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Guest_Steve
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 13 2006, 06:28 AM)
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Feb 12 2006, 11:20 PM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 12 2006, 02:09 PM)
QUOTE (ReasonWhy+)
Talk about taking something out of context. What is the cost of Visualization after compiling the data? Are you implying they did not use a Visualization to check their work?


I suspect its quite expensive.

One can evaluate the NUMERICAL results of a model fairly easily, but to take the NUMERICAL results of a model and use them to generate a 3D VISUALIZATION seems to me to be VERY complicated.

Do you have evidence that it is not?

Arthur

I have never used FEA without some form of visualization or post processer and find it hard to believe NIST does not see value in it. They could just release the raw data and let others post process the results.

"The `finite' in FEA comes from the idea that there are a finite, or countable, number of elements in a finite element model," explains Shepherd. "A computer then adds up all the individual behaviors to predict the behavior of the actual object." The computer is a necessity because using a calculator, while possible, would not get you very far; FEA is that tedious a technique. The FEA solver outputs a voluminous amount of data, which visualization tools then post process into graphical displays to show the stresses, strains, deformations, temperatures, and other details throughout the part."

http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/109704.html

You quoted an Automotive Engineering source talking about using FEA to design a PART in a car.

On the other hand, the WTC modeled 8 floors on each tower.

To put the FEA that NIST performed in perspective the aircraft impact represented over 2 MILLION separate elements, and using sub-microsecond steps, it took 2 weeks on a 12 node computer to model the FRACTION of a second it took for the airplane impact.

So NO, I do not think making a Visualization, of events an HOUR past what was KNOWN to have happened would be very valuable, or money well spent. Apparently neither did the people at NIST.

Arthur

I don't think it a matter of time or expense...just having the right software. Anyway, it seems a small price to pay to settle some very troubling issues...
Guest_Steve
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 13 2006, 06:36 AM)
QUOTE (hereward+Feb 13 2006, 02:26 AM)
How long is fire proofing protection usually required to last anyway?  I read somewhere that the typical fire rating for the stuff they use on steel beams is about 2 hours.

The Meridian burned for 19 hours - long enough to burn away all the fireproofing on the affected floors.


Fires don't burn in ONE SPOT for 19 hours, they run out of FUEL.

Arthur

Exactly, so what's different between the fire scenario at Meridian and the WTC? Except that one burned almost 20 times as long, and stood...
adoucette
QUOTE (Guest_Steve+Feb 13 2006, 10:10 AM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 13 2006, 06:36 AM)
QUOTE (hereward+Feb 13 2006, 02:26 AM)
How long is fire proofing protection usually required to last anyway?  I read somewhere that the typical fire rating for the stuff they use on steel beams is about 2 hours.

The Meridian burned for 19 hours - long enough to burn away all the fireproofing on the affected floors.


Fires don't burn in ONE SPOT for 19 hours, they run out of FUEL.

Arthur

Exactly, so what's different between the fire scenario at Meridian and the WTC? Except that one burned almost 20 times as long, and stood...

Well lets see

One didn't have a 757 fly into it at 450 MPH,

One didn't have multiple floors engulfed in flames virtually instantly.

One had no firefighting at all.

One had a REINFORCED CONCRETE CORE and one did not.

Other than that, no difference.

Arthur
adoucette
QUOTE (Guest_Steve+Feb 13 2006, 10:08 AM)
I don't think it a matter of time or expense...just having the right software.  Anyway, it seems a small price to pay to settle some very troubling issues...

Well, apparently NO ONE with any experience in the field is TROUBLED by the NIST report.

I repeat, no one cares about your 9-11 "Truth" movement, because from discussions I've had, everyone I've talked to sees it in one of about four ways.

Tin foil hat crazies
Paranoid and/or delusional
Hucksters out to make a buck
Al Qaeda sympathizers/supporters

Arthur
adoucette
QUOTE (gordon+Feb 13 2006, 05:56 AM)
The falling upper section on the other hand, would have not hit all the bolts at the exact same instant, so at any point in time shear forces far in excess of the bolt strength would be applied by the falling mass.



But if the floors becoming disconnected was a precondition for collapse and hence the movement of the falling mass, how could they be disconnected by the falling mass?

Gordon

The floors becoming disconnected was NOT a precondition to collapse.

Failure of the Perimeter Columns followed by failure of the Core Columns was the cause of the collapse. NIST never mentions the floors becoming disconnected prior to the initiation of the collapse.

Read sections 6.14.2 and 6.14.3 of the NIST report.

Why are you arguing about things NIST does not claim happened?


Arthur
Guest
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 13 2006, 02:24 PM)
QUOTE (Guest_Steve+Feb 13 2006, 10:08 AM)
I don't think it a matter of time or expense...just having the right software.  Anyway, it seems a small price to pay to settle some very troubling issues...

Well, apparently NO ONE with any experience in the field is TROUBLED by the NIST report.

I repeat, no one cares about your 9-11 "Truth" movement, because from discussions I've had, everyone I've talked to sees it in one of about four ways.

Tin foil hat crazies
Paranoid and/or delusional
Hucksters out to make a buck
Al Qaeda sympathizers/supporters

Arthur

Mr. Hot-shot Day Trader,

I am not a member of the "9-11 Truth" movement; I am as yet undecided. I am just making points as I see them. DO YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT??

PS: I hope you don't see me on the way home after a bad day of trading. With an attitude like yours, I am afraid you would SHOOT me!
adoucette
QUOTE (Guest+Feb 13 2006, 10:41 AM)
Mr. Hot-shot Day Trader,

I am not a member of the "9-11 Truth" movement; I am as yet undecided.  I am just making points as I see them.  DO YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT??

PS: I hope you don't see me on the way home after a bad day of trading.  With an attitude like yours, I am afraid you would SHOOT me!

If you are NOT a member of the "9-11 Truth" movement then the reply does not apply to you.

If on the other hand after reading the NIST report and comparing that to the material promoted on the various 9-11 conspiracy sites, you believe the towers were brought down by CD, then there is a good chance you will fit into one of the categories.

Arthur
reasonwhy
QUOTE (Guest_Steve+Feb 13 2006, 06:08 AM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 13 2006, 06:28 AM)
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Feb 12 2006, 11:20 PM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 12 2006, 02:09 PM)
QUOTE (ReasonWhy+)
Talk about taking something out of context. What is the cost of Visualization after compiling the data? Are you implying they did not use a Visualization to check their work?


I suspect its quite expensive.

One can evaluate the NUMERICAL results of a model fairly easily, but to take the NUMERICAL results of a model and use them to generate a 3D VISUALIZATION seems to me to be VERY complicated.

Do you have evidence that it is not?

Arthur

I have never used FEA without some form of visualization or post processer and find it hard to believe NIST does not see value in it. They could just release the raw data and let others post process the results.

"The `finite' in FEA comes from the idea that there are a finite, or countable, number of elements in a finite element model," explains Shepherd. "A computer then adds up all the individual behaviors to predict the behavior of the actual object." The computer is a necessity because using a calculator, while possible, would not get you very far; FEA is that tedious a technique. The FEA solver outputs a voluminous amount of data, which visualization tools then post process into graphical displays to show the stresses, strains, deformations, temperatures, and other details throughout the part."

http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/109704.html

You quoted an Automotive Engineering source talking about using FEA to design a PART in a car.

On the other hand, the WTC modeled 8 floors on each tower.

To put the FEA that NIST performed in perspective the aircraft impact represented over 2 MILLION separate elements, and using sub-microsecond steps, it took 2 weeks on a 12 node computer to model the FRACTION of a second it took for the airplane impact.

So NO, I do not think making a Visualization, of events an HOUR past what was KNOWN to have happened would be very valuable, or money well spent. Apparently neither did the people at NIST.

Arthur

I don't think it a matter of time or expense...just having the right software. Anyway, it seems a small price to pay to settle some very troubling issues...

They had the right software, the NIST report says they had to change the results to match what was observed. The Post processing is fast unless the results have to be changed. Then you would have to run the expensive solver again.
Guest_Steve
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 13 2006, 03:15 PM)
QUOTE (Guest+Feb 13 2006, 10:41 AM)
Mr. Hot-shot Day Trader,

I am not a member of the "9-11 Truth" movement; I am as yet undecided.  I am just making points as I see them.  DO YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT??

PS: I hope you don't see me on the way home after a bad day of trading.  With an attitude like yours, I am afraid you would SHOOT me!

If you are NOT a member of the "9-11 Truth" movement then the reply does not apply to you.

If on the other hand after reading the NIST report and comparing that to the material promoted on the various 9-11 conspiracy sites, you believe the towers were brought down by CD, then there is a good chance you will fit into one of the categories.

Arthur

"Anyone who does not agree with ME, is WRONG." Nice scientific "reasoning"...
adoucette
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Feb 13 2006, 11:15 AM)
They had the right software, the NIST report says they had to change the results to match what was observed. The Post processing is fast unless the results have to be changed. Then you would have to run the expensive solver again.

Change the RESULTS to match the observed?????

Please provide reference to where NIST made this statement.

Everything I read was the opposite, they changed INPUT until the model's output results matched what was observed. As in table 6.5 on page 109 where they varied the impact speed, vertical and lateral approach angle etc until the impact damage from the model matched the actual damage as seen in photographs.

Arthur
adoucette
QUOTE (Guest_Steve+Feb 13 2006, 11:21 AM)
"Anyone who does not agree with ME, is WRONG."  Nice scientific "reasoning"...

With ME????

No, I've done no analysis of the WTC towers.

I've yet to see ANYONE argue convincingly on SCIENTIFIC MERITS against the NIST report though.

Arthur
gordon
NIST never mentions the floors becoming disconnected prior to the initiation of the collapse.

So how did the still connected floors cause overpressures, which it is claimed ejected material out of the windows, so far ahead of their position at the collapse front?

Gordon
adoucette
QUOTE (gordon+Feb 13 2006, 12:55 PM)
NIST never mentions the floors becoming disconnected prior to the initiation of the collapse.

So how did the still connected floors cause overpressures, which it is claimed ejected material out of the windows, so far ahead of their position at the collapse front?

Gordon

Where in the NIST document do they address material being ejected out of windows ahead of the collapse?

I must have missed that, please provide reference.

Thanks

Arthur
brian
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 13 2006, 05:05 PM)
QUOTE (gordon+Feb 13 2006, 12:55 PM)
NIST never mentions the floors becoming disconnected prior to the initiation of the collapse.

So how did the still connected floors cause overpressures, which it is claimed ejected material out of the windows, so far ahead of their position at the collapse front?

Gordon

Where in the NIST document do they address material being ejected out of windows ahead of the collapse?

I must have missed that, please provide reference.

Thanks

Arthur

Yes correct, NIST does not - and that says it all.

NIST does not mention the facts available to all to witness for themselves.

The squibs are evident

The fact that these towers were pulverised in mid air making this discussion academic - the forces NIST claim brought about global collapse did not exist.

NIST does not mention the overwhelming evidence of explosives including injuries resulting from them.

NISTs report is a blatant prescribed whitewash which MR Manning of Fire Engineering so prophetically described as -

"a half-baked farce ..... commandeered by political forces whose primary interests, to put it mildly, lie far afield of full disclosure"

Guest
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 13 2006, 05:05 PM)
QUOTE (gordon+Feb 13 2006, 12:55 PM)
NIST never mentions the floors becoming disconnected prior to the initiation of the collapse.

So how did the still connected floors cause overpressures, which it is claimed ejected material out of the windows, so far ahead of their position at the collapse front?

Gordon

Where in the NIST document do they address material being ejected out of windows ahead of the collapse?

I must have missed that, please provide reference.

Thanks

Arthur

Not in the NIST report, IDIOT... This was YOUR contention...
newton
no squib-'like' ejections exist, because they weren't in the NIST report. get it straight, you CT tinfoilhatters.

of course, this also means a lot of things don't exist, because they also were not in the NIST report.
other stuff, like eyewitness testimony of bombs going off doesn't exist because the 911 commision says so, OKAY!?

gee, these conspiracy theorists can't think for themselves.
if you want to think for yourself, read a government report and BELIEVE IT LIKE THE GOSPEL, you sympathiser/supporters! if there is a logical inconsitency, then it is YOUR logic that is skewed, okay?

obviously a secret government agency, that only covers a fraction of the material YOU would think would be necessary for an exhaustive investigation, knows far more than you, because they have SCIENTISTS and PHD.s and ALL the evidence!
on the 911 commision there were EXPERTS and INVESTIGATORS!
do you think they would blatantly IGNORE anything IMPORTANT? of course not. the government is akin to a guardian big brother, and anyone who questions the government is worse than a terrorist. they should be stripped of citizenship, and put into big ovens.

idiot moron fools that don't understand arthur is never wrong about anything will be first.
adoucette
You're debating what I, someone who has never studied architecture, believes?

That's rich.

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Like I said, the OFFICIAL document on the collapse is the NIST report.

If you don't want to Debate what it says, fine.

Just shows your argument has no legs.

Arthur
gordon
Where in the NIST document do they address material being ejected out of windows ahead of the collapse?
I must have missed that, please provide reference.
Thanks
Arthur





Don't know.
But being as how the ejections were witnessed and recorded, we can assume that they did happen.
So how did the still connected floors cause the overpressures, which are cited as the cause of those ejections, so far ahead of their position at the collapse front?

Gordon

Lon Waters
QUOTE (lenbrazil+Feb 13 2006, 10:53 AM)
QUOTE (Lon Waters+Feb 12 2006, 08:03 PM)

Here are some comparisons:

Empire State Building, NYC = 365, 000, 000 kg
Woolworth Building, NYC = 223, 000, 000 kg
John Hancock Tower, Chicago = 384, 000, 000 kg
Sears Tower Chicago = 440, 000, 000 kg.
Taipei 101 = 700, 000, 000 kg.
Petronas Twin Towers = 350, 000, 000 kg. (each)


The weights of the other buildings makes his calculations MORE resonable. Each WTC tower was much bigger than the other buildings.

Where do the estimates of the weights of steel and concrete etc used in each tower come from?

The Sears Tower is is taller and larger. The Petronas Towers are taller. The John Hancock is a little smaller at 100 stories. The Empire State used much more steel and concrete for its height than the WTC towers. Using these numbers suggest (to me) a 300-400 million kg ballpark as a starting point.

I am not sure where the numbers for the mass of the steel, concrete, etc. come from (beyond the post I read) which is why I sought help here.
yesitdid
QUOTE
NISTs report is a blatant prescribed whitewash which MR Manning of Fire Engineering so prophetically described as -

"a half-baked farce ..... commandeered by political forces whose primary interests, to put it mildly, lie far afield of full disclosure"


More mis-direction from the non-believers of the official history of the events of 9/11.
IIRC Fire Engineering's problem with the NIST report had nothing to do with FE believeing that explosives were used. It has to do with a percieved cover-up of shoddy, sweetheart fire code deals that PANYC had.
Guest
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 13 2006, 05:48 PM)
You're debating what I, someone who has never studied architecture, believes?

That's rich.

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Like I said, the OFFICIAL document on the collapse is the NIST report.

If you don't want to Debate what it says, fine.

Just shows your argument has no legs.

Arthur

"OFFICIAL" HEADLINES

"Poland attacks Germany, Sparking WWII"

"Terroists attack the Reichtag, leading to Stringent New Laws to Protect Our Citizens"
yesitdid
QUOTE (newton+Feb 13 2006, 05:47 PM)

obviously a secret government agency, that only covers a fraction of the material YOU would think would be necessary for an exhaustive investigation, knows far more than you, because they have SCIENTISTS and PHD.s and ALL the evidence!
on the 911 commision there were EXPERTS and INVESTIGATORS!

Another chuckle from the CT side of things.
NIST or FEMA or the 9/11 Commission are 'secret government agencies'?



Expelled dust is not particularily relevant in a building undergoing collapse. The building is being shook violently while the collapse is taking place, windows may shatter, drywall may snap, bolts may snap.
In addition the air contained by the floor at which the collapse is occurring will be expelled. That air has to go somewhere. If the ceiling comes down first more towards the center then almost all of that air will exit via blowing out the windows on that floor. If the ceiling comes down more along the perimeter then some air at least will be trapped in the center and forced out down the elevator shafts. That air will find the easiest path to flow through and in some cases that will mean exiting through the elevator doors of lower floors and lower floor office spaces and windows.

Indeed there were scientists and engineers, many with Ph.D.'s on the NIST/FEMA investigations and so far only a handful of anyone with a relevant degree who disagrees with those persons.

Water quality engineers and economists do not have relevant degrees.

brian
QUOTE (yesitdid+Feb 13 2006, 06:34 PM)
QUOTE
NISTs report is a blatant prescribed whitewash which MR Manning of Fire Engineering so prophetically described as -

"a half-baked farce ..... commandeered by political forces whose primary interests, to put it mildly, lie far afield of full disclosure"


More mis-direction from the non-believers of the official history of the events of 9/11.
IIRC Fire Engineering's problem with the NIST report had nothing to do with FE believeing that explosives were used. It has to do with a percieved cover-up of shoddy, sweetheart fire code deals that PANYC had.

Wrong.

Manning calls for "no stones unturned"

What we got was the half baked farce he predicted.

"Some citizens are taking to the streets to protest the investigation sellout. Sally Regenhard, for one, wants to know why and how the building fell as it did upon her unfortunate son Christian, an FDNY probationary firefighter. And so do we.

Clearly, there are burning questions that need answers. Based on the incident's magnitude alone, a full-throttle, fully resourced, forensic investigation is imperative. More important, from a moral standpoint, for the safety of present and future generations who live and work in tall buildings-and for firefighters, always first in and last out-the lessons about the buildings' design and behavior in this extraordinary event must be learned and applied in the real world.

To treat the September 11 incident any differently would be the height of stupidity and ignorance.

The destruction and removal of evidence must stop immediately.

The federal government must scrap the current setup and commission a fully resourced blue ribbon panel to conduct a clean and thorough investigation of the fire and collapse, leaving no stones unturned."

http://fe.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Dis...7&VERSION_NUM=1
adoucette
QUOTE (gordon+Feb 13 2006, 02:21 PM)
Where in the NIST document do they address material being ejected out of windows ahead of the collapse?
I must have missed that, please provide reference.
Thanks
Arthur





Don't know.
But being as how the ejections were witnessed and recorded, we can assume that they did happen.
So how did the still connected floors cause the overpressures, which are cited as the cause of those ejections, so far ahead of their position at the collapse front?

Gordon

Yes, I've seen the picture.

The one shown repeatedly APPEARs to be a blast of air through a broken window mixed with small debris and/or dust.

So?

Why do you see this event as significant?

One little blast of air on one side of one tower in the middle of the collapse is supposed to mean the NIST report is wrong?

In what POSSIBLE way is it PROOF of High Explosives?

I mean is there NO OTHER LOGICAL explanation for this to occur within a collapsing steel frame building? You know, one where the pieces supporting the loads are ALL interconnected?

None, Right?

Arthur
adoucette
QUOTE (brian+Feb 13 2006, 02:53 PM)
QUOTE (yesitdid+Feb 13 2006, 06:34 PM)
QUOTE
NISTs report is a blatant prescribed whitewash which MR Manning of Fire Engineering so prophetically described as -

"a half-baked farce ..... commandeered by political forces whose primary interests, to put it mildly, lie far afield of full disclosure"


More mis-direction from the non-believers of the official history of the events of 9/11.
IIRC Fire Engineering's problem with the NIST report had nothing to do with FE believeing that explosives were used. It has to do with a percieved cover-up of shoddy, sweetheart fire code deals that PANYC had.

Wrong.

Manning calls for "no stones unturned"

What we got was the half baked farce he predicted.

"Some citizens are taking to the streets to protest the investigation sellout. Sally Regenhard, for one, wants to know why and how the building fell as it did upon her unfortunate son Christian, an FDNY probationary firefighter. And so do we.

Clearly, there are burning questions that need answers. Based on the incident's magnitude alone, a full-throttle, fully resourced, forensic investigation is imperative. More important, from a moral standpoint, for the safety of present and future generations who live and work in tall buildings-and for firefighters, always first in and last out-the lessons about the buildings' design and behavior in this extraordinary event must be learned and applied in the real world.

To treat the September 11 incident any differently would be the height of stupidity and ignorance.

The destruction and removal of evidence must stop immediately.

The federal government must scrap the current setup and commission a fully resourced blue ribbon panel to conduct a clean and thorough investigation of the fire and collapse, leaving no stones unturned."

http://fe.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Dis...7&VERSION_NUM=1

Manning was talking about FEMA.

Post something where Manning says the NIST investigation was FLAWED as to WHY the towers fell.

Arthur
adoucette
QUOTE (Guest+Feb 13 2006, 02:44 PM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 13 2006, 05:48 PM)
You're debating what I, someone who has never studied architecture, believes?

That's rich.

laugh.gif  laugh.gif  laugh.gif

Like I said, the OFFICIAL document on the collapse is the NIST report.

If you don't want to Debate what it says, fine.

Just shows your argument has no legs.

Arthur

"OFFICIAL" HEADLINES

"Poland attacks Germany, Sparking WWII"

"Terroists attack the Reichtag, leading to Stringent New Laws to Protect Our Citizens"

Headlines do not equate to a Peer Reviewed Scientific Report.

Arthur
adoucette
QUOTE (brian+Feb 13 2006, 01:22 PM)

NIST does not mention the facts available to all to witness for themselves.

The squibs are evident

The fact that these towers were pulverised in mid air making this discussion academic - the forces NIST claim brought about global collapse did not exist.

NIST does not mention the overwhelming evidence of explosives including injuries resulting from them.


So Brian, you have EVIDENCE that those small blasts of air and debris were because of Squibs?

You are prepared to present a paper showing that the forces that NIST claim brought about global collapse didn't exist?

And you have OVERWHELMING evidence that EXPLOSIVES were used?

Gosh, over 300 pages on this thread and I can't recall ONE post with ACTUAL evidence that EXPLOSIVES were used.

I've seen a lot of HANDWAVING,

You know, This "insert X here" COULDN'T HAPPEN without explosives,

You know, BS like that, but what I haven't seen is any actual EVIDENCE for ANYTHING except your pitiful lack of imagination and understanding of basic Physics.

But hey, you got some EVIDENCE, I'm willing to listen.

Arthur

gordon
Yes, I've seen the picture.

The one shown repeatedly APPEARs to be a blast of air through a broken window mixed with small debris and/or dust.
So?
Why do you see this event as significant?
One little blast of air on one side of one tower in the middle of the collapse is supposed to mean the NIST report is wrong?

My emphasis....G

I think you're missing the fact that there were myriad such ejections, some of them a good distance away from the collapse front, and thus necessarily from their possibly identified source.
The further they are apart, the less likely they are to be associated, because of the volumetric ratios and available overpressure causing mechanisms.


In what POSSIBLE way is it PROOF of High Explosives?

I wouldn't call them proof until all other plausible possibilities had been explored and exhausted. I would however describe them as evidence, and it is evidence which would fit with some theories involving high explosives, most notably because high explosives undoubtedly would have caused an overpressure.
The case remains to be conclusively or even plausibly made that the floors were responsible for the ejections and if the floors were also responsible for pulling the walls in, thus evidencing their geographical remoteness from the ejections themselves, then this makes it a smaller likelyhood that they were in fact responsible for the ejections.

One thing is certain, something caused them. The very fact that NIST did not cite a simple cause would indicate that they experienced some difficulty with the subject

Gordon.
adoucette
QUOTE (Lon Waters+Feb 13 2006, 02:29 PM)
QUOTE (lenbrazil+Feb 13 2006, 10:53 AM)
QUOTE (Lon Waters+Feb 12 2006, 08:03 PM)

Here are some comparisons:

Empire State Building, NYC = 365, 000, 000 kg
Woolworth Building, NYC = 223, 000, 000 kg
John Hancock Tower, Chicago = 384, 000, 000 kg
Sears Tower Chicago = 440, 000, 000 kg.
Taipei 101 = 700, 000, 000 kg.
Petronas Twin Towers = 350, 000, 000 kg. (each)


The weights of the other buildings makes his calculations MORE resonable. Each WTC tower was much bigger than the other buildings.

Where do the estimates of the weights of steel and concrete etc used in each tower come from?

The Sears Tower is is taller and larger. The Petronas Towers are taller. The John Hancock is a little smaller at 100 stories. The Empire State used much more steel and concrete for its height than the WTC towers. Using these numbers suggest (to me) a 300-400 million kg ballpark as a starting point.

I am not sure where the numbers for the mass of the steel, concrete, etc. come from (beyond the post I read) which is why I sought help here.

I'm not sure where you are going with this Lon, but keep in mind that the WTC towers used ever smaller steel columns (perimeter and core) as they went up.
A number of other parts of the towers were also not evenly distributed over its height (lobby, plaza, basement levels, elevators etc)
So finding out how much steel is interesting but keep in mind that it is not evenly used over the buildings height.

Arthur
gordon
To put the FEA that NIST performed in perspective the aircraft impact represented over 2 MILLION separate elements, and using sub-microsecond steps, it took 2 weeks on a 12 node computer to model the FRACTION of a second it took for the airplane impact.


A feat which they then rivalled at the other end of the spectrum by summing up all of the collaapse in just four words, "global collapse then ensued"

G

adoucette
QUOTE (gordon+Feb 13 2006, 04:05 PM)
Yes, I've seen the picture.

The one shown repeatedly APPEARs to be a blast of air through a broken window mixed with small debris and/or dust.
So?
Why do you see this event as significant?
One little blast of air on one side of one tower in the middle of the collapse is supposed to mean the NIST report is wrong?

My emphasis....G

I think you're missing the fact that there were myriad such ejections, some of them a good distance away from the collapse front, and thus necessarily from their possibly identified source.
The further they are apart, the less likely they are to be associated, because of the volumetric ratios and available overpressure causing mechanisms.


In what POSSIBLE way is it PROOF of High Explosives?

I wouldn't call them proof until all other plausible possibilities had been explored and exhausted.  I would however describe them as evidence, and it is evidence which would fit with some theories involving high explosives, most notably because high explosives undoubtedly would have caused an overpressure.
The case remains to be conclusively or even plausibly made that the floors were responsible for the ejections and if the floors were also responsible for pulling the walls in, thus evidencing their geographical remoteness from the ejections themselves, then this makes it a smaller likelyhood that they were in fact responsible for the ejections.

One thing is certain, something caused them.  The very fact that NIST did not cite a simple cause would indicate that they experienced some difficulty with the subject 

Gordon.

Ah, it turns out that NIST did post an explanation.

The falling mass of the building compressed the air ahead of it, much like the action of a piston, forcing material, such as smoke and debris, out the windows as seen in several videos.

As to squibs.

I've seen claims that there were 2 in WTC 1 and 1 in WTC 2.

However what IS clear is that the "squibs" going off don't have ANY impact on the TOP DOWN collapse.

And if they WERE "squibs", why don't we see more than ONE LITTLE ejection at one little place on the entire floor when the videos show 400 linear feet of floor????

Why, because they ain't friggin squibs, that's why.

HAD High Explosives been set off on any floor of the WTC towers we wouldn't be here debating if they were "SQUIBS" and what "SQUIBS" really are, because it would have been OBVIOUS that High Explosive were set off on a floor because pretty much every friggin window on that floor would get blown out at ONCE.

Arthur
brian
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 13 2006, 07:29 PM)
QUOTE (brian+Feb 13 2006, 02:53 PM)
QUOTE (yesitdid+Feb 13 2006, 06:34 PM)
QUOTE
NISTs report is a blatant prescribed whitewash which MR Manning of Fire Engineering so prophetically described as -

"a half-baked farce ..... commandeered by political forces whose primary interests, to put it mildly, lie far afield of full disclosure"


More mis-direction from the non-believers of the official history of the events of 9/11.
IIRC Fire Engineering's problem with the NIST report had nothing to do with FE believeing that explosives were used. It has to do with a percieved cover-up of shoddy, sweetheart fire code deals that PANYC had.

Wrong.

Manning calls for "no stones unturned"

What we got was the half baked farce he predicted.

"Some citizens are taking to the streets to protest the investigation sellout. Sally Regenhard, for one, wants to know why and how the building fell as it did upon her unfortunate son Christian, an FDNY probationary firefighter. And so do we.

Clearly, there are burning questions that need answers. Based on the incident's magnitude alone, a full-throttle, fully resourced, forensic investigation is imperative. More important, from a moral standpoint, for the safety of present and future generations who live and work in tall buildings-and for firefighters, always first in and last out-the lessons about the buildings' design and behavior in this extraordinary event must be learned and applied in the real world.

To treat the September 11 incident any differently would be the height of stupidity and ignorance.

The destruction and removal of evidence must stop immediately.

The federal government must scrap the current setup and commission a fully resourced blue ribbon panel to conduct a clean and thorough investigation of the fire and collapse, leaving no stones unturned."

http://fe.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Dis...7&VERSION_NUM=1

Manning was talking about FEMA.

Post something where Manning says the NIST investigation was FLAWED as to WHY the towers fell.

Arthur

Given that Manning's statement includes -

" a full-throttle, fully resourced, forensic investigation is imperative"

"The destruction and removal of evidence must stop immediately."

"leaving no stones unturned."

NIST fails on all three of his points therefore -

- even if he were to fully endorse the NIST report HIS endorsement would have no credibility

The simple fact of the matter is the investigation has been the half baked farce Manning said it would be regardless of who was and when they were conducting it.

No one can deny this simple fact and remain credible.

Of course there are those that will but they lost all credibility a few hundred pages back.



adoucette
QUOTE (gordon+Feb 13 2006, 04:19 PM)
To put the FEA that NIST performed in perspective the aircraft impact represented over 2 MILLION separate elements, and using sub-microsecond steps, it took 2 weeks on a 12 node computer to model the FRACTION of a second it took for the airplane impact.


A feat which they then rivalled at the other end of the spectrum by summing up all of the collaapse in just four words,  "global collapse then ensued" 

G

Gordon,

I suggest you read 6.14.4 where they describe the collapse.

QUOTE
The story immediately below the stories in which the columns failed was not able to arrest this initial movement as evidenced by videos from several vantage points.

The structure below the level of collapse initiation offered minimal resistance to the falling building mass at and above the impact zone. The potential energy released by the downward movement of the large building mass far exceeded the capacity of the intact structure below to absorb that through energy of deformation.


Which is where I believe you came in.


Arthur
adoucette
QUOTE (brian+Feb 13 2006, 04:43 PM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 13 2006, 07:29 PM)
Manning was talking about FEMA.

Post something where Manning says the NIST investigation was FLAWED as to WHY the towers fell.

Arthur

Given that Manning's statement includes -

" a full-throttle, fully resourced, forensic investigation is imperative"

"The destruction and removal of evidence must stop immediately."

"leaving no stones unturned."

NIST fails on all three of his points therefore -

- even if he were to fully endorse the NIST report HIS endorsement would have no credibility

The simple fact of the matter is the investigation has been the half baked farce Manning said it would be regardless of who was and when they were conducting it.

No one can deny this simple fact and remain credible.

Of course there are those that will but they lost all credibility a few hundred pages back.

So I take it that means you can't find a quote by Manning AGAINST the NIST effort?

Why not just SAY SO.

Sheesh.

Arthur
brian
Given that Manning's statement includes -

" a full-throttle, fully resourced, forensic investigation is imperative"

"The destruction and removal of evidence must stop immediately."

"leaving no stones unturned."

NIST fails on all three of his points therefore -

- even if he were to fully endorse the NIST report HIS endorsement would have no credibility

The simple fact of the matter is the investigation has been the half baked farce Manning said it would be regardless of who was and when they were conducting it.

No one can deny this simple fact and remain credible.

Of course there are those that will but they lost all credibility a few hundred pages back.

Now who might that last sentence apply to? Sheesh.
frater plecticus
FEB 13 2006--Venice,FL.
by Daniel Hopsicker


Next week the MadCowMorningNews will succeed in doing something neither the Congressional Intelligence Committee’s nor the 9.11 Commission’s investigation ever did: depose under oath an associate of Mohamed Atta’s in Florida.

This opportunity doesn’t come without a price, however...It comes with yet another lawsuit. Which is fine...we don't shrink from telling the truth. (You may have noticed.) But our legal bills have been mounting, to the point where we have not had the heart to even open the last few monthly statements from our lawyer.

The article continues.....


You're not cleared for this information...

Here’s the background to the suit: “Welcome to TERRORLAND” revealed that at least seven of Mohamed Atta's closest associates in Florida weren’t Arab, but Austrian, German, and Swiss.

Through the simple expedient of interviewing eyewitnesses, we discovered the names of seven European men, all pilots, whose existence has neither been mentioned nor alluded to in press accounts or official statements.

Then last January, a German pilot named Stephan Verhaaren filed a lawsuit, claiming defamation for having been linked to Atta in “Welcome to TERRORLAND.”

Mohamed Atta’s former American girlfriend, Amanda Keller, identified Verhaaren as an associate of Atta’s, in highly credible testimony. Official documents we’ve obtained add credence to her account.

A Miami lawyer does what Miami lawyers do

"He's constantly reporting that my client somehow has had something to do with terrorists, which is a total lie," Neil Chonin, a Miami lawyer representing Verhaaren, told the Sarasota Herald Tribune.

Chonin, we discovered, knows something about filing frivolous lawsuits.

In a highly unusual move in the usually genteel law profession, a federal judge in Miami ruled Chonin acted in bad faith in pursuing frivolous claims that he knew were groundless, and ordered him to pay $180,000 in legal costs.

The MadCowMorningNews is something new: real investigative news. We uncovered the most damning fact yet unearthed about the 9/11 attack, that during the same month Mohamed Atta and Marwan Al-Shehhi arrived at his Venice, FL flight school, the flight school owner’s Lear jet was seized by DEA agents who found 43 pounds of heroin aboard.

Imagine what the result would have been if Bob Woodward had reported this fact.

Do Islamic fundamentalists have major drug connections?

Imagine the response of the American people had they learned that the terrorists who murdered 3000 innocent civilians had been tolerated and even protected by U.S. officials who were engaged in international drug trafficking with Mohamed Atta’s paymasters in Kabul.

Alas, as we all know, Woodward didn’t. But we did.

Asked to sum up his journalistic philosophy, groundbreaking American muckraker George Seldes’ reply was to the point: “Tell the truth then run like hell!”

Having been sued now three times in four years, we know what he means.

http://www.madcowprod.com/
adoucette
QUOTE (brian+Feb 13 2006, 04:53 PM)

Of course there are those that will but they lost all credibility a few hundred pages back.

Now who might that last sentence apply to? Sheesh.

Well Foxx lost it before then, so I'm guessing it was either you or newton.

And while you are trying to deflect this, I take it you STILL haven't found a quote by Manning against what NIST has published?


Arthur
adoucette
QUOTE (frater plecticus+Feb 13 2006, 05:02 PM)

Next week the MadCowMorningNews will succeed in doing something neither the Congressional Intelligence Committee’s nor the 9.11 Commission’s investigation ever did: depose under oath an associate of Mohamed Atta’s in Florida.


Of course they are being SUED for CLAIMING the guy is an associate of ATTA.

Can you say CIRCULAR LOGIC???

Arthur
newton
well arthur, if you insist. lord knows you're always right.
i think i have a solution.

first the clips were really strong, and pulled in the perimeter columns.
then they were tired, so they decided to go to sleep, and of course, failed at that point.
the liberated floor slabs now fell one story.
of course, because of non-local quantum weirdness, and perhaps a wormhole or series of tiny black holes eddying behind them, they were still pulling on not only the perimeter columns, but also the core columns.
this is how a quarter acre(one side) of floor slab equates to the ENTIRE TOP OF THE BUILDING.

yeah, or perhaps a zero point energy feild was created just before one floor impacted the one below it.

i don't know. maybe it was gremlins. ya know, Gr=(BS)°
adoucette
Well newton, that was about the level of logic I would have anticipated from you.

You really had NOTHING to say, but felt you had to say something.

Which means I'd recommend a change to the last line to be

newton = BS^3

Arthur
gordon
There are several, I presume, schools of thought adhering to "official" lines, regarding the details of the collapse, but they can be subdivided by a characterisation of when, if and how the floor to column connections became disconnected. Those who say the floors pulled the columns in and thus had to remain connected for some period, and others who say the removal of floors allowed the collapse to initiate and thus had to be removed and travel ahead of the collapse.
Whereas the ejections being caused by pancaking floors ahead of the visible collapse front may have been vaguely plausible, the extension of that explanation to cover such large distances and increased pressure through such large volumes stretches the credulity of the theory.
When NIST say, "The falling mass of the building compressed the air ahead of it, much like the action of a piston, forcing material, such as smoke and debris, out the windows as seen in several videos." they would undoubtedly be correct, at or about the collapse front, but this is hard to believe over the extended number of storeys which separated ejections and collapse front.
An ejection 10 storeys from the front, would have to be powered by a twenty storey drop assuming 50% efficiency just to achieve an overpressure of two atmospheres. And that doesn't even account for the overpressure necessarily extending below the ejection level.

I think I'll try to examine the size of the pieces being ejected, but it will have to be done with care since a large looking piece, could turn out to be a poster from an office wall. But I think any ejected particles bigger than dust, would render this theory to the same state. Dust to dust.


Gordon.
adoucette
Gordon,
Why are you chasing inconsequential events?

As can be seen in the pictures what the CT'ers refer to as "squibs" are inconsequential. Nothing happens on the floors they occur on, except that these very small blasts of air/debris occur.

The glass doesn't blow out, the walls don't buckle, no flashes are seen, etc etc.

We may NEVER figure out what they are, or what set of circumstances caused them (the possiblities are almost endless), but what IS obvious is they had nothing to do with the TOP DOWN COLLAPSE.

The collapse CLEARLY begins at the point of impact.

Do you deny this?

If you don't, then explain any mechanism for preplanted explosives to cause the the failure at the point of impact, after burning for 1 hour after impact, and then to proceed from that point downward.

Arthur



yesitdid
QUOTE (brian+Feb 13 2006, 06:53 PM)
QUOTE (yesitdid+Feb 13 2006, 06:34 PM)
QUOTE
NISTs report is a blatant prescribed whitewash which MR Manning of Fire Engineering so prophetically described as -

"a half-baked farce ..... commandeered by political forces whose primary interests, to put it mildly, lie far afield of full disclosure"


More mis-direction from the non-believers of the official history of the events of 9/11.
IIRC Fire Engineering's problem with the NIST report had nothing to do with FE believeing that explosives were used. It has to do with a percieved cover-up of shoddy, sweetheart fire code deals that PANYC had.

Wrong.

Manning calls for "no stones unturned"

What we got was the half baked farce he predicted.

"Some citizens are taking to the streets to protest the investigation sellout. Sally Regenhard, for one, wants to know why and how the building fell as it did upon her unfortunate son Christian, an FDNY probationary firefighter. And so do we.

Clearly, there are burning questions that need answers. Based on the incident's magnitude alone, a full-throttle, fully resourced, forensic investigation is imperative. More important, from a moral standpoint, for the safety of present and future generations who live and work in tall buildings-and for firefighters, always first in and last out-the lessons about the buildings' design and behavior in this extraordinary event must be learned and applied in the real world.

To treat the September 11 incident any differently would be the height of stupidity and ignorance.

The destruction and removal of evidence must stop immediately.

The federal government must scrap the current setup and commission a fully resourced blue ribbon panel to conduct a clean and thorough investigation of the fire and collapse, leaving no stones unturned."

http://fe.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Dis...7&VERSION_NUM=1


I am not incorrect!!!
From the second paragraph of the article. bolds mine

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
NISTs report is a blatant prescribed whitewash which MR Manning of Fire Engineering so prophetically described as -

"a half-baked farce ..... commandeered by political forces whose primary interests, to put it mildly, lie far afield of full disclosure"


More mis-direction from the non-believers of the official history of the events of 9/11.
IIRC Fire Engineering's problem with the NIST report had nothing to do with FE believeing that explosives were used. It has to do with a percieved cover-up of shoddy, sweetheart fire code deals that PANYC had.

Wrong.

Manning calls for "no stones unturned"

What we got was the half baked farce he predicted.

"Some citizens are taking to the streets to protest the investigation sellout. Sally Regenhard, for one, wants to know why and how the building fell as it did upon her unfortunate son Christian, an FDNY probationary firefighter. And so do we.

Clearly, there are burning questions that need answers. Based on the incident's magnitude alone, a full-throttle, fully resourced, forensic investigation is imperative. More important, from a moral standpoint, for the safety of present and future generations who live and work in tall buildings-and for firefighters, always first in and last out-the lessons about the buildings' design and behavior in this extraordinary event must be learned and applied in the real world.

To treat the September 11 incident any differently would be the height of stupidity and ignorance.

The destruction and removal of evidence must stop immediately.

The federal government must scrap the current setup and commission a fully resourced blue ribbon panel to conduct a clean and thorough investigation of the fire and collapse, leaving no stones unturned."

http://fe.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Dis...7&VERSION_NUM=1


I am not incorrect!!!
From the second paragraph of the article. bolds mine

For more than three months, structural steel from the World Trade Center has been and continues to be cut up and sold for scrap. Crucial evidence that could answer many questions about high-rise building design practices and performance under fire conditions is on the slow boat to China, perhaps never to be seen again in America until you buy your next car.



from the tenth paragraph:
QUOTE
The builders and owners of the World Trade Center property, the Port Authority of New York-New Jersey, a governmental agency that operates in an accountability vacuum beyond the reach of local fire and building codes, has denied charges that the buildings' fire protection or construction components were substandard but has refused to cooperate with requests for documentation supporting its contentions.


Not a single mention of explosives at all. Manning's issue is with the PANYC fire codes and why the building succumbed to the fires!!!!!!!!!!

Is Manning pissed about this aspect of the reports? Yes, indeed he is and I don't blame him. Does this mean that Manning believes that there were explosives planted in the buildings that caused them to collapse? Absolutely NOT!
yesitdid
QUOTE
Do Islamic fundamentalists have major drug connections?


The Taliban did! They abhored the use of drugs but had no qualms about selling them to Europeans and N.America.
frater plecticus
heroin production has actually substantially increased since we "liberated" it. The taliban are vile misogynous fundamentalists, without a doubt, but they had actually stopped a great deal of the heroin production in Afghanistan.


September 27, 2001: ISI Has Connections to Taliban, Drug Trade, CIA
The Sydney Morning Herald discusses the connections between the CIA and Pakistan's ISI, and the ISI's long-standing control over the Taliban. Drugs are a big part of their operation: “opium cultivation and heroin production in Pakistan's northern tribal belt and adjoining Afghanistan were a vital offshoot of the ISI-CIA cooperation. It succeeded in turning some of the Soviet troops into addicts. Heroin sales in Europe and the US, carried out through an elaborate web of deception, transport networks, couriers, and payoffs, offset the cost of the decade-long war in Afghanistan.” [Sydney Morning Herald, 9/27/01]

http://cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/20...eymh092701.html

Afghanistan retakes heroin crown
Heroin manufacturer
Production has surged since the end of the Taliban regime
Afghanistan retook its place as the world's leading producer of heroin last year, after US-led forces overthrew the Taleban which had banned cultivation of opium poppies.

The finding was made in a key drug report, distributed in Kabul on Sunday by the US State Department, which supports almost identical findings by the United Nations last week.

Low-grade heroin is refined in Afghanistan from opium, which is manufactured from the extract of poppies.

"The size of the opium harvest in 2002 makes Afghanistan the world's leading opium producer," the report said.

The International Narcotics Control Strategy Report said the area of land used to cultivate opium poppies reached 30,750 hectares, compared with 1,685 hectares in 2001.

Afghanistan overtook Burma - whose production fell for the sixth straight year, to 630 tonnes - as the leading opium producer.

The British government is the leading sponsor of the anti-drugs campaign in Afghanistan.

Contradictory claims

The report said fighting illegal drug trafficking was key to the US war on terrorism.

Heroin manufacturer
Production has surged since the end of the Taliban

"The US campaign against global terrorism in 2002 highlighted the importance of our international drug control programs," it said.

Despite its own figures showing the Taleban had cut Afghanistan's heroin production by about 95%, the report claimed that heroin had "financed the former Taleban regime".

The UN International Narcotics Control Board (INCB) report, released on 26 February, said that Afghanistan produced 3,400 tonnes last year, up from 185 tonnes in 2001.

While the US report praised US-backed Afghan president Hamid Karzai for the measures he has introduced to cut heroin production, the UN report said his two executive orders had no practical impact.

Growing problem

The Pentagon and the State Department are reportedly split over how heroin production should be tackled in the country.

Taliban anti-drugs sign
The Taliban banned production

While the Pentagon insists that the military operations in Afghanistan should be limited to fighting terrorists, while the State Department thinks armed forces should tackle opium production.

The US report also praised Pakistan for "excellent" co-operation with US anti-drugs efforts.

Last week the head of Pakistan's Anti-Narcotics Force, Major General Zafar Abbas, said that heroin production in Afghanistan this year is expected to reach more than 4,000 tonnes.

Russian guards patrolling Afghanistan's 1,340-kilometre border with Tajikistan, the main transport route for Afghan drugs to European markets, have seized 1.5 tonnes of heroin already this year.

Last year, Russian and Tajik border guards seized 6.7 tonnes of drugs.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2814861.stm
gordon
Gordon,
Why are you chasing inconsequential events?


I don't agree that it is inconsequential, since the ejections indicate that something was going on, at or around that area, at that time. Identifying the cause would help to narrow down the possibilities

As can be seen in the pictures what the CT'ers refer to as "squibs" are inconsequential. Nothing happens on the floors they occur on, except that these very small blasts of air/debris occur.
The glass doesn't blow out, the walls don't buckle, no flashes are seen, etc etc.
We may NEVER figure out what they are, or what set of circumstances caused them (the possiblities are almost endless), but what IS obvious is they had nothing to do with the TOP DOWN COLLAPSE.


Again, this is our point of contention. I can't believe that the possibilities are endless because I haven't heard a single plausible possibility and if they were nothing to do with the top down collapse what were they to do with?


The collapse CLEARLY begins at the point of impact.
Do you deny this?
If you don't, then explain any mechanism for preplanted explosives to cause the the failure at the point of impact, after burning for 1 hour after impact, and then to proceed from that point downward.
Arthur



No, on that point we do agree?
However, and remembering that I am no expert on controlled demolition, I would take out a lower section of the core, maybe with a relatively slow acting thermite-like agent.
This would first be evidenced from outside the building by a downward movement of the antennae on the top.
Load would shift onto the perimeter columns caused by this induced failure and downward movement of the core, and this increased loading, combined with the same downward movement of the core causing the floors to pull in on the perimeter columns. would induce a buckling failure of the perimeter columns.
This failure would almost certainly take place firstly at the area previously weakened by aircraft impact as you say.
Once the buckle hinges had formed on a column or a small number of columns, their neighbours would have to handle an increased load and would fail in turn.
Downward movement of the upper section would begin and quickly follow the core downwards
At this point I would have to again disagree with you as I disagree with NIST who say that total collapse was inevitable once collapse had been initiated. I believe that additional energies would still have to be introduced and so.
Further charges of some description would still need to be used to take out other core sections and crucial load bearing points such as at the maintenance levels, where heavier beams were reportedly used.
The main load carrying columns were in the core, so with these taken out the perimeter columns wouldn't need as much possibly visible assistance than if they were the main load carriers.
My ideas are not fully formed and complete yet, but I don't think I've stepped outside the known data and evidence so far.

Gordon.
yesitdid
Collapse times paper.

Same author regarding NIST
zoktoberfest
Note; This is a recent post that has been edited. The lower half has been reworded.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5...&q=loose+change

If you scroll through the time code to about the 30:40 (min./sec.) point, you'll be just in front of a section which shows the collapse of the south tower from a south-westerly perspective. Not surprisingly, you see the upper section listing to the south. You also see, the inwardly tensiled, horizontal band effecting the south face along the peripheral support plane. NIST established its' newest theory around this phenomenon. Based on the rotation of the upper section about a compromised core , how could this section NOT be pulled in. From the perspective of the camera the upper section is rotating clockwise to the south (to the right). The lower part (of the upper section) has no choice but to move north or in to the building. It has to pull the local peripheral support with it, hence, creating that horizontal band of deformity. It's not primarily the heat of the fires that's doing this, it's the angular momentum of the upper section. Yet, from observing the inevitable consequences of the listing sector, just before collapse, they try to kill 2 birds with 1 stone. Explain away the rotational trajectory by using the observed effect as a cause of systemic core destruction. Just in the nick of time, the floor joists tensile the core against the periphery causing the lower section to fail before and almost as fast as the upper section is descending. The upper section's rotation is arrested, because, it's encountering reduced de-acceleration. The lower section isn't pushing back much, because it's under-going complete, systematic, structural failure from below. It would take time to neutralize the structural integrity of such a steel core. The initiation of compromise would have to be significantly out in front of the descending focus of destruction. As Gordon might say, 'what available mechanism could cause this'? That's the 64k question. Accepting, for the sake of argument, the theory of joist tensioning; how does the mechanism get far enough ahead, in order to present to the face of the collapsing event, a significantly reduced structural impedance? Yesitdid, put forth a concept of a hammer being welded to the nail head, immediately after impact. This I assume, implied a momentary impact window as the 2 objects would then shared a common downward inertia together. This also implies failure well before and below the impact site; as if the work bench, in pre failure mode, then failed completely, at the same moment you hit the nail into the wood that rested on its' surface. The hammer would follow the nail, for as long as the stroke would permit. Was the lower section in pre-failure mode?

In the first 2 seconds, there is explosive plumage, upwardly trajecting. This would imply, at least, immediate, massive, concussive deceleration. Yet the building fell like butter from beneath the impact site. Again, this doesn't make sense unless there was another mechanism involved.

The great NIST has spoken. Ignore the agency behind the curtain.
brian
Bush compounds "war on terrorism" lie with "foiled Los Angeles Terror Plot" story

Counter-terrorism officials question allegation

--Factual realities expose Bush’s lies

As amply documented at the independent web site you are now reading, and related web sites and publications, 9/11 was a crime that was planned, orchestrated and carried out by the US government and its proxies. There is exhaustive evidence exposing the fact that the 9/11 pretext is a lie, the "war on terrorism" is a lie,---

--Even as the lies continue to be compounded, distorted and spun in increasingly grotesque fashion by Bush and functionaries, the entire "war on terrorism" façade collapses with a simple glance at documented facts ---

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?con...&articleId=1950
RealityCheck
QUOTE (gordon+Feb 13 2006, 11:40 PM)
Gordon,
Why are you chasing inconsequential events?


I don't agree that it is inconsequential, since the ejections indicate that something was going on, at or around that area, at that time.  Identifying the cause would help to narrow down the possibilities

As can be seen in the pictures what the CT'ers refer to as "squibs" are inconsequential. Nothing happens on the floors they occur on, except that these very small blasts of air/debris occur.
The glass doesn't blow out, the walls don't buckle, no flashes are seen, etc etc.
We may NEVER figure out what they are, or what set of circumstances caused them (the possiblities are almost endless), but what IS obvious is they had nothing to do with the TOP DOWN COLLAPSE.


Again, this is our point of contention.  I can't believe that the possibilities are endless because I haven't heard a single plausible possibility and if they were nothing to do with the top down collapse what were they to do with?


The collapse CLEARLY begins at the point of impact.
Do you deny this?
If you don't, then explain any mechanism for preplanted explosives to cause the the failure at the point of impact, after burning for 1 hour after impact, and then to proceed from that point downward.
Arthur



No, on that point we do agree?
However, and remembering that I am no expert on controlled demolition, I would take out a lower section of the core, maybe with a relatively slow acting thermite-like agent. 
This would first be evidenced from outside the building by a downward movement of the antennae on the top.
Load would shift onto the perimeter columns caused by this induced failure and downward movement of the core, and this increased loading, combined with the same downward movement of the core causing the floors to pull in on the perimeter columns. would induce a buckling failure of the perimeter columns. 
This failure would almost certainly take place firstly at the area previously weakened by aircraft impact as you say. 
Once the buckle hinges had formed on a column or a small number of columns, their neighbours would have to handle an increased load and would fail in turn.
Downward movement of the upper section would begin and quickly follow the core downwards
At this point I would have to again disagree with you as I disagree with NIST who say that total collapse was inevitable once collapse had been initiated.  I believe that additional energies would still have to be introduced and so.
Further charges of some description would still need to be used to take out other core sections and crucial load bearing points such as at the maintenance levels, where heavier beams were reportedly used.
The main load carrying columns were in the core, so with these taken out the perimeter columns wouldn't need as much possibly visible assistance than if they were the main load carriers.
My ideas are not fully formed and complete yet, but I don't think I've stepped outside the known data and evidence so far.

Gordon.


Hi gordon; long time no speak!

I have read in this thread that, quite apart from interconnected LIFT and power/services shafts etc, there were ALSO MANY vertical riser shafts, ducts and conduits associated with forced ventilation systems. I also gather that by the time the collapse of the top half onto the bottom half, SMOKE would have long permeated throughout these spaces up and down the building.

That is, random and chaotic downdrafts, crossdrafts and updrafts through any one of these many 'opened' shafts, ducts etc. will have conducted smoke to OTHER floors. including floors ahead of the collapse front, even before the collapse proper, let alone once the upper section began compressing/pushing generally DOWN opportunistically into any such openings on higher floors?

So, when the collapse began, could random rubble penetration and or overpressures from the collapse front have acted on the OPENINGS of some of these ducts/conduits etc. on the collpase floors, and the overpressures 'conducted' along the affected ducts?....so as to 'issue' as observed at some weak points or other openings etc on certain floors below the collapse?

In fact, I can envisage many such chaotic smoke/dust laden air-mass EFFECT TRANSMISSIONS in such an interconnected (in many ways) structure. Can't you?

Of course, these would be in addition to the myriad possibilities involving power cables/fuseboxes and equipment which may have been shorted/arc heated and ignited/exploded, especially BULK office consumables in stationery/cleaning storerooms filled with volatile and flammable toner supplies and cleaning fluids etc.

I humbly suggest therefore that you try FIRST to envisage scenarios where these prosaic possibilities might transpire, and THEN go for the exotic and/or conspiracy scenarios. When, if you still honestly cannot explain some of these 'puffs' in these prosaic ways, I for one would be most interested in your scientific arguments AGAINST them. And of course, I would be equally interested in your scientific arguments FOR whatever exotic/conspiracy possibilities you CAN envisage as being more satisfactory/likely.

RealityCheck.
.
PS: EVERYONE....Gee, nothing much has changed since I was here last! People on both 'sides' still appear to be pretty much where they were at the beginning, heh? I'll visit again next week and see if anything's changed by THEN, hehehe. Ciao all!
.
brian
Kevin Ryan

Propping Up the War on Terror

-Ultimately, NIST failed to give any explanation for the dynamics of the towers as they fell, about how and why they dropped like rocks in free-fall. For both buildings, NIST simply stated that “once the upper building section began to move downwards . . ., global collapse ensued,” as if just saying so was enough. As for WTC7, NIST as of yet has not elaborated on its “working collapse hypothesis,” which was vaguely presented in June 2004.


The bottom line is that, after more than four years, it is still impossible for the government even to begin to explain the primary events that drive this War on Terrorism. --

http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/RyanK_PostingVersion.doc
gordon
Collapse times paper.


This paper quantifies strain energy requirements from a basis of the damage caused by the energy contained within a flying aircraft.
It is uncomfortable and cumbersome.

Would it not be more valid to use the failure loads and strain energy equations given by Bazant & Zhou ?

Gordon.
lenbrazil
QUOTE (Lon Waters+Feb 13 2006, 06:29 PM)
QUOTE (lenbrazil+Feb 13 2006, 10:53 AM)
QUOTE (Lon Waters+Feb 12 2006, 08:03 PM)

Here are some comparisons:

Empire State Building, NYC = 365, 000, 000 kg
Woolworth Building, NYC = 223, 000, 000 kg
John Hancock Tower, Chicago = 384, 000, 000 kg
Sears Tower Chicago = 440, 000, 000 kg.
Taipei 101 = 700, 000, 000 kg.
Petronas Twin Towers = 350, 000, 000 kg. (each)


The weights of the other buildings makes his calculations MORE resonable. Each WTC tower was much bigger than the other buildings.

Where do the estimates of the weights of steel and concrete etc used in each tower come from?

The Sears Tower is is taller and larger. The Petronas Towers are taller. The John Hancock is a little smaller at 100 stories. The Empire State used much more steel and concrete for its height than the WTC towers. Using these numbers suggest (to me) a 300-400 million kg ballpark as a starting point.

I am not sure where the numbers for the mass of the steel, concrete, etc. come from (beyond the post I read) which is why I sought help here.

Size of course does not mean the same thing as height. Size is height x width x depth and the floors of the WTC were larger than those of the other buildings. Size for a building can be calculated a few ways such as total floor space and the WTC had almost double the floor space of the 2nd place Empire State Building. Perhaps a better way would be cubic space but I couldn’t find any statistics for that. If some one wants to roughly estimate that they can divide the floor space by the number of floors (to get the average space per floor) and multiply by the height. Stats are from Wikipedia and Emporius heights are to the top of the roof. At 510 million kilos the WTC weighed less per square or cubic meter/foot than the other buildings so lacking any contradictory data there is no reason to doubt the figure.

Building --- height floors/feet --- floor space (sq. feet) --- weight (millions of kilos)
Empire State Building --- 102/1250 --- 2,200,000 --- 365
Woolworth Building --- 60/792 --- ? --- 223
John Hancock Tower --- 100/1127 --- 260,126 --- 384
Sears Tower --- 110/1450 --- 418,064 --- 440
Taipei 101 --- 101/1470 --- 412,500 --- 700
Petronas Twin Towers --- 88/1345 --- 395,000 --- 350
WTC --- 110/1368 --- 3,800,000 --- 510


lenbrazil
QUOTE (brian+Feb 14 2006, 12:33 AM)
Kevin Ryan

Propping Up the War on Terror

-Ultimately, NIST failed to give any explanation for the dynamics of the towers as they fell, about how and why they dropped like rocks in free-fall. For both buildings, NIST simply stated that “once the upper building section began to move downwards . . ., global collapse ensued,” as if just saying so was enough. As for WTC7, NIST as of yet has not elaborated on its “working collapse hypothesis,” which was vaguely presented in June 2004.


The bottom line is that, after more than four years, it is still impossible for the government even to begin to explain the primary events that drive this War on Terrorism. --

http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/RyanK_PostingVersion.doc

Kevin Ryan is what the ex-head of a water testing lab!!!

When you guys get a civil engineer or architect to write a paper let me know. LOL
computer fogie
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 13 2006, 05:48 PM)
...very small blasts of air/debris occur.

The glass doesn't blow out..

What? They're clearly powerful explosions. Air? Take another look, people. They're explosive discharges of debris, forcefully ejecting a substantial amount of material.

Here we go again with this guy (a shill proven to be connected with the government in another thread) dismissing the most damning evidence about 9/11. Use your own eyes, and your own mind. Doin't let people like this guy tell you what you see and how you should think. Look at as many pics of these explosions, occurring several floors below the collapsing area, as you can. Do you really think you see inconsequential "puffs of dust"?
Foxx
QUOTE
Originally posted by adoucette
What lies were exposed Foxx?

I said I was NEW TO THE ISSUE THAT GOVT HAD BLOWN UP THE WTC TOWERS.

I posted the links to www.airdisaster.com where I had posted extensively on AVIATION related issues involving 9/11.

No one has posted anything to indicate that statement was not true.

What do you mean by Working on the side of the Govt?

You mean if I don't believe the BS you are trying to sell I'm working for them or on their behalf?

Arthur


Uhhhh, yeah --- pretty much 'in a nutshell' there arthur... biggrin.gif

but it goes a LOT deeper than that.

So let me get YOUR STORY straight here...

You admit to having a 'history' of posting at 'air-disaster.com'... arguing with "CT's" concerning AIRCRAFT ISSUES related to 9/11 events (a peripheral 'straw-man' issue probably fostered by the same spook organizations as were behind the attacks in the first place)...

yet (you claim that) in ALL of your research (and wonderful 'rebuttals' related to THAT issue)...

...That you had NO IDEA that 9/11 activists were also claiming that the Towers were brought down by explosives???

Come, come, now...

most of here are not teenagers, nor are the majority of us in the habit of buying bridges.

You are using semantics again...

You claim (paraphrased)..."I ONLY argued against (was aware) that CT's claimed there were aircraft issues related to the pentagon re: 9/11. I had NO IDEA that 'some' were claiming the towers were brought down by explosives"

Do you really expect us to believe that you had never heard of related "CT" theories... that there were 'issues' related to the demolition of the towers after all your research into the aircraft issues ???

Pffftttt.

You'd be a great hit (and fit right in) at AH spreading that kind of manure.

So in other words, you are implying that you are just 'Honest Joe Six-Pack' and had no inkling (whilst arguing vehemently AGAINST 9/11 'aircraft issues') that there was Anything Else suspicious re: 9/11? ...You were SIMPLY arguing THEN based upon your Aircraft 'Expertise' biggrin.gif

D'uuuhhh Ohhhh---KAY, buddy.

NOW, suddenly you are an 'expert' on structural engineering and all things related to the towers (in the last 6 months)...

Amazing... you are a man of many 'talents'... the foremost of which it seems (you claim)... is 'arguing with CT'ists' on ANY issue based upon your 'expertise' in many realms. Len will be proud biggrin.gif

Ok... I'm just trying to catch up here... I'm about 1/2 dozen pages behind, and will try to catch up with you later on this.

I note that gordon has posted a 'little something' regarding the ol' Urology issue.

None of you gov't CT'ers have addressed that issue at all, have you? Caught with your pants down, so just ignore it... ehhh???

http://65.217.248.202/

I'm still researching how Schneiby got the following 'link' attached...

http://65.217.248.202/911columns.wmv

Don't bother trying that link NOW... it was dead within a day of Schneiby posting it (once he was caught)... or maybe it's back up now? --- I'll have to check.

I'll post this now, and will see you later when I catch up on the numerous pages and bs I'm behind in. biggrin.gif


Guest
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 13 2006, 10:48 PM)
Gordon,
Why are you chasing inconsequential events?

As can be seen in the pictures what the CT'ers refer to as "squibs" are inconsequential. Nothing happens on the floors they occur on, except that these very small blasts of air/debris occur.

The glass doesn't blow out, the walls don't buckle, no flashes are seen, etc etc.

We may NEVER figure out what they are, or what set of circumstances caused them (the possiblities are almost endless), but what IS obvious is they had nothing to do with the TOP DOWN COLLAPSE.

The collapse CLEARLY begins at the point of impact.

Do you deny this?

If you don't, then explain any mechanism for preplanted explosives to cause the the failure at the point of impact, after burning for 1 hour after impact, and then to proceed from that point downward.

Arthur

How do "air/debris" blasts occur without the glass being blown out?
cosmo
QUOTE (frater plecticus+Feb 13 2006, 11:31 PM)
heroin production has actually substantially increased since we "liberated" it. The taliban are vile misogynous fundamentalists, without a doubt, but they had actually stopped a great deal of the heroin production in Afghanistan.


September 27, 2001: ISI Has Connections to Taliban, Drug Trade, CIA
The Sydney Morning Herald discusses the connections between the CIA and Pakistan's ISI, and the ISI's long-standing control over the Taliban. Drugs are a big part of their operation: “opium cultivation and heroin production in Pakistan's northern tribal belt and adjoining Afghanistan were a vital offshoot of the ISI-CIA cooperation. It succeeded in turning some of the Soviet troops into addicts. Heroin sales in Europe and the US, carried out through an elaborate web of deception, transport networks, couriers, and payoffs, offset the cost of the decade-long war in Afghanistan.” [Sydney Morning Herald, 9/27/01]

http://cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/20...eymh092701.html

Afghanistan retakes heroin crown
Heroin manufacturer
Production has surged since the end of the Taliban regime
Afghanistan retook its place as the world's leading producer of heroin last year, after US-led forces overthrew the Taleban which had banned cultivation of opium poppies.

The finding was made in a key drug report, distributed in Kabul on Sunday by the US State Department, which supports almost identical findings by the United Nations last week.

Low-grade heroin is refined in Afghanistan from opium, which is manufactured from the extract of poppies.

"The size of the opium harvest in 2002 makes Afghanistan the world's leading opium producer," the report said.

The International Narcotics Control Strategy Report said the area of land used to cultivate opium poppies reached 30,750 hectares, compared with 1,685 hectares in 2001.

Afghanistan overtook Burma - whose production fell for the sixth straight year, to 630 tonnes - as the leading opium producer.

The British government is the leading sponsor of the anti-drugs campaign in Afghanistan.

Contradictory claims

The report said fighting illegal drug trafficking was key to the US war on terrorism.

Heroin manufacturer
Production has surged since the end of the Taliban

"The US campaign against global terrorism in 2002 highlighted the importance of our international drug control programs," it said.

Despite its own figures showing the Taleban had cut Afghanistan's heroin production by about 95%, the report claimed that heroin had "financed the former Taleban regime".

The UN International Narcotics Control Board (INCB) report, released on 26 February, said that Afghanistan produced 3,400 tonnes last year, up from 185 tonnes in 2001.

While the US report praised US-backed Afghan president Hamid Karzai for the measures he has introduced to cut heroin production, the UN report said his two executive orders had no practical impact.

Growing problem

The Pentagon and the State Department are reportedly split over how heroin production should be tackled in the country.

Taliban anti-drugs sign
The Taliban banned production

While the Pentagon insists that the military operations in Afghanistan should be limited to fighting terrorists, while the State Department thinks armed forces should tackle opium production.

The US report also praised Pakistan for "excellent" co-operation with US anti-drugs efforts.

Last week the head of Pakistan's Anti-Narcotics Force, Major General Zafar Abbas, said that heroin production in Afghanistan this year is expected to reach more than 4,000 tonnes.

Russian guards patrolling Afghanistan's 1,340-kilometre border with Tajikistan, the main transport route for Afghan drugs to European markets, have seized 1.5 tonnes of heroin already this year.

Last year, Russian and Tajik border guards seized 6.7 tonnes of drugs.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2814861.stm
Foxx
QUOTE
How do "air/debris" blasts occur without the glass being blown out?


This is very understandable when you have knowledge of the true construction of the building. If the 'squibbs / puffs of dust' were evidence of explosions within the CORE... (obviously they were NOT explosions at the perimeter columns) then the open floor areas between the core and the perimeter columns would not be the main ejection points for these 'overpressures'... hence windows on entire floors would not necessarily be blown out...

ONLY in the direct path leading from the core to the perimeter columns which was available would these 'squibb / overpressures' find an escape path.

In order to actually MAP such routes, we would need to have access to the building blueprints (which could tell us what walls were inhibiting the 'squibb / overpressures' and /or directing their path to certain areas).

To claim that localized explosions within the core would 'automatically expand outwards throughout the full open floor-plan' (and therefore blow out ALL windows on a certain floor)...

is a non-starter, non-issue.

The above postulation / question is worthless as 'evidence' of anything.

OK, I've caught up now. All I've seen is excellent logic & reasoning from the 'tin-foil' hat crowd, and boogie-woogie obfuscations from adoucette and the rest of the gov't supporters...

Of course... that is a subjective opinion and any unbiased reader of this thread will have to determine for themselves WHO here has 'agendas'. biggrin.gif

Well, it's back to investigating the Urology site for me...

Later







reasonwhy
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 13 2006, 07:30 AM)
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Feb 13 2006, 11:15 AM)
They had the right software, the NIST report says they had to change the results to match what was observed. The Post processing is fast unless the results have to be changed. Then you would have to run the expensive solver again.

Change the RESULTS to match the observed?????

Please provide reference to where NIST made this statement.

Everything I read was the opposite, they changed INPUT until the model's output results matched what was observed. As in table 6.5 on page 109 where they varied the impact speed, vertical and lateral approach angle etc until the impact damage from the model matched the actual damage as seen in photographs.

Arthur

Most results, when not matching observation were changed buy altering the input parameters. I thought this was obvious to anyone who read the report. The FEA model for initial collapse could have been changed after compiling because NIST refuses to release the data. NIST removed the hat truss and spandrels from the FEA model yet state this was how the load was transferred . How they came to this conclusion is not clear.

NIST categorized important parameters into least sever, middle, and most sever. NIST then used the most sever for every case. When the most sever was not consistent with observation NIST Changed the sub-component to match observation, always using the most sever case within the range of physical reality.
adoucette
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 14 2006, 12:19 AM)
QUOTE
How do "air/debris" blasts occur without the glass being blown out?


This is very understandable when you have knowledge of the true construction of the building. If the 'squibbs / puffs of dust' were evidence of explosions within the CORE... (obviously they were NOT explosions at the perimeter columns) then the open floor areas between the core and the perimeter columns would not be the main ejection points for these 'overpressures'... hence windows on entire floors would not necessarily be blown out...

ONLY in the direct path leading from the core to the perimeter columns which was available would these 'squibb / overpressures' find an escape path.

In order to actually MAP such routes, we would need to have access to the building blueprints (which could tell us what walls were inhibiting the 'squibb / overpressures' and /or directing their path to certain areas).

To claim that localized explosions within the core would 'automatically expand outwards throughout the full open floor-plan' (and therefore blow out ALL windows on a certain floor)...

is a non-starter, non-issue.

The above postulation / question is worthless as 'evidence' of anything.

OK, I've caught up now. All I've seen is excellent logic & reasoning from the 'tin-foil' hat crowd, and boogie-woogie obfuscations from adoucette and the rest of the gov't supporters...

Of course... that is a subjective opinion and any unbiased reader of this thread will have to determine for themselves WHO here has 'agendas'. biggrin.gif

Well, it's back to investigating the Urology site for me...

Later

More Foxx BS.

Severing ONE column would do nothing.

As we could see from the plane crash, severing up to 9 columns would not cause a LOCAL collapse.

Thus for your "squibs" to accomplish ANYTHING they have to sever at least 10 columns, including at least 2 of the larger Corner Core columns.

YOU have been arguing the Core Columns are not wimpy structures. In fact we know that they are thicker than the perimeter columns, so at the lower floor levels where the "Squib" is seen, we are talking about 10 columns made of ~ 1" thick steel.

If don't friggin matter WHAT is between the columns and the windows. You set off HE blasts to cut even a FEW columns and there will be NO windows left.

Arthur
adoucette
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 13 2006, 11:28 PM)
QUOTE
Originally posted by adoucette
What lies were exposed Foxx?

I said I was NEW TO THE ISSUE THAT GOVT HAD BLOWN UP THE WTC TOWERS.

I posted the links to www.airdisaster.com where I had posted extensively on AVIATION related issues involving 9/11.

No one has posted anything to indicate that statement was not true.

What do you mean by Working on the side of the Govt?

You mean if I don't believe the BS you are trying to sell I'm working for them or on their behalf?

Arthur


Uhhhh, yeah --- pretty much 'in a nutshell' there arthur... biggrin.gif

but it goes a LOT deeper than that.

So let me get YOUR STORY straight here...

You admit to having a 'history' of posting at 'air-disaster.com'... arguing with "CT's" concerning AIRCRAFT ISSUES related to 9/11 events (a peripheral 'straw-man' issue probably fostered by the same spook organizations as were behind the attacks in the first place)...

yet (you claim that) in ALL of your research (and wonderful 'rebuttals' related to THAT issue)...

...That you had NO IDEA that 9/11 activists were also claiming that the Towers were brought down by explosives???

Come, come, now...

most of here are not teenagers, nor are the majority of us in the habit of buying bridges.

You are using semantics again...

You claim (paraphrased)..."I ONLY argued against (was aware) that CT's claimed there were aircraft issues related to the pentagon re: 9/11. I had NO IDEA that 'some' were claiming the towers were brought down by explosives"

Do you really expect us to believe that you had never heard of related "CT" theories... that there were 'issues' related to the demolition of the towers after all your research into the aircraft issues ???

Pffftttt.

You'd be a great hit (and fit right in) at AH spreading that kind of manure.

So in other words, you are implying that you are just 'Honest Joe Six-Pack' and had no inkling (whilst arguing vehemently AGAINST 9/11 'aircraft issues') that there was Anything Else suspicious re: 9/11? ...You were SIMPLY arguing THEN based upon your Aircraft 'Expertise' biggrin.gif

D'uuuhhh Ohhhh---KAY, buddy.

NOW, suddenly you are an 'expert' on structural engineering and all things related to the towers (in the last 6 months)...

Amazing... you are a man of many 'talents'... the foremost of which it seems (you claim)... is 'arguing with CT'ists' on ANY issue based upon your 'expertise' in many realms. Len will be proud biggrin.gif


Foxx,

I published the friggin link to www.airdisaster.com.

My posts are still on the board.

You can search using my name, since its the SAME as here.

But feel free to search for yourself.

Loser.

Arthur



Lon Waters
QUOTE (lenbrazil+Feb 14 2006, 01:04 AM)
Size of course ...

Building --- height floors/feet --- floor space (sq. feet) --- weight (millions of kilos)
Sears Tower ---  110/1450 --- 418,064 --- 440
WTC --- 110/1368 --- 3,800,000 ---  510

Well, okay, so I thought I could get a simple, straightforward answer as to the mass of the WTC towers with perhaps a citation or 12 with some hard data. Instead I have.... well you can see.

I will assume this was not meant to be intentionally misleading and is just an honest mistake. The number you give for the floor space for the Sears Tower is in square meters, as it would appear all are except for the WTC which is given in square feet. The Sears Tower floor space is about 4.5 million square feet. Should we take it that the WTC tower mass should be less than the 440 million kg of the Sears Tower?

In fact, the most often cited number I can find for the WTC mass is 500,000 tons which is roughly 450 million kg. However, I can't find any further data to back that number up. For now, I will defer to this thread which sums the issue up pretty well:

http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=4299
adoucette
QUOTE (gordon+)
However, and remembering that I am no expert on controlled demolition, I would take out a lower section of the core, maybe with a relatively slow acting thermite-like agent.
This would first be evidenced from outside the building by a downward movement of the antennae on the top.
Load would shift onto the perimeter columns caused by this induced failure and downward movement of the core, and this increased loading, combined with the same downward movement of the core causing the floors to pull in on the perimeter columns. would induce a buckling failure of the perimeter columns.
This failure would almost certainly take place firstly at the area previously weakened by aircraft impact as you say


Don't agree with this conclusion at all.

You cut the lower section of the core and you would pull ALL the floors down, which would shatter windows throughout the towers, I think that it would be VERY visible from the outside, yet we don't see evidence of it.

Secondly there is little reason to think that this would cause failure at the impact floors. Intact floor trusses that had not been heated being in better shape to distort their associated perimeter columns as they were pulled down by the collapsing center columns.

Seems you are GRASPING for a solution that fits, even though the facts point to a much more mundane set of factors.

Arthur



Foxx
Re: The Urology website (which the Schneiby crew used to first promote the 'absolute proof' that the perimeter columns were 'pulled in')...

I checked the Internet Archives to see the 'history' of this 'site'.

the Internet Archives (or the Wayback Machine) --- ( http://www.archive.org/web/web.php ) is an internet caching service who claim...

QUOTE
About the Wayback Machine --- Browse through 55 billion web pages archived from 1996 to a few months ago. To start surfing the Wayback, type in the web address of a site or page where you would like to start, and press enter. Then select from the archived dates available. The resulting pages point to other archived pages at as close a date as possible.


Here is what came up...

http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/Urology_site.jpg

User posted image

As can be seen this 'Urology' site has only surfaced on the web since Apr 12, 2004.

It is quite plausible that these 'doctors' only got 'web-savvy' in 2004. Let's not hold that against them. biggrin.gif

The same page appears as the homepage of these 'Urology doctors' since that time...

http://65.217.248.202/

Feel free to call me a 'nut-case', but this is an odd 'address' for a 'homepage' for doctors seeking to publicize their 'services' on the internet.

It is obviously nothing more than an IP address... Hardly 'easy' to find for someone looking for 'urology' services.

If I was looking for 'urology' services I would tend to google-up 'Urology' as a first search.

Anyone legitimately looking for business will generally tie their profession somewhere in the search terms...

i.e.

- Urology.com

- Urology.org

- Urology-are-us.com

- etc, etc, etc.

Maybe these 'doctors of urology' are just 'idiots' ???...

or maybe something smells fishy in Denmark???

On the other hand, we would not expect 'doctors' to be highly proficient 'web-masters' (and as we would assume that money would NOT be an obstacle for them), we would presume IF they were looking to expand their business via the internet... they would have no problem hiring web-savvy people to 'get their message / services OUT... wouldn't YOU think ???... So that potential customers could EASILY FIND them on the web.

I am beginning to agree with the suspicions of gordon...

Have we uncovered a 'nest' ???


biggrin.gif

I don't expect everyone to understand what I am talking about here... but SOME WILL...

Schneiby promotes Urology site...
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...indpost&p=59331

Foxx Reply... ( Jan 30 2006, 03:18 AM / page - 290 )
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...indpost&p=59455

Gee... Ol' Schneiby seemed to fade out 'quietly' after that... (amidst death threaths and pending lawsuit threats... biggrin.gif)

Oh, I forgot about that... How's the lawsuit coming, Schneibster???


I Still have Not received anything from your 'lawyers' yet biggrin.gif

I expect to see your new puppet soon, though.


adoucette
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Feb 14 2006, 12:27 AM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 13 2006, 07:30 AM)
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Feb 13 2006, 11:15 AM)
They had the right software, the NIST report says they had to change the results to match what was observed. The Post processing is fast unless the results have to be changed. Then you would have to run the expensive solver again.

Change the RESULTS to match the observed?????

Please provide reference to where NIST made this statement.

Everything I read was the opposite, they changed INPUT until the model's output results matched what was observed. As in table 6.5 on page 109 where they varied the impact speed, vertical and lateral approach angle etc until the impact damage from the model matched the actual damage as seen in photographs.

Arthur

Most results, when not matching observation were changed buy altering the input parameters. I thought this was obvious to anyone who read the report. The FEA model for initial collapse could have been changed after compiling because NIST refuses to release the data. NIST removed the hat truss and spandrels from the FEA model yet state this was how the load was transferred . How they came to this conclusion is not clear.

NIST categorized important parameters into least sever, middle, and most sever. NIST then used the most sever for every case. When the most sever was not consistent with observation NIST Changed the sub-component to match observation, always using the most sever case within the range of physical reality.

Are you saying the models ARE wrong, and if so be specific as to why.

From the reports I read there were only two levels for each tower. Not 3 and furthermore, the differences between the two are relatively minor, thus your catagorization is flawed, i.e the impact speed difference is less than 10% in the A vs B cases. The Lateral approach angles didn't vary at all while the vertical approach angle varied only 3 degrees. Aircraft weight varied only 5% etc etc.

The point was the INPUT was changed until the model agreed with observed. It doesn't matter which of the variable sets were used if they were the ones to produce the most consistant results when compared to reality.

Arthur
adoucette
QUOTE (computer fogie+Feb 13 2006, 11:22 PM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 13 2006, 05:48 PM)
...very small blasts of air/debris occur.

The glass doesn't blow out..

What? They're clearly powerful explosions. Air? Take another look, people. They're explosive discharges of debris, forcefully ejecting a substantial amount of material.

Here we go again with this guy (a shill proven to be connected with the government in another thread) dismissing the most damning evidence about 9/11. Use your own eyes, and your own mind. Doin't let people like this guy tell you what you see and how you should think. Look at as many pics of these explosions, occurring several floors below the collapsing area, as you can. Do you really think you see inconsequential "puffs of dust"?

CF

The blasts of air/debris ARE little in comparison to what one would expect if HIGH EXPLOSIVES were used to cut at least 10 LARGE CORE COLUMNS (we know the building will stand with most of one side of perimeter columns cut and 9 core columns cut, so cutting less than 9 core columns, below the point the plane impacted, is pointless).

And as far as "proven to be connected to the govt in another thread" CF you are nothing but a lying Sack o' Shitt.

Arthur
yesitdid



You can also go to http://www.urologyspecialtycare.com/index.html.
Its the same page and quite well titled.

Perhaps you'd like to contact
webmaster@urologyspecialtycare.com to clear up your questions about the site.
Guest
User posted imageuser posted image


user posted image


user posted image
Foxx
QUOTE (yesitdid+Feb 14 2006, 05:59 AM)
You can also go to http://www.urologyspecialtycare.com/index.html.
Its the same page and quite well titled.

Perhaps you'd like to contact
webmaster@urologyspecialtycare.com to clear up your questions about the site.

Well... YEAH !!!

THAT clears up LOTS, YID.

Why don't I (or you) just email the CIA or Homeland Security and ask them if they are playing games?

Grow up.


yesitdid
The 'squibs' now seem to come down to that they were evidence of
a ) the blowing out of one interior column
OR
b ) blowing out of many columns

If a ), then why bother? One column will make little difference and then still requires that gravity destroy the remaining columns.

If b ), then it is ridiculous to expect that this tiny expelling of dust is the result of a truly effective cutting of several columns.

Of course we may be regaled yet again by the amazingly precisely timed cutting charges that are hidden by the falling dust cloud. This begs the question then as to what the 'squibs' are and why they are set off ahead of a collapse that is actually being driven by much more massive explosives.


Will some non-believer of the official history of the events of 9/11 please provide a rational time line of the alleged explosives that fits the observed collapse.
newton
the reason they are not from an air duct, is because the pressure would equalise when it hit the open acre X 1 story volume of air.
that's the 'syringe theory'. it doesn't jibe.
they were CLEARLY explosions.
reasonwhy
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 13 2006, 09:44 PM)
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Feb 14 2006, 12:27 AM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 13 2006, 07:30 AM)
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Feb 13 2006, 11:15 AM)
They had the right software, the NIST report says they had to change the results to match what was observed. The Post processing is fast unless the results have to be changed. Then you would have to run the expensive solver again.

Change the RESULTS to match the observed?????

Please provide reference to where NIST made this statement.

Everything I read was the opposite, they changed INPUT until the model's output results matched what was observed. As in table 6.5 on page 109 where they varied the impact speed, vertical and lateral approach angle etc until the impact damage from the model matched the actual damage as seen in photographs.

Arthur

Most results, when not matching observation were changed buy altering the input parameters. I thought this was obvious to anyone who read the report. The FEA model for initial collapse could have been changed after compiling because NIST refuses to release the data. NIST removed the hat truss and spandrels from the FEA model yet state this was how the load was transferred . How they came to this conclusion is not clear.

NIST categorized important parameters into least sever, middle, and most sever. NIST then used the most sever for every case. When the most sever was not consistent with observation NIST Changed the sub-component to match observation, always using the most sever case within the range of physical reality.

Are you saying the models ARE wrong, and if so be specific as to why.

From the reports I read there were only two levels for each tower. Not 3 and furthermore, the differences between the two are relatively minor, thus your catagorization is flawed, i.e the impact speed difference is less than 10% in the A vs B cases. The Lateral approach angles didn't vary at all while the vertical approach angle varied only 3 degrees. Aircraft weight varied only 5% etc etc.

The point was the INPUT was changed until the model agreed with observed. It doesn't matter which of the variable sets were used if they were the ones to produce the most consistant results when compared to reality.

Arthur

I thought you said you read the report:

"The investigation team then defined three cases for each building by combining the middle, less severse and more severe values of the influential variables.Upon preliminary examination of the middle cases, it became clear the towers would likely remain standing"

Final NIST report
Chapter 6, paragragh 2 page 144 .
6.14.1

Federal Building and Fire Safety Investigation of the World Trade Center Disaster: Final Report of the National Construction Safety Team on the Collapses of the World Trade Center Tower

http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1CollapseofTowers.pdf

Corrected for spelling errors
Not able to cut and paste report.
yesitdid
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 14 2006, 06:09 AM)
QUOTE (yesitdid+Feb 14 2006, 05:59 AM)
You can also go to http://www.urologyspecialtycare.com/index.html.
Its the same page and quite well titled.

Perhaps you'd like to contact
webmaster@urologyspecialtycare.com  to clear up your questions about the site.

Well... YEAH !!!

THAT clears up LOTS, YID.

Why don't I (or you) just email the CIA or Homeland Security and ask them if they are playing games?

Grow up.

AHAHAHA

,,, and you're going to do what in your 'investigation' of this Foxx?

Perhaps you'd like to travel to NY/NJ and visit the offices and go in for a prostrate exam. Nah, any spook can stick his gloved fingers up your butt. Better to ask for a endoscopic exam, that takes a real doctor. It ain't comfortble mind you but I am sure you are ready to take one for the team.
yesitdid
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Feb 14 2006, 06:13 AM)
I thought you said you read the report:

"The investigation team then defined three cases for each building by combining the middle, less severs and more sever values of the influential variables."


Chapter 6, paragragh 2 page 144 . 
6.14.1

Considering you consistently misspell the word 'severe' I have trouble believing that yours is a direct quote.
Chapter 6, paragraph 2 page 144 .
6.14.1 ,,, of what document, what is the http address please?
cosmo
Air pressure from collapsing floors could theoretically explain the expulsion of air from floors well ahead of the collapse. There is no doubt about that.

What it CANNOT explain is the expulsion of DUST AND DEBRIS that is clearly present coming from floors that were (supposedly) yet to suffer any damage.
Foxx
QUOTE
Originally posted by arthur
More Foxx BS.

Severing ONE column would do nothing.


Ehhhh ??? Who said anything about ONE column ???

PS --- excellent point by Cosmo above. Any 'valid' or 'reasonable' explainations from the Scooby-Doo club ? biggrin.gif

Coastal
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 14 2006, 05:29 AM)
Re: The Urology website (which the Schneiby crew used to first promote the 'absolute proof' that the perimeter columns were 'pulled in')...

I checked the Internet Archives to see the 'history' of this 'site'.

the Internet Archives (or the Wayback Machine) --- ( http://www.archive.org/web/web.php ) is an internet caching service who claim...

QUOTE
About the Wayback Machine --- Browse through 55 billion web pages archived from 1996 to a few months ago. To start surfing the Wayback, type in the web address of a site or page where you would like to start, and press enter. Then select from the archived dates available. The resulting pages point to other archived pages at as close a date as possible.


Here is what came up...

http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/Urology_site.jpg

User posted image

As can be seen this 'Urology' site has only surfaced on the web since Apr 12, 2004.

It is quite plausible that these 'doctors' only got 'web-savvy' in 2004. Let's not hold that against them. biggrin.gif

The same page appears as the homepage of these 'Urology doctors' since that time...

http://65.217.248.202/

Feel free to call me a 'nut-case', but this is an odd 'address' for a 'homepage' for doctors seeking to publicize their 'services' on the internet.

It is obviously nothing more than an IP address... Hardly 'easy' to find for someone looking for 'urology' services.

If I was looking for 'urology' services I would tend to google-up 'Urology' as a first search.

Anyone legitimately looking for business will generally tie their profession somewhere in the search terms...

i.e.

- Urology.com

- Urology.org

- Urology-are-us.com

- etc, etc, etc.

Maybe these 'doctors of urology' are just 'idiots' ???...

or maybe something smells fishy in Denmark???

On the other hand, we would not expect 'doctors' to be highly proficient 'web-masters' (and as we would assume that money would NOT be an obstacle for them), we would presume IF they were looking to expand their business via the internet... they would have no problem hiring web-savvy people to 'get their message / services OUT... wouldn't YOU think ???... So that potential customers could EASILY FIND them on the web.

I am beginning to agree with the suspicions of gordon...

Have we uncovered a 'nest' ???


biggrin.gif

I don't expect everyone to understand what I am talking about here... but SOME WILL...

Schneiby promotes Urology site...
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...indpost&p=59331

Foxx Reply... ( Jan 30 2006, 03:18 AM / page - 290 )
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...indpost&p=59455

Gee... Ol' Schneiby seemed to fade out 'quietly' after that... (amidst death threaths and pending lawsuit threats... biggrin.gif)

Oh, I forgot about that... How's the lawsuit coming, Schneibster???


I Still have Not received anything from your 'lawyers' yet biggrin.gif

I expect to see your new puppet soon, though.

ARGHH!!

I'm dyin' here!!

tongue.gif

Foxx breaks up a nest of spooks with the Wayback Machine!!

Here....

http://www.dnsstuff.com/

Knock yourself out, Sherlock.

That ought to feed your paranoia to the point that you'll be institutionalized within the month.

newton
QUOTE (Guest+Feb 14 2006, 03:37 AM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 13 2006, 10:48 PM)
Gordon,
Why are you chasing inconsequential events?

As can be seen in the pictures what the CT'ers refer to as "squibs" are inconsequential. Nothing happens on the floors they occur on, except that these very small blasts of air/debris occur.

The glass doesn't blow out, the walls don't buckle, no flashes are seen, etc etc.

We may NEVER figure out what they are, or what set of circumstances caused them (the possiblities are almost endless), but what IS obvious is they had nothing to do with the TOP DOWN COLLAPSE.

The collapse CLEARLY begins at the point of impact.

Do you deny this?

If you don't, then explain any mechanism for preplanted explosives to cause the the failure at the point of impact, after burning for 1 hour after impact, and then to proceed from that point downward.

Arthur

How do "air/debris" blasts occur without the glass being blown out?

well guest, basically it's because arthur said so. you shouldn't doubt him. he's very objective.


these VERY SMALL blasts of air.
no blown out glass. no powder in the plume(air blast).

HAHAHAHA!

the air that diffuses through the glass by light speed osmosis, MORONS!
porous polarised glass, and polarised air. polarised air passes through porous polarised glass like a hot knife through butter, leaving the glass perfectly intact, and the high pressure PINPOINT of air blast blah blah blah.

arthur, you MUST work for NIST, if you don't already.

here's the mechanism.

they put a homing beacon on the floors that were struck by the planes. the remote control systems used on all three 'missile' planes were the same technology. this explains the pilots' 'skill'.
as the planes approached the tower, remote observers triggered the explosions in the basement, which removed most of the REDUNANCY from the support of the towers, but left them standing.
they waited an hour, and pressed the GO button which blew out more core columns, (which may have FAILED for some of the bombs planned at the beginning of the sequence, in the first collapse, which required shoulder fired missiles down the ONE freight elevator shaft, from the helicopter which hovered over it SECONDS before the collapse, exibiting NUMEROUS bright flashes, visible from hoboken on the 911eyewitness video).
for the second tower, they instead were able to just use the remote control, as planned. the recording goes BOOOM(tower still standing), and then some few seconds of silence, and then BOOOOOOOOOOOOM(tower collapsing very quickly).
these events(booms) registered similiar SOUND energy, in both spectrum and magnitude.
Guest_guest
2 questions. assuming there were demolition charges in the towers, how in the hell did they not go off right after the giant Molotov cocktails landed in their laps. Second, it would take weeks to set up the towers for demolition, and a lot of drilling and cutting that would have made a lot of noise and left the buildings structurally insecure. No to mention all the wires you have to string along the floors and walls. How could all that happen without anyone noticing.
reasonwhy
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Feb 13 2006, 10:13 PM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 13 2006, 09:44 PM)
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Feb 14 2006, 12:27 AM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 13 2006, 07:30 AM)
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Feb 13 2006, 11:15 AM)
They had the right software, the NIST report says they had to change the results to match what was observed. The Post processing is fast unless the results have to be changed. Then you would have to run the expensive solver again.

Change the RESULTS to match the observed?????

Please provide reference to where NIST made this statement.

Everything I read was the opposite, they changed INPUT until the model's output results matched what was observed. As in table 6.5 on page 109 where they varied the impact speed, vertical and lateral approach angle etc until the impact damage from the model matched the actual damage as seen in photographs.

Arthur

Most results, when not matching observation were changed buy altering the input parameters. I thought this was obvious to anyone who read the report. The FEA model for initial collapse could have been changed after compiling because NIST refuses to release the data. NIST removed the hat truss and spandrels from the FEA model yet state this was how the load was transferred . How they came to this conclusion is not clear.

NIST categorized important parameters into least sever, middle, and most sever. NIST then used the most sever for every case. When the most sever was not consistent with observation NIST Changed the sub-component to match observation, always using the most sever case within the range of physical reality.

Are you saying the models ARE wrong, and if so be specific as to why.

From the reports I read there were only two levels for each tower. Not 3 and furthermore, the differences between the two are relatively minor, thus your catagorization is flawed, i.e the impact speed difference is less than 10% in the A vs B cases. The Lateral approach angles didn't vary at all while the vertical approach angle varied only 3 degrees. Aircraft weight varied only 5% etc etc.

The point was the INPUT was changed until the model agreed with observed. It doesn't matter which of the variable sets were used if they were the ones to produce the most consistant results when compared to reality.

Arthur

I thought you said you read the report:

"The investigation team then defined three cases for each building by combining the middle, less severse and more severe values of the influential variables.Upon preliminary examination of the middle cases, it became clear the towers would likely remain standing"

Final NIST report
Chapter 6, paragragh 2 page 144 .
6.14.1

Federal Building and Fire Safety Investigation of the World Trade Center Disaster: Final Report of the National Construction Safety Team on the Collapses of the World Trade Center Tower

http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1CollapseofTowers.pdf

Corrected for spelling errors
Not able to cut and paste report.

This was on page 144 you referenced for Gordon to read. Are you more then one person Arthur?

QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 13 2006, 06:36 AM )
The floors becoming disconnected was NOT a precondition to collapse.

Failure of the Perimeter Columns followed by failure of the Core Columns was the cause of the collapse. NIST never mentions the floors becoming disconnected prior to the initiation of the collapse.

Read sections 6.14.2 and 6.14.3 of the NIST report.

Why are you arguing about things NIST does not claim happened?


Arthur

http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...295&#entry63780
Coastal
QUOTE (newton+Feb 14 2006, 06:55 AM)

here's the mechanism.

they put a homing beacon on the floors that were struck by the planes. the remote control systems used on all three 'missile' planes were the same technology. this explains the pilots' 'skill'.
as the planes approached the tower, remote observers triggered the explosions in the basement, which removed most of the REDUNANCY from the support of the towers, but left them standing.
they waited an hour, and pressed the GO button which blew out more core columns, (which may have FAILED for some of the bombs planned at the beginning of the sequence, in the first collapse, which required shoulder fired missiles down the ONE freight elevator shaft, from the helicopter which hovered over it SECONDS before the collapse, exibiting NUMEROUS bright flashes, visible from hoboken on the 911eyewitness video).
for the second tower, they instead were able to just use the remote control, as planned. the recording goes BOOOM(tower still standing), and then some few seconds of silence, and then BOOOOOOOOOOOOM(tower collapsing very quickly).
these events(booms) registered similiar SOUND energy, in both spectrum and magnitude.


I'll be godammed!!

Somebody finally had the nerve to say it. I gotta give ya' that, newton. It takes balls to actually type that theory out.

Now read through it again tomorrow when you're straight (if you're ever straight), and you'll begin to see why this is so comical to the rest of us.

newton
QUOTE (Coastal+Feb 14 2006, 07:15 AM)
Now read through it again tomorrow when you're straight (if you're ever straight),

a brief period before the first cup of coffee.
cosmo
QUOTE (Coastal+Feb 14 2006, 07:15 AM)
QUOTE (newton+Feb 14 2006, 06:55 AM)

here's the mechanism.

they put a homing beacon on the floors that were struck by the planes.  the remote control systems used on all three 'missile' planes were the same technology.  this explains the pilots' 'skill'.
as the planes approached the tower, remote observers triggered the explosions in the basement, which removed most of the REDUNANCY from the support of the towers, but left them standing.
they waited an hour, and pressed the GO button which blew out more core columns, (which may have FAILED for some of the bombs planned at the beginning of the sequence, in the first collapse, which required shoulder fired missiles down the ONE freight elevator shaft, from the helicopter which hovered over it SECONDS before the collapse, exibiting NUMEROUS bright flashes, visible from hoboken on the 911eyewitness video).
for the second tower, they instead were able to just use the remote control, as planned.  the recording goes BOOOM(tower still standing), and then some few seconds of silence, and then BOOOOOOOOOOOOM(tower collapsing very quickly).
these events(booms) registered similiar SOUND energy, in both spectrum and magnitude.


I'll be godammed!!

Somebody finally had the nerve to say it. I gotta give ya' that, newton. It takes balls to actually type that theory out.

Now read through it again tomorrow when you're straight (if you're ever straight), and you'll begin to see why this is so comical to the rest of us.

Just because Newton believes this does not mean the rest of us subscribe to this ridiculous garbage.

Honestly, Newton, get a grip.
Foxx
QUOTE (Coastal+Feb 14 2006, 06:55 AM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 14 2006, 05:29 AM)
Re: The Urology website (which the Schneiby crew used to first promote the 'absolute proof' that the perimeter columns were 'pulled in')...

I checked the Internet Archives to see the 'history' of this 'site'.

the Internet Archives (or the Wayback Machine) --- ( http://www.archive.org/web/web.php ) is an internet caching service who claim...

QUOTE
About the Wayback Machine --- Browse through 55 billion web pages archived from 1996 to a few months ago. To start surfing the Wayback, type in the web address of a site or page where you would like to start, and press enter. Then select from the archived dates available. The resulting pages point to other archived pages at as close a date as possible.


Here is what came up...

http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/Urology_site.jpg

User posted image

As can be seen this 'Urology' site has only surfaced on the web since Apr 12, 2004.

It is quite plausible that these 'doctors' only got 'web-savvy' in 2004. Let's not hold that against them. biggrin.gif

The same page appears as the homepage of these 'Urology doctors' since that time...

http://65.217.248.202/

Feel free to call me a 'nut-case', but this is an odd 'address' for a 'homepage' for doctors seeking to publicize their 'services' on the internet.

It is obviously nothing more than an IP address... Hardly 'easy' to find for someone looking for 'urology' services.

If I was looking for 'urology' services I would tend to google-up 'Urology' as a first search.

Anyone legitimately looking for business will generally tie their profession somewhere in the search terms...

i.e.

- Urology.com

- Urology.org

- Urology-are-us.com

- etc, etc, etc.

Maybe these 'doctors of urology' are just 'idiots' ???...

or maybe something smells fishy in Denmark???

On the other hand, we would not expect 'doctors' to be highly proficient 'web-masters' (and as we would assume that money would NOT be an obstacle for them), we would presume IF they were looking to expand their business via the internet... they would have no problem hiring web-savvy people to 'get their message / services OUT... wouldn't YOU think ???... So that potential customers could EASILY FIND them on the web.

I am beginning to agree with the suspicions of gordon...

Have we uncovered a 'nest' ???


biggrin.gif

I don't expect everyone to understand what I am talking about here... but SOME WILL...

Schneiby promotes Urology site...
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...indpost&p=59331

Foxx Reply... ( Jan 30 2006, 03:18 AM / page - 290 )
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...indpost&p=59455

Gee... Ol' Schneiby seemed to fade out 'quietly' after that... (amidst death threaths and pending lawsuit threats... biggrin.gif)

Oh, I forgot about that... How's the lawsuit coming, Schneibster???


I Still have Not received anything from your 'lawyers' yet biggrin.gif

I expect to see your new puppet soon, though.

ARGHH!!

I'm dyin' here!!

tongue.gif

Foxx breaks up a nest of spooks with the Wayback Machine!!

Here....

http://www.dnsstuff.com/

Knock yourself out, Sherlock.

That ought to feed your paranoia to the point that you'll be institutionalized within the month.

Thanks 'Quack' (aka 'Coastal')... I'll be sure to check out that link...

-------------------

Interesting, Yid. Now we have 2 'home-pages'...

http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/Urology_site.jpg

User posted image

AND...

http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/Urology2.jpg

User posted image

registered on the web... (both having the same 'front' page).

Nevertheless, the 'link' Schneibster posted was from...


http://65.217.248.202/911columns.wmv

and does not seem related at ALL to

http://www.urologyspecialtycare.com/911columns.wmv

Please explain ?


Coastal
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 14 2006, 07:48 AM)


http://65.217.248.202/911columns.wmv

and does not seem related at ALL to

http://www.urologyspecialtycare.com/911columns.wmv

Please explain ?


Some detective you are!!

WaybackMachine. Phffft!

Call 'em up, Columbo.

Registrant:
Surgicare
15-01 Broadway
Fair Lawn, NJ 07410
US

Domain Name: UROLOGYSPECIALTYCARE.COM

Administrative Contact :
Surgicare
donrican@gmail.com
15-01 Broadway
Fair Lawn, NJ 07410
US
Phone: 201-791-4544
Fax: 123 123 1234

Technical Contact :
Network Solutions, LLC.
customerservice@networksolutions.com
13200 Woodland Park Drive
Herndon, VA 20171-3025
US
Phone: 1-888-642-9675
Fax: 571-434-4620

Record expires on 03-May-2012
Record created on 02-May-1997
Database last updated on 07-Jul-2004

Domain servers in listed order: Manage DNS

NS9.WORLDNIC.COM 216.168.228.7
NS10.WORLDNIC.COM 216.168.225.140

Show underlying registry data for this record



Current Registrar: NETWORK SOLUTIONS, LLC.
IP Address: 65.217.248.202 (ARIN & RIPE IP search)
IP Location: US(UNITED STATES)-NEW JERSEY-FAIR LAWN
Record Type: Domain Name
Server Type: IIS 5
Lock Status: REGISTRAR-LOCK
Web Site Status: Active
DMOZ no listings
Y! Directory: see listings
Secure: No
E-commerce: No
Traffic Ranking: Not available
Data as of: 14-Jun-2005

newton
QUOTE (cosmo+Feb 14 2006, 07:23 AM)
QUOTE (Coastal+Feb 14 2006, 07:15 AM)
QUOTE (newton+Feb 14 2006, 06:55 AM)

here's the mechanism.

they put a homing beacon on the floors that were struck by the planes.  the remote control systems used on all three 'missile' planes were the same technology.  this explains the pilots' 'skill'.
as the planes approached the tower, remote observers triggered the explosions in the basement, which removed most of the REDUNANCY from the support of the towers, but left them standing.
they waited an hour, and pressed the GO button which blew out more core columns, (which may have FAILED for some of the bombs planned at the beginning of the sequence, in the first collapse, which required shoulder fired missiles down the ONE freight elevator shaft, from the helicopter which hovered over it SECONDS before the collapse, exibiting NUMEROUS bright flashes, visible from hoboken on the 911eyewitness video).
for the second tower, they instead were able to just use the remote control, as planned.  the recording goes BOOOM(tower still standing), and then some few seconds of silence, and then BOOOOOOOOOOOOM(tower collapsing very quickly).
these events(booms) registered similiar SOUND energy, in both spectrum and magnitude.


I'll be godammed!!

Somebody finally had the nerve to say it. I gotta give ya' that, newton. It takes balls to actually type that theory out.

Now read through it again tomorrow when you're straight (if you're ever straight), and you'll begin to see why this is so comical to the rest of us.

Just because Newton believes this does not mean the rest of us subscribe to this ridiculous garbage.

Honestly, Newton, get a grip.

hey, cosmo.
i don't know whose 'side' you're on, but the scenario i listed has more merit than the NIST report.
did you see the 911eyewitness video?
you can download it for free over bittorrent, and maybe some other places. a lot of people are seeing it, now.
if you haven't seen the raw footage of the seven or eight black helicopters, some of which 'hide' in the smoke plumes on a blue sky day, then you SHOULD think it's BS.
i see the flashes coming from the helicopter hovering over the tower in the dense smoke, and i have to FORCE myself to come up with some OTHER explanation. there are flashes from the helicopter, and then the tower falls seconds later. it's on the video.
if i hadn't SEEN and HEARD the soundswaves(okay, the 'seen' part is a computer generated graph), then i would not KNOW that there was a massive energy spike BEFORE the second tower fell. and that soundwave is similiar to the sounds of the actual collapse.
do you have to 'subscribe to' garbage? can't you just throw it out?

if i'm right or wrong about 'conclusions', is irrelevent, i figger(and actually, that was just a possible scenario. i don't 'believe' it. it is POSSIBLE is all, and a better answer than NIST's/CNN's, according to the evidence I have seen). it didn't cost me four yrs. (times the population of the NIST team) and twenty million dollars to come up with it, and it does answer all the 'problems' with 'conspiracy demolition theory'.

as far as rigging the builings go, office towers are MOSTLY empty from about eleven o'clock until six.

i don't want to grow up, and i don't want to 'get a grip'. when you are holding onto something, you cannot 'catch' something else.

cosmo
QUOTE (Coastal+Feb 14 2006, 07:56 AM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 14 2006, 07:48 AM)


http://65.217.248.202/911columns.wmv

and does not seem related at ALL to

http://www.urologyspecialtycare.com/911columns.wmv

Please explain ?


Some detective you are!!

WaybackMachine. Phffft!

Call 'em up, Columbo.

Registrant:
Surgicare
15-01 Broadway
Fair Lawn, NJ 07410
US

Domain Name: UROLOGYSPECIALTYCARE.COM

Administrative Contact :
Surgicare
donrican@gmail.com
15-01 Broadway
Fair Lawn, NJ 07410
US
Phone: 201-791-4544
Fax: 123 123 1234

Technical Contact :
Network Solutions, LLC.
customerservice@networksolutions.com
13200 Woodland Park Drive
Herndon, VA 20171-3025
US
Phone: 1-888-642-9675
Fax: 571-434-4620

Record expires on 03-May-2012
Record created on 02-May-1997
Database last updated on 07-Jul-2004

Domain servers in listed order: Manage DNS

NS9.WORLDNIC.COM 216.168.228.7
NS10.WORLDNIC.COM 216.168.225.140

Show underlying registry data for this record



Current Registrar: NETWORK SOLUTIONS, LLC.
IP Address: 65.217.248.202 (ARIN & RIPE IP search)
IP Location: US(UNITED STATES)-NEW JERSEY-FAIR LAWN
Record Type: Domain Name
Server Type: IIS 5
Lock Status: REGISTRAR-LOCK
Web Site Status: Active
DMOZ no listings
Y! Directory: see listings
Secure: No
E-commerce: No
Traffic Ranking: Not available
Data as of: 14-Jun-2005

This is pointless information. All we really want to know is how Schneibster managed to "find" a 4-second video that was posted on an unrelated urology site. Why was this particular 4-second cut of video never seen before or since, and why was it mysteriously removed within half an hour of Schneibster being called on it?
Foxx
QUOTE (Coastal+Feb 14 2006, 07:56 AM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 14 2006, 07:48 AM)


http://65.217.248.202/911columns.wmv

and does not seem related at ALL to

http://www.urologyspecialtycare.com/911columns.wmv

Please explain ?


Some detective you are!!

WaybackMachine. Phffft!

Call 'em up, Columbo.

Registrant:
Surgicare
15-01 Broadway
Fair Lawn, NJ 07410
US

Domain Name: UROLOGYSPECIALTYCARE.COM

Administrative Contact :
Surgicare
donrican@gmail.com
15-01 Broadway
Fair Lawn, NJ 07410
US
Phone: 201-791-4544
Fax: 123 123 1234

Technical Contact :
Network Solutions, LLC.
customerservice@networksolutions.com
13200 Woodland Park Drive
Herndon, VA 20171-3025
US
Phone: 1-888-642-9675
Fax: 571-434-4620

Record expires on 03-May-2012
Record created on 02-May-1997
Database last updated on 07-Jul-2004

Domain servers in listed order: Manage DNS

NS9.WORLDNIC.COM 216.168.228.7
NS10.WORLDNIC.COM 216.168.225.140

Show underlying registry data for this record



Current Registrar: NETWORK SOLUTIONS, LLC.
IP Address: 65.217.248.202 (ARIN & RIPE IP search)
IP Location: US(UNITED STATES)-NEW JERSEY-FAIR LAWN
Record Type: Domain Name
Server Type: IIS 5
Lock Status: REGISTRAR-LOCK
Web Site Status: Active
DMOZ no listings
Y! Directory: see listings
Secure: No
E-commerce: No
Traffic Ranking: Not available
Data as of: 14-Jun-2005

Oh great... The Pink Panther lives after all.

Now why don't you tell us how Schniebster attached the video clip to a 'respectable' urology site there... Holmes?

cosmo
QUOTE (newton+Feb 14 2006, 08:15 AM)
QUOTE (cosmo+Feb 14 2006, 07:23 AM)
QUOTE (Coastal+Feb 14 2006, 07:15 AM)
QUOTE (newton+Feb 14 2006, 06:55 AM)

here's the mechanism.

they put a homing beacon on the floors that were struck by the planes.  the remote control systems used on all three 'missile' planes were the same technology.  this explains the pilots' 'skill'.
as the planes approached the tower, remote observers triggered the explosions in the basement, which removed most of the REDUNANCY from the support of the towers, but left them standing.
they waited an hour, and pressed the GO button which blew out more core columns, (which may have FAILED for some of the bombs planned at the beginning of the sequence, in the first collapse, which required shoulder fired missiles down the ONE freight elevator shaft, from the helicopter which hovered over it SECONDS before the collapse, exibiting NUMEROUS bright flashes, visible from hoboken on the 911eyewitness video).
for the second tower, they instead were able to just use the remote control, as planned.  the recording goes BOOOM(tower still standing), and then some few seconds of silence, and then BOOOOOOOOOOOOM(tower collapsing very quickly).
these events(booms) registered similiar SOUND energy, in both spectrum and magnitude.


I'll be godammed!!

Somebody finally had the nerve to say it. I gotta give ya' that, newton. It takes balls to actually type that theory out.

Now read through it again tomorrow when you're straight (if you're ever straight), and you'll begin to see why this is so comical to the rest of us.

Just because Newton believes this does not mean the rest of us subscribe to this ridiculous garbage.

Honestly, Newton, get a grip.

hey, cosmo.
i don't know whose 'side' you're on, but the scenario i listed has more merit than the NIST report.
did you see the 911eyewitness video?
you can download it for free over bittorrent, and maybe some other places. a lot of people are seeing it, now.
if you haven't seen the raw footage of the seven or eight black helicopters, some of which 'hide' in the smoke plumes on a blue sky day, then you SHOULD think it's BS.
i see the flashes coming from the helicopter hovering over the tower in the dense smoke, and i have to FORCE myself to come up with some OTHER explanation. there are flashes from the helicopter, and then the tower falls seconds later. it's on the video.
if i hadn't SEEN and HEARD the soundswaves(okay, the 'seen' part is a computer generated graph), then i would not KNOW that there was a massive energy spike BEFORE the second tower fell. and that soundwave is similiar to the sounds of the actual collapse.
do you have to 'subscribe to' garbage? can't you just throw it out?

if i'm right or wrong about 'conclusions', is irrelevent, i figger(and actually, that was just a possible scenario. i don't 'believe' it. it is POSSIBLE is all, and a better answer than NIST's/CNN's, according to the evidence I have seen). it didn't cost me four yrs. (times the population of the NIST team) and twenty million dollars to come up with it, and it does answer all the 'problems' with 'conspiracy demolition theory'.

as far as rigging the builings go, office towers are MOSTLY empty from about eleven o'clock until six.

i don't want to grow up, and i don't want to 'get a grip'. when you are holding onto something, you cannot 'catch' something else.

No, I have not seen the 911eyewitness video. I will watch it and if I see any evidence of "shoulder fired missiles down the ONE freight elevator shaft, from the helicopter which hovered over it SECONDS before the collapse" I will retract my statement and apologize. This just seems way too over the top for me at this point.

As far as "sides", I try not to take sides. There is so much disinformation and poisoning of the well taking place with regards to this issue, that I get easily irritated when I see people putting forth over-the-top and unsubstantiated nonsense. Alex Jones is someone that immediatley comes to mind. Anyone who wishes to be taken seriously needs to distance themselves from people who push paranoid speculation as fact.
Coastal
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 14 2006, 08:18 AM)


Now why don't you tell us how Schniebster attached the video clip to a 'respectable' urology site there... Holmes?


Are you really that dense?

Whoever used that domain to host the file did it the same way you host your blatherings on Homestead.

Why did they post it here under the IP instead of the domain name??

Elementary, my dear Watson......

Somebody was borrowing themselves a little bandwidth.

I know that you'd much rather it be a nest of urological spooks but I'm afraid it's just a little mundane bandwidth theft.

Kind of puts me in mind of your famous spooks behind the cameras debacle.

tongue.gif

Coastal
QUOTE (cosmo+Feb 14 2006, 08:17 AM)

This is pointless information.  All we really want to know is how Schneibster managed to "find" a 4-second video that was posted on an unrelated urology site.  Why was this particular 4-second cut of video never seen before or since, and why was it mysteriously removed within half an hour of Schneibster being called on it?


You're not paying attention.

It was taken from one of the kook sites.

http://novakeo.com/?p=337

30 minutes into Part 1.

I'm fairly damned certain that the reason the link was removed was because Foxx truncated the URL and posted the domain name that the bandwidth was being "borrowed" from.....

.....either that or the CIA has taken up residence in a New Jersey urology clinic.

tongue.gif

You decide.

lenbrazil
QUOTE (cosmo+Feb 14 2006, 07:23 AM)
QUOTE (Coastal+Feb 14 2006, 07:15 AM)
QUOTE (newton+Feb 14 2006, 06:55 AM)

here's the mechanism.

they put a homing beacon on the floors that were struck by the planes.  the remote control systems used on all three 'missile' planes were the same technology.  this explains the pilots' 'skill'.
as the planes approached the tower, remote observers triggered the explosions in the basement, which removed most of the REDUNANCY from the support of the towers, but left them standing.
they waited an hour, and pressed the GO button which blew out more core columns, (which may have FAILED for some of the bombs planned at the beginning of the sequence, in the first collapse, which required shoulder fired missiles down the ONE freight elevator shaft, from the helicopter which hovered over it SECONDS before the collapse, exibiting NUMEROUS bright flashes, visible from hoboken on the 911eyewitness video).
for the second tower, they instead were able to just use the remote control, as planned.  the recording goes BOOOM(tower still standing), and then some few seconds of silence, and then BOOOOOOOOOOOOM(tower collapsing very quickly).
these events(booms) registered similiar SOUND energy, in both spectrum and magnitude.


I'll be godammed!!

Somebody finally had the nerve to say it. I gotta give ya' that, newton. It takes balls to actually type that theory out.

Now read through it again tomorrow when you're straight (if you're ever straight), and you'll begin to see why this is so comical to the rest of us.

Just because Newton believes this does not mean the rest of us subscribe to this ridiculous garbage.

Honestly, Newton, get a grip.

Well I'm glad not all the CT's are TOTALLY of their rockers, but then how do you explain the collapse?

Particularly how did the planes end up colliding with the Towers?

Were they:

a) remotely controlled?

or

cool.gif flown by Israeli kamikazes?
frater plecticus
Why israeli kamikazees ?
lenbrazil
QUOTE (newton+Feb 14 2006, 08:15 AM)
QUOTE (cosmo+Feb 14 2006, 07:23 AM)
QUOTE (Coastal+Feb 14 2006, 07:15 AM)
QUOTE (newton+Feb 14 2006, 06:55 AM)

here's the mechanism.

they put a homing beacon on the floors that were struck by the planes.  the remote control systems used on all three 'missile' planes were the same technology.  this explains the pilots' 'skill'.
as the planes approached the tower, remote observers triggered the explosions in the basement, which removed most of the REDUNANCY from the support of the towers, but left them standing.
they waited an hour, and pressed the GO button which blew out more core columns, (which may have FAILED for some of the bombs planned at the beginning of the sequence, in the first collapse, which required shoulder fired missiles down the ONE freight elevator shaft, from the helicopter which hovered over it SECONDS before the collapse, exibiting NUMEROUS bright flashes, visible from hoboken on the 911eyewitness video).
for the second tower, they instead were able to just use the remote control, as planned.  the recording goes BOOOM(tower still standing), and then some few seconds of silence, and then BOOOOOOOOOOOOM(tower collapsing very quickly).
these events(booms) registered similiar SOUND energy, in both spectrum and magnitude.


I'll be godammed!!

Somebody finally had the nerve to say it. I gotta give ya' that, newton. It takes balls to actually type that theory out.

Now read through it again tomorrow when you're straight (if you're ever straight), and you'll begin to see why this is so comical to the rest of us.

Just because Newton believes this does not mean the rest of us subscribe to this ridiculous garbage.

Honestly, Newton, get a grip.

hey, cosmo.
i don't know whose 'side' you're on, but the scenario i listed has more merit than the NIST report.
did you see the 911eyewitness video?
you can download it for free over bittorrent, and maybe some other places. a lot of people are seeing it, now.
if you haven't seen the raw footage of the seven or eight black helicopters, some of which 'hide' in the smoke plumes on a blue sky day, then you SHOULD think it's BS.
i see the flashes coming from the helicopter hovering over the tower in the dense smoke, and i have to FORCE myself to come up with some OTHER explanation. there are flashes from the helicopter, and then the tower falls seconds later. it's on the video.
if i hadn't SEEN and HEARD the soundswaves(okay, the 'seen' part is a computer generated graph), then i would not KNOW that there was a massive energy spike BEFORE the second tower fell. and that soundwave is similiar to the sounds of the actual collapse.
do you have to 'subscribe to' garbage? can't you just throw it out?

if i'm right or wrong about 'conclusions', is irrelevent, i figger(and actually, that was just a possible scenario. i don't 'believe' it. it is POSSIBLE is all, and a better answer than NIST's/CNN's, according to the evidence I have seen). it didn't cost me four yrs. (times the population of the NIST team) and twenty million dollars to come up with it, and it does answer all the 'problems' with 'conspiracy demolition theory'.

as far as rigging the builings go, office towers are MOSTLY empty from about eleven o'clock until six.

i don't want to grow up, and i don't want to 'get a grip'. when you are holding onto something, you cannot 'catch' something else.

Huummmm - black helicopters fireing missiles at the Towers that's a novel new theory. What was that link again?

Funny after 4 1/2 years of hundereds if not thousands of people scrutinizing every photo and video clip of the Towers that morning and no one spotted this before? A bit odd don't you think?

Those "flashes" were probably those blinking lights that most (all?) aircraft have. Since the were in the smoke as you say they would want to be as visible as possible.

I bet those helicopters were responsible for shooting down those planes over Jearsy that the EMT swore she saw.

Cosmo is right the more you and others post woo-woo tinfoil hat nonsense like that the less people will take you seriously. But then again go ahead feel free.
lenbrazil
QUOTE (frater plecticus+Feb 14 2006, 02:08 PM)
Why israeli Kamikazes ?

]Because those are the 2 explanations I've seen 1) remote controlled planes OR 2) Israeli Kamikazes disguised as Arabs, oh and I just remembered 3) Arab dupes sent by a) bin-Laden cuz he was W's and HW's buddy or cool.gif some rouge "terrorist" leader controlled by the Illuminati/NWO/CIA/MIC/PNAC/Elders of Zion/shape-shifters
adoucette
QUOTE (yesitdid+Feb 14 2006, 02:24 AM)
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Feb 14 2006, 06:13 AM)
I thought you said you read the report:

"The investigation team then defined three cases for each building by combining the middle, less severs and more sever values of the influential variables."


Chapter 6, paragragh 2 page 144 .  
6.14.1

Considering you consistently misspell the word 'severe' I have trouble believing that yours is a direct quote.
Chapter 6, paragraph 2 page 144 .
6.14.1 ,,, of what document, what is the http address please?

YesItDid,

You seem to be the only one who can cut/paste from the NIST report.

Don't use spelling mistakes to discount what he posted.

He is correct in this quote, even if he didn't spell severe correctly.

He is referring to the Final Report. Which though I have read (several times in fact) I have not memorized.

As it turns out, the two cases that I referenced, A & B for WTC 1 and C & D for WTC 2, were derived from these 3 original range of values. Their discussion of how A&B, and C&D cases were derived is well after their presentation of the cases, and thus I missed it in my recent research on a different question.

However I don't agree with his conclusion, nor with his point that they always used the most severe .

What they say is that: To the extent that the simulations deviated from photographic evidence or eyewitness reports, the investigators adjusted the input, but only within the range of physical reality.

They do not, as ReasonWhy implies always adjust to the more severe values, but even if they did, as this sentence states, they adjusted the input to MATCH what was KNOWN. Thus they WERE NOT COOKING THE BOOKS, which is how I read ReasonWhy's original assertion.

If ReasonWhy believes they were, then it is up to him to offer proof.

Arthur

lenbrazil
QUOTE (Coastal+Feb 14 2006, 09:21 AM)
QUOTE (cosmo+Feb 14 2006, 08:17 AM)

This is pointless information.  All we really want to know is how Schneibster managed to "find" a 4-second video that was posted on an unrelated urology site.  Why was this particular 4-second cut of video never seen before or since, and why was it mysteriously removed within half an hour of Schneibster being called on it?


You're not paying attention.

It was taken from one of the kook sites.

http://novakeo.com/?p=337

30 minutes into Part 1.

I'm fairly damned certain that the reason the link was removed was because Foxx truncated the URL and posted the domain name that the bandwidth was being "borrowed" from.....

.....either that or the CIA has taken up residence in a New Jersey urology clinic.

tongue.gif

You decide.

Foxx's obsession with the Urology clinic is interesting if you think about it from a Freudian perspective.
adoucette
QUOTE (newton+Feb 14 2006, 04:15 AM)
it didn't cost me four yrs. (times the population of the NIST team) and twenty million dollars to come up with it, and it does answer all the 'problems' with 'conspiracy demolition theory'.

i don't want to grow up

Really newton,

You thought of that ALL by yourself?????

Friggin amazing.

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Arthur

Temp
In my 911 world the TV footage was faked. There were no planes, no hijackers, no stand down orders, no phone calls. It becomes so simple. The building scars were caused by bombs, if they were real and not done by live editing.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1535000/vide...rstcrash_vi.ram

http://www.positiontoknow.com/S-11/vid/wtc2-p.mpeg

Nothing hit the Pentagon, and nothing crashed in Shanksville.

A perfect demolition.

Just a simple question for the Physics heads here.

If (and I mean IF) the jet fuel ran down the lift shafts and the "hollow core" - why did the building start collapsing [exploding] from the top? Why didnt the jet fuel cause the steel at the base of the building to soften and buckle causing it to become unstable and topple over? Why the "top down" collapse?

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