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newton
QUOTE (JamesX+Feb 26 2006, 08:14 AM)
QUOTE (O RLYity Check+)
I'm a scientist


That's some impressive credentials.

Did they teach you how to capitalize VERY IMPORTANT WORDS in SCIENCE SCHOOL?

just for the record, i don't capitalise, because i'm anti englishist. and too lazy to hit the shift key.
i find making EXCITING words more THRILLING by making them LARGER an effective communication tool.

it also makes LUDICROUS NONSENSE more HILARIOUS.

RC
RealityCheck
QUOTE (JamesX+Feb 26 2006, 08:14 AM)
QUOTE (O RLYity Check+)
I'm a scientist


That's some impressive credentials.

Did they teach you how to capitalize VERY IMPORTANT WORDS in SCIENCE SCHOOL?


To BE a TRUE SCIENTIST all you NEED is BRAINS and the INTEGRITY to apply THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD to FACTS/OBSERVATIONS so as to ascertain the BEST FIT for the observed phenomena.

It has become abundantly clear to all here that YOU LACK ALL THE NECESSARIES, especially BRAINS, to be a true scientist.

Just because you are found SOOOO deficient is no excuse for you to bother those who have taken the trouble to learn and apply the scientific method so as to ensure that they don't end up like YOU....perfectly useless in all respects...self-evidently. QED.

Did you comprehend the difference between you and the Physorg regular scientists? Or do I have to 'capitalise' EVERY WORD for you, JamesDweeb?

RC.
.
RealityCheck
QUOTE (newton+Feb 26 2006, 08:14 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Feb 26 2006, 04:27 AM)


As is now painfully obvious to all with access to "FOXX"s "great free internet communications network", FOXX and co never HAD anything much to SAY that was of any REAL substance. No change, really. 4yrs or no 4yrs, it's as stupid and MUTE ON THE PHYSICS then as it is now. As I said, no change. Typical.

Regards,

RC.
.

wrong. the unofficial conspiracy theory WORKS, whereas, the official one DOESN'T. that's why there has been 'no change', because it was always right, and mounting evidence continually reinforces the unofficial TRUTH, vs. the VERY WOBBLY official LIE.

pretty fookin witty, eh?


Oh? Is THAT why "FOXX" is twisted in knots and currently engaged in trying to chew his leg off in a vain attempt to escape the "FOXX"TRAP he so assiduously 'constructed' over 4yrs and THEN was so careless as to set it off all on his little lonesome? You are now deluded, as well as STILL useless in physics of any sort.

QUOTE (newton+Feb 26 2006, 09:00 AM)
QUOTE (JamesX+Feb 26 2006, 08:14 AM)
QUOTE (O RLYity Check+)
I'm a scientist


That's some impressive credentials.

Did they teach you how to capitalize VERY IMPORTANT WORDS in SCIENCE SCHOOL?

just for the record, i don't capitalise, because i'm anti englishist. and too lazy to hit the shift key.
i find making EXCITING words more THRILLING by making them LARGER an effective communication tool.

it also makes LUDICROUS NONSENSE more HILARIOUS.

RC


Oh dear oh dear. One idiot (newton) taking for his 'foundation arguments' the 'brainless soundings' of another idiot (JamesDweeb)!

As CS would say: "Oh, the Irony!"...the Humanity!

RC.
.
JamesX
QUOTE (O RLY?ity Check+Feb 26 2006, 09:42 AM)
QUOTE (JamesX+Feb 26 2006, 08:14 AM)
QUOTE (O RLYity Check+)
I'm a scientist


That's some impressive credentials.

Did they teach you how to capitalize VERY IMPORTANT WORDS in SCIENCE SCHOOL?


About HALF a SENTENCE worth of CONTENT packed into FOUR PARAGRAPHS, complete with stylish SCHNEIBCLONE CAPITALIZATION technique

RC.
.


Sorry, the ability to randomly capitalize words still doesn't make you a scientist.

But thanks for the laughs.



RealityCheck
QUOTE (JamesX+Feb 26 2006, 09:57 AM)
QUOTE (O RLY?ity Check+Feb 26 2006, 09:42 AM)
QUOTE (JamesX+Feb 26 2006, 08:14 AM)
QUOTE (O RLYity Check+)
I'm a scientist


That's some impressive credentials.

Did they teach you how to capitalize VERY IMPORTANT WORDS in SCIENCE SCHOOL?


About HALF a SENTENCE worth of CONTENT packed into FOUR PARAGRAPHS, complete with stylish SCHNEIBCLONE CAPITALIZATION technique

RC.
.


Sorry, the ability to randomly capitalize words still doesn't make you a scientist.

But thanks for the laughs.


Apparently you don't learn anything, JamesDweeb. Or you would have learned to read EVEN CAPITALISED WORDS. Just because you can't READ CAPITALISED WORDS you are missing out on the very WORDS that are showing you up for an IDIOT. But, since you CAN'T READ CAPITALISED WORDS, you DON'T KNOW that I am calling you an IDIOT, heh? Ignorance is bliss for you IDIOTS, heh, JamesDweeb?

And your laughter has long been drowned out by the howls of laughter emanating from the REAL PhysOrgForumers, and not the clowns dropping by just to provide the entertainment on a slow day, hahaha! Does that clown facepaint EVER come off, JamesDweeb?

RC....but I should write "rc"....so that you will at least know who is calling you an IDIOT without you realising it.
.
JamesX
QUOTE (O RLYityCheck+Feb 26 2006, 10:09 AM)
QUOTE (JamesX+Feb 26 2006, 09:57 AM)
QUOTE (O RLY?ity Check+Feb 26 2006, 09:42 AM)
QUOTE (JamesX+Feb 26 2006, 08:14 AM)
QUOTE (O RLYity Check+)
I'm a scientist


That's some impressive credentials.

Did they teach you how to capitalize VERY IMPORTANT WORDS in SCIENCE SCHOOL?


About HALF a SENTENCE worth of CONTENT packed into FOUR PARAGRAPHS, complete with stylish SCHNEIBCLONE CAPITALIZATION technique

RC.
.


Sorry, the ability to randomly capitalize words still doesn't make you a scientist.

But thanks for the laughs.


JamesDweeb. I am an IDIOT, heh? Ignorance is bliss for us IDIOTS, heh, JamesDweeb


So what you're trying to say is you're an idiot who never tires of making an a$$ of itself on public forums?

Fair enough, I guess.
RealityCheck
QUOTE (JamesX+Feb 26 2006, 10:20 AM)
QUOTE (O RLYityCheck+Feb 26 2006, 10:09 AM)
QUOTE (JamesX+Feb 26 2006, 09:57 AM)
QUOTE (O RLY?ity Check+Feb 26 2006, 09:42 AM)
QUOTE (JamesX+Feb 26 2006, 08:14 AM)
QUOTE (O RLYity Check+)
I'm a scientist


That's some impressive credentials.

Did they teach you how to capitalize VERY IMPORTANT WORDS in SCIENCE SCHOOL?


About HALF a SENTENCE worth of CONTENT packed into FOUR PARAGRAPHS, complete with stylish SCHNEIBCLONE CAPITALIZATION technique

RC.
.


Sorry, the ability to randomly capitalize words still doesn't make you a scientist.

But thanks for the laughs.


JamesDweeb. I am an IDIOT, heh? Ignorance is bliss for us IDIOTS, heh, JamesDweeb


So what you're trying to say is you're an idiot who never tires of making an a$$ of itself on public forums?

Fair enough, I guess.


Hello JamesDweeb!

If you spent the same amount of effort on thinking and science as you obviously have to spend on FABRICATING TRANSCRIPTS, then perhaps you wouldn't HAVE to 'fabricate' a fantasy world where YOU 'appear' to be less stupid and dishonest than you prove yourself to be with every deteriorating post.

It is apparent now that you do not understand the English language sufficiently so as to understand just HOW you are being insulted.

That would explain why you have to 'fabricate' conversation transcripts, heh? Naughty naughty, JamesDweeb. Your mother would not approve!...or would she?

Do you 'fabricate' evidence/data in your science class assignments too, JamesDweeb?

RC ("rc" to you, JamesDweeb).
JamesX
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Feb 26 2006, 10:37 AM)
QUOTE (JamesX+Feb 26 2006, 10:20 AM)
QUOTE (O RLYityCheck+Feb 26 2006, 10:09 AM)
QUOTE (JamesX+Feb 26 2006, 09:57 AM)
QUOTE (O RLY?ity Check+Feb 26 2006, 09:42 AM)
QUOTE (JamesX+Feb 26 2006, 08:14 AM)
QUOTE (O RLYity Check+)
I'm a scientist


That's some impressive credentials.

Did they teach you how to capitalize VERY IMPORTANT WORDS in SCIENCE SCHOOL?


About HALF a SENTENCE worth of CONTENT packed into FOUR PARAGRAPHS, complete with stylish SCHNEIBCLONE CAPITALIZATION technique

RC.
.


Sorry, the ability to randomly capitalize words still doesn't make you a scientist.

But thanks for the laughs.


JamesDweeb. I am an IDIOT, heh? Ignorance is bliss for us IDIOTS, heh, JamesDweeb


So what you're trying to say is you're an idiot who never tires of making an a$$ of itself on public forums?

Fair enough, I guess.


Hello JamesDweeb!


Naughty naughty, JamesDweeb.

Your mother blah blah



That's almost as fascinating as your story about Foxx making millions off of tricking people into clicking his links.


RealityCheck
QUOTE (JamesX+Feb 26 2006, 10:48 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Feb 26 2006, 10:37 AM)
QUOTE (JamesX+Feb 26 2006, 10:20 AM)
QUOTE (O RLYityCheck+Feb 26 2006, 10:09 AM)
QUOTE (JamesX+Feb 26 2006, 09:57 AM)
QUOTE (O RLY?ity Check+Feb 26 2006, 09:42 AM)
QUOTE (JamesX+Feb 26 2006, 08:14 AM)
QUOTE (O RLYity Check+)
I'm a scientist


That's some impressive credentials.

Did they teach you how to capitalize VERY IMPORTANT WORDS in SCIENCE SCHOOL?


About HALF a SENTENCE worth of CONTENT packed into FOUR PARAGRAPHS, complete with stylish SCHNEIBCLONE CAPITALIZATION technique

RC.
.


Sorry, the ability to randomly capitalize words still doesn't make you a scientist.

But thanks for the laughs.


JamesDweeb. I am an IDIOT, heh? Ignorance is bliss for us IDIOTS, heh, JamesDweeb


So what you're trying to say is you're an idiot who never tires of making an a$$ of itself on public forums?

Fair enough, I guess.


Hello JamesDweeb!


Naughty naughty, JamesDweeb.

Your mother blah blah



That's almost as fascinating as your story about Foxx making millions off of tricking people into clicking his links.


It's more plausible than your PHYSICS, heh JamesDweeb?

Besides, "FOXX" is only the 'phantom controversy' front man for cronies like you, who actually do the spamming/scamming linking to those 'front' sites for terrorists and con-men using the 'sucker click' traffic you and your oh-too-stupid-to-be-genuine runningmates have tried to send their way at every opportunity.

What's the matter, our warnings to Physorg members/visitors having a detrimental effect on your 'paycheck', JamesDweeb (or should that be shill, because, according to FOXX's definition, that's ALL you've been doing here...for it certainly isn't PHYSICS). Too bad. So sorry. Boohoohoo...

RC.
.
JamesX
QUOTE (O RLY?Check!+Feb 26 2006, 10:58 AM)
QUOTE (JamesX+Feb 26 2006, 10:48 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Feb 26 2006, 10:37 AM)
QUOTE (JamesX+Feb 26 2006, 10:20 AM)
QUOTE (O RLYityCheck+Feb 26 2006, 10:09 AM)
QUOTE (JamesX+Feb 26 2006, 09:57 AM)
QUOTE (O RLY?ity Check+Feb 26 2006, 09:42 AM)
QUOTE (JamesX+Feb 26 2006, 08:14 AM)
QUOTE (O RLYity Check+)
I'm a scientist


That's some impressive credentials.

Did they teach you how to capitalize VERY IMPORTANT WORDS in SCIENCE SCHOOL?


About HALF a SENTENCE worth of CONTENT packed into FOUR PARAGRAPHS, complete with stylish SCHNEIBCLONE CAPITALIZATION technique

RC.
.


Sorry, the ability to randomly capitalize words still doesn't make you a scientist.

But thanks for the laughs.


JamesDweeb. I am an IDIOT, heh? Ignorance is bliss for us IDIOTS, heh, JamesDweeb


So what you're trying to say is you're an idiot who never tires of making an a$$ of itself on public forums?

Fair enough, I guess.


Hello JamesDweeb!


Naughty naughty, JamesDweeb.

Your mother blah blah



That's almost as fascinating as your story about Foxx making millions off of tricking people into clicking his links.


It's more plausible than your PHYSICS, heh JamesDweeb?

Besides, "FOXX" is only the 'phantom controversy' front man for cronies like you, who actually do the spamming/scamming linking to those 'front' sites for terrorists and con-men using the 'sucker click' traffic you and your oh-too-stupid-to-be-genuine runningmates have tried to send their way at every opportunity.

What's the matter, our warnings to Physorg members/visitors having a detrimental effect on your 'paycheck', JamesDweeb (or should that be shill, because, according to FOXX's definition, that's ALL you've been doing here...for it certainly isn't PHYSICS). Too bad. So sorry. Boohoohoo...

RC.
.



LMAO yeah, that's the one. It gets better every time you tell it. laugh.gif

So which one of you foil hats uncovered this dastardly spam gang first?

And how is the investigation going?
RealityCheck
QUOTE (JamesX+Feb 26 2006, 11:09 AM)
QUOTE (O RLY?Check!+Feb 26 2006, 10:58 AM)
QUOTE (JamesX+Feb 26 2006, 10:48 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Feb 26 2006, 10:37 AM)
QUOTE (JamesX+Feb 26 2006, 10:20 AM)
QUOTE (O RLYityCheck+Feb 26 2006, 10:09 AM)
QUOTE (JamesX+Feb 26 2006, 09:57 AM)
QUOTE (O RLY?ity Check+Feb 26 2006, 09:42 AM)
QUOTE (JamesX+Feb 26 2006, 08:14 AM)
QUOTE (O RLYity Check+)
I'm a scientist


That's some impressive credentials.

Did they teach you how to capitalize VERY IMPORTANT WORDS in SCIENCE SCHOOL?


About HALF a SENTENCE worth of CONTENT packed into FOUR PARAGRAPHS, complete with stylish SCHNEIBCLONE CAPITALIZATION technique

RC.
.


Sorry, the ability to randomly capitalize words still doesn't make you a scientist.

But thanks for the laughs.


JamesDweeb. I am an IDIOT, heh? Ignorance is bliss for us IDIOTS, heh, JamesDweeb


So what you're trying to say is you're an idiot who never tires of making an a$$ of itself on public forums?

Fair enough, I guess.


Hello JamesDweeb!


Naughty naughty, JamesDweeb.

Your mother blah blah



That's almost as fascinating as your story about Foxx making millions off of tricking people into clicking his links.


It's more plausible than your PHYSICS, heh JamesDweeb?

Besides, "FOXX" is only the 'phantom controversy' front man for cronies like you, who actually do the spamming/scamming linking to those 'front' sites for terrorists and con-men using the 'sucker click' traffic you and your oh-too-stupid-to-be-genuine runningmates have tried to send their way at every opportunity.

What's the matter, our warnings to Physorg members/visitors having a detrimental effect on your 'paycheck', JamesDweeb (or should that be shill, because, according to FOXX's definition, that's ALL you've been doing here...for it certainly isn't PHYSICS). Too bad. So sorry. Boohoohoo...

RC.
.



LMAO yeah, that's the one. It gets better every time you tell it. laugh.gif

So which one of you foil hats uncovered this dastardly spam gang first?

And how is the investigation going?


How's the PHYSICS going, mate?

Prove me wrong by posting some consistent physics argument in support of you BEING here at ALL, heh?

Otherwise, what are you DOING here except supporting the spam/scam sites your mates direct 'sucker click' traffic to.

Prove you are NOT involved with "FOXX"s phantom controvery crowd, by posting some CONSISTENT PHYSICS ARGUMENT in support of even ONE physical phenomenon/observation related to 9/11 events from plane impacts that you have GENUINE questions about. If you can manage that, all here, including myself, will have reason to allay our suspicions and listen to what you have to say...but ONLY if you stop your infantile posts that BEG to be treated as they deserve (which you will have noticed is being done to your infantile posts even as we 'speak').

The new ball's in your court, JamesX.

EC.
.
JamesX
Mate, your fairy tale was shown to be an impossibility back on page one and none of your efforts to prop it up have warranted more than a chuckle or two. On the other hand, your kook nutter delusions about Foxx's nefarious activities are pure comedy gold. I'm afraid you're in no position to challenge anyone else's intelligence, mate. And judging from your swift descent into Schneibsterian paranoia, you might want to do yourself a favor and seek psychological counseling ASAP.
metamars
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Feb 26 2006, 04:02 AM)
QUOTE (metamars+Feb 26 2006, 03:48 AM)
QUOTE (Common Sense+Feb 26 2006, 03:37 AM)
QUOTE
1) identify themselves


Why? To have a bunch of paranoid nutcases harass them and their family? They don't have to "in light of all the evidence articulated in Professor Jones' paper."

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
1) identify themselves


Why? To have a bunch of paranoid nutcases harass them and their family? They don't have to "in light of all the evidence articulated in Professor Jones' paper."

2) explain to us why we should call their statement anything other than a lie, in light of all the evidence articulated in Professor Jones' paper.


Because Jone's paper hasn't passed peer review for some very good reasons discussed in this thread. Because for 400 pages on this thread people like Schneibster and RC proved him wrong. Because Jones LIES about the context of the quotes in his paper. blink.gif

Since I don't presume you were involved in inserting the "NO EVIDENCE" lie into the NIST report, I don't presume that you should speak for them.

Getting harassed is a real concern, on both sides of the issue. But my point was more rhetorical - to show clearly how conflating the parties guilty of inserting such nonsense into the report in no way implies that everybody in NIST who had anything to do with the report was "in on it" , is absurd.


Met, are you implying that all those who were NOT 'in', the alleged NIST conspiracy, have NOT read the report they contributed to, and are NOT aware of how their work/words have been 'allegedly twisted' by 'filters' higher up? Or that THEY ARE ALL COWARDS who would out of fear etc. protect an alleged murdering administration responsible for 9/11? You seem to have little faith in the existence of at least ONE GOOD PERSON amongst all those who 'weren't 'in' on it.

Especially since MANY of those contributors would have already had GUT FEELING and PAPER AND PENCIL etc. EDUCATED estimates/guesses as to what those simulations/experiments SHOULD SHOW in view of their OWN 'professional experience'.

RC.
.

I certainly am implying that anybody in NIST who contributed to the report in any way, read if afterwards, including and especially the lie

QUOTE

NO EVIDENCE for a controlled demolition was found


and either already was or subsequently became aware of all the evidence for CD, has indeed chosen to keep their mouth shut about the subject. Certainly, I don't know of any such NIST employee who has publicly contradicted the "big lie". Do you?


As to why this should be the case, fear of job loss and persecution by the government are certainly plausible suggestions, and strike me as the most likely. It's certainly not hard to draw the conclusion that CD implies an inside job, and this (especially in light of all the other evidence pointing to government complicity) implies that agents within the US government were the ultimate perpetrators. Such an obvious chain of logic is sure to give many people pause.

Wassa matta wit you? Don't you watch "the Sopranos"? tongue.gif

Certainly, these strike me as much better hypotheses than shyness or indifference, e.g..

metamars
QUOTE (Common Sense+Feb 26 2006, 04:57 AM)
QUOTE (metamars+Feb 26 2006, 04:43 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Feb 26 2006, 03:03 AM)
QUOTE (metamars+Feb 25 2006, 03:50 PM)
.........
...........
...........and where are their fluid hydrodynamical calculations that show how a squib, consisting of both air and powder/particulates could possibly travel downwards so many floors, and then outwards. Did the particles "tunnel" through all the air in between? Methinks not, nor any other plausible scenario, but perhaps a fluid hydrodynamical simulation will prove me wrong. So, where is it?............
..............


Hi metamars!

If you have any understanding of 'convection' processes you will KNOW that during AN HOUR of raging fires on many levels THROUGH WHICH 'SHAFTS/PLENUMS' which existed BY DESIGN or had been BLOWN 'OPEN' by plane impact and JETFUEL-AIR WHCH ALSO WERE 'BLAST-DRIVEN' ALL THE WAY DOWN TO THE BASEMENT and would have opened MANY 'egress' points at MANY levels, the WHOLE BUILDING WOULD HAVE BEEN THOROUGHLY SUFFUSED WITH SMOKE/PARTICULATES FROM IMPACT AND FIRES. So any LATER 'collapse front' pressurisation of each 'pancaking' floor space would INEVITABLYproduce SOME random escapes of that ALREADY DISTRIBUTED 'CONVECTED' DUST/SMOKE through wherever any 'openings' exist in the perimeter wall 'tube'. Or is that too difficult to envisage for you?


QUOTE (metamars+Feb 26 2006, 02:29 AM)
QUOTE (Common Sense+Feb 26 2006, 01:39 AM)
I urge every "Scholar" who believe in CD to publish your papers in a peer reviewed Structural Engineering journal. You have no excuse. It's been 4 years now.

Should we publish before or after we get our hands on all the evidence that NIST had in its hands? After all, it's been 4 years, now. They certainly don't need the evidence anymore, since (according to most of you guys, apparently) their work is done.


Are you now implying that idiot Hoffman and his idiot echo Jones were UNPROFESSIONAL and even WRONG to pretend to PROPERLY 'analyse' and 'treat' the 9/11 events without all the evidence? Gee, I wonder if (aprt from Hoffman's 'disappearing energy' blunder; and Jones' following him blindly in that blunder) THAT's why they both are a laughing stock?

BTW...met, I haven't seen your response to my suggestion that the 'disappearing' or 'pulverised' so-called 'spire' might also be explained by the 'shutter speed' of the video camera NOT capturing enough sequential images. That is, one 'frame' shows the 'spire' but the NEXT frame is not exposed soon enough to capture a 'spire' being WHIPPED DOWN/ASIDE at high velocity by that nearby FAST TOPPLING column whipping the 'spires' support structure down when it 'hit' below camera shot. Anything comment on that? Cheers!

RC.
.

You seem to be pretending that Hoffman and Jones had a choice in the matter, and that if any evidence was to be used in a court case, chain of custody issues could be ignored and Jones and Hoffman could have a free run at the evidence, anyway.

Are you?

Your slanderous remarks about them being "idiots" deserves little comments from me, except to say 1) look at Jones resume and Hoffman's accomplishments and 2) how does your resume stack up in comparison?

Besides technical accomplishments, need I add that most people would find that their communication skills far surpass yours? Or do you think that a "stream of consciousness" style of writing is suitable for a scientist, on a physics forum?

As for your comments about "convection processes", etc.,
1) I frankly haven't followed the discussion much about "jetfuel-air being blast-driven down to the basement", partly because I find it very implausible, and partly because the "basement explosions" (if that's what they were) don't interest me all that much, unless it can be convincingly shown to have had something to do with the buildings' destruction, one way or the other (i.e., CD or FEMA Fairy Tale)
2) even if we grant such a scenario, I fail to see how this would explain how the pulverized dust would blow through the window, from the very onset of it's destruction, so many stories below a hypothetical pile driver, at a perpendiclar angle from the elevator shafts, no less. Even charitably working within the limits of your "flowingly written", qualitative scenario, you still haven't convincingly explained, even by way of a mediocre analogy, how dust could be projected so far from the source - except to say that Dust/Smoke from the 1 hour "raging" fire "thoroughly suffused" through the "whole building".

Ah-h-h-h-h, perhaps you find this verbal picture convincing, but I certainly don't. If there was this large amount of ash lying around, should not a noticeable amount of it have been seen coming from the gaping holes, left by the jets, well before collapse ensued? You know, blown about by a gust of wind, that sort of thing?

To me, the answer is obvious, which raises the question as to why you would even present such a poor idea. As a minor detail, OK, but as a primary factor??

Well, who am I to question your intellect? Anybody who would refer to both Hoffman and Jones as "idiots" is surely a much smarter person than I could ever hope to be.

3) the more doubtful a qualitative argument, such as yours, the greater the need to make it quantitative, to possibly rescue it. In a sense, the only point you demonstrated with your post is the desirability of a fluid hydrodynamic + FEA analysis. If you intended to demonstrate why such is not necessary, then from my point of view, anyway, you have failed completely.

As for the spire collapse, I myself raised the issue about limits following from frames per second considerations. However, I may have posted this at AH, not here. Frankly, I don't remember which.

I like the disingenuous way you always slap the hand of people who fight back yet never slap the hand of people like JamesX or Foxx for that matter. The people who start the nonsense.

Please stop pretending to be holier than thou. Scientist don't use the word "Fairy tale" to describe a competing view.

You are quite right, that scientists don't (normally) refer to competing theories as Fairy Tales. However, I have never stated, or pretended, that I am a scientist. I have a degree in physics and mathematics, and therefore have good insight into how a scientist thinks.

I may be going to graduate school for at least a master's degree in physics, so this situation may change. Perhaps then I will substitute the less provocative phrase "unlikely hypothesis" for "Fairy Tale".

In the meantime, I will stick with "Fairy Tale", since that's what it is. Believe it or not, I really do think that this is far less insulting than calling you and other popes "idiots" - something I have no intention of doing.
adoucette
QUOTE (metamars+Feb 26 2006, 08:12 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Feb 26 2006, 04:02 AM)
QUOTE (metamars+Feb 26 2006, 03:48 AM)
QUOTE (Common Sense+Feb 26 2006, 03:37 AM)
QUOTE
1) identify themselves


Why? To have a bunch of paranoid nutcases harass them and their family? They don't have to "in light of all the evidence articulated in Professor Jones' paper."

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
1) identify themselves


Why? To have a bunch of paranoid nutcases harass them and their family? They don't have to "in light of all the evidence articulated in Professor Jones' paper."

2) explain to us why we should call their statement anything other than a lie, in light of all the evidence articulated in Professor Jones' paper.


Because Jone's paper hasn't passed peer review for some very good reasons discussed in this thread. Because for 400 pages on this thread people like Schneibster and RC proved him wrong. Because Jones LIES about the context of the quotes in his paper. blink.gif

Since I don't presume you were involved in inserting the "NO EVIDENCE" lie into the NIST report, I don't presume that you should speak for them.

Getting harassed is a real concern, on both sides of the issue. But my point was more rhetorical - to show clearly how conflating the parties guilty of inserting such nonsense into the report in no way implies that everybody in NIST who had anything to do with the report was "in on it" , is absurd.


Met, are you implying that all those who were NOT 'in', the alleged NIST conspiracy, have NOT read the report they contributed to, and are NOT aware of how their work/words have been 'allegedly twisted' by 'filters' higher up? Or that THEY ARE ALL COWARDS who would out of fear etc. protect an alleged murdering administration responsible for 9/11? You seem to have little faith in the existence of at least ONE GOOD PERSON amongst all those who 'weren't 'in' on it.

Especially since MANY of those contributors would have already had GUT FEELING and PAPER AND PENCIL etc. EDUCATED estimates/guesses as to what those simulations/experiments SHOULD SHOW in view of their OWN 'professional experience'.

RC.
.

I certainly am implying that anybody in NIST who contributed to the report in any way, read if afterwards, including and especially the lie

QUOTE

NO EVIDENCE for a controlled demolition was found


and either already was or subsequently became aware of all the evidence for CD, has indeed chosen to keep their mouth shut about the subject. Certainly, I don't know of any such NIST employee who has publicly contradicted the "big lie". Do you?


As to why this should be the case, fear of job loss and persecution by the government are certainly plausible suggestions, and strike me as the most likely. It's certainly not hard to draw the conclusion that CD implies an inside job, and this (especially in light of all the other evidence pointing to government complicity) implies that agents within the US government were the ultimate perpetrators. Such an obvious chain of logic is sure to give many people pause.

Wassa matta wit you? Don't you watch "the Sopranos"? tongue.gif

Certainly, these strike me as much better hypotheses than shyness or indifference, e.g..

The VERY FACT that we have been posting material on the subject for 6 months shows the fallacy of this logic. Posters to this forum are multi-national. Posters to this forum can be totally anonymous.

Then there are people like Griffin, making money off speeches at every ultra liberal college in the country.

As does Scholars for9-11. Where people are signing their names and affiliations.

You too young to remember W&B and Deep Throat????

Even before the Internet there's ways to make the TRUTH public.

So given ALL this, what's keeping all those Scientists who don't agree with the NIST report from funneling damning info to those on the front line of the CD theory?

NADA
NOTHING
ZIP
ZILCH

The last bastion of your weak argument is that the people that investigated it know its a lie but are afraid to speak.

Yet PEOPLE ARE SPEAKING OPENLY ABOUT IT.

They make T-Shirts, Web-Sites, books and movies and sell the friggin things.
Its become a whole cottage industry.

Your argument has no merit.

Arthur
adoucette
QUOTE (JamesX+Feb 26 2006, 03:01 AM)
Too bad you can't answer Foxx's question.

Which Foxx question?

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

The original "The Towers fell with little to NO resistance" Foxx

or

The modified, "They fell slower than the debris since the towers were crushing the intact lower levels" Foxx

or the newly minted

Thermobaric Foxx, "Hey, that ReasonWhy figured it out, what DID cause the towers to MELT? (see pictures on my website),
"Why won't you answer me???'
(Ok, I double dare you (see pictures on my website))"

Its truly Pathetic.

He calls himself Foxx, but it should be Weasel.

Arthur
adoucette
QUOTE (frater plecticus+Feb 25 2006, 06:24 PM)
"COMBINATION OF FACTORS have NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE"... except  twice (+one) times that day....

Yeah,
The towers were built the same and there were two fairly identical planes that ran into them at roughly the same speed which yielded similar, though not identical results.
The other tower failed in a completely different fashion, but its CIRCUMSTANCES were ALSO unique.
So its STRANGE that UNIQUE circomstances yield UNIQUE results?

Dare I say it?
Nah, its early.

Arthur
Sensable
QUOTE
jack(x) said:
I don't want to read too much into your wacky ramblings, Artie, but it sounds a bit as if you're hot on the trail of Foxx's spam gang, too. Did you catch the "cash-for-clicks" paranoia bug from Schneiby or vice versa? Are all of you guys posting from the same psych ward?
Moron
Guest
Hows your crack whore mother james?
Commen sense
I certainly am implying that anybody in NIST who contributed to the report in any way, read if afterwards, including and especially the lie

NO EVIDENCE for a controlled demolition was found

and either already was or subsequently became aware of all the evidence for CD, has indeed chosen to keep their mouth shut about the subject. Certainly, I don't know of any such NIST employee who has publicly contradicted the "big lie". Do you?

That's because the big lie is from the conspiracy theorist and not the NIST. It's lunacy to suggest hundreds of scientist are in on the largest mass murder in US history.

QUOTE
As to why this should be the case, fear of job loss and persecution by the government are certainly plausible suggestions, and strike me as the most likely.


And yet much, much smaller conspiracies where American's never even died have been uncovered by whistleblowers who were happy to take whatever job loss or persecution in the name of justice. After 4 years not one has come out supporting the official CT lunacy. OOPS! I forgot, their isn't an official CT story because they can't even come together on the fantacy! Heh!

Wassa matta wit you? Don't you watch "the Sopranos"? Even in the Sopranos you have "Rats" Heh!
adoucette
James,

Do you have a PURPOSE for being here?

I've just reviewed your 83 posts and besides a FIXATION on Schneibster that then went off on a punctuation tangent and has now morphed into a Paranoia about people not "clicking on CT links" (wonder why?), you have posted essentially NOTHING about the WTC issue itself and NO PHYSICS what so ever.

So again, what brings you to a PHYSICS site?

For those who think I exaggerate here is the sum TOTAL of JamesX (aka Dweeb) postings since he joined.

PS it doesn't matter that I don't include what he's referring to, they are all essentially mindless anyway.

QUOTE (JamesX+)
I don't want to read too much into your wacky ramblings, Artie, but it sounds a bit as if you're hot on the trail of Foxx's spam gang, too. Did you catch the "cash-for-clicks" paranoia bug from Schneiby or vice versa? Are all of you guys posting from the same psych ward?

Mate, your fairy tale was shown to be an impossibility back on page one and none of your efforts to prop it up have warranted more than a chuckle or two. On the other hand, your kook nutter delusions about Foxx's nefarious activities are pure comedy gold. I'm afraid you're in no position to challenge anyone else's intelligence, mate. And judging from your swift descent into Schneibsterian paranoia, you might want to do yourself a favor and seek psychological counseling ASAP.
LMAO yeah, that's the one. It gets better every time you tell it. 

So which one of you foil hats uncovered this dastardly spam gang first?

And how is the investigation going?

That's almost as fascinating as your story about Foxx making millions off of tricking people into clicking his links.

Repeat yourself much, spammer?

So what you're trying to say is you're an idiot who never tires of making an a$$ of itself on public forums?

Fair enough, I guess.

Sorry, the ability to randomly capitalize words still doesn't make you a scientist.

But thanks for the laughs.

Nice capitalization, technique!

That's some impressive credentials.

Did they teach you how to capitalize VERY IMPORTANT WORDS in SCIENCE SCHOOL?
LOL really? Since when?

I'm not implying anything. Your molten telephone story is as idiotic as your name.

Oh, the hilarity. Too bad you can't answer Foxx's question.

That's a nice story. Too bad you can't answer Foxx's question.

How's that investigation going, Schnoob?

Have you caught the spammers yet?

Len, have you read this thread? Rodriguez' testimony is in no way inconsistent with any number of controlled demolition scenarios. This has already been discussed in this thread. If you haven't read it you might do the rest of us a courtesy and do so, so as not to keep repeating and rehashing.

Len, please accept my apologies. I re-read your post and indeed you wrote that you've researched this topic for "countless hours" - not years. Big difference. Sorry about that.

The 'plural' would be referring to two of Rodriguez' former co-workers (WTC maintenance workers) who share his views on the towers' destruction.

Len, I thought you said you've been researching this for years? And you've never heard of William Rodriguez? He was honored as a national hero for his resue efforts on September 11. He worked in the towers for 18 years and he and several of his former co-workers are convinced that the buildings were brought down with explosives. Last I heard he was suing the Bush administration.

If you need proof that he exists, try a search engine.

Uh oh, now he's more than one person AT THE SAME TIME

LMAO... I knew it was the fatass psychotic schizoid Schnoob!

Can't stay away from the fire that burned you, huh?

Seen 'Sane Engineer' or 'Candy' around lately?

How's the lawsuit going, buddy?

Hurry now, don't be late for your pyrotechnics tour!

Beat it, punk.

Indeed, you are mistaken. There's at least several WTC survivors that I know of who don't believe in the "buildings just fell down" fairy tale, most notably the person who is believed to be the last one to exit the North Tower alive, after re-entering the building three times to rescue others. Look it up, and while you're at it maybe do a little research before you make your next proclamation.

And you never even get a day off... 

Type, Arthur, type! Faster!

LMAO That's fu<king rich...

You're sick, Schneib. Get help.

Sorry, SchNOOB. You registered here on October 13 after this thread was brought to your attention. Find one longtime regular physorg poster to vouch for your activity on this board before your thorough discrediting on this thread and I'll... well, it's not going to happen, so nevermind.

Oooh, a "physorg regular" with no name... very impressive.

NEXT!
Awww now you're trying to build up some cred on other threads in the forum! That's adorable, Schnooby. Does it make you feel better after being so thoroughly and utterly discredited that you can't post on this thread while logged in? Foxx demolished you, you revealed yourself to be a psychotic kook and now all you can do is post nasty anonymous messages from the sidelines.

Hey, "Common Sense" did it, why not "Sane" "Engineer"?

You might want to develop a more distinctive style for this one before registering, though.

Wow, you found another "guest" who shares your opinion. Good work!

Sane" is a real stretch, too.

You're not an engineer and you're not fooling anyone, Schnoob.

Foxx demolished you. You're afraid to even log in here now.

Why not log in?
So how is the lawsuit coming along?

You're not fooling anyone, Schnoob.

What's the matter, Schnooby? Did your internet lawyer inform you that you are full of sh1t? Are you too embarassed to post as da real Schnoob these days? But you can't stay away, so we get spammed by lots of crappy 'guest' posts... your nastiness is so easy to recognize.

How's the lawsuit going?

How's the lawsuit going?

Uh oh, da Schnoob is freaking out again!

You mean right about when you, er, Schnozz first showed up? Agreed.

Good call.

Schnozz is very lucky to have such an adroit and timely entertainment industry insider such as yourself (who also knows a thing or two about IPs!) leaping to his semantic defense on a physics board. Thanks for sharing, Candy!

Why, thanks Schn.. er, Candy... for dropping by to provide such valuable insight from your industry. In Shillster's now-deleted pyschotic screed he threatened to "find you and axe you". Do you use the term like that in your industry as well?

Keep on wigglin', big boy. You may be a miserable failure at disinfo buy you're a priceless comedy goldmine. Cheers

Be sure to tell your internet lawyer all about the death threats you've been making... sport.

Heh!

I don't buy it.

PS: Break out some more of those videos. Don't be stingy.

Schnenster,

I never said anything about your wife's race. My comment was based on the fact that she looks scared of you in your wedding pictures and I can't imagine anyone marrying you unless there was some sort of financial arrangement or other material benefit. I'm not "caucasian" myself so I don't know how I'm supposed to interpret your comments about "the right race".

If you don't like insults maybe you should have considered that when you wrote your first post on this thread. Or any point along the way.

You can dish it out but you sure can't take it, ya big crybaby.

And I'm glad to see that you admitted to being a sociopathic sockpuppeteering fraud.
Oh cool, the repeating game. I can play that too.

Like I said, you don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to associations, old schizoid. Here you are constantly whining about Rove and Bush and "da real conspiracies" but every day you work in concert with a Diebold employee to obfuscate the truth. You are shameless scum. Now shut up and go cry into one of your plush toys and try not to have a another heart attack.

Btw, we've got cable internet at the compound - no need to "go back" anywhere.

You don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to associations, old buddy. Here you are constantly whining about Rove and Bush and "da real conspiracies" but every day you work in concert with a Diebold employee to obfuscate the truth. You are shameless scum. Now shut up and go cry into one of your plush toys and try not to have a another heart attack.

I don't know, you might get lonely. Just you, the mail-order bride, a bunch of stuffed animals and your multiple personalities.

You might want to keep your options open.

Talking to yourself again, buddy?

All you've got left are photos and videos that support the case for controlled demolition.

Thanks, got any more?

You're losing it, Schneib.

It's nice to see that you use the same moronic un-logic no matter what topic you address. Are you accusing Schnensible of trying frame da real Schneib? If not, your argument makes exactly zero sense. Hardly surprising coming from a professional (if mediocre) obfuscator.

I'm making an honest observation and I think it's relevant. Having read all of this thread, it's plainly obvious that Schneibster is fu<king around with multiple IDs. He's made several blatant slip ups with his log-ins and can't seem to keep his personas separate stylistically, either. This multiple personality game along with his namecalling and attempts to dehumanize his opponents by referring to them as "it" suggests that we may be dealing with a seriously disturbed individual here.
No, I've been reading the thread over the past month. I think you're a fraud.

Nope, not Foxx. Just someone who's read this whole thread and can see what you're doing here

Schnensable sez
QUOTE

the best explaination I heard so far is Schneibster's.


LMAO

Schneib, if you're going to post as "Sensable" please try to remember to throw in lots of random spelling errors.
It's so much more convincing that way...

JamesX
Less and less people believe in your foil hat fantasy every day.

smile.gif

Commen sense
QUOTE
You are quite right, that scientists don't (normally) refer to competing theories as Fairy Tales. However, I have never stated, or pretended, that I am a scientist. I have a degree in physics and mathematics, and therefore have good insight into how a scientist thinks.


That's an opinion. I don't think you know anything about how scientist think. That's also an opinion. And they are like a$$holes. Everyone has one.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
You are quite right, that scientists don't (normally) refer to competing theories as Fairy Tales. However, I have never stated, or pretended, that I am a scientist. I have a degree in physics and mathematics, and therefore have good insight into how a scientist thinks.


That's an opinion. I don't think you know anything about how scientist think. That's also an opinion. And they are like a$$holes. Everyone has one.

I may be going to graduate school for at least a master's degree in physics, so this situation may change. Perhaps then I will substitute the less provocative phrase "unlikely hypothesis" for "Fairy Tale".


This has been my suspestion all along. Almost all the Hoffman, Jones minions are school age children who look up to their professors like glassy eyed children look at their parents. Professors can't do no wrong can they. The government must be the bad guy or their world view falls apart. Mommy, daddy and the teacher are pure huh... blink.gif

I guess you want RC to continue to take abuse quitely while jack(x) continues to degrade and disrespect him. Where I come from you get what you give. If I was to stay quite while I was growing up in NY I would have been beaten daily like a rug in the desert.

You can't show weakness to these punks. If you do they smell it and things only get worse.
JamesX
All you show is weakness, all day long. You're a raging nutter who thinks Foxx is out to steal your soul by posting urls...

ph34r.gif
Commen sense
QUOTE (JamesX+Feb 26 2006, 03:30 PM)
All you show is weakness, all day long. You're a raging nutter who thinks Foxx is out to steal his soul by posting urls...

And you show what an A$$ you are because I'm not the one saying that. IDIOT
Sensable
QUOTE (JamesX+Feb 26 2006, 04:03 PM)
conspiracy kookwagon

Actually, you conspiracy idiots piled into your internet clown car and spilled out here. But you can call it a "kookwagon" sinse it also applies.
Guest
QUOTE (JamesX+Feb 26 2006, 04:03 PM)
Artie, I appreciate the free publicity but you didn't answer my question. Have you hopped on Schnooby-Doo's "clicks-for-cash" conspiracy kookwagon, too? I can understand if you're squeamish about coming right out and aligning yourself so closely with that type of mental illness in public. But if you really want to keep it hidden you shouldn't be dropping hints like that.

Why do you only come here on the weekends? Does your mother let you use the live cam comuter on the weekends?
metamars
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 26 2006, 01:26 PM)
QUOTE (metamars+Feb 26 2006, 08:12 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Feb 26 2006, 04:02 AM)
QUOTE (metamars+Feb 26 2006, 03:48 AM)
QUOTE (Common Sense+Feb 26 2006, 03:37 AM)
QUOTE
1) identify themselves


Why? To have a bunch of paranoid nutcases harass them and their family? They don't have to "in light of all the evidence articulated in Professor Jones' paper."

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
1) identify themselves


Why? To have a bunch of paranoid nutcases harass them and their family? They don't have to "in light of all the evidence articulated in Professor Jones' paper."

2) explain to us why we should call their statement anything other than a lie, in light of all the evidence articulated in Professor Jones' paper.


Because Jone's paper hasn't passed peer review for some very good reasons discussed in this thread. Because for 400 pages on this thread people like Schneibster and RC proved him wrong. Because Jones LIES about the context of the quotes in his paper. blink.gif

Since I don't presume you were involved in inserting the "NO EVIDENCE" lie into the NIST report, I don't presume that you should speak for them.

Getting harassed is a real concern, on both sides of the issue. But my point was more rhetorical - to show clearly how conflating the parties guilty of inserting such nonsense into the report in no way implies that everybody in NIST who had anything to do with the report was "in on it" , is absurd.


Met, are you implying that all those who were NOT 'in', the alleged NIST conspiracy, have NOT read the report they contributed to, and are NOT aware of how their work/words have been 'allegedly twisted' by 'filters' higher up? Or that THEY ARE ALL COWARDS who would out of fear etc. protect an alleged murdering administration responsible for 9/11? You seem to have little faith in the existence of at least ONE GOOD PERSON amongst all those who 'weren't 'in' on it.

Especially since MANY of those contributors would have already had GUT FEELING and PAPER AND PENCIL etc. EDUCATED estimates/guesses as to what those simulations/experiments SHOULD SHOW in view of their OWN 'professional experience'.

RC.
.

I certainly am implying that anybody in NIST who contributed to the report in any way, read if afterwards, including and especially the lie

QUOTE

NO EVIDENCE for a controlled demolition was found


and either already was or subsequently became aware of all the evidence for CD, has indeed chosen to keep their mouth shut about the subject. Certainly, I don't know of any such NIST employee who has publicly contradicted the "big lie". Do you?


As to why this should be the case, fear of job loss and persecution by the government are certainly plausible suggestions, and strike me as the most likely. It's certainly not hard to draw the conclusion that CD implies an inside job, and this (especially in light of all the other evidence pointing to government complicity) implies that agents within the US government were the ultimate perpetrators. Such an obvious chain of logic is sure to give many people pause.

Wassa matta wit you? Don't you watch "the Sopranos"? tongue.gif

Certainly, these strike me as much better hypotheses than shyness or indifference, e.g..

The VERY FACT that we have been posting material on the subject for 6 months shows the fallacy of this logic. Posters to this forum are multi-national. Posters to this forum can be totally anonymous.

Then there are people like Griffin, making money off speeches at every ultra liberal college in the country.

As does Scholars for9-11. Where people are signing their names and affiliations.

You too young to remember W&B and Deep Throat????

Even before the Internet there's ways to make the TRUTH public.

So given ALL this, what's keeping all those Scientists who don't agree with the NIST report from funneling damning info to those on the front line of the CD theory?

NADA
NOTHING
ZIP
ZILCH

The last bastion of your weak argument is that the people that investigated it know its a lie but are afraid to speak.

Yet PEOPLE ARE SPEAKING OPENLY ABOUT IT.

They make T-Shirts, Web-Sites, books and movies and sell the friggin things.
Its become a whole cottage industry.

Your argument has no merit.

Arthur

Actually, it has a lot of merit. Also, you failed to distinguish between John Q. Public, and those who are "supposed" to toe the line, like FEMA, NIST, NORAD, FAA, and Air Force employees. Especially, in the case of the last 3, those who were on duty the morning of 9/11 and had access to relevant information.

You can't seriously maintain that the public testimony of a whistle-blower is not worth a lot more than that of John Q. Public, do you? If John Q. Public has no relevant expertise, there is absolutely no doubt about the answer. When John Q. Public has a Ph.D. in civil engineering or physics, then the question can become debatable. Once you concede this, it's not hard to figure that there's even more pressure on these select individuals to keep their mouths shut.

And as for your fantasy of the downside of being a whistle-blower being "ZILCH", if that were the case, why is there a push for legislation to protest whistle-blowers like Sibel Edmonds? **


I don't have the references handy, but if you look at all the potential witnesses in the JFK assassination who died under mysterious circumstances both in the period directly after the assassination, as well as potential witnesses who similarly died in the period leading up to and during the work of the House Select Committee on Assassinations*, it's quite clear that getting whacked is a real possibility, and furthermore, you don't have to be a Federal employee to get hit.

Furthermore, I have already, on this thread, mentioned that Beverly Harris had to go outside the country to get a scientist with the requisite credentials who would publicly conclude that there was significant vote fraud, effected by rigged machines (don't remember the exact language). This is for a phenomena that didn't involve the mass murder of American citizens, and thus the assumption that one wasn't necessarily crossing murderers is a reasonable one.

Thus it is your argument that has no merit, based on a fanciful picture of human nature, and a completely unrealistic one regarding the corruption of the US government. This combination - Americans with no backbones, and an American government with no soul - is flirting with WW3, and fascism and totalitarianism at home.

Feel good about your propagandistic postings?

* You remember the House Select Committee on Assassinations, don't you? These were the Congressional Conspiracy Theorists who said

http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/selec...rt/part-1c.html
QUOTE (->
QUOTE

NO EVIDENCE for a controlled demolition was found


and either already was or subsequently became aware of all the evidence for CD, has indeed chosen to keep their mouth shut about the subject. Certainly, I don't know of any such NIST employee who has publicly contradicted the "big lie". Do you?


As to why this should be the case, fear of job loss and persecution by the government are certainly plausible suggestions, and strike me as the most likely. It's certainly not hard to draw the conclusion that CD implies an inside job, and this (especially in light of all the other evidence pointing to government complicity) implies that agents within the US government were the ultimate perpetrators. Such an obvious chain of logic is sure to give many people pause.

Wassa matta wit you? Don't you watch "the Sopranos"? tongue.gif

Certainly, these strike me as much better hypotheses than shyness or indifference, e.g..

The VERY FACT that we have been posting material on the subject for 6 months shows the fallacy of this logic. Posters to this forum are multi-national. Posters to this forum can be totally anonymous.

Then there are people like Griffin, making money off speeches at every ultra liberal college in the country.

As does Scholars for9-11. Where people are signing their names and affiliations.

You too young to remember W&B and Deep Throat????

Even before the Internet there's ways to make the TRUTH public.

So given ALL this, what's keeping all those Scientists who don't agree with the NIST report from funneling damning info to those on the front line of the CD theory?

NADA
NOTHING
ZIP
ZILCH

The last bastion of your weak argument is that the people that investigated it know its a lie but are afraid to speak.

Yet PEOPLE ARE SPEAKING OPENLY ABOUT IT.

They make T-Shirts, Web-Sites, books and movies and sell the friggin things.
Its become a whole cottage industry.

Your argument has no merit.

Arthur

Actually, it has a lot of merit. Also, you failed to distinguish between John Q. Public, and those who are "supposed" to toe the line, like FEMA, NIST, NORAD, FAA, and Air Force employees. Especially, in the case of the last 3, those who were on duty the morning of 9/11 and had access to relevant information.

You can't seriously maintain that the public testimony of a whistle-blower is not worth a lot more than that of John Q. Public, do you? If John Q. Public has no relevant expertise, there is absolutely no doubt about the answer. When John Q. Public has a Ph.D. in civil engineering or physics, then the question can become debatable. Once you concede this, it's not hard to figure that there's even more pressure on these select individuals to keep their mouths shut.

And as for your fantasy of the downside of being a whistle-blower being "ZILCH", if that were the case, why is there a push for legislation to protest whistle-blowers like Sibel Edmonds? **


I don't have the references handy, but if you look at all the potential witnesses in the JFK assassination who died under mysterious circumstances both in the period directly after the assassination, as well as potential witnesses who similarly died in the period leading up to and during the work of the House Select Committee on Assassinations*, it's quite clear that getting whacked is a real possibility, and furthermore, you don't have to be a Federal employee to get hit.

Furthermore, I have already, on this thread, mentioned that Beverly Harris had to go outside the country to get a scientist with the requisite credentials who would publicly conclude that there was significant vote fraud, effected by rigged machines (don't remember the exact language). This is for a phenomena that didn't involve the mass murder of American citizens, and thus the assumption that one wasn't necessarily crossing murderers is a reasonable one.

Thus it is your argument that has no merit, based on a fanciful picture of human nature, and a completely unrealistic one regarding the corruption of the US government. This combination - Americans with no backbones, and an American government with no soul - is flirting with WW3, and fascism and totalitarianism at home.

Feel good about your propagandistic postings?

* You remember the House Select Committee on Assassinations, don't you? These were the Congressional Conspiracy Theorists who said

http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/selec...rt/part-1c.html



The committee found that, to be precise and loyal to the facts it established, it, was compelled to find that President Kennedy was probably killed as a result of a conspiracy. The committee's finding that President Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy was premised on four factors:

    (1) Since the Warren Commission's and FBI's investigation into the possibility of a conspiracy was seriously flawed, their failure to develop evidence of a conspiracy could not be given independent weight.
    (2) The Warren Commission was, in fact, incorrect in concluding that Oswald and Ruby had no significant associations, and therefore its finding of no conspiracy was not reliable.
    (3) While it cannot be inferred from the significant associations of Oswald and Ruby that any of the major groups examined by the committee were involved in the assassination, a more limited conspiracy could not be ruled out.
  (4) There was a high probability that a second gunman, in fact, fired at the President. At the same time, the committee candidly stated, in expressing it finding of conspiracy in the Kennedy assassination, that it was "unable to identify the other gunman or the extent of the conspiracy.




** See justacitizen.com and libertycoalition.net
Commen sense
QUOTE (metamars+Feb 26 2006, 06:22 PM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 26 2006, 01:26 PM)
QUOTE (metamars+Feb 26 2006, 08:12 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Feb 26 2006, 04:02 AM)
QUOTE (metamars+Feb 26 2006, 03:48 AM)
QUOTE (Common Sense+Feb 26 2006, 03:37 AM)
QUOTE
1) identify themselves


Why? To have a bunch of paranoid nutcases harass them and their family? They don't have to "in light of all the evidence articulated in Professor Jones' paper."

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
1) identify themselves


Why? To have a bunch of paranoid nutcases harass them and their family? They don't have to "in light of all the evidence articulated in Professor Jones' paper."

2) explain to us why we should call their statement anything other than a lie, in light of all the evidence articulated in Professor Jones' paper.


Because Jone's paper hasn't passed peer review for some very good reasons discussed in this thread. Because for 400 pages on this thread people like Schneibster and RC proved him wrong. Because Jones LIES about the context of the quotes in his paper. blink.gif

Since I don't presume you were involved in inserting the "NO EVIDENCE" lie into the NIST report, I don't presume that you should speak for them.

Getting harassed is a real concern, on both sides of the issue. But my point was more rhetorical - to show clearly how conflating the parties guilty of inserting such nonsense into the report in no way implies that everybody in NIST who had anything to do with the report was "in on it" , is absurd.


Met, are you implying that all those who were NOT 'in', the alleged NIST conspiracy, have NOT read the report they contributed to, and are NOT aware of how their work/words have been 'allegedly twisted' by 'filters' higher up? Or that THEY ARE ALL COWARDS who would out of fear etc. protect an alleged murdering administration responsible for 9/11? You seem to have little faith in the existence of at least ONE GOOD PERSON amongst all those who 'weren't 'in' on it.

Especially since MANY of those contributors would have already had GUT FEELING and PAPER AND PENCIL etc. EDUCATED estimates/guesses as to what those simulations/experiments SHOULD SHOW in view of their OWN 'professional experience'.

RC.
.

I certainly am implying that anybody in NIST who contributed to the report in any way, read if afterwards, including and especially the lie

QUOTE

NO EVIDENCE for a controlled demolition was found


and either already was or subsequently became aware of all the evidence for CD, has indeed chosen to keep their mouth shut about the subject. Certainly, I don't know of any such NIST employee who has publicly contradicted the "big lie". Do you?


As to why this should be the case, fear of job loss and persecution by the government are certainly plausible suggestions, and strike me as the most likely. It's certainly not hard to draw the conclusion that CD implies an inside job, and this (especially in light of all the other evidence pointing to government complicity) implies that agents within the US government were the ultimate perpetrators. Such an obvious chain of logic is sure to give many people pause.

Wassa matta wit you? Don't you watch "the Sopranos"? tongue.gif

Certainly, these strike me as much better hypotheses than shyness or indifference, e.g..

The VERY FACT that we have been posting material on the subject for 6 months shows the fallacy of this logic. Posters to this forum are multi-national. Posters to this forum can be totally anonymous.

Then there are people like Griffin, making money off speeches at every ultra liberal college in the country.

As does Scholars for9-11. Where people are signing their names and affiliations.

You too young to remember W&B and Deep Throat????

Even before the Internet there's ways to make the TRUTH public.

So given ALL this, what's keeping all those Scientists who don't agree with the NIST report from funneling damning info to those on the front line of the CD theory?

NADA
NOTHING
ZIP
ZILCH

The last bastion of your weak argument is that the people that investigated it know its a lie but are afraid to speak.

Yet PEOPLE ARE SPEAKING OPENLY ABOUT IT.

They make T-Shirts, Web-Sites, books and movies and sell the friggin things.
Its become a whole cottage industry.

Your argument has no merit.

Arthur

Actually, it has a lot of merit. Also, you failed to distinguish between John Q. Public, and those who are "supposed" to toe the line, like FEMA, NIST, NORAD, FAA, and Air Force employees. Especially, in the case of the last 3, those who were on duty the morning of 9/11 and had access to relevant information.

You can't seriously maintain that the public testimony of a whistle-blower is not worth a lot more than that of John Q. Public, do you? If John Q. Public has no relevant expertise, there is absolutely no doubt about the answer. When John Q. Public has a Ph.D. in civil engineering or physics, then the question can become debatable. Once you concede this, it's not hard to figure that there's even more pressure on these select individuals to keep their mouths shut.

And as for your fantasy of the downside of being a whistle-blower being "ZILCH", if that were the case, why is there a push for legislation to protest whistle-blowers like Sibel Edmonds? **


I don't have the references handy, but if you look at all the potential witnesses in the JFK assassination who died under mysterious circumstances both in the period directly after the assassination, as well as potential witnesses who similarly died in the period leading up to and during the work of the House Select Committee on Assassinations*, it's quite clear that getting whacked is a real possibility, and furthermore, you don't have to be a Federal employee to get hit.

Furthermore, I have already, on this thread, mentioned that Beverly Harris had to go outside the country to get a scientist with the requisite credentials who would publicly conclude that there was significant vote fraud, effected by rigged machines (don't remember the exact language). This is for a phenomena that didn't involve the mass murder of American citizens, and thus the assumption that one wasn't necessarily crossing murderers is a reasonable one.

Thus it is your argument that has no merit, based on a fanciful picture of human nature, and a completely unrealistic one regarding the corruption of the US government. This combination - Americans with no backbones, and an American government with no soul - is flirting with WW3, and fascism and totalitarianism at home.

Feel good about your propagandistic postings?

* You remember the House Select Committee on Assassinations, don't you? These were the Congressional Conspiracy Theorists who said

http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/selec...rt/part-1c.html
QUOTE (->
QUOTE

NO EVIDENCE for a controlled demolition was found


and either already was or subsequently became aware of all the evidence for CD, has indeed chosen to keep their mouth shut about the subject. Certainly, I don't know of any such NIST employee who has publicly contradicted the "big lie". Do you?


As to why this should be the case, fear of job loss and persecution by the government are certainly plausible suggestions, and strike me as the most likely. It's certainly not hard to draw the conclusion that CD implies an inside job, and this (especially in light of all the other evidence pointing to government complicity) implies that agents within the US government were the ultimate perpetrators. Such an obvious chain of logic is sure to give many people pause.

Wassa matta wit you? Don't you watch "the Sopranos"? tongue.gif

Certainly, these strike me as much better hypotheses than shyness or indifference, e.g..

The VERY FACT that we have been posting material on the subject for 6 months shows the fallacy of this logic. Posters to this forum are multi-national. Posters to this forum can be totally anonymous.

Then there are people like Griffin, making money off speeches at every ultra liberal college in the country.

As does Scholars for9-11. Where people are signing their names and affiliations.

You too young to remember W&B and Deep Throat????

Even before the Internet there's ways to make the TRUTH public.

So given ALL this, what's keeping all those Scientists who don't agree with the NIST report from funneling damning info to those on the front line of the CD theory?

NADA
NOTHING
ZIP
ZILCH

The last bastion of your weak argument is that the people that investigated it know its a lie but are afraid to speak.

Yet PEOPLE ARE SPEAKING OPENLY ABOUT IT.

They make T-Shirts, Web-Sites, books and movies and sell the friggin things.
Its become a whole cottage industry.

Your argument has no merit.

Arthur

Actually, it has a lot of merit. Also, you failed to distinguish between John Q. Public, and those who are "supposed" to toe the line, like FEMA, NIST, NORAD, FAA, and Air Force employees. Especially, in the case of the last 3, those who were on duty the morning of 9/11 and had access to relevant information.

You can't seriously maintain that the public testimony of a whistle-blower is not worth a lot more than that of John Q. Public, do you? If John Q. Public has no relevant expertise, there is absolutely no doubt about the answer. When John Q. Public has a Ph.D. in civil engineering or physics, then the question can become debatable. Once you concede this, it's not hard to figure that there's even more pressure on these select individuals to keep their mouths shut.

And as for your fantasy of the downside of being a whistle-blower being "ZILCH", if that were the case, why is there a push for legislation to protest whistle-blowers like Sibel Edmonds? **


I don't have the references handy, but if you look at all the potential witnesses in the JFK assassination who died under mysterious circumstances both in the period directly after the assassination, as well as potential witnesses who similarly died in the period leading up to and during the work of the House Select Committee on Assassinations*, it's quite clear that getting whacked is a real possibility, and furthermore, you don't have to be a Federal employee to get hit.

Furthermore, I have already, on this thread, mentioned that Beverly Harris had to go outside the country to get a scientist with the requisite credentials who would publicly conclude that there was significant vote fraud, effected by rigged machines (don't remember the exact language). This is for a phenomena that didn't involve the mass murder of American citizens, and thus the assumption that one wasn't necessarily crossing murderers is a reasonable one.

Thus it is your argument that has no merit, based on a fanciful picture of human nature, and a completely unrealistic one regarding the corruption of the US government. This combination - Americans with no backbones, and an American government with no soul - is flirting with WW3, and fascism and totalitarianism at home.

Feel good about your propagandistic postings?

* You remember the House Select Committee on Assassinations, don't you? These were the Congressional Conspiracy Theorists who said

http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/selec...rt/part-1c.html



The committee found that, to be precise and loyal to the facts it established, it, was compelled to find that President Kennedy was probably killed as a result of a conspiracy. The committee's finding that President Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy was premised on four factors:

    (1) Since the Warren Commission's and FBI's investigation into the possibility of a conspiracy was seriously flawed, their failure to develop evidence of a conspiracy could not be given independent weight.
    (2) The Warren Commission was, in fact, incorrect in concluding that Oswald and Ruby had no significant associations, and therefore its finding of no conspiracy was not reliable.
    (3) While it cannot be inferred from the significant associations of Oswald and Ruby that any of the major groups examined by the committee were involved in the assassination, a more limited conspiracy could not be ruled out.
  (4) There was a high probability that a second gunman, in fact, fired at the President. At the same time, the committee candidly stated, in expressing it finding of conspiracy in the Kennedy assassination, that it was "unable to identify the other gunman or the extent of the conspiracy.




** See justacitizen.com and libertycoalition.net

Sibel Edmonds is my point. People have come out all over the place for less.

An uninformed JQ public means nothing to me. At one time JQ public thought slavery was a good thing.

Again, this is what happens in a REAL coverup. People like the ones below start jumping ship...

Thomas Packard acting FBI director: Summer before 9/11 Ashcroft told him he didn’t want to hear anything more about terrorist threats.

Larry Johnson former counter terrorism CIA: Rumsfeld set up special office to link Iraq and Al Qaeda Cherry picking Intel: Evidence is sent back saying “That’s garbage, that’s misleading, that misrepresents” then they would take the same brief to the vice president or one even worse.

Robert Baer: Cheney pushed CIA, Cheney said “Everybody knows Saddam has weapons of mass destruction, tell us what you know, What’s your best stuff?..”

Downing Street Memo says Bush wanted to remove Saddam though military action. “Evidence fixed around the policy”

Rice, Rove, Karen Hughes, Cheney have weekly closed door meetings on how to convince the american people.

John McLaughlin CIA deputy director: “We did not clear that particular [Niger] speech”… Tenets “Slam dunk” does not mean what the media thinks it means.

Michael Scheuer: Intel did not matter. We were going to war / Tenet researched 10 years worth of documents and found no connection to Al Qaeda. Tenet tells Bush / Administration yet administration continues to suggest connection.

Who is ‘Joe T’ and why was he the point man for analyzing nuclear weapon intel.

Gregory Thielmann State Dept intelligence: More and more people said intel on tubes were no good for a nuclear weapon. Official leak saying “Mushroom Cloud” misrepresents the intelligence community disagreement. Administration continues “No doubt” he has WMD. Tenet defends erroneous evidence while others in the CIA voice doubts. State department issues strong and lengthy decent. Niger uranium purchase “Highly Dubious”

Rand Baers National Security Council Resigns white house post and works against Bush “This is not peculiar of this white house. Pick a policy, go to the
Intelligence agencies, get your talking points”

CIA intel notes critical gaps in the evidence because of questionable reliability of many sources,

For the first time before a modern war Bush did not ask for National Intelligence Estimate. Congress demands it. NIE said Saddam not a threat.

White house Iraq group gives only evidence which supports policy while down playing decent.

Last minute dispute over Niger speech.

Tenet and Powell argue about intel.

Carl Ford Asst Sec of State, Intelligence: “This is all we got? And were making these firm judgments?

Powell not told about Curveball. Curveball was never debriefed by the CIA.

Col. Laurence Wilkerson: Evidence brought to the UN “It was anything but an intelligence document. It was a Chinese menu where you can pick and choose what you want”

A day before Powell’s UN speech a CIA skeptic had warned Curve Ball is a lair. A superior sends an E-mail reply saying “This wars going to happen regardless, the powers that be probably aren’t interested whither Curve ball knows what hes talking about.”

Powell’s speech riddled with misleading allegations. Not right out lies but worded in such a way as to mislead.

Scott Ritter ex UNSCUM weapon inspector: The evidence for war is not there. He goes on just about every TV station trying to stop the war.

Richard Clarke: Bush wanted to connect Iraq and 9/11.

Gen Clark: People in the pentagon told him Bush was going to war no matter what.

New memo: A memo of a two-hour meeting between the two leaders at the White House on January 31 2003 - nearly two months before the invasion - reveals that Mr Bush made it clear the US intended to invade whether or not there was a second UN resolution and even if UN inspectors found no evidence of a banned Iraqi weapons programme.

"The diplomatic strategy had to be arranged around the military planning", the president told Mr Blair. The prime minister is said to have raised no objection. He is quoted as saying he was "solidly with the president and ready to do whatever it took to disarm Saddam".

The disclosures come in a new edition of Lawless World, by Phillipe Sands, a QC and professor of international law at University College, London. Professor Sands last year exposed the doubts shared by Foreign Office lawyers about the legality of the invasion in disclosures which eventually forced the prime minister to publish the full legal advice given to him by the attorney general, Lord Goldsmith.

The memo seen by Prof Sands reveals:
• Mr Bush told Mr Blair that the US was so worried about the failure to find hard evidence against Saddam that it thought of "flying U2 reconnaissance aircraft planes with fighter cover over Iraq, painted in UN colours". Mr Bush added: "If Saddam fired on them, he would be in breach [of UN resolutions]".
___________________________


Why don't you focus on this?

PS Don't act like JQ public didn't have "Deep Throat" and Woodward and Burnstin before the they got up in arms about watergate. Also don't act like there were more than just a few involved in the cover up. You're just making my point. Even that few people couldn't keep it a secret long.
metamars
Regarding whistle-blowers, the following was posted today at 911blogger.com. No, I have no idea whether "Norton Peabody" is a real person or not, and I'm sure that his post was not verified:

QUOTE

My cousin is a structural engineer with the firm that built #7 and close to retirement. I asked him about his take on it and collapse of #7.

His words-

"I don't want to discuss this with you or anyone, ever. I have a family to think about, you jerk, and what's done is done. I don't ever want to discuss this with you again."

That might explain a little bit the reticence of those who ought to be "crawling out of the woodwork" to expose this.

They're scared to death.
Norton Peabody | 02.26.06 - 9:46 am | #


Commen sense
QUOTE (metamars+Feb 26 2006, 06:59 PM)
Regarding whistle-blowers, the following was posted today at 911blogger.com. No, I have no idea whether "Norton Peabody" is a real person or not, and I'm sure that his post was not verified:

QUOTE

My cousin is a structural engineer with the firm that built #7 and close to retirement. I asked him about his take on it and collapse of #7.

His words-

"I don't want to discuss this with you or anyone, ever. I have a family to think about, you jerk, and what's done is done. I don't ever want to discuss this with you again."

That might explain a little bit the reticence of those who ought to be "crawling out of the woodwork" to expose this.

They're scared to death.
Norton Peabody | 02.26.06 - 9:46 am | #

I know you are desperate to latch on to anything which supports your claims but come on... A third party internet forum member? Is any evidence which supports your case not scrutinized?

He sounds eerily like the guy who said he was Paul Isaaic.. ph34r.gif
Foxx
User posted image

User posted image

User posted image

QUOTE
by RC
Have you ever seen a 'cascade' of GLOWING EMBERS ? Being as how they are 'suspended/entrained' in a hot fluid (air/gases) 'carrier' that FLOWS like a 'molten stream' it WOULD LOOK LIKE a molten cascade, wouldn't it? And if one had actually melting window aluminium and office furniture/machine plastics entrained with those embers, they TOO would FLOW, wouldn't they?


Aussie-american clone, you often make claims that you are a 'scientist'. Please explain to us your scientific qualifications and area of expertise,...

or would you rather hide behind the vague proclamation that you are just a 'generic scientist' ? Frankly, I find it very difficult to believe that you have any scientific background in view of your writings such as the above posted nonsense.

You make no specific scientific claims in the above, and your words are couched in obfuscation. You ask if I have ever seen a cascade of glowing embers. Yes, often...

usually associated with metal cutting operations (which the above pictures clearly resemble).

Your next statement that the 'embers' appear to be to be a molten stream seems accurate enough, although I see no need for the language you have chosen to state that. You may impress children with your 'scientific-sounding' assembly of words, but I am not impressed at all, and find your particular assemblage representative of someone who has no scientific background at all, but wishes to appear as if they do.

Your third statement that molten aluminum or plastics might be the source readily exposes your lack of knowledge in the fields of science (especially related to metallurgy and more importantly simple logic).

Computers were not suspended from the ceiling, and it is plain to see from the pictures that the source of these molten embers were falling from the ceiling of that particular storey.

The source of the molten metal is also clearly from inside the building and it is quite obvious they are not coming from the aluminum facade panels... so what are you suggesting would be the source of the aluminum... bits of the plane?

If so, you again exhibit your lack of knowledge and logic. Notice the color of the molten 'flowing embers'...this tells us a lot about what could be melting in the video...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2...raplanet+9%2F11

It is quite apparent that the color of this burning/melting material is a reddish-orange leaning towards yellow to white in appearance. The color is distinctly more yellow that the flames from burning office furnishings which can be seen at the corner of the building. This gives us a clue to its composition.

Aluminum melts at ~ 660 deg C ( 1220 F). It never reaches the color (shown in the video) before melting. Here is a chart which gives temperature color indicators for heat affected metals. It is quite clear from this chart that what we are seeing as molten material is clearly NOT aluminum.

user posted image

So, (once again) it is clearly shown that you are not being 'scientific' at all in your above statements.




Cheers



reasonwhy
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 26 2006, 12:04 PM)
User posted image

User posted image

User posted image

QUOTE
by RC
Have you ever seen a 'cascade' of GLOWING EMBERS ? Being as how they are 'suspended/entrained' in a hot fluid (air/gases) 'carrier' that FLOWS like a 'molten stream' it WOULD LOOK LIKE a molten cascade, wouldn't it? And if one had actually melting window aluminium and office furniture/machine plastics entrained with those embers, they TOO would FLOW, wouldn't they?


Aussie-american clone, you often make claims that you are a 'scientist'. Please explain to us your scientific qualifications and area of expertise,...

or would you rather hide behind the vague proclamation that you are just a 'generic scientist' ? Frankly, I find it very difficult to believe that you have any scientific background in view of your writings such as the above posted nonsense.

You make no specific scientific claims in the above, and your words are couched in obfuscation. You ask if I have ever seen a cascade of glowing embers. Yes, often...

usually associated with metal cutting operations (which the above pictures clearly resemble).

Your next statement that the 'embers' appear to be to be a molten stream seems accurate enough, although I see no need for the language you have chosen to state that. You may impress children with your 'scientific-sounding' assembly of words, but I am not impressed at all, and find your particular assemblage representative of someone who has no scientific background at all, but wishes to appear as if they do.

Your third statement that molten aluminum or plastics might be the source readily exposes your lack of knowledge in the fields of science (especially related to metallurgy and more importantly simple logic).

Computers were not suspended from the ceiling, and it is plain to see from the pictures that the source of these molten embers were falling from the ceiling of that particular storey.

The source of the molten metal is also clearly from inside the building and it is quite obvious they are not coming from the aluminum facade panels... so what are you suggesting would be the source of the aluminum... bits of the plane?

If so, you again exhibit your lack of knowledge and logic. Notice the color of the molten 'flowing embers'...this tells us a lot about what could be melting in the video...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2...raplanet+9%2F11

It is quite apparent that the color of this burning/melting material is a reddish-orange leaning towards yellow to white in appearance. The color is distinctly more yellow that the flames from burning office furnishings which can be seen at the corner of the building. This gives us a clue to its composition.

Aluminum melts at ~ 660 deg C ( 1220 F). It never reaches the color (shown in the video) before melting. Here is a chart which gives temperature color indicators for heat affected metals. It is quite clear from this chart that what we are seeing as molten material is clearly NOT aluminum.

user posted image

So, (once again) it is clearly shown that you are not being 'scientific' at all in your above statements.




Cheers


Watch this video from a slightly different angle. The area the sparks are concentrated initiate the collapse of the exterior columns.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=75...=9%2F11+footage
brian
Reality Check, your expertise lies here so can I ask, which of the following words would you make big?

"It is already possible to know, beyond a reasonable doubt, one very important thing: the destruction of the World Trade Centre was an inside job, orchestrated by terrorists within our own government."

I swither between "beyond a reasonable doubt" and "inside job" myself - maybe both or perhaps THEM ALL??


The Destruction of the World Trade Center: Why the Official Account Cannot Be True

by David Ray Griffin, Ph.D.

http://911review.com/articles/griffin/nyc1.html
Foxx
Also, RC...

Further, it is also clear from the video around the 01:00 minute mark that the drips falling from the melting area are white hot... which gives an indication from the chart above that the temperature of these drips was in the range of 1000 - 1200 C ... far beyond the temperatures at which aluminum or plastics melt at. This is all simple scientific deduction & logic --- something which is exposed in your writings that you are sadly lacking.

User posted image

newton
QUOTE (brian+Feb 26 2006, 09:09 PM)
Reality Check, your expertise lies here so can I ask, which of the following words would you make big?

"It is already possible to know, beyond a reasonable doubt, one very important thing: the destruction of the World Trade Centre was an inside job, orchestrated by terrorists within our own government."

I swither between "beyond a reasonable doubt" and "inside job" myself - maybe both or perhaps THEM ALL??


The Destruction of the World Trade Center: Why the Official Account Cannot Be True

by David Ray Griffin, Ph.D.

http://911review.com/articles/griffin/nyc1.html

hey, i can help, brian. not only CIA DESK AGENT SHILLS from DIVISION FIVE know how to CAPITALISE.

"it is already possible to KNOW, beyond a reasonable doubt, one VERY important thing: the destruction of the world trade centre WAS an INSIDE JOB, orchestrated by terrorists WITHIN our OWN government."

i think, if RC was on our side, he would do it like this....

"It is already POSSIBLE to know, beyond a REASONABLE DOUBT, one very important thing: the destruction of the World Trade Centre was an inside JOB, orchestrated BY TERRORISTS within our own government."

....hence obfuscating the MEANING. he even OBFUSCATES his OWN posts, LOL!
adoucette
Can anyone identify these buildings?

Are they the same building?

http://home.debitel.net/user/andreas.bunkahle/jpg/Plate8.JPG

User posted image

Arthur
RealityCheck
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 26 2006, 08:04 PM)
User posted image

User posted image

User posted image

QUOTE
by RC
Have you ever seen a 'cascade' of GLOWING EMBERS ? Being as how they are 'suspended/entrained' in a hot fluid (air/gases) 'carrier' that FLOWS like a 'molten stream' it WOULD LOOK LIKE a molten cascade, wouldn't it? And if one had actually melting window aluminium and office furniture/machine plastics entrained with those embers, they TOO would FLOW, wouldn't they?


Aussie-american clone, you often make claims that you are a 'scientist'. Please explain to us your scientific qualifications and area of expertise,...

or would you rather hide behind the vague proclamation that you are just a 'generic scientist' ? Frankly, I find it very difficult to believe that you have any scientific background in view of your writings such as the above posted nonsense.

You make no specific scientific claims in the above, and your words are couched in obfuscation. You ask if I have ever seen a cascade of glowing embers. Yes, often...

usually associated with metal cutting operations (which the above pictures clearly resemble).

Your next statement that the 'embers' appear to be to be a molten stream seems accurate enough, although I see no need for the language you have chosen to state that. You may impress children with your 'scientific-sounding' assembly of words, but I am not impressed at all, and find your particular assemblage representative of someone who has no scientific background at all, but wishes to appear as if they do.

Your third statement that molten aluminum or plastics might be the source readily exposes your lack of knowledge in the fields of science (especially related to metallurgy and more importantly simple logic).

Computers were not suspended from the ceiling, and it is plain to see from the pictures that the source of these molten embers were falling from the ceiling of that particular storey.

The source of the molten metal is also clearly from inside the building and it is quite obvious they are not coming from the aluminum facade panels... so what are you suggesting would be the source of the aluminum... bits of the plane?

If so, you again exhibit your lack of knowledge and logic. Notice the color of the molten 'flowing embers'...this tells us a lot about what could be melting in the video...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2...raplanet+9%2F11

It is quite apparent that the color of this burning/melting material is a reddish-orange leaning towards yellow to white in appearance. The color is distinctly more yellow that the flames from burning office furnishings which can be seen at the corner of the building. This gives us a clue to its composition.

Aluminum melts at ~ 660 deg C ( 1220 F). It never reaches the color (shown in the video) before melting. Here is a chart which gives temperature color indicators for heat affected metals. It is quite clear from this chart that what we are seeing as molten material is clearly NOT aluminum.

user posted image

So, (once again) it is clearly shown that you are not being 'scientific' at all in your above statements.




Cheers




QUOTE (->
QUOTE
by RC
Have you ever seen a 'cascade' of GLOWING EMBERS ? Being as how they are 'suspended/entrained' in a hot fluid (air/gases) 'carrier' that FLOWS like a 'molten stream' it WOULD LOOK LIKE a molten cascade, wouldn't it? And if one had actually melting window aluminium and office furniture/machine plastics entrained with those embers, they TOO would FLOW, wouldn't they?


Aussie-american clone, you often make claims that you are a 'scientist'. Please explain to us your scientific qualifications and area of expertise,...

or would you rather hide behind the vague proclamation that you are just a 'generic scientist' ? Frankly, I find it very difficult to believe that you have any scientific background in view of your writings such as the above posted nonsense.

You make no specific scientific claims in the above, and your words are couched in obfuscation. You ask if I have ever seen a cascade of glowing embers. Yes, often...

usually associated with metal cutting operations (which the above pictures clearly resemble).

Your next statement that the 'embers' appear to be to be a molten stream seems accurate enough, although I see no need for the language you have chosen to state that. You may impress children with your 'scientific-sounding' assembly of words, but I am not impressed at all, and find your particular assemblage representative of someone who has no scientific background at all, but wishes to appear as if they do.

Your third statement that molten aluminum or plastics might be the source readily exposes your lack of knowledge in the fields of science (especially related to metallurgy and more importantly simple logic).

Computers were not suspended from the ceiling, and it is plain to see from the pictures that the source of these molten embers were falling from the ceiling of that particular storey.

The source of the molten metal is also clearly from inside the building and it is quite obvious they are not coming from the aluminum facade panels... so what are you suggesting would be the source of the aluminum... bits of the plane?

If so, you again exhibit your lack of knowledge and logic. Notice the color of the molten 'flowing embers'...this tells us a lot about what could be melting in the video...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2...raplanet+9%2F11

It is quite apparent that the color of this burning/melting material is a reddish-orange leaning towards yellow to white in appearance. The color is distinctly more yellow that the flames from burning office furnishings which can be seen at the corner of the building. This gives us a clue to its composition.

Aluminum melts at ~ 660 deg C ( 1220 F). It never reaches the color (shown in the video) before melting. Here is a chart which gives temperature color indicators for heat affected metals. It is quite clear from this chart that what we are seeing as molten material is clearly NOT aluminum.

user posted image

So, (once again) it is clearly shown that you are not being 'scientific' at all in your above statements.




Cheers




Also, RC...

Further, it is also clear from the video around the 01:00 minute mark that the drips falling from the melting area are white hot... which gives an indication from the chart above that the temperature of these drips was in the range of 1000 - 1200 C ... far beyond the temperatures at which aluminum or plastics melt at. This is all simple scientific deduction & logic --- something which is exposed in your writings that you are sadly lacking.

User posted image


Hello Foxx.

As to my qualifications as a scientist, you will already know my life situation both personally and occupationally...or have you conveniently forgotten my past posts on that subject? So please don't get on your high horse if YOU cannot match my experience in real science/problemsolving/troubleshooting in all areas of science/industry/commerce (instead of spending my life in UFO/CT/political/mercenary/religious/paranoid wild-goose chases, like some here).

And as your extensive experience/expertise in building construction has not quite gelled for you, the 'ceiling' membrane/structure of one story is usually (surprise surprise) the 'floor' of the story immediately above. You would have seen that from an earlier post in which this was pointed out. But I guess you missed it in your hurry to grasp at anything now. Consider: are the floor perimeters there 'damaged' and disconnected/separated somewhat by FIRE/IMPACT from the perimeter walls? Any REASONABLE and experienced scientist would immediately realise (using Occam's Razor) that there would be 'gaps' through which accumulated' embers/molten plastics/alumuminium (and 'billiant-white' Calcium Compounds from the 'fire calcined' concrete-floor/drywall-partitions) would 'cascade' through that 'floor' edge and onto the story below. I notice that there was plenty of time, office/plane/fixture&fittings, and hot, widespread burning of same to produce all those things by the time of local collapse. And as pointed out to you earlier, when a collection of fine/liquid burning materials is entrained in a 'carrier fluid' (in this case gases/air), it will FLOW and CASCADE exactly like you see there. Just as a 'real' (and not just a "Hoffman' type) pyroclastic cloud/stream can FLOW and CASCADE, heh?

So Foxx, just what is so hard to understand about all that burning debris/embers etc being SHIFTED and disturbed by the FAILING, buckling/distorting/shifting floor-trusses and outer perimeter columns; such that there will occur random 'fuid-like' cascades of glowing/flowing burning and 'molten' debris just before local collapse? Any fireman will fill you in on anything obvious that you may have missed in your vast experience to date. Moreover, if anyone here has ever shovelled glowing ash and embers from a deep 'pile' of embers (after a celebration bonfire perhaps), they will immediately know that there is hardly any 'weight' involved. And also that the 'movement' of the still glowing/burning bed of ashes/embers resembles a 'fluid mass'...mainly because the hot gases STILL BEING PRODUCED from the surfaces of even 'slowed' combustion both partially suspend and 'lubricate' the lightweight ash/embers just like in a 'flowing' pyroclastic cloud.

Now, as to the 'colour spectrum' presented by the burning/glowing embers/concrete dust etc. Tell me Foxx, are you familiar with those good nifty Camping Lanterns which burn KEROSENE (or other sufficiently convenient, hot-burn fuels) to heat that surrounding 'mantle' material so that it 're-radiats' and GLOWS with a clean WHITE light?

So unless you know the exact composition of that ember/ash/molten 'cascade' from the floor above (which would be the 'ceiling' of the floor below, remember?), Occam's Razor DEMANDS that one FIRST considers the OBVIOUS MIX of materials and their respective 'spectrum' output upon high-heating, before going into fantasyland for the 'exotic'....that is, you WOULD, unless you are a self-professed NON-scientist, UFO/CTer-cum-paranoid political/religious/mercenary type of observer.

.
Now Foxx, I have been reasonable in reply to your disparaging post. MOREOVER, the 'justification' and explanation' traffic seems to be directed only ONE WAY by you and your cohort of even less-scientific/impartial 'supporters/associates' (can't you have a word with the most useless among them? They do nothing AT ALL for your cause or for whatever level of respect you may still command here).

You will agree, I hope, that ALL the assertions AGAINST Occam's Razor are being presented in the FIRST instance by YOU and yours ever since you came to PhysorgForums. I and others at PhysorgForums have presented reasonable Occam's Razor observations/hypotheses in reply which have YET to be seriously challenged, let alone refuted, by ANY physics/proof in support of your ANTI-Occam's Razor 'exotic' assertions.

In short, you have had long enough, and been tolerated sufficiently, to have had the opportunity MORE THAN ONCE for 'your side' of the 'debate' to present your DEFINITIVE 'killer' Physics explanations/proofs in support of your 'exotic' assertions. Where ARE these 'killer' explanations from YOUR side for YOUR assertions? As everyone here can now see for themselves (especially of late), all at Physorg have used more than enough Basic Physics (both theoretical and practical/applied) to easily 'falsify' ALL the (knowing/unknowing) lies and ignorant misunderstandings, assertions and pseudo-science so far put by your 'side'.

How about NOW doing what I suggested earlier...

Forget the politics/religion/mercenary sidetracking and just get together with your UFO/CT etc. mates, and put together a logically/scientifically coherent (and preferably, relevant) categorised presentation of whatever 'assertions' you have to make (again, preferably excluding those which have already been soundly and scientifically 'falsified'), and then we can work more 'cleanly' and efficiently through whatever you have left. We will again present Occam's Razor and cut through the BS, while you again try to stem the tide of OBVIOUS 'explanations' which will occur to even the youngest science/physicist/chemistry student here at PhyorgForums. How's that? Fair? Go to it, mate...and good luck!

Cheers all!

RC.
.
RealityCheck
Hi metamars!

I read your recent posts re NIST 'whistleblowers' (or the lack of same) in view of you alleging 'misrepresentaion' by 'official censors/twisters' of the final report.

Are you implying that, since you agree that not all scientists contributing to the report are 'in on the coverup', that all those scientists are afraid to speak up because of 'self-interest' which over-rides their duty and conscience regarding such an alleged coverup of mass murder?

Do you ACCUSE a large number of UNKNOWN and/or UN-NAMED 'john doe/jane doe' scientific contributors to the NIST report, of knowingly and selfishly, by their continuing supposed 'silence' about a supposed 'misrepresentation' of their contributions/conclusions, of aiding and abetting murderers after the fact, and so perverting the course of justice, by WITHHOLDING supposed 'evidence' of a cover up of a mass murder?

Just want to get you straight, mate. Cheers!

RC.
.
RealityCheck
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Feb 26 2006, 08:55 PM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 26 2006, 12:04 PM)
User posted image

User posted image

User posted image

QUOTE
by RC
Have you ever seen a 'cascade' of GLOWING EMBERS ? Being as how they are 'suspended/entrained' in a hot fluid (air/gases) 'carrier' that FLOWS like a 'molten stream' it WOULD LOOK LIKE a molten cascade, wouldn't it? And if one had actually melting window aluminium and office furniture/machine plastics entrained with those embers, they TOO would FLOW, wouldn't they?


Aussie-american clone, you often make claims that you are a 'scientist'. Please explain to us your scientific qualifications and area of expertise,...

or would you rather hide behind the vague proclamation that you are just a 'generic scientist' ? Frankly, I find it very difficult to believe that you have any scientific background in view of your writings such as the above posted nonsense.

You make no specific scientific claims in the above, and your words are couched in obfuscation. You ask if I have ever seen a cascade of glowing embers. Yes, often...

usually associated with metal cutting operations (which the above pictures clearly resemble).

Your next statement that the 'embers' appear to be to be a molten stream seems accurate enough, although I see no need for the language you have chosen to state that. You may impress children with your 'scientific-sounding' assembly of words, but I am not impressed at all, and find your particular assemblage representative of someone who has no scientific background at all, but wishes to appear as if they do.

Your third statement that molten aluminum or plastics might be the source readily exposes your lack of knowledge in the fields of science (especially related to metallurgy and more importantly simple logic).

Computers were not suspended from the ceiling, and it is plain to see from the pictures that the source of these molten embers were falling from the ceiling of that particular storey.

The source of the molten metal is also clearly from inside the building and it is quite obvious they are not coming from the aluminum facade panels... so what are you suggesting would be the source of the aluminum... bits of the plane?

If so, you again exhibit your lack of knowledge and logic. Notice the color of the molten 'flowing embers'...this tells us a lot about what could be melting in the video...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2...raplanet+9%2F11

It is quite apparent that the color of this burning/melting material is a reddish-orange leaning towards yellow to white in appearance. The color is distinctly more yellow that the flames from burning office furnishings which can be seen at the corner of the building. This gives us a clue to its composition.

Aluminum melts at ~ 660 deg C ( 1220 F). It never reaches the color (shown in the video) before melting. Here is a chart which gives temperature color indicators for heat affected metals. It is quite clear from this chart that what we are seeing as molten material is clearly NOT aluminum.

user posted image

So, (once again) it is clearly shown that you are not being 'scientific' at all in your above statements.




Cheers


Watch this video from a slightly different angle. The area the sparks are concentrated initiate the collapse of the exterior columns.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=75...=9%2F11+footage


Hi reasonwhy!

Could it be the other way round, do you think? That is, could it be that the last-minute re-adjustment/failing movements/vibrations etc. of the floor/wall structures be CAUSING the piles of ash/embers etc to shift and partially cascade out the gaps/windows from the floor/ceiling between the levels affected? Cheers!

RC.
.
Lon Waters
A brief observation before I step back out the way and let you folks carry on. I've noticed that I can discern the level of discourse on any given page by checking the google ads. For instance, on the page from whence I am submitting this appears:

Ads by Google
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Books For Children
Find Stories & Popular Books Tips for Children's books

Make your own interpretation.
newton
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Feb 26 2006, 11:59 PM)


Hi reasonwhy!

Could it be the other way round, do you think? That is, could it be that the last-minute re-adjustment/failing movements/vibrations etc. of the floor/wall structures be CAUSING the piles of ash/embers etc to shift and partially cascade out the gaps/windows from the floor/ceiling between the levels affected? Cheers!

RC.
.

did YOU ever think it's the other way around? of course not, as your 'reality' filter would not allow.

there can be only one! (explanation)

i must admit, you do impressive backflips.
RealityCheck
QUOTE (brian+Feb 26 2006, 09:09 PM)
Reality Check, your expertise lies here so can I ask, which of the following words would you make big?

"It is already possible to know, beyond a reasonable doubt, one very important thing: the destruction of the World Trade Centre was an inside job, orchestrated by terrorists within our own government."

I swither between "beyond a reasonable doubt" and "inside job" myself - maybe both or perhaps THEM ALL??


The Destruction of the World Trade Center: Why the Official Account Cannot Be True

by David Ray Griffin, Ph.D.

http://911review.com/articles/griffin/nyc1.html


Ahhh, brian. Well, we all now know where your expertise lay: Irrelevance. It's becoming an art form with you, isn't it? Will you compete for your country (poor nation) in the 'Incompetency Olympics'?

Still shilling for griffin and the terrorist money-making sites, I see. You have no conscience when it comes to making a buck, obviously.

Still sad, incompetent brian.

RC.
.
RealityCheck
QUOTE (newton+Feb 26 2006, 10:16 PM)
QUOTE (brian+Feb 26 2006, 09:09 PM)
Reality Check, your expertise lies here so can I ask, which of the following words would you make big?

"It is already possible to know, beyond a reasonable doubt, one very important thing: the destruction of the World Trade Centre was an inside job, orchestrated by terrorists within our own government."

I swither between "beyond a reasonable doubt" and "inside job" myself - maybe both or perhaps THEM ALL??


The Destruction of the World Trade Center: Why the Official Account Cannot Be True

by David Ray Griffin, Ph.D.

http://911review.com/articles/griffin/nyc1.html

hey, i can help, brian. not only CIA DESK AGENT SHILLS from DIVISION FIVE know how to CAPITALISE.

"it is already possible to KNOW, beyond a reasonable doubt, one VERY important thing: the destruction of the world trade centre WAS an INSIDE JOB, orchestrated by terrorists WITHIN our OWN government."

i think, if RC was on our side, he would do it like this....

"It is already POSSIBLE to know, beyond a REASONABLE DOUBT, one very important thing: the destruction of the World Trade Centre was an inside JOB, orchestrated BY TERRORISTS within our own government."

....hence obfuscating the MEANING. he even OBFUSCATES his OWN posts, LOL!


Again does one useless idiot (newton) use for 'foundation arguments' the empty soundings of another useless idiot (brian).

Oh, the Irony...Oh, the Humanity!

RC.
.
newton
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Feb 27 2006, 12:08 AM)
QUOTE (brian+Feb 26 2006, 09:09 PM)
Reality Check, your expertise lies here so can I ask, which of the following words would you make big?

"It is already possible to know, beyond a reasonable doubt, one very important thing: the destruction of the World Trade Centre was an inside job, orchestrated by terrorists within our own government."

I swither between "beyond a reasonable doubt" and "inside job" myself - maybe both or perhaps THEM ALL??


The Destruction of the World Trade Center: Why the Official Account Cannot Be True

by David Ray Griffin, Ph.D.

http://911review.com/articles/griffin/nyc1.html


Ahhh, brian. Well, we all now know where your expertise lay: Irrelevance. It's becoming an art form with you, isn't it? Will you compete for your country (poor nation) in the 'Incompetency Olympics'?

Still shilling for griffin and the terrorist money-making sites, I see. You have no conscience when it coms to making a buck, I see.

Still sad, incompetent brian.

RC.
.

geez, for a guy who's not that interested in american politics, you sure do seem to spend ALL OF YOUR TIME trying to defend the official FAIRY TALE(thank you, lon, for the signifigant REALITY(formerly known as physics) argument).
shagster
The piston effect will happen in the collapse of WTC7 also. WTC7 collapsed from bottom to top for the most part. There will be a pressure buildup in the floors that haven't yet been destroyed as the collapse occurs. It's like a piston effectively moving from bottom to top. It may be even more pronounced in a bottom-to-top collapse since threre is solid ground at the bottom acting as the piston as opposed to a layer of debris falling from top to bottom as in WTC1 and WTC2.

I'd assume most of the windows of WTC7 were sealed as they were in WTC1 and WTC2. A buildup of pressure and jets out broken windows is not unusual.

The falling debris layer in WTC1 and WTC2 wasn't like solid like the ground as in WTC7 but there was enough material moving downward to create a piston effect. The way the dust spread outward at ground level at high speed at the end of the collapse of WTC1 and WTC2 is a glaring example of the piston effect, not to mention some of the jets that were seen spraying out windows during the collapse.

It would be superfluous to blow up floors much higher than ground level in WTC7 anyway. The collapse started near ground level due to structural damage from the fall of WTC1 and fires that burned most of the day. Gravity did the work of the collapse. Demolition packs at higher levels would serve no purpose in a controlled demolition of WTC7.
RealityCheck
QUOTE (newton+Feb 27 2006, 12:06 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Feb 26 2006, 11:59 PM)


Hi reasonwhy!

Could it be the other way round, do you think? That is, could it be that the last-minute re-adjustment/failing movements/vibrations etc. of the floor/wall structures be CAUSING the piles of ash/embers etc to shift and partially cascade out the gaps/windows from the floor/ceiling between the levels affected? Cheers!

RC.
.

did YOU ever think it's the other way around? of course not, as your 'reality' filter would not allow.

there can be only one! (explanation)

i must admit, you do impressive backflips.


Backflips????

Ignorant idiot (yes newton, you're witty but ignorant and witless with it), have you ever heard of Occam's Razor?

This demands that one first considers the obvious explanation. In this case, as you would have seen from my above response to Foxx's question, the obvious explanation is that it is a cascade of embers/glowing dust etc from the floor/ceiling structure between the two levels affected.

And that that cascade was probably due to movement preceding imminent failure of the floor/wall structures which moved to shift/eject that cascade. And that is exactly what I just re-iterated to reasonwhy. So no backflip, sorry.

Speaking of backflips, it's you clowns that specialise in that sort of thing....did you see Foxx's latest a few pages back. It was still somewhat entertaining, but it's getting monotonous, heh? Don't you clowns do anything else?

You obviously didn't understand that explanation in my post to Foxx, so you ignorantly accuse one of 'backflip' where there hasn't been one. hehehe.

Perfect 'newton' stupidity and witlessness while wittily driveling all over these PhysorgForum floors. Do another backflip for us, clown! Cheers!

RC.
.
reasonwhy
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Feb 26 2006, 03:59 PM)

Hi reasonwhy!

Could it be the other way round, do you think? That is, could it be that the last-minute re-adjustment/failing movements/vibrations etc. of the floor/wall structures be CAUSING the piles of ash/embers etc to shift and partially cascade out the gaps/windows from the floor/ceiling between the levels affected? Cheers!

RC.
.

Of course it is possible. If you can give a good reason for what appears to be hot metal sparks near the ceiling of the building, I will reconsider my post. Your previous explanation only confirmed my suspicion you are not interested in the truth. The amount of anomalies makes even a conventional controlled demolition not seam possible.
RealityCheck
QUOTE (newton+Feb 27 2006, 12:17 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Feb 27 2006, 12:08 AM)
QUOTE (brian+Feb 26 2006, 09:09 PM)
Reality Check, your expertise lies here so can I ask, which of the following words would you make big?

"It is already possible to know, beyond a reasonable doubt, one very important thing: the destruction of the World Trade Centre was an inside job, orchestrated by terrorists within our own government."

I swither between "beyond a reasonable doubt" and "inside job" myself - maybe both or perhaps THEM ALL??


The Destruction of the World Trade Center: Why the Official Account Cannot Be True

by David Ray Griffin, Ph.D.

http://911review.com/articles/griffin/nyc1.html


Ahhh, brian. Well, we all now know where your expertise lay: Irrelevance. It's becoming an art form with you, isn't it? Will you compete for your country (poor nation) in the 'Incompetency Olympics'?

Still shilling for griffin and the terrorist money-making sites, I see. You have no conscience when it coms to making a buck, I see.

Still sad, incompetent brian.

RC.
.

geez, for a guy who's not that interested in american politics, you sure do seem to spend ALL OF YOUR TIME trying to defend the official FAIRY TALE(thank you, lon, for the signifigant REALITY(formerly known as physics) argument).


Well newton, you're not very good at driving the clown car, are you?

You obviously took a wrong turning. In case you hadn't noticed, this is a PHYSICS board and I was here long before your entertaining witless backflips ever showed up with the 'politics' and inanities.....but NO physics. Gee!

Can you look MORE the fool than you already do in that clown get-up and stumbling-tumbling, witless drivelling, repertoire? I hadn't thought you could, but you just proved me wrong...obviously, you CAN look even stupider than before. Amazing!

RC.
.
newton
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Feb 27 2006, 12:13 AM)
QUOTE (newton+Feb 26 2006, 10:16 PM)
QUOTE (brian+Feb 26 2006, 09:09 PM)
Reality Check, your expertise lies here so can I ask, which of the following words would you make big?

"It is already possible to know, beyond a reasonable doubt, one very important thing: the destruction of the World Trade Centre was an inside job, orchestrated by terrorists within our own government."

I swither between "beyond a reasonable doubt" and "inside job" myself - maybe both or perhaps THEM ALL??


The Destruction of the World Trade Center: Why the Official Account Cannot Be True

by David Ray Griffin, Ph.D.

http://911review.com/articles/griffin/nyc1.html

hey, i can help, brian. not only CIA DESK AGENT SHILLS from DIVISION FIVE know how to CAPITALISE.

"it is already possible to KNOW, beyond a reasonable doubt, one VERY important thing: the destruction of the world trade centre WAS an INSIDE JOB, orchestrated by terrorists WITHIN our OWN government."

i think, if RC was on our side, he would do it like this....

"It is already POSSIBLE to know, beyond a REASONABLE DOUBT, one very important thing: the destruction of the World Trade Centre was an inside JOB, orchestrated BY TERRORISTS within our own government."

....hence obfuscating the MEANING. he even OBFUSCATES his OWN posts, LOL!


Again does one useless idiot (newton) use for 'foundation arguments' the empty soundings of another useless idiot (brian).

Oh, the Irony...Oh, the Humanity!

RC.
.

"lewis carroll, a non-euclidian mathematical professor, was the first to denote the dilemma of a print-oriented world"

"image matching succeeds goal matching in a time when the targets change faster than the aims. at present, the day an engineer or a medical student graduates, he is obsolete"

"as the information enviroment becomes a corporate teaching machine, adopting a college is like buying the london bridge or a rembrant"

"all preliterate societies are communist, just as they are tribal. they have never experienced nationalism, since that is one of the visual effects of phonetic literacy."

"identity is making, not matching. struggle, not goal"

"world war 1 was a railway war of centralisation and encirclement. world war 2 was a radio war of decentralism. world war 3 is a guerrilla information war with no division between military and civilian participation."

Q: "papa, what is a foundation?"
A: "it is an ingenious legal device whereby very wealthy families contrive to eat their cake and have it."

(all quotes from "culture is our business", marshall mcluhan, copyright 1970 by mcluhan associates, limited)
RealityCheck
QUOTE (newton+Feb 27 2006, 12:36 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Feb 27 2006, 12:13 AM)
QUOTE (newton+Feb 26 2006, 10:16 PM)
QUOTE (brian+Feb 26 2006, 09:09 PM)
Reality Check, your expertise lies here so can I ask, which of the following words would you make big?

"It is already possible to know, beyond a reasonable doubt, one very important thing: the destruction of the World Trade Centre was an inside job, orchestrated by terrorists within our own government."

I swither between "beyond a reasonable doubt" and "inside job" myself - maybe both or perhaps THEM ALL??


The Destruction of the World Trade Center: Why the Official Account Cannot Be True

by David Ray Griffin, Ph.D.

http://911review.com/articles/griffin/nyc1.html

hey, i can help, brian. not only CIA DESK AGENT SHILLS from DIVISION FIVE know how to CAPITALISE.

"it is already possible to KNOW, beyond a reasonable doubt, one VERY important thing: the destruction of the world trade centre WAS an INSIDE JOB, orchestrated by terrorists WITHIN our OWN government."

i think, if RC was on our side, he would do it like this....

"It is already POSSIBLE to know, beyond a REASONABLE DOUBT, one very important thing: the destruction of the World Trade Centre was an inside JOB, orchestrated BY TERRORISTS within our own government."

....hence obfuscating the MEANING. he even OBFUSCATES his OWN posts, LOL!


Again does one useless idiot (newton) use for 'foundation arguments' the empty soundings of another useless idiot (brian).

Oh, the Irony...Oh, the Humanity!

RC.
.

"lewis carroll, a non-euclidian mathematical professor, was the first to denote the dilemma of a print-oriented world"

"image matching succeeds goal matching in a time when the targets change faster than the aims. at present, the day an engineer or a medical student graduates, he is obsolete"

"as the information enviroment becomes a corporate teaching machine, adopting a college is like buying the london bridge or a rembrant"

"all preliterate societies are communist, just as they are tribal. they have never experienced nationalism, since that is one of the visual effects of phonetic literacy."

"identity is making, not matching. struggle, not goal"

"world war 1 was a railway war of centralisation and encirclement. world war 2 was a radio war of decentralism. world war 3 is a guerrilla information war with no division between military and civilian participation."

Q: "papa, what is a foundation?"
A: "it is an ingenious legal device whereby very wealthy families contrive to eat their cake and have it."

(all quotes from "culture is our business", marshall mcluhan, copyright 1970 by mcluhan associates, limited)


Good old rev Dodgson! Alice in Wonderland, and all that. Is THAT where your physics/CT 'expertise' comes from? No WONDER (hehehe) your stuff sounds like it would fit right in with Alice's adventures! That explains a lot, mate.

Shouldn't you and the other clowns be doing the "Red Queen's Race" sketch about now. All here have paid good money, and we won't settle for anything less than the latest 'Foxx backflip' while running full pelt and still absolutely NOT getting any forarder! As always, it seems; especially with you witless drivelling monkeys on his back, heh? Cheers!


RC.
.
newton
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Feb 27 2006, 12:47 AM)
QUOTE (newton+Feb 27 2006, 12:36 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Feb 27 2006, 12:13 AM)
QUOTE (newton+Feb 26 2006, 10:16 PM)
QUOTE (brian+Feb 26 2006, 09:09 PM)
Reality Check, your expertise lies here so can I ask, which of the following words would you make big?

"It is already possible to know, beyond a reasonable doubt, one very important thing: the destruction of the World Trade Centre was an inside job, orchestrated by terrorists within our own government."

I swither between "beyond a reasonable doubt" and "inside job" myself - maybe both or perhaps THEM ALL??


The Destruction of the World Trade Center: Why the Official Account Cannot Be True

by David Ray Griffin, Ph.D.

http://911review.com/articles/griffin/nyc1.html

hey, i can help, brian. not only CIA DESK AGENT SHILLS from DIVISION FIVE know how to CAPITALISE.

"it is already possible to KNOW, beyond a reasonable doubt, one VERY important thing: the destruction of the world trade centre WAS an INSIDE JOB, orchestrated by terrorists WITHIN our OWN government."

i think, if RC was on our side, he would do it like this....

"It is already POSSIBLE to know, beyond a REASONABLE DOUBT, one very important thing: the destruction of the World Trade Centre was an inside JOB, orchestrated BY TERRORISTS within our own government."

....hence obfuscating the MEANING. he even OBFUSCATES his OWN posts, LOL!


Again does one useless idiot (newton) use for 'foundation arguments' the empty soundings of another useless idiot (brian).

Oh, the Irony...Oh, the Humanity!

RC.
.

"lewis carroll, a non-euclidian mathematical professor, was the first to denote the dilemma of a print-oriented world"

"image matching succeeds goal matching in a time when the targets change faster than the aims. at present, the day an engineer or a medical student graduates, he is obsolete"

"as the information enviroment becomes a corporate teaching machine, adopting a college is like buying the london bridge or a rembrant"

"all preliterate societies are communist, just as they are tribal. they have never experienced nationalism, since that is one of the visual effects of phonetic literacy."

"identity is making, not matching. struggle, not goal"

"world war 1 was a railway war of centralisation and encirclement. world war 2 was a radio war of decentralism. world war 3 is a guerrilla information war with no division between military and civilian participation."

Q: "papa, what is a foundation?"
A: "it is an ingenious legal device whereby very wealthy families contrive to eat their cake and have it."

(all quotes from "culture is our business", marshall mcluhan, copyright 1970 by mcluhan associates, limited)


Good old rev Dodgson! Alice in Wonderland, and all that. Is THAT where your physics/CT 'expertise' comes from? No WONDER (hehehe) your stuff sounds like it would fit right in with Alice's adventures! That explains a lot, mate.

Shouldn't you and the other clowns be doing the "Red Queen's Race" sketch about now. All here have paid good money, and we won't settle for anything less than the latest 'Foxx backflip' while running full pelt while absolutely NOT getting any forarder! As always, it seems; especially with you witless drivelling monkeys on his back, heh? Cheers!


RC.
.

well, scientist, it seems you're just plain out of your league, with your thick head shoved so far down the microscope, you failed to notice that the long dark night has turned into daybreak.

cheers!
shagster
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b108/jan...1/WTC-A1-75.jpg

There's a logical problem with the graph above. It only shows the fall times for a particular floor as if it had fallen freely to the ground with no interactions with other floors. If you could drop all 100 above-ground floors of a tower at the right starting times, theoretically they would all land at the same time. In reality, that doesn't occur since the floors would all get in the way of each other as they neared ground level and most would hit the ground after 9.22 seconds (not to mention the effect of all the columns holding floors together).

Blowing up a floor every ten floors in sequence wouldn't cause them all the land in exactly 9.22 seconds either. There are still 10 floors that have to impact one another during the fall and that takes a little more time to occur than if all ten floors had fallen freely with no interaction.

The other problem with that graph is that taking out a floor ten stories below just as the collapse front reaches that point is superfluous. The energy of gravity of the collapsing front is already enough to destroy that floor and the rest below. Adding explosions every ten floors wouldn't reduce the free-fall time. All of the intervening ten-floor sections would still have to be destoyed by gravity which takes a little more time.

In any event, the collapse of the towers happened floor by floor from top to bottom sequentially as evidenced in all the video. If the observed squibs (jets) had taken out floors below the collapse front, then additional collapse fronts would have been seen to start at levels below the initial collapse front. Nothing like that was observed.

RealityCheck
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Feb 27 2006, 12:31 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Feb 26 2006, 03:59 PM)

Hi reasonwhy!

Could it be the other way round, do you think? That is, could it be that the last-minute re-adjustment/failing movements/vibrations etc. of the floor/wall structures be CAUSING the piles of ash/embers etc to shift and partially cascade out the gaps/windows from the floor/ceiling between the levels affected? Cheers!

RC.
.

Of course it is possible. If you can give a good reason for what appears to be hot metal sparks near the exterior ceiling of the building, I will reconsider my post. Your previous explanation only confirmed my suspicion you are not interested in the truth. The amount of anomalies makes even a conventional controlled demolition not seam possible.


Hi reasonwhy! Two things, mate.....

First, the operative word (bolded) in your above post is "appears". Meaning that glowing embers/calcined concrete particulates and burning/molten plastic/aluminium etc will look exactly like a spray of red hot 'sparks' (ever see what falls about or 'flies' off a bonfire which 'collapses'?...it's a 'shower of sparks, isn't it?).

Second, When you consider the POWERFUL and relentless distortion, 'grinding' and snapping of all sorts of material, including steel columns and other metals, that would have preceded final failure and local collapse processes, its no wonder that probably some of those hot embers/concrete dust etc would have included the 'grinding' products from that last minute concentration of forces between metal and metal, metal and concrete etc...all of which, as can be seen by the fires, would be 'glowing' and at least red hot as the various particulates were produced/ejected and joined with the embers/concrete/metal 'cascade of sparks' you see there. Obviously, there was a lot happening and a lot of material being burnt/produced. Can you see where such an 'everyday' explanation would be inconsistent with what a fireman can see practically every day of the week?

Cheers, mate!

RC.
.
RealityCheck
QUOTE (newton+Feb 27 2006, 12:49 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Feb 27 2006, 12:47 AM)
QUOTE (newton+Feb 27 2006, 12:36 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Feb 27 2006, 12:13 AM)
QUOTE (newton+Feb 26 2006, 10:16 PM)
QUOTE (brian+Feb 26 2006, 09:09 PM)
Reality Check, your expertise lies here so can I ask, which of the following words would you make big?

"It is already possible to know, beyond a reasonable doubt, one very important thing: the destruction of the World Trade Centre was an inside job, orchestrated by terrorists within our own government."

I swither between "beyond a reasonable doubt" and "inside job" myself - maybe both or perhaps THEM ALL??


The Destruction of the World Trade Center: Why the Official Account Cannot Be True

by David Ray Griffin, Ph.D.

http://911review.com/articles/griffin/nyc1.html

hey, i can help, brian. not only CIA DESK AGENT SHILLS from DIVISION FIVE know how to CAPITALISE.

"it is already possible to KNOW, beyond a reasonable doubt, one VERY important thing: the destruction of the world trade centre WAS an INSIDE JOB, orchestrated by terrorists WITHIN our OWN government."

i think, if RC was on our side, he would do it like this....

"It is already POSSIBLE to know, beyond a REASONABLE DOUBT, one very important thing: the destruction of the World Trade Centre was an inside JOB, orchestrated BY TERRORISTS within our own government."

....hence obfuscating the MEANING. he even OBFUSCATES his OWN posts, LOL!


Again does one useless idiot (newton) use for 'foundation arguments' the empty soundings of another useless idiot (brian).

Oh, the Irony...Oh, the Humanity!

RC.
.

"lewis carroll, a non-euclidian mathematical professor, was the first to denote the dilemma of a print-oriented world"

"image matching succeeds goal matching in a time when the targets change faster than the aims. at present, the day an engineer or a medical student graduates, he is obsolete"

"as the information enviroment becomes a corporate teaching machine, adopting a college is like buying the london bridge or a rembrant"

"all preliterate societies are communist, just as they are tribal. they have never experienced nationalism, since that is one of the visual effects of phonetic literacy."

"identity is making, not matching. struggle, not goal"

"world war 1 was a railway war of centralisation and encirclement. world war 2 was a radio war of decentralism. world war 3 is a guerrilla information war with no division between military and civilian participation."

Q: "papa, what is a foundation?"
A: "it is an ingenious legal device whereby very wealthy families contrive to eat their cake and have it."

(all quotes from "culture is our business", marshall mcluhan, copyright 1970 by mcluhan associates, limited)


Good old rev Dodgson! Alice in Wonderland, and all that. Is THAT where your physics/CT 'expertise' comes from? No WONDER (hehehe) your stuff sounds like it would fit right in with Alice's adventures! That explains a lot, mate.

Shouldn't you and the other clowns be doing the "Red Queen's Race" sketch about now. All here have paid good money, and we won't settle for anything less than the latest 'Foxx backflip' while running full pelt while absolutely NOT getting any forarder! As always, it seems; especially with you witless drivelling monkeys on his back, heh? Cheers!


RC.
.

well, scientist, it seems you're just plain out of your league, with your thick head shoved so far down the microscope, you failed to notice that the long dark night has turned into daybreak.

cheers!


What planet are you on, newton? Or should that be what 'acid' are you on? Pay a bit more and get the 'unadulterated' stuff, mate...that way you can touch base with the Earth once in a while instead of floating around in an 'acid' halu where you think you're the 'Mad Hatter' entertaining Alice (is Foxx still running the Red Queen's Race, netwon?).

The only thing that's breaking out your way is your wit...whatever you had of it to begin with. Mate, seriously, take time out and get 'the cure'...the stuff isn't as addictive as they make out....especially if you have even an ounce of character. Try going 'cold turkey'.

RC..
.
Foxx
Notice the color of the molten 'flowing embers'...this tells us a lot about what could be melting in the video...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2...raplanet+9%2F11

It is quite apparent that the color of this burning/melting material is a reddish-orange leaning towards yellow to white in appearance. The color is distinctly more yellow that the flames from burning office furnishings which can be seen at the corner of the building. This gives us a clue to its composition.

Aluminum melts at ~ 660 deg C ( 1220 F). It never reaches the color shown in the video before melting. Here is a chart which gives temperature color indicators for heat affected metals. It is quite clear from this chart that what we are seeing as molten material is clearly NOT aluminum.

user posted image

So, (once again) it is clearly shown that you are not being 'scientific' at all in your above statements.

Further, it is also clear from the video around the 01:00 minute mark that the drips falling from the melting area are white hot... which gives an indication from the chart above that the temperature of these drips was in the range of 1000 - 1200 C ... far beyond the temperatures at which aluminum or plastics melt at. This is all simple scientific deduction & logic --- something that you exhibit in your writings that you are sadly lacking.

User posted image


Come to think of it the FLOWING EMBERS (as rc calls the melting process) looks very much like what is seen as this worker cuts up wtc debris...

Occams Razor anyone?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5...984526&q=9%2F11

User posted image

Yep, seems to be about the right colours...

User posted image

Gee, I guess those danged 'terrorists' brought oxy-acetylene equipment with them on the planes, and after the crash got out, split-up and got busy cutting up the supports of the building?

On another note...

I wonder if any of the CTers would like to explain how a gravity-driven collapse --- flips cars on the street upside down?

User posted image

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6...=9%2F11+footage


Observant
QUOTE (shagster+Feb 27 2006, 12:25 AM)
The piston effect will happen in the collapse of WTC7 also. WTC7 collapsed from bottom to top for the most part. There will be a pressure buildup in the floors that haven't yet been destroyed as the collapse occurs. It's like a piston effectively moving from bottom to top. It may be even more pronounced in a bottom-to-top collapse since threre is solid ground at the bottom acting as the piston as opposed to a layer of debris falling from top to bottom as in WTC1 and WTC2.

I'd assume most of the windows of WTC7 were sealed as they were in WTC1 and WTC2. A buildup of pressure and jets out broken windows is not unusual.

The falling debris layer in WTC1 and WTC2 wasn't like solid like the ground as in WTC7 but there was enough material moving downward to create a piston effect. The way the dust spread outward at ground level at high speed at the end of the collapse of WTC1 and WTC2 is a glaring example of the piston effect, not to mention some of the jets that were seen spraying out windows during the collapse.

It would be superfluous to blow up floors much higher than ground level in WTC7 anyway. The collapse started near ground level due to structural damage from the fall of WTC1 and fires that burned most of the day. Gravity did the work of the collapse. Demolition packs at higher levels would serve no purpose in a controlled demolition of WTC7.

There was an imminence hole in the top of WTC 7 which must have went almost to the bottom. Why? Because the penthouse fell rather fast. As if a lower support failed in that section of the building. Remember the penthouse collapsed seconds before the global collapse. This would explain how seconds later the rest of the building fell as loads shifted to other weakened supports.
brian
From Reality Check -

" Occam's Razor DEMANDS that one FIRST considers the OBVIOUS MIX of materials and their respective 'spectrum' output upon high-heating, before going into fantasyland for the 'exotic'....that is, you WOULD, unless you are a self-professed NON-scientist, UFO/CTer-cum-paranoid political/religious/mercenary type of observer."



3 buildings collapse AS IF by controlled demolition.

The same three buildings have beneath them evidence of extreme temperatures pointing to explosives.

People injured by, eyewitnesses and video testimony of, explosions.

"A half baked farce" explanation for WTC 1&2 and no explanation at all for 7

And this clown has the gall to flourish Occams Razor.
newton
QUOTE (brian+Feb 27 2006, 01:49 AM)
From Reality Check -

" Occam's Razor DEMANDS that one FIRST considers the OBVIOUS MIX of materials and their respective 'spectrum' output upon high-heating, before going into fantasyland for the 'exotic'....that is, you WOULD, unless you are a self-professed NON-scientist, UFO/CTer-cum-paranoid political/religious/mercenary type of observer."



3 buildings collapse AS IF by controlled demolition.

The same three buildings have beneath them evidence of extreme temperatures pointing to explosives.

People injured by, eyewitnesses and video testimony of, explosions.

"A half baked farce" explanation for WTC 1&2 and no explanation at all for 7

And this clown has the gall to flourish Occams Razor.

thanks, brian. i, for one, appreciate the time and effort it takes to be concise.

thank you for the excellent occam's shave. (and, yes, RC, i know occam's razor very well, as brian also obviously does. the difference between you ands me is i don't have tiny bits of VERY BLOODY toilet paper stuck to my face)
RealityCheck
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 27 2006, 01:21 AM)
Notice the color of the molten 'flowing embers'...this tells us a lot about what could be melting in the video...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2...raplanet+9%2F11

It is quite apparent that the color of this burning/melting material is a reddish-orange leaning towards yellow to white in appearance. The color is distinctly more yellow that the flames from burning office furnishings which can be seen at the corner of the building. This gives us a clue to its composition.

Aluminum melts at ~ 660 deg C ( 1220 F). It never reaches the color shown in the video before melting. Here is a chart which gives temperature color indicators for heat affected metals. It is quite clear from this chart that what we are seeing as molten material is clearly NOT aluminum.

user posted image

So, (once again) it is clearly shown that you are not being 'scientific' at all in your above statements.

Further, it is also clear from the video around the 01:00 minute mark that the drips falling from the melting area are white hot... which gives an indication from the chart above that the temperature of these drips was in the range of 1000 - 1200 C ... far beyond the temperatures at which aluminum or plastics melt at. This is all simple scientific deduction & logic --- something that you exhibit in your writings that you are sadly lacking.

User posted image


Come to think of it the FLOWING EMBERS (as rc calls the melting process) looks very much like what is seen as this worker cuts up wtc debris...

Occams Razor anyone?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5...984526&q=9%2F11

User posted image

Yep, seems to be about the right colours...

User posted image

Gee, I guess those danged 'terrorists' brought oxy-acetylene equipment with them on the planes, and after the crash got out, split-up and got busy cutting up the supports of the building?

On another note...

I wonder if any of the CTers would like to explain how a gravity-driven collapse --- flips cars on the street upside down?

User posted image

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6...=9%2F11+footage


Are you that deperate, Foxx? What does aluminium metal DO when it is melted and 'sprayed' out along with other burning embers/'calcined' concrete particles etc...why, aluminium burns BRIGHLY with a white light! Wow!

And didn't you read where I also said that Cacium compounds glow WHITE as well?

Obviously, ALL that material mix is being pushed and/or forcefully air-pressure 'blown' to higher temps and forced outwards, probably by forced air currents caused by materials/slab-sections from failed internal walls and floor/ceiling (same thing between two floors, remember?).

Any SUSTAINED outrush of air from the now-collapsing INTERIOR, especially those sections of floor/ceilings (same things between two floors, remember?) that were MORE fire/impact/distortion damaged, and so would reasonably be expected to have failed 'piecemeal' FIRST, before the full-across-levels local collapse became evident from outside.

Like the so-called 'squib' outbursts, these 'cascade' outbursts are obviously being driven/enlarged as the 'cascade' grows...indicating that some very 'internally localised' part-collapse pressure in that area of the floor/ceiling was also contributing to the increasing 'spray' effect as well. Cheers!

PS: Also see my most recent post to reasonwhy above, and you will see that the operative phrase in YOUR post is also similar to his word for the same observation. Namely, his was "appears" where you used "looks very much like". So it seems (there's another 'iffy' word, heh?) that you have learned NOTHING from you CTers' debacle with the firemen MISquotes where they heard what "sounded like explosions" when they were describing the 'progressive booms' of the floors pancaking. Are "seems", "appears", "looks like" and "sounds like" your whole criteria for what is observed in all these cases? Don't you apply logic, experience, common sense and Occam's Razor at all? Ever? Never?

Cheers Foxx.

RC.
.
Commen sense
QUOTE (brian+Feb 27 2006, 01:49 AM)
From Reality Check -

" Occam's Razor DEMANDS that one FIRST considers the OBVIOUS MIX of materials and their respective 'spectrum' output upon high-heating, before going into fantasyland for the 'exotic'....that is, you WOULD, unless you are a self-professed NON-scientist, UFO/CTer-cum-paranoid political/religious/mercenary type of observer."



3 buildings collapse AS IF by controlled demolition.

The same three buildings have beneath them evidence of extreme temperatures pointing to explosives.

People injured by, eyewitnesses and video testimony of,  explosions.

"A half baked farce" explanation for WTC 1&2 and no explanation at all for 7

And this clown has the gall to flourish Occams Razor.

There you go lying again Brain. Is that what they teach in church these days?

The fireman said they HEARD explosions. That is easily explained by the fireman themselves...

QUOTE
“I just remember there was just an explosion. It seemed like on television [when] they blow up these buildings. It seemed like it was going all the way around like a belt, all these explosions.”--Firefighter Richard Banaciski


http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyreg...ski_Richard.txt

What do you expect the floors to sound like as they drop, one next to the other? If it didn't SEEM like explosions I would worry we weren't on earth.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
“I just remember there was just an explosion. It seemed like on television [when] they blow up these buildings. It seemed like it was going all the way around like a belt, all these explosions.”--Firefighter Richard Banaciski


http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyreg...ski_Richard.txt

What do you expect the floors to sound like as they drop, one next to the other? If it didn't SEEM like explosions I would worry we weren't on earth.

“I saw a flash flash flash [at] the lower level of the building. You know like when they demolish a building?”--Assistant Fire Commissioner Stephen Gregory


This was one of those quotes taken out of context I told you about. Now the WHOLE QUOTE without the taking out of context part...

I know I was with an officer from Ladder 146, a Lieutenant Evangelista, who ultimately called me up a couple of days later just to find out how I was. We both for whatever reason -- again, I don't know how valid this is with everything that was going on at that particular point in time, but for some reason I thought that when I looked in the direction of the Trade Center before it came down, before No. 2 came down, that I saw low-leve] flashes. In my conversation with Lieutenant Evangelista, never mentioning this to him, he questioned me and asked me if I saw low-level flashes in front of the building, and I agreed with him because I thought -- at that time I didn't know what it was. I mean, it could have been as a result of the building collapsing, things exploding, but I saw a flash flash flash and then it looked like the building came down.

Q.: Was that on the lower level of the building or up where the fire was?

A: No, the lower level of the building. You know like when they demolish a building, how when they blow up a building, when it falls down? That's what I thought I saw. And I didn't broach the topic to him, but he asked me. He said I don't know if I'm crazy, but I just wanted to ask you because you were standing right next to me. He said did you see anything by the building? And I said what do you mean by see anything? He said did yc.u see any flashes? I said, yes, well, I thought it was just me. He said no, I saw them, too.

I don't know if that means anything. I mean, I equate it to the building cowing down and pushing things down, it could have been electrical explosions, it could have been whatever
.

http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyreg...ory_Stephen.txt

Let me guess why they left that important part out..

QUOTE
“[I]t was [like a] professional demolition where they set the charges on certain floors and then you hear 'Pop, pop, pop, pop, pop'."--Paramedic Daniel Rivera


SO WE WERE PRETTY MUCH-MOST OF THE WORKERS WERE INSIDE THIS BUILDING. I LIKE SAID, I DONT KNOW IF ITS FIVE WORLD TRADE CENTER OR FOUR WORLD TRADE CENTER. MOST OF THEM WERE IN THE BUILDING BECAUSE THE CHIEF OR THE CAPTAIN SAID IF YOU WANT YOU CAN STAY INSIDE THAT BUILDING. BUT I DIDNT FEEL SAFE BECAUSE I KNEW IT WAS TERRORIST ATTACK SO I WAS SCARED. EVERY TIME YOU HEAR PLANE EVERYONE WOULD RUN. SO I PRETTY MUCH STOOD AROUND HERE SOMEWHERE. I WOULD SEE TRIAGE, BUT I WAS PRETTY MUCH IN BETWEEN THE TWO BUILDINGS.

THEN THAT'S WHEN-I KEPT ON WALKING CLOSE TO THE SOUTH TOWER, AND THAT'S WHEN THAT BUILDING COLLAPSED.

Q: HOW DID YOU KNOWTHAT IT WAS COMING DOWN?

A: THAT NOISE .IT WAS NOISE.

Q: WHAT DID YOU HEAR? WHAT DID YOU SEE?

A: IT WAS A FRIGGING NOISE. AT FIRST I THOUGHT IT WAS-DO YOU EVER SEE PROFESSIONAL DEMOLITION WHERE THEY SET THE CHARGES ON CERTAIN FLOORS AND THEN YOU HEAR "POP, POP, POP, POP, POP"? THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT-BECAUSE I THOUGHT IT WAS THAT WHEN I HEARD THAT FRIGGING NOISE, THAT'S WHEN SAW THE BUILDING COMING DOWN.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110035.PDF

First notice he and everyone else was scared of TERRORISTS. What do TERRORIST DO? They BLOW SHIAT UP. So it's not unreasonable for someone who is thinking TERRORIST to hear the sound of huge concrete floors falling one on top of the other to think "BOMB" first. As I said, No one has ever seen an airplane hit buildings constructed like this and the collapse if this odd combination.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
“[I]t was [like a] professional demolition where they set the charges on certain floors and then you hear 'Pop, pop, pop, pop, pop'."--Paramedic Daniel Rivera


SO WE WERE PRETTY MUCH-MOST OF THE WORKERS WERE INSIDE THIS BUILDING. I LIKE SAID, I DONT KNOW IF ITS FIVE WORLD TRADE CENTER OR FOUR WORLD TRADE CENTER. MOST OF THEM WERE IN THE BUILDING BECAUSE THE CHIEF OR THE CAPTAIN SAID IF YOU WANT YOU CAN STAY INSIDE THAT BUILDING. BUT I DIDNT FEEL SAFE BECAUSE I KNEW IT WAS TERRORIST ATTACK SO I WAS SCARED. EVERY TIME YOU HEAR PLANE EVERYONE WOULD RUN. SO I PRETTY MUCH STOOD AROUND HERE SOMEWHERE. I WOULD SEE TRIAGE, BUT I WAS PRETTY MUCH IN BETWEEN THE TWO BUILDINGS.

THEN THAT'S WHEN-I KEPT ON WALKING CLOSE TO THE SOUTH TOWER, AND THAT'S WHEN THAT BUILDING COLLAPSED.

Q: HOW DID YOU KNOWTHAT IT WAS COMING DOWN?

A: THAT NOISE .IT WAS NOISE.

Q: WHAT DID YOU HEAR? WHAT DID YOU SEE?

A: IT WAS A FRIGGING NOISE. AT FIRST I THOUGHT IT WAS-DO YOU EVER SEE PROFESSIONAL DEMOLITION WHERE THEY SET THE CHARGES ON CERTAIN FLOORS AND THEN YOU HEAR "POP, POP, POP, POP, POP"? THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT-BECAUSE I THOUGHT IT WAS THAT WHEN I HEARD THAT FRIGGING NOISE, THAT'S WHEN SAW THE BUILDING COMING DOWN.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110035.PDF

First notice he and everyone else was scared of TERRORISTS. What do TERRORIST DO? They BLOW SHIAT UP. So it's not unreasonable for someone who is thinking TERRORIST to hear the sound of huge concrete floors falling one on top of the other to think "BOMB" first. As I said, No one has ever seen an airplane hit buildings constructed like this and the collapse if this odd combination.

“There was what appeared to be at first an explosion. It appeared at the very top, simultaneously from all four sides, materials shot out horizontally. And then there seemed to be a momentary delay before you could see the beginning of the collapse." --Chief Frank Cruthers


there was what appeared to be at first an explosion. it appeared at the very top, simultaneously from all four sides

http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyreg...IC/Cruthers.txt

And why wouldn't floors falling around the building NOT APPEAR to be an EXPLOSION... blink.gif

QUOTE
"I started walking back up towards Vesey Street. I heard three explosions, and then we heard like groaning and grinding, and tower two started to come down.” --Paramedic Kevin Darnowski


Again, just more sounds like explosions as floors ram into each other. Note he doesn't say he SAW three explosions.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110202.PDF

And here is the outright LIE...

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
"I started walking back up towards Vesey Street. I heard three explosions, and then we heard like groaning and grinding, and tower two started to come down.” --Paramedic Kevin Darnowski


Again, just more sounds like explosions as floors ram into each other. Note he doesn't say he SAW three explosions.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110202.PDF

And here is the outright LIE...

“ we heard explosions coming from building two, the south tower. It seemed like it took forever, but there were about ten explosions. . . . We then realized the building started to come down.” -- Firefighter Craig Carlsen


Note where these lairs but the "...."

Now for the REAL quote...

I guess about three minutes later you just heard explosions coming from building two, the south tower. It seemed like it took forever, but there were about ten explosions. At the time I didn't realize what it was. We realized later after talking and finding out that it was the floors collapsing to where the plane had hit.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110505.PDF

With that alone I should rest my case. wink.gif These CT sites are dishonest.

Here is the other lie, they split up these quote to make it seem like there are more than hey really are. You have paramedic Daniel Rivera and Stephen Gregory split up as if there are different accounts. They are the same account. What other reason would they have for splitting them up???

QUOTE
“Then this flash just kept popping all the way around the building and that building had started to explode. The popping sound, and with each popping sound it was initially an orange and then a red flash came out of the building and then it would just go all around the building on both sides as far as I could see. These popping sounds and the explosions were getting bigger, going both up and down and then all around the building." -- Captain Karin Deshore



MY BACK WAS TOWARDS THE BUILDING, TRYING TO PUSH EVERYBODY UP.
GRASSY HILL WAS THERE AND UP UNDERNEATH THAT OVERPASS, WHEN SOMEBODY JUST SIMPLY SHOUTED AND I HAVE NO IDEA WHO IT WAS, "ITS BLOWING".

I HAD NO CLUE WHAT WAS GOING ON. I NEVER TURNED AROUND BECAUSE A SOUND CAME FROM SOMEWHERE THAT NEVER HEARD BEFORE. SOME PEOPLE COMPARED IT WITH AN AIRPLANE. IT WAS THE WORST SOUND OF ROLLING SOUND, NOT A THUNDER CANT EXPLAIN IT, WHAT IT WAS. ALL I
KNOW IS -- AND FORCE STARTED TO COME HIT ME IN MY BACK. I CANT EXPLAIN IT. YOU HAD TO BE THERE. ALL I KNOW IS -- HAD TO RUN BECAUSE I THOUGHT THERE WAS AN EXPLOSION.

...I WAS UNAWARE WHAT WAS HAPPENING. I THOUGHT
IT WAS JUST MAJOR EXPLOSION I DIDNT KNOW THE BUILDING WAS COLLAPSING


SOMEWHERE AROUND THE MIDDLE OF THE WORLD TRADE CENTER, THERE WAS THIS ORANGE AND RED FLASH COMING OUT. INITIALLY IT WAS JUST ONE FLASH. THEN THIS FLASH JUST KEPT POPPING ALL THE WAY AROUND THE BUILDING AND THAT BUILDING HAD STARTED TO EXPLODE. THE POPPING SOUND, AND WITH EACH POPPING SOUND IT WAS INITIALLY AN ORANGE AND THEN RED FLASH CAME OUT OF THE BUILDING AND THEN IT WOULD JUST GO ALL AROUND THE BUILDING ON BOTH SIDES AS FAR AS COULD SEE. THESE POPPING SOUNDS AND THE EXPLOSIONS WERE GETTING BIGGER GOING BOTH UP AND DOWN AND THEN ALL AROUND THE BUILDING.

It's time to see a transformer explosion.

http://www.stupidcollege.com/items/Electri...ormer-Explosion

All these buildings had transformers and transformer vaults.

SO HERE THESE EXPLOSIONS ARE GETTING BIGGER AND LOUDER AND BIGGER AND LOUDER AND I TOLD EVERYBODY IF THIS BUILDING TOTALLY EXPLODES, STILL UNAWARE THAT THE OTHER BUILDING HAD COLLAPSED, IM GOING IN THE WATER.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110192.PDF

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
“Then this flash just kept popping all the way around the building and that building had started to explode. The popping sound, and with each popping sound it was initially an orange and then a red flash came out of the building and then it would just go all around the building on both sides as far as I could see. These popping sounds and the explosions were getting bigger, going both up and down and then all around the building." -- Captain Karin Deshore



MY BACK WAS TOWARDS THE BUILDING, TRYING TO PUSH EVERYBODY UP.
GRASSY HILL WAS THERE AND UP UNDERNEATH THAT OVERPASS, WHEN SOMEBODY JUST SIMPLY SHOUTED AND I HAVE NO IDEA WHO IT WAS, "ITS BLOWING".

I HAD NO CLUE WHAT WAS GOING ON. I NEVER TURNED AROUND BECAUSE A SOUND CAME FROM SOMEWHERE THAT NEVER HEARD BEFORE. SOME PEOPLE COMPARED IT WITH AN AIRPLANE. IT WAS THE WORST SOUND OF ROLLING SOUND, NOT A THUNDER CANT EXPLAIN IT, WHAT IT WAS. ALL I
KNOW IS -- AND FORCE STARTED TO COME HIT ME IN MY BACK. I CANT EXPLAIN IT. YOU HAD TO BE THERE. ALL I KNOW IS -- HAD TO RUN BECAUSE I THOUGHT THERE WAS AN EXPLOSION.

...I WAS UNAWARE WHAT WAS HAPPENING. I THOUGHT
IT WAS JUST MAJOR EXPLOSION I DIDNT KNOW THE BUILDING WAS COLLAPSING


SOMEWHERE AROUND THE MIDDLE OF THE WORLD TRADE CENTER, THERE WAS THIS ORANGE AND RED FLASH COMING OUT. INITIALLY IT WAS JUST ONE FLASH. THEN THIS FLASH JUST KEPT POPPING ALL THE WAY AROUND THE BUILDING AND THAT BUILDING HAD STARTED TO EXPLODE. THE POPPING SOUND, AND WITH EACH POPPING SOUND IT WAS INITIALLY AN ORANGE AND THEN RED FLASH CAME OUT OF THE BUILDING AND THEN IT WOULD JUST GO ALL AROUND THE BUILDING ON BOTH SIDES AS FAR AS COULD SEE. THESE POPPING SOUNDS AND THE EXPLOSIONS WERE GETTING BIGGER GOING BOTH UP AND DOWN AND THEN ALL AROUND THE BUILDING.

It's time to see a transformer explosion.

http://www.stupidcollege.com/items/Electri...ormer-Explosion

All these buildings had transformers and transformer vaults.

SO HERE THESE EXPLOSIONS ARE GETTING BIGGER AND LOUDER AND BIGGER AND LOUDER AND I TOLD EVERYBODY IF THIS BUILDING TOTALLY EXPLODES, STILL UNAWARE THAT THE OTHER BUILDING HAD COLLAPSED, IM GOING IN THE WATER.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110192.PDF

“I took a quick glance at the building and while I didn't see it falling, I saw a large section of it blasting out, which led me to believe it was just an explosion.” -- Captain Jay Swithers


When I was giving her the oxygen, setting up the tank, you could hear a loud rumble. Somebody said run for your life. I turned to see who was yelling "run".
At that point I looked back and most of the people who were triaged in that area with the triage tags on them got up and ran. I took a quick glance at the building and while I didn't see it falling, I saw a large section of it blasting out, which led me to believe it was just an explosion. I thought it was a secondary device, but I knew that we had to go.

But one thing that did happen was an ambulance pulled up which was very clean. So I assumed that the vehicle had not been in the - what I thought was an explosion at the time, but was the first collapse.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110172.PDF

First he heard the rumble. Not the so called "Explosion" which he never saw. Then he thought he heard an explosion because he saw the debris falling away from the building. He had TERRORIST on his mind and jumped to the conclusion that it was a bomb. You don't have to be a psychologist here.

QUOTE
"there were definitely bombs in those buildings,” Isaac added that “many other firemen know there were bombs in the buildings, but they’re afraid for their jobs to admit it because the ‘higher-ups’ forbid discussion of this fact.” --Auxiliary Lieutenant Fireman Paul Isaac


This is pulled straight out of someones a$$. There is NO Paul Isaac on the record saying anything of the kind. Another CT deception.

I want to know why you continue to lie about this Brian... Aren't you ashamed?
newton
RC/CS is drunk. check out the typos. HAHA!
Commen sense
QUOTE (newton+Feb 27 2006, 02:03 AM)
RC/CS is drunk. check out the typos. HAHA!

I can correct my typos, you'll always be a moron.
newton
QUOTE (Commen sense+Feb 27 2006, 02:05 AM)
QUOTE (newton+Feb 27 2006, 02:03 AM)
RC/CS is drunk.  check out the typos.  HAHA!

I can correct my typos, you'll always be a moron.

thank you, schniebster for admitting that you are 'all of the above'.
one against the world, eh? strong EVIL character you've got there, buddy.
RealityCheck
QUOTE (brian+Feb 27 2006, 01:49 AM)
From Reality Check -

" Occam's Razor DEMANDS that one FIRST considers the OBVIOUS MIX of materials and their respective 'spectrum' output upon high-heating, before going into fantasyland for the 'exotic'....that is, you WOULD, unless you are a self-professed NON-scientist, UFO/CTer-cum-paranoid political/religious/mercenary type of observer."



3 buildings collapse AS IF by controlled demolition.

The same three buildings have beneath them evidence of extreme temperatures pointing to explosives.

People injured by, eyewitnesses and video testimony of,  explosions.

"A half baked farce" explanation for WTC 1&2 and no explanation at all for 7

And this clown has the gall to flourish Occams Razor.



QUOTE (newton+Feb 27 2006, 01:54 AM)
QUOTE (brian+Feb 27 2006, 01:49 AM)
From Reality Check -

" Occam's Razor DEMANDS that one FIRST considers the OBVIOUS MIX of materials and their respective 'spectrum' output upon high-heating, before going into fantasyland for the 'exotic'....that is, you WOULD, unless you are a self-professed NON-scientist, UFO/CTer-cum-paranoid political/religious/mercenary type of observer."



3 buildings collapse AS IF by controlled demolition.

The same three buildings have beneath them evidence of extreme temperatures pointing to explosives.

People injured by, eyewitnesses and video testimony of,  explosions.

"A half baked farce" explanation for WTC 1&2 and no explanation at all for 7

And this clown has the gall to flourish Occams Razor.

thanks, brian. i, for one, appreciate the time and effort it takes to be concise.

thank you for the excellent occam's shave. (and, yes, RC, i know occam's razor very well, as brian also obviously does. the difference between you ands me is i don't have tiny bits of VERY BLOODY toilet paper stuck to my face)


All that seems to have transpired in the above exchange is that Pigmy Idiot (newton) is yet again (will he never learn?) 'standing on the shoulders of Giant Idiot (brian).

Plenty of 'wind' from newton (must be awfully unpleasant for brian under him). No Physics. Typical. Incompetent, irrelevant and scammer/spammers. Nice.

RC.
.


Kerri
You remind me of my husband.

RealityCheck
QUOTE (newton+Feb 27 2006, 02:03 AM)
RC/CS is drunk.  check out the typos.  HAHA!


Can I quote you on that, newton/brian idiot tag-team?

RC.
.
RealityCheck
QUOTE (newton+Feb 27 2006, 02:06 AM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Feb 27 2006, 02:05 AM)
QUOTE (newton+Feb 27 2006, 02:03 AM)
RC/CS is drunk.  check out the typos.  HAHA!

I can correct my typos, you'll always be a moron.

thank you, schniebster for admitting that you are 'all of the above'.
one against the world, eh? strong EVIL character you've got there, buddy.


Oh mercy, Common Sense! That should be something to observe, newton trying to 'correct' himself thoroughly, hehehe!

And poor newton, still showing a woeful non-discriminatory approach to evidence. He's got to be one of the most un-scientific and idiotic arm-chair critics ever. What's the good of him? To anyone? At all? Poor sucker. No physics. No scientific method. No evidence. And still he witilly drivels as he pontificates on ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

RC.
.
newton
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Feb 27 2006, 02:08 AM)
QUOTE (brian+Feb 27 2006, 01:49 AM)
From Reality Check -

" Occam's Razor DEMANDS that one FIRST considers the OBVIOUS MIX of materials and their respective 'spectrum' output upon high-heating, before going into fantasyland for the 'exotic'....that is, you WOULD, unless you are a self-professed NON-scientist, UFO/CTer-cum-paranoid political/religious/mercenary type of observer."



3 buildings collapse AS IF by controlled demolition.

The same three buildings have beneath them evidence of extreme temperatures pointing to explosives.

People injured by, eyewitnesses and video testimony of,  explosions.

"A half baked farce" explanation for WTC 1&2 and no explanation at all for 7

And this clown has the gall to flourish Occams Razor.



QUOTE (newton+Feb 27 2006, 01:54 AM)
QUOTE (brian+Feb 27 2006, 01:49 AM)
From Reality Check -

" Occam's Razor DEMANDS that one FIRST considers the OBVIOUS MIX of materials and their respective 'spectrum' output upon high-heating, before going into fantasyland for the 'exotic'....that is, you WOULD, unless you are a self-professed NON-scientist, UFO/CTer-cum-paranoid political/religious/mercenary type of observer."



3 buildings collapse AS IF by controlled demolition.

The same three buildings have beneath them evidence of extreme temperatures pointing to explosives.

People injured by, eyewitnesses and video testimony of,  explosions.

"A half baked farce" explanation for WTC 1&2 and no explanation at all for 7

And this clown has the gall to flourish Occams Razor.

thanks, brian. i, for one, appreciate the time and effort it takes to be concise.

thank you for the excellent occam's shave. (and, yes, RC, i know occam's razor very well, as brian also obviously does. the difference between you ands me is i don't have tiny bits of VERY BLOODY toilet paper stuck to my face)


All that seems to have transpired in the above exchange is that Pigmy Idiot (newton) is yet again (will he never learn?) 'standing on the shoulders of Giant Idiot (brian).

Plenty of 'wind' from newton (must be awfully unpleasant for brian under him). No Physics. Typical. Incompetent, irrelevant and scammer/spammers. Nice.

RC.
.

i've given plenty good physics in this thread. and you have done headstands and backflips to obfuscate and bury my simple and true observations.
keep it up. you're doing a horrible job, evil shill. how's that fusion project coming? save the world, yet?

just to recap, as you seemingly have the memory of a sieve....
no deformation of debris pile indicates cooling
fall times indicate little resistance
extreme heat of debris pile exceeds expectation of a gravity driven collapse
massive volumes of super fine dust indicate forces at work beyond simple fracturing due to collapse.
the cap(s) visibly lose integrity BEFORE the lower intact parts of the tower, which in turn diffuses the amount of force they can apply on the lower portions.
the steel was not heated sufficiently to deform(you might want to reference the modelling of the CORE temperatures by NIST, if you want to find something else to obfuscate)
the actual physical evidence which indicates steel temperatures, indicates that the steel did not reach the temperatures necesarry for a collapse to take place.
there are high velocity ejections far below the collapse horizon.
the 'spire' disappears so quickly, it seems to evaporate, and perhaps it DID.
the box columns were welded all the way up, effectively turning them into thousand plus foot high single beams.
there is a percussive sound energy spike 17s.(if i remember correctly. maybe it was 12 or fourteen seconds) before the second tower to collapse collapses. the spike's energy is greater then that of the initiation of collapse.
the mechanical floors are a barrier to the alleged thermobaric magic jet fuel.
the orginally published collapse times were gleaned from seismic records, which showed 8 and ten second sigs. the siesmic records(ie. when energy is transferred to the ground by an impacting mass) do not match the collapse times.
tower seven fell with high symmetry at freefall speeds, despite alleged assymetrical damage. (p.s. don't stand near RC while he's chopping down a tree!)
i could go on and on, providing the TRUTH of the DEMOLITION, but i think i can rest on my laurels, now, for the most part, and let history 'mark my paper'.
it's just the sport of whacking around an evil mouse that i'm enjoying, now.

irrelevent? i hope you believe that.

Commen sense
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Feb 27 2006, 02:18 AM)
QUOTE (newton+Feb 27 2006, 02:06 AM)
QUOTE (Commen sense+Feb 27 2006, 02:05 AM)
QUOTE (newton+Feb 27 2006, 02:03 AM)
RC/CS is drunk.  check out the typos.  HAHA!

I can correct my typos, you'll always be a moron.

thank you, schniebster for admitting that you are 'all of the above'.
one against the world, eh? strong EVIL character you've got there, buddy.


Oh mercy, Common Sense! That should be something to observe, newton trying to 'correct' himself thoroughly, hehehe!

And poor newton, still showing a woeful non-discriminatory approach to evidence. He's got to be one of the most un-scientific and idiotic arm-chair critics ever. What's the good of him? To anyone? At all? Poor sucker. No physics. No scientific method. No evidence. And still he witilly drivels as he pontificates on ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

RC.
.

Yes, the clown car pulled up from conspiracy central and liberty forums and they all spilled out here. I should be paying for this much fun. Heh! laugh.gif We have some of these clowns running around on fire while others jump through hoops trying to get ONE person from this forum convinced of their lunacy. The back flipping clowns are the best don't you think? It's a regular three ring circus! Heh!
Commen sense
QUOTE (newton+Feb 27 2006, 02:34 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Feb 27 2006, 02:08 AM)
QUOTE (brian+Feb 27 2006, 01:49 AM)
From Reality Check -

" Occam's Razor DEMANDS that one FIRST considers the OBVIOUS MIX of materials and their respective 'spectrum' output upon high-heating, before going into fantasyland for the 'exotic'....that is, you WOULD, unless you are a self-professed NON-scientist, UFO/CTer-cum-paranoid political/religious/mercenary type of observer."



3 buildings collapse AS IF by controlled demolition.

The same three buildings have beneath them evidence of extreme temperatures pointing to explosives.

People injured by, eyewitnesses and video testimony of,  explosions.

"A half baked farce" explanation for WTC 1&2 and no explanation at all for 7

And this clown has the gall to flourish Occams Razor.



QUOTE (newton+Feb 27 2006, 01:54 AM)
QUOTE (brian+Feb 27 2006, 01:49 AM)
From Reality Check -

" Occam's Razor DEMANDS that one FIRST considers the OBVIOUS MIX of materials and their respective 'spectrum' output upon high-heating, before going into fantasyland for the 'exotic'....that is, you WOULD, unless you are a self-professed NON-scientist, UFO/CTer-cum-paranoid political/religious/mercenary type of observer."



3 buildings collapse AS IF by controlled demolition.

The same three buildings have beneath them evidence of extreme temperatures pointing to explosives.

People injured by, eyewitnesses and video testimony of,  explosions.

"A half baked farce" explanation for WTC 1&2 and no explanation at all for 7

And this clown has the gall to flourish Occams Razor.

thanks, brian. i, for one, appreciate the time and effort it takes to be concise.

thank you for the excellent occam's shave. (and, yes, RC, i know occam's razor very well, as brian also obviously does. the difference between you ands me is i don't have tiny bits of VERY BLOODY toilet paper stuck to my face)


All that seems to have transpired in the above exchange is that Pigmy Idiot (newton) is yet again (will he never learn?) 'standing on the shoulders of Giant Idiot (brian).

Plenty of 'wind' from newton (must be awfully unpleasant for brian under him). No Physics. Typical. Incompetent, irrelevant and scammer/spammers. Nice.

RC.
.

i've given plenty good physics in this thread. and you have done headstands and backflips to obfuscate and bury my simple and true observations.
keep it up. you're doing a horrible job, evil shill. how's that fusion project coming? save the world, yet?

just to recap, as you seemingly have the memory of a sieve....
no deformation of debris pile indicates cooling
fall times indicate little resistance
extreme heat of debris pile exceeds expectation of a gravity driven collapse
massive volumes of super fine dust indicate forces at work beyond simple fracturing due to collapse.
the cap(s) visibly lose integrity BEFORE the lower intact parts of the tower, which in turn diffuses the amount of force they can apply on the lower portions.
the steel was not heated sufficiently to deform(you might want to reference the modelling of the CORE temperatures by NIST, if you want to find something else to obfuscate)
the actual physical evidence which indicates steel temperatures, indicates that the steel did not reach the temperatures necesarry for a collapse to take place.
there are high velocity ejections far below the collapse horizon.
the 'spire' disappears so quickly, it seems to evaporate, and perhaps it DID.
the box columns were welded all the way up, effectively turning them into thousand plus foot high single beams.
there is a percussive sound energy spike 17s.(if i remember correctly. maybe it was 12 or fourteen seconds) before the second tower to collapse collapses. the spike's energy is greater then that of the initiation of collapse.
the mechanical floors are a barrier to the alleged thermobaric magic jet fuel.
the orginally published collapse times were gleaned from seismic records, which showed 8 and ten second sigs. the siesmic records(ie. when energy is transferred to the ground by an impacting mass) do not match the collapse times.
tower seven fell with high symmetry at freefall speeds, despite alleged assymetrical damage. (p.s. don't stand near RC while he's chopping down a tree!)
i could go on and on, providing the TRUTH of the DEMOLITION, but i think i can rest on my laurels, now, for the most part, and let history 'mark my paper'.
it's just the sport of whacking around an evil mouse that i'm enjoying, now.

irrelevent? i hope you believe that.

Is that from your peer reviewed paper? It's not? Oh, that's right, I forgot... You can't pass a peer reviewed paper on lies...
Foxx
QUOTE
by rc
YOU cannot match my experience in real science/problemsolving/troubleshooting in all areas of science/industry/commerce.


I haven't seen any evidence of these qualities in any of your posts so far. But, it seems from the above that you wish to avoid telling us which field of "science/problemsolving/troubleshooting in all areas of science/industry/commerce" you have actual qualifications in. Why does that not surprise me?

You are quite proficient at spreading manure though.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
by rc
YOU cannot match my experience in real science/problemsolving/troubleshooting in all areas of science/industry/commerce.


I haven't seen any evidence of these qualities in any of your posts so far. But, it seems from the above that you wish to avoid telling us which field of "science/problemsolving/troubleshooting in all areas of science/industry/commerce" you have actual qualifications in. Why does that not surprise me?

You are quite proficient at spreading manure though.

by rc
the 'ceiling' membrane/structure of one story is usually the 'floor' of the story immediately above.


Amazing scientific deduction... I never would have guessed.

QUOTE
Consider: are the floor perimeters there 'damaged' and disconnected/separated somewhat by FIRE/IMPACT from the perimeter walls?... there would be 'gaps' through which accumulated' embers / molten plastics / alumuminium would 'cascade' through that 'floor' edge and onto the story below.


I'm not sure of where that location is actually so I can't say whether there could be impact damage to the floor at that point. As for the fire damage... I don't think it would burn holes in concrete.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Consider: are the floor perimeters there 'damaged' and disconnected/separated somewhat by FIRE/IMPACT from the perimeter walls?... there would be 'gaps' through which accumulated' embers / molten plastics / alumuminium would 'cascade' through that 'floor' edge and onto the story below.


I'm not sure of where that location is actually so I can't say whether there could be impact damage to the floor at that point. As for the fire damage... I don't think it would burn holes in concrete.

Now, as to the 'colour spectrum' presented ... Tell me Foxx, are you old enough to remember those good old Calcium Carbide lamps used on coaches (today, you'd probably be more familiar with those nifty Camping Lanterns) which burn KEROSENE or sufficiently convenient, hot-burn fuels) to heat that Calcium Carbide (or other equivalently suitable) 're-radiator/mantle' material surrounding the flame; and how that Calcium Carbide GLOWED with a clean WHITE light?


So by Occams Razor you are suggesting that it was a camp lantern giving off those white colored drips of molten material.

QUOTE
Occam's Razor DEMANDS that one FIRST considers the OBVIOUS MIX of materials and their respective 'spectrum' output upon high-heating


First, I am not a believer that Occams Razor is a law, and don't put much stock in the premise myself. But let's look at the obvious (just to keep you happy) The obvious mix of materials were office furnishings - I know of no office materials which burn white hot. Do you?

We have already discounted aluminum, because it never gets to the white hot temperature spectrum before melting. Under normal conditions it does not burn, it just melts and at temperatures far below the white spectrum.

So, even if you wish to appeal to Occam, then the first choice doesn't seem to be aluminum or office furnishings.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Occam's Razor DEMANDS that one FIRST considers the OBVIOUS MIX of materials and their respective 'spectrum' output upon high-heating


First, I am not a believer that Occams Razor is a law, and don't put much stock in the premise myself. But let's look at the obvious (just to keep you happy) The obvious mix of materials were office furnishings - I know of no office materials which burn white hot. Do you?

We have already discounted aluminum, because it never gets to the white hot temperature spectrum before melting. Under normal conditions it does not burn, it just melts and at temperatures far below the white spectrum.

So, even if you wish to appeal to Occam, then the first choice doesn't seem to be aluminum or office furnishings.

I and others at PhysorgForums have presented reasonable Occam's Razor observations/hypotheses in reply which have YET to be seriously challenged


Someone please hand me the shovel... it is getting deep in here. Do you call Amazing Underground Bellows and Supersonic Jet-Fuel reasonable theories? I have yet to see any gravity-driven collapse supporter make a case for gravity-driven collapse. Your nonsensical and absurd theories have been consistently exposed with no subsequent defense from your ilk.

QUOTE
As everyone here can now see for themselves (especially of late), all at Physorg have used more than enough Basic Physics (both theoretical and practical/applied) to easily 'falsify' ALL the (knowing/unknowing) lies and ignorant misunderstandings, assertions and pseudo-science so far put by your 'side'.


Well apparently (according to a couple of polls run on this thread) you and your two supporters are consistently refuted. You use the term 'ALL' quite loosely. There are far more REAL posters who agree that the case has been made by fully sufficient evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt that YOUR gravity-driven drivel is pure horsepucky. I don't include Schneibys army of puppets as counting for more than one persons opinion.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
As everyone here can now see for themselves (especially of late), all at Physorg have used more than enough Basic Physics (both theoretical and practical/applied) to easily 'falsify' ALL the (knowing/unknowing) lies and ignorant misunderstandings, assertions and pseudo-science so far put by your 'side'.


Well apparently (according to a couple of polls run on this thread) you and your two supporters are consistently refuted. You use the term 'ALL' quite loosely. There are far more REAL posters who agree that the case has been made by fully sufficient evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt that YOUR gravity-driven drivel is pure horsepucky. I don't include Schneibys army of puppets as counting for more than one persons opinion.

put together a logically/scientifically coherent (and preferably, relevant) categorised presentation of whatever 'assertions' you have to make


Start at page 1 of this thread and any rational person will easily see the case for demolition is made on each page (except those pages filled with spam).

QUOTE
Still shilling for griffin and the terrorist money-making sites


I see shades of Schneiby here, and whoa!!! wait a minute... isn't that BUSH talking there...

"Conspiracy Theorists are no better than 'Terrorists'.

What hypocrisy. The biggest terrorist state in the world over the past 50 years is clearly the US of A...

http://www.lossless-audio.com/usa/index6.php

They harbour one of the biggest terrorists the western world has ever produced...

Luis Posada Carriles...

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB153/

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Still shilling for griffin and the terrorist money-making sites


I see shades of Schneiby here, and whoa!!! wait a minute... isn't that BUSH talking there...

"Conspiracy Theorists are no better than 'Terrorists'.

What hypocrisy. The biggest terrorist state in the world over the past 50 years is clearly the US of A...

http://www.lossless-audio.com/usa/index6.php

They harbour one of the biggest terrorists the western world has ever produced...

Luis Posada Carriles...

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB153/

have you ever heard of Occam's Razor?

This demands that one first considers the obvious explanation.


We have examined the official theory extensively and found it to be completely unsupportable except by ignoramuses or disinformationists.

QUOTE
glowing embers/calcined concrete particulates and burning/molten plastic/aluminium etc will look exactly like a spray of red hot 'sparks'


Just more ignorant drivel. none of these burn at the color range seen in the video. It looks exactly the same as the effect seen by a cutting torch...

User posted image

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5...984526&q=9%2F11

AND, this is the first I've ever heard about burning concrete... I guess the Madrid Windsor building should have collapsed exactly like WTC Towers, what with all that burning concrete sending sparks everywhere. Do you honestly believe your own drivel?

RealityCheck
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 27 2006, 03:01 AM)
QUOTE
by rc
YOU cannot match my experience in real science/problemsolving/troubleshooting in all areas of science/industry/commerce.


I haven't seen any evidence of these qualities in any of your posts so far. But, it seems from the above that you wish to avoid telling us which field of "science/problemsolving/troubleshooting in all areas of science/industry/commerce" you have actual qualifications in. Why does that not surprise me?

You are quite proficient at spreading manure though.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
by rc
YOU cannot match my experience in real science/problemsolving/troubleshooting in all areas of science/industry/commerce.


I haven't seen any evidence of these qualities in any of your posts so far. But, it seems from the above that you wish to avoid telling us which field of "science/problemsolving/troubleshooting in all areas of science/industry/commerce" you have actual qualifications in. Why does that not surprise me?

You are quite proficient at spreading manure though.

by rc
the 'ceiling' membrane/structure of one story is usually the 'floor' of the story immediately above.


Amazing scientific deduction... I never would have guessed.

QUOTE
Consider: are the floor perimeters there 'damaged' and disconnected/separated somewhat by FIRE/IMPACT from the perimeter walls?... there would be 'gaps' through which accumulated' embers / molten plastics / alumuminium would 'cascade' through that 'floor' edge and onto the story below.


I'm not sure of where that location is actually so I can't say whether there could be impact damage to the floor at that point. As for the fire damage... I don't think it would burn holes in concrete.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Consider: are the floor perimeters there 'damaged' and disconnected/separated somewhat by FIRE/IMPACT from the perimeter walls?... there would be 'gaps' through which accumulated' embers / molten plastics / alumuminium would 'cascade' through that 'floor' edge and onto the story below.


I'm not sure of where that location is actually so I can't say whether there could be impact damage to the floor at that point. As for the fire damage... I don't think it would burn holes in concrete.

Now, as to the 'colour spectrum' presented ... Tell me Foxx, are you old enough to remember those good old Calcium Carbide lamps used on coaches (today, you'd probably be more familiar with those nifty Camping Lanterns) which burn KEROSENE or sufficiently convenient, hot-burn fuels) to heat that Calcium Carbide (or other equivalently suitable) 're-radiator/mantle' material surrounding the flame; and how that Calcium Carbide GLOWED with a clean WHITE light?


So by Occams Razor you are suggesting that it was a camp lantern giving off those white colored drips of molten material.

QUOTE
Occam's Razor DEMANDS that one FIRST considers the OBVIOUS MIX of materials and their respective 'spectrum' output upon high-heating


First, I am not a believer that Occams Razor is a law, and don't put much stock in the premise myself. But let's look at the obvious (just to keep you happy) The obvious mix of materials were office furnishings - I know of no office materials which burn white hot. Do you?

We have already discounted aluminum, because it never gets to the white hot temperature spectrum before melting. Under normal conditions it does not burn, it just melts and at temperatures far below the white spectrum.

So, even if you wish to appeal to Occam, then the first choice doesn't seem to be aluminum or office furnishings.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Occam's Razor DEMANDS that one FIRST considers the OBVIOUS MIX of materials and their respective 'spectrum' output upon high-heating


First, I am not a believer that Occams Razor is a law, and don't put much stock in the premise myself. But let's look at the obvious (just to keep you happy) The obvious mix of materials were office furnishings - I know of no office materials which burn white hot. Do you?

We have already discounted aluminum, because it never gets to the white hot temperature spectrum before melting. Under normal conditions it does not burn, it just melts and at temperatures far below the white spectrum.

So, even if you wish to appeal to Occam, then the first choice doesn't seem to be aluminum or office furnishings.

I and others at PhysorgForums have presented reasonable Occam's Razor observations/hypotheses in reply which have YET to be seriously challenged


Someone please hand me the shovel... it is getting deep in here. Do you call Amazing Underground Bellows and Supersonic Jet-Fuel reasonable theories? I have yet to see any gravity-driven collapse supporter make a case for gravity-driven collapse. Your nonsensical and absurd theories have been consistently exposed with no subsequent defense from your ilk.

QUOTE
As everyone here can now see for themselves (especially of late), all at Physorg have used more than enough Basic Physics (both theoretical and practical/applied) to easily 'falsify' ALL the (knowing/unknowing) lies and ignorant misunderstandings, assertions and pseudo-science so far put by your 'side'.


Well apparently (according to a couple of polls run on this thread) you and your two supporters are consistently refuted. You use the term 'ALL' quite loosely. There are far more REAL posters who agree that the case has been made by fully sufficient evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt that YOUR gravity-driven drivel is pure horsepucky. I don't include Schneibys army of puppets as counting for more than one persons opinion.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
As everyone here can now see for themselves (especially of late), all at Physorg have used more than enough Basic Physics (both theoretical and practical/applied) to easily 'falsify' ALL the (knowing/unknowing) lies and ignorant misunderstandings, assertions and pseudo-science so far put by your 'side'.


Well apparently (according to a couple of polls run on this thread) you and your two supporters are consistently refuted. You use the term 'ALL' quite loosely. There are far more REAL posters who agree that the case has been made by fully sufficient evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt that YOUR gravity-driven drivel is pure horsepucky. I don't include Schneibys army of puppets as counting for more than one persons opinion.

put together a logically/scientifically coherent (and preferably, relevant) categorised presentation of whatever 'assertions' you have to make


Start at page 1 of this thread and any rational person will easily see the case for demolition is made on each page (except those pages filled with spam).

QUOTE
Still shilling for griffin and the terrorist money-making sites


I see shades of Schneiby here, and whoa!!! wait a minute... isn't that BUSH talking there...

"Conspiracy Theorists are no better than 'Terrorists'.

What hypocrisy. The biggest terrorist state in the world over the past 50 years is clearly the US of A...

http://www.lossless-audio.com/usa/index6.php

They harbour one of the biggest terrorists the western world has ever produced...

Luis Posada Carriles...

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB153/

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Still shilling for griffin and the terrorist money-making sites


I see shades of Schneiby here, and whoa!!! wait a minute... isn't that BUSH talking there...

"Conspiracy Theorists are no better than 'Terrorists'.

What hypocrisy. The biggest terrorist state in the world over the past 50 years is clearly the US of A...

http://www.lossless-audio.com/usa/index6.php

They harbour one of the biggest terrorists the western world has ever produced...

Luis Posada Carriles...

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB153/

have you ever heard of Occam's Razor?

This demands that one first considers the obvious explanation.


We have examined the official theory extensively and found it to be completely unsupportable except by ignoramuses or disinformationists.

QUOTE
glowing embers/calcined concrete particulates and burning/molten plastic/aluminium etc will look exactly like a spray of red hot 'sparks'


Just more ignorant drivel. none of these burn at the color range seen in the video. It looks exactly the same as the effect seen by a cutting torch...

User posted image

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5...984526&q=9%2F11

AND, this is the first I've ever heard about burning concrete... I guess the Madrid Windsor building should have collapsed exactly like WTC Towers, what with all that burning concrete sending sparks everywhere. Do you honestly believe your own drivel?



Dear Foxx,

I just go for lunch and a short walk on the beach and then what do I find upon my return? Your utter ignorance, your wilful stupidity and your dishonest strawman tactics (Schneibster, adoucette and Common Sense et al were quite correct, as it transpires). Really, Foxx, I answer all your questions with scientifically confirmable facts/processes to explain the observarions according to Occam's Razor, and what do you do?...you prove beyond doubt what everyone here has claimed about you. Listen, mate......

(1) Consider: The Madrid concrete was DENSE (much like you et al) HEAVY DUTY CONCRETE re-inforced in the traditional way. The concrete membrane of the WTC floors/ceilings, on the other hand, were LIGHTWEIGHT (again, like you et al) and NOT re-inforced in the traditional manner. You got that? So it would take a lot MORE time and energy than was available in the Madrid building fire to 'calcine' significant amounts of THAT concrete in that form/density. Whereas in the WTC, the lighweight and evenly distributed and comparatively THINNER membranes were PERFECT for 'roasting' to remove the associated water (H2O) and Carbon Dioxide (CO2) from the base material Calcium Oxide (or Quicklime, CaO).

Listen and learn, Foxx:

When they make Quicklime from Limestone (CaCO3) they 'ROAST' natural rock Limestone (or Oyster Shells in some countries) to drive off the CO2 (which leaves behind a very soft and crumbly thing called Quicklime, which is EASILY POWDERISED with little effort. Much like Plaster of Paris and Gypsum Drywall stuff. Got that?

The conditions during those raging fires, along with that WTC lightweight concrete 'membrane slabs', were PERFECT to mimic INDUSTRIAL 'calcining' processes in the random areas affected. Got That?

The resulting CaO would have reacted with elemental CARBON SOOT from the office material ashes/embers, to form CALCIUM CARBIDE (CaC). This material RE-RADIATES at a MIX of SHORTER WAVELENGTHS (than the usual infra-red which is coming into it from the fires). That RE-radiation contains a MIXTURE of all the primary shorter wavelengths which mimic WHITE LIGHT. Hence the 'white' glow from some of the 'cascade' components.

That was but ONE probable 'glowing' component in that stream of embers etc.

(2) When Aluminium is melted in that 'dirty', dynamic and 'catalytic' environment full of PERFECT OXIDANTS like HOT air and 'steam' H2O and CO2 (H2O/CO2 from HydroCarbon fires; and CO2/H2O from the calcining concrete), that molten and well disturbed Aluminium METAL will ITSELF be burning with a fiercely WHITE glow. But in this case the metal is Oxygen-free to start with, so IT will actually burn like a FUEL, to produce a mixture of Aluminium Oxide (Al2O3) and Aluminium Carbide (AlC....I can't recall if THIS 'carbide' material also re-radiates a 'white' spctrum like CaC does..but you can research that for yourself, heh?)

(3) Add to the cascade of 'sparks' all the glowing embers and spent ash etc.; THEN 'spray' all that out the walls/windows from one level to the ones below by mechanical and/or fluid-dynamical events in that chaos, and see what you get.

(4) Now, you say NO GAPS between floor/ceiling edges and walls on the affected levels. Do you also say NO PLANE IMPACT? .....and no FIRE DISTORTION/BUCKLING DAMAGE either? Or perhaps, no Rubber Dampers burning off and leaving gaps? Or perhaps no 'piercings' in the floor/ceiling membrane due to local hot spots/extreme local events/stresses.

Do you even hear yourself nowadays? Take your hand off it, cos it's making you go deaf as well as blind. Where do you think such 'cascades WOULD occur, except through opportunistic openings resulting from the EXTREME CHAOS you can see happening in the videos with your own eyes (if you could still see straight). Foxx, you have to keep reminding yourself that what was going on inside WTC towers WAS NO PICNIC for the design parameters of those HUGE but VULNERABLE structures, either in WHOLE or IN PART, to the EXTREME EVENTS. Got that? Will you remind yourself before you open your mouth again?

(5) About the Camping Lantern. Obviously you suffer from the same disease that afflicts your other mates here who can't distinguish when someone is identifying/elucidating for you the PRINCIPLE/MATERIALS involved in a process/phenomena...and NOT just providing AN ANALOGY to be taken as you have taken that particular example to dishonestly set up a 'straw man' retort. Pathetic. I spoke to the principles involved, and to the materials doing the WHITE glowing; something which seemed to perplex you so much. Now that you have had the explanation above put to you as I would usually reserve for the slowest kid in the class, do you comprende the actual physical implications rather than your intentional/ignorant 'misreadings'?

(6) The perfect example of what I spoke of in (5) is your wilfully stupid and/or dishonest 'dimissal' of the point I was making about the ceiling of one level being the floor of the level above. I did so because in the earlier post you seemed to be confused, and were ranting about that 'cascade' issuing from the 'ceiling'. Apparently it had NOT occurred to you that the 'ceiling' membrane of one floor was the SAME membrane that formed the 'flooring' of the level above, where much ash and embers and glowing debris had accumulated. It was YOU that needed that pointed out to him like a two-year old. I would have MUCH preferred you not to have been so confused about it in the first place; as that would have saved some time by not having to AGAIN point out THE BLEEDIN' OBVIOUS which you UFO/CTers seem incapable of seeing like other NORMAL and UNBIASED observers.

(7) I have already acquainted all at PhysorgForums with my experience/qualifications/life situation etc. to the extent appropriate for such a forum, as can be confirmed from a scan of my posting history. YOU well know that I don't want to have to repeat myself to every idiot UFO/CTer who asks but cannot be bothered to read others' posts properly and with comprehension.

(8) And what do you and your fellow UFO/CTers not understand?......when I have stated more than once in more than one forum here, that I don't give a damn about your agendas/aspirations in politics, UFO/CTs mania, spam/scam and so on. I came here to PhysOrgForums (long before YOU and your idiot chorus, I might add) to discuss/contribute to physics and science....not to play nursemaid to idiot paranoid delusionals with LESS collective credibility, integrity and impartial intelligence than a gnat. Can't you take "NO" for an answer? If I want to discuss politics, criminality etc, I shall doubtless join an appropriate board. HERE, I just want to discuss science, physics, chemistry, biology, astronomy and astrophysics and nuclear/cosmological physics and technology. I do not like people like you who waste my time with inanities while I could be better engaged elsewhere in these fora.

In conclusion: do the right thing for once, and see without your prejudices...most of which are now apparent to all here. If you can't be honest and impartial and intelligent, what hope is there of getting through to the (physical) truth in these events/processes? Apparently your political and monetary agendas override such things as Occam's Razor and The Scientific Method. Well, at a science/physics board, such 'defects' in your approach will only inevitably result in the just ridicule which you are now increasingly bringing down upon your 'stance' with every passing day and every idiotic/dishonest post you make.....the post of yours to which I am presently replying being the latest of such.

Learn something and be fair and honest...otherwise you have lost before you have started. Obviously.

RC.
.
cosmo
I see the shenannigans never end around here. Don't forget about this little hole in your conspiracy theories.

user posted image
Guest
New video about the towers, you can watch online: September 11 Revisited
Foxx
QUOTE
by rc
(1) Consider: The Madrid concrete was DENSE (much like you et al) HEAVY DUTY CONCRETE re-inforced in the traditional way. The concrete membrane of the WTC floors/ceilings, on the other hand, were LIGHTWEIGHT (again, like you et al) and NOT re-inforced in the traditional manner. You got that? So it would take a lot MORE time and energy than was available in the Madrid building fire to 'calcine' significant amounts of THAT concrete in that form/density. Whereas in the WTC, the lighweight and evenly distributed and comparatively THINNER membranes were PERFECT for 'roasting' to remove the associated water (H2O) and Carbon Dioxide (CO2) from the base material Calcium Oxide (or Quicklime, CaO).

When they make Quicklime from Limestone (CaCO3) they 'ROAST' natural rock Limestone (or Oyster Shells in some countries) to drive off the CO2 (which leaves behind a very soft and crumbly thing called Quicklime, which is EASILY POWDERISED with little effort. Much like Plaster of Paris and Gypsum Drywall stuff. Got that?

The conditions during those raging fires, along with that WTC lightweight concrete 'membrane slabs', were PERFECT to mimic INDUSTRIAL 'calcining' processes in the random areas affected. Got That?

The resulting CaO would have reacted with elemental CARBON SOOT from the office material ashes/embers, to form CALCIUM CARBIDE (CaC).

This material RE-RADIATES at a MIX of SHORTER WAVELENGTHS (than the usual infra-red which is coming into it from the fires). That RE-radiation contains a MIXTURE of all the primary shorter wavelengths which mimic WHITE LIGHT. Hence the 'white' glow from some of the 'cascade' components.

That was but ONE probable 'glowing' component in that stream of embers etc.


Great, so now a plausible explanation is alchemy.

I say alchemy as opposed to chemistry due to the loose presumptions being made above.

You are stating some simple chemical compounds...

... and then leap off some cliff of speculation of how the fact that these compounds were contained in certain building materials implies that they automatically (no question about it - he pope-ishly claims) re-arranged themselves into your desired alternative compounds.

Where was the Calcium Oxide coming from again? Oh yeah...now I remember... the limestone flooring material !!! biggrin.gif

Seriously though...

now you are suggesting that just as Limestone (CaCO3) can have the Carbon Dioxide driven off by heat... so can Concrete --- at temperatures of around 600 C ???


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
by rc
(1) Consider: The Madrid concrete was DENSE (much like you et al) HEAVY DUTY CONCRETE re-inforced in the traditional way. The concrete membrane of the WTC floors/ceilings, on the other hand, were LIGHTWEIGHT (again, like you et al) and NOT re-inforced in the traditional manner. You got that? So it would take a lot MORE time and energy than was available in the Madrid building fire to 'calcine' significant amounts of THAT concrete in that form/density. Whereas in the WTC, the lighweight and evenly distributed and comparatively THINNER membranes were PERFECT for 'roasting' to remove the associated water (H2O) and Carbon Dioxide (CO2) from the base material Calcium Oxide (or Quicklime, CaO).

When they make Quicklime from Limestone (CaCO3) they 'ROAST' natural rock Limestone (or Oyster Shells in some countries) to drive off the CO2 (which leaves behind a very soft and crumbly thing called Quicklime, which is EASILY POWDERISED with little effort. Much like Plaster of Paris and Gypsum Drywall stuff. Got that?

The conditions during those raging fires, along with that WTC lightweight concrete 'membrane slabs', were PERFECT to mimic INDUSTRIAL 'calcining' processes in the random areas affected. Got That?

The resulting CaO would have reacted with elemental CARBON SOOT from the office material ashes/embers, to form CALCIUM CARBIDE (CaC).

This material RE-RADIATES at a MIX of SHORTER WAVELENGTHS (than the usual infra-red which is coming into it from the fires). That RE-radiation contains a MIXTURE of all the primary shorter wavelengths which mimic WHITE LIGHT. Hence the 'white' glow from some of the 'cascade' components.

That was but ONE probable 'glowing' component in that stream of embers etc.


Great, so now a plausible explanation is alchemy.

I say alchemy as opposed to chemistry due to the loose presumptions being made above.

You are stating some simple chemical compounds...

... and then leap off some cliff of speculation of how the fact that these compounds were contained in certain building materials implies that they automatically (no question about it - he pope-ishly claims) re-arranged themselves into your desired alternative compounds.

Where was the Calcium Oxide coming from again? Oh yeah...now I remember... the limestone flooring material !!! biggrin.gif

Seriously though...

now you are suggesting that just as Limestone (CaCO3) can have the Carbon Dioxide driven off by heat... so can Concrete --- at temperatures of around 600 C ???


aerated lightweight concrete is extremely fire resistant and thus well suited to fire rated applications.

Furthermore, the application of intense heat, such as an oxy torch held close to the surface, does NOT cause the concrete to spall or explode as is the case with normal dense weight concrete.

The result of this is that the reinforcing steel remains cool and protected for a much longer period. Tests and certificates from various authorities indicate that 150 mm (6") of LITEBUILT® aerated lightweight concrete achieves in excess of a four hour fire rating.

In tests undertaken in Australia, a LITEBUILT® aerated lightweight concrete wall panel, 150 mm (6") in thickness was exposed to temperatures in the vicinity of 1200°C (2192°F), with the unexposed surface only increasing by 46°C (115°F) after 5 hours.

All tests, both in Australia and internationally, indicate that LITEBUILT® aerated lightweight concrete is greatly superior to normal concrete. Even at reduced thicknesses LITEBUILT® aerated lightweight concrete will not burn, spall or give off toxic gases, fumes or smoke.


http://www.litebuilt.com/lightweight-concr...book.html#F-RES

QUOTE
The conditions during those raging fires...blah, bla, blah bla


Always with the raging infernos which NONE of you have been able to show any evidence of.

Now, just so you don't forget the actual temperatures that were involved with this alleged inferno...

From the NIST report...

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The conditions during those raging fires...blah, bla, blah bla


Always with the raging infernos which NONE of you have been able to show any evidence of.

Now, just so you don't forget the actual temperatures that were involved with this alleged inferno...

From the NIST report...



Annealing studies on recovered steels established the set of time and temperature conditions necessary to alter the steel microstructure. Based on the pre-collapse photographic evidence, the microstructures of steels known to have been exposed to fire were characterized. These microstructures show no evidence of exposure to temperatures above 600 C for any significant time.


http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NCSTAR1-3ExecutiveSummary.pdf (page 6)

From Eagar & Musso...

QUOTE
"The fire is the most misunderstood part of the WTC collapse.  Even today, the media report (and many scientists believe) that the steel melted.  It is argued that the jet fuel burns very hot, especially with so much fuel present.  This is not true....  The temperature of the fire at the WTC was not unusual, and it was most definitely not capable of melting steel. 

In combustion science, there are three basic types of flames, namely, a jet burner, a pre-mixed flame, and a diffuse flame....  In a diffuse flame, the fuel and the oxidant are not mixed before ignition, but flow together in an uncontrolled manner and combust when the fuel/oxidant ratios reach values within the flammable range.  A fireplace is a diffuse flame burning in air, as was the WTC fire.  Diffuse flames generate the lowest heat intensities of the three flame types...  [b]The maximum flame temperature increase for burning hydrocarbons (jet fuel) in air is, thus, about 1000 C --
hardly sufficient to melt steel at 1500 C."

"But it is very difficult to reach [even] this maximum temperature with a diffuse flame.  There is nothing to ensure that the fuel and air in a diffuse flame are mixed in the best ratio...  This is why the temperatures in a residential fire are usually in the 500 °C to 650 °C range [Cote, 1992].  It is known that the WTC fire was a fuel-rich, diffuse flame as evidenced by the copious black smoke....   It is known that structural steel begins to soften around 425 °C and loses about half of its strength at 650 °C [Cote, 1992].  This is why steel is stress relieved in this temperature range.  But even a 50% loss of strength is still insufficient, by itself, to explain the WTC collapse... The WTC, on this low-wind day, was likely not stressed more than a third of the design allowable... Even with its strength halved, the steel could still support two to three times the stresses imposed by a 650 °C fire."



http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/...Eagar-0112.html

Your quote: "The resulting CaO would have reacted with elemental CARBON SOOT from the office material ashes/embers, to form CALCIUM CARBIDE (CaC). ... is presumtuous and speculative at best... and more likely --- outright disinformation.

There is no evidence that temperatures were high enough to cause spalling in the heat-resistant lightweight concrete floors (which are even more heat resistant than the... "DENSE (much like you et al) HEAVY DUTY CONCRETE" that was used in the Windsor.

(Let me know when you are prepared to admit that you were wrong about the heat-resistance between regular and light-weight concrete. That's just the first of your errors related to your 'science' bull).

To further state that there were hypothetically free molecules of Calcium Oxide floating around to be able to combine with hypothetical free Carbon (pure soot) to be able to combine to hypothetically form Calcium Carbide, which could theoretically 'explain' the color spectrum which we see with our own eyes is really a stretch.

Just because there was Calcium, Carbon, and Oxygen present in the building gives you no scientific right to put these elements together to form whatever compounds you like --- that's alchemy.

You claim that the CaO "would have reacted with Carbon blah, bla, blah, bla..."

"Would have" seems to be quite a pope-ish proclamation given that I have seen you offer NO evidence to support such a scenario, you have offered NO evidence to show that free CaO was present nor that it would readily combine with soot.

Here is how Calcium Carbide is manufactured...

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
"The fire is the most misunderstood part of the WTC collapse.  Even today, the media report (and many scientists believe) that the steel melted.  It is argued that the jet fuel burns very hot, especially with so much fuel present.  This is not true....  The temperature of the fire at the WTC was not unusual, and it was most definitely not capable of melting steel. 

In combustion science, there are three basic types of flames, namely, a jet burner, a pre-mixed flame, and a diffuse flame....  In a diffuse flame, the fuel and the oxidant are not mixed before ignition, but flow together in an uncontrolled manner and combust when the fuel/oxidant ratios reach values within the flammable range.  A fireplace is a diffuse flame burning in air, as was the WTC fire.  Diffuse flames generate the lowest heat intensities of the three flame types...  [b]The maximum flame temperature increase for burning hydrocarbons (jet fuel) in air is, thus, about 1000 C -- hardly sufficient to melt steel at 1500 C."

"But it is very difficult to reach [even] this maximum temperature with a diffuse flame.  There is nothing to ensure that the fuel and air in a diffuse flame are mixed in the best ratio...  This is why the temperatures in a residential fire are usually in the 500 °C to 650 °C range [Cote, 1992].  It is known that the WTC fire was a fuel-rich, diffuse flame as evidenced by the copious black smoke....   It is known that structural steel begins to soften around 425 °C and loses about half of its strength at 650 °C [Cote, 1992].  This is why steel is stress relieved in this temperature range.  But even a 50% loss of strength is still insufficient, by itself, to explain the WTC collapse... The WTC, on this low-wind day, was likely not stressed more than a third of the design allowable... Even with its strength halved, the steel could still support two to three times the stresses imposed by a 650 °C fire."



http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/...Eagar-0112.html

Your quote: "The resulting CaO would have reacted with elemental CARBON SOOT from the office material ashes/embers, to form CALCIUM CARBIDE (CaC). ... is presumtuous and speculative at best... and more likely --- outright disinformation.

There is no evidence that temperatures were high enough to cause spalling in the heat-resistant lightweight concrete floors (which are even more heat resistant than the... "DENSE (much like you et al) HEAVY DUTY CONCRETE" that was used in the Windsor.

(Let me know when you are prepared to admit that you were wrong about the heat-resistance between regular and light-weight concrete. That's just the first of your errors related to your 'science' bull).

To further state that there were hypothetically free molecules of Calcium Oxide floating around to be able to combine with hypothetical free Carbon (pure soot) to be able to combine to hypothetically form Calcium Carbide, which could theoretically 'explain' the color spectrum which we see with our own eyes is really a stretch.

Just because there was Calcium, Carbon, and Oxygen present in the building gives you no scientific right to put these elements together to form whatever compounds you like --- that's alchemy.

You claim that the CaO "would have reacted with Carbon blah, bla, blah, bla..."

"Would have" seems to be quite a pope-ish proclamation given that I have seen you offer NO evidence to support such a scenario, you have offered NO evidence to show that free CaO was present nor that it would readily combine with soot.

Here is how Calcium Carbide is manufactured...

Calcium carbide (CaC2) is manufactured by heating a lime and carbon mixture to 2000 to 2100 C in an electric arc furnace. At those temperatures, the limestone is reduced by carbon to calcium carbide and carbon monoxide (CO), according to the following reaction:

CaO + 3C  > CaC2 + CO


http://www.epa.gov/ttn/chief/ap42/ch11/final/c11s04.pdf

2000 to 2100 C in an electric arc furnace !!!.

I never knew the raging infernos at WTC were in the range of 2000 C ! It is just amazing the science you can learn from a physics guy like RC blink.gif

But according to the alchemy of Unreality, this was just one of the compounds produced by an office fire.

Man... where DO they find these obfuscators?

Please send more-qualified shills.

Apart from those 'minor' criticisims... your theory regarding CaC as a plausible cause for the color of the molten material we see dripping in the video sounds ...'spot-on' !...and certainly much more scientifically plausible than the molten metal which we can see with our own eyes, and is a REAL Occams Razor plausibility.

Zip... out the window goes your Amazing Calcium Carbide Theory. But it does sound 'plausible'... (in alchemy).




Regarding your alleged AlC alchemy...

QUOTE
The chemical formula for Aluminium Carbide is Al4C3. Aluminium carbide is available as a yellow to brown powder.

Melting Point (°C) --- Stable to 1400


source: http://www.azom.com/details.asp?ArticleID=2282

Aluminium carbide, Al4C3 is made by heating a mixture of the elements above 1000 C. {see the above on temperatures within the "raging infernos"} The pale yellow crystals have a complex lattice structure, and react with water or dilute acids to give methane.

The Evolution of Metal Matrix Composites
An early example was SAP (sintered aluminium powder) which was made by pressing and sintering heavily oxidised aluminium flake powder, the sintered material being subsequently hot worked to break up the Al2O3 films and disperse them in finely divided form. There was some improvement in the properties but it was insufficient to make large scale use economical. The picture was, however, changed dramatically as newer procedures for getting very much finer dispersions of the non-metallic phase have been developed, and metal matrix composites (MMC) as such materials are now called, represent a major step forward in the search for improved materials i.e. with better mechanical properties especially at elevated temperatures.

The Internal Oxidation Process
A number of different processes are available for producing the very fine dispersions required. In one process an alloy of the matrix metal with the metal that forms the stable oxide is heated in an atmosphere that is reducing to the matrix metal but oxidising to the second metal. The latter is converted to oxide uniformly distributed throughout the matrix. In the case of precious metals - Ag, Pt etc heating in air can be used and a range of electrical contact materials consisting of silver with a dispersion of e.g. Cd oxide, Sn oxide, and/or In oxide are now widely used. The internal oxidation as the process is called occurs as a result of the diffusion of oxygen through the silver lattice and with large sections, this is a lengthy process. However, if powder is used a relatively short oxidising cycle is required so that the pressing and sintering of internally oxidised powder is the best procedure. In this case the object is not to improve the strength but the electrical properties, i.e. the resistance to contact welding.

Mechanical Alloying
Other composites use fibres or whiskers as the strengthening agent. The most recent process that represents a major step forward in materials for very high temperature applications, gas turbines for jet engines in particular, is mechanical alloying. This process involves milling, usually in an attritor, a mixture of a metal powder and a refractory material for long periods during which the refractory particles are broken up and incorporated in the metal. The 'alloyed' powder is subsequently compacted, sintered, and normally wrought by extrusion or hot rolling. Superalloys made in this way are now in service, and mechanically alloyed aluminium alloys are under trial. In the case of aluminium another mechanical alloy is made by a similar milling process starting with a mixture of aluminium powder and graphite which during the milling process is incorporated in the metal as aluminium carbide, Al4C3.

Source: European Powder Metallurgy Association

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The chemical formula for Aluminium Carbide is Al4C3. Aluminium carbide is available as a yellow to brown powder.

Melting Point (°C) --- Stable to 1400


source: http://www.azom.com/details.asp?ArticleID=2282

Aluminium carbide, Al4C3 is made by heating a mixture of the elements above 1000 C. {see the above on temperatures within the "raging infernos"} The pale yellow crystals have a complex lattice structure, and react with water or dilute acids to give methane.

The Evolution of Metal Matrix Composites
An early example was SAP (sintered aluminium powder) which was made by pressing and sintering heavily oxidised aluminium flake powder, the sintered material being subsequently hot worked to break up the Al2O3 films and disperse them in finely divided form. There was some improvement in the properties but it was insufficient to make large scale use economical. The picture was, however, changed dramatically as newer procedures for getting very much finer dispersions of the non-metallic phase have been developed, and metal matrix composites (MMC) as such materials are now called, represent a major step forward in the search for improved materials i.e. with better mechanical properties especially at elevated temperatures.

The Internal Oxidation Process
A number of different processes are available for producing the very fine dispersions required. In one process an alloy of the matrix metal with the metal that forms the stable oxide is heated in an atmosphere that is reducing to the matrix metal but oxidising to the second metal. The latter is converted to oxide uniformly distributed throughout the matrix. In the case of precious metals - Ag, Pt etc heating in air can be used and a range of electrical contact materials consisting of silver with a dispersion of e.g. Cd oxide, Sn oxide, and/or In oxide are now widely used. The internal oxidation as the process is called occurs as a result of the diffusion of oxygen through the silver lattice and with large sections, this is a lengthy process. However, if powder is used a relatively short oxidising cycle is required so that the pressing and sintering of internally oxidised powder is the best procedure. In this case the object is not to improve the strength but the electrical properties, i.e. the resistance to contact welding.

Mechanical Alloying
Other composites use fibres or whiskers as the strengthening agent. The most recent process that represents a major step forward in materials for very high temperature applications, gas turbines for jet engines in particular, is mechanical alloying. This process involves milling, usually in an attritor, a mixture of a metal powder and a refractory material for long periods during which the refractory particles are broken up and incorporated in the metal. The 'alloyed' powder is subsequently compacted, sintered, and normally wrought by extrusion or hot rolling. Superalloys made in this way are now in service, and mechanically alloyed aluminium alloys are under trial. In the case of aluminium another mechanical alloy is made by a similar milling process starting with a mixture of aluminium powder and graphite which during the milling process is incorporated in the metal as aluminium carbide, Al4C3.

Source: European Powder Metallurgy Association

aluminum is extremely reactive, and any bare surface instantly grows a microscopic oxide layer (corundum) that is air tight and prevents further oxidation. In extreme heat... {>2500 C (were the fires at WTC That Hot ?}... aluminum can begin to burn (similarly to magnesium), and can even burn under water by stealing the oxygen from water. The mixture called thermite is powdered aluminum and iron oxide. When ignited, the aluminum steals the oxygen from the rust, generating a great deal of heat and leaving molten iron. Also, powdered aluminum is a primary ingredient in slow explosives such as fireworks.


http://mineral.galleries.com/minerals/elem...um/aluminum.htm

Zip... out the window goes your Amazing Aircraft Aluminum Carbide Theory. But it sounds plausible... (in alchemy).

Hasta Manyana --- Oh great physorg 'Scientist' who has "experience in real science/problemsolving/troubleshooting in all areas of science/industry/commerce".

You should finish high school before posting on a REAL science and physics thread.



Guest
QUOTE (Guest+Feb 27 2006, 08:37 AM)
New video about the towers, you can watch online: September 11 Revisited

Just more media students editing the truth out.
Commen sense
Talk about LEAPS off a cliff of speculation... The most I can make of Faux's post is that he thinks someone was welding in the fire... Heh!

Raging inferno...

User posted image

Those are observed fires.

User posted image

If that's not a raging inferno I don't know what is...

adoucette
So Foxx,

After 4 years of study, ReasonWhy posts about Thermobaric weapons (which IIRC you had made MANY posts putting down as outlandish) and then a few new pictures of a HOT fire (which you spent many posts saying how the fires in the Towers were barely burning) and you now have a NEW theory on why the towers collapsed?

Friggin Amazing.

You've got chameleons all over the world GREEN with envy.

Also, when you are making a POINT about how high the temps were in the WTC, why go back to Eagar? I don't believe he had performed any ACTUAL tests had he?

Isn't his paper MAINLY speculation???? I mean he doesn't seem to indicate that the numbers he gives are based on any actual measurement of sophisticated modeling does he?

And FINALLY, when you DO quote someone trying to make a point about how high the temperatures got, it is DISHONEST to leave out a sentence that CLARIFIES the quote you provided, particularly if it CONTAINS a HIGHER temperature.

For other readers the Sentence that Foxx left out:

Soot is generated by incompletely burned fuel; hence, the WTC fire was fuel rich—hardly surprising with 90,000 L of jet fuel available. Factors such as flame volume and quantity of soot decrease the radiative heat loss in the fire, moving the temperature closer to the maximum of 1,000°C. However, it is highly unlikely that the steel at the WTC experienced temperatures above the 750–800°C range.

So what Foxx left out was the INFORMATION that even in a FUEL RICH fire the temps could get to 1,000 C and he also left out Eagar's SPECULATION that the STEEL didn't get above 750-800C.

As it turns out, the NIST fire model was in reasonable agreement with the sentence that Foxx left out.

Foxx, could you BE anymore dishonest?

Arthur
adoucette
Foxx's REAL AGENDA:

QUOTE (Foxx Feb 27th+2006)
The biggest terrorist state in the world over the past 50 years is clearly the US of A...


Which is why his posts have been really nothing more than a political attack.

Obviously Foxx is just another America hater and probably an Al Qaeda supporter as well.

Which is why he abandons his carefully crafted position when it is shown to be crap and jumps on ReasonWhy's bandwagon. He isn't interested in the truth, only creating Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD).


Arthur





Guest
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Feb 26 2006, 11:30 PM)
Now, as to the 'colour spectrum' presented by the burning/glowing embers/concrete dust etc. Tell me Foxx, are you old enough to remember those good old Calcium Carbide lamps used on coaches (today, you'd probably be more familiar with those nifty Camping Lanterns) which burn KEROSENE or sufficiently convenient, hot-burn fuels) to heat that Calcium Carbide (or other equivalently suitable) 're-radiator/mantle' material surrounding the flame; and how that Calcium Carbide GLOWED with a clean WHITE light?

All-around super-scientist, Huh?

This is NOT how Calcium Carbide lamps work! Calcium carbide is not the catalyst, it is the fuel. If you were such a great, knowledgable scientist, you would know that carbide lamps do not use any fuel besides the calcium carbide, and water with which it reacts to produce acetylene gas.

Where's the meat (table top fusion expert)?? How are we supposed to believe any of your BS?
shagster
Cameraplanet archive had some excellent 911 clips. Looks like they are no longer available to the general public, though. Some of them are on Google.

The video of the south tower shows the northeast corner buckling inward as the collapse begins. Before the collapse, the east face near the fire appears buckled inward.

The glowing material emptying out the northeast corner appears to be a metal. It doesn't fly about like embers from a textile fire, suggesting it was fairly dense. The globules appear to keep glowing as they fall which would be expected for a metal which have high heat capacity. Most likely it's aluminum. It appears to be orange hot, perhaps around 800-1000C. Molten steel would have appeared even brighter.

Pure aluminum melts at 660C and boils at 2519C, so molten pure aluminum can be anywhere between 660C and 2519C.

There was about 70,000 kg of aluminum alloy in the fuselage and wings. Most of that was probably 2024 alloy which melts around 550C. The fires were hot enough to melt that alloy. The molten metal didn't appear until about 10 minutes before the collapse, from what I've read. That's consistent with the fact that it takes time for the metal to heat up and melt in the fire. Much of the aircraft was probably near the northeast corner since it's momentum would have carried it to that region, the same region where the molten metal was seen pouring out.
shagster
I wish I had a better video clip of the material pouring out the northeast corner. Some of the globules don't appear to be glowing as they exit and they have a silvery appearance. But when they strike the aluminum facade on the way down, they light up into an orange color.
Guest
Funny how the CT clowns asks "What is it" and when someone [speculates] as to what it could be the CT clowns jump all over them. That's why I don't bother to speculate. NO ONE KNOWS FOR SURE what that is.

Absence of evidence ISN'T EVIDENCE!
adoucette
The difference is Foxx, while RC spent some late night time considering, as he said, PLAUSIBLE answers to what the material was, you already appeared to have jumped right to conclusions.

So you say:
QUOTE
your theory regarding CaC as a plausible cause for the color of the molten material we see dripping in the video sounds ...'spot-on' !...and certainly much more scientifically plausible than the molten metal which we can see with our own eyes, and is a REAL Occams Razor plausibility.


But we note that within hours Shagster has already shown how aluminum from the plane would be a very plausible candidate. Much more plausible than the pictures that you have put on your website labeled THERMITE.

laugh.gif

Arthur
Guest
QUOTE (Guest+Feb 27 2006, 02:44 PM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Feb 26 2006, 11:30 PM)
Now, as to the 'colour spectrum' presented by the burning/glowing embers/concrete dust etc. Tell me Foxx, are you old enough to remember those good old Calcium Carbide lamps used on coaches (today, you'd probably be more familiar with those nifty Camping Lanterns) which burn KEROSENE or sufficiently convenient, hot-burn fuels) to heat that Calcium Carbide (or other equivalently suitable) 're-radiator/mantle' material surrounding the flame; and how that Calcium Carbide GLOWED with a clean WHITE light?

All-around super-scientist, Huh?

This is NOT how Calcium Carbide lamps work! Calcium carbide is not the catalyst, it is the fuel. If you were such a great, knowledgable scientist, you would know that carbide lamps do not use any fuel besides the calcium carbide, and water with which it reacts to produce acetylene gas.

Where's the meat (table top fusion expert)?? How are we supposed to believe any of your BS?

This is ALL the evidence you need to know about RC! He LIES!
Guest
What's the matter RC? Wombat got your tongue?
shagster
I wouldn't rule out thermite reactions. All the needed materials were there: molten aluminum (apparently) and oxygen bearing materials, such as gypsum board, concrete, rust on the steel beams, and water (broken water pipes). Molten aluminum could react with the oxygen in any of those materials and produce a thermite reaction. Molten aluminum spills on concrete are known from experience to produce thermite reactions. Industry has had accidents like those before. Water getting into an aluminum melt can cause explosions. Molten aircraft aluminum has been known to leave a crater in concrete. Molten aluminum on gypsum or rusty beams could also produce thermite reactions.

No one has really shown good evidence for any type of thermite reactions in WTC. The fires alone were hot enough to cause the orange colored liquid flowing from WTC2.
Guest
QUOTE (Guest+Feb 27 2006, 03:16 PM)
QUOTE (Guest+Feb 27 2006, 02:44 PM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Feb 26 2006, 11:30 PM)
Now, as to the 'colour spectrum' presented by the burning/glowing embers/concrete dust etc. Tell me Foxx, are you old enough to remember those good old Calcium Carbide lamps used on coaches (today, you'd probably be more familiar with those nifty Camping Lanterns) which burn KEROSENE or sufficiently convenient, hot-burn fuels) to heat that Calcium Carbide (or other equivalently suitable) 're-radiator/mantle' material surrounding the flame; and how that Calcium Carbide GLOWED with a clean WHITE light?

All-around super-scientist, Huh?

This is NOT how Calcium Carbide lamps work! Calcium carbide is not the catalyst, it is the fuel. If you were such a great, knowledgable scientist, you would know that carbide lamps do not use any fuel besides the calcium carbide, and water with which it reacts to produce acetylene gas.

Where's the meat (table top fusion expert)?? How are we supposed to believe any of your BS?

This is ALL the evidence you need to know about RC! He LIES!

An old republican trick, lie about what someone says then call them a liar. RC never said it's a "catalyst".
reasonwhy
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 27 2006, 06:04 AM)
So Foxx,

After 4 years of study, ReasonWhy posts about Thermobaric weapons (which IIRC you had made MANY posts putting down as outlandish) and then a few new pictures of a HOT fire (which you spent many posts saying how the fires in the Towers were barely burning) and you now have a NEW theory on why the towers collapsed?

Friggin Amazing.

You've got chameleons all over the world GREEN with envy.

Also, when you are making a POINT about how high the temps were in the WTC, why go back to Eagar? I don't believe he had performed any ACTUAL tests had he?

Isn't his paper MAINLY speculation???? I mean he doesn't seem to indicate that the numbers he gives are based on any actual measurement of sophisticated modeling does he?

And FINALLY, when you DO quote someone trying to make a point about how high the temperatures got, it is DISHONEST to leave out a sentence that CLARIFIES the quote you provided, particularly if it CONTAINS a HIGHER temperature.

For other readers the Sentence that Foxx left out:

Soot is generated by incompletely burned fuel; hence, the WTC fire was fuel rich—hardly surprising with 90,000 L of jet fuel available. Factors such as flame volume and quantity of soot decrease the radiative heat loss in the fire, moving the temperature closer to the maximum of 1,000°C. However, it is highly unlikely that the steel at the WTC experienced temperatures above the 750–800°C range.

So what Foxx left out was the INFORMATION that even in a FUEL RICH fire the temps could get to 1,000 C and he also left out Eagar's SPECULATION that the STEEL didn't get above 750-800C.

As it turns out, the NIST fire model was in reasonable agreement with the  sentence that Foxx left out.

Foxx, could you BE anymore dishonest?

Arthur

Foxx did not support Thermobaric weapons , he just did not rule it out. You have not responded to my post on the subject:

From what I have read about Thermobaric explosives they would be the demolition tool of choice if you were worried about comparisons to controlled demolition. They have been used by other militaries for years to implode structures. The noise and pressure wave would be much less detectable then high explosives. Computer programs can accurately calculate the blast effects. Thermobaric weapons are only good on soft targets so the bombs could be set of in the elevator shafts to destabilize the core after Termite cut the steel columns and truss supports. The core walls could shield the fireball of the initial blast. The secondary effect would implode the remaining structure. This device can create overpressures equal to a small nuclear weapon accounting for the energy to turn concrete into fine powder without detectable radiation.


“The bomb detonated by al-Qaeda operatives on the Indonesian island of Bali, used the same principles that are behind thermobaric explosives, say scientists with Defense Research and Development Canada. "We just learned about thermobaric explosives in the late '80s when the Soviet Union was disintegrating," said Stephen Murray, head of the threat assessment group at the defense agency's Suffield, Alta., laboratories. "Those weapons later started showing up on the open market."

Eyewitness accounts do support conventional controlled demolition. Conventional explosives and gravity driven collapse do not account for the pulverized concrete. NIST and FEMA just ignore the subject. I am trying to find a source of the great amount of energy required for the pulverization of concrete.

Am I a terrorist for doubting the official conspiracy theory? Next, there will be laws against doubting the official 9/11 theory. I am sure your friends have already written the legislation.

User posted image
brian
Greening's response to Prof. Jones - "Experiments Testing Greening’s Hypothesis Regarding Molten Aluminum"

"In conclusion I would say that Prof. Jones is, of course, entitled to his opinion, but I would argue that his “simulation” lacks most of the key conditions that were present in the WTC impact zones on 9-11, namely prolonged fires ignited by aviation fuel, sustained by burning plastics, paper, furniture, etc, that directly heated water, aluminum and rusted steel in the presence of crushed concrete and gypsum. I challenge Prof. Jones to repeat his tests under these conditions and publish the results."

http://www.911myths.com/WTCTHERM.pdf



How absurd. Greening challenges Jones to go chasing moonbeams. The scientific method would be for Greening to attempt to produce the effect in a controlled and quantifiable experiment which could then be repeated and tested.

Remember that this thermite like effect of all the variables Greening mentions (a perfect storm) would have to take place in not just one instance but three, one of which was absent the aviation fuel he deems Jones should include in any experiment. To this Greening responds -

"Ah yes, the WTC 7 collapse! What can I say…… Since no aircraft hit WTC 7, I have no provable proposal for what brought that building down.”

"no provable proposal" - indeed.

Like the official conspiracy theory supporters here Greening is reduced to mumbo jumbo.

Experiments testing Greening's hypothesis regarding Molten Aluminum

http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/ExptAlMelt.doc
RealityCheck
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 27 2006, 09:18 AM)
QUOTE
by rc
(1) Consider: The Madrid concrete was DENSE (much like you et al) HEAVY DUTY CONCRETE re-inforced in the traditional way. The concrete membrane of the WTC floors/ceilings, on the other hand, were LIGHTWEIGHT (again, like you et al) and NOT re-inforced in the traditional manner. You got that? So it would take a lot MORE time and energy than was available in the Madrid building fire to 'calcine' significant amounts of THAT concrete in that form/density. Whereas in the WTC, the lighweight and evenly distributed and comparatively THINNER membranes were PERFECT for 'roasting' to remove the associated water (H2O) and Carbon Dioxide (CO2) from the base material Calcium Oxide (or Quicklime, CaO).

When they make Quicklime from Limestone (CaCO3) they 'ROAST' natural rock Limestone (or Oyster Shells in some countries) to drive off the CO2 (which leaves behind a very soft and crumbly thing called Quicklime, which is EASILY POWDERISED with little effort. Much like Plaster of Paris and Gypsum Drywall stuff. Got that?

The conditions during those raging fires, along with that WTC lightweight concrete 'membrane slabs', were PERFECT to mimic INDUSTRIAL 'calcining' processes in the random areas affected. Got That?

The resulting CaO would have reacted with elemental CARBON SOOT from the office material ashes/embers, to form CALCIUM CARBIDE (CaC).

This material RE-RADIATES at a MIX of SHORTER WAVELENGTHS (than the usual infra-red which is coming into it from the fires). That RE-radiation contains a MIXTURE of all the primary shorter wavelengths which mimic WHITE LIGHT. Hence the 'white' glow from some of the 'cascade' components.

That was but ONE probable 'glowing' component in that stream of embers etc.


Great, so now a plausible explanation is alchemy.

I say alchemy as opposed to chemistry due to the loose presumptions being made above.

You are stating some simple chemical compounds...

... and then leap off some cliff of speculation of how the fact that these compounds were contained in certain building materials implies that they automatically (no question about it - he pope-ishly claims) re-arranged themselves into your desired alternative compounds.

Where was the Calcium Oxide coming from again? Oh yeah...now I remember... the limestone flooring material !!! biggrin.gif

Seriously though...

now you are suggesting that just as Limestone (CaCO3) can have the Carbon Dioxide driven off by heat... so can Concrete --- at temperatures of around 600 C ???


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
by rc
(1) Consider: The Madrid concrete was DENSE (much like you et al) HEAVY DUTY CONCRETE re-inforced in the traditional way. The concrete membrane of the WTC floors/ceilings, on the other hand, were LIGHTWEIGHT (again, like you et al) and NOT re-inforced in the traditional manner. You got that? So it would take a lot MORE time and energy than was available in the Madrid building fire to 'calcine' significant amounts of THAT concrete in that form/density. Whereas in the WTC, the lighweight and evenly distributed and comparatively THINNER membranes were PERFECT for 'roasting' to remove the associated water (H2O) and Carbon Dioxide (CO2) from the base material Calcium Oxide (or Quicklime, CaO).

When they make Quicklime from Limestone (CaCO3) they 'ROAST' natural rock Limestone (or Oyster Shells in some countries) to drive off the CO2 (which leaves behind a very soft and crumbly thing called Quicklime, which is EASILY POWDERISED with little effort. Much like Plaster of Paris and Gypsum Drywall stuff. Got that?

The conditions during those raging fires, along with that WTC lightweight concrete 'membrane slabs', were PERFECT to mimic INDUSTRIAL 'calcining' processes in the random areas affected. Got That?

The resulting CaO would have reacted with elemental CARBON SOOT from the office material ashes/embers, to form CALCIUM CARBIDE (CaC).

This material RE-RADIATES at a MIX of SHORTER WAVELENGTHS (than the usual infra-red which is coming into it from the fires). That RE-radiation contains a MIXTURE of all the primary shorter wavelengths which mimic WHITE LIGHT. Hence the 'white' glow from some of the 'cascade' components.

That was but ONE probable 'glowing' component in that stream of embers etc.


Great, so now a plausible explanation is alchemy.

I say alchemy as opposed to chemistry due to the loose presumptions being made above.

You are stating some simple chemical compounds...

... and then leap off some cliff of speculation of how the fact that these compounds were contained in certain building materials implies that they automatically (no question about it - he pope-ishly claims) re-arranged themselves into your desired alternative compounds.

Where was the Calcium Oxide coming from again? Oh yeah...now I remember... the limestone flooring material !!! biggrin.gif

Seriously though...

now you are suggesting that just as Limestone (CaCO3) can have the Carbon Dioxide driven off by heat... so can Concrete --- at temperatures of around 600 C ???


aerated lightweight concrete is extremely fire resistant and thus well suited to fire rated applications.

Furthermore, the application of intense heat, such as an oxy torch held close to the surface, does NOT cause the concrete to spall or explode as is the case with normal dense weight concrete.

The result of this is that the reinforcing steel remains cool and protected for a much longer period. Tests and certificates from various authorities indicate that 150 mm (6") of LITEBUILT® aerated lightweight concrete achieves in excess of a four hour fire rating.

In tests undertaken in Australia, a LITEBUILT® aerated lightweight concrete wall panel, 150 mm (6") in thickness was exposed to temperatures in the vicinity of 1200°C (2192°F), with the unexposed surface only increasing by 46°C (115°F) after 5 hours.

All tests, both in Australia and internationally, indicate that LITEBUILT® aerated lightweight concrete is greatly superior to normal concrete. Even at reduced thicknesses LITEBUILT® aerated lightweight concrete will not burn, spall or give off toxic gases, fumes or smoke.


http://www.litebuilt.com/lightweight-concr...book.html#F-RES

QUOTE
The conditions during those raging fires...blah, bla, blah bla


Always with the raging infernos which NONE of you have been able to show any evidence of.

Now, just so you don't forget the actual temperatures that were involved with this alleged inferno...

From the NIST report...

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The conditions during those raging fires...blah, bla, blah bla


Always with the raging infernos which NONE of you have been able to show any evidence of.

Now, just so you don't forget the actual temperatures that were involved with this alleged inferno...

From the NIST report...



Annealing studies on recovered steels established the set of time and temperature conditions necessary to alter the steel microstructure. Based on the pre-collapse photographic evidence, the microstructures of steels known to have been exposed to fire were characterized. These microstructures show no evidence of exposure to temperatures above 600 C for any significant time.


http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NCSTAR1-3ExecutiveSummary.pdf (page 6)

From Eagar & Musso...

QUOTE
"The fire is the most misunderstood part of the WTC collapse.  Even today, the media report (and many scientists believe) that the steel melted.  It is argued that the jet fuel burns very hot, especially with so much fuel present.  This is not true....  The temperature of the fire at the WTC was not unusual, and it was most definitely not capable of melting steel. 

In combustion science, there are three basic types of flames, namely, a jet burner, a pre-mixed flame, and a diffuse flame....  In a diffuse flame, the fuel and the oxidant are not mixed before ignition, but flow together in an uncontrolled manner and combust when the fuel/oxidant ratios reach values within the flammable range.  A fireplace is a diffuse flame burning in air, as was the WTC fire.  Diffuse flames generate the lowest heat intensities of the three flame types...  [b]The maximum flame temperature increase for burning hydrocarbons (jet fuel) in air is, thus, about 1000 C --
hardly sufficient to melt steel at 1500 C."

"But it is very difficult to reach [even] this maximum temperature with a diffuse flame.  There is nothing to ensure that the fuel and air in a diffuse flame are mixed in the best ratio...  This is why the temperatures in a residential fire are usually in the 500 °C to 650 °C range [Cote, 1992].  It is known that the WTC fire was a fuel-rich, diffuse flame as evidenced by the copious black smoke....   It is known that structural steel begins to soften around 425 °C and loses about half of its strength at 650 °C [Cote, 1992].  This is why steel is stress relieved in this temperature range.  But even a 50% loss of strength is still insufficient, by itself, to explain the WTC collapse... The WTC, on this low-wind day, was likely not stressed more than a third of the design allowable... Even with its strength halved, the steel could still support two to three times the stresses imposed by a 650 °C fire."



http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/...Eagar-0112.html

Your quote: "The resulting CaO would have reacted with elemental CARBON SOOT from the office material ashes/embers, to form CALCIUM CARBIDE (CaC). ... is presumtuous and speculative at best... and more likely --- outright disinformation.

There is no evidence that temperatures were high enough to cause spalling in the heat-resistant lightweight concrete floors (which are even more heat resistant than the... "DENSE (much like you et al) HEAVY DUTY CONCRETE" that was used in the Windsor.

(Let me know when you are prepared to admit that you were wrong about the heat-resistance between regular and light-weight concrete. That's just the first of your errors related to your 'science' bull).

To further state that there were hypothetically free molecules of Calcium Oxide floating around to be able to combine with hypothetical free Carbon (pure soot) to be able to combine to hypothetically form Calcium Carbide, which could theoretically 'explain' the color spectrum which we see with our own eyes is really a stretch.

Just because there was Calcium, Carbon, and Oxygen present in the building gives you no scientific right to put these elements together to form whatever compounds you like --- that's alchemy.

You claim that the CaO "would have reacted with Carbon blah, bla, blah, bla..."

"Would have" seems to be quite a pope-ish proclamation given that I have seen you offer NO evidence to support such a scenario, you have offered NO evidence to show that free CaO was present nor that it would readily combine with soot.

Here is how Calcium Carbide is manufactured...

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
"The fire is the most misunderstood part of the WTC collapse.  Even today, the media report (and many scientists believe) that the steel melted.  It is argued that the jet fuel burns very hot, especially with so much fuel present.  This is not true....  The temperature of the fire at the WTC was not unusual, and it was most definitely not capable of melting steel. 

In combustion science, there are three basic types of flames, namely, a jet burner, a pre-mixed flame, and a diffuse flame....  In a diffuse flame, the fuel and the oxidant are not mixed before ignition, but flow together in an uncontrolled manner and combust when the fuel/oxidant ratios reach values within the flammable range.  A fireplace is a diffuse flame burning in air, as was the WTC fire.  Diffuse flames generate the lowest heat intensities of the three flame types...  [b]The maximum flame temperature increase for burning hydrocarbons (jet fuel) in air is, thus, about 1000 C -- hardly sufficient to melt steel at 1500 C."

"But it is very difficult to reach [even] this maximum temperature with a diffuse flame.  There is nothing to ensure that the fuel and air in a diffuse flame are mixed in the best ratio...  This is why the temperatures in a residential fire are usually in the 500 °C to 650 °C range [Cote, 1992].  It is known that the WTC fire was a fuel-rich, diffuse flame as evidenced by the copious black smoke....   It is known that structural steel begins to soften around 425 °C and loses about half of its strength at 650 °C [Cote, 1992].  This is why steel is stress relieved in this temperature range.  But even a 50% loss of strength is still insufficient, by itself, to explain the WTC collapse... The WTC, on this low-wind day, was likely not stressed more than a third of the design allowable... Even with its strength halved, the steel could still support two to three times the stresses imposed by a 650 °C fire."



http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/...Eagar-0112.html

Your quote: "The resulting CaO would have reacted with elemental CARBON SOOT from the office material ashes/embers, to form CALCIUM CARBIDE (CaC). ... is presumtuous and speculative at best... and more likely --- outright disinformation.

There is no evidence that temperatures were high enough to cause spalling in the heat-resistant lightweight concrete floors (which are even more heat resistant than the... "DENSE (much like you et al) HEAVY DUTY CONCRETE" that was used in the Windsor.

(Let me know when you are prepared to admit that you were wrong about the heat-resistance between regular and light-weight concrete. That's just the first of your errors related to your 'science' bull).

To further state that there were hypothetically free molecules of Calcium Oxide floating around to be able to combine with hypothetical free Carbon (pure soot) to be able to combine to hypothetically form Calcium Carbide, which could theoretically 'explain' the color spectrum which we see with our own eyes is really a stretch.

Just because there was Calcium, Carbon, and Oxygen present in the building gives you no scientific right to put these elements together to form whatever compounds you like --- that's alchemy.

You claim that the CaO "would have reacted with Carbon blah, bla, blah, bla..."

"Would have" seems to be quite a pope-ish proclamation given that I have seen you offer NO evidence to support such a scenario, you have offered NO evidence to show that free CaO was present nor that it would readily combine with soot.

Here is how Calcium Carbide is manufactured...

Calcium carbide (CaC2) is manufactured by heating a lime and carbon mixture to 2000 to 2100 C in an electric arc furnace. At those temperatures, the limestone is reduced by carbon to calcium carbide and carbon monoxide (CO), according to the following reaction:

CaO + 3C  > CaC2 + CO


http://www.epa.gov/ttn/chief/ap42/ch11/final/c11s04.pdf

2000 to 2100 C in an electric arc furnace !!!.

I never knew the raging infernos at WTC were in the range of 2000 C ! It is just amazing the science you can learn from a physics guy like RC blink.gif

But according to the alchemy of Unreality, this was just one of the compounds produced by an office fire.

Man... where DO they find these obfuscators?

Please send more-qualified shills.

Apart from those 'minor' criticisims... your theory regarding CaC as a plausible cause for the color of the molten material we see dripping in the video sounds ...'spot-on' !...and certainly much more scientifically plausible than the molten metal which we can see with our own eyes, and is a REAL Occams Razor plausibility.

Zip... out the window goes your Amazing Calcium Carbide Theory. But it does sound 'plausible'... (in alchemy).




Regarding your alleged AlC alchemy...

QUOTE
The chemical formula for Aluminium Carbide is Al4C3. Aluminium carbide is available as a yellow to brown powder.

Melting Point (°C) --- Stable to 1400


source: http://www.azom.com/details.asp?ArticleID=2282

Aluminium carbide, Al4C3 is made by heating a mixture of the elements above 1000 C. {see the above on temperatures within the "raging infernos"} The pale yellow crystals have a complex lattice structure, and react with water or dilute acids to give methane.

The Evolution of Metal Matrix Composites
An early example was SAP (sintered aluminium powder) which was made by pressing and sintering heavily oxidised aluminium flake powder, the sintered material being subsequently hot worked to break up the Al2O3 films and disperse them in finely divided form. There was some improvement in the properties but it was insufficient to make large scale use economical. The picture was, however, changed dramatically as newer procedures for getting very much finer dispersions of the non-metallic phase have been developed, and metal matrix composites (MMC) as such materials are now called, represent a major step forward in the search for improved materials i.e. with better mechanical properties especially at elevated temperatures.

The Internal Oxidation Process
A number of different processes are available for producing the very fine dispersions required. In one process an alloy of the matrix metal with the metal that forms the stable oxide is heated in an atmosphere that is reducing to the matrix metal but oxidising to the second metal. The latter is converted to oxide uniformly distributed throughout the matrix. In the case of precious metals - Ag, Pt etc heating in air can be used and a range of electrical contact materials consisting of silver with a dispersion of e.g. Cd oxide, Sn oxide, and/or In oxide are now widely used. The internal oxidation as the process is called occurs as a result of the diffusion of oxygen through the silver lattice and with large sections, this is a lengthy process. However, if powder is used a relatively short oxidising cycle is required so that the pressing and sintering of internally oxidised powder is the best procedure. In this case the object is not to improve the strength but the electrical properties, i.e. the resistance to contact welding.

Mechanical Alloying
Other composites use fibres or whiskers as the strengthening agent. The most recent process that represents a major step forward in materials for very high temperature applications, gas turbines for jet engines in particular, is mechanical alloying. This process involves milling, usually in an attritor, a mixture of a metal powder and a refractory material for long periods during which the refractory particles are broken up and incorporated in the metal. The 'alloyed' powder is subsequently compacted, sintered, and normally wrought by extrusion or hot rolling. Superalloys made in this way are now in service, and mechanically alloyed aluminium alloys are under trial. In the case of aluminium another mechanical alloy is made by a similar milling process starting with a mixture of aluminium powder and graphite which during the milling process is incorporated in the metal as aluminium carbide, Al4C3.

Source: European Powder Metallurgy Association

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The chemical formula for Aluminium Carbide is Al4C3. Aluminium carbide is available as a yellow to brown powder.

Melting Point (°C) --- Stable to 1400


source: http://www.azom.com/details.asp?ArticleID=2282

Aluminium carbide, Al4C3 is made by heating a mixture of the elements above 1000 C. {see the above on temperatures within the "raging infernos"} The pale yellow crystals have a complex lattice structure, and react with water or dilute acids to give methane.

The Evolution of Metal Matrix Composites
An early example was SAP (sintered aluminium powder) which was made by pressing and sintering heavily oxidised aluminium flake powder, the sintered material being subsequently hot worked to break up the Al2O3 films and disperse them in finely divided form. There was some improvement in the properties but it was insufficient to make large scale use economical. The picture was, however, changed dramatically as newer procedures for getting very much finer dispersions of the non-metallic phase have been developed, and metal matrix composites (MMC) as such materials are now called, represent a major step forward in the search for improved materials i.e. with better mechanical properties especially at elevated temperatures.

The Internal Oxidation Process
A number of different processes are available for producing the very fine dispersions required. In one process an alloy of the matrix metal with the metal that forms the stable oxide is heated in an atmosphere that is reducing to the matrix metal but oxidising to the second metal. The latter is converted to oxide uniformly distributed throughout the matrix. In the case of precious metals - Ag, Pt etc heating in air can be used and a range of electrical contact materials consisting of silver with a dispersion of e.g. Cd oxide, Sn oxide, and/or In oxide are now widely used. The internal oxidation as the process is called occurs as a result of the diffusion of oxygen through the silver lattice and with large sections, this is a lengthy process. However, if powder is used a relatively short oxidising cycle is required so that the pressing and sintering of internally oxidised powder is the best procedure. In this case the object is not to improve the strength but the electrical properties, i.e. the resistance to contact welding.

Mechanical Alloying
Other composites use fibres or whiskers as the strengthening agent. The most recent process that represents a major step forward in materials for very high temperature applications, gas turbines for jet engines in particular, is mechanical alloying. This process involves milling, usually in an attritor, a mixture of a metal powder and a refractory material for long periods during which the refractory particles are broken up and incorporated in the metal. The 'alloyed' powder is subsequently compacted, sintered, and normally wrought by extrusion or hot rolling. Superalloys made in this way are now in service, and mechanically alloyed aluminium alloys are under trial. In the case of aluminium another mechanical alloy is made by a similar milling process starting with a mixture of aluminium powder and graphite which during the milling process is incorporated in the metal as aluminium carbide, Al4C3.

Source: European Powder Metallurgy Association

aluminum is extremely reactive, and any bare surface instantly grows a microscopic oxide layer (corundum) that is air tight and prevents further oxidation. In extreme heat... {>2500 C (were the fires at WTC That Hot ?}... aluminum can begin to burn (similarly to magnesium), and can even burn under water by stealing the oxygen from water. The mixture called thermite is powdered aluminum and iron oxide. When ignited, the aluminum steals the oxygen from the rust, generating a great deal of heat and leaving molten iron. Also, powdered aluminum is a primary ingredient in slow explosives such as fireworks.


http://mineral.galleries.com/minerals/elem...um/aluminum.htm

Zip... out the window goes your Amazing Aircraft Aluminum Carbide Theory. But it sounds plausible... (in alchemy).

Hasta Manyana --- Oh great physorg 'Scientist' who has "experience in real science/problemsolving/troubleshooting in all areas of science/industry/commerce".

You should finish high school before posting on a REAL science and physics thread.


Helo Foxx!

You have described the INDUSTRIAL PROCESSES which produce COMMERCIAL QUANTITIES of 'PURE' or HIGH QUALITY compounds under PREFERRED conditions.

But in WTC towers there was PLANE ALUMINIUM all over the floors amidst hot CARBONACEOUS by-products of combusted wood/plastics. Hardly a 'controlled' commercial/industrial production line such as you describe for producing the BEST AND MOST EFFICIENT QUANTITIES.

The temps/equipment etc. used in industries are DESIGNED for that efficiency/quality because of COST/PROFIT of materials/energy and desired product.

Whereas the conditions in WTC were chaotic and the LIGHTWEIGHT CONCRETE was IMPACT DAMAGED and so shattered in some areas to begin with, and was NOT 're-inforced' with rebar but was merely 'RUN THROUGH' by the truss rod material. So the comparisons with 'controlled conditions' tests DO NOT APPLY here. The 'pieces' would NOT act like the BULK 'PRISTINE' state of the tests you quote. So the test ratings are IRRELEVANT in the WTC chaos, impact damage.

Moreover, there were HOT SPOTS where Aluminium was being consumed at HIGH temps along with all the other materials, and 'well-Oxygenated' by LOCALISED cyclonic swirls of air (that occur with ANY such fires in such conditions) PLUS 'thermitically' EXTRACTED CO2 and H2O from those HOT lightweight concrete PIECES also being 'roasted' in those LOCAL HOT SPOTS.

BTW, I just read Guest's post re the fuel for Coach Lamps. He is correct, it is Acetylene fuel from Calcium Carbide reaction. I was mistaken in that example. My apologies. I have corrected my earlier post to remove that erroneous example. The 'white glowing' RE-RADIATING example of today's Camping Lanterns remains, though, as they use Hydrocarbon fuels not required to be produced by Calcium Carbide reaction with water to produce Acetylene on-the-spot......just as Guest says. Thanks Guest! I owe you one for the heads up (I was rushing and took the wrong example from my memory......bad!). The PRINCIPLE of MATERIALS 're-radiating' heat energy as 'white' light still remains as described, though.

Now Foxx, with the information on the fires, materials and impact damage, and high temperatures due to 'reverberating' RADIANT HEAT trapped between 'insulating' floors, ceilings and walls on those levels, are you saying that burning aluminium, wood carbon, crushed concrete etc, could NOT produce all these INTERMEDIATE 'dirty' and 'impure' BY-PRODUCT compounds, albeit in uncontrolled 'inefficient' manner/quantities?

Anyhow, YOU ASKED for SPECULATion as to what the UNIDENTIFIED 'glowing' cascades could contain. I speculated.

Now have YOU got any speculations regarding those 'cascades'?

If so, let's hear YOUR speculations. Thanks.

RC.
.
newton
i have a speculation. it's a thermite reaction weakening the corner. somebody planted a little too much on that spot. it wasn't supposed to be visible from the outside.

oh well, there's no accounting for chaos, eh, illuminati?

i have another theory. some boy scouts lost their way, and they were using coleman lamps there.

i like this from greening, 'you will need to make a slurry with drywall' to get the thermite reaction to take place.

how long would the water last in the supposed inferno?

the towers were truly mystical, magical things.

the official conspiracy theorists would have us believe you can throw a deck of cards in the air, and have them all land on their edges in the shape of a mickey mouse head, and then proceed to do a perfect domino chain collapse, landing in the shape of the mona lisa.
RealityCheck
QUOTE (Guest+Feb 27 2006, 03:16 PM)
QUOTE (Guest+Feb 27 2006, 02:44 PM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Feb 26 2006, 11:30 PM)
Now, as to the 'colour spectrum' presented by the burning/glowing embers/concrete dust etc. Tell me Foxx, are you old enough to remember those good old Calcium Carbide lamps used on coaches (today, you'd probably be more familiar with those nifty Camping Lanterns) which burn KEROSENE or sufficiently convenient, hot-burn fuels) to heat that Calcium Carbide (or other equivalently suitable) 're-radiator/mantle' material surrounding the flame; and how that Calcium Carbide GLOWED with a clean WHITE light?

All-around super-scientist, Huh?

This is NOT how Calcium Carbide lamps work! Calcium carbide is not the catalyst, it is the fuel. If you were such a great, knowledgable scientist, you would know that carbide lamps do not use any fuel besides the calcium carbide, and water with which it reacts to produce acetylene gas.

Where's the meat (table top fusion expert)?? How are we supposed to believe any of your BS?

This is ALL the evidence you need to know about RC! He LIES!


Hi Guest!

My sincere apologies and thanks to you. Sorry I didn't reply sooner, but I'm in Australia and was not logged on overnight (here)!

I just saw your post correcting a blunder of mine caused by rushing. You are perfectly correct regarding those Coach Lamps, and I have gone back and removed it as an example from my original post.

As you can see from the following excerpt from my latest post to Foxx, I have advised him of your correction and my editing the relevant post....

QUOTE (RealityCheck+Feb 27 2006, 05:51 PM)
.....
.......
BTW, I just read Guest's post re the fuel for Coach Lamps. He is correct, it is Acetylene fuel from Calcium Carbide reaction. I was mistaken in that example. My apologies. I have corrected my earlier post to remove that erroneous example. The 'white glowing' RE-RADIATING example of today's Camping Lanterns remains, though, as they use Hydrocarbon fuels not required to be produced by Calcium Carbide reaction with water to produce Acetylene on-the-spot......just as Guest says. Thanks Guest! I owe you one for the heads up (I was rushing and took the wrong example from my memory......bad!). The PRINCIPLE of  MATERIALS 're-radiating' heat energy as 'white' light still remains as described, though.
.......


Many thanks, Guest, for picking up on something which I would have felt terrible about if anyone was misled for long by my inexcusable blunder from memory. It's good to see that the 'peer review' is alive and well! Thanks again, Guest!

Your grateful friend in science: RC.
.
Guest
user posted image
RealityCheck
QUOTE (newton+Feb 27 2006, 06:06 PM)
i have a speculation.  it's a thermite reaction weakening the corner.  somebody planted a little too much on that spot.  it wasn't supposed to be visible from the outside.

oh well, there's no accounting for chaos, eh, illuminati?

i have another theory.  some boy scouts lost their way, and they were using coleman lamps there.

i like this from greening, 'you will need to make a slurry with drywall' to get the thermite reaction to take place.

how long would the water last in the supposed inferno?

the towers were truly mystical, magical things.

the official conspiracy theorists would have us believe you can throw a deck of cards in the air, and have them all land on their edges in the shape of a mickey mouse head, and then proceed to do a perfect domino chain collapse, landing in the shape of the mona lisa.


Hi newton!

What time of the day/night is it where you live?

Thermite planted there, heh? Must have been a LOT of thermite to react for so long during the hour of fire before collapse soon after that 'cascade' from that spot. Why was not that seen sooner? Any more speculation on it?

RC.
.
Foxx
Good morning kiddies from the gravity-driven collapse class.

Our lesson today is how to quell the rising tide of people who believe that somehow government agencies had a hand in the events of 9/11.

You might ask yourself how to best contribute to this fight against 'terrorism'.

Well, as you probably know there are thousands of forums, and many more internet websites which have been causing NIST and the neo-con government un-ending grief since 9/11.

You will be happy to know that 'WE' are currently devising legislation to allow the government to spy on these Fifth Column terrorists, and that Halliburton has received millions to build quiet 'retirement' lodgings for these troublesome terrorist (Al-CiaDuh) supporters.

QUOTE
BERKELEY, Calif. - Feb 6, 2006 - On Jan. 24, the Halliburton subsidiary KBR announced that it had been awarded by the Department of Homeland Security a $385 million contract to build detention centers in the United States. The purpose was to prepare for "an emergency influx of immigrants, or to support the rapid development of new programs" in the event of emergencies. What lessons can we learn from the history of detention centers of an earlier war?


http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=fifth+...nG=Search&meta=

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
BERKELEY, Calif. - Feb 6, 2006 - On Jan. 24, the Halliburton subsidiary KBR announced that it had been awarded by the Department of Homeland Security a $385 million contract to build detention centers in the United States. The purpose was to prepare for "an emergency influx of immigrants, or to support the rapid development of new programs" in the event of emergencies. What lessons can we learn from the history of detention centers of an earlier war?


http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=fifth+...nG=Search&meta=

“I stand by this President’s ability, inherent to being Commander in Chief, to find out about Fifth Column movements, and I don’t think you need a warrant to do that,” Graham added, volunteering to work with the administration to draft guidelines for how best to neutralize this alleged threat.


http://consortiumnews.com/2006/022106a.html

However, in the meantime these fifth columnists, are gaining public recognition and are even starting to convince highly intelligent people of their 'conspiracies'. This is becoming an alarming situation for the Fuhrer, and we must all play a part is disarming this growing 'army'.

How can I help, you ask?

Well, you can get out there and start confusing the issues with obfuscations and straw-man tactics. Use psychological ploys to play on their emotions. LIE and cheat if you need to --- AlQueda (AlCiaDuh) is at the very gates. This is NO time for dignity and honest discussion. You must get out and do your part to rid the world of this scum. Learn 'Debunkery' - it's a new course WE are teaching...

What is "debunkery?" Essentially it is the attempt to *debunk* (invalidate) new information and insight by substituting scient*istic* propaganda for the scient*ific* method.

Here are some tactics you can use...

QUOTE
Part 1: General Debunkery

<> Before commencing to debunk, prepare your equipment. Equipment needed: one armchair.

<> Put on the right face. Cultivate a condescending air that suggests that your personal opinions are backed by the full faith and credit of God. Employ vague, subjective, dismissive terms such as "ridiculous" or "trivial" in a manner that suggests they have the full force of scientific authority.

<> Portray science not as an open-ended process of discovery but as a holy war against unruly hordes of quackery- worshipping infidels. Since in war the ends justify the means, you may fudge, stretch or violate the scientific method, or even omit it entirely, in the name of defending the scientific method.

<> Keep your arguments as abstract and theoretical as possible. This will "send the message" that accepted theory overrides any actual evidence that might challenge it--and that therefore no such evidence is worth examining.

<> Reinforce the popular misconception that certain subjects are inherently unscientific. In other words, deliberately confuse the *process* of science with the *content* of science. (Someone may, of course, object that since science is a universal approach to truth-seeking it must be neutral to subject matter; hence, only the investigative *process* can be scientifically responsible or irresponsible. If that happens, dismiss such objections using a method employed successfully by generations of politicians: simply reassure everyone that "there is no contradiction here!")

<> Arrange to have your message echoed by persons of authority. The degree to which you can stretch the truth is directly proportional to the prestige of your mouthpiece.

<> Always refer to unorthodox statements as "claims," which are "touted," and to your own assertions as "facts," which are "stated."

<> Avoid examining the actual evidence. This allows you to say with impunity, "I have seen absolutely no evidence to support such ridiculous claims!" (Note that this technique has withstood the test of time, and dates back at least to the age of Galileo. By simply refusing to look through his telescope, the ecclesiastical authorities bought the Church over three centuries' worth of denial free and clear!)

<> If examining the evidence becomes unavoidable, report back that "there is nothing new here!" If confronted by a watertight body of evidence that has survived the most rigorous tests, simply dismiss it as being "too pat."

<> Equate the necessary skeptical component of science with *all* of science. Emphasize the narrow, stringent, rigorous and critical elements of science to the exclusion of intuition, inspiration, exploration and integration. If anyone objects, accuse them of viewing science in exclusively fuzzy, subjective or metaphysical terms.

<> Insist that the progress of science depends on explaining the unknown in terms of the known. In other words, science equals reductionism. You can apply the reductionist approach in any situation by discarding more and more and more evidence until what little is left can finally be explained entirely in terms of established knowledge.

<> Downplay the fact that free inquiry and legitimate disagreement are a normal part of science.

<> Make yourself available to media producers who seek "balanced reporting" of unorthodox views. However, agree to participate in only those presentations whose time constraints and a-priori bias preclude such luxuries as discussion, debate and cross-examination.

<> At every opportunity reinforce the notion that what is familiar is necessarily rational. The unfamiliar is therefore irrational, and consequently inadmissible as evidence.

<> State categorically that the unconventional may be dismissed as, at best, an honest misinterpretation of the conventional.

<> Characterize your opponents as "uncritical believers." Summarily dismiss the notion that debunkery itself betrays uncritical belief, albeit in the status quo.

<> Maintain that in investigations of unconventional phenomena, a single flaw invalidates the whole. In conventional contexts, however, you may sagely remind the world that, "after all, situations are complex and human beings are imperfect."

<> "Occam's Razor," or the "principle of parsimony," says the correct explanation of a mystery will usually involve the simplest fundamental principles. Insist, therefore, that the most familiar explanation is by definition the simplest! Imply strongly that Occam's Razor is not merely a philosophical rule of thumb but an immutable law.

<> Discourage any study of history that may reveal today's dogma as yesterday's heresy. Likewise, avoid discussing the many historical, philosophical and spiritual parallels between science and democracy.

<> Since the public tends to be unclear about the distinction between evidence and proof, do your best to help maintain this murkiness. If absolute proof is lacking, state categorically that "there is no evidence!"

<> If sufficient evidence has been presented to warrant further investigation of an unusual phenomenon, argue that "evidence alone proves nothing!" Ignore the fact that preliminary evidence is not supposed to prove *any*thing.

<> In any case, imply that proof precedes evidence. This will eliminate the possibility of initiating any meaningful process of investigation--particularly if no criteria of proof have yet been established for the phenomenon in question.

<> Insist that criteria of proof cannot possibly be established for phenomena that do not exist!

<> Although science is not supposed to tolerate vague or double standards, always insist that unconventional phenomena must be judged by a separate, yet ill-defined, set of scientific rules. Do this by declaring that "extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence"-- but take care never to define where the "ordinary" ends and the "extraordinary" begins. This will allow you to manufacture an infinitely receding evidential horizon; i.e., to define "extraordinary" evidence as that which lies just out of reach at any point in time.

<> In the same manner, insist on classes of evidence that are impossible to obtain. For example, declare that unidentified aerial phenomena may be considered real only if we can bring them into laboratories to strike them with hammers and analyze their physical properties. Disregard the accomplishments of the inferential sciences--astronomy, for example, which gets on just fine without bringing actual planets, stars, galaxies and black holes into its labs and striking them with hammers.

<> Practice debunkery-by-association. Lump together all phenomena popularly deemed paranormal and suggest that their proponents and researchers speak with a single voice. In this way you can indiscriminately drag material across disciplinary lines or from one case to another to support your views as needed. For example, if a claim having some superficial similarity to the one at hand has been (or is popularly assumed to have been) exposed as fraudulent, cite it as if it were an appropriate example. Then put on a gloating smile, lean back in your armchair and just say "I rest my case."

<> Use the word "imagination" as an epithet that applies only to seeing what's *not* there, and not to denying what *is* there.

<> If a significant number of people agree that they have observed something that violates the consensus reality, simply ascribe it to "mass hallucination." Avoid addressing the possibility that the consensus reality might itself constitute a mass hallucination.

<> Ridicule, ridicule, ridicule. It is far and away the single most chillingly effective weapon in the war against discovery and innovation. Ridicule has the unique power to make people of virtually any persuasion go completely unconscious in a twinkling. It fails to sway only those few who are of sufficiently independent mind not to buy into the kind of emotional consensus that ridicule provides.

<> By appropriate innuendo and example, imply that ridicule constitutes an essential feature of the scientific method that can raise the level of objectivity and dispassionateness with which any investigation is conducted.

<> If pressed about your novel interpretations of the scientific method, declare that "intellectual integrity is a subtle issue."

<> Imply that investigators of the unorthodox are zealots. Suggest that in order to investigate the existence of something one must first believe in it absolutely. Then demand that all such "true believers" know all the answers to their most puzzling questions in complete detail ahead of time. Convince people of your own sincerity by reassuring them that you yourself would "love to believe in these fantastic phenomena." Carefully sidestep the fact that science is not about believing or disbelieving, but about finding out.

<> Use "smoke and mirrors," i.e., obfuscation and illusion. Never forget that a slippery mixture of fact, opinion, innuendo, out-of-context information and outright lies will fool most of the people most of the time. As little as one part fact to ten parts B.S. will usually do the trick. (Some veteran debunkers use homeopathic dilutions of fact with remarkable success!) Cultivate the art of slipping back and forth between fact and fiction so undetectably that the flimsiest foundation of truth will always appear to firmly support your entire edifice of opinion.

<> Employ "TCP": Technically Correct Pseudo-refutation. Example: if someone remarks that all great truths began as blasphemies, respond immediately that not all blasphemies have become great truths. Because your response was technically correct, no one will notice that it did not really refute the original remark.

<> Trivialize the case by trivializing the entire field in question. Characterize the study of orthodox phenomena as deep and time-consuming, while deeming that of unorthodox phenomena so insubstantial as to demand nothing more than a scan of the tabloids. If pressed on this, simply say "but there's nothing there to study!" Characterize any serious investigator of the unorthodox as a "buff" or "freak," or as "self-styled"-- the media's favorite code-word for "bogus."

<> Remember that most people do not have sufficient time or expertise for careful discrimination, and tend to accept or reject the whole of an unfamiliar situation. So discredit the whole story by attempting to discredit *part* of the story. Here's how: a) take one element of a case completely out of context; cool.gif find something prosaic that hypothetically could explain it; c) declare that therefore that one element has been explained; d) call a press conference and announce to the world that the entire case has been explained!

<> Engage the services of a professional stage magician who can mimic the phenomenon in question; for example, ESP, psychokinesis or levitation. This will convince the public that the original claimants or witnesses to such phenomena must themselves have been (or been fooled by) talented stage magicians who hoaxed the original phenomenon in precisely the same way.

<> Find a prosaic phenomenon that, to the uninitiated, resembles the claimed phenomenon. Then suggest that the existence of the commonplace look-alike somehow forbids the existence of the genuine article. For example, imply that since people often see "faces" in rocks and clouds, the enigmatic Face on Mars must be a similar illusion and therefore cannot possibly be artificial.

<> When an unexplained phenomenon demonstrates evidence of intelligence (as in the case of the mysterious crop circles) focus exclusively on the mechanism that might have been wielded by the intelligence rather than the intelligence that might have wielded the mechanism. The more attention you devote to the mechanism, the more easily you can distract people from considering the possibility of non-ordinary intelligence.

<> Accuse investigators of unusual phenomena of believing in "invisible forces and extrasensory realities." If they should point out that the physical sciences have *always* dealt with invisible forces and extrasensory realities (gravity? electromagnetism? . . . ) respond with a condescending chuckle that this is "a naive interpretation of the facts."

<> Insist that western science is completely objective, and is based on no untestable assumptions, covert beliefs or ideological interests. If an unfamiliar or inexplicable phenomenon happens to be considred true and/or useful by a nonwestern or other traditional society, you may dismiss it out of hand as "ignorant misconception," "medieval superstition" or "fairy lore."

<> Label any poorly-understood phenomenon "occult," "fringe," "paranormal," "metaphysical," "mystical," "supernatural," or "new-age." This will get most mainstream scientists off the case immediately on purely emotional grounds. If you're lucky, this may delay any responsible investigation of such phenomena by decades or even centuries!

<> Ask questions that appear to contain generally-assumed knowledge that supports your views; for example, "why do no police officers, military pilots, air traffic controllers or psychiatrists report UFOs?" (If someone points out that they do, insist that those who do must be mentally unstable.)

<> Ask unanswerable questions based on arbitrary criteria of proof. For example, "if this claim were true, why haven't we seen it on TV?" or "in this or that scientific journal?" Never forget the mother of all such questions: "If UFOs are extraterrestrial, why haven't they landed on the White House lawn?"

<> Similarly, reinforce the popular fiction that our scientific knowledge is complete and finished. Do this by asserting that "if such-and-such were true, we would would already know about it!"

<> Remember that you can easily appear to refute anyone's claims by building "straw men" to demolish. One way to do this is to misquote them while preserving that convincing grain of truth; for example, by acting as if they have intended the extreme of any position they've taken. Another effective strategy with a long history of success is simply to mis- replicate their experiments--or to avoid replicating them at all on grounds that "to do so would be ridiculous or fruitless." To make the whole process even easier, respond not to their actual claims but to their claims as reported by the media, or as propagated in popular myth.

<> Insist that such-and-such unorthodox claim is not scientifically testable because no self-respecting grantmaking organization would fund such ridiculous tests.

<> Be selective. For example, if an unorthodox healing practice has failed to reverse a case of terminal illness you may deem it worthless--while taking care to avoid mentioning any of the shortcomings of conventional medicine.

<> Hold claimants responsible for the production values and editorial policies of any media or press that reports their claim. If an unusual or inexplicable event is reported in a sensationalized manner, hold this as proof that the event itself must have been without substance or worth.

<> When a witness or claimant states something in a manner that is scientifically imperfect, treat this as if it were not scientific at all. If the claimant is not a credentialed scientist, argue that his or her perceptions cannot possibly be objective.

<> If you're unable to attack the facts of the case, attack the participants--or the journalists who reported the case. *Ad- hominem* arguments, or personality attacks, are among the most powerful ways of swaying the public and avoiding the issue. For example, if investigators of the unorthodox have profited financially from activities connected with their research, accuse them of "profiting financially from activities connected with their research!" If their research, publishing, speaking tours and so forth, constitute their normal line of work or sole means of support, hold that fact as "conclusive proof that income is being realized from such activities!" If they have labored to achieve public recognition for their work, you may safely characterize them as "publicity seekers."

<> Fabricate supportive expertise as needed by quoting the opinions of those in fields popularly assumed to include the necessary knowledge. Astronomers, for example, may be trotted out as experts on the UFO question, although course credits in ufology have never been a prerequisite for a degree in astronomy.

<> Fabricate confessions. If a phenomenon stubbornly refuses to go away, set up a couple of colorful old geezers to claim they hoaxed it. The press and the public will always tend to view confessions as sincerely motivated, and will promptly abandon their critical faculties. After all, nobody wants to appear to lack compassion for self-confessed sinners.

<> Fabricate sources of disinformation. Claim that you've "found the person who started the rumor that such a phenomenon exists!"

<> Fabricate entire research projects. Declare that "these claims have been thoroughly discredited by the top experts in the field!" Do this whether or not such experts have ever actually studied the claims, or, for that matter, even exist.


http://members.aol.com/ddrasin/zen.html

---------------------

Now, if you still need help --- as some of you are too stupid to think for yourselves --- we have provided a cut & paste service which provides ready made pat answers to some of the questions you will be presented with. All you need to do is just keep cut & pasting these 'pat' answers, and you can make yourself look like you really know what you are talking about, and have done huge amounts of research into these topics. Now, if anyone calls you on any of these 'pat' answers, just become indignant, abusive, and arrogant...

{see the above appropriate section on the art of Debunking}

So to end the lesson today here is your homework...

http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/index.htm

"yes, Mr. Foxx... you have something to add ???"

"Yeah, hehehe ... I'm a little 'rushed' right now but I'll be back later to expose the lie of this photo...

User posted image

on this page

http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/fire

Stay tuned, kiddies"
.

Take a look at where all this 'science' is coming from that Schneibster keeps posting...simple copy-pastes... and when you challenge them on any, they quickly scurry away... or simply copy-paste the same nonsense again.

Real Conspiracy...

http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/conspiracy.htm

The Fireman Quotes...

http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/quotes.htm

The Perl Program...

http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/moltensteel.htm

Transformer Explosions...

http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/transformer.htm

Free Fall...

http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/freefall.htm

Did anyone ever really think that the Schneibster was intelligent enough to make all this up?


adoucette
I don't know Foxx,

That ref to the Perl Program has this lead in:

From a physics blogger:

Hmmm?

Did Schneibster get it from this site or did this site also realize that Schneibster's analysis was this intelligent?

Looking at the other quotes, I'm thinking we have a "chicken or egg" issue.

I wonder how we can we prove it one way or the other?

Hmmm?

Arthur
yesitdid
QUOTE
From what I have read about Thermobaric explosives they would be the demolition tool of choice if you were worried about comparisons to controlled demolition. They have been used by other militaries for years to implode structures. The noise and pressure wave would be much less detectable then high explosives. Computer programs can accurately calculate the blast effects. Thermobaric weapons are only good on soft targets so the bombs could be set of in the elevator shafts to destabilize the core after Termite cut the steel columns and truss supports. The core walls could shield the fireball of the initial blast. The secondary effect would implode the remaining structure. This device can create overpressures equal to a small nuclear weapon accounting for the energy to turn concrete into fine powder without detectable radiation.


This illustrates the sophistry that the CT crowd is willing to swallow in order to shoehorn any theory into the events of 9/11.

Here we are told that a thermobaric bomb would create overpressures enough to destabilize the steel core of the towers, to pulverize the concrete flooring BUT that the steel columns of the core and the gyprock walls of the core would be able to mask all of this from outside view.

The core columns were no closer together than the width of an elevator shaft. An elevator , even a small one is 8 feet wide. That means that the steel columns that were supposedly masking this explosions were at the very least 8 feet apart. The space between those columns was covered mostly by gyprock.

I have a very hard time picturing an explosion shattering concrete flooring being kept from shattering glass windows 50-60 feet away simply because a forest of steel columns and a shroud of gyprock is in the way. Of course there is also the fact that there were several hallways through the core on each floor as well.
gordon
The glowing material emptying out the northeast corner appears to be a metal. It doesn't fly about like embers from a textile fire, suggesting it was fairly dense. The globules appear to keep glowing as they fall which would be expected for a metal which have high heat capacity. Most likely it's aluminum. It appears to be orange hot, perhaps around 800-1000C. Molten steel would have appeared even brighter.

Pure aluminum melts at 660C and boils at 2519C, so molten pure aluminum can be anywhere between 660C and 2519C.



I agree with your reasons and what you say regarding it being a metal, but aluminium retains its characteristic silver colour when melted. It does not conform to the colour chart as other metals do. This is one of the reasons that it is difficult to weld.
We should also note that when spatter is given off when welding or during forging or other high temperature operations, the colour does not display the same white hot appearance of its molten or near molten parent for a long period of time. The action of the spatter in breaking up the mass into smaller pieces thus exposing a larger surface area to the cooling ambient temperature. The surface area quickly exhibits a colour indicating lower than molten temperatures. This effect is most obvious on a small scale with electric arc welding and spot welding robots come to mind. On a larger scale in foundries, for instance, the spatter can display further white flashes as pieces or globules collide with the floor [eg] and break up exposing the still white cores.


So the questions we must ask ourselves are where could the metal come from and what are the possible causes of its elevated temperature and its action?

Thermite or a thermite like substance has been proposed as an explanation of the presence of a molten metal, and the general appearance and movement of the metal would support the contention that it is undergoing some form of chemical reaction.
Further support for the theory would be the fact that the collapse was initiated at or around that point, and thermite would have the effect of inducing collapse at or around the point of action.

Can anyone suggest another possible metal?
Can anyone suggest another possible reaction to explain the evident temperatures?
Can anyone identify any other mechanical or chemical processes involved?
Can anyone produce any evidence or reasoning to refute the proposal or call any aspect into question?
Can anyone produce any corroborative evidence or reasoning?

Gordon

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