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Foxx
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...indpost&p=59243

QUOTE
Something not seen in any of the internet photos of 7 I've seen is the very large gouge on the south side. I'm not talking about the 18 story gouge in the south west corner. There is a much bigger gouge in the center of the south face of the building. Something like this but worse...

User posted image







Oh really !

Got any pictures of this mythical south-side gash in WTC 7?

And did the Bankers Trust (130 Liberty Street) suddenly disintegrate in a perfect example of controlled Implosion Demolition?

The hole in Bankers Trust was virtually the same size as the alleged south side gash in WTC 7.

Check it out... count the number of stories the gash in Bankers Trust actually was...

VERY CLOSE to the Alleged damage to the center south face of WTC 7?

http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/AFC01untitled1.html

Here are some pictures of the inside view of the damage...

http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/AFC01_002.html

User posted image

user posted image

Compare the relative damage between the post & beam Bankers Trust construction... to the post & beam central core construction in WTC 1...

http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/AFC01_003.html

Yet, the twin towers AND WTC 7 disappeared in the previously un-heard-of phenomenon called 'Global Disproportionate Progressive Collapse'...

while the Banker's Trust still stands.

Nothing 'odd' here at all folks... move along now... nothing to see here... go home and watch Oprah.

Don't look too closely at the damage to Bankers Trust. This is not REGULAR peripheral damage from a falling building. Blast Damage seems apparent to me, in combination with high heat effects...

http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/AFC01_004.html

Check out the FEMA report on this peripheral damage. It is apparent that some of the debris was on a horizontal trajectory as it smashed through low level windows at Bankers Trust which was 600 feet from the closest point of the south tower.

How does 'falling debris' enter a building 600 feet away on a horizontal trajectory?

Yep... you got it... ONLY ONE PHYSICS explaination for that...

Explosive forces originating from low levels of WTC 2.

Thanks, Schneiby.


Foxx
User posted image

QUOTE

6.4 Architectural Damage Description
     In addition to the destruction of the canopy structure north of column line 8, and the collapse of the floor areas between the 8th and 23th floors, there was general damage to the entire north facade of the building. Nearly every window was broken on the western half of the north face between column lines B and E below the 23rd floor. This window breakage would appear to be attributable to the following causes:

*Localized damage in the areas impacted by the column trees falling from WTC 2.


*Window breakage would appear to be attributable to ... Smaller debris blown from WTC 1 and WTC 2. In particular, several small chunks of lightweight concrete, which appeared to be from WTC 2 floor slabs, were thrown through the north windows of the building. These debris items ranged in size from small fragments that caused bullet-sized holes in the windows to large chunks with a maximum dimension of approximately 12 inches. Many of these chunks landed as far as 15 feet from the exterior building line and appeared to be traveling almost horizontally when they penetrated the building facade.


http://www.house.gov/science/hot/wtc/wtc-report/WTC_ch6.pdf

html version is cached here...

http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/guardi...wtc/WTC_ch6.htm

The ol' "Guardian" strikes again biggrin.gif

Hmmm... 'Home Office' seems to have been caught off-guard with that last post and has gone briefly silent, while they regroup... biggrin.gif

Never fear, they will be back thrashing & slashing with their sophistry, rhetorics & obfuscations very soon... biggrin.gif


Foxx
Are there REALLY shills who patrol internet forums seeking to propagandize the 'official story'?

Recently released documents from a FOIA request by the National Security Archive suggests that such is FAR from 'fairy tales'...

Rumsfelds Roadmap to Propaganda...

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB177/index.htm

(of course... 'they' would NEVER attempt these PSYOPTS on Their OWN people !

OF course NOT. There is NO evidence of that at all... No one who could fit that description around here... is there?)

BBC warns Bloggers...

QUOTE
A newly declassified document (Jan 27, 2006) gives a fascinating glimpse into the US military's plans for "information operations" - from psychological operations, to attacks on hostile computer networks.

Bloggers beware.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4655196.stm

Who ARE these 'hostile' combatants?

Well, I guess we would have to ask ol' Rummy & the rest of the neo-con boys, wouldn't we.

The head Mo-Jo boogie-woogie witchdoctor casts a spell...

user posted image

Surely... it wouldn't be just 'anyone' who disagrees with the official fairy tale.

Bush was just 'ad-libbing' it when he said...

Conspiracy Theorists are aiding and abetting 'terrorists'...

Surely, He didn't REALLY mean that, now...did he?


biggrin.gif


billybats
Documentary - Building the WTC (46MB .wmv 18min long)


user posted image

user posted image

user posted image
metamars
QUOTE (yesitdid+Jan 28 2006, 05:31 PM)
Metamars writes:
QUOTE
IMO, BZ is basically worthless. While most of my bitter criticism re BZ was inspired more by how their paper was being used than by what B&Z actually wrote (here I confess I did confuse the two, as well as basically forgetting about the inelastic part of their paper after I debunked the elastic part of their paper), I was still being charitable when I suggested that their "elastic dynamic analysis" part of their paper may have merely been motivation to show that a consideration of inelastic deformations is necessary.

It seems to me that B&Z presented the elastic part of their paper because they wanted to convey the impression that "something" bad 'must have happened' or 'may have happened'.

Let's assume that one of these is the case.

>> If you adopt the "may have happened" interpretation, that is basically OK, because none of your peers will take you too seriously, so they will grant you some leeway to be thinking outside of the box.

(Of course, what is not OK is for others to then take the statement in the other sense of "must have happened")

>> If you adopt the "must have happened" interpretation, you now have a huge problem, with B&Z drawing conclusions from a clearly flawed method of analysis. If you are a FEMA Fairy Tale proponent, you may draw a sense of reasurring confirmation from this, but only until somebody shows the flaws in this line of inquiry and draws the obvious conclusion that, were B&Z to truly to have intended this interpretation, they will have discredited themselves.


Actually I feel that the most serious of those who believe that gravity alone was enough to collapse these buildings, use B-Z as a starting point and never as a "must have happened like this". It shows, as did you own analysis that 30+ times the normal load was imparted to the lower floor. This initiates an elastic response from the columns. The columns were not designed to react to loads in this fashion, a sudden increase in vertical load.



No, you've got it wrong.

If you assume the force exerted by the frame, F = -kx, and solve via Newton's eqns. of motion, you get potential energy due to the elastic loading increasing like x^^2.

For small displacements, this is probably fine. For the stiffness constant that BZ used, you find that if the steel frame continued to behave in this way, you would have exceeded the design capacity of the frame in only a few millimeters of compression. As Gordon's more physically realistic calculation shows a plastic deformation which continues "far" beyond the BZ compressive failure point, you immediately know that you have a contradiction.

Now, how to resolve the contradiction? If you want to pretend that steel doesn't bend before it breaks, you might well go with BZ.

In the real world in which we live, steel does bend before it breaks. Thus, I choose to go with Gordon.

Is there any range of compression in which Gordon's and BZ elastic calculations agree?

Yes, there should be. And that is in the elastic range! (I mean, the real elastic range of real, physical steel columns, NOT the mathematical elastic range ala BZ. BZ's mathematical range of validity allows the forces to reach such an extreme level, that the top part of the WTC tower must 'spring' back upwards!

You don't really believe that is physically possible in a real world scenario, do you? I mean, even a 'real' world that admits of perfect symmetry, as in BZ, do you? * For very small, elastic vibrations, the top of the tower would spring back. But that is not my question. My question amounts to: if the physics is such that, in the material world, the frame would have inelastically deformed, do you believe that, by merely choosing to ignore this, via the fact that you have written down and solved an equation for purely elastic motion, that system must somehow cease being physical and "act" like your mathematical description dictates?

Hopefully, you will answer "no" to the above. If you answer "yes", I can't help you, other than to tell you that I'm sure my old physics profs would be pleased with my interpretation moreso than yours.

Once you decide to reject unphysical descriptions, you can see why I have said that BZ's eqn 1 basically tells us that a purely elastic description is inadequate. It does not tell us that a 30+ overload was reached in the real world, an instant before the frame fractured, since such a conclusion was reached by taking the elastic analysis seriously beyond the point of it's validity.

In light of Gordon's calculation, we can also say that it does not imply that fracturing must have occurred at a smaller overload, consistent with the BZ model, since we know that the columns were "only" overengineered by, say, a factor or 3.5 to 10, and 3.5 < 10 < 31. This line of thought seems reasonable, until you realize that this implies fracturing as an even smaller displacement, and the disagreement with Gordon's calcs is thus greater.

Like all theories that are true at all, BZ's elastic analysis is only valid until it is not. You cannot draw valid conclusions by considering calculations based on a theory outside of it's 'domain', or set of conditions in whch the theory is accurate.

==========================

Thus, your statement:

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
IMO, BZ is basically worthless. While most of my bitter criticism re BZ was inspired more by how their paper was being used than by what B&Z actually wrote (here I confess I did confuse the two, as well as basically forgetting about the inelastic part of their paper after I debunked the elastic part of their paper), I was still being charitable when I suggested that their "elastic dynamic analysis" part of their paper may have merely been motivation to show that a consideration of inelastic deformations is necessary.

It seems to me that B&Z presented the elastic part of their paper because they wanted to convey the impression that "something" bad 'must have happened' or 'may have happened'.

Let's assume that one of these is the case.

>> If you adopt the "may have happened" interpretation, that is basically OK, because none of your peers will take you too seriously, so they will grant you some leeway to be thinking outside of the box.

(Of course, what is not OK is for others to then take the statement in the other sense of "must have happened")

>> If you adopt the "must have happened" interpretation, you now have a huge problem, with B&Z drawing conclusions from a clearly flawed method of analysis. If you are a FEMA Fairy Tale proponent, you may draw a sense of reasurring confirmation from this, but only until somebody shows the flaws in this line of inquiry and draws the obvious conclusion that, were B&Z to truly to have intended this interpretation, they will have discredited themselves.


Actually I feel that the most serious of those who believe that gravity alone was enough to collapse these buildings, use B-Z as a starting point and never as a "must have happened like this". It shows, as did you own analysis that 30+ times the normal load was imparted to the lower floor. This initiates an elastic response from the columns. The columns were not designed to react to loads in this fashion, a sudden increase in vertical load.



No, you've got it wrong.

If you assume the force exerted by the frame, F = -kx, and solve via Newton's eqns. of motion, you get potential energy due to the elastic loading increasing like x^^2.

For small displacements, this is probably fine. For the stiffness constant that BZ used, you find that if the steel frame continued to behave in this way, you would have exceeded the design capacity of the frame in only a few millimeters of compression. As Gordon's more physically realistic calculation shows a plastic deformation which continues "far" beyond the BZ compressive failure point, you immediately know that you have a contradiction.

Now, how to resolve the contradiction? If you want to pretend that steel doesn't bend before it breaks, you might well go with BZ.

In the real world in which we live, steel does bend before it breaks. Thus, I choose to go with Gordon.

Is there any range of compression in which Gordon's and BZ elastic calculations agree?

Yes, there should be. And that is in the elastic range! (I mean, the real elastic range of real, physical steel columns, NOT the mathematical elastic range ala BZ. BZ's mathematical range of validity allows the forces to reach such an extreme level, that the top part of the WTC tower must 'spring' back upwards!

You don't really believe that is physically possible in a real world scenario, do you? I mean, even a 'real' world that admits of perfect symmetry, as in BZ, do you? * For very small, elastic vibrations, the top of the tower would spring back. But that is not my question. My question amounts to: if the physics is such that, in the material world, the frame would have inelastically deformed, do you believe that, by merely choosing to ignore this, via the fact that you have written down and solved an equation for purely elastic motion, that system must somehow cease being physical and "act" like your mathematical description dictates?

Hopefully, you will answer "no" to the above. If you answer "yes", I can't help you, other than to tell you that I'm sure my old physics profs would be pleased with my interpretation moreso than yours.

Once you decide to reject unphysical descriptions, you can see why I have said that BZ's eqn 1 basically tells us that a purely elastic description is inadequate. It does not tell us that a 30+ overload was reached in the real world, an instant before the frame fractured, since such a conclusion was reached by taking the elastic analysis seriously beyond the point of it's validity.

In light of Gordon's calculation, we can also say that it does not imply that fracturing must have occurred at a smaller overload, consistent with the BZ model, since we know that the columns were "only" overengineered by, say, a factor or 3.5 to 10, and 3.5 < 10 < 31. This line of thought seems reasonable, until you realize that this implies fracturing as an even smaller displacement, and the disagreement with Gordon's calcs is thus greater.

Like all theories that are true at all, BZ's elastic analysis is only valid until it is not. You cannot draw valid conclusions by considering calculations based on a theory outside of it's 'domain', or set of conditions in whch the theory is accurate.

==========================

Thus, your statement:

It shows, as did you own analysis that 30+ times the normal load was imparted to the lower floor.


is false. What I showed is that, if BZ is taken seriously beyond the point where real, physical steel has exceeded it's elastic limit, and if you also pretended that it has not fractured, yet, then you would have 30x times normal load.

Thus, what I showed is that BZ/elastic dynamic analysis has no validity at the associated level of "compression". (Actually, what me and Gordon showed. When I did the calculation, Gordon had not yet posted on this thread. Before Gordon, I simply looked at the extraordinarily small compressive displacement associated with a theoretical upper limit of 31x overload, and said "absurd - can't be physical, and thus the analysis can't be correct")

Also,
QUOTE

This initiates an elastic response from the columns.


is wrong in 2 ways. The elastic "response" (I would refer to it as "behavior") is there from the beginning, at any non-zero displacement. Furthermore, considering how rapidly the elastic behavior ends, it'd be fair to say that it's ONLY there at the beginning.

Secondly, if by "This" you mean "This 30x normal load", then this statement has no meaning, as 30x would never be reached (at least, not in the way that BZ has sketched out)
adoucette
So Metamars, when are YOU publishing YOUR paper for PEER REVIEW?

Arthur
Sensable
Video proof BEYOND A DOUBT the columns were pulled in...

Proof the trusses sagged and pulled in the columns

JamesX
You're losing it, Schneib.

adoucette
QUOTE (Sensable+Jan 29 2006, 02:46 PM)
Video proof BEYOND A DOUBT the columns were pulled in...

Proof the trusses sagged and pulled in the columns

Excellent.

Wonder what pretzel logic the CDers will try to explain this away with?

Arthur
adoucette
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Jan 29 2006, 02:21 AM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Jan 28 2006, 08:19 PM)
And here we see the OTHER common trait of CTers.

They are FRIGGIN scared of their shadows.

They talk of the Govt as if it is the Boogey Man.

Got news for you Luketober.

NO ONE GIVES A SHIIT WHAT YOU SAY OR POST.

Get over yourself.

The ONLY DANGER to you IS you.

laugh.gif

Arthur

If that is true what are you doing here logged on 24 hours a day?

I stay logged on, I'm not in front of my PC 24/7 however.

Since a lot of my work is back and forth collaboration, I often have a few minutes to kill during the day.

And that is ALL this is to me, a way to kill time.

Arthur
adoucette
QUOTE (Foxx+Jan 29 2006, 03:18 AM)
QUOTE

6.4 Architectural Damage Description
     In addition to the destruction of the canopy structure north of column line 8, and the collapse of the floor areas between the 8th and 23th floors, there was general damage to the entire north facade of the building. Nearly every window was broken on the western half of the north face between column lines B and E below the 23rd floor. This window breakage would appear to be attributable to the following causes:

*Localized damage in the areas impacted by the column trees falling from WTC 2.


*Window breakage would appear to be attributable to ... Smaller debris blown from WTC 1 and WTC 2. In particular, several small chunks of lightweight concrete, which appeared to be from WTC 2 floor slabs, were thrown through the north windows of the building. These debris items ranged in size from small fragments that caused bullet-sized holes in the windows to large chunks with a maximum dimension of approximately 12 inches. Many of these chunks landed as far as 15 feet from the exterior building line and appeared to be traveling almost horizontally when they penetrated the building facade.



Well since the towers were nearing 200 m/s when they were near the end of the fall the fact that approx 12 foot chucks of material were FLUNG away from the building at high speed HARDLY seems strange.

What it DOESN'T require is any explosives going off.

Nor are there ANY pictures of any EXTERNAL damage to the lower levels of the WTC towers PRIOR to the collapsing column catching up to it.

Stick a fork in Foxx, he's done.

Arthur
adoucette
Oh FOXXY,

As to WTC 7 Steel.

Just found this:

http://www.wpi.edu/News/Transformations/2002Spring/fall.html

QUOTE
Team members toured what was left of the 16-acre World Trade Center Plaza, interviewed officials and eyewitnesses, and examined remnants of fallen structures at the Staten Island landfill and at salvage yards. Steel samples were cut and cataloged for further study, and some were taken back to WPI for analysis (see The "Deep Mystery" of Melted Steel).


So apparently they TOURED the site, interviewed people but according to this it APPEARS that the steel was recovered from the SALVAGE YARDS.

One more reason why NIST might not agree that any steel was POSITIVELY identified as coming from WTC 7.

Arthur
Sensable
QUOTE (JamesX+Jan 29 2006, 06:55 PM)
You're losing it, Schneib.

This is all they have left. Pathetic... Heh! dry.gif
JamesX
All you've got left are photos and videos that support the case for controlled demolition.

Thanks, got any more?



Coastal
QUOTE (adoucette+Jan 29 2006, 07:06 PM)
QUOTE (Sensable+Jan 29 2006, 02:46 PM)
Video proof BEYOND A DOUBT the columns were pulled in...

Proof the trusses sagged and pulled in the columns

Excellent.

Wonder what pretzel logic the CDers will try to explain this away with?

Arthur



<chirp, chirp>

Somebody?

Anybody?

This should be good.

Sensable
QUOTE (JamesX+Jan 29 2006, 08:21 PM)
All you've got left are photos and videos that support the case for controlled demolition.

Thanks, got any more?

Pathetic

"I think this reflect more on the writer than on me..." - Al Franken
Sensable
QUOTE (Coastal+Jan 29 2006, 08:34 PM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Jan 29 2006, 07:06 PM)
QUOTE (Sensable+Jan 29 2006, 02:46 PM)
Video proof BEYOND A DOUBT the columns were pulled in...

Proof the trusses sagged and pulled in the columns

Excellent.

Wonder what pretzel logic the CDers will try to explain this away with?

Arthur



<chirp, chirp>

Somebody?

Anybody?

This should be good.

I suspect 'Team Cirque du Soleil' will twist and contort this into some sort of "G-man" video editing technology yet to be revealed. I can hear it now... "Why, the TV version of Star Trek had better special effects!" Heh!
Schneibster
Right, to go along with the "bombs in the basement" that blew up the top of the building, the "lasers from outer space," and the "thousands of tons of thermite." The only things missing from the foil-hat theories so far are "reptilians" and "resonance." rolleyes.gif
JamesX
Talking to yourself again, buddy?

Sensable
QUOTE (JamesX+Jan 29 2006, 09:24 PM)
Talking to yourself again, buddy?

Only Faux can be this repetitive, boring and LAME.

You WILL be talking to yourself from now on.
brian
QUOTE (Sensable+Jan 29 2006, 05:42 AM)
Something not seen in any of the internet photos of 7 I've seen is the very large gouge on the south side. I'm not talking about the 18 story gouge in the south west corner. There is a much bigger gouge in the center of the south face of the building. Something like this but worse...

User posted image

Its the Bankers Trust but so what.

Anyone YET explained how such a large section of the tower REACHED this building?

Is there an answer within the official tale?

Or is Foxx right again -

"Yep... you got it... ONLY ONE PHYSICS explaination for that..."
JamesX
QUOTE (Schnensible+)

You WILL be talking to yourself from now on.


I don't know, you might get lonely. Just you, the mail-order bride, a bunch of stuffed animals and your multiple personalities.

You might want to keep your options open. biggrin.gif

reasonwhy
QUOTE (Sensable+Jan 29 2006, 01:46 PM)
QUOTE (JamesX+Jan 29 2006, 09:24 PM)
Talking to yourself again, buddy?

Only Faux can be this repetitive, boring and LAME.

You WILL be talking to yourself from now on.

They make promises like this all the time , don’t believe it. The propagandist will bring out a video clip showing controlled demolition and argue for days that it somehow supports a gravity driven collapse.
metamars
QUOTE (Sensable+Jan 29 2006, 06:46 PM)
Video proof BEYOND A DOUBT the columns were pulled in...

Proof the trusses sagged and pulled in the columns

I only see them pulled in a split second before or after the collapse ensues ( note that this suggests that the NIST photo was indeed fraudulent since they have melded two photos from very different times, yet the bottom, earlier picture shows substantial curvature. However, I cannot be 100% sure, based on this video, alone, how much curvature there was even 2 seconds before the collapse began. I get the impression that there was basically none.).

If the core collapses a split second before the exterior, it would also pull inwardly on the exterior, through floor trusses. In this case, there is no need to introduce the notion of floor sagging as being the cause of the inward collapse of the exterior columns (if you can adequately explain the column failure.) If you do blame sagging, you have to explain why the sagging occurred so quickly.*

So, how do you distinguish which is the case?

Finally, recall the claims of Matthys Levy, whose firm was paid to study the collapses. He affirmed that the columns must have failed simultaneously. Frankly, it's not crystal clear what he means, but at the very least we can suppose that he means simultaneously, floor by floor (as opposed to simultaneously, also along their lengths, which would have resulted in a free fall collapse time).

If the core columns fail "simultaneously", that would explain how they can pull inwardly along a wide swath of exterior columns.

(Of course, the next logical question to ask would be: what could possibly cause the core columns to fail simultaneously? The claim that this could happen by chance strikes me as pseudo-scientific, due to it's great improbability. )

Also, if you agree with Levy not to blame the trusses, and claim that not only did the core columns fail simultaneously, but also the exterior columns failed simultaneously with them, this is not only unbelievable on it's face, IMO, but tends to contradict the evidence of this video.



* Apparently. Again, this video begins a split second before the collapse ensues. (Well, or a split second afterwards.) It's rather unlikely that the videographer managed to begin to capture the collapse at exactly the right moment. Thus, I assume the video has been edited, possibly to hide the fact that the pulling inwards of the exterior columns happened very quickly.
metamars
As if that's not enough....

http://www.gnn.tv/B12562

QUOTE

A woman nearly froze to death while sitting in front of her wood burning stove. Paramedics said that her steel framed wood burning stove had 4 well seasoned oak logs inside of it. When asked why she did not light the wood on fire to warm herself she replied; “Obviously you haven’t read the 911 Commission report?”


biggrin.gif
Sensable
QUOTE (brian+Jan 29 2006, 09:54 PM)
QUOTE (Sensable+Jan 29 2006, 05:42 AM)
Something not seen in any of the internet photos of 7 I've seen is the very large gouge on the south side. I'm not talking about the 18 story gouge in the south west corner. There is a much bigger gouge in the center of the south face of the building. Something like this but worse...

User posted image

Its the Bankers Trust but so what.

Anyone YET explained how such a large section of the tower REACHED this building?

Is there an answer within the official tale?

Or is Foxx right again -

"Yep... you got it... ONLY ONE PHYSICS explaination for that..."

When you can explain how a bomb pulls steel in toward it... dry.gif
Schneibster
Jamestown is cold this time of year, I hear.
Guest_rawfooddan
first thing is that it wasn't the entire core, the entire core was made up of 47 central collumns. what we see is way less than that.

second, why didn't it stay standing? it looks like it was blown out from the bottom.

third, both towers still came down faster than the equations say they should have if they were encountering stationary objects on the way down, as they would have with a pancake collapse. in real life the resistance on each floor have been several times it's own weight. I saw somewhere that it was designed to handle 6 times each floor's weight which would have pushed a pancake collapse past 20 seconds at least.

and lastly, how do you deal with all the numerous reports of explosions all over the building?

forgetting about any pancake theory, the exlosions that were reported all over both towers that day make it hard to believe the towers came down merely from a pancake collapse type building failure.





brian
QUOTE (Sensable+Jan 29 2006, 10:22 PM)
QUOTE (brian+Jan 29 2006, 09:54 PM)
QUOTE (Sensable+Jan 29 2006, 05:42 AM)
Something not seen in any of the internet photos of 7 I've seen is the very large gouge on the south side. I'm not talking about the 18 story gouge in the south west corner. There is a much bigger gouge in the center of the south face of the building. Something like this but worse...

User posted image

Its the Bankers Trust but so what.

Anyone YET explained how such a large section of the tower REACHED this building?

Is there an answer within the official tale?

Or is Foxx right again -

"Yep... you got it... ONLY ONE PHYSICS explaination for that..."

When you can explain how a bomb pulls steel in toward it... dry.gif

No need for me to explain -"how a bomb pulls steel in toward it..."

YOUR picture of the Bankers Trust building shows very clearly that the result was large sections of the steel ended up over 600 ft away.

How can this happen?

As Foxx says -

"Yep... you got it... ONLY ONE PHYSICS explaination for that..."


RealityCheck
QUOTE (brian+Jan 29 2006, 10:46 PM)
QUOTE (Sensable+Jan 29 2006, 10:22 PM)
QUOTE (brian+Jan 29 2006, 09:54 PM)
QUOTE (Sensable+Jan 29 2006, 05:42 AM)
Something not seen in any of the internet photos of 7 I've seen is the very large gouge on the south side. I'm not talking about the 18 story gouge in the south west corner. There is a much bigger gouge in the center of the south face of the building. Something like this but worse...

User posted image

Its the Bankers Trust but so what.

Anyone YET explained how such a large section of the tower REACHED this building?

Is there an answer within the official tale?

Or is Foxx right again -

"Yep... you got it... ONLY ONE PHYSICS explaination for that..."

When you can explain how a bomb pulls steel in toward it... dry.gif

No need for me to explain -"how a bomb pulls steel in toward it..."

YOUR picture of the Bankers Trust building shows very clearly that the result was large sections of the steel ended up over 600 ft away.

How can this happen?

As Foxx says -

"Yep... you got it... ONLY ONE PHYSICS explaination for that..."


Hi everyone!

I'm curious. Does anyone know from WHERE (which levels) of the tower those perimeter wall sections came? It looks like it struck the pictured building higher up and then 'cut' its way down (along with the debris it created higher up, of course). Or was there more/larger wall-section(s) involved which broke up or are out of picture?

That's it. Anyone?

Be back through here, later today. Cheers.

RC.
.
Sensable
QUOTE
I only see them pulled in a split second before or after the collapse ensues ( note that this suggests that the NIST photo was indeed fraudulent since they have melded two photos from very different times, yet the bottom, earlier picture shows substantial curvature. However, I cannot be 100% sure, based on this video, alone, how much curvature there was even 2 seconds before the collapse began. I get the impression that there was basically none.).


You just don't give up. Here you suggest the NIST doctored the photo because you can't tell if the the columns were pulled in before the collapse. How the HELL can you tell the walls were straight from that video, because the tower was on it's way down when the camera pulls back??? All you saw was a corner which the NIST photo shows with only a small bow anyway. Do you expect the smoke to clear just for you? blink.gif How can you tell which wall that is as well? How do you know it's the same wall?

You are obviously pulling crap straight out your anus. Why are you doing this? Are you so invested in this idea you have to bend reality to fit it?

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
I only see them pulled in a split second before or after the collapse ensues ( note that this suggests that the NIST photo was indeed fraudulent since they have melded two photos from very different times, yet the bottom, earlier picture shows substantial curvature. However, I cannot be 100% sure, based on this video, alone, how much curvature there was even 2 seconds before the collapse began. I get the impression that there was basically none.).


You just don't give up. Here you suggest the NIST doctored the photo because you can't tell if the the columns were pulled in before the collapse. How the HELL can you tell the walls were straight from that video, because the tower was on it's way down when the camera pulls back??? All you saw was a corner which the NIST photo shows with only a small bow anyway. Do you expect the smoke to clear just for you? blink.gif How can you tell which wall that is as well? How do you know it's the same wall?

You are obviously pulling crap straight out your anus. Why are you doing this? Are you so invested in this idea you have to bend reality to fit it?

If the core collapses a split second before the exterior, it would also pull inwardly on the exterior, through floor trusses. In this case, there is no need to introduce the notion of floor sagging as being the cause of the inward collapse of the exterior columns (if you can adequately explain the column failure.) If you do blame sagging, you have to explain why the sagging occurred so quickly.*


What you have to do is explain why only one floor gets pulled in if the whole core drops. All four sides of the building would have been pulled in at one time if the core drops. All floors connected to the falling core.

There is nothing in the video which says the columns in the center of the building weren't pulling the columns in as the NIST photo illustrates. This ties in with what the NIST report has been saying. The columns pulled in more and more with time and this video shows the moment the columns failed due to this ever increasing strain. The photo only compliments this video.

QUOTE
Finally, recall the claims of Matthys Levy, whose firm was paid to study the collapses. He affirmed that the columns must have failed simultaneously. Frankly, it's not crystal clear what he means


This video illustrates what he means. A row of columns are seen failing at the same time. As one weakened column fails it's only logical that the load continues to tranfer over to the other already weakened columns next to it. No rocket science needed to explain this.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Finally, recall the claims of Matthys Levy, whose firm was paid to study the collapses. He affirmed that the columns must have failed simultaneously. Frankly, it's not crystal clear what he means


This video illustrates what he means. A row of columns are seen failing at the same time. As one weakened column fails it's only logical that the load continues to tranfer over to the other already weakened columns next to it. No rocket science needed to explain this.

If the core columns fail "simultaneously", that would explain how they can pull inwardly along a wide swath of exterior columns.


But it wouldn't explain how it failed on one floor first. Did one section of the core fail first while the top and bottom of the failed core remained intact? How would that work?

QUOTE
what could possibly cause the core columns to fail simultaneously?


No, the question would be "what could possibly cause the core columns to fail simultaneously on one floor?"

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
what could possibly cause the core columns to fail simultaneously?


No, the question would be "what could possibly cause the core columns to fail simultaneously on one floor?"

Also, if you agree with Levy not to blame the trusses, and claim that not only did the core columns fail simultaneously, but also the exterior columns failed simultaneously with them, this is not only unbelievable on it's face, IMO, but tends to contradict the evidence of this video.


There is NO senario presented by NIST which says the building fell because of ONE piece of the puzzle.

_________________________________

Probable Collapse Sequence for WTC 1

1.Aircraft Impact Damage:
•Aircraft impact severed a number of exterior columns on the North wall from floors 93 to 98, and the wall section above the impact zone moved downward.

•After breaching the building’s perimeter, the aircraft continuedto penetrate into the building, severing floor framing and core columns at the North side of thecore. Core columns were also damaged toward the center of the core and, to a limited extent on the South side of the core. Fireproofing was damaged from the impact area to the South perimeter wall, primarily through the center of WTC 1 and at least over a third to a half of the core width.

•Aircraft impact severed a single exterior panel at the center ofthe South wall between floors 94 and 96.

•The impact damage to the exterior walls and to the core resultedin redistribution of severed column loads, mostly to the columns adjacent to the impact zones. The hat truss resisted the downward movement of the North wall, and rotated about the East-West axis.

•As a result of the aircraft impact damage, the North and South walls each carried about 7 percent less gravity loads after impact, and the East and West walls each carried about 7 percent more loads. The core carried about 1 percent more gravity loads after impact.



2.Effects of Subsequent Fires and Impact Damaged Fireproofing:

A.Thermal Weakening of the Core:

•The undamaged core columns developed high plastic and creep strains over the duration the building stood, since both temperatures and stresses were high in the core area. The plastic and creep strains exceeded thermal expansion in the core columns.

•The shortening of the core columns (due to plasticity and creep)was resisted by the hat truss which unloaded the core over time and redistributed loads to perimeter walls.

•As a result of the thermal weakening (and subsequent to impact and prior to inward bowing of the South wall), the North and South walls each carried about10 percent more gravity loads, and the East and West walls each carried about 25 percentmore loads. The core carried about 20 percent less gravity loads after thermal weakening.

B.Thermal Weakening of the Floors:

•Floors 95 to 99 weakened with increasing temperatures over time on the long-span floors and sagged. The floors sagged first and then contracted due to cooling on the North side; fires reached the South side later, the floors sagged, and the seat connections weakened.

•Floor sagging induced inward pull forces on the South wall columns.

•About 20 percent of the connections to the South perimeter wall on floors 97 and 98 failed due to thermal weakening of the vertical supports.

C.Thermal Weakening of the South Wall:

•South wall columns bowed inward as they were subjected to high temperatures and inward pull forces in addition to axial loads.
•Inward bowing of the South wall columns increased with time.




3.Collapse Initiation
•The inward bowing of the South wall induced column instability, which progressed rapidly horizontally across the entire South face.

•The South wall unloaded and tried to redistribute the loads via the hat truss to the thermally weakened core and via the spandrels to the adjacent East and West walls.

•The entire section of the building above the impact zone began tilting as a rigid block (all four faces; not only the bowed and buckled South face) to the South (at least about 8º) as column instability progressed rapidly from the South wall along the adjacent East and West walls.

•The change in potential energy due to downward movement of building mass above the buckled columns exceeded the strain energy that could be absorbed by the structure. Global collapse then ensued.

Probable Collapse Sequence for WTC 2

1.Aircraft Impact Damage:

•Aircraft impact severed a number of exterior columns on the South wall from floors 78 to 84, and the wall section above the impact zone moved downward.

•After breaching the building’s perimeter, the aircraft continuedto penetrate into the building, severing floor framing and core columns at the Southeast corner of the core. Fireproofing was damaged from the impact area through the East half of the core up to the North and East perimeter walls. The floor truss seat connections over about 1/4to 1/2 of the East side of the core were severed on floors 80 and 81 and over about 1/3 of the East perimeter wall on floor 83.

•Aircraft impact severed a few columns near the East corner of the North wall between floors 80 and 82.

•The impact damage to the exterior walls resulted in redistribution of severed column loads, mostly to the columns adjacent to the impact zones. The impact damage to the core columns resulted in redistribution of severed column loads mostly to other intact core columns and the East exterior wall. The hat truss resisted the downward movementof the South wall, and rotated about the East-West axis.

•As a result of the aircraft impact damage, the core carried 6 percent less gravity loads after impact and the North face carried 10 percent less loads. The East face carried 24 percent more gravity load, while the West face and the South face carried 3 percent and 2 percent more gravity load, respectively.

•After impact, the core was leaning toward the East and South perimeter walls. The perimeter walls acted to restrain the core structure.



2.Effects of Subsequent Fires and Impact Damaged Fireproofing:

A.Thermal Weakening of the Core:

•Several of the undamaged core columns near the damaged and severed core columns developed high plastic and creep strains over the duration the building stood, since both temperatures and stresses were high in the core area. The plastic and creep strains exceeded thermal expansion in the core columns.

•The core continued to tilt toward the East and South due to the combination of column shortening (due to plasticity, creep, and buckling) and the failure of column splices at the hat truss in the Southeast corner.

•As a result of thermal weakening (and subsequent to impact), theEast wall carried about 5 percent more gravity loads and the core carried about 2 percent less loads. The other three walls carried between 0 and 3 percent less loads.

B.Thermal Weakening of the Floors:

•Floors 79 to 83 weakened with increasing temperatures over time on the long-span floors on the East side and sagged.

•Floor sagging induced inward pull forces on the East wall columns.

•About an additional 1/3 of the connections to the East perimeterwall on floor 83 failed due to thermal weakening of the vertical supports.

C.Thermal Weakening of the East Wall:

•East wall columns bowed inward as they were subjected to high temperatures and inward pull forces in addition to axial loads.
•Inward bowing of the East wall columns increased with time.

3.Collapse Initiation

•The inward bowing of the East wall induced column instability, which progressed rapidly horizontally across the entire East face.

•The East wall unloaded and tried to redistribute the loads via the hat truss to the weakened core and via the spandrels to the adjacent North and South walls.

•The entire section of the building above the impact zone began tilting as a rigid block (all four faces; not only the bowed and buckled East face) to the East (about 7ºto 8º) and South (about 3ºto 4º) as column instability progressed rapidly from the East wall along the adjacent North and South walls. The building section above impact continued to rotate to the East as it began to fall downward, and rotated to at least 20 to 25 degrees.

•The change in potential energy due to downward movement of building mass above the buckled columns exceeded the strain energy that could be absorbed by the structure. Global collapse then ensued.

___________________________________

QUOTE
* Apparently. Again, this video begins a split second before the collapse ensues. (Well, or a split second afterwards.) It's rather unlikely that the videographer managed to begin to capture the collapse at exactly the right moment. Thus, I assume the video has been edited, possibly to hide the fact that the pulling inwards of the exterior columns happened very quickly.


That doesn't matter a bit. Because the main point is it shows the columns being pulled in without anything ejecting out the windows before hand supporting the NIST hypothesis.
Sensable
QUOTE (metamars+Jan 29 2006, 10:21 PM)
As if that's not enough....

http://www.gnn.tv/B12562

QUOTE

A woman nearly froze to death while sitting in front of her wood burning stove. Paramedics said that her steel framed wood burning stove had 4 well seasoned oak logs inside of it. When asked why she did not light the wood on fire to warm herself she replied; “Obviously you haven’t read the 911 Commission report?”


biggrin.gif

In the face of video evidence another CTers post means nothing. Valis's Awoken Research Group needs 9/11 to be created by Bush or he loses hits. I think hes a scumbag helping Rove.
Schneibster
The reference to "mail-order bride" is a reference to the fact that I am of Northern European descent, "Caucasian" if you will, and have married a lady of Japanese-American descent. I don't think it's necessary for me to make any further comment on the likely reasons why the individual concerned would make such a comment.

I find it highly revealing that Faux would associate with such individuals, not to mention thank them for their help. How progressive. What lovely company you keep. I'm sure it reflects well on you.

As for JamesX, back to your compound, hilljack. You have nothing to say here that anyone is going to pay any attention to again, after that last.
Sensable
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Jan 29 2006, 11:03 PM)
QUOTE (brian+Jan 29 2006, 10:46 PM)
QUOTE (Sensable+Jan 29 2006, 10:22 PM)
QUOTE (brian+Jan 29 2006, 09:54 PM)
QUOTE (Sensable+Jan 29 2006, 05:42 AM)
Something not seen in any of the internet photos of 7 I've seen is the very large gouge on the south side. I'm not talking about the 18 story gouge in the south west corner. There is a much bigger gouge in the center of the south face of the building. Something like this but worse...

User posted image

Its the Bankers Trust but so what.

Anyone YET explained how such a large section of the tower REACHED this building?

Is there an answer within the official tale?

Or is Foxx right again -

"Yep... you got it... ONLY ONE PHYSICS explaination for that..."

When you can explain how a bomb pulls steel in toward it... dry.gif

No need for me to explain -"how a bomb pulls steel in toward it..."

YOUR picture of the Bankers Trust building shows very clearly that the result was large sections of the steel ended up over 600 ft away.

How can this happen?

As Foxx says -

"Yep... you got it... ONLY ONE PHYSICS explaination for that..."


Hi everyone!

I'm curious. Does anyone know from WHERE (which levels) of the tower those perimeter wall sections came? It looks like it struck the pictured building higher up and then 'cut' its way down (along with the debris it created higher up, of course). Or was there more/larger wall-section(s) involved which broke up or are out of picture?

That's it. Anyone?

Be back through here, later today. Cheers.

RC.
.

That gash doesn't go all the way up the building, RC.

Which brings up another question. How does a bomb eject debris farther and farther the lower in a building it goes.. blink.gif
Sensable
QUOTE (Schneibster+Jan 29 2006, 11:44 PM)
The reference to "mail-order bride" is a reference to the fact that I am of Northern European descent, "Caucasian" if you will, and have married a lady of Japanese-American descent. I don't think it's necessary for me to make any further comment on the likely reasons why the individual concerned would make such a comment.

I find it highly revealing that Faux would associate with such individuals, not to mention thank them for their help. How progressive. What lovely company you keep. I'm sure it reflects well on you.

As for JamesX, back to your compound, hilljack. You have nothing to say here that anyone is going to pay any attention to again, after that last.

Yep, you just can't feed the trolls. wink.gif
metamars
QUOTE (Sensable+Jan 29 2006, 06:46 PM)
Video proof BEYOND A DOUBT the columns were pulled in...

Proof the trusses sagged and pulled in the columns

Also, as per previous posts of mine, there were obviously 2 different demolition geometries, implying 2 different demolition modalities. I have previously mentioned my belief that the inside of the building may have been "cooked" (by whatever was cooking the core). Meanwhile, the surviving spire shows why it was not a good idea to rely on the core demolition, alone, and why cutter charges and the like were desirable to the perpetrators.

Consequently, a core collapse which precedes the onset of a floor-by-floor demolition is in no way something I reject, and, in fact, I have speculated along these lines, previously.

Gordon has recently posted regarding the ability of trusses to pull exterior columns, without shearing off, though he maintains that thermal expansion was pushing outwardly, not pulling inwardly.

So, the net net is, even if I view the picture as probably fraudulent, that doesn't necessarily mean that I reject the notion that some exterior columns got pulled inwardly.

What I reject is the NIST Fairy Tale explanation of the collapse in general, not every last detail. If the NIST Fairy Tale was incorrect in every last detail, hardly anybody would believe it, though I'm sure the popes would "keep the faith".

E.g., the NIST Fairy Tale implies a belief that WTC 1 & 2 fell, and generally fell downwards, towards the center of the earth. (There were obvious bits of building that had initial upwards trajectories)

Well, let me state here and now, that I also believe this, and always have! Woo-hoo!

(BTW, I also believe the planes were hit by jet liners, not by holograms. So, NIST and I ALSO agree on this point!)
Sensable
QUOTE
first thing is that it wasn't the entire core, the entire core was made up of 47 central collumns. what we see is way less than that.


It is IMPOSSIBLE to say for sure how many columns are there from these photos. They could all be there for all we know. The majority of columns are in the center of the core.The photos are taken very far away as the two claw loaders in the foreground show. The piece that's standing is the size of a small building itself.

User posted image

But I think we can agree it's a portion of the core.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
first thing is that it wasn't the entire core, the entire core was made up of 47 central collumns. what we see is way less than that.


It is IMPOSSIBLE to say for sure how many columns are there from these photos. They could all be there for all we know. The majority of columns are in the center of the core.The photos are taken very far away as the two claw loaders in the foreground show. The piece that's standing is the size of a small building itself.

User posted image

But I think we can agree it's a portion of the core.

second, why didn't it stay standing? it looks like it was blown out from the bottom.


You know as well as I it wasn't ment to stand on it's own. If the building swayed before 9/11 in small wind imagine what the collapse would have done to only the core. The core needed the outer columns to exist just as the outer columns need the core.

QUOTE
and lastly, how do you deal with all the numerous reports of explosions all over the building?


This can be a combination of quotes taken out of context and huge concrete floors slamming into each other. The towers were on earth which isn't in a vaccum like space. You don't expect huge concrete floors to fall one on top of the other and not make a sound like an explosion do you?

user posted image

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
and lastly, how do you deal with all the numerous reports of explosions all over the building?


This can be a combination of quotes taken out of context and huge concrete floors slamming into each other. The towers were on earth which isn't in a vaccum like space. You don't expect huge concrete floors to fall one on top of the other and not make a sound like an explosion do you?

user posted image

forgetting about any pancake theory, the exlosions that were reported all over both towers that day make it hard to believe the towers came down merely from a pancake collapse type building failure.


90% of those are CT sites are lying about what they heard. In one quote they say a fireman heard "Boom, Boom, Boom, Boom" suggesting bombs going off but if you SEE the fireman saying what he saw, you see him using his hands with each "Boom" as in heaing the pancaking of floors.

Many people say the sound of a tornado is like a train running through their living room. Using CT logic that means an actual train ran through ther living room... blink.gif
JamesX
QUOTE (da real Schneib+)
I find it highly revealing that Faux would associate with such individuals


You don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to associations, old buddy. Here you are constantly whining about Rove and Bush and "da real conspiracies" but every day you work in concert with a Diebold employee to obfuscate the truth. You are shameless scum. Now shut up and go cry into one of your plush toys and try not to have a another heart attack.
Schneibster
QUOTE (JamesX+Jan 30 2006, 12:40 AM)
You don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to associations, old buddy. Here you are constantly whining about Rove and Bush and "da real conspiracies" but every day you work in concert with a Diebold employee to obfuscate the truth. You are shameless scum. Now shut up and go cry into one of your plush toys and try not to have a another heart attack.

Like I said, back to your compound, hilljack. We don't need any racist militia members here.
JamesX
QUOTE (da real Scneib+)
Like I said blah blah


Oh cool, the repeating game. I can play that too.

Like I said, you don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to associations, old schizoid. Here you are constantly whining about Rove and Bush and "da real conspiracies" but every day you work in concert with a Diebold employee to obfuscate the truth. You are shameless scum. Now shut up and go cry into one of your plush toys and try not to have a another heart attack.

Btw, we've got cable internet at the compound - no need to "go back" anywhere. tongue.gif
Schneibster
I'm sure everyone believes a racist militia member. Glad to see you admit it, so we can judge how much credibility you have.
Sensable
QUOTE
Also, as per previous posts of mine, there were obviously 2 different demolition geometries, implying 2 different demolition modalities. I have previously mentioned my belief that the inside of the building may have been "cooked" (by whatever was cooking the core). Meanwhile, the surviving spire shows why it was not a good idea to rely on the core demolition, alone, and why cutter charges and the like were desirable to the perpetrators.

Consequently, a core collapse which precedes the onset of a floor-by-floor demolition is in no way something I reject, and, in fact, I have speculated along these lines, previously.


You still aren't addressing my point which is if "cutter charges" were used on say the 78th floor, and the core began to drop pulling the perimeter columns inward why didn't the columns above the 78th floor also pull inward? Isn't the core falling pulling on all the trusses from the 78th floor up?

Also how in the world does someone mimic perfectly what would happen under a normal collapse

Don't you agree that it COULD have happened this way given the mounting evidence? It seems everyday we uncover another piece of evidence pointing toward collapse by fire... The fairy tale seems to be the demolition.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Also, as per previous posts of mine, there were obviously 2 different demolition geometries, implying 2 different demolition modalities. I have previously mentioned my belief that the inside of the building may have been "cooked" (by whatever was cooking the core). Meanwhile, the surviving spire shows why it was not a good idea to rely on the core demolition, alone, and why cutter charges and the like were desirable to the perpetrators.

Consequently, a core collapse which precedes the onset of a floor-by-floor demolition is in no way something I reject, and, in fact, I have speculated along these lines, previously.


You still aren't addressing my point which is if "cutter charges" were used on say the 78th floor, and the core began to drop pulling the perimeter columns inward why didn't the columns above the 78th floor also pull inward? Isn't the core falling pulling on all the trusses from the 78th floor up?

Also how in the world does someone mimic perfectly what would happen under a normal collapse

Don't you agree that it COULD have happened this way given the mounting evidence? It seems everyday we uncover another piece of evidence pointing toward collapse by fire... The fairy tale seems to be the demolition.

Gordon has recently posted regarding the ability of trusses to pull exterior columns, without shearing off, though he maintains that thermal expansion was pushing outwardly, not pulling inwardly.


It doesn't matter what Gordon wrote given the video evidence. It's been explained over and over that the trusses expanded pushed out a bit which the building withstood causing the trusses to do the only other thing they could, sag. The sagging trusses then cooled pulling the perimeter inward.

This is NOT debatable because we have photographic evidence the trusses sagged. We also have photographic evidence the columns bowed in. Now I know this puts a wrinkle into your demolition theory and your only out is to claim the photos are doctored but that's where we are. It firmly refutes the lunacy of demolition.

QUOTE
E.g., the NIST Fairy Tale implies a belief that WTC 1 & 2 fell, and generally fell downwards, towards the center of the earth. (There were obvious bits of building that had initial upwards trajectories)


You were shown video which refutes this fantasy yet you repeat it. You seem to disregard facts at will when they butt up against your belief. (I'm starting to understand this "Group think" bush uses as an excuse) The photos of "Bits of building that had initial upwards trajectories" are showing smoke while solids are well below the roof line. You would expect air compressing under the floors tremendous weight to push in every direction including up if up if that's the path of least resistance. It's a stretch to say the effect must have been a bomb.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
E.g., the NIST Fairy Tale implies a belief that WTC 1 & 2 fell, and generally fell downwards, towards the center of the earth. (There were obvious bits of building that had initial upwards trajectories)


You were shown video which refutes this fantasy yet you repeat it. You seem to disregard facts at will when they butt up against your belief. (I'm starting to understand this "Group think" bush uses as an excuse) The photos of "Bits of building that had initial upwards trajectories" are showing smoke while solids are well below the roof line. You would expect air compressing under the floors tremendous weight to push in every direction including up if up if that's the path of least resistance. It's a stretch to say the effect must have been a bomb.

Well, let me state here and now, that I also believe this, and always have! Woo-hoo!


There's hope for you yet. tongue.gif
Schneibster
Here's some food for thought: who precisely do you think is making money off those conspiracy theory DVDs? Do you suppose that might be sufficient motivation for some of these individuals to attack, by any available means, including attempted intimidation, accusations of personality disorders, accusations of complicity, or whatever else they can dredge up, someone who kills their credibility? Looking back over this thread, kinda makes you wonder why they think it's so important, doesn't it?

Fuuck you in the heart, hilljack.
JamesX
QUOTE (da real Schneib+)
Glad to see you admit it


And I'm glad to see that you admitted to being a sociopathic sockpuppeteering fraud. smile.gif
Schneibster
QUOTE (JamesX+Jan 30 2006, 01:41 AM)
And I'm glad to see that you admitted to being a sociopathic sockpuppeteering fraud. smile.gif

Speaking of delusions... in your dreams, hilljack.
what?
I thought the official story people tried to bury Steven E. Jones and here he is with more support. Can't keep a good man down, I guess.

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,635179751,00.html

Their website at:

http://www.st911.org/

BTW, here's the full picture of that building.

User posted image

OK, later......
yesitdid
Just got back to this thread and I see that Foxx is up to his sophistry and misrepresentations yet again.


QUOTE
QUOTE (->
QUOTE

The FEMA report calls for further metallurgic investigations, and Barnett, Biederman and Sisson hope that WPI will obtain NIST funding and access to more samples.
http://www.wpi.edu/News/Transformations/20...ring/steel.html

The last sentence above is very important for historical reflection on what has happened to this investigation into "the deepest mystery uncovered in the investigation". FEMA called for further investigations into this anomaly. Biederman, et al were hoping to obtain further funding and more samples to continue investigating this mystery. I emailed Biederman in 2005 to ask if he had ever received more samples or funding. His response was that the investigation into this 'deep mystery' was terminated.

Yesitdid (the 'YID') tried arguing (sophisizing) that NIST was NOT in possession of these samples from WTC 7 (and that was the reason that NIST claimed they had NO Steel from WTC 7). It is clear from the above statement that NIST 'IS' / 'WAS' in FACT in possesion of these WTC 7 samples... otherwise why would Biederman 'et al' be asking NIST for access to more samples?
.

The above sentence says that WPI wishes more funding and access to steel. Foxx sees the word 'NIST ' in front of the word 'funding' and automatically assumes that it applies to the word 'access' as well.

If it had been written, "The FEMA report calls for further metallurgic investigations, and Barnett, Biederman and Sisson hope that WPI will obtain NIST funding and access to more samples." would that satisfy him? Frankly, as written it could just as well mean they want access to FEMA steel.

It is NOT clear that the NIST metallurgical investigation team had any WTC 7 steel and it is certain that no one had WTC 7 steel that could be positively identified as to location.

The samples of steel that exhibited the anomalous erosion were determined to have gotten that way due to a eutectic mixing that lowered the melting point of the steel.
The source of the sulfur that gave rise to this eutectic mix is , at this point, unknown. There could be several benign sources but of course Foxx wants it to be taken as gospel that it had to be thermite that did this.
yesitdid
QUOTE (metamars+Jan 28 2006, 10:16 PM)
QUOTE (yesitdid+Jan 28 2006, 07:38 PM)
Is AH the only place where you have asked for engineering comment on BZ?

A quick google search produced many engineering forums.
I did a search on two for the word 'Bazant' and this one had several hits for that word. You could try there.

This one did not return anything on WTC or Bazant but it is an engineering forum, you could ask there.


No, I have asked here, also, and discussed it briefly this past Thanksgiving with a cousin who is a professor of applied mathematics, who took his Ph.D. at the same university that Bazant did. He knew of Bazant, though he didn't know him personally.

My cousin was intrigued about the collapse of the mysterious spire, less so by my discussion of BZ. I mentioned that their model seemed to consist of rigid rods connected by springs which could also bend. (I had mistakenly melded their general notion of an elastic bottom with their assumption of plastic hinge joints). I also mistakenly mischaracterized their entire paper as employing "elastic dynamic analysis", which my cousin wasn't familiar with. (Probably because it's too simple. Doubtless, my cuz knows perturbation theory very well, and thus I expect he deals with simple vibrations and/or oscillations as a matter of course, if need be, and typically goes quite beyond this point.)

I did not have the paper with me, and we have not met or talked subsequently, on any subject. At the time, he offered no opinion about it, which is hardly surprising.

I certainly intend to discuss it further, though I'm more interested in talking to structural and civil engineers. My cuz's undergraduate background is in electrical engineering, and he probably knows less about beams than I do.

OK, I amend that to you having contacted three persons, none of which are structural engineers.

Have you posted your questions about B-Z on either of the two forums I suggested?

You asked here. Good boy, , but this is not an engineering forum. Hopefully someone at the other forums, that title themselves at least as engineering forums will have answers for you.

Now answer me this truthfully.
If an engineer or several engineers on the internet state that B-Z's analysis is valid and that the vast majority of the engineering community agrees that the buildings fell due to aircraft damage and subsequent weakening due to the ensuing fires, will you then admit that it was so?

Personally I think not. I believe that you will continue to believe that weapons from space or other some such exotic or complex and complicated mechanism was employed by a clandestine, gov't or shadow gov't organization.
Foxx
QUOTE
Originally posted by 'Schnensable'
Video proof BEYOND A DOUBT the columns were pulled in...

Proof the trusses sagged and pulled in the columns


Very Interesting Video... Thanks, Schneiby.

http://65.217.248.202/911columns.wmv

Bit of a strange address, don't you think?

Let's shorten the address and see if we find the homepage...

http://65.217.248.202/

User posted image

Curiouser... and curiouser?

What does Urology Specialty Care, P.A. have to do with an un-before-heard-of video clip of the destruction of the WTC towers?

This video is truly amazing stuff.

My opinion...???

Looks real to me.

As a matter of fact, I wish I had seen this video long before now... as it appears to me to be further evidence of Controlled Demolition.

I suspect this video clip has come from the 'secret files' of NIST - ('secret'...unless you have about $14000 to get access to these files). I further suspect that in these thousands of stills & video clips that NIST has gathered from the private sector ... (and enticed such 'submitters' to sign non-disclosure agreements... which means that NO ONE can publish or reveal outside of joint written agreement between BOTH parties)...

... that there are many more examples of such videos.

Unsuspecting patriots (responding to public calls from NIST), I am sure, have turned over to NIST thousands of such 'revealing' pictures & videos. However, the signing of non-disclosure documents can be a 'double-edged' sword.

Upon signing one of these 'non-disclosure' agreements - even the original copyright owner of the photo (or video) is not allowed to publish, print, or disseminate such property publicly (apart from agreement from the other 'receiver' of such information).

The 'receiver' of such information (in this case) would be NIST. This puts NIST (as one of the signers of this agreement) in a position of filtering, censoring, and/or propagandizing such received photos or videos...prior to public dissemination.

An interesting post was found on GNN of an individual seeking access to such videos / photos in the 'secret' NIST library....

I found it a Very Interesting post which I received from another 'concerned' poster... ("JamesX")... who has been accused of being 'me'... an imaginary sock-puppet of my own design)...

Heh... as I have said before... I have no need of sock-puppets, (such as others on this thread do)

http://www.gnn.tv/forum/thread.php?id=12262

In one of my last posts I mentioned "Rumsfeld's Roadmap to Propaganda"

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB177/index.htm

As the 'info-wars' heat-up, people on opposing sides tend to get a little 'agitated', and I have received a PM from the great Schneibster... I am honoured! biggrin.gif

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Originally posted by 'Schnensable'
Video proof BEYOND A DOUBT the columns were pulled in...

Proof the trusses sagged and pulled in the columns


Very Interesting Video... Thanks, Schneiby.

http://65.217.248.202/911columns.wmv

Bit of a strange address, don't you think?

Let's shorten the address and see if we find the homepage...

http://65.217.248.202/

User posted image

Curiouser... and curiouser?

What does Urology Specialty Care, P.A. have to do with an un-before-heard-of video clip of the destruction of the WTC towers?

This video is truly amazing stuff.

My opinion...???

Looks real to me.

As a matter of fact, I wish I had seen this video long before now... as it appears to me to be further evidence of Controlled Demolition.

I suspect this video clip has come from the 'secret files' of NIST - ('secret'...unless you have about $14000 to get access to these files). I further suspect that in these thousands of stills & video clips that NIST has gathered from the private sector ... (and enticed such 'submitters' to sign non-disclosure agreements... which means that NO ONE can publish or reveal outside of joint written agreement between BOTH parties)...

... that there are many more examples of such videos.

Unsuspecting patriots (responding to public calls from NIST), I am sure, have turned over to NIST thousands of such 'revealing' pictures & videos. However, the signing of non-disclosure documents can be a 'double-edged' sword.

Upon signing one of these 'non-disclosure' agreements - even the original copyright owner of the photo (or video) is not allowed to publish, print, or disseminate such property publicly (apart from agreement from the other 'receiver' of such information).

The 'receiver' of such information (in this case) would be NIST. This puts NIST (as one of the signers of this agreement) in a position of filtering, censoring, and/or propagandizing such received photos or videos...prior to public dissemination.

An interesting post was found on GNN of an individual seeking access to such videos / photos in the 'secret' NIST library....

I found it a Very Interesting post which I received from another 'concerned' poster... ("JamesX")... who has been accused of being 'me'... an imaginary sock-puppet of my own design)...

Heh... as I have said before... I have no need of sock-puppets, (such as others on this thread do)

http://www.gnn.tv/forum/thread.php?id=12262

In one of my last posts I mentioned "Rumsfeld's Roadmap to Propaganda"

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB177/index.htm

As the 'info-wars' heat-up, people on opposing sides tend to get a little 'agitated', and I have received a PM from the great Schneibster... I am honoured! biggrin.gif

Entitled - 'My Property'
Kindly remove my property from your web site before I have it shut down for copyright violation. You expressly do not have permission. You have been duly informed.


Hey, 'Schneiby'... no problem and thanks for your PM.

So... I assume you agree that you had a public website at...

http://www.bandkshow.com/

...which has since been shut down.

Probably a wise move on your part.

You certainly don't want public access to your bedroom on the public internet ( unless you are into porn or something). Did I NOT advise you against such foolish publications?

The comments regarding racial ancestry of family members I find inappropriate and seriously derogatory, and I sympathize with you for having to suffer such insults.

TOTALLY INAPPROPRIATE.

I myself was once in a relationship with an East Indian woman, and being Caucasion myself I can completely empathize with you on that score --- that such comments are not even worthy of response (unless you feel the NEED to respond) --- I didn't.

If you find any copyright pictures on my web-page, please feel free to inform me, and they will be removed, as per your request. My website can be found at...

http://foxxaero.homestead.com/newsplash.html

I have nothing to hide.

I'll get back to Banker's Trust later. In the meantime I leave you with a refresher of my previous posts...

http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...indpost&p=59221

http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...indpost&p=59251

http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...indpost&p=59252

Obfuscators... IF you choose to address any of these, then don't just pick one partial sentence to attack, but try to address the WHOLE issue IN CONTEXT.

Thanks biggrin.gif


Schneibster
Naww, sport, it ain't offline, it just drops your packets on the ground. Here's your new clue: you don't have copyright to an image, you best not put it on your web site. I'm gonna check tomorrow, and if it ain't gone, homestead gets an email stating copyright violation. Good luck finding a new website provider. My copyrighted images aren't available for the use of racists.
adoucette
QUOTE (Foxx+Jan 29 2006, 11:18 PM)
I suspect this video clip has come from the 'secret files' of NIST - ('secret'...unless you have about $14000 to get access to these files). I further suspect that in these thousands of stills & video clips that NIST has gathered from the private sector ... (and enticed such 'submitters' to sign non-disclosure agreements... which means that NO ONE can publish or reveal outside of joint written agreement between BOTH parties)...

... that there are many more examples of such videos.

Unsuspecting patriots (responding to public calls from NIST), I am sure, have turned over to NIST thousands of such 'revealing' pictures & videos. However, the signing of non-disclosure documents can be a 'double-edged' sword.

Upon signing one of these 'non-disclosure' agreements - even the original copyright owner of the photo (or video) is not allowed to publish, print, or disseminate such property publicly (apart from agreement from the other 'receiver' of such information).

The 'receiver' of such information (in this case) would be NIST. This puts NIST (as one of the signers of this agreement) in a position of filtering, censoring, and/or propagandizing such received photos or videos...prior to public dissemination.


Total BS.

The NDA that Foxx is talking about IS NIST agreeing NOT TO PUBLISH without the copyright holders agreement.


Which is why, for a meesly $14,000 you can get a copy of all the videos and pictures NIST has.

Which means they are NOT secret.

MORON

Arthur
RealityCheck
QUOTE (Sensable+Jan 29 2006, 11:44 PM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Jan 29 2006, 11:03 PM)
QUOTE (brian+Jan 29 2006, 10:46 PM)
QUOTE (Sensable+Jan 29 2006, 10:22 PM)
QUOTE (brian+Jan 29 2006, 09:54 PM)
QUOTE (Sensable+Jan 29 2006, 05:42 AM)
Something not seen in any of the internet photos of 7 I've seen is the very large gouge on the south side. I'm not talking about the 18 story gouge in the south west corner. There is a much bigger gouge in the center of the south face of the building. Something like this but worse...


Its the Bankers Trust but so what.

Anyone YET explained how such a large section of the tower REACHED this building?

Is there an answer within the official tale?

Or is Foxx right again -

"Yep... you got it... ONLY ONE PHYSICS explaination for that..."

When you can explain how a bomb pulls steel in toward it... dry.gif

No need for me to explain -"how a bomb pulls steel in toward it..."

YOUR picture of the Bankers Trust building shows very clearly that the result was large sections of the steel ended up over 600 ft away.

How can this happen?

As Foxx says -

"Yep... you got it... ONLY ONE PHYSICS explaination for that..."


Hi everyone!

I'm curious. Does anyone know from WHERE (which levels) of the tower those perimeter wall sections came? It looks like it struck the pictured building higher up and then 'cut' its way down (along with the debris it created higher up, of course). Or was there more/larger wall-section(s) involved which broke up or are out of picture?

That's it. Anyone?

Be back through here, later today. Cheers.

RC.
.

That gash doesn't go all the way up the building, RC.

Which brings up another question. How does a bomb eject debris farther and farther the lower in a building it goes.. blink.gif


Gotcha, understood Sensable. However, I should have made myself clearer about where the INCOMING debris-wall came FROM...was it walls from high in the TWIN TOWER ,or middle, or lower? I want to get a feel for whether that tower-perimeter-wall section came from the initial top-on-bottom 'crunch' and sudden compression-decompression 'burst' of glowing-hot material, gases and wall-segments; OR from lower-down SIDEWAYS blowouts (on the way down) OR when the EVEN-GREATER hot/burning rubble-mass AGAIN all came to a sudden compression-decompression 'crunching' STOP at ground level (I note that in some of the other images of the tower collapse rubble, some of the remains of the lowest perimeter-wall segments are leaning OUTWARDS as if they were 'blown' out by the final 'crunching burst' when the final compression heating/decompression happened at ground level).

If it was the 'lighter' wall segments that hit the above building, then they were flung out from the initial HOT-CRUNCH when the top collapsed (especially if the wall segments were PARTS of the TOP per se...because sudden pressure at the 'crunch' points would 'blow' these 'upwards and out' since THEY were 'covering' the crunching process at that early stage in the collapse).

And if they were 'intermediate-level' wall segments, they must have been flung out sideways by the explosive-compression/decompression pressure-waves from the intermediate collapse levels.

That's what I was trying to get a handle on, see?
RC.
.
JamesX
Schnenster,

I never said anything about your wife's race. My comment was based on the fact that she looks scared of you in your wedding pictures and I can't imagine anyone marrying you unless there was some sort of financial arrangement or other material benefit. I'm not "caucasian" myself so I don't know how I'm supposed to interpret your comments about "the right race".

If you don't like insults maybe you should have considered that when you wrote your first post on this thread. Or any point along the way.

You can dish it out but you sure can't take it, ya big crybaby.

cosmo
QUOTE
Very Interesting Video... Thanks, Schneiby.

http://65.217.248.202/911columns.wmv

Bit of a strange address, don't you think?


No, wait. Let me guess. They were just fishing around, did a google search maybe.... and BAM!!

What do you know? It's a never-before-seen, 4- second close up of the collapsing WTC, suddenly plucked from the remote nether regions of the Internet.

Very Interesting Indeed.
yesitdid
QUOTE (Schneibster+Jan 30 2006, 04:30 AM)
No idea where you got the urology link from, Faux, certainly has nothing to do with me. Guess you got persuaded by your horsepucky about how everyone posting who hates you is me. I don't do medicine, much less urology. tongue.gif

Guess you're having a bit of that paranoid psychosis crop up again.

BTW, it's perfectly obvious by your nicknaming of yesitdid that you think s/he's Jewish, and want to point it out to everyone, as if it matters. Me, I don't care. But you, you're a racist and that's the end of the conversation, you consort with racists, you use racist codewords. Your credibility here is over, and now you're going to have website problems. That's a shame, pardon me while I take a s**t in honor of your troubles.

Given that he has also referred to me as the "Yiddish dancer" he can hardly claim that Y-I-D is simply a foreshortening of Yesitdid.

Frnakly I don't care. I have nothing against Jews, I don't give a damn if anyone thinks I am of that faith, though I have informed Foxx otherwise.

If the term 'Yid' is offensive to Jews then I agree that perhaps those using that as an abbreviation of my username should change.
JamesX
PS: Break out some more of those videos. Don't be stingy.

cosmo
Even more interesting, the video has suddenly disappeared.

I guess the shill supervisor would only let them post 4 seconds of the video for a short time. Maybe if they beg their boss, they can get them to cough up a photo of the super-duper fire-proof passport.

Sensable
Now you'll have to just download the video yourself.

http://novakeo.com/?p=337

The clip is from 30:00 into part one.

So much for the gubament mens supa sercrt spy wub site. tongue.gif

It seems I used a 911 conspiracy video to prove no conspiracy. Heh!
yesitdid
Re: The Banker's Trust Building. One of the things foxx is going to point out is the condition of the facade of the building other than the gash made by the perimeter column section. He is going to say that it is burnt and that it obviously backs up Hoffman's claim of a 1000 degree 'pryoclastic flow'.

That or it could be dust and debris that hit the building and caused superficial damage.

Was it at 1000 degrees? Highly doubtful given that
this photo

shows a poster, an NYPD patrol car, a meter patrol vehicle, and a Coca-Cola delivery truck that were all close to the towers and thus in that 'pryoclastic flow' yet are quite obviously NOT scorched.

As to the perimeter column section itself not much can be said about how fast it was moving when it left the side of the tower unless one knows where it came from.

The higher up it came from the less horizontal velocity component required to get it where it ended up.
If someone would like to calculate the amount of energy required to accellerate this column to a horizontal velocity component that would get it to this position away from the tower AND claim that only explosives could do that then please also calculate the amount of explosive required to deliver that amount of energy to that column( TNT equivalent or C4 equivalent will do for comparison purposes).
metamars
QUOTE (yesitdid+Jan 30 2006, 02:32 AM)
QUOTE (metamars+Jan 28 2006, 10:16 PM)
QUOTE (yesitdid+Jan 28 2006, 07:38 PM)
Is AH the only place where you have asked for engineering comment on BZ?

A quick google search produced many engineering forums.
I did a search on two for the word 'Bazant' and this one had several hits for that word. You could try there.

This one did not return anything on WTC or Bazant but it is an engineering forum, you could ask there.


No, I have asked here, also, and discussed it briefly this past Thanksgiving with a cousin who is a professor of applied mathematics, who took his Ph.D. at the same university that Bazant did. He knew of Bazant, though he didn't know him personally.

My cousin was intrigued about the collapse of the mysterious spire, less so by my discussion of BZ. I mentioned that their model seemed to consist of rigid rods connected by springs which could also bend. (I had mistakenly melded their general notion of an elastic bottom with their assumption of plastic hinge joints). I also mistakenly mischaracterized their entire paper as employing "elastic dynamic analysis", which my cousin wasn't familiar with. (Probably because it's too simple. Doubtless, my cuz knows perturbation theory very well, and thus I expect he deals with simple vibrations and/or oscillations as a matter of course, if need be, and typically goes quite beyond this point.)

I did not have the paper with me, and we have not met or talked subsequently, on any subject. At the time, he offered no opinion about it, which is hardly surprising.

I certainly intend to discuss it further, though I'm more interested in talking to structural and civil engineers. My cuz's undergraduate background is in electrical engineering, and he probably knows less about beams than I do.

OK, I amend that to you having contacted three persons, none of which are structural engineers.

Have you posted your questions about B-Z on either of the two forums I suggested?

You asked here. Good boy, , but this is not an engineering forum. Hopefully someone at the other forums, that title themselves at least as engineering forums will have answers for you.

Now answer me this truthfully.
If an engineer or several engineers on the internet state that B-Z's analysis is valid and that the vast majority of the engineering community agrees that the buildings fell due to aircraft damage and subsequent weakening due to the ensuing fires, will you then admit that it was so?

Personally I think not. I believe that you will continue to believe that weapons from space or other some such exotic or complex and complicated mechanism was employed by a clandestine, gov't or shadow gov't organization.

I've also asked a good friend who is a Ph.D. civil engineer, to take a look, but he is extremely busy raising a very young family, and has not obliged me, even over 6 months later.

I took a quick look at those sites, but didn't get a warm fuzzy. I did a search on WTC on one, got a whole bunch of hits, but the links didn't work. The links actually listed URLs, instead of thread topics, and gave the cryptic "godfather could not be found" error message. The other forum had exactly 3 posts this month in both the civil engineering forums and structural engineering forums. Searching for "World Trade Center" produced zero hits, in either.

I also posted an article on the baut forum re Scholars for 911 Truth, and the hostile, sniping comments have started, already. These misanthropes' writings remind me of the hostile graffitti one sees in public rest rooms. They have nothing constructive to offer (so far - and I'm not holding my breath). Ironically, they seem more interested in weaving theories about "conspiracy theorists" than in trying to find the truth of something.

And besides that, I find the pretense of rationality unbearably hypocritical. My guess is that real scientists shun both wild-eyed conspiracy theorists and Amazing Randi wannabees.

Given my experiences to date, I am more interested in talking directly to Ph.D. construction engineers, face to face. That is my plan, but I am now 1 week into a new job and have only a fraction of the time I did previously, and virtually none during the week. I only got my car fixed 2 weeks ago, in anticipation of needing it for job seeking and commuting, so I will have to continue waiting until I am more settled in my job and either a business holiday comes up, which doesn't coincide with an academic holiday, or just take a day off.

==================

Your question :

"If an engineer or several engineers on the internet state that B-Z's analysis is valid and that the vast majority of the engineering community agrees that the buildings fell due to aircraft damage and subsequent weakening due to the ensuing fires, will you then admit that it was so? "

is sort of relevant, but very wrong in two respects.

Firstly, let's ignore the anomalies that scientists, and not engineers, have a better chance of answering. The question of how plausible are the FEMA/NIST "explanations" of the collapses that WTC 1 & 2 underwent on 911, ignoring the anomalies, are best answered by engineers.

I am not interested in hearing even the equivalent of an engineering Albert Einstein wave his hands and say "based on my experience, Mr. NIST must be correct" or even "based on my experience, Mr. NIST is a teller of Fairy Tales, and you are correct".

I want to know why the truth must be one way or another, and not take it on authority, which is contrary to my nature, and contrary to good scientific instincts.

This is rather problematical for my understanding of a definitive study, with finite element analysis and all, since it would doubtless be over my head. However, other of my concerns, such as my questions re BZ, if for some reason I cannot immediately understand them, with some work I will.


In considering the other, essentially non-structural engineering aspects of the collapse, you can profitably appeal to other experts. Certainly, you don't believe that a structural engineer is the optimal discipline to develop a hydrodynamic elaboration of Hoffman's dust cloud work, do you?

Even so, the same principle applies here - state your reasons and arguments for taking one position or another, and then I may change my mind. Please don't ask me to take your intuition as a basis for anything, even if we believe in similar conclusions.

FWIW, I am also resigned to the fact that I will probably never know what caused the disintegration of the spire. Never the less, the uber wierdness of it points to something far more potent that Bin Laden's boys, which the structural engineers are completely incapable of shedding any light on, and I expect most physicists are just as helpless. The few that do know, so far aren't talking.

In summary, the question you should have asked is "If a multi-disciplinary study by scientists and engineers reach a NIST-friendly conclusion, even after considering most all the "anomalies", and if the majority of the scientists and engineers who carefully reviewed their work concurred would you then change your mind?"

My answer is: "possibly, if there was not the uber wierd spire anomaly (which people seem scared to touch, including Hoffman and Jones)"

As there is the uber weird spire anomaly, unless they a) addressed the issue head on b ) came up with something that actually makes sense, I couldn't see myself accepting even a concensus opinion, since it's still based on denial.
Sensable
QUOTE (metamars+Jan 30 2006, 05:06 AM)
QUOTE (yesitdid+Jan 30 2006, 02:32 AM)
QUOTE (metamars+Jan 28 2006, 10:16 PM)
QUOTE (yesitdid+Jan 28 2006, 07:38 PM)
Is AH the only place where you have asked for engineering comment on BZ?

A quick google search produced many engineering forums.
I did a search on two for the word 'Bazant' and this one had several hits for that word. You could try there.

This one did not return anything on WTC or Bazant but it is an engineering forum, you could ask there.


No, I have asked here, also, and discussed it briefly this past Thanksgiving with a cousin who is a professor of applied mathematics, who took his Ph.D. at the same university that Bazant did. He knew of Bazant, though he didn't know him personally.

My cousin was intrigued about the collapse of the mysterious spire, less so by my discussion of BZ. I mentioned that their model seemed to consist of rigid rods connected by springs which could also bend. (I had mistakenly melded their general notion of an elastic bottom with their assumption of plastic hinge joints). I also mistakenly mischaracterized their entire paper as employing "elastic dynamic analysis", which my cousin wasn't familiar with. (Probably because it's too simple. Doubtless, my cuz knows perturbation theory very well, and thus I expect he deals with simple vibrations and/or oscillations as a matter of course, if need be, and typically goes quite beyond this point.)

I did not have the paper with me, and we have not met or talked subsequently, on any subject. At the time, he offered no opinion about it, which is hardly surprising.

I certainly intend to discuss it further, though I'm more interested in talking to structural and civil engineers. My cuz's undergraduate background is in electrical engineering, and he probably knows less about beams than I do.

OK, I amend that to you having contacted three persons, none of which are structural engineers.

Have you posted your questions about B-Z on either of the two forums I suggested?

You asked here. Good boy, , but this is not an engineering forum. Hopefully someone at the other forums, that title themselves at least as engineering forums will have answers for you.

Now answer me this truthfully.
If an engineer or several engineers on the internet state that B-Z's analysis is valid and that the vast majority of the engineering community agrees that the buildings fell due to aircraft damage and subsequent weakening due to the ensuing fires, will you then admit that it was so?

Personally I think not. I believe that you will continue to believe that weapons from space or other some such exotic or complex and complicated mechanism was employed by a clandestine, gov't or shadow gov't organization.

I've also asked a good friend who is a Ph.D. civil engineer, to take a look, but he is extremely busy raising a very young family, and has not obliged me, even over 6 months later.

I took a quick look at those sites, but didn't get a warm fuzzy. I did a search on WTC on one, got a whole bunch of hits, but the links didn't work. The links actually listed URLs, instead of thread topics, and gave the cryptic "godfather could not be found" error message. The other forum had exactly 3 posts this month in both the civil engineering forums and structural engineering forums. Searching for "World Trade Center" produced zero hits, in either.

I also posted an article on the baut forum re Scholars for 911 Truth, and the hostile, sniping comments have started, already. These misanthropes' writings remind me of the hostile graffitti one sees in public rest rooms. They have nothing constructive to offer (so far - and I'm not holding my breath). Ironically, they seem more interested in weaving theories about "conspiracy theorists" than in trying to find the truth of something.

And besides that, I find the pretense of rationality unbearably hypocritical. My guess is that real scientists shun both wild-eyed conspiracy theorists and Amazing Randi wannabees.

Given my experiences to date, I am more interested in talking directly to Ph.D. construction engineers, face to face. That is my plan, but I am now 1 week into a new job and have only a fraction of the time I did previously, and virtually none during the week. I only got my car fixed 2 weeks ago, in anticipation of needing it for job seeking and commuting, so I will have to continue waiting until I am more settled in my job and either a business holiday comes up, which doesn't coincide with an academic holiday, or just take a day off.

==================

Your question :

"If an engineer or several engineers on the internet state that B-Z's analysis is valid and that the vast majority of the engineering community agrees that the buildings fell due to aircraft damage and subsequent weakening due to the ensuing fires, will you then admit that it was so? "

is sort of relevant, but very wrong in two respects.

Firstly, let's ignore the anomalies that scientists, and not engineers, have a better chance of answering. The question of how plausible are the FEMA/NIST "explanations" of the collapses that WTC 1 & 2 underwent on 911, ignoring the anomalies, are best answered by engineers.

I am not interested in hearing even the equivalent of an engineering Albert Einstein wave his hands and say "based on my experience, Mr. NIST must be correct" or even "based on my experience, Mr. NIST is a teller of Fairy Tales, and you are correct".

I want to know why the truth must be one way or another, and not take it on authority, which is contrary to my nature, and contrary to good scientific instincts.

This is rather problematical for my understanding of a definitive study, with finite element analysis and all, since it would doubtless be over my head. However, other of my concerns, such as my questions re BZ, if for some reason I cannot immediately understand them, with some work I will.


In considering the other, essentially non-structural engineering aspects of the collapse, you can profitably appeal to other experts. Certainly, you don't believe that a structural engineer is the optimal discipline to develop a hydrodynamic elaboration of Hoffman's dust cloud work, do you?

Even so, the same principle applies here - state your reasons and arguments for taking one position or another, and then I may change my mind. Please don't ask me to take your intuition as a basis for anything, even if we believe in similar conclusions.

FWIW, I am also resigned to the fact that I will probably never know what caused the disintegration of the spire. Never the less, the uber wierdness of it points to something far more potent that Bin Laden's boys, which the structural engineers are completely incapable of shedding any light on, and I expect most physicists are just as helpless. The few that do know, so far aren't talking.

In summary, the question you should have asked is "If a multi-disciplinary study by scientists and engineers reach a NIST-friendly conclusion, even after considering most all the "anomalies", and if the majority of the scientists and engineers who carefully reviewed their work concurred would you then change your mind?"

My answer is: "possibly, if there was not the uber wierd spire anomaly (which people seem scared to touch, including Hoffman and Jones)"

As there is the uber weird spire anomaly, unless they a) addressed the issue head on b ) came up with something that actually makes sense, I couldn't see myself accepting even a concensus opinion, since it's still based on denial.

So what you're saying is even if all the professors who specialize in Structural engineering are in agreement yet you don't agree, THEY are in denial... blink.gif
yesitdid
I cannot accept Hoffman because he stipulates that the 'pryoclastic flow' had to be so damn hot yet people who were caught by the dust cloud or who hid under vehicles survived, vehicles and other objects near the towers were not scorched by this supposedly very hot cloud.

I cannot accept Hoffman because his 'energy deficit', if fulfilled by explosives, would require such an enormous quantity of explosives be distributed throughout the building.

You claim that engineering explanations cannot address the 'anomalies' yet you are quite willing it seems to accept anomalies in the theories of others. Why is that?

As for the 'spire', why is it so anomalous that it could only stand for (IIRC) 30 seconds after the rest of the building crashes down? I find nothing wrong with this highly unstable section of columns failing to keep itself upright. Is it anomalous that it did not collapse with the rest of the building? Yes, and it is also anomalous that one section of one stairwell survived and that several people lived through the collapse. Is that supposed to then be evidence that a force field of some sort was set up around them? No, it is evidence that in chaotic systems odd things can occur.
adoucette
James,

You gonna ever post ANYTHING that actually has SOMETHING to do with the topic?

Just wondering

Arthur
Foxx
QUOTE
Originally posted by Schneibster
No idea where you got the urology link from, Faux, certainly has nothing to do with me. Guess you got persuaded by your horsepucky about how everyone posting who hates you is me. I don't do medicine, much less urology.


Quite simple ol' Schneiby... to find the homepage you simply truncate the address. for example if you are looking at a page which says...

http://65.217.248.202/911columns.wmv

Then truncate that address to the first 'slash' after the 'http', you will find the 'index' or homepage of the originating website.

We're NOT talking 'rocket science' or 'quantum physics' here...

soooo... you take the above address... cut the "911columns.wmv" (after the first 'slash') and you get the 'homepage'...

http://65.217.248.202/

I don't accuse YOU of this obfuscation. Perhaps you somehow found the full address 'somewhere' and simply posted 'THAT'.

But there is definately something 'odd' about this web-address (which leads back to an Urology site - having nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11 controversies).

I suspect that if we were to contact the operators of that urology site they would be aghast that such 'information' was supposed to have originated from them....

...OR... on the other hand, the 'homepage' urology site is a false front for 'spook operators'.

It's easy enough to do.

99% of people will NOT truncate the address to find out WHO is the 'ORIGINATOR' who is disseminating the information.

It seems HIGHLY UNLIKELY that some legitimate 'urology' website would be adding a page such as the video we have witnessed.

As I said earlier, to me the video looks legit and I would not argue that it is 'fake'... the REAL question is WHERE did it REALLY originate from?

YID - with all due respect ( I will not play the Schneibster threatening game), but by posting my company website on a forum such as this... you violate the terms of agreement you signed when joining.

I don't really care... as I said I have nothing to hide, but one of the main tenants on every forum is to NOT post your own OR others personal details (apart from their consent)... actually most forums do NOT even add that disclaimer, and demand that no one post personal details of themselves or others.

At least one other poster has been 'sent to the corner' for such actions.

Please respect these 'rules', and do not bring my registered company name up again publicly.

As I have previously stated, I am quite easy to find on the web, however that is up to an individual to find me, and as I have not authorized you to publish my company name, I would appreciate if you don't publicize it again apart from my consent.

Having said that... again I say I am not ashamed of WHO I am and WHAT I do. Attack me all you like according to my words... but you will waste your time in attacking my credentials related to my company and experience in my own field.

Schneibsters wedding...my reinforced-composites company... nor your cable /internet experience has little (to NOTHING) to do with the questions at hand.

Thanks.

BTW - the abbreviation from 'Yesitdid' to Y(es)I(t)D(id) was never meant to be any kind of 'racial' (or any other kind) of 'slur'... so I apologize if it seems to have been received that way.

Nevertheless, I still intend to save some keystrokes by using that 'abbreviation' biggrin.gif

Now... how about we leave the personal issues aside and get back to the real issues, which you chaps are seeking to avoid by drifting off into 'kill the messenger' attacks biggrin.gif


Can you address my last posts intelligently, rationally, and scientifically?


Foxx
QUOTE
Originally posted by YID
Now its just a guess , based on previous posters who have done similar things, that someone concerned with this urology practice has used the server to post images concerning 9/11.


Well, it's obvious that you don't have a website or know how web-addresses work.

It has nothing to do with 'servers'.

The 'webmaster' (owner/originator) of a website makes his own specific 'address'... let's say... http://YID.com

That is the home address of the particular website. The 'owner/originator' then decides to add further 'pages' to the website... on different areas or topics...let's say a page on flying saucers. The page is then registered on the web as...

http://YID.com/flying saucers.

add a page on kangaroos and it becomes...

http://YID.com/kangaroos

NO ONE Else can make up a web-address "http://YID.com/ flying saucers" because the first address after the "http://" is registered to ONE person, and no one else can duplicate that initial address... (YID.com)

Again I say... there does not appear to me to be anything 'fishy' about the video.

I think it is excellent and shows graphically evidence of 'Controlled Demo'...

but... There IS something VERY FISHY about the address where this video originates from.

IF the Urology website owner has copied the video from another source... where did it come from?

Again... I suspect this is from the NIST 'secret' (unpublished) files.

If so... I'd really like to see ALL they have. The one video shown is definately an excellent one.




Schneibster
Still haven't the least idea why you think it has anything to do with me, being as how I didn't post it.
Coastal
QUOTE (Sensable+Jan 30 2006, 04:58 AM)
Now you'll have to just download the video yourself.

http://novakeo.com/?p=337

The clip is from 30:00 into part one.

So much for the gubament mens supa sercrt spy wub site. tongue.gif

It seems I used a 911 conspiracy video to prove no conspiracy. Heh!

Priceless!!

tongue.gif

"Secret NIST videos", indeed.

Heh....

Quit while you're behind, Foxx.
metamars
QUOTE (yesitdid+Jan 30 2006, 05:43 AM)
I cannot accept Hoffman because he stipulates that the 'pryoclastic flow' had to be so damn hot yet people who were caught by the dust cloud or who hid under vehicles survived, vehicles and other objects near the towers were not scorched by this supposedly very hot cloud.

I cannot accept Hoffman because his 'energy deficit', if fulfilled by explosives, would require such an enormous quantity of explosives be distributed throughout the building.

You claim that engineering explanations cannot address the 'anomalies' yet you are quite willing it seems to accept anomalies in the theories of others. Why is that?

As for the 'spire', why is it so anomalous that it could only stand for (IIRC) 30 seconds after the rest of the building crashes down? I find nothing wrong with this highly unstable section of columns failing to keep itself upright. Is it anomalous that it did not collapse with the rest of the building? Yes, and it is also anomalous that one section of one stairwell survived and that several people lived through the collapse. Is that supposed to then be evidence that a force field of some sort was set up around them? No, it is evidence that in chaotic systems odd things can occur.

I have already requested, TWICE, for somebody from your side to plot the height of the top every .1 second. I now do so for the THIRD time.. The absurdity of the "it just fell down" or "it just got knocked down" points of view are easy enough to illustrate. But first, we have to agree on where the spire is during it's "collapse".

Where, indeed, is it?

If you tell me where it is, perhaps I can see it also. If I can see it, also, then I can compute the speed of it's drop. Also, by comparing the height of when it was last seen to the minimum height in which it could have been seen, we can calculate it's minimum average velocity during that last frame. (We need to compute the frames per second, also.)

That's simple enough, isn't it?

metamars
QUOTE (metamars+Jan 30 2006, 10:31 AM)
QUOTE (yesitdid+Jan 30 2006, 05:43 AM)
I cannot accept Hoffman because he stipulates that the 'pryoclastic flow' had to be so damn hot yet people who were caught by the dust cloud or who hid under vehicles survived, vehicles and other objects near the towers were not scorched by this supposedly very hot cloud.

I cannot accept Hoffman because his 'energy deficit', if fulfilled by explosives, would require such an enormous quantity of explosives be distributed throughout the building.

You claim that engineering explanations cannot address the 'anomalies' yet you are quite willing it seems to accept anomalies in the theories of others. Why is that?

As for the 'spire', why is it so anomalous that it could only stand for (IIRC) 30 seconds after the rest of the building crashes down? I find nothing wrong with this highly unstable section of columns failing to keep itself upright. Is it anomalous that it did not collapse with the rest of the building? Yes, and it is also anomalous that one section of one stairwell survived and that several people lived through the collapse. Is that supposed to then be evidence that a force field of some sort was set up around them? No, it is evidence that in chaotic systems odd things can occur.

I have already requested, TWICE, for somebody from your side to plot the height of the top every .1 second. I now do so for the THIRD time.. The absurdity of the "it just fell down" or "it just got knocked down" points of view are easy enough to illustrate. But first, we have to agree on where the spire is during it's "collapse".

Where, indeed, is it?

If you tell me where it is, perhaps I can see it also. If I can see it, also, then I can compute the speed of it's drop. Also, by comparing the height of when it was last seen to the minimum height in which it could have been seen, we can calculate it's minimum average velocity during that last frame. (We need to compute the frames per second, also.)

That's simple enough, isn't it?

Just to make it perfectly clear, you need to use a video that shows most of the spire. We are trying to establish a minimum downwards velocity during the frame just after it was last visible, therefore we want to be able to see the maximum amount of the distance that the top must have tranversed during that part of the "collapse"

We also want to establish it's position at that point. I have described the collapse as telescoping. Let's verify or debunk that description.

Of course, we also want to produce a graph of the top's downward velocity as a function of time, and see if we notice anything unphysical.

Schneibster
OK, Foxx, I admit that you have apologized handsomely, and successfully disassociated yourself. You get some cred for that. You edited it twice, too. It bespeaks a certain sensitivity that I haven't seen in you before now.

I hope we can put all this personal crap behind us; you could start, if you're serious, by admitting that everyone who doesn't like you isn't me. If I post something here, and I have said this before, it will be under this very id. You have made a serious error of judgement in assuming that any other poster is me. I simply don't do that. If I have something to say, I say it, and that's that. If it wasn't posted by Schneibster, it wasn't me. Period. You might try asking questions of the person who posted it. You might also want to consider whether you might be getting just a little paranoid there. Considering your experiences today, I'd say you'd have little question as to precisely who I am and am not.

I note that the image that had been removed has returned. You either are a man of your word, or you are not. It is possible that it was returned without your knowledge or desire by a restore from backup, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt; please ensure that it's gone tomorrow.

QUOTE (Foxx+)
As the 'info-wars' heat-up, people on opposing sides tend to get a little 'agitated', and I have received a PM from the great Schneibster... I am honoured! biggrin.gif

QUOTE
Entitled - 'My Property'
Kindly remove my property from your web site before I have it shut down for copyright violation. You expressly do not have permission. You have been duly informed.


Hey, 'Schneiby'... no problem and thanks for your PM.
Sure. Be sure and let your site provider know you have complied- and be sure you do comply, I'd hate to have it interfere with your business.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Entitled - 'My Property'
Kindly remove my property from your web site before I have it shut down for copyright violation. You expressly do not have permission. You have been duly informed.


Hey, 'Schneiby'... no problem and thanks for your PM.
Sure. Be sure and let your site provider know you have complied- and be sure you do comply, I'd hate to have it interfere with your business.

You certainly don't want public access to your bedroom on the public internet ( unless you are into porn or something).
Actually, it's a picture of the old bed- which was up for sale. The photographs were there so that they could be linked to in the on-line advertisement. I neglected to take them down, simple as that.

QUOTE (Foxx+)
If you find any copyright pictures on my web-page, please feel free to inform me, and they will be removed, as per your request. My website can be found at...
I think you might be just a little eensy bit hedging there, don't you, Foxx? I'm not revealing anything about that, ahhhh... other site, you know the one. You'll be wisest to take care of things over there, too, since I'm sure they'll be linking the two accounts. Like I said, I'd hate to see your business affected, old man. And whether you take it down, or they do, it's coming down, and that's a fact.
JamesX
QUOTE (Schneibster+Jan 30 2006, 11:37 AM)
If I post something here, and I have said this before, it will be under this very id. You have made a serious error of judgement in assuming that any other poster is me. I simply don't do that. If I have something to say, I say it, and that's that. If it wasn't posted by Schneibster, it wasn't me. Period.


I don't buy it.


adoucette
QUOTE (metamars+Jan 30 2006, 06:31 AM)
I have already requested, TWICE, for somebody from your side to plot the height of the top every .1 second. I now do so for the THIRD time.. The absurdity of the "it just fell down" or "it just got knocked down" points of view are easy enough to illustrate. But first, we have to agree on where the spire is during it's "collapse".

Where, indeed, is it?

If you tell me where it is, perhaps I can see it also. If I can see it, also, then I can compute the speed of it's drop. Also, by comparing the height of when it was last seen to the minimum height in which it could have been seen, we can calculate it's minimum average velocity during that last frame. (We need to compute the frames per second, also.)

That's simple enough, isn't it?

YOU are the one claiming this absurd BS that the Spire was "powderized".

Since there is NO KNOWN WAY TO POWDERIZE the Spire, its up to YOU to prove it.

And, since its SO SIMPLE, as you say, then do it, or quit the handwaving.

Arthur
brian
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Jan 30 2006, 03:56 AM)
QUOTE (Sensable+Jan 29 2006, 11:44 PM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Jan 29 2006, 11:03 PM)
QUOTE (brian+Jan 29 2006, 10:46 PM)
QUOTE (Sensable+Jan 29 2006, 10:22 PM)
QUOTE (brian+Jan 29 2006, 09:54 PM)
QUOTE (Sensable+Jan 29 2006, 05:42 AM)
Something not seen in any of the internet photos of 7 I've seen is the very large gouge on the south side. I'm not talking about the 18 story gouge in the south west corner. There is a much bigger gouge in the center of the south face of the building. Something like this but worse...


Its the Bankers Trust but so what.

Anyone YET explained how such a large section of the tower REACHED this building?

Is there an answer within the official tale?

Or is Foxx right again -

"Yep... you got it... ONLY ONE PHYSICS explaination for that..."

When you can explain how a bomb pulls steel in toward it... dry.gif

No need for me to explain -"how a bomb pulls steel in toward it..."

YOUR picture of the Bankers Trust building shows very clearly that the result was large sections of the steel ended up over 600 ft away.

How can this happen?

As Foxx says -

"Yep... you got it... ONLY ONE PHYSICS explaination for that..."


Hi everyone!

I'm curious. Does anyone know from WHERE (which levels) of the tower those perimeter wall sections came? It looks like it struck the pictured building higher up and then 'cut' its way down (along with the debris it created higher up, of course). Or was there more/larger wall-section(s) involved which broke up or are out of picture?

That's it. Anyone?

Be back through here, later today. Cheers.

RC.
.

That gash doesn't go all the way up the building, RC.

Which brings up another question. How does a bomb eject debris farther and farther the lower in a building it goes.. blink.gif


Gotcha, understood Sensable. However, I should have made myself clearer about where the INCOMING debris-wall came FROM...was it walls from high in the TWIN TOWER ,or middle, or lower? I want to get a feel for whether that tower-perimeter-wall section came from the initial top-on-bottom 'crunch' and sudden compression-decompression 'burst' of glowing-hot material, gases and wall-segments; OR from lower-down SIDEWAYS blowouts (on the way down) OR when the EVEN-GREATER hot/burning rubble-mass AGAIN all came to a sudden compression-decompression 'crunching' STOP at ground level (I note that in some of the other images of the tower collapse rubble, some of the remains of the lowest perimeter-wall segments are leaning OUTWARDS as if they were 'blown' out by the final 'crunching burst' when the final compression heating/decompression happened at ground level).

If it was the 'lighter' wall segments that hit the above building, then they were flung out from the initial HOT-CRUNCH when the top collapsed (especially if the wall segments were PARTS of the TOP per se...because sudden pressure at the 'crunch' points would 'blow' these 'upwards and out' since THEY were 'covering' the crunching process at that early stage in the collapse).

And if they were 'intermediate-level' wall segments, they must have been flung out sideways by the explosive-compression/decompression pressure-waves from the intermediate collapse levels.

That's what I was trying to get a handle on, see?
RC.
.

Reality Check, what about this theory that answers some other anomolies?



IF the highjackers were Sufi muslims this would go some ways explain their drinking, strip clubbing and generally bizzare behaviour not fitting the picture of muslim extremists.

Sufis are also known as the Whirling Dervishes so if if they continued DERVISHLEY WHIRLING after the crash the CENTRIFUGAL FORCES coupled with your HOT CRUNCH would explain the large sections of steel being thrown 600ft or MORE.

AND, it could even explain the passport.

This physics lark is easy peasy.
Sensable
WOW, I think we hit a nerve. Did you see the way the circus came to town after I posted that video Schneibster? It's like a VW bug opened the door and out spilled the clowns. Heh!

Sad to see the response to that video go so low. I know one thing, these guys are no liberals.

I still laugh though. There's just something about clowns that make you laugh no matter how LAME they are. Maybe because it's one of the few times you laugh at someone instead of with them.

The whole issue about where I get my information is nothing more than a bunny pancake.

user posted image

If the video's not fake it doesn't matter if Bush himself posted the video does it. blink.gif
Sensable
QUOTE (brian+Jan 30 2006, 01:53 PM)
IF the highjackers were Sufi muslims this would go some ways explain their drinking, strip clubbing and generally bizzare behaviour not fitting the picture of muslim extremists.

Makes perfect sense to me. Make them horny then tell them 72 virgins are waiting for them in paradise if they do this one thing. Yep, makes perfect sense to me.

Than again trying to understand the logic of someone who would fly a plane into a building is not something I think I can do. huh.gif
adoucette
QUOTE (brian+Jan 30 2006, 09:53 AM)
IF the highjackers were Sufi muslims this would go some ways explain their drinking, strip clubbing and generally bizzare behaviour not fitting the picture of muslim extremists.



Well, if you are a Muslim Terrorist set to commit the largest crime of the Century the next day, maybe doing something that would make anyone watching you conclude YOU WEREN'T a muslim terrorist, would be PART OF THE PLAN.

Since you were making the ultimate sacrifice for Allah, you know he would forgive you a lap dance or two, considering your ultimate reward is 72 Virgins.

Arthur

frater plecticus
HAROLD PINTER SPEECH VIDEO

Harold Pinter, Britain's greatest living playwright, was awarded the
Nobel Prize for Literature on 7 December. Pinter's award was largely
ignored by the mainstream tv and radio networks, as was his
exceptionally powerful acceptance speech. Pointedly, Pinter said in his
speech,

"A silence has reigned across the world, the extinction and
suffering of countless human beings can be attributed to rampant
American power but you wouldn't know it. It never happened. Nothing ever
happened. Even while it was happening it wasn't happening. It didn't
matter. It was of no interest."


YOU CAN NOW VIEW AND HEAR PINTER'S FULL SPEECH ONLINE AT:

http://nobelprize.org/literature/laureates...er-lecture.html

TONY BENN'S OPEN LETTER

Tony Benn and forty-three others, including Rose Gentle, Reg Keys,
Harold Pinter, and Michael Mansfield QC have sent a letter to the United
Nations and to the UK Attorney General asking them to investigate
breaches of the Nuremberg Charter and Geneva and Hague Conventions
during the Iraq War, and to bring those responsible to account. The UK
is obliged as a Signatory to the Conventions to investigate these
charges. Everyone who wishes to support this initiative can add their
name as a supplementary signatory and many hundreds have already
responded by email or post to Stop the War Coalition.
FOR FULL DETAILS OF TONY BENN'S SUBMISSION AND HOW TO ADD YOUR NAME GO
TO: http://www.stopwar.org.uk/Bennletter.htm


MAKING "GREAT PROGRESS" IN IRAQ

"I think we're making great progress in Iraq," said George Bush last
Thursday - the day 11 US soldiers died, one of the highest daily totals
in one of the bloodiest weeks since the war began nearly three years
ago, with hundreds of Iraqi civilians killed.

As well as the daily toll of death and destruction, most of Iraq has
only a few hours of electricity a day and for many Iraqis the sewage and
water systems barely function at all. Public services have collapsed,
with Iraq's health service -- once the best in the Arab world --
virtually destroyed. Unemployment is over 50 per cent and 8 per cent of
Iraqi children suffer acute malnutrition. Oil production is running at
half what it was before the war.
Guest_Steve
RE: Schneibster

Come on now, comments about one's motivation and state of mind are one thing, but attacking someone's family and making comments about their physical health is OUT OF LINE! sad.gif
brian
QUOTE (adoucette+Jan 30 2006, 02:22 PM)
QUOTE (brian+Jan 30 2006, 09:53 AM)
IF the highjackers were Sufi muslims this would go some ways explain their drinking, strip clubbing and generally bizzare behaviour not fitting the picture of muslim extremists.



Well, if you are a Muslim Terrorist set to commit the largest crime of the Century the next day, maybe doing something that would make anyone watching you conclude YOU WEREN'T a muslim terrorist, would be PART OF THE PLAN.

Since you were making the ultimate sacrifice for Allah, you know he would forgive you a lap dance or two, considering your ultimate reward is 72 Virgins.

Arthur

Here, Reality Check and Arthur have all the answers.


-"maybe doing something that would make anyone watching you conclude YOU WEREN'T a muslim terrorist, would be PART OF THE PLAN."

Yep, that explains why they meanderd around in the best defended air space on the planet for so long - they fooled everyone into thinking they were just out for a joy ride and it was thought no point in alarming the Defence Secretary or NORAD, just let them have their fun they will come down when they get fed up.

The cunning of them eh, or -

9/11: Have we been lied to?

An article in preparation by members of Scholars for 9/11 Truth
January 2006

http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/MorphJ20.doc



adoucette
QUOTE (JamesX+Jan 30 2006, 07:59 AM)
QUOTE (Schneibster+Jan 30 2006, 11:37 AM)
If I post something here, and I have said this before, it will be under this very id. You have made a serious error of judgement in assuming that any other poster is me. I simply don't do that. If I have something to say, I say it, and that's that. If it wasn't posted by Schneibster, it wasn't me. Period.


I don't buy it.

James,

Almost every one of your posts is directed to or at Schneibster.

Your just like the young boys who tease the girls on the playground, pretending not to like them.

Its obvious you seek Schneibster's attention but I really don't think he wants to date you.

Arthur

Foxx
QUOTE
by Schneibster
I note that the image that had been removed has returned. You either are a man of your word, or you are not. It is possible that it was returned without your knowledge or desire by a restore from backup, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt;


No one can put something on my website except me, Schneiby...(well... except some clever hacker, I suppose). I don't have time for your bs right now as I'm on my way out the door to work. I have no idea what photo you are referring to, and I am completely unconcerned with your mock threats. However, as I said, if you are claiming a copyright to any image on my site, give me the properties of that image, and I have no problem in removing it. The 'puppets lined up on the bed' photo was removed...it kinda made me sick anyway. Are you claiming copyright to some other image? If so... which one ...on what page?

Later
Sensable
QUOTE (adoucette+Jan 30 2006, 03:17 PM)
QUOTE (JamesX+Jan 30 2006, 07:59 AM)
QUOTE (Schneibster+Jan 30 2006, 11:37 AM)
If I post something here, and I have said this before, it will be under this very id. You have made a serious error of judgement in assuming that any other poster is me. I simply don't do that. If I have something to say, I say it, and that's that. If it wasn't posted by Schneibster, it wasn't me. Period.


I don't buy it.

James,

Almost every one of your posts is directed to or at Schneibster.

Your just like the young boys who tease the girls on the playground, pretending not to like them.

Its obvious you seek Schneibster's attention but I really don't think he wants to date you.

Arthur

You noticed that too. Apparently the internet is (X)'s Brokeback Mountain. Heh!
adoucette
QUOTE
Yep, that explains why they meanderd around in the best defended air space on the planet for so long - they fooled everyone into thinking they were just out for a joy ride and it was thought no point in alarming the Defence Secretary or NORAD, just let them have their fun they will come down when they get fed up.


Our air space defense was based on intercepting Russian Bombers coming over seas and over the North Pole (Shortest route).

Which is why NORAD's Radars face out.
Which is why NORAD and the FAA radars are not in synch
Which is why the FAA can not talk directly to a Fighter Jock.
Which is why the FAA can not easily direct a fighter to a specific plane
Which is why US commercial aircraft flying in the US do not use IFF codes
Which is why our fighters do not have a way of displaying the transponder code of US aircraft. Which means you have to be DAMN close to a US commercial jet to identify it by the SMALL FAA assigned aircraft ID. And in the busy airspace around NYC the many 737s, 757s, 767s and A300s would all look almost identical unless you are pretty close, say less than a mile or so.
Which is why the ATC system is designed based on COMPLIANCE with procedures and when a plane purposefully doesn't comply, the system is not designed to track it anyway.
Which is why in the NORAD standard procedures (on 9/11) the only thing the USAF provides to the FAA is a jet to join up with the Hijacked plane, and then ONLY if priorities allow.
Which is why to the FAA, the first priority when handling a flight deviating into the very busy NY airspace, that is not responding to ATC commands is NOT to notify NORAD, but to try to contact the aircraft on other frequencies and secondly to clear the airspace the craft is heading into and third to divert all other aircraft and forth to notify local towers that they have a potential emergency and fifth to contact the company and see if the company can raise the aircraft on internal communication channels.
Which is why even WHEN the ATC is CERTAIN it has a hijacking its procedures are not to contact NORAD directly but to contact the FAA Hijack Coordinator who then contacts NORAD, if it is deemed necessary.
Which is why EVEN IF a fighter could have been launched fast enough from OTIS air base on Cape Cod to get to NYC before the 2nd jet (no chance at all on the first jet) it STILL couldn't shoot it down as no rules of engagement allowed such an action and even if the pilot decided on his own to shoot it down his chances of actually figuring out which of the hundreds of aircraft in the area were his target would be very slim.
Considering the closing rate the 767 had on the towers, the chance of an F/15 identifing the target jet and, even at top speed, getting BEHIND the jet in order to fire one of his heat seeking missiles (they wouldn't lock on in anything but a rear attack profile) in time to stop it from hitting the towers would be something even Luke Skywalker would be unlikely to accomplish, with or without the FORCE.

Arthur
adoucette
QUOTE (Sensable+Jan 30 2006, 11:35 AM)
You noticed that too. Aparently the internet is (X)'s Brokeback Mountain. Heh!

Apparently

laugh.gif
Mel
QUOTE (Sensable+Jan 30 2006, 04:58 AM)
Now you'll have to just download the video yourself.

http://novakeo.com/?p=337

The clip is from 30:00 into part one.

So much for the gubament mens supa sercrt spy wub site. tongue.gif

It seems I used a 911 conspiracy video to prove no conspiracy. Heh!

How did this little clip end up at such a strange address? Perhaps it was put there as part of an IP fishing expedition? People click the link, and behold, you now have the IP address the request was made from.

Again, how did the clip get there, and how did you find the link to it? Let me repeat this question: how did the clip get there, and how did you find the link to it?

Awaiting your reply.

Sensable
QUOTE (Mel+Jan 30 2006, 04:18 PM)
QUOTE (Sensable+Jan 30 2006, 04:58 AM)
Now you'll have to just download the video yourself.

http://novakeo.com/?p=337

The clip is from 30:00 into part one.

So much for the gubament mens supa sercrt spy wub site. tongue.gif

It seems I used a 911 conspiracy video to prove no conspiracy. Heh!

How did this little clip end up at such a strange address? Perhaps it was put there as part of an IP fishing expedition? People click the link, and behold, you now have the IP address the request was made from.

Again, how did the clip get there, and how did you find the link to it? Let me repeat this question: how did the clip get there, and how did you find the link to it?

Awaiting your reply.

I don't answer stupid questions or stupid people. It's beneath me.

/me adds mel to growing ignore list.

Get help
Guest_Mel
QUOTE (Sensable+Jan 30 2006, 04:38 PM)
QUOTE (Mel+Jan 30 2006, 04:18 PM)
QUOTE (Sensable+Jan 30 2006, 04:58 AM)
Now you'll have to just download the video yourself.

http://novakeo.com/?p=337

The clip is from 30:00 into part one.

So much for the gubament mens supa sercrt spy wub site. tongue.gif

It seems I used a 911 conspiracy video to prove no conspiracy. Heh!

How did this little clip end up at such a strange address? Perhaps it was put there as part of an IP fishing expedition? People click the link, and behold, you now have the IP address the request was made from.

Again, how did the clip get there, and how did you find the link to it? Let me repeat this question: how did the clip get there, and how did you find the link to it?

Awaiting your reply.

I don't answer stupid questions or stupid people. It's beneath me.

/me adds mel to growing ignore list.

Get help

That's all the answer we need.
reasonwhy
Isn’t threatening to axe someone on an internet forum breaking the rules or possible the law? Schneibster did it last night then 2 pages from the thread were removed with my post questioning Schneibster. I still have the quote were he threatened to axe Foxx if he touched anything of his.

If I am breaking any rule talking about the treads that were removed I apologize it just is really strange.
yesitdid
QUOTE (metamars+Jan 30 2006, 11:20 AM)
QUOTE (metamars+Jan 30 2006, 10:31 AM)
QUOTE (yesitdid+Jan 30 2006, 05:43 AM)
I cannot accept Hoffman because he stipulates that the 'pryoclastic flow' had to be so damn hot yet people who were caught by the dust cloud or who hid under vehicles survived, vehicles and other objects near the towers were not scorched by this supposedly very hot cloud.

I cannot accept Hoffman because his 'energy deficit', if fulfilled by explosives, would require such an enormous quantity of explosives be distributed throughout the building.

You claim that engineering explanations cannot address the 'anomalies' yet you are quite willing it seems to accept anomalies in the theories of others. Why is that?

As for the 'spire', why is it so anomalous that it could only stand for (IIRC) 30 seconds after the rest of the building crashes down? I find nothing wrong with this highly unstable section of columns failing to keep itself upright. Is it anomalous that it did not collapse with the rest of the building? Yes, and it is also anomalous that one section of one stairwell survived and that several people lived through the collapse. Is that supposed to then be evidence that a force field of some sort was set up around them? No, it is evidence that in chaotic systems odd things can occur.

I have already requested, TWICE, for somebody from your side to plot the height of the top every .1 second. I now do so for the THIRD time.. The absurdity of the "it just fell down" or "it just got knocked down" points of view are easy enough to illustrate. But first, we have to agree on where the spire is during it's "collapse".

Where, indeed, is it?

If you tell me where it is, perhaps I can see it also. If I can see it, also, then I can compute the speed of it's drop. Also, by comparing the height of when it was last seen to the minimum height in which it could have been seen, we can calculate it's minimum average velocity during that last frame. (We need to compute the frames per second, also.)

That's simple enough, isn't it?

Just to make it perfectly clear, you need to use a video that shows most of the spire. We are trying to establish a minimum downwards velocity during the frame just after it was last visible, therefore we want to be able to see the maximum amount of the distance that the top must have tranversed during that part of the "collapse"

We also want to establish it's position at that point. I have described the collapse as telescoping. Let's verify or debunk that description.

Of course, we also want to produce a graph of the top's downward velocity as a function of time, and see if we notice anything unphysical.

That certainly is not clear.

Are you asking for the speed of the collapse of the spire or of the top of the building?

Nevertheless, what does the speed of the collapse of the spire have to do with anything? I am stating that the portion of the building that remained standing, which is known as the 'spire' could not possibly continue to remain standing for long due to its inherent unstablity. You have said before that it looks to be a portion of the perimeter columns. That would make it essentially a two dimensional tall structure in that it would have no lateral support in a direction perpendicular to the perimeter columns. The very top part of said spire is a lone column, essentially a one dimension column with no lateral support in any direction. However for there to be such a lone column it would have to have been stripped of the other columns and wide braces of that perimeter section. That means a LOT of buffeting and since those welds were snapped one can hardly assume that the lone weld holing that top of the spire onto the rest is in perfect condition.

You seem to be concentrating on the fact that the steel of the 'spire' is difficult to make out as it collapses. So what? You are looking at magnified video shot from a long ways off, through dust and smoke of the building collpase and as the 'spire' falls it too sheds dust further obscuring the sightline to the actual steel.

Rather than believe that the problem is optics or obscuring dust you wish people to believe that some type of weapon must have turned the spire to dust. That is way too sci-fi for me.(the operative bit there is that the 'fi' in sci-fi stands for 'fiction'.
adoucette
You can see the spire from a different angle in the Second Video on this site.

You can also see that the second tower has a two (or three) phase collapse. There is the obvious collapse at the point of the fire. This proceeds down the tower till about midway, with external material clearly falling much faster than the towers. Then there is a slight hesitation and then apparently the core fails as a second piece falling in the center of the mass sends things flying out from the towers with much greater force than before. Here you can see the material that gets the WTC 7 building and I believe the Bankers Trust building. You then see a portion of the core fall off to the left well after the towers have collapsed and then you see the spire on the right. In this angle its fall is pretty clear and there is no "powderization".

The other thing that is OBVIOUS from this Video of the second tower is the MASSIVE amount of heat being given off by the fire (what's happening in the first tower is less clear in these videos because the view is obscured by WTC 2).

In contrast to Huffmans' supposed pyroclastic flow, where the debris cloud from the fall does not RISE as a hot cloud would, the huge roiling smoke cloud coming off the second tower is CLEAR evidence for a VERY HOT fire. This fire goes on and on and its clear that the fire is building as the volume and speed of vertical movement of the smoke clouds gets more intense as the collapses nears.

So much for Foxx's 'nearly out' fires.

Arthur
brian
QUOTE (adoucette+Jan 30 2006, 03:37 PM)
QUOTE
Yep, that explains why they meanderd around in the best defended air space on the planet for so long - they fooled everyone into thinking they were just out for a joy ride and it was thought no point in alarming the Defence Secretary or NORAD, just let them have their fun they will come down when they get fed up.


Our air space defense was based on intercepting Russian Bombers coming over seas and over the North Pole (Shortest route).

Which is why NORAD's Radars face out.
Which is why NORAD and the FAA radars are not in synch
Which is why the FAA can not talk directly to a Fighter Jock.
Which is why the FAA can not easily direct a fighter to a specific plane
Which is why US commercial aircraft flying in the US do not use IFF codes
Which is why our fighters do not have a way of displaying the transponder code of US aircraft. Which means you have to be DAMN close to a US commercial jet to identify it by the SMALL FAA assigned aircraft ID. And in the busy airspace around NYC the many 737s, 757s, 767s and A300s would all look almost identical unless you are pretty close, say less than a mile or so.
Which is why the ATC system is designed based on COMPLIANCE with procedures and when a plane purposefully doesn't comply, the system is not designed to track it anyway.
Which is why in the NORAD standard procedures (on 9/11) the only thing the USAF provides to the FAA is a jet to join up with the Hijacked plane, and then ONLY if priorities allow.
Which is why to the FAA, the first priority when handling a flight deviating into the very busy NY airspace, that is not responding to ATC commands is NOT to notify NORAD, but to try to contact the aircraft on other frequencies and secondly to clear the airspace the craft is heading into and third to divert all other aircraft and forth to notify local towers that they have a potential emergency and fifth to contact the company and see if the company can raise the aircraft on internal communication channels.
Which is why even WHEN the ATC is CERTAIN it has a hijacking its procedures are not to contact NORAD directly but to contact the FAA Hijack Coordinator who then contacts NORAD, if it is deemed necessary.
Which is why EVEN IF a fighter could have been launched fast enough from OTIS air base on Cape Cod to get to NYC before the 2nd jet (no chance at all on the first jet) it STILL couldn't shoot it down as no rules of engagement allowed such an action and even if the pilot decided on his own to shoot it down his chances of actually figuring out which of the hundreds of aircraft in the area were his target would be very slim.
Considering the closing rate the 767 had on the towers, the chance of an F/15 identifing the target jet and, even at top speed, getting BEHIND the jet in order to fire one of his heat seeking missiles (they wouldn't lock on in anything but a rear attack profile) in time to stop it from hitting the towers would be something even Luke Skywalker would be unlikely to accomplish, with or without the FORCE.

Arthur

Disinfo 101 - When all else fails then quantity rather than quality is best tactic.



"The scrambling of fighter aircraft at the first sign of trouble is a routine phenomenon. In the year period before 9/11, fighters were scrambled 67 times.
[AP, 8/13/02]"

"Thus, beginning in June 2001, the Secretary of Defense (Donald Rumsfeld) was the one civilian who had to approve requests for scrambling intercept-planes. For any and all requests for air-defense approval had to come – no longer from military commanders in the field—but from the Secretary of Defense, Rumsfeld."


"Note that one man placed in a key position to authorize – or not -- deployment of military jets for intercepting errant aircraft could also stop the system. One man. It would not take a large “conspiracy” to do so."

http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/MorphJ20.doc

Did al Quaeda lobby for Rumsfeld? If you dont want planes scrambled appoint a scrambled man.

The Unknown
As we know,
There are known knowns.
There are things we know we know.
We also know
There are known unknowns.
That is to say
We know there are some things
We do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns,
The ones we don't know
We don't know.

Rumsfeld—Feb. 12, 2002, Department of Defense news briefing

"Known knowns"

"It is already possible to know, beyond a reasonable doubt, one very important thing: the destruction of the World Trade Centre was an inside job, orchestrated by terrorists within our own government."

Dr David Ray Griffin, author of "The New Pearl Harbour", at a lecture to capacity crowds in New York .




Sensable
QUOTE (brian+Jan 30 2006, 06:09 PM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Jan 30 2006, 03:37 PM)
QUOTE
Yep, that explains why they meanderd around in the best defended air space on the planet for so long - they fooled everyone into thinking they were just out for a joy ride and it was thought no point in alarming the Defence Secretary or NORAD, just let them have their fun they will come down when they get fed up.


Our air space defense was based on intercepting Russian Bombers coming over seas and over the North Pole (Shortest route).

Which is why NORAD's Radars face out.
Which is why NORAD and the FAA radars are not in synch
Which is why the FAA can not talk directly to a Fighter Jock.
Which is why the FAA can not easily direct a fighter to a specific plane
Which is why US commercial aircraft flying in the US do not use IFF codes
Which is why our fighters do not have a way of displaying the transponder code of US aircraft. Which means you have to be DAMN close to a US commercial jet to identify it by the SMALL FAA assigned aircraft ID. And in the busy airspace around NYC the many 737s, 757s, 767s and A300s would all look almost identical unless you are pretty close, say less than a mile or so.
Which is why the ATC system is designed based on COMPLIANCE with procedures and when a plane purposefully doesn't comply, the system is not designed to track it anyway.
Which is why in the NORAD standard procedures (on 9/11) the only thing the USAF provides to the FAA is a jet to join up with the Hijacked plane, and then ONLY if priorities allow.
Which is why to the FAA, the first priority when handling a flight deviating into the very busy NY airspace, that is not responding to ATC commands is NOT to notify NORAD, but to try to contact the aircraft on other frequencies and secondly to clear the airspace the craft is heading into and third to divert all other aircraft and forth to notify local towers that they have a potential emergency and fifth to contact the company and see if the company can raise the aircraft on internal communication channels.
Which is why even WHEN the ATC is CERTAIN it has a hijacking its procedures are not to contact NORAD directly but to contact the FAA Hijack Coordinator who then contacts NORAD, if it is deemed necessary.
Which is why EVEN IF a fighter could have been launched fast enough from OTIS air base on Cape Cod to get to NYC before the 2nd jet (no chance at all on the first jet) it STILL couldn't shoot it down as no rules of engagement allowed such an action and even if the pilot decided on his own to shoot it down his chances of actually figuring out which of the hundreds of aircraft in the area were his target would be very slim.
Considering the closing rate the 767 had on the towers, the chance of an F/15 identifing the target jet and, even at top speed, getting BEHIND the jet in order to fire one of his heat seeking missiles (they wouldn't lock on in anything but a rear attack profile) in time to stop it from hitting the towers would be something even Luke Skywalker would be unlikely to accomplish, with or without the FORCE.

Arthur

Disinfo 101 - When all else fails then quantity rather than quality is best tactic.



"The scrambling of fighter aircraft at the first sign of trouble is a routine phenomenon. In the year period before 9/11, fighters were scrambled 67 times.
[AP, 8/13/02]"

"Thus, beginning in June 2001, the Secretary of Defense (Donald Rumsfeld) was the one civilian who had to approve requests for scrambling intercept-planes. For any and all requests for air-defense approval had to come – no longer from military commanders in the field—but from the Secretary of Defense, Rumsfeld."


"Note that one man placed in a key position to authorize – or not -- deployment of military jets for intercepting errant aircraft could also stop the system. One man. It would not take a large “conspiracy” to do so."

http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/MorphJ20.doc

Did al Quaeda lobby for Rumsfeld? If you dont want planes scrambled appoint a scrambled man.

The Unknown
As we know,
There are known knowns.
There are things we know we know.
We also know
There are known unknowns.
That is to say
We know there are some things
We do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns,
The ones we don't know
We don't know.

Rumsfeld—Feb. 12, 2002, Department of Defense news briefing

"Known knowns"

"It is already possible to know, beyond a reasonable doubt, one very important thing: the destruction of the World Trade Centre was an inside job, orchestrated by terrorists within our own government."

Dr David Ray Griffin, author of "The New Pearl Harbour", at a lecture to capacity crowds in New York .

All that could be true and the towers could have still fallen without explosives. So what's your point. That you think David Griffin is God?
adoucette
QUOTE (brian+Jan 30 2006, 02:09 PM)



"The scrambling of fighter aircraft at the first sign of trouble is a routine phenomenon. In the year period before 9/11, fighters were scrambled 67 times.
[AP, 8/13/02]"

"Thus, beginning in June 2001, the Secretary of Defense (Donald Rumsfeld) was the one civilian who had to approve requests for scrambling intercept-planes. For any and all requests for air-defense approval had to come – no longer from military commanders in the field—but from the Secretary of Defense, Rumsfeld."


"Note that one man placed in a key position to authorize – or not -- deployment of military jets for intercepting errant aircraft could also stop the system. One man. It would not take a large “conspiracy” to do so."

http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/MorphJ20.doc


BS.

The Otis fighters were scrambled without Rumsfeld. The procedures allowed military commanders quite a bit of discretion, and the June changes had nothing to do with making Rumsfeld the sole point of coordination.

Procedures in affect that day:

http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/cjcsd/cjcsi/3610_01a.pdf

The changes to this release had nothing to do with making Rumsfeld the sole point of coordination:

7. Summary of Changes
a. Unmanned vehicles (UAV, ROV) added to the description of
possible derelict airborne objects.
b. Statutory Authority for Responding to Aircraft Piracy enclosure
removed and added to reference list. <== NOTE NOT CHANGED JUST MOVED.
c. In various places throughout the document, “USELEMNORAD” was
replaced with “NORAD.”
d. FAA Order 7610.4J, 3 November 1998, “Special Military
Operations,” was added as a reference.

What the procedures DO SAY about what the military role is and what they will not do:

3. Procedures
a. General. Military personnel will provide the following types of
support: intercept, surveillance, lift, equipment, and communications.
Military personnel may not participate in a search, seizure, arrest, or
other similar activity. This restriction would include the apprehension
of aircraft hijackers or use of military aircraft (fixed-wing or helicopter)
or other vehicles as platforms for gunfire or the use of other weapons
against suspected hijackers.
In addition, assistance may not be
provided under this enclosure if it could adversely affect national
security or military preparedness..


So what is CLEAR is there was NO AUTHORIZATION to FIRE UPON a civilian aircraft.

That came LATER that day, but that morning, it didn't matter how long it took, they were NOT authorized to fire upon a civilian jet.

The point is quite simple, the first aircraft would NEVER have been shot down under ANY scenario.

There was not sufficient time between the first and second aircraft to prevent its mission, even IF the preceding paragraph had been rescinded (which of course, prior to the SECOND crash would not even be considered, i.e first crash is assumed to be an accident until the second crash.)

Arthur
brian
QUOTE (adoucette+Jan 30 2006, 06:38 PM)
QUOTE (brian+Jan 30 2006, 02:09 PM)



"The scrambling of fighter aircraft at the first sign of trouble is a routine phenomenon. In the year period before 9/11, fighters were scrambled 67 times.
[AP, 8/13/02]"

"Thus, beginning in June 2001, the Secretary of Defense (Donald Rumsfeld) was the one civilian who had to approve requests for scrambling intercept-planes.  For any and all requests for air-defense approval had to come – no longer from military commanders in the field—but from the Secretary of Defense, Rumsfeld." 


"Note that one man placed in a key position to authorize – or not -- deployment of military jets for intercepting errant aircraft could also stop the system.  One man.  It would not take a large “conspiracy” to do so."

http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/MorphJ20.doc


BS.

The Otis fighters were scrambled without Rumsfeld. The procedures allowed military commanders quite a bit of discretion, and the June changes had nothing to do with making Rumsfeld the sole point of coordination.

Procedures in affect that day:

http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/cjcsd/cjcsi/3610_01a.pdf

The changes to this release had nothing to do with making Rumsfeld the sole point of coordination:

7. Summary of Changes
a. Unmanned vehicles (UAV, ROV) added to the description of
possible derelict airborne objects.
b. Statutory Authority for Responding to Aircraft Piracy enclosure
removed and added to reference list. <== NOTE NOT CHANGED JUST MOVED.
c. In various places throughout the document, “USELEMNORAD” was
replaced with “NORAD.”
d. FAA Order 7610.4J, 3 November 1998, “Special Military
Operations,” was added as a reference.

What the procedures DO SAY about what the military role is and what they will not do:

3. Procedures
a. General. Military personnel will provide the following types of
support: intercept, surveillance, lift, equipment, and communications.
Military personnel may not participate in a search, seizure, arrest, or
other similar activity. This restriction would include the apprehension
of aircraft hijackers or use of military aircraft (fixed-wing or helicopter)
or other vehicles as platforms for gunfire or the use of other weapons
against suspected hijackers.
In addition, assistance may not be
provided under this enclosure if it could adversely affect national
security or military preparedness..


So what is CLEAR is there was NO AUTHORIZATION to FIRE UPON a civilian aircraft.

That came LATER that day, but that morning, it didn't matter how long it took, they were NOT authorized to fire upon a civilian jet.

The point is quite simple, the first aircraft would NEVER have been shot down under ANY scenario.

There was not sufficient time between the first and second aircraft to prevent its mission, even IF the preceding paragraph had been rescinded (which of course, prior to the SECOND crash would not even be considered, i.e first crash is assumed to be an accident until the second crash.)

Arthur

You missed out the pertinent bit --

When notified that military assistance is needed in
conjunction with an aircraft piracy (hijacking) emergency, the DDO,
NMCC, will:

(1) Determine whether or not the assistance needed is reasonably
available from police or commercial sources. If not, the DDO, NMCC, will
notify the appropriate unified command or NORAD to determine if suitable
assets are available and will forward the request to the Secretary of
Defense for approval in accordance with DODD 3025.15, paragraph D.7
(reference d).

Once again - "and will forward the request to the Secretary of
Defense for approval in accordance with DODD 3025.15, paragraph D.7
(reference d)."

Now, you have previously accused others of lying by ommission - do you plead guilty to lying?

yesitdid
No where has anyone ever stated what those 67 intercepts were for. However, given that NORAD's defenses are specifically designed to protect N.America from outside threats their system is designed to detect and intercept aircraft flying above a set speed and in a heading towards the center of N.America. If any craft above that speed crosses a latitude in northern Canada, headed south and has not filed a flight plan or contactedATC and identified thenselves an intercept is scrambled.

When I worked for Transport Canada at a small ATC station there was a few such scrambles every summer as American pilots flew to northern locations to go fishing and failed to file a flight plan on the way back. They were not accustomed to doing so since they usually spent their time below the 49th latitude. Many would first learn of this when a Canadian or an Air National Guard fighter appeared beside them.

Perhaps the brain trust could ask for details of those 67 intercepts. How many where for domestic flights within the contiguous USA? My feeling is that none of them were.
zoktoberfest
Quote;yesitdid
I cannot accept Hoffman because his 'energy deficit', if fulfilled by explosives, would require such an enormous quantity of explosives be distributed throughout the building.

You realize the paradoxical nature of your statement, don't you?

The buildings fell down with out the assistance of any explosives. If however, explosives are considered, then the entire contents of several warehouses would be required.

Joe can walk 5 miles in one hour. If he runs, he can do it in five days?????????????????

That is the equivalent of what you are saying.
adoucette
I have no need to lie, the truth works just fine.

Watch.

The POINT of the previous post was that in JUNE 2001 the DOD rule was changed to put Rumsfeld as the pointman for any authorizations.

IE part of the CONSPIRACY.

The summary of changes however SHOW this is not so.

You also left out the EXCLUSION for DOD approval:

The NMCC will, with the exception of immediate
responses as authorized by reference d,
forward requests for DOD
assistance to the Secretary of Defense for approval.


Thus the Otis fighters WERE scrambled without Rumsfeld even being aware of it.

But ALL OF THIS IS MOOT.

THEY DID NOT HAVE AUTHORIZATION TO SHOOT DOWN A CIVILIAN PLANE THAT MORNING.

THEY COULD NOT HAVE STOPPED THE FIRST TWO JETS NO MATTER WHAT.

THEY POSSIBLY COULD HAVE STOPPED THE PENTAGON FLIGHT, BUT THAT WOULD HAVE TAKEN A LOT OF LUCK OR A CRYSTAL BALL.

THEY PROBABLY WOULD HAVE SHOT DOWN FLIGHT 93 HAD IT NOT CRASHED IN SHANKSVILLE. THE REASON BEING IS THAT ATC HAD MOST OF THE OTHER AIRCRAFT ON THE GROUND BY THEN AND SO IT WOULD HAVE BEEN ALONE IN THE SKY AS IT APPROACHED DC. STILL, GIVEN ITS SPEED AND LOW ALTITUDE IT HAD A DECENT CHANCE OF AVOIDING INTERCEPT.

Arthur
Schneibster
QUOTE (JamesX+Jan 30 2006, 11:59 AM)
QUOTE (Schneibster+Jan 30 2006, 11:37 AM)
If I post something here, and I have said this before, it will be under this very id. You have made a serious error of judgement in assuming that any other poster is me. I simply don't do that. If I have something to say, I say it, and that's that. If it wasn't posted by Schneibster, it wasn't me. Period.


I don't buy it.

Nobody cares what you buy, ignorant racist redneck militia hilljack.
Schneibster
QUOTE (Guest_Steve+Jan 30 2006, 02:50 PM)
RE: Schneibster

Come on now, comments about one's motivation and state of mind are one thing, but attacking someone's family and making comments about their physical health is OUT OF LINE! sad.gif

I would have said so, but ignorant racist redneck militia hillbillies recognize no limits, and don't understand the meaning of civilized behavior. That's why they get shot up by the FBI and ATF every so often. Here's hopin this particular one shares that fate. I'll tolerate a lot of things, but I won't tolerate lying about me, and I won't tolerate attacks on my family.

Steve, whatever may have come before, thanks for this.
newton
QUOTE (zoktoberfest+Jan 30 2006, 06:57 PM)
Quote;yesitdid
I cannot accept Hoffman because his 'energy deficit', if fulfilled by explosives, would require such an enormous quantity of explosives be distributed throughout the building.

You realize the paradoxical nature of your statement, don't you?

The buildings fell down with out the assistance of any explosives. If however, explosives are considered, then the entire contents of several warehouses would be required.

Joe can walk 5 miles in one hour. If he runs, he can do it in five days?????????????????

That is the equivalent of what you are saying.

exactly.

lies always get tangled in their own web, as long as they 'keep talking', lol!
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