QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 20 2006, 07:26 PM)
QUOTE (computer fogie+Feb 20 2006, 03:13 PM)
I never said explosives caused the yellow-hot metal.
Thermite, as has been used in the construction industry for decades to melt steel. It doesn't burn yellow-hot, it burns WAY hotter, around 2500 C. Hot enough to explain why there was yellow-hot metal in the rubble, weeks after 9/11.
So Fogie,
What you are claiming is that they used Thermite to cut enough of the massive columns in the basement of the WTC towers to cause it to collapse.
And that the resulting melted steel is what we see being plucked from the debris pile (after its cooled down a tad).
Correct?
Arthur
Well, that is one plausible theory...
Your alternative is what... ?
Amazing Supersonic Jet Fuel ... ? OR Amazing Underground Bellows... ?
I have yet to see any evidence presented for these alternative theories.
Do you expect to present any soon?
Thermite, as has been used in the construction industry for decades to melt steel. It doesn't burn yellow-hot, it burns WAY hotter, around 2500 C. Hot enough to explain why there was yellow-hot metal in the rubble, weeks after 9/11.
So Fogie,
What you are claiming is that they used Thermite to cut enough of the massive columns in the basement of the WTC towers to cause it to collapse.
And that the resulting melted steel is what we see being plucked from the debris pile (after its cooled down a tad).
Correct?
Arthur
Well, that is one plausible theory...
Your alternative is what... ?
Amazing Supersonic Jet Fuel ... ? OR Amazing Underground Bellows... ?
I have yet to see any evidence presented for these alternative theories.
Do you expect to present any soon?
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 20 2006, 07:26 PM)
QUOTE (computer fogie+Feb 20 2006, 03:13 PM)
I never said explosives caused the yellow-hot metal.
Thermite, as has been used in the construction industry for decades to melt steel. It doesn't burn yellow-hot, it burns WAY hotter, around 2500 C. Hot enough to explain why there was yellow-hot metal in the rubble, weeks after 9/11.
So Fogie,
What you are claiming is that they used Thermite to cut enough of the massive columns in the basement of the WTC towers to cause it to collapse.
And that the resulting melted steel is what we see being plucked from the debris pile (after its cooled down a tad).
Correct?
Arthur
Not the way I read it.
The way I see his arguement is that thermite was used to shorten the core columns prior to the collapse and then further burning of thermite heats the rubble pile up for weeks afterward.
Indeed one need ask why the overkill in the use of thermite? If x amount is required to slightly shorten the core columns but x+y is used and keeps heating the rubble for weeks then why was that extra y amount used?
Not only that but obviously that extra y component was not burning right from the start but only ignited after the collapse. How was this accomplished?
IIRC NIST does state that heating of core columns produced some core foreshortening through creep.
Does the use of thermite to shorten the columns have any basis in observed events? NO! There is no evidence that the core columns shortened at the basement level. This would have been shown by sagging of ALL floors towards the core. NO evidence of this is given.
Does the use of thermite to shorten the core columns mean that there was no need of explosives higher up? Not according to those who believe in CD. Indeed this is supposed to be only one facet of the CD of the towers.
Thermite, as has been used in the construction industry for decades to melt steel. It doesn't burn yellow-hot, it burns WAY hotter, around 2500 C. Hot enough to explain why there was yellow-hot metal in the rubble, weeks after 9/11.
So Fogie,
What you are claiming is that they used Thermite to cut enough of the massive columns in the basement of the WTC towers to cause it to collapse.
And that the resulting melted steel is what we see being plucked from the debris pile (after its cooled down a tad).
Correct?
Arthur
Not the way I read it.
The way I see his arguement is that thermite was used to shorten the core columns prior to the collapse and then further burning of thermite heats the rubble pile up for weeks afterward.
Indeed one need ask why the overkill in the use of thermite? If x amount is required to slightly shorten the core columns but x+y is used and keeps heating the rubble for weeks then why was that extra y amount used?
Not only that but obviously that extra y component was not burning right from the start but only ignited after the collapse. How was this accomplished?
IIRC NIST does state that heating of core columns produced some core foreshortening through creep.
Does the use of thermite to shorten the columns have any basis in observed events? NO! There is no evidence that the core columns shortened at the basement level. This would have been shown by sagging of ALL floors towards the core. NO evidence of this is given.
Does the use of thermite to shorten the core columns mean that there was no need of explosives higher up? Not according to those who believe in CD. Indeed this is supposed to be only one facet of the CD of the towers.
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 20 2006, 03:36 PM)
Your alternative is what... ?
Amazing Supersonic Jet Fuel ... ? OR Amazing Underground Bellows... ?
I have yet to see any evidence presented for these alternative theories.
Do you expect to present any soon?
No
In the TRADITION of most CT'er posts of POSSIBLE EXPLANATIONS (i.e. SQUIBS) in this thread, it is up to YOU to prove THESE DIDN'T happen.
Arthur
Amazing Supersonic Jet Fuel ... ? OR Amazing Underground Bellows... ?
I have yet to see any evidence presented for these alternative theories.
Do you expect to present any soon?
No
In the TRADITION of most CT'er posts of POSSIBLE EXPLANATIONS (i.e. SQUIBS) in this thread, it is up to YOU to prove THESE DIDN'T happen.
Arthur
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 20 2006, 07:32 PM)
QUOTE (Common Sense+Feb 20 2006, 03:25 PM)
How much thermite would you need?
Has this ever happened before?
This is one of the CT's stock answers for this:
http://physics911.net/thermite.htm
Happened before?
Depends on who you ask, if you ask the CT'ers there is no end to the "things" that have happened but us normal people are too dumb to know.
That's the ultimate irony, they THINK they are so SMART yet their posts show how incredibly MORONIC they can be.
Arthur
That's not a peer reviewed published paper. Why not? Why can't he get this published? It seems like it's ready to go. Could it be he can't because it's wrong?
Yet he says it woud explain the pyroclastic cloud. As you well know there WAS NO pyroclastic flow.
He says it would explain the near free fall speeds. As you know the buildings didn't fall anywhere near free fall speeds.
This paper is a sham.
Has this ever happened before?
This is one of the CT's stock answers for this:
http://physics911.net/thermite.htm
Happened before?
Depends on who you ask, if you ask the CT'ers there is no end to the "things" that have happened but us normal people are too dumb to know.
That's the ultimate irony, they THINK they are so SMART yet their posts show how incredibly MORONIC they can be.
Arthur
That's not a peer reviewed published paper. Why not? Why can't he get this published? It seems like it's ready to go. Could it be he can't because it's wrong?
Yet he says it woud explain the pyroclastic cloud. As you well know there WAS NO pyroclastic flow.
He says it would explain the near free fall speeds. As you know the buildings didn't fall anywhere near free fall speeds.
This paper is a sham.
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 20 2006, 07:32 PM)
QUOTE (Common Sense+Feb 20 2006, 03:25 PM)
How much thermite would you need?
Has this ever happened before?
This is one of the CT's stock answers for this:
http://physics911.net/thermite.htm
Happened before?
Depends on who you ask, if you ask the CT'ers there is no end to the "things" that have happened but us normal people are too dumb to know.
That's the ultimate irony, they THINK they are so SMART yet their posts show how incredibly MORONIC they can be.
Arthur
That also only addresses the amount of thermite required to fulfill Hoffman's 'energy deficit'. It does not address the heating of the rubble pile by thermite which is the supposed cause of 'pools' and 'rivers' of molten steel (for which there is little, if any evidence of) weeks after the collapses.
Has this ever happened before?
This is one of the CT's stock answers for this:
http://physics911.net/thermite.htm
Happened before?
Depends on who you ask, if you ask the CT'ers there is no end to the "things" that have happened but us normal people are too dumb to know.
That's the ultimate irony, they THINK they are so SMART yet their posts show how incredibly MORONIC they can be.
Arthur
That also only addresses the amount of thermite required to fulfill Hoffman's 'energy deficit'. It does not address the heating of the rubble pile by thermite which is the supposed cause of 'pools' and 'rivers' of molten steel (for which there is little, if any evidence of) weeks after the collapses.
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 20 2006, 07:44 PM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 20 2006, 03:36 PM)
Your alternative is what... ?
Amazing Supersonic Jet Fuel ... ? OR Amazing Underground Bellows... ?
I have yet to see any evidence presented for these alternative theories.
Do you expect to present any soon?
No
In the TRADITION of most CT'er posts of POSSIBLE EXPLANATIONS (i.e. SQUIBS) in this thread, it is up to YOU to prove THESE DIDN'T happen.
Arthur
I am sorry to disturb you, but I need not prove anything...
I am examining the official story... (and find it deficient in explainations).
You are defending the 'official story'.
I may provide alternative plausible postulations, to see how (or what evidence you put forward to support your belief), but have no need to 'prove' any of these plausible alternatives.
You, on the other hand, allow for NO explainations (or plausibilities) outside of your narrow view.
You are utterly 'convinced' that your beliefs are based upon irrefutable evidence.
If I provide theoretical alternatives, and you choose to prove such alternatives 'impossible', then it behooves YOU (and NOT I ) to prove your theories...
...something you have been very remiss in doing with regard to your 'Amazing Supersonic JetFuel' or 'Amazing Underground Bellows' theories.
It is YOU who claim the 'official story' (whatever that currently IS)... is correct.
We have provided innumerable 'pieces of evidence' to challenge the official theory.
Your turn to 'prove' that the official theory is TRUE.
It is not 'us' who is under 'examination', but rather 'YOU'.
Cheers
Amazing Supersonic Jet Fuel ... ? OR Amazing Underground Bellows... ?
I have yet to see any evidence presented for these alternative theories.
Do you expect to present any soon?
No
In the TRADITION of most CT'er posts of POSSIBLE EXPLANATIONS (i.e. SQUIBS) in this thread, it is up to YOU to prove THESE DIDN'T happen.
Arthur
I am sorry to disturb you, but I need not prove anything...
I am examining the official story... (and find it deficient in explainations).
You are defending the 'official story'.
I may provide alternative plausible postulations, to see how (or what evidence you put forward to support your belief), but have no need to 'prove' any of these plausible alternatives.
You, on the other hand, allow for NO explainations (or plausibilities) outside of your narrow view.
You are utterly 'convinced' that your beliefs are based upon irrefutable evidence.
If I provide theoretical alternatives, and you choose to prove such alternatives 'impossible', then it behooves YOU (and NOT I ) to prove your theories...
...something you have been very remiss in doing with regard to your 'Amazing Supersonic JetFuel' or 'Amazing Underground Bellows' theories.
It is YOU who claim the 'official story' (whatever that currently IS)... is correct.
We have provided innumerable 'pieces of evidence' to challenge the official theory.
Your turn to 'prove' that the official theory is TRUE.
It is not 'us' who is under 'examination', but rather 'YOU'.
Cheers
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 20 2006, 02:26 PM)
So Fogie,
What you are claiming is that they used Thermite to cut enough of the massive columns in the basement of the WTC towers to cause it to collapse.
And that the resulting melted steel is what we see being plucked from the debris pile (after its cooled down a tad).
Correct?
Arthur
I'm saying it's likely that thermite was used. Yellow-hot metal in an oxygen-starved underground environment, after six weeks of cooling time; unless someone shows me some plausible mechanism to cause this sponteneous self-starting sustained underground blast furnace, it's just a wild guess without merit.
"At any given location, the duration of [air, not steel] temperatures near 1,000oC was about 15 min to 20 min. The rest of the time, the calculated temperatures were near 500oC or below.” (NIST, 2005, p. 127, emphasis added.)"
What you are claiming is that they used Thermite to cut enough of the massive columns in the basement of the WTC towers to cause it to collapse.
And that the resulting melted steel is what we see being plucked from the debris pile (after its cooled down a tad).
Correct?
Arthur
I'm saying it's likely that thermite was used. Yellow-hot metal in an oxygen-starved underground environment, after six weeks of cooling time; unless someone shows me some plausible mechanism to cause this sponteneous self-starting sustained underground blast furnace, it's just a wild guess without merit.
"At any given location, the duration of [air, not steel] temperatures near 1,000oC was about 15 min to 20 min. The rest of the time, the calculated temperatures were near 500oC or below.” (NIST, 2005, p. 127, emphasis added.)"
Actually his calculations as to the amount of thermite needed to melt a core column seem to be reasonably precise.
His conclusion is that one would need 762 kg thermite for an "Average" column and 1524 kg for the largest columns.
We know that more than 10 columns have to be taken out, so the minimal amount of thermite is 7,620 kg or over 7 tons per tower.
Of course there ARE pictures of the cleanup when they get to the bottom of each of the towers and there is NO picture of a bunch of melted blobs of steel, each almost a ton in size. We would expect at LEAST 20 of these blobs. We would also expect to see at least 20 core columns that had their ends MELTED.
Gee, not ONE picture of those EITHER.
Those MIB sure do GOOD work.
"Look into my "thingy".
FLASH.
Arthur
His conclusion is that one would need 762 kg thermite for an "Average" column and 1524 kg for the largest columns.
We know that more than 10 columns have to be taken out, so the minimal amount of thermite is 7,620 kg or over 7 tons per tower.
Of course there ARE pictures of the cleanup when they get to the bottom of each of the towers and there is NO picture of a bunch of melted blobs of steel, each almost a ton in size. We would expect at LEAST 20 of these blobs. We would also expect to see at least 20 core columns that had their ends MELTED.
Gee, not ONE picture of those EITHER.
Those MIB sure do GOOD work.
"Look into my "thingy".
FLASH.
Arthur
Actually the NIST did a nice job of proving the official story. They use photographic evidence, computer modeling and such which others have done as in the case of Lamont and Lane. Anyone who doubts the results of the tests can simply recreate the controlled experiments. Simple... No one has challenged the official story with any creadible story of their own.
I don't see us defending any story. We are simply exposing the constant barrage of lies coming from the CT camp. As in the most recent Lamont and Lane quotes.
I don't see us defending any story. We are simply exposing the constant barrage of lies coming from the CT camp. As in the most recent Lamont and Lane quotes.
QUOTE (Foxx+)
It is not 'us' who is under 'examination', but rather 'YOU'.
Arthur
Arthur
QUOTE (computer fogie+Feb 20 2006, 08:23 PM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 20 2006, 02:26 PM)
So Fogie,
What you are claiming is that they used Thermite to cut enough of the massive columns in the basement of the WTC towers to cause it to collapse.
And that the resulting melted steel is what we see being plucked from the debris pile (after its cooled down a tad).
Correct?
Arthur
I'm saying it's likely that thermite was used. Yellow-hot metal in an oxygen-starved underground environment, after six weeks of cooling time; unless someone shows me some plausible mechanism to cause this sponteneous self-starting sustained underground blast furnace, it's just a wild guess without merit.
"At any given location, the duration of [air, not steel] temperatures near 1,000oC was about 15 min to 20 min. The rest of the time, the calculated temperatures were near 500oC or below.” (NIST, 2005, p. 127, emphasis added.)"
Let me refresh your memory...
The typical Foxx answer to so many questions. The paranoid, "the men-in-black" did it.
Van Romero changes his mind about explosives----MIB
Urologist site containing non-urology material ----MIB
People posting on forums who won't buy into CD on 9/11 ---MIB
No evidence of 'rivers of moleten steel'----MIB
Practically(if not, absolutely) NO engineers supporting the CD of the WTC buildings---MIB
What do "friendly local authorities".... have to do with "MIB" ?
Cheers
What you are claiming is that they used Thermite to cut enough of the massive columns in the basement of the WTC towers to cause it to collapse.
And that the resulting melted steel is what we see being plucked from the debris pile (after its cooled down a tad).
Correct?
Arthur
I'm saying it's likely that thermite was used. Yellow-hot metal in an oxygen-starved underground environment, after six weeks of cooling time; unless someone shows me some plausible mechanism to cause this sponteneous self-starting sustained underground blast furnace, it's just a wild guess without merit.
"At any given location, the duration of [air, not steel] temperatures near 1,000oC was about 15 min to 20 min. The rest of the time, the calculated temperatures were near 500oC or below.” (NIST, 2005, p. 127, emphasis added.)"
Let me refresh your memory...
QUOTE
Conspiracy sites like to bring up molten steel found 6 weeks after the buildings fell to suggest a bomb must have created the effect. The explanation doesn't go into the amount of explosive material needed because it would be an absurd amount. There is another explanation which is more plausible.
Despite repeated calculations showing that the energy released simply from the kinetic collapse is on the close order of a small nuclear weapon, without even mentioning the energy contents of the millions of tons of paper, wood, plastic, etc. that were on the floors and a large percentage of which would be in the rubble pile and heated to ignition point by the heat from the kinetic energy dissipated by the collapse.
My best estimate at 13 psf by 35,000 sf/floor by 110 floors by about 30% combustibles, 60% metal and other non-combustible items, by the energy content of common garbage, gives a lot more energy than the energy of the collapse. The insulation provided in that debris pile was apparently pretty good, and that’s not surprising. Rock and concrete really are bad heat conductors, air isn’t much better, and steel while capable isn’t all that good, as you can tell from the fact that the jaws of the shovel aren’t melting. Ever hear of “rock wool?” It’s insulation; look it up. You’ll get the idea pretty quick.
There’s two more factors I’ll throw in: first, a certain amount of the office materials didn’t make it into the debris pile, perhaps as much as 10% of it just got scattered all over lower Manhattan island. Second, a few floors worth had already burned. So when the time comes, I’ll take three floors out, and then another 10%. You’ll be surprised, I think, at how much energy there is involved.
This, by the way, is a place where Jim Hoffman makes a serious mistake; in his paper on the dust cloud, he fails to note that he has to ADD THE HEAT BACK IN when he’s totaling things up at the end. This is a violation of conservation of energy, the First Law of Thermodynamics (and a foundational law of physics). The energy dissipated during the fall is about 250 or 300 GJ, and the leftover energy at impact is about 600 GJ. So it’s about a quarter kiloton of TNT for the North tower and about a fifth of a kiloton for the South tower; that’s still a hell of a lot of energy, more than sufficient to liquefy a pretty healthy chunk of steel, and it doesn’t change the fact that there’s a lot more energy in the office contents.
You should be aware that anytime you do mechanical work, the energy you do it with doesn’t just “go away” or “get used up.” Energy that does work gets dissipated, and when that happens, it turns to heat. This is a well known fact of physics, specifically thermodynamics, that was proven early (or maybe it was late? no, I’m pretty sure it was EARLY) in the nineteenth century by the gentleman for whom the SI unit of energy is named, James Prescott Joule. Go look him up on Wikipedia, or elsewhere if you’re a newbie and believe what you read in the newspapers about Wikipedia. He did this experiment where he stirred water in buckets and showed it got hotter.
This, by the way, is a place where Jim Hoffman makes a serious mistake; in his paper on the dust cloud, he fails to note that he has to ADD THE HEAT BACK IN when he’s totaling things up at the end. This is a violation of conservation of energy, the First Law of Thermodynamics (and a foundational law of physics).
What distance do you drop the load from? The floor of initial collapse: 79 for the South tower, 97 for the North. It’s a variable in the program, you can change it for yourself and run it yourself, it’s a perl. Interestingly, going from a 39-story to a 13-story falling section doesn’t make a great deal of difference in the energy, and makes even less difference in the energy that’s left over when the building hits the ground.
A falling building is not like a bomb or a laser beam. But it makes heat all the same- just like all work makes heat. Feel the bottom of the bicycle pump after you’ve pumped the tire up. Where does that heat come from? Same place as this does.
While a 600GJ bomb would take out ten blocks in any direction, the WTC collapse obviously did not. While that’s true, you need to know that conservation of energy says that energy NEVER disappears. It ALWAYS winds up SOMEWHERE, and if this is energy capable of knocking buildings over for many blocks in all directions, and it didn’t knock them over, then where did it go and what did it do? Answer: it went into the rubble pile, and it melted and burned stuff in there.
There was energy spent “pancaking” or “snapping supports” if you believe those theories (I do not). Whether it was explosives or whether it was sheer mass and momentum that snapped them (and I have excellent reason to believe it was nothing but mass- you’ll see shortly), it STILL made heat, and that heat STILL went into the debris pile at the bottom. Heat is energy and energy NEVER just “goes away.”
All the collapse theories say that the weight of the top of the building is what caused the collapse… well that is HALF true. It was also pushing UP WITH EQUAL FORCE. This force was largely transmitted into the ground during the collapse, not the rubble afterwards. The STATIC FORCE of the building pushes down and the ground pushes up, when the DYNAMIC FORCE of the collapse occurs, it is local to whatever is moving; this is because it’s the MOTION that causes the DYNAMIC force, and that force is (and must be, to collapse the building) many times the static forces of the building just standing there.
Now, for the program:
**BEGIN PROGRAM**
#!/usr/bin/perl
$m = 4285500; # mass of one floor (kg)
$mt = 0; # mass of falling section
$fc = 39; # floor count of falling section (39 floors for 2 WTC)
$v1 = 0; # beginning velocity for the current step
$v2 = 0; # velocity at impact
$v3 = 0; # ending velocity for prior step
$p = 0; # current momentum
$ke1 = 0; # kinetic energy at impact
$ke2 = 0; # kinetic energy after impact
$de = 0; # total energy dissipated so far
$a = 9.80665; # acceleration of gravity (constant)
$t = 0; # cumulative time taken
$t1 = 0; # time taken for this step
$d = 3.8; # distance between floors (418m/110 stories)
$mt = $fc*$m; # initialize mass of falling section
$rfc = 110 – $fc;# initialize remaining floor count of uncollapsed floors
while($rfc > 0) {
$v1 = $v3; # starting velocity is ending for last step
$v2 = (($v1*2)+((2$a)*$d))**0.5; # impact velocity for this step by formula
print(“Impact velocity for story ”, $rfc, ” was ”, $v2, “n”);
$p = $mt*$v2; # momentum at impact
print(“Impulse delivered for story ”, $rfc, ” was ”, $p, “n”);
$ke1 = ($mt*($v2**2))/2; # kinetic energy at impact
print(“Impact kinetic energy for story ”, $rfc, ” was ”, $ke1, “n”);
$fc++; # increment falling floor count
$mt = $fc*$m; # update mass of falling section
$v3 = $p/$mt; # new velocity
print(“Velocity after impact for story ”, $rfc, ” was ”, $v3, “n”);
$ke2 = ($mt*($v3**2))/2; # kinetic energy after impact
print(“Remaining kinetic energy for story ”, $rfc, ” was ”, $ke2, “n”);
$de += $ke1 – $ke2; # add dissipated kinetic energy to total
print(“The kinetic energy dissipated for story ”, $rfc, ” was ”, $ke1 – $ke2, ”
n”);
$t1 = $d/(($v2 + $v1)/2); # time for this step by formula
print(“The time spent collapsing story ”, $rfc, ” was ”, $t1, “n”);
$t += $t1; # add step time to running total
$rfc—; # decrement remaining floor count
}
print(“The total time was ”, $t, “n”);
print(“The total energy dissipated during the collapse was ”, $de, “n”);
print(“The remaining kinetic energy at the end of the collapse was ”, $ke2, “n”
);
**END PROGRAM**
It’s a perl, you can download perl for just about anything from www.perl.org or somewhere they point. If you’re going to get involved in CS, somewhere you’re going to encounter perl, and now’s as good a time to learn it as any. I highly recommend the O’Reilly Press perl book which happens to be by the inventors of the language. Just so you can muddle your way through and derive the equations from the code above, * is multiplication, ** is raising to a power (and don’t forget that a fractional power is a root; so **0.5 is the square-root operation). The rest of the symbols are obvious, and the parentheses work the same way as they do in standard math notation. You should be aware that the single = in most languages simply ASSIGNS the value of what’s on the right to the thing on the left; usually, you’re required to put a single variable on the left of an =. The double == TESTS whether one value is equal to another, returning 1 or TRUE if it is, and 0 or FALSE if it is not.
-Schneibster
Despite repeated calculations showing that the energy released simply from the kinetic collapse is on the close order of a small nuclear weapon, without even mentioning the energy contents of the millions of tons of paper, wood, plastic, etc. that were on the floors and a large percentage of which would be in the rubble pile and heated to ignition point by the heat from the kinetic energy dissipated by the collapse.
My best estimate at 13 psf by 35,000 sf/floor by 110 floors by about 30% combustibles, 60% metal and other non-combustible items, by the energy content of common garbage, gives a lot more energy than the energy of the collapse. The insulation provided in that debris pile was apparently pretty good, and that’s not surprising. Rock and concrete really are bad heat conductors, air isn’t much better, and steel while capable isn’t all that good, as you can tell from the fact that the jaws of the shovel aren’t melting. Ever hear of “rock wool?” It’s insulation; look it up. You’ll get the idea pretty quick.
There’s two more factors I’ll throw in: first, a certain amount of the office materials didn’t make it into the debris pile, perhaps as much as 10% of it just got scattered all over lower Manhattan island. Second, a few floors worth had already burned. So when the time comes, I’ll take three floors out, and then another 10%. You’ll be surprised, I think, at how much energy there is involved.
This, by the way, is a place where Jim Hoffman makes a serious mistake; in his paper on the dust cloud, he fails to note that he has to ADD THE HEAT BACK IN when he’s totaling things up at the end. This is a violation of conservation of energy, the First Law of Thermodynamics (and a foundational law of physics). The energy dissipated during the fall is about 250 or 300 GJ, and the leftover energy at impact is about 600 GJ. So it’s about a quarter kiloton of TNT for the North tower and about a fifth of a kiloton for the South tower; that’s still a hell of a lot of energy, more than sufficient to liquefy a pretty healthy chunk of steel, and it doesn’t change the fact that there’s a lot more energy in the office contents.
You should be aware that anytime you do mechanical work, the energy you do it with doesn’t just “go away” or “get used up.” Energy that does work gets dissipated, and when that happens, it turns to heat. This is a well known fact of physics, specifically thermodynamics, that was proven early (or maybe it was late? no, I’m pretty sure it was EARLY) in the nineteenth century by the gentleman for whom the SI unit of energy is named, James Prescott Joule. Go look him up on Wikipedia, or elsewhere if you’re a newbie and believe what you read in the newspapers about Wikipedia. He did this experiment where he stirred water in buckets and showed it got hotter.
This, by the way, is a place where Jim Hoffman makes a serious mistake; in his paper on the dust cloud, he fails to note that he has to ADD THE HEAT BACK IN when he’s totaling things up at the end. This is a violation of conservation of energy, the First Law of Thermodynamics (and a foundational law of physics).
What distance do you drop the load from? The floor of initial collapse: 79 for the South tower, 97 for the North. It’s a variable in the program, you can change it for yourself and run it yourself, it’s a perl. Interestingly, going from a 39-story to a 13-story falling section doesn’t make a great deal of difference in the energy, and makes even less difference in the energy that’s left over when the building hits the ground.
A falling building is not like a bomb or a laser beam. But it makes heat all the same- just like all work makes heat. Feel the bottom of the bicycle pump after you’ve pumped the tire up. Where does that heat come from? Same place as this does.
While a 600GJ bomb would take out ten blocks in any direction, the WTC collapse obviously did not. While that’s true, you need to know that conservation of energy says that energy NEVER disappears. It ALWAYS winds up SOMEWHERE, and if this is energy capable of knocking buildings over for many blocks in all directions, and it didn’t knock them over, then where did it go and what did it do? Answer: it went into the rubble pile, and it melted and burned stuff in there.
There was energy spent “pancaking” or “snapping supports” if you believe those theories (I do not). Whether it was explosives or whether it was sheer mass and momentum that snapped them (and I have excellent reason to believe it was nothing but mass- you’ll see shortly), it STILL made heat, and that heat STILL went into the debris pile at the bottom. Heat is energy and energy NEVER just “goes away.”
All the collapse theories say that the weight of the top of the building is what caused the collapse… well that is HALF true. It was also pushing UP WITH EQUAL FORCE. This force was largely transmitted into the ground during the collapse, not the rubble afterwards. The STATIC FORCE of the building pushes down and the ground pushes up, when the DYNAMIC FORCE of the collapse occurs, it is local to whatever is moving; this is because it’s the MOTION that causes the DYNAMIC force, and that force is (and must be, to collapse the building) many times the static forces of the building just standing there.
Now, for the program:
**BEGIN PROGRAM**
#!/usr/bin/perl
$m = 4285500; # mass of one floor (kg)
$mt = 0; # mass of falling section
$fc = 39; # floor count of falling section (39 floors for 2 WTC)
$v1 = 0; # beginning velocity for the current step
$v2 = 0; # velocity at impact
$v3 = 0; # ending velocity for prior step
$p = 0; # current momentum
$ke1 = 0; # kinetic energy at impact
$ke2 = 0; # kinetic energy after impact
$de = 0; # total energy dissipated so far
$a = 9.80665; # acceleration of gravity (constant)
$t = 0; # cumulative time taken
$t1 = 0; # time taken for this step
$d = 3.8; # distance between floors (418m/110 stories)
$mt = $fc*$m; # initialize mass of falling section
$rfc = 110 – $fc;# initialize remaining floor count of uncollapsed floors
while($rfc > 0) {
$v1 = $v3; # starting velocity is ending for last step
$v2 = (($v1*2)+((2$a)*$d))**0.5; # impact velocity for this step by formula
print(“Impact velocity for story ”, $rfc, ” was ”, $v2, “n”);
$p = $mt*$v2; # momentum at impact
print(“Impulse delivered for story ”, $rfc, ” was ”, $p, “n”);
$ke1 = ($mt*($v2**2))/2; # kinetic energy at impact
print(“Impact kinetic energy for story ”, $rfc, ” was ”, $ke1, “n”);
$fc++; # increment falling floor count
$mt = $fc*$m; # update mass of falling section
$v3 = $p/$mt; # new velocity
print(“Velocity after impact for story ”, $rfc, ” was ”, $v3, “n”);
$ke2 = ($mt*($v3**2))/2; # kinetic energy after impact
print(“Remaining kinetic energy for story ”, $rfc, ” was ”, $ke2, “n”);
$de += $ke1 – $ke2; # add dissipated kinetic energy to total
print(“The kinetic energy dissipated for story ”, $rfc, ” was ”, $ke1 – $ke2, ”
n”);
$t1 = $d/(($v2 + $v1)/2); # time for this step by formula
print(“The time spent collapsing story ”, $rfc, ” was ”, $t1, “n”);
$t += $t1; # add step time to running total
$rfc—; # decrement remaining floor count
}
print(“The total time was ”, $t, “n”);
print(“The total energy dissipated during the collapse was ”, $de, “n”);
print(“The remaining kinetic energy at the end of the collapse was ”, $ke2, “n”
);
**END PROGRAM**
It’s a perl, you can download perl for just about anything from www.perl.org or somewhere they point. If you’re going to get involved in CS, somewhere you’re going to encounter perl, and now’s as good a time to learn it as any. I highly recommend the O’Reilly Press perl book which happens to be by the inventors of the language. Just so you can muddle your way through and derive the equations from the code above, * is multiplication, ** is raising to a power (and don’t forget that a fractional power is a root; so **0.5 is the square-root operation). The rest of the symbols are obvious, and the parentheses work the same way as they do in standard math notation. You should be aware that the single = in most languages simply ASSIGNS the value of what’s on the right to the thing on the left; usually, you’re required to put a single variable on the left of an =. The double == TESTS whether one value is equal to another, returning 1 or TRUE if it is, and 0 or FALSE if it is not.
-Schneibster
QUOTE (yesitdid+Feb 20 2006, 07:25 PM)
QUOTE
Just a wild guess on my part, but... maybe they received a visit from their friendly local authorities ? ... in one way or another
The typical Foxx answer to so many questions. The paranoid, "the men-in-black" did it.
Van Romero changes his mind about explosives----MIB
Urologist site containing non-urology material ----MIB
People posting on forums who won't buy into CD on 9/11 ---MIB
No evidence of 'rivers of moleten steel'----MIB
Practically(if not, absolutely) NO engineers supporting the CD of the WTC buildings---MIB
What do "friendly local authorities".... have to do with "MIB" ?
Cheers
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 20 2006, 04:16 PM)
I need not prove anything...
I may provide alternative plausible postulations, .... but have no need to 'prove' any of these plausible alternatives.
And here we have the CT'ers CREED.
No wonder these guys think they are actually scientists.
They haven't a CLUE as to the scientific method.
Arthur
I may provide alternative plausible postulations, .... but have no need to 'prove' any of these plausible alternatives.
And here we have the CT'ers CREED.
No wonder these guys think they are actually scientists.
They haven't a CLUE as to the scientific method.
Arthur
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 20 2006, 08:25 PM)
"Look into my "thingy".
FLASH.
Arthur
What? Where am I? Who are you? What were we talking about?
FLASH.
Arthur
What? Where am I? Who are you? What were we talking about?
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 20 2006, 07:44 PM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 20 2006, 03:36 PM)
Your alternative is what... ?
Amazing Supersonic Jet Fuel ... ? OR Amazing Underground Bellows... ?
I have yet to see any evidence presented for these alternative theories.
Do you expect to present any soon?
No
In the TRADITION of most CT'er posts of POSSIBLE EXPLANATIONS (i.e. SQUIBS) in this thread, it is up to YOU to prove THESE DIDN'T happen.
Arthur
Ehhhhhh ????
How can anyone prove a 'negative'?
You seem to be asking me to prove that 'squibs' DIDN'T happen. !!!???
That is not MY contention... it's YOURS!
It is quite obvious to all that there were lateral ejections of dust & debris far below the collapse initiation.
As the Chinese say... "You can NOT wake up a man who is pretending to be asleep".
Cheers
Nice work, arthur!
You are finally beginning to see
Now.... how about getting back to the issues?
I presented an 'alternative' to the thermobaric jet fuel theory.
Is such a presentation absolutely ridiculous?
If so... how???
Cheers
Amazing Supersonic Jet Fuel ... ? OR Amazing Underground Bellows... ?
I have yet to see any evidence presented for these alternative theories.
Do you expect to present any soon?
No
In the TRADITION of most CT'er posts of POSSIBLE EXPLANATIONS (i.e. SQUIBS) in this thread, it is up to YOU to prove THESE DIDN'T happen.
Arthur
Ehhhhhh ????
QUOTE
In the TRADITION of most CT'er posts of POSSIBLE EXPLANATIONS (i.e. SQUIBS) in this thread, it is up to YOU to prove THESE DIDN'T happen.
How can anyone prove a 'negative'?
You seem to be asking me to prove that 'squibs' DIDN'T happen. !!!???
That is not MY contention... it's YOURS!
It is quite obvious to all that there were lateral ejections of dust & debris far below the collapse initiation.
As the Chinese say... "You can NOT wake up a man who is pretending to be asleep".
Cheers
QUOTE
originally posted by arthur
Those MIB sure do GOOD work.
"Look into my "thingy".
FLASH.
Arthur
Those MIB sure do GOOD work.
"Look into my "thingy".
FLASH.
Arthur
Nice work, arthur!
You are finally beginning to see
Now.... how about getting back to the issues?
I presented an 'alternative' to the thermobaric jet fuel theory.
Is such a presentation absolutely ridiculous?
If so... how???
Cheers
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 20 2006, 04:50 PM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 20 2006, 07:44 PM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 20 2006, 03:36 PM)
Your alternative is what... ?
Amazing Supersonic Jet Fuel ... ? OR Amazing Underground Bellows... ?
I have yet to see any evidence presented for these alternative theories.
Do you expect to present any soon?
No
In the TRADITION of most CT'er posts of POSSIBLE EXPLANATIONS (i.e. SQUIBS) in this thread, it is up to YOU to prove THESE DIDN'T happen.
Arthur
Ehhhhhh ????
How can anyone prove a 'negative'?
You seem to be asking me to prove that 'squibs' DIDN'T happen. !!!???
That is not MY contention... it's YOURS!
It is quite obvious to all that there were lateral ejections of dust & debris far below the collapse initiation.
NO,
CT'ers CLAIM that the lateral ejections are caused by "squibs'.
We ask for PROOF that the lateral ejections were CAUSED by squibs and not just by the expulsion of air. We point to the growth over time of the expulsion, much less than SUPERSONIC, as proof that it WASN'T a HIGH EXPLOSIVE. We point to the fact that only THAT window blew out, unlike the severe over-pressure that would blow out most of the windows on the floor, indicating use of a High Explosive. We point to the nearly half a million cubic feet of air that is displaced when a floor collapses as a source of high pressure air on the lower floors. We point out the chaotic actions within the tower. We point out the many continuous or overlapping elevator shafts running between the floors. We point out how one tiny little "squib" (or even several) could have no impact on a tower already undergoing global collapse. We present All of this (and more) as POTENTIAL explanations for why it wasn't a HIGH EXPLOSIVE that caused this ejection.
But even after all that and even when no one produces any PROOF the lateral ejections were the result of SQUIBs.
CT'ers PRATTLE on like SQUIBS are a GIVEN.
So in that spirit, why has no one shown any PROOF that the air to the fires was not caused by a bellows action created in the debris pile by the loading of dumptrucks?
Arthur
I presented an 'alternative' to the thermobaric jet fuel theory.
Is such a presentation absolutely ridiculous?
If so... how???
Yes, it is ridiculous.
Particularly the part about Aluminum Silicate and Nitrogen Tetroxide being baked together to make a solid.
I do think you should procure a couple of gallons of N2O4 and a few pounds of AlSiO5 and try this at home.
Follow their instructions, mix it together as a slurry and then bake it into a solid.
Let us know how it turns out.
Arthur
(PS: as an aid in procurement N2O4 is one part (oxidizer) of the hypergolic fuel used in Titan missiles)
Gee... you got me stumped there, Clive.
Any takers?
This should be good !
Amazing Supersonic Jet Fuel ... ? OR Amazing Underground Bellows... ?
I have yet to see any evidence presented for these alternative theories.
Do you expect to present any soon?
No
In the TRADITION of most CT'er posts of POSSIBLE EXPLANATIONS (i.e. SQUIBS) in this thread, it is up to YOU to prove THESE DIDN'T happen.
Arthur
Ehhhhhh ????
QUOTE
In the TRADITION of most CT'er posts of POSSIBLE EXPLANATIONS (i.e. SQUIBS) in this thread, it is up to YOU to prove THESE DIDN'T happen.
How can anyone prove a 'negative'?
You seem to be asking me to prove that 'squibs' DIDN'T happen. !!!???
That is not MY contention... it's YOURS!
It is quite obvious to all that there were lateral ejections of dust & debris far below the collapse initiation.
NO,
CT'ers CLAIM that the lateral ejections are caused by "squibs'.
We ask for PROOF that the lateral ejections were CAUSED by squibs and not just by the expulsion of air. We point to the growth over time of the expulsion, much less than SUPERSONIC, as proof that it WASN'T a HIGH EXPLOSIVE. We point to the fact that only THAT window blew out, unlike the severe over-pressure that would blow out most of the windows on the floor, indicating use of a High Explosive. We point to the nearly half a million cubic feet of air that is displaced when a floor collapses as a source of high pressure air on the lower floors. We point out the chaotic actions within the tower. We point out the many continuous or overlapping elevator shafts running between the floors. We point out how one tiny little "squib" (or even several) could have no impact on a tower already undergoing global collapse. We present All of this (and more) as POTENTIAL explanations for why it wasn't a HIGH EXPLOSIVE that caused this ejection.
But even after all that and even when no one produces any PROOF the lateral ejections were the result of SQUIBs.
CT'ers PRATTLE on like SQUIBS are a GIVEN.
So in that spirit, why has no one shown any PROOF that the air to the fires was not caused by a bellows action created in the debris pile by the loading of dumptrucks?
Arthur
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 20 2006, 05:00 PM)
I presented an 'alternative' to the thermobaric jet fuel theory.
Is such a presentation absolutely ridiculous?
If so... how???
Yes, it is ridiculous.
Particularly the part about Aluminum Silicate and Nitrogen Tetroxide being baked together to make a solid.
I do think you should procure a couple of gallons of N2O4 and a few pounds of AlSiO5 and try this at home.
Follow their instructions, mix it together as a slurry and then bake it into a solid.
Let us know how it turns out.
Arthur
(PS: as an aid in procurement N2O4 is one part (oxidizer) of the hypergolic fuel used in Titan missiles)
QUOTE
by arthur
So in that spirit, why has no one shown any PROOF that the air to the fires was not caused by a bellows action created in the debris pile by the loading of dumptrucks.
Arthur
So in that spirit, why has no one shown any PROOF that the air to the fires was not caused by a bellows action created in the debris pile by the loading of dumptrucks.
Arthur
Gee... you got me stumped there, Clive.
Any takers?
This should be good !
QUOTE (computer+Feb 20 2006, 06:11 PM)
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QUOTE (ER91J9W7mQ+Feb 20 2006, 06:32 PM)
QUOTE (computer+Feb 20 2006, 06:11 PM)
IoMJv0sYoRO 7AgMXTQOMd gcRNHHEQaKxbKP
IoMJv0sYoRO 7AgMXTQOMd gcRNHHEQaKxbKP
A typical puppet response.
"geee... I'm stumped...
Like Plato said...
"Some men speak because they have something to say... while 'other men' speak merely because they have to say... 'something'
Based upon what 'IoMJv0sYoRO 7AgMXTQOMd gcRNHHEQaKxbKP' had to say (in the above post)...
I think any reasonable person will conclude "Guest" is an idiot...
(but highly supportive & supported by the 'gravity-driven collapse' crew, as another obfuscatory tactic)...
there is NO level 'TOO LOW' to sink to... to support 'our' position.
How's the lawsuit coming, Schneiby ???
IoMJv0sYoRO 7AgMXTQOMd gcRNHHEQaKxbKP
A typical puppet response.
"geee... I'm stumped...
Like Plato said...
"Some men speak because they have something to say... while 'other men' speak merely because they have to say... 'something'
Based upon what 'IoMJv0sYoRO 7AgMXTQOMd gcRNHHEQaKxbKP' had to say (in the above post)...
I think any reasonable person will conclude "Guest" is an idiot...
(but highly supportive & supported by the 'gravity-driven collapse' crew, as another obfuscatory tactic)...
there is NO level 'TOO LOW' to sink to... to support 'our' position.
How's the lawsuit coming, Schneiby ???
Error...
Duplicate post deleted.
Duplicate post deleted.
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 20 2006, 04:10 PM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 20 2006, 04:50 PM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 20 2006, 07:44 PM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 20 2006, 03:36 PM)
Your alternative is what... ?
Amazing Supersonic Jet Fuel ... ? OR Amazing Underground Bellows... ?
I have yet to see any evidence presented for these alternative theories.
Do you expect to present any soon?
No
In the TRADITION of most CT'er posts of POSSIBLE EXPLANATIONS (i.e. SQUIBS) in this thread, it is up to YOU to prove THESE DIDN'T happen.
Arthur
Ehhhhhh ????
How can anyone prove a 'negative'?
You seem to be asking me to prove that 'squibs' DIDN'T happen. !!!???
That is not MY contention... it's YOURS!
It is quite obvious to all that there were lateral ejections of dust & debris far below the collapse initiation.
NO,
CT'ers CLAIM that the lateral ejections are caused by "squibs'.
We ask for PROOF that the lateral ejections were CAUSED by squibs and not just by the expulsion of air. We point to the growth over time of the expulsion, much less than SUPERSONIC, as proof that it WASN'T a HIGH EXPLOSIVE. We point to the fact that only THAT window blew out, unlike the severe over-pressure that would blow out most of the windows on the floor, indicating use of a High Explosive. We point to the nearly half a million cubic feet of air that is displaced when a floor collapses as a source of high pressure air on the lower floors. We point out the chaotic actions within the tower. We point out the many continuous or overlapping elevator shafts running between the floors. We point out how one tiny little "squib" (or even several) could have no impact on a tower already undergoing global collapse. We present All of this (and more) as POTENTIAL explanations for why it wasn't a HIGH EXPLOSIVE that caused this ejection.
But even after all that and even when no one produces any PROOF the lateral ejections were the result of SQUIBs.
CT'ers PRATTLE on like SQUIBS are a GIVEN.
So in that spirit, why has no one shown any PROOF that the air to the fires was not caused by a bellows action created in the debris pile by the loading of dumptrucks?
Arthur
After conidering the physical evidence (pics of ejected material exploding out a few windows of the WTC towers) and all the explanations for the evidence I've seen, I now believe the squibs were likely to have been caused by air, and not explosives. There's no sign of actual colapse in the areas of the squibs. CD wouldn't have sent matter out of only one or two windows.
This is to say that of the observable photographic records, this anomaly is no longer on my list of suspect phenomena.
Amazing Supersonic Jet Fuel ... ? OR Amazing Underground Bellows... ?
I have yet to see any evidence presented for these alternative theories.
Do you expect to present any soon?
No
In the TRADITION of most CT'er posts of POSSIBLE EXPLANATIONS (i.e. SQUIBS) in this thread, it is up to YOU to prove THESE DIDN'T happen.
Arthur
Ehhhhhh ????
QUOTE
In the TRADITION of most CT'er posts of POSSIBLE EXPLANATIONS (i.e. SQUIBS) in this thread, it is up to YOU to prove THESE DIDN'T happen.
How can anyone prove a 'negative'?
You seem to be asking me to prove that 'squibs' DIDN'T happen. !!!???
That is not MY contention... it's YOURS!
It is quite obvious to all that there were lateral ejections of dust & debris far below the collapse initiation.
NO,
CT'ers CLAIM that the lateral ejections are caused by "squibs'.
We ask for PROOF that the lateral ejections were CAUSED by squibs and not just by the expulsion of air. We point to the growth over time of the expulsion, much less than SUPERSONIC, as proof that it WASN'T a HIGH EXPLOSIVE. We point to the fact that only THAT window blew out, unlike the severe over-pressure that would blow out most of the windows on the floor, indicating use of a High Explosive. We point to the nearly half a million cubic feet of air that is displaced when a floor collapses as a source of high pressure air on the lower floors. We point out the chaotic actions within the tower. We point out the many continuous or overlapping elevator shafts running between the floors. We point out how one tiny little "squib" (or even several) could have no impact on a tower already undergoing global collapse. We present All of this (and more) as POTENTIAL explanations for why it wasn't a HIGH EXPLOSIVE that caused this ejection.
But even after all that and even when no one produces any PROOF the lateral ejections were the result of SQUIBs.
CT'ers PRATTLE on like SQUIBS are a GIVEN.
So in that spirit, why has no one shown any PROOF that the air to the fires was not caused by a bellows action created in the debris pile by the loading of dumptrucks?
Arthur
After conidering the physical evidence (pics of ejected material exploding out a few windows of the WTC towers) and all the explanations for the evidence I've seen, I now believe the squibs were likely to have been caused by air, and not explosives. There's no sign of actual colapse in the areas of the squibs. CD wouldn't have sent matter out of only one or two windows.
This is to say that of the observable photographic records, this anomaly is no longer on my list of suspect phenomena.
Quote of the day -
"Keep in mind RC is a scientist, you're just a CTer."
Thats from someone calling himself Common Sense.
It can be sometimes amusing but mostly tiresome watching these clowns deny that which anyone that has taken trouble to aquaint themselves with the construction of the towers knows is quite simply impossible. Such buildings could not have collapsed in the manner and at the speed they did, literally impossible absent extra energy. That is obvious without all the evidence showing demolition.
That we are asked to believe that not just one fell in this manner is insulting enough but three, one not even plane damaged, is quite beyond the pale. Is a class action for taking the piss out of the question, if they can be so bloody hard necked cant we?
Professor Jones has updated his paper with a minor aluminium thermite reaction experiment -
http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html
"Keep in mind RC is a scientist, you're just a CTer."
Thats from someone calling himself Common Sense.
It can be sometimes amusing but mostly tiresome watching these clowns deny that which anyone that has taken trouble to aquaint themselves with the construction of the towers knows is quite simply impossible. Such buildings could not have collapsed in the manner and at the speed they did, literally impossible absent extra energy. That is obvious without all the evidence showing demolition.
That we are asked to believe that not just one fell in this manner is insulting enough but three, one not even plane damaged, is quite beyond the pale. Is a class action for taking the piss out of the question, if they can be so bloody hard necked cant we?
Professor Jones has updated his paper with a minor aluminium thermite reaction experiment -
http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 20 2006, 09:49 PM)
QUOTE (ER91J9W7mQ+Feb 20 2006, 06:32 PM)
QUOTE (computer+Feb 20 2006, 06:11 PM)
IoMJv0sYoRO 7AgMXTQOMd gcRNHHEQaKxbKP
IoMJv0sYoRO 7AgMXTQOMd gcRNHHEQaKxbKP
A typical puppet response.
"geee... I'm stumped...
Like Plato said...
"Some men speak because they have something to say... while 'other men' speak merely because they have to say... 'something'
Based upon what 'IoMJv0sYoRO 7AgMXTQOMd gcRNHHEQaKxbKP' had to say (in the above post)...
I think any reasonable person will conclude "Guest" is an idiot...
(but highly supportive & supported by the 'gravity-driven collapse' crew, as another obfuscatory tactic)...
there is NO level 'TOO LOW' to sink to... to support 'our' position.
How's the lawsuit coming, Schneiby ???
Is there a particular reason why you would suppose that anyone would support such spam?
I know I don't support it!
How's that 'investigation' of the urology clinic coming. I think I can assume you have discovered dicck all!
IoMJv0sYoRO 7AgMXTQOMd gcRNHHEQaKxbKP
A typical puppet response.
"geee... I'm stumped...
Like Plato said...
"Some men speak because they have something to say... while 'other men' speak merely because they have to say... 'something'
Based upon what 'IoMJv0sYoRO 7AgMXTQOMd gcRNHHEQaKxbKP' had to say (in the above post)...
I think any reasonable person will conclude "Guest" is an idiot...
(but highly supportive & supported by the 'gravity-driven collapse' crew, as another obfuscatory tactic)...
there is NO level 'TOO LOW' to sink to... to support 'our' position.
How's the lawsuit coming, Schneiby ???
Is there a particular reason why you would suppose that anyone would support such spam?
I know I don't support it!
How's that 'investigation' of the urology clinic coming. I think I can assume you have discovered dicck all!
QUOTE (brian+Feb 20 2006, 10:11 PM)
Quote of the day -
"Keep in mind RC is a scientist, you're just a CTer."
Thats from someone calling himself Common Sense.
It is a quote which uses common sense. I think it worth repeating.
"Keep in mind RC is a scientist, you're just a CTer."
Thats from someone calling himself Common Sense.
It is a quote which uses common sense. I think it worth repeating.
QUOTE (computer fogie+Feb 20 2006, 09:53 PM)
After conidering the physical evidence (pics of ejected material exploding out a few windows of the WTC towers) and all the explanations for the evidence I've seen, I now believe the squibs were likely to have been caused by air, and not explosives. There's no sign of actual colapse in the areas of the squibs. CD wouldn't have sent matter out of only one or two windows.
This is to say that of the observable photographic records, this anomaly is no longer on my list of suspect phenomena.
Then it joins the 'pod planes' on the heap of discarded CD theories.
Good of you to say you can no longer accept this 'squib' theory.
This is to say that of the observable photographic records, this anomaly is no longer on my list of suspect phenomena.
Then it joins the 'pod planes' on the heap of discarded CD theories.
Good of you to say you can no longer accept this 'squib' theory.
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 20 2006, 05:07 PM)
QUOTE (computer fogie+Feb 20 2006, 12:08 PM)
WOW. Could you show us any precedents for these things? Wild stories of underground self-sustaining blast furnaces, that use office bulding contents to generate yellow-hot temps, for weeks at a time? Can any of you guys show us why we should believe a word of this?
Anything at all? Show us when any of this has ever happened before? Please?
I've never read wilder speculation in the years since 9/11.
Friction caused the temps underground? Combustible material in the rubble burning at yellow-hot temperature? Can you PLEASE tell us what could have burned at that temp, REGARDLESS of how long it burned? PLEASE??? Structural beams acting as tubes to feed, but not vent heat from, these blast furnaces?
Similarly, everything you said about the "jet fuel down the elevator shafts" makes no sense.
A fuel-air mix AHEAD of a PRECEDING explosion? How does THAT happen?
You official-story "supporters" are getting more and more transparent. Arthur first tells us there is no evidence for yellow-hot temps (after he had seen a pic of it), then tries to convince us yellow-hot temps are within normal fire temperatures. 1000 C is a normal office fire temp? PROVE IT. Why do you disagree with the official government report, which says the steel in the WTC probably didn't even reach a temp over 650 C??? Where did you get this 1000 C story?
Arthur, you've already been exposed as a sleazy liar working for government-connected entities. You're done, son.
Calling me a "lying sack of ***", and pretending you aren't being proven wrong time after time in this forum, isn't changing anyones mind.
Lets see, in answer to LSoS's latest dump
There ARE no precedents because there has never been this large of a burning office debris, steel and aluminum pile in history, you know ANYTHING REMOTELY SIMILAR TO THE PILE BURNING AT THE WTC SITE.
However, large debris piles do catch on fire and are hard to put out.
http://www.bsa.ca.gov/pdfs/reports/2003-113.pdf
(See page 20 for picture of debris pile that took 30 days to put the fire out)
The fire dept guy describes it as a BRIGHT RED hot oven.
Thermite is not RED HOT, its WHITE HOT. The Fire guy wouldn't have mistaken a THERMITE FIRE for an OFFICE MATERIAL FIRE.
He catagorized it as 1,500 F, which is BRIGHT RED.
Which is ~750 to 800 C
Which is within the range of debris pile fires.
As to 1,000 C temps in office fires:
Per NIST final report (Sec 6.12.3 - pg 132)
It was expected, and soon confirmed that the fires could generate temperatures up to 1,100 d C.
Furthermore, the temp of steel in the hour the the towers burned is not a constraining factor on the temp of steel within the burning pile.
The only liar is you as I don't work for a "govt connected" entity.
Which just reinforces your "Sack O' Shiit" status.
Arthur
COMPUTER FOGIE: Hi there! Just briefly.......
(1) I mentioned that the huge thermal mass of the rubble pile was PREHEATED by the gravitational energy imparted in the collapse. I was referring to Schneibster’s calculations (yet to be refuted by counter-calculations rather than handwaving) that the energy available, even discounting the later office fuel ‘burn energy’, was, and I quote:
Despite repeated calculations showing that the energy released simply from the kinetic collapse is on the close order of a small nuclear weapon, without even mentioning the energy contents of the millions of tons of paper, wood, plastic, etc. that were on the floors and a large percentage of which would be in the rubble pile and heated to ignition point by the heat from the kinetic energy dissipated by the collapse.
This VAST ENERGY existed IN the pile’s THERMAL MASS even BEFORE the fires. Not only would this concentrated ‘collapse’ heat in the pile have STARTED fires in the pile, it would have made the fires HOTTER because the ‘fuel’ materials were VERY HOT ALREADY, just like in a fuel ‘pre-burning/pre-heating’ system used in industry and regenerative-cooling/heating liquid rocket systems.
(2) Moreover, as has been pointed out by CTers, the dust blanket ‘insulation’ would make any burning areas like ‘reverberative’ furnaces PRECISELY because the heat could not RADIATE away AT ALL, but was inevitably put into the surrounding thermal mass. And when one mentions ‘cooling’ due to VENTING due to air passages in the pile, both small and large (and especially all those broken box girders acting like channels and chimneys in some areas), one can’t have it BOTH WAYS. Meaning that if there was air movement sufficient to ‘cool’, then there MUST have been sufficient to FEED combustion reactions! And if the air supply/movement is constrained somewhat, then ALL that air would do is feed the fires but NOT cool them as there wasn’t enough OPEN draughts AIR MASS MOVEMENTS to absorb and transport such quantities of heat energy being produced by combustion supplied by only sufficient air to BURN VERY HOT in those spots where natural chimney-effects were likely to occur at random. Firemen will tell you that any fire involving enclosed spaces and ‘height’ will produce their OWN cyclonic-wind conditions in that ‘channel/space’.
So we have VAST PREHEAT ENERGY, PLUS, VENTED FIRES AND RANDOM ‘HOT SPOTS’ DUE TO FIRE-INDUCED HIGH-SPEED AIR FEED DRAUGHTS. Plus of course any HIGHER-TEMP Aluminium etc METAL combustion in spots (whether ‘thermitic’ or CO2/H2O fed combustion). PLUS the INSUFFICIENT venting for ‘cooling’, PLUS the EFFECTIVE INSULATION by both DUST BLANKET and HUGE THERMAL MASS of the pile structure.
What need is there for further explanations, particularly ‘exotic’ ones, when the ENERGY/PROCESSES present were AMPLE to produce what transpired.
(3) Now, about the ‘fuel-air’ down the shafts: What I and others have posited is now apparently supported by information presented by none other than FOXX himself. Note the bolded passages in the relevant partial quote:
Anything at all? Show us when any of this has ever happened before? Please?
I've never read wilder speculation in the years since 9/11.
Friction caused the temps underground? Combustible material in the rubble burning at yellow-hot temperature? Can you PLEASE tell us what could have burned at that temp, REGARDLESS of how long it burned? PLEASE??? Structural beams acting as tubes to feed, but not vent heat from, these blast furnaces?
Similarly, everything you said about the "jet fuel down the elevator shafts" makes no sense.
A fuel-air mix AHEAD of a PRECEDING explosion? How does THAT happen?
You official-story "supporters" are getting more and more transparent. Arthur first tells us there is no evidence for yellow-hot temps (after he had seen a pic of it), then tries to convince us yellow-hot temps are within normal fire temperatures. 1000 C is a normal office fire temp? PROVE IT. Why do you disagree with the official government report, which says the steel in the WTC probably didn't even reach a temp over 650 C??? Where did you get this 1000 C story?
Arthur, you've already been exposed as a sleazy liar working for government-connected entities. You're done, son.
Calling me a "lying sack of ***", and pretending you aren't being proven wrong time after time in this forum, isn't changing anyones mind.
Lets see, in answer to LSoS's latest dump
There ARE no precedents because there has never been this large of a burning office debris, steel and aluminum pile in history, you know ANYTHING REMOTELY SIMILAR TO THE PILE BURNING AT THE WTC SITE.
However, large debris piles do catch on fire and are hard to put out.
http://www.bsa.ca.gov/pdfs/reports/2003-113.pdf
(See page 20 for picture of debris pile that took 30 days to put the fire out)
The fire dept guy describes it as a BRIGHT RED hot oven.
Thermite is not RED HOT, its WHITE HOT. The Fire guy wouldn't have mistaken a THERMITE FIRE for an OFFICE MATERIAL FIRE.
He catagorized it as 1,500 F, which is BRIGHT RED.
Which is ~750 to 800 C
Which is within the range of debris pile fires.
As to 1,000 C temps in office fires:
Per NIST final report (Sec 6.12.3 - pg 132)
It was expected, and soon confirmed that the fires could generate temperatures up to 1,100 d C.
Furthermore, the temp of steel in the hour the the towers burned is not a constraining factor on the temp of steel within the burning pile.
The only liar is you as I don't work for a "govt connected" entity.
Which just reinforces your "Sack O' Shiit" status.
Arthur
COMPUTER FOGIE: Hi there! Just briefly.......
(1) I mentioned that the huge thermal mass of the rubble pile was PREHEATED by the gravitational energy imparted in the collapse. I was referring to Schneibster’s calculations (yet to be refuted by counter-calculations rather than handwaving) that the energy available, even discounting the later office fuel ‘burn energy’, was, and I quote:
QUOTE (Schneibster+)
Despite repeated calculations showing that the energy released simply from the kinetic collapse is on the close order of a small nuclear weapon, without even mentioning the energy contents of the millions of tons of paper, wood, plastic, etc. that were on the floors and a large percentage of which would be in the rubble pile and heated to ignition point by the heat from the kinetic energy dissipated by the collapse.
This VAST ENERGY existed IN the pile’s THERMAL MASS even BEFORE the fires. Not only would this concentrated ‘collapse’ heat in the pile have STARTED fires in the pile, it would have made the fires HOTTER because the ‘fuel’ materials were VERY HOT ALREADY, just like in a fuel ‘pre-burning/pre-heating’ system used in industry and regenerative-cooling/heating liquid rocket systems.
(2) Moreover, as has been pointed out by CTers, the dust blanket ‘insulation’ would make any burning areas like ‘reverberative’ furnaces PRECISELY because the heat could not RADIATE away AT ALL, but was inevitably put into the surrounding thermal mass. And when one mentions ‘cooling’ due to VENTING due to air passages in the pile, both small and large (and especially all those broken box girders acting like channels and chimneys in some areas), one can’t have it BOTH WAYS. Meaning that if there was air movement sufficient to ‘cool’, then there MUST have been sufficient to FEED combustion reactions! And if the air supply/movement is constrained somewhat, then ALL that air would do is feed the fires but NOT cool them as there wasn’t enough OPEN draughts AIR MASS MOVEMENTS to absorb and transport such quantities of heat energy being produced by combustion supplied by only sufficient air to BURN VERY HOT in those spots where natural chimney-effects were likely to occur at random. Firemen will tell you that any fire involving enclosed spaces and ‘height’ will produce their OWN cyclonic-wind conditions in that ‘channel/space’.
So we have VAST PREHEAT ENERGY, PLUS, VENTED FIRES AND RANDOM ‘HOT SPOTS’ DUE TO FIRE-INDUCED HIGH-SPEED AIR FEED DRAUGHTS. Plus of course any HIGHER-TEMP Aluminium etc METAL combustion in spots (whether ‘thermitic’ or CO2/H2O fed combustion). PLUS the INSUFFICIENT venting for ‘cooling’, PLUS the EFFECTIVE INSULATION by both DUST BLANKET and HUGE THERMAL MASS of the pile structure.
What need is there for further explanations, particularly ‘exotic’ ones, when the ENERGY/PROCESSES present were AMPLE to produce what transpired.
(3) Now, about the ‘fuel-air’ down the shafts: What I and others have posited is now apparently supported by information presented by none other than FOXX himself. Note the bolded passages in the relevant partial quote:
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 20 2006, 01:55 AM)
>
>
>
The chief difference in METC unit (Multiple Explosives Transitional Container) design over traditional explosive devices moves away from a densely packed explosive core towards a large volume of highly explosive but low-density mass in the form of a gaseous cloud. In the normal bomb all explosive energy comes from a tightly packed core and must drive outward against air pressure and objects it encounters. It rapidly bleeds off energy at the square of the distance as it accumulates a wall of pressure resistance and a mass of heavy debris, which it must continually regather and push along.
The new design starts as a small device but transforms itself through simple means from a dense-core technology to a much larger gaseous-cloud state. Igniting the explosive cloud at any peripheral or central point creates a chain-reaction-like and progressively growing explosive force. As the force of the explosion moves outward, it continues to ignite fresh explosive materials as encountered and gains momentum rather than loosing it. Further, because the gaseous cloud is efficiently mixed explosive materials combined with abundant free-air oxygen, ignition is far more complete and productive>
>
>
As you can see, Foxx AGREES that UNBURNT fuel can be ‘explosively’ dispersed and mixed with ambient air and THEN exploded MORE devastatingly and faster and further afield. Only in the 9/11 case, the fuel-air was provided and driven by a prior plane impact/explosion which drives unburnt and -air-mixed jet fuel down the shafts ahead of it JUST AS FOXX DESCRIBES IN HIS ‘WEAPONS’ method. The only difference is the 9/11 process produced the ‘weapons’ conditions by ACCIDENT (just like the natural OKLO reactors occurred by accident rather than design).
.
ANYHOW, the point is that MANY things came together in such chaotic events which would ON THEIR OWN not have excited suspicion. It is only because such devastating and widespread PROCESSES present in 9/11 MUST BY PROBABILITY have at some points/areas have produced MANY ‘accidental’ configurations of ENERGY FLOWS and MECHANICAL EVENTS that would surprise but NOT baffle anyone with sufficient grasp of ALL the things going on in such a VAST/MASSIVE event space. That’s why it is incumbent on those with ‘exotic’ “explanations” to prove where these surprising/uncommon confluence of otherwise separately-prosaic events/processes could not have ‘converged’ on that day as seen. I hope you can see that no outlandish liberties with physics/chemistry/logic/commonsense has been taken by me, CF. Because in the one aspect, there was sufficient PREHEAT energy to make the pile’s thermal mass HOT, and then the fires did the rest in that ‘reverberative furnace’ configuration (which your own friends agree was effectively ‘insulated’ and sufficiently ‘vented’. And in the other aspect, the fuel-air driven by prior explosion front DOWN/UP/along now-opened’ shafts is, as FOXX has shown, quite plausible when one considers that the plane acted as the 'device' and the shaft air acted as the ambient air for the 'unburnt' portion of the 'device's charge' to mix with! The overall EFFECT is just as Foxx describes, too. Ciao all.
RC.
.
>
>
The chief difference in METC unit (Multiple Explosives Transitional Container) design over traditional explosive devices moves away from a densely packed explosive core towards a large volume of highly explosive but low-density mass in the form of a gaseous cloud. In the normal bomb all explosive energy comes from a tightly packed core and must drive outward against air pressure and objects it encounters. It rapidly bleeds off energy at the square of the distance as it accumulates a wall of pressure resistance and a mass of heavy debris, which it must continually regather and push along.
The new design starts as a small device but transforms itself through simple means from a dense-core technology to a much larger gaseous-cloud state. Igniting the explosive cloud at any peripheral or central point creates a chain-reaction-like and progressively growing explosive force. As the force of the explosion moves outward, it continues to ignite fresh explosive materials as encountered and gains momentum rather than loosing it. Further, because the gaseous cloud is efficiently mixed explosive materials combined with abundant free-air oxygen, ignition is far more complete and productive>
>
>
As you can see, Foxx AGREES that UNBURNT fuel can be ‘explosively’ dispersed and mixed with ambient air and THEN exploded MORE devastatingly and faster and further afield. Only in the 9/11 case, the fuel-air was provided and driven by a prior plane impact/explosion which drives unburnt and -air-mixed jet fuel down the shafts ahead of it JUST AS FOXX DESCRIBES IN HIS ‘WEAPONS’ method. The only difference is the 9/11 process produced the ‘weapons’ conditions by ACCIDENT (just like the natural OKLO reactors occurred by accident rather than design).
.
ANYHOW, the point is that MANY things came together in such chaotic events which would ON THEIR OWN not have excited suspicion. It is only because such devastating and widespread PROCESSES present in 9/11 MUST BY PROBABILITY have at some points/areas have produced MANY ‘accidental’ configurations of ENERGY FLOWS and MECHANICAL EVENTS that would surprise but NOT baffle anyone with sufficient grasp of ALL the things going on in such a VAST/MASSIVE event space. That’s why it is incumbent on those with ‘exotic’ “explanations” to prove where these surprising/uncommon confluence of otherwise separately-prosaic events/processes could not have ‘converged’ on that day as seen. I hope you can see that no outlandish liberties with physics/chemistry/logic/commonsense has been taken by me, CF. Because in the one aspect, there was sufficient PREHEAT energy to make the pile’s thermal mass HOT, and then the fires did the rest in that ‘reverberative furnace’ configuration (which your own friends agree was effectively ‘insulated’ and sufficiently ‘vented’. And in the other aspect, the fuel-air driven by prior explosion front DOWN/UP/along now-opened’ shafts is, as FOXX has shown, quite plausible when one considers that the plane acted as the 'device' and the shaft air acted as the ambient air for the 'unburnt' portion of the 'device's charge' to mix with! The overall EFFECT is just as Foxx describes, too. Ciao all.
RC.
.
QUOTE (yesitdid+Feb 20 2006, 11:12 PM)
QUOTE (computer fogie+Feb 20 2006, 09:53 PM)
After conidering the physical evidence (pics of ejected material exploding out a few windows of the WTC towers) and all the explanations for the evidence I've seen, I now believe the squibs were likely to have been caused by air, and not explosives. There's no sign of actual colapse in the areas of the squibs. CD wouldn't have sent matter out of only one or two windows.
This is to say that of the observable photographic records, this anomaly is no longer on my list of suspect phenomena.
Then it joins the 'pod planes' on the heap of discarded CD theories.
Good of you to say you can no longer accept this 'squib' theory.
no, you can't throw it away with the pod planes.
still looks like a misfired bomb to me. it didn't go at the right time, so it had no effect on the stability. all the squibs need to fire in unison in order to blow out support.
it is too pointed to be an air blast, unless there was a continuous duct directly adjacent the perimeter. if it was overpressure in the core ducting, the air would equalise when it hit the vast volume of air on that floor, and would not be able to retain it's 'shape' as it travelled from core to the perimeter.
This is to say that of the observable photographic records, this anomaly is no longer on my list of suspect phenomena.
Then it joins the 'pod planes' on the heap of discarded CD theories.
Good of you to say you can no longer accept this 'squib' theory.
no, you can't throw it away with the pod planes.
still looks like a misfired bomb to me. it didn't go at the right time, so it had no effect on the stability. all the squibs need to fire in unison in order to blow out support.
it is too pointed to be an air blast, unless there was a continuous duct directly adjacent the perimeter. if it was overpressure in the core ducting, the air would equalise when it hit the vast volume of air on that floor, and would not be able to retain it's 'shape' as it travelled from core to the perimeter.
QUOTE (newton+Feb 20 2006, 11:31 PM)
QUOTE (yesitdid+Feb 20 2006, 11:12 PM)
QUOTE (computer fogie+Feb 20 2006, 09:53 PM)
After conidering the physical evidence (pics of ejected material exploding out a few windows of the WTC towers) and all the explanations for the evidence I've seen, I now believe the squibs were likely to have been caused by air, and not explosives. There's no sign of actual colapse in the areas of the squibs. CD wouldn't have sent matter out of only one or two windows.
This is to say that of the observable photographic records, this anomaly is no longer on my list of suspect phenomena.
Then it joins the 'pod planes' on the heap of discarded CD theories.
Good of you to say you can no longer accept this 'squib' theory.
no, you can't throw it away with the pod planes.
still looks like a misfired bomb to me. it didn't go at the right time, so it had no effect on the stability. all the squibs need to fire in unison in order to blow out support.
it is too pointed to be an air blast, unless there was a continuous duct directly adjacent the perimeter. if it was overpressure in the core ducting, the air would equalise when it hit the vast volume of air on that floor, and would not be able to retain it's 'shape' as it travelled from core to the perimeter.
Incorrect!
I can throw it away.
You on the other hand find yourself unable to.
This is to say that of the observable photographic records, this anomaly is no longer on my list of suspect phenomena.
Then it joins the 'pod planes' on the heap of discarded CD theories.
Good of you to say you can no longer accept this 'squib' theory.
no, you can't throw it away with the pod planes.
still looks like a misfired bomb to me. it didn't go at the right time, so it had no effect on the stability. all the squibs need to fire in unison in order to blow out support.
it is too pointed to be an air blast, unless there was a continuous duct directly adjacent the perimeter. if it was overpressure in the core ducting, the air would equalise when it hit the vast volume of air on that floor, and would not be able to retain it's 'shape' as it travelled from core to the perimeter.
Incorrect!
I can throw it away.
You on the other hand find yourself unable to.
QUOTE (yesitdid+Feb 20 2006, 06:12 PM)
...Then it joins the 'pod planes' on the heap of discarded CD theories.
Good of you to say you can no longer accept this 'squib' theory.
I suppose. I'm just saying that for me the squibs aren't solid enough for me, based on what I've learned so far, to use as conclusive evidence in a debate.
Who cares what I think, really. No big deal. I think, though, that if everyone could set aside their pre-judgements on 9/11, that we'd see the major problems with the official story.
Good of you to say you can no longer accept this 'squib' theory.
I suppose. I'm just saying that for me the squibs aren't solid enough for me, based on what I've learned so far, to use as conclusive evidence in a debate.
Who cares what I think, really. No big deal. I think, though, that if everyone could set aside their pre-judgements on 9/11, that we'd see the major problems with the official story.
QUOTE (newton+Feb 18 2006, 08:40 PM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 18 2006, 07:19 PM)
Being wrong about something doesn't have to be the same as being DUMB, but a fair number of posters on the CT side act like stupidity is a virtue.
Arthur
not stupidity, arthur, but innocence. as in, not bringing preconcieved notions to the table. of course, you will disagree and say that "CT's" believe everything that supports their paranoid delusions.
well, some of us would like this all to just be a scenario that actually matches the pictures. that's all.
i could give great conspiracy theory.
how about this.....
george bush and the bush nazi legacy are actually GOOD, because they are organising power structures, so that when the REAL enemy comes, (from outer space), humanity will be bonded into one lean mean fighting machine. or, maybe it's not nazis, but rather the opponents of the benevolent opus dei and jesuit illuminati.
..................perhaps stupidity is a virtue(ignorance is bliss), but i rather prefer the 'spin' that intelligence is a great burden and responsibility.
Not exactly an example of "not bringing preconcieved notions to the table", to use, "george bush and the bush nazi legacy".
Keep writing newt, you're a funny guy.
Arthur
not stupidity, arthur, but innocence. as in, not bringing preconcieved notions to the table. of course, you will disagree and say that "CT's" believe everything that supports their paranoid delusions.
well, some of us would like this all to just be a scenario that actually matches the pictures. that's all.
i could give great conspiracy theory.
how about this.....
george bush and the bush nazi legacy are actually GOOD, because they are organising power structures, so that when the REAL enemy comes, (from outer space), humanity will be bonded into one lean mean fighting machine. or, maybe it's not nazis, but rather the opponents of the benevolent opus dei and jesuit illuminati.
..................perhaps stupidity is a virtue(ignorance is bliss), but i rather prefer the 'spin' that intelligence is a great burden and responsibility.
Not exactly an example of "not bringing preconcieved notions to the table", to use, "george bush and the bush nazi legacy".
Keep writing newt, you're a funny guy.
QUOTE (yesitdid+Feb 20 2006, 11:44 PM)
QUOTE (newton+Feb 18 2006, 08:40 PM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 18 2006, 07:19 PM)
Being wrong about something doesn't have to be the same as being DUMB, but a fair number of posters on the CT side act like stupidity is a virtue.
Arthur
not stupidity, arthur, but innocence. as in, not bringing preconcieved notions to the table. of course, you will disagree and say that "CT's" believe everything that supports their paranoid delusions.
well, some of us would like this all to just be a scenario that actually matches the pictures. that's all.
i could give great conspiracy theory.
how about this.....
george bush and the bush nazi legacy are actually GOOD, because they are organising power structures, so that when the REAL enemy comes, (from outer space), humanity will be bonded into one lean mean fighting machine. or, maybe it's not nazis, but rather the opponents of the benevolent opus dei and jesuit illuminati.
..................perhaps stupidity is a virtue(ignorance is bliss), but i rather prefer the 'spin' that intelligence is a great burden and responsibility.
Not exactly an example of "not bringing preconcieved notions to the table", to use, "george bush and the bush nazi legacy".
Keep writing newt, you're a funny guy.
not bringing preconcieved notions isn't exactly the same as IGNORING HISTORY, in my opinion. bush's grandfather financed nazis. it's history, not a preconcieved notion. the bush admin's policies and actions nearly exactly parallel those of hitler, as he used the reichstag fire to overthrow democracy, set up huge secret police forces, and attack any country he liked.
of course, forgetting the past so that we may repeat it's mistakes is a hallmark of good illuminism.
the preconcieved notion i'm talking about is being cocksure that there were no explosives, despite evidence to the contrary. and ignoring or hand waving-away anomolous factors and anything that doesn't agree with the 'no bombs' theory.
you may now repeat your disinfo mantra, ...."NO EVIDENCE", despite the repeatedly mentioned evidence, ...molten metal, tower seven, sounds of bombs, etc.
i'm always willing to entertain alternative theories, when they have merit.
however, the 'debunker' has the great challenge of negating reality. i wasn't born a demo believer. i intuited it on 911, but only subsequent investigation has shown me that BY FAR, controlled demo is the most plausible scenario, both in physical and political terms.
rude 'scientists' do not convince me of anything, except their need to quell discussion by berating anyone who's 'woke up' to the reality of pyramid power, hegellian dialectics and puppetmasters.
Good of you to say you can no longer accept this 'squib' theory.
no, you can't throw it away with the pod planes.
still looks like a misfired bomb to me. it didn't go at the right time, so it had no effect on the stability. all the squibs need to fire in unison in order to blow out support.
it is too pointed to be an air blast, unless there was a continuous duct directly adjacent the perimeter. if it was overpressure in the core ducting, the air would equalise when it hit the vast volume of air on that floor, and would not be able to retain it's 'shape' as it travelled from core to the perimeter.
So,
What THIS means is the ONLY evidence for SQUIBS is the one or two that misfired?
Right
Arthur
Good of you to say you can no longer accept this 'squib' theory.
no, you can't throw it away with the pod planes.
still looks like a misfired bomb to me. it didn't go at the right time, so it had no effect on the stability. all the squibs need to fire in unison in order to blow out support.
it is too pointed to be an air blast, unless there was a continuous duct directly adjacent the perimeter. if it was overpressure in the core ducting, the air would equalise when it hit the vast volume of air on that floor, and would not be able to retain it's 'shape' as it travelled from core to the perimeter.
So,
What THIS means is the ONLY evidence for SQUIBS is the one or two that misfired?
Right
Arthur

The air being ejected is filled with debris. This is obvious. Look at it. Dust and debris is blowing out the windows from undamaged floors well below the collapse. Any air being ejected from pancaking floors above would NOT contain debris from the collapse. This is a physical impossibility.
Would anyone like to address this or would you rather pretend it doesn't exist?

The air being ejected is filled with debris. This is obvious. Look at it. Dust and debris is blowing out the windows from undamaged floors well below the collapse. Any air being ejected from pancaking floors above would NOT contain debris from the collapse. This is a physical impossibility.
Would anyone like to address this or would you rather pretend it doesn't exist?
There are any number of things which COULD cause it, the building IS collapsing after all.
You can see material falling outside the tower that is nearing the point where this is happening. MATERIAL IS FALLING WITHIN THE TOWERS AS WELL. The towers have a hollow core. There are at LEAST 11 elevator shafts running from the impact point to the floor where you see the "squib".
An elevator, or other material falling in an elevator shaft is just ONE possibility of something landing at the mechanical floor and causing material to be forcefully ejected.
But not knowing the floor, or what was on it, or what standpipes, wires, etc ran between the floors, its impossible to know what might have "snapped" or otherwise caused what we see. So the fact is we will probably NEVER know exactly what it was that caused this.
But the reason it doesn't make sense as a SQUIB is:
A ) Squibs are used to set off HIGH EXPLOSIVES.
B ) There is NO REASON to set off a SINGLE HIGH EXPLOSIVE.
C ) If you set off a LOT OF HIGH EXPLOSIVES the result would be OBVIOUS, and QUITE DIFFERENT than the measly one or two "expulsions of air/debris" we see.
D ) even if this was a MISFIRE of a squib, it does not fit the profile of a HIGH EXPLOSIVE, since they have a SUPERSONIC BLAST FRONT, and yet we can see these EXPAND OVER TIME in the STANDARD video footage. You can ONLY see a HIGH EXPLOSIVE expand in this fashion if you take the video with a HIGH FRAME RATE and then SLOW IT DOWN.
Arthur
Sagging in and of itself would not cause a significant increase in any inward pulling forces on the columns since
the mass does not increase,
the horizontal force component is based on the sine of an angle close to zero,
and the floor mass is insignificant in comparison to the mass of the tower above the storey
G
That's not correct about the sine angle. For a catenary, the inward force is actually infinite for zero sag. It decreases as the amount of sag increases. When the floors just started to sag, the inward force on the columns could have been very high.
It's a little oversimplified to apply a catenary equation to an entire floor since a floor is not the same as a wire and not totally flexible like a wire. But the principle is similar.
When the floors are rigid, there is only a downward force on the columns they are attached to. When the floors become flexible at high temperature and just start to sag, the inward force can be very large.
Inward horizontal force of a catenary:
Fh = (w/8h)(S^2 - 4h^2)
where w is the weight per unit length of the wire, S is the total length of wire, and h is the sag.
You can see how Fh goes toward infinity as h goes to zero.
Once the buckling of the columns starts, their buckling strength decreases quickly and they become unstable under the load of all the floors above.
Many perimeter columns of the towers near the fires appeared to be buckled inward before the collapse occurred. The same probably happened to the core columns.
The large value of S due to the large open floor plans (60 foot lengths) made the situation worse. For a design where the columns are distributed evenly throughout the area of each floor, the towers may not have collapsed.
Arthur
not stupidity, arthur, but innocence. as in, not bringing preconcieved notions to the table. of course, you will disagree and say that "CT's" believe everything that supports their paranoid delusions.
well, some of us would like this all to just be a scenario that actually matches the pictures. that's all.
i could give great conspiracy theory.
how about this.....
george bush and the bush nazi legacy are actually GOOD, because they are organising power structures, so that when the REAL enemy comes, (from outer space), humanity will be bonded into one lean mean fighting machine. or, maybe it's not nazis, but rather the opponents of the benevolent opus dei and jesuit illuminati.
..................perhaps stupidity is a virtue(ignorance is bliss), but i rather prefer the 'spin' that intelligence is a great burden and responsibility.
Not exactly an example of "not bringing preconcieved notions to the table", to use, "george bush and the bush nazi legacy".
Keep writing newt, you're a funny guy.
not bringing preconcieved notions isn't exactly the same as IGNORING HISTORY, in my opinion. bush's grandfather financed nazis. it's history, not a preconcieved notion. the bush admin's policies and actions nearly exactly parallel those of hitler, as he used the reichstag fire to overthrow democracy, set up huge secret police forces, and attack any country he liked.
of course, forgetting the past so that we may repeat it's mistakes is a hallmark of good illuminism.
the preconcieved notion i'm talking about is being cocksure that there were no explosives, despite evidence to the contrary. and ignoring or hand waving-away anomolous factors and anything that doesn't agree with the 'no bombs' theory.
you may now repeat your disinfo mantra, ...."NO EVIDENCE", despite the repeatedly mentioned evidence, ...molten metal, tower seven, sounds of bombs, etc.
i'm always willing to entertain alternative theories, when they have merit.
however, the 'debunker' has the great challenge of negating reality. i wasn't born a demo believer. i intuited it on 911, but only subsequent investigation has shown me that BY FAR, controlled demo is the most plausible scenario, both in physical and political terms.
rude 'scientists' do not convince me of anything, except their need to quell discussion by berating anyone who's 'woke up' to the reality of pyramid power, hegellian dialectics and puppetmasters.
QUOTE (newton+Feb 20 2006, 07:31 PM)
QUOTE (yesitdid+Feb 20 2006, 11:12 PM)
Good of you to say you can no longer accept this 'squib' theory.
no, you can't throw it away with the pod planes.
still looks like a misfired bomb to me. it didn't go at the right time, so it had no effect on the stability. all the squibs need to fire in unison in order to blow out support.
it is too pointed to be an air blast, unless there was a continuous duct directly adjacent the perimeter. if it was overpressure in the core ducting, the air would equalise when it hit the vast volume of air on that floor, and would not be able to retain it's 'shape' as it travelled from core to the perimeter.
So,
What THIS means is the ONLY evidence for SQUIBS is the one or two that misfired?
Right
Arthur
QUOTE (newton+)
'scientists' do not convince me of anything, except their need to quell discussion by berating anyone who's 'woke up' to the reality of pyramid power, hegellian dialectics and puppetmasters.
Or, in newt's case, is "One Toke Over the Line".
Hegelian dialectics
Arthur
Or, in newt's case, is "One Toke Over the Line".
Hegelian dialectics
Arthur
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 21 2006, 12:31 AM)
QUOTE (newton+Feb 20 2006, 07:31 PM)
QUOTE (yesitdid+Feb 20 2006, 11:12 PM)
Good of you to say you can no longer accept this 'squib' theory.
no, you can't throw it away with the pod planes.
still looks like a misfired bomb to me. it didn't go at the right time, so it had no effect on the stability. all the squibs need to fire in unison in order to blow out support.
it is too pointed to be an air blast, unless there was a continuous duct directly adjacent the perimeter. if it was overpressure in the core ducting, the air would equalise when it hit the vast volume of air on that floor, and would not be able to retain it's 'shape' as it travelled from core to the perimeter.
So,
What THIS means is the ONLY evidence for SQUIBS is the one or two that misfired?
Right
Arthur

The air being ejected is filled with debris. This is obvious. Look at it. Dust and debris is blowing out the windows from undamaged floors well below the collapse. Any air being ejected from pancaking floors above would NOT contain debris from the collapse. This is a physical impossibility.
Would anyone like to address this or would you rather pretend it doesn't exist?
QUOTE (cosmo+Feb 20 2006, 09:28 PM)

The air being ejected is filled with debris. This is obvious. Look at it. Dust and debris is blowing out the windows from undamaged floors well below the collapse. Any air being ejected from pancaking floors above would NOT contain debris from the collapse. This is a physical impossibility.
Would anyone like to address this or would you rather pretend it doesn't exist?
There are any number of things which COULD cause it, the building IS collapsing after all.
You can see material falling outside the tower that is nearing the point where this is happening. MATERIAL IS FALLING WITHIN THE TOWERS AS WELL. The towers have a hollow core. There are at LEAST 11 elevator shafts running from the impact point to the floor where you see the "squib".
An elevator, or other material falling in an elevator shaft is just ONE possibility of something landing at the mechanical floor and causing material to be forcefully ejected.
But not knowing the floor, or what was on it, or what standpipes, wires, etc ran between the floors, its impossible to know what might have "snapped" or otherwise caused what we see. So the fact is we will probably NEVER know exactly what it was that caused this.
But the reason it doesn't make sense as a SQUIB is:
A ) Squibs are used to set off HIGH EXPLOSIVES.
B ) There is NO REASON to set off a SINGLE HIGH EXPLOSIVE.
C ) If you set off a LOT OF HIGH EXPLOSIVES the result would be OBVIOUS, and QUITE DIFFERENT than the measly one or two "expulsions of air/debris" we see.
D ) even if this was a MISFIRE of a squib, it does not fit the profile of a HIGH EXPLOSIVE, since they have a SUPERSONIC BLAST FRONT, and yet we can see these EXPAND OVER TIME in the STANDARD video footage. You can ONLY see a HIGH EXPLOSIVE expand in this fashion if you take the video with a HIGH FRAME RATE and then SLOW IT DOWN.
Arthur
Has anybody seen "911 Guilt" by Don Paul and Jim Hoffman?
>> http://www.wtc7.net/store/videos/proof/index.html
Anything new in there?* If so, please PM me, as I don't follow this thread as closely nowadays.
* Hey, maybe Hoffman saw the light and now seriously discusses the amazing bellows hypothesis!
>> http://www.wtc7.net/store/videos/proof/index.html
Anything new in there?* If so, please PM me, as I don't follow this thread as closely nowadays.
* Hey, maybe Hoffman saw the light and now seriously discusses the amazing bellows hypothesis!
QUOTE (brian+)
It can be sometimes amusing but mostly tiresome watching these clowns deny that which anyone that has taken trouble to aquaint themselves with the construction of the towers knows is quite simply impossible. Such buildings could not have collapsed in the manner and at the speed they did, literally impossible absent extra energy. That is obvious without all the evidence showing demolition.
So I take it you assume that the UK engineers (Lamont & Lane) at Arup are on the take as well?
Since they presumably are "aquainted with the construction of the towers", yet in their discussion of the NIST report never once mention that "they could not have collapsed in the manner and speed they did" or that the collapse would have been "impossible, absent extra energy".
What is OBVIOUS to you is apparently not OBVIOUS to engineers FAMILIAR with the construction of large buildings.
Arthur
So I take it you assume that the UK engineers (Lamont & Lane) at Arup are on the take as well?
Since they presumably are "aquainted with the construction of the towers", yet in their discussion of the NIST report never once mention that "they could not have collapsed in the manner and speed they did" or that the collapse would have been "impossible, absent extra energy".
What is OBVIOUS to you is apparently not OBVIOUS to engineers FAMILIAR with the construction of large buildings.
Arthur
QUOTE (gordon+Feb 20 2006, 03:22 AM)
Sagging in and of itself would not cause a significant increase in any inward pulling forces on the columns since
the mass does not increase,
the horizontal force component is based on the sine of an angle close to zero,
and the floor mass is insignificant in comparison to the mass of the tower above the storey
G
That's not correct about the sine angle. For a catenary, the inward force is actually infinite for zero sag. It decreases as the amount of sag increases. When the floors just started to sag, the inward force on the columns could have been very high.
It's a little oversimplified to apply a catenary equation to an entire floor since a floor is not the same as a wire and not totally flexible like a wire. But the principle is similar.
When the floors are rigid, there is only a downward force on the columns they are attached to. When the floors become flexible at high temperature and just start to sag, the inward force can be very large.
Inward horizontal force of a catenary:
Fh = (w/8h)(S^2 - 4h^2)
where w is the weight per unit length of the wire, S is the total length of wire, and h is the sag.
You can see how Fh goes toward infinity as h goes to zero.
Once the buckling of the columns starts, their buckling strength decreases quickly and they become unstable under the load of all the floors above.
Many perimeter columns of the towers near the fires appeared to be buckled inward before the collapse occurred. The same probably happened to the core columns.
The large value of S due to the large open floor plans (60 foot lengths) made the situation worse. For a design where the columns are distributed evenly throughout the area of each floor, the towers may not have collapsed.
QUOTE (newton+)
bush's grandfather financed nazis.
Bush's Grandfather must have been a real A$$hole, since here is his son, Bush's father, Lt George Bush, prior to being SHOT DOWN while dive bombing a Japanese carrier. Note: Japan and Germany were on the same side in the war.

Arthur
Bush's Grandfather must have been a real A$$hole, since here is his son, Bush's father, Lt George Bush, prior to being SHOT DOWN while dive bombing a Japanese carrier. Note: Japan and Germany were on the same side in the war.

Arthur
Speculation Central
Thermite has an indefinite shelf life.
WTC workers, spaying on fire insulation, could have been (unknowingly?) applying a look-a-like thermite coating.
Could thermite impregnated drywall, have been installed against CRITICAL sections of the core's super structure?
If aerosol nozzles were installed in the ceilings of the elevators shafts, could the dispensation of a thermo-baric mist, then have been ignited when it reached the bottom?
Thermo-baric heat blast, could have been used to ignite the Thermite.
"Official" jet fuel drip theory, a pre-emptive distraction from the actual application of fuel-air blasts?
Thermite has an indefinite shelf life.
WTC workers, spaying on fire insulation, could have been (unknowingly?) applying a look-a-like thermite coating.
Could thermite impregnated drywall, have been installed against CRITICAL sections of the core's super structure?
If aerosol nozzles were installed in the ceilings of the elevators shafts, could the dispensation of a thermo-baric mist, then have been ignited when it reached the bottom?
Thermo-baric heat blast, could have been used to ignite the Thermite.
"Official" jet fuel drip theory, a pre-emptive distraction from the actual application of fuel-air blasts?
QUOTE (zoktoberfest+Feb 21 2006, 01:29 AM)
Speculation Central
Thermite has an indefinite shelf life.
WTC workers, spaying on fire insulation, could have been (unknowingly?) applying a look-a-like thermite coating.
In my opinion, not likely.
The WEIGHT of Thermite is VERY different from the relatively low density Blazeshield. Its also hard to imagine making it sticky enough to "hold" onto the bottom of horizontal structures and yet still be able to spray the stuff.
And its HIGHLY unlikely you could avoid the "sparkle" that would come from the powdered aluminum. The mix would have looked VERY different than the fiberous look of the real stuff.
Arthur
Thermite has an indefinite shelf life.
WTC workers, spaying on fire insulation, could have been (unknowingly?) applying a look-a-like thermite coating.
In my opinion, not likely.
The WEIGHT of Thermite is VERY different from the relatively low density Blazeshield. Its also hard to imagine making it sticky enough to "hold" onto the bottom of horizontal structures and yet still be able to spray the stuff.
And its HIGHLY unlikely you could avoid the "sparkle" that would come from the powdered aluminum. The mix would have looked VERY different than the fiberous look of the real stuff.
Arthur
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 20 2006, 09:11 PM)
QUOTE (newton+)
bush's grandfather financed nazis.
Bush's Grandfather must have been a real A$$hole, since here is his son, Bush's father, Lt George Bush, prior to being SHOT DOWN while dive bombing a Japanese carrier. Note: Japan and Germany were on the same side in the war.

Arthur
You will go to any extent to distort the truth. Even The Guardian admits it is true:
How Bush's grandfather helped Hitler's rise to power
Rumours of a link between the US first family and the Nazi war machine have circulated for decades. Now the Guardian can reveal how repercussions of events that culminated in action under the Trading with the Enemy Act are still being felt by today's president
Ben Aris in Berlin and Duncan Campbell in Washington
Saturday September 25, 2004
The Guardian
George Bush's grandfather, the late US senator Prescott Bush, was a director and shareholder of companies that profited from their involvement with the financial backers of Nazi Germany.
The Guardian has obtained confirmation from newly discovered files in the US National Archives that a firm of which Prescott Bush was a director was involved with the financial architects of Nazism.
His business dealings, which continued until his company's assets were seized in 1942 under the Trading with the Enemy Act, has led more than 60 years later to a civil action for damages being brought in Germany against the Bush family by two former slave labourers at Auschwitz and to a hum of pre-election controversy.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1312540,00.html
Sagging in and of itself would not cause a significant increase in any inward pulling forces on the columns since
the mass does not increase,
the horizontal force component is based on the sine of an angle close to zero,
and the floor mass is insignificant in comparison to the mass of the tower above the storey
G
That's not correct about the sine angle. For a catenary, the inward force is actually infinite for zero sag. It decreases as the amount of sag increases. When the floors just started to sag, the inward force on the columns could have been very high.
It's a little oversimplified to apply a catenary equation to an entire floor since a floor is not the same as a wire and not totally flexible like a wire. But the principle is similar.
When the floors are rigid, there is only a downward force on the columns they are attached to. When the floors become flexible at high temperature and just start to sag, the inward force can be very large.
Inward horizontal force of a catenary:
Fh = (w/8h)(S^2 - 4h^2)
where w is the weight per unit length of the wire, S is the total length of wire, and h is the sag.
You can see how Fh goes toward infinity as h goes to zero.
Once the buckling of the columns starts, their buckling strength decreases quickly and they become unstable under the load of all the floors above.
Many perimeter columns of the towers near the fires appeared to be buckled inward before the collapse occurred. The same probably happened to the core columns.
The large value of S due to the large open floor plans (60 foot lengths) made the situation worse. For a design where the columns are distributed evenly throughout the area of each floor, the towers may not have collapsed.
I wonder who Guest is? Who is the only person to mistake the characteristics of a wire or rope for a floor truss (Schneibster).
Bush's Grandfather must have been a real A$$hole, since here is his son, Bush's father, Lt George Bush, prior to being SHOT DOWN while dive bombing a Japanese carrier. Note: Japan and Germany were on the same side in the war.

Arthur
You will go to any extent to distort the truth. Even The Guardian admits it is true:
How Bush's grandfather helped Hitler's rise to power
Rumours of a link between the US first family and the Nazi war machine have circulated for decades. Now the Guardian can reveal how repercussions of events that culminated in action under the Trading with the Enemy Act are still being felt by today's president
Ben Aris in Berlin and Duncan Campbell in Washington
Saturday September 25, 2004
The Guardian
George Bush's grandfather, the late US senator Prescott Bush, was a director and shareholder of companies that profited from their involvement with the financial backers of Nazi Germany.
The Guardian has obtained confirmation from newly discovered files in the US National Archives that a firm of which Prescott Bush was a director was involved with the financial architects of Nazism.
His business dealings, which continued until his company's assets were seized in 1942 under the Trading with the Enemy Act, has led more than 60 years later to a civil action for damages being brought in Germany against the Bush family by two former slave labourers at Auschwitz and to a hum of pre-election controversy.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1312540,00.html
QUOTE (zoktoberfest+Feb 21 2006, 05:29 AM)
Speculation Central
Thermite has an indefinite shelf life.
WTC workers, spaying on fire insulation, could have been (unknowingly?) applying a look-a-like thermite coating.
Could thermite impregnated drywall, have been installed against CRITICAL sections of the core's super structure?
If aerosol nozzles were installed in the ceilings of the elevators shafts, could the dispensation of a thermo-baric mist, then have been ignited when it reached the bottom?
Thermo-baric heat blast, could have been used to ignite the Thermite.
"Official" jet fuel drip theory, a pre-emptive distraction from the actual application of fuel-air blasts?
Hi Zoktober!
As Foxx has recently provided a perfect description of what would have happened in the jet-fuel-in-air scenario down the shafts (see my previous two posts in reply to Computer Fogie), why go looking for exotic scenarios when all the 'elements' are there to satisfy OCCAM'S RAZOR?
Foxx described a 'device' which would initially explode and spread a lot of UNBURNT fuel into the surroundings to mix with air and THEN have that ignite as a consequence of the expanding explosion flame/shock front. JUST as happened on 9/11, where THERE the 'device' was a crashing/exploding plane full of fuel, much of which was dispersed and forced into the shaft to mix with air and then be ignited/exploded by the following blast front from the initial explosion on the impact floors.
No need to go looking. Foxx has just identified the explosive 'device' and 'system' that occurred NATURALLY by accident in the towers. And if you want proof that such 'unusual' things DO happen, just look up "OKLO natural reactors" to see that 'complicated' natural/accidental 'coincidences' are NOT IMPOSSIBLE by any means.
Cheers.
RC.
.
Thermite has an indefinite shelf life.
WTC workers, spaying on fire insulation, could have been (unknowingly?) applying a look-a-like thermite coating.
Could thermite impregnated drywall, have been installed against CRITICAL sections of the core's super structure?
If aerosol nozzles were installed in the ceilings of the elevators shafts, could the dispensation of a thermo-baric mist, then have been ignited when it reached the bottom?
Thermo-baric heat blast, could have been used to ignite the Thermite.
"Official" jet fuel drip theory, a pre-emptive distraction from the actual application of fuel-air blasts?
Hi Zoktober!
As Foxx has recently provided a perfect description of what would have happened in the jet-fuel-in-air scenario down the shafts (see my previous two posts in reply to Computer Fogie), why go looking for exotic scenarios when all the 'elements' are there to satisfy OCCAM'S RAZOR?
Foxx described a 'device' which would initially explode and spread a lot of UNBURNT fuel into the surroundings to mix with air and THEN have that ignite as a consequence of the expanding explosion flame/shock front. JUST as happened on 9/11, where THERE the 'device' was a crashing/exploding plane full of fuel, much of which was dispersed and forced into the shaft to mix with air and then be ignited/exploded by the following blast front from the initial explosion on the impact floors.
No need to go looking. Foxx has just identified the explosive 'device' and 'system' that occurred NATURALLY by accident in the towers. And if you want proof that such 'unusual' things DO happen, just look up "OKLO natural reactors" to see that 'complicated' natural/accidental 'coincidences' are NOT IMPOSSIBLE by any means.
Cheers.
RC.
.
QUOTE (Guest+Feb 20 2006, 07:48 PM)
QUOTE (gordon+Feb 20 2006, 03:22 AM)
Sagging in and of itself would not cause a significant increase in any inward pulling forces on the columns since
the mass does not increase,
the horizontal force component is based on the sine of an angle close to zero,
and the floor mass is insignificant in comparison to the mass of the tower above the storey
G
That's not correct about the sine angle. For a catenary, the inward force is actually infinite for zero sag. It decreases as the amount of sag increases. When the floors just started to sag, the inward force on the columns could have been very high.
It's a little oversimplified to apply a catenary equation to an entire floor since a floor is not the same as a wire and not totally flexible like a wire. But the principle is similar.
When the floors are rigid, there is only a downward force on the columns they are attached to. When the floors become flexible at high temperature and just start to sag, the inward force can be very large.
Inward horizontal force of a catenary:
Fh = (w/8h)(S^2 - 4h^2)
where w is the weight per unit length of the wire, S is the total length of wire, and h is the sag.
You can see how Fh goes toward infinity as h goes to zero.
Once the buckling of the columns starts, their buckling strength decreases quickly and they become unstable under the load of all the floors above.
Many perimeter columns of the towers near the fires appeared to be buckled inward before the collapse occurred. The same probably happened to the core columns.
The large value of S due to the large open floor plans (60 foot lengths) made the situation worse. For a design where the columns are distributed evenly throughout the area of each floor, the towers may not have collapsed.
I wonder who Guest is? Who is the only person to mistake the characteristics of a wire or rope for a floor truss (Schneibster).
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 21 2006, 12:47 AM)
QUOTE (newton+)
'scientists' do not convince me of anything, except their need to quell discussion by berating anyone who's 'woke up' to the reality of pyramid power, hegellian dialectics and puppetmasters.
Or, in newt's case, is "One Toke Over the Line".
Hegelian dialectics
Arthur
hey, if i don't write christ with a capithole, i ain't giving it to hegel, that bastage.
potaito, potawto
the leader is good. long live the leader.
how's my driving?
i think we're parked.
toke.

irie
Another quote from he who needs a reality check.
The above described METC device which utilizes ...
Another quote from he who needs a reality check.
The above described METC device which utilizes ...
a liquid compound of aqueous ammonium nitrate. The core shaft containing the explosive is itself made up of a compressed and hardened compound of aluminum silicate and N2O4, which starts as a slurry prior to application of a high-pressure baking process. Except for the explosive charge protected from external forces within, these items are all safe from accidental detonation as relatively safe-to-handle materials.
...is nothing similar to the theoretical jet-fuel air explosion spoken of by 'quacks'.
Read again how the device actually works...
http://www.totse.com/en/bad_ideas/ka_fucking_boom/index.html
Be aware that you WILL come to the attention of the authorities by visiting the above site. (If you wish to not be caught visiting this site... I copied the text from The CIA's METC Explosives in my post here...)
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...indpost&p=65683
Otherwise the whole article on METC can be found here...
http://www.totse.com/en/bad_ideas/ka_fucki...om/ciametc.html
There is no way to make a similar explosive device from kerosene.
Good of you to say you can no longer accept this 'squib' theory.
no, you can't throw it away with the pod planes.
still looks like a misfired bomb to me. it didn't go at the right time, so it had no effect on the stability. all the squibs need to fire in unison in order to blow out support.
it is too pointed to be an air blast, unless there was a continuous duct directly adjacent the perimeter. if it was overpressure in the core ducting, the air would equalise when it hit the vast volume of air on that floor, and would not be able to retain it's 'shape' as it travelled from core to the perimeter.
So,
What THIS means is the ONLY evidence for SQUIBS is the one or two that misfired?
Right
Arthur

The air being ejected is filled with debris. This is obvious. Look at it. Dust and debris is blowing out the windows from undamaged floors well below the collapse. Any air being ejected from pancaking floors above would NOT contain debris from the collapse. This is a physical impossibility.
Would anyone like to address this or would you rather pretend it doesn't exist?
Now find one that happens before the collapse... I've been asking for this for some time and none of you "squibies" can produce one.
We have addressed this over and over again. This could just simply be positive pressure created by the compressing floor space. Air and debris are forced through elevator shafts, stairwells, conduits, any place it can as it follows the path of least resistance. It reaches the sky lobby or mechanical levels and is forced out the weakest window or ventilation system.
In fact, if you look at the video evidence you'll see the dust cloud (What you think are Squibs) growing stronger as the building collapse gets closer to it. A "Squib" would have not grown over time. It would have exploded outward then tapered off as the building collapsed as in the CD videos of other CD's.
Or, in newt's case, is "One Toke Over the Line".
Hegelian dialectics
Arthur
hey, if i don't write christ with a capithole, i ain't giving it to hegel, that bastage.
potaito, potawto
the leader is good. long live the leader.
how's my driving?
i think we're parked.
toke.
irie
All I know is anyone who uses Hegelian dialectics and Pyramid Power in the same sentence ain't ever gonna get laid. Or if they do, its because they go home at 2 with a 10, but wake up at 10 with a 2.
Arthur
Arthur
The coming (Nuclear) War Against Iran
The above is just a small snippet from a much more in-depth article...
WWIII or Bust: Implications of a US Attack on Iran
reported as I found it in the Minjok-Tongshin English Version...(a pro-north Korean community newspaper published in LA?)
http://www.minjok.com/english/news.php3?code=1496
Other sources...
http://www.heatherwokusch.com/
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?con...&articleId=2002
{ Feb 19, 2006 }
QUOTE
The US public sees the issue of Iran as backburner, and has little eagerness for an attack on the country at this time. A USA Today/CNN Gallup Poll from early February 2006 found that a full 86% of respondents favored either taking no action or using economic/diplomatic efforts towards Iran for now. Significantly, 69% said they were concerned "that the U.S. will be too quick to use military force in an attempt to prevent Iran from developing nuclear weapons."
And that begs the question: how can the US public be convinced to enter a potentially ugly and protracted war in Iran?
A domestic terrorist attack would do the trick. Just consider how long Congress went back and forth over reauthorizing Bush's Patriot Act, but how quickly opposing senators capitulated following last week's nerve-agent scare in a Senate building. The scare turned out to be a false alarm, but the Patriot Act got the support it needed.
Now consider the fact that former CIA Officer Philip Giraldi has said the Pentagon's plans to attack Iran were drawn up "to be employed in response to another 9/11-type terrorist attack on the United States."
{ http://www.amconmag.com/2005_08_01/article3.html }
Writing in The American Conservative in August 2005, Giraldi added, "As in the case of Iraq, the response is not conditional on Iran actually being involved in the act of terrorism directed against the United States."
Chew on that one a minute. The Pentagon's plan should be used in response to a terrorist attack on the US, yet is not contingent upon Iran actually having been responsible. How outlandish is this scenario: another 9/11 hits the US, the administration says it has secret information implicating Iran, the US population demands retribution and bombs start dropping on Tehran.
And that begs the question: how can the US public be convinced to enter a potentially ugly and protracted war in Iran?
A domestic terrorist attack would do the trick. Just consider how long Congress went back and forth over reauthorizing Bush's Patriot Act, but how quickly opposing senators capitulated following last week's nerve-agent scare in a Senate building. The scare turned out to be a false alarm, but the Patriot Act got the support it needed.
Now consider the fact that former CIA Officer Philip Giraldi has said the Pentagon's plans to attack Iran were drawn up "to be employed in response to another 9/11-type terrorist attack on the United States."
{ http://www.amconmag.com/2005_08_01/article3.html }
Writing in The American Conservative in August 2005, Giraldi added, "As in the case of Iraq, the response is not conditional on Iran actually being involved in the act of terrorism directed against the United States."
Chew on that one a minute. The Pentagon's plan should be used in response to a terrorist attack on the US, yet is not contingent upon Iran actually having been responsible. How outlandish is this scenario: another 9/11 hits the US, the administration says it has secret information implicating Iran, the US population demands retribution and bombs start dropping on Tehran.
The above is just a small snippet from a much more in-depth article...
WWIII or Bust: Implications of a US Attack on Iran
reported as I found it in the Minjok-Tongshin English Version...(a pro-north Korean community newspaper published in LA?)
http://www.minjok.com/english/news.php3?code=1496
Other sources...
http://www.heatherwokusch.com/
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?con...&articleId=2002
{ Feb 19, 2006 }
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://spirit...sitefights.com/
Hmmm... "the sitefights" ? interesting title for a website.
Looks like the 'Schneiby crew' is using a new way to spam the thread. The domain 'spiritbooks' is registered as...
Registrant [23658]:
Moniker Privacy Services
20 SW 27 Ave
Suite 201
Pompano Beach
FL
33069
US
Probably a 'front'.
Connection to viagra is obvious, anyone else besides 'Schneiby' use viagra here?
Hmmm... "the sitefights" ? interesting title for a website.
Looks like the 'Schneiby crew' is using a new way to spam the thread. The domain 'spiritbooks' is registered as...
Registrant [23658]:
Moniker Privacy Services
20 SW 27 Ave
Suite 201
Pompano Beach
FL
33069
US
Probably a 'front'.
Connection to viagra is obvious, anyone else besides 'Schneiby' use viagra here?
QUOTE
No need to go looking. Foxx has just identified the explosive 'device' and 'system' that occurred NATURALLY by accident in the towers.
Another quote from he who needs a reality check.
The above described METC device which utilizes ...
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| No need to go looking. Foxx has just identified the explosive 'device' and 'system' that occurred NATURALLY by accident in the towers. |
Another quote from he who needs a reality check.
The above described METC device which utilizes ...
a liquid compound of aqueous ammonium nitrate. The core shaft containing the explosive is itself made up of a compressed and hardened compound of aluminum silicate and N2O4, which starts as a slurry prior to application of a high-pressure baking process. Except for the explosive charge protected from external forces within, these items are all safe from accidental detonation as relatively safe-to-handle materials.
...is nothing similar to the theoretical jet-fuel air explosion spoken of by 'quacks'.
Read again how the device actually works...
http://www.totse.com/en/bad_ideas/ka_fucking_boom/index.html
Be aware that you WILL come to the attention of the authorities by visiting the above site. (If you wish to not be caught visiting this site... I copied the text from The CIA's METC Explosives in my post here...)
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...indpost&p=65683
Otherwise the whole article on METC can be found here...
http://www.totse.com/en/bad_ideas/ka_fucki...om/ciametc.html
There is no way to make a similar explosive device from kerosene.
MAXIM magazine?
Now that's serious journalism.
How come no mention of the shape shifting Reptilian Overlords? That conspiracy theory just a little TOO far out for you?
How many of you CT'ers are SHILLS for the useless rich kid (Jimmy Walter of reopen911.org) who is, according to the article, "burning his inheritance on ideas that most people think are sheer lunacy"
Arthur
Now that's serious journalism.
How come no mention of the shape shifting Reptilian Overlords? That conspiracy theory just a little TOO far out for you?
How many of you CT'ers are SHILLS for the useless rich kid (Jimmy Walter of reopen911.org) who is, according to the article, "burning his inheritance on ideas that most people think are sheer lunacy"
Arthur
QUOTE (cosmo+Feb 21 2006, 01:28 AM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 21 2006, 12:31 AM)
QUOTE (newton+Feb 20 2006, 07:31 PM)
QUOTE (yesitdid+Feb 20 2006, 11:12 PM)
Good of you to say you can no longer accept this 'squib' theory.
no, you can't throw it away with the pod planes.
still looks like a misfired bomb to me. it didn't go at the right time, so it had no effect on the stability. all the squibs need to fire in unison in order to blow out support.
it is too pointed to be an air blast, unless there was a continuous duct directly adjacent the perimeter. if it was overpressure in the core ducting, the air would equalise when it hit the vast volume of air on that floor, and would not be able to retain it's 'shape' as it travelled from core to the perimeter.
So,
What THIS means is the ONLY evidence for SQUIBS is the one or two that misfired?
Right
Arthur

The air being ejected is filled with debris. This is obvious. Look at it. Dust and debris is blowing out the windows from undamaged floors well below the collapse. Any air being ejected from pancaking floors above would NOT contain debris from the collapse. This is a physical impossibility.
Would anyone like to address this or would you rather pretend it doesn't exist?
Now find one that happens before the collapse... I've been asking for this for some time and none of you "squibies" can produce one.
We have addressed this over and over again. This could just simply be positive pressure created by the compressing floor space. Air and debris are forced through elevator shafts, stairwells, conduits, any place it can as it follows the path of least resistance. It reaches the sky lobby or mechanical levels and is forced out the weakest window or ventilation system.
In fact, if you look at the video evidence you'll see the dust cloud (What you think are Squibs) growing stronger as the building collapse gets closer to it. A "Squib" would have not grown over time. It would have exploded outward then tapered off as the building collapsed as in the CD videos of other CD's.
QUOTE (zoktoberfest+Feb 21 2006, 05:29 AM)
Speculation Central
Thermite has an indefinite shelf life.
WTC workers, spaying on fire insulation, could have been (unknowingly?) applying a look-a-like thermite coating.
Could thermite impregnated drywall, have been installed against CRITICAL sections of the core's super structure?
If aerosol nozzles were installed in the ceilings of the elevators shafts, could the dispensation of a thermo-baric mist, then have been ignited when it reached the bottom?
Thermo-baric heat blast, could have been used to ignite the Thermite.
"Official" jet fuel drip theory, a pre-emptive distraction from the actual application of fuel-air blasts?
Why didn't they just bring the building down like that and skip the planes.
The "MIB construction crew theory" is equal to the "Space Aliens teleported Lasers into the core theory" Both have ZERO evidence to back them up.
Thermite has an indefinite shelf life.
WTC workers, spaying on fire insulation, could have been (unknowingly?) applying a look-a-like thermite coating.
Could thermite impregnated drywall, have been installed against CRITICAL sections of the core's super structure?
If aerosol nozzles were installed in the ceilings of the elevators shafts, could the dispensation of a thermo-baric mist, then have been ignited when it reached the bottom?
Thermo-baric heat blast, could have been used to ignite the Thermite.
"Official" jet fuel drip theory, a pre-emptive distraction from the actual application of fuel-air blasts?
Why didn't they just bring the building down like that and skip the planes.
The "MIB construction crew theory" is equal to the "Space Aliens teleported Lasers into the core theory" Both have ZERO evidence to back them up.
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 21 2006, 02:16 PM)
MAXIM magazine?
Now that's serious journalism.
How come no mention of the shape shifting Reptilian Overlords? That conspiracy theory just a little TOO far out for you?
How many of you CT'ers are SHILLS for the useless rich kid (Jimmy Walter of reopen911.org) who is, according to the article, "burning his inheritance on ideas that most people think are sheer lunacy"
Arthur
frater plecticus obviously didn't read the article. It mocks the whole 911 conspiracy movement. Heh!
There in lies a metaphor for the whole 9/11 conspiracy movement. They're just to lazy to double check anything and jump to conclusions.
Now that's serious journalism.
How come no mention of the shape shifting Reptilian Overlords? That conspiracy theory just a little TOO far out for you?
How many of you CT'ers are SHILLS for the useless rich kid (Jimmy Walter of reopen911.org) who is, according to the article, "burning his inheritance on ideas that most people think are sheer lunacy"
Arthur
frater plecticus obviously didn't read the article. It mocks the whole 911 conspiracy movement. Heh!
There in lies a metaphor for the whole 9/11 conspiracy movement. They're just to lazy to double check anything and jump to conclusions.
QUOTE (Common Sense+Feb 20 2006, 07:22 PM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 20 2006, 06:41 PM)
What !!!? You didn't like my alternative thermobaric bomb theory?
No, because it's only a fantasy without a shred of evidence to back it up. You have no scientific theory that uses evidence and is falsifiable.
We SAW the plane
We SAW the fireball
Eye Witnesses said the smell of jet fuel was heavy in the air.
No bomb was seen
No bomb parts were recovered
Hence one has evidence and the other doesn't. That's why I don't like it.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1535000/vide...rstcrash_vi.ram
http://www.cnn.com/video/us/2001/09/12/fir...hits.gp.med.ram
Did someone say something about a plane?
No, because it's only a fantasy without a shred of evidence to back it up. You have no scientific theory that uses evidence and is falsifiable.
We SAW the plane
We SAW the fireball
Eye Witnesses said the smell of jet fuel was heavy in the air.
No bomb was seen
No bomb parts were recovered
Hence one has evidence and the other doesn't. That's why I don't like it.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1535000/vide...rstcrash_vi.ram
http://www.cnn.com/video/us/2001/09/12/fir...hits.gp.med.ram
Did someone say something about a plane?
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 21 2006, 04:03 AM)
[The above described METC device which utilizes ...
...
Be aware that you WILL come to the attention of the authorities by visiting the above site.
The day you COMPRESS and HARDEN a slurry of Aluminum Silicate and N204 by BAKING it is the day I come over to the "dark side".
The MOST ridiculous thing is you think this METC bomb actually exists.
The ONLY way you will come to the attention of the "AUTHORITIES" is if you actually ATTEMPT to Compress and Bake some N204, in which case they will have to come to your house to either pick up the pieces or put out the fire.
Arthur
QUOTE
a liquid compound of aqueous ammonium nitrate. The core shaft containing the explosive is itself made up of a compressed and hardened compound of aluminum silicate and N2O4, which starts as a slurry prior to application of a high-pressure baking process. Except for the explosive charge protected from external forces within, these items are all safe from accidental detonation as relatively safe-to-handle materials.
...
Be aware that you WILL come to the attention of the authorities by visiting the above site.
The day you COMPRESS and HARDEN a slurry of Aluminum Silicate and N204 by BAKING it is the day I come over to the "dark side".
The MOST ridiculous thing is you think this METC bomb actually exists.
The ONLY way you will come to the attention of the "AUTHORITIES" is if you actually ATTEMPT to Compress and Bake some N204, in which case they will have to come to your house to either pick up the pieces or put out the fire.
Arthur
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 21 2006, 03:33 PM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 21 2006, 04:03 AM)
[The above described METC device which utilizes ...
...
Be aware that you WILL come to the attention of the authorities by visiting the above site.
The day you COMPRESS and HARDEN a slurry of Aluminum Silicate and N204 by BAKING it is the day I come over to the "dark side".
The MOST ridiculous thing is you think this METC bomb actually exists.
The ONLY way you will come to the attention of the "AUTHORITIES" is if you actually ATTEMPT to Compress and Bake some N202, in which case they will have to come to your house to either pick up the pieces or put out the fire.
Arthur
Interesting, I did a google search for 'METC bomb' and the first site which comes up is proparanoid.net. Heh!
Does anyone have a reliable source for this 'METC bomb' or is this just more CT nonsense.
QUOTE
a liquid compound of aqueous ammonium nitrate. The core shaft containing the explosive is itself made up of a compressed and hardened compound of aluminum silicate and N2O4, which starts as a slurry prior to application of a high-pressure baking process. Except for the explosive charge protected from external forces within, these items are all safe from accidental detonation as relatively safe-to-handle materials.
...
Be aware that you WILL come to the attention of the authorities by visiting the above site.
The day you COMPRESS and HARDEN a slurry of Aluminum Silicate and N204 by BAKING it is the day I come over to the "dark side".
The MOST ridiculous thing is you think this METC bomb actually exists.
The ONLY way you will come to the attention of the "AUTHORITIES" is if you actually ATTEMPT to Compress and Bake some N202, in which case they will have to come to your house to either pick up the pieces or put out the fire.
Arthur
Interesting, I did a google search for 'METC bomb' and the first site which comes up is proparanoid.net. Heh!
Does anyone have a reliable source for this 'METC bomb' or is this just more CT nonsense.
Well the one Foxx links to is nonsense.
Hardening N2O4 by compressing and baking it is equivilent to doing the same to H2O
Aluminum Silicate is really a mineral comprised of Al2O3 and SiO2, often written as Al2SiO5
Both the Aluminum and the Silicone are already oxidized, so they won't react AT ALL with the N2O4 even though N2O4 is a VERY strong oxidizer.
Mixing it with a slurry of Ammonimum Nitrate, NH4NO3 won't help as all we have here is ANOTHER oxidizer.
There is no FRIGGIN FUEL in this BOMB!
The whole POINT of a FUEL AIR explosive is to disperse the FUEL and use the AMBIENT O2.
This bomb is BACKWARDS.
From a CHEMICAL point of view it makes no sense at all.
But hey, its a conspiracy theory, you didn't expect it to make sense did you?
Arthur
Hardening N2O4 by compressing and baking it is equivilent to doing the same to H2O
Aluminum Silicate is really a mineral comprised of Al2O3 and SiO2, often written as Al2SiO5
Both the Aluminum and the Silicone are already oxidized, so they won't react AT ALL with the N2O4 even though N2O4 is a VERY strong oxidizer.
Mixing it with a slurry of Ammonimum Nitrate, NH4NO3 won't help as all we have here is ANOTHER oxidizer.
There is no FRIGGIN FUEL in this BOMB!
The whole POINT of a FUEL AIR explosive is to disperse the FUEL and use the AMBIENT O2.
This bomb is BACKWARDS.
From a CHEMICAL point of view it makes no sense at all.
But hey, its a conspiracy theory, you didn't expect it to make sense did you?
Arthur
You know they're in trouble when they have to dream up a bomb to support a dreamed up conspiracy.
Interesting article:
http://www.asse.org/groundzero1.htm
Some interesting quotes:
Makes finding a passport not that unusual?
Support for the Bellows Theory?
Support for the Bellows Theory?
Heavy Equipment Operations
The tremendous amount of heavy equipment used at Ground Zero created many opportunities for serious accidents (Photo 10). More than 30 crawler cranes (up to 1,000 ton in capacity), several dozen excavators, scores of backhoes and dozers, hundreds of trucks and many other types of equipment moved about the site at a hurried pace 24/7.
Limited access to WTC site?
Things KNOWN to be in the debris pile:
Things KNOWN to be in the debris pile:
More Challenges
Soon after our arrival at Ground Zero, the SH&E team received a briefing from Port Authority SH&E personnel regarding hazardous materials and commodities stored in (and under) some WTC buildings. ... The most-serious concerns included:
•72,000 gallons of diesel fuel were stored in a tank (on basement level 7) for the WTC complex backup generator/power systems. Final status: The tank was eventually located and inspected. Although slightly damaged, no leaks were found. The fuel was removed.
•1,000 gallons of gasoline, contained in individual five-gallon cans, were located throughout many levels of each of the collapsed towers. Final status: No gasoline cans were ever found; presumed destroyed in the collapse and ensuing fires.
•3,600 pounds of lead acid batteries, used for backup power, were located on various floors of the collapsed towers. Final status: No batteries were ever found; presumed destroyed.
•Three underground floors had been used as a parking garage with a total capacity of 2,000 cars. Assuming (conservatively) the garage to be half-full, with the cars’ fuel tanks being anywhere from near empty to full, the explosive potential was extraordinary. With the stability of the debris pile unknown, subsurface fires burning continuously, welding and other hot work being performed on top of the debris, and hundreds of personnel working on the pile, the threat of a massive event with extensive human causalities due to underground explosions was real and serious. Final status: The cars were eventually located and removed. Some had exploded and were completely burned-out while others were in pristine, drivable condition.
•WTC Building 6 housed several federal agencies, primarily U.S. Customs (Photo 11). The third floor—now largely inaccessible—contained a firing range. More than 1.2 million rounds of ammunition were stored on this level, as was a vault used to store other explosives and weapons. A seizure vault was also on the third floor; it contained evidence (such as drugs, cash and evidence files) seized during Customs operations. Final status: At great personal risk, Customs officials, the FBI and contractor representatives located and removed the criminal evidence from Building 6 during the fourth week of the effort. The ammunition was finally located on Oct. 24, 2001, melted together into large “bullet balls” that were extremely dangerous to handle and dispose of properly (Photo 12). At one point, a discharge of a bullet, due to the immense heat in the area, caused a shrapnel wound to the face of one worker.
Pile was ALWAYS hot.
Arthur
See Rule # 4 ---
See Rule # 4 ---
4. Use a straw man. Find or create a seeming element of your opponent's argument which you can easily knock down to make yourself look good and the opponent to look bad. Either make up an issue you may safely imply exists based on your interpretation of the opponent/opponent arguments/situation, or select the weakest aspect of the weakest charges. Amplify their significance and destroy them in a way which appears to debunk all the charges, real and fabricated alike, while actually avoiding discussion of the real issues.
Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation
http://www.whale.to/m/disin.html
See also Rule # 10
Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation
http://www.whale.to/m/disin.html
--------------
Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation
http://www.whale.to/m/disin.html
--------------
by one of the Schneiby crew
Now find one that happens before the collapse... I've been asking for this for some time and none of you "squibies" can produce one.
All the squibs occured before the collapse of the particular section of the building which was being weakened by these initial explosions, thus allowing for removal of resistance from the intact lower structure of the building to allow the collapse to continue unabated - the magical (and previously un-heard of) Global Disproportionate Progressive Collapse.
While this is a sophist statement (sounding plausible without having any real basis in fact) --- the CTers have provided absolutely no evidence to support this sophistry.
Where is the evidence of other collapsing buildings which demonstrate this alleged 'piston effect'?
Also, (as it has often been pointed out before in answer to this continally thrown-in repetitious proclamation) --- you can not have your cake and eat it too --- on the one hand these tin-hat government conspiracy types would have you believe that the upper collapsing portion was falling apart in chaos... while at the same time, they also wish you to believe that it held together like a piston within a sleeve in order to compress air/debris below the descending piston to force it out of holes in the sleeve wall.
They have never offered a rational theory to show how these 'ejections' would not blow out all or most of the windows on the floors above where these 'ejections' appeared. Once again invoking the magic 'sentient' abilities of these anomalous phenomenom to pick and choose where it was going to appear (much like the Amazing Jet-Fuel in the basement theories).
While this is a sophist statement (sounding plausible without having any real basis in fact) --- the CTers have provided absolutely no evidence to support this sophistry.
Where is the evidence of other collapsing buildings which demonstrate this alleged 'piston effect'?
Also, (as it has often been pointed out before in answer to this continally thrown-in repetitious proclamation) --- you can not have your cake and eat it too --- on the one hand these tin-hat government conspiracy types would have you believe that the upper collapsing portion was falling apart in chaos... while at the same time, they also wish you to believe that it held together like a piston within a sleeve in order to compress air/debris below the descending piston to force it out of holes in the sleeve wall.
They have never offered a rational theory to show how these 'ejections' would not blow out all or most of the windows on the floors above where these 'ejections' appeared. Once again invoking the magic 'sentient' abilities of these anomalous phenomenom to pick and choose where it was going to appear (much like the Amazing Jet-Fuel in the basement theories).
The "MIB construction crew theory" is equal to the "Space Aliens teleported Lasers into the core theory" Both have ZERO evidence to back them up.
Again the disinfo tactic of appeals to the straw-man. See rules # 4 & # 10 above.
Exactly true... once the psyopts began to finger the 'usual suspects', the conspiracy theorists all jumped on the bandwagon that the ex-cia agent and his hedonistic muslim agents had committed the act.
Subsequently being too lazy to actually check the facts.
Had they done so, they would have discovered that the officially-promoted conspiracy theory holds no water at all, and in fact (although initially the gov't promised to 'prove' the allegations of such a conspiracy), have failed to offer one shred of forensic evidence to support such. This conspiracy theory has now entered the land of myths & legends, but many have been brainwashed to believe the legend.
As can be seen in this (and most threads related to 9/11).. the disinformationists avoid even attempting to support the official tale with facts & figures, such as evidence from the flight manifests that 19 evil muslims even boarded the planes in question.
The odd time they will throw in references to false and faked 'confessions' from tapes that the majority of western scholars have clearly labelled as 'fake'.
But apart from that, really waste no time at all in trying to defend & promote the official version of events, choosing rather to avoid such in favour of attacks on any alternatives put forth to challenge the fairy tale they promote.
Exactly true... once the psyopts began to finger the 'usual suspects', the conspiracy theorists all jumped on the bandwagon that the ex-cia agent and his hedonistic muslim agents had committed the act.
Subsequently being too lazy to actually check the facts.
Had they done so, they would have discovered that the officially-promoted conspiracy theory holds no water at all, and in fact (although initially the gov't promised to 'prove' the allegations of such a conspiracy), have failed to offer one shred of forensic evidence to support such. This conspiracy theory has now entered the land of myths & legends, but many have been brainwashed to believe the legend.
As can be seen in this (and most threads related to 9/11).. the disinformationists avoid even attempting to support the official tale with facts & figures, such as evidence from the flight manifests that 19 evil muslims even boarded the planes in question.
The odd time they will throw in references to false and faked 'confessions' from tapes that the majority of western scholars have clearly labelled as 'fake'.
But apart from that, really waste no time at all in trying to defend & promote the official version of events, choosing rather to avoid such in favour of attacks on any alternatives put forth to challenge the fairy tale they promote.
The day you COMPRESS and HARDEN a slurry of Aluminum Silicate and N204 by BAKING it is the day I come over to the "dark side".
The MOST ridiculous thing is you think this METC bomb actually exists.
The ONLY way you will come to the attention of the "AUTHORITIES" is if you actually ATTEMPT to Compress and Bake some N202, in which case they will have to come to your house to either pick up the pieces or put out the fire.
Pure nonsense. It is obvious that the legendarian has not studied how the mechanism works. I will grant that certain details are vague. Sweeney has been investigating the CIA for years, but as far as I know secret services don't normally publish 'CIA' operations and developments on the sunday edition of CNN (for some strange reason)
To say that sites which give details (even general details) related to bomb-making are NOT red-flagged by 'authorities' is the heighth of obfuscatory stupidity. Any one who believes that you can investigate or even query about bombs & explosives without coming to the attention of authorities is truly living in the land of fairy tales.
To imply such, is to imply that the authorities are NOT EVEN interested in persons who might have 'terrorist' intentions...
...family doctors, dentists, accountants, etc (everyday 'normal' folk), don't usually have a need to look up bomb-making formulas or explosives... (at least NOT from the CIA/FBI/SS point of view).
I personally do NOT advocate violence in any way, however a high percentage of people who are investigating sites which give details on making explosive devices I would think have some devious need for such information. As can be seen from sites like the anarchists cookbook, hackcanada, and ka-f>cking-boom...
http://www.totse.com/en/bad_ideas/ka_fucking_boom/index.html
...a great deal of sophisticated explosives chemistry is revealed for any to see... always with the disclaimers of course, that "we recommend you don't try this at home".
One thing I will partly agree with arthur on here, is that...
I certainly would not even attempt to play with these recipes, and would suggest that... any who play with such technologies in their kitchen are likely to suffer consequences not intended. Many 'terrorists' have blown themselves up in their kitchens.
Although, I don't think the DoD, CIA, and other agencies are just playing with this stuff in their kitchens, but rather under highly controlled laboratory conditions where 'accidents' are rare.
I certainly would not even attempt to play with these recipes, and would suggest that... any who play with such technologies in their kitchen are likely to suffer consequences not intended. Many 'terrorists' have blown themselves up in their kitchens.
Although, I don't think the DoD, CIA, and other agencies are just playing with this stuff in their kitchens, but rather under highly controlled laboratory conditions where 'accidents' are rare.
Interesting, I did a google search for 'METC bomb' and the first site which comes up is proparanoid.net.
'professional paranoid' is a site by H. Michael Sweeney --- look him up.
The METC technology he describes...
Please note that I am not promoting (as fact) that the METC technology WAS used at WTC. I found the info through my research and share it with you. Given the effects described for such technology (to me) it seems to fit the effects seen at WTC far better than a 'jet-fuel' explosion which happened virtually simultaneously as the aircraft impact... unless you believe the Amazing Super-Sonic Jet Fuel Theory proposed by Schneibster...
Please note that I am not promoting (as fact) that the METC technology WAS used at WTC. I found the info through my research and share it with you. Given the effects described for such technology (to me) it seems to fit the effects seen at WTC far better than a 'jet-fuel' explosion which happened virtually simultaneously as the aircraft impact... unless you believe the Amazing Super-Sonic Jet Fuel Theory proposed by Schneibster...
Originally posted by Schneibster
He {Rodriguez}CONCLUDES from the fact that he heard and felt the shock AFTER the explosion that the explosion preceded the impact; however, this CONCLUSION is incorrect. In fact, the shock of impact took over a second to make it from the impact site on the upper floors through the material of the building to the basement; the fuel explosion, however, made it in less than a second. Thus, the fuel explosion shockwave arrived and blew the doors off the elevator shaft before the impact shockwave did.
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...indpost&p=55654
Reply from one of the Schneiby crew...
Reply from one of the Schneiby crew...
Disinformationist B
You know they're in trouble when they have to dream up a bomb to support a dreamed up conspiracy.
Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation...
See Rules # 5, 18,
See also
Eight Traits of the Disinformationalist
See trait # 4 (Teamwork)
http://www.whale.to/b/sweeney.html
Cheers
http://www.asse.org/groundzero1.htm
Some interesting quotes:
Makes finding a passport not that unusual?
QUOTE
A tremendous amount of paper was scattered across the site as well—files, notes, pages from desk calendars, photographs, unopened mail, legal documents and myriad other papers common to an office environment. Papers and dust even blanketed a small cemetery located directly across the street from the site. There were also shoes of all types, styles and sizes scattered everywhere.
Support for the Bellows Theory?
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| A tremendous amount of paper was scattered across the site as well—files, notes, pages from desk calendars, photographs, unopened mail, legal documents and myriad other papers common to an office environment. Papers and dust even blanketed a small cemetery located directly across the street from the site. There were also shoes of all types, styles and sizes scattered everywhere. |
Support for the Bellows Theory?
Heavy Equipment Operations
The tremendous amount of heavy equipment used at Ground Zero created many opportunities for serious accidents (Photo 10). More than 30 crawler cranes (up to 1,000 ton in capacity), several dozen excavators, scores of backhoes and dozers, hundreds of trucks and many other types of equipment moved about the site at a hurried pace 24/7.
Limited access to WTC site?
QUOTE
Work Zone Control
From the beginning, many people with no credentials or work assignments were present at the disaster site. People would help in one area, then wander to another to provide assistance. ... To gain control of the site, the SH&E team recommended implementation of a positive access accountability system; this eventually resulted in the creation of four separate zones at Ground Zero. Four construction firms were assigned responsibility for demolition and recovery activities, as well as SH&E issues, in each zone.
Each contractor’s safety professionals reported to the NYC Dept. of Design and Construction (DDC). Bechtel provided SH&E consultation to the DDC for the entire site. Eventually, the National Guard took responsibility for access control and personnel badges, which substantially decreased work zone control problems. The number of workers at the site dropped from an estimated 10,000 (during the first week) to fewer than 2,500. In addition to firefighters and police department representatives, some 1,500 iron workers and 400 operating engineers were on site, along with many carpenters, laborers and mill workers.
From the beginning, many people with no credentials or work assignments were present at the disaster site. People would help in one area, then wander to another to provide assistance. ... To gain control of the site, the SH&E team recommended implementation of a positive access accountability system; this eventually resulted in the creation of four separate zones at Ground Zero. Four construction firms were assigned responsibility for demolition and recovery activities, as well as SH&E issues, in each zone.
Each contractor’s safety professionals reported to the NYC Dept. of Design and Construction (DDC). Bechtel provided SH&E consultation to the DDC for the entire site. Eventually, the National Guard took responsibility for access control and personnel badges, which substantially decreased work zone control problems. The number of workers at the site dropped from an estimated 10,000 (during the first week) to fewer than 2,500. In addition to firefighters and police department representatives, some 1,500 iron workers and 400 operating engineers were on site, along with many carpenters, laborers and mill workers.
Things KNOWN to be in the debris pile:
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Work Zone Control From the beginning, many people with no credentials or work assignments were present at the disaster site. People would help in one area, then wander to another to provide assistance. ... To gain control of the site, the SH&E team recommended implementation of a positive access accountability system; this eventually resulted in the creation of four separate zones at Ground Zero. Four construction firms were assigned responsibility for demolition and recovery activities, as well as SH&E issues, in each zone. Each contractor’s safety professionals reported to the NYC Dept. of Design and Construction (DDC). Bechtel provided SH&E consultation to the DDC for the entire site. Eventually, the National Guard took responsibility for access control and personnel badges, which substantially decreased work zone control problems. The number of workers at the site dropped from an estimated 10,000 (during the first week) to fewer than 2,500. In addition to firefighters and police department representatives, some 1,500 iron workers and 400 operating engineers were on site, along with many carpenters, laborers and mill workers. |
Things KNOWN to be in the debris pile:
More Challenges
Soon after our arrival at Ground Zero, the SH&E team received a briefing from Port Authority SH&E personnel regarding hazardous materials and commodities stored in (and under) some WTC buildings. ... The most-serious concerns included:
•72,000 gallons of diesel fuel were stored in a tank (on basement level 7) for the WTC complex backup generator/power systems. Final status: The tank was eventually located and inspected. Although slightly damaged, no leaks were found. The fuel was removed.
•1,000 gallons of gasoline, contained in individual five-gallon cans, were located throughout many levels of each of the collapsed towers. Final status: No gasoline cans were ever found; presumed destroyed in the collapse and ensuing fires.
•3,600 pounds of lead acid batteries, used for backup power, were located on various floors of the collapsed towers. Final status: No batteries were ever found; presumed destroyed.
•Three underground floors had been used as a parking garage with a total capacity of 2,000 cars. Assuming (conservatively) the garage to be half-full, with the cars’ fuel tanks being anywhere from near empty to full, the explosive potential was extraordinary. With the stability of the debris pile unknown, subsurface fires burning continuously, welding and other hot work being performed on top of the debris, and hundreds of personnel working on the pile, the threat of a massive event with extensive human causalities due to underground explosions was real and serious. Final status: The cars were eventually located and removed. Some had exploded and were completely burned-out while others were in pristine, drivable condition.
•WTC Building 6 housed several federal agencies, primarily U.S. Customs (Photo 11). The third floor—now largely inaccessible—contained a firing range. More than 1.2 million rounds of ammunition were stored on this level, as was a vault used to store other explosives and weapons. A seizure vault was also on the third floor; it contained evidence (such as drugs, cash and evidence files) seized during Customs operations. Final status: At great personal risk, Customs officials, the FBI and contractor representatives located and removed the criminal evidence from Building 6 during the fourth week of the effort. The ammunition was finally located on Oct. 24, 2001, melted together into large “bullet balls” that were extremely dangerous to handle and dispose of properly (Photo 12). At one point, a discharge of a bullet, due to the immense heat in the area, caused a shrapnel wound to the face of one worker.
Pile was ALWAYS hot.
QUOTE
•The debris pile at Ground Zero was always tremendously hot. Thermal measurements taken by helicopter each day showed underground temperatures ranging from 400ºF to more than 2,800ºF. The surface was so hot that standing too long in one spot softened (and even melted) the soles of our safety shoes. Steel toes would often heat up and become intolerable. ... The underground fire burned for exactly 100 days and was finally declared “extinguished” on Dec. 19, 2001.
Arthur
QUOTE
by adou-disinfo
How come no mention of the shape shifting Reptilian Overlords? That conspiracy theory just a little TOO far out for you?
How come no mention of the shape shifting Reptilian Overlords? That conspiracy theory just a little TOO far out for you?
See Rule # 4 ---
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| by adou-disinfo How come no mention of the shape shifting Reptilian Overlords? That conspiracy theory just a little TOO far out for you? |
See Rule # 4 ---
4. Use a straw man. Find or create a seeming element of your opponent's argument which you can easily knock down to make yourself look good and the opponent to look bad. Either make up an issue you may safely imply exists based on your interpretation of the opponent/opponent arguments/situation, or select the weakest aspect of the weakest charges. Amplify their significance and destroy them in a way which appears to debunk all the charges, real and fabricated alike, while actually avoiding discussion of the real issues.
Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation
http://www.whale.to/m/disin.html
See also Rule # 10
QUOTE
10. Associate opponent charges with old news. A derivative of the straw man -- usually, in any large-scale matter of high visibility, someone will make charges early on which can be or were already easily dealt with - a kind of investment for the future should the matter not be so easily contained.) Where it can be foreseen, have your own side raise a straw man issue and have it dealt with early on as part of the initial contingency plans. Subsequent charges, regardless of validity or new ground uncovered, can usually then be associated with the original charge and dismissed as simply being a rehash without need to address current issues -- so much the better where the opponent is or was involved with the original source.
Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation
http://www.whale.to/m/disin.html
--------------
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| 10. Associate opponent charges with old news. A derivative of the straw man -- usually, in any large-scale matter of high visibility, someone will make charges early on which can be or were already easily dealt with - a kind of investment for the future should the matter not be so easily contained.) Where it can be foreseen, have your own side raise a straw man issue and have it dealt with early on as part of the initial contingency plans. Subsequent charges, regardless of validity or new ground uncovered, can usually then be associated with the original charge and dismissed as simply being a rehash without need to address current issues -- so much the better where the opponent is or was involved with the original source. |
Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation
http://www.whale.to/m/disin.html
--------------
by one of the Schneiby crew
Now find one that happens before the collapse... I've been asking for this for some time and none of you "squibies" can produce one.
All the squibs occured before the collapse of the particular section of the building which was being weakened by these initial explosions, thus allowing for removal of resistance from the intact lower structure of the building to allow the collapse to continue unabated - the magical (and previously un-heard of) Global Disproportionate Progressive Collapse.
QUOTE
We have addressed this over and over again. This could just simply be positive pressure created by the compressing floor space.
While this is a sophist statement (sounding plausible without having any real basis in fact) --- the CTers have provided absolutely no evidence to support this sophistry.
Where is the evidence of other collapsing buildings which demonstrate this alleged 'piston effect'?
Also, (as it has often been pointed out before in answer to this continally thrown-in repetitious proclamation) --- you can not have your cake and eat it too --- on the one hand these tin-hat government conspiracy types would have you believe that the upper collapsing portion was falling apart in chaos... while at the same time, they also wish you to believe that it held together like a piston within a sleeve in order to compress air/debris below the descending piston to force it out of holes in the sleeve wall.
They have never offered a rational theory to show how these 'ejections' would not blow out all or most of the windows on the floors above where these 'ejections' appeared. Once again invoking the magic 'sentient' abilities of these anomalous phenomenom to pick and choose where it was going to appear (much like the Amazing Jet-Fuel in the basement theories).
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| We have addressed this over and over again. This could just simply be positive pressure created by the compressing floor space. |
While this is a sophist statement (sounding plausible without having any real basis in fact) --- the CTers have provided absolutely no evidence to support this sophistry.
Where is the evidence of other collapsing buildings which demonstrate this alleged 'piston effect'?
Also, (as it has often been pointed out before in answer to this continally thrown-in repetitious proclamation) --- you can not have your cake and eat it too --- on the one hand these tin-hat government conspiracy types would have you believe that the upper collapsing portion was falling apart in chaos... while at the same time, they also wish you to believe that it held together like a piston within a sleeve in order to compress air/debris below the descending piston to force it out of holes in the sleeve wall.
They have never offered a rational theory to show how these 'ejections' would not blow out all or most of the windows on the floors above where these 'ejections' appeared. Once again invoking the magic 'sentient' abilities of these anomalous phenomenom to pick and choose where it was going to appear (much like the Amazing Jet-Fuel in the basement theories).
The "MIB construction crew theory" is equal to the "Space Aliens teleported Lasers into the core theory" Both have ZERO evidence to back them up.
Again the disinfo tactic of appeals to the straw-man. See rules # 4 & # 10 above.
QUOTE
There in lies a metaphor for the whole 9/11 conspiracy movement. They're just to lazy to double check anything and jump to conclusions.
Exactly true... once the psyopts began to finger the 'usual suspects', the conspiracy theorists all jumped on the bandwagon that the ex-cia agent and his hedonistic muslim agents had committed the act.
Subsequently being too lazy to actually check the facts.
Had they done so, they would have discovered that the officially-promoted conspiracy theory holds no water at all, and in fact (although initially the gov't promised to 'prove' the allegations of such a conspiracy), have failed to offer one shred of forensic evidence to support such. This conspiracy theory has now entered the land of myths & legends, but many have been brainwashed to believe the legend.
As can be seen in this (and most threads related to 9/11).. the disinformationists avoid even attempting to support the official tale with facts & figures, such as evidence from the flight manifests that 19 evil muslims even boarded the planes in question.
The odd time they will throw in references to false and faked 'confessions' from tapes that the majority of western scholars have clearly labelled as 'fake'.
But apart from that, really waste no time at all in trying to defend & promote the official version of events, choosing rather to avoid such in favour of attacks on any alternatives put forth to challenge the fairy tale they promote.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| There in lies a metaphor for the whole 9/11 conspiracy movement. They're just to lazy to double check anything and jump to conclusions. |
Exactly true... once the psyopts began to finger the 'usual suspects', the conspiracy theorists all jumped on the bandwagon that the ex-cia agent and his hedonistic muslim agents had committed the act.
Subsequently being too lazy to actually check the facts.
Had they done so, they would have discovered that the officially-promoted conspiracy theory holds no water at all, and in fact (although initially the gov't promised to 'prove' the allegations of such a conspiracy), have failed to offer one shred of forensic evidence to support such. This conspiracy theory has now entered the land of myths & legends, but many have been brainwashed to believe the legend.
As can be seen in this (and most threads related to 9/11).. the disinformationists avoid even attempting to support the official tale with facts & figures, such as evidence from the flight manifests that 19 evil muslims even boarded the planes in question.
The odd time they will throw in references to false and faked 'confessions' from tapes that the majority of western scholars have clearly labelled as 'fake'.
But apart from that, really waste no time at all in trying to defend & promote the official version of events, choosing rather to avoid such in favour of attacks on any alternatives put forth to challenge the fairy tale they promote.
The day you COMPRESS and HARDEN a slurry of Aluminum Silicate and N204 by BAKING it is the day I come over to the "dark side".
The MOST ridiculous thing is you think this METC bomb actually exists.
The ONLY way you will come to the attention of the "AUTHORITIES" is if you actually ATTEMPT to Compress and Bake some N202, in which case they will have to come to your house to either pick up the pieces or put out the fire.
Pure nonsense. It is obvious that the legendarian has not studied how the mechanism works. I will grant that certain details are vague. Sweeney has been investigating the CIA for years, but as far as I know secret services don't normally publish 'CIA' operations and developments on the sunday edition of CNN (for some strange reason)
To say that sites which give details (even general details) related to bomb-making are NOT red-flagged by 'authorities' is the heighth of obfuscatory stupidity. Any one who believes that you can investigate or even query about bombs & explosives without coming to the attention of authorities is truly living in the land of fairy tales.
To imply such, is to imply that the authorities are NOT EVEN interested in persons who might have 'terrorist' intentions...
...family doctors, dentists, accountants, etc (everyday 'normal' folk), don't usually have a need to look up bomb-making formulas or explosives... (at least NOT from the CIA/FBI/SS point of view).
I personally do NOT advocate violence in any way, however a high percentage of people who are investigating sites which give details on making explosive devices I would think have some devious need for such information. As can be seen from sites like the anarchists cookbook, hackcanada, and ka-f>cking-boom...
http://www.totse.com/en/bad_ideas/ka_fucking_boom/index.html
...a great deal of sophisticated explosives chemistry is revealed for any to see... always with the disclaimers of course, that "we recommend you don't try this at home".
One thing I will partly agree with arthur on here, is that...
QUOTE
The only way you will come to the attention of the "AUTHORITIES" is if you actually ATTEMPT ...{to make explosives in your kitchen}... in which case they will have to come to your house to either pick up the pieces or put out the fire.
I certainly would not even attempt to play with these recipes, and would suggest that... any who play with such technologies in their kitchen are likely to suffer consequences not intended. Many 'terrorists' have blown themselves up in their kitchens.
Although, I don't think the DoD, CIA, and other agencies are just playing with this stuff in their kitchens, but rather under highly controlled laboratory conditions where 'accidents' are rare.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| The only way you will come to the attention of the "AUTHORITIES" is if you actually ATTEMPT ...{to make explosives in your kitchen}... in which case they will have to come to your house to either pick up the pieces or put out the fire. |
I certainly would not even attempt to play with these recipes, and would suggest that... any who play with such technologies in their kitchen are likely to suffer consequences not intended. Many 'terrorists' have blown themselves up in their kitchens.
Although, I don't think the DoD, CIA, and other agencies are just playing with this stuff in their kitchens, but rather under highly controlled laboratory conditions where 'accidents' are rare.
Interesting, I did a google search for 'METC bomb' and the first site which comes up is proparanoid.net.
'professional paranoid' is a site by H. Michael Sweeney --- look him up.
The METC technology he describes...
QUOTE
,,, comes from Fatal Rebirth Fatal Rebirth , a book on crimes of the intelligence community by H. Michael Sweeney. More about Fatal Rebirth and METC technology can be found at his Web site, proparanoid.com. The author flatly states that METC is real technology, and he personally believes they may have been used in both the 1993 WTC bombing and the Murrah building blasts. METC, according to Mr. Sweeney, is also likely the technology used in 'The Mother of All Bombs' as used in Iraq during 'Shock and Awe' operations. Critical information has been withheld to prevent bomb duplication.
Please note that I am not promoting (as fact) that the METC technology WAS used at WTC. I found the info through my research and share it with you. Given the effects described for such technology (to me) it seems to fit the effects seen at WTC far better than a 'jet-fuel' explosion which happened virtually simultaneously as the aircraft impact... unless you believe the Amazing Super-Sonic Jet Fuel Theory proposed by Schneibster...
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| ,,, comes from Fatal Rebirth Fatal Rebirth , a book on crimes of the intelligence community by H. Michael Sweeney. More about Fatal Rebirth and METC technology can be found at his Web site, proparanoid.com. The author flatly states that METC is real technology, and he personally believes they may have been used in both the 1993 WTC bombing and the Murrah building blasts. METC, according to Mr. Sweeney, is also likely the technology used in 'The Mother of All Bombs' as used in Iraq during 'Shock and Awe' operations. Critical information has been withheld to prevent bomb duplication. |
Please note that I am not promoting (as fact) that the METC technology WAS used at WTC. I found the info through my research and share it with you. Given the effects described for such technology (to me) it seems to fit the effects seen at WTC far better than a 'jet-fuel' explosion which happened virtually simultaneously as the aircraft impact... unless you believe the Amazing Super-Sonic Jet Fuel Theory proposed by Schneibster...
Originally posted by Schneibster
He {Rodriguez}CONCLUDES from the fact that he heard and felt the shock AFTER the explosion that the explosion preceded the impact; however, this CONCLUSION is incorrect. In fact, the shock of impact took over a second to make it from the impact site on the upper floors through the material of the building to the basement; the fuel explosion, however, made it in less than a second. Thus, the fuel explosion shockwave arrived and blew the doors off the elevator shaft before the impact shockwave did.
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...indpost&p=55654
QUOTE
Disinfomationist A
But hey, its a conspiracy theory, you didn't expect it to make sense did you?
Arthur
But hey, its a conspiracy theory, you didn't expect it to make sense did you?
Arthur
Reply from one of the Schneiby crew...
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Disinfomationist A But hey, its a conspiracy theory, you didn't expect it to make sense did you? Arthur |
Reply from one of the Schneiby crew...
Disinformationist B
You know they're in trouble when they have to dream up a bomb to support a dreamed up conspiracy.
Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation...
See Rules # 5, 18,
See also
Eight Traits of the Disinformationalist
See trait # 4 (Teamwork)
QUOTE
They tend to operate in self-congratulatory and complementary packs or teams. Of course, this can happen naturally in any public forum, but there will likely be an ongoing pattern of frequent exchanges of this sort where professionals are involved. Sometimes one of the players will infiltrate the opponent camp to become a source for straw man or other tactics designed to dilute opponent presentation strength.
http://www.whale.to/b/sweeney.html
Cheers
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 21 2006, 04:48 PM)
Interesting article:
http://www.asse.org/groundzero1.htm
Some interesting quotes:
Makes finding a passport not that unusual?
Support for the Bellows Theory?
Support for the Bellows Theory?
Heavy Equipment Operations
The tremendous amount of heavy equipment used at Ground Zero created many opportunities for serious accidents (Photo 10). More than 30 crawler cranes (up to 1,000 ton in capacity), several dozen excavators, scores of backhoes and dozers, hundreds of trucks and many other types of equipment moved about the site at a hurried pace 24/7.
Limited access to WTC site?
Things KNOWN to be in the debris pile:
Things KNOWN to be in the debris pile:
More Challenges
Soon after our arrival at Ground Zero, the SH&E team received a briefing from Port Authority SH&E personnel regarding hazardous materials and commodities stored in (and under) some WTC buildings. ... The most-serious concerns included:
•72,000 gallons of diesel fuel were stored in a tank (on basement level 7) for the WTC complex backup generator/power systems. Final status: The tank was eventually located and inspected. Although slightly damaged, no leaks were found. The fuel was removed.
•1,000 gallons of gasoline, contained in individual five-gallon cans, were located throughout many levels of each of the collapsed towers. Final status: No gasoline cans were ever found; presumed destroyed in the collapse and ensuing fires.
•3,600 pounds of lead acid batteries, used for backup power, were located on various floors of the collapsed towers. Final status: No batteries were ever found; presumed destroyed.
•Three underground floors had been used as a parking garage with a total capacity of 2,000 cars. Assuming (conservatively) the garage to be half-full, with the cars’ fuel tanks being anywhere from near empty to full, the explosive potential was extraordinary. With the stability of the debris pile unknown, subsurface fires burning continuously, welding and other hot work being performed on top of the debris, and hundreds of personnel working on the pile, the threat of a massive event with extensive human causalities due to underground explosions was real and serious. Final status: The cars were eventually located and removed. Some had exploded and were completely burned-out while others were in pristine, drivable condition.
•WTC Building 6 housed several federal agencies, primarily U.S. Customs (Photo 11). The third floor—now largely inaccessible—contained a firing range. More than 1.2 million rounds of ammunition were stored on this level, as was a vault used to store other explosives and weapons. A seizure vault was also on the third floor; it contained evidence (such as drugs, cash and evidence files) seized during Customs operations. Final status: At great personal risk, Customs officials, the FBI and contractor representatives located and removed the criminal evidence from Building 6 during the fourth week of the effort. The ammunition was finally located on Oct. 24, 2001, melted together into large “bullet balls” that were extremely dangerous to handle and dispose of properly (Photo 12). At one point, a discharge of a bullet, due to the immense heat in the area, caused a shrapnel wound to the face of one worker.
Pile was ALWAYS hot.
Arthur
This was a great piece of investigative work.
Arthur
This was a great piece of investigative work.
"No gasoline cans were ever found; presumed destroyed in the collapse and ensuing fires."
How long can 1,000 gallons of gasoline burn?
How long can it burn with office products?
How long can it burn with office supplies in an oxygen starved rubble pile?
How long can it burn with office supplies in an oxygen starved rubble pile which has "More than 30 crawler cranes (up to 1,000 ton in capacity), several dozen excavators, scores of backhoes and dozers, hundreds of trucks and many other types of equipment moved about the site at a hurried pace" above it?
Strong support for the bellows hypothesis exist. Much better than thermite hypothesis which not one shred of evidence recovered at the site exist.
So we are still left with two natural hypothesis which fit the evidence. None which fit the thermite hypothesis.
http://www.asse.org/groundzero1.htm
Some interesting quotes:
Makes finding a passport not that unusual?
QUOTE
A tremendous amount of paper was scattered across the site as well—files, notes, pages from desk calendars, photographs, unopened mail, legal documents and myriad other papers common to an office environment. Papers and dust even blanketed a small cemetery located directly across the street from the site. There were also shoes of all types, styles and sizes scattered everywhere.
Support for the Bellows Theory?
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| A tremendous amount of paper was scattered across the site as well—files, notes, pages from desk calendars, photographs, unopened mail, legal documents and myriad other papers common to an office environment. Papers and dust even blanketed a small cemetery located directly across the street from the site. There were also shoes of all types, styles and sizes scattered everywhere. |
Support for the Bellows Theory?
Heavy Equipment Operations
The tremendous amount of heavy equipment used at Ground Zero created many opportunities for serious accidents (Photo 10). More than 30 crawler cranes (up to 1,000 ton in capacity), several dozen excavators, scores of backhoes and dozers, hundreds of trucks and many other types of equipment moved about the site at a hurried pace 24/7.
Limited access to WTC site?
QUOTE
Work Zone Control
From the beginning, many people with no credentials or work assignments were present at the disaster site. People would help in one area, then wander to another to provide assistance. ... To gain control of the site, the SH&E team recommended implementation of a positive access accountability system; this eventually resulted in the creation of four separate zones at Ground Zero. Four construction firms were assigned responsibility for demolition and recovery activities, as well as SH&E issues, in each zone.
Each contractor’s safety professionals reported to the NYC Dept. of Design and Construction (DDC). Bechtel provided SH&E consultation to the DDC for the entire site. Eventually, the National Guard took responsibility for access control and personnel badges, which substantially decreased work zone control problems. The number of workers at the site dropped from an estimated 10,000 (during the first week) to fewer than 2,500. In addition to firefighters and police department representatives, some 1,500 iron workers and 400 operating engineers were on site, along with many carpenters, laborers and mill workers.
From the beginning, many people with no credentials or work assignments were present at the disaster site. People would help in one area, then wander to another to provide assistance. ... To gain control of the site, the SH&E team recommended implementation of a positive access accountability system; this eventually resulted in the creation of four separate zones at Ground Zero. Four construction firms were assigned responsibility for demolition and recovery activities, as well as SH&E issues, in each zone.
Each contractor’s safety professionals reported to the NYC Dept. of Design and Construction (DDC). Bechtel provided SH&E consultation to the DDC for the entire site. Eventually, the National Guard took responsibility for access control and personnel badges, which substantially decreased work zone control problems. The number of workers at the site dropped from an estimated 10,000 (during the first week) to fewer than 2,500. In addition to firefighters and police department representatives, some 1,500 iron workers and 400 operating engineers were on site, along with many carpenters, laborers and mill workers.
Things KNOWN to be in the debris pile:
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Work Zone Control From the beginning, many people with no credentials or work assignments were present at the disaster site. People would help in one area, then wander to another to provide assistance. ... To gain control of the site, the SH&E team recommended implementation of a positive access accountability system; this eventually resulted in the creation of four separate zones at Ground Zero. Four construction firms were assigned responsibility for demolition and recovery activities, as well as SH&E issues, in each zone. Each contractor’s safety professionals reported to the NYC Dept. of Design and Construction (DDC). Bechtel provided SH&E consultation to the DDC for the entire site. Eventually, the National Guard took responsibility for access control and personnel badges, which substantially decreased work zone control problems. The number of workers at the site dropped from an estimated 10,000 (during the first week) to fewer than 2,500. In addition to firefighters and police department representatives, some 1,500 iron workers and 400 operating engineers were on site, along with many carpenters, laborers and mill workers. |
Things KNOWN to be in the debris pile:
More Challenges
Soon after our arrival at Ground Zero, the SH&E team received a briefing from Port Authority SH&E personnel regarding hazardous materials and commodities stored in (and under) some WTC buildings. ... The most-serious concerns included:
•72,000 gallons of diesel fuel were stored in a tank (on basement level 7) for the WTC complex backup generator/power systems. Final status: The tank was eventually located and inspected. Although slightly damaged, no leaks were found. The fuel was removed.
•1,000 gallons of gasoline, contained in individual five-gallon cans, were located throughout many levels of each of the collapsed towers. Final status: No gasoline cans were ever found; presumed destroyed in the collapse and ensuing fires.
•3,600 pounds of lead acid batteries, used for backup power, were located on various floors of the collapsed towers. Final status: No batteries were ever found; presumed destroyed.
•Three underground floors had been used as a parking garage with a total capacity of 2,000 cars. Assuming (conservatively) the garage to be half-full, with the cars’ fuel tanks being anywhere from near empty to full, the explosive potential was extraordinary. With the stability of the debris pile unknown, subsurface fires burning continuously, welding and other hot work being performed on top of the debris, and hundreds of personnel working on the pile, the threat of a massive event with extensive human causalities due to underground explosions was real and serious. Final status: The cars were eventually located and removed. Some had exploded and were completely burned-out while others were in pristine, drivable condition.
•WTC Building 6 housed several federal agencies, primarily U.S. Customs (Photo 11). The third floor—now largely inaccessible—contained a firing range. More than 1.2 million rounds of ammunition were stored on this level, as was a vault used to store other explosives and weapons. A seizure vault was also on the third floor; it contained evidence (such as drugs, cash and evidence files) seized during Customs operations. Final status: At great personal risk, Customs officials, the FBI and contractor representatives located and removed the criminal evidence from Building 6 during the fourth week of the effort. The ammunition was finally located on Oct. 24, 2001, melted together into large “bullet balls” that were extremely dangerous to handle and dispose of properly (Photo 12). At one point, a discharge of a bullet, due to the immense heat in the area, caused a shrapnel wound to the face of one worker.
Pile was ALWAYS hot.
QUOTE
•The debris pile at Ground Zero was always tremendously hot. Thermal measurements taken by helicopter each day showed underground temperatures ranging from 400ºF to more than 2,800ºF. The surface was so hot that standing too long in one spot softened (and even melted) the soles of our safety shoes. Steel toes would often heat up and become intolerable. ... The underground fire burned for exactly 100 days and was finally declared “extinguished” on Dec. 19, 2001.
Arthur
This was a great piece of investigative work.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| •The debris pile at Ground Zero was always tremendously hot. Thermal measurements taken by helicopter each day showed underground temperatures ranging from 400ºF to more than 2,800ºF. The surface was so hot that standing too long in one spot softened (and even melted) the soles of our safety shoes. Steel toes would often heat up and become intolerable. ... The underground fire burned for exactly 100 days and was finally declared “extinguished” on Dec. 19, 2001. |
Arthur
This was a great piece of investigative work.
"No gasoline cans were ever found; presumed destroyed in the collapse and ensuing fires."
How long can 1,000 gallons of gasoline burn?
How long can it burn with office products?
How long can it burn with office supplies in an oxygen starved rubble pile?
How long can it burn with office supplies in an oxygen starved rubble pile which has "More than 30 crawler cranes (up to 1,000 ton in capacity), several dozen excavators, scores of backhoes and dozers, hundreds of trucks and many other types of equipment moved about the site at a hurried pace" above it?
Strong support for the bellows hypothesis exist. Much better than thermite hypothesis which not one shred of evidence recovered at the site exist.
So we are still left with two natural hypothesis which fit the evidence. None which fit the thermite hypothesis.
The thermite reaction...
http://media.putfile.com/thermitef
Patent # 6766744 seems to describe the housing technology related to METC type incendiaries...(although the device desribed below is related to thermite incendiary bombs as opposed to the METC thermobaric device - the descriptions given of the housing and dispersal mechanism seems quite similar to METC technology. To say that Thermobaric Bombs do NOT exist is nonsense. They have been used extensively in Iraq, and the technology is well documented. One thing the CT's ignore when mentioning thermobaric weapons (in relation to the WTC)... is that these are sophisticated systems dependant upon precise mixture,dispersal, and timing regimes.
To suggest that such bombs can just accidentally create themselves outside of controlled conditions is pure 'horse-pucky'.
http://www.dodtechmatch.com/DOD/Patent/Pat...d=6766744&HL=ON
OR you can find it at the US Patent Office...
http://www.uspto.gov/
Incendiary Device...
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?...4&RS=PN/6766744
A guide for Explosion and Bombing Scene Investigation (were these investigative tactics utilized at WTC... ???)
Patent # 6766744 seems to describe the housing technology related to METC type incendiaries...(although the device desribed below is related to thermite incendiary bombs as opposed to the METC thermobaric device - the descriptions given of the housing and dispersal mechanism seems quite similar to METC technology. To say that Thermobaric Bombs do NOT exist is nonsense. They have been used extensively in Iraq, and the technology is well documented. One thing the CT's ignore when mentioning thermobaric weapons (in relation to the WTC)... is that these are sophisticated systems dependant upon precise mixture,dispersal, and timing regimes.
To suggest that such bombs can just accidentally create themselves outside of controlled conditions is pure 'horse-pucky'.
http://www.dodtechmatch.com/DOD/Patent/Pat...d=6766744&HL=ON
OR you can find it at the US Patent Office...
http://www.uspto.gov/
Incendiary Device...
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?...4&RS=PN/6766744
A guide for Explosion and Bombing Scene Investigation (were these investigative tactics utilized at WTC... ???)
Message from the Attorney General
The investigation conducted at the scene of an explosion or bombing plays a vital role in uncovering the truth about the incident. The evidence recovered can be critical in identifying, charging, and ultimately convicting suspected criminals. For this reason, it is absolutely essential that the evidence be collected in a professional manner that will yield successful laboratory analyses. One way of ensuring that we, as investigators, obtain evidence of the highest quality and utility is to follow sound protocols in our investigations.
http://media.putfile.com/thermitef
QUOTE
by disinformationist B
Does anyone have a reliable source for this 'METC bomb' or is this just more CT nonsense?
Does anyone have a reliable source for this 'METC bomb' or is this just more CT nonsense?
Patent # 6766744 seems to describe the housing technology related to METC type incendiaries...(although the device desribed below is related to thermite incendiary bombs as opposed to the METC thermobaric device - the descriptions given of the housing and dispersal mechanism seems quite similar to METC technology. To say that Thermobaric Bombs do NOT exist is nonsense. They have been used extensively in Iraq, and the technology is well documented. One thing the CT's ignore when mentioning thermobaric weapons (in relation to the WTC)... is that these are sophisticated systems dependant upon precise mixture,dispersal, and timing regimes.
To suggest that such bombs can just accidentally create themselves outside of controlled conditions is pure 'horse-pucky'.
http://www.dodtechmatch.com/DOD/Patent/Pat...d=6766744&HL=ON
OR you can find it at the US Patent Office...
http://www.uspto.gov/
Incendiary Device...
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?...4&RS=PN/6766744
A guide for Explosion and Bombing Scene Investigation (were these investigative tactics utilized at WTC... ???)
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| by disinformationist B Does anyone have a reliable source for this 'METC bomb' or is this just more CT nonsense? |
Patent # 6766744 seems to describe the housing technology related to METC type incendiaries...(although the device desribed below is related to thermite incendiary bombs as opposed to the METC thermobaric device - the descriptions given of the housing and dispersal mechanism seems quite similar to METC technology. To say that Thermobaric Bombs do NOT exist is nonsense. They have been used extensively in Iraq, and the technology is well documented. One thing the CT's ignore when mentioning thermobaric weapons (in relation to the WTC)... is that these are sophisticated systems dependant upon precise mixture,dispersal, and timing regimes.
To suggest that such bombs can just accidentally create themselves outside of controlled conditions is pure 'horse-pucky'.
http://www.dodtechmatch.com/DOD/Patent/Pat...d=6766744&HL=ON
OR you can find it at the US Patent Office...
http://www.uspto.gov/
Incendiary Device...
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?...4&RS=PN/6766744
A guide for Explosion and Bombing Scene Investigation (were these investigative tactics utilized at WTC... ???)
Message from the Attorney General
The investigation conducted at the scene of an explosion or bombing plays a vital role in uncovering the truth about the incident. The evidence recovered can be critical in identifying, charging, and ultimately convicting suspected criminals. For this reason, it is absolutely essential that the evidence be collected in a professional manner that will yield successful laboratory analyses. One way of ensuring that we, as investigators, obtain evidence of the highest quality and utility is to follow sound protocols in our investigations.
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Feb 21 2006, 01:54 AM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 20 2006, 09:11 PM)
QUOTE (newton+)
bush's grandfather financed nazis.
Bush's Grandfather must have been a real A$$hole, since here is his son, Bush's father, Lt George Bush, prior to being SHOT DOWN while dive bombing a Japanese carrier. Note: Japan and Germany were on the same side in the war.

Arthur
You will go to any extent to distort the truth. Even The Guardian admits it is true:
How Bush's grandfather helped Hitler's rise to power
Rumours of a link between the US first family and the Nazi war machine have circulated for decades. Now the Guardian can reveal how repercussions of events that culminated in action under the Trading with the Enemy Act are still being felt by today's president
Ben Aris in Berlin and Duncan Campbell in Washington
Saturday September 25, 2004
The Guardian
George Bush's grandfather, the late US senator Prescott Bush, was a director and shareholder of companies that profited from their involvement with the financial backers of Nazi Germany.
The Guardian has obtained confirmation from newly discovered files in the US National Archives that a firm of which Prescott Bush was a director was involved with the financial architects of Nazism.
His business dealings, which continued until his company's assets were seized in 1942 under the Trading with the Enemy Act, has led more than 60 years later to a civil action for damages being brought in Germany against the Bush family by two former slave labourers at Auschwitz and to a hum of pre-election controversy.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1312540,00.html
EVEN THE GUARDIAN ADMITS ITS TRUE.
From the article:
There was nothing illegal in doing business with the Thyssens throughout the 1930s and many of America's best-known business names invested heavily in the German economic recovery.
One of the first jobs Walker gave Bush was to manage UBC. Bush was a founding member of the bank and the incorporation documents, which list him as one of seven directors, show he owned one share in UBC worth $125.
UBC was maintained intact and eventually returned to the American shareholders after the war.
The Anti-Defamation League in the US is supportive of Prescott Bush and the Bush family. In a statement last year they said that "rumours about the alleged Nazi 'ties' of the late Prescott Bush ... have circulated widely through the internet in recent years. These charges are untenable and politically motivated ... Prescott Bush was neither a Nazi nor a Nazi sympathiser."
Arthur
You'll have to address that to the person on your side of the fence who brought up the MAXXUM article. They said you have to believe in "shape shifting Reptilian Overlords". Not Adou
You'll have to address that to the person on your side of the fence who brought up the MAXXUM article. They said you have to believe in "shape shifting Reptilian Overlords". Not Adou
Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation
Interesting how you have that in your favorites.
-Why can't you find a photo of a squib before the collapse *Crickets*
-Why can't you find a photo of a squib before the collapse *Crickets*
While this is a sophist statement (sounding plausible without having any real basis in fact) --- the CTers have provided absolutely no evidence to support this sophistry.
Yes, I'm relying on peoples common sense. Or maybe you can explain to the people how bombs blow up slowly then grow progressively stronger... HUM?
Show me a photo of a similarly constructed building collapsing from the top on it's own and I'll show you the effect.
But since you or I can't, the next best way to test this would be with a controlled experiment.
Like a two year old again...
-Get a half gallon milk carton (Remove the milk) and cut the bottom of it square to represent the floor.
-Keep the carton upsidedown. Now push the square bottom through the carton. Note how the air is forced to the opening below.
Now imagine the bottom of the carton was concrete and steel floors with office furniture on it. Imagine you had 110 of these floors stacked in the tower with windows and vents. Where is the air going to go? Where is all the concrete and office furniture going to go? It's going to go everywhere it can go. Through the windows, elevator shafts staircases... EVERYWHERE.
Now if you can't use understand this concept any 2 year old can then I don't know what else to tell you... People are smart enough to know this. Calling it "sophistry" isn't going to change that fact. No "magic 'sentient' abilities" needed. Just simple common sense.
Show me a photo of a similarly constructed building collapsing from the top on it's own and I'll show you the effect.
But since you or I can't, the next best way to test this would be with a controlled experiment.
Like a two year old again...
-Get a half gallon milk carton (Remove the milk) and cut the bottom of it square to represent the floor.
-Keep the carton upsidedown. Now push the square bottom through the carton. Note how the air is forced to the opening below.
Now imagine the bottom of the carton was concrete and steel floors with office furniture on it. Imagine you had 110 of these floors stacked in the tower with windows and vents. Where is the air going to go? Where is all the concrete and office furniture going to go? It's going to go everywhere it can go. Through the windows, elevator shafts staircases... EVERYWHERE.
Now if you can't use understand this concept any 2 year old can then I don't know what else to tell you... People are smart enough to know this. Calling it "sophistry" isn't going to change that fact. No "magic 'sentient' abilities" needed. Just simple common sense.
The "MIB construction crew theory" is equal to the "Space Aliens teleported Lasers into the core theory" Both have ZERO evidence to back them up.
That was in responce to this...
I'm glade to see you don't aprove of your own disinfo tactic of appeals to the straw-man. See rules # 4 & # 10.
I'm glade to see you don't aprove of your own disinfo tactic of appeals to the straw-man. See rules # 4 & # 10.
Exactly true... once the psyopts began to finger the 'usual suspects', the conspiracy theorists all jumped on the bandwagon that the ex-cia agent and his hedonistic muslim agents had committed the act.
Subsequently being too lazy to actually check the facts.
Had they done so, they would have discovered that the officially-promoted conspiracy theory holds no water at all, and in fact (although initially the gov't promised to 'prove' the allegations of such a conspiracy), have failed to offer one shred of forensic evidence to support such. This conspiracy theory has now entered the land of myths & legends, but many have been brainwashed to believe the legend.
As can be seen in this (and most threads related to 9/11).. the disinformationists avoid even attempting to support the official tale with facts & figures, such as evidence from the flight manifests that 19 evil muslims even boarded the planes in question.
The odd time they will throw in references to false and faked 'confessions' from tapes that the majority of western scholars have clearly labelled as 'fake'.
But apart from that, really waste no time at all in trying to defend & promote the official version of events, choosing rather to avoid such in favour of attacks on any alternatives put forth to challenge the fairy tale they promote.
If YOU did some double checking you would have seen Osama was the perfect man to pull this off...
"A few Arabs in the desert could not have pulled this off..."
They say a few people in the desert couldn't have carried out the 9/11 attacks. Never mind how raciest it is to suggest 20 or so Arabs aren't smart enough to fly planes and keep a secret... The fact is the leader of this plot is the perfect one to carry it out. America thought him smart enough to hold back Russia. But what makes him especially perfect for the attacks is his education and family back ground. His father was the biggest Saudi Arabian construction contractor and Osama himself earned a degree in civil engineering from King Abdul Aziz University in Jeddah in 1979. Why wouldn't he be the perfect person to pull this off...
http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/osama.htm
'professional paranoid' is a name he choose to say
1 - A medical professional found him to be medically paranoid
2 - He has made a profession out of paranoia
3 - all of the above.
Again, you didn't double check to see if his METC bomb is real. No corroborating evidence has been shown.
'professional paranoid' is a name he choose to say
1 - A medical professional found him to be medically paranoid
2 - He has made a profession out of paranoia
3 - all of the above.
Again, you didn't double check to see if his METC bomb is real. No corroborating evidence has been shown.
by adou-disinfo, by one of the Schneiby crew, Disinfomationist A, Disinformationist B
http://www.whale.to/m/disin.html
Oh the irony continues...
Bush's Grandfather must have been a real A$$hole, since here is his son, Bush's father, Lt George Bush, prior to being SHOT DOWN while dive bombing a Japanese carrier. Note: Japan and Germany were on the same side in the war.

Arthur
You will go to any extent to distort the truth. Even The Guardian admits it is true:
How Bush's grandfather helped Hitler's rise to power
Rumours of a link between the US first family and the Nazi war machine have circulated for decades. Now the Guardian can reveal how repercussions of events that culminated in action under the Trading with the Enemy Act are still being felt by today's president
Ben Aris in Berlin and Duncan Campbell in Washington
Saturday September 25, 2004
The Guardian
George Bush's grandfather, the late US senator Prescott Bush, was a director and shareholder of companies that profited from their involvement with the financial backers of Nazi Germany.
The Guardian has obtained confirmation from newly discovered files in the US National Archives that a firm of which Prescott Bush was a director was involved with the financial architects of Nazism.
His business dealings, which continued until his company's assets were seized in 1942 under the Trading with the Enemy Act, has led more than 60 years later to a civil action for damages being brought in Germany against the Bush family by two former slave labourers at Auschwitz and to a hum of pre-election controversy.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1312540,00.html
EVEN THE GUARDIAN ADMITS ITS TRUE.
From the article:
There was nothing illegal in doing business with the Thyssens throughout the 1930s and many of America's best-known business names invested heavily in the German economic recovery.
One of the first jobs Walker gave Bush was to manage UBC. Bush was a founding member of the bank and the incorporation documents, which list him as one of seven directors, show he owned one share in UBC worth $125.
UBC was maintained intact and eventually returned to the American shareholders after the war.
The Anti-Defamation League in the US is supportive of Prescott Bush and the Bush family. In a statement last year they said that "rumours about the alleged Nazi 'ties' of the late Prescott Bush ... have circulated widely through the internet in recent years. These charges are untenable and politically motivated ... Prescott Bush was neither a Nazi nor a Nazi sympathiser."
Arthur
QUOTE
See Rule # 4 ---
You'll have to address that to the person on your side of the fence who brought up the MAXXUM article. They said you have to believe in "shape shifting Reptilian Overlords". Not Adou
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| See Rule # 4 --- |
You'll have to address that to the person on your side of the fence who brought up the MAXXUM article. They said you have to believe in "shape shifting Reptilian Overlords". Not Adou
Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation
Interesting how you have that in your favorites.
QUOTE
All the squibs occured before the collapse of the particular section of the building which was being weakened by these initial explosions, thus allowing for removal of resistance from the intact lower structure of the building to allow the collapse to continue unabated - the magical (and previously un-heard of) Global Disproportionate Progressive Collapse.
-Why can't you find a photo of a squib before the collapse *Crickets*
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| All the squibs occured before the collapse of the particular section of the building which was being weakened by these initial explosions, thus allowing for removal of resistance from the intact lower structure of the building to allow the collapse to continue unabated - the magical (and previously un-heard of) Global Disproportionate Progressive Collapse. |
-Why can't you find a photo of a squib before the collapse *Crickets*
While this is a sophist statement (sounding plausible without having any real basis in fact) --- the CTers have provided absolutely no evidence to support this sophistry.
Yes, I'm relying on peoples common sense. Or maybe you can explain to the people how bombs blow up slowly then grow progressively stronger... HUM?
QUOTE
Where is the evidence of other collapsing buildings which demonstrate this alleged 'piston effect'?
Show me a photo of a similarly constructed building collapsing from the top on it's own and I'll show you the effect.
But since you or I can't, the next best way to test this would be with a controlled experiment.
Like a two year old again...
-Get a half gallon milk carton (Remove the milk) and cut the bottom of it square to represent the floor.
-Keep the carton upsidedown. Now push the square bottom through the carton. Note how the air is forced to the opening below.
Now imagine the bottom of the carton was concrete and steel floors with office furniture on it. Imagine you had 110 of these floors stacked in the tower with windows and vents. Where is the air going to go? Where is all the concrete and office furniture going to go? It's going to go everywhere it can go. Through the windows, elevator shafts staircases... EVERYWHERE.
Now if you can't use understand this concept any 2 year old can then I don't know what else to tell you... People are smart enough to know this. Calling it "sophistry" isn't going to change that fact. No "magic 'sentient' abilities" needed. Just simple common sense.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Where is the evidence of other collapsing buildings which demonstrate this alleged 'piston effect'? |
Show me a photo of a similarly constructed building collapsing from the top on it's own and I'll show you the effect.
But since you or I can't, the next best way to test this would be with a controlled experiment.
Like a two year old again...
-Get a half gallon milk carton (Remove the milk) and cut the bottom of it square to represent the floor.
-Keep the carton upsidedown. Now push the square bottom through the carton. Note how the air is forced to the opening below.
Now imagine the bottom of the carton was concrete and steel floors with office furniture on it. Imagine you had 110 of these floors stacked in the tower with windows and vents. Where is the air going to go? Where is all the concrete and office furniture going to go? It's going to go everywhere it can go. Through the windows, elevator shafts staircases... EVERYWHERE.
Now if you can't use understand this concept any 2 year old can then I don't know what else to tell you... People are smart enough to know this. Calling it "sophistry" isn't going to change that fact. No "magic 'sentient' abilities" needed. Just simple common sense.
The "MIB construction crew theory" is equal to the "Space Aliens teleported Lasers into the core theory" Both have ZERO evidence to back them up.
That was in responce to this...
QUOTE
"Official" jet fuel drip theory, a pre-emptive distraction from the actual application of fuel-air blasts?
I'm glade to see you don't aprove of your own disinfo tactic of appeals to the straw-man. See rules # 4 & # 10.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| "Official" jet fuel drip theory, a pre-emptive distraction from the actual application of fuel-air blasts? |
I'm glade to see you don't aprove of your own disinfo tactic of appeals to the straw-man. See rules # 4 & # 10.
Exactly true... once the psyopts began to finger the 'usual suspects', the conspiracy theorists all jumped on the bandwagon that the ex-cia agent and his hedonistic muslim agents had committed the act.
Subsequently being too lazy to actually check the facts.
Had they done so, they would have discovered that the officially-promoted conspiracy theory holds no water at all, and in fact (although initially the gov't promised to 'prove' the allegations of such a conspiracy), have failed to offer one shred of forensic evidence to support such. This conspiracy theory has now entered the land of myths & legends, but many have been brainwashed to believe the legend.
As can be seen in this (and most threads related to 9/11).. the disinformationists avoid even attempting to support the official tale with facts & figures, such as evidence from the flight manifests that 19 evil muslims even boarded the planes in question.
The odd time they will throw in references to false and faked 'confessions' from tapes that the majority of western scholars have clearly labelled as 'fake'.
But apart from that, really waste no time at all in trying to defend & promote the official version of events, choosing rather to avoid such in favour of attacks on any alternatives put forth to challenge the fairy tale they promote.
If YOU did some double checking you would have seen Osama was the perfect man to pull this off...
"A few Arabs in the desert could not have pulled this off..."
They say a few people in the desert couldn't have carried out the 9/11 attacks. Never mind how raciest it is to suggest 20 or so Arabs aren't smart enough to fly planes and keep a secret... The fact is the leader of this plot is the perfect one to carry it out. America thought him smart enough to hold back Russia. But what makes him especially perfect for the attacks is his education and family back ground. His father was the biggest Saudi Arabian construction contractor and Osama himself earned a degree in civil engineering from King Abdul Aziz University in Jeddah in 1979. Why wouldn't he be the perfect person to pull this off...
http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/osama.htm
QUOTE
'professional paranoid' is a site by H. Michael Sweeney --- look him up.
'professional paranoid' is a name he choose to say
1 - A medical professional found him to be medically paranoid
2 - He has made a profession out of paranoia
3 - all of the above.
Again, you didn't double check to see if his METC bomb is real. No corroborating evidence has been shown.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| 'professional paranoid' is a site by H. Michael Sweeney --- look him up. |
'professional paranoid' is a name he choose to say
1 - A medical professional found him to be medically paranoid
2 - He has made a profession out of paranoia
3 - all of the above.
Again, you didn't double check to see if his METC bomb is real. No corroborating evidence has been shown.
by adou-disinfo, by one of the Schneiby crew, Disinfomationist A, Disinformationist B
QUOTE
5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the primary 'attack the messenger' ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach. Associate opponents with unpopular titles such as 'kooks', 'right-wing', 'liberal', 'left-wing', 'terrorists', 'conspiracy buffs', 'radicals', 'militia', 'racists', 'religious fanatics', 'sexual deviates', and so forth. This makes others shrink from support out of fear of gaining the same label, and you avoid dealing with issues.
http://www.whale.to/m/disin.html
Oh the irony continues...
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 21 2006, 07:20 PM)
The thermite reaction...
http://media.putfile.com/thermitef
Patent # 6766744 seems to describe the housing technology related to METC type incendiaries...(although the device desribed below is related to thermite incendiary bombs as opposed to the METC thermobaric device - the descriptions given of the housing and dispersal mechanism seems quite similar to METC technology. To say that Thermobaric Bombs do NOT exist is nonsense. They have been used extensively in Iraq, and the technology is well documented. One thing the CT's ignore when mentioning thermobaric weapons (in relation to the WTC)... is that these are sophisticated systems dependant upon precise mixture,dispersal, and timing regimes.
To suggest that such bombs can just accidentally create themselves outside of controlled conditions is pure 'horse-pucky'.
http://www.dodtechmatch.com/DOD/Patent/Pat...d=6766744&HL=ON
OR you can find it at the US Patent Office...
http://www.uspto.gov/
Incendiary Device...
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?...4&RS=PN/6766744
Patent # 6766744 seems to describe the housing technology related to METC type incendiaries...(although the device desribed below is related to thermite incendiary bombs as opposed to the METC thermobaric device - the descriptions given of the housing and dispersal mechanism seems quite similar to METC technology. To say that Thermobaric Bombs do NOT exist is nonsense. They have been used extensively in Iraq, and the technology is well documented. One thing the CT's ignore when mentioning thermobaric weapons (in relation to the WTC)... is that these are sophisticated systems dependant upon precise mixture,dispersal, and timing regimes.
To suggest that such bombs can just accidentally create themselves outside of controlled conditions is pure 'horse-pucky'.
http://www.dodtechmatch.com/DOD/Patent/Pat...d=6766744&HL=ON
OR you can find it at the US Patent Office...
http://www.uspto.gov/
Incendiary Device...
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?...4&RS=PN/6766744
although the device desribed below is related to thermite incendiary bombs as opposed to the METC thermobaric device
I asked for the METC bomb. Not one in the thermite family. I'll take it you're trying to misinform the public by conflating the METC fantacy bomb with thermite bombs.
Any more disinfo tactics?
http://media.putfile.com/thermitef
QUOTE
by disinformationist B
Does anyone have a reliable source for this 'METC bomb' or is this just more CT nonsense?
Does anyone have a reliable source for this 'METC bomb' or is this just more CT nonsense?
Patent # 6766744 seems to describe the housing technology related to METC type incendiaries...(although the device desribed below is related to thermite incendiary bombs as opposed to the METC thermobaric device - the descriptions given of the housing and dispersal mechanism seems quite similar to METC technology. To say that Thermobaric Bombs do NOT exist is nonsense. They have been used extensively in Iraq, and the technology is well documented. One thing the CT's ignore when mentioning thermobaric weapons (in relation to the WTC)... is that these are sophisticated systems dependant upon precise mixture,dispersal, and timing regimes.
To suggest that such bombs can just accidentally create themselves outside of controlled conditions is pure 'horse-pucky'.
http://www.dodtechmatch.com/DOD/Patent/Pat...d=6766744&HL=ON
OR you can find it at the US Patent Office...
http://www.uspto.gov/
Incendiary Device...
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?...4&RS=PN/6766744
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| by disinformationist B Does anyone have a reliable source for this 'METC bomb' or is this just more CT nonsense? |
Patent # 6766744 seems to describe the housing technology related to METC type incendiaries...(although the device desribed below is related to thermite incendiary bombs as opposed to the METC thermobaric device - the descriptions given of the housing and dispersal mechanism seems quite similar to METC technology. To say that Thermobaric Bombs do NOT exist is nonsense. They have been used extensively in Iraq, and the technology is well documented. One thing the CT's ignore when mentioning thermobaric weapons (in relation to the WTC)... is that these are sophisticated systems dependant upon precise mixture,dispersal, and timing regimes.
To suggest that such bombs can just accidentally create themselves outside of controlled conditions is pure 'horse-pucky'.
http://www.dodtechmatch.com/DOD/Patent/Pat...d=6766744&HL=ON
OR you can find it at the US Patent Office...
http://www.uspto.gov/
Incendiary Device...
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?...4&RS=PN/6766744
although the device desribed below is related to thermite incendiary bombs as opposed to the METC thermobaric device
I asked for the METC bomb. Not one in the thermite family. I'll take it you're trying to misinform the public by conflating the METC fantacy bomb with thermite bombs.
Any more disinfo tactics?
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 21 2006, 04:48 PM)
Makes finding a passport not that unusual?
It is a big leap for me to go from paper in the buildings survived to paper in the planes survived. I will have to continue saying that finding a passport is not only unlikely, but ridiculously so. However, it is not much to hang a theory on one way or the other. What it tells me, though, is that I will have to continue being amazed that there does not seem to be any aspect of the official theory that the official CT crowd finds questionable or unlikely.
QUOTE
A tremendous amount of paper was scattered across the site as well—files, notes, pages from desk calendars, photographs, unopened mail, legal documents and myriad other papers common to an office environment. Papers and dust even blanketed a small cemetery located directly across the street from the site. There were also shoes of all types, styles and sizes scattered everywhere.
It is a big leap for me to go from paper in the buildings survived to paper in the planes survived. I will have to continue saying that finding a passport is not only unlikely, but ridiculously so. However, it is not much to hang a theory on one way or the other. What it tells me, though, is that I will have to continue being amazed that there does not seem to be any aspect of the official theory that the official CT crowd finds questionable or unlikely.
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 21 2006, 04:48 PM)
Interesting article:
http://www.asse.org/groundzero1.htm
•3,600 pounds of lead acid batteries, used for backup power, were located on various floors of the collapsed towers. Final status: No batteries were ever found; presumed destroyed.
How many streams or pools of melted metal can you make with almost 2 tons of lead?
Since it melts at only 621 F.
This is from the ones they KNEW about. How many of the PCs in the building had backup power supplies which also use sealed lead acid batteries?
Arthur
http://www.asse.org/groundzero1.htm
•3,600 pounds of lead acid batteries, used for backup power, were located on various floors of the collapsed towers. Final status: No batteries were ever found; presumed destroyed.
How many streams or pools of melted metal can you make with almost 2 tons of lead?
Since it melts at only 621 F.
This is from the ones they KNEW about. How many of the PCs in the building had backup power supplies which also use sealed lead acid batteries?
Arthur
QUOTE (Lon Waters+Feb 21 2006, 04:44 PM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 21 2006, 04:48 PM)
Makes finding a passport not that unusual?
It is a big leap for me to go from paper in the buildings survived to paper in the planes survived. I will have to continue saying that finding a passport is not only unlikely, but ridiculously so. However, it is not much to hang a theory on one way or the other. What it tells me, though, is that I will have to continue being amazed that there does not seem to be any aspect of the official theory that the official CT crowd finds questionable or unlikely.
Why?
We KNOW part of the plane went THROUGH the towers.
The passport would most likely been on Atta or inside a case, near the front of the plane.
All it would have had to happen is for the passport to be part of the material carried through the building.
If so it would have been in front of the fireball.
It was supposedly found by a person on the street shortly after the impact and turned into a policeman.
Pictures from the street scene taken immediately after the impact show pieces and parts strewn along the streets, including parts of people (covered up), office equipment, papers etc. So a lot got blown out of the towers and presumably some of that would have been originally from inside the plane.
Arthur
QUOTE
A tremendous amount of paper was scattered across the site as well—files, notes, pages from desk calendars, photographs, unopened mail, legal documents and myriad other papers common to an office environment. Papers and dust even blanketed a small cemetery located directly across the street from the site. There were also shoes of all types, styles and sizes scattered everywhere.
It is a big leap for me to go from paper in the buildings survived to paper in the planes survived. I will have to continue saying that finding a passport is not only unlikely, but ridiculously so. However, it is not much to hang a theory on one way or the other. What it tells me, though, is that I will have to continue being amazed that there does not seem to be any aspect of the official theory that the official CT crowd finds questionable or unlikely.
Why?
We KNOW part of the plane went THROUGH the towers.
The passport would most likely been on Atta or inside a case, near the front of the plane.
All it would have had to happen is for the passport to be part of the material carried through the building.
If so it would have been in front of the fireball.
It was supposedly found by a person on the street shortly after the impact and turned into a policeman.
Pictures from the street scene taken immediately after the impact show pieces and parts strewn along the streets, including parts of people (covered up), office equipment, papers etc. So a lot got blown out of the towers and presumably some of that would have been originally from inside the plane.
Arthur
QUOTE (Foxx+)
To say that Thermobaric Bombs do NOT exist is nonsense.
And NO ONE said thermobaric bombs didn't exist.
What I DID SAY is the METC bomb you linked to was nonsense.
Since it is made from materials which are either already oxidized or are oxidizers, the bomb, as described had no fuel, which is BACKWARDS from a TRUE thermobaric bomb.
Clearly the guy writing this wanted it to SOUND real, but then he provided a formula that couldn't POSSIBLY explode. The only danger was in being anywhere near the N2O4, since it is a ferocious oxidizer. Probably not a big issue as getting some N2O4 would be problematical.
Arthur
And NO ONE said thermobaric bombs didn't exist.
What I DID SAY is the METC bomb you linked to was nonsense.
Since it is made from materials which are either already oxidized or are oxidizers, the bomb, as described had no fuel, which is BACKWARDS from a TRUE thermobaric bomb.
Clearly the guy writing this wanted it to SOUND real, but then he provided a formula that couldn't POSSIBLY explode. The only danger was in being anywhere near the N2O4, since it is a ferocious oxidizer. Probably not a big issue as getting some N2O4 would be problematical.
Arthur
How long can 1,000 gallons of gasoline burn?
How long can it burn with office products?
How long can it burn with office supplies in an oxygen starved rubble pile?
How long can it burn with office supplies in an oxygen starved rubble pile which has "More than 30 crawler cranes (up to 1,000 ton in capacity), several dozen excavators, scores of backhoes and dozers, hundreds of trucks and many other types of equipment moved about the site at a hurried pace" above it?
Don't know, but we can be absolutely certain that it would not burn at a sufficiently high temperature, nor would there be a mechanism which concentrated and transported the widely dispersed energy contained in the debris piled fuel, to explain the temperatures which were observed on extracted steel pieces.
Gordon
How long can it burn with office products?
How long can it burn with office supplies in an oxygen starved rubble pile?
How long can it burn with office supplies in an oxygen starved rubble pile which has "More than 30 crawler cranes (up to 1,000 ton in capacity), several dozen excavators, scores of backhoes and dozers, hundreds of trucks and many other types of equipment moved about the site at a hurried pace" above it?
Don't know, but we can be absolutely certain that it would not burn at a sufficiently high temperature, nor would there be a mechanism which concentrated and transported the widely dispersed energy contained in the debris piled fuel, to explain the temperatures which were observed on extracted steel pieces.
Gordon
In a chaotic pile like that how can you: be absolutely certain that it would not burn at a sufficiently high temperature, nor would there be a mechanism which concentrated and transported the widely dispersed energy contained in the debris piled fuel, to explain the temperatures which were observed on extracted steel pieces.
?????
Your idea of what it takes to get to ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY and mine are obviously quite different.
You have no idea what is in the pile, how it is arranged, what amount of air supply its getting, how its insulated, how its vented, how it changes over time, and a dozen other parameters I can't even guess at, yet without knowing any of that you are absolutely certain of this physical constraint?????
Friggin Amazing.
Arthur
?????
Your idea of what it takes to get to ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY and mine are obviously quite different.
You have no idea what is in the pile, how it is arranged, what amount of air supply its getting, how its insulated, how its vented, how it changes over time, and a dozen other parameters I can't even guess at, yet without knowing any of that you are absolutely certain of this physical constraint?????
Friggin Amazing.
Arthur
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Feb 20 2006, 11:27 PM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 20 2006, 05:07 PM)
QUOTE (computer fogie+Feb 20 2006, 12:08 PM)
WOW. Could you show us any precedents for these things? Wild stories of underground self-sustaining blast furnaces, that use office bulding contents to generate yellow-hot temps, for weeks at a time? Can any of you guys show us why we should believe a word of this?
Anything at all? Show us when any of this has ever happened before? Please?
I've never read wilder speculation in the years since 9/11.
Friction caused the temps underground? Combustible material in the rubble burning at yellow-hot temperature? Can you PLEASE tell us what could have burned at that temp, REGARDLESS of how long it burned? PLEASE??? Structural beams acting as tubes to feed, but not vent heat from, these blast furnaces?
Similarly, everything you said about the "jet fuel down the elevator shafts" makes no sense.
A fuel-air mix AHEAD of a PRECEDING explosion? How does THAT happen?
You official-story "supporters" are getting more and more transparent. Arthur first tells us there is no evidence for yellow-hot temps (after he had seen a pic of it), then tries to convince us yellow-hot temps are within normal fire temperatures. 1000 C is a normal office fire temp? PROVE IT. Why do you disagree with the official government report, which says the steel in the WTC probably didn't even reach a temp over 650 C??? Where did you get this 1000 C story?
Arthur, you've already been exposed as a sleazy liar working for government-connected entities. You're done, son.
Calling me a "lying sack of ***", and pretending you aren't being proven wrong time after time in this forum, isn't changing anyones mind.
Lets see, in answer to LSoS's latest dump
There ARE no precedents because there has never been this large of a burning office debris, steel and aluminum pile in history, you know ANYTHING REMOTELY SIMILAR TO THE PILE BURNING AT THE WTC SITE.
However, large debris piles do catch on fire and are hard to put out.
http://www.bsa.ca.gov/pdfs/reports/2003-113.pdf
(See page 20 for picture of debris pile that took 30 days to put the fire out)
The fire dept guy describes it as a BRIGHT RED hot oven.
Thermite is not RED HOT, its WHITE HOT. The Fire guy wouldn't have mistaken a THERMITE FIRE for an OFFICE MATERIAL FIRE.
He catagorized it as 1,500 F, which is BRIGHT RED.
Which is ~750 to 800 C
Which is within the range of debris pile fires.
As to 1,000 C temps in office fires:
Per NIST final report (Sec 6.12.3 - pg 132)
It was expected, and soon confirmed that the fires could generate temperatures up to 1,100 d C.
Furthermore, the temp of steel in the hour the the towers burned is not a constraining factor on the temp of steel within the burning pile.
The only liar is you as I don't work for a "govt connected" entity.
Which just reinforces your "Sack O' Shiit" status.
Arthur
COMPUTER FOGIE: Hi there! Just briefly.......
(1) I mentioned that the huge thermal mass of the rubble pile was PREHEATED by the gravitational energy imparted in the collapse. I was referring to Schneibster’s calculations (yet to be refuted by counter-calculations rather than handwaving) that the energy available, even discounting the later office fuel ‘burn energy’, was, and I quote:
Despite repeated calculations showing that the energy released simply from the kinetic collapse is on the close order of a small nuclear weapon, without even mentioning the energy contents of the millions of tons of paper, wood, plastic, etc. that were on the floors and a large percentage of which would be in the rubble pile and heated to ignition point by the heat from the kinetic energy dissipated by the collapse.
This VAST ENERGY existed IN the pile’s THERMAL MASS even BEFORE the fires. Not only would this concentrated ‘collapse’ heat in the pile have STARTED fires in the pile, it would have made the fires HOTTER because the ‘fuel’ materials were VERY HOT ALREADY, just like in a fuel ‘pre-burning/pre-heating’ system used in industry and regenerative-cooling/heating liquid rocket systems.
(2) Moreover, as has been pointed out by CTers, the dust blanket ‘insulation’ would make any burning areas like ‘reverberative’ furnaces PRECISELY because the heat could not RADIATE away AT ALL, but was inevitably put into the surrounding thermal mass. And when one mentions ‘cooling’ due to VENTING due to air passages in the pile, both small and large (and especially all those broken box girders acting like channels and chimneys in some areas), one can’t have it BOTH WAYS. Meaning that if there was air movement sufficient to ‘cool’, then there MUST have been sufficient to FEED combustion reactions! And if the air supply/movement is constrained somewhat, then ALL that air would do is feed the fires but NOT cool them as there wasn’t enough OPEN draughts AIR MASS MOVEMENTS to absorb and transport such quantities of heat energy being produced by combustion supplied by only sufficient air to BURN VERY HOT in those spots where natural chimney-effects were likely to occur at random. Firemen will tell you that any fire involving enclosed spaces and ‘height’ will produce their OWN cyclonic-wind conditions in that ‘channel/space’.
So we have VAST PREHEAT ENERGY, PLUS, VENTED FIRES AND RANDOM ‘HOT SPOTS’ DUE TO FIRE-INDUCED HIGH-SPEED AIR FEED DRAUGHTS. Plus of course any HIGHER-TEMP Aluminium etc METAL combustion in spots (whether ‘thermitic’ or CO2/H2O fed combustion). PLUS the INSUFFICIENT venting for ‘cooling’, PLUS the EFFECTIVE INSULATION by both DUST BLANKET and HUGE THERMAL MASS of the pile structure.
What need is there for further explanations, particularly ‘exotic’ ones, when the ENERGY/PROCESSES present were AMPLE to produce what transpired.
(3) Now, about the ‘fuel-air’ down the shafts: What I and others have posited is now apparently supported by information presented by none other than FOXX himself. Note the bolded passages in the relevant partial quote:
Anything at all? Show us when any of this has ever happened before? Please?
I've never read wilder speculation in the years since 9/11.
Friction caused the temps underground? Combustible material in the rubble burning at yellow-hot temperature? Can you PLEASE tell us what could have burned at that temp, REGARDLESS of how long it burned? PLEASE??? Structural beams acting as tubes to feed, but not vent heat from, these blast furnaces?
Similarly, everything you said about the "jet fuel down the elevator shafts" makes no sense.
A fuel-air mix AHEAD of a PRECEDING explosion? How does THAT happen?
You official-story "supporters" are getting more and more transparent. Arthur first tells us there is no evidence for yellow-hot temps (after he had seen a pic of it), then tries to convince us yellow-hot temps are within normal fire temperatures. 1000 C is a normal office fire temp? PROVE IT. Why do you disagree with the official government report, which says the steel in the WTC probably didn't even reach a temp over 650 C??? Where did you get this 1000 C story?
Arthur, you've already been exposed as a sleazy liar working for government-connected entities. You're done, son.
Calling me a "lying sack of ***", and pretending you aren't being proven wrong time after time in this forum, isn't changing anyones mind.
Lets see, in answer to LSoS's latest dump
There ARE no precedents because there has never been this large of a burning office debris, steel and aluminum pile in history, you know ANYTHING REMOTELY SIMILAR TO THE PILE BURNING AT THE WTC SITE.
However, large debris piles do catch on fire and are hard to put out.
http://www.bsa.ca.gov/pdfs/reports/2003-113.pdf
(See page 20 for picture of debris pile that took 30 days to put the fire out)
The fire dept guy describes it as a BRIGHT RED hot oven.
Thermite is not RED HOT, its WHITE HOT. The Fire guy wouldn't have mistaken a THERMITE FIRE for an OFFICE MATERIAL FIRE.
He catagorized it as 1,500 F, which is BRIGHT RED.
Which is ~750 to 800 C
Which is within the range of debris pile fires.
As to 1,000 C temps in office fires:
Per NIST final report (Sec 6.12.3 - pg 132)
It was expected, and soon confirmed that the fires could generate temperatures up to 1,100 d C.
Furthermore, the temp of steel in the hour the the towers burned is not a constraining factor on the temp of steel within the burning pile.
The only liar is you as I don't work for a "govt connected" entity.
Which just reinforces your "Sack O' Shiit" status.
Arthur
COMPUTER FOGIE: Hi there! Just briefly.......
(1) I mentioned that the huge thermal mass of the rubble pile was PREHEATED by the gravitational energy imparted in the collapse. I was referring to Schneibster’s calculations (yet to be refuted by counter-calculations rather than handwaving) that the energy available, even discounting the later office fuel ‘burn energy’, was, and I quote:
QUOTE (Schneibster+)
Despite repeated calculations showing that the energy released simply from the kinetic collapse is on the close order of a small nuclear weapon, without even mentioning the energy contents of the millions of tons of paper, wood, plastic, etc. that were on the floors and a large percentage of which would be in the rubble pile and heated to ignition point by the heat from the kinetic energy dissipated by the collapse.
This VAST ENERGY existed IN the pile’s THERMAL MASS even BEFORE the fires. Not only would this concentrated ‘collapse’ heat in the pile have STARTED fires in the pile, it would have made the fires HOTTER because the ‘fuel’ materials were VERY HOT ALREADY, just like in a fuel ‘pre-burning/pre-heating’ system used in industry and regenerative-cooling/heating liquid rocket systems.
(2) Moreover, as has been pointed out by CTers, the dust blanket ‘insulation’ would make any burning areas like ‘reverberative’ furnaces PRECISELY because the heat could not RADIATE away AT ALL, but was inevitably put into the surrounding thermal mass. And when one mentions ‘cooling’ due to VENTING due to air passages in the pile, both small and large (and especially all those broken box girders acting like channels and chimneys in some areas), one can’t have it BOTH WAYS. Meaning that if there was air movement sufficient to ‘cool’, then there MUST have been sufficient to FEED combustion reactions! And if the air supply/movement is constrained somewhat, then ALL that air would do is feed the fires but NOT cool them as there wasn’t enough OPEN draughts AIR MASS MOVEMENTS to absorb and transport such quantities of heat energy being produced by combustion supplied by only sufficient air to BURN VERY HOT in those spots where natural chimney-effects were likely to occur at random. Firemen will tell you that any fire involving enclosed spaces and ‘height’ will produce their OWN cyclonic-wind conditions in that ‘channel/space’.
So we have VAST PREHEAT ENERGY, PLUS, VENTED FIRES AND RANDOM ‘HOT SPOTS’ DUE TO FIRE-INDUCED HIGH-SPEED AIR FEED DRAUGHTS. Plus of course any HIGHER-TEMP Aluminium etc METAL combustion in spots (whether ‘thermitic’ or CO2/H2O fed combustion). PLUS the INSUFFICIENT venting for ‘cooling’, PLUS the EFFECTIVE INSULATION by both DUST BLANKET and HUGE THERMAL MASS of the pile structure.
What need is there for further explanations, particularly ‘exotic’ ones, when the ENERGY/PROCESSES present were AMPLE to produce what transpired.
(3) Now, about the ‘fuel-air’ down the shafts: What I and others have posited is now apparently supported by information presented by none other than FOXX himself. Note the bolded passages in the relevant partial quote:
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 20 2006, 01:55 AM)
>
>
>
The chief difference in METC unit (Multiple Explosives Transitional Container) design over traditional explosive devices moves away from a densely packed explosive core towards a large volume of highly explosive but low-density mass in the form of a gaseous cloud. In the normal bomb all explosive energy comes from a tightly packed core and must drive outward against air pressure and objects it encounters. It rapidly bleeds off energy at the square of the distance as it accumulates a wall of pressure resistance and a mass of heavy debris, which it must continually regather and push along.
The new design starts as a small device but transforms itself through simple means from a dense-core technology to a much larger gaseous-cloud state. Igniting the explosive cloud at any peripheral or central point creates a chain-reaction-like and progressively growing explosive force. As the force of the explosion moves outward, it continues to ignite fresh explosive materials as encountered and gains momentum rather than loosing it. Further, because the gaseous cloud is efficiently mixed explosive materials combined with abundant free-air oxygen, ignition is far more complete and productive>
>
>
As you can see, Foxx AGREES that UNBURNT fuel can be ‘explosively’ dispersed and mixed with ambient air and THEN exploded MORE devastatingly and faster and further afield. Only in the 9/11 case, the fuel-air was provided and driven by a prior plane impact/explosion which drives unburnt and -air-mixed jet fuel down the shafts ahead of it JUST AS FOXX DESCRIBES IN HIS ‘WEAPONS’ method. The only difference is the 9/11 process produced the ‘weapons’ conditions by ACCIDENT (just like the natural OKLO reactors occurred by accident rather than design).
.
ANYHOW, the point is that MANY things came together in such chaotic events which would ON THEIR OWN not have excited suspicion. It is only because such devastating and widespread PROCESSES present in 9/11 MUST BY PROBABILITY have at some points/areas have produced MANY ‘accidental’ configurations of ENERGY FLOWS and MECHANICAL EVENTS that would surprise but NOT baffle anyone with sufficient grasp of ALL the things going on in such a VAST/MASSIVE event space. That’s why it is incumbent on those with ‘exotic’ “explanations” to prove where these surprising/uncommon confluence of otherwise separately-prosaic events/processes could not have ‘converged’ on that day as seen. I hope you can see that no outlandish liberties with physics/chemistry/logic/commonsense has been taken by me, CF. Because in the one aspect, there was sufficient PREHEAT energy to make the pile’s thermal mass HOT, and then the fires did the rest in that ‘reverberative furnace’ configuration (which your own friends agree was effectively ‘insulated’ and sufficiently ‘vented’. And in the other aspect, the fuel-air driven by prior explosion front DOWN/UP/along now-opened’ shafts is, as FOXX has shown, quite plausible when one considers that the plane acted as the 'device' and the shaft air acted as the ambient air for the 'unburnt' portion of the 'device's charge' to mix with! The overall EFFECT is just as Foxx describes, too. Ciao all.
RC.
.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>
The chief difference in METC unit (Multiple Explosives Transitional Container) design over traditional explosive devices moves away from a densely packed explosive core towards a large volume of highly explosive but low-density mass in the form of a gaseous cloud. In the normal bomb all explosive energy comes from a tightly packed core and must drive outward against air pressure and objects it encounters. It rapidly bleeds off energy at the square of the distance as it accumulates a wall of pressure resistance and a mass of heavy debris, which it must continually regather and push along.
The new design starts as a small device but transforms itself through simple means from a dense-core technology to a much larger gaseous-cloud state. Igniting the explosive cloud at any peripheral or central point creates a chain-reaction-like and progressively growing explosive force. As the force of the explosion moves outward, it continues to ignite fresh explosive materials as encountered and gains momentum rather than loosing it. Further, because the gaseous cloud is efficiently mixed explosive materials combined with abundant free-air oxygen, ignition is far more complete and productive>
>
>
As you can see, Foxx AGREES that UNBURNT fuel can be ‘explosively’ dispersed and mixed with ambient air and THEN exploded MORE devastatingly and faster and further afield. Only in the 9/11 case, the fuel-air was provided and driven by a prior plane impact/explosion which drives unburnt and -air-mixed jet fuel down the shafts ahead of it JUST AS FOXX DESCRIBES IN HIS ‘WEAPONS’ method. The only difference is the 9/11 process produced the ‘weapons’ conditions by ACCIDENT (just like the natural OKLO reactors occurred by accident rather than design).
.
ANYHOW, the point is that MANY things came together in such chaotic events which would ON THEIR OWN not have excited suspicion. It is only because such devastating and widespread PROCESSES present in 9/11 MUST BY PROBABILITY have at some points/areas have produced MANY ‘accidental’ configurations of ENERGY FLOWS and MECHANICAL EVENTS that would surprise but NOT baffle anyone with sufficient grasp of ALL the things going on in such a VAST/MASSIVE event space. That’s why it is incumbent on those with ‘exotic’ “explanations” to prove where these surprising/uncommon confluence of otherwise separately-prosaic events/processes could not have ‘converged’ on that day as seen. I hope you can see that no outlandish liberties with physics/chemistry/logic/commonsense has been taken by me, CF. Because in the one aspect, there was sufficient PREHEAT energy to make the pile’s thermal mass HOT, and then the fires did the rest in that ‘reverberative furnace’ configuration (which your own friends agree was effectively ‘insulated’ and sufficiently ‘vented’. And in the other aspect, the fuel-air driven by prior explosion front DOWN/UP/along now-opened’ shafts is, as FOXX has shown, quite plausible when one considers that the plane acted as the 'device' and the shaft air acted as the ambient air for the 'unburnt' portion of the 'device's charge' to mix with! The overall EFFECT is just as Foxx describes, too. Ciao all.
RC.
.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Feb 21 2006, 06:02 AM)
QUOTE (zoktoberfest+Feb 21 2006, 05:29 AM)
Speculation Central
Thermite has an indefinite shelf life.
WTC workers, spaying on fire insulation, could have been (unknowingly?) applying a look-a-like thermite coating.
Could thermite impregnated drywall, have been installed against CRITICAL sections of the core's super structure?
If aerosol nozzles were installed in the ceilings of the elevators shafts, could the dispensation of a thermo-baric mist, then have been ignited when it reached the bottom?
Thermo-baric heat blast, could have been used to ignite the Thermite.
"Official" jet fuel drip theory, a pre-emptive distraction from the actual application of fuel-air blasts?
Hi Zoktober!
As Foxx has recently provided a perfect description of what would have happened in the jet-fuel-in-air scenario down the shafts (see my previous two posts in reply to Computer Fogie), why go looking for exotic scenarios when all the 'elements' are there to satisfy OCCAM'S RAZOR?
Foxx described a 'device' which would initially explode and spread a lot of UNBURNT fuel into the surroundings to mix with air and THEN have that ignite as a consequence of the expanding explosion flame/shock front. JUST as happened on 9/11, where THERE the 'device' was a crashing/exploding plane full of fuel, much of which was dispersed and forced into the shaft to mix with air and then be ignited/exploded by the following blast front from the initial explosion on the impact floors.
No need to go looking. Foxx has just identified the explosive 'device' and 'system' that occurred NATURALLY by accident in the towers. And if you want proof that such 'unusual' things DO happen, just look up "OKLO natural reactors" to see that 'complicated' natural/accidental 'coincidences' are NOT IMPOSSIBLE by any means.
Cheers.
RC.
.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Another quote from he who needs a reality check.
The above described METC device which utilizes ...
Another quote from he who needs a reality check.
The above described METC device which utilizes ...
a liquid compound of aqueous ammonium nitrate. The core shaft containing the explosive is itself made up of a compressed and hardened compound of aluminum silicate and N2O4, which starts as a slurry prior to application of a high-pressure baking process. Except for the explosive charge protected from external forces within, these items are all safe from accidental detonation as relatively safe-to-handle materials.
...is nothing similar to the theoretical jet-fuel air explosion spoken of by 'quacks'.
Read again how the device actually works...
http://www.totse.com/en/bad_ideas/ka_fucking_boom/index.html
Be aware that you WILL come to the attention of the authorities by visiting the above site. (If you wish to not be caught visiting this site... I copied the text from The CIA's METC Explosives in my post here...)
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...indpost&p=65683
Otherwise the whole article on METC can be found here...
http://www.totse.com/en/bad_ideas/ka_fucki...om/ciametc.html
There is no way to make a similar explosive device from kerosene.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Hi Foxx!
That post to Zoctoberfest was a little tongue in cheek, of course; prompted by the irony that it was SCHNEIBSTER, ADOUCETTE, MYSELF and OTHERS who posited/described the 'hyperbaric' and 'fuel-air' principles on which such 'weapons' depend for their effects; and how those 'principles' and all the 'fuel-air' and 'dispersal' elements/mechanisms were present naturally/accidently in the towers once the planes impacted.
You will note that KEROSENE DOES BURN/EXPLODE (evidence the fireballs from the towers at impact). You will also note that the black smoke and 'flames' indicate that UNBURNT FUEL is being pushed outwards along with those fireballs, shooting out FAST because they are being 'channelled outwards' BETWEEN THE CONSTRAINING FLOORS; and that that unburnt fuel is STILL being consumed even as the fireballs expand into open air.
So OF COURSE much UNBURNT FUEL will be being driven likewise INTO and DOWN shafts, wherein they will LIKEWISE explode and expand as FIREBALLS CHANNELED DOWN AND THROUGHOUT any 'escape routes' to the open air MUCH FASTER (supersonically) because they are constrained much 'tighter' and for further distances before 'escaping' (like air flow gets FASTER if it is constrained in a tube than in between circumferentially open floor spaces as in the impact level explosions)...and of course doing MORE damage as they go because of that tighter/longer channeling constraint.
And as your OWN post confirms, an initial explosion in the fuel-laden device' (in this case the plane/jetfuel tanks) will DISPERSE AND ATOMISE the UNBURNT fuel portions into a FUEL-AIR MIX CLOUD WHICH WILL THEN ITSELF PROLONG THE 'INITIAL' EXPLOSION (in this case the initial 'dispersal mechanism' was the explosions on the impact levels).
And YOU CAN RESEARCH FOR YOURSELF that these 'fuel-air' weapons use PLAIN FUELS which when mixed with ambient air by 'initial explosion' dispersal, so why do you say that such fuel-air hyperbaric detonations/explosions could not have occurred in the towers with the kerosene jetfuel? All the 'elements' for such an accidental fuel-air explosion scenario were PRESENT. Moreover, the fact that THE EXACT SAME THING WAS HAPPENING with the fuel-air explosion GOING OUT THE WINDOWS AT THE IMPACT LEVELS would be a strong indication that it WAS indeed POSSIBLE and LIKELY that the same thing was happening ELSEWHERE UP/DOWN/ABOUT throughout the towers wherever similar 'escape channels' would be AUTOMATICALLY SOUGHT OUT by such highly pressurised and exploding jetfuel-air mix expanding through ANY 'path of least resistence' which was 'opened' by the plane impacts.
So, do you still maintain that jet fuel is EXPRESSLY UNSUITABLE for the ORIGINAL TYPES of fuel-air scenarios that we brought up initially (not your now-posited and unnecessary "METC" types, which are not relevant to the original hypothesis of the NON-CTers...even though the 'mechanism' is the same!...as I pointed out to Zoktober with tongue firmly in cheek! hehehe).
Cheers and Ciao, Foxx.
RC.
.
QUOTE adoucette Feb 21 2006, 11:30 PM
Knight-Ridder journalist Jennifer Lin, discussing Joe "Toolie" O'Toole, a Bronx firefighter who worked for many months on the rescue and clean-up efforts, wrote: "Underground fires raged for months. O'Toole remembers in February seeing a crane lift a steel beam vertically from deep within the catacombs of Ground Zero. 'It was dripping from the molten steel," he said'" (Lin, 2002).
Maybe, Arthur, when molten steel is pulled out months after the impact the official conspiracy theory loses credibility....
Thermite has an indefinite shelf life.
WTC workers, spaying on fire insulation, could have been (unknowingly?) applying a look-a-like thermite coating.
Could thermite impregnated drywall, have been installed against CRITICAL sections of the core's super structure?
If aerosol nozzles were installed in the ceilings of the elevators shafts, could the dispensation of a thermo-baric mist, then have been ignited when it reached the bottom?
Thermo-baric heat blast, could have been used to ignite the Thermite.
"Official" jet fuel drip theory, a pre-emptive distraction from the actual application of fuel-air blasts?
Hi Zoktober!
As Foxx has recently provided a perfect description of what would have happened in the jet-fuel-in-air scenario down the shafts (see my previous two posts in reply to Computer Fogie), why go looking for exotic scenarios when all the 'elements' are there to satisfy OCCAM'S RAZOR?
Foxx described a 'device' which would initially explode and spread a lot of UNBURNT fuel into the surroundings to mix with air and THEN have that ignite as a consequence of the expanding explosion flame/shock front. JUST as happened on 9/11, where THERE the 'device' was a crashing/exploding plane full of fuel, much of which was dispersed and forced into the shaft to mix with air and then be ignited/exploded by the following blast front from the initial explosion on the impact floors.
No need to go looking. Foxx has just identified the explosive 'device' and 'system' that occurred NATURALLY by accident in the towers. And if you want proof that such 'unusual' things DO happen, just look up "OKLO natural reactors" to see that 'complicated' natural/accidental 'coincidences' are NOT IMPOSSIBLE by any means.
Cheers.
RC.
.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 21 2006, 08:03 AM)
QUOTE
No need to go looking. Foxx has just identified the explosive 'device' and 'system' that occurred NATURALLY by accident in the towers.
Another quote from he who needs a reality check.
The above described METC device which utilizes ...
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| No need to go looking. Foxx has just identified the explosive 'device' and 'system' that occurred NATURALLY by accident in the towers. |
Another quote from he who needs a reality check.
The above described METC device which utilizes ...
a liquid compound of aqueous ammonium nitrate. The core shaft containing the explosive is itself made up of a compressed and hardened compound of aluminum silicate and N2O4, which starts as a slurry prior to application of a high-pressure baking process. Except for the explosive charge protected from external forces within, these items are all safe from accidental detonation as relatively safe-to-handle materials.
...is nothing similar to the theoretical jet-fuel air explosion spoken of by 'quacks'.
Read again how the device actually works...
http://www.totse.com/en/bad_ideas/ka_fucking_boom/index.html
Be aware that you WILL come to the attention of the authorities by visiting the above site. (If you wish to not be caught visiting this site... I copied the text from The CIA's METC Explosives in my post here...)
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...indpost&p=65683
Otherwise the whole article on METC can be found here...
http://www.totse.com/en/bad_ideas/ka_fucki...om/ciametc.html
There is no way to make a similar explosive device from kerosene.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Hi Foxx!
That post to Zoctoberfest was a little tongue in cheek, of course; prompted by the irony that it was SCHNEIBSTER, ADOUCETTE, MYSELF and OTHERS who posited/described the 'hyperbaric' and 'fuel-air' principles on which such 'weapons' depend for their effects; and how those 'principles' and all the 'fuel-air' and 'dispersal' elements/mechanisms were present naturally/accidently in the towers once the planes impacted.
You will note that KEROSENE DOES BURN/EXPLODE (evidence the fireballs from the towers at impact). You will also note that the black smoke and 'flames' indicate that UNBURNT FUEL is being pushed outwards along with those fireballs, shooting out FAST because they are being 'channelled outwards' BETWEEN THE CONSTRAINING FLOORS; and that that unburnt fuel is STILL being consumed even as the fireballs expand into open air.
So OF COURSE much UNBURNT FUEL will be being driven likewise INTO and DOWN shafts, wherein they will LIKEWISE explode and expand as FIREBALLS CHANNELED DOWN AND THROUGHOUT any 'escape routes' to the open air MUCH FASTER (supersonically) because they are constrained much 'tighter' and for further distances before 'escaping' (like air flow gets FASTER if it is constrained in a tube than in between circumferentially open floor spaces as in the impact level explosions)...and of course doing MORE damage as they go because of that tighter/longer channeling constraint.
And as your OWN post confirms, an initial explosion in the fuel-laden device' (in this case the plane/jetfuel tanks) will DISPERSE AND ATOMISE the UNBURNT fuel portions into a FUEL-AIR MIX CLOUD WHICH WILL THEN ITSELF PROLONG THE 'INITIAL' EXPLOSION (in this case the initial 'dispersal mechanism' was the explosions on the impact levels).
And YOU CAN RESEARCH FOR YOURSELF that these 'fuel-air' weapons use PLAIN FUELS which when mixed with ambient air by 'initial explosion' dispersal, so why do you say that such fuel-air hyperbaric detonations/explosions could not have occurred in the towers with the kerosene jetfuel? All the 'elements' for such an accidental fuel-air explosion scenario were PRESENT. Moreover, the fact that THE EXACT SAME THING WAS HAPPENING with the fuel-air explosion GOING OUT THE WINDOWS AT THE IMPACT LEVELS would be a strong indication that it WAS indeed POSSIBLE and LIKELY that the same thing was happening ELSEWHERE UP/DOWN/ABOUT throughout the towers wherever similar 'escape channels' would be AUTOMATICALLY SOUGHT OUT by such highly pressurised and exploding jetfuel-air mix expanding through ANY 'path of least resistence' which was 'opened' by the plane impacts.
So, do you still maintain that jet fuel is EXPRESSLY UNSUITABLE for the ORIGINAL TYPES of fuel-air scenarios that we brought up initially (not your now-posited and unnecessary "METC" types, which are not relevant to the original hypothesis of the NON-CTers...even though the 'mechanism' is the same!...as I pointed out to Zoktober with tongue firmly in cheek! hehehe).
Cheers and Ciao, Foxx.
RC.
.
RealityCheck,
Even though we seem to be on 2 opposite ends of the universe regarding what really happened on 9/11. Would you be willing to give a very brief opinion on little bush adamantly stating on national television that he would VETO ANY ATTEMPT BY CONGRESS TO BLOCK THE deal with the Arab Emirates?


You know the deal that gives control of 6 major US ports over to the same people that some say aided and abetted in the 9/11 terrorist act?

Do you think it's a bit odd, that little bush was so adamant in wanting to give control of those ports to a nation that we have been told over and over again helped the terrorists?


Just curious if you think those actions are a bit revealing, or if you think nothing of it.
Even though we seem to be on 2 opposite ends of the universe regarding what really happened on 9/11. Would you be willing to give a very brief opinion on little bush adamantly stating on national television that he would VETO ANY ATTEMPT BY CONGRESS TO BLOCK THE deal with the Arab Emirates?


You know the deal that gives control of 6 major US ports over to the same people that some say aided and abetted in the 9/11 terrorist act?

Do you think it's a bit odd, that little bush was so adamant in wanting to give control of those ports to a nation that we have been told over and over again helped the terrorists?


Just curious if you think those actions are a bit revealing, or if you think nothing of it.
Because if the steel is hotter than its surroundings it will lose heat to them and cool down. If the steel is colder the opposite will happen.
In order for the steel to heat up to over 1000 C by heat transported to it by and through its surroundings it must be colder than its surroundings.
The steel was clearly considerably hotter than its surroundings and thus these could not have been the source of its elevated temperatures.
Gordon.
In order for the steel to heat up to over 1000 C by heat transported to it by and through its surroundings it must be colder than its surroundings.
The steel was clearly considerably hotter than its surroundings and thus these could not have been the source of its elevated temperatures.
Gordon.
How about if the surroundings were on fire?
You know, like the guy on the fire dept described, "a roaring oven".
Arthur
You know, like the guy on the fire dept described, "a roaring oven".
Arthur
In a fireball you will find that the unburnt fuel is on the inside of the flame front not the outside. This is best explained by examining the availability of oxygen. Oxygen would be available at the outside surfaces of the fireball but oxygen within the flame front would be quickly used up in this fuel rich atmosphere.
Propogation would take place across a flame front as opposed to a blast front.
Gordon
Propogation would take place across a flame front as opposed to a blast front.
Gordon
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 21 2006, 11:48 AM)
...Thermal measurements taken by helicopter each day showed underground temperatures ranging from 400ºF to more than 2,800ºF...
WOW. 2800+ degrees F. Isn't it amazing that nobody can find anything to support the claim that ordinary fire caused this temperature? All I see so far is a bunch of wild baseless hypotheses.
Let's see something real. Some precedent for this amazing underground blast furnace theory. Something? Anything? Anybody?
WOW. 2800+ degrees F. Isn't it amazing that nobody can find anything to support the claim that ordinary fire caused this temperature? All I see so far is a bunch of wild baseless hypotheses.
Let's see something real. Some precedent for this amazing underground blast furnace theory. Something? Anything? Anybody?
How about if the surroundings were on fire?
You know, like the guy on the fire dept described, "a roaring oven".
Arthur
Did he or even could he differentiate between the sources of this heat? Was its primary source the steel or the surroundings?
Visual evidence would suggest that the steel showing temperatures of over 1000C when contrasted with the surroundings was making a considerable contribution to the effect which he felt.
Gordon
You know, like the guy on the fire dept described, "a roaring oven".
Arthur
Did he or even could he differentiate between the sources of this heat? Was its primary source the steel or the surroundings?
Visual evidence would suggest that the steel showing temperatures of over 1000C when contrasted with the surroundings was making a considerable contribution to the effect which he felt.
Gordon
SEPTEMBERGATE IS COMING
Did you know . . .
That while not one of the titanium-covered, "indestructible" flight recorders were found after Twin Towers collapsed, Mohammed Atta's passport was found unscathed blocks from Ground Zero?
That shortly after September 11, a special charter plane flew 11 members of Osama bin Laden's family from Boston's Logan Airport to Saudi Arabia?
That the bin Ladens, who were major investors in the Carlyle Group along with George H.W. Bush, sold their stake in the firm right after September 11?
That the FBI was told to back off their investigations of the bin Ladens and the Saudi royals after W. Bush became president?
That Osama bin Laden's brother-in-law, Saudi Sheikh Khalid bin Mahfouz, who has been a major benefactor of Al Qaeda, also had extensive business ties to George W. Bush dating back to the 1980's?
That Mahfouz helped bail out Bush's struggling oil company, Harken Energy, by arranging for Saudi billionaire Abdullah Bakhsh to buy 17% of Harken in 1987?
That despite multiple specific warnings of Al Qaeda hijacking jets and crashing them into the WTC, the White House, and the Pentagon, George Bush did nothing to bolster airport security or the defense of the nation's airspace?
That Osama bin Laden was once on the CIA payroll? [and still may be!]
That the CIA trained bin Laden and other Islamic fundamentalists to commit terrorist acts against the pro-Soviet Afghan government?
That the French magazine Le Figaro reported that bin Laden was visited by CIA agent Larry Mitchell while receiving kidney treatment in Dubai, United Arab Emirates in July 2001, and that bin Laden received lifesaving treatment from an American surgeon Dr. Callaway?
That the FBI knew the exact identities of the hijackers within 24 hours of the terrorist attacks?
That 7 of the 19 hijackers are still alive? That they were the victims of identity theft? [Telegraph of England]
That during the week before September 11, 4,744 put option contracts in United Airlines [bets by speculators that a stock will go down] were placed on The Chicago Board Options Exchange, versus 396 call options [bets that a stock will rise]?
That on September 10, 4,515 put options in American Airlines were purchased against only 748 call options?
That the investment firm used to buy most of these put options was Duetschebank, which until 1998 was headed by Buzzy Krongard, now executive director of the CIA?
That suspicious trading was also reported by The Chicago Board Options Exchange regarding Merrill Lynch and Morgan Stanley, two of the biggest World Trade Center tenants? [Merrill Lynch: 3,053 puts bought between Sept. 6-10--252 the week before]
That the CIA and Mossad monitor stock trading in real time using sophisticated software called Promis?
That on September 10, 2001, Amr Elgindy, a stock speculator currently facing insider trading, market manipulation, extortion and obstruction of justice charges, ordered his broker to liquidate his children's trust account because he feared a sudden crash on Wall Street?
That in May 2001, Elgindy was arrested in San Diego along with two FBI agents who allegedly used their FBI connections to provide Elgindy information on companies' financial status?
That during pretrial motions the prosecutors hinted that Elgindy had prior information about September 11?
That in 1992 Elgindy's mother won $30,000 in arbitration after alleging that he made unauthorized trades on her account, and that he became an FBI informant in 1995?
That on September 10, 2001, according to Newsweek, a group of leading Pentagon officials suddenly cancelled their travel plans for the following day due to security concerns?
That on September 11-12, 2001, almost a month before the first anthrax attacks, White House personnel were given Cipro, the anthrax antibiotic?
That hours after the attacks, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld gave orders to prepare for war against Iraq, not Afghanistan? "Sweep up everything. Related or not."
That it is standard FAA procedure to intercept any plane that has lost contact with ground control?
That on the morning of September 11, 2001, 113 minutes went by from the time that Flight 11 lost contact at 8:13 AM until Flight 93 crashed in Shanksville, Pennsylvania at 10:06 AM?
That it is the job of NORAD (North American Aerospace Defense Command) is to defend the skies of North America against any attack?
That for one hour and fifty three minutes the United States Air Force did not intercept any one of the four hijacked planes?
That an Israeli-owned company, ICTS, handled security at Logan International Airport in Boston, from which two of the Sept.11 hijacked planes departed?
That ICTS serviced every airport from which the 911 hijacked planes departed, including security?
That the federal commission investigating the Sept. 11 attacks has had to subpoena the Federal Aviation Authority for newly discovered tapes and radar records about the events of that morning, because the FAA failed to turn them over? [October 15, 2003 Newsweek article, Michael Isikoff, Mark Hosenball]
That 5 days before September 11, 2001, the FBI shut down a Texas-based Muslim-owned Web hosting company?
That this raid caused 500 Arab Muslim Web sites to crash, including Al-Jazeera?
That a month before, Muslim-haters Daniel Pipes and Steven Emerson urged Washington to close down Muslim Web sites in a Wall Street Journal column?
That Stratesec, Inc., the firm that provided security at the World Trade Center, Dulles International Airport and United Airlines between 1995 and 2001, was backed by a private Kuwait-American investment company with ties to George W. Bush's brother, Marvin? [The American Reporter, Jan. 20, 2003]
That George Bush has not revealed Stratesec's role in providing this security, and many of the public records revealing these relationships are not available to the public?
That according to Stratesec's current chief executive, Barry McCaniel, the company had an ongoing contract to provide security at the WTC "up to the day the buildings fell down"?
That instead of being investigated, Stratesec has benefited from a law backed by the White House that limits liability and national security protections from investigation?
That the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) was warned in 1998 that Al Qaeda was trying to "seek to hijack a commercial jet and slam it into a U.S. landmark"?
That the BushWhite House initially censored this information from the Sept. 11 commission report?
That FAA officials were warned that "two of the three airports used in the hijacking had suffered repeated security lapses"?
Robert Anton Wilson
Did you know . . .
That while not one of the titanium-covered, "indestructible" flight recorders were found after Twin Towers collapsed, Mohammed Atta's passport was found unscathed blocks from Ground Zero?
That shortly after September 11, a special charter plane flew 11 members of Osama bin Laden's family from Boston's Logan Airport to Saudi Arabia?
That the bin Ladens, who were major investors in the Carlyle Group along with George H.W. Bush, sold their stake in the firm right after September 11?
That the FBI was told to back off their investigations of the bin Ladens and the Saudi royals after W. Bush became president?
That Osama bin Laden's brother-in-law, Saudi Sheikh Khalid bin Mahfouz, who has been a major benefactor of Al Qaeda, also had extensive business ties to George W. Bush dating back to the 1980's?
That Mahfouz helped bail out Bush's struggling oil company, Harken Energy, by arranging for Saudi billionaire Abdullah Bakhsh to buy 17% of Harken in 1987?
That despite multiple specific warnings of Al Qaeda hijacking jets and crashing them into the WTC, the White House, and the Pentagon, George Bush did nothing to bolster airport security or the defense of the nation's airspace?
That Osama bin Laden was once on the CIA payroll? [and still may be!]
That the CIA trained bin Laden and other Islamic fundamentalists to commit terrorist acts against the pro-Soviet Afghan government?
That the French magazine Le Figaro reported that bin Laden was visited by CIA agent Larry Mitchell while receiving kidney treatment in Dubai, United Arab Emirates in July 2001, and that bin Laden received lifesaving treatment from an American surgeon Dr. Callaway?
That the FBI knew the exact identities of the hijackers within 24 hours of the terrorist attacks?
That 7 of the 19 hijackers are still alive? That they were the victims of identity theft? [Telegraph of England]
That during the week before September 11, 4,744 put option contracts in United Airlines [bets by speculators that a stock will go down] were placed on The Chicago Board Options Exchange, versus 396 call options [bets that a stock will rise]?
That on September 10, 4,515 put options in American Airlines were purchased against only 748 call options?
That the investment firm used to buy most of these put options was Duetschebank, which until 1998 was headed by Buzzy Krongard, now executive director of the CIA?
That suspicious trading was also reported by The Chicago Board Options Exchange regarding Merrill Lynch and Morgan Stanley, two of the biggest World Trade Center tenants? [Merrill Lynch: 3,053 puts bought between Sept. 6-10--252 the week before]
That the CIA and Mossad monitor stock trading in real time using sophisticated software called Promis?
That on September 10, 2001, Amr Elgindy, a stock speculator currently facing insider trading, market manipulation, extortion and obstruction of justice charges, ordered his broker to liquidate his children's trust account because he feared a sudden crash on Wall Street?
That in May 2001, Elgindy was arrested in San Diego along with two FBI agents who allegedly used their FBI connections to provide Elgindy information on companies' financial status?
That during pretrial motions the prosecutors hinted that Elgindy had prior information about September 11?
That in 1992 Elgindy's mother won $30,000 in arbitration after alleging that he made unauthorized trades on her account, and that he became an FBI informant in 1995?
That on September 10, 2001, according to Newsweek, a group of leading Pentagon officials suddenly cancelled their travel plans for the following day due to security concerns?
That on September 11-12, 2001, almost a month before the first anthrax attacks, White House personnel were given Cipro, the anthrax antibiotic?
That hours after the attacks, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld gave orders to prepare for war against Iraq, not Afghanistan? "Sweep up everything. Related or not."
That it is standard FAA procedure to intercept any plane that has lost contact with ground control?
That on the morning of September 11, 2001, 113 minutes went by from the time that Flight 11 lost contact at 8:13 AM until Flight 93 crashed in Shanksville, Pennsylvania at 10:06 AM?
That it is the job of NORAD (North American Aerospace Defense Command) is to defend the skies of North America against any attack?
That for one hour and fifty three minutes the United States Air Force did not intercept any one of the four hijacked planes?
That an Israeli-owned company, ICTS, handled security at Logan International Airport in Boston, from which two of the Sept.11 hijacked planes departed?
That ICTS serviced every airport from which the 911 hijacked planes departed, including security?
That the federal commission investigating the Sept. 11 attacks has had to subpoena the Federal Aviation Authority for newly discovered tapes and radar records about the events of that morning, because the FAA failed to turn them over? [October 15, 2003 Newsweek article, Michael Isikoff, Mark Hosenball]
That 5 days before September 11, 2001, the FBI shut down a Texas-based Muslim-owned Web hosting company?
That this raid caused 500 Arab Muslim Web sites to crash, including Al-Jazeera?
That a month before, Muslim-haters Daniel Pipes and Steven Emerson urged Washington to close down Muslim Web sites in a Wall Street Journal column?
That Stratesec, Inc., the firm that provided security at the World Trade Center, Dulles International Airport and United Airlines between 1995 and 2001, was backed by a private Kuwait-American investment company with ties to George W. Bush's brother, Marvin? [The American Reporter, Jan. 20, 2003]
That George Bush has not revealed Stratesec's role in providing this security, and many of the public records revealing these relationships are not available to the public?
That according to Stratesec's current chief executive, Barry McCaniel, the company had an ongoing contract to provide security at the WTC "up to the day the buildings fell down"?
That instead of being investigated, Stratesec has benefited from a law backed by the White House that limits liability and national security protections from investigation?
That the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) was warned in 1998 that Al Qaeda was trying to "seek to hijack a commercial jet and slam it into a U.S. landmark"?
That the BushWhite House initially censored this information from the Sept. 11 commission report?
That FAA officials were warned that "two of the three airports used in the hijacking had suffered repeated security lapses"?
QUOTE
"...I always try to formulate my sentences in terms of probability and often include the percentage of belief I give to an idea - about 0.0000001 % to the Virgin Birth of that kid from Nazareth, about 99.9% to the Second Law of Thermodynamics, somewhere between 2% and 98% for most other things.
"People who claim 100% certitude seem, in my view, a frantic crew of True Believers, trying to bulishit themselves even harder than they try to bulishit you and me. This applies especially to the kind of True Believers who call themselves Skeptics. I'm sure you can guess some of the gents I mean."
"People who claim 100% certitude seem, in my view, a frantic crew of True Believers, trying to bulishit themselves even harder than they try to bulishit you and me. This applies especially to the kind of True Believers who call themselves Skeptics. I'm sure you can guess some of the gents I mean."
Robert Anton Wilson
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 21 2006, 09:06 PM)
Why?
We KNOW part of the plane went THROUGH the towers.
The passport would most likely been on Atta or inside a case, near the front of the plane.
All it would have had to happen is for the passport to be part of the material carried through the building.
If so it would have been in front of the fireball.
It was supposedly found by a person on the street shortly after the impact and turned into a policeman.
Pictures from the street scene taken immediately after the impact show pieces and parts strewn along the streets, including parts of people (covered up), office equipment, papers etc. So a lot got blown out of the towers and presumably some of that would have been originally from inside the plane.
Arthur
After further review, I would be willing to reconsider my position on the passport if any of the following could be evidenced as having survived the planes: a boarding pass, a napkin, a seat back magazine, a peanut wrapper, or any of the many other pieces of paper that occupy an airliner in flight. A wallet containing the driver's license of someone on the passenger manifest would really cinch it for me. I suspect the body parts were were more likely from occupants of the building than occupants of the plane, but again if it could be shown to be otherwise....
We KNOW part of the plane went THROUGH the towers.
The passport would most likely been on Atta or inside a case, near the front of the plane.
All it would have had to happen is for the passport to be part of the material carried through the building.
If so it would have been in front of the fireball.
It was supposedly found by a person on the street shortly after the impact and turned into a policeman.
Pictures from the street scene taken immediately after the impact show pieces and parts strewn along the streets, including parts of people (covered up), office equipment, papers etc. So a lot got blown out of the towers and presumably some of that would have been originally from inside the plane.
Arthur
After further review, I would be willing to reconsider my position on the passport if any of the following could be evidenced as having survived the planes: a boarding pass, a napkin, a seat back magazine, a peanut wrapper, or any of the many other pieces of paper that occupy an airliner in flight. A wallet containing the driver's license of someone on the passenger manifest would really cinch it for me. I suspect the body parts were were more likely from occupants of the building than occupants of the plane, but again if it could be shown to be otherwise....
"It didn’t seem real… There are thousands of these steel beams that just fell like pickup sticks."
~ John Albanese, volunteer firefighter and amateur photographer
"What struck us – guys like Warren Jennings and myself, who have spent basically all our lives in the scrap business – we’d never seen steel this heavy, this huge, this massive. It was just unbelievable."
~ Michael Henderson (p. 93),
General Manager, Marine Terminals, Metal Management NE
To explain the unanticipated free-fall collapses of the twin towers at the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001, mainstream experts (also see The American Professional Constructor, October 2004, pp. 12–1Cool offer a three-stage argument: 1) an airplane impact weakened each structure, 2) an intense fire thermally weakened structural components that may have suffered damage to fireproofing materials, causing buckling failures, which, in turn, 3) allowed the upper floors to pancake onto the floors below.
Many will nod their head, OK, that does it and go back to watching the NBA finals or whatever, but I find this theory just about as satisfying as the fantastic conspiracy theory that "19 young Arabs acting at the behest of Islamist extremists headquartered in distant Afghanistan" caused 9/11. The government’s collapse theory is highly vulnerable on its own terms, but its blinkered narrowness and lack of breadth is the paramount defect unshared by its principal scientific rival – controlled demolition. Only professional demolition appears to account for the full range of facts associated with the collapses of WTC 1 (North Tower), WTC 2 (South Tower), and the much-overlooked collapse of the 47-story WTC building 7 at 5:21 pm on that fateful day.
The scientific controversy over the initial structural weakening has two parts: what caused the original tower damage and did that damage "severely" weaken the structures? Photos show a stable, motionless North Tower (WTC 1) after the damage suffered at 8:46 am and the South Tower after its 9:03 am impact. If we focus on the North Tower, close examination of photos reveals arguably "minor" rather than "severe" damage in the North Tower and its perimeter columns.
As many as 45 exterior columns between floors 94 and 98 on the northeast (impact) side of the North Tower were fractured – separated from each other – yet there is no direct evidence of "severe" structural weakening. None of the upper sections of the broken perimeter columns visibly sags or buckles toward its counterpart column below. We can infer this because of the aluminum covers on the columns: each seam uniformly aligns properly across the Tower, forming a horizontal "dashed line" in the façade from beveled end to end. Despite an impact hole, gaps in perimeter columns, and missing parts of floors 95–98 at the opening, the aluminum façade shows no evidence of vertical displacement in the columns, suggestive of little or no wider floor buckling at the perimeter.
The aluminum covers attached to the columns also aligned vertically after impact, that is, separated columns continued to visually remain "plumb" (true vertical), lining up top to bottom around the aperture, implying no perceptible horizontal displacement of the columns. Photographic evidence for the northeast side of the North Tower showed no wider secondary structural impact beyond the opening itself. Of course, there was smoke pouring out of the upper floors.
The fact that perimeter columns were not displaced suggests that the floors did not buckle or sag. Despite missing parts of floors 95–98, photos show no buckling or sag on other floors. If so, that boosts the likelihood that there was little damage to the core. Photos do not document what happened within the interior/core and no one was allowed to inspect and preserve relevant rubble before government authorities – primarily FEMA – had it quickly removed. Eyewitness testimony by those who escaped from inside the North Tower concerning core damage probably is unavailable.
Photos do not allow us to peer far into the interior of the building; in fact the hole is black, with no flames visible. We know that the structural core and its steel was incredibly strong (claimed 600% redundancy) making it unlikely that the core was "severely" damaged at impact. There were 47 core columns connected to each other by steel beams within an overall rectangular core floor area of approximately 87 feet x 137 feet (26.5 m x 41.8 m). Each column had a rectangular cross section of approximately 36" x 14" at the base (90 cm x 36 cm) with steel 4" thick all around (100 mm), tapering to ¼" (6 mm) thickness at the top. Each floor was also extremely strong (p. 26), a grid of steel, contrary to claims of a lightweight "truss" system.
Those who support the official account like Thomas Eagar (p. 14), professor of materials engineering and engineering systems at MIT, usually argue that the collapse must be explained by the heat from the fires because the loss of loading-bearing capacity from the holes in the Towers was too small. The transfer of load would have been within the capacity of the towers. Since steel used in buildings must be able to bear five times its normal load, Eagar points out, the steel in the towers could have collapsed only if heated to the point where it "lost 80 percent of its strength, " around 1,300oF. Eagar believes that this is what happened, though the fires did not appear to be extensive and intense enough, quickly billowing black smoke and relatively few flames.
While some experts claim that airliner impact severely weakened the entire structural system, evidence is lacking. The perimeters of floors 94–98 did not appear severely weakened, much less the entire structural system. The criminal code requires that crime scene evidence be saved for forensic analysis but FEMA had it destroyed before anyone could seriously investigate it. FEMA was in position to take command because it had arrived the day before the attacks at New York’s Pier 29 to conduct a war game exercise, "Tripod II," quite a coincidence. The authorities apparently considered the rubble quite valuable: New York City officials had every debris truck tracked on GPS and had one truck driver who took an unauthorized 1 ½ hour lunch fired.
The preliminary NIST Response claims that "the wall section above the impact zone moved downward" (pdf, p. 36) on WTC 1 but offers no evidence. It offers photographic evidence, however, for a "hanging floor slab" on the 82d floor of the South Tower at 9:55 a.m. This looks minor though because there is no sag on adjacent floors and the integrity of the structure looks very much intact. The fire looks weak too, yet the South Tower collapsed only four minutes later. This would be quite a puzzle without a demolition theory.
About a dozen of the fragmented ends of exterior columns in the North Tower hole were bent but the bends faced the "wrong way" because they pointed toward the outside of the Tower. This fact is troublesome for the official theory that a plane crash created the hole and subsequent explosion between floors 94 and 98. The laws of physics imply that a high-speed airplane with fuel-filled wings breaking through thin perimeter columns would deflect the shattered ends of the columns inward, if deflected in any direction, certainly not bend them outward toward the exterior.
A possible response would be that, well, yes, an airliner crash would bend a column inward rather than outward, if bent at all, but the subsequent force of a jet fuel blast would act in the opposite direction: any inward bends caused by plane impact would straighten toward vertical or even reverse the bent steel columns toward the exterior under blast pressure. However, such a proposed steel "reversal theory" (first bend inward by collision, then bend outward by explosion) suffers two major handicaps:
1.
No "inward-bending columns" were observed and it would be unlikely that each and every one would be reversed by subsequent explosion, and
2.
the hypothesis is ad hoc and lacks simplicity, both scientific negatives.
Occam’s razor would suggest that the outward bends in the perimeter columns were caused by explosions from inside the tower rather than bends caused by airliner impact from outside. Also supporting this theory is the fact that the uniformly neat ends of the blown perimeter columns are consistent with the linear shaped charges demolition experts use to slice steel as thick as 10 inches. The hypothesis of linear shaped charges also explains the perfectly formed crosses found in the rubble (crucifix-shaped fragments of core column structures), as well as the rather-neatly shorn steel everywhere.
The engineering establishment’s theory has further difficulties. It is well-known that the hole in the west wing of the Pentagon, less than 18-foot diameter, was too small to accommodate a Boeing 757, but the North Tower’s hole wasn’t big enough for a Boeing 767 either, the alleged widebody airliner used on AA Flight 11 (officially tail number N334AA, FAA-listed as "destroyed"). A Boeing 767 has a wingspan of 155’ 1" (47.6 m) yet the maximum distance across the hole in the North Tower was about 115 feet (35 m), a hole undersized by some 40 feet or 26 percent. "The last few feet at the tips of the wings did not even break through the exterior columns," comments Hufschmid (p. 27). But 20 feet on each wing? I’d call that a substantial difference, not "the last few feet," especially since aircraft impact holes tend to be three times the size of the aircraft, reflecting the fact that fuel-laden airliners flying into buildings send things smashing about in a big way. The small size of the holes in both towers casts doubt on the airliner-impact hypothesis and favors professional demolition again. There were no reports of plane parts, especially wings, shorn off in the collision and bounced to the ground on the northeast side of the tower, to my knowledge, though FEMA reported a few small pieces to the south at Church street (pp. 68–9) and atop WTC-5 to the east of WTC-1.
Adding to the suspicious nature of the small aperture in WTC 1 is that some vertical gaps in the columns on the left side of the northeast hole were so short, probably less than three feet (p. 105) high (p. 27). Not much of a jumbo jet could pass through such an opening, especially since a fuel-laden plane would not minimize its frontal area. The engines are a special problem because each engine is enormous and dense, consisting mainly of tempered steel and weighing 5–6 tons, depending upon model. No engine was recovered in the rubble yet no hydrocarbon fire could possibly vaporize it.
The hole in the North Tower also is suspicious because it did not even have a continuous opening at the perimeter, but instead contained substantial WTC material (p. 27) just left of center (pp. 62, 105). This material appears integral to that area, so it did not move much, suggesting minimal displacement and no clean penetration by a jumbo jet. These huge airliners weigh 82 tons empty and have a maximum takeoff weight of up to 193 tons.
In the case of the South Tower, an engine from UAL Flight 175 (tail number N612UA and FAA-registered as still valid!) has not been recovered despite the fact that the flight trajectory of the video plane implied that the right engine would miss the South Tower. Photos showing minor engine parts on the ground are unconvincing, to put it mildly. Perhaps independent jet engine experts (retired?) can testify to the contrary. Further contradicting the official account, the beveled edge of the southeast side of the south tower was completely intact upon initial impact. The government never produced a jet engine yet claimed it recovered the passport of alleged hijacker Satam al Suqami unharmed by a fiery crash and catastrophic collapse of the North Tower. The government has not produced voice (CVR) or flight data recorders (FDR) in the New York attack either, so-called black boxes, a fact unprecedented in the aviation history of major domestic crashes.
Adding to the problems of the official theory is the fact that photos of the North Tower hole show no evidence of a plane either. There is no recognizable wreckage or plane parts at the immediate crash site. While the issue probably takes us too far afield, the landing wheel assembly that allegedly flew out of the North Tower and was found several streets away could easily have been planted by FEMA or other government agents. I’ve never seen any objective analysis of this wheel assembly though it would be welcome. In fact, the government has failed to produce significant wreckage from any of the four alleged airliners that fateful day. The familiar photo of the Flight 93 crash site in Pennsylvania (The 9/11 Commission Report, Ch. 9) shows no fuselage, engine or anything recognizable as a plane, just a smoking hole in the ground. Photographers reportedly were not allowed near the hole. Neither the FBI nor the National Transportation Safety Board have investigated or produced any report on the alleged airliner crashes.
The WTC 1 and Pentagon holes were not alone in being too small. Photos show that the hole in WTC 2 also was too small to have been caused by the crash of a Boeing 767. In fact, the South Tower hole is substantially smaller than the North Tower hole.
The next question is whether the fires were hot enough to cause the WTC buildings to collapse. In defending the official account and its clones that try to explain the unprecedented collapses of three steel-framed skyscrapers without demolition, heat arguably is more important than structural impact. That’s obviously true for building WTC 7 because there was no alleged airplane impact.
First, no steel-framed skyscraper, even engulfed in flames hour after hour, had ever collapsed before. Suddenly, three stunning collapses occur within a few city blocks on the same day, two allegedly hit by aircraft, the third not. These extraordinary collapses after short-duration minor fires made it all the more important to preserve the evidence, mostly steel girders, to study what had happened. On fire intensity, consider this benchmark: A 1991 FEMA report on Philadelphia’s Meridian Plaza fire said that the fire was so energetic that "[b]eams and girders sagged and twisted," but "[d]espite this extraordinary exposure, the columns continued to support their loads without obvious damage" (quoted by Griffin, p. 15). Such an intense fire with consequent sagging and twisting steel beams bears no resemblance to what we observed at the WTC.
Second, severe structural damage to the WTC towers would have required fires that were not only large but growing throughout the buildings and burning for a considerable period of time. None of these conditions was present. "The lack of flames is an indication that the fires were small, and the dark smoke is an indication that the fires were suffocating," points out Hufschmid (p. 35). Eyewitnesses in the towers, as well as police and firefighters, reported (pp. 199–200) the same thing.
Third, the impact opening was 15 floors lower in the South Tower than in the North Tower, where core columns were thicker, so the South Tower fire had to produce more heat to raise the steel temperatures to soften up (thermally weaken) the steel columns. Yet its fires were considerably smaller and 30 minutes shorter in duration. The Tower collapsed after burning only 56 minutes. A prime candidate to explain why "the wrong tower fell first" is that the small dying fire in the South Tower forced the hand of the mass murderers who decided to trigger demolition earlier than planned in order to sustain the lie that fire caused the collapse. The North Tower stood for another 29 minutes and its core steel was thinner at its upper stories. The 1991 Meridian Plaza fire burned for 19 hours and the fire was so extreme that flames came from dozens of windows on many floors. It did not collapse.
Fourth, implicitly trying to explain away these difficulties, the current NIST investigation, conducted by "an extended investigation team of 236 people," makes "dislodged fireproofing" the key variable to explain the collapses. Supposedly, "the probable collapse sequence for the WTC towers are (sic) based on the behavior of thermally weakened structural components that had extensive damage to fireproofing or gypsum board fire protection induced by the debris field generated by aircraft impact" (p. 111). "Had fireproofing not been dislodged by debris field," this team of government-paid experts claims, "temperature rise of structural components would likely have been insufficient to induce global collapse" (p. 108). Perhaps acknowledging the lack of direct evidence for its conjectures, the NIST admits that "a full collapse of the WTC floor system would not occur even with a number of failed trusses or connections" and it "recognizes inherent uncertainties" (pp. 110 and 112). The NIST will have to boost its creativity to plausibly explain the WTC 7 collapse because it won’t have the benefit of tales of aircraft and debris fields.
Aside from specific defects in the fire collapse theory, a wide variety of facts undermine it:
* Photos show people walking around in the hole in the North Tower "where 10,000 gallons of jet fuel were supposedly burning. The women (p. 27) seem to (sic) looking down to the ground" (the NIST "Response" pdf, p. 62, also shows a similar photo of the same blond woman with light-colored slacks looking over the edge of the 94th floor).
* By the time the South Tower was hit, most of the North Tower’s flames had already vanished, burning for only 16 minutes.
* The fire did not grow over time, probably because it quickly ran out of fuel and was suffocating rather than the sprinkler system dousing the fires.
* FDNY fire fighters remain under a gag order (Rodriguezvs-1.Bush.pdf, p. 10) to not discuss the explosions they heard, felt and saw. FAA personnel are also under a 9/11 gag order.
* Even the 9/11 Commission (Kean-Zelikow) Report acknowledges that "none of the [fire] chiefs present believed that a total collapse of either tower was possible" (Ch. 9, p. 302). It shocked everyone that day, amateur and professional alike, although some firefighters realized that so-called secondary explosive devices were a risk.
Griffin (pp. 25–7) succinctly identifies the primary defects in the official account of the WTC collapses, and its sister theories. These problems were entirely ignored by The 9/11 Commission Report (2004), so the government appointees must have found it difficult to account for the following facts:
1. Fire had never before caused steel-frame buildings to collapse except for the three buildings on 9/11, nor has fire collapsed any steel high rise since 9/11.
2. The fires, especially in the South Tower and WTC-7, were small.
3. WTC-7 was unharmed by an airplane and had only minor fires on the seventh and twelfth floors of this 47-story steel building yet it collapsed in less than 10 seconds.
4. WTC-5 and WTC-6 had raging fires but did not collapse despite much thinner steel beams (pp. 68–9).
5. In a PBS documentary, Larry Silverstein, the WTC lease-holder, recalled talking to the fire department commander on 9/11 about WTC-7 and said, "…maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it," slang for demolish it.
6. FEMA, given the uninviting task of explaining the collapse of Building 7 with mention of demolition verboten admitted that the best it could come up with had "only a low probability of occurrence."
7. It’s difficult if not impossible for hydrocarbon fires like those fed by jet fuel (kerosene) to raise the temperature of steel close to melting.
Professional demolition, by contrast, can explain all of these facts and more. Demolition means placing explosives throughout a building, and detonating them in sequence to weaken "the structure so it collapses or folds in upon itself" (p. 44). In conventional demolitions gravity does most of the work, although it probably did a minority on 9/11, so heavily were the towers honeycombed with explosives.
1. Each WTC building collapse occurred at virtually free-fall speed (approximately 10 seconds or less).
2. Each building collapsed, for the most part, into its own footprint.
3. Virtually all the concrete (an estimated 100,000 tons in each tower) on every floor was pulverized into a very fine dust, a phenomenon that requires enormous energy and could not be caused by gravity alone ("…workers can’t even find concrete. ‘It’s all dust,’ [the official] said").
4. Dust exploded horizontally for a couple hundred feet, as did debris, at the beginning of each tower’s collapse.
5. Collapses were total, leaving none of the massive core columns sticking up hundreds of feet into the air.
6. Salvage experts were amazed at how small the debris stacks were.
7. The steel beams and columns came down in sections under 30 feet long and had no signs of "softening"; there was little left but shorn sections of steel and a few bits of concrete.
8. Photos and videos of the collapses all show "demolition waves," meaning "confluent rows of small explosions" along floors (blast sequences).
9. According to many witnesses, explosions occurred within the buildings.
10. Each collapse had detectable seismic vibrations suggestive of underground explosions, similar to the 2.3 earthquake magnitude from a demolition like the Seattle Kingdome (p. 108).
11. Each collapse produced molten steel identical to that generated by explosives, resulting in "hot spots" that persisted for months (the two hottest spots at WTC-2 and WTC-7 were approximately 1,350o F five days after being continuously flooded with water, a temperature high enough to melt aluminum (p. 70).
Controlled demolition would have required unimpeded access to the WTC, access to explosives, avoiding detection, and the expertise to orchestrate the deadly destruction from a nearby secure location. Such access before 9/11 likely depended on complicity by one or more WTC security companies. These companies focus on "access control" and as security specialist Wayne Black says, "When you have a security contract, you know the inner workings of everything." Stratesec, a now-defunct company that had security contracts at the World Trade Center and Dulles International Airport, should be investigated, among others, because of the strange coincidence that President Bush’s brother, Marvin P. Bush, and his cousin, Wirt D. Walker III, were principals in the company, with Walker acting as CEO from 1999 until January 2002 and Marvin reportedly in New York on 9/11. At least one report claims that a "power down" condition prevailed on September 8–9 (pdf, p. 45) at WTC to complete a "cabling upgrade," presenting an opportunity to plant explosives with low risk of detection.
A related point is that demolition companies go to considerable expense to wire steel-framed skyscrapers with explosives to produce safe implosions, and they would love to do it more cheaply by simply setting two small fires like those that (allegedly) caved in building 7. Apparently, the terrorist-inventors have kept this new technology secret.
Why would the killers destroy WTC-7, especially since a collapse would arouse suspicion in some quarters? A logical if unproven theory is that the perpetrators used Mayor Giuliani’s sealed OEM "bunker" on the 23d story of WTC-7 to conduct the twin tower implosions and then destroyed the building and evidence to cover up their crimes, just as a murderer might set his victim’s dwelling ablaze to cover up the crime (one in four fires is arson). Giuliani’s "undisclosed secret location" was perfect because it had been evacuated by 9:45 a.m. on 9/11, it enabled unmolested work, provided a ringside seat, was bullet- and bomb-resistant, had its own secure air and water supply, and could withstand winds of 160 mph, necessary protection from the wind blasts generated by collapsing skyscrapers.
There is special import in the fact of free-fall collapse (item one in the list immediately above), if only because everyone agrees that the towers fell at free-fall speed. This makes pancake collapse with one floor progressively falling onto the floor below an unattractive explanation. Progressive pancaking cannot happen at free-fall speed ("g" or 9.8 m/s2). Free-fall would require "pulling" or removing obstacles below before they could impede (slow) the acceleration of falling objects from above. Sequenced explosions, on the other hand, explain why the lower floors did not interfere with the progress of the falling objects above. The pancake theory fails this test.
If we put the murder of 2,749 innocent victims momentarily aside, the only unusual technical feature of the collapses of the twin towers was that the explosions began at the top, immediately followed by explosions from below. WTC-7, by contrast, was entirely conventional, imploding from bottom up.
It is hard to exaggerate the importance of a scientific debate over the cause(s) of the collapse of the twin towers and building 7. If the official wisdom on the collapses is wrong, as I believe it is, then policy based on such erroneous engineering analysis is not likely prove to be sound. Revised engineering and construction practices, for example, based on the belief that the twin towers collapsed through airplane damage and subsequent fires is premature, to say the least.
More importantly, momentous political and social consequences would follow if impartial observers concluded that professionals imploded the WTC. If demolition destroyed three steel skyscrapers at the World Trade Center on 9/11, then the case for an "inside job" and a government attack on America would be compelling. Meanwhile, the job of scientists, engineers and impartial researchers everywhere is to get the scientific and engineering analysis of 9/11 right, "though heaven should fall." Unfortunately, getting it right in today’s "security state" demands daring because explosives and structural experts have been intimidated in their analyses of the collapses of 9/11.
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~ John Albanese, volunteer firefighter and amateur photographer
"What struck us – guys like Warren Jennings and myself, who have spent basically all our lives in the scrap business – we’d never seen steel this heavy, this huge, this massive. It was just unbelievable."
~ Michael Henderson (p. 93),
General Manager, Marine Terminals, Metal Management NE
To explain the unanticipated free-fall collapses of the twin towers at the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001, mainstream experts (also see The American Professional Constructor, October 2004, pp. 12–1Cool offer a three-stage argument: 1) an airplane impact weakened each structure, 2) an intense fire thermally weakened structural components that may have suffered damage to fireproofing materials, causing buckling failures, which, in turn, 3) allowed the upper floors to pancake onto the floors below.
Many will nod their head, OK, that does it and go back to watching the NBA finals or whatever, but I find this theory just about as satisfying as the fantastic conspiracy theory that "19 young Arabs acting at the behest of Islamist extremists headquartered in distant Afghanistan" caused 9/11. The government’s collapse theory is highly vulnerable on its own terms, but its blinkered narrowness and lack of breadth is the paramount defect unshared by its principal scientific rival – controlled demolition. Only professional demolition appears to account for the full range of facts associated with the collapses of WTC 1 (North Tower), WTC 2 (South Tower), and the much-overlooked collapse of the 47-story WTC building 7 at 5:21 pm on that fateful day.
The scientific controversy over the initial structural weakening has two parts: what caused the original tower damage and did that damage "severely" weaken the structures? Photos show a stable, motionless North Tower (WTC 1) after the damage suffered at 8:46 am and the South Tower after its 9:03 am impact. If we focus on the North Tower, close examination of photos reveals arguably "minor" rather than "severe" damage in the North Tower and its perimeter columns.
As many as 45 exterior columns between floors 94 and 98 on the northeast (impact) side of the North Tower were fractured – separated from each other – yet there is no direct evidence of "severe" structural weakening. None of the upper sections of the broken perimeter columns visibly sags or buckles toward its counterpart column below. We can infer this because of the aluminum covers on the columns: each seam uniformly aligns properly across the Tower, forming a horizontal "dashed line" in the façade from beveled end to end. Despite an impact hole, gaps in perimeter columns, and missing parts of floors 95–98 at the opening, the aluminum façade shows no evidence of vertical displacement in the columns, suggestive of little or no wider floor buckling at the perimeter.
The aluminum covers attached to the columns also aligned vertically after impact, that is, separated columns continued to visually remain "plumb" (true vertical), lining up top to bottom around the aperture, implying no perceptible horizontal displacement of the columns. Photographic evidence for the northeast side of the North Tower showed no wider secondary structural impact beyond the opening itself. Of course, there was smoke pouring out of the upper floors.
The fact that perimeter columns were not displaced suggests that the floors did not buckle or sag. Despite missing parts of floors 95–98, photos show no buckling or sag on other floors. If so, that boosts the likelihood that there was little damage to the core. Photos do not document what happened within the interior/core and no one was allowed to inspect and preserve relevant rubble before government authorities – primarily FEMA – had it quickly removed. Eyewitness testimony by those who escaped from inside the North Tower concerning core damage probably is unavailable.
Photos do not allow us to peer far into the interior of the building; in fact the hole is black, with no flames visible. We know that the structural core and its steel was incredibly strong (claimed 600% redundancy) making it unlikely that the core was "severely" damaged at impact. There were 47 core columns connected to each other by steel beams within an overall rectangular core floor area of approximately 87 feet x 137 feet (26.5 m x 41.8 m). Each column had a rectangular cross section of approximately 36" x 14" at the base (90 cm x 36 cm) with steel 4" thick all around (100 mm), tapering to ¼" (6 mm) thickness at the top. Each floor was also extremely strong (p. 26), a grid of steel, contrary to claims of a lightweight "truss" system.
Those who support the official account like Thomas Eagar (p. 14), professor of materials engineering and engineering systems at MIT, usually argue that the collapse must be explained by the heat from the fires because the loss of loading-bearing capacity from the holes in the Towers was too small. The transfer of load would have been within the capacity of the towers. Since steel used in buildings must be able to bear five times its normal load, Eagar points out, the steel in the towers could have collapsed only if heated to the point where it "lost 80 percent of its strength, " around 1,300oF. Eagar believes that this is what happened, though the fires did not appear to be extensive and intense enough, quickly billowing black smoke and relatively few flames.
While some experts claim that airliner impact severely weakened the entire structural system, evidence is lacking. The perimeters of floors 94–98 did not appear severely weakened, much less the entire structural system. The criminal code requires that crime scene evidence be saved for forensic analysis but FEMA had it destroyed before anyone could seriously investigate it. FEMA was in position to take command because it had arrived the day before the attacks at New York’s Pier 29 to conduct a war game exercise, "Tripod II," quite a coincidence. The authorities apparently considered the rubble quite valuable: New York City officials had every debris truck tracked on GPS and had one truck driver who took an unauthorized 1 ½ hour lunch fired.
The preliminary NIST Response claims that "the wall section above the impact zone moved downward" (pdf, p. 36) on WTC 1 but offers no evidence. It offers photographic evidence, however, for a "hanging floor slab" on the 82d floor of the South Tower at 9:55 a.m. This looks minor though because there is no sag on adjacent floors and the integrity of the structure looks very much intact. The fire looks weak too, yet the South Tower collapsed only four minutes later. This would be quite a puzzle without a demolition theory.
About a dozen of the fragmented ends of exterior columns in the North Tower hole were bent but the bends faced the "wrong way" because they pointed toward the outside of the Tower. This fact is troublesome for the official theory that a plane crash created the hole and subsequent explosion between floors 94 and 98. The laws of physics imply that a high-speed airplane with fuel-filled wings breaking through thin perimeter columns would deflect the shattered ends of the columns inward, if deflected in any direction, certainly not bend them outward toward the exterior.
A possible response would be that, well, yes, an airliner crash would bend a column inward rather than outward, if bent at all, but the subsequent force of a jet fuel blast would act in the opposite direction: any inward bends caused by plane impact would straighten toward vertical or even reverse the bent steel columns toward the exterior under blast pressure. However, such a proposed steel "reversal theory" (first bend inward by collision, then bend outward by explosion) suffers two major handicaps:
1.
No "inward-bending columns" were observed and it would be unlikely that each and every one would be reversed by subsequent explosion, and
2.
the hypothesis is ad hoc and lacks simplicity, both scientific negatives.
Occam’s razor would suggest that the outward bends in the perimeter columns were caused by explosions from inside the tower rather than bends caused by airliner impact from outside. Also supporting this theory is the fact that the uniformly neat ends of the blown perimeter columns are consistent with the linear shaped charges demolition experts use to slice steel as thick as 10 inches. The hypothesis of linear shaped charges also explains the perfectly formed crosses found in the rubble (crucifix-shaped fragments of core column structures), as well as the rather-neatly shorn steel everywhere.
The engineering establishment’s theory has further difficulties. It is well-known that the hole in the west wing of the Pentagon, less than 18-foot diameter, was too small to accommodate a Boeing 757, but the North Tower’s hole wasn’t big enough for a Boeing 767 either, the alleged widebody airliner used on AA Flight 11 (officially tail number N334AA, FAA-listed as "destroyed"). A Boeing 767 has a wingspan of 155’ 1" (47.6 m) yet the maximum distance across the hole in the North Tower was about 115 feet (35 m), a hole undersized by some 40 feet or 26 percent. "The last few feet at the tips of the wings did not even break through the exterior columns," comments Hufschmid (p. 27). But 20 feet on each wing? I’d call that a substantial difference, not "the last few feet," especially since aircraft impact holes tend to be three times the size of the aircraft, reflecting the fact that fuel-laden airliners flying into buildings send things smashing about in a big way. The small size of the holes in both towers casts doubt on the airliner-impact hypothesis and favors professional demolition again. There were no reports of plane parts, especially wings, shorn off in the collision and bounced to the ground on the northeast side of the tower, to my knowledge, though FEMA reported a few small pieces to the south at Church street (pp. 68–9) and atop WTC-5 to the east of WTC-1.
Adding to the suspicious nature of the small aperture in WTC 1 is that some vertical gaps in the columns on the left side of the northeast hole were so short, probably less than three feet (p. 105) high (p. 27). Not much of a jumbo jet could pass through such an opening, especially since a fuel-laden plane would not minimize its frontal area. The engines are a special problem because each engine is enormous and dense, consisting mainly of tempered steel and weighing 5–6 tons, depending upon model. No engine was recovered in the rubble yet no hydrocarbon fire could possibly vaporize it.
The hole in the North Tower also is suspicious because it did not even have a continuous opening at the perimeter, but instead contained substantial WTC material (p. 27) just left of center (pp. 62, 105). This material appears integral to that area, so it did not move much, suggesting minimal displacement and no clean penetration by a jumbo jet. These huge airliners weigh 82 tons empty and have a maximum takeoff weight of up to 193 tons.
In the case of the South Tower, an engine from UAL Flight 175 (tail number N612UA and FAA-registered as still valid!) has not been recovered despite the fact that the flight trajectory of the video plane implied that the right engine would miss the South Tower. Photos showing minor engine parts on the ground are unconvincing, to put it mildly. Perhaps independent jet engine experts (retired?) can testify to the contrary. Further contradicting the official account, the beveled edge of the southeast side of the south tower was completely intact upon initial impact. The government never produced a jet engine yet claimed it recovered the passport of alleged hijacker Satam al Suqami unharmed by a fiery crash and catastrophic collapse of the North Tower. The government has not produced voice (CVR) or flight data recorders (FDR) in the New York attack either, so-called black boxes, a fact unprecedented in the aviation history of major domestic crashes.
Adding to the problems of the official theory is the fact that photos of the North Tower hole show no evidence of a plane either. There is no recognizable wreckage or plane parts at the immediate crash site. While the issue probably takes us too far afield, the landing wheel assembly that allegedly flew out of the North Tower and was found several streets away could easily have been planted by FEMA or other government agents. I’ve never seen any objective analysis of this wheel assembly though it would be welcome. In fact, the government has failed to produce significant wreckage from any of the four alleged airliners that fateful day. The familiar photo of the Flight 93 crash site in Pennsylvania (The 9/11 Commission Report, Ch. 9) shows no fuselage, engine or anything recognizable as a plane, just a smoking hole in the ground. Photographers reportedly were not allowed near the hole. Neither the FBI nor the National Transportation Safety Board have investigated or produced any report on the alleged airliner crashes.
The WTC 1 and Pentagon holes were not alone in being too small. Photos show that the hole in WTC 2 also was too small to have been caused by the crash of a Boeing 767. In fact, the South Tower hole is substantially smaller than the North Tower hole.
The next question is whether the fires were hot enough to cause the WTC buildings to collapse. In defending the official account and its clones that try to explain the unprecedented collapses of three steel-framed skyscrapers without demolition, heat arguably is more important than structural impact. That’s obviously true for building WTC 7 because there was no alleged airplane impact.
First, no steel-framed skyscraper, even engulfed in flames hour after hour, had ever collapsed before. Suddenly, three stunning collapses occur within a few city blocks on the same day, two allegedly hit by aircraft, the third not. These extraordinary collapses after short-duration minor fires made it all the more important to preserve the evidence, mostly steel girders, to study what had happened. On fire intensity, consider this benchmark: A 1991 FEMA report on Philadelphia’s Meridian Plaza fire said that the fire was so energetic that "[b]eams and girders sagged and twisted," but "[d]espite this extraordinary exposure, the columns continued to support their loads without obvious damage" (quoted by Griffin, p. 15). Such an intense fire with consequent sagging and twisting steel beams bears no resemblance to what we observed at the WTC.
Second, severe structural damage to the WTC towers would have required fires that were not only large but growing throughout the buildings and burning for a considerable period of time. None of these conditions was present. "The lack of flames is an indication that the fires were small, and the dark smoke is an indication that the fires were suffocating," points out Hufschmid (p. 35). Eyewitnesses in the towers, as well as police and firefighters, reported (pp. 199–200) the same thing.
Third, the impact opening was 15 floors lower in the South Tower than in the North Tower, where core columns were thicker, so the South Tower fire had to produce more heat to raise the steel temperatures to soften up (thermally weaken) the steel columns. Yet its fires were considerably smaller and 30 minutes shorter in duration. The Tower collapsed after burning only 56 minutes. A prime candidate to explain why "the wrong tower fell first" is that the small dying fire in the South Tower forced the hand of the mass murderers who decided to trigger demolition earlier than planned in order to sustain the lie that fire caused the collapse. The North Tower stood for another 29 minutes and its core steel was thinner at its upper stories. The 1991 Meridian Plaza fire burned for 19 hours and the fire was so extreme that flames came from dozens of windows on many floors. It did not collapse.
Fourth, implicitly trying to explain away these difficulties, the current NIST investigation, conducted by "an extended investigation team of 236 people," makes "dislodged fireproofing" the key variable to explain the collapses. Supposedly, "the probable collapse sequence for the WTC towers are (sic) based on the behavior of thermally weakened structural components that had extensive damage to fireproofing or gypsum board fire protection induced by the debris field generated by aircraft impact" (p. 111). "Had fireproofing not been dislodged by debris field," this team of government-paid experts claims, "temperature rise of structural components would likely have been insufficient to induce global collapse" (p. 108). Perhaps acknowledging the lack of direct evidence for its conjectures, the NIST admits that "a full collapse of the WTC floor system would not occur even with a number of failed trusses or connections" and it "recognizes inherent uncertainties" (pp. 110 and 112). The NIST will have to boost its creativity to plausibly explain the WTC 7 collapse because it won’t have the benefit of tales of aircraft and debris fields.
Aside from specific defects in the fire collapse theory, a wide variety of facts undermine it:
* Photos show people walking around in the hole in the North Tower "where 10,000 gallons of jet fuel were supposedly burning. The women (p. 27) seem to (sic) looking down to the ground" (the NIST "Response" pdf, p. 62, also shows a similar photo of the same blond woman with light-colored slacks looking over the edge of the 94th floor).
* By the time the South Tower was hit, most of the North Tower’s flames had already vanished, burning for only 16 minutes.
* The fire did not grow over time, probably because it quickly ran out of fuel and was suffocating rather than the sprinkler system dousing the fires.
* FDNY fire fighters remain under a gag order (Rodriguezvs-1.Bush.pdf, p. 10) to not discuss the explosions they heard, felt and saw. FAA personnel are also under a 9/11 gag order.
* Even the 9/11 Commission (Kean-Zelikow) Report acknowledges that "none of the [fire] chiefs present believed that a total collapse of either tower was possible" (Ch. 9, p. 302). It shocked everyone that day, amateur and professional alike, although some firefighters realized that so-called secondary explosive devices were a risk.
Griffin (pp. 25–7) succinctly identifies the primary defects in the official account of the WTC collapses, and its sister theories. These problems were entirely ignored by The 9/11 Commission Report (2004), so the government appointees must have found it difficult to account for the following facts:
1. Fire had never before caused steel-frame buildings to collapse except for the three buildings on 9/11, nor has fire collapsed any steel high rise since 9/11.
2. The fires, especially in the South Tower and WTC-7, were small.
3. WTC-7 was unharmed by an airplane and had only minor fires on the seventh and twelfth floors of this 47-story steel building yet it collapsed in less than 10 seconds.
4. WTC-5 and WTC-6 had raging fires but did not collapse despite much thinner steel beams (pp. 68–9).
5. In a PBS documentary, Larry Silverstein, the WTC lease-holder, recalled talking to the fire department commander on 9/11 about WTC-7 and said, "…maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it," slang for demolish it.
6. FEMA, given the uninviting task of explaining the collapse of Building 7 with mention of demolition verboten admitted that the best it could come up with had "only a low probability of occurrence."
7. It’s difficult if not impossible for hydrocarbon fires like those fed by jet fuel (kerosene) to raise the temperature of steel close to melting.
Professional demolition, by contrast, can explain all of these facts and more. Demolition means placing explosives throughout a building, and detonating them in sequence to weaken "the structure so it collapses or folds in upon itself" (p. 44). In conventional demolitions gravity does most of the work, although it probably did a minority on 9/11, so heavily were the towers honeycombed with explosives.
1. Each WTC building collapse occurred at virtually free-fall speed (approximately 10 seconds or less).
2. Each building collapsed, for the most part, into its own footprint.
3. Virtually all the concrete (an estimated 100,000 tons in each tower) on every floor was pulverized into a very fine dust, a phenomenon that requires enormous energy and could not be caused by gravity alone ("…workers can’t even find concrete. ‘It’s all dust,’ [the official] said").
4. Dust exploded horizontally for a couple hundred feet, as did debris, at the beginning of each tower’s collapse.
5. Collapses were total, leaving none of the massive core columns sticking up hundreds of feet into the air.
6. Salvage experts were amazed at how small the debris stacks were.
7. The steel beams and columns came down in sections under 30 feet long and had no signs of "softening"; there was little left but shorn sections of steel and a few bits of concrete.
8. Photos and videos of the collapses all show "demolition waves," meaning "confluent rows of small explosions" along floors (blast sequences).
9. According to many witnesses, explosions occurred within the buildings.
10. Each collapse had detectable seismic vibrations suggestive of underground explosions, similar to the 2.3 earthquake magnitude from a demolition like the Seattle Kingdome (p. 108).
11. Each collapse produced molten steel identical to that generated by explosives, resulting in "hot spots" that persisted for months (the two hottest spots at WTC-2 and WTC-7 were approximately 1,350o F five days after being continuously flooded with water, a temperature high enough to melt aluminum (p. 70).
Controlled demolition would have required unimpeded access to the WTC, access to explosives, avoiding detection, and the expertise to orchestrate the deadly destruction from a nearby secure location. Such access before 9/11 likely depended on complicity by one or more WTC security companies. These companies focus on "access control" and as security specialist Wayne Black says, "When you have a security contract, you know the inner workings of everything." Stratesec, a now-defunct company that had security contracts at the World Trade Center and Dulles International Airport, should be investigated, among others, because of the strange coincidence that President Bush’s brother, Marvin P. Bush, and his cousin, Wirt D. Walker III, were principals in the company, with Walker acting as CEO from 1999 until January 2002 and Marvin reportedly in New York on 9/11. At least one report claims that a "power down" condition prevailed on September 8–9 (pdf, p. 45) at WTC to complete a "cabling upgrade," presenting an opportunity to plant explosives with low risk of detection.
A related point is that demolition companies go to considerable expense to wire steel-framed skyscrapers with explosives to produce safe implosions, and they would love to do it more cheaply by simply setting two small fires like those that (allegedly) caved in building 7. Apparently, the terrorist-inventors have kept this new technology secret.
Why would the killers destroy WTC-7, especially since a collapse would arouse suspicion in some quarters? A logical if unproven theory is that the perpetrators used Mayor Giuliani’s sealed OEM "bunker" on the 23d story of WTC-7 to conduct the twin tower implosions and then destroyed the building and evidence to cover up their crimes, just as a murderer might set his victim’s dwelling ablaze to cover up the crime (one in four fires is arson). Giuliani’s "undisclosed secret location" was perfect because it had been evacuated by 9:45 a.m. on 9/11, it enabled unmolested work, provided a ringside seat, was bullet- and bomb-resistant, had its own secure air and water supply, and could withstand winds of 160 mph, necessary protection from the wind blasts generated by collapsing skyscrapers.
There is special import in the fact of free-fall collapse (item one in the list immediately above), if only because everyone agrees that the towers fell at free-fall speed. This makes pancake collapse with one floor progressively falling onto the floor below an unattractive explanation. Progressive pancaking cannot happen at free-fall speed ("g" or 9.8 m/s2). Free-fall would require "pulling" or removing obstacles below before they could impede (slow) the acceleration of falling objects from above. Sequenced explosions, on the other hand, explain why the lower floors did not interfere with the progress of the falling objects above. The pancake theory fails this test.
If we put the murder of 2,749 innocent victims momentarily aside, the only unusual technical feature of the collapses of the twin towers was that the explosions began at the top, immediately followed by explosions from below. WTC-7, by contrast, was entirely conventional, imploding from bottom up.
It is hard to exaggerate the importance of a scientific debate over the cause(s) of the collapse of the twin towers and building 7. If the official wisdom on the collapses is wrong, as I believe it is, then policy based on such erroneous engineering analysis is not likely prove to be sound. Revised engineering and construction practices, for example, based on the belief that the twin towers collapsed through airplane damage and subsequent fires is premature, to say the least.
More importantly, momentous political and social consequences would follow if impartial observers concluded that professionals imploded the WTC. If demolition destroyed three steel skyscrapers at the World Trade Center on 9/11, then the case for an "inside job" and a government attack on America would be compelling. Meanwhile, the job of scientists, engineers and impartial researchers everywhere is to get the scientific and engineering analysis of 9/11 right, "though heaven should fall." Unfortunately, getting it right in today’s "security state" demands daring because explosives and structural experts have been intimidated in their analyses of the collapses of 9/11.
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QUOTE (gordon+Feb 21 2006, 07:13 PM)
How about if the surroundings were on fire?
You know, like the guy on the fire dept described, "a roaring oven".
Arthur
Did he or even could he differentiate between the sources of this heat? Was its primary source the steel or the surroundings?
Visual evidence would suggest that the steel showing temperatures of over 1000C when contrasted with the surroundings was making a considerable contribution to the effect which he felt.
Gordon
Don't know, he doesn't say.
Which is where the "absolutely certain" issue comes into play.
What DO we know though?
There WERE 110 floors, of which about 100 were office space.
They had about 40,000 sq ft of usable space and they had ~ 4 lbs of burnable material per sq ft, but a lot didn't ever get burned so lets say 1 lb per sq ft. That's something on the order of 4 MILLION lbs of material that could burn in the pile.
Why do you think they WOULDN'T burn.
We already found out from the NIST tests that the temps when burning TYPICAL office material reached 1,100 C.
Clearly with all the STEEL FRAMEWORK within the debris pile there were OPEN CHANNELS for aeration within the pile, since MOST of the steel was in fact long OPEN TUBES (even if they had an intact closed end they had large openings for securing the bolts, see pictures).
So given all this, WHY is it so hard to believe that we could pull steel out of this burning debris pile that was somewhere between 850 and 1,000 C????
Arthur
You know, like the guy on the fire dept described, "a roaring oven".
Arthur
Did he or even could he differentiate between the sources of this heat? Was its primary source the steel or the surroundings?
Visual evidence would suggest that the steel showing temperatures of over 1000C when contrasted with the surroundings was making a considerable contribution to the effect which he felt.
Gordon
Don't know, he doesn't say.
Which is where the "absolutely certain" issue comes into play.
What DO we know though?
There WERE 110 floors, of which about 100 were office space.
They had about 40,000 sq ft of usable space and they had ~ 4 lbs of burnable material per sq ft, but a lot didn't ever get burned so lets say 1 lb per sq ft. That's something on the order of 4 MILLION lbs of material that could burn in the pile.
Why do you think they WOULDN'T burn.
We already found out from the NIST tests that the temps when burning TYPICAL office material reached 1,100 C.
Clearly with all the STEEL FRAMEWORK within the debris pile there were OPEN CHANNELS for aeration within the pile, since MOST of the steel was in fact long OPEN TUBES (even if they had an intact closed end they had large openings for securing the bolts, see pictures).
So given all this, WHY is it so hard to believe that we could pull steel out of this burning debris pile that was somewhere between 850 and 1,000 C????
Arthur
QUOTE adoucette Feb 21 2006, 11:30 PM
QUOTE
So given all this, WHY is it so hard to believe that we could pull steel out of this burning debris pile that was somewhere between 850 and 1,000 C????
Knight-Ridder journalist Jennifer Lin, discussing Joe "Toolie" O'Toole, a Bronx firefighter who worked for many months on the rescue and clean-up efforts, wrote: "Underground fires raged for months. O'Toole remembers in February seeing a crane lift a steel beam vertically from deep within the catacombs of Ground Zero. 'It was dripping from the molten steel," he said'" (Lin, 2002).
Maybe, Arthur, when molten steel is pulled out months after the impact the official conspiracy theory loses credibility....
See previous post about amount of burnable material available, however I don't think any molten steel was being pulled out in February.
Arthur
Arthur
QUOTE (Lon Waters+Feb 21 2006, 11:22 PM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 21 2006, 09:06 PM)
Why?
We KNOW part of the plane went THROUGH the towers.
The passport would most likely been on Atta or inside a case, near the front of the plane.
All it would have had to happen is for the passport to be part of the material carried through the building.
If so it would have been in front of the fireball.
It was supposedly found by a person on the street shortly after the impact and turned into a policeman.
Pictures from the street scene taken immediately after the impact show pieces and parts strewn along the streets, including parts of people (covered up), office equipment, papers etc. So a lot got blown out of the towers and presumably some of that would have been originally from inside the plane.
Arthur
After further review, I would be willing to reconsider my position on the passport if any of the following could be evidenced as having survived the planes: a boarding pass, a napkin, a seat back magazine, a peanut wrapper, or any of the many other pieces of paper that occupy an airliner in flight. A wallet containing the driver's license of someone on the passenger manifest would really cinch it for me. I suspect the body parts were were more likely from occupants of the building than occupants of the plane, but again if it could be shown to be otherwise....
Just a quick search.....
Iskandar was a passenger on Flight 11.
http://iskandar.com/waleed911/atmcard.html
We KNOW part of the plane went THROUGH the towers.
The passport would most likely been on Atta or inside a case, near the front of the plane.
All it would have had to happen is for the passport to be part of the material carried through the building.
If so it would have been in front of the fireball.
It was supposedly found by a person on the street shortly after the impact and turned into a policeman.
Pictures from the street scene taken immediately after the impact show pieces and parts strewn along the streets, including parts of people (covered up), office equipment, papers etc. So a lot got blown out of the towers and presumably some of that would have been originally from inside the plane.
Arthur
After further review, I would be willing to reconsider my position on the passport if any of the following could be evidenced as having survived the planes: a boarding pass, a napkin, a seat back magazine, a peanut wrapper, or any of the many other pieces of paper that occupy an airliner in flight. A wallet containing the driver's license of someone on the passenger manifest would really cinch it for me. I suspect the body parts were were more likely from occupants of the building than occupants of the plane, but again if it could be shown to be otherwise....
Just a quick search.....
Iskandar was a passenger on Flight 11.
http://iskandar.com/waleed911/atmcard.html
See previous post about amount of burnable material available, however I don't think any molten steel was being pulled out in February.
Arthur
FOR MONTHS after the attack.......????????
hasta manyana
Arthur
FOR MONTHS after the attack.......????????
hasta manyana
QUOTE (Lon Waters+Feb 21 2006, 08:44 PM)