invite inspection of the my post on page 51 from 1:37AM Pacific time on 20 Nov 2005, in which I detail a further eight lies. In neither case has he responded to a single one of these accusations, which are perfectly obvious and are available for anyone's inspection at any time.

Here we have another lie, which is a claim that there has ever been any response to either of these posts but further lies.

Then there is the fact that NOT A SINGLE ONE of the serious physics points raised in either my post on page 13 from 6:51AM 20 Oct 2005, in which I not only reiterate the evidence, but point out a further seven lies that Faux makes, or adoucette's post of 28 Oct 2005 at 3:28PM Pacific. These are serious questions, the answers to which make it abundantly clear that demolition fantasies fail to account for large numbers of well-known and well-documented facts.

If you have answers, let's see them. You haven't even attempted to refute my post on page 50 from 19 Nov 2005 at 1:26AM Pacific time. Not one single point of it. Yet, here you are, claiming I'm "BSing" somehow. Which, by the way, is, guess what? ANOTHER LIE. And please note that the above documented lies are merely the ones that I bothered to document; the easiest way to tell if Faux is lying is to see whether it's posted anything.
Schneibster
The East penthouse fell first; and when it fell, it developed a kink in its roof directly over the failed column. Then the curtain wall and the West penthouse fell. Then the North wall of the building fell down, and when it did, it developed a kink as well, in exactly the same place. Before the penthouse fell, there was a line of window breakages that made its way up the side of the building, directly in line with the two kinks, first in the penthouse and then in the North wall, as each one fell. This is all clear from the video of the collapse, which everyone has seen; having provided the link already, I'll merely note that it's on the 9/11 Research site; you can go use the menu on the left side to pull it up. Make it full screen and watch it at half speed. It's all there right in front of you.

Furthermore, the top level windows show the sky behind them after the penthouses are gone.

Now, there is one and only one way that those penthouses disappeared, and that's if the insides of the building fell down before the outside walls did. There is one and only one way the sky shone through those windows, and that's if the roof was gone. There is one and only one way that the North wall fell down as if the whole building was sinking into the ground, and that's if the cantilevers holding it up had their pivot points taken out from underneath them, and there's one and only one way that the North wall fell down and there wasn't anything behind it, and that's (again) if the insides of the building had already fallen down, as we already concluded from the evidence of the penthouses. Finally, there's one and only one way that the debris from the outside walls wound up on top of the pile of debris from the building, and that's if the outside walls fell last.

There you go, fp- that enough physics for you? Got anything to add? I'll point out that that's exactly what I said several pages ago.
Hidden_Tiger
QUOTE (Schneibster+Nov 21 2005, 01:13 PM)
If you have answers, let's see them. You haven't even attempted to refute my post on page 50 from 19 Nov 2005 at 1:26AM Pacific time. Not one single point of it. Yet, here you are, claiming I'm "BSing" somehow.

Personally I gave up trying to reason with the demolition-theorists ages ago - I applaud your perseverance, but at some point we have to accept that they don't want to accept any real evidence about the collapse. One of their main arguments is Hoffman's paper, which laughable (the energy pulverizing the rock disappears! And since the rock flew outward, it must be at 720 degrees!) and every real engineering professor I've talked to (at an Ivy League University, no less) sees nothing physically inconsistent with the "official" story. It is fun to debate, but eventually you have to throw in the towel.
Guest
QUOTE (Schneibster+Nov 21 2005, 01:20 PM)
Now, there is one and only one way that those penthouses disappeared, and that's if the insides of the building fell down before the outside walls did...

Finally, there's one and only one way that the debris from the outside walls wound up on top of the pile of debris from the building, and that's if the outside walls fell first.

There you go, fp- that enough physics for you? Got anything to add? I'll point out that that's exactly what I said several pages ago.

Let's see.. "the insides of the building fell down before the outside walls did", but "there's one and only one way that the debris from the outside walls wound up on top of the pile of debris from the building, and that's if the outside walls fell first".

So, which is it?? You've contradicted yourself plenty of times during this thread, but NOW WITHIN THE SAME POST?!?

Also, if the "outside walls fell first", how did they wind up "on top of the pile of debris from the building"? What kind of topsy-turvy universe do you live in, where the first things to fall END UP ON TOP OF THE PILE?!?
adoucette
Its obvious he meant the inside walls fell first in his last sentence, everyone makes typos.

Sheesh.

Arthur
metamars
QUOTE
One of their main arguments is Hoffman's paper, which laughable (the energy pulverizing the rock disappears! And since the rock flew outward, it must be at 720 degrees!) and every real engineering professor I've talked to (at an Ivy League University, no less) sees nothing physically inconsistent with the "official" story. It is fun to debate, but eventually you have to throw in the towel.


Oh, pray tell, can you please explain Hoffman's error to us? I have show, in detail, how Schneibster's concerns have no merit. He has still not conceded this point.

Since you agree with him, kindly explain to us lesser mortals, clearly and in detail, Hoffman's error. If you are not up to the task, perhaps one of your "Ivy League University engineering professors" can do so.

Kindly ask them to attach their name to their post, so that we can verify their identity, and so that we can properly credit them and thank them for their generous donation of, oh, I'd say about 10-20 minutes of their time.

You'll recall that Professor Jones did not refrain from putting his name and reputation on the line in calling for a real investigation. Hopefully, your "Ivy League engineering professors" will equally have the courage of their convictions. After all, in the publish or perish world of academia, putting your name and reputation on the line with every paper you publish is the norm. Let's hope that your "Ivy League engineering professors" will not, all of a sudden, turn into yellow-bellied cowards.
RealityCheck
Hello Guest, metamars.

GUEST....The unmistakable mark of an open/fair-minded lady/gentleman debating in these forums is the ability to allow for 'obvious misspeaks' in others (based on their earlier 'argument development'). Furthermore, having recognised such an (obvious to all) misspeak, the 'true' lady/gentleman should ALWAYS extend the courtesy to others of advising them of same, thus graciously allowing them the opportunity to correct such obvious misspeaks. Only a churlish mind can derive satisfaction from attempting to score a 'false' point. Next time, please control your baser instincts and act like the lady/gentleman that your mother presumably wishes/wished you to be. Good luck!

METAMARS....Regarding 'disappearing' energy in concrete 'pulverisation/compression'. Have you ever used a hand-pump on a bicycle tire? If so, you will notice that the pump cylinder gets VERY hot near the BOTTOM (where the most 'compression' of the air occurs prior to exiting to the tyre. The mechanical-energy of YOU compressing (via piston) the air doesn't just 'disappear'; rather it ADDS to the pre-existing heat-energy content and temperature of the relevant air & pump-parts (as well as the bike's tire). Also, have you ever driven for long distances on an 'under-inflated' CAR tire? You will find that the 'mechanical energy' imparted to the tire by the constant mechanical-deformation compression/expansion of the tire (as each section rotates against the road surface) will make THOSE tyres very hot as well.

Now visualise the mechanical-energy being applied to the concrete during compression/pulverisation; and visualise where that energy will go in these processes once the concrete is mechanically crushed and 'burned' by fire. Yes, the concrete 'powder/lumps' will become VERY, VERY, HOT. I would also venture to suggest that, in all probability, in some areas (especially after energy-input from 'fire' AS WELL), SOME of the concrete may be so 'cooked' by energy-input that it is effectively 'calcined' (like in industry, when they 'pyrolise' or 'cook' limestone to produce 'quicklime'). So, metamars, I wouldn't be too hasty in discounting what some are saying about 'conversion/retention' of 'mechanical/heat-energy during collapse/pulverisation. Good luck!

Ciao till next time.

RealityCheck.
.
Schneibster
Thanks Arthur- I corrected the post, I should have said the outside walls fell LAST.
Schneibster
QUOTE (metamars+)
Oh, pray tell, can you please explain Hoffman's error to us?
He subtracts the energy of the pulverization of the concrete, and never adds the heat it turns into back in to the equation. In other words, he claims that the heat just disappears. And then he adds more energy, to heat things up- as if they're stone cold after falling four hundred meters to the ground.

The claim that a 720C (that's over 1,300F) cloud of dust rolled outward from the collapsing buildings containing the energy of a full-scale nuclear weapon is ludicrous.

QUOTE (metamars+)
I have show, in detail, how Schneibster's concerns have no merit.  He has still not conceded this point.
Suuuuurrrre you have. Care to share with us all how you "have show" this? Because you seem, somehow, to have neglected to post it anywhere in this thread.

Are you perhaps speaking of the part where you were so dumb you couldn't figure out that I wasn't talking about people not taking the garbage out for two weeks? Or would that be the part where you made your own conservation of energy errors and I pointed them out in detail?

QUOTE (metamars+)
Kindly ask them to attach their name to their post, so that we can verify their identity, and so that we can properly credit  them and thank them for their generous donation of, oh, I'd say about 10-20 minutes of their time.
Oh, so their personal information can be used against them, as frater plecticus already did in hir oh-so-classy manner to adoucette?

And physical law is physical law- it doesn't matter who says it.

QUOTE (metamars+)
You'll recall that Professor Jones did not refrain from putting his name and reputation on the line in calling for a real investigation.
Yes- his entire reputation as an economist. Good thing he's not a physics professor- he'd be laughed out of the school.
metamars
QUOTE
So, metamars, I wouldn't be too hasty in discounting what some are saying about 'conversion/retention' of 'mechanical/heat-energy during collapse/pulverisation.


But I have not been hasty. As I have said before, I examined this in detail, and Schneibster's arguments have no merit. And I took my time writing those posts.

tongue.gif


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
So, metamars, I wouldn't be too hasty in discounting what some are saying about 'conversion/retention' of 'mechanical/heat-energy during collapse/pulverisation.


But I have not been hasty. As I have said before, I examined this in detail, and Schneibster's arguments have no merit. And I took my time writing those posts.

tongue.gif


Good luck!


Thank-you. But on this particular point, it is the believers in the FEMA Fairy Tale who need the luck, and even that won't suffice them, any more than luck would suffice a believer in 8.4 second collapse times.

============================================

BTW, there's a fascinating article on micro-nukes, which may have been the source of the missing energy, at

Bali Micro Nuke - Lack of Radiation Confuses "Experts"


In it, Vialls claims,

QUOTE
"  “The detonation wave pressure (1,000,000 to 1,500,000 pounds per square inch) from a high detonation velocity contact explosive sweeps into the reinforced concrete structure as a wave of compressive deformation. Since the pressure in the wave of deformation far exceeds the yield strength of the concrete (about 3,500 pounds per square inch) by a factor of approximately 300, the concrete is turned into granular sand and dust until the wave dissipates to below the yield strength of the concrete."


Unfortunately, his article is basically unsourced (all of them were, I believe), except for some newpaper articles.

Can anybody confirm the figure for the yield strength of concrete? (3,500 pounds per square inch)
Guest
QUOTE (adoucette+Nov 21 2005, 06:59 PM)
Its obvious he meant the inside walls fell first in his last sentence, everyone makes typos.

Sheesh.

Arthur

You mean that everyone makes "freudian slips"; especially when they are emotionally involved in an issue...
Guest
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Nov 21 2005, 08:14 PM)
Hello Guest, metamars.

GUEST....The unmistakable mark of an open/fair-minded lady/gentleman debating in these forums is the ability to allow for 'obvious misspeaks' in others (based on their earlier 'argument development'). Furthermore, having recognised such an (obvious to all) misspeak, the 'true' lady/gentleman should ALWAYS extend the courtesy to others of advising them of same, thus graciously allowing them the opportunity to correct such obvious misspeaks. Only a churlish mind can derive satisfaction from attempting to score a 'false' point. Next time, please control your baser instincts and act like the lady/gentleman that your mother presumably wishes/wished you to be. Good luck!


"Open/fair-minded lady/gentleman"...are you kidding me??? If any of you think you are open and fair minded, much less ladies OR gentlemen (or anything in between), you are obviously deceiving yourself, as well as others.

As for "argument development", what are you talking about? This idiot has not developed an argument that is consistent from one page to the next. His/her arguments change like the wind, depending on the issue...
metamars
Speaking of micro-nukes (vs. conventional explosives)


One thing that always bothered me about the demolition-via-explosives hypothesis is that I never heard of any reports of explosive residues. How is that possible? Does anybody have info on this?

Even a "little" bit of radioactivity should have been observable. However, if you read the Vialls micro-nuke article noted above, you can see how this is not necessarily the case wrt radioactivity detected by conventional geiger counters. (So says Vialls, anyway.)
Schneibster
QUOTE (metamars+)
But I have not been hasty. As I have said before, I examined this in detail, and Schneibster's arguments have no merit. And I took my time writing those posts. 
Perhaps you'd care to name the posts, by page number, and by date and time of posting, as I did.

QUOTE (metamars+)
BTW, there's a fascinating article on micro-nukes
With no discussion of how such things might be fabricated, or how they might work... nuclear weapons work one way: critical mass. Since mass decreases (with volume, for a constant density) as the cube root of diameter, there is a minimum sized nuclear weapon that can be built- it's about 1kt.

QUOTE (metamars+)
Can anybody confirm the figure for the yield strength of concrete? (3,500 pounds per square inch)
The correct term is not "yield strength" but "compression strength." 3,500 psi is relatively standard concrete; ordinary high-strength concrete has a compression strength of about 6,000 psi, and there are specialized high-strength concretes with compression strengths in the 10,000-20,000 psi range. The concrete in the WTC towers was ordinary high-strength concrete. You should also keep in mind that concrete generally doesn't fail in compression, it fails in tension, and the tensile strength of concrete is less than a tenth of its compression strength.
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