QUOTE
5. The government’s assertion that the Twin Towers of the World Trade Center
collapsed as a result of the impact of aircraft and of the subsequent fire is
physically impossible. The fall of the towers cannot be explained without the
hypothesis of controlled demolition of some form, possibly including
unconventional methods employing new physical principles.
collapsed as a result of the impact of aircraft and of the subsequent fire is
physically impossible. The fall of the towers cannot be explained without the
hypothesis of controlled demolition of some form, possibly including
unconventional methods employing new physical principles.
Cap'n, I canna rewrite the laws o' physics
Well maybe Scotty couldn't but frater says he can.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| 5. The government’s assertion that the Twin Towers of the World Trade Center collapsed as a result of the impact of aircraft and of the subsequent fire is physically impossible. The fall of the towers cannot be explained without the hypothesis of controlled demolition of some form, possibly including unconventional methods employing new physical principles. |
Cap'n, I canna rewrite the laws o' physics
Well maybe Scotty couldn't but frater says he can.
6. The government’s assertion that World Trade Center 7 collapsed at 5:20 PM EDT
on September 11 purely as a result of fire is physically impossible. The collapse
of WTC 7 is coherent with controlled demolition of the conventional type
,,,, but apparently only twice in one day and then the normal laws of physics have to apply again.
QUOTE yesitdid Feb 22 2006, 11:26 PM
But they didn't. The building was pulverized. If they had pancaked every 10 floors, fairly substantial segments of the steel framed structure would be intact post collapse.
You are fitting the graph data to your own (speculative) hypothesis, a scientific faux pas.
Are you trying to say if the pancaking occured every 10 floors, the other 90% of floors, without pancaking would result in a collapse time even near to that witnessed on 9-11?
It's safe to say that the pancake theory is mutually exclusive when viewed with the observed collapse times.
QUOTE
The janedoe graphs also show that if the floors pancaked every tenth floor that this would give a time equal to the actual collapse time.
But they didn't. The building was pulverized. If they had pancaked every 10 floors, fairly substantial segments of the steel framed structure would be intact post collapse.
You are fitting the graph data to your own (speculative) hypothesis, a scientific faux pas.
Are you trying to say if the pancaking occured every 10 floors, the other 90% of floors, without pancaking would result in a collapse time even near to that witnessed on 9-11?
It's safe to say that the pancake theory is mutually exclusive when viewed with the observed collapse times.
QUOTE (frater plecticus+Feb 22 2006, 11:39 PM)
QUOTE yesitdid Feb 22 2006, 11:26 PM
But they didn't. The building was pulverized. If they had pancaked every 10 floors, fairly substantial segments of the steel framed structure would be intact post collapse.
You are fitting the graph data to your own (speculative) hypothesis, a scientific faux pas.
Are you trying to say if the pancaking occured every 10 floors, the other 90% of floors, without pancaking would result in a collapse time even near to that witnessed on 9-11?
It's safe to say that the pancake theory is mutually exclusive when viewed with the observed collapse times.
Hi Frater!
Is it so difficult to envisage UNEVEN/VARIABLE 'pancaking' and CRUMBLING/SHATTERING on 'impact' during the progressive collapse? After all, we're talking TONS and TONS and TONS of 'mixmaster' projectile 'steel' beams' being thrown against BOTH the wall and core columns as well as the floors.
Does pancaking/shattering AT a 'collapse front' AND 'disintegrating' WITHIN the chaotic 'body' of the FOLLOWING debris 'plug' sound so outlandish to you?
Does the escaping air at cyclonic speeds throught the walls and down shafts during the collapse equate to 'gentle Zephyrs' to you?
PS: Are you by any chance in the Foxx group behind that 'suspect' server? You wouldn't by any chance be an 'al Qada' operative? Your political posts in a physics forum IS somewhat 'suspect', heh? Is Foxx's 'organisation' and server infrastructure part of an 'al Qada' CELL or cell support structure? Or is it just the MONEY making motive behind your and Foxx's and others of your group's 'spamming' this forum with political rants and accompanying 'links'? As I said early on here, I have suspected you and others from the start regarding professed motives. I can see that I may have been right about you so-called CTers from the start. That WOULD explain galdur, newton, cosmo et al in your group posting such drivel but NEVER FAILING to come up with a 'link' or two to some sites where you and your pals could be making money directly or indirectly. Sorry, but the possibility was obvious early on because of your reaction to ANYONE not willing to take your point of view about ANYTHING, now I'm reasonably convinced that the suspicion was right.
Prove me wrong by posting PHYSICS and NOT politics, heh mate? I don't care HOW WRONG that physics is, as long as it IS physics and not pseudo-science and garbage-in-garbage-out calculations/charts etc. Cheers Frater!
RC.
.
QUOTE
The janedoe graphs also show that if the floors pancaked every tenth floor that this would give a time equal to the actual collapse time.
But they didn't. The building was pulverized. If they had pancaked every 10 floors, fairly substantial segments of the steel framed structure would be intact post collapse.
You are fitting the graph data to your own (speculative) hypothesis, a scientific faux pas.
Are you trying to say if the pancaking occured every 10 floors, the other 90% of floors, without pancaking would result in a collapse time even near to that witnessed on 9-11?
It's safe to say that the pancake theory is mutually exclusive when viewed with the observed collapse times.
Hi Frater!
Is it so difficult to envisage UNEVEN/VARIABLE 'pancaking' and CRUMBLING/SHATTERING on 'impact' during the progressive collapse? After all, we're talking TONS and TONS and TONS of 'mixmaster' projectile 'steel' beams' being thrown against BOTH the wall and core columns as well as the floors.
Does pancaking/shattering AT a 'collapse front' AND 'disintegrating' WITHIN the chaotic 'body' of the FOLLOWING debris 'plug' sound so outlandish to you?
Does the escaping air at cyclonic speeds throught the walls and down shafts during the collapse equate to 'gentle Zephyrs' to you?
PS: Are you by any chance in the Foxx group behind that 'suspect' server? You wouldn't by any chance be an 'al Qada' operative? Your political posts in a physics forum IS somewhat 'suspect', heh? Is Foxx's 'organisation' and server infrastructure part of an 'al Qada' CELL or cell support structure? Or is it just the MONEY making motive behind your and Foxx's and others of your group's 'spamming' this forum with political rants and accompanying 'links'? As I said early on here, I have suspected you and others from the start regarding professed motives. I can see that I may have been right about you so-called CTers from the start. That WOULD explain galdur, newton, cosmo et al in your group posting such drivel but NEVER FAILING to come up with a 'link' or two to some sites where you and your pals could be making money directly or indirectly. Sorry, but the possibility was obvious early on because of your reaction to ANYONE not willing to take your point of view about ANYTHING, now I'm reasonably convinced that the suspicion was right.
Prove me wrong by posting PHYSICS and NOT politics, heh mate? I don't care HOW WRONG that physics is, as long as it IS physics and not pseudo-science and garbage-in-garbage-out calculations/charts etc. Cheers Frater!
RC.
.
QUOTE
by Disinformationist A
In NIST Final report, Section 6.10 Modeling Approach, they show how they burned TYPICAL office furnishings (i.e. cubicles, computers, papers, chairs and desks) and measured the temps.
On page 124, describing the test, they state that the "near ceiling temps varied between 800 C and 1,100 C."
In NIST Final report, Section 6.10 Modeling Approach, they show how they burned TYPICAL office furnishings (i.e. cubicles, computers, papers, chairs and desks) and measured the temps.
On page 124, describing the test, they state that the "near ceiling temps varied between 800 C and 1,100 C."
Think about it, dingbat... were the cubicles,etc - Near the Ceiling !!!??? They are refering to the air temps in the test environment - NOT the temperature of the furnishings. I don't think your 'misrepresenting' the NIST quote at all - You just don't understand the basic concepts being discussed.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| by Disinformationist A In NIST Final report, Section 6.10 Modeling Approach, they show how they burned TYPICAL office furnishings (i.e. cubicles, computers, papers, chairs and desks) and measured the temps. On page 124, describing the test, they state that the "near ceiling temps varied between 800 C and 1,100 C." |
Think about it, dingbat... were the cubicles,etc - Near the Ceiling !!!??? They are refering to the air temps in the test environment - NOT the temperature of the furnishings. I don't think your 'misrepresenting' the NIST quote at all - You just don't understand the basic concepts being discussed.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
by the original 'schneibster'
Simple, easy, and obvious, fauxie- all they need to do is follow the clues in your posts. Look at the response from the hardware. It's all right out there in public. Who the hell has $50K worth of hardware in front of their home 'Net connection? What's all that *** FOR, anyway? What are you doing with all that? There's no lookup to it, but you've got a static IP address. No public site behind it, and a web proxy and cache server that can handle millions of hits per day. Where's all the traffic coming from that you need all that hardware for, fauxie? Wanna tell me that? I bet you don't.
And there's no difference between the spam, and your posts on this thread; all you want is clicks on a web site. That's all you're about: MONEY.
Here, shcneiby-dooby-doo - let me help you out on this one.
First, please explain what the hell you are talking about when you say 'hardware in front of my net connection'.
My net connection is through Shaw cable. how the hell do i put 'hardware' in 'front' of my net connection?
There is no 'lookup' to it? please explain.
I have a static IP address - uhhh, yeah, I think so - doesn't everyone. how do you find that mysterious?
QUOTE
"No public site behind it, and a web proxy and cache server that can handle millions of hits per day."
BWaaaaa....hahahahahaha !!!!
mysteriouser... and mysteriouser...pffft.
It is obvious to me that you have made some blunder in your Pink Panther investigation.
Are you talking about the 'oceanmirage.homestead.com' address?
If so I have no domain registered for that address. It is just a caching area in my Homestead account that I use for posting pages like...
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/BZ_002.html
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/northwoods01.html
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/core_beams.html
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/NIST_c2_001_pg5.html
etc, etc, etc.
I use this corner of my Homestead account for caching pages from NIST and other photos for easy html recall, rather than having to load 10,000 pages of adobe documents each time i want to find a certain picture or page (some of which do not allow cut & paste abilities).
To capture those portions of the NIST documents (which for some reason they prefer to not allow me to cut & paste)...I use the screen-capture button on my keyboard, then copy/paste that 'screen capture' into my photo editing program (Corel Photo House) and crop the picture to just what is on the NIST page.
Once transferred to the 'oceanmirage section' of my Homestead account, I can then post the html image here, or in other forums easily, such as this...
Fig 3-7 b (referred to by adoucette)...
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/Fig7b.jpg

or... cache an entire page (such as page 124 adobe from document http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-5C.pdf ...
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/firetest.html
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| "No public site behind it, and a web proxy and cache server that can handle millions of hits per day." |
BWaaaaa....hahahahahaha !!!!
mysteriouser... and mysteriouser...pffft.
It is obvious to me that you have made some blunder in your Pink Panther investigation.
Are you talking about the 'oceanmirage.homestead.com' address?
If so I have no domain registered for that address. It is just a caching area in my Homestead account that I use for posting pages like...
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/BZ_002.html
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/northwoods01.html
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/core_beams.html
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/NIST_c2_001_pg5.html
etc, etc, etc.
I use this corner of my Homestead account for caching pages from NIST and other photos for easy html recall, rather than having to load 10,000 pages of adobe documents each time i want to find a certain picture or page (some of which do not allow cut & paste abilities).
To capture those portions of the NIST documents (which for some reason they prefer to not allow me to cut & paste)...I use the screen-capture button on my keyboard, then copy/paste that 'screen capture' into my photo editing program (Corel Photo House) and crop the picture to just what is on the NIST page.
Once transferred to the 'oceanmirage section' of my Homestead account, I can then post the html image here, or in other forums easily, such as this...
Fig 3-7 b (referred to by adoucette)...
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/Fig7b.jpg

or... cache an entire page (such as page 124 adobe from document http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-5C.pdf ...
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/firetest.html
by Schneibster
No public site behind it, and a web proxy and cache server that can handle millions of hits per day.
I thought you were a computer programmer there, Schneiby.
Let me guess what you are foolishly doing in trying to do your Inspector Clouseau impersonation.
Are you trying to truncate the addresses back to the domain?
If so, it is quite easy to find that there IS NO DOMAIN as "oceanmirage DOT homestead DOT com" domain...
http://lookup.ws/whois.php
The 'oceanmirage.homestead.com' pages are hosted at Homestead Technologies...
Registrant:
Homestead Technolgies
3375 EDISON WAY
MENLO PARK, CA 94025
US
Domain Name: HOMESTEAD.COM
Administrative Contact:
Homestead Technolgies Dom-Admin@HOMESTEAD-INC.COM
3375 EDISON WAY
MENLO PARK, CA 94025
US
999 999 9999 fax: 999 999 9999
Technical Contact:
Homestead.com Dom-Tech@HOMESTEAD-INC.COM
Homestead.com
3375 EDISON WAY
MENLO PARK, CA 94025-1811
US
650 549-3100 fax: - 650 364-7329
Record expires on 20-Jun-2009.
Record created on 21-Jun-1997.
Database last updated on 22-Feb-2006 18:52:50 EST.
Domain servers in listed order:
EENEY.HOMESTEAD.COM 209.157.71.10
MEENEY.HOMESTEAD.COM 209.157.71.137
Now...Of course, if you track the 'oceanmirage.homestead.com site to Homestead (which hosts literally millions of websites / domain names) you will find that THEY are capable of 'handling millions of hits' per day, but I have nothing to do with Homestead. I sure as hell, don't have any capacity to handle millions of hits per day.
I had to upgrade the bandwidth on my registered domain last year when I started getting over 500 hits a day. Even today... should I start receiving more than 2000 hits a day, it would shut my site down - which is precisely the reason I don't advertise my personal domain on forums such as this (populated by spammers like your last incarnation of 'XmGYtc)5FtiGY' spreading viagra spam).
It is ALSO another reason I don't put together a 9/11 website. These are VERY popular sites today, and I can't afford to invest the bandwidth to support thousands of visitors a day.
Next, I'd have to ask for 'donations' to help support the bandwidth requirements.
My actual registered domain name has utterly nothing to do with 9/11 issues, but deals with my personal business in the design & fabrication of reinforced composites...
...but carry on making a fool of yourself with your nonsensical allegations. I find it amusing to watch psychologically unstable people in action.
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 23 2006, 12:36 AM)
QUOTE
by Disinformationist A
In NIST Final report, Section 6.10 Modeling Approach, they show how they burned TYPICAL office furnishings (i.e. cubicles, computers, papers, chairs and desks) and measured the temps.
On page 124, describing the test, they state that the "near ceiling temps varied between 800 C and 1,100 C."
In NIST Final report, Section 6.10 Modeling Approach, they show how they burned TYPICAL office furnishings (i.e. cubicles, computers, papers, chairs and desks) and measured the temps.
On page 124, describing the test, they state that the "near ceiling temps varied between 800 C and 1,100 C."
Think about it, dingbat... were the cubicles,etc - Near the Ceiling !!!??? They are refering to the air temps in the test environment - NOT the temperature of the furnishings. I don't think your 'misrepresenting' the NIST quote at all - You just don't understand the basic concepts being discussed.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
And where were the trusses with their 'fireproofing' and 'panelling' knocked off? They were 'the ceilings' of the rooms on fire; just where the highest temperature combustion gases/air were to be found. Thanks for making that clear, Foxx! You've been a great help. Ta.
PS: And as far as I know, the columns also went from floor to ceiling, and any high-temp gases/air escaping would go past the points on those columns nearer ceiling height. Ta again.
RC.
.
QUOTE (frater plecticus+Feb 22 2006, 11:39 PM)
QUOTE yesitdid Feb 22 2006, 11:26 PM
But they didn't. The building was pulverized. If they had pancaked every 10 floors, fairly substantial segments of the steel framed structure would be intact post collapse.
You are fitting the graph data to your own (speculative) hypothesis, a scientific faux pas.
Are you trying to say if the pancaking occured every 10 floors, the other 90% of floors, without pancaking would result in a collapse time even near to that witnessed on 9-11?
It's safe to say that the pancake theory is mutually exclusive when viewed with the observed collapse times.
Didn't bother to look at the site did you frater?
But they didn't. The building was pulverized. If they had pancaked every 10 floors, fairly substantial segments of the steel framed structure would be intact post collapse.
You are fitting the graph data to your own (speculative) hypothesis, a scientific faux pas.
Are you trying to say if the pancaking occured every 10 floors, the other 90% of floors, without pancaking would result in a collapse time even near to that witnessed on 9-11?
It's safe to say that the pancake theory is mutually exclusive when viewed with the observed collapse times.
Didn't bother to look at the site did you frater?
Case 4: ‘Progressive Collapse’ at near free-fall speed

I am not 'fitting' the graph to anything. I am demonstrating that it does not fit what the author says it fits, the author's scientific faux pas!
The graphs are of a collapse that would have to have each collapseing segment(whether each floor is doing this as in the first graph, or every tenth floor as in the second graph) coming to a complete stop before the next segment collapses.
You agree that this is NOT what happened so you therefore must agree that these graphs do not represent anything that happened to the WTC towers on 9/11.
The author is plain incorrect!!!!!!!
QUOTE
The janedoe graphs also show that if the floors pancaked every tenth floor that this would give a time equal to the actual collapse time.
But they didn't. The building was pulverized. If they had pancaked every 10 floors, fairly substantial segments of the steel framed structure would be intact post collapse.
You are fitting the graph data to your own (speculative) hypothesis, a scientific faux pas.
Are you trying to say if the pancaking occured every 10 floors, the other 90% of floors, without pancaking would result in a collapse time even near to that witnessed on 9-11?
It's safe to say that the pancake theory is mutually exclusive when viewed with the observed collapse times.
Didn't bother to look at the site did you frater?
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| The janedoe graphs also show that if the floors pancaked every tenth floor that this would give a time equal to the actual collapse time. |
But they didn't. The building was pulverized. If they had pancaked every 10 floors, fairly substantial segments of the steel framed structure would be intact post collapse.
You are fitting the graph data to your own (speculative) hypothesis, a scientific faux pas.
Are you trying to say if the pancaking occured every 10 floors, the other 90% of floors, without pancaking would result in a collapse time even near to that witnessed on 9-11?
It's safe to say that the pancake theory is mutually exclusive when viewed with the observed collapse times.
Didn't bother to look at the site did you frater?
Case 4: ‘Progressive Collapse’ at near free-fall speed

I am not 'fitting' the graph to anything. I am demonstrating that it does not fit what the author says it fits, the author's scientific faux pas!
The graphs are of a collapse that would have to have each collapseing segment(whether each floor is doing this as in the first graph, or every tenth floor as in the second graph) coming to a complete stop before the next segment collapses.
You agree that this is NOT what happened so you therefore must agree that these graphs do not represent anything that happened to the WTC towers on 9/11.
The author is plain incorrect!!!!!!!
Fauxie lies again. And it's sooooooo easy to check. Sigh.
QUOTE (yesitdid+Feb 22 2006, 04:54 PM)
QUOTE (frater plecticus+Feb 22 2006, 11:39 PM)
QUOTE yesitdid Feb 22 2006, 11:26 PM
But they didn't. The building was pulverized. If they had pancaked every 10 floors, fairly substantial segments of the steel framed structure would be intact post collapse.
You are fitting the graph data to your own (speculative) hypothesis, a scientific faux pas.
Are you trying to say if the pancaking occured every 10 floors, the other 90% of floors, without pancaking would result in a collapse time even near to that witnessed on 9-11?
It's safe to say that the pancake theory is mutually exclusive when viewed with the observed collapse times.
Didn't bother to look at the site did you frater?
But they didn't. The building was pulverized. If they had pancaked every 10 floors, fairly substantial segments of the steel framed structure would be intact post collapse.
You are fitting the graph data to your own (speculative) hypothesis, a scientific faux pas.
Are you trying to say if the pancaking occured every 10 floors, the other 90% of floors, without pancaking would result in a collapse time even near to that witnessed on 9-11?
It's safe to say that the pancake theory is mutually exclusive when viewed with the observed collapse times.
Didn't bother to look at the site did you frater?
Case 4: ‘Progressive Collapse’ at near free-fall speed

I am not 'fitting' the graph to anything. I am demonstrating that it does not fit what the author says it fits, the author's scientific faux pas!
The graphs are of a collapse that would have to have each collapseing segment(whether each floor is doing this as in the first graph, or every tenth floor as in the second graph) coming to a complete stop before the next segment collapses.
You agree that this is NOT what happened so you therefore must agree that these graphs do not represent anything that happened to the WTC towers on 9/11.
The author is plain incorrect!!!!!!!
From what I understand, the author is an engineering professor .You can ask her questions at:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...dress=125x49321
QUOTE
The janedoe graphs also show that if the floors pancaked every tenth floor that this would give a time equal to the actual collapse time.
But they didn't. The building was pulverized. If they had pancaked every 10 floors, fairly substantial segments of the steel framed structure would be intact post collapse.
You are fitting the graph data to your own (speculative) hypothesis, a scientific faux pas.
Are you trying to say if the pancaking occured every 10 floors, the other 90% of floors, without pancaking would result in a collapse time even near to that witnessed on 9-11?
It's safe to say that the pancake theory is mutually exclusive when viewed with the observed collapse times.
Didn't bother to look at the site did you frater?
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| The janedoe graphs also show that if the floors pancaked every tenth floor that this would give a time equal to the actual collapse time. |
But they didn't. The building was pulverized. If they had pancaked every 10 floors, fairly substantial segments of the steel framed structure would be intact post collapse.
You are fitting the graph data to your own (speculative) hypothesis, a scientific faux pas.
Are you trying to say if the pancaking occured every 10 floors, the other 90% of floors, without pancaking would result in a collapse time even near to that witnessed on 9-11?
It's safe to say that the pancake theory is mutually exclusive when viewed with the observed collapse times.
Didn't bother to look at the site did you frater?
Case 4: ‘Progressive Collapse’ at near free-fall speed

I am not 'fitting' the graph to anything. I am demonstrating that it does not fit what the author says it fits, the author's scientific faux pas!
The graphs are of a collapse that would have to have each collapseing segment(whether each floor is doing this as in the first graph, or every tenth floor as in the second graph) coming to a complete stop before the next segment collapses.
You agree that this is NOT what happened so you therefore must agree that these graphs do not represent anything that happened to the WTC towers on 9/11.
The author is plain incorrect!!!!!!!
From what I understand, the author is an engineering professor .You can ask her questions at:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...dress=125x49321
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Feb 23 2006, 02:01 AM)
QUOTE (yesitdid+Feb 22 2006, 04:54 PM)
QUOTE (frater plecticus+Feb 22 2006, 11:39 PM)
QUOTE yesitdid Feb 22 2006, 11:26 PM
But they didn't. The building was pulverized. If they had pancaked every 10 floors, fairly substantial segments of the steel framed structure would be intact post collapse.
You are fitting the graph data to your own (speculative) hypothesis, a scientific faux pas.
Are you trying to say if the pancaking occured every 10 floors, the other 90% of floors, without pancaking would result in a collapse time even near to that witnessed on 9-11?
It's safe to say that the pancake theory is mutually exclusive when viewed with the observed collapse times.
Didn't bother to look at the site did you frater?
But they didn't. The building was pulverized. If they had pancaked every 10 floors, fairly substantial segments of the steel framed structure would be intact post collapse.
You are fitting the graph data to your own (speculative) hypothesis, a scientific faux pas.
Are you trying to say if the pancaking occured every 10 floors, the other 90% of floors, without pancaking would result in a collapse time even near to that witnessed on 9-11?
It's safe to say that the pancake theory is mutually exclusive when viewed with the observed collapse times.
Didn't bother to look at the site did you frater?
Case 4: ‘Progressive Collapse’ at near free-fall speed

I am not 'fitting' the graph to anything. I am demonstrating that it does not fit what the author says it fits, the author's scientific faux pas!
The graphs are of a collapse that would have to have each collapseing segment(whether each floor is doing this as in the first graph, or every tenth floor as in the second graph) coming to a complete stop before the next segment collapses.
You agree that this is NOT what happened so you therefore must agree that these graphs do not represent anything that happened to the WTC towers on 9/11.
The author is plain incorrect!!!!!!!
From what I understand, the author is an engineering professor .You can ask her questions at:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...dress=125x49321
More moneymaking links for the suckers to click on to increase your traffic?
And before you shoot at Schneibster...this is not he. But no doubt you will accuse me of being him. Such is the mind of the CTer/scam-artist that you think everyone is as dishonest as you.
Think about it, dingbat... were the cubicles,etc - Near the Ceiling !!!??? They are refering to the air temps in the test environment - NOT the temperature of the furnishings. I don't think your 'misrepresenting' the NIST quote at all - You just don't understand the basic concepts being discussed.
Foxx
I'VE NEVER BEEN TALKING ABOUT THE TEMPERATURES THAT THE OFFICE FURNITURE GOT TO.
Why would anyone CARE what temperature the chairs and file cabinet were???
I have been talking about (and have been for PAGES and PAGES) the temperature PRODUCED by the burning of typical office furniture/cubicles.
As NIST said, the temps reached 1,100 C.
OF COURSE the highest temps were NEAR THE CIELING.
Where ELSE would you expect the HIGHEST TEMPS????
Arthur
Ehhh??? I don't see that at all. The blue ball (110) has not reached the level of the red ball, before the red ball starts to fall. The red ball starts to fall 2.4 seconds before the blue ball reaches that height. Remember that these times are all based upon falling through a vacuum, certainly NOT comparable to buildings falling through air resistance... (or heaven forbid some REAL resistance like Those 47 Massive Interior Columns).
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/fall01.jpg

This diagram does NOT tell us HOW the buildings SHOULD HAVE fallen... (only how they should have fallen IF they were in a vacuum) - and we can all at least agree on that --- they weren't IN a vacuum.
It may be that he is 'off' by a few seconds in this diagram, but that is irrelevant. So just adjust the diagram to reflect the extra seconds you think it MAY have been... and it will still tell essentially the same story. The buildings fell as if they faced very little to NO resistance above air resistance.
Ehhh??? I don't see that at all. The blue ball (110) has not reached the level of the red ball, before the red ball starts to fall. The red ball starts to fall 2.4 seconds before the blue ball reaches that height. Remember that these times are all based upon falling through a vacuum, certainly NOT comparable to buildings falling through air resistance... (or heaven forbid some REAL resistance like Those 47 Massive Interior Columns).
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/fall01.jpg

This diagram does NOT tell us HOW the buildings SHOULD HAVE fallen... (only how they should have fallen IF they were in a vacuum) - and we can all at least agree on that --- they weren't IN a vacuum.
It may be that he is 'off' by a few seconds in this diagram, but that is irrelevant. So just adjust the diagram to reflect the extra seconds you think it MAY have been... and it will still tell essentially the same story. The buildings fell as if they faced very little to NO resistance above air resistance.
by the Schneibster
Fauxie lies again. And it's sooooooo easy to check. Sigh.
{the above should be said in the Scooby-Dooby-Doo voice}
I expected as much... NOTHING

Ehhh??? I don't see that at all. The blue ball (110) has not reached the level of the red ball, before the red ball starts to fall. The red ball starts to fall 2.4 seconds before the blue ball reaches that height. Remember that these times are all based upon falling through a vacuum, certainly NOT comparable to buildings falling through air resistance... (or heaven forbid some REAL resistance like Those 47 Massive Interior Columns).
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/fall01.jpg

This diagram does NOT tell us HOW the buildings SHOULD HAVE fallen... (only how they should have fallen IF they were in a vacuum) - and we can all at least agree on that --- they weren't IN a vacuum.
It may be that he is 'off' by a few seconds in this diagram, but that is irrelevant. So just adjust the diagram to reflect the extra seconds you think it MAY have been... and it will still tell essentially the same story. The buildings fell as if they faced very little to NO resistance above air resistance.
Ehhh??? I don't see that at all. The blue ball (110) has not reached the level of the red ball, before the red ball starts to fall. The red ball starts to fall 2.4 seconds before the blue ball reaches that height. Remember that these times are all based upon falling through a vacuum, certainly NOT comparable to buildings falling through air resistance... (or heaven forbid some REAL resistance like Those 47 Massive Interior Columns).
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/fall01.jpg

This diagram does NOT tell us HOW the buildings SHOULD HAVE fallen... (only how they should have fallen IF they were in a vacuum) - and we can all at least agree on that --- they weren't IN a vacuum.
It may be that he is 'off' by a few seconds in this diagram, but that is irrelevant. So just adjust the diagram to reflect the extra seconds you think it MAY have been... and it will still tell essentially the same story. The buildings fell as if they faced very little to NO resistance above air resistance.
by the Schneibster
Fauxie lies again. And it's sooooooo easy to check. Sigh.
{the above should be said in the Scooby-Dooby-Doo voice}
I expected as much... NOTHING

Why would a floor be falling a full 2.4 seconds before the upper collapse mass hits and collects it?
justwantinfo
Ehhh??? I don't see that at all. The blue ball (110) has not reached the level of the red ball, before the red ball starts to fall. The red ball starts to fall 2.4 seconds before the blue ball reaches that height. Remember that these times are all based upon falling through a vacuum, certainly NOT comparable to buildings falling through air resistance... (or heaven forbid some REAL resistance like Those 47 Massive Interior Columns).
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/fall01.jpg

This diagram does NOT tell us HOW the buildings SHOULD HAVE fallen... (only how they should have fallen IF they were in a vacuum) - and we can all at least agree on that --- they weren't IN a vacuum.
It may be that he is 'off' by a few seconds in this diagram, but that is irrelevant. So just adjust the diagram to reflect the extra seconds you think it MAY have been... and it will still tell essentially the same story. The buildings fell as if they faced very little to NO resistance above air resistance.
Ehhh??? I don't see that at all. The blue ball (110) has not reached the level of the red ball, before the red ball starts to fall. The red ball starts to fall 2.4 seconds before the blue ball reaches that height. Remember that these times are all based upon falling through a vacuum, certainly NOT comparable to buildings falling through air resistance... (or heaven forbid some REAL resistance like Those 47 Massive Interior Columns).
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/fall01.jpg

This diagram does NOT tell us HOW the buildings SHOULD HAVE fallen... (only how they should have fallen IF they were in a vacuum) - and we can all at least agree on that --- they weren't IN a vacuum.
It may be that he is 'off' by a few seconds in this diagram, but that is irrelevant. So just adjust the diagram to reflect the extra seconds you think it MAY have been... and it will still tell essentially the same story. The buildings fell as if they faced very little to NO resistance above air resistance.
by the Schneibster
Fauxie lies again. And it's sooooooo easy to check. Sigh.
{the above should be said in the Scooby-Dooby-Doo voice}
I expected as much... NOTHING

Why would a floor be falling a full 2.4 seconds before the upper collapse mass hits and collects it?
justwantinfo
Typical demolition practices.
You take out the paths of resistance BEFORE they are met.
If done in proper sequential order the above falling mass will face little to NO resistance from the already compromised supporting structure. This is NOT rocket-science, (or quantum physics) we are discussing here...
just SIMPLE BASIC PHYSICS which are clearly demonstrated in the above posted graphs.
Think about it, dingbat... were the cubicles,etc - Near the Ceiling !!!??? They are refering to the air temps in the test environment - NOT the temperature of the furnishings. I don't think your 'misrepresenting' the NIST quote at all - You just don't understand the basic concepts being discussed.
Foxx
I'VE NEVER BEEN TALKING ABOUT THE TEMPERATURES THAT THE OFFICE FURNITURE GOT TO.
Why would anyone CARE what temperature the chairs and file cabinet were???
I have been talking about (and have been for PAGES and PAGES) the temperature PRODUCED by the burning of typical office furniture/cubicles.
As NIST said, the temps reached 1,100 C.
OF COURSE the highest temps were NEAR THE CIELING.
Where ELSE would you expect the HIGHEST TEMPS????
Arthur
Faux thinks hes a master at diversion. If the argument shifts to a lie you never said, he doesn't have to address the fact that tests have replicated the environment and shown the mechanisms of failure which could have taken place. An old trick no doubt learned on one of his con-man tutorials hes so proud of linking to.
Ehhh??? I don't see that at all. The blue ball (110) has not reached the level of the red ball, before the red ball starts to fall. The red ball starts to fall 2.4 seconds before the blue ball reaches that height. Remember that these times are all based upon falling through a vacuum, certainly NOT comparable to buildings falling through air resistance... (or heaven forbid some REAL resistance like Those 47 Massive Interior Columns).
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/fall01.jpg

This diagram does NOT tell us HOW the buildings SHOULD HAVE fallen... (only how they should have fallen IF they were in a vacuum) - and we can all at least agree on that --- they weren't IN a vacuum.
It may be that he is 'off' by a few seconds in this diagram, but that is irrelevant. So just adjust the diagram to reflect the extra seconds you think it MAY have been... and it will still tell essentially the same story. The buildings fell as if they faced very little to NO resistance above air resistance.
Ehhh??? I don't see that at all. The blue ball (110) has not reached the level of the red ball, before the red ball starts to fall. The red ball starts to fall 2.4 seconds before the blue ball reaches that height. Remember that these times are all based upon falling through a vacuum, certainly NOT comparable to buildings falling through air resistance... (or heaven forbid some REAL resistance like Those 47 Massive Interior Columns).
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/fall01.jpg

This diagram does NOT tell us HOW the buildings SHOULD HAVE fallen... (only how they should have fallen IF they were in a vacuum) - and we can all at least agree on that --- they weren't IN a vacuum.
It may be that he is 'off' by a few seconds in this diagram, but that is irrelevant. So just adjust the diagram to reflect the extra seconds you think it MAY have been... and it will still tell essentially the same story. The buildings fell as if they faced very little to NO resistance above air resistance.
by the Schneibster
Fauxie lies again. And it's sooooooo easy to check. Sigh.
{the above should be said in the Scooby-Dooby-Doo voice}
I expected as much... NOTHING

Why would a floor be falling a full 2.4 seconds before the upper collapse mass hits and collects it?
justwantinfo
If the graph is to be taken as per free fall in vacuum assumptions, then the only relevant 'ball would be the blue ball. This shows 8.something seconds.
How many seconds was the actual observed for real time of the top to bottom collapse on the day?
Would that difference represent the delay caused by the collapse process meeting some resistence, albeit ever-diminishing resistence because of cumulative increase in mass/impulse force of falling mass---but some resistence nonetheless?
QUOTE
The janedoe graphs also show that if the floors pancaked every tenth floor that this would give a time equal to the actual collapse time.
But they didn't. The building was pulverized. If they had pancaked every 10 floors, fairly substantial segments of the steel framed structure would be intact post collapse.
You are fitting the graph data to your own (speculative) hypothesis, a scientific faux pas.
Are you trying to say if the pancaking occured every 10 floors, the other 90% of floors, without pancaking would result in a collapse time even near to that witnessed on 9-11?
It's safe to say that the pancake theory is mutually exclusive when viewed with the observed collapse times.
Didn't bother to look at the site did you frater?
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| The janedoe graphs also show that if the floors pancaked every tenth floor that this would give a time equal to the actual collapse time. |
But they didn't. The building was pulverized. If they had pancaked every 10 floors, fairly substantial segments of the steel framed structure would be intact post collapse.
You are fitting the graph data to your own (speculative) hypothesis, a scientific faux pas.
Are you trying to say if the pancaking occured every 10 floors, the other 90% of floors, without pancaking would result in a collapse time even near to that witnessed on 9-11?
It's safe to say that the pancake theory is mutually exclusive when viewed with the observed collapse times.
Didn't bother to look at the site did you frater?
Case 4: ‘Progressive Collapse’ at near free-fall speed

I am not 'fitting' the graph to anything. I am demonstrating that it does not fit what the author says it fits, the author's scientific faux pas!
The graphs are of a collapse that would have to have each collapseing segment(whether each floor is doing this as in the first graph, or every tenth floor as in the second graph) coming to a complete stop before the next segment collapses.
You agree that this is NOT what happened so you therefore must agree that these graphs do not represent anything that happened to the WTC towers on 9/11.
The author is plain incorrect!!!!!!!
From what I understand, the author is an engineering professor .You can ask her questions at:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...dress=125x49321
More moneymaking links for the suckers to click on to increase your traffic?
And before you shoot at Schneibster...this is not he. But no doubt you will accuse me of being him. Such is the mind of the CTer/scam-artist that you think everyone is as dishonest as you.
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 22 2006, 08:36 PM)
QUOTE
by Disinformationist A
In NIST Final report, Section 6.10 Modeling Approach, they show how they burned TYPICAL office furnishings (i.e. cubicles, computers, papers, chairs and desks) and measured the temps.
On page 124, describing the test, they state that the "near ceiling temps varied between 800 C and 1,100 C."
In NIST Final report, Section 6.10 Modeling Approach, they show how they burned TYPICAL office furnishings (i.e. cubicles, computers, papers, chairs and desks) and measured the temps.
On page 124, describing the test, they state that the "near ceiling temps varied between 800 C and 1,100 C."
Think about it, dingbat... were the cubicles,etc - Near the Ceiling !!!??? They are refering to the air temps in the test environment - NOT the temperature of the furnishings. I don't think your 'misrepresenting' the NIST quote at all - You just don't understand the basic concepts being discussed.
Foxx
I'VE NEVER BEEN TALKING ABOUT THE TEMPERATURES THAT THE OFFICE FURNITURE GOT TO.
Why would anyone CARE what temperature the chairs and file cabinet were???
I have been talking about (and have been for PAGES and PAGES) the temperature PRODUCED by the burning of typical office furniture/cubicles.
As NIST said, the temps reached 1,100 C.
OF COURSE the highest temps were NEAR THE CIELING.
Where ELSE would you expect the HIGHEST TEMPS????
Arthur
QUOTE
originally posted by yesitdid
The graphs are of a collapse that would have to have each collapseing segment(whether each floor is doing this as in the first graph, or every tenth floor as in the second graph) coming to a complete stop before the next segment collapses.
The graphs are of a collapse that would have to have each collapseing segment(whether each floor is doing this as in the first graph, or every tenth floor as in the second graph) coming to a complete stop before the next segment collapses.
Ehhh??? I don't see that at all. The blue ball (110) has not reached the level of the red ball, before the red ball starts to fall. The red ball starts to fall 2.4 seconds before the blue ball reaches that height. Remember that these times are all based upon falling through a vacuum, certainly NOT comparable to buildings falling through air resistance... (or heaven forbid some REAL resistance like Those 47 Massive Interior Columns).
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/fall01.jpg

This diagram does NOT tell us HOW the buildings SHOULD HAVE fallen... (only how they should have fallen IF they were in a vacuum) - and we can all at least agree on that --- they weren't IN a vacuum.
It may be that he is 'off' by a few seconds in this diagram, but that is irrelevant. So just adjust the diagram to reflect the extra seconds you think it MAY have been... and it will still tell essentially the same story. The buildings fell as if they faced very little to NO resistance above air resistance.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| originally posted by yesitdid The graphs are of a collapse that would have to have each collapseing segment(whether each floor is doing this as in the first graph, or every tenth floor as in the second graph) coming to a complete stop before the next segment collapses. |
Ehhh??? I don't see that at all. The blue ball (110) has not reached the level of the red ball, before the red ball starts to fall. The red ball starts to fall 2.4 seconds before the blue ball reaches that height. Remember that these times are all based upon falling through a vacuum, certainly NOT comparable to buildings falling through air resistance... (or heaven forbid some REAL resistance like Those 47 Massive Interior Columns).
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/fall01.jpg

This diagram does NOT tell us HOW the buildings SHOULD HAVE fallen... (only how they should have fallen IF they were in a vacuum) - and we can all at least agree on that --- they weren't IN a vacuum.
It may be that he is 'off' by a few seconds in this diagram, but that is irrelevant. So just adjust the diagram to reflect the extra seconds you think it MAY have been... and it will still tell essentially the same story. The buildings fell as if they faced very little to NO resistance above air resistance.
by the Schneibster
Fauxie lies again. And it's sooooooo easy to check. Sigh.
{the above should be said in the Scooby-Dooby-Doo voice}
I expected as much... NOTHING
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 23 2006, 02:33 AM)
QUOTE
originally posted by yesitdid
The graphs are of a collapse that would have to have each collapseing segment(whether each floor is doing this as in the first graph, or every tenth floor as in the second graph) coming to a complete stop before the next segment collapses.
The graphs are of a collapse that would have to have each collapseing segment(whether each floor is doing this as in the first graph, or every tenth floor as in the second graph) coming to a complete stop before the next segment collapses.
Ehhh??? I don't see that at all. The blue ball (110) has not reached the level of the red ball, before the red ball starts to fall. The red ball starts to fall 2.4 seconds before the blue ball reaches that height. Remember that these times are all based upon falling through a vacuum, certainly NOT comparable to buildings falling through air resistance... (or heaven forbid some REAL resistance like Those 47 Massive Interior Columns).
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/fall01.jpg

This diagram does NOT tell us HOW the buildings SHOULD HAVE fallen... (only how they should have fallen IF they were in a vacuum) - and we can all at least agree on that --- they weren't IN a vacuum.
It may be that he is 'off' by a few seconds in this diagram, but that is irrelevant. So just adjust the diagram to reflect the extra seconds you think it MAY have been... and it will still tell essentially the same story. The buildings fell as if they faced very little to NO resistance above air resistance.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| originally posted by yesitdid The graphs are of a collapse that would have to have each collapseing segment(whether each floor is doing this as in the first graph, or every tenth floor as in the second graph) coming to a complete stop before the next segment collapses. |
Ehhh??? I don't see that at all. The blue ball (110) has not reached the level of the red ball, before the red ball starts to fall. The red ball starts to fall 2.4 seconds before the blue ball reaches that height. Remember that these times are all based upon falling through a vacuum, certainly NOT comparable to buildings falling through air resistance... (or heaven forbid some REAL resistance like Those 47 Massive Interior Columns).
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/fall01.jpg

This diagram does NOT tell us HOW the buildings SHOULD HAVE fallen... (only how they should have fallen IF they were in a vacuum) - and we can all at least agree on that --- they weren't IN a vacuum.
It may be that he is 'off' by a few seconds in this diagram, but that is irrelevant. So just adjust the diagram to reflect the extra seconds you think it MAY have been... and it will still tell essentially the same story. The buildings fell as if they faced very little to NO resistance above air resistance.
by the Schneibster
Fauxie lies again. And it's sooooooo easy to check. Sigh.
{the above should be said in the Scooby-Dooby-Doo voice}
I expected as much... NOTHING
Why would a floor be falling a full 2.4 seconds before the upper collapse mass hits and collects it?
justwantinfo
Fauxie, maybe you forgot the rules here: no personal revelations. I think anybody with sufficient gumption is capable of figuring out where your personal site is, and I think that anybody is capable of evaluating your equipment on the basis of its responses. I don't think there's any question as to the brand and model of the equipment, being as how it prints it out. I don't think there's any need for me to tell people that they can google that brand and model and find out who made it and how much it costs. And I think anybody who knows anything about hardware is going to quickly become aware, as I did, that there is absolutely no purpose to placing hardware of that type in that location.
I have pretty good confidence that I know what you're up to, and I think it's about the slimiest thing I've come across in a month of Sundays. A spammer. What a lowlife scumbag you are, Fauxie. I suppose you could become a pimp of twelve-year-old boys and be considered worse, but I can't think of much else that would be lower.
I have pretty good confidence that I know what you're up to, and I think it's about the slimiest thing I've come across in a month of Sundays. A spammer. What a lowlife scumbag you are, Fauxie. I suppose you could become a pimp of twelve-year-old boys and be considered worse, but I can't think of much else that would be lower.
QUOTE (justwantinfo+Feb 23 2006, 03:00 AM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 23 2006, 02:33 AM)
QUOTE
originally posted by yesitdid
The graphs are of a collapse that would have to have each collapseing segment(whether each floor is doing this as in the first graph, or every tenth floor as in the second graph) coming to a complete stop before the next segment collapses.
The graphs are of a collapse that would have to have each collapseing segment(whether each floor is doing this as in the first graph, or every tenth floor as in the second graph) coming to a complete stop before the next segment collapses.
Ehhh??? I don't see that at all. The blue ball (110) has not reached the level of the red ball, before the red ball starts to fall. The red ball starts to fall 2.4 seconds before the blue ball reaches that height. Remember that these times are all based upon falling through a vacuum, certainly NOT comparable to buildings falling through air resistance... (or heaven forbid some REAL resistance like Those 47 Massive Interior Columns).
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/fall01.jpg

This diagram does NOT tell us HOW the buildings SHOULD HAVE fallen... (only how they should have fallen IF they were in a vacuum) - and we can all at least agree on that --- they weren't IN a vacuum.
It may be that he is 'off' by a few seconds in this diagram, but that is irrelevant. So just adjust the diagram to reflect the extra seconds you think it MAY have been... and it will still tell essentially the same story. The buildings fell as if they faced very little to NO resistance above air resistance.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| originally posted by yesitdid The graphs are of a collapse that would have to have each collapseing segment(whether each floor is doing this as in the first graph, or every tenth floor as in the second graph) coming to a complete stop before the next segment collapses. |
Ehhh??? I don't see that at all. The blue ball (110) has not reached the level of the red ball, before the red ball starts to fall. The red ball starts to fall 2.4 seconds before the blue ball reaches that height. Remember that these times are all based upon falling through a vacuum, certainly NOT comparable to buildings falling through air resistance... (or heaven forbid some REAL resistance like Those 47 Massive Interior Columns).
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/fall01.jpg

This diagram does NOT tell us HOW the buildings SHOULD HAVE fallen... (only how they should have fallen IF they were in a vacuum) - and we can all at least agree on that --- they weren't IN a vacuum.
It may be that he is 'off' by a few seconds in this diagram, but that is irrelevant. So just adjust the diagram to reflect the extra seconds you think it MAY have been... and it will still tell essentially the same story. The buildings fell as if they faced very little to NO resistance above air resistance.
by the Schneibster
Fauxie lies again. And it's sooooooo easy to check. Sigh.
{the above should be said in the Scooby-Dooby-Doo voice}
I expected as much... NOTHING
Why would a floor be falling a full 2.4 seconds before the upper collapse mass hits and collects it?
justwantinfo
Typical demolition practices.
You take out the paths of resistance BEFORE they are met.
If done in proper sequential order the above falling mass will face little to NO resistance from the already compromised supporting structure. This is NOT rocket-science, (or quantum physics) we are discussing here...
just SIMPLE BASIC PHYSICS which are clearly demonstrated in the above posted graphs.
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 23 2006, 02:30 AM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 22 2006, 08:36 PM)
QUOTE
by Disinformationist A
In NIST Final report, Section 6.10 Modeling Approach, they show how they burned TYPICAL office furnishings (i.e. cubicles, computers, papers, chairs and desks) and measured the temps.
On page 124, describing the test, they state that the "near ceiling temps varied between 800 C and 1,100 C."
In NIST Final report, Section 6.10 Modeling Approach, they show how they burned TYPICAL office furnishings (i.e. cubicles, computers, papers, chairs and desks) and measured the temps.
On page 124, describing the test, they state that the "near ceiling temps varied between 800 C and 1,100 C."
Think about it, dingbat... were the cubicles,etc - Near the Ceiling !!!??? They are refering to the air temps in the test environment - NOT the temperature of the furnishings. I don't think your 'misrepresenting' the NIST quote at all - You just don't understand the basic concepts being discussed.
Foxx
I'VE NEVER BEEN TALKING ABOUT THE TEMPERATURES THAT THE OFFICE FURNITURE GOT TO.
Why would anyone CARE what temperature the chairs and file cabinet were???
I have been talking about (and have been for PAGES and PAGES) the temperature PRODUCED by the burning of typical office furniture/cubicles.
As NIST said, the temps reached 1,100 C.
OF COURSE the highest temps were NEAR THE CIELING.
Where ELSE would you expect the HIGHEST TEMPS????
Arthur
Faux thinks hes a master at diversion. If the argument shifts to a lie you never said, he doesn't have to address the fact that tests have replicated the environment and shown the mechanisms of failure which could have taken place. An old trick no doubt learned on one of his con-man tutorials hes so proud of linking to.
QUOTE (justwantinfo+Feb 23 2006, 03:00 AM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 23 2006, 02:33 AM)
QUOTE
originally posted by yesitdid
The graphs are of a collapse that would have to have each collapseing segment(whether each floor is doing this as in the first graph, or every tenth floor as in the second graph) coming to a complete stop before the next segment collapses.
The graphs are of a collapse that would have to have each collapseing segment(whether each floor is doing this as in the first graph, or every tenth floor as in the second graph) coming to a complete stop before the next segment collapses.
Ehhh??? I don't see that at all. The blue ball (110) has not reached the level of the red ball, before the red ball starts to fall. The red ball starts to fall 2.4 seconds before the blue ball reaches that height. Remember that these times are all based upon falling through a vacuum, certainly NOT comparable to buildings falling through air resistance... (or heaven forbid some REAL resistance like Those 47 Massive Interior Columns).
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/fall01.jpg

This diagram does NOT tell us HOW the buildings SHOULD HAVE fallen... (only how they should have fallen IF they were in a vacuum) - and we can all at least agree on that --- they weren't IN a vacuum.
It may be that he is 'off' by a few seconds in this diagram, but that is irrelevant. So just adjust the diagram to reflect the extra seconds you think it MAY have been... and it will still tell essentially the same story. The buildings fell as if they faced very little to NO resistance above air resistance.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| originally posted by yesitdid The graphs are of a collapse that would have to have each collapseing segment(whether each floor is doing this as in the first graph, or every tenth floor as in the second graph) coming to a complete stop before the next segment collapses. |
Ehhh??? I don't see that at all. The blue ball (110) has not reached the level of the red ball, before the red ball starts to fall. The red ball starts to fall 2.4 seconds before the blue ball reaches that height. Remember that these times are all based upon falling through a vacuum, certainly NOT comparable to buildings falling through air resistance... (or heaven forbid some REAL resistance like Those 47 Massive Interior Columns).
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/fall01.jpg

This diagram does NOT tell us HOW the buildings SHOULD HAVE fallen... (only how they should have fallen IF they were in a vacuum) - and we can all at least agree on that --- they weren't IN a vacuum.
It may be that he is 'off' by a few seconds in this diagram, but that is irrelevant. So just adjust the diagram to reflect the extra seconds you think it MAY have been... and it will still tell essentially the same story. The buildings fell as if they faced very little to NO resistance above air resistance.
by the Schneibster
Fauxie lies again. And it's sooooooo easy to check. Sigh.
{the above should be said in the Scooby-Dooby-Doo voice}
I expected as much... NOTHING
Why would a floor be falling a full 2.4 seconds before the upper collapse mass hits and collects it?
justwantinfo
If the graph is to be taken as per free fall in vacuum assumptions, then the only relevant 'ball would be the blue ball. This shows 8.something seconds.
How many seconds was the actual observed for real time of the top to bottom collapse on the day?
Would that difference represent the delay caused by the collapse process meeting some resistence, albeit ever-diminishing resistence because of cumulative increase in mass/impulse force of falling mass---but some resistence nonetheless?
In case anyone was wondering HOW big those diggers are:
see: http://www.parrhesia.com/wtc/wtc070.jpg
Which is why I say, you can't tell from a STILL photo where the material came from. They have ENORMOUS reach.
Arthur
see: http://www.parrhesia.com/wtc/wtc070.jpg
Which is why I say, you can't tell from a STILL photo where the material came from. They have ENORMOUS reach.
Arthur
Ahhh yes... the old diversion tactics.
CS -
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...indpost&p=67073
the Legendarian -
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...indpost&p=67079
Now....
... anyone wish to address the message...?
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...indpost&p=67055
???
CS -
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...indpost&p=67073
the Legendarian -
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...indpost&p=67079
Now....
... anyone wish to address the message...?
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...indpost&p=67055
???
QUOTE (Schneibster+Feb 23 2006, 03:12 AM)
Fauxie, maybe you forgot the rules here: no personal revelations. I think anybody with sufficient gumption is capable of figuring out where your personal site is, and I think that anybody is capable of evaluating your equipment on the basis of its responses. I don't think there's any question as to the brand and model of the equipment, being as how it prints it out. I don't think there's any need for me to tell people that they can google that brand and model and find out who made it and how much it costs. And I think anybody who knows anything about hardware is going to quickly become aware, as I did, that there is absolutely no purpose to placing hardware of that type in that location.
I have pretty good confidence that I know what you're up to, and I think it's about the slimiest thing I've come across in a month of Sundays. A spammer. What a lowlife scumbag you are, Fauxie. I suppose you could become a pimp of twelve-year-old boys and be considered worse, but I can't think of much else that would be lower.
How's the investigation coming ???

I have pretty good confidence that I know what you're up to, and I think it's about the slimiest thing I've come across in a month of Sundays. A spammer. What a lowlife scumbag you are, Fauxie. I suppose you could become a pimp of twelve-year-old boys and be considered worse, but I can't think of much else that would be lower.
How's the investigation coming ???
This graph

Does require that each floor stop and collect the next before continuing.
that is a representation of the 'pancaking' that does not match any that has been proposed.
I have been incorrect as per this other graph

The author states:
In 0.429 seconds the blue ball(or the top ten floors will have moved only 2.96 feet, at which time the red ball(or the next lower ten floors) must start moving.
The author states:
In 0.429 seconds the blue ball(or the top ten floors will have moved only 2.96 feet, at which time the red ball(or the next lower ten floors) must start moving.
The author states:
Did we see this? I believe it's pretty clear in some of the videos. The "wave" of collapse, progressing down the building, is moving faster than free-fall speed. This would require something like a detonation sequence.
Realizing that, for example, the 40th floor needs to start moving before any of the upper floors have "free-fallen" to that point, why would it start moving?
But NONE of the video evidence does show that any of the lower floors started moving before the progression of the collapse reached that point.
So , "Did we see this?", no, we did not see this, not at all.
In fact , as has been pointed out many , many times here, there is ample photographic and video evidence to show that the debris that is falling outside the tower is well ahead of the collapse point.
And has been pointed out in response to this sophistry (many, many times) is that...
The 'ejected' free-falling masses had started their fall BEFORE the lower exploding floors, so obviously they would be falling ahead of (as-yet) uncompromised sections.
Having NO resistance (except 'air-resistance'), these pieces would obviously have a head-start jump on their plunge to the ground... so I find nothing particularly 'unusual' about structures falling through thin air outpacing the fall of structures which were still fully supported by intact structures and having to crush their way through uncompromised sections of steel framework.
Nevertheless, none of 'you' have provided ANY evidence that these 'free-falling' sections were actually 'outpacing' the fall of yet-to-be impacted 'intact sections'.
Care to provide ANY evidence of 'this' at all ???

Does require that each floor stop and collect the next before continuing.
that is a representation of the 'pancaking' that does not match any that has been proposed.
I have been incorrect as per this other graph

The author states:
QUOTE
If the red ball (dropped from the 100th floor) is to reach the ground at the same time as the blue ball (dropped from the 110th floor), the red ball must be dropped 0.429 seconds after the blue ball is dropped.
In 0.429 seconds the blue ball(or the top ten floors will have moved only 2.96 feet, at which time the red ball(or the next lower ten floors) must start moving.
The author states:
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| If the red ball (dropped from the 100th floor) is to reach the ground at the same time as the blue ball (dropped from the 110th floor), the red ball must be dropped 0.429 seconds after the blue ball is dropped. |
In 0.429 seconds the blue ball(or the top ten floors will have moved only 2.96 feet, at which time the red ball(or the next lower ten floors) must start moving.
The author states:
Did we see this? I believe it's pretty clear in some of the videos. The "wave" of collapse, progressing down the building, is moving faster than free-fall speed. This would require something like a detonation sequence.
Realizing that, for example, the 40th floor needs to start moving before any of the upper floors have "free-fallen" to that point, why would it start moving?
But NONE of the video evidence does show that any of the lower floors started moving before the progression of the collapse reached that point.
So , "Did we see this?", no, we did not see this, not at all.
In fact , as has been pointed out many , many times here, there is ample photographic and video evidence to show that the debris that is falling outside the tower is well ahead of the collapse point.
JaneDoe is the author of these graphs.
She CLAIMS to be an engineering professor.
If you wan't to see her try to defend the graphs go here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...125x49321#49820
This is her view on how the towers were exploded via controlled demolition
It was essentially blowing them to pieces, but with a plan.
The two towers seemed to have had a different sequence for the top part, but the same for the bottom part. I assume this was because of the different height of that top chunk.
Top WTC2: The charges progressed up from the damaged zone while at the same time progressing downward from the damaged zone. That top chunk was getting out of control and they did a super job of correcting for it. There's no way ahead of time they would know the exact location of that damaged zone, which is why I believe they had to have feedback sensores to adjust the timing. I also suspect that the job of that helicopter was to assess which program to run and on which floors to initiate it.
Top WTC1: The charges got the top part under control, first, then did the rest. It began by knocking out the center columns just before the outer charges went. This started the building to fold into itself, locally, as if that part were a short building. That seemed to control the chunk above the damaged region quite nicely.
Bottoms: It seems that they had every XX number of floors wired to take out every single column around the perimeter of a floor -- to make this look like a progressive collapse. But, one of them (I don't remember which) was below the plane hole and the other was above, as though that just happened to be the closest.
I believe the rest of it was made to look like a progressive collapse, but it also controlled how the stuff fell. The charges progressed down, being set off faster than the speed of gravity, which was similar in both. This "second stage" of the even was as pox described... just blowing it to bits. But the sequencing downward made a good cover story.
To which I say:

Arthur
She CLAIMS to be an engineering professor.
If you wan't to see her try to defend the graphs go here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...125x49321#49820
This is her view on how the towers were exploded via controlled demolition
It was essentially blowing them to pieces, but with a plan.
The two towers seemed to have had a different sequence for the top part, but the same for the bottom part. I assume this was because of the different height of that top chunk.
Top WTC2: The charges progressed up from the damaged zone while at the same time progressing downward from the damaged zone. That top chunk was getting out of control and they did a super job of correcting for it. There's no way ahead of time they would know the exact location of that damaged zone, which is why I believe they had to have feedback sensores to adjust the timing. I also suspect that the job of that helicopter was to assess which program to run and on which floors to initiate it.
Top WTC1: The charges got the top part under control, first, then did the rest. It began by knocking out the center columns just before the outer charges went. This started the building to fold into itself, locally, as if that part were a short building. That seemed to control the chunk above the damaged region quite nicely.
Bottoms: It seems that they had every XX number of floors wired to take out every single column around the perimeter of a floor -- to make this look like a progressive collapse. But, one of them (I don't remember which) was below the plane hole and the other was above, as though that just happened to be the closest.
I believe the rest of it was made to look like a progressive collapse, but it also controlled how the stuff fell. The charges progressed down, being set off faster than the speed of gravity, which was similar in both. This "second stage" of the even was as pox described... just blowing it to bits. But the sequencing downward made a good cover story.
To which I say:

Arthur
I recently commented on the janedoe web page, privately. As the web page is public, I now reproduce my comments, edited slightly.
=============================================
Overall, this strikes me as not very useful, and even misleading. It reminds of Bazant-Zhou's "elastic dynamic analysis", which is only OK if you don't take it seriously.
As you know, I believe the towers were deliberately destroyed. In fact, I find the visual evidence of the collapses alone overwhelming - note that not even NIST made any attempt to show what dust/air jets throwing ejecta outwards would look like even if only at the very beginning of a collapse. Perhaps even they could not tweak their model to make this phenomena "appear", even for one floor. (More likely, of course, is that they didn't want to draw attention to it at all, since it doesn't fit the Fairy Tale very well. They were silent on many other damning pieces of evidence, also.)
Even so, we need to be honest and fair about how we go about things. This means, among other things, that if you simplify a model to make calculations easier, you cannot do so in a way that (significantly) favors the hypothesis you favor, when you are claiming to disprove one you do not. So, it's just fine to make assumptions in FEMA/NIST's favor, and then show that even so, their version of things doesn't hold water.
If your goal is specifically to disprove FEMA/NIST's handwaiving re global collapse (I here avoid dignifying it by calling it "collective intuition", though I have done so, at times) then you cannot make simplifying assumptions which goes against FEMA/NIST, and then say "Aha, they are wrong!".* This has no meaning.
With these preliminaries out of the way, let's take a closer look. But first a final caveat.
Because we cannot know, with a great deal of precision, how much of the buildings were turned to dust and how much was not, for the purposes of these calculations it is not reasonable to assume 100% was turned to dust (even if you suspect, based on the visual evidence, that, say, 80% was turned to dust)
Once you accept that not ALL the buildings were turned to dust, you have to accept that the non-dust portions, falling within the buildings' footprints, must have transferred downward momentum on their way down. Thus, you cannot ignore momentum transfers and be taken seriously.
Come to think of it, we COULD have gotten a good handle on the relative proportions of dust/non-dust by separating the two from a known volume, and then just weighing. Also, we COULD have then separated out the steel from the non-dust and weighed what was left over (according to Hoffman, and the pictures I've seen, basically very little.)
Case 1: Free-fall time of a billiard ball dropped from the roof of WTC1, in a vacuum
================================================================================
=====
This is high school physics, which nobody is going to seriously argue about.
Case 2: ‘Progressive Collapse’ in ten-floor intervals
=====================================================
This completely ignores the fact that upper floors would transfer significant momentum to the floors they are impacting, and furthermore, that the ratio of "available" momentum to inertia would rapidly grow. So, while they assume no resistance, which would strongly favor FEMA/NIST, this other assertion strongly disfavors NIST. Thus, it's of no value in disproving NIST. It doesn't prove anything relevant to the real world case, one way or another.
Case 3: ‘Progressive Collapse’ in one-floor intervals
======================================================
I found this kind of interesting, mostly because it's so unintuitive. I, for one, certainly don't think that a downwardly collapsing part of the building will transfer ALL of it's momentum to the floor being impacted, even if only instantaneously.
Since it's so unlikely in it's premises, unless the author can present any reason why we should take these premises seriously, I don't see why we should take it's conclusion seriously, either. Also, note that the analogy with the gizmo with the hanging balls is misleading, since these undergo (mostly) elastic collisions. Collapsing floors in the real world, however, are going to undergo inelastic collisions.
The questions asked in this section, BTW, are spot on. The collapses exhibited a high degree of symmetry, and the WTC 7 collapse was so nearly perfectly symmetrical that I'm impressed that this could be carried out with such precision, even deliberately.
Case 4: ‘Progressive Collapse’ at near free-fall speed
========================================================
This is interesting, but of little value in disproving NIST/FEMA, since they will claim that most of the top of the building was not dust (never mind what it looks like), and thus you can't ignore momentum transfers, which this calculation does.*
So, is it of value in showing how the demolition actually did take place? Perhaps it is, somewhat, though it seems fatally flawed to me in assuming that the "total" collapse time was 9.22 seconds.
Recall that the visual evidence is overwhelming in that the large, falling debris pieces were at least 20 floors below an uncollapsed, straight portion of a tower, when the collapse was roughly only about 1/2 over. It is not reasonable to assume a free fall time (or free fall time plus only 1 second, say).
For accurate discussions of collapse times, see Hoffman.
* Well, if you could somehow get quantitative limits, that you are very comfortable with, that follow from making simplyfying assumptions against NIST/FEMA, that still don't come close to changing the results, then you are still on safe ground. But nothing of the sort is calculated herein.
=============================================
Overall, this strikes me as not very useful, and even misleading. It reminds of Bazant-Zhou's "elastic dynamic analysis", which is only OK if you don't take it seriously.
As you know, I believe the towers were deliberately destroyed. In fact, I find the visual evidence of the collapses alone overwhelming - note that not even NIST made any attempt to show what dust/air jets throwing ejecta outwards would look like even if only at the very beginning of a collapse. Perhaps even they could not tweak their model to make this phenomena "appear", even for one floor. (More likely, of course, is that they didn't want to draw attention to it at all, since it doesn't fit the Fairy Tale very well. They were silent on many other damning pieces of evidence, also.)
Even so, we need to be honest and fair about how we go about things. This means, among other things, that if you simplify a model to make calculations easier, you cannot do so in a way that (significantly) favors the hypothesis you favor, when you are claiming to disprove one you do not. So, it's just fine to make assumptions in FEMA/NIST's favor, and then show that even so, their version of things doesn't hold water.
If your goal is specifically to disprove FEMA/NIST's handwaiving re global collapse (I here avoid dignifying it by calling it "collective intuition", though I have done so, at times) then you cannot make simplifying assumptions which goes against FEMA/NIST, and then say "Aha, they are wrong!".* This has no meaning.
With these preliminaries out of the way, let's take a closer look. But first a final caveat.
Because we cannot know, with a great deal of precision, how much of the buildings were turned to dust and how much was not, for the purposes of these calculations it is not reasonable to assume 100% was turned to dust (even if you suspect, based on the visual evidence, that, say, 80% was turned to dust)
Once you accept that not ALL the buildings were turned to dust, you have to accept that the non-dust portions, falling within the buildings' footprints, must have transferred downward momentum on their way down. Thus, you cannot ignore momentum transfers and be taken seriously.
Come to think of it, we COULD have gotten a good handle on the relative proportions of dust/non-dust by separating the two from a known volume, and then just weighing. Also, we COULD have then separated out the steel from the non-dust and weighed what was left over (according to Hoffman, and the pictures I've seen, basically very little.)
Case 1: Free-fall time of a billiard ball dropped from the roof of WTC1, in a vacuum
================================================================================
=====
This is high school physics, which nobody is going to seriously argue about.
Case 2: ‘Progressive Collapse’ in ten-floor intervals
=====================================================
This completely ignores the fact that upper floors would transfer significant momentum to the floors they are impacting, and furthermore, that the ratio of "available" momentum to inertia would rapidly grow. So, while they assume no resistance, which would strongly favor FEMA/NIST, this other assertion strongly disfavors NIST. Thus, it's of no value in disproving NIST. It doesn't prove anything relevant to the real world case, one way or another.
Case 3: ‘Progressive Collapse’ in one-floor intervals
======================================================
I found this kind of interesting, mostly because it's so unintuitive. I, for one, certainly don't think that a downwardly collapsing part of the building will transfer ALL of it's momentum to the floor being impacted, even if only instantaneously.
Since it's so unlikely in it's premises, unless the author can present any reason why we should take these premises seriously, I don't see why we should take it's conclusion seriously, either. Also, note that the analogy with the gizmo with the hanging balls is misleading, since these undergo (mostly) elastic collisions. Collapsing floors in the real world, however, are going to undergo inelastic collisions.
The questions asked in this section, BTW, are spot on. The collapses exhibited a high degree of symmetry, and the WTC 7 collapse was so nearly perfectly symmetrical that I'm impressed that this could be carried out with such precision, even deliberately.
Case 4: ‘Progressive Collapse’ at near free-fall speed
========================================================
This is interesting, but of little value in disproving NIST/FEMA, since they will claim that most of the top of the building was not dust (never mind what it looks like), and thus you can't ignore momentum transfers, which this calculation does.*
So, is it of value in showing how the demolition actually did take place? Perhaps it is, somewhat, though it seems fatally flawed to me in assuming that the "total" collapse time was 9.22 seconds.
Recall that the visual evidence is overwhelming in that the large, falling debris pieces were at least 20 floors below an uncollapsed, straight portion of a tower, when the collapse was roughly only about 1/2 over. It is not reasonable to assume a free fall time (or free fall time plus only 1 second, say).
For accurate discussions of collapse times, see Hoffman.
* Well, if you could somehow get quantitative limits, that you are very comfortable with, that follow from making simplyfying assumptions against NIST/FEMA, that still don't come close to changing the results, then you are still on safe ground. But nothing of the sort is calculated herein.
QUOTE
by Yesitdid
In fact , as has been pointed out many , many times here, there is ample photographic and video evidence to show that the debris that is falling outside the tower is well ahead of the collapse point.
In fact , as has been pointed out many , many times here, there is ample photographic and video evidence to show that the debris that is falling outside the tower is well ahead of the collapse point.
And has been pointed out in response to this sophistry (many, many times) is that...
The 'ejected' free-falling masses had started their fall BEFORE the lower exploding floors, so obviously they would be falling ahead of (as-yet) uncompromised sections.
Having NO resistance (except 'air-resistance'), these pieces would obviously have a head-start jump on their plunge to the ground... so I find nothing particularly 'unusual' about structures falling through thin air outpacing the fall of structures which were still fully supported by intact structures and having to crush their way through uncompromised sections of steel framework.
Nevertheless, none of 'you' have provided ANY evidence that these 'free-falling' sections were actually 'outpacing' the fall of yet-to-be impacted 'intact sections'.
Care to provide ANY evidence of 'this' at all ???
metamars states:
Then Foxx states:
Then Foxx states:
Nevertheless, none of 'you' have provided ANY evidence that these 'free-falling' sections were actually 'outpacing' the fall of yet-to-be impacted 'intact sections'
Why don't the two of you talk it over then?
Anyway Foxx,
My point, had you cared to read it, was that the author is stating a free fall time for the towers. Since the debris IS free falling then it cannot out pace a collapse that is supposedly occuring at a free fall rate as well.
IF lower floors were blown out prior to the collpase actually reaching them then we should see evidence of movement of those floors BEFORE the normal progression of the collapse AND before the free falling debris reaches those floors. THAT is not in evidence.
The author of the page also claims that the building was turning to dust. It simply was not as is evidenced by the great numbers of large steel columns in the rubble pile.
The author is quite the good respresentation of that favorite of yours Foxx, the sophist.
QUOTE
Recall that the visual evidence is overwhelming in that the large, falling debris pieces were at least 20 floors below an uncollapsed, straight portion of a tower, when the collapse was roughly only about 1/2 over.
Then Foxx states:
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Recall that the visual evidence is overwhelming in that the large, falling debris pieces were at least 20 floors below an uncollapsed, straight portion of a tower, when the collapse was roughly only about 1/2 over. |
Then Foxx states:
Nevertheless, none of 'you' have provided ANY evidence that these 'free-falling' sections were actually 'outpacing' the fall of yet-to-be impacted 'intact sections'
Why don't the two of you talk it over then?
Anyway Foxx,
QUOTE
QUOTE
by Yesitdid
In fact , as has been pointed out many , many times here, there is ample photographic and video evidence to show that the debris that is falling outside the tower is well ahead of the collapse point.
And has been pointed out in response to this sophistry (many, many times) is that...
The 'ejected' free-falling masses had started their fall BEFORE the lower exploding floors, so obviously they would be falling ahead of (as-yet) uncompromised sections.
by Yesitdid
In fact , as has been pointed out many , many times here, there is ample photographic and video evidence to show that the debris that is falling outside the tower is well ahead of the collapse point.
And has been pointed out in response to this sophistry (many, many times) is that...
The 'ejected' free-falling masses had started their fall BEFORE the lower exploding floors, so obviously they would be falling ahead of (as-yet) uncompromised sections.
My point, had you cared to read it, was that the author is stating a free fall time for the towers. Since the debris IS free falling then it cannot out pace a collapse that is supposedly occuring at a free fall rate as well.
IF lower floors were blown out prior to the collpase actually reaching them then we should see evidence of movement of those floors BEFORE the normal progression of the collapse AND before the free falling debris reaches those floors. THAT is not in evidence.
The author of the page also claims that the building was turning to dust. It simply was not as is evidenced by the great numbers of large steel columns in the rubble pile.
The author is quite the good respresentation of that favorite of yours Foxx, the sophist.
QUOTE (metamars+Feb 23 2006, 04:32 AM)
I recently commented on the janedoe web page, privately. As the web page is public, I now reproduce my comments, edited slightly.
=============================================
Overall, this strikes me as not very useful, and even misleading. It reminds of Bazant-Zhou's "elastic dynamic analysis", which is only OK if you don't take it seriously.
As you know, I believe the towers were deliberately destroyed. In fact, I find the visual evidence of the collapses alone overwhelming - note that not even NIST made any attempt to show what dust/air jets throwing ejecta outwards would look like even if only at the very beginning of a collapse. Perhaps even they could not tweak their model to make this phenomena "appear", even for one floor. (More likely, of course, is that they didn't want to draw attention to it at all, since it doesn't fit the Fairy Tale very well. They were silent on many other damning pieces of evidence, also.)
Even so, we need to be honest and fair about how we go about things. This means, among other things, that if you simplify a model to make calculations easier, you cannot do so in a way that (significantly) favors the hypothesis you favor, when you are claiming to disprove one you do not. So, it's just fine to make assumptions in FEMA/NIST's favor, and then show that even so, their version of things doesn't hold water.
If your goal is specifically to disprove FEMA/NIST's handwaiving re global collapse (I here avoid dignifying it by calling it "collective intuition", though I have done so, at times) then you cannot make simplifying assumptions which goes against FEMA/NIST, and then say "Aha, they are wrong!".* This has no meaning.
With these preliminaries out of the way, let's take a closer look. But first a final caveat.
Because we cannot know, with a great deal of precision, how much of the buildings were turned to dust and how much was not, for the purposes of these calculations it is not reasonable to assume 100% was turned to dust (even if you suspect, based on the visual evidence, that, say, 80% was turned to dust)
Once you accept that not ALL the buildings were turned to dust, you have to accept that the non-dust portions, falling within the buildings' footprints, must have transferred downward momentum on their way down. Thus, you cannot ignore momentum transfers and be taken seriously.
Come to think of it, we COULD have gotten a good handle on the relative proportions of dust/non-dust by separating the two from a known volume, and then just weighing. Also, we COULD have then separated out the steel from the non-dust and weighed what was left over (according to Hoffman, and the pictures I've seen, basically very little.)
Case 1: Free-fall time of a billiard ball dropped from the roof of WTC1, in a vacuum
================================================================================
=====
This is high school physics, which nobody is going to seriously argue about.
Case 2: ‘Progressive Collapse’ in ten-floor intervals
=====================================================
This completely ignores the fact that upper floors would transfer significant momentum to the floors they are impacting, and furthermore, that the ratio of "available" momentum to inertia would rapidly grow. So, while they assume no resistance, which would strongly favor FEMA/NIST, this other assertion strongly disfavors NIST. Thus, it's of no value in disproving NIST. It doesn't prove anything relevant to the real world case, one way or another.
Case 3: ‘Progressive Collapse’ in one-floor intervals
======================================================
I found this kind of interesting, mostly because it's so unintuitive. I, for one, certainly don't think that a downwardly collapsing part of the building will transfer ALL of it's momentum to the floor being impacted, even if only instantaneously.
Since it's so unlikely in it's premises, unless the author can present any reason why we should take these premises seriously, I don't see why we should take it's conclusion seriously, either. Also, note that the analogy with the gizmo with the hanging balls is misleading, since these undergo (mostly) elastic collisions. Collapsing floors in the real world, however, are going to undergo inelastic collisions.
The questions asked in this section, BTW, are spot on. The collapses exhibited a high degree of symmetry, and the WTC 7 collapse was so nearly perfectly symmetrical that I'm impressed that this could be carried out with such precision, even deliberately.
Case 4: ‘Progressive Collapse’ at near free-fall speed
========================================================
This is interesting, but of little value in disproving NIST/FEMA, since they will claim that most of the top of the building was not dust (never mind what it looks like), and thus you can't ignore momentum transfers, which this calculation does.*
So, is it of value in showing how the demolition actually did take place? Perhaps it is, somewhat, though it seems fatally flawed to me in assuming that the "total" collapse time was 9.22 seconds.
Recall that the visual evidence is overwhelming in that the large, falling debris pieces were at least 20 floors below an uncollapsed, straight portion of a tower, when the collapse was roughly only about 1/2 over. It is not reasonable to assume a free fall time (or free fall time plus only 1 second, say).
For accurate discussions of collapse times, see Hoffman.
* Well, if you could somehow get quantitative limits, that you are very comfortable with, that follow from making simplyfying assumptions against NIST/FEMA, that still don't come close to changing the results, then you are still on safe ground. But nothing of the sort is calculated herein.
Hi metamars!
IIRC, early on here Foxx went to great pains to show how the HAT TRUSS structures (which extended over a few levels at the top of the towers) were HUGE, STRONG and MASSIVE. I can imagine threfore that the upper portions of the towers were less like a collection of rubble and more like a STRONG 'cage-like' structure that 'collected' rubble into its 'interstices' space, all of which together formed a VAST and HEAVY 'tight plug' of falling mass for quite a ways down before IT finally disintegrated into its separate 'pieces'. So any analysis that ignores this MAJOR WEIGHT/IMPULSE factor will not be representative.
I remind you that it was Foxx who drilled it into me that the HAT TRUSS WAS A MAJORLY STRONG AND HEAVY-DUTY STRUCTURE IN ITS OWN RIGHT; and that if the 'legs' were knocked out from under such a structure (at the plane-impact/fire levels), then this SIGNIFICANT temporarily-coherent 'PISTON' should be taken into account as well as all the lower-level random/chaotic goings on.
What do YOU think, meta?
RC.
.
=============================================
Overall, this strikes me as not very useful, and even misleading. It reminds of Bazant-Zhou's "elastic dynamic analysis", which is only OK if you don't take it seriously.
As you know, I believe the towers were deliberately destroyed. In fact, I find the visual evidence of the collapses alone overwhelming - note that not even NIST made any attempt to show what dust/air jets throwing ejecta outwards would look like even if only at the very beginning of a collapse. Perhaps even they could not tweak their model to make this phenomena "appear", even for one floor. (More likely, of course, is that they didn't want to draw attention to it at all, since it doesn't fit the Fairy Tale very well. They were silent on many other damning pieces of evidence, also.)
Even so, we need to be honest and fair about how we go about things. This means, among other things, that if you simplify a model to make calculations easier, you cannot do so in a way that (significantly) favors the hypothesis you favor, when you are claiming to disprove one you do not. So, it's just fine to make assumptions in FEMA/NIST's favor, and then show that even so, their version of things doesn't hold water.
If your goal is specifically to disprove FEMA/NIST's handwaiving re global collapse (I here avoid dignifying it by calling it "collective intuition", though I have done so, at times) then you cannot make simplifying assumptions which goes against FEMA/NIST, and then say "Aha, they are wrong!".* This has no meaning.
With these preliminaries out of the way, let's take a closer look. But first a final caveat.
Because we cannot know, with a great deal of precision, how much of the buildings were turned to dust and how much was not, for the purposes of these calculations it is not reasonable to assume 100% was turned to dust (even if you suspect, based on the visual evidence, that, say, 80% was turned to dust)
Once you accept that not ALL the buildings were turned to dust, you have to accept that the non-dust portions, falling within the buildings' footprints, must have transferred downward momentum on their way down. Thus, you cannot ignore momentum transfers and be taken seriously.
Come to think of it, we COULD have gotten a good handle on the relative proportions of dust/non-dust by separating the two from a known volume, and then just weighing. Also, we COULD have then separated out the steel from the non-dust and weighed what was left over (according to Hoffman, and the pictures I've seen, basically very little.)
Case 1: Free-fall time of a billiard ball dropped from the roof of WTC1, in a vacuum
================================================================================
=====
This is high school physics, which nobody is going to seriously argue about.
Case 2: ‘Progressive Collapse’ in ten-floor intervals
=====================================================
This completely ignores the fact that upper floors would transfer significant momentum to the floors they are impacting, and furthermore, that the ratio of "available" momentum to inertia would rapidly grow. So, while they assume no resistance, which would strongly favor FEMA/NIST, this other assertion strongly disfavors NIST. Thus, it's of no value in disproving NIST. It doesn't prove anything relevant to the real world case, one way or another.
Case 3: ‘Progressive Collapse’ in one-floor intervals
======================================================
I found this kind of interesting, mostly because it's so unintuitive. I, for one, certainly don't think that a downwardly collapsing part of the building will transfer ALL of it's momentum to the floor being impacted, even if only instantaneously.
Since it's so unlikely in it's premises, unless the author can present any reason why we should take these premises seriously, I don't see why we should take it's conclusion seriously, either. Also, note that the analogy with the gizmo with the hanging balls is misleading, since these undergo (mostly) elastic collisions. Collapsing floors in the real world, however, are going to undergo inelastic collisions.
The questions asked in this section, BTW, are spot on. The collapses exhibited a high degree of symmetry, and the WTC 7 collapse was so nearly perfectly symmetrical that I'm impressed that this could be carried out with such precision, even deliberately.
Case 4: ‘Progressive Collapse’ at near free-fall speed
========================================================
This is interesting, but of little value in disproving NIST/FEMA, since they will claim that most of the top of the building was not dust (never mind what it looks like), and thus you can't ignore momentum transfers, which this calculation does.*
So, is it of value in showing how the demolition actually did take place? Perhaps it is, somewhat, though it seems fatally flawed to me in assuming that the "total" collapse time was 9.22 seconds.
Recall that the visual evidence is overwhelming in that the large, falling debris pieces were at least 20 floors below an uncollapsed, straight portion of a tower, when the collapse was roughly only about 1/2 over. It is not reasonable to assume a free fall time (or free fall time plus only 1 second, say).
For accurate discussions of collapse times, see Hoffman.
* Well, if you could somehow get quantitative limits, that you are very comfortable with, that follow from making simplyfying assumptions against NIST/FEMA, that still don't come close to changing the results, then you are still on safe ground. But nothing of the sort is calculated herein.
Hi metamars!
IIRC, early on here Foxx went to great pains to show how the HAT TRUSS structures (which extended over a few levels at the top of the towers) were HUGE, STRONG and MASSIVE. I can imagine threfore that the upper portions of the towers were less like a collection of rubble and more like a STRONG 'cage-like' structure that 'collected' rubble into its 'interstices' space, all of which together formed a VAST and HEAVY 'tight plug' of falling mass for quite a ways down before IT finally disintegrated into its separate 'pieces'. So any analysis that ignores this MAJOR WEIGHT/IMPULSE factor will not be representative.
I remind you that it was Foxx who drilled it into me that the HAT TRUSS WAS A MAJORLY STRONG AND HEAVY-DUTY STRUCTURE IN ITS OWN RIGHT; and that if the 'legs' were knocked out from under such a structure (at the plane-impact/fire levels), then this SIGNIFICANT temporarily-coherent 'PISTON' should be taken into account as well as all the lower-level random/chaotic goings on.
What do YOU think, meta?
RC.
.
Change the subject much, spammer?
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 23 2006, 12:38 AM)
... so I find nothing particularly 'unusual' about structures falling through thin air outpacing the fall of structures which were still fully supported by intact structures and having to crush their way through uncompromised sections of steel framework.
I think Foxx just said that the towers didn't fall at Freefall speed.
EUREKA
Was there an Epiphany NORTH of the Border????
Arthur
I think Foxx just said that the towers didn't fall at Freefall speed.
EUREKA
Was there an Epiphany NORTH of the Border????
Arthur
QUOTE (yesitdid+Feb 23 2006, 04:54 AM)
metamars states:
Then Foxx states:
Then Foxx states:
Nevertheless, none of 'you' have provided ANY evidence that these 'free-falling' sections were actually 'outpacing' the fall of yet-to-be impacted 'intact sections'
Why don't the two of you talk it over then?
Uhhhhh.... not quite sure what yid is referring to here.
What about it metamars?
Do you see conflicts in the above quotes between us?
Perhaps I am missing something here?
QUOTE
Recall that the visual evidence is overwhelming in that the large, falling debris pieces were at least 20 floors below an uncollapsed, straight portion of a tower, when the collapse was roughly only about 1/2 over.
Then Foxx states:
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Recall that the visual evidence is overwhelming in that the large, falling debris pieces were at least 20 floors below an uncollapsed, straight portion of a tower, when the collapse was roughly only about 1/2 over. |
Then Foxx states:
Nevertheless, none of 'you' have provided ANY evidence that these 'free-falling' sections were actually 'outpacing' the fall of yet-to-be impacted 'intact sections'
Why don't the two of you talk it over then?
Uhhhhh.... not quite sure what yid is referring to here.
What about it metamars?
Do you see conflicts in the above quotes between us?
Perhaps I am missing something here?
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 23 2006, 05:00 AM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 23 2006, 12:38 AM)
... so I find nothing particularly 'unusual' about structures falling through thin air outpacing the fall of structures which were still fully supported by intact structures and having to crush their way through uncompromised sections of steel framework.
I think Foxx just said that the towers didn't fall at Freefall speed.
EUREKA
Was there an Epiphany NORTH of the Border????
Arthur
Hey, I'm north of that border too!
I think Foxx just said that the towers didn't fall at Freefall speed.
EUREKA
Was there an Epiphany NORTH of the Border????
Arthur
Hey, I'm north of that border too!
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 23 2006, 05:00 AM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 23 2006, 12:38 AM)
... so I find nothing particularly 'unusual' about structures falling through thin air outpacing the fall of structures which were still fully supported by intact structures and having to crush their way through uncompromised sections of steel framework.
I think Foxx just said that the towers didn't fall at Freefall speed.
EUREKA
Was there an Epiphany NORTH of the Border????
Arthur
Please refresh my memory through the search aspects of this forum and post my quote(s) stating that the towers fell at FREE-FALL rates.
Thanks.
I think Foxx just said that the towers didn't fall at Freefall speed.
EUREKA
Was there an Epiphany NORTH of the Border????
Arthur
Please refresh my memory through the search aspects of this forum and post my quote(s) stating that the towers fell at FREE-FALL rates.
Thanks.
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 23 2006, 05:00 AM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 23 2006, 12:38 AM)
... so I find nothing particularly 'unusual' about structures falling through thin air outpacing the fall of structures which were still fully supported by intact structures and having to crush their way through uncompromised sections of steel framework.
I think Foxx just said that the towers didn't fall at Freefall speed.
EUREKA
Was there an Epiphany NORTH of the Border????
Arthur
Hi adoucette, everyone!
Oh dear. Perhaps the CT tangled web is getting ever harder to maintain. Can we expect frater plecticus to post another 'political post' to divert attention from Foxx's CONVERSION from the 'unofficial conspiracy' TO THE 'OFFICIAL CONSPIRACY'? hehehe
I will bet that no consistent physics will be forthcoming from FP et al, that's for sure.
RC.
.
I think Foxx just said that the towers didn't fall at Freefall speed.
EUREKA
Was there an Epiphany NORTH of the Border????
Arthur
Hi adoucette, everyone!
Oh dear. Perhaps the CT tangled web is getting ever harder to maintain. Can we expect frater plecticus to post another 'political post' to divert attention from Foxx's CONVERSION from the 'unofficial conspiracy' TO THE 'OFFICIAL CONSPIRACY'? hehehe
I will bet that no consistent physics will be forthcoming from FP et al, that's for sure.
RC.
.
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 23 2006, 05:03 AM)
QUOTE (yesitdid+Feb 23 2006, 04:54 AM)
metamars states:
Then Foxx states:
Then Foxx states:
Nevertheless, none of 'you' have provided ANY evidence that these 'free-falling' sections were actually 'outpacing' the fall of yet-to-be impacted 'intact sections'
Why don't the two of you talk it over then?
Uhhhhh.... not quite sure what yid is referring to here.
What about it metamars?
Do you see conflicts in the above quotes between us?
Perhaps I am missing something here?
You state that there were explosives ahead of the gravity driven collapse(as does janedoe) that caused the lower floors to start moving BEFORE a free falling object reaches that point.
Well Foxx, that debris IS free falling and there is no evidence that anything on the towers is moving before the debris OR the gravity driven collapse point gets to it.
Supposedly there will be a 2.8 second lead time before upper sections reach the planted explosives on lower sections. Supposedly the next lower section will have its columns subject to demolition at least 0.429 seconds after an upper section starts moving..
Despite the author's claim that this happens, her saying so don't make it so. Neither does your's.
metamars IS stating that lower sections remain motionless.
QUOTE
Recall that the visual evidence is overwhelming in that the large, falling debris pieces were at least 20 floors below an uncollapsed, straight portion of a tower, when the collapse was roughly only about 1/2 over.
Then Foxx states:
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Recall that the visual evidence is overwhelming in that the large, falling debris pieces were at least 20 floors below an uncollapsed, straight portion of a tower, when the collapse was roughly only about 1/2 over. |
Then Foxx states:
Nevertheless, none of 'you' have provided ANY evidence that these 'free-falling' sections were actually 'outpacing' the fall of yet-to-be impacted 'intact sections'
Why don't the two of you talk it over then?
Uhhhhh.... not quite sure what yid is referring to here.
What about it metamars?
Do you see conflicts in the above quotes between us?
Perhaps I am missing something here?
You state that there were explosives ahead of the gravity driven collapse(as does janedoe) that caused the lower floors to start moving BEFORE a free falling object reaches that point.
Well Foxx, that debris IS free falling and there is no evidence that anything on the towers is moving before the debris OR the gravity driven collapse point gets to it.
Supposedly there will be a 2.8 second lead time before upper sections reach the planted explosives on lower sections. Supposedly the next lower section will have its columns subject to demolition at least 0.429 seconds after an upper section starts moving..
Despite the author's claim that this happens, her saying so don't make it so. Neither does your's.
metamars IS stating that lower sections remain motionless.
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 22 2006, 08:30 PM)
JaneDoe is the author of these graphs.
She CLAIMS to be an engineering professor.
If you wan't to see her try to defend the graphs go here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...125x49321#49820
This is her view on how the towers were exploded via controlled demolition
It was essentially blowing them to pieces, but with a plan.
The two towers seemed to have had a different sequence for the top part, but the same for the bottom part. I assume this was because of the different height of that top chunk.
Top WTC2: The charges progressed up from the damaged zone while at the same time progressing downward from the damaged zone. That top chunk was getting out of control and they did a super job of correcting for it. There's no way ahead of time they would know the exact location of that damaged zone, which is why I believe they had to have feedback sensores to adjust the timing. I also suspect that the job of that helicopter was to assess which program to run and on which floors to initiate it.
Top WTC1: The charges got the top part under control, first, then did the rest. It began by knocking out the center columns just before the outer charges went. This started the building to fold into itself, locally, as if that part were a short building. That seemed to control the chunk above the damaged region quite nicely.
Bottoms: It seems that they had every XX number of floors wired to take out every single column around the perimeter of a floor -- to make this look like a progressive collapse. But, one of them (I don't remember which) was below the plane hole and the other was above, as though that just happened to be the closest.
I believe the rest of it was made to look like a progressive collapse, but it also controlled how the stuff fell. The charges progressed down, being set off faster than the speed of gravity, which was similar in both. This "second stage" of the even was as pox described... just blowing it to bits. But the sequencing downward made a good cover story.
To which I say:

Arthur
Edited
Removed information.
Don’t want to be part of disinformation agents harassing people at http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org
She CLAIMS to be an engineering professor.
If you wan't to see her try to defend the graphs go here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...125x49321#49820
This is her view on how the towers were exploded via controlled demolition
It was essentially blowing them to pieces, but with a plan.
The two towers seemed to have had a different sequence for the top part, but the same for the bottom part. I assume this was because of the different height of that top chunk.
Top WTC2: The charges progressed up from the damaged zone while at the same time progressing downward from the damaged zone. That top chunk was getting out of control and they did a super job of correcting for it. There's no way ahead of time they would know the exact location of that damaged zone, which is why I believe they had to have feedback sensores to adjust the timing. I also suspect that the job of that helicopter was to assess which program to run and on which floors to initiate it.
Top WTC1: The charges got the top part under control, first, then did the rest. It began by knocking out the center columns just before the outer charges went. This started the building to fold into itself, locally, as if that part were a short building. That seemed to control the chunk above the damaged region quite nicely.
Bottoms: It seems that they had every XX number of floors wired to take out every single column around the perimeter of a floor -- to make this look like a progressive collapse. But, one of them (I don't remember which) was below the plane hole and the other was above, as though that just happened to be the closest.
I believe the rest of it was made to look like a progressive collapse, but it also controlled how the stuff fell. The charges progressed down, being set off faster than the speed of gravity, which was similar in both. This "second stage" of the even was as pox described... just blowing it to bits. But the sequencing downward made a good cover story.
To which I say:

Arthur
Edited
Removed information.
Don’t want to be part of disinformation agents harassing people at http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org
QUOTE (Foxx+)
Please refresh my memory through the search aspects of this forum and post my quote(s) stating that the towers fell at FREE-FALL rates.
SURE, glad to oblige.
The buildings fell as if they faced very little to NO resistance above air resistance.
Well, DUH!
I sorta THOUGHT that when you wrote that the buildings fell as if they faced NO resistance above AIR resistance, that that would be FREE FALL speeds.
Since in the PRECEEDING sentence you agree that we WEREN'T talking about Free Fall in a VACUUM.

Arthur
SURE, glad to oblige.
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 22 2006, 10:33 PM)
The buildings fell as if they faced very little to NO resistance above air resistance.
Well, DUH!
I sorta THOUGHT that when you wrote that the buildings fell as if they faced NO resistance above AIR resistance, that that would be FREE FALL speeds.
Since in the PRECEEDING sentence you agree that we WEREN'T talking about Free Fall in a VACUUM.

Arthur
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Feb 23 2006, 01:27 AM)
The author, Janedoe is listed on the http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org
Ph.D. Mechanical Engineering, Clemson University
You can see her name under articles, The Case for Controlled Demolition.
I would think she is trying to explain the collapse in a way non-engineers could understand. I know in solid modeling pieces are sometimes referred to as chunks . FEA is one of her areas of research according to the university website.
Well, given her analysis:
I wouldn't want her on MY side of any debate.
Apparently she specializes in composites and Dental.
Hey Foxx, she's not a Fox, but at least you have a few things in common.

You can call her at (864) 656-5630
Or E-mail at judy.wood@ces.clemson.edu
http://www.ces.clemson.edu/me/mefaculty/pdfs/Wood1.pdf
Arthur
Ph.D. Mechanical Engineering, Clemson University
You can see her name under articles, The Case for Controlled Demolition.
I would think she is trying to explain the collapse in a way non-engineers could understand. I know in solid modeling pieces are sometimes referred to as chunks . FEA is one of her areas of research according to the university website.
Well, given her analysis:
QUOTE
There's no way ahead of time they would know the exact location of that damaged zone, which is why I believe they had to have feedback sensores to adjust the timing. I also suspect that the job of that helicopter was to assess which program to run and on which floors to initiate it.
I wouldn't want her on MY side of any debate.
Apparently she specializes in composites and Dental.
Hey Foxx, she's not a Fox, but at least you have a few things in common.

You can call her at (864) 656-5630
Or E-mail at judy.wood@ces.clemson.edu
http://www.ces.clemson.edu/me/mefaculty/pdfs/Wood1.pdf
Arthur
Well, wadda ya know. I person from my own town is on the "Scholars for 9/11 Truth".
Small world, now I will always look at him/her differently.
Small world, now I will always look at him/her differently.
QUOTE (yesitdid+Feb 23 2006, 06:17 AM)
Well, wadda ya know. I person from my own town is on the "Scholars for 9/11 Truth".
Small world, now I will always look at him/her differently.
I don't know about everybody else here, but considering the massive irrelevance and/or incompetence embodied in the list of "Scholars for 9/11 Truth", I can't stop myself from automatically calling it by what seems to be a fuller and more apt title: "Incompetent and Irrelevant Scholars for 9/11 Truth". Ah well.
RC.
.
Small world, now I will always look at him/her differently.
I don't know about everybody else here, but considering the massive irrelevance and/or incompetence embodied in the list of "Scholars for 9/11 Truth", I can't stop myself from automatically calling it by what seems to be a fuller and more apt title: "Incompetent and Irrelevant Scholars for 9/11 Truth". Ah well.
RC.
.
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 23 2006, 05:03 AM)
QUOTE (yesitdid+Feb 23 2006, 04:54 AM)
metamars states:
Then Foxx states:
Then Foxx states:
Nevertheless, none of 'you' have provided ANY evidence that these 'free-falling' sections were actually 'outpacing' the fall of yet-to-be impacted 'intact sections'
Why don't the two of you talk it over then?
Uhhhhh.... not quite sure what yid is referring to here.
What about it metamars?
Do you see conflicts in the above quotes between us?
Perhaps I am missing something here?
Do you not see a really, really basic conflict between the statement, "the visual evidence is overwhelming in that the large, falling debris pieces were at least 20 floors below an uncollapsed, straight portion of a tower, when the collapse was roughly only about 1/2 over" and the statement, "Nevertheless, none of 'you' have provided ANY evidence that these 'free-falling' sections were actually 'outpacing' the fall of yet-to-be impacted 'intact sections?'"
Obviously, your brain don't hurt; obviously, you haven't GOT a brain.
QUOTE
Recall that the visual evidence is overwhelming in that the large, falling debris pieces were at least 20 floors below an uncollapsed, straight portion of a tower, when the collapse was roughly only about 1/2 over.
Then Foxx states:
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Recall that the visual evidence is overwhelming in that the large, falling debris pieces were at least 20 floors below an uncollapsed, straight portion of a tower, when the collapse was roughly only about 1/2 over. |
Then Foxx states:
Nevertheless, none of 'you' have provided ANY evidence that these 'free-falling' sections were actually 'outpacing' the fall of yet-to-be impacted 'intact sections'
Why don't the two of you talk it over then?
Uhhhhh.... not quite sure what yid is referring to here.
What about it metamars?
Do you see conflicts in the above quotes between us?
Perhaps I am missing something here?
Do you not see a really, really basic conflict between the statement, "the visual evidence is overwhelming in that the large, falling debris pieces were at least 20 floors below an uncollapsed, straight portion of a tower, when the collapse was roughly only about 1/2 over" and the statement, "Nevertheless, none of 'you' have provided ANY evidence that these 'free-falling' sections were actually 'outpacing' the fall of yet-to-be impacted 'intact sections?'"
Obviously, your brain don't hurt; obviously, you haven't GOT a brain.
QUOTE (yesitdid+Feb 23 2006, 06:17 AM)
Well, wadda ya know. I person from my own town is on the "Scholars for 9/11 Truth".
Small world, now I will always look at him/her differently.
mmmmmmBwahahahahahaha, I bet. I sure would.
Meanwhile,
Small world, now I will always look at him/her differently.
mmmmmmBwahahahahahaha, I bet. I sure would.
Meanwhile,
QUOTE
There's no way ahead of time they would know the exact location of that damaged zone, which is why I believe they had to have feedback sensores to adjust the timing.
Oh, no! Supurrrating sensores, Batman! Is that Alburt Eynestien I sea?
QUOTE (yesitdid+Feb 23 2006, 06:17 AM)
Well, wadda ya know. I person from my own town is on the "Scholars for 9/11 Truth".
Small world, now I will always look at him/her differently.
you gonna have this person 'commit suicide'?
Small world, now I will always look at him/her differently.
you gonna have this person 'commit suicide'?
QUOTE (newton+Feb 23 2006, 07:28 AM)
QUOTE (yesitdid+Feb 23 2006, 06:17 AM)
Well, wadda ya know. I person from my own town is on the "Scholars for 9/11 Truth".
Small world, now I will always look at him/her differently.
you gonna have this person 'commit suicide'?
Hi newton!
I see you're as witty, irrelevant and incompetent as ever. Good show!
PS: Will you be joining "Incompetent Irrelevant Scholars for 9/11 Truth" any time soon? Or did I miss your name on that list of exemplary uselessness of theirs?
RC.
.
Small world, now I will always look at him/her differently.
you gonna have this person 'commit suicide'?
Hi newton!
I see you're as witty, irrelevant and incompetent as ever. Good show!
PS: Will you be joining "Incompetent Irrelevant Scholars for 9/11 Truth" any time soon? Or did I miss your name on that list of exemplary uselessness of theirs?
RC.
.
ooo. it hurts. wah.
so much hate.
sad.
so much hate.
sad.
Commen sense strikes again....
QUOTE (Common Sense+Feb 22 2006, 09:55 PM)
WTC construction...
I've been plowing through this thread.
Someone tell me, where does this ridiculous diagram - supposedly of the WTC with no central core columns - come from? Is someone seriously suggesting this is the design of the WTC towers?

http://physics911.ca/gallery2/d/7735-4/framed-tube.jpg
Framed tube construction principle: load-bearing external walls stiffened by the floors to form a torsionally rigid tube
13 Load-bearing external wall
17 Core box column
20 Floor slab
Note that the buildings are stiffened by the composite steel-concrete floors. The floors are an integral part of the structural system. Without the composite floor slabs, the buildings would soon collapse.
Image from Multi-Storey Buildings in Steel, 1978. This book contains some of the only architectural diagrams of WTC1 and WTC2 available to the public, as the actual blueprints are under legal lock and key

http://physics911.ca/gallery2/d/7753-3/floor-plan.gif

http://physics911.ca/gallery2/d/9081-2/site1099_001.jpg
The Towers Had Robust Self-Supporting Core Structures
* 47 box columns a yard wide, steel 4" thick at base
* Abundantly cross-braced
* Capable of supporting the entire weight of building
* Anchored directly to bedrock
* Did not depend on floor diaphragms for support

http://physics911.ca/gallery2/d/6064-4/mage6.jpg
Each tower was supported by a structural core extending from its bedrock foundation to its roof. The cores were rectangular pillars with numerous large columns and girders, measuring 87 feet by 133 feet. The core structures housed the elevators, stairs, and other services. The cores had their own flooring systems, which were structurally independent of the floor diaphragms that spanned the space between the cores and the perimeter walls. The core structures, like the perimeter wall structures, were 100 percent steel-framed.
Reports on the number of core columns vary from 44 to 47. The exact arrangement of the columns is not known due to the secrecy of detailed engineering drawings of the towers. It is clear from photographs, such as the one below, that the core columns were abundantly cross-braced.
I've been plowing through this thread.
Someone tell me, where does this ridiculous diagram - supposedly of the WTC with no central core columns - come from? Is someone seriously suggesting this is the design of the WTC towers?

http://physics911.ca/gallery2/d/7735-4/framed-tube.jpg
Framed tube construction principle: load-bearing external walls stiffened by the floors to form a torsionally rigid tube
13 Load-bearing external wall
17 Core box column
20 Floor slab
Note that the buildings are stiffened by the composite steel-concrete floors. The floors are an integral part of the structural system. Without the composite floor slabs, the buildings would soon collapse.
Image from Multi-Storey Buildings in Steel, 1978. This book contains some of the only architectural diagrams of WTC1 and WTC2 available to the public, as the actual blueprints are under legal lock and key

http://physics911.ca/gallery2/d/7753-3/floor-plan.gif

http://physics911.ca/gallery2/d/9081-2/site1099_001.jpg
The Towers Had Robust Self-Supporting Core Structures
* 47 box columns a yard wide, steel 4" thick at base
* Abundantly cross-braced
* Capable of supporting the entire weight of building
* Anchored directly to bedrock
* Did not depend on floor diaphragms for support

http://physics911.ca/gallery2/d/6064-4/mage6.jpg
Each tower was supported by a structural core extending from its bedrock foundation to its roof. The cores were rectangular pillars with numerous large columns and girders, measuring 87 feet by 133 feet. The core structures housed the elevators, stairs, and other services. The cores had their own flooring systems, which were structurally independent of the floor diaphragms that spanned the space between the cores and the perimeter walls. The core structures, like the perimeter wall structures, were 100 percent steel-framed.
Reports on the number of core columns vary from 44 to 47. The exact arrangement of the columns is not known due to the secrecy of detailed engineering drawings of the towers. It is clear from photographs, such as the one below, that the core columns were abundantly cross-braced.
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Feb 23 2006, 04:58 AM)
QUOTE (metamars+Feb 23 2006, 04:32 AM)
I recently commented on the janedoe web page, privately. As the web page is public, I now reproduce my comments, edited slightly.
=============================================
Overall, this strikes me as not very useful, and even misleading. It reminds of Bazant-Zhou's "elastic dynamic analysis", which is only OK if you don't take it seriously.
As you know, I believe the towers were deliberately destroyed. In fact, I find the visual evidence of the collapses alone overwhelming - note that not even NIST made any attempt to show what dust/air jets throwing ejecta outwards would look like even if only at the very beginning of a collapse. Perhaps even they could not tweak their model to make this phenomena "appear", even for one floor. (More likely, of course, is that they didn't want to draw attention to it at all, since it doesn't fit the Fairy Tale very well. They were silent on many other damning pieces of evidence, also.)
Even so, we need to be honest and fair about how we go about things. This means, among other things, that if you simplify a model to make calculations easier, you cannot do so in a way that (significantly) favors the hypothesis you favor, when you are claiming to disprove one you do not. So, it's just fine to make assumptions in FEMA/NIST's favor, and then show that even so, their version of things doesn't hold water.
If your goal is specifically to disprove FEMA/NIST's handwaiving re global collapse (I here avoid dignifying it by calling it "collective intuition", though I have done so, at times) then you cannot make simplifying assumptions which goes against FEMA/NIST, and then say "Aha, they are wrong!".* This has no meaning.
With these preliminaries out of the way, let's take a closer look. But first a final caveat.
Because we cannot know, with a great deal of precision, how much of the buildings were turned to dust and how much was not, for the purposes of these calculations it is not reasonable to assume 100% was turned to dust (even if you suspect, based on the visual evidence, that, say, 80% was turned to dust)
Once you accept that not ALL the buildings were turned to dust, you have to accept that the non-dust portions, falling within the buildings' footprints, must have transferred downward momentum on their way down. Thus, you cannot ignore momentum transfers and be taken seriously.
Come to think of it, we COULD have gotten a good handle on the relative proportions of dust/non-dust by separating the two from a known volume, and then just weighing. Also, we COULD have then separated out the steel from the non-dust and weighed what was left over (according to Hoffman, and the pictures I've seen, basically very little.)
Case 1: Free-fall time of a billiard ball dropped from the roof of WTC1, in a vacuum
================================================================================
=====
This is high school physics, which nobody is going to seriously argue about.
Case 2: ‘Progressive Collapse’ in ten-floor intervals
=====================================================
This completely ignores the fact that upper floors would transfer significant momentum to the floors they are impacting, and furthermore, that the ratio of "available" momentum to inertia would rapidly grow. So, while they assume no resistance, which would strongly favor FEMA/NIST, this other assertion strongly disfavors NIST. Thus, it's of no value in disproving NIST. It doesn't prove anything relevant to the real world case, one way or another.
Case 3: ‘Progressive Collapse’ in one-floor intervals
======================================================
I found this kind of interesting, mostly because it's so unintuitive. I, for one, certainly don't think that a downwardly collapsing part of the building will transfer ALL of it's momentum to the floor being impacted, even if only instantaneously.
Since it's so unlikely in it's premises, unless the author can present any reason why we should take these premises seriously, I don't see why we should take it's conclusion seriously, either. Also, note that the analogy with the gizmo with the hanging balls is misleading, since these undergo (mostly) elastic collisions. Collapsing floors in the real world, however, are going to undergo inelastic collisions.
The questions asked in this section, BTW, are spot on. The collapses exhibited a high degree of symmetry, and the WTC 7 collapse was so nearly perfectly symmetrical that I'm impressed that this could be carried out with such precision, even deliberately.
Case 4: ‘Progressive Collapse’ at near free-fall speed
========================================================
This is interesting, but of little value in disproving NIST/FEMA, since they will claim that most of the top of the building was not dust (never mind what it looks like), and thus you can't ignore momentum transfers, which this calculation does.*
So, is it of value in showing how the demolition actually did take place? Perhaps it is, somewhat, though it seems fatally flawed to me in assuming that the "total" collapse time was 9.22 seconds.
Recall that the visual evidence is overwhelming in that the large, falling debris pieces were at least 20 floors below an uncollapsed, straight portion of a tower, when the collapse was roughly only about 1/2 over. It is not reasonable to assume a free fall time (or free fall time plus only 1 second, say).
For accurate discussions of collapse times, see Hoffman.
* Well, if you could somehow get quantitative limits, that you are very comfortable with, that follow from making simplyfying assumptions against NIST/FEMA, that still don't come close to changing the results, then you are still on safe ground. But nothing of the sort is calculated herein.
Hi metamars!
IIRC, early on here Foxx went to great pains to show how the HAT TRUSS structures (which extended over a few levels at the top of the towers) were HUGE, STRONG and MASSIVE. I can imagine threfore that the upper portions of the towers were less like a collection of rubble and more like a STRONG 'cage-like' structure that 'collected' rubble into its 'interstices' space, all of which together formed a VAST and HEAVY 'tight plug' of falling mass for quite a ways down before IT finally disintegrated into its separate 'pieces'. So any analysis that ignores this MAJOR WEIGHT/IMPULSE factor will not be representative.
I remind you that it was Foxx who drilled it into me that the HAT TRUSS WAS A MAJORLY STRONG AND HEAVY-DUTY STRUCTURE IN ITS OWN RIGHT; and that if the 'legs' were knocked out from under such a structure (at the plane-impact/fire levels), then this SIGNIFICANT temporarily-coherent 'PISTON' should be taken into account as well as all the lower-level random/chaotic goings on.
What do YOU think, meta?
RC.
.
What I think is that the destruction of WTC7 was so obviously a CD, that there is little need to argue about it. Activists should place a video of that in the hands of every engineer / physicist /scientist in the country, and they will know what to make of it, or at least what questions need to be answered to nail down the matter, in their own minds. I in no way think that the ever-bountiful reasons, advanced by the "popes", for things happening the way they did would impress scientists - not in this case, anyway.
WTC 1 & 2 , considered in toto, are also demolitions of some type, but it is unknown to me if local collapses could have occurred. NIST claims to have shown this, but their report is self-contradictory (if I read Hoffman correctly), and if I read Professor Jones correctly, fraudulent.
But you already knew my thought on these subjects, didn't you?
Your description of the hat truss is very wordy, and not quantitative, at all. It's now over 4 years after the fact, and it's a damning indictment of our society that there has not occurred thorough investigations, which would explain, as much as possible, what happened to WTC 1,2,& 7. Hopefully, Scholar's for 911 Truth will rectify some of this sorry situation.
==============
Have recently seen the movie, "The Constant Gardener", which, I believe, is realistic, even if this exact story is fiction. One wonders what hope there is for homo sapiens, given our record in annhilating one another.
=============================================
Overall, this strikes me as not very useful, and even misleading. It reminds of Bazant-Zhou's "elastic dynamic analysis", which is only OK if you don't take it seriously.
As you know, I believe the towers were deliberately destroyed. In fact, I find the visual evidence of the collapses alone overwhelming - note that not even NIST made any attempt to show what dust/air jets throwing ejecta outwards would look like even if only at the very beginning of a collapse. Perhaps even they could not tweak their model to make this phenomena "appear", even for one floor. (More likely, of course, is that they didn't want to draw attention to it at all, since it doesn't fit the Fairy Tale very well. They were silent on many other damning pieces of evidence, also.)
Even so, we need to be honest and fair about how we go about things. This means, among other things, that if you simplify a model to make calculations easier, you cannot do so in a way that (significantly) favors the hypothesis you favor, when you are claiming to disprove one you do not. So, it's just fine to make assumptions in FEMA/NIST's favor, and then show that even so, their version of things doesn't hold water.
If your goal is specifically to disprove FEMA/NIST's handwaiving re global collapse (I here avoid dignifying it by calling it "collective intuition", though I have done so, at times) then you cannot make simplifying assumptions which goes against FEMA/NIST, and then say "Aha, they are wrong!".* This has no meaning.
With these preliminaries out of the way, let's take a closer look. But first a final caveat.
Because we cannot know, with a great deal of precision, how much of the buildings were turned to dust and how much was not, for the purposes of these calculations it is not reasonable to assume 100% was turned to dust (even if you suspect, based on the visual evidence, that, say, 80% was turned to dust)
Once you accept that not ALL the buildings were turned to dust, you have to accept that the non-dust portions, falling within the buildings' footprints, must have transferred downward momentum on their way down. Thus, you cannot ignore momentum transfers and be taken seriously.
Come to think of it, we COULD have gotten a good handle on the relative proportions of dust/non-dust by separating the two from a known volume, and then just weighing. Also, we COULD have then separated out the steel from the non-dust and weighed what was left over (according to Hoffman, and the pictures I've seen, basically very little.)
Case 1: Free-fall time of a billiard ball dropped from the roof of WTC1, in a vacuum
================================================================================
=====
This is high school physics, which nobody is going to seriously argue about.
Case 2: ‘Progressive Collapse’ in ten-floor intervals
=====================================================
This completely ignores the fact that upper floors would transfer significant momentum to the floors they are impacting, and furthermore, that the ratio of "available" momentum to inertia would rapidly grow. So, while they assume no resistance, which would strongly favor FEMA/NIST, this other assertion strongly disfavors NIST. Thus, it's of no value in disproving NIST. It doesn't prove anything relevant to the real world case, one way or another.
Case 3: ‘Progressive Collapse’ in one-floor intervals
======================================================
I found this kind of interesting, mostly because it's so unintuitive. I, for one, certainly don't think that a downwardly collapsing part of the building will transfer ALL of it's momentum to the floor being impacted, even if only instantaneously.
Since it's so unlikely in it's premises, unless the author can present any reason why we should take these premises seriously, I don't see why we should take it's conclusion seriously, either. Also, note that the analogy with the gizmo with the hanging balls is misleading, since these undergo (mostly) elastic collisions. Collapsing floors in the real world, however, are going to undergo inelastic collisions.
The questions asked in this section, BTW, are spot on. The collapses exhibited a high degree of symmetry, and the WTC 7 collapse was so nearly perfectly symmetrical that I'm impressed that this could be carried out with such precision, even deliberately.
Case 4: ‘Progressive Collapse’ at near free-fall speed
========================================================
This is interesting, but of little value in disproving NIST/FEMA, since they will claim that most of the top of the building was not dust (never mind what it looks like), and thus you can't ignore momentum transfers, which this calculation does.*
So, is it of value in showing how the demolition actually did take place? Perhaps it is, somewhat, though it seems fatally flawed to me in assuming that the "total" collapse time was 9.22 seconds.
Recall that the visual evidence is overwhelming in that the large, falling debris pieces were at least 20 floors below an uncollapsed, straight portion of a tower, when the collapse was roughly only about 1/2 over. It is not reasonable to assume a free fall time (or free fall time plus only 1 second, say).
For accurate discussions of collapse times, see Hoffman.
* Well, if you could somehow get quantitative limits, that you are very comfortable with, that follow from making simplyfying assumptions against NIST/FEMA, that still don't come close to changing the results, then you are still on safe ground. But nothing of the sort is calculated herein.
Hi metamars!
IIRC, early on here Foxx went to great pains to show how the HAT TRUSS structures (which extended over a few levels at the top of the towers) were HUGE, STRONG and MASSIVE. I can imagine threfore that the upper portions of the towers were less like a collection of rubble and more like a STRONG 'cage-like' structure that 'collected' rubble into its 'interstices' space, all of which together formed a VAST and HEAVY 'tight plug' of falling mass for quite a ways down before IT finally disintegrated into its separate 'pieces'. So any analysis that ignores this MAJOR WEIGHT/IMPULSE factor will not be representative.
I remind you that it was Foxx who drilled it into me that the HAT TRUSS WAS A MAJORLY STRONG AND HEAVY-DUTY STRUCTURE IN ITS OWN RIGHT; and that if the 'legs' were knocked out from under such a structure (at the plane-impact/fire levels), then this SIGNIFICANT temporarily-coherent 'PISTON' should be taken into account as well as all the lower-level random/chaotic goings on.
What do YOU think, meta?
RC.
.
What I think is that the destruction of WTC7 was so obviously a CD, that there is little need to argue about it. Activists should place a video of that in the hands of every engineer / physicist /scientist in the country, and they will know what to make of it, or at least what questions need to be answered to nail down the matter, in their own minds. I in no way think that the ever-bountiful reasons, advanced by the "popes", for things happening the way they did would impress scientists - not in this case, anyway.
WTC 1 & 2 , considered in toto, are also demolitions of some type, but it is unknown to me if local collapses could have occurred. NIST claims to have shown this, but their report is self-contradictory (if I read Hoffman correctly), and if I read Professor Jones correctly, fraudulent.
But you already knew my thought on these subjects, didn't you?
Your description of the hat truss is very wordy, and not quantitative, at all. It's now over 4 years after the fact, and it's a damning indictment of our society that there has not occurred thorough investigations, which would explain, as much as possible, what happened to WTC 1,2,& 7. Hopefully, Scholar's for 911 Truth will rectify some of this sorry situation.
==============
Have recently seen the movie, "The Constant Gardener", which, I believe, is realistic, even if this exact story is fiction. One wonders what hope there is for homo sapiens, given our record in annhilating one another.
QUOTE (Schneibster+Feb 23 2006, 07:08 AM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 23 2006, 05:03 AM)
QUOTE (yesitdid+Feb 23 2006, 04:54 AM)
metamars states:
Then Foxx states:
Then Foxx states:
Nevertheless, none of 'you' have provided ANY evidence that these 'free-falling' sections were actually 'outpacing' the fall of yet-to-be impacted 'intact sections'
Why don't the two of you talk it over then?
Uhhhhh.... not quite sure what yid is referring to here.
What about it metamars?
Do you see conflicts in the above quotes between us?
Perhaps I am missing something here?
Do you not see a really, really basic conflict between the statement, "the visual evidence is overwhelming in that the large, falling debris pieces were at least 20 floors below an uncollapsed, straight portion of a tower, when the collapse was roughly only about 1/2 over" and the statement, "Nevertheless, none of 'you' have provided ANY evidence that these 'free-falling' sections were actually 'outpacing' the fall of yet-to-be impacted 'intact sections?'"
Obviously, your brain don't hurt; obviously, you haven't GOT a brain.
Foxx is not a pope, and therefore, imperfect. There's some photos that clearly show the lowest part of the collapsing debris is at least 20 stories below a "perfectly" straight, unbowed corner of the building. (It's visible because the expanding dust clouds from the faces of the buildings haven't met outwards of the corner)
Which certainly does not disprove CD....
QUOTE
Recall that the visual evidence is overwhelming in that the large, falling debris pieces were at least 20 floors below an uncollapsed, straight portion of a tower, when the collapse was roughly only about 1/2 over.
Then Foxx states:
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Recall that the visual evidence is overwhelming in that the large, falling debris pieces were at least 20 floors below an uncollapsed, straight portion of a tower, when the collapse was roughly only about 1/2 over. |
Then Foxx states:
Nevertheless, none of 'you' have provided ANY evidence that these 'free-falling' sections were actually 'outpacing' the fall of yet-to-be impacted 'intact sections'
Why don't the two of you talk it over then?
Uhhhhh.... not quite sure what yid is referring to here.
What about it metamars?
Do you see conflicts in the above quotes between us?
Perhaps I am missing something here?
Do you not see a really, really basic conflict between the statement, "the visual evidence is overwhelming in that the large, falling debris pieces were at least 20 floors below an uncollapsed, straight portion of a tower, when the collapse was roughly only about 1/2 over" and the statement, "Nevertheless, none of 'you' have provided ANY evidence that these 'free-falling' sections were actually 'outpacing' the fall of yet-to-be impacted 'intact sections?'"
Obviously, your brain don't hurt; obviously, you haven't GOT a brain.
Foxx is not a pope, and therefore, imperfect. There's some photos that clearly show the lowest part of the collapsing debris is at least 20 stories below a "perfectly" straight, unbowed corner of the building. (It's visible because the expanding dust clouds from the faces of the buildings haven't met outwards of the corner)
Which certainly does not disprove CD....
I was talking with a friend tonight about the collapse of the Twin Towers, and he proposed that the collapse was due to the fact that steel has very poor compressive strength as compared to tensile strength. In his view this lack of compressive strength is the key to the buildings collapse.
Note: My friend believes that 9/11 was probably an inside job, but questions the controlled demolition hypothesis.
I pointed out to him that the "pancake" theory of the global collapse does not postulate that weakness of the core columns was a critical factor, and that the global collapse was not a result of buckling of core columns, but, rather was due to the overload of the concrete slabs on individual floors from the pressure of the floors falling upon them from above.
The collapse, according to NIST, was initiated due to weakening of core columns on floors affected by fire. Therefore, the compressive strength of the columns is not the key factor in the collapse scenario.
I would like to point out that I am not personally committed to the controlled demolition hypothesis. I am genuinely interested in reasoned arguments which support the official theory.
(: hereward
Note: My friend believes that 9/11 was probably an inside job, but questions the controlled demolition hypothesis.
I pointed out to him that the "pancake" theory of the global collapse does not postulate that weakness of the core columns was a critical factor, and that the global collapse was not a result of buckling of core columns, but, rather was due to the overload of the concrete slabs on individual floors from the pressure of the floors falling upon them from above.
The collapse, according to NIST, was initiated due to weakening of core columns on floors affected by fire. Therefore, the compressive strength of the columns is not the key factor in the collapse scenario.
I would like to point out that I am not personally committed to the controlled demolition hypothesis. I am genuinely interested in reasoned arguments which support the official theory.
(: hereward
It has been noted that Dr Greening’s report is now available having undergone some alteration.
However there remain serious flaws within the assumptions made and these are having the effect of rendering the conclusions almost worthless.
The main flaw in this report, regarding the collapse is contained within the authors derivation and use of the strain energy requirements to collapse a single floor.
This flaw has as its source the assumptions implied within the bottom paragraph of page 19. The author states, “As noted in Section 4.2 the 236 perimeter and 47 core support columns have an effective cross sectional area of …..10.15 m^2.………we conclude that the supports at a given floor would fail if the downward compressive load exceeded about 4000MN.”
The author then goes on to compute a “collapse safety factor of about 3” for that storey.
The author is stating that the same amount of force would be required to produce failure in any of the storeys. This is plainly wrong since the upper storeys were made of relatively light material section and in some portions, I-section columns, whereas the bottom storeys comprised relatively heavy section box columns.
The author seems to apply a belief that the tower support structures were of the same cross sectional area throughout the height of the tower.
A similar flaw occurs when the author discusses strain energy. Firstly and most importantly he uses the same value, 600MJ, for each of the storeys within the structure. There is no way this can be true and the values would lie over a wide range. For instance the 100th storey normally carries the ten storeys and the hat truss above and would be built with this in mind. The tenth floor would carry 100 upper storeys and the hat truss, so its geometry would reflect this. The author’s use of a constant value for this strain energy requirement does not reflect the situation which actually did exist.
Neither does the author take regard of the elastic strain energy absorbed by storeys other than the topmost storey of the lower section. To be able to cause a failure in those storey columns a force would have to be exerted by the falling upper section and this force would also act on all of the storeys below the impact and also on those above the impact point. The initial impact force exerted and thus the force required to cause buckling failure at the upper levels would not be sufficient to cause these failures at lower levels, but the effect of the force would still be some elastic deflection of all other storeys. The size of the deflection caused would vary from storey to storey and would be in the same ratios as the static load ratios for each storey. The energy requirement for this energy would vary dependent upon the number of storeys remaining but would always be a prerequisite to continued collapse.
The effect of ignoring this phenomenon is to ignore a large energy requirement that has to be satisfied before the collapse can continue. The energy ignored would be the difference between the average of the applied load over one storey’s resultant elastic deflection, and the average of the applied load over all storeys resultant elastic deflection.
The author examines the distance over which the failure load would act and these figures he gives are around 0.11 metres (p31)from a storey height of 3.7m. So he contends that after less than 3% of its length the columns would thereafter offer no further resistance to the falling mass. This contradicts accepted theory most notably contained within BZ that a minimum 3% vertical deflection would be required to even initiate buckling points. BZ show that the required force reduces from that point but it does not at any time fall below 25% of the initial failure value.
The author justifies his use of these small values of deflection by stating that actual failure occurred in the fixings between column sections rather than column failure itself . But this cannot be the case because we know from BZ that buckling points would only appear after 3% vertical deflection. There would be no buckle points at the vertical deflections used by the authors. Buckle points or a horizontal deflection of the column midpoint are necessary for the downward acting mass force to be able to gain a moment through which to apply a force on the fixings.
No buckling=> no moment=> no force=> no failure.
The author at one point suggests he is using compressive failure modes. Again the contention that total and catastrophic failure, resulting in an inability to transmit any force whatsoever, would occur after a deflection of only 3% is contradictory to accepted knowledge of compressive failures, which exhibit deformations of up to 40% with varying load requirements before ultimate failure results in an inability to carry any load whatsoever.
Neither do his own figures tie together
His figure of a failure load for storey 80 was 4000MN.(p19) This force acting over a distance of 0.11 metres would give a maximum energy requirement of 440MJ. But this is in contradiction to his figure for energy requirements to collapse one storey, being 600 MJ.
For these two figures to be satisfied it would be required that the force acted over a distance of a minimum of 0.15metres and in actuality a greater distance than this since the load would be zero at time = 0 rising to a maximum. The author gives no reason for this discrepancy.
Let us now examine the actual value of strain energy requirement for collapse. The author has identified the strain energy requirement for the first 3% of the vertical deflection of the buckling columns. We know from BZ that the remaining 97% of the vertical deflection will require a further energy input of some ten times this amount. So using a very rough approximation we can argue that the energy requirement is of the order of some ten times greater than the value used by the author. Even if we included a factor to allow a pessimistic view of early fracture and did this by allowing that only half of this additional requirement has to be met, we can see that the new value would still be of the order of some five times greater than the value used by the author.
To demonstrate the relative size of the energies involved let us assume for the moment that the aircraft was travelling slightly faster than the author has assumed, and let that assumption be that the velocity was 240ms^-1 rather than the 220ms^-1. This is not an absurd suggestion since it reflects the velocity given by the NIST report. We now see that the aircraft impact energy would be increased from the 3.0 x 10^9 J which the author uses to about 3.6 x 10^9 J. Thus an additional 600MJ would be available and according to the authors figures this would be sufficient to take out all of the perimeter columns and all the core columns on one entire storey. This would be in addition to the damage which we did witness being caused. Is this realistic? The aircraft velocity increased by a mere 20ms^-1, now has the energy to destroy an additional entire storey? This in itself casts doubt upon the relative size of these figures.
So what can be salvaged from this report? The author has demonstrated that the collapse times which were actually observed on the day, were consistent with a value of strain energy requirement to collapse each floor of around 600 - 800 MJ. Thus it can be shown that only by application of strain energy requirements of this order could the observed collapse times have been achieved. Since the values of strain energy were demonstrably higher than those used by the author we must conclude that since the observed collapse times were achieved then some mechanism must have applied in order for the energy requirements to be reduced to the levels used by the author. Without the removal of that ability the collapse times could not have been achieved.
Gordon Ross 23rd February 2006
However there remain serious flaws within the assumptions made and these are having the effect of rendering the conclusions almost worthless.
The main flaw in this report, regarding the collapse is contained within the authors derivation and use of the strain energy requirements to collapse a single floor.
This flaw has as its source the assumptions implied within the bottom paragraph of page 19. The author states, “As noted in Section 4.2 the 236 perimeter and 47 core support columns have an effective cross sectional area of …..10.15 m^2.………we conclude that the supports at a given floor would fail if the downward compressive load exceeded about 4000MN.”
The author then goes on to compute a “collapse safety factor of about 3” for that storey.
The author is stating that the same amount of force would be required to produce failure in any of the storeys. This is plainly wrong since the upper storeys were made of relatively light material section and in some portions, I-section columns, whereas the bottom storeys comprised relatively heavy section box columns.
The author seems to apply a belief that the tower support structures were of the same cross sectional area throughout the height of the tower.
A similar flaw occurs when the author discusses strain energy. Firstly and most importantly he uses the same value, 600MJ, for each of the storeys within the structure. There is no way this can be true and the values would lie over a wide range. For instance the 100th storey normally carries the ten storeys and the hat truss above and would be built with this in mind. The tenth floor would carry 100 upper storeys and the hat truss, so its geometry would reflect this. The author’s use of a constant value for this strain energy requirement does not reflect the situation which actually did exist.
Neither does the author take regard of the elastic strain energy absorbed by storeys other than the topmost storey of the lower section. To be able to cause a failure in those storey columns a force would have to be exerted by the falling upper section and this force would also act on all of the storeys below the impact and also on those above the impact point. The initial impact force exerted and thus the force required to cause buckling failure at the upper levels would not be sufficient to cause these failures at lower levels, but the effect of the force would still be some elastic deflection of all other storeys. The size of the deflection caused would vary from storey to storey and would be in the same ratios as the static load ratios for each storey. The energy requirement for this energy would vary dependent upon the number of storeys remaining but would always be a prerequisite to continued collapse.
The effect of ignoring this phenomenon is to ignore a large energy requirement that has to be satisfied before the collapse can continue. The energy ignored would be the difference between the average of the applied load over one storey’s resultant elastic deflection, and the average of the applied load over all storeys resultant elastic deflection.
The author examines the distance over which the failure load would act and these figures he gives are around 0.11 metres (p31)from a storey height of 3.7m. So he contends that after less than 3% of its length the columns would thereafter offer no further resistance to the falling mass. This contradicts accepted theory most notably contained within BZ that a minimum 3% vertical deflection would be required to even initiate buckling points. BZ show that the required force reduces from that point but it does not at any time fall below 25% of the initial failure value.
The author justifies his use of these small values of deflection by stating that actual failure occurred in the fixings between column sections rather than column failure itself . But this cannot be the case because we know from BZ that buckling points would only appear after 3% vertical deflection. There would be no buckle points at the vertical deflections used by the authors. Buckle points or a horizontal deflection of the column midpoint are necessary for the downward acting mass force to be able to gain a moment through which to apply a force on the fixings.
No buckling=> no moment=> no force=> no failure.
The author at one point suggests he is using compressive failure modes. Again the contention that total and catastrophic failure, resulting in an inability to transmit any force whatsoever, would occur after a deflection of only 3% is contradictory to accepted knowledge of compressive failures, which exhibit deformations of up to 40% with varying load requirements before ultimate failure results in an inability to carry any load whatsoever.
Neither do his own figures tie together
His figure of a failure load for storey 80 was 4000MN.(p19) This force acting over a distance of 0.11 metres would give a maximum energy requirement of 440MJ. But this is in contradiction to his figure for energy requirements to collapse one storey, being 600 MJ.
For these two figures to be satisfied it would be required that the force acted over a distance of a minimum of 0.15metres and in actuality a greater distance than this since the load would be zero at time = 0 rising to a maximum. The author gives no reason for this discrepancy.
Let us now examine the actual value of strain energy requirement for collapse. The author has identified the strain energy requirement for the first 3% of the vertical deflection of the buckling columns. We know from BZ that the remaining 97% of the vertical deflection will require a further energy input of some ten times this amount. So using a very rough approximation we can argue that the energy requirement is of the order of some ten times greater than the value used by the author. Even if we included a factor to allow a pessimistic view of early fracture and did this by allowing that only half of this additional requirement has to be met, we can see that the new value would still be of the order of some five times greater than the value used by the author.
To demonstrate the relative size of the energies involved let us assume for the moment that the aircraft was travelling slightly faster than the author has assumed, and let that assumption be that the velocity was 240ms^-1 rather than the 220ms^-1. This is not an absurd suggestion since it reflects the velocity given by the NIST report. We now see that the aircraft impact energy would be increased from the 3.0 x 10^9 J which the author uses to about 3.6 x 10^9 J. Thus an additional 600MJ would be available and according to the authors figures this would be sufficient to take out all of the perimeter columns and all the core columns on one entire storey. This would be in addition to the damage which we did witness being caused. Is this realistic? The aircraft velocity increased by a mere 20ms^-1, now has the energy to destroy an additional entire storey? This in itself casts doubt upon the relative size of these figures.
So what can be salvaged from this report? The author has demonstrated that the collapse times which were actually observed on the day, were consistent with a value of strain energy requirement to collapse each floor of around 600 - 800 MJ. Thus it can be shown that only by application of strain energy requirements of this order could the observed collapse times have been achieved. Since the values of strain energy were demonstrably higher than those used by the author we must conclude that since the observed collapse times were achieved then some mechanism must have applied in order for the energy requirements to be reduced to the levels used by the author. Without the removal of that ability the collapse times could not have been achieved.
Gordon Ross 23rd February 2006
QUOTE (metamars+Feb 23 2006, 04:04 AM)
Hopefully, Scholar's for 911 Truth will rectify some of this sorry situation.
Were do you think Judy Woods article is linked from?
She is one of the most qualified at Scholar's for 911 Truth to write on the subject.
(Edited)
Her area of reaserch is FEA.
So in your opinion how is a partial energy transfer between floors going to speed the collapse of the towers? I would think the crushing of concrete would slow down the collapse.
Were do you think Judy Woods article is linked from?
QUOTE
• Well, if you could somehow get quantitative limits, that you are very comfortable with, that follow from making simplyfying assumptions against NIST/FEMA, that still don't come close to changing the results, then you are still on safe ground. But nothing of the sort is calculated herein.
She is one of the most qualified at Scholar's for 911 Truth to write on the subject.
(Edited)
Her area of reaserch is FEA.
So in your opinion how is a partial energy transfer between floors going to speed the collapse of the towers? I would think the crushing of concrete would slow down the collapse.
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Feb 23 2006, 03:56 PM)
QUOTE (metamars+Feb 23 2006, 04:04 AM)
Hopefully, Scholar's for 911 Truth will rectify some of this sorry situation.
Were do you think Judy Woods article is linked from?
She is one of the most qualified at Scholar's for 911 Truth to write on the subject. She teaches an FEA course and has written papers on the subject.
So in your opinion how is a partial energy transfer between floors going to speed the collapse of the towers?
I always knew Scholar's for 911 Truth would be bias to pro CD nonsense. People like MMC are already using the list of people both pro and con to imply they all believe in CD. Another con game.
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...indpost&p=64902
Tell me something, has she writen a paper on the CD of the towers which passed peer review? Heh!
Were do you think Judy Woods article is linked from?
QUOTE
• Well, if you could somehow get quantitative limits, that you are very comfortable with, that follow from making simplyfying assumptions against NIST/FEMA, that still don't come close to changing the results, then you are still on safe ground. But nothing of the sort is calculated herein.
She is one of the most qualified at Scholar's for 911 Truth to write on the subject. She teaches an FEA course and has written papers on the subject.
So in your opinion how is a partial energy transfer between floors going to speed the collapse of the towers?
I always knew Scholar's for 911 Truth would be bias to pro CD nonsense. People like MMC are already using the list of people both pro and con to imply they all believe in CD. Another con game.
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...indpost&p=64902
Tell me something, has she writen a paper on the CD of the towers which passed peer review? Heh!
Gordon, you're doing great.
Thank you.
Thank you.
QUOTE (Metamars+)
It's now over 4 years after the fact, and it's a damning indictment of our society that there has not occurred thorough investigations, which would explain, as much as possible, what happened to WTC 1,2,& 7.
Metamars see NIST FINAL report. WTC 7 is in the works.
Metamars see NIST FINAL report. WTC 7 is in the works.
QUOTE (Metamars Nov 2+ 2005)
Presumably, he is alluding to the NIST report. However, while I haven't read it, my understanding is that the NIST report ...
Arthur
Arthur
QUOTE (metamars+Feb 23 2006, 12:11 PM)
QUOTE (Schneibster+Feb 23 2006, 07:08 AM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 23 2006, 05:03 AM)
QUOTE (yesitdid+Feb 23 2006, 04:54 AM)
metamars states:
Then Foxx states:
Then Foxx states:
Nevertheless, none of 'you' have provided ANY evidence that these 'free-falling' sections were actually 'outpacing' the fall of yet-to-be impacted 'intact sections'
Why don't the two of you talk it over then?
Uhhhhh.... not quite sure what yid is referring to here.
What about it metamars?
Do you see conflicts in the above quotes between us?
Perhaps I am missing something here?
Do you not see a really, really basic conflict between the statement, "the visual evidence is overwhelming in that the large, falling debris pieces were at least 20 floors below an uncollapsed, straight portion of a tower, when the collapse was roughly only about 1/2 over" and the statement, "Nevertheless, none of 'you' have provided ANY evidence that these 'free-falling' sections were actually 'outpacing' the fall of yet-to-be impacted 'intact sections?'"
Obviously, your brain don't hurt; obviously, you haven't GOT a brain.
Foxx is not a pope, and therefore, imperfect. There's some photos that clearly show the lowest part of the collapsing debris is at least 20 stories below a "perfectly" straight, unbowed corner of the building. (It's visible because the expanding dust clouds from the faces of the buildings haven't met outwards of the corner)
Which certainly does not disprove CD....
Metamars, I thank you for recognizing me as apart from the 'pope'-group.
I have saved the relevant parts of your dissertation on the graphs under discussion, but I don't have time right now to discuss all my thoughts on this and Schneibers claims above. I still do not see that we are 'at-odds' at all in the quotes presented by Schneibster (and your response), but I will have to take some time to analyse how some are getting the impression that we are 'at-odds' on the issue. This might well be a poor choice of wording or explanation on my part, although looking at it from my perspective I thought I was being clear.
Based upon your dissertation of the graphs, I do see some disagreements I have with your analysis (upon my cursory reading of your post), but again I am too busy to respond at the moment, and will try to do so later. It's not a case of my thinking you may be 'wrong' in parts, but rather it seems that we are looking at the graphs from different viewpoints. It may well be that I am looking at them from an erroneous viewpoint, or perhaps just didn't understand your perspective upon my initial read.
Gordon, an excellent analysis of the Greening report. You have certainly clarified some of my suspicions regarding his errors. Metamars also did an excellent examination some time ago... but I don't remember whether that was posted here or was by PM. You set a good example in your calm and rational responses to those whom disagree with you... another nice trait I see in metamars postings.
Keep up the good work
Cheers from Canada - you are in the UK aren't you?
Ehhh ? Perhaps our definitions of Fox or Foxx are different? She seems quite intelligent and thoughtful to me. Plus she's got that winning smile when she looks at you, and says...
"oh arthur... you are such a silly goose"

QUOTE
Recall that the visual evidence is overwhelming in that the large, falling debris pieces were at least 20 floors below an uncollapsed, straight portion of a tower, when the collapse was roughly only about 1/2 over.
Then Foxx states:
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Recall that the visual evidence is overwhelming in that the large, falling debris pieces were at least 20 floors below an uncollapsed, straight portion of a tower, when the collapse was roughly only about 1/2 over. |
Then Foxx states:
Nevertheless, none of 'you' have provided ANY evidence that these 'free-falling' sections were actually 'outpacing' the fall of yet-to-be impacted 'intact sections'
Why don't the two of you talk it over then?
Uhhhhh.... not quite sure what yid is referring to here.
What about it metamars?
Do you see conflicts in the above quotes between us?
Perhaps I am missing something here?
Do you not see a really, really basic conflict between the statement, "the visual evidence is overwhelming in that the large, falling debris pieces were at least 20 floors below an uncollapsed, straight portion of a tower, when the collapse was roughly only about 1/2 over" and the statement, "Nevertheless, none of 'you' have provided ANY evidence that these 'free-falling' sections were actually 'outpacing' the fall of yet-to-be impacted 'intact sections?'"
Obviously, your brain don't hurt; obviously, you haven't GOT a brain.
Foxx is not a pope, and therefore, imperfect. There's some photos that clearly show the lowest part of the collapsing debris is at least 20 stories below a "perfectly" straight, unbowed corner of the building. (It's visible because the expanding dust clouds from the faces of the buildings haven't met outwards of the corner)
Which certainly does not disprove CD....
Metamars, I thank you for recognizing me as apart from the 'pope'-group.
I have saved the relevant parts of your dissertation on the graphs under discussion, but I don't have time right now to discuss all my thoughts on this and Schneibers claims above. I still do not see that we are 'at-odds' at all in the quotes presented by Schneibster (and your response), but I will have to take some time to analyse how some are getting the impression that we are 'at-odds' on the issue. This might well be a poor choice of wording or explanation on my part, although looking at it from my perspective I thought I was being clear.
Based upon your dissertation of the graphs, I do see some disagreements I have with your analysis (upon my cursory reading of your post), but again I am too busy to respond at the moment, and will try to do so later. It's not a case of my thinking you may be 'wrong' in parts, but rather it seems that we are looking at the graphs from different viewpoints. It may well be that I am looking at them from an erroneous viewpoint, or perhaps just didn't understand your perspective upon my initial read.
Gordon, an excellent analysis of the Greening report. You have certainly clarified some of my suspicions regarding his errors. Metamars also did an excellent examination some time ago... but I don't remember whether that was posted here or was by PM. You set a good example in your calm and rational responses to those whom disagree with you... another nice trait I see in metamars postings.
Keep up the good work
Cheers from Canada - you are in the UK aren't you?
QUOTE
by arthur
Hey Foxx, she's not a Fox, but at least you have a few things in common.
Hey Foxx, she's not a Fox, but at least you have a few things in common.
Ehhh ? Perhaps our definitions of Fox or Foxx are different? She seems quite intelligent and thoughtful to me. Plus she's got that winning smile when she looks at you, and says...
"oh arthur... you are such a silly goose"

nice work, gordon.
however, i noticed you left out the 'HOT CRUNCH', and 'SUPERSONIC BLASTWAVE', and other such solid realities pointed out by Reality Check, lol!
i think maybe i'll write a paper using all the whacky theories on the ostrich crowd. that would be funny. chock full of 'supersonic hot crunchy goodness'.
however, i noticed you left out the 'HOT CRUNCH', and 'SUPERSONIC BLASTWAVE', and other such solid realities pointed out by Reality Check, lol!
i think maybe i'll write a paper using all the whacky theories on the ostrich crowd. that would be funny. chock full of 'supersonic hot crunchy goodness'.
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 23 2006, 01:55 AM)
QUOTE (Foxx+)
Please refresh my memory through the search aspects of this forum and post my quote(s) stating that the towers fell at FREE-FALL rates.
SURE, glad to oblige.
The buildings fell as if they faced very little to NO resistance above air resistance.
Well, DUH!
I sorta THOUGHT that when you wrote that the buildings fell as if they faced NO resistance above AIR resistance, that that would be FREE FALL speeds.
Since in the PRECEEDING sentence you agree that we WEREN'T talking about Free Fall in a VACUUM.

Arthur
So Foxx, who has time to comment on the Foxyness of some woman, skips over his own Faux pas.
Figures.
Arthur
Reply from arthur...
Reply from arthur...
Well, DUH!
I sorta THOUGHT that when you wrote that the buildings fell as if they faced NO resistance above AIR resistance, that that would be FREE FALL speeds.
Since in the PRECEEDING sentence you agree that we WEREN'T talking about Free Fall in a VACUUM.
What are you babbling about?
Perhaps my inclusion of 'NO' resistance in the statement 'Little-to-No' is inappropriate or exaggerated.
Are you saying that the buildings fell as IF they faced far more resistance than simple air resistance
I have yet to see any quantitive figures which take into account the resistance overcome by the upper falling (or exploding) mass which can readily account for the actual time of fall... whether that be 9 seconds or 20 seconds.
All this babbling about 'free-fall'... 'close to free-fall'... mathematical and computer program analysis of 'speed-of-fall'... graphs... etc
are all based upon the fall of an object free-falling (or close to free-falling) from the height of the towers.
So great !!! , we have determined that this should be 'x'... then compare that with various estimates of the ACTUAL fall-times 'y'...
and we find a disparity in quantitative numbers.
This leads 'some' to the conclusion that "we have proven by physics & math that the buildings fell slower that IF they were in ACTUAL free-fall (by a matter of a few seconds)...
...absolutely TRUE --- but is no way 'proof' that the buildings COULD have fallen according to the gravity-driven scenarios within such close proximity to 'free-fall' / 'NO RESISTANCE').
So now the next step to determine is...
... to show quantitively HOW MUCH SLOWER they SHOULD have fallen (according to 'progessive collapse')...APART from added energy input.
This apparently should be quite easy to show.
I will look forward to see such computations.
Cheers
Hi frater - that particular schematic diagram comes from the PBS special - the NOVA / Eagar production which popularized the 'pancaking floors theory'...
...long since discredited !
I put together an analysis of the graphic obfuscations presented by the media to support this nonsense...
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/untitled001.html
Hope that helps to answer your questions.
Cheers
PS - not meant to diminish the evidence presented here...
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...indpost&p=67194
Reply from arthur...
Reply from arthur...
Well, DUH!
I sorta THOUGHT that when you wrote that the buildings fell as if they faced NO resistance above AIR resistance, that that would be FREE FALL speeds.
Since in the PRECEEDING sentence you agree that we WEREN'T talking about Free Fall in a VACUUM.
What are you babbling about?
Perhaps my inclusion of 'NO' resistance in the statement 'Little-to-No' is inappropriate or exaggerated.
Are you saying that the buildings fell as IF they faced far more resistance than simple air resistance
What a weasel.
Foxx uses the "it fell with NO resistance" as his "proof" that it must have been controlled demolition (which he has maintained from the start)
When he's caught in a contradiction, and called on it, the real WIERD part is he freaks and in his rush to defend himself, he chooses the NON CT side.
He says, Who ME? Show me where I (THE GREAT AND POWERFUL FOXX) claimed they fell at FREE FALL speed.
So since he's been saying this OVER AND OVER, it takes all of a few seconds to find.
Here's a different one (there's bunches)
Reply from arthur...
Reply from arthur...
Well, DUH!
I sorta THOUGHT that when you wrote that the buildings fell as if they faced NO resistance above AIR resistance, that that would be FREE FALL speeds.
Since in the PRECEEDING sentence you agree that we WEREN'T talking about Free Fall in a VACUUM.
What are you babbling about?
Perhaps my inclusion of 'NO' resistance in the statement 'Little-to-No' is inappropriate or exaggerated.
Are you saying that the buildings fell as IF they faced far more resistance than simple air resistance
What a weasel.
Foxx uses the "it fell with NO resistance" as his "proof" that it must have been controlled demolition (which he has maintained from the start)
When he's caught in a contradiction, and called on it, the real WIERD part is he freaks and in his rush to defend himself, he chooses the NON CT side.
He says, Who ME? Show me where I (THE GREAT AND POWERFUL FOXX) claimed they fell at FREE FALL speed.
So since he's been saying this OVER AND OVER, it takes all of a few seconds to find.
Here's a different one (there's bunches)
SURE, glad to oblige.
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 22 2006, 10:33 PM)
The buildings fell as if they faced very little to NO resistance above air resistance.
Well, DUH!
I sorta THOUGHT that when you wrote that the buildings fell as if they faced NO resistance above AIR resistance, that that would be FREE FALL speeds.
Since in the PRECEEDING sentence you agree that we WEREN'T talking about Free Fall in a VACUUM.

Arthur
So Foxx, who has time to comment on the Foxyness of some woman, skips over his own Faux pas.
Figures.
Arthur
QUOTE (newton+Feb 23 2006, 06:49 PM)
nice work, gordon.
however, i noticed you left out the 'HOT CRUNCH', and 'SUPERSONIC BLASTWAVE', and other such solid realities pointed out by Reality Check, lol!
i think maybe i'll write a paper using all the whacky theories on the ostrich crowd. that would be funny. chock full of 'supersonic hot crunchy goodness'.
Katje...
Is that you ???
however, i noticed you left out the 'HOT CRUNCH', and 'SUPERSONIC BLASTWAVE', and other such solid realities pointed out by Reality Check, lol!
i think maybe i'll write a paper using all the whacky theories on the ostrich crowd. that would be funny. chock full of 'supersonic hot crunchy goodness'.
Katje...
Is that you ???
oh yeah, and regarding the 'underground fires'. no.
the temperatures were the highest immediately following the collapse, and cooled gradually. this does not reflect the behaviour of a chaotic underground fire, which would die down and flare up randomly as fuel was first covered with soot, and then alternatively cleared of soot as the decreased size of the fuel would cause shifting in the dbris pile, and expose new areas of yummy fuel for the fire.
once again, this is not what is observed. the most extreme temperatures are after the collapse, and the cooling steady and gradual.
there are no reports of the debris pile changing size or shape, which is something that would definitely happen if the main supports of the 'structure', ie. the steel, was randomly becoming molten and losing strentgh.
so, no change in the debris pile, equals COOLING of a STATIC MASS.
now, the REAL question is, does this make the 'debunkers',
a. more vile
b. more ludicrous
c. other
look down for the answers.
the temperatures were the highest immediately following the collapse, and cooled gradually. this does not reflect the behaviour of a chaotic underground fire, which would die down and flare up randomly as fuel was first covered with soot, and then alternatively cleared of soot as the decreased size of the fuel would cause shifting in the dbris pile, and expose new areas of yummy fuel for the fire.
once again, this is not what is observed. the most extreme temperatures are after the collapse, and the cooling steady and gradual.
there are no reports of the debris pile changing size or shape, which is something that would definitely happen if the main supports of the 'structure', ie. the steel, was randomly becoming molten and losing strentgh.
so, no change in the debris pile, equals COOLING of a STATIC MASS.
now, the REAL question is, does this make the 'debunkers',
a. more vile
b. more ludicrous
c. other
look down for the answers.
The fact remains that Woods' description of the 'pancaking' theory is of her own making and does not bear any resemblance to the theory put forward by anyone else.
No one has ever stated that upon collapsing to the next floor that all the falling mass stopped before continuing on, no one except Woods that is.
Is also remains that she can produce no evidence whatsoever to support here contention that explosives were preceeding the point of collapse and getting lower floors moving at least 2.8 seconds before upper debris reaches them.
What she is describing bears no resemblance whatsoever to anything seen that day .
newton, yes that person commited suicide less than 12 hours after I saw his/her name in the list. Odd that. What did you say your full name was again?
No one has ever stated that upon collapsing to the next floor that all the falling mass stopped before continuing on, no one except Woods that is.
Is also remains that she can produce no evidence whatsoever to support here contention that explosives were preceeding the point of collapse and getting lower floors moving at least 2.8 seconds before upper debris reaches them.
What she is describing bears no resemblance whatsoever to anything seen that day .
newton, yes that person commited suicide less than 12 hours after I saw his/her name in the list. Odd that. What did you say your full name was again?
QUOTE (newton+Feb 23 2006, 03:04 PM)
oh yeah, and regarding the 'underground fires'. no.
the temperatures were the highest immediately following the collapse, and cooled gradually. this does not reflect the behaviour of a chaotic underground fire, which would die down and flare up randomly as fuel was first covered with soot, and then alternatively cleared of soot as the decreased size of the fuel would cause shifting in the dbris pile, and expose new areas of yummy fuel for the fire.
once again, this is not what is observed. the most extreme temperatures are after the collapse, and the cooling steady and gradual.
there are no reports of the debris pile changing size or shape, which is something that would definitely happen if the main supports of the 'structure', ie. the steel, was randomly becoming molten and losing strentgh.
so, no change in the debris pile, equals COOLING of a STATIC MASS.
So newton,
Based on your brief on mechanics of the debris pile:
When was the first temp of the debris pile taken?
When a temp is given is it an average for the pile or for a specific spot in the debris pile?
If for a specific spot, how were these spots tracked?
Did all the spots go steadily downhill?
How often were the temps of the debris pile measured?
Every X Days?
Every X hours?
Every X minutes?
Were the temps measured just at the surface or were they measured internally?
If internally at what depths were they measured?
Where is all of the data supporting your assertions?
Thanks
Arthur
the temperatures were the highest immediately following the collapse, and cooled gradually. this does not reflect the behaviour of a chaotic underground fire, which would die down and flare up randomly as fuel was first covered with soot, and then alternatively cleared of soot as the decreased size of the fuel would cause shifting in the dbris pile, and expose new areas of yummy fuel for the fire.
once again, this is not what is observed. the most extreme temperatures are after the collapse, and the cooling steady and gradual.
there are no reports of the debris pile changing size or shape, which is something that would definitely happen if the main supports of the 'structure', ie. the steel, was randomly becoming molten and losing strentgh.
so, no change in the debris pile, equals COOLING of a STATIC MASS.
So newton,
Based on your brief on mechanics of the debris pile:
When was the first temp of the debris pile taken?
When a temp is given is it an average for the pile or for a specific spot in the debris pile?
If for a specific spot, how were these spots tracked?
Did all the spots go steadily downhill?
How often were the temps of the debris pile measured?
Every X Days?
Every X hours?
Every X minutes?
Were the temps measured just at the surface or were they measured internally?
If internally at what depths were they measured?
Where is all of the data supporting your assertions?
Thanks
Arthur
What about the GREEN Smoke?
Sentinel
Sentinel
QUOTE (yesitdid+Feb 23 2006, 03:11 PM)
that person commited suicide less than 12 hours after I saw his/her name in the list. Odd that.
What was really ODD, was the manner he/she committed suicide.
Imagine shooting oneself 6 times and then jumping off a tall building.
Arthur
What was really ODD, was the manner he/she committed suicide.
Imagine shooting oneself 6 times and then jumping off a tall building.
Arthur
so, the answer is,
c. other, .....more threatening.
my full name is reverend moon, and y'all work for ME, so BACK OFF, lol!
c. other, .....more threatening.
my full name is reverend moon, and y'all work for ME, so BACK OFF, lol!
The real answer is don't expect any answers from Reverend newt.
Arthur
Arthur
QUOTE
Originally posted by Foxx
The buildings fell as if they faced 'VERY LITTLE' to 'NO' resistance above air resistance.
The buildings fell as if they faced 'VERY LITTLE' to 'NO' resistance above air resistance.
Reply from arthur...
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Originally posted by Foxx The buildings fell as if they faced 'VERY LITTLE' to 'NO' resistance above air resistance. |
Reply from arthur...
Well, DUH!
I sorta THOUGHT that when you wrote that the buildings fell as if they faced NO resistance above AIR resistance, that that would be FREE FALL speeds.
Since in the PRECEEDING sentence you agree that we WEREN'T talking about Free Fall in a VACUUM.
What are you babbling about?
Perhaps my inclusion of 'NO' resistance in the statement 'Little-to-No' is inappropriate or exaggerated.
Are you saying that the buildings fell as IF they faced far more resistance than simple air resistance
I have yet to see any quantitive figures which take into account the resistance overcome by the upper falling (or exploding) mass which can readily account for the actual time of fall... whether that be 9 seconds or 20 seconds.
All this babbling about 'free-fall'... 'close to free-fall'... mathematical and computer program analysis of 'speed-of-fall'... graphs... etc
are all based upon the fall of an object free-falling (or close to free-falling) from the height of the towers.
So great !!! , we have determined that this should be 'x'... then compare that with various estimates of the ACTUAL fall-times 'y'...
and we find a disparity in quantitative numbers.
This leads 'some' to the conclusion that "we have proven by physics & math that the buildings fell slower that IF they were in ACTUAL free-fall (by a matter of a few seconds)...
...absolutely TRUE --- but is no way 'proof' that the buildings COULD have fallen according to the gravity-driven scenarios within such close proximity to 'free-fall' / 'NO RESISTANCE').
So now the next step to determine is...
... to show quantitively HOW MUCH SLOWER they SHOULD have fallen (according to 'progessive collapse')...APART from added energy input.
This apparently should be quite easy to show.
I will look forward to see such computations.
Cheers
QUOTE
Originally posted by frater plecticus
Commen sense strikes again....
Commen sense quote: Feb 22 2006 9:55 PM
"WTC Construction"...

I've been plowing through this thread.
Someone tell me, where does this ridiculous diagram - supposedly of the WTC with no central core columns - come from? Is someone seriously suggesting this is the design of the WTC towers?
Commen sense strikes again....
Commen sense quote: Feb 22 2006 9:55 PM
"WTC Construction"...

I've been plowing through this thread.
Someone tell me, where does this ridiculous diagram - supposedly of the WTC with no central core columns - come from? Is someone seriously suggesting this is the design of the WTC towers?
Hi frater - that particular schematic diagram comes from the PBS special - the NOVA / Eagar production which popularized the 'pancaking floors theory'...
...long since discredited !
I put together an analysis of the graphic obfuscations presented by the media to support this nonsense...
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/untitled001.html
Hope that helps to answer your questions.
Cheers
PS - not meant to diminish the evidence presented here...
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...indpost&p=67194
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 23 2006, 03:47 PM)
QUOTE
Originally posted by Foxx
The buildings fell as if they faced 'VERY LITTLE' to 'NO' resistance above air resistance.
The buildings fell as if they faced 'VERY LITTLE' to 'NO' resistance above air resistance.
Reply from arthur...
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Originally posted by Foxx The buildings fell as if they faced 'VERY LITTLE' to 'NO' resistance above air resistance. |
Reply from arthur...
Well, DUH!
I sorta THOUGHT that when you wrote that the buildings fell as if they faced NO resistance above AIR resistance, that that would be FREE FALL speeds.
Since in the PRECEEDING sentence you agree that we WEREN'T talking about Free Fall in a VACUUM.
What are you babbling about?
Perhaps my inclusion of 'NO' resistance in the statement 'Little-to-No' is inappropriate or exaggerated.
Are you saying that the buildings fell as IF they faced far more resistance than simple air resistance
What a weasel.
Foxx uses the "it fell with NO resistance" as his "proof" that it must have been controlled demolition (which he has maintained from the start)
When he's caught in a contradiction, and called on it, the real WIERD part is he freaks and in his rush to defend himself, he chooses the NON CT side.
He says, Who ME? Show me where I (THE GREAT AND POWERFUL FOXX) claimed they fell at FREE FALL speed.
So since he's been saying this OVER AND OVER, it takes all of a few seconds to find.
Here's a different one (there's bunches)
QUOTE (Foxx+)
Typical demolition practices.
You take out the paths of resistance BEFORE they are met.
If done in proper sequential order the above falling mass will face little to NO resistance from the already compromised supporting structure. This is NOT rocket-science, (or quantum physics) we are discussing here...
just SIMPLE BASIC PHYSICS which are clearly demonstrated in the above posted graphs.
Foxx, NO RESISTANCE = FREE FALL.
Moron.
And YES, I am saying they faced far more resistance than air resistance.
Arthur
You take out the paths of resistance BEFORE they are met.
If done in proper sequential order the above falling mass will face little to NO resistance from the already compromised supporting structure. This is NOT rocket-science, (or quantum physics) we are discussing here...
just SIMPLE BASIC PHYSICS which are clearly demonstrated in the above posted graphs.
Foxx, NO RESISTANCE = FREE FALL.
Moron.
And YES, I am saying they faced far more resistance than air resistance.
Arthur
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 23 2006, 08:01 PM)
Hi frater - that particular schematic diagram comes from the PBS special - the NOVA / Eagar production which popularized the 'pancaking floors theory'...
...long since discredited !
Keep repeating that. Some day someone might believe you.
...long since discredited !
Keep repeating that. Some day someone might believe you.
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 23 2006, 08:06 PM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 23 2006, 03:47 PM)
QUOTE
Originally posted by Foxx
The buildings fell as if they faced 'VERY LITTLE' to 'NO' resistance above air resistance.
The buildings fell as if they faced 'VERY LITTLE' to 'NO' resistance above air resistance.
Reply from arthur...
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Originally posted by Foxx The buildings fell as if they faced 'VERY LITTLE' to 'NO' resistance above air resistance. |
Reply from arthur...
Well, DUH!
I sorta THOUGHT that when you wrote that the buildings fell as if they faced NO resistance above AIR resistance, that that would be FREE FALL speeds.
Since in the PRECEEDING sentence you agree that we WEREN'T talking about Free Fall in a VACUUM.
What are you babbling about?
Perhaps my inclusion of 'NO' resistance in the statement 'Little-to-No' is inappropriate or exaggerated.
Are you saying that the buildings fell as IF they faced far more resistance than simple air resistance
What a weasel.
Foxx uses the "it fell with NO resistance" as his "proof" that it must have been controlled demolition (which he has maintained from the start)
When he's caught in a contradiction, and called on it, the real WIERD part is he freaks and in his rush to defend himself, he chooses the NON CT side.
He says, Who ME? Show me where I (THE GREAT AND POWERFUL FOXX) claimed they fell at FREE FALL speed.
So since he's been saying this OVER AND OVER, it takes all of a few seconds to find.
Here's a different one (there's bunches)
QUOTE (Foxx+)
Typical demolition practices.
You take out the paths of resistance BEFORE they are met.
If done in proper sequential order the above falling mass will face little to NO resistance from the already compromised supporting structure. This is NOT rocket-science, (or quantum physics) we are discussing here...
just SIMPLE BASIC PHYSICS which are clearly demonstrated in the above posted graphs.
Foxx, NO RESISTANCE = FREE FALL.
Moron.
And YES, I am saying they faced far more resistance than air resistance.
Arthur
How many lies have we caught them in so far? Heh!
I see you making this proclamation time after time, yet offering absolutely NO evidence to support this proclamation in ANY kind of quantitative way.
Would you care to provide that now?
I see you making this proclamation time after time, yet offering absolutely NO evidence to support this proclamation in ANY kind of quantitative way.
Would you care to provide that now?

The perimeter columns only have air resistence. Why isn't the building collapse keeping pace? The only answer is it has more resistance from other things. This is so simple a 2 year old could understand.
I see you making this proclamation time after time, yet offering absolutely NO evidence to support this proclamation in ANY kind of quantitative way.
Would you care to provide that now?

The perimeter columns only have air resistence. Why isn't the building collapse keeping pace? The only answer is it has more resistance from other things. This is so simple a 2 year old could understand.
Which is why Foxx asks for a quantitative answer.
Like ANYONE could POSSIBLY give him a valid quantitative answer.
Here, let me figure out on this napkin the MASS AND STRENGTH OF THE ENTIRE REMAINING STRUCTURE BELOW THE LOCAL COLLAPSE and figure out how that will impede the collapse.
Tell you what, that's gonna need A LOT of napkins.
Foxx is SO lame.
Arthur
I see you making this proclamation time after time, yet offering absolutely NO evidence to support this proclamation in ANY kind of quantitative way.
Would you care to provide that now?

The perimeter columns only have air resistence. Why isn't the building collapse keeping pace? The only answer is it has more resistance from other things. This is so simple a 2 year old could understand.
The ejecta which you point to as 'free-falling' was ejected PRIOR TO the demolition of the still-standing tower beside that 'free-falling' debris. It started it's downwards descent BEFORE the tower beside it had even been demolished. There is no reason WHY it SHOULD NOT be 'ahead' of the collapse of the intact structure.
You claim it was 20 stories AHEAD of structures (which AS OF THAT time) had not yet been 'exploded'.
Soooo... is this surprising?
They were falling at TRUE free-fall speeds, prior-to the demolitions of the intact structure which are at the same level. Obviously they are going to be further 'ahead' in the collapse sequence.
Now can someone, please show quantatively HOW a normal physics gravity-driven collapse can crush through solid objects at a speed so close to those free-falling debris sections?
NIST has had 16 million dollars worth of napkins to figure this out on. Yet they refuse to even address the issue.
Let's see...
'Common sense' tells us that it is (allegedly) WORTH 40 million to investigate a presidential BJ...
...yet NOT 'so important' to invest a comparable amount in investigating the mass murder of over 3000 innocent individuals...? Ehhhh ????
Cry me a river.
Guess they just ran out of those $1000 napkins?
What does this tell us about the 'moral fibre' of the majority of USers ???
Jerry Springer is much more important than the laws of physics.

'USers', I hate to bring this to your attention, but YOU HAVE BECOME the laughing stock of the WORLD (regarding your nonsensical propositions)...
no offense to YOU personally metamars, (or other US-based posters) --- thankfully... there are still some US citizens willing to take a stand against this bs.
I think I'm going to repost this every few pages.
Sort of my TRIBUTE to Foxx's conversion from the "Dark Side"
I know he won't admit it on this forum (its a pride thing) but this OBVIOUS FREUDIAN SLIP shows that he has either really changed his mind or (more likely) never believed that CD Bullshiit from the beginning, but hey, you gotta make a living even if it means being a Shill for some spoiled rich kid.
Arthur
Malarkey... they spent the money on presenting sophistry on things we ALREADY KNEW...
They refuse to show (or explain) HOW the buildings collapsed.
They refuse to show (or explain) HOW the buildings collapsed.
Mmmmmmoooooooommmmmyyyyyyyy
Waaaaaaaaaaa
Hi again arthur...
I have a particular interest in the study of FEA models...
Can I help to clear up some of your misunderstandings regarding these models ?...
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...indpost&p=67313
Hi again arthur...
I have a particular interest in the study of FEA models...
Can I help to clear up some of your misunderstandings regarding these models ?...
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...indpost&p=67313
Oh arthur... you are such a silly goose


Hi again arthur...
I have a particular interest in the study of FEA models...
Can I help to clear up some of your misunderstandings regarding these models ?...
Not according to her bio.
She's big on TEETH.
http://www.ces.clemson.edu/me/mefaculty/pdfs/Wood1.pdf
Better picture of her too.
Arthur
http://www.ces.clemson.edu/me/mefaculty/pdfs/Wood1.pdf
Well it seems to me that she has qualifications related to 'engineering mechanics'...
seems that she has reached the level of PhD in this field... have YOU?

and YOUR qualifications in this field would be... what ????
IF you cannot post qualifications equal to (or surpassing) the qualificatons of Ms. Wood's, why should we pay any attention to you at all ???
You take out the paths of resistance BEFORE they are met.
If done in proper sequential order the above falling mass will face little to NO resistance from the already compromised supporting structure. This is NOT rocket-science, (or quantum physics) we are discussing here...
just SIMPLE BASIC PHYSICS which are clearly demonstrated in the above posted graphs.
Foxx, NO RESISTANCE = FREE FALL.
Moron.
And YES, I am saying they faced far more resistance than air resistance.
Arthur
How many lies have we caught them in so far? Heh!
QUOTE
by arthur
And YES, I am saying they faced far more resistance than air resistance.
Arthur
And YES, I am saying they faced far more resistance than air resistance.
Arthur
I see you making this proclamation time after time, yet offering absolutely NO evidence to support this proclamation in ANY kind of quantitative way.
Would you care to provide that now?
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 23 2006, 08:17 PM)
QUOTE
by arthur
And YES, I am saying they faced far more resistance than air resistance.
Arthur
And YES, I am saying they faced far more resistance than air resistance.
Arthur
I see you making this proclamation time after time, yet offering absolutely NO evidence to support this proclamation in ANY kind of quantitative way.
Would you care to provide that now?

The perimeter columns only have air resistence. Why isn't the building collapse keeping pace? The only answer is it has more resistance from other things. This is so simple a 2 year old could understand.
QUOTE (Common Sense+Feb 23 2006, 04:23 PM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 23 2006, 08:17 PM)
QUOTE
by arthur
And YES, I am saying they faced far more resistance than air resistance.
Arthur
And YES, I am saying they faced far more resistance than air resistance.
Arthur
I see you making this proclamation time after time, yet offering absolutely NO evidence to support this proclamation in ANY kind of quantitative way.
Would you care to provide that now?

The perimeter columns only have air resistence. Why isn't the building collapse keeping pace? The only answer is it has more resistance from other things. This is so simple a 2 year old could understand.
Which is why Foxx asks for a quantitative answer.
Like ANYONE could POSSIBLY give him a valid quantitative answer.
Here, let me figure out on this napkin the MASS AND STRENGTH OF THE ENTIRE REMAINING STRUCTURE BELOW THE LOCAL COLLAPSE and figure out how that will impede the collapse.
Tell you what, that's gonna need A LOT of napkins.
Foxx is SO lame.
Arthur
QUOTE (Common Sense+Feb 23 2006, 08:23 PM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 23 2006, 08:17 PM)
QUOTE
by arthur
And YES, I am saying they faced far more resistance than air resistance.
Arthur
And YES, I am saying they faced far more resistance than air resistance.
Arthur
I see you making this proclamation time after time, yet offering absolutely NO evidence to support this proclamation in ANY kind of quantitative way.
Would you care to provide that now?

The perimeter columns only have air resistence. Why isn't the building collapse keeping pace? The only answer is it has more resistance from other things. This is so simple a 2 year old could understand.
The ejecta which you point to as 'free-falling' was ejected PRIOR TO the demolition of the still-standing tower beside that 'free-falling' debris. It started it's downwards descent BEFORE the tower beside it had even been demolished. There is no reason WHY it SHOULD NOT be 'ahead' of the collapse of the intact structure.
You claim it was 20 stories AHEAD of structures (which AS OF THAT time) had not yet been 'exploded'.
Soooo... is this surprising?
They were falling at TRUE free-fall speeds, prior-to the demolitions of the intact structure which are at the same level. Obviously they are going to be further 'ahead' in the collapse sequence.
Now can someone, please show quantatively HOW a normal physics gravity-driven collapse can crush through solid objects at a speed so close to those free-falling debris sections?
QUOTE
by arthur
Like ANYONE could POSSIBLY give him a valid quantitative answer.
Here, let me figure out on this napkin the MASS AND STRENGTH OF THE ENTIRE REMAINING STRUCTURE BELOW THE LOCAL COLLAPSE and figure out how that will impede the collapse.
Tell you what, that's gonna need A LOT of napkins.
Foxx is SO lame.
Arthur
Like ANYONE could POSSIBLY give him a valid quantitative answer.
Here, let me figure out on this napkin the MASS AND STRENGTH OF THE ENTIRE REMAINING STRUCTURE BELOW THE LOCAL COLLAPSE and figure out how that will impede the collapse.
Tell you what, that's gonna need A LOT of napkins.
Foxx is SO lame.
Arthur
NIST has had 16 million dollars worth of napkins to figure this out on. Yet they refuse to even address the issue.
Let's see...
'Common sense' tells us that it is (allegedly) WORTH 40 million to investigate a presidential BJ...
...yet NOT 'so important' to invest a comparable amount in investigating the mass murder of over 3000 innocent individuals...? Ehhhh ????
Cry me a river.
Guess they just ran out of those $1000 napkins?
What does this tell us about the 'moral fibre' of the majority of USers ???
Jerry Springer is much more important than the laws of physics.
'USers', I hate to bring this to your attention, but YOU HAVE BECOME the laughing stock of the WORLD (regarding your nonsensical propositions)...
no offense to YOU personally metamars, (or other US-based posters) --- thankfully... there are still some US citizens willing to take a stand against this bs.
Cry you a river????
You're the one throwing the 4 year temper tantrum,
MOMMY, NO ONE LISTENS TO ME
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
NIST REFUSES to do what I want
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Face it, NIST used its money to find out things that MATTERED.
What happened structurally AFTER the local collapse began is of little importance.
Unless you are greedy and want to sell Conspiracy DVDs, Books, Web site hits by playing on the scientific ignorance of a substantial part of the population and making money on the deaths of a lot of innocent people.
You haven't managed to come up with anything after four years and luckily YOU have no say in it one way or another.
Talk about impotent.
Arthur
You're the one throwing the 4 year temper tantrum,
MOMMY, NO ONE LISTENS TO ME
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
NIST REFUSES to do what I want
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Face it, NIST used its money to find out things that MATTERED.
What happened structurally AFTER the local collapse began is of little importance.
Unless you are greedy and want to sell Conspiracy DVDs, Books, Web site hits by playing on the scientific ignorance of a substantial part of the population and making money on the deaths of a lot of innocent people.
You haven't managed to come up with anything after four years and luckily YOU have no say in it one way or another.
Talk about impotent.
Arthur
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 23 2006, 05:10 PM)
- thankfully... there are still some US citizens willing to take a stand against this bs.
Yes,
And FOXX,
You are the source of the BS we are taking a STAND against.
Arthur
Yes,
And FOXX,
You are the source of the BS we are taking a STAND against.
Arthur
Like ANYONE could POSSIBLY give him a valid quantitative answer.
Dr. Greening gives a figure of 600 - 800 MJ per storey in his report on the 911myths website, although I would disagree. Details of this disagreement can be seen in my previous post.
Gordon
Dr. Greening gives a figure of 600 - 800 MJ per storey in his report on the 911myths website, although I would disagree. Details of this disagreement can be seen in my previous post.
Gordon
I think I'm going to repost this every few pages.
Sort of my TRIBUTE to Foxx's conversion from the "Dark Side"
I know he won't admit it on this forum (its a pride thing) but this OBVIOUS FREUDIAN SLIP shows that he has either really changed his mind or (more likely) never believed that CD Bullshiit from the beginning, but hey, you gotta make a living even if it means being a Shill for some spoiled rich kid.
Arthur
QUOTE
another 'legend'
Face it, NIST used its money to find out things that MATTERED.
Face it, NIST used its money to find out things that MATTERED.
Malarkey... they spent the money on presenting sophistry on things we ALREADY KNEW...
They refuse to show (or explain) HOW the buildings collapsed.
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 23 2006, 12:38 AM)
I find nothing particularly 'unusual' about structures falling through thin air outpacing the fall of structures which were still fully supported by intact structures and having to crush their way through uncompromised sections of steel framework.
I think I'm going to repost this every few pages.
Sort of my TRIBUTE to Foxx's conversion from the "Dark Side"
I know he won't admit it on this forum (its a pride thing) but this OBVIOUS FREUDIAN SLIP shows that he has either really changed his mind or (more likely) never believed that CD Bullshiit from the beginning, but hey, you gotta make a living even if it means being a Shill for some spoiled rich kid.
Arthur
I think I'm going to repost this every few pages.
Sort of my TRIBUTE to Foxx's conversion from the "Dark Side"
I know he won't admit it on this forum (its a pride thing) but this OBVIOUS FREUDIAN SLIP shows that he has either really changed his mind or (more likely) never believed that CD Bullshiit from the beginning, but hey, you gotta make a living even if it means being a Shill for some spoiled rich kid.
Arthur
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 23 2006, 06:00 PM)
They refuse to show (or explain) HOW the buildings collapsed.
Mmmmmmoooooooommmmmyyyyyyyy
Waaaaaaaaaaa
QUOTE (gordon+Feb 23 2006, 09:55 PM)
Like ANYONE could POSSIBLY give him a valid quantitative answer.
Dr. Greening gives a figure of 600 - 800 MJ per storey in his report on the 911myths website, although I would disagree. Details of this disagreement can be seen in my previous post.
Gordon
Dr. Greening gives a figure of 600 - 800 MJ per storey in his report on the 911myths website, although I would disagree. Details of this disagreement can be seen in my previous post.
Gordon
"It is already possible to know, beyond a reasonable doubt, one very important thing: the destruction of the World Trade Centre was an inside job, orchestrated by terrorists within our own government."
NB - reasonable doubt.
Believing in supersonic jet fuel, HOT CRUNCHES, Ju Jitsu moves that arrest upper portions of buildings, amazing bellows and other tales from the far side, does not constitute reasonable doubt.
Still, if the official conspiracy theory was not so far off the wall there would not be the need for the hilarious contortions described above - otherwise known as bullshit.
The Destruction of the World Trade Center: Why the Official Account Cannot Be True
by David Ray Griffin, Ph.D.
http://911review.com/articles/griffin/nyc1.html
NB - reasonable doubt.
Believing in supersonic jet fuel, HOT CRUNCHES, Ju Jitsu moves that arrest upper portions of buildings, amazing bellows and other tales from the far side, does not constitute reasonable doubt.
Still, if the official conspiracy theory was not so far off the wall there would not be the need for the hilarious contortions described above - otherwise known as bullshit.
The Destruction of the World Trade Center: Why the Official Account Cannot Be True
by David Ray Griffin, Ph.D.
http://911review.com/articles/griffin/nyc1.html
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand another post, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand another link crying, "click me! click me!"
QUOTE (gordon+Feb 23 2006, 05:55 PM)
Like ANYONE could POSSIBLY give him a valid quantitative answer.
Dr. Greening gives a figure of 600 - 800 MJ per storey in his report on the 911myths website, although I would disagree. Details of this disagreement can be seen in my previous post.
Gordon
Foxx wants time estimates.
Which would probably require a FEA model.
They could only get the towers into the model by simplifying the tower model and only describing in detail the floors actively involved in the fire/collapse. (starting at the 91st and 77th floor IIRC)
As it was for the global analysis they used a solid object (super element) to represent the top of the tower, assumed linear behavior of the Hat Truss and a spring as another super element to represent the entire bottom of the towers and yet it still took 36 days to run the model on both towers.
They would still be running the model waiting for the results if they had tried to model the whole thing, and FOR WHAT PURPOSE?
Arthur
Dr. Greening gives a figure of 600 - 800 MJ per storey in his report on the 911myths website, although I would disagree. Details of this disagreement can be seen in my previous post.
Gordon
Foxx wants time estimates.
Which would probably require a FEA model.
They could only get the towers into the model by simplifying the tower model and only describing in detail the floors actively involved in the fire/collapse. (starting at the 91st and 77th floor IIRC)
As it was for the global analysis they used a solid object (super element) to represent the top of the tower, assumed linear behavior of the Hat Truss and a spring as another super element to represent the entire bottom of the towers and yet it still took 36 days to run the model on both towers.
They would still be running the model waiting for the results if they had tried to model the whole thing, and FOR WHAT PURPOSE?
Arthur
QUOTE (Schneibster+Feb 23 2006, 06:17 PM)
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand another post, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand another link crying, "click me! click me!"
Brian posts this same Griffin DRIVEL every other day.
"It is already possible to know.... yada yada yada..... orchestrated by terrorists within our own government."
Probably on a hundred different forums.
Hell of a way to earn a paycheck.
Selling your soul.
Arthur
Brian posts this same Griffin DRIVEL every other day.
"It is already possible to know.... yada yada yada..... orchestrated by terrorists within our own government."
Probably on a hundred different forums.
Hell of a way to earn a paycheck.
Selling your soul.
Arthur
QUOTE (brian+Feb 23 2006, 10:15 PM)
"It is already possible to know, beyond a reasonable doubt, one very important thing: the destruction of the World Trade Centre was an inside job, orchestrated by terrorists within our own government."
NB - reasonable doubt.
Believing in supersonic jet fuel, HOT CRUNCHES, Ju Jitsu moves that arrest upper portions of buildings, amazing bellows and other tales from the far side, does not constitute reasonable doubt.
Still, if the official conspiracy theory was not so far off the wall there would not be the need for the hilarious contortions described above - otherwise known as bullshit.
The Destruction of the World Trade Center: Why the Official Account Cannot Be True
by David Ray Griffin, Ph.D.
http://911review.com/articles/griffin/nyc1.html
Worth posting twice a day.
Others can make up their own mind as to where the drivel comes from.
Dr Griffin does not mention supersonic fuel, HOT CRUNCHES etc - I wonder why?
NB - reasonable doubt.
Believing in supersonic jet fuel, HOT CRUNCHES, Ju Jitsu moves that arrest upper portions of buildings, amazing bellows and other tales from the far side, does not constitute reasonable doubt.
Still, if the official conspiracy theory was not so far off the wall there would not be the need for the hilarious contortions described above - otherwise known as bullshit.
The Destruction of the World Trade Center: Why the Official Account Cannot Be True
by David Ray Griffin, Ph.D.
http://911review.com/articles/griffin/nyc1.html
Worth posting twice a day.
Others can make up their own mind as to where the drivel comes from.
Dr Griffin does not mention supersonic fuel, HOT CRUNCHES etc - I wonder why?
This is worth posting 4 times a day.
For those who may think no one has written a peer reviewed paper on the collapse of the towers here it is...
http://www-math.mit.edu/~bazant/WTC/
Walter P. Murphy Professor of
Civil Engineering and Materials Science
Northwestern University
The towers of the World Trade Center were designed to withstand as a whole the horizontal impact of a large commercial aircraft. So why did a total collapse occur? The reason is the dynamic consequence of the prolonged heating of the steel columns to very high temperature. The heating caused creep buckling of the columns of the framed tube along the perimeter of the structure, which transmits the vertical load to the ground. The likely scenario of failure may be explained as follows...
http://www-math.mit.edu/~bazant/WTC/WTC-asce.pdf
The version linked above, to appear in the Journal of Engineering Mechanics (ASCE), was revised and extended (with Yong Zhou on September 22 and additional appendices on September 28) since the original text of September 13, which was immediately posted at various civil engineering web sites, e.g. University of Illinios. It also has been or soon will be published in a number of other journals, including Archives of Applied Mechanics, Studi i Ricerche, and SIAM News:
Z. P. Bazant and Y. Zhou, "Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse?", Society for Industrial and Applied Mathematics News, vol. 34, No. 8 (October, 2001).
That means it's not just a document, book, web site or calculation on a forum. It's had to pass critical review by other engineering Professors.
I know there are CT sites which attack this paper but not one person has yet to disprove it's hypothesis professionally. There are still people attacking the theory of evolution. Anyone can attack, not many can produce a paper to back it up. Just as there is no "Theory of intelligent design" except in christian web sites there are no alternatives to this paper other than in CT sites and books.
Below is the list of people who peer reviewed the only paper which passed the scrutiny of peer review regarding the WTC tragedy...
The paper... http://www-math.mit.edu/~bazant/WTC/WTC-asce.pdf
http://www.pubs.asce.org/journals/edem.html
Editor:
Ross B. Corotis, Ph.D., P.E., S.E., NAE, University of Colorado, Boulder
corotis@colorado.edu
http://ceae.colorado.edu/new/faculty/peopl...ple.cgi?corotis
Editorial Board:
Younane Abousleiman, Ph.D., University of Oklahoma
http://mpge.ou.edu/faculty_staff/faculty.html
Ching S. Chang, Ph.D., P.E., University of Massachusetts
http://www.ecs.umass.edu/cee/faculty/chang.html
Joel P. Conte, Ph.D., P.E., University of California, San Diego
http://kudu.ucsd.edu/
Henri Gavin, Duke University
http://www.cee.duke.edu/faculty/gavin/index.php
Bojan B. Guzina, University of Minnesota
http://www.ce.umn.edu/people/faculty/guzina/
Christian Hellmich, Dr.Tech., Vienna University of Technology
http://whitepages.tuwien.ac.at/oid/998877.html
Lambros Katafygiotis, Ph.D., Hong Kong University of Science and Technology
http://lambros.ce.ust.hk/
Nik Katopodes, Ph.D., University of Michigan
http://www.engin.umich.edu/dept/cee/prospective/
Nicos Makris, University of Patras
http://www.civil.upatras.gr/Melidep_gr/depi_en.asp?profid=5
Robert J. Martinuzzi, P.E., University of Calgary
http://www.ucalgary.ca/pubs/calendar/2005/...ademicAlpha.htm
Arif Masud, Ph.D., University of Illinois, Chicago
http://www.uic.edu/depts/bioe/faculty/core_faculty_list.htm
Arvid Naess, Ph.D., Norwegian University of Science and Technology
http://www.bygg.ntnu.no/~arvidn/front.htm
Khaled W. Shahwan, Daimler Chrysler Corporation
http://www.pubs.asce.org/WWWdisplay.cgi?9800592
George Voyiadjis, Ph.D., EIT, Louisiana State University
http://www.cee.lsu.edu/facultyStaff/Voyiad...iadjis_Gbio.htm
Yunping Xi, Ph.D., University of Colorado
http://ceae.colorado.edu/new/faculty/people/people.cgi?xi
Engineering Mechanics Division Executive Committee
Alexander D. Cheng, Ph.D., M.ASCE, Chair
http://home.olemiss.edu/~acheng/
James L. Beck, Ph.D., M.ASCE
http://www.its.caltech.edu/~jimbeck/
Roger G. Ghanem, Ph.D., M.ASCE
http://ame-www.usc.edu/personnel/ghanem/index.shtml
Wilfred D. Iwan, M.ASCE
http://www.eas.caltech.edu/fac_i-m.html#i
Chiang C. Mei, M.ASCE
http://cee.mit.edu/index.pl?id=2354&isa=Category&op=show
Verna L. Jameson, ASCE Staff Contact
Journal of Engineering Mechanics http://scitation.aip.org/emo/
For those who may think no one has written a peer reviewed paper on the collapse of the towers here it is...
http://www-math.mit.edu/~bazant/WTC/
Walter P. Murphy Professor of
Civil Engineering and Materials Science
Northwestern University
The towers of the World Trade Center were designed to withstand as a whole the horizontal impact of a large commercial aircraft. So why did a total collapse occur? The reason is the dynamic consequence of the prolonged heating of the steel columns to very high temperature. The heating caused creep buckling of the columns of the framed tube along the perimeter of the structure, which transmits the vertical load to the ground. The likely scenario of failure may be explained as follows...
http://www-math.mit.edu/~bazant/WTC/WTC-asce.pdf
The version linked above, to appear in the Journal of Engineering Mechanics (ASCE), was revised and extended (with Yong Zhou on September 22 and additional appendices on September 28) since the original text of September 13, which was immediately posted at various civil engineering web sites, e.g. University of Illinios. It also has been or soon will be published in a number of other journals, including Archives of Applied Mechanics, Studi i Ricerche, and SIAM News:
Z. P. Bazant and Y. Zhou, "Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse?", Society for Industrial and Applied Mathematics News, vol. 34, No. 8 (October, 2001).
That means it's not just a document, book, web site or calculation on a forum. It's had to pass critical review by other engineering Professors.
I know there are CT sites which attack this paper but not one person has yet to disprove it's hypothesis professionally. There are still people attacking the theory of evolution. Anyone can attack, not many can produce a paper to back it up. Just as there is no "Theory of intelligent design" except in christian web sites there are no alternatives to this paper other than in CT sites and books.
Below is the list of people who peer reviewed the only paper which passed the scrutiny of peer review regarding the WTC tragedy...
The paper... http://www-math.mit.edu/~bazant/WTC/WTC-asce.pdf
http://www.pubs.asce.org/journals/edem.html
Editor:
Ross B. Corotis, Ph.D., P.E., S.E., NAE, University of Colorado, Boulder
corotis@colorado.edu
http://ceae.colorado.edu/new/faculty/peopl...ple.cgi?corotis
Editorial Board:
Younane Abousleiman, Ph.D., University of Oklahoma
http://mpge.ou.edu/faculty_staff/faculty.html
Ching S. Chang, Ph.D., P.E., University of Massachusetts
http://www.ecs.umass.edu/cee/faculty/chang.html
Joel P. Conte, Ph.D., P.E., University of California, San Diego
http://kudu.ucsd.edu/
Henri Gavin, Duke University
http://www.cee.duke.edu/faculty/gavin/index.php
Bojan B. Guzina, University of Minnesota
http://www.ce.umn.edu/people/faculty/guzina/
Christian Hellmich, Dr.Tech., Vienna University of Technology
http://whitepages.tuwien.ac.at/oid/998877.html
Lambros Katafygiotis, Ph.D., Hong Kong University of Science and Technology
http://lambros.ce.ust.hk/
Nik Katopodes, Ph.D., University of Michigan
http://www.engin.umich.edu/dept/cee/prospective/
Nicos Makris, University of Patras
http://www.civil.upatras.gr/Melidep_gr/depi_en.asp?profid=5
Robert J. Martinuzzi, P.E., University of Calgary
http://www.ucalgary.ca/pubs/calendar/2005/...ademicAlpha.htm
Arif Masud, Ph.D., University of Illinois, Chicago
http://www.uic.edu/depts/bioe/faculty/core_faculty_list.htm
Arvid Naess, Ph.D., Norwegian University of Science and Technology
http://www.bygg.ntnu.no/~arvidn/front.htm
Khaled W. Shahwan, Daimler Chrysler Corporation
http://www.pubs.asce.org/WWWdisplay.cgi?9800592
George Voyiadjis, Ph.D., EIT, Louisiana State University
http://www.cee.lsu.edu/facultyStaff/Voyiad...iadjis_Gbio.htm
Yunping Xi, Ph.D., University of Colorado
http://ceae.colorado.edu/new/faculty/people/people.cgi?xi
Engineering Mechanics Division Executive Committee
Alexander D. Cheng, Ph.D., M.ASCE, Chair
http://home.olemiss.edu/~acheng/
James L. Beck, Ph.D., M.ASCE
http://www.its.caltech.edu/~jimbeck/
Roger G. Ghanem, Ph.D., M.ASCE
http://ame-www.usc.edu/personnel/ghanem/index.shtml
Wilfred D. Iwan, M.ASCE
http://www.eas.caltech.edu/fac_i-m.html#i
Chiang C. Mei, M.ASCE
http://cee.mit.edu/index.pl?id=2354&isa=Category&op=show
Verna L. Jameson, ASCE Staff Contact
Journal of Engineering Mechanics http://scitation.aip.org/emo/
For those who may think no one has written a peer reviewed paper on the collapse of the towers here it is...
http://www-math.mit.edu/~bazant/WTC/
Walter P. Murphy Professor of
Civil Engineering and Materials Science
Northwestern University
The towers of the World Trade Center were designed to withstand as a whole the horizontal impact of a large commercial aircraft. So why did a total collapse occur? The reason is the dynamic consequence of the prolonged heating of the steel columns to very high temperature. The heating caused creep buckling of the columns of the framed tube along the perimeter of the structure, which transmits the vertical load to the ground. The likely scenario of failure may be explained as follows...
http://www-math.mit.edu/~bazant/WTC/WTC-asce.pdf
The version linked above, to appear in the Journal of Engineering Mechanics (ASCE), was revised and extended (with Yong Zhou on September 22 and additional appendices on September 28) since the original text of September 13, which was immediately posted at various civil engineering web sites, e.g. University of Illinios. It also has been or soon will be published in a number of other journals, including Archives of Applied Mechanics, Studi i Ricerche, and SIAM News:
Z. P. Bazant and Y. Zhou, "Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse?", Society for Industrial and Applied Mathematics News, vol. 34, No. 8 (October, 2001).
That means it's not just a document, book, web site or calculation on a forum. It's had to pass critical review by other engineering Professors.
I know there are CT sites which attack this paper but not one person has yet to disprove it's hypothesis professionally. There are still people attacking the theory of evolution. Anyone can attack, not many can produce a paper to back it up. Just as there is no "Theory of intelligent design" except in christian web sites there are no alternatives to this paper other than in CT sites and books.
Below is the list of people who peer reviewed the only paper which passed the scrutiny of peer review regarding the WTC tragedy...
The paper... http://www-math.mit.edu/~bazant/WTC/WTC-asce.pdf
http://www.pubs.asce.org/journals/edem.html
Editor:
Ross B. Corotis, Ph.D., P.E., S.E., NAE, University of Colorado, Boulder
corotis@colorado.edu
http://ceae.colorado.edu/new/faculty/peopl...ple.cgi?corotis
Editorial Board:
Younane Abousleiman, Ph.D., University of Oklahoma
http://mpge.ou.edu/faculty_staff/faculty.html
Ching S. Chang, Ph.D., P.E., University of Massachusetts
http://www.ecs.umass.edu/cee/faculty/chang.html
Joel P. Conte, Ph.D., P.E., University of California, San Diego
http://kudu.ucsd.edu/
Henri Gavin, Duke University
http://www.cee.duke.edu/faculty/gavin/index.php
Bojan B. Guzina, University of Minnesota
http://www.ce.umn.edu/people/faculty/guzina/
Christian Hellmich, Dr.Tech., Vienna University of Technology
http://whitepages.tuwien.ac.at/oid/998877.html
Lambros Katafygiotis, Ph.D., Hong Kong University of Science and Technology
http://lambros.ce.ust.hk/
Nik Katopodes, Ph.D., University of Michigan
http://www.engin.umich.edu/dept/cee/prospective/
Nicos Makris, University of Patras
http://www.civil.upatras.gr/Melidep_gr/depi_en.asp?profid=5
Robert J. Martinuzzi, P.E., University of Calgary
http://www.ucalgary.ca/pubs/calendar/2005/...ademicAlpha.htm
Arif Masud, Ph.D., University of Illinois, Chicago
http://www.uic.edu/depts/bioe/faculty/core_faculty_list.htm
Arvid Naess, Ph.D., Norwegian University of Science and Technology
http://www.bygg.ntnu.no/~arvidn/front.htm
Khaled W. Shahwan, Daimler Chrysler Corporation
http://www.pubs.asce.org/WWWdisplay.cgi?9800592
George Voyiadjis, Ph.D., EIT, Louisiana State University
http://www.cee.lsu.edu/facultyStaff/Voyiad...iadjis_Gbio.htm
Yunping Xi, Ph.D., University of Colorado
http://ceae.colorado.edu/new/faculty/people/people.cgi?xi
Engineering Mechanics Division Executive Committee
Alexander D. Cheng, Ph.D., M.ASCE, Chair
http://home.olemiss.edu/~acheng/
James L. Beck, Ph.D., M.ASCE
http://www.its.caltech.edu/~jimbeck/
Roger G. Ghanem, Ph.D., M.ASCE
http://ame-www.usc.edu/personnel/ghanem/index.shtml
Wilfred D. Iwan, M.ASCE
http://www.eas.caltech.edu/fac_i-m.html#i
Chiang C. Mei, M.ASCE
http://cee.mit.edu/index.pl?id=2354&isa=Category&op=show
Verna L. Jameson, ASCE Staff Contact
Journal of Engineering Mechanics http://scitation.aip.org/emo/
http://www-math.mit.edu/~bazant/WTC/
Walter P. Murphy Professor of
Civil Engineering and Materials Science
Northwestern University
The towers of the World Trade Center were designed to withstand as a whole the horizontal impact of a large commercial aircraft. So why did a total collapse occur? The reason is the dynamic consequence of the prolonged heating of the steel columns to very high temperature. The heating caused creep buckling of the columns of the framed tube along the perimeter of the structure, which transmits the vertical load to the ground. The likely scenario of failure may be explained as follows...
http://www-math.mit.edu/~bazant/WTC/WTC-asce.pdf
The version linked above, to appear in the Journal of Engineering Mechanics (ASCE), was revised and extended (with Yong Zhou on September 22 and additional appendices on September 28) since the original text of September 13, which was immediately posted at various civil engineering web sites, e.g. University of Illinios. It also has been or soon will be published in a number of other journals, including Archives of Applied Mechanics, Studi i Ricerche, and SIAM News:
Z. P. Bazant and Y. Zhou, "Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse?", Society for Industrial and Applied Mathematics News, vol. 34, No. 8 (October, 2001).
That means it's not just a document, book, web site or calculation on a forum. It's had to pass critical review by other engineering Professors.
I know there are CT sites which attack this paper but not one person has yet to disprove it's hypothesis professionally. There are still people attacking the theory of evolution. Anyone can attack, not many can produce a paper to back it up. Just as there is no "Theory of intelligent design" except in christian web sites there are no alternatives to this paper other than in CT sites and books.
Below is the list of people who peer reviewed the only paper which passed the scrutiny of peer review regarding the WTC tragedy...
The paper... http://www-math.mit.edu/~bazant/WTC/WTC-asce.pdf
http://www.pubs.asce.org/journals/edem.html
Editor:
Ross B. Corotis, Ph.D., P.E., S.E., NAE, University of Colorado, Boulder
corotis@colorado.edu
http://ceae.colorado.edu/new/faculty/peopl...ple.cgi?corotis
Editorial Board:
Younane Abousleiman, Ph.D., University of Oklahoma
http://mpge.ou.edu/faculty_staff/faculty.html
Ching S. Chang, Ph.D., P.E., University of Massachusetts
http://www.ecs.umass.edu/cee/faculty/chang.html
Joel P. Conte, Ph.D., P.E., University of California, San Diego
http://kudu.ucsd.edu/
Henri Gavin, Duke University
http://www.cee.duke.edu/faculty/gavin/index.php
Bojan B. Guzina, University of Minnesota
http://www.ce.umn.edu/people/faculty/guzina/
Christian Hellmich, Dr.Tech., Vienna University of Technology
http://whitepages.tuwien.ac.at/oid/998877.html
Lambros Katafygiotis, Ph.D., Hong Kong University of Science and Technology
http://lambros.ce.ust.hk/
Nik Katopodes, Ph.D., University of Michigan
http://www.engin.umich.edu/dept/cee/prospective/
Nicos Makris, University of Patras
http://www.civil.upatras.gr/Melidep_gr/depi_en.asp?profid=5
Robert J. Martinuzzi, P.E., University of Calgary
http://www.ucalgary.ca/pubs/calendar/2005/...ademicAlpha.htm
Arif Masud, Ph.D., University of Illinois, Chicago
http://www.uic.edu/depts/bioe/faculty/core_faculty_list.htm
Arvid Naess, Ph.D., Norwegian University of Science and Technology
http://www.bygg.ntnu.no/~arvidn/front.htm
Khaled W. Shahwan, Daimler Chrysler Corporation
http://www.pubs.asce.org/WWWdisplay.cgi?9800592
George Voyiadjis, Ph.D., EIT, Louisiana State University
http://www.cee.lsu.edu/facultyStaff/Voyiad...iadjis_Gbio.htm
Yunping Xi, Ph.D., University of Colorado
http://ceae.colorado.edu/new/faculty/people/people.cgi?xi
Engineering Mechanics Division Executive Committee
Alexander D. Cheng, Ph.D., M.ASCE, Chair
http://home.olemiss.edu/~acheng/
James L. Beck, Ph.D., M.ASCE
http://www.its.caltech.edu/~jimbeck/
Roger G. Ghanem, Ph.D., M.ASCE
http://ame-www.usc.edu/personnel/ghanem/index.shtml
Wilfred D. Iwan, M.ASCE
http://www.eas.caltech.edu/fac_i-m.html#i
Chiang C. Mei, M.ASCE
http://cee.mit.edu/index.pl?id=2354&isa=Category&op=show
Verna L. Jameson, ASCE Staff Contact
Journal of Engineering Mechanics http://scitation.aip.org/emo/
QUOTE
originally posted by arthur
Foxx wants time estimates.
Which would probably require a FEA model.
Foxx wants time estimates.
Which would probably require a FEA model.
Hi again arthur...
I have a particular interest in the study of FEA models...
Can I help to clear up some of your misunderstandings regarding these models ?...
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...indpost&p=67313
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| originally posted by arthur Foxx wants time estimates. Which would probably require a FEA model. |
Hi again arthur...
I have a particular interest in the study of FEA models...
Can I help to clear up some of your misunderstandings regarding these models ?...
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...indpost&p=67313
Oh arthur... you are such a silly goose

For those who may think no one has written a peer reviewed paper on the collapse of the towers here it is...
http://www-math.mit.edu/~bazant/WTC/
Walter P. Murphy Professor of
Civil Engineering and Materials Science
Northwestern University
The towers of the World Trade Center were designed to withstand as a whole the horizontal impact of a large commercial aircraft. So why did a total collapse occur? The reason is the dynamic consequence of the prolonged heating of the steel columns to very high temperature. The heating caused creep buckling of the columns of the framed tube along the perimeter of the structure, which transmits the vertical load to the ground. The likely scenario of failure may be explained as follows...
http://www-math.mit.edu/~bazant/WTC/WTC-asce.pdf
The version linked above, to appear in the Journal of Engineering Mechanics (ASCE), was revised and extended (with Yong Zhou on September 22 and additional appendices on September 28) since the original text of September 13, which was immediately posted at various civil engineering web sites, e.g. University of Illinios. It also has been or soon will be published in a number of other journals, including Archives of Applied Mechanics, Studi i Ricerche, and SIAM News:
Z. P. Bazant and Y. Zhou, "Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse?", Society for Industrial and Applied Mathematics News, vol. 34, No. 8 (October, 2001).
That means it's not just a document, book, web site or calculation on a forum. It's had to pass critical review by other engineering Professors.
I know there are CT sites which attack this paper but not one person has yet to disprove it's hypothesis professionally. There are still people attacking the theory of evolution. Anyone can attack, not many can produce a paper to back it up. Just as there is no "Theory of intelligent design" except in christian web sites there are no alternatives to this paper other than in CT sites and books.
Below is the list of people who peer reviewed the only paper which passed the scrutiny of peer review regarding the WTC tragedy...
The paper... http://www-math.mit.edu/~bazant/WTC/WTC-asce.pdf
http://www.pubs.asce.org/journals/edem.html
Editor:
Ross B. Corotis, Ph.D., P.E., S.E., NAE, University of Colorado, Boulder
corotis@colorado.edu
http://ceae.colorado.edu/new/faculty/peopl...ple.cgi?corotis
Editorial Board:
Younane Abousleiman, Ph.D., University of Oklahoma
http://mpge.ou.edu/faculty_staff/faculty.html
Ching S. Chang, Ph.D., P.E., University of Massachusetts
http://www.ecs.umass.edu/cee/faculty/chang.html
Joel P. Conte, Ph.D., P.E., University of California, San Diego
http://kudu.ucsd.edu/
Henri Gavin, Duke University
http://www.cee.duke.edu/faculty/gavin/index.php
Bojan B. Guzina, University of Minnesota
http://www.ce.umn.edu/people/faculty/guzina/
Christian Hellmich, Dr.Tech., Vienna University of Technology
http://whitepages.tuwien.ac.at/oid/998877.html
Lambros Katafygiotis, Ph.D., Hong Kong University of Science and Technology
http://lambros.ce.ust.hk/
Nik Katopodes, Ph.D., University of Michigan
http://www.engin.umich.edu/dept/cee/prospective/
Nicos Makris, University of Patras
http://www.civil.upatras.gr/Melidep_gr/depi_en.asp?profid=5
Robert J. Martinuzzi, P.E., University of Calgary
http://www.ucalgary.ca/pubs/calendar/2005/...ademicAlpha.htm
Arif Masud, Ph.D., University of Illinois, Chicago
http://www.uic.edu/depts/bioe/faculty/core_faculty_list.htm
Arvid Naess, Ph.D., Norwegian University of Science and Technology
http://www.bygg.ntnu.no/~arvidn/front.htm
Khaled W. Shahwan, Daimler Chrysler Corporation
http://www.pubs.asce.org/WWWdisplay.cgi?9800592
George Voyiadjis, Ph.D., EIT, Louisiana State University
http://www.cee.lsu.edu/facultyStaff/Voyiad...iadjis_Gbio.htm
Yunping Xi, Ph.D., University of Colorado
http://ceae.colorado.edu/new/faculty/people/people.cgi?xi
Engineering Mechanics Division Executive Committee
Alexander D. Cheng, Ph.D., M.ASCE, Chair
http://home.olemiss.edu/~acheng/
James L. Beck, Ph.D., M.ASCE
http://www.its.caltech.edu/~jimbeck/
Roger G. Ghanem, Ph.D., M.ASCE
http://ame-www.usc.edu/personnel/ghanem/index.shtml
Wilfred D. Iwan, M.ASCE
http://www.eas.caltech.edu/fac_i-m.html#i
Chiang C. Mei, M.ASCE
http://cee.mit.edu/index.pl?id=2354&isa=Category&op=show
Verna L. Jameson, ASCE Staff Contact
Journal of Engineering Mechanics http://scitation.aip.org/emo/
http://www-math.mit.edu/~bazant/WTC/
Walter P. Murphy Professor of
Civil Engineering and Materials Science
Northwestern University
The towers of the World Trade Center were designed to withstand as a whole the horizontal impact of a large commercial aircraft. So why did a total collapse occur? The reason is the dynamic consequence of the prolonged heating of the steel columns to very high temperature. The heating caused creep buckling of the columns of the framed tube along the perimeter of the structure, which transmits the vertical load to the ground. The likely scenario of failure may be explained as follows...
http://www-math.mit.edu/~bazant/WTC/WTC-asce.pdf
The version linked above, to appear in the Journal of Engineering Mechanics (ASCE), was revised and extended (with Yong Zhou on September 22 and additional appendices on September 28) since the original text of September 13, which was immediately posted at various civil engineering web sites, e.g. University of Illinios. It also has been or soon will be published in a number of other journals, including Archives of Applied Mechanics, Studi i Ricerche, and SIAM News:
Z. P. Bazant and Y. Zhou, "Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse?", Society for Industrial and Applied Mathematics News, vol. 34, No. 8 (October, 2001).
That means it's not just a document, book, web site or calculation on a forum. It's had to pass critical review by other engineering Professors.
I know there are CT sites which attack this paper but not one person has yet to disprove it's hypothesis professionally. There are still people attacking the theory of evolution. Anyone can attack, not many can produce a paper to back it up. Just as there is no "Theory of intelligent design" except in christian web sites there are no alternatives to this paper other than in CT sites and books.
Below is the list of people who peer reviewed the only paper which passed the scrutiny of peer review regarding the WTC tragedy...
The paper... http://www-math.mit.edu/~bazant/WTC/WTC-asce.pdf
http://www.pubs.asce.org/journals/edem.html
Editor:
Ross B. Corotis, Ph.D., P.E., S.E., NAE, University of Colorado, Boulder
corotis@colorado.edu
http://ceae.colorado.edu/new/faculty/peopl...ple.cgi?corotis
Editorial Board:
Younane Abousleiman, Ph.D., University of Oklahoma
http://mpge.ou.edu/faculty_staff/faculty.html
Ching S. Chang, Ph.D., P.E., University of Massachusetts
http://www.ecs.umass.edu/cee/faculty/chang.html
Joel P. Conte, Ph.D., P.E., University of California, San Diego
http://kudu.ucsd.edu/
Henri Gavin, Duke University
http://www.cee.duke.edu/faculty/gavin/index.php
Bojan B. Guzina, University of Minnesota
http://www.ce.umn.edu/people/faculty/guzina/
Christian Hellmich, Dr.Tech., Vienna University of Technology
http://whitepages.tuwien.ac.at/oid/998877.html
Lambros Katafygiotis, Ph.D., Hong Kong University of Science and Technology
http://lambros.ce.ust.hk/
Nik Katopodes, Ph.D., University of Michigan
http://www.engin.umich.edu/dept/cee/prospective/
Nicos Makris, University of Patras
http://www.civil.upatras.gr/Melidep_gr/depi_en.asp?profid=5
Robert J. Martinuzzi, P.E., University of Calgary
http://www.ucalgary.ca/pubs/calendar/2005/...ademicAlpha.htm
Arif Masud, Ph.D., University of Illinois, Chicago
http://www.uic.edu/depts/bioe/faculty/core_faculty_list.htm
Arvid Naess, Ph.D., Norwegian University of Science and Technology
http://www.bygg.ntnu.no/~arvidn/front.htm
Khaled W. Shahwan, Daimler Chrysler Corporation
http://www.pubs.asce.org/WWWdisplay.cgi?9800592
George Voyiadjis, Ph.D., EIT, Louisiana State University
http://www.cee.lsu.edu/facultyStaff/Voyiad...iadjis_Gbio.htm
Yunping Xi, Ph.D., University of Colorado
http://ceae.colorado.edu/new/faculty/people/people.cgi?xi
Engineering Mechanics Division Executive Committee
Alexander D. Cheng, Ph.D., M.ASCE, Chair
http://home.olemiss.edu/~acheng/
James L. Beck, Ph.D., M.ASCE
http://www.its.caltech.edu/~jimbeck/
Roger G. Ghanem, Ph.D., M.ASCE
http://ame-www.usc.edu/personnel/ghanem/index.shtml
Wilfred D. Iwan, M.ASCE
http://www.eas.caltech.edu/fac_i-m.html#i
Chiang C. Mei, M.ASCE
http://cee.mit.edu/index.pl?id=2354&isa=Category&op=show
Verna L. Jameson, ASCE Staff Contact
Journal of Engineering Mechanics http://scitation.aip.org/emo/
Schneibster...
How's the investigation coming???
How's the investigation coming???
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 23 2006, 06:52 PM)
Hi again arthur...
I have a particular interest in the study of FEA models...
Can I help to clear up some of your misunderstandings regarding these models ?...
Not according to her bio.
She's big on TEETH.
http://www.ces.clemson.edu/me/mefaculty/pdfs/Wood1.pdf
Better picture of her too.
Arthur
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 23 2006, 11:17 PM)
Schneibster...
How's the investigation coming???
Somebody is getting to Foxx, he's on this again.
Hi, Foxx, how's your 'investigation' of the urology site going?
Gone in for a check up yet or is your trip to the east coast not until next month?
How's the investigation coming???
Somebody is getting to Foxx, he's on this again.
Hi, Foxx, how's your 'investigation' of the urology site going?
Gone in for a check up yet or is your trip to the east coast not until next month?
QUOTE
by the legendarian
"Not according to her bio.
She's big on TEETH.
http://www.ces.clemson.edu/me/mefaculty/pdfs/Wood1.pdf
Better picture of her too".
"Not according to her bio.
She's big on TEETH.
http://www.ces.clemson.edu/me/mefaculty/pdfs/Wood1.pdf
Better picture of her too".
http://www.ces.clemson.edu/me/mefaculty/pdfs/Wood1.pdf
Well it seems to me that she has qualifications related to 'engineering mechanics'...
seems that she has reached the level of PhD in this field... have YOU?

and YOUR qualifications in this field would be... what ????
IF you cannot post qualifications equal to (or surpassing) the qualificatons of Ms. Wood's, why should we pay any attention to you at all ???
Change the subject much, Faux? It seems to be your favorite tactic. Like several others here. All of whom seem to have the same agenda. Funny how that works. Get any clicks lately?
QUOTE (Schneibster+Feb 23 2006, 11:56 PM)
Change the subject much, Faux? It seems to be your favorite tactic. Like several others here. All of whom seem to have the same agenda. Funny how that works. Get any clicks lately?
What WAS the subject there, Schneiby-Dooby-Doo ?
Was it lawsuits?... was it urology investigations?... the speeed-of-fall?
Let's NOT change the subject... and investigate the graphs presented as evidence.
Why don't you answer 'Gordon' (in your 'normal' intelligent) Dr. Jeckyl personna... instead of wasting time with me ...???
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...indpost&p=67223
BTW - how's the 'investigation' coming there... pink panther?
What WAS the subject there, Schneiby-Dooby-Doo ?
Was it lawsuits?... was it urology investigations?... the speeed-of-fall?
Let's NOT change the subject... and investigate the graphs presented as evidence.
Why don't you answer 'Gordon' (in your 'normal' intelligent) Dr. Jeckyl personna... instead of wasting time with me ...???
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...indpost&p=67223
BTW - how's the 'investigation' coming there... pink panther?
QUOTE (newton+Feb 23 2006, 08:07 AM)
ooo. it hurts. wah.
so much hate.
sad.
Yes, but did it hurt ENOUGH to make you stop and think before you 'drivel wittily' all over these fora? That's the question, mate! Cheers!
RC.
.
so much hate.
sad.
Yes, but did it hurt ENOUGH to make you stop and think before you 'drivel wittily' all over these fora? That's the question, mate! Cheers!
RC.
.
QUOTE (newton+Feb 23 2006, 06:49 PM)
nice work, gordon.
however, i noticed you left out the 'HOT CRUNCH', and 'SUPERSONIC BLASTWAVE', and other such solid realities pointed out by Reality Check, lol!
i think maybe i'll write a paper using all the whacky theories on the ostrich crowd. that would be funny. chock full of 'supersonic hot crunchy goodness'.
There's that witty drivel again, mate! Use a hanky to stop it before it hits the forum floor, will you? That's a good incompetent irrelevance. Cheers!
RC.
.
however, i noticed you left out the 'HOT CRUNCH', and 'SUPERSONIC BLASTWAVE', and other such solid realities pointed out by Reality Check, lol!
i think maybe i'll write a paper using all the whacky theories on the ostrich crowd. that would be funny. chock full of 'supersonic hot crunchy goodness'.
There's that witty drivel again, mate! Use a hanky to stop it before it hits the forum floor, will you? That's a good incompetent irrelevance. Cheers!
RC.
.
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Feb 24 2006, 12:48 AM)
QUOTE (newton+Feb 23 2006, 08:07 AM)
ooo. it hurts. wah.
so much hate.
sad.
Yes, but did it hurt ENOUGH to make you stop and think before you 'drivel wittily' all over these fora? That's the question, mate! Cheers!
RC.
.
thank you. i'm reborn through your benevolent influence.
well, i'd like to chat, but i have to work on my abs, AND cook dinner at the same time, so i'm thinking some of your 'hot crunches' are in order.
once again. thanks
so much hate.
sad.
Yes, but did it hurt ENOUGH to make you stop and think before you 'drivel wittily' all over these fora? That's the question, mate! Cheers!
RC.
.
thank you. i'm reborn through your benevolent influence.
well, i'd like to chat, but i have to work on my abs, AND cook dinner at the same time, so i'm thinking some of your 'hot crunches' are in order.
once again. thanks
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