QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 6 2006, 06:25 AM)
Common Sense,
You may have to post this another dozen or so times, these CT'ers reading comprehension is VERY low and they have VERY selective retention.
Then there are those extreme cases like Foxx who will not only MISREAD these quotes but also manage to stick BRISANT in front of "Flash".
I believe its a symtom of a previously unknown illness, Conspiracy Related Attention Paralysis or CRAP for short.
Arthur
So that is what you are left with, spamming the forum. He has posted the CRAP more times then that.
You may have to post this another dozen or so times, these CT'ers reading comprehension is VERY low and they have VERY selective retention.
Then there are those extreme cases like Foxx who will not only MISREAD these quotes but also manage to stick BRISANT in front of "Flash".
I believe its a symtom of a previously unknown illness, Conspiracy Related Attention Paralysis or CRAP for short.
Arthur
So that is what you are left with, spamming the forum. He has posted the CRAP more times then that.
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Feb 6 2006, 02:54 PM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 6 2006, 06:25 AM)
Common Sense,
You may have to post this another dozen or so times, these CT'ers reading comprehension is VERY low and they have VERY selective retention.
Then there are those extreme cases like Foxx who will not only MISREAD these quotes but also manage to stick BRISANT in front of "Flash".
I believe its a symtom of a previously unknown illness, Conspiracy Related Attention Paralysis or CRAP for short.
Arthur
So that is what you are left with, spamming the forum. He has posted the CRAP more times then that.
Reasonwhy is a member of CLOWN. (Clueless Losers Obsessed With Nonsense)
But I guess repeating the same answer to the same questions posed by CLOWN's could be concidered spamming.
Where were those located? In the basement, perhaps (where the power for the towers was introduced) ?
I don't recall any pictures of incoming power lines attached to the sides of the building?
Links... references (specific to the WTC) would be appreciated... anyone???
Let's see if there is ANY evidence that 'electrical transformers' were positioned in the towers where the fire-fighters reported brisant flashes.
IF there is NO evidence to support the claim that 'electrical transformers' were housed in the areas where fire-fighters reported brisant flashes, then that claim must be abandoned as any form of 'proof' or 'evidence'...
(Much like the Amazing Super-sonic jet-fuel theory is scientific nonsense)
Well... as 'they' are doing all they can to ignore, ob-fu-sk8te, and change the topic... I have to post this again in an attempt to bring the topic back to an objective scientific discussion.
The Gov't CTers proposed that the brisant flashes were caused by electrical transformer explosions.
I believe that I have asked the believers in this fairy tale to support such statements scientifically or with REAL FACTS.
Is my above scientific, logical and reasonable query out of order?
Can anyone provide evidence to show where the transformers were located in the WTC towers OR wtc 7 ???
Brisant flashes were testified to by objective fire-fighters. I accept their testimony as evidence of nothing more than brisant flashes.
The question is HOW could these brisant flashes be explained by anything other than detonations of pre-positioned explosives?
The proposition has been put forward by the gravity-driven collapse supporters that these 'may' have been caused by 'transformer explosions'.
The only thing we have to do NOW... is to show that there WERE transformers at the locations which the fire-fighters referred to... and THEN we will be able to support this postulation.
Apart from 'evidence' that there WERE transformers capable of exploding at those locations...
...This theory has no more relevance (even less), than the explosives theory.
PS - I still want to know how that 4 sec. clip was attached to the Urology website.
You posted it Schnei... errr I mean 'Common Sense'....
Please explain?
How's the lawsuit coming?
Once again Schneiby, you bring up the transformers explosions as an explaination for the flashes, yet offer no confirming evidence whatsoever that there were transformers in those areas. Did you take the time (only takes mini-seconds) to view the flashes at Implosion world... Or are you purposely avoiding both of the above because it does not fit your fairy tale?
You may have to post this another dozen or so times, these CT'ers reading comprehension is VERY low and they have VERY selective retention.
Then there are those extreme cases like Foxx who will not only MISREAD these quotes but also manage to stick BRISANT in front of "Flash".
I believe its a symtom of a previously unknown illness, Conspiracy Related Attention Paralysis or CRAP for short.
Arthur
So that is what you are left with, spamming the forum. He has posted the CRAP more times then that.
Reasonwhy is a member of CLOWN. (Clueless Losers Obsessed With Nonsense)
But I guess repeating the same answer to the same questions posed by CLOWN's could be concidered spamming.
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 6 2006, 04:30 AM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 5 2006, 08:03 AM)
QUOTE
Originally posted by the Schneib
All these buildings had transformers and transformer vaults.
All these buildings had transformers and transformer vaults.
Where were those located? In the basement, perhaps (where the power for the towers was introduced) ?
I don't recall any pictures of incoming power lines attached to the sides of the building?
Links... references (specific to the WTC) would be appreciated... anyone???
Let's see if there is ANY evidence that 'electrical transformers' were positioned in the towers where the fire-fighters reported brisant flashes.
IF there is NO evidence to support the claim that 'electrical transformers' were housed in the areas where fire-fighters reported brisant flashes, then that claim must be abandoned as any form of 'proof' or 'evidence'...
(Much like the Amazing Super-sonic jet-fuel theory is scientific nonsense)
Well... as 'they' are doing all they can to ignore, ob-fu-sk8te, and change the topic... I have to post this again in an attempt to bring the topic back to an objective scientific discussion.
The Gov't CTers proposed that the brisant flashes were caused by electrical transformer explosions.
I believe that I have asked the believers in this fairy tale to support such statements scientifically or with REAL FACTS.
Is my above scientific, logical and reasonable query out of order?
Can anyone provide evidence to show where the transformers were located in the WTC towers OR wtc 7 ???
Brisant flashes were testified to by objective fire-fighters. I accept their testimony as evidence of nothing more than brisant flashes.
The question is HOW could these brisant flashes be explained by anything other than detonations of pre-positioned explosives?
The proposition has been put forward by the gravity-driven collapse supporters that these 'may' have been caused by 'transformer explosions'.
The only thing we have to do NOW... is to show that there WERE transformers at the locations which the fire-fighters referred to... and THEN we will be able to support this postulation.
Apart from 'evidence' that there WERE transformers capable of exploding at those locations...
...This theory has no more relevance (even less), than the explosives theory.
PS - I still want to know how that 4 sec. clip was attached to the Urology website.
You posted it Schnei... errr I mean 'Common Sense'....
Please explain?
How's the lawsuit coming?
Once again Schneiby, you bring up the transformers explosions as an explaination for the flashes, yet offer no confirming evidence whatsoever that there were transformers in those areas. Did you take the time (only takes mini-seconds) to view the flashes at Implosion world... Or are you purposely avoiding both of the above because it does not fit your fairy tale?
QUOTE (Common Sense+Feb 6 2006, 11:00 AM)
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Feb 6 2006, 02:54 PM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 6 2006, 06:25 AM)
Common Sense,
You may have to post this another dozen or so times, these CT'ers reading comprehension is VERY low and they have VERY selective retention.
Then there are those extreme cases like Foxx who will not only MISREAD these quotes but also manage to stick BRISANT in front of "Flash".
I believe its a symtom of a previously unknown illness, Conspiracy Related Attention Paralysis or CRAP for short.
Arthur
So that is what you are left with, spamming the forum. He has posted the CRAP more times then that.
Reasonwhy is a member of CLOWN. (Clueless Losers Obsessed With Nonsense)
But I guess repeating the same answer to the same questions posed by CLOWN's could be concidered spamming.
This is what we have seen OVER and OVER.
What the CTer's post is usually reasonably accurate, just OUT OF CONTEXT or INCOMPLETE.
Thus while you have posted the FULL statements a number of times, it is just a matter of days before a new CLOWN suffering from CRAP posts the same truncated quotes to make the same already discredited point.
Arthur
Brisant flashes were testified to by objective fire-fighters. I accept their testimony as evidence of nothing more than brisant flashes.
The question is HOW could these brisant flashes be explained by anything other than detonations of pre-positioned explosives?
Once again you repeat the lie that anyone claimed they saw BRISANT Flashes.
They say they saw FLASHES.
Quit embellishing.
Arthur
Brisant flashes were testified to by objective fire-fighters. I accept their testimony as evidence of nothing more than brisant flashes.
The question is HOW could these brisant flashes be explained by anything other than detonations of pre-positioned explosives?
Once again you repeat the lie that anyone claimed they saw BRISANT Flashes.
They say they saw FLASHES.
Quit embellishing.
Arthur
Ok Arthur, What is your theory for the flashes?
Brisant flashes were testified to by objective fire-fighters. I accept their testimony as evidence of nothing more than brisant flashes.
The question is HOW could these brisant flashes be explained by anything other than detonations of pre-positioned explosives?
Once again you repeat the lie that anyone claimed they saw BRISANT Flashes.
They say they saw FLASHES.
Quit embellishing.
Arthur
Ok Arthur, What is your theory for the flashes?
I have to go with the Assist Fire Commissioner, Stephen Gregory.
So Gregory clearly states that he is NOT AT ALL SURPRISED that the building coming down WOULD cause flashes. I don't expect him to list ALL the things that could cause a flash, but seeing as he is the Asst Fire Commissioner I suspect he has had a few years of experience to base this upon.
The word AFC Gregory DOES NOT use is BRISANT.
In fact the descriptive term "Low Level" is associated with "Flash" quite often by the firefighters on the scene, which unfortunately they do not make it clear if the flashes are at a low FLOOR level in the building or the flashes themselves are of low intensity (level).
Arthur
Brisant flashes were testified to by objective fire-fighters. I accept their testimony as evidence of nothing more than brisant flashes.
The question is HOW could these brisant flashes be explained by anything other than detonations of pre-positioned explosives?
Once again you repeat the lie that anyone claimed they saw BRISANT Flashes.
They say they saw FLASHES.
Quit embellishing.
Arthur
Ok Arthur, What is your theory for the flashes?
I have to go with the Assist Fire Commissioner, Stephen Gregory.
So Gregory clearly states that he is NOT AT ALL SURPRISED that the building coming down WOULD cause flashes. I don't expect him to list ALL the things that could cause a flash, but seeing as he is the Asst Fire Commissioner I suspect he has had a few years of experience to base this upon.
The word AFC Gregory DOES NOT use is BRISANT.
In fact the descriptive term "Low Level" is associated with "Flash" quite often by the firefighters on the scene, which unfortunately they do not make it clear if the flashes are at a low FLOOR level in the building or the flashes themselves are of low intensity (level).
Arthur
Does his experience come from watching other skyscrapers totally collapse from fire? In other words you have no idea.
You may have to post this another dozen or so times, these CT'ers reading comprehension is VERY low and they have VERY selective retention.
Then there are those extreme cases like Foxx who will not only MISREAD these quotes but also manage to stick BRISANT in front of "Flash".
I believe its a symtom of a previously unknown illness, Conspiracy Related Attention Paralysis or CRAP for short.
Arthur
So that is what you are left with, spamming the forum. He has posted the CRAP more times then that.
Reasonwhy is a member of CLOWN. (Clueless Losers Obsessed With Nonsense)
But I guess repeating the same answer to the same questions posed by CLOWN's could be concidered spamming.
This is what we have seen OVER and OVER.
What the CTer's post is usually reasonably accurate, just OUT OF CONTEXT or INCOMPLETE.
Thus while you have posted the FULL statements a number of times, it is just a matter of days before a new CLOWN suffering from CRAP posts the same truncated quotes to make the same already discredited point.
Arthur
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 6 2006, 11:09 AM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 6 2006, 04:30 AM)
Brisant flashes were testified to by objective fire-fighters. I accept their testimony as evidence of nothing more than brisant flashes.
The question is HOW could these brisant flashes be explained by anything other than detonations of pre-positioned explosives?
Once again you repeat the lie that anyone claimed they saw BRISANT Flashes.
They say they saw FLASHES.
Quit embellishing.
Arthur
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 6 2006, 07:20 AM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 6 2006, 11:09 AM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 6 2006, 04:30 AM)
Brisant flashes were testified to by objective fire-fighters. I accept their testimony as evidence of nothing more than brisant flashes.
The question is HOW could these brisant flashes be explained by anything other than detonations of pre-positioned explosives?
Once again you repeat the lie that anyone claimed they saw BRISANT Flashes.
They say they saw FLASHES.
Quit embellishing.
Arthur
Ok Arthur, What is your theory for the flashes?
WTC "Fireworks" clearly seen going upwards
Fireworks: at about 13 seconds into
http://thewebfairy.com/911/binaries/n_towe...apse1_close.wmv
focus your eyes on the base of the "spire". You will see a WTC "fireworks" shoot basically upwards.
This is what happens when you hire CD people and don't pay them enough - they do an unprofessional job.
Fireworks: at about 13 seconds into
http://thewebfairy.com/911/binaries/n_towe...apse1_close.wmv
focus your eyes on the base of the "spire". You will see a WTC "fireworks" shoot basically upwards.
This is what happens when you hire CD people and don't pay them enough - they do an unprofessional job.
So is it accepted wisdom now?
Gravity can project materials including massive steel beams upwards and horizontally.
Gravity can pulverise concrete and building contents to fine dust IN MID AIR.
Do we go back to the drawing board or perhaps cave wallpainting?
Gravity can project materials including massive steel beams upwards and horizontally.
Gravity can pulverise concrete and building contents to fine dust IN MID AIR.
Do we go back to the drawing board or perhaps cave wallpainting?
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Feb 6 2006, 11:35 AM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 6 2006, 07:20 AM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 6 2006, 11:09 AM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 6 2006, 04:30 AM)
Brisant flashes were testified to by objective fire-fighters. I accept their testimony as evidence of nothing more than brisant flashes.
The question is HOW could these brisant flashes be explained by anything other than detonations of pre-positioned explosives?
Once again you repeat the lie that anyone claimed they saw BRISANT Flashes.
They say they saw FLASHES.
Quit embellishing.
Arthur
Ok Arthur, What is your theory for the flashes?
I have to go with the Assist Fire Commissioner, Stephen Gregory.
QUOTE
I equate it to the building coming down and pushing things down, it could have been electrical explosions, it could have been whatever.
So Gregory clearly states that he is NOT AT ALL SURPRISED that the building coming down WOULD cause flashes. I don't expect him to list ALL the things that could cause a flash, but seeing as he is the Asst Fire Commissioner I suspect he has had a few years of experience to base this upon.
The word AFC Gregory DOES NOT use is BRISANT.
In fact the descriptive term "Low Level" is associated with "Flash" quite often by the firefighters on the scene, which unfortunately they do not make it clear if the flashes are at a low FLOOR level in the building or the flashes themselves are of low intensity (level).
Arthur
adoucette Feb 6 2006, 03:59 PM
I think that just about sums it up then, it could have been...whatever*....
*except something that doesn't fit in to the "official conspiracy theory narrative", which includes virtually all the official information released since that fateful day in September...
QUOTE
it could have been whatever.
I think that just about sums it up then, it could have been...whatever*....
*except something that doesn't fit in to the "official conspiracy theory narrative", which includes virtually all the official information released since that fateful day in September...
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 6 2006, 07:59 AM)
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Feb 6 2006, 11:35 AM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 6 2006, 07:20 AM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 6 2006, 11:09 AM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 6 2006, 04:30 AM)
Brisant flashes were testified to by objective fire-fighters. I accept their testimony as evidence of nothing more than brisant flashes.
The question is HOW could these brisant flashes be explained by anything other than detonations of pre-positioned explosives?
Once again you repeat the lie that anyone claimed they saw BRISANT Flashes.
They say they saw FLASHES.
Quit embellishing.
Arthur
Ok Arthur, What is your theory for the flashes?
I have to go with the Assist Fire Commissioner, Stephen Gregory.
QUOTE
I equate it to the building coming down and pushing things down, it could have been electrical explosions, it could have been whatever.
So Gregory clearly states that he is NOT AT ALL SURPRISED that the building coming down WOULD cause flashes. I don't expect him to list ALL the things that could cause a flash, but seeing as he is the Asst Fire Commissioner I suspect he has had a few years of experience to base this upon.
The word AFC Gregory DOES NOT use is BRISANT.
In fact the descriptive term "Low Level" is associated with "Flash" quite often by the firefighters on the scene, which unfortunately they do not make it clear if the flashes are at a low FLOOR level in the building or the flashes themselves are of low intensity (level).
Arthur
Does his experience come from watching other skyscrapers totally collapse from fire? In other words you have no idea.
Well you could write and ask him, but my guess is he has seen other building collapses of much less magnitude and seen flashes when they do.
But I'm just guessing.
Of course so are you, Foxx, Frater et al when you ATTRIBUTE a CAUSE to the "low level" flashes. The difference is you attribute them to a CAUSE for which YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE OF.
At least Gregory and I are honest and essentially say "we don't know exactly what caused the flashes".
Arthur
But I'm just guessing.
Of course so are you, Foxx, Frater et al when you ATTRIBUTE a CAUSE to the "low level" flashes. The difference is you attribute them to a CAUSE for which YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE OF.
At least Gregory and I are honest and essentially say "we don't know exactly what caused the flashes".
Arthur
QUOTE (frater plecticus+Feb 6 2006, 12:03 PM)
adoucette Feb 6 2006, 03:59 PM
I think that just about sums it up then, it could have been...whatever*....
*except something that doesn't fit in to the "official conspiracy theory narrative", which includes virtually all the official information released since that fateful day in September...
I don't require the asterisk.
Whatever COULD have been CD explosives.
And if any ACTUAL EVIDENCE for CD explosives ever shows up, let us know.
Until then, they remain in the "whatever" catagory, meaning they are not PROOF of anything.
Arthur
QUOTE
it could have been whatever.
I think that just about sums it up then, it could have been...whatever*....
*except something that doesn't fit in to the "official conspiracy theory narrative", which includes virtually all the official information released since that fateful day in September...
I don't require the asterisk.
Whatever COULD have been CD explosives.
And if any ACTUAL EVIDENCE for CD explosives ever shows up, let us know.
Until then, they remain in the "whatever" catagory, meaning they are not PROOF of anything.
Arthur
adoucette Feb 6 2006, 04:25 PM
Would you be as honest to admit that "we don't know who was responsible for 9-11?
QUOTE
At least Gregory and I are honest and essentially say "we don't know exactly what caused the flashes".
Would you be as honest to admit that "we don't know who was responsible for 9-11?
QUOTE (metamars+Feb 6 2006, 11:37 AM)
WTC "Fireworks" clearly seen going upwards
Fireworks: at about 13 seconds into
http://thewebfairy.com/911/binaries/n_towe...apse1_close.wmv
focus your eyes on the base of the "spire". You will see a WTC "fireworks" shoot basically upwards.
This is what happens when you hire CD people and don't pay them enough - they do an unprofessional job.
Metamars,
Have your eyes checked or clean your monitor.
Having watched it several times now, no such "Fireworks" are visible.
All I see is a dust cloud moving left to right on a downward trajectory across the "spire".
Arthur
Fireworks: at about 13 seconds into
http://thewebfairy.com/911/binaries/n_towe...apse1_close.wmv
focus your eyes on the base of the "spire". You will see a WTC "fireworks" shoot basically upwards.
This is what happens when you hire CD people and don't pay them enough - they do an unprofessional job.
Metamars,
Have your eyes checked or clean your monitor.
Having watched it several times now, no such "Fireworks" are visible.
All I see is a dust cloud moving left to right on a downward trajectory across the "spire".
Arthur
QUOTE (frater plecticus+Feb 6 2006, 12:27 PM)
adoucette Feb 6 2006, 04:25 PM
Would you be as honest to admit that "we don't know who was responsible for 9-11?
That admission doesn't require honesty, only stupidity. The perpetrators have ADMITTED it. Even Atta's dad has admitted it.
Arthur
QUOTE
At least Gregory and I are honest and essentially say "we don't know exactly what caused the flashes".
Would you be as honest to admit that "we don't know who was responsible for 9-11?
That admission doesn't require honesty, only stupidity. The perpetrators have ADMITTED it. Even Atta's dad has admitted it.
Arthur
QUOTE (brian+Feb 6 2006, 11:39 AM)
So is it accepted wisdom now?
Gravity can project materials including massive steel beams upwards and horizontally.
Gravity can pulverise concrete and building contents to fine dust IN MID AIR.
Do we go back to the drawing board or perhaps cave wallpainting?
No, Gravity is what is responsible for the POTENTIAL ENERGY stored in the towers during their construction.
Twas the Potential Energy that was released as Kinetic Energy during the collapse that caused the forces that projected materials against the force of gravity and pulverized concrete, though much of it apparently not to fine dust, as evidenced from the pictures taken at Ground Zero.
Arthur
Gravity can project materials including massive steel beams upwards and horizontally.
Gravity can pulverise concrete and building contents to fine dust IN MID AIR.
Do we go back to the drawing board or perhaps cave wallpainting?
No, Gravity is what is responsible for the POTENTIAL ENERGY stored in the towers during their construction.
Twas the Potential Energy that was released as Kinetic Energy during the collapse that caused the forces that projected materials against the force of gravity and pulverized concrete, though much of it apparently not to fine dust, as evidenced from the pictures taken at Ground Zero.
Arthur
adoucette Feb 6 2006, 04:35 PM
WOW
WOW
The perpetrators have ADMITTED it.
From beyond the grave ?
QUOTE
Even Atta's dad has admitted it.
WOW
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Even Atta's dad has admitted it. |
WOW
The perpetrators have ADMITTED it.
From beyond the grave ?
QUOTE (frater plecticus+Feb 6 2006, 12:56 PM)
adoucette Feb 6 2006, 04:35 PM
WOW
WOW
The perpetrators have ADMITTED it.
From beyond the grave ?
No, there are no phone lines to Hell.
The perpetrators who sent the young men to their death admitted it.
Arthur
Arthur, I thought we had already clarified who was going to be sent to hell.
Arthur, I thought we had already clarified who was going to be sent to hell.
BUSH IN HELL
At the bottom of Dante’s Inferno, in that third part of the traitors’ ninth circle which is
called Tolomea, Dante and Vergil encounter a certain Frate Alberigo of Faenza. Tolomea is devoted to that species of traitors who have betrayed their own guests. The peculiarity of Frate Alberigo is that he is apparently alive on earth, even while his soul is being tormented in the depths of Hell. Frate Alberigo explains that in cases of particularly heinous betrayal, the damned soul departs from the body and descends directly into Hell. The body remains alive, but it is operated by a demon during the rest of its natural life span.
Something similar happened to Bush when he betrayed his oath of office by turning the US government over to the rogue network on 9/11. The demon has been in control ever since.
If you think that "The perpetrators who sent the young men to their death admitted it. " is worthy enough to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Bin-Laden/ Al Qaeda was responsible for the heinous crimes of 9-11, then you (as an apparent scientist) have made the unforgivable error of working past the available data .
QUOTE
Even Atta's dad has admitted it.
WOW
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Even Atta's dad has admitted it. |
WOW
The perpetrators have ADMITTED it.
From beyond the grave ?
No, there are no phone lines to Hell.
The perpetrators who sent the young men to their death admitted it.
Arthur
Quote;arthur
No, there are no phone lines to Hell.
1-202-666-BUSH
No, there are no phone lines to Hell.
1-202-666-BUSH
QUOTE
No, there are no phone lines to Hell.
Arthur, I thought we had already clarified who was going to be sent to hell.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| No, there are no phone lines to Hell. |
Arthur, I thought we had already clarified who was going to be sent to hell.
BUSH IN HELL
At the bottom of Dante’s Inferno, in that third part of the traitors’ ninth circle which is
called Tolomea, Dante and Vergil encounter a certain Frate Alberigo of Faenza. Tolomea is devoted to that species of traitors who have betrayed their own guests. The peculiarity of Frate Alberigo is that he is apparently alive on earth, even while his soul is being tormented in the depths of Hell. Frate Alberigo explains that in cases of particularly heinous betrayal, the damned soul departs from the body and descends directly into Hell. The body remains alive, but it is operated by a demon during the rest of its natural life span.
Something similar happened to Bush when he betrayed his oath of office by turning the US government over to the rogue network on 9/11. The demon has been in control ever since.
If you think that "The perpetrators who sent the young men to their death admitted it. " is worthy enough to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Bin-Laden/ Al Qaeda was responsible for the heinous crimes of 9-11, then you (as an apparent scientist) have made the unforgivable error of working past the available data .
And you Frater can't stick to physics on a PHYSICS board.
I take it that is because the Physics doesn't support your position.
I'm sure there are ARE sites devoted to this side of 9/11. I'm guessing you got spanked on them and have been looking for sites where the regulars aren't as well versed in the politics.
Am I right?
Arthur
I take it that is because the Physics doesn't support your position.
I'm sure there are ARE sites devoted to this side of 9/11. I'm guessing you got spanked on them and have been looking for sites where the regulars aren't as well versed in the politics.
Am I right?
Arthur
QUOTE (hereward+Feb 6 2006, 06:55 AM)
QUOTE (lenbrazil+Feb 6 2006, 01:51 AM)
QUOTE (lenbrazil+Feb 5 2006, 11:57 PM)
I have a question for all the CT's out there.
Can you name any: ______________ who after studying the evidence believe explosives were used to bring down the towers? Not just in the US any where in the World. I far as I know none have done so publicly
A] civil engineers,
B] licensed architects,
C] construction contractors or
D] demolition experts*,
Len
* In the days following 9/11 a Chinese civil engineer and an American mining engineer/explosives expert said after seeing video of the collapses that they looked like controlled demo. The American retracted his assessment after studying the evidence, the Chinese engineer has been silent on the subject ever since.
LenBrazil,
Have you ever heard of a guy by the name of Nicholas Copernicus? He wrote this treatise a few hundred years ago, suggesting that the earth revolves around the Sun. Up till that time none of the "experts" in any relevent fields had been prepared to publish a similar statement, although I suspect many were secretly in agreement with him.
The reason all the experts kept quiet about their views was possibly due to the fear of being charged with heresy and losing their jobs, or worse. To be guilty of heresy was, in medieval times, a very serious matter. Copernicus himself was forced to retract his views on threat of ex-communication.
Later Galileo decided to stick his neck out and advocate the Copernican theory. Galileo was arrested and tried for heresy.
These days the heretics are called whistle blowers and they don't get burned at the stake, but they do get burned in other ways, and they often lose their jobs, their marriages and their health. It is a big price to pay.
So, is the fact that civil engineers, architects and demolitions experts are not publicly advocating the controlled demolition theory proof that they all agree with the official theory? I suspect not.
On the other hand, I put it to you: why have we not seen a peer reviewed rebuttal of the theory that WTC 7 was brought down by explosives?
Your analogy/analysis doesn’t really apply here because it does take into account members of these professions outside the US, esp. those in countries hostile to the US and/or Islamic counties (where explanations taking Muslims ‘off the hook’ would be welcome) or even countries friendly to the US but where emotions about 9/11 don’t run so high. I doubt even in Canada this would be an issue. Nor does it take into account the dozens of Americans with a wide variety of professions who publicly embrace (“unofficial”) 9/11 CTs.
There must be at least a million civil engineers worldwide*. Brazil’s Oscar Niemeyer is a national hero and an arch-Communist, he hates the US and continues to be a “think outside the box” architect well into his 90s, but he didn’t say anything, why not? What about architects and engineers from Muslim countries where IIRC about 80 % of the population believes 9/11 was an “inside job” or other countries hostile to the US? What about Cuban, Chinese and French experts. Surprisingly not one of them said anything. Saying the towers were demolished would not lead to them being ostracized, I would imagine quite the opposite.
Even in the US the supposed threat of ostracism or job loss has not stopped scientists and academics from publicly stating their controversial views publicly in groups like “SPINE” and “Academics for 9/11 Truth” etc. What about the various webmasters and authors of books alleging conspiracy, have any of them been ‘burned’? What ill effects have Griffith and Rupert suffered other than making small fortunes peddling conspiracies? I am sure some one will want to mention the case of that guy from UL who got fired, but IIRC he got bounced for using UL letterhead and if he had expressed his views as a private individual he probably would still be employed. As for job security how many of these professionals are public servants (who can’t be fired for expressing their views) or tenured college professors or retired?
This rationalization sells civil engineers and architects short. Various physicists, electrical engineers and other scientists, economists, computer scientists, MDs are members of the “9/11 truth” movement. No to mention that the history of science is full brave souls who weren’t afraid of scorn and put forth theories that were greatly at odds with accepted beliefs. Many it turn out were wrong and are now “footnotes” but others like Galileo, Copernicus, Darwin, Einstein, Freud etc “rewrote the science books”. There are many less famous examples: the winners of this year’s Nobel Prize for Medicine disagreed with prevailing opinion about the causes of ulcers, there are medical researchers who don’t believe that HIV causes AIDS, they are pariahs in the research community but they persist. Recently astronomers, physical anthropologists an undoubtedly scientist in other fields have gone against prevailing opinion.
Why should civil engineers and architects be any different? Frank Lloyd Wright, I.M. Pei, van der Rohe, Le Corbusier, Niemeyer, those responsible for the WTC, Ingall's Building, Home Insurance Building etc. etc. were not afraid to break norms.There was a civil engineer who publicly backed “Creationism” and Arthur Butz a professor of Electrical Engineering at Northwestern is a leading Holocaust denier. Although these positions have nothing to do with engineering I'm sure this doesn’t make them very popular with their colleagues. Butz will never be invited to address the IEEE [Institute of Electrical & Electronics Engineers].
The ASCE (Am. Soc. Of Civil Engineers) has “over 137,500 members”* the AIA (Am. Inst. of Arch.) has “more than 75,000”** members that gives a total of over 212,000. Are all of them so “blind“ that none of them perceive what CTs claim are violations of basic laws of physics obvious to anyone or don’t have the courage to come forward? Hard to believe. If there was some thing wrong with the “collapse theory” a it least a few at the very least should have said something. If they based their contrary views there is no reason to believe they would ostracized at all let alone to the extent CTs think.
The Copernicus analogy does not hold. In his day as you freely admit the consequences of heresy were extremely severe, as I have shown above the consequences of speaking out should not be a factor. In his day there were not any layman said or believed the Sun was the center of the “solar” system, today there are thousands if not millions of people who believed the towers were brought down with explosives. In his day ’science’ and ‘religion’ were inexorably tied and the “scientific method” was not used, indeed many date the beginning of the Scientific Revolution to the publication of Copernicus’ works ****, that the Earth was at the center of the Universe was taken as a matter of faith. To be fair to the geoscientists in Copernicus’ day we had far less info about our Universe than we did a few decades later compare this to the collapses of the WTC towers one of the most studied structural failures of all time.
If the excepted explanation of the collapses of the Towers so violates scientific principles as many 9/11 conspiracists believe there is no logical explanation why no relevant experts from anywhere in the World would not come forward publicly. The fact that more than four years later none have this leads to only one inevitable conclusion, the Towers collapsed due to the impact damage caused by large jets crashing into them at high speed and the resultant fires.
Did Bush plan 9/11? I wouldn’t put it past the SOB but think it highly unlikely. Did he know about it but do nothing or did he intentionally “provoke” Muslim extremists? Possibly but the evidence in support of such theories is not very convincing. Was he negligently disinterested in the threat of terrorism before 9/11? I would say definitely so, but these questions are outside the scope of this thread
* If there are over 212,000 just in the US, the Worldwide total is easily over 1 million.
** http://www.asce.org/inside/profile.cfm
***http://aia.org/join_categories
**** http://www.anselm.edu/homepage/dbanach/timel.htm
Can you name any: ______________ who after studying the evidence believe explosives were used to bring down the towers? Not just in the US any where in the World. I far as I know none have done so publicly
A] civil engineers,
B] licensed architects,
C] construction contractors or
D] demolition experts*,
Len
* In the days following 9/11 a Chinese civil engineer and an American mining engineer/explosives expert said after seeing video of the collapses that they looked like controlled demo. The American retracted his assessment after studying the evidence, the Chinese engineer has been silent on the subject ever since.
LenBrazil,
Have you ever heard of a guy by the name of Nicholas Copernicus? He wrote this treatise a few hundred years ago, suggesting that the earth revolves around the Sun. Up till that time none of the "experts" in any relevent fields had been prepared to publish a similar statement, although I suspect many were secretly in agreement with him.
The reason all the experts kept quiet about their views was possibly due to the fear of being charged with heresy and losing their jobs, or worse. To be guilty of heresy was, in medieval times, a very serious matter. Copernicus himself was forced to retract his views on threat of ex-communication.
Later Galileo decided to stick his neck out and advocate the Copernican theory. Galileo was arrested and tried for heresy.
These days the heretics are called whistle blowers and they don't get burned at the stake, but they do get burned in other ways, and they often lose their jobs, their marriages and their health. It is a big price to pay.
So, is the fact that civil engineers, architects and demolitions experts are not publicly advocating the controlled demolition theory proof that they all agree with the official theory? I suspect not.
On the other hand, I put it to you: why have we not seen a peer reviewed rebuttal of the theory that WTC 7 was brought down by explosives?
Your analogy/analysis doesn’t really apply here because it does take into account members of these professions outside the US, esp. those in countries hostile to the US and/or Islamic counties (where explanations taking Muslims ‘off the hook’ would be welcome) or even countries friendly to the US but where emotions about 9/11 don’t run so high. I doubt even in Canada this would be an issue. Nor does it take into account the dozens of Americans with a wide variety of professions who publicly embrace (“unofficial”) 9/11 CTs.
There must be at least a million civil engineers worldwide*. Brazil’s Oscar Niemeyer is a national hero and an arch-Communist, he hates the US and continues to be a “think outside the box” architect well into his 90s, but he didn’t say anything, why not? What about architects and engineers from Muslim countries where IIRC about 80 % of the population believes 9/11 was an “inside job” or other countries hostile to the US? What about Cuban, Chinese and French experts. Surprisingly not one of them said anything. Saying the towers were demolished would not lead to them being ostracized, I would imagine quite the opposite.
Even in the US the supposed threat of ostracism or job loss has not stopped scientists and academics from publicly stating their controversial views publicly in groups like “SPINE” and “Academics for 9/11 Truth” etc. What about the various webmasters and authors of books alleging conspiracy, have any of them been ‘burned’? What ill effects have Griffith and Rupert suffered other than making small fortunes peddling conspiracies? I am sure some one will want to mention the case of that guy from UL who got fired, but IIRC he got bounced for using UL letterhead and if he had expressed his views as a private individual he probably would still be employed. As for job security how many of these professionals are public servants (who can’t be fired for expressing their views) or tenured college professors or retired?
This rationalization sells civil engineers and architects short. Various physicists, electrical engineers and other scientists, economists, computer scientists, MDs are members of the “9/11 truth” movement. No to mention that the history of science is full brave souls who weren’t afraid of scorn and put forth theories that were greatly at odds with accepted beliefs. Many it turn out were wrong and are now “footnotes” but others like Galileo, Copernicus, Darwin, Einstein, Freud etc “rewrote the science books”. There are many less famous examples: the winners of this year’s Nobel Prize for Medicine disagreed with prevailing opinion about the causes of ulcers, there are medical researchers who don’t believe that HIV causes AIDS, they are pariahs in the research community but they persist. Recently astronomers, physical anthropologists an undoubtedly scientist in other fields have gone against prevailing opinion.
Why should civil engineers and architects be any different? Frank Lloyd Wright, I.M. Pei, van der Rohe, Le Corbusier, Niemeyer, those responsible for the WTC, Ingall's Building, Home Insurance Building etc. etc. were not afraid to break norms.There was a civil engineer who publicly backed “Creationism” and Arthur Butz a professor of Electrical Engineering at Northwestern is a leading Holocaust denier. Although these positions have nothing to do with engineering I'm sure this doesn’t make them very popular with their colleagues. Butz will never be invited to address the IEEE [Institute of Electrical & Electronics Engineers].
The ASCE (Am. Soc. Of Civil Engineers) has “over 137,500 members”* the AIA (Am. Inst. of Arch.) has “more than 75,000”** members that gives a total of over 212,000. Are all of them so “blind“ that none of them perceive what CTs claim are violations of basic laws of physics obvious to anyone or don’t have the courage to come forward? Hard to believe. If there was some thing wrong with the “collapse theory” a it least a few at the very least should have said something. If they based their contrary views there is no reason to believe they would ostracized at all let alone to the extent CTs think.
The Copernicus analogy does not hold. In his day as you freely admit the consequences of heresy were extremely severe, as I have shown above the consequences of speaking out should not be a factor. In his day there were not any layman said or believed the Sun was the center of the “solar” system, today there are thousands if not millions of people who believed the towers were brought down with explosives. In his day ’science’ and ‘religion’ were inexorably tied and the “scientific method” was not used, indeed many date the beginning of the Scientific Revolution to the publication of Copernicus’ works ****, that the Earth was at the center of the Universe was taken as a matter of faith. To be fair to the geoscientists in Copernicus’ day we had far less info about our Universe than we did a few decades later compare this to the collapses of the WTC towers one of the most studied structural failures of all time.
If the excepted explanation of the collapses of the Towers so violates scientific principles as many 9/11 conspiracists believe there is no logical explanation why no relevant experts from anywhere in the World would not come forward publicly. The fact that more than four years later none have this leads to only one inevitable conclusion, the Towers collapsed due to the impact damage caused by large jets crashing into them at high speed and the resultant fires.
Did Bush plan 9/11? I wouldn’t put it past the SOB but think it highly unlikely. Did he know about it but do nothing or did he intentionally “provoke” Muslim extremists? Possibly but the evidence in support of such theories is not very convincing. Was he negligently disinterested in the threat of terrorism before 9/11? I would say definitely so, but these questions are outside the scope of this thread
* If there are over 212,000 just in the US, the Worldwide total is easily over 1 million.
** http://www.asce.org/inside/profile.cfm
***http://aia.org/join_categories
**** http://www.anselm.edu/homepage/dbanach/timel.htm
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 6 2006, 03:09 AM)
Hmmm... seems like Yesitdid has called for back-ups from Apollo Hoax.com. These people consider themselves 'professional' de-bunkers of 'myths'. Too bad they didn't focus more attention on the original gov't FEMA Fairy Tale. They would have found a goldmine to debunk. Sorry AHers, the 'Guardian' already beat you to it on that 'official' story.
LenBrazil posted a very relevant thread over at AH entitled Participants' technical backgrounds...

Quote: Now there's a man with an open mind - you can feel the breeze from here!
Joined: Aug 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 343
Location: Olinda, Brazil
Thread Started on Oct 20, 2005, 9:05 pm
I would be interested in knowing what peoples' technical backgrounds are. Many if not most of the arguments about CT [esp. 9/11] here revolve around technical issues. Many people make statements about scientific principles that make it sound like they have technical training, but they could just be avid readers. Sometimes these statements are made without attribution so knowing a person's background would be helpful in determining if they know what they are talking about.
I freely admit that my scientific background is close to zero even though my dad has a PhD in organic chemistry and was a scientific consultant. I can barely remember the science I learned in high school. I got a BA in History from Oberlin 18 years ago. I think my talent in arguing with CTists lies in spotting logical holes [as opposed to technical ones] in their arguments.
Many of you have mentioned your backgrounds in various posts. But I think having one place where people discuss their technical backgrounds would be helpful to me and others. I am not just talking about degrees and jobs. I think saying for example "I'm high school drop out and cab driver but have read dozens of technical books about...." would be valid.
Hopefully no one will be prone to exaggeration
I debated about where to place this thread. One could argue it belongs in General Discussion or that it make just as much sense to put in Apollo Hoax as here, but in the end I decided this was the most appropriate place.
Quotes:
Bertrand Russell - "I think we ought always to entertain our opinions with some measure of doubt"
To paraphrase Mark Twain "The CTists' claims are both convincing and true, unfortunately what's convincing is not true, and what's true is not convincing"
Numerous 'associates' signed into the thread explaining their 'technical backgrounds'...I.E -
Fnord Fred
echnaton
Bob B.
frenat
gwiz
Al Johnson
Jay Utah
PhantomWolf
sts60
craiglamson
nomuse
PeterB
{and YID / 'Yesitdid' ... under the name of 'jaydeehess' }
(No comment from LenBrazil on any of those persons technical background... no matter how weak and unrelated to 9/11 events those persons 'technical qualifications' were)
Then a person (who had been classed as a 'CTer') decided to post his own....
Numerous 'associates' signed into the thread explaining their 'technical backgrounds'...I.E -
Fnord Fred
echnaton
Bob B.
frenat
gwiz
Al Johnson
Jay Utah
PhantomWolf
sts60
craiglamson
nomuse
PeterB
{and YID / 'Yesitdid' ... under the name of 'jaydeehess' }
(No comment from LenBrazil on any of those persons technical background... no matter how weak and unrelated to 9/11 events those persons 'technical qualifications' were)
Then a person (who had been classed as a 'CTer') decided to post his own....
BSc (Hons) in Biochemistry (got a first, and am still rather jazzed about that!) in 2001, with a number of years' experience in protein structure research. Currently I'm doing something completely different developing blood diagnostic devices.
I took A-levels in chemistry, biology, physics and mathematics, and aced them all. While that doesn't provide me with in-depth technical knowledge, it does provide an adequate background to recognise a fair amount of scientific and technical BS when I see it (such as David Groves's experiments, tucked away in the appendices of Dark Moon).
Although 'Objective Len' had not responded to any of the previous posters, no more than 1/2 hr later after the above post... Len posted this reply regarding the above persons 'technical qualifications'...
http://apollohoax.proboards21.com/index.cg...ge=1#1130164786
Amazing 'logic' by LenBrazil.
In essence he argues that even though his "scientific background is close to zero", he feels qualified to attack persons with the above technical qualifications as posted by the "CTer".... completely dismissing the fact that his attack-statement could be equally applied to each of the previous posters, (nevertheless ...'they'... shared his anti-conspiratorial 'beliefs'... so he did not apply the same level of 'dismissal' to those other posters.
'This one' loves semantics, (even moreso than his compatriot YID).
Now that the 'introductions' are over, carry on...
Len, what do you bring related to science or physics to this thread?
Foxx – It this post is a representative example, your posts here are just as spurious as those you made at Apollo Hoax.
1 – I showed up here because Metamars started posting there and left a link to this thread.
2- The biochemist whose post and my reply to it you cited had not“been classed as a 'CTer'” quite to the contrary, he ridicules “the Moon landings were faked” and other conspiracy theories as his BS comment should have made clear. My reply to him was in jest, mocking PhDs like Fetzer, Costella, Jones and Butz who support lunatic notions outside their areas of expertise but play up the three letters after their names to pose as authorities. – Try to get your facts straight, Foxx!!! ROTF
adoucette Feb 6 2006, 05:40 PM
What exactly is my position, then Arthur ?
Good last post, lenbrazil.
I have worked for 5 years as a civil engineer. I have many, many contacts in the industry (mainly in England), i would say that approx 50% of them believe that explosives were used during the collapse of the towers on 9-11. the big problem, is that
many, many, people are afraid to speak out.
The level of absurdity required in believing that 50% of the Civil Engineers in England believe that explosives were used during 9-11 pales into insignificance when considering the sheer and absolute level of absurdity required to believe the "official conspiracy theory", which falls apart under any type of close inspection or structural analysis .
The level of absurdity required to believe that 50% of the Civil Engineers in England believing that explosives were used during 9-11 pales into insignificance when considering the sheer and absolute level of absurdity required to believe the "official conspiracy theory" which falls apart under any type of close inspection or structural analysis .
You mean like the close inspection and analysis that NIST performed and documented and for which there has been no PEER REVIEWED repudiation of?
Arthur
LenBrazil posted a very relevant thread over at AH entitled Participants' technical backgrounds...
QUOTE

Quote: Now there's a man with an open mind - you can feel the breeze from here!
Joined: Aug 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 343
Location: Olinda, Brazil
Thread Started on Oct 20, 2005, 9:05 pm
I would be interested in knowing what peoples' technical backgrounds are. Many if not most of the arguments about CT [esp. 9/11] here revolve around technical issues. Many people make statements about scientific principles that make it sound like they have technical training, but they could just be avid readers. Sometimes these statements are made without attribution so knowing a person's background would be helpful in determining if they know what they are talking about.
I freely admit that my scientific background is close to zero even though my dad has a PhD in organic chemistry and was a scientific consultant. I can barely remember the science I learned in high school. I got a BA in History from Oberlin 18 years ago. I think my talent in arguing with CTists lies in spotting logical holes [as opposed to technical ones] in their arguments.
Many of you have mentioned your backgrounds in various posts. But I think having one place where people discuss their technical backgrounds would be helpful to me and others. I am not just talking about degrees and jobs. I think saying for example "I'm high school drop out and cab driver but have read dozens of technical books about...." would be valid.
Hopefully no one will be prone to exaggeration
I debated about where to place this thread. One could argue it belongs in General Discussion or that it make just as much sense to put in Apollo Hoax as here, but in the end I decided this was the most appropriate place.
Quotes:
Bertrand Russell - "I think we ought always to entertain our opinions with some measure of doubt"
To paraphrase Mark Twain "The CTists' claims are both convincing and true, unfortunately what's convincing is not true, and what's true is not convincing"
Numerous 'associates' signed into the thread explaining their 'technical backgrounds'...I.E -
Fnord Fred
echnaton
Bob B.
frenat
gwiz
Al Johnson
Jay Utah
PhantomWolf
sts60
craiglamson
nomuse
PeterB
{and YID / 'Yesitdid' ... under the name of 'jaydeehess' }
(No comment from LenBrazil on any of those persons technical background... no matter how weak and unrelated to 9/11 events those persons 'technical qualifications' were)
Then a person (who had been classed as a 'CTer') decided to post his own....
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
![]() Quote: Now there's a man with an open mind - you can feel the breeze from here! Joined: Aug 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 343 Location: Olinda, Brazil Thread Started on Oct 20, 2005, 9:05 pm I would be interested in knowing what peoples' technical backgrounds are. Many if not most of the arguments about CT [esp. 9/11] here revolve around technical issues. Many people make statements about scientific principles that make it sound like they have technical training, but they could just be avid readers. Sometimes these statements are made without attribution so knowing a person's background would be helpful in determining if they know what they are talking about. I freely admit that my scientific background is close to zero even though my dad has a PhD in organic chemistry and was a scientific consultant. I can barely remember the science I learned in high school. I got a BA in History from Oberlin 18 years ago. I think my talent in arguing with CTists lies in spotting logical holes [as opposed to technical ones] in their arguments. Many of you have mentioned your backgrounds in various posts. But I think having one place where people discuss their technical backgrounds would be helpful to me and others. I am not just talking about degrees and jobs. I think saying for example "I'm high school drop out and cab driver but have read dozens of technical books about...." would be valid. Hopefully no one will be prone to exaggeration I debated about where to place this thread. One could argue it belongs in General Discussion or that it make just as much sense to put in Apollo Hoax as here, but in the end I decided this was the most appropriate place. Quotes: Bertrand Russell - "I think we ought always to entertain our opinions with some measure of doubt" To paraphrase Mark Twain "The CTists' claims are both convincing and true, unfortunately what's convincing is not true, and what's true is not convincing" |
Numerous 'associates' signed into the thread explaining their 'technical backgrounds'...I.E -
Fnord Fred
echnaton
Bob B.
frenat
gwiz
Al Johnson
Jay Utah
PhantomWolf
sts60
craiglamson
nomuse
PeterB
{and YID / 'Yesitdid' ... under the name of 'jaydeehess' }
(No comment from LenBrazil on any of those persons technical background... no matter how weak and unrelated to 9/11 events those persons 'technical qualifications' were)
Then a person (who had been classed as a 'CTer') decided to post his own....
BSc (Hons) in Biochemistry (got a first, and am still rather jazzed about that!) in 2001, with a number of years' experience in protein structure research. Currently I'm doing something completely different developing blood diagnostic devices.
I took A-levels in chemistry, biology, physics and mathematics, and aced them all. While that doesn't provide me with in-depth technical knowledge, it does provide an adequate background to recognise a fair amount of scientific and technical BS when I see it (such as David Groves's experiments, tucked away in the appendices of Dark Moon).
Although 'Objective Len' had not responded to any of the previous posters, no more than 1/2 hr later after the above post... Len posted this reply regarding the above persons 'technical qualifications'...
http://apollohoax.proboards21.com/index.cg...ge=1#1130164786
QUOTE
Originally posted by LenBrazil
Great you have a science degree in an unrelated field [no offense] we can quote as an expert on such subjects as
why WTCs 1 & 2 collapsed
if they fell too quickly
why WTC 7 collapsed
if it fell to quickly
if the hole in the Pentagon was the right size
whether the wreckage of flights 77 and 93 corresponds to the "official" explanation
if it's possible to make a cell phone call from a plane
Great you have a science degree in an unrelated field [no offense] we can quote as an expert on such subjects as
why WTCs 1 & 2 collapsed
if they fell too quickly
why WTC 7 collapsed
if it fell to quickly
if the hole in the Pentagon was the right size
whether the wreckage of flights 77 and 93 corresponds to the "official" explanation
if it's possible to make a cell phone call from a plane
Amazing 'logic' by LenBrazil.
In essence he argues that even though his "scientific background is close to zero", he feels qualified to attack persons with the above technical qualifications as posted by the "CTer".... completely dismissing the fact that his attack-statement could be equally applied to each of the previous posters, (nevertheless ...'they'... shared his anti-conspiratorial 'beliefs'... so he did not apply the same level of 'dismissal' to those other posters.
'This one' loves semantics, (even moreso than his compatriot YID).
Now that the 'introductions' are over, carry on...
Len, what do you bring related to science or physics to this thread?
Foxx – It this post is a representative example, your posts here are just as spurious as those you made at Apollo Hoax.
1 – I showed up here because Metamars started posting there and left a link to this thread.
2- The biochemist whose post and my reply to it you cited had not“been classed as a 'CTer'” quite to the contrary, he ridicules “the Moon landings were faked” and other conspiracy theories as his BS comment should have made clear. My reply to him was in jest, mocking PhDs like Fetzer, Costella, Jones and Butz who support lunatic notions outside their areas of expertise but play up the three letters after their names to pose as authorities. – Try to get your facts straight, Foxx!!! ROTF
adoucette Feb 6 2006, 05:40 PM
QUOTE
I take it that is because the Physics doesn't support your position.
What exactly is my position, then Arthur ?
Good last post, lenbrazil.
I have worked for 5 years as a civil engineer. I have many, many contacts in the industry (mainly in England), i would say that approx 50% of them believe that explosives were used during the collapse of the towers on 9-11. the big problem, is that
many, many, people are afraid to speak out.
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 6 2006, 03:41 AM)
BTW, Len... this question has been addressed here before.
Perhaps you should go back to the beginning of the thread and read through the whole thing, so that you are not simply proposing questions that have already been addressed (both here and at AH).
Let's not go round in circles... (just for your convenience).
I think this non-starter question was best addressed by metamars.
The question you ask seems to you (I'm sure) to be more relevant than it really is.
Cheers
Foxx
If indeed "this question has been addressed here before" I am surprised that no one else is saying so. I also doubt it because if you had a good answer to the question I imagine you would have given it at AH. If however there is a consensus on this thread that the issue no longer needs any furthur discussion I'll drop it.
I don't know if you or other CTs have already adressed the question adequately here or noit but you certainly didn't do so at AH.
You of course believe the question is an irrelevant non starter because it is amajor blow to your little pet theory. Ironic how the CTs trot out psyedo-experts like Jones and the ex head of a UL water safety lab, but you think the lack of any expert backing is not relevant.
If it truely is not relevant why did Scholars for 9/11 Truth have this desperate plea on the top of their homepage
EDIT formatting error fixed
Perhaps you should go back to the beginning of the thread and read through the whole thing, so that you are not simply proposing questions that have already been addressed (both here and at AH).
Let's not go round in circles... (just for your convenience).
I think this non-starter question was best addressed by metamars.
The question you ask seems to you (I'm sure) to be more relevant than it really is.
Cheers
Foxx
If indeed "this question has been addressed here before" I am surprised that no one else is saying so. I also doubt it because if you had a good answer to the question I imagine you would have given it at AH. If however there is a consensus on this thread that the issue no longer needs any furthur discussion I'll drop it.
I don't know if you or other CTs have already adressed the question adequately here or noit but you certainly didn't do so at AH.
You of course believe the question is an irrelevant non starter because it is amajor blow to your little pet theory. Ironic how the CTs trot out psyedo-experts like Jones and the ex head of a UL water safety lab, but you think the lack of any expert backing is not relevant.
If it truely is not relevant why did Scholars for 9/11 Truth have this desperate plea on the top of their homepage
QUOTE
Wanted: honest members with technical backgrounds. Skeptics are desirable, especially skeptics with civil and construction engineering backgrounds.
http://apollohoax.proboards21.com/index.cg...e=81#1138554196?
http://apollohoax.proboards21.com/index.cg...e=81#1138554196?
EDIT formatting error fixed
Philosophical skepticism, or pyrrhonism, is a philosophical position that refrains from making truth claims. A skeptic does not claim that truth is impossible (which would be a truth claim). The word is commonly used to describe other philosophies which appear similar, for instance "academic" skepticism, which was an ancient variant of platonism according to which knowledge of truth was impossible. Empiricism is a closely related position which can be seen as a pragmatic compromise between skepticism and nomothetic science; skepticism is sometimes refered to as "radical empiricism."
Religious and scientific skepticism
Religious skepticism and scientific skepticism are not actually related to philosophical skepticism. Most people who are skeptical of claims of the paranormal and supernatural are not adherents of classical philosophical skepticism. Where as a philosophical skeptic may deny the very existence of knowledge, a religious or scientific skeptic merely seeks proof before accepting extraordinary claims. Scientific skeptics employ critical thinking.
Religious skeptics often focus on the core tenets of religions, such as the existence of divine beings or reports of earthly miracles, while scientific skeptics tend to target cryptozoology, UFO encounters, and alternative science. Specifically when critics of controversial religious, scientific or paranormal claims are said to be skeptical, this only refers to their taking a position of doubt.
Skeptics and cynics
Scientific skeptics are often confused with, or even denounced as, cynics. However, useful skeptical criticism must involve an objective and methodological examination of the subject. Cynicism, on the other hand, is a viewpoint that maintains a generally negative attitude toward human motivations and sincerity. While the two positions are not mutually exclusive, each represents a fundamentally different philosophical approach to understanding the nature of the world.
Many critics accuse scientific skeptics of being "closed-minded" or of inhibiting scientific progress. However, some supporters of scientific skepticism argue that these criticisms come from pseudoscientists, paranormalists, and spiritualists who are motivated to discredit rational investigation of their claims.
Debunkers
Debunkers are a particular group of skeptics who are adept at exposing the truth behind the extraordinary claims of charlatans. Famous debunkers include James Randi, Michael Shermer, Basava Premanand, Penn and Teller and Harry Houdini.
Since the issues of dispute being treated usually require deep understanding of a subject, heated discussions may arise in the public based more on one's own opinion rather than factual analysis. Flame wars can arise in the public, with debunkers offended by the deception of charlatans and the gullibility of their public, and the latter ones offended by the allegations of the debunkers.
Scientific skepticism as Inertia
Scientific skepticism is both useful to, and required by scientists. As many new scientific papers contain material errors that render their conclusions incorrect, uncritical acceptance of all new discoveries would quickly bog down scientific progress. The bias against new ideas and unusual inventions tends to quickly weed out the hoaxes and experimental flukes. While such a cautious approach towards new ideas may mean that some ideas are initially dismissed, independent corroboration is rarely difficult for legitimate discoveries. Controversy is common among scientists when new hypotheses are first presented, until reproducibility can ensure that experimental results can be repeated according to the scientific method. As a consequence, many scientists reject all new discoveries until the results have been independently confirmed. This may seem extreme, but in addition to honest mistakes in experimentation or statistical analysis, there are also charlatans who seek to profit from the momentary fame of a false discovery.
In January 1905, more than a year after Wilbur and Orville Wright had flown their historic first flight at Kitty Hawk on December 17, 1903, Scientific American magazine carried an article doubting "alleged" flights that the Wrights claimed to have made. With sombre authority, the magazine cited as its main reasons for doubting the Wrights the fact that they had not invited the American press to cover the alleged flights, that they refused to disclose the details of their flying machines, and that they were unwilling to repeat the demonstration for verification purposes. Critics of skeptics like to point to this as an example of how scientists slow down the acceptance of new inventions, however the Wright Brothers were intentionally keeping their inventions secret until they could achieve fully controlled flight, mostly to keep their competitors from appropriating their inventions.
Most revolutionary modern day inventions, such as the scanning tunneling microscope, invented in 1981, are subject to intense skepticism and even ridicule when they are first announced. However, those inventions which can survive the gauntlet of disbelief are just as quickly accepted. For example, less than a year after being laughed off a stage in Australia during a presentation on their new microscope, Gerd Binnig and Heinrich Rohrer won the Nobel Prize in physics.
Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal
http://www.csicop.org/si/online.html
Religious and scientific skepticism
Religious skepticism and scientific skepticism are not actually related to philosophical skepticism. Most people who are skeptical of claims of the paranormal and supernatural are not adherents of classical philosophical skepticism. Where as a philosophical skeptic may deny the very existence of knowledge, a religious or scientific skeptic merely seeks proof before accepting extraordinary claims. Scientific skeptics employ critical thinking.
Religious skeptics often focus on the core tenets of religions, such as the existence of divine beings or reports of earthly miracles, while scientific skeptics tend to target cryptozoology, UFO encounters, and alternative science. Specifically when critics of controversial religious, scientific or paranormal claims are said to be skeptical, this only refers to their taking a position of doubt.
Skeptics and cynics
Scientific skeptics are often confused with, or even denounced as, cynics. However, useful skeptical criticism must involve an objective and methodological examination of the subject. Cynicism, on the other hand, is a viewpoint that maintains a generally negative attitude toward human motivations and sincerity. While the two positions are not mutually exclusive, each represents a fundamentally different philosophical approach to understanding the nature of the world.
Many critics accuse scientific skeptics of being "closed-minded" or of inhibiting scientific progress. However, some supporters of scientific skepticism argue that these criticisms come from pseudoscientists, paranormalists, and spiritualists who are motivated to discredit rational investigation of their claims.
Debunkers
Debunkers are a particular group of skeptics who are adept at exposing the truth behind the extraordinary claims of charlatans. Famous debunkers include James Randi, Michael Shermer, Basava Premanand, Penn and Teller and Harry Houdini.
Since the issues of dispute being treated usually require deep understanding of a subject, heated discussions may arise in the public based more on one's own opinion rather than factual analysis. Flame wars can arise in the public, with debunkers offended by the deception of charlatans and the gullibility of their public, and the latter ones offended by the allegations of the debunkers.
Scientific skepticism as Inertia
Scientific skepticism is both useful to, and required by scientists. As many new scientific papers contain material errors that render their conclusions incorrect, uncritical acceptance of all new discoveries would quickly bog down scientific progress. The bias against new ideas and unusual inventions tends to quickly weed out the hoaxes and experimental flukes. While such a cautious approach towards new ideas may mean that some ideas are initially dismissed, independent corroboration is rarely difficult for legitimate discoveries. Controversy is common among scientists when new hypotheses are first presented, until reproducibility can ensure that experimental results can be repeated according to the scientific method. As a consequence, many scientists reject all new discoveries until the results have been independently confirmed. This may seem extreme, but in addition to honest mistakes in experimentation or statistical analysis, there are also charlatans who seek to profit from the momentary fame of a false discovery.
In January 1905, more than a year after Wilbur and Orville Wright had flown their historic first flight at Kitty Hawk on December 17, 1903, Scientific American magazine carried an article doubting "alleged" flights that the Wrights claimed to have made. With sombre authority, the magazine cited as its main reasons for doubting the Wrights the fact that they had not invited the American press to cover the alleged flights, that they refused to disclose the details of their flying machines, and that they were unwilling to repeat the demonstration for verification purposes. Critics of skeptics like to point to this as an example of how scientists slow down the acceptance of new inventions, however the Wright Brothers were intentionally keeping their inventions secret until they could achieve fully controlled flight, mostly to keep their competitors from appropriating their inventions.
Most revolutionary modern day inventions, such as the scanning tunneling microscope, invented in 1981, are subject to intense skepticism and even ridicule when they are first announced. However, those inventions which can survive the gauntlet of disbelief are just as quickly accepted. For example, less than a year after being laughed off a stage in Australia during a presentation on their new microscope, Gerd Binnig and Heinrich Rohrer won the Nobel Prize in physics.
Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal
http://www.csicop.org/si/online.html
QUOTE (frater plecticus+Feb 6 2006, 02:04 PM)
adoucette Feb 6 2006, 05:40 PM
What exactly is my position, then Arthur ?
Good last post, lenbrazil.
I have worked for 5 years as a civil engineer. I have many, many contacts in the industry (mainly in England), i would say that approx 50% of them believe that explosives were used during the collapse of the towers on 9-11. the big problem, is that
many, many, people are afraid to speak out.
I would summarize your position as:
No proof it was Al Qaeda
Plenty of evidence that the towers were brought down by CD.
At at minimum circumstantial evidence implicating current Admin in LIHOP or MIHOP.
I would however rather you summarize your position, I don't claim to be a expert in all dimensions of F-P lunacy.
As to your contention that 50% of the engineer population in England believe that explosives were used, I find this ABSURD. Once you get to anywhere NEAR that percent there is no fear in speaking what a near majority of your colleagues believe.
These guys go to conventions, user groups etc etc. They meet, they mingle. People with similar ideas tend to naturally congregate. If that large of a percent of these people believed that explosives were involved there is no question that, since they ARE QUALIFIED to express PROFESSIONAL opinions on the matter that that at least one ad-hoc group would not have done so AT LEAST ONCE since 9/11, particularly since the support for Bush/Iraq is much less in the UK then in the US.
Arthur
QUOTE
I take it that is because the Physics doesn't support your position.
What exactly is my position, then Arthur ?
Good last post, lenbrazil.
I have worked for 5 years as a civil engineer. I have many, many contacts in the industry (mainly in England), i would say that approx 50% of them believe that explosives were used during the collapse of the towers on 9-11. the big problem, is that
many, many, people are afraid to speak out.
I would summarize your position as:
No proof it was Al Qaeda
Plenty of evidence that the towers were brought down by CD.
At at minimum circumstantial evidence implicating current Admin in LIHOP or MIHOP.
I would however rather you summarize your position, I don't claim to be a expert in all dimensions of F-P lunacy.
As to your contention that 50% of the engineer population in England believe that explosives were used, I find this ABSURD. Once you get to anywhere NEAR that percent there is no fear in speaking what a near majority of your colleagues believe.
These guys go to conventions, user groups etc etc. They meet, they mingle. People with similar ideas tend to naturally congregate. If that large of a percent of these people believed that explosives were involved there is no question that, since they ARE QUALIFIED to express PROFESSIONAL opinions on the matter that that at least one ad-hoc group would not have done so AT LEAST ONCE since 9/11, particularly since the support for Bush/Iraq is much less in the UK then in the US.
Arthur
QUOTE
As to your contention that 50% of the engineer population in England believe that explosives were used, I find this ABSURD. Once you get to anywhere NEAR that percent there is no fear in speaking what a near majority of your colleagues believe.
The level of absurdity required in believing that 50% of the Civil Engineers in England believe that explosives were used during 9-11 pales into insignificance when considering the sheer and absolute level of absurdity required to believe the "official conspiracy theory", which falls apart under any type of close inspection or structural analysis .
QUOTE (frater plecticus+Feb 6 2006, 02:40 PM)
The level of absurdity required to believe that 50% of the Civil Engineers in England believing that explosives were used during 9-11 pales into insignificance when considering the sheer and absolute level of absurdity required to believe the "official conspiracy theory" which falls apart under any type of close inspection or structural analysis .
You mean like the close inspection and analysis that NIST performed and documented and for which there has been no PEER REVIEWED repudiation of?
Arthur
LooseChange Bog
Fri Oct 21, 2005
Dylan Avery Enigs
" Ok, I'm going to let the cat out of the bag.
I'm leaving for NYC in a few hours to interview none other than Paul Isaac jr.
He wants to clear the air about a couple of things, on the record, and give us some things off the record.
But, i'd like to speak for him ahead of time and say that this article right here?
Yeah, total bullsh*t.(scroll down for Sentinel;Thats him)
"I know 9-11 was an inside job, the police know its an inside job, and the firemen know it too"
He never said anything of the sort. I've got 3 different videos of him and lisa having it out and nothing close to that is ever said.
Somebody's stretching the truth here and I don't think its paul.
Couple that with the complete lack of compliance on the part of chris petherick of AFP who refuses pauls request to remove the article from their website, and the every other website on the internet which is touting that article as gosple, and,well,you could say pauls a little upset.
Rightfully so, But, I'll let him tell the story. I just wanted to vent a little, cause wingtv has not been on the "movements" goodside for some time now, and this insident further throws their character into question"
Dylan Avery Loosechange.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Isaac Jr
Rsqsrvs@yahoo.com
FDNY Auxiliary Fire Corps NYC Civil Defense E207 E294 E10
Former NYPD Auxiliary Police Officer#12017 Registration#438136
61Pct BKsouth 17Pct Manhattan Midtown East
Fri Oct 21, 2005
Dylan Avery Enigs
" Ok, I'm going to let the cat out of the bag.
I'm leaving for NYC in a few hours to interview none other than Paul Isaac jr.
He wants to clear the air about a couple of things, on the record, and give us some things off the record.
But, i'd like to speak for him ahead of time and say that this article right here?
Yeah, total bullsh*t.(scroll down for Sentinel;Thats him)
"I know 9-11 was an inside job, the police know its an inside job, and the firemen know it too"
He never said anything of the sort. I've got 3 different videos of him and lisa having it out and nothing close to that is ever said.
Somebody's stretching the truth here and I don't think its paul.
Couple that with the complete lack of compliance on the part of chris petherick of AFP who refuses pauls request to remove the article from their website, and the every other website on the internet which is touting that article as gosple, and,well,you could say pauls a little upset.
Rightfully so, But, I'll let him tell the story. I just wanted to vent a little, cause wingtv has not been on the "movements" goodside for some time now, and this insident further throws their character into question"
Dylan Avery Loosechange.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Isaac Jr
Rsqsrvs@yahoo.com
FDNY Auxiliary Fire Corps NYC Civil Defense E207 E294 E10
Former NYPD Auxiliary Police Officer#12017 Registration#438136
61Pct BKsouth 17Pct Manhattan Midtown East
I wish to apologize to the board. My wsih was to clear the air regarding the wingtv article because there are alot of different sites covering this article and I've been having a hard time trying to convince them that this is a false article. I didn't want to cause a rukuss over it and I'm sorry if I did, It was not my intention.
Yes, there is some funny things about the collapse senario thats not making sence such as the lateral hit and the verticle drop at freefall speeds. There is a problem with the freefall because it indicates that there had to be a catastrophic failure with in the central core collums at the same time as the initail explosion at collapse time. Example: If you were to shoot at the corner stop sign it would never come strait down it would just keep standing unless there was a catastrophic collapse at the central area.
Something people may want to research is CDIs controlled demolition two months before the attack just across the river in Brooklyn. The keyspan maspeth holder tanks were taken down by CDI on 15 July 2001, you can look up the details at phyllieblast.com . The tanks measured 400ft coincidentally that the same area of tilt in the south tower from the top to the 78floor. You might remember that there MER floors (Mechanical Equipment Rooms) right below impact in the south tower and right above in the north. These were heavily fortified floors which the general public had no access to but there seems to by pushouts (charges) from these area in video.
Take care and be safe
Paul Isaac jr
Rsqsrvs@yahoo.com
Yes, there is some funny things about the collapse senario thats not making sence such as the lateral hit and the verticle drop at freefall speeds. There is a problem with the freefall because it indicates that there had to be a catastrophic failure with in the central core collums at the same time as the initail explosion at collapse time. Example: If you were to shoot at the corner stop sign it would never come strait down it would just keep standing unless there was a catastrophic collapse at the central area.
Something people may want to research is CDIs controlled demolition two months before the attack just across the river in Brooklyn. The keyspan maspeth holder tanks were taken down by CDI on 15 July 2001, you can look up the details at phyllieblast.com . The tanks measured 400ft coincidentally that the same area of tilt in the south tower from the top to the 78floor. You might remember that there MER floors (Mechanical Equipment Rooms) right below impact in the south tower and right above in the north. These were heavily fortified floors which the general public had no access to but there seems to by pushouts (charges) from these area in video.
Take care and be safe
Paul Isaac jr
Rsqsrvs@yahoo.com
QUOTE (lenbrazil+Feb 6 2006, 05:44 PM)
QUOTE (hereward+Feb 6 2006, 06:55 AM)
QUOTE (lenbrazil+Feb 6 2006, 01:51 AM)
QUOTE (lenbrazil+Feb 5 2006, 11:57 PM)
I have a question for all the CT's out there.
Can you name any: ______________ who after studying the evidence believe explosives were used to bring down the towers? Not just in the US any where in the World. I far as I know none have done so publicly
A] civil engineers,
B] licensed architects,
C] construction contractors or
D] demolition experts*,
Len
* In the days following 9/11 a Chinese civil engineer and an American mining engineer/explosives expert said after seeing video of the collapses that they looked like controlled demo. The American retracted his assessment after studying the evidence, the Chinese engineer has been silent on the subject ever since.
LenBrazil,
Have you ever heard of a guy by the name of Nicholas Copernicus? He wrote this treatise a few hundred years ago, suggesting that the earth revolves around the Sun. Up till that time none of the "experts" in any relevent fields had been prepared to publish a similar statement, although I suspect many were secretly in agreement with him.
The reason all the experts kept quiet about their views was possibly due to the fear of being charged with heresy and losing their jobs, or worse. To be guilty of heresy was, in medieval times, a very serious matter. Copernicus himself was forced to retract his views on threat of ex-communication.
Later Galileo decided to stick his neck out and advocate the Copernican theory. Galileo was arrested and tried for heresy.
These days the heretics are called whistle blowers and they don't get burned at the stake, but they do get burned in other ways, and they often lose their jobs, their marriages and their health. It is a big price to pay.
So, is the fact that civil engineers, architects and demolitions experts are not publicly advocating the controlled demolition theory proof that they all agree with the official theory? I suspect not.
On the other hand, I put it to you: why have we not seen a peer reviewed rebuttal of the theory that WTC 7 was brought down by explosives?
Your analogy/analysis doesn’t really apply here because it does take into account members of these professions outside the US, esp. those in countries hostile to the US and/or Islamic counties (where explanations taking Muslims ‘off the hook’ would be welcome) or even countries friendly to the US but where emotions about 9/11 don’t run so high. I doubt even in Canada this would be an issue. Nor does it take into account the dozens of Americans with a wide variety of professions who publicly embrace (“unofficial”) 9/11 CTs.
There must be at least a million civil engineers worldwide*. Brazil’s Oscar Niemeyer is a national hero and an arch-Communist, he hates the US and continues to be a “think outside the box” architect well into his 90s, but he didn’t say anything, why not? What about architects and engineers from Muslim countries where IIRC about 80 % of the population believes 9/11 was an “inside job” or other countries hostile to the US? What about Cuban, Chinese and French experts. Surprisingly not one of them said anything. Saying the towers were demolished would not lead to them being ostracized, I would imagine quite the opposite.
Even in the US the supposed threat of ostracism or job loss has not stopped scientists and academics from publicly stating their controversial views publicly in groups like “SPINE” and “Academics for 9/11 Truth” etc. What about the various webmasters and authors of books alleging conspiracy, have any of them been ‘burned’? What ill effects have Griffith and Rupert suffered other than making small fortunes peddling conspiracies? I am sure some one will want to mention the case of that guy from UL who got fired, but IIRC he got bounced for using UL letterhead and if he had expressed his views as a private individual he probably would still be employed. As for job security how many of these professionals are public servants (who can’t be fired for expressing their views) or tenured college professors or retired?
This rationalization sells civil engineers and architects short. Various physicists, electrical engineers and other scientists, economists, computer scientists, MDs are members of the “9/11 truth” movement. No to mention that the history of science is full brave souls who weren’t afraid of scorn and put forth theories that were greatly at odds with accepted beliefs. Many it turn out were wrong and are now “footnotes” but others like Galileo, Copernicus, Darwin, Einstein, Freud etc “rewrote the science books”. There are many less famous examples: the winners of this year’s Nobel Prize for Medicine disagreed with prevailing opinion about the causes of ulcers, there are medical researchers who don’t believe that HIV causes AIDS, they are pariahs in the research community but they persist. Recently astronomers, physical anthropologists an undoubtedly scientist in other fields have gone against prevailing opinion.
Why should civil engineers and architects be any different? Frank Lloyd Wright, I.M. Pei, van der Rohe, Le Corbusier, Niemeyer, those responsible for the WTC, Ingall's Building, Home Insurance Building etc. etc. were not afraid to break norms.There was a civil engineer who publicly backed “Creationism” and Arthur Butz a professor of Electrical Engineering at Northwestern is a leading Holocaust denier. Although these positions have nothing to do with engineering I'm sure this doesn’t make them very popular with their colleagues. Butz will never be invited to address the IEEE [Institute of Electrical & Electronics Engineers].
The ASCE (Am. Soc. Of Civil Engineers) has “over 137,500 members”* the AIA (Am. Inst. of Arch.) has “more than 75,000”** members that gives a total of over 212,000. Are all of them so “blind“ that none of them perceive what CTs claim are violations of basic laws of physics obvious to anyone or don’t have the courage to come forward? Hard to believe. If there was some thing wrong with the “collapse theory” a it least a few at the very least should have said something. If they based their contrary views there is no reason to believe they would ostracized at all let alone to the extent CTs think.
The Copernicus analogy does not hold. In his day as you freely admit the consequences of heresy were extremely severe, as I have shown above the consequences of speaking out should not be a factor. In his day there were not any layman said or believed the Sun was the center of the “solar” system, today there are thousands if not millions of people who believed the towers were brought down with explosives. In his day ’science’ and ‘religion’ were inexorably tied and the “scientific method” was not used, indeed many date the beginning of the Scientific Revolution to the publication of Copernicus’ works ****, that the Earth was at the center of the Universe was taken as a matter of faith. To be fair to the geoscientists in Copernicus’ day we had far less info about our Universe than we did a few decades later compare this to the collapses of the WTC towers one of the most studied structural failures of all time.
If the excepted explanation of the collapses of the Towers so violates scientific principles as many 9/11 conspiracists believe there is no logical explanation why no relevant experts from anywhere in the World would not come forward publicly. The fact that more than four years later none have this leads to only one inevitable conclusion, the Towers collapsed due to the impact damage caused by large jets crashing into them at high speed and the resultant fires.
Did Bush plan 9/11? I wouldn’t put it past the SOB but think it highly unlikely. Did he know about it but do nothing or did he intentionally “provoke” Muslim extremists? Possibly but the evidence in support of such theories is not very convincing. Was he negligently disinterested in the threat of terrorism before 9/11? I would say definitely so, but these questions are outside the scope of this thread
* If there are over 212,000 just in the US, the Worldwide total is easily over 1 million.
** http://www.asce.org/inside/profile.cfm
***http://aia.org/join_categories
**** http://www.anselm.edu/homepage/dbanach/timel.htm
I see I'm not the only one who sees the absurdity of this conspiracy theory. The amount of people that would have to be involved in this cover up would be massive! There are many common sense questions to be answered like why all the fireman aren't getting together and demanding the union investigate this on their own. Over 300 fireman died that day and no one is demanding heads literally roll?
Bush is undoubtedly guilty of negligent homicide but that's not the worse crime hes committed. He lied us into war in a conspiracy which becomes more clear everyday as more and more high level officials and memos come out pointing in that direction. You would think conspiracy theorist who are proud enough to join a conspiracy forum would attack the one conspiracy there is ample evidence for. But I guess this isn't about holding Bush accountable. This is about who can invent the craziest fair tale and convince the most people of it.
They help Rove every day they convince some fool to follow in their footsteps.
The company that built the park was Turner Construction of Dallas TX they had the 38floor of the North tower. They contributed $100.000 to GWB 2000 Election campain.
That's a hell of a way for Bush to say Thanks.
What's the tie in to Enron stock and 9/11?
One wouldn't expect a significant relationship as 9/11 woudn't be expected to have a big impact on the California electricity market.
Sounds like "piling on".
It is made to sound bad when nothing suspicious is actually involved.
Arthur
You should be aware of the New Civil Engineer article published 6th October 2005
You should be aware of the New Civil Engineer article published 6th October 2005
The article below is copied directly from ‘New Civil Engineer’ (NCE) magazine, which is a magazine for construction professionals & members of the UK Institution of Civil Engineers (established 1818), (www.ice.org.uk). Publication date 6th October 2005. (Magazine website www.nceplus.co.uk)
WTC Investigators Resist Call for Collapse Visualisation
World Trade Center disaster investigators are refusing to show computer visualisations of the collapse of the Twin Towers despite calls from leading structural and fire engineers, NCE has learned.
Visualisations of collapse mechanisms are routinely used to validate the type of finite element analysis model used by the investigators.
The collapse mechanism and the role played by the hat truss at the top of the tower has been the focus of debate since the US National Institute of Standards & Technology (NIST) published its findings (NCE 22 September 2005).
NIST showed detailed computer generated visualisations of both the plane impacts and the development of fires within WTC1 and WTC2 at a recent conference at its Gaithersburg HQ. But the actual collapse mechanisms of the towers were not shown as visualisations.
University of Manchester (UK) professor of structural engineering Colin Bailey said there was a lot to be gained from visualising the structural response. “NIST should really show the visualisations, otherwise the opportunity to correlate them back to the video evidence and identify any errors in the modelling will be lost,” he said.
University of Sheffield professor Roger Plank added that visualisations of the collapses of the towers “would be a very powerful tool to promote the design code changes recommended by NIST.”
NIST told NCE this week that it did not believe there is much value in visualising quasi-static processes such as thermal response and load redistribution up to the point of global collapse initiation and has chosen not to develop such visualisations.
But it said it would ‘consider’ developing visualisations of its global structural collapse model, although its contract with the finite element analysis subcontractor was now terminated.
A leading US structural engineer said NIST had obviously devoted enormous resources to the development of the impact and fire models. “By comparison the global structural model is not as sophisticated,” he said.
“The software used has been pushed to new limits, and there have been a lot of simplifications, extrapolations and judgement calls. This doesn’t mean NIST has got it wrong in principle, but it does mean it would be hard to produce a definitive visualisation from the analysis so far.”
Also, whilst on the subject of peer reviews, here are some quotes from Professor Glen Corbett, Assistant Professor of Fire Science, John Jay College of Criminal Justice, at the House of Representatives, United States Congress hearing - “The Investigation of the World Trade Center Collapse: Findings, Recommendations, and Next Steps” on October 26, 2005:
The investigation has taken much longer than anticipated, including the fact that the World Trade Center (building) 7 investigation will likely not be completed next summer.
Overall, I have been disappointed by the lack of aggressiveness that has characterized not only the World Trade Center investigation but the Rhode Island Station Nightclub investigation as well. Instead of a “gumshoe” inquiry that left no stone unturned, I believe the investigations were treated more like research projects in which they waited for information to flow to them. In both investigations, they were reluctant to use the subpoena power given to them under the NCST Act. To some extent, the lack of assertiveness was the likely the result of the legal opinions given to NIST by staff attorneys.
Just to reiterate that last quote, the scientific investigations were steered by legal opinions!!!
What does that tell you???
Read the testimony for yourself at http://www.house.gov/science/hearings/full...ony%20FINAL.pdf
You should be aware of the New Civil Engineer article published 6th October 2005
You should be aware of the New Civil Engineer article published 6th October 2005
The article below is copied directly from ‘New Civil Engineer’ (NCE) magazine, which is a magazine for construction professionals & members of the UK Institution of Civil Engineers (established 1818), (www.ice.org.uk). Publication date 6th October 2005. (Magazine website www.nceplus.co.uk)
WTC Investigators Resist Call for Collapse Visualisation
World Trade Center disaster investigators are refusing to show computer visualisations of the collapse of the Twin Towers despite calls from leading structural and fire engineers, NCE has learned.
Visualisations of collapse mechanisms are routinely used to validate the type of finite element analysis model used by the investigators.
The collapse mechanism and the role played by the hat truss at the top of the tower has been the focus of debate since the US National Institute of Standards & Technology (NIST) published its findings (NCE 22 September 2005).
NIST showed detailed computer generated visualisations of both the plane impacts and the development of fires within WTC1 and WTC2 at a recent conference at its Gaithersburg HQ. But the actual collapse mechanisms of the towers were not shown as visualisations.
University of Manchester (UK) professor of structural engineering Colin Bailey said there was a lot to be gained from visualising the structural response. “NIST should really show the visualisations, otherwise the opportunity to correlate them back to the video evidence and identify any errors in the modelling will be lost,” he said.
University of Sheffield professor Roger Plank added that visualisations of the collapses of the towers “would be a very powerful tool to promote the design code changes recommended by NIST.”
NIST told NCE this week that it did not believe there is much value in visualising quasi-static processes such as thermal response and load redistribution up to the point of global collapse initiation and has chosen not to develop such visualisations.
But it said it would ‘consider’ developing visualisations of its global structural collapse model, although its contract with the finite element analysis subcontractor was now terminated.
A leading US structural engineer said NIST had obviously devoted enormous resources to the development of the impact and fire models. “By comparison the global structural model is not as sophisticated,” he said.
“The software used has been pushed to new limits, and there have been a lot of simplifications, extrapolations and judgement calls. This doesn’t mean NIST has got it wrong in principle, but it does mean it would be hard to produce a definitive visualisation from the analysis so far.”
Also, whilst on the subject of peer reviews, here are some quotes from Professor Glen Corbett, Assistant Professor of Fire Science, John Jay College of Criminal Justice, at the House of Representatives, United States Congress hearing - “The Investigation of the World Trade Center Collapse: Findings, Recommendations, and Next Steps” on October 26, 2005:
The investigation has taken much longer than anticipated, including the fact that the World Trade Center (building) 7 investigation will likely not be completed next summer.
Overall, I have been disappointed by the lack of aggressiveness that has characterized not only the World Trade Center investigation but the Rhode Island Station Nightclub investigation as well. Instead of a “gumshoe” inquiry that left no stone unturned, I believe the investigations were treated more like research projects in which they waited for information to flow to them. In both investigations, they were reluctant to use the subpoena power given to them under the NCST Act. To some extent, the lack of assertiveness was the likely the result of the legal opinions given to NIST by staff attorneys.
Just to reiterate that last quote, the scientific investigations were steered by legal opinions!!!
What does that tell you???
Read the testimony for yourself at http://www.house.gov/science/hearings/full...ony%20FINAL.pdf
"would be a very powerful tool to promote the design code changes recommended by NIST.”
Nothing in this article suggest they want this for any other reason than for design codes. It doesn't say they want to make sure the building fell by fire and not explosive device.
????
Read the quotes or better still, the full testimony by Prof Glen Corbett.
You can detect that he is not happy with the processes or the extent of findings of the official NIST investigation/ & Prof Corbett is NOT a skeptic/promoter of any alternatives to the 'Official Theory' at all!!! THAT'S THE POINT!!
The NIST investigation (which incidentally was only instigated after public request/demand) had the (public) remit to investigate more than updates to frickin building codes!!
On Feb 13 1975 there was a fire in the north tower that burned much hoter than the fire on 911. The fire was bloweing out the windows on six floors and 30 firemen were taken to the hospital for heat and smoke exaustion. There was no ventilation and no sprinkler system and the fire went to 3 alarms. There was a calll for an investiagtion on why the buildings were not to code.
So the fires could not have resulted in the collapse.
If JPF4 Fuel is simular to kerosene then why are'nt there more kerosene heater fires in private home even more why are'nt there more fires because of the plastic coverins around many of the makes on kerosene heaters?
Strength and Honor
Sentinel
Can you name any: ______________ who after studying the evidence believe explosives were used to bring down the towers? Not just in the US any where in the World. I far as I know none have done so publicly
A] civil engineers,
B] licensed architects,
C] construction contractors or
D] demolition experts*,
Len
* In the days following 9/11 a Chinese civil engineer and an American mining engineer/explosives expert said after seeing video of the collapses that they looked like controlled demo. The American retracted his assessment after studying the evidence, the Chinese engineer has been silent on the subject ever since.
LenBrazil,
Have you ever heard of a guy by the name of Nicholas Copernicus? He wrote this treatise a few hundred years ago, suggesting that the earth revolves around the Sun. Up till that time none of the "experts" in any relevent fields had been prepared to publish a similar statement, although I suspect many were secretly in agreement with him.
The reason all the experts kept quiet about their views was possibly due to the fear of being charged with heresy and losing their jobs, or worse. To be guilty of heresy was, in medieval times, a very serious matter. Copernicus himself was forced to retract his views on threat of ex-communication.
Later Galileo decided to stick his neck out and advocate the Copernican theory. Galileo was arrested and tried for heresy.
These days the heretics are called whistle blowers and they don't get burned at the stake, but they do get burned in other ways, and they often lose their jobs, their marriages and their health. It is a big price to pay.
So, is the fact that civil engineers, architects and demolitions experts are not publicly advocating the controlled demolition theory proof that they all agree with the official theory? I suspect not.
On the other hand, I put it to you: why have we not seen a peer reviewed rebuttal of the theory that WTC 7 was brought down by explosives?
Your analogy/analysis doesn’t really apply here because it does take into account members of these professions outside the US, esp. those in countries hostile to the US and/or Islamic counties (where explanations taking Muslims ‘off the hook’ would be welcome) or even countries friendly to the US but where emotions about 9/11 don’t run so high. I doubt even in Canada this would be an issue. Nor does it take into account the dozens of Americans with a wide variety of professions who publicly embrace (“unofficial”) 9/11 CTs.
There must be at least a million civil engineers worldwide*. Brazil’s Oscar Niemeyer is a national hero and an arch-Communist, he hates the US and continues to be a “think outside the box” architect well into his 90s, but he didn’t say anything, why not? What about architects and engineers from Muslim countries where IIRC about 80 % of the population believes 9/11 was an “inside job” or other countries hostile to the US? What about Cuban, Chinese and French experts. Surprisingly not one of them said anything. Saying the towers were demolished would not lead to them being ostracized, I would imagine quite the opposite.
Even in the US the supposed threat of ostracism or job loss has not stopped scientists and academics from publicly stating their controversial views publicly in groups like “SPINE” and “Academics for 9/11 Truth” etc. What about the various webmasters and authors of books alleging conspiracy, have any of them been ‘burned’? What ill effects have Griffith and Rupert suffered other than making small fortunes peddling conspiracies? I am sure some one will want to mention the case of that guy from UL who got fired, but IIRC he got bounced for using UL letterhead and if he had expressed his views as a private individual he probably would still be employed. As for job security how many of these professionals are public servants (who can’t be fired for expressing their views) or tenured college professors or retired?
This rationalization sells civil engineers and architects short. Various physicists, electrical engineers and other scientists, economists, computer scientists, MDs are members of the “9/11 truth” movement. No to mention that the history of science is full brave souls who weren’t afraid of scorn and put forth theories that were greatly at odds with accepted beliefs. Many it turn out were wrong and are now “footnotes” but others like Galileo, Copernicus, Darwin, Einstein, Freud etc “rewrote the science books”. There are many less famous examples: the winners of this year’s Nobel Prize for Medicine disagreed with prevailing opinion about the causes of ulcers, there are medical researchers who don’t believe that HIV causes AIDS, they are pariahs in the research community but they persist. Recently astronomers, physical anthropologists an undoubtedly scientist in other fields have gone against prevailing opinion.
Why should civil engineers and architects be any different? Frank Lloyd Wright, I.M. Pei, van der Rohe, Le Corbusier, Niemeyer, those responsible for the WTC, Ingall's Building, Home Insurance Building etc. etc. were not afraid to break norms.There was a civil engineer who publicly backed “Creationism” and Arthur Butz a professor of Electrical Engineering at Northwestern is a leading Holocaust denier. Although these positions have nothing to do with engineering I'm sure this doesn’t make them very popular with their colleagues. Butz will never be invited to address the IEEE [Institute of Electrical & Electronics Engineers].
The ASCE (Am. Soc. Of Civil Engineers) has “over 137,500 members”* the AIA (Am. Inst. of Arch.) has “more than 75,000”** members that gives a total of over 212,000. Are all of them so “blind“ that none of them perceive what CTs claim are violations of basic laws of physics obvious to anyone or don’t have the courage to come forward? Hard to believe. If there was some thing wrong with the “collapse theory” a it least a few at the very least should have said something. If they based their contrary views there is no reason to believe they would ostracized at all let alone to the extent CTs think.
The Copernicus analogy does not hold. In his day as you freely admit the consequences of heresy were extremely severe, as I have shown above the consequences of speaking out should not be a factor. In his day there were not any layman said or believed the Sun was the center of the “solar” system, today there are thousands if not millions of people who believed the towers were brought down with explosives. In his day ’science’ and ‘religion’ were inexorably tied and the “scientific method” was not used, indeed many date the beginning of the Scientific Revolution to the publication of Copernicus’ works ****, that the Earth was at the center of the Universe was taken as a matter of faith. To be fair to the geoscientists in Copernicus’ day we had far less info about our Universe than we did a few decades later compare this to the collapses of the WTC towers one of the most studied structural failures of all time.
If the excepted explanation of the collapses of the Towers so violates scientific principles as many 9/11 conspiracists believe there is no logical explanation why no relevant experts from anywhere in the World would not come forward publicly. The fact that more than four years later none have this leads to only one inevitable conclusion, the Towers collapsed due to the impact damage caused by large jets crashing into them at high speed and the resultant fires.
Did Bush plan 9/11? I wouldn’t put it past the SOB but think it highly unlikely. Did he know about it but do nothing or did he intentionally “provoke” Muslim extremists? Possibly but the evidence in support of such theories is not very convincing. Was he negligently disinterested in the threat of terrorism before 9/11? I would say definitely so, but these questions are outside the scope of this thread
* If there are over 212,000 just in the US, the Worldwide total is easily over 1 million.
** http://www.asce.org/inside/profile.cfm
***http://aia.org/join_categories
**** http://www.anselm.edu/homepage/dbanach/timel.htm
I see I'm not the only one who sees the absurdity of this conspiracy theory. The amount of people that would have to be involved in this cover up would be massive! There are many common sense questions to be answered like why all the fireman aren't getting together and demanding the union investigate this on their own. Over 300 fireman died that day and no one is demanding heads literally roll?
Bush is undoubtedly guilty of negligent homicide but that's not the worse crime hes committed. He lied us into war in a conspiracy which becomes more clear everyday as more and more high level officials and memos come out pointing in that direction. You would think conspiracy theorist who are proud enough to join a conspiracy forum would attack the one conspiracy there is ample evidence for. But I guess this isn't about holding Bush accountable. This is about who can invent the craziest fair tale and convince the most people of it.
They help Rove every day they convince some fool to follow in their footsteps.
Oh,
I'm sorry, I forgot to mention that the natural gas supplier to the KEYSPAN Energy corporation is....
ENRON
Five days before 9-11 Mr Jeff Skilling tried to dump 200.000 shares of stock.
KEYSPAN Energy got a minor league baseball team the same year their called the brooklyn Cyclones and they play at KEYSPAN park in Coney Island. Their first game was played June 25 2001.
The company that built the park was Turner Construction of Dallas TX they had the 38floor of the North tower. They contributed $100.000 to GWB 2000 Election campain.
Strength and Honor
Paul Isaac Jr
Rsqsrvs@yahoo.com
I'm sorry, I forgot to mention that the natural gas supplier to the KEYSPAN Energy corporation is....
ENRON
Five days before 9-11 Mr Jeff Skilling tried to dump 200.000 shares of stock.
KEYSPAN Energy got a minor league baseball team the same year their called the brooklyn Cyclones and they play at KEYSPAN park in Coney Island. Their first game was played June 25 2001.
The company that built the park was Turner Construction of Dallas TX they had the 38floor of the North tower. They contributed $100.000 to GWB 2000 Election campain.
Strength and Honor
Paul Isaac Jr
Rsqsrvs@yahoo.com
Sorry again,
The Brooklyn Cyclones are the minor leagur team for the NY Mets.
Remember where the first "tribute to the heros" was celebrated just 11 days after the attacks? Shea Stadium
Heres to holding those responble accountable.
Strength and Honor
Paul Isaac Jr
Rsqsrvs@yahoo.com
The Brooklyn Cyclones are the minor leagur team for the NY Mets.
Remember where the first "tribute to the heros" was celebrated just 11 days after the attacks? Shea Stadium
Heres to holding those responble accountable.
Strength and Honor
Paul Isaac Jr
Rsqsrvs@yahoo.com
QUOTE (Sentinel+Feb 6 2006, 04:50 PM)
The company that built the park was Turner Construction of Dallas TX they had the 38floor of the North tower. They contributed $100.000 to GWB 2000 Election campain.
That's a hell of a way for Bush to say Thanks.
What's the tie in to Enron stock and 9/11?
One wouldn't expect a significant relationship as 9/11 woudn't be expected to have a big impact on the California electricity market.
Sounds like "piling on".
It is made to sound bad when nothing suspicious is actually involved.
Arthur
Its called linking Nazi to Nazis.
It seems that Turner construction was bought out in 98 by a german consortium with the first four letter of HOCH. This company was incharge of Hitlers "Air Transport Logistics Systems"
Get it?
Strength and honor
Paul Isaac Jr
Rsqsrvs@yahoo.com
It seems that Turner construction was bought out in 98 by a german consortium with the first four letter of HOCH. This company was incharge of Hitlers "Air Transport Logistics Systems"
Get it?
Strength and honor
Paul Isaac Jr
Rsqsrvs@yahoo.com
Before the Governator was elected the Californias legal system was going to file crimminal charges against ENRON for the ilegal rolling brown outs but then there was a run off and the governator changed the laws.
Strength and Honor
Sentinel
Strength and Honor
Sentinel
QUOTE (frater plecticus+Feb 6 2006, 06:04 PM)
adoucette Feb 6 2006, 05:40 PM
What exactly is my position, then Arthur ?
Good last post, lenbrazil.
I have worked for 5 years as a civil engineer. I have many, many contacts in the industry (mainly in England), i would say that approx 50% of them believe that explosives were used during the collapse of the towers on 9-11. the big problem, is that
many, many, people are afraid to speak out.
This doesn't surprise me at all, although this still doesn't explain the silence of civil engineers in Moslem countries not under the US's thumb, like Iran and Indonesia. I will return to these unexpected cases in a minute, but first....
As I reported elsewhere (I think on this thread, but I honestly don't remember 100%) , Bev Harris had to go outside the United States to find a "scientist" with the requisite statistical background WHO WOULD PUBLICLY PUT THEIR NAME TO A STUDY SHOWING VOTE FRAUD IN SOME US VOTING SYSTEMS USED IN 2004
It was not the case that there were no such scientists who saw the fraud. We know that because some such US scientists told Bev Harris privately that that was the case. But they were afraid to publicly proclaim the fact, out of fear of repurcussion.
I fully expect that the "popes" who frequent this forum, as well as the "skeptics" at AH, will completely fail to see the relevance of this analogy. In my view, though, the relevance couldn't be more obvious. Note, too, that the worst case consequences of shedding light on the vote fraud issue for the perpetrators cannot be anywhere as severe as the worst case consequences of being exposed in the 911 mass murder. Furthermore, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that if the WTC buildings were demolished via some type of controlled CD, it almost must have been an inside job, and in light of all the other aspects of the attacks that point to at least LIHOP and/or a coverup, again it doesn't take a genius to figure out that declaring the WTC buildings to have been deliberately imploded amounts to pointing an accusatory finger at portions of the US government
Of course, being realistic about things, this is all the more reason to pursue the considered opions of civil engineers who have studied the issue in Europe, as well as the entire world, including the Muslim world. If activists do their job, this will indeed be the case.
Also, in a similar vein, there was a caller to the Mike Malloy radio show just recently who was actively serving in the US Air Force, who said that form Joint Chief of Staffs Myers was guilty in the 911 attacks, but he couldn't go into detail because "he had a family to think about"
=================
The lack of civil engineers (that we know of) from countries like Iran and Indonesia going on record is not well explained, IMO, by claiming fear of retribution. In fact, I would expect the opposite to be the case. Somebody should indeed proactively look into this, and I'm particularly amazed that the Iranian government would not pursue such an effort as a political expedient, even to the point of making up stuff along this line.
Part of the answer, though, may be grokked by considering my experiences while working in China. I had worked in the capital city of Shangdong Province, called Jinan, which was a city of 6 million people. There was exactly 1 Kentucky Fried Chicken in this city, and no McDonald's (as late a Jan. 2000 - not to fear, I hear that there is one there now
)
Unlike Beijing, in Jinan it was difficult to find good English speakers, and furthermore it was impossible not only to find a McDonald's, but also even an Indian restaurant. "Eating out" in the sense of going to a "special" restaurant usually amounted to eating Chinese food from another part of China.
In other words, they were somewhat provincial, and not really that interested in life in the US, or US politics (as far as I could tell - I never did pick up Chinese)
I don't suppose that Iranians are all that interested in the US, either, except to avoid getting bombed or, worse, nuked by the US.
Frater, would do a "rigorous", if small, poll of civil engineers in your acquaintance, where you guarantee them anonymity, and ask them "If you did not fear retribution at all, would you be willing to go on record as saying that you believe that WTC 1,2, & 7 were deliberately demolished?" If you do this, you should also ask them to rate their knowledge of the building specifics on a scale of 1 to 10.
QUOTE
I take it that is because the Physics doesn't support your position.
What exactly is my position, then Arthur ?
Good last post, lenbrazil.
I have worked for 5 years as a civil engineer. I have many, many contacts in the industry (mainly in England), i would say that approx 50% of them believe that explosives were used during the collapse of the towers on 9-11. the big problem, is that
many, many, people are afraid to speak out.
This doesn't surprise me at all, although this still doesn't explain the silence of civil engineers in Moslem countries not under the US's thumb, like Iran and Indonesia. I will return to these unexpected cases in a minute, but first....
As I reported elsewhere (I think on this thread, but I honestly don't remember 100%) , Bev Harris had to go outside the United States to find a "scientist" with the requisite statistical background WHO WOULD PUBLICLY PUT THEIR NAME TO A STUDY SHOWING VOTE FRAUD IN SOME US VOTING SYSTEMS USED IN 2004
It was not the case that there were no such scientists who saw the fraud. We know that because some such US scientists told Bev Harris privately that that was the case. But they were afraid to publicly proclaim the fact, out of fear of repurcussion.
I fully expect that the "popes" who frequent this forum, as well as the "skeptics" at AH, will completely fail to see the relevance of this analogy. In my view, though, the relevance couldn't be more obvious. Note, too, that the worst case consequences of shedding light on the vote fraud issue for the perpetrators cannot be anywhere as severe as the worst case consequences of being exposed in the 911 mass murder. Furthermore, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that if the WTC buildings were demolished via some type of controlled CD, it almost must have been an inside job, and in light of all the other aspects of the attacks that point to at least LIHOP and/or a coverup, again it doesn't take a genius to figure out that declaring the WTC buildings to have been deliberately imploded amounts to pointing an accusatory finger at portions of the US government
Of course, being realistic about things, this is all the more reason to pursue the considered opions of civil engineers who have studied the issue in Europe, as well as the entire world, including the Muslim world. If activists do their job, this will indeed be the case.
Also, in a similar vein, there was a caller to the Mike Malloy radio show just recently who was actively serving in the US Air Force, who said that form Joint Chief of Staffs Myers was guilty in the 911 attacks, but he couldn't go into detail because "he had a family to think about"
=================
The lack of civil engineers (that we know of) from countries like Iran and Indonesia going on record is not well explained, IMO, by claiming fear of retribution. In fact, I would expect the opposite to be the case. Somebody should indeed proactively look into this, and I'm particularly amazed that the Iranian government would not pursue such an effort as a political expedient, even to the point of making up stuff along this line.
Part of the answer, though, may be grokked by considering my experiences while working in China. I had worked in the capital city of Shangdong Province, called Jinan, which was a city of 6 million people. There was exactly 1 Kentucky Fried Chicken in this city, and no McDonald's (as late a Jan. 2000 - not to fear, I hear that there is one there now
Unlike Beijing, in Jinan it was difficult to find good English speakers, and furthermore it was impossible not only to find a McDonald's, but also even an Indian restaurant. "Eating out" in the sense of going to a "special" restaurant usually amounted to eating Chinese food from another part of China.
In other words, they were somewhat provincial, and not really that interested in life in the US, or US politics (as far as I could tell - I never did pick up Chinese)
I don't suppose that Iranians are all that interested in the US, either, except to avoid getting bombed or, worse, nuked by the US.
Frater, would do a "rigorous", if small, poll of civil engineers in your acquaintance, where you guarantee them anonymity, and ask them "If you did not fear retribution at all, would you be willing to go on record as saying that you believe that WTC 1,2, & 7 were deliberately demolished?" If you do this, you should also ask them to rate their knowledge of the building specifics on a scale of 1 to 10.
QUOTE
You mean like the close inspection and analysis that NIST performed and documented and for which there has been no PEER REVIEWED repudiation of?
Arthur
Arthur
You should be aware of the New Civil Engineer article published 6th October 2005
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| You mean like the close inspection and analysis that NIST performed and documented and for which there has been no PEER REVIEWED repudiation of? Arthur |
You should be aware of the New Civil Engineer article published 6th October 2005
The article below is copied directly from ‘New Civil Engineer’ (NCE) magazine, which is a magazine for construction professionals & members of the UK Institution of Civil Engineers (established 1818), (www.ice.org.uk). Publication date 6th October 2005. (Magazine website www.nceplus.co.uk)
WTC Investigators Resist Call for Collapse Visualisation
World Trade Center disaster investigators are refusing to show computer visualisations of the collapse of the Twin Towers despite calls from leading structural and fire engineers, NCE has learned.
Visualisations of collapse mechanisms are routinely used to validate the type of finite element analysis model used by the investigators.
The collapse mechanism and the role played by the hat truss at the top of the tower has been the focus of debate since the US National Institute of Standards & Technology (NIST) published its findings (NCE 22 September 2005).
NIST showed detailed computer generated visualisations of both the plane impacts and the development of fires within WTC1 and WTC2 at a recent conference at its Gaithersburg HQ. But the actual collapse mechanisms of the towers were not shown as visualisations.
University of Manchester (UK) professor of structural engineering Colin Bailey said there was a lot to be gained from visualising the structural response. “NIST should really show the visualisations, otherwise the opportunity to correlate them back to the video evidence and identify any errors in the modelling will be lost,” he said.
University of Sheffield professor Roger Plank added that visualisations of the collapses of the towers “would be a very powerful tool to promote the design code changes recommended by NIST.”
NIST told NCE this week that it did not believe there is much value in visualising quasi-static processes such as thermal response and load redistribution up to the point of global collapse initiation and has chosen not to develop such visualisations.
But it said it would ‘consider’ developing visualisations of its global structural collapse model, although its contract with the finite element analysis subcontractor was now terminated.
A leading US structural engineer said NIST had obviously devoted enormous resources to the development of the impact and fire models. “By comparison the global structural model is not as sophisticated,” he said.
“The software used has been pushed to new limits, and there have been a lot of simplifications, extrapolations and judgement calls. This doesn’t mean NIST has got it wrong in principle, but it does mean it would be hard to produce a definitive visualisation from the analysis so far.”
Also, whilst on the subject of peer reviews, here are some quotes from Professor Glen Corbett, Assistant Professor of Fire Science, John Jay College of Criminal Justice, at the House of Representatives, United States Congress hearing - “The Investigation of the World Trade Center Collapse: Findings, Recommendations, and Next Steps” on October 26, 2005:
QUOTE
Although NIST has done quit a bit of work and has amassed many thousands of pages of useful research, I feel that the investigation has fallen far short of what is needed.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Although NIST has done quit a bit of work and has amassed many thousands of pages of useful research, I feel that the investigation has fallen far short of what is needed. |
The investigation has taken much longer than anticipated, including the fact that the World Trade Center (building) 7 investigation will likely not be completed next summer.
QUOTE
During the course of the WTC investigation, I have had serious concerns about some of the findings and conclusions that NIST has drawn. Other individuals, including some people on the federal advisory committee, have also had concerns.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| During the course of the WTC investigation, I have had serious concerns about some of the findings and conclusions that NIST has drawn. Other individuals, including some people on the federal advisory committee, have also had concerns. |
Overall, I have been disappointed by the lack of aggressiveness that has characterized not only the World Trade Center investigation but the Rhode Island Station Nightclub investigation as well. Instead of a “gumshoe” inquiry that left no stone unturned, I believe the investigations were treated more like research projects in which they waited for information to flow to them. In both investigations, they were reluctant to use the subpoena power given to them under the NCST Act. To some extent, the lack of assertiveness was the likely the result of the legal opinions given to NIST by staff attorneys.
Just to reiterate that last quote, the scientific investigations were steered by legal opinions!!!
What does that tell you???
Read the testimony for yourself at http://www.house.gov/science/hearings/full...ony%20FINAL.pdf
The reason this little bitch sentinal sounds like a CTer is because that's exactly what she is. I asked her to prove who she was and she tried to play me. Go ahead ask her to prove who she is and watch how she tried to play offened. Fu<k dat,
If you're paul prove it or don't waste our time bitch.
Try truth and honesty
If you're paul prove it or don't waste our time bitch.
Try truth and honesty
QUOTE (Sinclair+Feb 6 2006, 10:53 PM)
QUOTE
You mean like the close inspection and analysis that NIST performed and documented and for which there has been no PEER REVIEWED repudiation of?
Arthur
Arthur
You should be aware of the New Civil Engineer article published 6th October 2005
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| You mean like the close inspection and analysis that NIST performed and documented and for which there has been no PEER REVIEWED repudiation of? Arthur |
You should be aware of the New Civil Engineer article published 6th October 2005
The article below is copied directly from ‘New Civil Engineer’ (NCE) magazine, which is a magazine for construction professionals & members of the UK Institution of Civil Engineers (established 1818), (www.ice.org.uk). Publication date 6th October 2005. (Magazine website www.nceplus.co.uk)
WTC Investigators Resist Call for Collapse Visualisation
World Trade Center disaster investigators are refusing to show computer visualisations of the collapse of the Twin Towers despite calls from leading structural and fire engineers, NCE has learned.
Visualisations of collapse mechanisms are routinely used to validate the type of finite element analysis model used by the investigators.
The collapse mechanism and the role played by the hat truss at the top of the tower has been the focus of debate since the US National Institute of Standards & Technology (NIST) published its findings (NCE 22 September 2005).
NIST showed detailed computer generated visualisations of both the plane impacts and the development of fires within WTC1 and WTC2 at a recent conference at its Gaithersburg HQ. But the actual collapse mechanisms of the towers were not shown as visualisations.
University of Manchester (UK) professor of structural engineering Colin Bailey said there was a lot to be gained from visualising the structural response. “NIST should really show the visualisations, otherwise the opportunity to correlate them back to the video evidence and identify any errors in the modelling will be lost,” he said.
University of Sheffield professor Roger Plank added that visualisations of the collapses of the towers “would be a very powerful tool to promote the design code changes recommended by NIST.”
NIST told NCE this week that it did not believe there is much value in visualising quasi-static processes such as thermal response and load redistribution up to the point of global collapse initiation and has chosen not to develop such visualisations.
But it said it would ‘consider’ developing visualisations of its global structural collapse model, although its contract with the finite element analysis subcontractor was now terminated.
A leading US structural engineer said NIST had obviously devoted enormous resources to the development of the impact and fire models. “By comparison the global structural model is not as sophisticated,” he said.
“The software used has been pushed to new limits, and there have been a lot of simplifications, extrapolations and judgement calls. This doesn’t mean NIST has got it wrong in principle, but it does mean it would be hard to produce a definitive visualisation from the analysis so far.”
Also, whilst on the subject of peer reviews, here are some quotes from Professor Glen Corbett, Assistant Professor of Fire Science, John Jay College of Criminal Justice, at the House of Representatives, United States Congress hearing - “The Investigation of the World Trade Center Collapse: Findings, Recommendations, and Next Steps” on October 26, 2005:
QUOTE
Although NIST has done quit a bit of work and has amassed many thousands of pages of useful research, I feel that the investigation has fallen far short of what is needed.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Although NIST has done quit a bit of work and has amassed many thousands of pages of useful research, I feel that the investigation has fallen far short of what is needed. |
The investigation has taken much longer than anticipated, including the fact that the World Trade Center (building) 7 investigation will likely not be completed next summer.
QUOTE
During the course of the WTC investigation, I have had serious concerns about some of the findings and conclusions that NIST has drawn. Other individuals, including some people on the federal advisory committee, have also had concerns.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| During the course of the WTC investigation, I have had serious concerns about some of the findings and conclusions that NIST has drawn. Other individuals, including some people on the federal advisory committee, have also had concerns. |
Overall, I have been disappointed by the lack of aggressiveness that has characterized not only the World Trade Center investigation but the Rhode Island Station Nightclub investigation as well. Instead of a “gumshoe” inquiry that left no stone unturned, I believe the investigations were treated more like research projects in which they waited for information to flow to them. In both investigations, they were reluctant to use the subpoena power given to them under the NCST Act. To some extent, the lack of assertiveness was the likely the result of the legal opinions given to NIST by staff attorneys.
Just to reiterate that last quote, the scientific investigations were steered by legal opinions!!!
What does that tell you???
Read the testimony for yourself at http://www.house.gov/science/hearings/full...ony%20FINAL.pdf
"would be a very powerful tool to promote the design code changes recommended by NIST.”
Nothing in this article suggest they want this for any other reason than for design codes. It doesn't say they want to make sure the building fell by fire and not explosive device.
To the jerkoff harrasing me on my E-mail,
Watch your *** step. For real son you don't know who you're *** with.
So take your wak *** and go home before you lose yourself.
You sound really stupid don't get it twisted.
Check yourself before you wreck yourself.
I know your IP and I will trakit and bust your ***.
Sentinel
Watch your *** step. For real son you don't know who you're *** with.
So take your wak *** and go home before you lose yourself.
You sound really stupid don't get it twisted.
Check yourself before you wreck yourself.
I know your IP and I will trakit and bust your ***.
Sentinel
I apologize to the board for my response to the idiot but it needed to be brought out into the open.
As for the idiot go read a wingtv article dweeb.
Sentinel
As for the idiot go read a wingtv article dweeb.
Sentinel
QUOTE (Sentinel+Feb 6 2006, 11:16 PM)
To the jerkoff harrasing me on my E-mail,
Watch your *** step. For real son you don't know who you're *** with.
So take your wak *** and go home before you lose yourself.
You sound really stupid don't get it twisted.
Check yourself before you wreck yourself.
I know your IP and I will trakit and bust your ***.
Sentinel
I'm so fu<king scard now. How will I ever get to sleep. Heh!
Please, you're nothing but a punk A$$ little bitch. You're proving you're not Paul Isaac now. Why the fu<k would paul Isaac show his a$$ when someone asks for proof. You would think the real paul would welcome proving who he is.
You have my IP? Come to my house then, I got some'um for ya son. BOYA!
Watch your *** step. For real son you don't know who you're *** with.
So take your wak *** and go home before you lose yourself.
You sound really stupid don't get it twisted.
Check yourself before you wreck yourself.
I know your IP and I will trakit and bust your ***.
Sentinel
I'm so fu<king scard now. How will I ever get to sleep. Heh!
Please, you're nothing but a punk A$$ little bitch. You're proving you're not Paul Isaac now. Why the fu<k would paul Isaac show his a$$ when someone asks for proof. You would think the real paul would welcome proving who he is.
You have my IP? Come to my house then, I got some'um for ya son. BOYA!
Some humor for the board,
The guy or whatever calls my E-mail telling me that maybe the Wingtv artckle is real and i'm just grinding an ax. Oh yeah, this is the proper way to check for creditials now.
OK, If you're from the city as you claim ask yourself this question: If there were someone standing infront of the NYPD( if you're from the city you know how they are) stating this crap the wrote being they don't have a clue how NY cops are, do you really think they would poses for pictures afterwards with someone who alledgedly stood there saying 911 was an inside job or do you think they would have kicked the living *** out of them? They were standing there the whole time. Do you think they would've tolerated a fireman in uniform stating that in front of them?
Or do you think the story is bullsh*t?
Answer only if you've got more than half a brain.
think about it now, this is NYC cops were talking about here.
Sentinel
The guy or whatever calls my E-mail telling me that maybe the Wingtv artckle is real and i'm just grinding an ax. Oh yeah, this is the proper way to check for creditials now.
OK, If you're from the city as you claim ask yourself this question: If there were someone standing infront of the NYPD( if you're from the city you know how they are) stating this crap the wrote being they don't have a clue how NY cops are, do you really think they would poses for pictures afterwards with someone who alledgedly stood there saying 911 was an inside job or do you think they would have kicked the living *** out of them? They were standing there the whole time. Do you think they would've tolerated a fireman in uniform stating that in front of them?
Or do you think the story is bullsh*t?
Answer only if you've got more than half a brain.
think about it now, this is NYC cops were talking about here.
Sentinel
QUOTE
Nothing in this article suggest they want this for any other reason than for design codes. It doesn't say they want to make sure the building fell by fire and not explosive device.
????
Read the quotes or better still, the full testimony by Prof Glen Corbett.
You can detect that he is not happy with the processes or the extent of findings of the official NIST investigation/ & Prof Corbett is NOT a skeptic/promoter of any alternatives to the 'Official Theory' at all!!! THAT'S THE POINT!!
The NIST investigation (which incidentally was only instigated after public request/demand) had the (public) remit to investigate more than updates to frickin building codes!!
Sentinel QUOTE
ditto
Metamars, in response to your question regarding my civil engineering colleagues, it's going to be a little difficult to make any sort of working model or hypothesis without the plans of the building (which seem to have been disappeared).
Looks like the tentacles of "Al-Qaeda" reach pretty far.....
QUOTE
Heres to holding those responsible accountable.
ditto
Metamars, in response to your question regarding my civil engineering colleagues, it's going to be a little difficult to make any sort of working model or hypothesis without the plans of the building (which seem to have been disappeared).
Looks like the tentacles of "Al-Qaeda" reach pretty far.....
On Feb 13 1975 there was a fire in the north tower that burned much hoter than the fire on 911. The fire was bloweing out the windows on six floors and 30 firemen were taken to the hospital for heat and smoke exaustion. There was no ventilation and no sprinkler system and the fire went to 3 alarms. There was a calll for an investiagtion on why the buildings were not to code.
So the fires could not have resulted in the collapse.
If JPF4 Fuel is simular to kerosene then why are'nt there more kerosene heater fires in private home even more why are'nt there more fires because of the plastic coverins around many of the makes on kerosene heaters?
Strength and Honor
Sentinel
QUOTE (Sentinel+Feb 6 2006, 11:36 PM)
Some humor for the board,
The guy or whatever calls my E-mail telling me that maybe the Wingtv artckle is real and i'm just grinding an ax. Oh yeah, this is the proper way to check for creditials now.
OK, If you're from the city as you claim ask yourself this question: If there were someone standing infront of the NYPD( if you're from the city you know how they are) stating this crap the wrote being they don't have a clue how NY cops are, do you really think they would poses for pictures afterwards with someone who alledgedly stood there saying 911 was an inside job or do you think they would have kicked the living *** out of them? They were standing there the whole time. Do you think they would've tolerated a fireman in uniform stating that in front of them?
Or do you think the story is bullsh*t?
Answer only if you've got more than half a brain.
think about it now, this is NYC cops were talking about here.
Sentinel
I just asked for proof of who you were after you said:
________________________
Goodafternoon
Why would you care. If you already have a negative
view of things why would proof of my identity make any
difference?
Strength and Honor
Paul
_________________________
Then I said:
"For all I know you could be a conspiracy theorist pretending to be Paul. If you aren't and want to be taken seriously then proving who you are would make a very big difference indeed. For all I know the wingtv post is real and you just have an axe to grind with them. If you are really from NY I'm sure you understand. I'm from NY and we don't just take peoples word for everything."
_________________________
So how the fu<K is that insulting.
You still haven't proven who you are. In fact all you do is repeat CT BS.
The guy or whatever calls my E-mail telling me that maybe the Wingtv artckle is real and i'm just grinding an ax. Oh yeah, this is the proper way to check for creditials now.
OK, If you're from the city as you claim ask yourself this question: If there were someone standing infront of the NYPD( if you're from the city you know how they are) stating this crap the wrote being they don't have a clue how NY cops are, do you really think they would poses for pictures afterwards with someone who alledgedly stood there saying 911 was an inside job or do you think they would have kicked the living *** out of them? They were standing there the whole time. Do you think they would've tolerated a fireman in uniform stating that in front of them?
Or do you think the story is bullsh*t?
Answer only if you've got more than half a brain.
think about it now, this is NYC cops were talking about here.
Sentinel
I just asked for proof of who you were after you said:
________________________
Goodafternoon
Why would you care. If you already have a negative
view of things why would proof of my identity make any
difference?
Strength and Honor
Paul
_________________________
Then I said:
"For all I know you could be a conspiracy theorist pretending to be Paul. If you aren't and want to be taken seriously then proving who you are would make a very big difference indeed. For all I know the wingtv post is real and you just have an axe to grind with them. If you are really from NY I'm sure you understand. I'm from NY and we don't just take peoples word for everything."
_________________________
So how the fu<K is that insulting.
You still haven't proven who you are. In fact all you do is repeat CT BS.
QUOTE (Sentinel+Feb 6 2006, 11:47 PM)
On Feb 13 1975 there was a fire in the north tower that burned much hoter than the fire on 911. The fire was bloweing out the windows on six floors and 30 firemen were taken to the hospital for heat and smoke exaustion. There was no ventilation and no sprinkler system and the fire went to 3 alarms. There was a calll for an investiagtion on why the buildings were not to code.
So the fires could not have resulted in the collapse.
If JPF4 Fuel is simular to kerosene then why are'nt there more kerosene heater fires in private home even more why are'nt there more fires because of the plastic coverins around many of the makes on kerosene heaters?
Strength and Honor
Sentinel
You have just proved you are nothing but another UFO/CT conspiracy freak, or another scam artist selling to the dumb clucks who buy your crap and pay up like good little idotic gullible sheep with more money for you fleece them out of than they have brains to think with.
Research into fires caused by improperly maintained or faulty home kerosene heaters will tell that you are bullsh*tting. By improperly maintained or faulty it means that the kerosene in the reservoir is made hot and the vapours allowed to mix with enough air before controlled burning off the 'wick' surfaces where it is designed to burn. So there WERE MANY such fires around the world before design changes made 'maintenance' and premature mixing/ignition a 'non issue'.
So in the best traditions of malicious and/or ignorant UFO/CT conspiracy monger, you lied your head off there.
And if the fires on Feb 13, 1975 on six floors were burning 'much hotter' like you say, despite the firemen's efforts, then WHAT were the fires 'burning'? Could it be all that OFICE FURNITURE, EQUIPMENT and the various OFFICE FUEL SUPPLIES on all those floors? If that's the case, why would not the 9/11 fires NOT 'burn' HOTTER considering there were NO firemen fighting it? And WHY would the addition of 150 tons of Aluminum and Kerosene NOT make them burn EVEN HOTTER than the Feb 13 fires which ONLY had the Office fuels to burn?
So you are STILL lying like a good little UFO/CT wanker.
Why didn't the Feb 13 fires not collapse the tower? Could it be that a plane didn't fly THROUGH it and REMOVE FIREPROOFING from critical structural members? Which then led to catastrophic failures in 9/11 fires? Unlike in the Feb 13 fires which did NOT occur because the fireproofing was INTACT and FRESSHER and less degraded with age as well as extreme vibratory and direct-impact dislodgement?
You lied about THAT to, didn't you?
That makes THREE STRIKES and you're out. you fraud and scam artist. Get out and stay out, you turd. Go sell you sh*t somewhere where people aren't too smart to see what you're selling. You and Foxx1957 should 'merge' your 'businesses' and advertise under a 'joint venture' in STUPIDITY and PERVERSE anti-social activities. Here's a suggested slogan for your new joint venture in lunacy, idiocy, gullibility lies and fraud:
SENTINEL-FOXXa957: Your place of choice for the choicest sh*t on the net!
Disgusting UFO/CT creeps all in bed together and crying 'patriotism' and 'truth' and 'religion' and 'strength' and 'honor' with a level of cynical hypocrisy that could only be described as criminal malappropriation of things which are obviously foreign to you and your slimy consciences.
You're a lying fraud, Sentinel. You're busted
So the fires could not have resulted in the collapse.
If JPF4 Fuel is simular to kerosene then why are'nt there more kerosene heater fires in private home even more why are'nt there more fires because of the plastic coverins around many of the makes on kerosene heaters?
Strength and Honor
Sentinel
You have just proved you are nothing but another UFO/CT conspiracy freak, or another scam artist selling to the dumb clucks who buy your crap and pay up like good little idotic gullible sheep with more money for you fleece them out of than they have brains to think with.
Research into fires caused by improperly maintained or faulty home kerosene heaters will tell that you are bullsh*tting. By improperly maintained or faulty it means that the kerosene in the reservoir is made hot and the vapours allowed to mix with enough air before controlled burning off the 'wick' surfaces where it is designed to burn. So there WERE MANY such fires around the world before design changes made 'maintenance' and premature mixing/ignition a 'non issue'.
So in the best traditions of malicious and/or ignorant UFO/CT conspiracy monger, you lied your head off there.
And if the fires on Feb 13, 1975 on six floors were burning 'much hotter' like you say, despite the firemen's efforts, then WHAT were the fires 'burning'? Could it be all that OFICE FURNITURE, EQUIPMENT and the various OFFICE FUEL SUPPLIES on all those floors? If that's the case, why would not the 9/11 fires NOT 'burn' HOTTER considering there were NO firemen fighting it? And WHY would the addition of 150 tons of Aluminum and Kerosene NOT make them burn EVEN HOTTER than the Feb 13 fires which ONLY had the Office fuels to burn?
So you are STILL lying like a good little UFO/CT wanker.
Why didn't the Feb 13 fires not collapse the tower? Could it be that a plane didn't fly THROUGH it and REMOVE FIREPROOFING from critical structural members? Which then led to catastrophic failures in 9/11 fires? Unlike in the Feb 13 fires which did NOT occur because the fireproofing was INTACT and FRESSHER and less degraded with age as well as extreme vibratory and direct-impact dislodgement?
You lied about THAT to, didn't you?
That makes THREE STRIKES and you're out. you fraud and scam artist. Get out and stay out, you turd. Go sell you sh*t somewhere where people aren't too smart to see what you're selling. You and Foxx1957 should 'merge' your 'businesses' and advertise under a 'joint venture' in STUPIDITY and PERVERSE anti-social activities. Here's a suggested slogan for your new joint venture in lunacy, idiocy, gullibility lies and fraud:
SENTINEL-FOXXa957: Your place of choice for the choicest sh*t on the net!
Disgusting UFO/CT creeps all in bed together and crying 'patriotism' and 'truth' and 'religion' and 'strength' and 'honor' with a level of cynical hypocrisy that could only be described as criminal malappropriation of things which are obviously foreign to you and your slimy consciences.
You're a lying fraud, Sentinel. You're busted
QUOTE (Sentinel+Feb 6 2006, 03:47 PM)
On Feb 13 1975 there was a fire in the north tower that burned much hoter than the fire on 911. The fire was bloweing out the windows on six floors and 30 firemen were taken to the hospital for heat and smoke exaustion. There was no ventilation and no sprinkler system and the fire went to 3 alarms. There was a calll for an investiagtion on why the buildings were not to code.
So the fires could not have resulted in the collapse.
If JPF4 Fuel is simular to kerosene then why are'nt there more kerosene heater fires in private home even more why are'nt there more fires because of the plastic coverins around many of the makes on kerosene heaters?
Strength and Honor
Sentinel
Sentinel
I read some were you had access to the blue prints,was this true?
So the fires could not have resulted in the collapse.
If JPF4 Fuel is simular to kerosene then why are'nt there more kerosene heater fires in private home even more why are'nt there more fires because of the plastic coverins around many of the makes on kerosene heaters?
Strength and Honor
Sentinel
Sentinel
I read some were you had access to the blue prints,was this true?
A witness saw flashes. He says:
"I mean, it could have been as a result of the building collapsing, things exploding"
He is merely expressing one possible explanation, and he is not even expressing that as his opinion! It could have been many things, indeed.
In any case the primary evidence is what he saw, not his opinion about what might have been the cause of that.
"I mean, it could have been as a result of the building collapsing, things exploding"
He is merely expressing one possible explanation, and he is not even expressing that as his opinion! It could have been many things, indeed.
In any case the primary evidence is what he saw, not his opinion about what might have been the cause of that.
QUOTE (frater plecticus+Feb 6 2006, 11:44 PM)
Sentinel QUOTE
ditto
Metamars, in response to your question regarding my civil engineering colleagues, it's going to be a little difficult to make any sort of working model or hypothesis without the plans of the building (which seem to have been disappeared).
Looks like the tentacles of "Al-Qaeda" reach pretty far.....
Hence my suggestion that you also ask them to rate themselves as to familiarity with the subject.
However, I guess you're also implying that they wouldn't care to venture an opinion at all unless they had a good fact base. However, even some type of poll also yielding this type of info would be of interest. Note that some "popes' and "skeptics" imply that civil engineers are just fine with the FEMA/NIST Fairy Tales. If they are not even familiar with them (other than their conclusions), then obviously these "popes" and "skeptics" are missing the point, once again, and attempting to contribute to a pseudo-reality which they are comfortable with.
Frankly, my expectation is that most civil engineers who paid attention to this topic at all just saw the TV specials and said "Seems plausible to me" and went on with their lives. However, civil engineers who have seen photos of massive dust-laden explosions, "fireworks", exterior column sections sticking out of adjacent buildings, red hot steel weeks later, an entire top of a WTC building which, after rotating approximately 30 degrees, "loses" its angular momentum , etc., etc., will of course have their suspicions aroused. How many of these engineers then looked more carefully at the NIST/FEMA reports is anybody's guess.
Of course, with some common sense, it's likely they felt that the FEMA/NIST accounts were irrelevant, since they explained none of these features, any more than they explained how a local collapse could have turned into a global collapse.
QUOTE
Heres to holding those responsible accountable.
ditto
Metamars, in response to your question regarding my civil engineering colleagues, it's going to be a little difficult to make any sort of working model or hypothesis without the plans of the building (which seem to have been disappeared).
Looks like the tentacles of "Al-Qaeda" reach pretty far.....
Hence my suggestion that you also ask them to rate themselves as to familiarity with the subject.
However, I guess you're also implying that they wouldn't care to venture an opinion at all unless they had a good fact base. However, even some type of poll also yielding this type of info would be of interest. Note that some "popes' and "skeptics" imply that civil engineers are just fine with the FEMA/NIST Fairy Tales. If they are not even familiar with them (other than their conclusions), then obviously these "popes" and "skeptics" are missing the point, once again, and attempting to contribute to a pseudo-reality which they are comfortable with.
Frankly, my expectation is that most civil engineers who paid attention to this topic at all just saw the TV specials and said "Seems plausible to me" and went on with their lives. However, civil engineers who have seen photos of massive dust-laden explosions, "fireworks", exterior column sections sticking out of adjacent buildings, red hot steel weeks later, an entire top of a WTC building which, after rotating approximately 30 degrees, "loses" its angular momentum , etc., etc., will of course have their suspicions aroused. How many of these engineers then looked more carefully at the NIST/FEMA reports is anybody's guess.
Of course, with some common sense, it's likely they felt that the FEMA/NIST accounts were irrelevant, since they explained none of these features, any more than they explained how a local collapse could have turned into a global collapse.
QUOTE (Guest+Feb 7 2006, 12:28 AM)
QUOTE (Sentinel+Feb 6 2006, 11:47 PM)
On Feb 13 1975 there was a fire in the north tower that burned much hoter than the fire on 911. The fire was bloweing out the windows on six floors and 30 firemen were taken to the hospital for heat and smoke exaustion. There was no ventilation and no sprinkler system and the fire went to 3 alarms. There was a calll for an investiagtion on why the buildings were not to code.
So the fires could not have resulted in the collapse.
If JPF4 Fuel is simular to kerosene then why are'nt there more kerosene heater fires in private home even more why are'nt there more fires because of the plastic coverins around many of the makes on kerosene heaters?
Strength and Honor
Sentinel
You have just proved you are nothing but another UFO/CT conspiracy freak, or another scam artist selling to the dumb clucks who buy your crap and pay up like good little idotic gullible sheep with more money for you fleece them out of than they have brains to think with.
Research into fires caused by improperly maintained or faulty home kerosene heaters will tell that you are bullsh*tting. By improperly maintained or faulty it means that the kerosene in the reservoir is made hot and the vapours allowed to mix with enough air before controlled burning off the 'wick' surfaces where it is designed to burn. So there WERE MANY such fires around the world before design changes made 'maintenance' and premature mixing/ignition a 'non issue'.
So in the best traditions of malicious and/or ignorant UFO/CT conspiracy monger, you lied your head off there.
And if the fires on Feb 13, 1975 on six floors were burning 'much hotter' like you say, despite the firemen's efforts, then WHAT were the fires 'burning'? Could it be all that OFICE FURNITURE, EQUIPMENT and the various OFFICE FUEL SUPPLIES on all those floors? If that's the case, why would not the 9/11 fires NOT 'burn' HOTTER considering there were NO firemen fighting it? And WHY would the addition of 150 tons of Aluminum and Kerosene NOT make them burn EVEN HOTTER than the Feb 13 fires which ONLY had the Office fuels to burn?
So you are STILL lying like a good little UFO/CT wanker.
Why didn't the Feb 13 fires not collapse the tower? Could it be that a plane didn't fly THROUGH it and REMOVE FIREPROOFING from critical structural members? Which then led to catastrophic failures in 9/11 fires? Unlike in the Feb 13 fires which did NOT occur because the fireproofing was INTACT and FRESSHER and less degraded with age as well as extreme vibratory and direct-impact dislodgement?
You lied about THAT to, didn't you?
That makes THREE STRIKES and you're out. you fraud and scam artist. Get out and stay out, you turd. Go sell you sh*t somewhere where people aren't too smart to see what you're selling. You and Foxx1957 should 'merge' your 'businesses' and advertise under a 'joint venture' in STUPIDITY and PERVERSE anti-social activities. Here's a suggested slogan for your new joint venture in lunacy, idiocy, gullibility lies and fraud:
SENTINEL-FOXXa957: Your place of choice for the choicest sh*t on the net!
Disgusting UFO/CT creeps all in bed together and crying 'patriotism' and 'truth' and 'religion' and 'strength' and 'honor' with a level of cynical hypocrisy that could only be described as criminal malappropriation of things which are obviously foreign to you and your slimy consciences.
You're a lying fraud, Sentinel. You're busted
True, and the fires in 1975 didn't burn under trusses which had their fire proofing blown off by an AIRLINER TRAVELING AT 500 MILE AN HOUR either.That's another bit of information a real fireman would know.
What an absolute, idiotic moron. I can't think up enough scummy names to adequately fit your M.O. You are so disingenuous it's not even funny.
The towers fell at near free fall speed you jerk. There was no resistance you idiot. The towers fell as if there was nothing holding them up, but air.
Quit pretending to act as if you have a brain or the slightest interest in physics and/or the laws of gravity.
It is impossible for steel frame structures to collapse at free fall speed, unless control demolition was used.
Who in the heck do you think your kidding any way? Maybe the other morons on this board that have less intelligence than a rock, even small children know that steel doesn't just vanish into thin air and/or fine dust.
I'm about sick and tired of watching these poor excuses of human beings posting all this utter nonsense, while pretending to have something going on upstairs. It's sickening. And then to watch them use these sick twisted lies to justify murdering innocent little children makes me want to reach through this computer and smack you down you little punk. Your a gutless coward and it's no wonder your having so many personal problems at home.
This has turned into an orgy of idiots jerking each other off, accomplishing nothing other than making themselves feel good about B.S.ing everyone.
Who in the heck are you guys trying to impress with your ignorance any way? Arthur, or common sense, or the other mentally deficit ignoramuses on this board? Exactly what is it that your trying to accomplish any way? Try to make people as stupid as you are, or just try to make them so sick they don't want to waste another second on this idiotic, waste of a time message board?
You should be aware of the New Civil Engineer article published 6th October 2005
You should be aware of the New Civil Engineer article published 6th October 2005
The article below is copied directly from ‘New Civil Engineer’ (NCE) magazine, which is a magazine for construction professionals & members of the UK Institution of Civil Engineers (established 1818), (www.ice.org.uk). Publication date 6th October 2005. (Magazine website www.nceplus.co.uk)
WTC Investigators Resist Call for Collapse Visualisation
World Trade Center disaster investigators are refusing to show computer visualisations of the collapse of the Twin Towers despite calls from leading structural and fire engineers, NCE has learned.
Visualisations of collapse mechanisms are routinely used to validate the type of finite element analysis model used by the investigators.
The collapse mechanism and the role played by the hat truss at the top of the tower has been the focus of debate since the US National Institute of Standards & Technology (NIST) published its findings (NCE 22 September 2005).
NIST showed detailed computer generated visualisations of both the plane impacts and the development of fires within WTC1 and WTC2 at a recent conference at its Gaithersburg HQ. But the actual collapse mechanisms of the towers were not shown as visualisations.
University of Manchester (UK) professor of structural engineering Colin Bailey said there was a lot to be gained from visualising the structural response. “NIST should really show the visualisations, otherwise the opportunity to correlate them back to the video evidence and identify any errors in the modelling will be lost,” he said.
University of Sheffield professor Roger Plank added that visualisations of the collapses of the towers “would be a very powerful tool to promote the design code changes recommended by NIST.”
NIST told NCE this week that it did not believe there is much value in visualising quasi-static processes such as thermal response and load redistribution up to the point of global collapse initiation and has chosen not to develop such visualisations.
But it said it would ‘consider’ developing visualisations of its global structural collapse model, although its contract with the finite element analysis subcontractor was now terminated.
A leading US structural engineer said NIST had obviously devoted enormous resources to the development of the impact and fire models. “By comparison the global structural model is not as sophisticated,” he said.
“The software used has been pushed to new limits, and there have been a lot of simplifications, extrapolations and judgement calls. This doesn’t mean NIST has got it wrong in principle, but it does mean it would be hard to produce a definitive visualisation from the analysis so far.”
Lets parse this shall we?
Ok the TEASER HEADLINE:
WTC Investigators Resist Call for Collapse Visualisation World Trade Center disaster investigators are refusing to show computer visualisations of the collapse of the Twin Towers despite calls from leading structural and fire engineers, NCE has learned.
So this teaser makes it SOUND LIKE NIST is HIDING something.
But the REALITY is different, NIST isn't REFUSING TO SHOW ANYTHING. NIST simply didn't spend the MONEY to DEVELOP the visualizations that SOME people would like to see.
Visualizations are interesting but also very expensive to produce. As the article said, NIST is considering their request and hasn't ruled it out.
As a leading US structural engineer said "This doesn’t mean NIST has got it wrong"
NIST obviously sees its money spent better elsewhere, such as the study of WTC 7, for which they have said they DO plan on developing a better Global Collapse model.
Arthur
So the fires could not have resulted in the collapse.
If JPF4 Fuel is simular to kerosene then why are'nt there more kerosene heater fires in private home even more why are'nt there more fires because of the plastic coverins around many of the makes on kerosene heaters?
Strength and Honor
Sentinel
You have just proved you are nothing but another UFO/CT conspiracy freak, or another scam artist selling to the dumb clucks who buy your crap and pay up like good little idotic gullible sheep with more money for you fleece them out of than they have brains to think with.
Research into fires caused by improperly maintained or faulty home kerosene heaters will tell that you are bullsh*tting. By improperly maintained or faulty it means that the kerosene in the reservoir is made hot and the vapours allowed to mix with enough air before controlled burning off the 'wick' surfaces where it is designed to burn. So there WERE MANY such fires around the world before design changes made 'maintenance' and premature mixing/ignition a 'non issue'.
So in the best traditions of malicious and/or ignorant UFO/CT conspiracy monger, you lied your head off there.
And if the fires on Feb 13, 1975 on six floors were burning 'much hotter' like you say, despite the firemen's efforts, then WHAT were the fires 'burning'? Could it be all that OFICE FURNITURE, EQUIPMENT and the various OFFICE FUEL SUPPLIES on all those floors? If that's the case, why would not the 9/11 fires NOT 'burn' HOTTER considering there were NO firemen fighting it? And WHY would the addition of 150 tons of Aluminum and Kerosene NOT make them burn EVEN HOTTER than the Feb 13 fires which ONLY had the Office fuels to burn?
So you are STILL lying like a good little UFO/CT wanker.
Why didn't the Feb 13 fires not collapse the tower? Could it be that a plane didn't fly THROUGH it and REMOVE FIREPROOFING from critical structural members? Which then led to catastrophic failures in 9/11 fires? Unlike in the Feb 13 fires which did NOT occur because the fireproofing was INTACT and FRESSHER and less degraded with age as well as extreme vibratory and direct-impact dislodgement?
You lied about THAT to, didn't you?
That makes THREE STRIKES and you're out. you fraud and scam artist. Get out and stay out, you turd. Go sell you sh*t somewhere where people aren't too smart to see what you're selling. You and Foxx1957 should 'merge' your 'businesses' and advertise under a 'joint venture' in STUPIDITY and PERVERSE anti-social activities. Here's a suggested slogan for your new joint venture in lunacy, idiocy, gullibility lies and fraud:
SENTINEL-FOXXa957: Your place of choice for the choicest sh*t on the net!
Disgusting UFO/CT creeps all in bed together and crying 'patriotism' and 'truth' and 'religion' and 'strength' and 'honor' with a level of cynical hypocrisy that could only be described as criminal malappropriation of things which are obviously foreign to you and your slimy consciences.
You're a lying fraud, Sentinel. You're busted
True, and the fires in 1975 didn't burn under trusses which had their fire proofing blown off by an AIRLINER TRAVELING AT 500 MILE AN HOUR either.That's another bit of information a real fireman would know.
QUOTE (hereward+Feb 7 2006, 12:48 AM)
A witness saw flashes. He says:
"I mean, it could have been as a result of the building collapsing, things exploding"
He is merely expressing one possible explanation, and he is not even expressing that as his opinion! It could have been many things, indeed.
In any case the primary evidence is what he saw, not his opinion about what might have been the cause of that.
What about all those volatile office fuel supplies and office equipment toner, hydrocarbon ink cartridges etc. which would have been compressed, vaporised and atomised and compression heated and ignited a la diesel engines? They could explode and produce flashes.
What about the electrical shorts and their plastic/oil insulation being suddenly high-tension 'arc' vaporised? They could explode and produce flashes.
What about the compressed air pressure front going ahead of the pancake ripple and being squirted out the windows, blowing them out ahead of the actual 'booms' of floor-to-floor impacts? It was a SUNNY BRIGHT DAY and these countless shattered window panes/shards could have produced bright-sun flashes like MIRRORS at various angles as they left their window frames. Especially since most windows are 'glare-reflecting types which are DESIGNED to REFLECT the SUNLIGHT so as not to overheat buildings like that.
How's that for starters?
"I mean, it could have been as a result of the building collapsing, things exploding"
He is merely expressing one possible explanation, and he is not even expressing that as his opinion! It could have been many things, indeed.
In any case the primary evidence is what he saw, not his opinion about what might have been the cause of that.
What about all those volatile office fuel supplies and office equipment toner, hydrocarbon ink cartridges etc. which would have been compressed, vaporised and atomised and compression heated and ignited a la diesel engines? They could explode and produce flashes.
What about the electrical shorts and their plastic/oil insulation being suddenly high-tension 'arc' vaporised? They could explode and produce flashes.
What about the compressed air pressure front going ahead of the pancake ripple and being squirted out the windows, blowing them out ahead of the actual 'booms' of floor-to-floor impacts? It was a SUNNY BRIGHT DAY and these countless shattered window panes/shards could have produced bright-sun flashes like MIRRORS at various angles as they left their window frames. Especially since most windows are 'glare-reflecting types which are DESIGNED to REFLECT the SUNLIGHT so as not to overheat buildings like that.
How's that for starters?
QUOTE (Sentinel+Feb 6 2006, 06:27 PM)
Before the Governator was elected the Californias legal system was going to file crimminal charges against ENRON for the ilegal rolling brown outs but then there was a run off and the governator changed the laws.
Strength and Honor
Sentinel
Last time I looked the Governor ENFORCES the laws, the LEGISLATURE makes the laws.
When was this changed in California?
You are sounding more and more like your typical MORON.
The fact that you can't spell isn't helping your claims either.
Arthur
Strength and Honor
Sentinel
Last time I looked the Governor ENFORCES the laws, the LEGISLATURE makes the laws.
When was this changed in California?
You are sounding more and more like your typical MORON.
The fact that you can't spell isn't helping your claims either.
Arthur
what happened to commin sense? and 'da hood' talk and 'da hood' spelling?
it's almost like you were PRETENDING to spell poorly, and you forget sometimes. poor guy.
p.s. about tower seven from the other thread, it's TWO lousy videos, one internet, and one original and a stopwatch(digital timestamp), and a lousy internet gravity rate simulation with a lousy hand and a lousy ball and lousy air resistance variables at the input. then, lousy newtonian(thank you) physics formulas are applied to the lousy thing, showing us that tower seven fell at the lousy rate of the acceleration of gravity.
so, common sense, instead of berating 'CTs' all day, why don't you go fight the 'real crimes'? why are YOU spending your time, protecting bush from 'lunacy', when you could be lobbying for his arrest? why do you admonish people for 'wasting time' discussing these issues, when YOU could be out there discussing the 'real' issues with 'liberal activists'? you see, commin popsicle, you are doing the exact thing you hate conspiracy theorists for, and that is discussing the physical impossibilities of the official 911 story.
why don't you just buy a megaphone, and hit the streets with the goods on the REAL crimes of the bushies, instead of 'wasting time' and 'diverting attention' from the good work of 'liberal activists'.
come up with a sock puppet that's not self-contradictory and 'ironic', maybe? it would be more convincing. just trying to help.
it's almost like you were PRETENDING to spell poorly, and you forget sometimes. poor guy.
p.s. about tower seven from the other thread, it's TWO lousy videos, one internet, and one original and a stopwatch(digital timestamp), and a lousy internet gravity rate simulation with a lousy hand and a lousy ball and lousy air resistance variables at the input. then, lousy newtonian(thank you) physics formulas are applied to the lousy thing, showing us that tower seven fell at the lousy rate of the acceleration of gravity.
so, common sense, instead of berating 'CTs' all day, why don't you go fight the 'real crimes'? why are YOU spending your time, protecting bush from 'lunacy', when you could be lobbying for his arrest? why do you admonish people for 'wasting time' discussing these issues, when YOU could be out there discussing the 'real' issues with 'liberal activists'? you see, commin popsicle, you are doing the exact thing you hate conspiracy theorists for, and that is discussing the physical impossibilities of the official 911 story.
why don't you just buy a megaphone, and hit the streets with the goods on the REAL crimes of the bushies, instead of 'wasting time' and 'diverting attention' from the good work of 'liberal activists'.
come up with a sock puppet that's not self-contradictory and 'ironic', maybe? it would be more convincing. just trying to help.
QUOTE (newton+Feb 7 2006, 01:21 AM)
what happened to commin sense? and 'da hood' talk and 'da hood' spelling?
it's almost like you were PRETENDING to spell poorly, and you forget sometimes. poor guy.
p.s. about tower seven from the other thread, it's TWO lousy videos, one internet, and one original and a stopwatch(digital timestamp), and a lousy internet gravity rate simulation with a lousy hand and a lousy ball and lousy air resistance variables at the input. then, lousy newtonian(thank you) physics formulas are applied to the lousy thing, showing us that tower seven fell at the lousy rate of the acceleration of gravity.
so, common sense, instead of berating 'CTs' all day, why don't you go fight the 'real crimes'? why are YOU spending your time, protecting bush from 'lunacy', when you could be lobbying for his arrest? why do you admonish people for 'wasting time' discussing these issues, when YOU could be out there discussing the 'real' issues with 'liberal activists'? you see, commin popsicle, you are doing the exact thing you hate conspiracy theorists for, and that is discussing the physical impossibilities of the official 911 story.
why don't you just buy a megaphone, and hit the streets with the goods on the REAL crimes of the bushies, instead of 'wasting time' and 'diverting attention' from the good work of 'liberal activists'.
come up with a sock puppet that's not self-contradictory and 'ironic', maybe? it would be more convincing. just trying to help.
Mr Newton, it may have escaped your notice that this is PhysOrgForums. You know, a PHYSICS and Science discussion board. And also that Mr Adoucette and others were here BEFORE you and the UFO/CT clown car pulled up and spilled UNintelligence all over these forums.
It is also the duty of every SCIENTIST here to 'correct' and or 'falsify' whatever mindless sh*t is being thrown into these SCIENCE forums by people like YOU who have NO PHYSICS and NO intelligence to offer the internet community at large, let alone any SCIENTIFIC community, especially HERE where Mr Adoucette and others PRECEDED you and your clown escapades act.
So please refrain from casting aspersions on others before looking to your own incompetence, irrelevance and duplicity in these PHYSICS forums.
it's almost like you were PRETENDING to spell poorly, and you forget sometimes. poor guy.
p.s. about tower seven from the other thread, it's TWO lousy videos, one internet, and one original and a stopwatch(digital timestamp), and a lousy internet gravity rate simulation with a lousy hand and a lousy ball and lousy air resistance variables at the input. then, lousy newtonian(thank you) physics formulas are applied to the lousy thing, showing us that tower seven fell at the lousy rate of the acceleration of gravity.
so, common sense, instead of berating 'CTs' all day, why don't you go fight the 'real crimes'? why are YOU spending your time, protecting bush from 'lunacy', when you could be lobbying for his arrest? why do you admonish people for 'wasting time' discussing these issues, when YOU could be out there discussing the 'real' issues with 'liberal activists'? you see, commin popsicle, you are doing the exact thing you hate conspiracy theorists for, and that is discussing the physical impossibilities of the official 911 story.
why don't you just buy a megaphone, and hit the streets with the goods on the REAL crimes of the bushies, instead of 'wasting time' and 'diverting attention' from the good work of 'liberal activists'.
come up with a sock puppet that's not self-contradictory and 'ironic', maybe? it would be more convincing. just trying to help.
Mr Newton, it may have escaped your notice that this is PhysOrgForums. You know, a PHYSICS and Science discussion board. And also that Mr Adoucette and others were here BEFORE you and the UFO/CT clown car pulled up and spilled UNintelligence all over these forums.
It is also the duty of every SCIENTIST here to 'correct' and or 'falsify' whatever mindless sh*t is being thrown into these SCIENCE forums by people like YOU who have NO PHYSICS and NO intelligence to offer the internet community at large, let alone any SCIENTIFIC community, especially HERE where Mr Adoucette and others PRECEDED you and your clown escapades act.
So please refrain from casting aspersions on others before looking to your own incompetence, irrelevance and duplicity in these PHYSICS forums.
QUOTE (Sentinel+Feb 6 2006, 06:24 PM)
Its called linking Nazi to Nazis.
It seems that Turner construction was bought out in 98 by a german consortium with the first four letter of HOCH. This company was incharge of Hitlers "Air Transport Logistics Systems"
Get it?
Strength and honor
Paul Isaac Jr
Rsqsrvs@yahoo.com
What a CLOWN.
Arthur
It seems that Turner construction was bought out in 98 by a german consortium with the first four letter of HOCH. This company was incharge of Hitlers "Air Transport Logistics Systems"
Get it?
Strength and honor
Paul Isaac Jr
Rsqsrvs@yahoo.com
What a CLOWN.
Arthur
QUOTE
Guest
What about all those volatile office fuel supplies and office equipment toner, hydrocarbon ink cartridges etc. which would have been compressed, vaporised and atomised and compression heated and ignited a la diesel engines? They could explode and produce flashes.
What about all those volatile office fuel supplies and office equipment toner, hydrocarbon ink cartridges etc. which would have been compressed, vaporised and atomised and compression heated and ignited a la diesel engines? They could explode and produce flashes.
What an absolute, idiotic moron. I can't think up enough scummy names to adequately fit your M.O. You are so disingenuous it's not even funny.
The towers fell at near free fall speed you jerk. There was no resistance you idiot. The towers fell as if there was nothing holding them up, but air.
Quit pretending to act as if you have a brain or the slightest interest in physics and/or the laws of gravity.
It is impossible for steel frame structures to collapse at free fall speed, unless control demolition was used.
Who in the heck do you think your kidding any way? Maybe the other morons on this board that have less intelligence than a rock, even small children know that steel doesn't just vanish into thin air and/or fine dust.
I'm about sick and tired of watching these poor excuses of human beings posting all this utter nonsense, while pretending to have something going on upstairs. It's sickening. And then to watch them use these sick twisted lies to justify murdering innocent little children makes me want to reach through this computer and smack you down you little punk. Your a gutless coward and it's no wonder your having so many personal problems at home.
This has turned into an orgy of idiots jerking each other off, accomplishing nothing other than making themselves feel good about B.S.ing everyone.
Who in the heck are you guys trying to impress with your ignorance any way? Arthur, or common sense, or the other mentally deficit ignoramuses on this board? Exactly what is it that your trying to accomplish any way? Try to make people as stupid as you are, or just try to make them so sick they don't want to waste another second on this idiotic, waste of a time message board?
QUOTE (Sinclair+Feb 6 2006, 06:53 PM)
QUOTE
You mean like the close inspection and analysis that NIST performed and documented and for which there has been no PEER REVIEWED repudiation of?
Arthur
Arthur
You should be aware of the New Civil Engineer article published 6th October 2005
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| You mean like the close inspection and analysis that NIST performed and documented and for which there has been no PEER REVIEWED repudiation of? Arthur |
You should be aware of the New Civil Engineer article published 6th October 2005
The article below is copied directly from ‘New Civil Engineer’ (NCE) magazine, which is a magazine for construction professionals & members of the UK Institution of Civil Engineers (established 1818), (www.ice.org.uk). Publication date 6th October 2005. (Magazine website www.nceplus.co.uk)
WTC Investigators Resist Call for Collapse Visualisation
World Trade Center disaster investigators are refusing to show computer visualisations of the collapse of the Twin Towers despite calls from leading structural and fire engineers, NCE has learned.
Visualisations of collapse mechanisms are routinely used to validate the type of finite element analysis model used by the investigators.
The collapse mechanism and the role played by the hat truss at the top of the tower has been the focus of debate since the US National Institute of Standards & Technology (NIST) published its findings (NCE 22 September 2005).
NIST showed detailed computer generated visualisations of both the plane impacts and the development of fires within WTC1 and WTC2 at a recent conference at its Gaithersburg HQ. But the actual collapse mechanisms of the towers were not shown as visualisations.
University of Manchester (UK) professor of structural engineering Colin Bailey said there was a lot to be gained from visualising the structural response. “NIST should really show the visualisations, otherwise the opportunity to correlate them back to the video evidence and identify any errors in the modelling will be lost,” he said.
University of Sheffield professor Roger Plank added that visualisations of the collapses of the towers “would be a very powerful tool to promote the design code changes recommended by NIST.”
NIST told NCE this week that it did not believe there is much value in visualising quasi-static processes such as thermal response and load redistribution up to the point of global collapse initiation and has chosen not to develop such visualisations.
But it said it would ‘consider’ developing visualisations of its global structural collapse model, although its contract with the finite element analysis subcontractor was now terminated.
A leading US structural engineer said NIST had obviously devoted enormous resources to the development of the impact and fire models. “By comparison the global structural model is not as sophisticated,” he said.
“The software used has been pushed to new limits, and there have been a lot of simplifications, extrapolations and judgement calls. This doesn’t mean NIST has got it wrong in principle, but it does mean it would be hard to produce a definitive visualisation from the analysis so far.”
Lets parse this shall we?
Ok the TEASER HEADLINE:
WTC Investigators Resist Call for Collapse Visualisation World Trade Center disaster investigators are refusing to show computer visualisations of the collapse of the Twin Towers despite calls from leading structural and fire engineers, NCE has learned.
So this teaser makes it SOUND LIKE NIST is HIDING something.
But the REALITY is different, NIST isn't REFUSING TO SHOW ANYTHING. NIST simply didn't spend the MONEY to DEVELOP the visualizations that SOME people would like to see.
QUOTE
NIST told NCE this week that it did not believe there is much value in visualising quasi-static processes such as thermal response and load redistribution up to the point of global collapse initiation and has chosen not to develop such visualisations.
Visualizations are interesting but also very expensive to produce. As the article said, NIST is considering their request and hasn't ruled it out.
As a leading US structural engineer said "This doesn’t mean NIST has got it wrong"
NIST obviously sees its money spent better elsewhere, such as the study of WTC 7, for which they have said they DO plan on developing a better Global Collapse model.
Arthur
QUOTE (frater plecticus+Feb 6 2006, 06:04 PM)
adoucette Feb 6 2006, 05:40 PM
What exactly is my position, then Arthur ?
Good last post, lenbrazil.
I have worked for 5 years as a civil engineer. I have many, many contacts in the industry (mainly in England), i would say that approx 50% of them believe that explosives were used during the collapse of the towers on 9-11. the big problem, is that
many, many, people are afraid to speak out.
Jon,
What exactly are you and your collegues afraid of? Various people say that the Towers were demo'd and have not suffered any repercusions.
If what you say is true you should go public with your suspicions write a detail report satating why you believe the collapse of the towers is better explained by controlled demo than by the impact of the planes and resultant fires .
Since you would be the first civil engineer(s) from anywhere in the world to publicly contradict the collapse theory do your report would have great impact . You should also contact scholarsfor911truth
Len
QUOTE
I take it that is because the Physics doesn't support your position.
What exactly is my position, then Arthur ?
Good last post, lenbrazil.
I have worked for 5 years as a civil engineer. I have many, many contacts in the industry (mainly in England), i would say that approx 50% of them believe that explosives were used during the collapse of the towers on 9-11. the big problem, is that
many, many, people are afraid to speak out.
Jon,
What exactly are you and your collegues afraid of? Various people say that the Towers were demo'd and have not suffered any repercusions.
If what you say is true you should go public with your suspicions write a detail report satating why you believe the collapse of the towers is better explained by controlled demo than by the impact of the planes and resultant fires .
Since you would be the first civil engineer(s) from anywhere in the world to publicly contradict the collapse theory do your report would have great impact . You should also contact scholarsfor911truth
Len
QUOTE (WikiFan+Feb 7 2006, 01:34 AM)
Mr Newton, it may have escaped your notice that this is PhysOrgForums. You know, a PHYSICS and Science discussion board. And also that Mr Adoucette and others were here BEFORE you and the UFO/CT clown car pulled up and spilled UNintelligence all over these forums.
It is also the duty of every SCIENTIST here to 'correct' and or 'falsify' whatever mindless sh*t is being thrown into these SCIENCE forums by people like YOU who have NO PHYSICS and NO intelligence to offer the internet community at large, let alone any SCIENTIFIC community, especially HERE where Mr Adoucette and others PRECEDED you and your clown escapades act.
So please refrain from casting aspersions on others before looking to your own incompetence, irrelevance and duplicity in these PHYSICS forums.
it certainly hasn't escaped my notice that there's a lot of 'guests' saying the exact same thing to Mr. Newton, LOL.
i registered, and i registered to talk about the physics of the collapse.
like, how can concrete be instantly pulverised and expelled with great velocity at the initiation of collapse? in fact, how can there be signifigant pulverisation, when the floors are giving out nearly instantly? to pulverise something, the something must push up as hard as the crushing agent is pushing down. when a floor gives out, it is not longer pushing up.
how can floor joists be the weakest link, and yet simultaneously the agents responsible for pulling in the very strong perimeter columns?
how can an asymmetrically damaged building, with sporadic areas fire damage and impact damage fall perfectly straight down?
how can one whole floors worth of core columns, perimeter columns and floor joists all give out at the exact same moment, when the alleged cause of this is heat, and yet the columns are being constantly cooled by outside air, and the fires were not at their greatest intensity? NIST showed that the greatest heat of the fires would have been within the first fifteen to forty(to be generous) minutes. this means the temperatures were getting cooler, not increasing, unless less fire means more heat in your physics text.
how can there be molten metal flowing for weeks afterwards?
you COULD say that arthur has answers for all these questions.
i would say that he has answered them all poorly. despite his mental prowess and obvious knowledge of science, he refuses to put the burden of proof on either NIST or FEMA or the US government.
all burden of proof is constantly shifted back to the conspiracy theorists.
i am reminded of a calvin and hobbes cartoon where calvin asks his dad what makes the sun come up in the morning and go down at night. his father says, 'in the morning, because the air is warming up, it causes the sun to rise, and later on, the night air begins to cool off causing the sun to sink below the horizon again'.
thank you for your kind concern concerning the 'good reputation' of this physics forum. if it was that good, there would be more questions than answers. what we have instead, on this topic, anyway, is more an attitude of SHUT UP, DUMBASS, I TOLD YOU THE ANSWER. (the 'answer' being some wild speculation pulled from the nether orifice, and polished to look like a faberge egg)
if my 'stuff' was really that mindless and unintelligent, then you are just a big meany for holding your intellectual prowess as some kind of a 'holier than thou' license to kill.
p.s. i don't care who was here first, frankly. it has nothing to do with the argument.
It is also the duty of every SCIENTIST here to 'correct' and or 'falsify' whatever mindless sh*t is being thrown into these SCIENCE forums by people like YOU who have NO PHYSICS and NO intelligence to offer the internet community at large, let alone any SCIENTIFIC community, especially HERE where Mr Adoucette and others PRECEDED you and your clown escapades act.
So please refrain from casting aspersions on others before looking to your own incompetence, irrelevance and duplicity in these PHYSICS forums.
it certainly hasn't escaped my notice that there's a lot of 'guests' saying the exact same thing to Mr. Newton, LOL.
i registered, and i registered to talk about the physics of the collapse.
like, how can concrete be instantly pulverised and expelled with great velocity at the initiation of collapse? in fact, how can there be signifigant pulverisation, when the floors are giving out nearly instantly? to pulverise something, the something must push up as hard as the crushing agent is pushing down. when a floor gives out, it is not longer pushing up.
how can floor joists be the weakest link, and yet simultaneously the agents responsible for pulling in the very strong perimeter columns?
how can an asymmetrically damaged building, with sporadic areas fire damage and impact damage fall perfectly straight down?
how can one whole floors worth of core columns, perimeter columns and floor joists all give out at the exact same moment, when the alleged cause of this is heat, and yet the columns are being constantly cooled by outside air, and the fires were not at their greatest intensity? NIST showed that the greatest heat of the fires would have been within the first fifteen to forty(to be generous) minutes. this means the temperatures were getting cooler, not increasing, unless less fire means more heat in your physics text.
how can there be molten metal flowing for weeks afterwards?
you COULD say that arthur has answers for all these questions.
i would say that he has answered them all poorly. despite his mental prowess and obvious knowledge of science, he refuses to put the burden of proof on either NIST or FEMA or the US government.
all burden of proof is constantly shifted back to the conspiracy theorists.
i am reminded of a calvin and hobbes cartoon where calvin asks his dad what makes the sun come up in the morning and go down at night. his father says, 'in the morning, because the air is warming up, it causes the sun to rise, and later on, the night air begins to cool off causing the sun to sink below the horizon again'.
thank you for your kind concern concerning the 'good reputation' of this physics forum. if it was that good, there would be more questions than answers. what we have instead, on this topic, anyway, is more an attitude of SHUT UP, DUMBASS, I TOLD YOU THE ANSWER. (the 'answer' being some wild speculation pulled from the nether orifice, and polished to look like a faberge egg)
if my 'stuff' was really that mindless and unintelligent, then you are just a big meany for holding your intellectual prowess as some kind of a 'holier than thou' license to kill.
p.s. i don't care who was here first, frankly. it has nothing to do with the argument.
QUOTE (steve1957+Feb 7 2006, 01:46 AM)
QUOTE (WikiFan+Feb 7 2006, 01:34 AM)
QUOTE (newton+Feb 7 2006, 01:21 AM)
what happened to commin sense? and 'da hood' talk and 'da hood' spelling?
it's almost like you were PRETENDING to spell poorly, and you forget sometimes. poor guy.
p.s. about tower seven from the other thread, it's TWO lousy videos, one internet, and one original and a stopwatch(digital timestamp), and a lousy internet gravity rate simulation with a lousy hand and a lousy ball and lousy air resistance variables at the input. then, lousy newtonian(thank you) physics formulas are applied to the lousy thing, showing us that tower seven fell at the lousy rate of the acceleration of gravity.
so, common sense, instead of berating 'CTs' all day, why don't you go fight the 'real crimes'? why are YOU spending your time, protecting bush from 'lunacy', when you could be lobbying for his arrest? why do you admonish people for 'wasting time' discussing these issues, when YOU could be out there discussing the 'real' issues with 'liberal activists'? you see, commin popsicle, you are doing the exact thing you hate conspiracy theorists for, and that is discussing the physical impossibilities of the official 911 story.
why don't you just buy a megaphone, and hit the streets with the goods on the REAL crimes of the bushies, instead of 'wasting time' and 'diverting attention' from the good work of 'liberal activists'.
come up with a sock puppet that's not self-contradictory and 'ironic', maybe? it would be more convincing. just trying to help.
Mr Newton, it may have escaped your notice that this is PhysOrgForums. You know, a PHYSICS and Science discussion board. And also that Mr Adoucette and others were here BEFORE you and the UFO/CT clown car pulled up and spilled UNintelligence all over these forums.
It is also the duty of every SCIENTIST here to 'correct' and or 'falsify' whatever mindless sh*t is being thrown into these SCIENCE forums by people like YOU who have NO PHYSICS and NO intelligence to offer the internet community at large, let alone any SCIENTIFIC community, especially HERE where Mr Adoucette and others PRECEDED you and your clown escapades act.
So please refrain from casting aspersions on others before looking to your own incompetence, irrelevance and duplicity in these PHYSICS forums.
What an absolute, idiotic moron. I can't think up enough scummy names to adequately fit your M.O. You are so disingenuous it's not even funny.
The towers fell at near free fall speed you jerk. There was no resistance you idiot. The towers fell as if there was nothing holding them up, but air.
Quit pretending to act as if you have a brain or the slightest interest in physics and/or the laws of gravity.
It is impossible for steel frame structures to collapse at free fall speed, unless control demolition was used.
Who in the heck do you think your kidding any way? Maybe the other morons on this board that have less intelligence than a rock, even small children know that steel doesn't just vanish into thin air and/or fine dust.
I'm about sick and tired of watching these poor excuses of human beings posting all this utter nonsense, while pretending to have something going on upstairs. It's sickening. And then to watch them use these sick twisted lies to justify murdering innocent little children makes me want to reach through this computer and smack you down you little punk. Your a gutless coward and it's no wonder your having so many personal problems at home.
This has turned into an orgy of idiots jerking each other off, accomplishing nothing other than making themselves feel good about B.S.ing everyone.
Who in the heck are you guys trying to impress with your ignorance any way? Arthur, or common sense, or the other mentally deficit ignoramuses on this board? Exactly what is it that your trying to accomplish any way? Try to make people as stupid as you are, or just try to make them so sick they don't want to waste another second on this idiotic, waste of a time message board?
Here comes the clown car again! It screetches to a halt in the Basic Physics topic and out falls a gaily painted clown 1st Class! He opens his big big painted mouth and out comes the stupidity and incoherence of a RELIGIOUS CLOWN with 'attitood'! Hahaha!
Hey clownface! Read ALL this thread before you squeal like a stuck pig. I know it's funny for all the kids, but there is a limit to what adults here will put up with.
The 'free fall' myth was busted long and many times ago! Get the facepaint out of your eyes and LOOK!
Those clowns are sure funny when they accuse others of EXACTLY what they ARE themselves, as part of RECORDED HISTORY in the annals of scam artists and religious frauds and charlatans. They let you out. THAT's what's wrong with the judicial system. It gives you ANOTHER chance to do your slimy 'stuff' all over innocent people. Disgusting fugitive from the funny farm. That's steve1957.
Don't listen to him boys and girls. He's a bad man in saintly-clown makeup. Just laugh at him. That's all he's good for nowadays. He just shouts and insults but NEVER gives any PHYSICS or MAKES SENSE in any way. What's he doing in a SCIENCE and PHYSICS forum anyway. Just taking up bandwidth for the entertainment value. Good show, steve1957! You may have no physics or sense, but you put on a hell of a show for the kiddies!
Clown gets back in car in the 'amusing' sideways slinking manner of a convicted felon and liar and cheat and bribery and corruption monger. Car rors off belching religious clown 'fluff balls' and 'bangs' all over everyone in the first row! He promises (threatens?) to return with his clown buddies and really put on a show! His clown voice recedes into the distance and is heard no more.
But the kids remember his promise (threat?), and they say:
Yay! To hell with the physics, just bring on the rest of the clowns! Yay!
And the clowns don't disappoint! Heeeeer...comes....newton the lesser clown! to entertain with that repetitive stupidity he's now famous for...almost as famous as galdur! Time he changed the record, though. His act is getting stale.
it's almost like you were PRETENDING to spell poorly, and you forget sometimes. poor guy.
p.s. about tower seven from the other thread, it's TWO lousy videos, one internet, and one original and a stopwatch(digital timestamp), and a lousy internet gravity rate simulation with a lousy hand and a lousy ball and lousy air resistance variables at the input. then, lousy newtonian(thank you) physics formulas are applied to the lousy thing, showing us that tower seven fell at the lousy rate of the acceleration of gravity.
so, common sense, instead of berating 'CTs' all day, why don't you go fight the 'real crimes'? why are YOU spending your time, protecting bush from 'lunacy', when you could be lobbying for his arrest? why do you admonish people for 'wasting time' discussing these issues, when YOU could be out there discussing the 'real' issues with 'liberal activists'? you see, commin popsicle, you are doing the exact thing you hate conspiracy theorists for, and that is discussing the physical impossibilities of the official 911 story.
why don't you just buy a megaphone, and hit the streets with the goods on the REAL crimes of the bushies, instead of 'wasting time' and 'diverting attention' from the good work of 'liberal activists'.
come up with a sock puppet that's not self-contradictory and 'ironic', maybe? it would be more convincing. just trying to help.
Mr Newton, it may have escaped your notice that this is PhysOrgForums. You know, a PHYSICS and Science discussion board. And also that Mr Adoucette and others were here BEFORE you and the UFO/CT clown car pulled up and spilled UNintelligence all over these forums.
It is also the duty of every SCIENTIST here to 'correct' and or 'falsify' whatever mindless sh*t is being thrown into these SCIENCE forums by people like YOU who have NO PHYSICS and NO intelligence to offer the internet community at large, let alone any SCIENTIFIC community, especially HERE where Mr Adoucette and others PRECEDED you and your clown escapades act.
So please refrain from casting aspersions on others before looking to your own incompetence, irrelevance and duplicity in these PHYSICS forums.
What an absolute, idiotic moron. I can't think up enough scummy names to adequately fit your M.O. You are so disingenuous it's not even funny.
The towers fell at near free fall speed you jerk. There was no resistance you idiot. The towers fell as if there was nothing holding them up, but air.
Quit pretending to act as if you have a brain or the slightest interest in physics and/or the laws of gravity.
It is impossible for steel frame structures to collapse at free fall speed, unless control demolition was used.
Who in the heck do you think your kidding any way? Maybe the other morons on this board that have less intelligence than a rock, even small children know that steel doesn't just vanish into thin air and/or fine dust.
I'm about sick and tired of watching these poor excuses of human beings posting all this utter nonsense, while pretending to have something going on upstairs. It's sickening. And then to watch them use these sick twisted lies to justify murdering innocent little children makes me want to reach through this computer and smack you down you little punk. Your a gutless coward and it's no wonder your having so many personal problems at home.
This has turned into an orgy of idiots jerking each other off, accomplishing nothing other than making themselves feel good about B.S.ing everyone.
Who in the heck are you guys trying to impress with your ignorance any way? Arthur, or common sense, or the other mentally deficit ignoramuses on this board? Exactly what is it that your trying to accomplish any way? Try to make people as stupid as you are, or just try to make them so sick they don't want to waste another second on this idiotic, waste of a time message board?
Here comes the clown car again! It screetches to a halt in the Basic Physics topic and out falls a gaily painted clown 1st Class! He opens his big big painted mouth and out comes the stupidity and incoherence of a RELIGIOUS CLOWN with 'attitood'! Hahaha!
Hey clownface! Read ALL this thread before you squeal like a stuck pig. I know it's funny for all the kids, but there is a limit to what adults here will put up with.
The 'free fall' myth was busted long and many times ago! Get the facepaint out of your eyes and LOOK!
Those clowns are sure funny when they accuse others of EXACTLY what they ARE themselves, as part of RECORDED HISTORY in the annals of scam artists and religious frauds and charlatans. They let you out. THAT's what's wrong with the judicial system. It gives you ANOTHER chance to do your slimy 'stuff' all over innocent people. Disgusting fugitive from the funny farm. That's steve1957.
Don't listen to him boys and girls. He's a bad man in saintly-clown makeup. Just laugh at him. That's all he's good for nowadays. He just shouts and insults but NEVER gives any PHYSICS or MAKES SENSE in any way. What's he doing in a SCIENCE and PHYSICS forum anyway. Just taking up bandwidth for the entertainment value. Good show, steve1957! You may have no physics or sense, but you put on a hell of a show for the kiddies!
Clown gets back in car in the 'amusing' sideways slinking manner of a convicted felon and liar and cheat and bribery and corruption monger. Car rors off belching religious clown 'fluff balls' and 'bangs' all over everyone in the first row! He promises (threatens?) to return with his clown buddies and really put on a show! His clown voice recedes into the distance and is heard no more.
But the kids remember his promise (threat?), and they say:
Yay! To hell with the physics, just bring on the rest of the clowns! Yay!
And the clowns don't disappoint! Heeeeer...comes....newton the lesser clown! to entertain with that repetitive stupidity he's now famous for...almost as famous as galdur! Time he changed the record, though. His act is getting stale.
QUOTE (newton+)
like, how can concrete be instantly pulverised and expelled with great velocity at the initiation of collapse? in fact, how can there be signifigant pulverisation, when the floors are giving out nearly instantly? to pulverise something, the something must push up as hard as the crushing agent is pushing down. when a floor gives out, it is not longer pushing up.
how can floor joists be the weakest link, and yet simultaneously the agents responsible for pulling in the very strong perimeter columns?
how can an asymmetrically damaged building, with sporadic areas fire damage and impact damage fall perfectly straight down?
how can one whole floors worth of core columns, perimeter columns and floor joists all give out at the exact same moment, when the alleged cause of this is heat, and yet the columns are being constantly cooled by outside air, and the fires were not at their greatest intensity? NIST showed that the greatest heat of the fires would have been within the first fifteen to forty(to be generous) minutes. this means the temperatures were getting cooler, not increasing, unless less fire means more heat in your physics text.
how can there be molten metal flowing for weeks afterwards?
you COULD say that arthur has answers for all these questions.
i would say that he has answered them all poorly. despite his mental prowess and obvious knowledge of science, he refuses to put the burden of proof on either NIST or FEMA or the US government.
all burden of proof is constantly shifted back to the conspiracy theorists.
Well Newt, there you go again......
What is apparently impossible for you to see is you START from the point of UNPROVEN assumptions, then you draw CONCLUSIONS based upon these assumptions, and at the end of this illogical train you say: PROVE IT DIDN'T HAPPEN. So when you say the "burden of proof is constantly shifted back to the conspiracy theorists", the point is we ask you CONSTANTLY to prove your ASSUMPTIONS.
You know, like my repeated requests for someone to provide A PICTURE or ANY PHYSICAL EVIDENCE that molten STEEL was flowing for weeks afterward.
But time and again, without any proof that molten steel was in fact FLOWING for weeks afterward, I'm asked to PROVE how it could happen.
Is it SO UNREASONABLE to ask for PROOF that something actually occurred before having to provide an explanation for its occurrence?
NIST provided the explanation of what happened to the towers. They provided it in GREAT DETAIL, yet you refuse to address SPECIFIC issues within the NIST report and do it using SCIENCE.
As an example of this, see YOUR mangled description of the "collapse" and then contrast it to the actual NIST version to see that they are not at the same, and in fact weren't the same for both towers, each suffering different damage, at different locations and then failing in a different manner.
Arthur
how can floor joists be the weakest link, and yet simultaneously the agents responsible for pulling in the very strong perimeter columns?
how can an asymmetrically damaged building, with sporadic areas fire damage and impact damage fall perfectly straight down?
how can one whole floors worth of core columns, perimeter columns and floor joists all give out at the exact same moment, when the alleged cause of this is heat, and yet the columns are being constantly cooled by outside air, and the fires were not at their greatest intensity? NIST showed that the greatest heat of the fires would have been within the first fifteen to forty(to be generous) minutes. this means the temperatures were getting cooler, not increasing, unless less fire means more heat in your physics text.
how can there be molten metal flowing for weeks afterwards?
you COULD say that arthur has answers for all these questions.
i would say that he has answered them all poorly. despite his mental prowess and obvious knowledge of science, he refuses to put the burden of proof on either NIST or FEMA or the US government.
all burden of proof is constantly shifted back to the conspiracy theorists.
Well Newt, there you go again......
What is apparently impossible for you to see is you START from the point of UNPROVEN assumptions, then you draw CONCLUSIONS based upon these assumptions, and at the end of this illogical train you say: PROVE IT DIDN'T HAPPEN. So when you say the "burden of proof is constantly shifted back to the conspiracy theorists", the point is we ask you CONSTANTLY to prove your ASSUMPTIONS.
You know, like my repeated requests for someone to provide A PICTURE or ANY PHYSICAL EVIDENCE that molten STEEL was flowing for weeks afterward.
But time and again, without any proof that molten steel was in fact FLOWING for weeks afterward, I'm asked to PROVE how it could happen.
Is it SO UNREASONABLE to ask for PROOF that something actually occurred before having to provide an explanation for its occurrence?
NIST provided the explanation of what happened to the towers. They provided it in GREAT DETAIL, yet you refuse to address SPECIFIC issues within the NIST report and do it using SCIENCE.
As an example of this, see YOUR mangled description of the "collapse" and then contrast it to the actual NIST version to see that they are not at the same, and in fact weren't the same for both towers, each suffering different damage, at different locations and then failing in a different manner.
Arthur
and, guest, are clown cars and clown spotting well-respected physics principles?
because, my 'act' is the 'facts', jack.
and the people who actually do research and critical thinking are clearly standing above the 'aurthuritarians' in both 'common sense' and 'occam's shaving', both at this forum, and out in the big world in general.
you obviously follow the bush axiom, 'you can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on'.
oh, and so i don't dissappoint, ...'toot toot'.
because, my 'act' is the 'facts', jack.
and the people who actually do research and critical thinking are clearly standing above the 'aurthuritarians' in both 'common sense' and 'occam's shaving', both at this forum, and out in the big world in general.
you obviously follow the bush axiom, 'you can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on'.
oh, and so i don't dissappoint, ...'toot toot'.
newton,
you never disappoint.
In fact, every time I see your name on a post I know pretty much what I'm going to read ahead of time.
Arthur
you never disappoint.
In fact, every time I see your name on a post I know pretty much what I'm going to read ahead of time.
Arthur
that makes two of us that are psychic, then, lol!
nist did not explain things well.
in fact, despite this, 'we' are forced to refer to their document.
it is nist that has provided the data that says nist's scenario is wild extrapolation and imaginary numbers.
nist says jet fuel didn't cause the collapse. nist SPECULATES that fireproofing was knocked off. quantatively speaking, there is nothing.
nist forensically determined that the (actual)steel was exposed to fires NO HOTTER THAN 600 DEGREES.
nist determined that typical office contents burn in about a half an hour.
nist determined that the jet fuel was NOT RESPONSIBLE for the collapse.
nist determined that they better not say anything about tower seven, yet.
nist used finite element computer modelling of fires to reproduce collapse initiation, but were not bothered by reality.
nist FAILED to reproduce the collapse mechanism. if you are trying to find out why the buildings fell, then why didn't they figure out why the buildings fell? twenty million dollars and they can't even figure out that future design standard modifications will need to be substantiated by EXHAUSTIVE study, and not HALF ARSED SUMMARY study rife with number nudging and foregone conclusions?
just my opinion. probably clownish, moronic and unscientific to want openess in the investigation, honesty from the media, and to want nist's report to be put up for peer review. probably silly to expect that if the REAL reason they did the 'investigation' was to find design flaws and a collapse mechanism, they should ACTUALLY have a collapse mechanism beyond the servile, 'once local collapse was initiated, global collapse was inevitable'.
that's gonna save a lot of lives. thanks nist. money well-spent.
nist did not explain things well.
in fact, despite this, 'we' are forced to refer to their document.
it is nist that has provided the data that says nist's scenario is wild extrapolation and imaginary numbers.
nist says jet fuel didn't cause the collapse. nist SPECULATES that fireproofing was knocked off. quantatively speaking, there is nothing.
nist forensically determined that the (actual)steel was exposed to fires NO HOTTER THAN 600 DEGREES.
nist determined that typical office contents burn in about a half an hour.
nist determined that the jet fuel was NOT RESPONSIBLE for the collapse.
nist determined that they better not say anything about tower seven, yet.
nist used finite element computer modelling of fires to reproduce collapse initiation, but were not bothered by reality.
nist FAILED to reproduce the collapse mechanism. if you are trying to find out why the buildings fell, then why didn't they figure out why the buildings fell? twenty million dollars and they can't even figure out that future design standard modifications will need to be substantiated by EXHAUSTIVE study, and not HALF ARSED SUMMARY study rife with number nudging and foregone conclusions?
just my opinion. probably clownish, moronic and unscientific to want openess in the investigation, honesty from the media, and to want nist's report to be put up for peer review. probably silly to expect that if the REAL reason they did the 'investigation' was to find design flaws and a collapse mechanism, they should ACTUALLY have a collapse mechanism beyond the servile, 'once local collapse was initiated, global collapse was inevitable'.
that's gonna save a lot of lives. thanks nist. money well-spent.
How many professional civil engineers/architects/demolition experts want to express an opinion without having access to the resources and infrastructure possessed by NIST and FEMA?
How many professionals would want to stick out their neck so far?
None, it seems. And it doesn't make any difference whether they are American, Australian, Chinese, Brazilian or Iranian.
Questioning the official theory of the collapses is in many ways an investigative and forensic exercise - you might want to look at all kinds of evidence such as witness statements about the powerdown event which occured on the weekend prior to 9/11.
You would want to look into the companies which manufacture demolition explosives or thermite, and look for any suspicious purchases, or thefts.
You would want to know exactly what happened in Building 7 during the day of 9/11. You would want to take evidence from literally thousands of people.
This primary investigative/detective work was not pursued by FEMA, NIST or the 9/11 Commission. Why?
Why did they all just take the lead from official statements. Why did they not investigate and look at every angle? Why did they not do their job?
They all worked backwards from a premise which was never questioned. It was never part of their brief to question the Official Story, which was given them as if it were a Papal Decree.
----------------------------------------------------------------
As a skeptic, you are an outsider, you are deprived of 90% of the resources and tools that were available to NIST.
Outsiders have to rely on information in the public domain. They cannot subpeona witnesses, and they can't afford to develop sophisitcated computer models, and run elaborate tests.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Any independent researcher is at an enormous disadvantage when challenging official views. Top level professionals with good standing in the engineering/building industry (which is a global in reach) have to be politically savvy. It is part of their job.
We have not yet seen any skeptical papers from top level professionals. Let's hope that this changes. Let's hope that there are some whistle blowers in establishment, who are prepared to put their reputations on the line.
Building 7 is the best candidate for a detailed and focussed study. Let's hope someone in the engineering field takes a good look at this one issue. There is clearly a prima facie case that Building 7 was taken down with explosives.
It is unlikely, however, that an engineer who presents a paper on the controlled demotition of WTC 7 is going to introduce a radically new argument. The problem is access to all the data, including building plans, and other information which is probably classified due to the fact that many level in WTC 7 were occupied by CIA, FBI and Military Intelligence.
Without access to new information, the best an engineer or architect can do is more or less repeat what Steve Jones or Jim Hoffman have said. As long as that situation continues it seems unlikely that anyone else will want to publish a paper.
----------------------------------------------------------------
It is clear that the FEMA invegators were themselves blocked from getting information they needed to do their job properly. The FEMA report states:
"The performance of WTC 7 is of significant interest because it appears the collapse was due primarily to fire, rather than any impact damage from the collapsing towers."
later it says:
"Currently, there is limited information about the ignition and development of fires at WTC 7, as well as about the specific fuels that may have been involved during the course of the fire."
Why was there "limited information"? Who did they interview? FEMA should have had ample opportunity to talk to many eye witnesses very soon after the disaster. That there was "limited information" is a way of saying that the investigation was gagged.
Would there be more information now, four and a half years later?
It is obvious that the FEMA and NIST reports were massaged into shape by political forces.
It makes a mockery of science.
It also makes a mockery of PHD's and academic qualifications generally. It makes mockery of everything that is good about western civilisation. It is in fact anti-civilisation, a return to medieval dogmatism.
The thugs who post here bashing "CTers" are no better than the Taliban thugs who bash women for not wearing a veil. They are in fact the same type of people. They cling to authority in their weakness, and in their weakness and fear they scapegoat non-conformists.
It is not necessary for the government to pay these people. They are voluntary. They are a product of the system. Just like the Taliban "protectors of the faith".
Signing off,
Hereward.
How many professionals would want to stick out their neck so far?
None, it seems. And it doesn't make any difference whether they are American, Australian, Chinese, Brazilian or Iranian.
Questioning the official theory of the collapses is in many ways an investigative and forensic exercise - you might want to look at all kinds of evidence such as witness statements about the powerdown event which occured on the weekend prior to 9/11.
You would want to look into the companies which manufacture demolition explosives or thermite, and look for any suspicious purchases, or thefts.
You would want to know exactly what happened in Building 7 during the day of 9/11. You would want to take evidence from literally thousands of people.
This primary investigative/detective work was not pursued by FEMA, NIST or the 9/11 Commission. Why?
Why did they all just take the lead from official statements. Why did they not investigate and look at every angle? Why did they not do their job?
They all worked backwards from a premise which was never questioned. It was never part of their brief to question the Official Story, which was given them as if it were a Papal Decree.
----------------------------------------------------------------
As a skeptic, you are an outsider, you are deprived of 90% of the resources and tools that were available to NIST.
Outsiders have to rely on information in the public domain. They cannot subpeona witnesses, and they can't afford to develop sophisitcated computer models, and run elaborate tests.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Any independent researcher is at an enormous disadvantage when challenging official views. Top level professionals with good standing in the engineering/building industry (which is a global in reach) have to be politically savvy. It is part of their job.
We have not yet seen any skeptical papers from top level professionals. Let's hope that this changes. Let's hope that there are some whistle blowers in establishment, who are prepared to put their reputations on the line.
Building 7 is the best candidate for a detailed and focussed study. Let's hope someone in the engineering field takes a good look at this one issue. There is clearly a prima facie case that Building 7 was taken down with explosives.
It is unlikely, however, that an engineer who presents a paper on the controlled demotition of WTC 7 is going to introduce a radically new argument. The problem is access to all the data, including building plans, and other information which is probably classified due to the fact that many level in WTC 7 were occupied by CIA, FBI and Military Intelligence.
Without access to new information, the best an engineer or architect can do is more or less repeat what Steve Jones or Jim Hoffman have said. As long as that situation continues it seems unlikely that anyone else will want to publish a paper.
----------------------------------------------------------------
It is clear that the FEMA invegators were themselves blocked from getting information they needed to do their job properly. The FEMA report states:
"The performance of WTC 7 is of significant interest because it appears the collapse was due primarily to fire, rather than any impact damage from the collapsing towers."
later it says:
"Currently, there is limited information about the ignition and development of fires at WTC 7, as well as about the specific fuels that may have been involved during the course of the fire."
Why was there "limited information"? Who did they interview? FEMA should have had ample opportunity to talk to many eye witnesses very soon after the disaster. That there was "limited information" is a way of saying that the investigation was gagged.
Would there be more information now, four and a half years later?
It is obvious that the FEMA and NIST reports were massaged into shape by political forces.
It makes a mockery of science.
It also makes a mockery of PHD's and academic qualifications generally. It makes mockery of everything that is good about western civilisation. It is in fact anti-civilisation, a return to medieval dogmatism.
The thugs who post here bashing "CTers" are no better than the Taliban thugs who bash women for not wearing a veil. They are in fact the same type of people. They cling to authority in their weakness, and in their weakness and fear they scapegoat non-conformists.
It is not necessary for the government to pay these people. They are voluntary. They are a product of the system. Just like the Taliban "protectors of the faith".
Signing off,
Hereward.
QUOTE (newton+Feb 7 2006, 02:37 AM)
and, guest, are clown cars and clown spotting well-respected physics principles?
because, my 'act' is the 'facts', jack.
and the people who actually do research and critical thinking are clearly standing above the 'aurthuritarians' in both 'common sense' and 'occam's shaving', both at this forum, and out in the big world in general.
you obviously follow the bush axiom, 'you can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on'.
oh, and so i don't dissappoint, ...'toot toot'.
Newton, ( Of C.L.O.W.N., Clueless Losers Obsessed With Nonsense) You can't see what a fool you people are making of yourselfs here. It's a riot!
because, my 'act' is the 'facts', jack.
and the people who actually do research and critical thinking are clearly standing above the 'aurthuritarians' in both 'common sense' and 'occam's shaving', both at this forum, and out in the big world in general.
you obviously follow the bush axiom, 'you can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on'.
oh, and so i don't dissappoint, ...'toot toot'.
Newton, ( Of C.L.O.W.N., Clueless Losers Obsessed With Nonsense) You can't see what a fool you people are making of yourselfs here. It's a riot!
QUOTE (newton+Feb 7 2006, 02:37 AM)
and, guest, are clown cars and clown spotting well-respected physics principles?
because, my 'act' is the 'facts', jack.
and the people who actually do research and critical thinking are clearly standing above the 'aurthuritarians' in both 'common sense' and 'occam's shaving', both at this forum, and out in the big world in general.
you obviously follow the bush axiom, 'you can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on'.
oh, and so i don't dissappoint, ...'toot toot'.
Hooooeeee! Well said newton!"....my 'act' is the 'facts', jack.".
Priceless IRONY!
Is THAT the sum total of your physics argument? Lord save us from would be laconic smart asses delude into thinking they are contributing ANYTHING to life on Earth except the ENTERTAINMENT! Haha! What a maroon!
You are definitely an irrelevant impostor of 'someone who cares'. You care about nothing but repeating and regurgitating nonsense.....much like MMC likes to do all the time!
Are YOU related to him too?
Or are you galdur in your OTHER 'trade marked' clown facepaint design? Can't you see that reading your posting record MARKS you out for what you are? Irrelevant and useless to anyone at all. Are you as intellectually impotent as Foxx1957? HE has wasted 4 years already and come up with nothing but insane UFO/CT type 'junk evidence' which NO ONE ELSE at Physorg who is sane takes seriously.
So what are you going to do next?
Entertain us by saying that ALL Physorg people are stupid and cowardly because they won't fall in line with you and johny-come-lately Funniest Clown Troupe in the World act?
Get real, you waste of air. No one buys your pseudo suave or pseudo sophisticated tone. What good is it when every word you utter betrays your immaturity, studied stupidity and your criminal waste of everybody's time who has a brain and eyes to see you're full of it.
Nasty stuff this newton. Pretends to care but only mouths off criticising those who respond to the physics, without ANY physics of his own which will withstand scientific scrutiny HERE at PHYSORGFORUMS. Why should anyone extend any 'courtesy' to YOU. You flout the rules of debate by giving NO physics in support of your assumptions. And THEN you criticise those who DO supply physics argument in support of their own assumptions.
Go to the kindergarten site for unfortunate children of UFO/CT morons. It's just a short, clown car ride, down the road from here. Maybe they will be at the right gullibility and/or stupidity level to believe your act. Hahaha.
Newton the REAL scientist is turning over in his grave because this ineffectual impostor is making a joke out of the scientific method.
newton, you have disgraced that name enough. You should change your name to 'mud'. More appropriate to your reception here so far.
You owe an apology to REAL scientists at Physorg and everywhere, PSEUDO newton!
because, my 'act' is the 'facts', jack.
and the people who actually do research and critical thinking are clearly standing above the 'aurthuritarians' in both 'common sense' and 'occam's shaving', both at this forum, and out in the big world in general.
you obviously follow the bush axiom, 'you can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on'.
oh, and so i don't dissappoint, ...'toot toot'.
Hooooeeee! Well said newton!"....my 'act' is the 'facts', jack.".
Priceless IRONY!
Is THAT the sum total of your physics argument? Lord save us from would be laconic smart asses delude into thinking they are contributing ANYTHING to life on Earth except the ENTERTAINMENT! Haha! What a maroon!
You are definitely an irrelevant impostor of 'someone who cares'. You care about nothing but repeating and regurgitating nonsense.....much like MMC likes to do all the time!
Are YOU related to him too?
Or are you galdur in your OTHER 'trade marked' clown facepaint design? Can't you see that reading your posting record MARKS you out for what you are? Irrelevant and useless to anyone at all. Are you as intellectually impotent as Foxx1957? HE has wasted 4 years already and come up with nothing but insane UFO/CT type 'junk evidence' which NO ONE ELSE at Physorg who is sane takes seriously.
So what are you going to do next?
Entertain us by saying that ALL Physorg people are stupid and cowardly because they won't fall in line with you and johny-come-lately Funniest Clown Troupe in the World act?
Get real, you waste of air. No one buys your pseudo suave or pseudo sophisticated tone. What good is it when every word you utter betrays your immaturity, studied stupidity and your criminal waste of everybody's time who has a brain and eyes to see you're full of it.
Nasty stuff this newton. Pretends to care but only mouths off criticising those who respond to the physics, without ANY physics of his own which will withstand scientific scrutiny HERE at PHYSORGFORUMS. Why should anyone extend any 'courtesy' to YOU. You flout the rules of debate by giving NO physics in support of your assumptions. And THEN you criticise those who DO supply physics argument in support of their own assumptions.
Go to the kindergarten site for unfortunate children of UFO/CT morons. It's just a short, clown car ride, down the road from here. Maybe they will be at the right gullibility and/or stupidity level to believe your act. Hahaha.
Newton the REAL scientist is turning over in his grave because this ineffectual impostor is making a joke out of the scientific method.
newton, you have disgraced that name enough. You should change your name to 'mud'. More appropriate to your reception here so far.
You owe an apology to REAL scientists at Physorg and everywhere, PSEUDO newton!
QUOTE (newton+Feb 7 2006, 03:04 AM)
that makes two of us that are psychic, then, lol!
nist did not explain things well.
in fact, despite this, 'we' are forced to refer to their document.
it is nist that has provided the data that says nist's scenario is wild extrapolation and imaginary numbers.
nist says jet fuel didn't cause the collapse. nist SPECULATES that fireproofing was knocked off. quantatively speaking, there is nothing.
nist forensically determined that the (actual)steel was exposed to fires NO HOTTER THAN 600 DEGREES.
nist determined that typical office contents burn in about a half an hour.
nist determined that the jet fuel was NOT RESPONSIBLE for the collapse.
nist determined that they better not say anything about tower seven, yet.
nist used finite element computer modelling of fires to reproduce collapse initiation, but were not bothered by reality.
nist FAILED to reproduce the collapse mechanism. if you are trying to find out why the buildings fell, then why didn't they figure out why the buildings fell? twenty million dollars and they can't even figure out that future design standard modifications will need to be substantiated by EXHAUSTIVE study, and not HALF ARSED SUMMARY study rife with number nudging and foregone conclusions?
just my opinion. probably clownish, moronic and unscientific to want openess in the investigation, honesty from the media, and to want nist's report to be put up for peer review. probably silly to expect that if the REAL reason they did the 'investigation' was to find design flaws and a collapse mechanism, they should ACTUALLY have a collapse mechanism beyond the servile, 'once local collapse was initiated, global collapse was inevitable'.
that's gonna save a lot of lives. thanks nist. money well-spent.
Is this newton guy for real? Is he that slow? Didn't someone just point out to Sentinel or whoever that if the feb 75 fires were VERY HOT (like Sentinel or whoever said) even with firemen fighting it, then the 9/11 fires must have been AT LEAST just as HOT because they burned the same OFFICE stuff 'feul', didn't they? And there were no firemen fighting the 9/11 fires AND there was a whole PLANELOAD of extra 'fuel' added to those 9/11 fires, weren't there?
And when that plane hit, does newton say that NO insulation would even be scratched? NBot a bit of insulation knocked off or separated?
Is this newton for real? Or just REAL stooopid for real?
Unbelievable! Does this guy still get his mom to tie his shoelaces? Sounds about that old!
nist did not explain things well.
in fact, despite this, 'we' are forced to refer to their document.
it is nist that has provided the data that says nist's scenario is wild extrapolation and imaginary numbers.
nist says jet fuel didn't cause the collapse. nist SPECULATES that fireproofing was knocked off. quantatively speaking, there is nothing.
nist forensically determined that the (actual)steel was exposed to fires NO HOTTER THAN 600 DEGREES.
nist determined that typical office contents burn in about a half an hour.
nist determined that the jet fuel was NOT RESPONSIBLE for the collapse.
nist determined that they better not say anything about tower seven, yet.
nist used finite element computer modelling of fires to reproduce collapse initiation, but were not bothered by reality.
nist FAILED to reproduce the collapse mechanism. if you are trying to find out why the buildings fell, then why didn't they figure out why the buildings fell? twenty million dollars and they can't even figure out that future design standard modifications will need to be substantiated by EXHAUSTIVE study, and not HALF ARSED SUMMARY study rife with number nudging and foregone conclusions?
just my opinion. probably clownish, moronic and unscientific to want openess in the investigation, honesty from the media, and to want nist's report to be put up for peer review. probably silly to expect that if the REAL reason they did the 'investigation' was to find design flaws and a collapse mechanism, they should ACTUALLY have a collapse mechanism beyond the servile, 'once local collapse was initiated, global collapse was inevitable'.
that's gonna save a lot of lives. thanks nist. money well-spent.
Is this newton guy for real? Is he that slow? Didn't someone just point out to Sentinel or whoever that if the feb 75 fires were VERY HOT (like Sentinel or whoever said) even with firemen fighting it, then the 9/11 fires must have been AT LEAST just as HOT because they burned the same OFFICE stuff 'feul', didn't they? And there were no firemen fighting the 9/11 fires AND there was a whole PLANELOAD of extra 'fuel' added to those 9/11 fires, weren't there?
And when that plane hit, does newton say that NO insulation would even be scratched? NBot a bit of insulation knocked off or separated?
Is this newton for real? Or just REAL stooopid for real?
Unbelievable! Does this guy still get his mom to tie his shoelaces? Sounds about that old!
okay then, guest clown-spotter.
i'm sorry.
in case you didn't read these physics arguments(of which i have provided MANY more in this thread, including losses of angular momentum in both the tilting 'cap', and in the briefly remaining 'spire', which shouldn't have fallen at all, the lack of 'buckled steel' in the debris pile, the lateral ejection of steel by some kind of 'spring' mechanism, ad nauseum...)
nist did not explain things well.
in fact, despite this, 'we' are forced to refer to their document.
it is nist that has provided the data that says nist's scenario is wild extrapolation and imaginary numbers.
nist says jet fuel didn't cause the collapse. nist SPECULATES that fireproofing was knocked off.quantatively speaking, there is nothing.nist forensically determined that the (actual)steel was exposed to fires NO HOTTER THAN 600 DEGREES.nist determined that typical office contents burn in about a half an hour. nist determined that the jet fuel was NOT RESPONSIBLE for the collapse. nist determined that they better not say anything about tower seven, yet.
nist used finite element computer modelling of fires to reproduce collapse initiation, but were not bothered by reality.
nist FAILED to reproduce the collapse mechanism. if you are trying to find out why the buildings fell, then why didn't they figure out why the buildings fell? twenty million dollars and they can't even figure out that future design standard modifications will need to be substantiated by EXHAUSTIVE study, and
not HALF ARSED SUMMARY study rife with number nudging and foregone conclusions?
did you read it that time, super smart clown spotter?
i'm sorry.
in case you didn't read these physics arguments(of which i have provided MANY more in this thread, including losses of angular momentum in both the tilting 'cap', and in the briefly remaining 'spire', which shouldn't have fallen at all, the lack of 'buckled steel' in the debris pile, the lateral ejection of steel by some kind of 'spring' mechanism, ad nauseum...)
nist did not explain things well.
in fact, despite this, 'we' are forced to refer to their document.
it is nist that has provided the data that says nist's scenario is wild extrapolation and imaginary numbers.
nist says jet fuel didn't cause the collapse. nist SPECULATES that fireproofing was knocked off.quantatively speaking, there is nothing.nist forensically determined that the (actual)steel was exposed to fires NO HOTTER THAN 600 DEGREES.nist determined that typical office contents burn in about a half an hour. nist determined that the jet fuel was NOT RESPONSIBLE for the collapse. nist determined that they better not say anything about tower seven, yet.
nist used finite element computer modelling of fires to reproduce collapse initiation, but were not bothered by reality.
nist FAILED to reproduce the collapse mechanism. if you are trying to find out why the buildings fell, then why didn't they figure out why the buildings fell? twenty million dollars and they can't even figure out that future design standard modifications will need to be substantiated by EXHAUSTIVE study, and
not HALF ARSED SUMMARY study rife with number nudging and foregone conclusions?
did you read it that time, super smart clown spotter?
QUOTE (hereward+Feb 7 2006, 03:04 AM)
How many professional civil engineers/architects/demolition experts want to express an opinion without having access to the resources and infrastructure possessed by NIST and FEMA?
How many professionals would want to stick out their neck so far?
None, it seems. And it doesn't make any difference whether they are American, Australian, Chinese, Brazilian or Iranian.
Questioning the official theory of the collapses is in many ways an investigative and forensic exercise - you might want to look at all kinds of evidence such as witness statements about the powerdown event which occured on the weekend prior to 9/11.
You would want to look into the companies which manufacture demolition explosives or thermite, and look for any suspicious purchases, or thefts.
You would want to know exactly what happened in Building 7 during the day of 9/11. You would want to take evidence from literally thousands of people.
This primary investigative/detective work was not pursued by FEMA, NIST or the 9/11 Commission. Why?
Why did they all just take the lead from official statements. Why did they not investigate and look at every angle? Why did they not do their job?
They all worked backwards from a premise which was never questioned. It was never part of their brief to question the Official Story, which was given them as if it were a Papal Decree.
----------------------------------------------------------------
As a skeptic, you are an outsider, you are deprived of 90% of the resources and tools that were available to NIST.
Outsiders have to rely on information in the public domain. They cannot subpeona witnesses, and they can't afford to develop sophisitcated computer models, and run elaborate tests.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Any independent researcher is at an enormous disadvantage when challenging official views. Top level professionals with good standing in the engineering/building industry (which is a global in reach) have to be politically savvy. It is part of their job.
We have not yet seen any skeptical papers from top level professionals. Let's hope that this changes. Let's hope that there are some whistle blowers in establishment, who are prepared to put their reputations on the line.
Building 7 is the best candidate for a detailed and focussed study. Let's hope someone in the engineering field takes a good look at this one issue. There is clearly a prima facie case that Building 7 was taken down with explosives.
It is unlikely, however, that an engineer who presents a paper on the controlled demotition of WTC 7 is going to introduce a radically new argument. The problem is access to all the data, including building plans, and other information which is probably classified due to the fact that many level in WTC 7 were occupied by CIA, FBI and Military Intelligence.
Without access to new information, the best an engineer or architect can do is more or less repeat what Steve Jones or Jim Hoffman have said. As long as that situation continues it seems unlikely that anyone else will want to publish a paper.
----------------------------------------------------------------
It is clear that the FEMA invegators were themselves blocked from getting information they needed to do their job properly. The FEMA report states:
"The performance of WTC 7 is of significant interest because it appears the collapse was due primarily to fire, rather than any impact damage from the collapsing towers."
later it says:
"Currently, there is limited information about the ignition and development of fires at WTC 7, as well as about the specific fuels that may have been involved during the course of the fire."
Why was there "limited information"? Who did they interview? FEMA should have had ample opportunity to talk to many eye witnesses very soon after the disaster. That there was "limited information" is a way of saying that the investigation was gagged.
Would there be more information now, four and a half years later?
It is obvious that the FEMA and NIST reports were massaged into shape by political forces.
It makes a mockery of science.
It also makes a mockery of PHD's and academic qualifications generally. It makes mockery of everything that is good about western civilisation. It is in fact anti-civilisation, a return to medieval dogmatism.
The thugs who post here bashing "CTers" are no better than the Taliban thugs who bash women for not wearing a veil. They are in fact the same type of people. They cling to authority in their weakness, and in their weakness and fear they scapegoat non-conformists.
It is not necessary for the government to pay these people. They are voluntary. They are a product of the system. Just like the Taliban "protectors of the faith".
Signing off,
Hereward.
You just wrote that whole diatribe without one shred of evidence to back up anything you said. You say "It is obvious that the FEMA and NIST reports were massaged into shape by political forces." yet you don't have a memo, whistle blower or anything to buttress this view. Yet ironically you say you don't have all the info the NIST has.
Sorry, but I've been all over the NIST site and there IS enough evidence to support the report. The fire tests are especially telling. Not only is it possible for temperatures to reach 800 degress but they reached 1200 in testing.
http://wtc.nist.gov/media/gallery2.htm#fire
There are to many people involved in the report for a conspiracy not to have leaked out. It's absurd to suggest ever single person who could come out on such a grand conspiracy wouldn't because they fear their jobs. In any large conspiracy their are always people who talk. They talk to the press and in some cases do it as an anonymous source. Many people have come out for less. The WMD coverup is a perfect example where people quit thier jobs in protest. The spying on Americans scandle had a judge quit in protest.
For us to believe the NIST, CIA, FBI, NYC fire department, NYC police department, Media, Silverstin, everyone in the pentagon... As if none of these orgs had liberals who hate Bush in them. Nope, sorry, don't buy it...
How many professionals would want to stick out their neck so far?
None, it seems. And it doesn't make any difference whether they are American, Australian, Chinese, Brazilian or Iranian.
Questioning the official theory of the collapses is in many ways an investigative and forensic exercise - you might want to look at all kinds of evidence such as witness statements about the powerdown event which occured on the weekend prior to 9/11.
You would want to look into the companies which manufacture demolition explosives or thermite, and look for any suspicious purchases, or thefts.
You would want to know exactly what happened in Building 7 during the day of 9/11. You would want to take evidence from literally thousands of people.
This primary investigative/detective work was not pursued by FEMA, NIST or the 9/11 Commission. Why?
Why did they all just take the lead from official statements. Why did they not investigate and look at every angle? Why did they not do their job?
They all worked backwards from a premise which was never questioned. It was never part of their brief to question the Official Story, which was given them as if it were a Papal Decree.
----------------------------------------------------------------
As a skeptic, you are an outsider, you are deprived of 90% of the resources and tools that were available to NIST.
Outsiders have to rely on information in the public domain. They cannot subpeona witnesses, and they can't afford to develop sophisitcated computer models, and run elaborate tests.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Any independent researcher is at an enormous disadvantage when challenging official views. Top level professionals with good standing in the engineering/building industry (which is a global in reach) have to be politically savvy. It is part of their job.
We have not yet seen any skeptical papers from top level professionals. Let's hope that this changes. Let's hope that there are some whistle blowers in establishment, who are prepared to put their reputations on the line.
Building 7 is the best candidate for a detailed and focussed study. Let's hope someone in the engineering field takes a good look at this one issue. There is clearly a prima facie case that Building 7 was taken down with explosives.
It is unlikely, however, that an engineer who presents a paper on the controlled demotition of WTC 7 is going to introduce a radically new argument. The problem is access to all the data, including building plans, and other information which is probably classified due to the fact that many level in WTC 7 were occupied by CIA, FBI and Military Intelligence.
Without access to new information, the best an engineer or architect can do is more or less repeat what Steve Jones or Jim Hoffman have said. As long as that situation continues it seems unlikely that anyone else will want to publish a paper.
----------------------------------------------------------------
It is clear that the FEMA invegators were themselves blocked from getting information they needed to do their job properly. The FEMA report states:
"The performance of WTC 7 is of significant interest because it appears the collapse was due primarily to fire, rather than any impact damage from the collapsing towers."
later it says:
"Currently, there is limited information about the ignition and development of fires at WTC 7, as well as about the specific fuels that may have been involved during the course of the fire."
Why was there "limited information"? Who did they interview? FEMA should have had ample opportunity to talk to many eye witnesses very soon after the disaster. That there was "limited information" is a way of saying that the investigation was gagged.
Would there be more information now, four and a half years later?
It is obvious that the FEMA and NIST reports were massaged into shape by political forces.
It makes a mockery of science.
It also makes a mockery of PHD's and academic qualifications generally. It makes mockery of everything that is good about western civilisation. It is in fact anti-civilisation, a return to medieval dogmatism.
The thugs who post here bashing "CTers" are no better than the Taliban thugs who bash women for not wearing a veil. They are in fact the same type of people. They cling to authority in their weakness, and in their weakness and fear they scapegoat non-conformists.
It is not necessary for the government to pay these people. They are voluntary. They are a product of the system. Just like the Taliban "protectors of the faith".
Signing off,
Hereward.
You just wrote that whole diatribe without one shred of evidence to back up anything you said. You say "It is obvious that the FEMA and NIST reports were massaged into shape by political forces." yet you don't have a memo, whistle blower or anything to buttress this view. Yet ironically you say you don't have all the info the NIST has.
Sorry, but I've been all over the NIST site and there IS enough evidence to support the report. The fire tests are especially telling. Not only is it possible for temperatures to reach 800 degress but they reached 1200 in testing.
http://wtc.nist.gov/media/gallery2.htm#fire
There are to many people involved in the report for a conspiracy not to have leaked out. It's absurd to suggest ever single person who could come out on such a grand conspiracy wouldn't because they fear their jobs. In any large conspiracy their are always people who talk. They talk to the press and in some cases do it as an anonymous source. Many people have come out for less. The WMD coverup is a perfect example where people quit thier jobs in protest. The spying on Americans scandle had a judge quit in protest.
For us to believe the NIST, CIA, FBI, NYC fire department, NYC police department, Media, Silverstin, everyone in the pentagon... As if none of these orgs had liberals who hate Bush in them. Nope, sorry, don't buy it...
What's the matter, Schnooby? Did your internet lawyer inform you that you are full of sh1t? Are you too embarassed to post as da real Schnoob these days? But you can't stay away, so we get spammed by lots of crappy 'guest' posts... your nastiness is so easy to recognize.
QUOTE (hereward+Feb 7 2006, 03:04 AM)
How many professional civil engineers/architects/demolition experts want to express an opinion without having access to the resources and infrastructure possessed by NIST and FEMA?
How many professionals would want to stick out their neck so far?
None, it seems. And it doesn't make any difference whether they are American, Australian, Chinese, Brazilian or Iranian.
Questioning the official theory of the collapses is in many ways an investigative and forensic exercise - you might want to look at all kinds of evidence such as witness statements about the powerdown event which occured on the weekend prior to 9/11.
You would want to look into the companies which manufacture demolition explosives or thermite, and look for any suspicious purchases, or thefts.
You would want to know exactly what happened in Building 7 during the day of 9/11. You would want to take evidence from literally thousands of people.
This primary investigative/detective work was not pursued by FEMA, NIST or the 9/11 Commission. Why?
Why did they all just take the lead from official statements. Why did they not investigate and look at every angle? Why did they not do their job?
They all worked backwards from a premise which was never questioned. It was never part of their brief to question the Official Story, which was given them as if it were a Papal Decree.
----------------------------------------------------------------
As a skeptic, you are an outsider, you are deprived of 90% of the resources and tools that were available to NIST.
Outsiders have to rely on information in the public domain. They cannot subpeona witnesses, and they can't afford to develop sophisitcated computer models, and run elaborate tests.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Any independent researcher is at an enormous disadvantage when challenging official views. Top level professionals with good standing in the engineering/building industry (which is a global in reach) have to be politically savvy. It is part of their job.
We have not yet seen any skeptical papers from top level professionals. Let's hope that this changes. Let's hope that there are some whistle blowers in establishment, who are prepared to put their reputations on the line.
Building 7 is the best candidate for a detailed and focussed study. Let's hope someone in the engineering field takes a good look at this one issue. There is clearly a prima facie case that Building 7 was taken down with explosives.
It is unlikely, however, that an engineer who presents a paper on the controlled demotition of WTC 7 is going to introduce a radically new argument. The problem is access to all the data, including building plans, and other information which is probably classified due to the fact that many level in WTC 7 were occupied by CIA, FBI and Military Intelligence.
Without access to new information, the best an engineer or architect can do is more or less repeat what Steve Jones or Jim Hoffman have said. As long as that situation continues it seems unlikely that anyone else will want to publish a paper.
----------------------------------------------------------------
It is clear that the FEMA invegators were themselves blocked from getting information they needed to do their job properly. The FEMA report states:
"The performance of WTC 7 is of significant interest because it appears the collapse was due primarily to fire, rather than any impact damage from the collapsing towers."
later it says:
"Currently, there is limited information about the ignition and development of fires at WTC 7, as well as about the specific fuels that may have been involved during the course of the fire."
Why was there "limited information"? Who did they interview? FEMA should have had ample opportunity to talk to many eye witnesses very soon after the disaster. That there was "limited information" is a way of saying that the investigation was gagged.
Would there be more information now, four and a half years later?
It is obvious that the FEMA and NIST reports were massaged into shape by political forces.
It makes a mockery of science.
It also makes a mockery of PHD's and academic qualifications generally. It makes mockery of everything that is good about western civilisation. It is in fact anti-civilisation, a return to medieval dogmatism.
The thugs who post here bashing "CTers" are no better than the Taliban thugs who bash women for not wearing a veil. They are in fact the same type of people. They cling to authority in their weakness, and in their weakness and fear they scapegoat non-conformists.
It is not necessary for the government to pay these people. They are voluntary. They are a product of the system. Just like the Taliban "protectors of the faith".
Signing off,
Hereward.
Very well written, succinct, and TO THE POINT.
Thanks Hereward !
Cheers
Foxx
How many professionals would want to stick out their neck so far?
None, it seems. And it doesn't make any difference whether they are American, Australian, Chinese, Brazilian or Iranian.
Questioning the official theory of the collapses is in many ways an investigative and forensic exercise - you might want to look at all kinds of evidence such as witness statements about the powerdown event which occured on the weekend prior to 9/11.
You would want to look into the companies which manufacture demolition explosives or thermite, and look for any suspicious purchases, or thefts.
You would want to know exactly what happened in Building 7 during the day of 9/11. You would want to take evidence from literally thousands of people.
This primary investigative/detective work was not pursued by FEMA, NIST or the 9/11 Commission. Why?
Why did they all just take the lead from official statements. Why did they not investigate and look at every angle? Why did they not do their job?
They all worked backwards from a premise which was never questioned. It was never part of their brief to question the Official Story, which was given them as if it were a Papal Decree.
----------------------------------------------------------------
As a skeptic, you are an outsider, you are deprived of 90% of the resources and tools that were available to NIST.
Outsiders have to rely on information in the public domain. They cannot subpeona witnesses, and they can't afford to develop sophisitcated computer models, and run elaborate tests.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Any independent researcher is at an enormous disadvantage when challenging official views. Top level professionals with good standing in the engineering/building industry (which is a global in reach) have to be politically savvy. It is part of their job.
We have not yet seen any skeptical papers from top level professionals. Let's hope that this changes. Let's hope that there are some whistle blowers in establishment, who are prepared to put their reputations on the line.
Building 7 is the best candidate for a detailed and focussed study. Let's hope someone in the engineering field takes a good look at this one issue. There is clearly a prima facie case that Building 7 was taken down with explosives.
It is unlikely, however, that an engineer who presents a paper on the controlled demotition of WTC 7 is going to introduce a radically new argument. The problem is access to all the data, including building plans, and other information which is probably classified due to the fact that many level in WTC 7 were occupied by CIA, FBI and Military Intelligence.
Without access to new information, the best an engineer or architect can do is more or less repeat what Steve Jones or Jim Hoffman have said. As long as that situation continues it seems unlikely that anyone else will want to publish a paper.
----------------------------------------------------------------
It is clear that the FEMA invegators were themselves blocked from getting information they needed to do their job properly. The FEMA report states:
"The performance of WTC 7 is of significant interest because it appears the collapse was due primarily to fire, rather than any impact damage from the collapsing towers."
later it says:
"Currently, there is limited information about the ignition and development of fires at WTC 7, as well as about the specific fuels that may have been involved during the course of the fire."
Why was there "limited information"? Who did they interview? FEMA should have had ample opportunity to talk to many eye witnesses very soon after the disaster. That there was "limited information" is a way of saying that the investigation was gagged.
Would there be more information now, four and a half years later?
It is obvious that the FEMA and NIST reports were massaged into shape by political forces.
It makes a mockery of science.
It also makes a mockery of PHD's and academic qualifications generally. It makes mockery of everything that is good about western civilisation. It is in fact anti-civilisation, a return to medieval dogmatism.
The thugs who post here bashing "CTers" are no better than the Taliban thugs who bash women for not wearing a veil. They are in fact the same type of people. They cling to authority in their weakness, and in their weakness and fear they scapegoat non-conformists.
It is not necessary for the government to pay these people. They are voluntary. They are a product of the system. Just like the Taliban "protectors of the faith".
Signing off,
Hereward.
Very well written, succinct, and TO THE POINT.
Thanks Hereward !
Cheers
Foxx
QUOTE (newton+Feb 7 2006, 03:25 AM)
okay then, guest clown-spotter.
i'm sorry.
in case you didn't read these physics arguments(of which i have provided MANY more in this thread, including losses of angular momentum in both the tilting 'cap', and in the briefly remaining 'spire', which shouldn't have fallen at all, the lack of 'buckled steel' in the debris pile, the lateral ejection of steel by some kind of 'spring' mechanism, ad nauseum...)
nist did not explain things well.
in fact, despite this, 'we' are forced to refer to their document.
it is nist that has provided the data that says nist's scenario is wild extrapolation and imaginary numbers.
nist says jet fuel didn't cause the collapse. nist SPECULATES that fireproofing was knocked off.quantatively speaking, there is nothing.nist forensically determined that the (actual)steel was exposed to fires NO HOTTER THAN 600 DEGREES.nist determined that typical office contents burn in about a half an hour. nist determined that the jet fuel was NOT RESPONSIBLE for the collapse. nist determined that they better not say anything about tower seven, yet.
nist used finite element computer modelling of fires to reproduce collapse initiation, but were not bothered by reality.
nist FAILED to reproduce the collapse mechanism. if you are trying to find out why the buildings fell, then why didn't they figure out why the buildings fell? twenty million dollars and they can't even figure out that future design standard modifications will need to be substantiated by EXHAUSTIVE study, and
not HALF ARSED SUMMARY study rife with number nudging and foregone conclusions?
did you read it that time, super smart clown spotter?
Did someone say tilting 'cap' momentum loss? Others are watching and reading too, newton. And we don't recall your physics in rebutal when your generalised question was answered with specifically relevant physics. You did not supply any specifically relevant physics in reply, IIRC.
I thought it was hypothesised that the 'cap' was redirected inwards by all the other columns still pulling at the 'cap' while it was rotating and falling down and back into the 'tube'? Where's your physics in rebutal of that 'redirection' hypothesis?
BTW you say NIST "SPECULATES" fireproofing was lost as result of impact. Are you implying it is not a reasonable conclusion in the circumstances of the 9/11 plane crashes into the towers? Do you have any specifically relevant physics argument that would rebut this reasonable conclusion by NIST, or by anyone else at Physorg even?
KISS
i'm sorry.
in case you didn't read these physics arguments(of which i have provided MANY more in this thread, including losses of angular momentum in both the tilting 'cap', and in the briefly remaining 'spire', which shouldn't have fallen at all, the lack of 'buckled steel' in the debris pile, the lateral ejection of steel by some kind of 'spring' mechanism, ad nauseum...)
nist did not explain things well.
in fact, despite this, 'we' are forced to refer to their document.
it is nist that has provided the data that says nist's scenario is wild extrapolation and imaginary numbers.
nist says jet fuel didn't cause the collapse. nist SPECULATES that fireproofing was knocked off.quantatively speaking, there is nothing.nist forensically determined that the (actual)steel was exposed to fires NO HOTTER THAN 600 DEGREES.nist determined that typical office contents burn in about a half an hour. nist determined that the jet fuel was NOT RESPONSIBLE for the collapse. nist determined that they better not say anything about tower seven, yet.
nist used finite element computer modelling of fires to reproduce collapse initiation, but were not bothered by reality.
nist FAILED to reproduce the collapse mechanism. if you are trying to find out why the buildings fell, then why didn't they figure out why the buildings fell? twenty million dollars and they can't even figure out that future design standard modifications will need to be substantiated by EXHAUSTIVE study, and
not HALF ARSED SUMMARY study rife with number nudging and foregone conclusions?
did you read it that time, super smart clown spotter?
Did someone say tilting 'cap' momentum loss? Others are watching and reading too, newton. And we don't recall your physics in rebutal when your generalised question was answered with specifically relevant physics. You did not supply any specifically relevant physics in reply, IIRC.
I thought it was hypothesised that the 'cap' was redirected inwards by all the other columns still pulling at the 'cap' while it was rotating and falling down and back into the 'tube'? Where's your physics in rebutal of that 'redirection' hypothesis?
BTW you say NIST "SPECULATES" fireproofing was lost as result of impact. Are you implying it is not a reasonable conclusion in the circumstances of the 9/11 plane crashes into the towers? Do you have any specifically relevant physics argument that would rebut this reasonable conclusion by NIST, or by anyone else at Physorg even?
KISS
for those interested in physics, lol! ......rick siegel has posted steven jones seminar in audio format with slides.
here
here
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 6 2006, 03:09 AM)
Hmmm... seems like Yesitdid has called for back-ups from Apollo Hoax.com. These people consider themselves 'professional' de-bunkers of 'myths'. Too bad they didn't focus more attention on the original gov't FEMA Fairy Tale. They would have found a goldmine to debunk. Sorry AHers, the 'Guardian' already beat you to it on that 'official' story.
Numerous 'associates' signed into the thread explaining their 'technical backgrounds'...I.E -
Fnord Fred
echnaton
Bob B.
frenat
gwiz
Al Johnson
Jay Utah
PhantomWolf
sts60
craiglamson
nomuse
PeterB
{and YID / 'Yesitdid' ... under the name of 'jaydeehess' }
Your paranoia is showing again Foxx, it was metamars who was posting again on AH and several times posted a link to this very thread.
I ceratinly made no attempt to get anyone to post here.
lenbrazil is his own man.
Numerous 'associates' signed into the thread explaining their 'technical backgrounds'...I.E -
Fnord Fred
echnaton
Bob B.
frenat
gwiz
Al Johnson
Jay Utah
PhantomWolf
sts60
craiglamson
nomuse
PeterB
{and YID / 'Yesitdid' ... under the name of 'jaydeehess' }
Your paranoia is showing again Foxx, it was metamars who was posting again on AH and several times posted a link to this very thread.
I ceratinly made no attempt to get anyone to post here.
lenbrazil is his own man.
QUOTE (KISS+Feb 7 2006, 03:50 AM)
Others are watching and reading too, newton.
i certainly hope so. and i hope this thread can stand as a good history lesson in the revolution of pure information.
praise decentral!
i certainly hope so. and i hope this thread can stand as a good history lesson in the revolution of pure information.
praise decentral!
QUOTE (JamesX+Feb 7 2006, 03:32 AM)
What's the matter, Schnooby? Did your internet lawyer inform you that you are full of sh1t? Are you too embarassed to post as da real Schnoob these days? But you can't stay away, so we get spammed by lots of crappy 'guest' posts... your nastiness is so easy to recognize.
Another galdur/JamesX dump! Says it all.
Sorry to whoever made up that catchy saying in the first place. But I replaced the word 'post' with the word 'dump' because it says it even better. Don't it? Hiya galdur/JamesX! When's your next 'dump'? Don't forget to change your diapers after!
name.
Another galdur/JamesX dump! Says it all.
Sorry to whoever made up that catchy saying in the first place. But I replaced the word 'post' with the word 'dump' because it says it even better. Don't it? Hiya galdur/JamesX! When's your next 'dump'? Don't forget to change your diapers after!
name.
QUOTE (name.+Feb 7 2006, 04:01 AM)
QUOTE (JamesX+Feb 7 2006, 03:32 AM)
What's the matter, Schnooby? Did your internet lawyer inform you that you are full of sh1t? Are you too embarassed to post as da real Schnoob these days? But you can't stay away, so we get spammed by lots of crappy 'guest' posts... your nastiness is so easy to recognize.
Another galdur/JamesX dump! Says it all.
Sorry to whoever made up that catchy saying in the first place. But I replaced the word 'post' with the word 'dump' because it says it even better. Don't it? Hiya galdur/JamesX! When's your next 'dump'? Don't forget to change your diapers after!
name.
More anal fixations from the Schneib...
How's the lawsuit coming ???
Another galdur/JamesX dump! Says it all.
Sorry to whoever made up that catchy saying in the first place. But I replaced the word 'post' with the word 'dump' because it says it even better. Don't it? Hiya galdur/JamesX! When's your next 'dump'? Don't forget to change your diapers after!
name.
More anal fixations from the Schneib...
How's the lawsuit coming ???
QUOTE (newton+Feb 7 2006, 03:57 AM)
QUOTE (KISS+Feb 7 2006, 03:50 AM)
Others are watching and reading too, newton.
i certainly hope so. and i hope this thread can stand as a good history lesson in the revolution of pure information.
praise decentral!
Hahaha! Revolution of pure stoopidity more like! What a pretentious and self-righteous maroon! You really ARE that inconsequential in the greater human story, aren't you, PSEUDO newton (thanks Guest! I'll use this again in future posts if you don't mind!).
You still haven't supplied your haha physics argument in rebutal of that person who pointed out that if the Feb 75 fires were as HOT as Sentinel or whoever CT idiot claimed, then the 9/11 fires must have been just as hot and probably HOTTER because there was NO FIREFIGHTING and there was a planeload of Aluminum and jet fuel added to it.
And what about the 'fireproofing' loss? Where is your rebutal to THAT?
You are a sorry comment on the level of honesty on this planet, newton.
How about proving me and everybody at Physorg wrong?
Present YOUR REBUTAL to these reasonable conclusions.
Go ON. What's stopping you? Could it be you're a fraud and a waster?
No physics in that bullet-proof idiot dome?
The laughing at you will stop as soon as you REBUT all these reasonable conclusions, with PHYSICS________and not more of your hilarious 'intellectual clown' act.
KISS
i certainly hope so. and i hope this thread can stand as a good history lesson in the revolution of pure information.
praise decentral!
Hahaha! Revolution of pure stoopidity more like! What a pretentious and self-righteous maroon! You really ARE that inconsequential in the greater human story, aren't you, PSEUDO newton (thanks Guest! I'll use this again in future posts if you don't mind!).
You still haven't supplied your haha physics argument in rebutal of that person who pointed out that if the Feb 75 fires were as HOT as Sentinel or whoever CT idiot claimed, then the 9/11 fires must have been just as hot and probably HOTTER because there was NO FIREFIGHTING and there was a planeload of Aluminum and jet fuel added to it.
And what about the 'fireproofing' loss? Where is your rebutal to THAT?
You are a sorry comment on the level of honesty on this planet, newton.
How about proving me and everybody at Physorg wrong?
Present YOUR REBUTAL to these reasonable conclusions.
Go ON. What's stopping you? Could it be you're a fraud and a waster?
No physics in that bullet-proof idiot dome?
The laughing at you will stop as soon as you REBUT all these reasonable conclusions, with PHYSICS________and not more of your hilarious 'intellectual clown' act.
KISS
Page 126 of the report says they replicated a normal office fire and found temperatures ranged from 800 - 1,100 degrees C. That's C and not F.
http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1CollapseofTowers.pdf
http://wtc.nist.gov/media/gallery2.htm#fire
http://mfile.akamai.com/16062/rm/natlinsti...C_firetest1.ram
http://wtc.nist.gov/media/broll_anim_links.htm
http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1CollapseofTowers.pdf
http://wtc.nist.gov/media/gallery2.htm#fire
http://mfile.akamai.com/16062/rm/natlinsti...C_firetest1.ram
http://wtc.nist.gov/media/broll_anim_links.htm
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 7 2006, 04:08 AM)
QUOTE (name.+Feb 7 2006, 04:01 AM)
QUOTE (JamesX+Feb 7 2006, 03:32 AM)
What's the matter, Schnooby? Did your internet lawyer inform you that you are full of sh1t? Are you too embarassed to post as da real Schnoob these days? But you can't stay away, so we get spammed by lots of crappy 'guest' posts... your nastiness is so easy to recognize.
Another galdur/JamesX dump! Says it all.
Sorry to whoever made up that catchy saying in the first place. But I replaced the word 'post' with the word 'dump' because it says it even better. Don't it? Hiya galdur/JamesX! When's your next 'dump'? Don't forget to change your diapers after!
name.
More anal fixations from the Schneib...
How's the lawsuit coming ???
Greetings to you too, Foxx. What is this unhealthy obsession with the Schneib...? Are you so flummoxed that you can't tell when you're NOT even speaking with him? Bad sign, Foxx fur. That's how it begins, you know____PARANOIA. But you sounds like you're probably ahead of the game there, Foxx fur. Look out!_____there's ANOTHER the Schneib_____and another and another_____oh mercy, will it never end? How many the Shcneibs ARE there that post in PhysorgForums? Must be HUNDREDS and THOUSANDS of em! Get straight you idiot. I'm not this the Schneib...your fixating on. And don't cotton onto me like that galdur and JamesX want to cotton onto you. You know? They're right here. You ARE an impotent loser and unfunny clown. Make us laugh some more!
name.
Another galdur/JamesX dump! Says it all.
Sorry to whoever made up that catchy saying in the first place. But I replaced the word 'post' with the word 'dump' because it says it even better. Don't it? Hiya galdur/JamesX! When's your next 'dump'? Don't forget to change your diapers after!
name.
More anal fixations from the Schneib...
How's the lawsuit coming ???
Greetings to you too, Foxx. What is this unhealthy obsession with the Schneib...? Are you so flummoxed that you can't tell when you're NOT even speaking with him? Bad sign, Foxx fur. That's how it begins, you know____PARANOIA. But you sounds like you're probably ahead of the game there, Foxx fur. Look out!_____there's ANOTHER the Schneib_____and another and another_____oh mercy, will it never end? How many the Shcneibs ARE there that post in PhysorgForums? Must be HUNDREDS and THOUSANDS of em! Get straight you idiot. I'm not this the Schneib...your fixating on. And don't cotton onto me like that galdur and JamesX want to cotton onto you. You know? They're right here. You ARE an impotent loser and unfunny clown. Make us laugh some more!
name.
QUOTE (name.+Feb 7 2006, 04:39 AM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 7 2006, 04:08 AM)
QUOTE (name.+Feb 7 2006, 04:01 AM)
QUOTE (JamesX+Feb 7 2006, 03:32 AM)
What's the matter, Schnooby? Did your internet lawyer inform you that you are full of sh1t? Are you too embarassed to post as da real Schnoob these days? But you can't stay away, so we get spammed by lots of crappy 'guest' posts... your nastiness is so easy to recognize.
Another galdur/JamesX dump! Says it all.
Sorry to whoever made up that catchy saying in the first place. But I replaced the word 'post' with the word 'dump' because it says it even better. Don't it? Hiya galdur/JamesX! When's your next 'dump'? Don't forget to change your diapers after!
name.
More anal fixations from the Schneib...
How's the lawsuit coming ???
Greetings to you too, Foxx. What is this unhealthy obsession with the Schneib...? Are you so flummoxed that you can't tell when you're NOT even speaking with him? Bad sign, Foxx fur. That's how it begins, you know____PARANOIA. But you sounds like you're probably ahead of the game there, Foxx fur. Look out!_____there's ANOTHER the Schneib_____and another and another_____oh mercy, will it never end? How many the Shcneibs ARE there that post in PhysorgForums? Must be HUNDREDS and THOUSANDS of em! Get straight you idiot. I'm not this the Schneib...your fixating on. And don't cotton onto me like that galdur and JamesX want to cotton onto you. You know? They're right here. You ARE an impotent loser and unfunny clown. Make us laugh some more!
name.
I think Da Schneib left an impression on him so bad he sleeps dreaming of him. I think (x) and Faux want a three way. I wouldn't touch that with a core column.
But I think (x) [<-A$$ clown of C.L.O.W.N., Clueless Losers Obsessed With Nonsense] has it bad for Schneib. About 99.9% of his posts are directed toward him. What did he do to him? As far as I can tell he came here just for Schneib!
That's your problem, you're been watching to many movies. And while you play X-files in this virtual sandbox you're missing an imporant fact. (As usual) I post evidence the administration has conspired to misled us into war. I'm not just pulling it out of my A$$ like you CTers are. Would you like to see it again...
That's your problem, you're been watching to many movies. And while you play X-files in this virtual sandbox you're missing an imporant fact. (As usual) I post evidence the administration has conspired to misled us into war. I'm not just pulling it out of my A$$ like you CTers are. Would you like to see it again...
b]Thomas Packard acting FBI director[/b]: Summer before 9/11 Ashcroft told him he didn’t want to hear anything more about terrorist threats.
Larry Johnson former counter terrorism CIA: Rumsfeld set up special office to link Iraq and Al Qaeda Cherry picking Intel: Evidence is sent back saying “That’s garbage, that’s misleading, that misrepresents” then they would take the same brief to the vice president or one even worse.
Robert Baer: Cheney pushed CIA, Cheney said “Everybody knows Saddam has weapons of mass destruction, tell us what you know, What’s your best stuff?..”
Downing Street Memo says Bush wanted to remove Saddam though military action. “Evidence fixed around the policy”
Rice, Rove, Karen Hughes, Cheney have weekly closed door meetings on how to convince the american people.
John McLaughlin CIA deputy director: “We did not clear that particular [Niger] speech”… Tenets “Slam dunk” does not mean what the media thinks it means.
Michael Scheuer: Intel did not matter. We were going to war / Tenet researched 10 years worth of documents and found no connection to Al Qaeda. Tenet tells Bush / Administration yet administration continues to suggest connection.
Who is ‘Joe T’ and why was he the point man for analyzing nuclear weapon intel.
Gregory Thielmann State Dept intelligence: More and more people said intel on tubes were no good for a nuclear weapon. Official leak saying “Mushroom Cloud” misrepresents the intelligence community disagreement. Administration continues “No doubt” he has WMD. Tenet defends erroneous evidence while others in the CIA voice doubts. State department issues strong and lengthy decent. Niger uranium purchase “Highly Dubious”
Rand Baers National Security Council Resigns white house post and works against Bush “This is not peculiar of this white house. Pick a policy, go to the
Intelligence agencies, get your talking points”
CIA intel notes critical gaps in the evidence because of questionable reliability of many sources,
For the first time before a modern war Bush did not ask for National Intelligence Estimate. Congress demands it. NIE said Saddam not a threat.
White house Iraq group gives only evidence which supports policy while down playing decent.
Last minute dispute over Niger speech.
Tenet and Powell argue about intel.
Carl Ford Asst Sec of State, Intelligence: “This is all we got? And were making these firm judgments?
Powell not told about Curveball. Curveball was never debriefed by the CIA.
Col. Laurence Wilkerson: Evidence brought to the UN “It was anything but an intelligence document. It was a Chinese menu where you can pick and choose what you want”
A day before Powell’s UN speech a CIA skeptic had warned Curve Ball is a lair. A superior sends an E-mail reply saying “This wars going to happen regardless, the powers that be probably aren’t interested whither Curve ball knows what hes talking about.”
Powell’s speech riddled with misleading allegations. Not right out lies but worded in such a way as to mislead.
Scott Ritter ex UNSCUM weapon inspector: The evidence for war is not there. He goes on just about every TV station trying to stop the war.
Richard Clarke: Bush wanted to connect Iraq and 9/11.
Gen Clark: People in the pentagon told him Bush was going to war no matter what.
I don't pull crap out of my a$$ and say it's gold like you do. I can back up my statements. So no matter how many times you try and label me a shill that fact wont go away. It wont go away tomorrow or the day after. You have to DEAL with it.
Even if you prove the building fell due to bombs. (Yeah right) you still don't have a shred of evidence in more than 300 posts that the government did it do you. But the fact remains you still don't have proof the building fell from controlled demolition. That's another fact that wont go away tomorrow or the day after. You have to DEAL with it.
The only way you have dealt with it to date is attacking the messenger. A tactic only the most synatically challenged would have trouble deciphering.
It figures you would believe someone who refused to confirm who they are. As long as he subscribes to your world view right... Sad...
Barney Fife drew stupid conclutions then acted on them. He also thought he knew everything but was always wrong. If anyone belongs in Mayberry it's you.
Just look at the way I handled Paul. At first he sounded like he was against the CTers but I still asked for proof of who he was. I don't believe anyone, even people on my side. Now contrast that with your egerness to fall all over this "Paul's" feet now that you know hes a CTer. You're so gullible you'd believe your mother is a double agent if it fit your world view.
Paranoia runs rampant in physorg.
Hi Paul. Welcome to our forum, such that it is. Since your anticipated arrival, the unregistered storm troopers have been amassing. Hitting you in the head with a 2x4 is just there way of saying, hi!
You would welcome liars into your home with open arms? Here's where someone has shown your 'friend' up to be a THREE TIMES liar in one post.....
Another galdur/JamesX dump! Says it all.
Sorry to whoever made up that catchy saying in the first place. But I replaced the word 'post' with the word 'dump' because it says it even better. Don't it? Hiya galdur/JamesX! When's your next 'dump'? Don't forget to change your diapers after!
name.
More anal fixations from the Schneib...
How's the lawsuit coming ???
Greetings to you too, Foxx. What is this unhealthy obsession with the Schneib...? Are you so flummoxed that you can't tell when you're NOT even speaking with him? Bad sign, Foxx fur. That's how it begins, you know____PARANOIA. But you sounds like you're probably ahead of the game there, Foxx fur. Look out!_____there's ANOTHER the Schneib_____and another and another_____oh mercy, will it never end? How many the Shcneibs ARE there that post in PhysorgForums? Must be HUNDREDS and THOUSANDS of em! Get straight you idiot. I'm not this the Schneib...your fixating on. And don't cotton onto me like that galdur and JamesX want to cotton onto you. You know? They're right here. You ARE an impotent loser and unfunny clown. Make us laugh some more!
name.
I think Da Schneib left an impression on him so bad he sleeps dreaming of him. I think (x) and Faux want a three way. I wouldn't touch that with a core column.
But I think (x) [<-A$$ clown of C.L.O.W.N., Clueless Losers Obsessed With Nonsense] has it bad for Schneib. About 99.9% of his posts are directed toward him. What did he do to him? As far as I can tell he came here just for Schneib!
You're not fooling anyone, Schnoob.
QUOTE (JamesX+Feb 7 2006, 05:04 AM)
You're not fooling anyone, Schnoob.
Congratulations JamesX! With that umpteenth 'schnoob' post you have won a prize! You have been inducted into the Foxx Groupwank Academy. All his 'favorites' are there already. Like galdur the fawning; newton the driveling and the rest of his totally clueless entourage. For being so faithful to the 'schnoob' motif in your posts, we now present you with this CLOWN FACE OF YOUR VERY OWN so you won't have to borrow your idiot expressions from your Clown Academy Confrers any more! Won't that be great? You can wear your OWN SILLY GRIN with pride ALL THE TIME! Good show, JamesX. You've done Foxx and the gang proud! But watch that first step when getting out of the company clown car. It's a lulu!
Congratulations JamesX! With that umpteenth 'schnoob' post you have won a prize! You have been inducted into the Foxx Groupwank Academy. All his 'favorites' are there already. Like galdur the fawning; newton the driveling and the rest of his totally clueless entourage. For being so faithful to the 'schnoob' motif in your posts, we now present you with this CLOWN FACE OF YOUR VERY OWN so you won't have to borrow your idiot expressions from your Clown Academy Confrers any more! Won't that be great? You can wear your OWN SILLY GRIN with pride ALL THE TIME! Good show, JamesX. You've done Foxx and the gang proud! But watch that first step when getting out of the company clown car. It's a lulu!
So how is the lawsuit coming along?
Quote; Common Sense
Bush is undoubtedly guilty of negligent homicide but that's not the worse crime hes committed. He lied us into war in a conspiracy which becomes more clear everyday as more and more high level officials and memos come out pointing in that direction. You would think conspiracy theorist who are proud enough to join a conspiracy forum would attack the one conspiracy there is ample evidence for. But I guess this isn't about holding Bush accountable. This is about who can invent the craziest fair tale and convince the most people of it.
They help Rove every day they convince some fool to follow in their footsteps.
We've all seen those "dark" Hollywood movies where an undercover agent goes in deep for a bust. To do this successfully, the group he or she is infiltrating must accept the deception. Is that the tactic here? Overt admissions of contempt for the administration. It could never off-set the invective that spews from your posts. You are channeling your pathologies into this forum. Those "Barney Fife" images that you post are projections of yourself. Arthur's the "Official" sheriff here and you're his loose cannon, over-reaching, screw-up deputy. Hitler found some of his best "brown shirts" in mental institutions.
Proud conspiracy theorists, while covered in your verbal vomit, should just wipe their eyes and join your crusade of holding bush accountable by halting the informal investigations into 911.
911 investigations helps Rove?
so,
RICO Act helps organized crime?
The man who would prove NIST wrong ; another reversed, ego-centric obsession of yours. Find the missing linkage and then bask in the spotlight of notoriety. Personally, anyone who successfully connects the dots should consider liquidating all assets and going underground.
Hi Paul. Welcome to our forum, such that it is. Since your anticipated arrival, the unregistered storm troopers have been amassing. Hitting you in the head with a 2x4 is just there way of saying, hi!
Bush is undoubtedly guilty of negligent homicide but that's not the worse crime hes committed. He lied us into war in a conspiracy which becomes more clear everyday as more and more high level officials and memos come out pointing in that direction. You would think conspiracy theorist who are proud enough to join a conspiracy forum would attack the one conspiracy there is ample evidence for. But I guess this isn't about holding Bush accountable. This is about who can invent the craziest fair tale and convince the most people of it.
They help Rove every day they convince some fool to follow in their footsteps.
We've all seen those "dark" Hollywood movies where an undercover agent goes in deep for a bust. To do this successfully, the group he or she is infiltrating must accept the deception. Is that the tactic here? Overt admissions of contempt for the administration. It could never off-set the invective that spews from your posts. You are channeling your pathologies into this forum. Those "Barney Fife" images that you post are projections of yourself. Arthur's the "Official" sheriff here and you're his loose cannon, over-reaching, screw-up deputy. Hitler found some of his best "brown shirts" in mental institutions.
Proud conspiracy theorists, while covered in your verbal vomit, should just wipe their eyes and join your crusade of holding bush accountable by halting the informal investigations into 911.
911 investigations helps Rove?
so,
RICO Act helps organized crime?
The man who would prove NIST wrong ; another reversed, ego-centric obsession of yours. Find the missing linkage and then bask in the spotlight of notoriety. Personally, anyone who successfully connects the dots should consider liquidating all assets and going underground.
Hi Paul. Welcome to our forum, such that it is. Since your anticipated arrival, the unregistered storm troopers have been amassing. Hitting you in the head with a 2x4 is just there way of saying, hi!
CNN : Posted Feb 03, 2006...
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/02/03...t.ap/index.html
Pentagon unveils 21st Century Strategy
Washington (AP) -- The Pentagon Friday announced plans to significantly increase special operations forces, expand psychological warfare and develop a program to counter biological terrorism as part of a new broad-based military strategy for the 21st century.
The plan comes three days before President Bush sends Congress a 2007 budget that seeks a nearly 5 percent increase in Defense Department spending, to $439.3 billion, with significantly more for weapons programs, according to senior Pentagon officials and documents obtained by The Associated Press.
{ Gee, $439 Billion... as opposed to $20 Million to investigate the causes for such expenditures ...(i.e. - the 9/11 Northwoods Psyopts event) !!!... WHO PROFITS ??? - Let me guess...
some wacko living in a cave? }
Under the long-range plan, called the Quadrennial Defense Review, the Pentagon will increase special operations forces by 15 percent, including the establishment for the first time of a Marine Corps commando unit. And there will be a one-third increase -- or a jump of 3,700 -- in 'troops' assigned to psychological warfare and civil affairs units...
{psychological warfare... civil affairs... neo-con statements that... "CTers are no better than terrorists - they are aiding & abetting the enemy"...
Yawn, I wonder where this info-war is being fought?
More info here...
http://www.hasslberger.com/about/about/awa/awa_6.htm
count the # of methods used by Schneiby (and 'friends') in the above list... Amazing !!!
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB177/index.htm
The Roadmap presents as one of its key assumptions the importance of Psychological Operations (PSYOP), particularly in wartime: "Effectively communicating U.S. Government (USG) capabilities and intentions is an important means of combating the plans of our adversaries.
'Adversaries' such as 'terrorists' disguised as 'Conspiracy Theorists' }
The document, more than a year in the making, refers to the terrorism fight as the Long War...
Welcome to the info-wars, and the new troops deployed in the psyopts game.
How's the lawsuit coming, Schneiby ???
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/02/03...t.ap/index.html
QUOTE
Pentagon unveils 21st Century Strategy
Washington (AP) -- The Pentagon Friday announced plans to significantly increase special operations forces, expand psychological warfare and develop a program to counter biological terrorism as part of a new broad-based military strategy for the 21st century.
The plan comes three days before President Bush sends Congress a 2007 budget that seeks a nearly 5 percent increase in Defense Department spending, to $439.3 billion, with significantly more for weapons programs, according to senior Pentagon officials and documents obtained by The Associated Press.
{ Gee, $439 Billion... as opposed to $20 Million to investigate the causes for such expenditures ...(i.e. - the 9/11 Northwoods Psyopts event) !!!... WHO PROFITS ??? - Let me guess...
some wacko living in a cave? }
Under the long-range plan, called the Quadrennial Defense Review, the Pentagon will increase special operations forces by 15 percent, including the establishment for the first time of a Marine Corps commando unit. And there will be a one-third increase -- or a jump of 3,700 -- in 'troops' assigned to psychological warfare and civil affairs units...
{psychological warfare... civil affairs... neo-con statements that... "CTers are no better than terrorists - they are aiding & abetting the enemy"...
Yawn, I wonder where this info-war is being fought?
More info here...
http://www.hasslberger.com/about/about/awa/awa_6.htm
count the # of methods used by Schneiby (and 'friends') in the above list... Amazing !!!
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB177/index.htm
The Roadmap presents as one of its key assumptions the importance of Psychological Operations (PSYOP), particularly in wartime: "Effectively communicating U.S. Government (USG) capabilities and intentions is an important means of combating the plans of our adversaries.
'Adversaries' such as 'terrorists' disguised as 'Conspiracy Theorists' }
The document, more than a year in the making, refers to the terrorism fight as the Long War...
Welcome to the info-wars, and the new troops deployed in the psyopts game.
How's the lawsuit coming, Schneiby ???
QUOTE (JamesX+Feb 7 2006, 05:33 AM)
So how is the lawsuit coming along?
Here at Physorg we're trying to figure out if your type of stupidity is hereditary or was attained after much effort on your part. My vote is for both in your case. Born clueless, will die clueless and learned to be clueless as a hobby. Great stuff you UFO/CT nuts are made of. Self-made men I'd say. HAS to be 'men', because NO woman could be as dumb as you idiots seem to be. Don't you have a woman to make up for your lack? In the brain department, that is. JamesX. Another the Scneib fixated Foxx fur hair. No woman in your life, obviously. Otherwise she'd have knocked some sense into you before you got mixed up with the UFO/CT crowd. Too bad. Too late. For JamesX. Have you found your IQ yet, down there in the low 20's?
Let me save you some time, "Einstein"---------
Repeat from JamesX: "So how is the law suit coming along?"
There, now you have made your Foxx-impressing quota of posting idiocy for today, you can go out and play with the other 2 year olds! Don't eat anything off the ground, JamesX....it could be another 'dump' from a UFO/CT clown who was there before you!
Here at Physorg we're trying to figure out if your type of stupidity is hereditary or was attained after much effort on your part. My vote is for both in your case. Born clueless, will die clueless and learned to be clueless as a hobby. Great stuff you UFO/CT nuts are made of. Self-made men I'd say. HAS to be 'men', because NO woman could be as dumb as you idiots seem to be. Don't you have a woman to make up for your lack? In the brain department, that is. JamesX. Another the Scneib fixated Foxx fur hair. No woman in your life, obviously. Otherwise she'd have knocked some sense into you before you got mixed up with the UFO/CT crowd. Too bad. Too late. For JamesX. Have you found your IQ yet, down there in the low 20's?
Let me save you some time, "Einstein"---------
Repeat from JamesX: "So how is the law suit coming along?"
There, now you have made your Foxx-impressing quota of posting idiocy for today, you can go out and play with the other 2 year olds! Don't eat anything off the ground, JamesX....it could be another 'dump' from a UFO/CT clown who was there before you!
newton,
Now you are being dishonest, taking a page from Foxx's playbook.
NIST made NO SUCH STATEMENT.
If you are going to quote from the NIST document at least be accurate and put the info in context.
And you wonder why CT'ers are ignored?
Arthur
Now you are being dishonest, taking a page from Foxx's playbook.
QUOTE
nist forensically determined that the (actual)steel was exposed to fires NO HOTTER THAN 600 DEGREES.
NIST made NO SUCH STATEMENT.
If you are going to quote from the NIST document at least be accurate and put the info in context.
And you wonder why CT'ers are ignored?
Arthur
QUOTE
We've all seen those "dark" Hollywood movies where an undercover agent goes in deep for a bust. To do this successfully, the group he or she is infiltrating must accept the deception. Is that the tactic here? Overt admissions of contempt for the administration. It could never off-set the invective that spews from your posts.
That's your problem, you're been watching to many movies. And while you play X-files in this virtual sandbox you're missing an imporant fact. (As usual) I post evidence the administration has conspired to misled us into war. I'm not just pulling it out of my A$$ like you CTers are. Would you like to see it again...
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| We've all seen those "dark" Hollywood movies where an undercover agent goes in deep for a bust. To do this successfully, the group he or she is infiltrating must accept the deception. Is that the tactic here? Overt admissions of contempt for the administration. It could never off-set the invective that spews from your posts. |
That's your problem, you're been watching to many movies. And while you play X-files in this virtual sandbox you're missing an imporant fact. (As usual) I post evidence the administration has conspired to misled us into war. I'm not just pulling it out of my A$$ like you CTers are. Would you like to see it again...
b]Thomas Packard acting FBI director[/b]: Summer before 9/11 Ashcroft told him he didn’t want to hear anything more about terrorist threats.
Larry Johnson former counter terrorism CIA: Rumsfeld set up special office to link Iraq and Al Qaeda Cherry picking Intel: Evidence is sent back saying “That’s garbage, that’s misleading, that misrepresents” then they would take the same brief to the vice president or one even worse.
Robert Baer: Cheney pushed CIA, Cheney said “Everybody knows Saddam has weapons of mass destruction, tell us what you know, What’s your best stuff?..”
Downing Street Memo says Bush wanted to remove Saddam though military action. “Evidence fixed around the policy”
Rice, Rove, Karen Hughes, Cheney have weekly closed door meetings on how to convince the american people.
John McLaughlin CIA deputy director: “We did not clear that particular [Niger] speech”… Tenets “Slam dunk” does not mean what the media thinks it means.
Michael Scheuer: Intel did not matter. We were going to war / Tenet researched 10 years worth of documents and found no connection to Al Qaeda. Tenet tells Bush / Administration yet administration continues to suggest connection.
Who is ‘Joe T’ and why was he the point man for analyzing nuclear weapon intel.
Gregory Thielmann State Dept intelligence: More and more people said intel on tubes were no good for a nuclear weapon. Official leak saying “Mushroom Cloud” misrepresents the intelligence community disagreement. Administration continues “No doubt” he has WMD. Tenet defends erroneous evidence while others in the CIA voice doubts. State department issues strong and lengthy decent. Niger uranium purchase “Highly Dubious”
Rand Baers National Security Council Resigns white house post and works against Bush “This is not peculiar of this white house. Pick a policy, go to the
Intelligence agencies, get your talking points”
CIA intel notes critical gaps in the evidence because of questionable reliability of many sources,
For the first time before a modern war Bush did not ask for National Intelligence Estimate. Congress demands it. NIE said Saddam not a threat.
White house Iraq group gives only evidence which supports policy while down playing decent.
Last minute dispute over Niger speech.
Tenet and Powell argue about intel.
Carl Ford Asst Sec of State, Intelligence: “This is all we got? And were making these firm judgments?
Powell not told about Curveball. Curveball was never debriefed by the CIA.
Col. Laurence Wilkerson: Evidence brought to the UN “It was anything but an intelligence document. It was a Chinese menu where you can pick and choose what you want”
A day before Powell’s UN speech a CIA skeptic had warned Curve Ball is a lair. A superior sends an E-mail reply saying “This wars going to happen regardless, the powers that be probably aren’t interested whither Curve ball knows what hes talking about.”
Powell’s speech riddled with misleading allegations. Not right out lies but worded in such a way as to mislead.
Scott Ritter ex UNSCUM weapon inspector: The evidence for war is not there. He goes on just about every TV station trying to stop the war.
Richard Clarke: Bush wanted to connect Iraq and 9/11.
Gen Clark: People in the pentagon told him Bush was going to war no matter what.
I don't pull crap out of my a$$ and say it's gold like you do. I can back up my statements. So no matter how many times you try and label me a shill that fact wont go away. It wont go away tomorrow or the day after. You have to DEAL with it.
Even if you prove the building fell due to bombs. (Yeah right) you still don't have a shred of evidence in more than 300 posts that the government did it do you. But the fact remains you still don't have proof the building fell from controlled demolition. That's another fact that wont go away tomorrow or the day after. You have to DEAL with it.
The only way you have dealt with it to date is attacking the messenger. A tactic only the most synatically challenged would have trouble deciphering.
It figures you would believe someone who refused to confirm who they are. As long as he subscribes to your world view right... Sad...
Barney Fife drew stupid conclutions then acted on them. He also thought he knew everything but was always wrong. If anyone belongs in Mayberry it's you.
Just look at the way I handled Paul. At first he sounded like he was against the CTers but I still asked for proof of who he was. I don't believe anyone, even people on my side. Now contrast that with your egerness to fall all over this "Paul's" feet now that you know hes a CTer. You're so gullible you'd believe your mother is a double agent if it fit your world view.
Paranoia runs rampant in physorg.
QUOTE (zoktoberfest+Feb 7 2006, 05:36 AM)
Hi Paul. Welcome to our forum, such that it is. Since your anticipated arrival, the unregistered storm troopers have been amassing. Hitting you in the head with a 2x4 is just there way of saying, hi!
You would welcome liars into your home with open arms? Here's where someone has shown your 'friend' up to be a THREE TIMES liar in one post.....
QUOTE (Guest+Feb 7 2006, 12:28 AM)
QUOTE (Sentinel+Feb 6 2006, 11:47 PM)
On Feb 13 1975 there was a fire in the north tower that burned much hoter than the fire on 911. The fire was bloweing out the windows on six floors and 30 firemen were taken to the hospital for heat and smoke exaustion. There was no ventilation and no sprinkler system and the fire went to 3 alarms. There was a calll for an investiagtion on why the buildings were not to code.
So the fires could not have resulted in the collapse.
If JPF4 Fuel is simular to kerosene then why are'nt there more kerosene heater fires in private home even more why are'nt there more fires because of the plastic coverins around many of the makes on kerosene heaters?
Strength and Honor
Sentinel
You have just proved you are nothing but another UFO/CT conspiracy freak, or another scam artist selling to the dumb clucks who buy your crap and pay up like good little idotic gullible sheep with more money for you fleece them out of than they have brains to think with.
Research into fires caused by improperly maintained or faulty home kerosene heaters will tell that you are bullsh*tting. By improperly maintained or faulty it means that the kerosene in the reservoir is made hot and the vapours allowed to mix with enough air before controlled burning off the 'wick' surfaces where it is designed to burn. So there WERE MANY such fires around the world before design changes made 'maintenance' and premature mixing/ignition a 'non issue'.
So in the best traditions of malicious and/or ignorant UFO/CT conspiracy monger, you lied your head off there.
And if the fires on Feb 13, 1975 on six floors were burning 'much hotter' like you say, despite the firemen's efforts, then WHAT were the fires 'burning'? Could it be all that OFICE FURNITURE, EQUIPMENT and the various OFFICE FUEL SUPPLIES on all those floors? If that's the case, why would not the 9/11 fires NOT 'burn' HOTTER considering there were NO firemen fighting it? And WHY would the addition of 150 tons of Aluminum and Kerosene NOT make them burn EVEN HOTTER than the Feb 13 fires which ONLY had the Office fuels to burn?
So you are STILL lying like a good little UFO/CT wanker.
Why didn't the Feb 13 fires not collapse the tower? Could it be that a plane didn't fly THROUGH it and REMOVE FIREPROOFING from critical structural members? Which then led to catastrophic failures in 9/11 fires? Unlike in the Feb 13 fires which did NOT occur because the fireproofing was INTACT and FRESSHER and less degraded with age as well as extreme vibratory and direct-impact dislodgement?
You lied about THAT to, didn't you?
That makes THREE STRIKES and you're out. you fraud and scam artist. Get out and stay out, you turd. Go sell you sh*t somewhere where people aren't too smart to see what you're selling. You and Foxx1957 should 'merge' your 'businesses' and advertise under a 'joint venture' in STUPIDITY and PERVERSE anti-social activities. Here's a suggested slogan for your new joint venture in lunacy, idiocy, gullibility lies and fraud:
SENTINEL-FOXXa957: Your place of choice for the choicest sh*t on the net!
Disgusting UFO/CT creeps all in bed together and crying 'patriotism' and 'truth' and 'religion' and 'strength' and 'honor' with a level of cynical hypocrisy that could only be described as criminal malappropriation of things which are obviously foreign to you and your slimy consciences.
You're a lying fraud, Sentinel. You're busted
And Sentinel, who lies like that and is thus disqualified from claiming ANY 'strength' OR 'honor' is welcome on your 'side' of the floor? No wonder you're losing. You have convicted criminals, liars and pretend and ineffectual posers who call everyone who can poke HUGE holes in their NON_PHYSICS idiocy a scumbag or shill, or traitor etc. And you want respect from physorg people in return? You're DREAMIN! just like you're dreaming when you think you have any standing here. The internet is full of LYING idiots and clowns like this Sentinel fraud. You're welcome to him. Not surprised, considering the standards demonstrated by you crazies so far. Yuck! Where's the physics? We're STILL waiting. This is a PHYSICS and Science forum. Stop prancing and posing and give us what you must if you're ever going to earn respect. The physics is all that's important here...just ask your fellow traveller Computer Fogie.
Considering the rate of inflation (and the fact that the military uses a lot more fuel on a percent basis than the typical person) a 5% increase is a zero actual growth budget request.
But there is NOTHING that Foxx does not see as part of the conspiracy.
Arthur
Considering the rate of inflation (and the fact that the military uses a lot more fuel on a percent basis than the typical person) a 5% increase is a zero actual growth budget request.
But there is NOTHING that Foxx does not see as part of the conspiracy.
Arthur
That's because hes a member of Conspiracy (Comedy) Central. I'm sure he accuses the mail man of conspiring to bring the mail late. Heh!
So the fires could not have resulted in the collapse.
If JPF4 Fuel is simular to kerosene then why are'nt there more kerosene heater fires in private home even more why are'nt there more fires because of the plastic coverins around many of the makes on kerosene heaters?
Strength and Honor
Sentinel
You have just proved you are nothing but another UFO/CT conspiracy freak, or another scam artist selling to the dumb clucks who buy your crap and pay up like good little idotic gullible sheep with more money for you fleece them out of than they have brains to think with.
Research into fires caused by improperly maintained or faulty home kerosene heaters will tell that you are bullsh*tting. By improperly maintained or faulty it means that the kerosene in the reservoir is made hot and the vapours allowed to mix with enough air before controlled burning off the 'wick' surfaces where it is designed to burn. So there WERE MANY such fires around the world before design changes made 'maintenance' and premature mixing/ignition a 'non issue'.
So in the best traditions of malicious and/or ignorant UFO/CT conspiracy monger, you lied your head off there.
And if the fires on Feb 13, 1975 on six floors were burning 'much hotter' like you say, despite the firemen's efforts, then WHAT were the fires 'burning'? Could it be all that OFICE FURNITURE, EQUIPMENT and the various OFFICE FUEL SUPPLIES on all those floors? If that's the case, why would not the 9/11 fires NOT 'burn' HOTTER considering there were NO firemen fighting it? And WHY would the addition of 150 tons of Aluminum and Kerosene NOT make them burn EVEN HOTTER than the Feb 13 fires which ONLY had the Office fuels to burn?
So you are STILL lying like a good little UFO/CT wanker.
Why didn't the Feb 13 fires not collapse the tower? Could it be that a plane didn't fly THROUGH it and REMOVE FIREPROOFING from critical structural members? Which then led to catastrophic failures in 9/11 fires? Unlike in the Feb 13 fires which did NOT occur because the fireproofing was INTACT and FRESSHER and less degraded with age as well as extreme vibratory and direct-impact dislodgement?
You lied about THAT to, didn't you?
That makes THREE STRIKES and you're out. you fraud and scam artist. Get out and stay out, you turd. Go sell you sh*t somewhere where people aren't too smart to see what you're selling. You and Foxx1957 should 'merge' your 'businesses' and advertise under a 'joint venture' in STUPIDITY and PERVERSE anti-social activities. Here's a suggested slogan for your new joint venture in lunacy, idiocy, gullibility lies and fraud:
SENTINEL-FOXXa957: Your place of choice for the choicest sh*t on the net!
Disgusting UFO/CT creeps all in bed together and crying 'patriotism' and 'truth' and 'religion' and 'strength' and 'honor' with a level of cynical hypocrisy that could only be described as criminal malappropriation of things which are obviously foreign to you and your slimy consciences.
You're a lying fraud, Sentinel. You're busted
And Sentinel, who lies like that and is thus disqualified from claiming ANY 'strength' OR 'honor' is welcome on your 'side' of the floor? No wonder you're losing. You have convicted criminals, liars and pretend and ineffectual posers who call everyone who can poke HUGE holes in their NON_PHYSICS idiocy a scumbag or shill, or traitor etc. And you want respect from physorg people in return? You're DREAMIN! just like you're dreaming when you think you have any standing here. The internet is full of LYING idiots and clowns like this Sentinel fraud. You're welcome to him. Not surprised, considering the standards demonstrated by you crazies so far. Yuck! Where's the physics? We're STILL waiting. This is a PHYSICS and Science forum. Stop prancing and posing and give us what you must if you're ever going to earn respect. The physics is all that's important here...just ask your fellow traveller Computer Fogie.
QUOTE
The plan comes three days before President Bush sends Congress a 2007 budget that seeks a nearly 5 percent increase in Defense Department spending, to $439.3 billion
Considering the rate of inflation (and the fact that the military uses a lot more fuel on a percent basis than the typical person) a 5% increase is a zero actual growth budget request.
But there is NOTHING that Foxx does not see as part of the conspiracy.
Arthur
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 7 2006, 06:17 AM)
QUOTE
The plan comes three days before President Bush sends Congress a 2007 budget that seeks a nearly 5 percent increase in Defense Department spending, to $439.3 billion
Considering the rate of inflation (and the fact that the military uses a lot more fuel on a percent basis than the typical person) a 5% increase is a zero actual growth budget request.
But there is NOTHING that Foxx does not see as part of the conspiracy.
Arthur
That's because hes a member of Conspiracy (Comedy) Central. I'm sure he accuses the mail man of conspiring to bring the mail late. Heh!
I reiterate... look again at the '25 Ways To Suppress Truth'...
http://www.hasslberger.com/about/about/awa/awa_6.htm
and count how many of these tactics are employed everyday by Schneiby & 'Friends'.
You don't need to be a 'rocket scientist' to figure it out.
Peace
Foxx
http://www.hasslberger.com/about/about/awa/awa_6.htm
and count how many of these tactics are employed everyday by Schneiby & 'Friends'.
You don't need to be a 'rocket scientist' to figure it out.
Peace
Foxx
QUOTE (Foxx+Feb 7 2006, 06:30 AM)
I reiterate... look again at the '25 Ways To Suppress Truth'...
http://www.hasslberger.com/about/about/awa/awa_6.htm
and count how many of these tactics are employed everyday by Schneiby & 'Friends'.
You don't need to be a 'rocket scientist' to figure it out.
Peace
Foxx
You're good at the re-iteration but bad on the science. That could explain why you're just an impotent UFO/CT nut and not a rocket scientist. You're just rocket exhaust. Spent and disappearing in thin air. Where's the PHYSICS? You're just doing the loser's march now....trotting out IRRELEVANT and paranoid idiocies like MMC does. Where's the physics, Foxx fur? Stop doin the 'newton' waltz with that pseudo grown up impersonation, and give us the PHYSICS without INSULTING all the scientists here. We're sick of hearing you blab and blab and blab. We've had about enough. This is a physics/science board. We didn't ask you to come here. You invited yourself with the promise of proof based on physics. So where IS it? Put up or shut up is the saying. Get it? Put up, Foxx fur.
http://www.hasslberger.com/about/about/awa/awa_6.htm
and count how many of these tactics are employed everyday by Schneiby & 'Friends'.
You don't need to be a 'rocket scientist' to figure it out.
Peace
Foxx
You're good at the re-iteration but bad on the science. That could explain why you're just an impotent UFO/CT nut and not a rocket scientist. You're just rocket exhaust. Spent and disappearing in thin air. Where's the PHYSICS? You're just doing the loser's march now....trotting out IRRELEVANT and paranoid idiocies like MMC does. Where's the physics, Foxx fur? Stop doin the 'newton' waltz with that pseudo grown up impersonation, and give us the PHYSICS without INSULTING all the scientists here. We're sick of hearing you blab and blab and blab. We've had about enough. This is a physics/science board. We didn't ask you to come here. You invited yourself with the promise of proof based on physics. So where IS it? Put up or shut up is the saying. Get it? Put up, Foxx fur.
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