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gordon
And the temperature of a hydrocarbon fire in an oxygen atmosphere is estimated at anywhere from 1100C to 1300C, according to this site,


And what would it be in an atmospheric burn with no forced draught but with indications of an oxygen deficient combustion, like in the towers?
I'd say 825 C would be the maximum you could get even approaching perfect conditions, probably less, certainly not more

Gordon.
brian
frater, I am an IT dumpling so dont actually know what would be required if someone like yourself was to produce a DVD. I was hoping that Professor Jones might film a presentation - he is giving a public presentation on Feb 1st - so it would the man himself that viewers would see. If this is not possible then a voice over or stand in with the films he uses to illustrate his presentation would be the next best thing I suppose - but not ideal.

It would be interesting to hear his thoughts on this, I would be surprised if it has not already been considered as the potential benefits appear tremendous.
Schneibster
QUOTE (gordon+Jan 10 2006, 05:49 PM)
And the temperature of a hydrocarbon fire in an oxygen atmosphere is estimated at anywhere from 1100C to 1300C, according to this site,


And what would it be in an atmospheric burn with no forced draught but with indications of an oxygen deficient combustion, like in the towers?
I'd say 825 C would be the maximum you could get even approaching perfect conditions, probably less, certainly not more

Gordon.

That site is about tunnel fires, in a considerably more restricted airflow environment than the middle of a building with a bunch of broken windows.

On edit: and even if it were only 825C, and that's the maximum temperature that by conduction the steel could get to, that temperature would be high enough to reduce the steel to only 10% of its room-temperature load capacity; and since we know that the majority of heat from the fire exited as radiation, we also know that the temperature of the steel was not limited by the temperature of the fire, but was instead determined by the heat flux by radiative transfer, and by the specific heat of the steel.
gordon
we also know that the temperature of the steel was not limited by the temperature of the fire,

I disagree. In order for the steel temperature to rise above the combustion temperature the heat transfer would have to contravene the zeroth law

Gordon
adoucette
QUOTE (gordon+Jan 10 2006, 05:49 PM)
And the temperature of a hydrocarbon fire in an oxygen atmosphere is estimated at anywhere from 1100C to 1300C, according to this site,


And what would it be in an atmospheric burn with no forced draught but with indications of an oxygen deficient combustion, like in the towers?
I'd say 825 C would be the maximum you could get even approaching perfect conditions, probably less, certainly not more

Gordon.

Why do you claim it was oxygen deficient combustion?

Your thinking is SO one dimensional.

There was a CLEAR prevailing breeze that day. This is evident in all of the pictures of the smoke exiting the building mostly from the downwind side.

There was a clear chimney effect. This is evident in the fire moving UP in the building over time.

In BOTH impacts, openings were created on both sides of the building.

Air would have been coming from openings in the upwind side of the building and from the elevator shafts in the central core. A draft would have been created on the downwind side.

Where the air/fire first met it would NOT be O2 starved. As you progressed further towards the exit it would be, thus yielding black smoke, but the burn site would have moved in the direction of the air flow and its interface would not be O2 starved.

The NIST report does a pretty good job of modeling the fires, taking into account the office furnishings (actually setting sample cubicles on fire to see the impact and rate of burn), the movement of the fire over time and the temperatures reached for how long at different points in the building.

Arthur
Schneibster
QUOTE (gordon+Jan 10 2006, 06:30 PM)
we also know that the temperature of the steel was not limited by the temperature of the fire,

I disagree. In order for the steel temperature to rise above the combustion temperature the heat transfer would have to contravene the zeroth law

Gordon

Only if it's conductive. Heat flow by radiation is not limited by the zeroth law; only conductive heat transfer is. If a photon strikes a piece of steel, it is absorbed. The temperature of the fire that emitted the photon is immaterial.
gordon
Why do you claim it was oxygen deficient combustion?
Your thinking is SO one dimensional.


Because of the colour and amount of smoke. Black smoke is an indication of oxygen deficiency.
There is a perfect, stoichiometric air to fuel ratio which would give the highest achievable temperature for that particular fuel. There is no indication that this condition was achieved in the tower.

Gordon
gordon
Heat transfer cannot take place against a temperature gradient. If this were the case we could heat up hot things with cold things.

Gordon
yesitdid
Schneibster quotes a site that states:
QUOTE
"Although radiation is the dominant heat-transfer mechanism in fires..." in its first sentence. See also this page, which states, "In the early history of a fire, convection plays a major role in moving the hot gases from the fire to the upper portions of the room of origin and throughout the building.


An addendum to this would be to remind all that this type of early phase of a fire did not occur in the case of the towers. Instead the fire was lit by a very large amount of accellerant and much of the mass in the volume of several floors was heated quickly by the fireball.

This was NOT the case of a 'normal' office fire which starts small and smolders before rapidly spreading.
steve1957
QUOTE
bolt

It is usually those who cannot seem to debate properly and who cannot seem to backup their very own points that often find it inevitable to resort to condescension and insults


The fact of the matter is there is no legitimate debate about the physics involved with the manner of how the towers collapsed on 9/11.

Yes, there are plenty of illegitimate debates, that are nothing more than attempts to sell a fairy tale theory, IE; magicians in caves who suspended the laws of physics.

It's the same type of debate you might have with a mathematician who says 2 + 2 =5. You can argue with that person until the cows come home, and you can use every type of research known to mankind to prove that 2 + 2 = 4. But in all honesty, the people who pretend to prove to you that 2 + 2 =5 probably already know that they can't really prove it with logic, so they have to resort to other means of convincing you to believe in their fairy tale.

When you think about it, how can anyone honestly use logic and true physics when they are trying to convince someone that 2 + 2 = 5?

The truth of the matter is that true physics, logic and facts disprove their fairy tale theory, and therefore, in order to sustain their nonsensical arguments they must use ILLOGICAL arguments and false evidence.

So you have to ask yourself the question; "Do these people know that 2 + 2 does NOT = 5? Are they intentionally lying about what they believe? Or do they really believe 2 + 2 = 5 and attempt to prove it, but in the process of trying to prove a fairy tale, they discover that since logic, facts and true physics don't work, there must be something wrong with logic itself, which is why they become so illogical and irrational, and then enraged.

The reason you don't need to have a PhD. or a masters degree in mathematics, or structural engineering, is because the issue is so ELEMENTARY, very much like the equation 2 + 2 = 4. Most 1st graders can comprehend these simple equations.

One of the problems with metemars and gordon and others is they seem to believe that these equations are too complicated for people to figure out and therefore require PhD's or masters degrees in structural engineering, or some other vast amounts of knowledge.

But maybe that's because these simple equations are complicated for them for reasons I'm not aware of.
Schneibster
QUOTE (gordon+Jan 10 2006, 06:53 PM)
Heat transfer cannot take place against a temperature gradient. If this were the case we could heat up hot things with cold things.

Gordon

So, what is the temperature of the ruby rod in a ruby laser? How about the temperature of the mixture of helium and neon in a HeNe laser? OK, then why can they vaporize metal at 5000K? I guarantee that ruby rod does not reach 5000K; it would explode. Same with the HeNe tube.
brian
Quote of the day -

"Your thinking is SO one dimensional."

Are we nearing the truth -

It was a ruby laser that did it me Lord?

Never in the history of drivel ....
adoucette
QUOTE (gordon+Jan 10 2006, 06:45 PM)

Because of the colour and amount of smoke. Black smoke is an indication of oxygen deficiency.
There is a perfect, stoichiometric air to fuel ratio which would give the highest achievable temperature for that particular fuel. There is no indication that this condition was achieved in the tower.

Gordon

A floor in the WTC tower was an ACRE in size.

The WHOLE floor would not be burning in an oxygen rich environment, but SOME of it would be, some of it would not.

You get the black smoke from the part that is not. You get the high heat from the parts that are.

Arthur
Jerry Farwell

Steve 1957,
You had better edit you post you forgot to mention your website. Your late on your payment.

steve1957
QUOTE
user posted image

Jerry Farwell Posted on Jan 10 2006, 08:01 PM
 
Steve 1957,
You had better edit you post you forgot to mention your website. Your late on your payment.


Jerry, my favorite anti-christ. thanks for reminding me

http://www.iwilltryit.com/menu.htm

steve1957
Arthur, yesdidit, common sense,

Hey guys, any luck convincing people that 2 + 2 = 5???

Keep working on it, and remember persistence, try to wear them down as much as you can with so much gobledy gooo that eventually they'll crack.

And remember, no matter how much conclusive evidence they throw at you, STICK TO YOUR GUNS, don't let up, make them understand that 2 + 2 = 5. If you tell them long enough maybe some will believe it, after all it worked on you guys.

Remember when you used to think that 2 + 2 = 4, but thank god for our fearless leader bush and all the therapy provided by Fox news and other major news networks that you were able to see the light, and understand 2 + 2 = 5.

Keep up the good work in supporting our mission to conquer the world and slaughter as many children as we can.

Sincerely

"W"

Guest_yesitdid
QUOTE (steve1957+Jan 10 2006, 08:22 PM)
Arthur, yesdidit, common sense,

Hey guys, any luck convincing people that 2 + 2 = 5???


Actually you have no success in convincing anyone that 2+2=5

At least you don't have me convinced
metamars
QUOTE (Schneibster+Jan 10 2006, 05:38 PM)
Meta, I give you cred for being one of the few who can argue their way out of a paper bag- but I have to point out that Jones claims
1. the maximum temperature of the fire was 1000C, whereas the maximum temperatures for a hydrocarbon flame estimated elsewhere (I provided a link) are between 1100C and 1300C, depending on which curve you believe from that link.
2. Jones makes NO calculations and presents NO evidence regarding the movement of heat in the fires.

So your argument (not Jones', you'll note) is that most of the heat left by convection? Let's examine that.

By Wien's Law,
λ = 0.00289776829mK/T
Where λ is the wavelength in meters and
T is the temperature in kelvins.
Now, 1000C is 1273K. So,
λ = 0.00289776829mK/1273K = 2.276x10^-6 = 2.276 microns; this is the wavelength of the radiation peak of a black body at 1000C. Visible light extends from about 350nm to about 750nm; that is, from about 0.35 microns to about 0.75 microns. So this radiation peak is well into the infrared, which goes from the upper limit of the visible at 0.75 microns to 1mm, about 1000 microns. This radiation peak, therefore, is in the near infrared.

Now, firefighters use infrared to see through smoke; thus we see that smoke is more transparent to infrared than to visible light. Google "infrared vision smoke firefighters" and you'll find information in the first four hits about this. The implication is, the majority of the energy released from a 1000C fire will penetrate the smoke rather than be absorbed by it. Now, the fires were contained between two horizontal slabs of concrete 12 feet apart. Those slabs were 200 feet on a side. That means that over most of the floor, at least 75% of the directions around the fire were building, and the absolute minimum for a fire burning in empty space in the middle of a window would be around 45%; the same fire burning at the bottom of the window would see more than 55% of its surroundings as building. Thus, most of the radiated heat from a fire ten feet from the nearest window would be absorbed by the building, and that fraction gets higher the nearer the core one goes.

How about conduction? Well, concrete is a lousy conductor of heat, for a solid- and air is an even worse one. You can look that up. Basically, we can ignore conduction as a mode by which the heat leaves the fire.

That leaves only convection. It is your contention that the majority of the heat left this way. Unfortunately, this is not the common experience in fires. I refer you to this paper, which states, "Although radiation is the dominant heat-transfer mechanism in fires..." in its first sentence. See also this page, which states, "In the early history of a fire, convection plays a major role in moving the hot gases from the fire to the upper portions of the room of origin and throughout the building. As the room temperatures rise with the approach of flashover, convection continues, but the role of radiation increases rapidly and becomes the dominant heat transfer mechanism." The data from reliable sources does not support your contention; in fact, the dominant means by which heat leaves a fire is radiation.

QUOTE (metamars+)
The idea that a Ph.D. professor of physics would not know about simple heat condution and the difference between temperature and heat is silly.
I thought so too.

QUOTE (metamars+)
It seems to me that you are obfuscating, because you imply that steel is in direct contact with flame.
Nope. That would be conduction. Radiation does not require direct contact.

I think that addresses the points in your post. BTW, you should know better by now than to assume I'm obfuscating.

Interesting. However,


1) I expect the heat transfer from fire to steel due to convection to be lousy, since air has such a lousy thermal conductivity. Even if the hot gasses convected over to right next to the steel, the heat cannot just convect into the steel. At that point, we are really talking about conduction from air to steel.

So, even if heat transfer due to radiance is far greater than heat transfer due to convection (essentially conduction), you are still comparing your runner to a turtle.


2) The radiative heat transfer must fall off with distance, all other things being "equal". I never paid much attention to the fire stuff, but from the pictures it's pretty clear that after the fireballs burnt out, there were no big fires which where burning throughout an entire floor. Small fires mean small radiation, especially far from the fires.


3) I expect most radiative heat transfer from a fire that ends up in metal to be mostly limited to the floor (and ceiling) since it has a vastly greater surface area than the columns. To get the heat from floor trusses to columns, you still need conduction.

4) I expect (don't know for sure) that radiative heat transfers are basically a surface phenomenon. So, as radiative heat transfers start exceeding those from convection near the surface, the surface will heat up, but in doing so, radiative heat transfer will decrease since it "strongly " depends on the fouth power of delta T.
Can 100 mm steel columns conduct heat rapidly enough from the columns surface into it's interior, such that the column as a whole significantly weakens before the fire has burnt out or "moved on"? Obviously, the answer to this question requires computer simulation, but the point of raising it is to show that simply saying "heat transfer due to radiance exceeds that due to convection as we approach flashover" should not be carelessly interpreted as meaning heat from a fire can just radiate into steel as though the steel had a constant temperature throughout.

5) Even after you get heat into the columns in the "fire floors", you still cannot rapidly move the heat energy through the columns into the non-fire floors. Thus, away from fire floors, columns retain their strength, and Gordon's calculations are still relevant.
GovernmentCheese
If Billy has two apples, and Mary gives him two more, FEMA could spend $16 million writing a report shwoing that Billy has 5 apples.

They teached me this in skool
Guest_guest
Does anyone know where the following was originally published? The absurdities are making my head hurt.

QUOTE
Abstract
An analysis is presented that calculates the temperature of the steel truss rods in the World Trade Center towers subject to a fire based on the building ventilation factor. The CIB correlation is used for the fire. Conduction analyses are made taking into account variable properties for the steel and the insulation. A structural failure model is described based on compression buckling of the truss rods due to a reduction in the Young's modulus. The computed times for the estimated failure or incipient collapse of the floors in both towers has been computed as 105±20 min for WTC 1 (north) and 51±9 min for WTC 2 (south), compared to the collapse times from the aircraft impact of 104 and 56 min, respectively. The insulation thickness and the difference of 19.1 mm () and 38.1 mm () between the two towers appear to have been the root cause of the collapses.


A
ceiling and wall surface area
Ao
ventilation opening area
D
diameter of the truss rod
E
Young's modulus
h
overall heat transfer coefficient
hconv
convective heat transfer coefficient
Ho
compartment height
kins
thermal conductivity of the insulation
L
length of the truss rod
P
critical buckling stress
r
radial coordinate, see Eqn. (1)
t
time
T
temperature
Tgas
gas temperature
α
thermal diffusivity
σ
Stefan–Boltzmann constant.


Article Outline
Nomenclature
1. Introduction
2. Analysis
2.1. Fire temperature
2.2. Heat transfer to the steel
3. The structure
4. Conclusions
Acknowledgements
References


1. Introduction
The fall of the World Trade towers has been initially reported and generally accepted as due to the collisions by aircraft and its fuel. Subsequent analyses and findings have dampened that cause and have pointed more at the fire involving the building contents [1 and 2]. It is estimated that about 29 Mg of jet fuel was in each aircraft and about 9.4 Mg of jet fuel was expended in the fireballs of the initial impacts, and the remaining jet fuel may have burned for several minutes more on a floor [2]. These calculations are based on standard formulas in the literature, and easily and clearly show that the jet fuel was only responsible for the ignition of the contents. The lack of clarity in the media is indicative of the lack of knowledge or reliance on the science of fire in reaching a quick answer. The recent FEMA report [1] could not determine the cause of the collapses. They cited a number of issues: (1) aircraft damage but acknowledge that the two buildings would have remained standing had they not received a fire load, (2) the jet fuel although it burned out quickly ignited the contents and caused rapid fully developed floor fires, (3) the type of steel truss floor system should be subject to more detailed evaluation. This is what we have done. They also cited that fireproofing needs to adhere under impact and fire, and connection performance needs to be better understood. In particular, two 15.9 mm () and two 25.4 mm (1″) diameter bolts to the exterior columns, and two 15.9 mm () diameter bolts to the interior columns connected the floor trusses. These connections have been questioned as weak links.

Instead, we have focused on the transverse and main trusses, and in particular on the 27.7 mm (1.09″) diameter truss rods. Our hypothesis is that the truss rods are the weak link because they have the lowest steel cross-sectional mass and the fire would increase its temperature the fastest. Therefore, we have based our analysis on a link between the temperature evolution and the buckling under restrained elongation.

Our hypothesis is illustrated in Fig. 1. We suggest that buckling of the transverse-truss compressed diagonal rods, which were adjacent to the main-truss, occurred first due to the combination of their restrained elongation and quick loss of buckling resistance induced by their fast temperature rise (marked as St. A in Fig. 1). With the buckling of these diagonals, the compressive forces in the transverse-truss middle diagonals were suddenly increased. As they had a similarly reduced buckling stiffness they buckled soon after (marked as St. cool.gif, and the whole transverse-truss failed, sagging downwards (marked as St. C). Sagging of the floor deck followed, developing some membrane action in the steel deck, and possibly disconnecting the concrete within the floor span from the main-truss's upper bulk of concrete due to combined large tensile and shear stresses (marked as St. D). Due to the ductility and continuous nature of the deck itself and the continuous nature of the transverse-truss bottom chord, the floor probably did not fall down immediately, but rather stayed hanging from the main-truss bottom chord for some period. Subsequently, the buckled transverse-trusses and steel/concrete deck fell down on the floor below, thus aggravating loading conditions and enhancing its failure.


(39K)

Fig. 1. Diagram of suggested sequence of events triggering progressive collapse (truss drawings taken from FEMA report [1])



Simultaneously the fire challenged the main-trusses as well. Again, the thin diagonal rods heated much faster than the other members. However, only part of them was in compression and with various loading ratios. As the "truss" was not statically determinate (its upper and lower chords were highly continuous and did not include hinged joints at all), buckling of some compressed diagonals alone (marked as St. A1 in Fig. 1) would not necessarily cause immediate collapse; however, it would be a main trigger to further deterioration of capacity, leading eventually to total failure. Our hypothesis is that the whole collapse mechanism of this truss was as follows: Despite the slotted holes at the supports, the main-truss upper chord was too restrained and could not elongate freely. A horizontal force was induced at the supports, which were highly above the neutral line of the main truss's bending as a whole. This induced a high compressive force into the upper chord, and a superimposed bending moment on the truss as a whole, increasing its tendency to either strongly deflect downwards (with possible buckling of the upper chord in the vertical plane), or buckle in a transverse mode. However, since the upper chord had a much larger stiffness in the horizontal direction, transverse buckling did not occur. With most of the compressed diagonals already buckled, the "beam" or "truss" behavior did not exist any longer, and the upper chord acted as a "cable", from which all the other members are hanging downwards.

This increased the pressure on the inner edge of the end seats while increasing the tension in the bolts, actually bending and shearing the bolts due to the enlarged rotations. Eventually, the bolts failed as well, possibly rupturing the seat connections, and total collapse of the floor ensued, placing load on the floor below. With several floors simultaneously involved in fire, this would cause several floors to load a floor below. The connections at the columns could not tolerate the load and progressive collapse ensued even to floors that were not on fire. The progressive collapse mechanism is well reported and accepted, but the initiating event is not established. We offer the truss failure as described.

The following analyses were prompted by the FEMA report [1] that stated that the average thickness of the fireproofing on the trusses was 19.1 mm (), and were in the process of being upgraded to 38.1 mm (). On September 11, 2001, WTC 1 (north) had the higher level in the impact zone (floors 94–98 ), and WTC 2 (south) only had the higher level on floor 78 with impact over 78–84. The insulation was sprayed mineral fiber, reportedly Cafco DC/F similar to Isolatek Blaze-Sheild II having a value of thermal conductivity of 0.043 W/m K at 24°C. The DC/F is slightly higher at 0.046 W/m K.

2. Analysis
There are three parts to this analysis: (1) The fire, (2) The heat transfer to the steel, and (3) The structural failure. The fire depends principally on the ventilation, and secondly on the fuel type. The fuel loading (weight or energy available on the floor) will determine the duration of the fire. The heat transfer to the steel principally depends on the insulation, and the variation of thermal conductivity is crucial in such an analysis. The gas-phase heat transfer conductance is very high and the surface temperature of the insulation can usually be taken as the gas temperature; however, we did not make such approximations. Instead, we strove to calculate the heat transfer as accurately as possible, and the fire conditions were allowed to vary over a plausible range. The time of structural failure of the main-truss rods depends on the temperature-induced decreasing modulus of elasticity lowering the resistance to buckling. The time of structural failure of the transverse-truss rods depends on the combined effects of increasing compressive stresses stemming from temperature rise under elongation restraint, and the decreasing modulus of elasticity lowering the resistance to buckling.

2.1. Fire temperature
The fire temperature during fully developed conditions is computed from the correlations reported from the CIB test analyses [3]. These tests are of scales up to 1.5 m high and for wood cribs covering the floor. Fuels of higher heats of combustion and larger scale can produce higher temperatures, but this is only suggested theoretically [4].

The gas temperatures are based on Ao ranging from 124 and 267 m2 for WTC 1 [1] (p. 2–23), Ho equal to 3 m, and A based on a floor of 63.5 m by 63.5 m and a utility core of 26.5 m by 41.8 m that is about 4100 m2. With these values, the group A/AoHo1/2 can be estimated between 15 and 33 m–1/2. Fig. 2 provides a gas temperature range between 800°C and 1000°C.


(6K)

Fig. 2. Temperature range of exposure in WTC 1 & 2 [3].



The corresponding floor burning rates in wood are 14.5–18.7 kg/s or about 250 MW per floor. For typical floor loadings of 30 kg/m2, the fire duration per floor would be about 80–100 min. There is variation in this duration since the burning rate is based on a wood crib configuration; other configurations would vary. But the results suggest, based on the actual event that the duration was not much greater than the WTC 1 time to collapse. This would imply that had the steel structure survived longer, the fire duration time would have been less than the failure time, and no complete failure would have occurred. The loading and burning rate are key issues here and more information on the demography of the WTC furnishings, and research on different fuel types are needed.

Hence, a fire temperature of 900°C was used in our calculations based on the mean in Fig. 2, and will commence and stay constant throughout. This is justified based on the rapidly developing fire from the jet fuel, and on the estimate that the fire duration on a floor is longer than the collapse time.

2.2. Heat transfer to the steel
The heat transfer analysis is a standard numerical calculation of the heat conduction equation for a composite cylinder of homogeneous insulation and steel. The governing equation is given as:

(1)


The gas-phase boundary condition uses a constant convective heat transfer coefficient of 20 W/m2 K and blackbody conditions for the radiant heat transfer. The latter is justified because of the large scale of the fire, and the convective component is a typical value for fire conditions and is negligible compared to radiation. The combined heat transfer coefficient is expressed as:
h=hconv+σ(Tgas2+T2)(Tgas+T). (2)


The heat transfer coefficient is in W/m2 K and the temperatures in the equation are in degrees Kelvin. These values used for the overall heat transfer coefficient have small effect on the final results since the insulation provides the significant resistance to heat flow. At the insulation-steel interface, we assume that there is no contact-resistance; we impose continuity of the temperature and conservation of energy across the boundary.
The properties of both the steel and insulation vary considerably with temperature and cannot be neglected. The manufacturer of the insulation states the conductivity is 0.046 W/m K at normal temperature, and the literature indicates an approximate linear increase [5 and 6]. We used:

kins=0.046+0.00024 (T−20) (3)


The thermal conductivity is expressed in W/m K and the temperature in this expression is in degree centigrade. The thermal diffusivity of the insulation is considered constant and equal to 3.1×107 m2/s [5]. The steel exhibits a strong variation both in thermal conductivity as well as in volumetric specific heat. We have carefully fitted the curves provided by Lie [7].
Note that for WTC 1 (north) we assign the insulation to be 38.1 mm () in thickness while for the WTC 2 (south), the insulation thickness is 19.1 mm () [1] (pp. 2–12). Eq. (1) is integrated with the Crank Nicholson implicit scheme starting from a uniform initial condition at 20°C throughout the steel and insulation. The temperature results are shown in Fig. 3.


(5K)

Fig. 3. Temperature of the steel truss rods for WTC 1 & 2.



It must be realized that there is an incipient delay time that must be added to the results in Fig. 3 since the ceiling membrane would retard the heating. It can be argued that the impact of the aircraft destroyed the ceiling partition, and this is certainly true in places. But where it has been destroyed, the fuel on the floor is also likely pushed away. The aircraft had a weight at impact of about 170 tons and each tower weighed about 750,000 tons; or the impact is like a sparrow hitting a 125 kg person [8]. Moreover the engines and landing gear are the dominant destructive missiles. The aircraft aluminum skin and the fuel would quickly dissipate its momentum. Hence, we believe the fuel from the furnishings and contents would be pushed to areas where there would be sustained fire, with no fire likely in the immediate impact area. These fuel piles would increase the fire duration in those areas, and first attack the ceiling membrane.

The acoustical ceiling tiles initially installed in the World Trade Center towers were of one type (Armstrong World Industries Inc.) and were not specified to be fire resistant. If not immediately destroyed, this membrane would likely retard the direct heating of the insulated truss by about 10 min, an estimation based on experience. Any reconstruction of the incidence needs to account for this membrane effect more completely.

It has been speculated that the impact knocked off the protective insulation. We do not believe that this occurred to any extent in the fire region since a calculation of the bare steel chord would suggest failure in 10–15 min. Again, in the impact area this may have happened, and testing needs to be done to assess the robustness of the insulation to impact.

3. The structure
The truss rods can be analyzed in tension and in compression at the mid-section. Compression can be shown to be the critical condition. The rods were A36 steel with a yield stress of 253 Mpa (36 ksi) and an ultimate stress of 422 MPa (60 ksi) [1]. The rods are nominally 0.889 m (35″) long. The critical buckling stress of the rod in compression is given as:

(4)


For E equal to 210,900 MPa (30,000 ksi), the critical buckling stress is 126 MPa (17.9 ksi). Since this is less than the yield stress, the member fails in buckling. With the design load stress as 126 MPa (17.9 ksi), if the overall safety factor is 2–3, then the actual load just before the fire may have induced a stress of about 42.2–63.3 MPa (6–9 ksi). With the rising of the rod temperature, it wishes to elongate, but the continuity of the upper and lower truss chords restrains this elongation. The reduction in E due to temperature to render this stress, 53±11 MPa (7.5±1.5 ksi), into a critical buckling stress must be about 70,300–105,500 MPa (10,000–15,000 ksi) [7]. The corresponding critical failure temperature is about 630–770°C, accordingly. With this temperature bound we estimate the time to failure for the towers to be given in Table 1 using a fixed fire temperature of 900°C.


Table 1. Time for critical events (minutes)




The time to failure suggested in the table complemented by the addition of 10 min to account for the suspended ceiling membrane gives times close to the actual failure events in both buildings. We find this result extremely telling and we believe forms the root cause initiating the collapses.

For structural steel elements in standard fire testing, the failure criterion ranges from 550–600°C. Therefore, we have also made computations for the truss rod to reach 600°C for fire temperatures of 800–1000°C. The times to reach these temperatures are roughly 75±12 min for WTC 1 and 32±6 for WTC 2. Hence, no matter how one estimates failure, the difference between the collapse times of the two buildings is of 44±7 min compared to the actual collapse time difference of 48 min. This strongly correlates with the insulation thickness.

Should one accept that indeed the generalized failure of the truss rods is the initiating event, then it follows that the consequent failure of the connections could be the result of the floor sagging and pulling on the connections downward thus exerting a shearing action that could fail them. From some circumstantial evidence shown in the FEMA report we see failure of the connections, as they were pulled apart rather than failure of weak elements of the connections such as bolts. Further, the images of the collapse of the WTC 1 (north) seem to show a burst of flame and smoke outward just before the collapse. This, in our view corroborates the idea of a generalized floor failure. The collapse of a floor would cause the smoke and fire to be pushed out of the building from the space below as video images seems to indicate. Upon loading one or two additional floors on the floor below, the whole structure would start failing as more and more floors fails and increased instabilities in the vertical unconstrained elements arise.

4. Conclusions
It appears that the insulation thickness on the truss rods was deficient and caused the heating of the steel that led to weakening and collapse. The variation of 19.1 mm () and 38.1 mm () thickness between the towers needs to be investigated further, and understood in light of fire safety design principles. The logical questions include: What was the basis of the original fire safety design and specification? Our estimate of the truss rod failure by temperature in the ASTM E 119 test for 38.1 mm () thick insulation is about 67–79 min corresponding to failure at 500°C and 600°C, respectively. Our estimate of fire duration was about 80–100 min. If these times are correct, it suggested that the fire safety design criteria need assessment. It has been implied that a two-hour criterion should have been used for this floor assembly. Certainly, some factor of safety needs to be incorporated in relating fire duration time with test ratings or computed failure times.

The truss rod failure is proposed as the initiating event. An important implication of this proposed mechanism points to the dominant effect of the insulation applied to the truss members. If one follows this theory, the reduced amount of insulation in the WTC 2 could have resulted in a premature collapse of that tower by almost one hour compared to WTC 1.

Acknowledgements
We appreciated checks on the early thermal calculations by Ali Rangwala. We acknowledge useful discussions with colleagues: C.C. Fu, J. Milke and F. Mowrer, and N. Shultz of VTEC Laboratories, Inc.


References
1. World trade center building performance study. Federal Emergency Management Agency, FEMA 2002.p. 403.

2. Torero JL, Quintiere JG, Steinhaus T. Fire safety in high-rise buildings, lessons learned from the WTC, Jahresfachtagung der Vereingung zur Forderrung des Deutschen Brandschutzez e. V., Dresden, Germany, 2002.

3. Thomas PH, Heselden AJM. Fully developed fires in single compartments—a co-operative research program of the Conseil International du Batiment. FR Note No. 923, Fire Research Station, UK, 1972.

4. Quintiere JG. Fire behavior in building compartments. Proceedings of the 29th International Symposium on Combustion. Sapporo, Japan: The Combustion Institute, accepted for presentation.

5. Kreith F, Bohn MS. Principles of Heat Transfer. 6th ed. US: Brooks/Cole, Thomson Learning, 2001. p. 44.

6. Reed RJ. North American Combustion Handbook. 3rd ed., vol. 1, Cleveland, OH: North America Manufacturing Co., 1986. p. 120.

7. Lie TT. Structural Fire Protection. New York: American Society of Civil Engineers, 1992.

8. Sometime Lofty Towers. Browntrout Publishers, 2001.
Coastal
QUOTE (Guest_guest+Jan 10 2006, 09:12 PM)

Does anyone know where the following was originally published? The absurdities are making my head hurt.


Fire Safety Journal (UK)
2002
Vol 37, n7, October, pp 707-716
Schneibster
Sweet! Why waste time on calculations of dubious nature when you have the calculations performed by the University of Maryland's Department of Fire Protection Engineering? here is a link to the article; it is pay-per-view, but given the text above, and the fact that the calculations by experienced professional structural fire protection engineers familiar with the physics involved postdicts a failure time that easily contains the actual observed collapse time within its error bars, I think there is no need to perform further calculations unless someone can introduce a reasonable doubt that the calculations done in that paper use the correct formulae or are correctly performed. Numerical simulation appears unnecessary, the calculations merely requiring correct understanding of the available heat from the fire and the structural characteristics of the floor truss rods. As I have previously shown by a simple numerical simulation, once one floor falls, the fate of the structure is sealed; this paper, then, provides the mechanism by which that initial failure of one floor occurs.

For the non-technical who don't want to wade through the details, what the authors propose is that the truss rods under the floors buckled not merely because of the heat weakening them but also because they expanded due to the heat and this expansion was added to their static and dynamic structural load to create a total load beyond their weakened capacity due to the heat. IOW, they could not expand, because that expansion was prevented by their attachments to the core columns on one side and the perimeter columns on the other, both of which were thicker and stronger than the floor trusses; thus, when they tried to expand, they would bend, and when this bending force added to the weight of the floor slab they were supporting exceeded their ultimate failure strength, they failed in compression, i.e. they buckled.

In more specific detail, the diagonal truss rods in the transverse truss failed first; these are the diagonal members that run from the upper truss chord (i.e. bar) to the lower truss chord, illustrated in this image: User posted image
The trusses are the two bars directly under the floor and a second bar a foot or so below it, connected by diagonal truss rods, and it is these diagonal truss rods that the authors propose failed first; once these had failed, then the loading on the lower chord would buckle it first, and once it was buckled the full load would come onto the upper chord and its attachments to the core and perimeter columns; final failure of the upper chord would drop the floor slab onto the next lower floor, essentially at free-fall acceleration because there would no longer be anything holding it up, and my quick-and-dirty numerical simulation perl shows that once this had happened, collapse was unstoppable.

Incidentally, the content of this page provides a better and more easily understood description of the structure of the WTC towers than any other I have seen. Knock yourselves out.
Schneibster
Guest_guest, nice work, and thanks for the details.
reasonwhy
QUOTE (Schneibster+Jan 10 2006, 10:33 PM)
Sweet! Why waste time on calculations of dubious nature when you have the calculations performed by the University of Maryland's Department of Fire Protection Engineering? here is a link to the article; it is pay-per-view, but given the text above, and the fact that the calculations by experienced professional structural fire protection engineers familiar with the physics involved postdicts a failure time that easily contains the actual observed collapse time within its error bars, I think there is no need to perform further calculations unless someone can introduce a reasonable doubt that the calculations done in that paper use the correct formulae or are correctly performed. Numerical simulation appears unnecessary, the calculations merely requiring correct understanding of the available heat from the fire and the structural characteristics of the floor truss rods. As I have previously shown by a simple numerical simulation, once one floor falls, the fate of the structure is sealed; this paper, then, provides the mechanism by which that initial failure of one floor occurs.

For the non-technical who don't want to wade through the details, what the authors propose is that the truss rods under the floors buckled not merely because of the heat weakening them but also because they expanded due to the heat and this expansion was added to their static and dynamic structural load to create a total load beyond their weakened capacity due to the heat. IOW, they could not expand, because that expansion was prevented by their attachments to the core columns on one side and the perimeter columns on the other, both of which were thicker and stronger than the floor trusses; thus, when they tried to expand, they would bend, and when this bending force added to the weight of the floor slab they were supporting exceeded their ultimate failure strength, they failed in compression, i.e. they buckled.

In more specific detail, the diagonal truss rods in the transverse truss failed first; these are the diagonal members that run from the upper truss chord (i.e. bar) to the lower truss chord, illustrated in this image: User posted image
The trusses are the two bars directly under the floor and a second bar a foot or so below it, connected by diagonal truss rods, and it is these diagonal truss rods that the authors propose failed first; once these had failed, then the loading on the lower chord would buckle it first, and once it was buckled the full load would come onto the upper chord and its attachments to the core and perimeter columns; final failure of the upper chord would drop the floor slab onto the next lower floor, essentially at free-fall acceleration because there would no longer be anything holding it up, and my quick-and-dirty numerical simulation perl shows that once this had happened, collapse was unstoppable.

Incidentally, the content of this page provides a better and more easily understood description of the structure of the WTC towers than any other I have seen. Knock yourselves out.

You fail to mention how strong the floors actully are:


Floors

Composite floors comprise 900mm deep bar joists (spaced at 2.04 m centres and braced transversely by secondary joists) and a 10 cm thick lightweight concrete slab laid on steel trough decking as permanent formwork. Composite action between the concrete and the steelwork is ensured by extending the diagonal web members of the joists through the steel decking and embedding them in the slab. Dead weight of floor 50 kg/in2, imposed load 488 kg/in2.
Multi-Storey Buildings in Steel, Godfrey, GB (Editor); Second Edition; Collins, London, England, 1985User posted image
gordon
So we are being asked to believe that the truss rods failed because of compression between the horizontal beams caused by thermal expansion. In other words the truss rods absorbed the expansion in compressive strain without a consequent and sympathetic reaction in the horizontal beams, yet after their own failure through buckling these same truss rods which were formerly unable to relieve their strain through deformation of the horizontal beams were then able to cause failure in the horizontal beams and their vertical column connection. How does that work?
And because of this failure some floors and ceilings fell down, which led to the total collapse of the entire structure? How does that work?
No great mention of any of the load bearing members which did the job of holding the whole thing up in the first place.
This report needs work.
And then there is the very simple fact that any deterioration in this upper section caused by thermal or mechanical means, would mean that it would be the recipient of even more of the damage caused by collision with the lower section and bearing in mind that it was made from thinner section material in the first place, this damage will further damage its ability to deliver a concerted force on the lower section, and thus the arrest would be occasioned at an earlier stage than would be the case otherwise
Gordon
Schneibster
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Jan 10 2006, 10:49 PM)
You fail to mention how strong the floors actully are:

Floors

Composite floors comprise 900mm deep bar joists (spaced at 2.04 m centres and braced transversely by secondary joists) and a 10 cm thick lightweight concrete slab laid on steel trough decking as permanent formwork. Composite action between the concrete and the steelwork is ensured by extending the diagonal web members of the joists through the steel decking and embedding them in the slab. Dead weight of floor 50 kg/in2, imposed load 488 kg/in2.
Multi-Storey Buildings in Steel, Godfrey, GB (Editor); Second Edition; Collins, London, England, 1985User posted image

Hey, it ain't me- see the document text posted above. Bear in mind that any additional loading that occurs as a result of expansion of the truss members would be added to the static and dynamic loads the floors were already under. And the whole shootin match then gets weakened, and the hotter it gets, the more it tries to expand and the weaker it gets. They calculated based on the design loading, and added the stress of the expansion, and the weakening due to temperature. When the numbers come out that close, you know you're onto something.
Schneibster
QUOTE (gordon+)
So we are being asked to believe that the truss rods failed because of compression between the horizontal beams caused by thermal expansion.  In other words the truss rods absorbed the expansion in compressive strain without a consequent and sympathetic reaction in the horizontal beams, yet after their own failure through buckling these same truss rods which were formerly unable to relieve their strain through deformation of the horizontal beams were then able to cause failure in the horizontal beams and their vertical column connection.  How does that work?
Nope. You've misunderstood. Read it again.

QUOTE (gordon+)
And because of this failure some floors and ceilings fell down, which led to the total collapse of the entire structure?  How does that work?
I posted a numerical simulation program written in perl back about page 70 or so. metamars wrote a similar program in VB, and his results and mine agreed pretty closely- enough that we were both convinced that we were on the right track. A major problem was accounting for the first collapse, however- but now, this paper does that.

QUOTE (gordon+)
No great mention of any of the load bearing members which did the job of holding the whole thing up in the first place.
This report needs work.
No, it doesn't- it doesn't address the global collapse of the building, only the local collapse of a single floor. Read the abstract again. They do precisely what they set out to do, which is to show that given the difference in insulation thickness between the two buildings, their mechanism postdicts collapse times that agree with the observed collapse times. You need to read the paper, and understand it in context. This is hand-waving, and I expected better of you.

QUOTE (gordon+)
And then there is the very simple fact that any deterioration in this upper section caused by thermal or mechanical means, would mean that it would be the recipient of even more of the damage caused by collision with the lower section and bearing in mind that it was made from thinner section material in the first place, this damage will further damage its ability to deliver a concerted force on the lower section, and thus the arrest would be occasioned at an earlier stage than would be the case otherwise
I disagree, and I suggest you have a look at the numerical simulation for yourself. Remember as well that it was done two different ways by two different programmers using two different algorithms and we both got the same result.
gordon
then the loading on the lower chord would buckle it first

So having suffered a buckling failure we must presume that the lower chord was in compressive strain. Yet sagging of the entire section would cause a reduction in the compressive strain, and the author requires that the section as a whole also exerts an inward force to shear the column connections.
We are not informed whether the upper chord failed in tension or compression.
That would be interesting.
Gordon

gordon
I posted a numerical simulation program written in perl back about page 70 or so.

Did your program take into account the remaining strength in the tower?
Did you account for the ability of the structure to absorb strain energy?
What failure mode did you assume for the core and perimeter columns?

Gordon.
Schneibster
QUOTE (gordon+Jan 10 2006, 11:40 PM)
then the loading on the lower chord would buckle it first

So having suffered a buckling failure we must presume that the lower chord was in compressive strain. Yet sagging of the entire section would cause a reduction in the compressive strain, and the author requires that the section as a whole also exerts an inward force to shear the column connections.
We are not informed whether the upper chord failed in tension or compression.
That would be interesting.
Gordon

Hey, I'm just interpreting- if you're gonna criticize it, you better criticize what they said, not what I said. I suggest you read the text posted above, since the paper is pay-per-view.
Schneibster
QUOTE (gordon+Jan 10 2006, 11:45 PM)
I posted a numerical simulation program written in perl back about page 70 or so.

Did your program take into account the remaining strength in the tower?
Did you account for the ability of the structure to absorb strain energy?
What failure mode did you assume for the core and perimeter columns?

Gordon.

Go look it over for yourself.
gordon
QUOTE (gordon @ Jan 10 2006, 11:45 PM)
I posted a numerical simulation program written in perl back about page 70 or so.

Did your program take into account the remaining strength in the tower?
Did you account for the ability of the structure to absorb strain energy?
What failure mode did you assume for the core and perimeter columns?

Gordon.


----------- Go look it over for yourself.




Where would we be without rhetorical questions?
G
RealityCheck
QUOTE (gordon+Jan 10 2006, 11:17 PM)
So we are being asked to believe that the truss rods failed because of compression between the horizontal beams caused by thermal expansion.  In other words the truss rods absorbed the expansion in compressive strain without a consequent and sympathetic reaction in the horizontal beams, yet after their own failure through buckling these same truss rods which were formerly unable to relieve their strain through deformation of the horizontal beams were then able to cause failure in the horizontal beams and their vertical column connection.  How does that work?
And because of this failure some floors and ceilings fell down, which led to the total collapse of the entire structure?  How does that work?
No great mention of any of the load bearing members which did the job of holding the whole thing up in the first place.
This report needs work.
And then there is the very simple fact that any deterioration in this upper section caused by thermal or mechanical means, would mean that it would be the recipient of even more of the damage caused by collision with the lower section and bearing in mind that it was made from thinner section material in the first place, this damage will further damage its ability to deliver a concerted force on the lower section, and thus the arrest would be occasioned at an earlier stage than would be the case otherwise  
Gordon


Hi gordon.

The answer to the first question you posed involves obvious and readily ascertainable/confirmable physical/structural/engineering principles, so I think I might be able to help you there with only a brief stop here.

(1) If you knew how the trusses that keep up a flat roof under the weight of tiles/snow etc worked, you would know that the DOWN BENDING force on the UPPER 'stringer' is transmitted via the triangle arrangements of struts to the LOWER 'stringer' so that the force then becomes a SIDEWAYS TENSIONING force along that stringer. Once these struts have no more 'angled push' on the lower stringer (because that stinger is expanded/lengthened by some means between the strut connection-points along that bottom stringer, the BENDING FORCE on the upper stringer is no longer tranferred as per the original truss design/structure geometry/connections...and hence everything on that roof will be pushing to bend that upper stringer so that it will SAG DOWN. This is why such trusses are designed/used as such (used as intended, the strength of the "I" BEAM SHAPE also depends on such 'top'-stringer-'bending' and 'bottom'-stringer-tensioning principle). The resulting 'bending/sagging' would pull on the outer/inner wall mounting bolts AS WELL AS THE USUAL vertical load in normal operation. Add to that the distortions from differential heating, annealing-softening and transient vibrational 'peak-stresses' which would have been present during impact/partial internal collapses. Well, I hope this gives you an idea as to "how does that work?" in this aspect.

As to the rest, I remind you again that the temp/condition of the 'debris' MASS impacting on each successive lower floor has no import as to immediate MASS effect of the weight/momentum/impulse over the critical time of floor-to-floor impact/progression...as the mass/impulse INCREASED irrespective of the chaotic/conditional profiles of every component part of that falling 'plug' of debris. Add to this the sudden compression/decompression of air and the sudden transmission of extreme vibrations in all forms/mediums present, and you will appreciate that NO single effect/mechanism as acting in isolation, and so any ONE effect could be amplified/attenuated violently from moment to moment and place to place in the melee.

I hope this helped, gordon. Gotta rush off again; good luck.

RC.
gordon
a SIDEWAYS TENSIONING force along that stringer

So how can it fail in compression (buckling) if it is in tension?
G
Schneibster
QUOTE (gordon+Jan 11 2006, 12:03 AM)
Where would we be without rhetorical questions?
G

Not wasting time on BS?
steve1957
Guest_yesitdid,

user posted image

Now that we have a new world order, it only makes since that we have a new school system to match.

user posted image

And of course, "New Math" "New rules of physics" and last but not least "New rules of morality"

user posted image
"When this nation departs from the Lord, we will be destroyed"

Now here's some reality for you to think about.........

user posted image

user posted image

Yet the rocket scientists on this board believe fires MUCH LESS INTENSE shattered all these steel frame structures in about 10 seconds...

user posted image

user posted image

Fire didn't destroy this building after burning 19 hours

user posted image
user posted image

But look at what it did to one of the strongest steel buildings in the world...

user posted image

Of course Arthur rejects the old school of physics and has adopted the NEW WAY OF THINKING, where the laws of physics take vacations on 9/11 and magicians in caves are able to defy trillion dollar defense systems and manipulate the laws of gravity from 12,000 miles away.

I agree with Abraham Lincoln, regarding what would happen to this nation when it departed from the Lord.

Our school systems are so corrupt, that people like Arthur believe that fairy tales are real, and lies are true.

May the Lord have mercy on us.

RealityCheck
QUOTE (gordon+Jan 11 2006, 12:16 AM)
a SIDEWAYS TENSIONING force along that stringer

So how can it fail in compression (buckling) if it is in tension?
G


The BOTTOM stringer MAY buckle as it is expanded lengthways against the walls at each end. The failure of ITS FUNCTION as a DOWN-FORCE-REDIRECTION MECHANISM is DIFFERENT FROM ITS FAILURE AS A 'STRAIGHT' PIECE OF BEAM. I hope you can see the TWO aspects involved here: one is the FORM and the OTHER is the FUNCTION.

Frankly, gordon, this sort of 'one-dimensional analysis' thinking on your part seems to be a major reason why you ask all those 'obvious'/'rhetorical' questions. Perhaps you should take time out and expand your multi-disciplinary approach and knowledge/reasoning/inclusiveness skills before proceeding with your analysis efforts, as they too (as I have had occasion before to say) seem all too one-dimensional for the real world situations you wish to apply your methods to.

Just friendly advice, mate; as even "I" was as one-dimensional in my younger days, hehehe. The other dimensions come with perseverence in study and cogitation. It will come, since you are obviously intelligent enough for it to transpire given the will and effort necessary. Good luck, gordon. Gotta rush of again! I'll surf through again later today, though; as at last this thread seems to be getting some good-will discussion/physics.

RC.
.
adoucette
Hey Steve,

You know what you can do?

user posted image

laugh.gif


Arthur
cosmo
Here is an excellent video supporting much of the physics behind the "pancake collapse" theories.
metamars
QUOTE (Schneibster+Jan 10 2006, 11:33 PM)
QUOTE (gordon+)
So we are being asked to believe that the truss rods failed because of compression between the horizontal beams caused by thermal expansion.  In other words the truss rods absorbed the expansion in compressive strain without a consequent and sympathetic reaction in the horizontal beams, yet after their own failure through buckling these same truss rods which were formerly unable to relieve their strain through deformation of the horizontal beams were then able to cause failure in the horizontal beams and their vertical column connection.  How does that work?
Nope. You've misunderstood. Read it again.

QUOTE (gordon+)
And because of this failure some floors and ceilings fell down, which led to the total collapse of the entire structure?  How does that work?
I posted a numerical simulation program written in perl back about page 70 or so. metamars wrote a similar program in VB, and his results and mine agreed pretty closely- enough that we were both convinced that we were on the right track. A major problem was accounting for the first collapse, however- but now, this paper does that.

QUOTE (gordon+)
No great mention of any of the load bearing members which did the job of holding the whole thing up in the first place.
This report needs work.
No, it doesn't- it doesn't address the global collapse of the building, only the local collapse of a single floor. Read the abstract again. They do precisely what they set out to do, which is to show that given the difference in insulation thickness between the two buildings, their mechanism postdicts collapse times that agree with the observed collapse times. You need to read the paper, and understand it in context. This is hand-waving, and I expected better of you.

QUOTE (gordon+)
And then there is the very simple fact that any deterioration in this upper section caused by thermal or mechanical means, would mean that it would be the recipient of even more of the damage caused by collision with the lower section and bearing in mind that it was made from thinner section material in the first place, this damage will further damage its ability to deliver a concerted force on the lower section, and thus the arrest would be occasioned at an earlier stage than would be the case otherwise
I disagree, and I suggest you have a look at the numerical simulation for yourself. Remember as well that it was done two different ways by two different programmers using two different algorithms and we both got the same result.

My program took absolutely no account of either stess/strain within floors, nor stress/strain within columns. It assumed that the floors were basically levitating in space, up until the moment of collision.

All it proved was that it was useless as a method of analysis. tongue.gif

I don't recall, exactly, but I think I printed out KE at each step (=floor), but there was no attempt to consider losses due to pulverizing concrete or anything like that.
Foxx
Hi All...

I see The Schneibster has returned under his pen-name 'Schneibster'.

What has he 'returned' WITH... ???

Nothing more than recycling his earlier posts regarding 'The Fires'.

I guess he thinks that this refuted argument has been absent long enough, and that everyone has forgotten the refutation, so he figures it's time to run through it all again with 'new' links about hypotheticals related to fire-engineering ---

* conduction, convection, radiation, heat absorption, smoke generation, hiding fires, and on and on ---

* "If you can't baffle 'em with BS, then try to blind 'em with Science" ---

* obfuscate... the last topic was getting too hot - so change the topic --- "What?... don't have any new info, then quick... recycle old arguments (as if they are fresh and NEW).

Well... I guess if we MUST recycle old arguements, then (once again) we MUST recycle the refutation of all these unsupported hypotheticals...


1 - From the NIST report...
http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-3Cchaps.pdf (pg 235 of the pdf file --- bold text added for emphasis)...

QUOTE
"From the limited number of recovered structural steel elements, no conclusive evidence was found to indicate that pre-collapse fires were severe enough to have a significant effect on the microstructure that would have resulted in weakening of the steel structure"


This is one of the most important summary findings in the report.

No evidence was found in the metallurgical analysis of the steel for fire causing the collapses.

Now this is damning evidence from the NIST report itself.

Not being 'stupid', the sophists and semantics people quickly discover their 'supposed salvation' of the gravity-collapse Fairy Tale through the words...

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
"From the limited number of recovered structural steel elements, no conclusive evidence was found to indicate that pre-collapse fires were severe enough to have a significant effect on the microstructure that would have resulted in weakening of the steel structure"


This is one of the most important summary findings in the report.

No evidence was found in the metallurgical analysis of the steel for fire causing the collapses.

Now this is damning evidence from the NIST report itself.

Not being 'stupid', the sophists and semantics people quickly discover their 'supposed salvation' of the gravity-collapse Fairy Tale through the words...

"From the limited number of recovered structural steel elements... no evidence... tada tada


This is what all the Liars always use to try to obfuscate this NIST statement and 'salvage' their precious Fairy Tale.

However in doing so, they wish to ignore certain relevant FACTS related to the collection of steel in the FIRST PLACE, as is well documented in pre-NIST (and even NIST) reports.

Those 'pre-NIST' collectors-of-evidence specifically looked for steel samples from the cores of the towers that had been exposed to fire and/OR been exposed to aircraft impact damage... From the NIST report -
http://www.house.gov/science/hot/wtc/wtc-r.../WTC_apndxD.pdf (Appendix D (pages 2, 3 of the pdf file)...

QUOTE
Specifically, the engineers looked for the following types of steel members:
Exterior column trees and interior core columns from WTC 1 and WTC 2 that were exposed to fire and/or impacted by the aircraft.
Exterior column trees and interior core columns from WTC 1 and WTC 2 that were above the impact zone.
Badly burnt pieces from WTC 7.


From the draft summary...
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NCSTAR1-3ExecutiveSummary.pdf (page 3 of the pdf file)

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Specifically, the engineers looked for the following types of steel members:
Exterior column trees and interior core columns from WTC 1 and WTC 2 that were exposed to fire and/or impacted by the aircraft.
Exterior column trees and interior core columns from WTC 1 and WTC 2 that were above the impact zone.
Badly burnt pieces from WTC 7.


From the draft summary...
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NCSTAR1-3ExecutiveSummary.pdf (page 3 of the pdf file)

"A number of structural pieces were recovered from locations in or near the impact- and fire-damaged regions of the towers, including four perimeter panels directly hit by the airplane and three core columns located within these areas.


"Observations of paint cracking due to thermal expansion. Of the more than 170 areas examined on 16 perimeter column panels, only three columns had evidence that the steel reached temperatures above 250 deg C... and Only two core column specimens had sufficient paint remaining to make such an analysis, and their temperatures did not reach 250 ºC "

They did not procure ANY steel samples that were not relevant for analysis due to lack of impact or fire damage.

That is also significant in that this 'unprocured & rejected' samples represented the vast majority of all the steel they rummaged through at the debris sites.

There WAS NO NEED (according to the parameters which they wished to study) to COLLECT Columns OUTSIDE of the FIRE and Aircraft DAMAGE ZONE. WHY??? (unless you want to study it for evidence of 'explosives'?... and they surely DID NOT WANT to Go THERE).

If they had collected ALL steel having been identified as "undamaged by fire or impact", the percentage of total steel identified would be much greater than the specifically damaged 1/4 to 1/2% they analysed.

IF, they were looking for evidence of explosive demolition... THEN... ALL the steel would HAVE to be collected and SAVED for investigation... but they WEREN'T... WERE THEY ???

So their 'task' was ONLY to collect and save the MOST REPRESENTATIVE pieces of steel FROM the...

QUOTE
"locations in or near the impact- and fire-damaged regions of the towers"


NOW ... the gravity-driven collapse supporters wail and cry with crocodile tears about... the 'collected pieces' ONLY represented about 1/4 - 1/2 of 1 %the steel in the towers. Hey... don't go crying on MY shoulder. YOU were THE ONES who said...

"We don't NEED ALL the steel, JUST the MOST REPRESENTATIVE steel FROM the areas of the Impact & FIRES.

Well, I'm afraid your 'knowledgeable buddies in the civil engineering field', DID go out and collect the MOST REPRESENTATIVE pieces they could find from these Fire & Impact Areas... (no need to collect pieces from those areas which showed NO SIGNS of heat OR Impact damage....

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
"locations in or near the impact- and fire-damaged regions of the towers"


NOW ... the gravity-driven collapse supporters wail and cry with crocodile tears about... the 'collected pieces' ONLY represented about 1/4 - 1/2 of 1 %the steel in the towers. Hey... don't go crying on MY shoulder. YOU were THE ONES who said...

"We don't NEED ALL the steel, JUST the MOST REPRESENTATIVE steel FROM the areas of the Impact & FIRES.

Well, I'm afraid your 'knowledgeable buddies in the civil engineering field', DID go out and collect the MOST REPRESENTATIVE pieces they could find from these Fire & Impact Areas... (no need to collect pieces from those areas which showed NO SIGNS of heat OR Impact damage....

"Yep, we CAN IDENTIFY 'THESE PARTS' as having come from the Fire / Impact Damage Zone...

But, we don't find any extreme signs of impact or fire on 'THESE' Pieces (so we don't NEED to save THEM).

We are ONLY LOOKING to save 'Relevant' parts from the fire & impact zones which exhibit Fire & Impact Damage.


Well, they DID THAT, Folks! They DID SAVE THE MOST RELEVANT PIECES they could find from the Fire & Impact zones.... some 230 pieces?

UNFORTUNATELY...

These 'MOST RELEVANT' pieces they COULD find, DO NOT support the Fairy Tale of these mythological raging infernos...

these 'MOST RELEVANT' pieces they collected & catalogued... REFUTE the FAIRY TALE of these Amazing Hiding Steel-EATING & Compromising FIRES !!!

The towers had 400,000 tons of steel. And, "more than 350,000 tons of steel have been extracted from Ground Zero and barged or trucked to salvage yards where it is cut up for recycling." (from NIST report Appendix D, page 1 of pdf file - 1st link above)

So they were able to sift through over 80% of the steel at the yards, found four core columns worthy of analysis, three of them from the impact / fire areas, and none of them exposed to fires of over 250C.

So again, NIST summarizes....

http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-3Cchaps.pdf (page 235 of pdf file)...

QUOTE
"From the limited number of recovered structural steel elements, no conclusive evidence was found to indicate that pre-collapse fires were severe enough to have a significant effect on the microstructure that would have resulted in weakening of the steel structure"


In light of the fact over 80% of the steel was available for inspection, and was nearly all rejected for analysis, they could have stated... "Over 80% of the total steel was sifted through, and of the 1/4 to 1/2% deemed worthy of recovering, no conclusive evidence was found that pre-collapse fires were severe enough...."

I think that inspecting over 80% of the steel makes it more like "no evidence was found" than "no conclusive evidence was found"

(Thanks Turbonium)

So now, if some of you newcomers wish to hash it ALL out again (going round the mulberry Bush)...with an obvious obfuscator & Liar like 'THE Schniebster'... carry on...

There WERE NO Steel-Killing Fires at the WTC.

We HAVE forensic and emprical data which supports THAT.

Forget about 'The Schneibsters', and lets move on...

How about addressing my list of factors about the anomalous underground fires, Schnieby, and see if you can come up with a PLAUSIBLE gravity-driven collapse scenario which addresses ALL those factors to FIT a gravity-driven collapse...

Good Luck.

I think metamars has a better chance of offering an 'alternative' to my 'thermite' explanations for those anomalous underground fires that you EVER have.

Cheers.
steve1957
Cosmo,

Ephesians 4:14 "That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

user posted image
wind and confusion video

Ecclesiastes 10:13 "The beginning of the words of his mouth is foolishness: and the end of his talk is mischievous madness".

user posted image
metamars
Note to activists

I have posted a proposal at

http://forums.therandirhodesshow.com/index...showtopic=76406

the subject of which is the creation of an alternative media, meant to replace our current corrupt media. (Of course, it won't completely replace our current media. ) The name of the thread is "Putting the NY Times Out of Business", and the title of the proposal is " Intenet Media (IM) Project Proposal" and subtitled "How to put the NY Times out of business".

Had we had an honest media, we would not be having discussions like the ones in this thread, so long after the fact.


PLEASE TAKE A LOOK AND FORWARD TO ANYBODY WHO MIGHT BE INTERESTED

.dread.
QUOTE (RealityCheck+)
Good luck, gordon. Gotta rush of again! I'll surf through again later today, though; as at last this thread seems to be getting some good-will discussion/physics.

Drop the "good virgin boy" forum persona already. It doesn't work. You only make yourself look more fake (as if that isn't obvious enough). And where will you be rushing off again -- like you have any other agenda, besides masquerading yourself under another username. Sad isn't it, that you need to use multiple forum personalities in order to support your recyclable pathetic lies.

Seeing that you aren't quite self-secure about your "Reality Check" pseudonym, you now summon up yet another idiotic name in the form of "Common Sense". You are quite the hypocrite for coming up with such names, since you as a person, possess none of both. I gotta hand it to you though, because it takes quite a sh*thead of a man to persistently lie to the public, and at the same time, be fully aware of his lying intentions.

Actually, I'm quite surprised that the mods in this site have not done anything in their power to expose your multiple usernames, for the sake of putting a stop to the explicit disinformation you tirelessly publish. Seriously, they ought to reveal your user ip addresses right now. In fact, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that "Common Sense", "Schneibster", "Adoucette", "Yesitdid", "Moron", "Coward", are actually all you. Now before you get all emotional and teary like you often seem to do (especially when insults come your way), you should take into account that by defending lies repeatedly and on a daily basis, sooner or later, life outside of these forums will come crashing down on you (forum insults are nothing compared to what life can do to a person; and yet you cry over computer written text).

The real tragedy is, is that you are too self-deluded and too manipulated to understand the seriousness of your actions. With that being said, I want to remind your highly deficient brain, that the severity of your continuous actions are so grave, for they spread continuous lies at the expense of several thousands of dead innocent victims. Yes that's reality, innocent human beings (thousands of them), have been slaughtered because of the lies that you continue to defend.

If you think for one second that your conscious actions have no severe consequences in life and that they will not attract a dangerous boomerang effect into your life, you are only fooling yourself even more. These forums cannot protect your sorry excuse of a human being from the uncertainties of life. I suggest you start using your common sense as soon as possible and wake up to reality -- if you even know what those two terms truly stand for.
____________________________________________________________________

user posted image
cosmo
Honestly, I don't see how anyone can attempt to defend the absurd pile of nonsense our government would have us believe. All through this forum, defenders of the Official Fairy Tale have been forced to manipulate data, not to mention basic physics principles. Furthermore, they are required to dismiss other pieces of evidence (molten metal and impossible quantities of heat in the rubble, the OBVIOUSLY CONTROLLED WTC7 implosion, the lack of plane wreckage or corresponding destruction at the Pentagon) and the endless list of amazing coincidences that surround that day.

Here's an exercise for Schneiben or RealityChoke or whatever. See if you can figure out what Bert and Osama have in common...
user posted image

RealityCheck
QUOTE (.dread.+Jan 11 2006, 05:35 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+)
Good luck, gordon. Gotta rush of again! I'll surf through again later today, though; as at last this thread seems to be getting some good-will discussion/physics.

Drop the "good virgin boy" forum persona already. It doesn't work. You only make yourself look more fake (as if that isn't obvious enough). And where will you be rushing off again -- like you have any other agenda, besides masquerading yourself under another username. Sad isn't it, that you need to use multiple forum personalities in order to support your recyclable pathetic lies.

Seeing that you aren't quite self-secure about your "Reality Check" pseudonym, you now summon up yet another idiotic name in the form of "Common Sense". You are quite the hypocrite for coming up with such names, since you as a person, possess none of both. I gotta hand it to you though, because it takes quite a sh*thead of a man to persistently lie to the public, and at the same time, be fully aware of his lying intentions.

Actually, I'm quite surprised that the mods in this site have not done anything in their power to expose your multiple usernames, for the sake of putting a stop to the explicit disinformation you tirelessly publish. Seriously, they ought to reveal your user ip addresses right now. In fact, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that "Common Sense", "Schneibster", "Adoucette", "Yesitdid", "Moron", "Coward", are actually all you. Now before you get all emotional and teary like you often seem to do (especially when insults come your way), you should take into account that by defending lies repeatedly and on a daily basis, sooner or later, life outside of these forums will come crashing down on you (forum insults are nothing compared to what life can do to a person; and yet you cry over computer written text).

The real tragedy is, is that you are too self-deluded and too manipulated to understand the seriousness of your actions. With that being said, I want to remind your highly deficient brain, that the severity of your continuous actions are so grave, for they spread continuous lies at the expense of several thousands of dead innocent victims. Yes that's reality, innocent human beings (thousands of them), have been slaughtered because of the lies that you continue to defend.

If you think for one second that your conscious actions have no severe consequences in life and that they will not attract a dangerous boomerang effect into your life, you are only fooling yourself even more. These forums cannot protect your sorry excuse of a human being from the uncertainties of life. I suggest you start using your common sense as soon as possible and wake up to reality -- if you even know what those two terms truly stand for.
____________________________________________________________________

user posted image


Well......

Now we ALL know for sure what ".dread" is. He/she cannot tell one person from another, so how can he/she possibly be right about anything else going into his/her twisted perception of what is true or not? He/she started out as a ghoul and come back as a total paranoid schizo. Nice going. He/she is as irrelevant HERE as he/she obviously must be elsewhere in his/her sphere of activity, and doesn't even know THAT. Sad case of attention seeking and complete ineffectuality in everything he/she does. It must be hell on Earth for him/her......beyond help and only waiting for the people in white coats to come and collect the garbage of life's failed experiments: ".dread" and its kind. Sad but there it is; useless in physics as in everything else. Poor thing.

RC.
.
Foxx
QUOTE (yesitdid+Jan 10 2006, 04:38 AM)
QUOTE (galdur+Jan 9 2006, 11:41 PM)
I'm sure some of you think that the towers were
flimsy structures but unfortunately for you that
was not the case at all. They were built to withstand
winds of 140 miles/hr. (they were situated close to the
sea where you can expect high wind) and the impact
of a Boeing 707 (since they dwarfed the surroundings
this was a natural precaution).

Have you ever seen a building that has had steel columns severed by a hurricane wind?

Hi YID... just trying to catch up.

I missed your earlier post before... but I must admit that I have NEVER SEEN a ...

QUOTE
"...building that has had steel columns severed by a hurricane wind"


Please post some pictures of a steel column 'severed' by hurricane-force winds.

Thanks biggrin.gif


Guest
Who has disrupted this thread more than anyone else has? Steve 1957 starts attacking Metemars when he is looking for ideas to make a change. Who has no redeeming quality’s and hides behind scripture while spamming the thread? The other shills are obvious.
Foxx
QUOTE (Guest+Jan 11 2006, 06:44 AM)
Who has disrupted this thread more than anyone else has? Steve 1957 starts attacking Metemars when he is looking for ideas to make a change. Who has no redeeming quality’s and hides behind scripture while spamming the thread? The other shills are obvious.

Nonsense... ???

I do NOT pay attention to those who hide behind 'Guest' posts.

Well, seeing as all the gravity-driven collapse supporters wish to derail and obfuscate the topic...

Just thought I would do the same...

...and provide a 'heads-up to the latest Incat addition (which I received today)...

QUOTE
Attached is information on the latest ship sale from Incat.

A high resolution image is available in the media section of the Incat website at www.incat.com.au.


Wave-Piercing Ferry...

User posted image




As Incat is in Aussie-land, I thought you might find it 'interesting' Reality Check

IF you think I don't have 'connections' .... think again.


RealityCheck
QUOTE (Foxx+Jan 11 2006, 06:59 AM)
QUOTE (Guest+Jan 11 2006, 06:44 AM)
Who has disrupted this thread more than anyone else has? Steve 1957 starts attacking Metemars when he is looking for ideas to make a change. Who has no redeeming quality’s and hides behind scripture while spamming the thread? The other shills are obvious.

Nonsense... ???

I do NOT pay attention to those who hide behind 'Guest' posts.

Well, seeing as all the gravity-driven collapse supporters wish to derail and obfuscate the topic...

Just thought I would do the same...

...and provide a 'heads-up to the latest Incat addition (which I received today)...

QUOTE
Attached is information on the latest ship sale from Incat.

A high resolution image is available in the media section of the Incat website at www.incat.com.au.


Wave-Piercing Ferry...

User posted image




As Incat is in Aussie-land, I thought you might find it 'interesting' Reality Check

IF you think I don't have 'connections' .... think again.


Hi Foxx!

A Tasmanian Firm. And you being in the 'composite materials' contruction game would be remiss if you did NOT know of them, heh? So it's no surprise to me that you may have 'colleagues' in that Firm/Business. BTW, are you in any way involved with Burt Rutan and/or any of the other people in the 'space race' construction of private-commercial spaceships/craft etc? That would be WAY MORE interesting to me because I have done much research into aero-space materials/propulsion/systems for some years now. Ciao, mate!

RC.
.
Divine Justice
QUOTE (.dread.+Jan 11 2006, 05:35 AM)
In fact, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that "Common Sense", "Schneibster", "Adoucette", "Yesitdid", "Moron", "Coward", are actually all you.

Although some of them are multiples, there's a whole team of shills operating on this thread : they're not all the same traitor.

adoucette (Arthur Doucette) works for a texan bank (Carreker) with ties to Diebold, while Common Sense is Luis Perez, from Paterson, New Jersey.

Kudos to the truth people for wrestling the liars so valiantly for over 220 pages.
zoktoberfest
Gravity driven collapse = acceleration X mass

Going back through the thread, I revisited "area 50", aka, schneibster's thesis page. He posted his edict upon the door, of the "Church of Perpetual Curiosity", like "Luther" with a sledge and a spike. The great Oz had spoken "a tale... full of sound and fury,.....".

Burn off the head
drop on to the body
count to ten
dust to dust; ashes to ashes.

But...

Collapse force = quantity x quality

Whereby;

Quantity is the rough aggregate of the upper sections, constituent mass.
Quality is the conceptualization, of the nature of compromise, that beset the core.

Was the core:

obliterated or just sectionally voided?
severed or broken?
touching or attached?
fractured or plasticized?
deformed or bent?
compressed or nominal?

One tower hit high, the other low
One core struck, the other missed
One took more fuel, the other less.
One acquiesced, the other endured
One didn't pre-collapse, the other did

Dissimilar failure premises
similar failure conclusions

I don't understand how the acceleration in F=MA is calculated? Of course gravity will always do its thing but over what distance? What level of core discontinuity is being considered and why? With all the emphasis, attributed to thermal influenced failure, why couldn't one suggest that the core would have relieved its stress gradually via a plasticized, deformation. Schneibster is using distances for his acceleration values that are (multiple) factors of story height. He's, therefore, implying (deriving?) huge voids in the core structure. It almost seems to me, that schneibster just assumed, a requisite force magnitude. Then approximated the mass and derived the distance (core damage) by solving for acceleration. Reverse engineering. A=F/M The only value that can be reasonably estimated is mass. How can you derive other values when you only have an approximation for one? (?)F=m X (?)A ???????????????????????????

(assumed)Garbage in>(official) garbage out
Temp
Had better sign in properly in future lest I be associated with the "shills". Not being a physics head; I personally feel a little apprehension about posting on your board. Intriguing stuff from a "day one" skeptic's from point of view, nonetheless. I'm going to keep visisting, and maybe post occasionally.

Great work guys, BTW.

Arthur etc,

I wont call you names - the last tactic of the scoundrel indeed; and shill is too kind a word, but don't you realise you cannot continue to perpetuate the utter bullshit that surrounsds the most shameful, cowardly act of terrorism ever committed by a nation against it's own people. You should be ashamed of yourselves. But you are aren't you? But the pay is good!



adoucette
Pay is great.

So are the Bennies.

Good medical plan, lots of time off, fantastic retirement deal.

As they say, Sweeeet.

Arthur
brian
Foxx, brilliant, NIST beats itself up.

metamars, hope your hard work proves fruitful, your IM is sorely needed.

From Sinclair at nineeleven. uk -

Here is a copy of a post I made on another board:

Quote:

From http://wtc.nist.gov/media/WTC7_draftSOW.htm , 'NIST is interested in receiving technical comments about the scope of work and technical approach for The draft statement of work for structural analysis of WTC 7

This is somewhat behind the NIST previously stated timetable for the scheduled FINAL WTC7 report issue date of December 2005........The timetable (from the document) will now be no earlier than November 2006.

The PDF document at http://wtc.nist.gov/media/Draft_SOW_WTC7jan06.pdf provides details of the draft statement of work for the WTC7 analysis required.

This webpage was updated on 4th Jan 2006 & for any contractors to be considered, they must contact NIST on or before January 10, 2006. That does not give any independent companies much time!

It'll be interesting to note to whom the contract goes to, & what their previous association/history is with the NIST/Bushco government.

Some interesting excerpts from the Draft Statement of Work Document:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Previous Analyses
Previous analyses were conducted by NIST as part of the WTC Investigation. [So the best US Goverment Scientists cannot come up with a theory that fits!!] The work will be made available to the Contractor as background information. The work of the Contractor shall not be limited by these models, hypothesis, or analysis results. A working collapse hypothesis is described in the June 2004 Progress Report on the Federal Building and Fire Safety Investigation of the World Trade Center Disaster (Volume 1, pg 17), as follows:
• An initial local failure at the lower floors (below floor 13) of the building due to fire and/or debris induced structural damage of a critical column (the initiating event), which supported a large span floor bay with an area of about 2,000 ft2,
• Vertical progression of the initial local failure up to the east penthouse, as large floor bays were unable to redistribute the loads, bringing down the interior structure below the east penthouse; and
• Horizontal progression of the failure across the lower floors (in the region of floors 5 and 7 that were much thicker and more heavily reinforced than the rest of the floors), triggered by damage due to the vertical failure, resulting in disproportionate collapse of the entire structure.

This hypothesis may be supported or modified, or new hypotheses may be developed through the course of this study. [i.e. anything that fits, please!!!]

Previous models and analyses included:
• Identification of events and data from photographs, videos, and witness accounts.
• Studies of fire spread and growth on Floors 5, 7, and 8.
• Studies of heat transfer to Core Columns 79, 80, and 81 on Floors 5, 7, and 8.
• SAP2000 linear global model of WTC 7, which was based on structural drawings, that included beam elements for columns and floor beams, and representative shell elements for reinforced concrete floor slabs. The model was evaluated for design gravity and wind loads, service gravity loads, and stability for damage conditions caused by debris impact.
• Studies of Core Column 79 (see Appendix A) response to elevated temperature profiles for collapse initiation, using Mathcad calculations and an ANSYS shell element model.
• SAP2000 model of a single floor model representative of Floors 8 to 46. The floor model was more detailed than the floors in the global model; plastic hinges were added at specific locations to beams and columns. Core columns support was removed (i.e. Columns 76 to 81 were removed individually in separate analyses) to determine the mode of floor failure as part of the analysis of the vertical progression of failure.
• SAP2000 model for the horizontal progression analyses of failure across the lower core columns. The model was extracted from the global model and plastic hinges were added at specific locations to beams and columns. The horizontal progression was analyzed by removal of components or application of an action resulting from a failure of Floor 5 or Floor 7.
• SAP2000 kinematic model (frame elements with all beam-columns connections assumed to be pinned) was used to evaluate the effect of assumed column failures and determine the resulting deformed shape of the structure.

The models will be made available to the Contractor for use as appropriate. The input files have been updated to SAP2000 version 10.

Objective
The objective of this solicitation is (1) to conduct analyses that support the determination of the location and cause of the initiating event and the probable collapse sequence, in conjunction with parallel NIST analyses, and (2) to validate the results with observations from video and photographic records and other evidence.

Scope of Work
In this scope of work, the determination of the location and cause of the initiating event is given primary importance. The sequence of failures following the initiating event that led to global collapse, while also important, is dependent upon the proper identification of the initiating event.

While the sequence of failures following the initiating event may be adequately addressed with less detailed analyses, the analyses must be of sufficient rigor to support the identification of the probable sequence of failures.

For all tasks included in this solicitation, the models, assumptions, and analyses will be subject to review and approval by NIST. NIST will arrange for third parties to conduct independent reviews before final approval. NIST plans to retain a third party expert in structural system behavior, structural stability, and failure criteria for members and system failure. The third party expert will provide expert technical assistance to guide and assist the Contractor’s work, but it is the Contractor’s responsibility to conduct the work described in this SOW. Third party experts will also review Contractor reports for: (1) appropriateness of the models for their intended uses, including modeling assumptions, level of detail, model geometry and material properties, and
verification and validation procedures; and (2) appropriateness of the analyses and accuracy of results.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



So it seems that NIST have had difficulty in undertaking the analysis themselves & now wish to sub-contract out the difficult 'donkey work' to a contractor who will play along. Advance notice of this iminent Work Package MUST have been given to the likely winning contractor as it would be impossible for any contractor to prepare the price for & submit such a bid within the 5 day 'notice of Interest' period given.

The use of a sub-contarctor (who will dance to the NIST Paymaster) will allow the excuse to be used when the analysis is criticised (as was used before in relation to criticisms of the NIST's reluctance to fully model the collapse visualisation & initiating events [NCE article of 6th October 2005]) along the lines of "Well, it was a sub-contractor & we have now terminated his contract.

The WTC7 report sure is proving difficult to produce..............
galdur
Wow, NIST is now advertising for nonsensical fables. laugh.gif

How appropriate. And understandable. laugh.gif
Guest_yesitdid
QUOTE (Foxx+Jan 11 2006, 06:25 AM)
QUOTE (yesitdid+Jan 10 2006, 04:38 AM)
QUOTE (galdur+Jan 9 2006, 11:41 PM)
I'm sure some of you think that the towers were
flimsy structures but unfortunately for you that
was not the case at all. They were built to withstand
winds of 140 miles/hr. (they were situated close to the
sea where you can expect high wind) and the impact
of a Boeing 707 (since they dwarfed the surroundings
this was a natural precaution).

Have you ever seen a building that has had steel columns severed by a hurricane wind?

Hi YID... just trying to catch up.

I missed your earlier post before... but I must admit that I have NEVER SEEN a ...

QUOTE
"...building that has had steel columns severed by a hurricane wind"


Please post some pictures of a steel column 'severed' by hurricane-force winds.

Thanks biggrin.gif

Once again Foxx has trouble with reading comprehension.

I was referring to the fact of severed columns in the towers. Columns that were severed by the aircraft impacts which many have tried to compare to the hurricane force winds that the towers were designed to withstand.
metamars
QUOTE (brian+Jan 10 2006, 02:59 PM)
metamars, how about puttting to professor Jones the idea of making his presentation available in DVD format? This must surely be relatively easy with the resources available to him and costs minimal if it was made available for download for anyone to then copy and distribute.

To my mind the Jones paper was a milestone in raising the level of the debate and it would be a major bonus if it could be spread far and wide with the use of the technology almost everyone has access to.

Worthwhile as some of the DVDs on September 11 are many lump too much disparate information together whereas the thrust of Professor Jones presentation on the scientific aspects of the WTC collapse means the viewers would be focussed on the smoking howitzer.

An example - I have handed out a good number of Loose Change and it has been my experience that many come away impressed mostly by the Pentagon side of it. Not to express an opinion on the Pentagon but like Foxx I see it as a cul de sac best left aside at this juncture.

I just sent Professor Jones 2 emails. One was to ask him to elaborate on his paper by including Euler buckling theory

http://www.efunda.com/formulae/solid_mecha...s/eccentric.cfm

and to also debunk Bazant-Zhou's paper.


The other email was to request that he record his upcoming WTC discussion. I referred him to frater plecticus, as well as pointing out that there are probably "bazillions" of other activists who'd also be overjoyed to help out. :-)


Thanks for you suggestion.


Foxx
QUOTE (brian+Jan 11 2006, 12:53 PM)
Foxx, brilliant, NIST beats itself up.

metamars, hope your hard work proves fruitful, your IM is sorely needed.

From Sinclair at nineeleven. uk -

Here is a copy of a post I made on another board:

Quote:

From http://wtc.nist.gov/media/WTC7_draftSOW.htm , 'NIST is interested in receiving technical comments about the scope of work and technical approach for The draft statement of work for structural analysis of WTC 7

This is somewhat behind the NIST previously stated timetable for the scheduled FINAL WTC7 report issue date of December 2005........The timetable (from the document) will now be no earlier than November 2006.

The PDF document at http://wtc.nist.gov/media/Draft_SOW_WTC7jan06.pdf provides details of the draft statement of work for the WTC7 analysis required.

This webpage was updated on 4th Jan 2006 & for any contractors to be considered, they must contact NIST on or before January 10, 2006. That does not give any independent companies much time!

It'll be interesting to note to whom the contract goes to, & what their previous association/history is with the NIST/Bushco government.

Some interesting excerpts from the Draft Statement of Work Document:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Previous Analyses
Previous analyses were conducted by NIST as part of the WTC Investigation. [So the best US Goverment Scientists cannot come up with a theory that fits!!] The work will be made available to the Contractor as background information. The work of the Contractor shall not be limited by these models, hypothesis, or analysis results. A working collapse hypothesis is described in the June 2004 Progress Report on the Federal Building and Fire Safety Investigation of the World Trade Center Disaster (Volume 1, pg 17), as follows:
• An initial local failure at the lower floors (below floor 13) of the building due to fire and/or debris induced structural damage of a critical column (the initiating event), which supported a large span floor bay with an area of about 2,000 ft2,
• Vertical progression of the initial local failure up to the east penthouse, as large floor bays were unable to redistribute the loads, bringing down the interior structure below the east penthouse; and
• Horizontal progression of the failure across the lower floors (in the region of floors 5 and 7 that were much thicker and more heavily reinforced than the rest of the floors), triggered by damage due to the vertical failure, resulting in disproportionate collapse of the entire structure.

This hypothesis may be supported or modified, or new hypotheses may be developed through the course of this study. [i.e. anything that fits, please!!!]

Previous models and analyses included:
• Identification of events and data from photographs, videos, and witness accounts.
• Studies of fire spread and growth on Floors 5, 7, and 8.
• Studies of heat transfer to Core Columns 79, 80, and 81 on Floors 5, 7, and 8.
• SAP2000 linear global model of WTC 7, which was based on structural drawings, that included beam elements for columns and floor beams, and representative shell elements for reinforced concrete floor slabs. The model was evaluated for design gravity and wind loads, service gravity loads, and stability for damage conditions caused by debris impact.
• Studies of Core Column 79 (see Appendix A) response to elevated temperature profiles for collapse initiation, using Mathcad calculations and an ANSYS shell element model.
• SAP2000 model of a single floor model representative of Floors 8 to 46. The floor model was more detailed than the floors in the global model; plastic hinges were added at specific locations to beams and columns. Core columns support was removed (i.e. Columns 76 to 81 were removed individually in separate analyses) to determine the mode of floor failure as part of the analysis of the vertical progression of failure.
• SAP2000 model for the horizontal progression analyses of failure across the lower core columns. The model was extracted from the global model and plastic hinges were added at specific locations to beams and columns. The horizontal progression was analyzed by removal of components or application of an action resulting from a failure of Floor 5 or Floor 7.
• SAP2000 kinematic model (frame elements with all beam-columns connections assumed to be pinned) was used to evaluate the effect of assumed column failures and determine the resulting deformed shape of the structure.

The models will be made available to the Contractor for use as appropriate. The input files have been updated to SAP2000 version 10.

Objective
The objective of this solicitation is (1) to conduct analyses that support the determination of the location and cause of the initiating event and the probable collapse sequence, in conjunction with parallel NIST analyses, and (2) to validate the results with observations from video and photographic records and other evidence.

Scope of Work
In this scope of work, the determination of the location and cause of the initiating event is given primary importance. The sequence of failures following the initiating event that led to global collapse, while also important, is dependent upon the proper identification of the initiating event.

While the sequence of failures following the initiating event may be adequately addressed with less detailed analyses, the analyses must be of sufficient rigor to support the identification of the probable sequence of failures.

For all tasks included in this solicitation, the models, assumptions, and analyses will be subject to review and approval by NIST. NIST will arrange for third parties to conduct independent reviews before final approval. NIST plans to retain a third party expert in structural system behavior, structural stability, and failure criteria for members and system failure. The third party expert will provide expert technical assistance to guide and assist the Contractor’s work, but it is the Contractor’s responsibility to conduct the work described in this SOW. Third party experts will also review Contractor reports for: (1) appropriateness of the models for their intended uses, including modeling assumptions, level of detail, model geometry and material properties, and
verification and validation procedures; and (2) appropriateness of the analyses and accuracy of results.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



So it seems that NIST have had difficulty in undertaking the analysis themselves & now wish to sub-contract out the difficult 'donkey work' to a contractor who will play along. Advance notice of this iminent Work Package MUST have been given to the likely winning contractor as it would be impossible for any contractor to prepare the price for & submit such a bid within the 5 day 'notice of Interest' period given.

The use of a sub-contarctor (who will dance to the NIST Paymaster) will allow the excuse to be used when the analysis is criticised (as was used before in relation to criticisms of the NIST's reluctance to fully model the collapse visualisation & initiating events [NCE article of 6th October 2005]) along the lines of "Well, it was a sub-contractor & we have now terminated his contract.

The WTC7 report sure is proving difficult to produce..............

Heh... What a SHAM !!!

Wait on... little Arthur... biggrin.gif
Foxx
QUOTE
Originally posted by RC
Hi Foxx!

A Tasmanian Firm. And you being in the 'composite materials' contruction game would be remiss if you did NOT know of them, heh?


Idiot !!!

Incat builds ALUMINUM craft - Absolutely nothing to do with Reinforced Composites.
Schneibster
QUOTE (Foxx+Jan 11 2006, 04:15 AM)
Hi All...

I see The Schneibster has returned under his pen-name 'Schneibster'.

What has he 'returned' WITH... ???

Nothing more than recycling his earlier posts regarding 'The Fires'.

I guess he thinks that this refuted argument has been absent long enough, and that everyone has forgotten the refutation, so he figures it's time to run through it all again with 'new' links about hypotheticals related to fire-engineering ---

* conduction, convection, radiation, heat absorption, smoke generation, hiding fires, and on and on ---

* "If you can't baffle 'em with BS, then try to blind 'em with Science" ---

* obfuscate... the last topic was getting too hot - so change the topic --- "What?... don't have any new info, then quick... recycle old arguments (as if they are fresh and NEW).

Well... I guess if we MUST recycle old arguements, then (once again) we MUST recycle the refutation of all these unsupported hypotheticals...


1 - From the NIST report...
http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-3Cchaps.pdf (pg 235 of the pdf file --- bold text added for emphasis)...

QUOTE
"From the limited number of recovered structural steel elements, no conclusive evidence was found to indicate that pre-collapse fires were severe enough to have a significant effect on the microstructure that would have resulted in weakening of the steel structure"


This is one of the most important summary findings in the report.

No evidence was found in the metallurgical analysis of the steel for fire causing the collapses.

Now this is damning evidence from the NIST report itself.

Not being 'stupid', the sophists and semantics people quickly discover their 'supposed salvation' of the gravity-collapse Fairy Tale through the words...

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
"From the limited number of recovered structural steel elements, no conclusive evidence was found to indicate that pre-collapse fires were severe enough to have a significant effect on the microstructure that would have resulted in weakening of the steel structure"


This is one of the most important summary findings in the report.

No evidence was found in the metallurgical analysis of the steel for fire causing the collapses.

Now this is damning evidence from the NIST report itself.

Not being 'stupid', the sophists and semantics people quickly discover their 'supposed salvation' of the gravity-collapse Fairy Tale through the words...

"From the limited number of recovered structural steel elements... no evidence... tada tada


This is what all the Liars always use to try to obfuscate this NIST statement and 'salvage' their precious Fairy Tale.

However in doing so, they wish to ignore certain relevant FACTS related to the collection of steel in the FIRST PLACE, as is well documented in pre-NIST (and even NIST) reports.

Those 'pre-NIST' collectors-of-evidence specifically looked for steel samples from the cores of the towers that had been exposed to fire and/OR been exposed to aircraft impact damage... From the NIST report -
http://www.house.gov/science/hot/wtc/wtc-r.../WTC_apndxD.pdf (Appendix D (pages 2, 3 of the pdf file)...

QUOTE
Specifically, the engineers looked for the following types of steel members:
Exterior column trees and interior core columns from WTC 1 and WTC 2 that were exposed to fire and/or impacted by the aircraft.
Exterior column trees and interior core columns from WTC 1 and WTC 2 that were above the impact zone.
Badly burnt pieces from WTC 7.


From the draft summary...
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NCSTAR1-3ExecutiveSummary.pdf (page 3 of the pdf file)

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Specifically, the engineers looked for the following types of steel members:
Exterior column trees and interior core columns from WTC 1 and WTC 2 that were exposed to fire and/or impacted by the aircraft.
Exterior column trees and interior core columns from WTC 1 and WTC 2 that were above the impact zone.
Badly burnt pieces from WTC 7.


From the draft summary...
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NCSTAR1-3ExecutiveSummary.pdf (page 3 of the pdf file)

"A number of structural pieces were recovered from locations in or near the impact- and fire-damaged regions of the towers, including four perimeter panels directly hit by the airplane and three core columns located within these areas.


The three core columns purposely recovered from the impact and fire-damaged regions did not reach temperatures even up to 250C {as mentioned before}.

They did not procure ANY steel samples that were not relevant for analysis due to lack of impact or fire damage.

That is also significant in that this 'unprocured & rejected' samples represented the vast majority of all the steel they rummaged through at the debris sites.

There WAS NO NEED (according to the parameters which they wished to study) to COLLECT Columns OUTSIDE of the FIRE and Aircraft DAMAGE ZONE. WHY??? (unless you want to study it for evidence of 'explosives'?... and they surely DID NOT WANT to Go THERE).

If they had collected ALL steel having been identified as "undamaged by fire or impact", the percentage of total steel identified would be much greater than the specifically damaged 1/4 to 1/2% they analysed.

IF, they were looking for evidence of explosive demolition... THEN... ALL the steel would HAVE to be collected and SAVED for investigation... but they WEREN'T... WERE THEY ???

So their 'task' was ONLY to collect and save the MOST REPRESENTATIVE pieces of steel FROM the...

QUOTE
"locations in or near the impact- and fire-damaged regions of the towers"


NOW ... the gravity-driven collapse supporters wail and cry with crocodile tears about... the 'collected pieces' ONLY represented about 1/4 - 1/2 of 1 %the steel in the towers. Hey... don't go crying on MY shoulder. YOU were THE ONES who said...

"We don't NEED ALL the steel, JUST the MOST REPRESENTATIVE steel FROM the areas of the Impact & FIRES.

Well, I'm afraid your 'knowledgeable buddies in the civil engineering field', DID go out and collect the MOST REPRESENTATIVE pieces they could find from these Fire & Impact Areas... (no need to collect pieces from those areas which showed NO SIGNS of heat OR Impact damage....

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
"locations in or near the impact- and fire-damaged regions of the towers"


NOW ... the gravity-driven collapse supporters wail and cry with crocodile tears about... the 'collected pieces' ONLY represented about 1/4 - 1/2 of 1 %the steel in the towers. Hey... don't go crying on MY shoulder. YOU were THE ONES who said...

"We don't NEED ALL the steel, JUST the MOST REPRESENTATIVE steel FROM the areas of the Impact & FIRES.

Well, I'm afraid your 'knowledgeable buddies in the civil engineering field', DID go out and collect the MOST REPRESENTATIVE pieces they could find from these Fire & Impact Areas... (no need to collect pieces from those areas which showed NO SIGNS of heat OR Impact damage....

"Yep, we CAN IDENTIFY 'THESE PARTS' as having come from the Fire / Impact Damage Zone...

But, we don't find any extreme signs of impact or fire on 'THESE' Pieces (so we don't NEED to save THEM).

We are ONLY LOOKING to save 'Relevant' parts from the fire & impact zones which exhibit Fire & Impact Damage.


Well, they DID THAT, Folks! They DID SAVE THE MOST RELEVANT PIECES they could find from the Fire & Impact zones.... some 230 pieces?

UNFORTUNATELY...

These 'MOST RELEVANT' pieces they COULD find, DO NOT support the Fairy Tale of these mythological raging infernos...

these 'MOST RELEVANT' pieces they collected & catalogued... REFUTE the FAIRY TALE of these Amazing Hiding Steel-EATING & Compromising FIRES !!!

The towers had 400,000 tons of steel. And, "more than 350,000 tons of steel have been extracted from Ground Zero and barged or trucked to salvage yards where it is cut up for recycling." (from NIST report Appendix D, page 1 of pdf file - 1st link above)

So they were able to sift through over 80% of the steel at the yards, found four core columns worthy of analysis, three of them from the impact / fire areas, and none of them exposed to fires of over 250C.

So again, NIST summarizes....

http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-3Cchaps.pdf (page 235 of pdf file)...

QUOTE
"From the limited number of recovered structural steel elements, no conclusive evidence was found to indicate that pre-collapse fires were severe enough to have a significant effect on the microstructure that would have resulted in weakening of the steel structure"


In light of the fact over 80% of the steel was available for inspection, and was nearly all rejected for analysis, they could have stated... "Over 80% of the total steel was sifted through, and of the 1/4 to 1/2% deemed worthy of recovering, no conclusive evidence was found that pre-collapse fires were severe enough...."

I think that inspecting over 80% of the steel makes it more like "no evidence was found" than "no conclusive evidence was found"

(Thanks Turbonium)

So now, if some of you newcomers wish to hash it ALL out again (going round the mulberry Bush)...with an obvious obfuscator & Liar like 'THE Schniebster'... carry on...

There WERE NO Steel-Killing Fires at the WTC.

We HAVE forensic and emprical data which supports THAT.

Forget about 'The Schneibsters', and lets move on...

How about addressing my list of factors about the anomalous underground fires, Schnieby, and see if you can come up with a PLAUSIBLE gravity-driven collapse scenario which addresses ALL those factors to FIT a gravity-driven collapse...

Good Luck.

I think metamars has a better chance of offering an 'alternative' to my 'thermite' explanations for those anomalous underground fires that you EVER have.

Cheers.

First of all, anyone who had actually read the text of the document provided would have immediately noticed that the authors of the Fire Safety Journal article explicitly state that the NIST investigation MISSED what they have found. So basing arguments against it on the NIST investigation without evaluating whether the NIST investigation produced correct results in this area is a mistake of the first order.

Second, basing conclusions as to the temperatures of the fires on the extremely limited information that NIST derived from the extremely limited number of structural elements NIST examined is like trying to describe the elephant based on examination of its detached tail. This has been pointed out at least twice in the last four pages, and never addressed- once again, instead of doing analysis and showing something new, Faux repeats the same old, same old, tired, dead arguments as if repetition lends them strength they didn't have in the first place. It's also worth pointing out that while no conclusive information was available from this analysis that shows that there was weakening of the structure due to fire, THAT ALSO MEANS THERE WAS NO CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE THAT THE STRUCTURE WAS NOT SO WEAKENED. Conclusive evidence to show that the structure was NOT weakened in this way would require EXHAUSTIVE analysis of ALL the structural members from the affected area, which explicitly was NOT done. To top it all off, has anyone considered that the absence of ALL of these structural members may be a clue in and of itself to what happened?

Third, deliberate obfuscation of the two different areas covered by the Fire Safety Journal article and my program, as if they were the same thing, when they clearly are not and clearly do not account for the same phenomena, but are linked because one describes collapse initiation whereas the other describes collapse continuation, is ongoing. It is deliberate, and it is deceptive. Faux wishes to avoid the evidence, and to avoid any sort of serious examination of the circumstances, and will use any underhanded reasoning it can find to avoid it. Don't be fooled; this individual has no moral compunction about lying, misrepresenting, using invalid arguments, or any other procedure whatsoever. This has been proven repeatedly and conclusively. It is morally corrupt, and without personal integrity. It has never answered accusations of over fifty deliberate misrepresentations or outright lies. And it never will.

Fourth, Faux continues to ignore both the energy of the collapse, and the energy of the burning office contents, as if they do not exist. Anyone with the slightest knowledge of BASIC PHYSICS knows that these must be the primary sources of energy in the rubble pile- and of course, Faux knows that too. It just doesn't want YOU to know it. So it waves its grubby fists and pretends all the energy just DISAPPEARED INTO NOWHERE. Don't be fooled. Remember conservation of energy, and ignore this idiot.
James Linquist
QUOTE
Don't be fooled.

Ok.
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Don't be fooled.

Ok.
Remember conservation of energy,

Ok.
QUOTE
and ignore this idiot.

I'll ignore you, instead. Foxx makes sense while you distort, insult, capitalize, distract, claim you're leaving but never do.
ditto
ditto
Schneibster
QUOTE (metamars+)
My program took absolutely no account of either stess/strain within floors, nor stress/strain within columns. It assumed that the floors were basically levitating in space, up until the moment of collision.


Well, let's examine this "levitating in space" assumption. What we KNOW is that the floors were supported at their inner edges from the core columns, and at their outer edges from the perimeter columns. We know that the trusses under the floors were bolted (top chord) or coupled with a viscous coupling (bottom chord) to the perimeter columns and the core columns (were the bottom floor truss chords bolted to the core? Doesn't matter, really- remove one end and the other is insufficient to support the floor slab). We know that the diagonal trusses held the two chords apart, and gave them dimensional stability- but we also know that those diagonal trusses were the smallest, weakest, and thinnest pieces of structural steel in the building. We know that for either the bottom or top chords of the floor trusses to bend, those diagonal trusses had to buckle or break (i.e., fail in compression or tension).

And finally, we know that when steel is heated, it expands- and across the length of these floor trusses, that expansion is enough to place them under a significant compression load. Furthermore, the expansion of the truss rods that connect the top and bottom chords encourages those chords to bend- which is precisely what the compression load does as well. So we see that as the temperature becomes greater and greater, the compression loads become greater and greater, and the strength to resist those loads becomes smaller and smaller.

And what are the floor slabs doing when the trusses fail? That's right- you guessed it- there they are, levitating in space, because there's nothing holding them up BUT the trusses. No columns supporting them. Nothing in their way when they fall onto the next floor- remember, once those trusses fail, they AREN'T CONNECTED TO THE CORE OR PERIMETER COLUMNS ANY MORE. What you've got is a "square donut" of concrete slab- and it FITS INSIDE the perimeter columns, and the core columns FIT INSIDE it. And we can see how long that levitation lasts- NO TIME AT ALL.

Tell me, if you will, what stops the falling floor slab on its way to the next lower one? What needs to be crushed? What columns experience stress or strain?

And here's something else to consider: when we calculate the strength of the rods, and the trusses, and the heat of the fire, and the amount of insulation on the rods and trusses, we get EXACTLY THE SAME RESULTS AS WE SAW. These calculations postdict the SAME AMOUNT OF TIME THAT THE TOWERS TOOK TO FALL. Scientists have a name for a hypothesis that accurately postdicts such results. Do you know what that name is? Do you know what it implies?

QUOTE (metamars+)
All it proved was that it was useless as a method of analysis.  tongue.gif
Well, actually, what it proved was that two different programs, written in different languages, by different programmers, using different (but approximately equivalent) algorithms, got the SAME RESULT. Isn't that interesting. Considering that the results you got tend to UNDERMINE YOUR ARGUMENT, I'm hardly surprised that you would characterize them as useless; however, I think this is disingenuous at best, and I know that you have greater integrity than this. Why not admit what your VERY OWN calculations are telling you?

QUOTE (metamars+)
I don't recall, exactly, but I think I printed out KE at each step (=floor), but there was no attempt to consider losses due to pulverizing concrete or anything like that.
There's no reason to guess, no reason to have trouble recalling- the program is RIGHT THERE in BLACK AND WHITE. C'mon, meta, you're better than this.
brian
"It is already possible to know, beyond a reasonable doubt, one very important thing: the destruction of the World Trade Centre was an inside job, orchestrated by terrorists within our own government."

Will Scheibster catch on that we have caught on?

zoktoberfest -

Was the core:
obliterated or just sectionally voided?
severed or broken?
touching or attached?
fractured or plasticized?
deformed or bent?
tensioned or nominal?

One tower hit high, the other low
One plane hit the core, the other missed
One took more fuel, the other less.
One stood longer, the other shorter
One didn't pre-collapse, the other did

Dissimilar failure premises
similar failure conclusions
Schneibster
QUOTE (brian+)
"It is already possible to know, beyond a reasonable doubt, one very important thing: the destruction of the World Trade Centre was an inside job, orchestrated by terrorists within our own government."
Entirely possible. For sure, the fact that apparently NOT ONE of the planes was shot down, and the fact that there was an exercise that provided cover for the planes to prevent a gung-ho military pilot from shooting at them against or without orders, suggests that whether the administration ORCHESTRATED it or not, they FACILITATED it. You must have missed my posts on that subject. I suggest you do your research perhaps a little more carefully.

QUOTE (brian+)
Will Scheibster catch on that we have caught on?
Will brian ever stop making ASSumptions about what I am saying that are belied in black and white if s/he ever bothered to check?
gordon
Third, deliberate obfuscation of the two different areas covered by the Fire Safety Journal article and my program, as if they were the same thing, when they clearly are not and clearly do not account for the same phenomena, but are linked because one describes collapse initiation whereas the other describes collapse continuation,


You are correct when you say they are not the same thing.

Yours is wrong because it does not quantify, identify or even take regard of the strength of the towers, the strain energy of the steel or the failure mode of the load bearing structure. It gives us an estimate for the collapse of a tower model which, having no strength, would be unable to stand up in order for it to collapse.

Theirs is wrong because they are postulating that the truss rod would absorb all of the thermal expansion as strain energy, without relieving itself by a distortion of the horizontal beams. It is also wrong because they have claimed a compressive failure in a member carrying a tensile load.

And just a quick word for RC because I'm sure you will have to rush. You said,
The BOTTOM stringer MAY buckle as it is expanded lengthways

It will not. Expanded lengthways indicates a tensile load and buckling requires compressive loads. Forces are vectors, and I am sure that you will have come across that fact somewhere during your years of research. Since this is your first line of reasoning and it is wrong there is no point in pointing out your other errors.

Gordon.
brian
QUOTE (Schneibster+Jan 11 2006, 05:09 PM)
QUOTE (brian+)
"It is already possible to know, beyond a reasonable doubt, one very important thing: the destruction of the World Trade Centre was an inside job, orchestrated by terrorists within our own government."
Entirely possible. For sure, the fact that apparently NOT ONE of the planes was shot down, and the fact that there was an exercise that provided cover for the planes to prevent a gung-ho military pilot from shooting at them against or without orders, suggests that whether the administration ORCHESTRATED it or not, they FACILITATED it. You must have missed my posts on that subject. I suggest you do your research perhaps a little more carefully.

QUOTE (brian+)
Will Scheibster catch on that we have caught on?
Will brian ever stop making ASSumptions about what I am saying that are belied in black and white if s/he ever bothered to check?

brian has no need to make ASSumptions about what you are saying, brian like most others can plainly see what you are saying just does not make sense.

Although brian is glad to see your "limited hang out", brian regards that as the necessary desperate tactics which result from the scientific case against the official fairy tale.

No doubt Bush Cheney etc are expendable pawns and your crew would have us believe that their removal means the evil doers are no more,

Try that on some kindergarten thread, it wont wash here.

--"far more telling is the admission made by a US Official in part one of the Fox News report that hard evidence existed linking the events of 9/11 not to Arab Muslims, but to some of the more than 200 Israeli spies arrested both before and after 9/11, but that this evidence had been CLASSIFIED." -

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/spyring.html
Schneibster
QUOTE (gordon+)
Yours is wrong because it does not quantify, identify or even take regard of the strength of the towers, the strain energy of the steel or the failure mode of the load bearing structure.
Actually, it doesn't need to. All it needs to do is show (which it does) that the force of the falling section is beyond the ability of the structure to resist. Since the section will continue to gain momentum, as it gathers mass from more collapsing floors and velocity from gravity, once it is shown that it is enough to overcome the resistance of the first floor, it is clear that it is more than sufficient to overcome the resistance of any subsequent floor. To show that the program is near quantitatively correct, we run it through to the end and see whether the total time is sufficiently close to the observed time to allow us to conclude that it is a reasonably accurate representation of the actual events- and when we do that, we find that in fact, it IS that close. Furthermore, it postdicts other factors, such as the total energy being sufficient to result in molten steel under the rubble pile.

QUOTE (gordon+)
Theirs is wrong because they are postulating that the truss rod would absorb all of the thermal expansion as strain energy, without relieving itself by a distortion of the horizontal beams.  It is also wrong because they have claimed a compressive failure in a member carrying a tensile load.
With the diagonal trusses pushing the top and bottom chords away from each other, and the top and bottom chords pushing outward on the core and perimeter columns they have not the strength to move, in what direction do you expect the top and bottom chords to bend? Horizontally?

Furthermore, if the transverse (there are crossing struts that are all horizontal, "transverse" is the correct way to describe what you are talking about) expand in this same way, for the same reasons (expansion of both their diagonal rods and their horizontal chords), then what direction will THEY push the longitudinal struts' horizontal chords?

It looks like you've failed to understand the mechanics of the situation. Look at the diagram again and imagine all of the members you see under the floor expanding due to heat. Then think about what will happen when this expansion is added to the weight (force) that they are already resisting to keep the floor slab up. Then, finally, add in the fact that the strength of these members is being reduced by the very same heat that is expanding them.
gordon
why couldn't one suggest that the core would have relieved its stress gradually via a plasticized deformation.

Excellent point zoktoberfest. If the collapse was initiated by thermal influences only, then there would be gradual plastic deformation. Only a mechanism could cause a sudden loss of equilibrium. This is the reason that NIST and others have been desperately trying to come up with a believable collapse initiation device, and getting themselves in such a mess in the process.

Gordon
Schneibster
The fact that brian isn't bright enough to do his research properly, and has not even read the most important book on the subject, does little to bolster hir credibility. It's clearly apparent that you have no idea who Mike Ruppert is, much less have taken the time to read the results of his extensive research.

Karl Rove loves you for promoting his attempt to discredit the idea that the current administration had anything to do with 9/11. If you want to know what REALLY happened, carefully consider the fact that NOT ONE of the planes was shot down, and then ask what happened at NORAD. These are matters of public record, they require no speculation, no calculation, and no assumption. Karl Rove is doing his best to prevent you from thinking about them, with wacky demolition theories. Congratulations on penetrating the smokescreen. NOT.
brian
QUOTE (Schneibster+Jan 11 2006, 05:41 PM)
The fact that brian isn't bright enough to do his research properly, and has not even read the most important book on the subject, does little to bolster hir credibility. It's clearly apparent that you have no idea who Mike Ruppert is, much less have taken the time to read the results of his extensive research.

Karl Rove loves you for promoting his attempt to discredit the idea that the current administration had anything to do with 9/11. If you want to know what REALLY happened, carefully consider the fact that NOT ONE of the planes was shot down, and then ask what happened at NORAD. These are matters of public record, they require no speculation, no calculation, and no assumption. Karl Rove is doing his best to prevent you from thinking about them, with wacky demolition theories. Congratulations on penetrating the smokescreen. NOT.

See what happens when Scheibster has to deal with the real world where esoteric obfucation wont wash.

brian defended Ruppert a few pages back. brian has a copy of "rubicon" brian posted Rupperts Commonwealth Club Cheney claim.

brian has no doubt whatsoever of Cheneys involvement but brian also knows that in the scheme of things Cheney is almost as much a patsy as Atta - both so very much expendable if needs must.
metamars
QUOTE (Schneibster+Jan 11 2006, 04:37 PM)


QUOTE (metamars+)
All it proved was that it was useless as a method of analysis.  tongue.gif
Well, actually, what it proved was that two different programs, written in different languages, by different programmers, using different (but approximately equivalent) algorithms, got the SAME RESULT. Isn't that interesting. Considering that the results you got tend to UNDERMINE YOUR ARGUMENT, I'm hardly surprised that you would characterize them as useless; however, I think this is disingenuous at best, and I know that you have greater integrity than this. Why not admit what your VERY OWN calculations are telling you?

My program proved nothing. If you would like to argue that it did, go right ahead, but please don't state your conclusion without your reasons. From this post (which I've just skimmed over), you are apparently going to make an argument that after floor truss connections snap, the floors are "levitating", sort of.

Your program was written in Perl, and I like Perl as much as I like assembler. Which is to say, not at all. I never read through it, frankly.


The key resistance to downward forces, though, are supplied by the columns. I've never confirmed that or calculated that, but from the constraint of the building being efficient, the logic is absolutely compelling. Why on earth would you build the lateral portions of the floors (basically, floors minus the columns) as strong as the columns, themselves? Answer: you wouldn't. By the time we get to lower floors, the difference in strength should be about 2 orders of magnitude. 20 floors from the top, we should be talking about a difference in strength of, well, 20x. *

So, to explain how a floor collapses, you have to explain how columns collapse. And not just with hand waiving arguments, but with calculations that represent elastic deformation -> inelastic deformation -> fracture REPEATED OVER AND OVER AGAIN - AND NOT EVERY 3.7 METERS, BUT AS OFTEN AS SUCH A PROCESS WOULD ACTUALLY HAVE OCCURRED. You also have to state not just a hand-waiving argument (even if wrapped up in computer code) why you chose the periodicity you did.

Did you think through these considerations and capture them in your program? If you did, I apologize for not paying more attention, and ask that you tell me (if you remember) the page(s) it was on.

In light of Gordon's calculations, I don't see how you could have done so, but if you did, I'd like to see your treatment and understand why you could get results so completely at odds with what Gordon calculated.

I often skim through things, to try and get the gist of them. If I think they lack an essential consideration, I'm far less likely to read them carefully. Certainly, the simplistic "free fall" calculations seemed to miss this, so to this day I doubt I read more than 1 of them carefully. If I had had the impression that your program seriously looked at the energy necessary to "squish" columns, I would have paid more attention. However, I may have simply missed it, so please don't be offended.


* Actually, this is somewhat naive since the steel frame must also resist lateral forces, like strong winds. However, my understanding is that this is principally provided by the strength of the exterior columns, plus some cross beams (not trusses) that IIRC, were there mostly to defeat earthquake displacements.

However, both of these are arguments for
1) columns being STRONGER towards the top than otherwise expected
2) calculations of force needed to collapse the "lateral portions" of floors (floors minus columns) are going to be off, in a way that, if you corrected for them, would make a FEMA-friendly collapse even more implausible.

1) would "naturally" be taken into account in a more careful analysis of the type we're talking about, because then we would look into the beam thickness dimensions used on a floor-by-floor basis, and that would be sufficient since we are ignoring 'lateralness'. However, 2) alone could well screw up your calculation significantly. I vaguely recall a guy telling me that these cross beams were more to the bottom part of the towers, or only in the bottom part, so maybe the errors wouldn't be too bad. (The owner of a local diner has a brother who did engineering work on the towers. This is my source for the cross beam stuff.)
gordon
Actually, it doesn't need to. All it needs to do is show (which it does) that the force of the falling section is beyond the ability of the structure to resist.

In order to calculate collaspe times, you need to calculate velocities.
In order to calculate velocities you need to calculate accelerations and decelerations.
In order for the falling section to exert a force, that is any force large or small, it must undergo a deceleration.
The force must be exerted with a finite time over a finite distance.
You have not taken these decelerations, forces, times and distances into account and therefore the upper section in your model falls in a time which takes no regard of these forces and decelerations and your model is thus fundamentally flawed if it is being used to estimate for failure collapse times. It will be useful for estimating a collapse time for a tower which has had all of its strength suddenly and instantaneously removed, similar to say a controlled demolition.



With the diagonal trusses pushing the top and bottom chords away from each other, and the top and bottom chords pushing outward on the core and perimeter columns they have not the strength to move, in what direction do you expect the top and bottom chords to bend?

At last we have agreement that the top and bottom chords would be pushing outwards on the perimeter columns, and thus agreement that the NIST collapse initiation device, which utilises an inward pulling force on the perimeter columns, is fundamentally flawed.
You have also answered your own question and again we agree,
Q What direction do you expect the top and bottom chords to bend?
A pushing the top and bottom chords away from each other,

and the top and bottom chords pushing outward on the core and perimeter columns they have not the strength to move,

Are you saying that the core and perimeter columns would not deflect while the floors were expanding to failure? So does that mean that you agree that the inward deflection of the perimeter columns postulated by NIST, could not happen due to thermal effects only. Or are you saying that they could not deflect outwards but did deflect inwards?

Gordon
Edited to add last sentence of my first para.
galdur
Foxx is great.

Factual, knowledgeable, insists on sticking
to basics. biggrin.gif

So it's understandable that the shills attack
him with a vengeance. biggrin.gif
Schneibster
Then, brian, what on Earth are you defending demolition claims for? It has to be obvious that if there is plausible evidence to contradict them (and there is), then promoting them allows the administration to use this plausible evidence to deny ALL claims that they were complicit in 9/11. And this strategy is completely in line with the SOP that has been developed since the impeachment of Nixon. It's called "framing the debate." I have links you might find interesting, regarding this strategy, but a physics board is not the place for them. Seek me in an appropriate venue and I'll happily supply them (unless of course you discover that I already have, long ago, to others).

My point is and always has been that the use of plausibly deniable claims to discredit claims that are NOT plausibly deniable is a common tactic of the right wing, with a history that goes back far beyond the twentieth century. It's a TRAP. And you're falling right into it.
newton
once again, your schneister, one floor pan does not have the mass of the entire top portion of the tower., and the floors were not in one continuos piece, but rather 18 X 24(25, going from memory here) ft.

they were lightweight trusses poured with lightweight concrete.

when they becoming detached(a few admittedly would, and observably did), only the lateral force reisitance would be signifigantly compromised. the towers could have stood without any floor trusses, as long as there was never any wind.

the staggered nature of the spandrels also compromises the idea that one floor can 'collapse' to the next. you would need three stories of pereimeter beams to give out, and nist knows how many stories per core section, as 'floors'(the perimeter collumns that one story above and below a someway? compromised single 'floor') would be able to redistribute the load.
the tower was built as a lattice, and not a stack of one-story boxes, as is implied by pancake chefs.

perhaps, israeli art students could interest us in some paintings that would clear things up.

anyways, kudos to you for noticing 'something' is amiss in the corridors of power.

why are mike ruppert and alex jones fighting? which one's the shill, or are they both gatekeepers? HAHA! curiouser and curiouser.

gotta go fix a flat tire, before my car undergoes global collapse.
yesitdid
QUOTE (Schneibster+Jan 11 2006, 05:09 PM)
QUOTE (brian+)
"It is already possible to know, beyond a reasonable doubt, one very important thing: the destruction of the World Trade Centre was an inside job, orchestrated by terrorists within our own government."
Entirely possible. For sure, the fact that apparently NOT ONE of the planes was shot down, and the fact that there was an exercise that provided cover for the planes to prevent a gung-ho military pilot from shooting at them against or without orders, suggests that whether the administration ORCHESTRATED it or not, they FACILITATED it. You must have missed my posts on that subject. I suggest you do your research perhaps a little more carefully.

QUOTE (brian+)
Will Scheibster catch on that we have caught on?
Will brian ever stop making ASSumptions about what I am saying that are belied in black and white if s/he ever bothered to check?

I have stated many times that I might actually see a LIHOP facillitation of the attacks but that all of the theories of a MIHOP causation of these attacks are ridiculous.

I do not believe that anyone expected the towers to collapse as they did, not the hijackers nor any LIHOP planners. With 4 planes in the air and targeting US citizens and monuments to success and power, speculating that someone decided that the towers must come all the way down is just plain stupid.

The rabid way that MIHOP theorists go at this simply illustrates they operate froma politically motivated, dogmatic hate of the administration and work backwards from preconceived conclusions.
brian
QUOTE (Schneibster+Jan 11 2006, 06:22 PM)
Then, brian, what on Earth are you defending demolition claims for? It has to be obvious that if there is plausible evidence to contradict them (and there is), then promoting them allows the administration to use this plausible evidence to deny ALL claims that they were complicit in 9/11. And this strategy is completely in line with the SOP that has been developed since the impeachment of Nixon. It's called "framing the debate." I have links you might find interesting, regarding this strategy, but a physics board is not the place for them. Seek me in an appropriate venue and I'll happily supply them (unless of course you discover that I already have, long ago, to others).

My point is and always has been that the use of plausibly deniable claims to discredit claims that are NOT plausibly deniable is a common tactic of the right wing, with a history that goes back far beyond the twentieth century. It's a TRAP. And you're falling right into it.

The logic displayed here makes me wonder how in the name of .... can Shneibster manage to hold the attention of the likes of metamars or gordon.

Talk about "framing the debate."

Good to see he is willing to throw Bush Cheney etc to the dogs on the available CIRCUMSTANTIAL evidence yet will do handstands to deny the scientific evidence. Scientific eveidence that would have been available much sooner had the crime scene not been criminally cleared of the evidence

"It's a TRAP. And you're falling right into it."

You wish.

steve1957
dread.

It almost sounds like you don't believe in the governmental fairy tale and understand the OBVIOUSNESS of the lies that are told not only by the official report, but also the media, and all the countless supporters of the lies.

One of the things that should be obvious by now is the general PATTERN of behavior, that is ever present regarding this issue, IE; some people seem to have a desire for the truth, while others CLING to lies and fairy tales.

So in analyzing the human behavioral aspect we have to look at motive. They say follow the money trail, see who benefits from the crime, etc. etc.
user posted image
But we can also broaden the scope an say, "Look at the motive". Another words, for the few people on this board and other passer-bys who have an interest in this subject and a DESIRE to "Get to the bottom of this" it should be understood that there are UNDERLYING MOTIVES, not only for the perpetrators of the crime, IE; the military industrial complex, various groups of greedy power hungry individuals, etc. but also the motives of it's supporters.

user posted image.

Many people have a natural, inbred, home grown desire to SOLVE THE MYSTERY. Some of us were raised on "Sherlock Homes", "Perry Mason", "The untouchables", "77 Sunset Strip", "The Fugitive", and later on "The Rockford files", "Matlock", "Murder she wrote", "Unsolved Mysteries", "City Confidential", "FBI's most wanted", and one of my favorites, "Law & Order" etc. etc.

user posted image

Many of us Americans love a good mystery novel and may have a natural desire to solve the mystery, find the bad guys, lock em up, and let justice prevail, so we can ride off in the sunset with a good feeling in our souls.

Some times the show would say "Continued", and we we're left sitting on the edge of our seat for a whole week, waiting for the finale, or back in 1977, in the case of "Who shot JR" we had to wait a whole summer to find out "WHO DONE IT, WHO SHOT J.R."

So I think it's RIDICULOUS to assume that nobody cares about solving this mystery, I think a lot of people are still hanging on the edge of their seats to see how this all plays out, some hoping that truth and justice prevails, while others want the criminal regimes to continue in their conquests to RULE THE WORLD.

Remember the 1964 to 1968 TV series "The Fugitive"? It took us 4 long years for the truth to manifest to the police, and the one armed bandit finally caught, and Richard Kimball, EXONERATED. And like the series, WE KNOW who really did 9/11, even though they blame Saddam, we know who did it.

Even if not the majority, I'm pretty sure that millions of people in America and around the world know for certain that the government is to blame. When I say Bush is guilty, THAT IS CORRECT, because even though little bush is just a dumb actor, puppet on a string, only following orders and reading prepared scripts, even though he is like "howdy Doodee, he's still "Commander n' Chief".
user posted image

Call little bush only a worthless front man, the idiot son of an A##hole, which the bad guys dangled on a string while they did their dirty deeds, but everyone needs to be accountable for the part, especially one who takes an oath "To serve, protect and defend" So even though little bush is nothing more than a front man, or boy, and a figure head, he accepted his role and does represent the real culprits behind the crime.

But back to the American public, "We the people", who according to the Constitution are the owners of this great land, as we stole it fair and square from the Indians, (and of course many others around the world, who have a major vested interest in the outcome of this story) we are the audience, watching this murder mystery, crime show unfold, and it's my belief that many people do indeed want this episode to come to a close with a HAPPY ENDING. It's our nature to want the bad guys apprehended so that justice prevails, unless of course your rooting for the evil.

Like world war 2, it was nasty, hateful, murderous, barbaric and at times it may have looked as if the evil empires, (the other AXIS OF EVIL) were going to prevail. Hitler, Japan and Italy seemed unstoppable for a while and had a great edge, but after about 60 million deaths and a lot of pain and sufferings, the bad guys were caught and justice prevailed. Yeah, you can say not perfectly, and a lot of bad guys got away and even the good guys did a lot of nasty things that went way overboard, such as dropping the 2 atomic bombs.

User posted image

Yeah, in life many bad guys get mixed in with good guys so you get dual results. We stopped Hitler and let the Jews that survived go free, along with countless other oppressed people, and we stopped the Japanese military who not only bombed Pearl Harbor, but also used biochemicals and brutal murderous torture on the Chinese people, and I don't need to elaborate on some of the things Italy did, but the point being, the bad guys were stopped and some justice prevailed, at least partially.

So when we look at 9/11, (for those of us, who are honest enough to admit the US government did this awful crime) we probably have multiple feelings about how we are going to deal with it.

Our natural home bred desire (for some of us) is to solve the mystery, catch the bad guys and let justice prevail, BUT... this is a tough one. It's not like catching a bad gang, or even a bad army, the bad guys in this group include most if not all the US government, and many governments around the world.

How in the heck are you going to arrest all the senators, all the white house, all the Supreme Court, all the media, the schools, the churches, etc. etc. and all the countless supporters who aid and abet in covering up this crime????

user posted image

We can stick our heads in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist, or we can do like metemars and spend the rest of our lives looking under a microscope at all the molecules involved in the attack. Don't get me wrong. I think there's a time and place for people like metemars, who want to analyze the data to investigate the physical evidence, however there comes a point when you've got to move on and go with the evidence you have.

Before world war 2, people analyzed what the AXIS was doing, and we could have spent the next 50 years analyzing the analysts, and still never have enough. Maybe Roosevelt was aware of this and so he knowingly let the Japanese bomb pearl Harbor.
user posted image

Yes, there is no doubt our president, Franklyn not only ENABLED, but probably helped a little so as to INSURE the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, he may have felt like we needed an inoculation to build up our defenses, getting a shot in arm, woke us up and got the nation motivated enough to turn on the war machine, cut through all the resistance and get this nation moving. Not that I'm justifying it, but I understand. In fact, our neo/con criminals used this very technique on 9/11 to invoke a similar response, however the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor in 41, whereas this time our own government did it on 9/11.

So what can we do, when the enemy is all around us and has integrated himself so deep, that not only do they support the crime, but we ourselves, (knowingly and/or unknowingly have also supported it as well. When I first saw the attack, I too thought a foreign invader did the crime, until the facts came out.

I knew it was control demolition from the start, any idiot who has seen a building collapse from C.D. knows the towers were imploded, but I didn't know for sure who planted the bombs until the government practically confessed.

So what can we say? What can we do when the enemy is within us? Remember the Civil War? Brother against brother. A family would get together at the dinner table, loving brothers and sisters on one day, and a month or two later, the same brothers were killing each other in the name of their cause.

user posted image

And so it is, here we are in the midst of another Civil War. I know with all my mind and heart the government did 9/11, yet my little brother and many of my friends and business associates are convinced the magician in the cave did it, so while I still love and care for these people as deceived as they are, I also know they are wrong and are supporting the criminals. So what can we do?

Should we band together and pool all our money into a fund, so that people like metemars can spend it on PhD's to analyze reports of analysts, who analyze other analysts for the next 50 years, or should we riot in the streets with protest signs. Or like myself, make websites that display some of the conclusive proof, via streaming media video's and other documentation? Should we write our congressmen and tell them to arrest themselves?

Thank God, I'm not God and don't have all the answers, but I do understand that we should "Accept the things we cannot change, and change the things we can"

We can start by being honest within ourselves and then speak honestly, as much as we can to our neighbors, and if in fact we are honest about this murder mystery, then we can realize that we are much like an audience in a play watching a show about 9/11. Or even like watching a television show where our opinion may have little effect.

While we are watching this TV show, we can yell at the boob tube when the actors don't do what we want. But some of us know how vain it is to yell at a re-run, when THEY CAN'T HEAR US.
user posted image
You can scream as loud as you want to Andy Griffin, when watching "Matlock" to look over here, or look over there. You can watch a football game and yell at your team to "Go Long" or "Do a hail Mary pass", but they can't hear you. You're only screaming at a television set. In fact you might have more luck screaming at your television set then trying to converse with Arthur and some of the other fairy tale supporters on this board "They can't hear you".

Yes, I'm as guilty as the next guy for trying to converse with the blind nitwits, who cannot hear, or refuse to listen, so I confess I make the same mistakes as everyone else.

So while knowing the facts about 9/11 is important, the next issue is what to do about it? Giving all your money to various groups who say, "We're going to make a difference" "We're going to go to Washington and demand our senators investigate" or pool our money to analyze the analysts" It may be just be another waste of money.

I think there are many things we can do as individuals to help make this a better world, but we need to start by being honest with ourselves and stop denying reality. The best instructions in a book will be found in the bible, but even more important than that we must accept His love.

http://www.iwilltryit.com/
Schneibster
QUOTE (metamars+)
My program proved nothing. If you would like to argue that it did, go right ahead, but please don't state your conclusion without your reasons.
I stated them. Your "skimming" appears to have missed it.

QUOTE (metamars+)
Your program was written in Perl, and I like Perl as much as I like assembler. Which is to say, not at all. I never read through it, frankly.
Gee how topical- I suppose you never read through YOUR program, either.

QUOTE (metamars+)
The key resistance to downward forces, though, are supplied by the columns.
Oh, really? Well, that's certainly interesting- I don't suppose the CONNECTIONS between the columns and the floors had anything to do with it, is that what you're saying? So the chain is stronger than the weakest link?

QUOTE (metamars+)
So, to explain how a floor collapses, you have to explain how columns collapse.
And of course, the fact that if the links between the floors and the columns are severed makes no difference at all, right?

QUOTE (metamars+)
You also have to state not just a hand-waiving argument (even if wrapped up in computer code) why you chose the periodicity you did.
You mean like the acceleration of gravity, for example? Or perhaps the conservation of momentum?

QUOTE (metamars+)
I often skim through things, to try and get the gist of them. If I think they lack an essential consideration, I'm far less likely to read them carefully.  Certainly, the simplistic  "free fall" calculations seemed to miss this, so to this day I doubt I read more than 1 of them carefully. If I had had the impression that your program seriously looked at the energy necessary to "squish" columns, I would have paid more attention. However, I may have simply missed it, so please don't be offended.
OK, I'm not. But you appear to have forgotten some pretty important points. Start here.
Schneibster
So, brian, it appears you prefer fake evidence to circumstantial. Neato. How progressive of you.
steve1957
Schneibster,

Our government and military industrial complex is highly skilled at deception. Some of the more honest people know that deception is a tool that can sometimes be used to help the good guys win, but never the less, our government happens to be MASTERS of deception.

Remember D-Day, on June 6, 1944. We, our government spent over a year and millions in planning ways to deceive the Nazi's so we could land on the beach with fewer casualties.

Deception is used all the time, not only by governments, but by criminals as well.

Have you ever heard the term, "He was set up"?

One of the most effective weapons in war is to deceive the enemy, trick people, so you can get an advantage and win.

But you fairy tale believers act as if it's far fetched to think that our government is capable of deception, when the reality of the situation is our government is extremely skilled at the fine art of deceiving not only armies, but whole nations as well.

Ever heard of television advertising? Companies spend billions on figuring out ways to make people believe their product is great, (even if it's not).

Ever heard of court cases, where defense lawyers spend tons of money in devising ways to trick the jury into believing their client is Innocent, even when they know he's guilty.

You act as if our government is incapable of deception, when the truth is they may be the most skilled in all the world.

To imply that our government cannot lie, and cannot deceive, and that only wacko conspiracy theorists believe that is actually the opposite.

Ever heard of the CIA? Ever heard of cops who try to apprehend a bad guy, who's holding people hostage, and so they try to trick the guy into surrendering or giving them an edge so as to enable them to catch him safely.

Deception is an effective tool, like a weapon, and depending on the circumstances deception may be used to bring about a positive result, but to think our government is incapable of deception is about as ignorant as the magician in a cave fairy tale.

Our government has the means, the know how, the experience, the tools, resources, man power and the cooperation from the media, etc. etc. to aid and assist in their deception.

And if it so happens that the people who aid in the deception were likewise tricked into thinking the government is doing the right thing, then many of these groups may willingly pour on the deception, thinking it's for a good cause.

So, while it's true there's a web of deception, a mess of confusion going around, the fact of the matter is that our government happens to be masters of deception.

Now look at the media. Do they have skills in deception? Naaaaaa. Everything the media says is always true. Riiiiiiight. We can always believe everything we see on television because they too are incapable of deception, it's only the fruitcake wacko conspiracy theory nuts that think our government and media can lie and deceive.

Let's get real here, and start being honest with ourselves and deal with reality. How can anyone conduct a legitimate investigation of the facts if they start with the assumption that our government is incapable of mass deception?
cosmo
Did you know that the WTC North Tower suffered a fire on the 11th floor on February 13, 1975?

"This 110-story steel-framed office building suffered a fire on the 11th floor on February 13, 1975. The loss was estimated at over $2,000,000. The building is one of a pair of towers, 412 m in height. The fire started at approximately 11:45 P.M. in a furnished office on the 11th floor and spread through the corridors toward the main open office area. A porter saw flames under the door and sounded the alarm. It was later that the smoke detector in the air-conditioning plenum on the 11th floor was activated. The delay was probably because the air-conditioning system was turned off at night. The building engineers placed the ventilation system in the purge mode, to blow fresh air into the core area and to draw air from all the offices on the 11th floor so as to prevent further smoke spread. The fire department on arrival found a very intense fire. It was not immediately known that the fire was spreading vertically from floor to floor through openings in the floor slab. These 300-mm x 450-mm (12-in. x 18-in.) openings in the slab provided access for telephone cables. Subsidiary fires on the 9th to the 19th floors were discovered and readily extinguished. The only occupants of the building at the time of fire were cleaning and service personnel. They were evacuated without any fatalities. However, there were 125 firemen involved in fighting this fire and 28 sustained injuries from the intense heat and smoke. The cause of the fire is unknown.
.....
The fire spread throughout about half of the offices of the floor and ignited the insulation of telephone cables in a cable shaft that runs vertically between floors. Commissioner O'Hagan said that the absence of fire-stopper material in gaps around the telephone cables had allowed the blaze to spread to other floors within the cable shaft. Inside the shaft, it spread down to the 9th floor and up to the 16th floor, but the blaze did not escape from the shaft out into room or hallways on the other floors.
.....
Flames could be seen pouring out of 11th floor windows on the east side of the building.

"It was like fighting a blow torch" according to Captain Harold Kull of Engine Co. 6,..."

(as reported by NYT)

Although there were no direct casualties, 28 of the 150 firemen called to the scene suffered minor injuries from the intense heat and smoke.

The 1975 fire was reported to have lasted about 3 hours and was so intense it caused 11th floor east side windows to break, indicating temperatures reached 700 C or more.

Yet the North Tower suffered no structural damage, and the lateral truss framework did not require replacement.

Moreover, the telephone cable shaft points of entry were identified and modified so as to greatly reduce the risk of future fires spreading from floor to floor.

metamars
QUOTE
QUOTE (metamars)
The key resistance to downward forces, though, are supplied by the columns.
Oh, really? Well, that's certainly interesting- I don't suppose the CONNECTIONS between the columns and the floors had anything to do with it, is that what you're saying? So the chain is stronger than the weakest link?


I believe that the net net of connections and cross bracing (e.g., the "belt" that ran around the exterior columns) made the structure more resistant to collapse, not otherwise. I cannot prove this, however. I vaguely recall JayUtah at apollohoax.net as saying something about a column being "out of plumb" would act very differently than one that was not "out of plumb". Perhaps he could shed light on this, short of a full blown finite-element analysis.

The "weakest link in the chain" argument doesn't seem relevant, for two reasons.
1) You have to break all the "chains", including the strongest ones, viz., columns
2) If you break the weakest "chain" (understood as trusses) , it will cease exerting force on the strong "chains" (columns) Of course, one expects the weakest links to break first, both in chains and also in skyscrapers.

It would aid the discussion if you could quantitatively attack the problem of buckling of non-plumb columns, and then relate that to realistic quantitative scenarios of forces (due to trusses or other laterally connecting pieces of steel) which could force columns out of plumb.

Frankly, I expect that you will have to both at least consult blueprint type info and also talk to an engineer or two to accomplish this. I would not assume this is a trivial calculation.
steve1957
QUOTE
Cosmo,

Did you know that the WTC North Tower suffered a fire on the 11th floor on February 13, 1975?


Interesting! I have no doubt that intense fires, even in steel framed sky scrapers can do a lot of serious damage, and destroy life. It's my firm belief, maybe not factual evidence, but FIRM BELIEF that fires are bad for buildings and the people in them, and I am 100% against fires in steel frame buildings.

However, as you probably already guessed, in spite of whatever damage was caused by the planes crashing into the towers and the damage done by the fires, it was in fact some type of explosives that brought the towers down.

It seems to me that if little bush, IE; the responsible parties for the attack, would have implemented some other types of negative effects, THEY MAY HAVE GOTTEN AWAY WITH IT.

But the way the buildings collapsed was a dead give away. I used to ask myself, how in the heck can these guys be so confident that they can get away with it, when it was so obvious, but obviously they weren't deterred.

Interesting post about Robert Tilton. In fact it kind of makes sense. So many people are so blind as to follow nitwits like Tilton, and many others who rob them blind, right in front of their very eyes, that I guess their prime for the picking, prepared to be deceived.
steve1957
One more thing about the bible.

You don't have to accept, understand, grasp or comprehend the bible to know and love God, any more than you need a PhD. in criminology to know that shooting someone in the face with a .45 caliber will probably kill him.

The spirit of God, that manifests itself in love and truth may flow through different people in different ways. Some through wisdom and understanding and comprehension of the scriptures, and others through just plain old simple love and truth and good will toward your fellow human being.

But when people are biblically illiterate it seems to me that would be better off saying, they just don't know, or they just don't understand, or they just can't grasp the things written in it. But to say the bible is a myth or a lie, without even the slightest bit of knowledge in it is similar to the people who support the Bush fairy tale, and deny the fact that explosives were used.

If people just can't handle or relate to the scriptures, fine, that's between you and God, and maybe the spirit moves through you in other ways, however the principals of not murdering, stealing and lying to set up an innocent person should be a universal law that's good for the literate and biblically illiterate as well.
Schneibster
QUOTE (newton+)
one floor pan does not have the mass of the entire top portion of the tower., and the floors were not in one continuos piece, but rather 18 X 24(25, going from memory here) ft.

Hey! You actually are starting to get this stuff. You're correct. My initial assumption WAS that the weight of the entire tower above the point of collapse fell down.

OK, let's try it with just the weight of ONE FLOOR.

We have 4285500kg. It falls 3.8m under an acceleration of 9.80665m/s^2. What is the force at impact?

We have the velocity:
v(final) = √(v(initial)^2 + 2ad)
v(initial) is zero.
a is 9.8m/s^2.
d is 3.8m.
Thus,
v(final) = √(0 + (2(9.80665m/s^2 x 3.8m)) = 6.10453m/s
So the momentum is
4285500kg x 6.10453m/s = 26160957.516kg*m/s
If the floor takes a tenth of a second to stop, the force is
261609575.16N
So what is the static force of a floor? Well, that's just
F = ma = 4285500kg x 9.80665m/s^2 = 41997900N
So the force of a single floor falling onto the next one down is
261609575.16N/41997900N = 6.23 times the force of the floor alone. That means that the dynamic force is SIX TIMES the static force. And this assumes that the falling floor takes all of a tenth of a second to fully distribute its impact. If it takes a hundredth of a second, we have to multiply by another factor of ten- which means that the dynamic force is SIXTY times the static force.

How much could a floor hold? Well, apparently the design was 50lbs/sqft, standard for an office building. So what is that? Supposing that the floor was 40,000sqft (a very conservative estimate- that's the MAXIMUM, the average is more like 30,000sqft), we get a maximum designed static load of 2,000,000lbs. This is about 9 million newtons (8 896 443.2N to be precise). Considering we're talking about forces in excess of 200 million newtons, it looks like we're well beyond the carrying capacity of the floor.

Now, with two floors taken out, we have exposed a three-story high length of both perimeter and core columns, and we have crap flying everywhere, and those perimeter columns are no longer braced (by the floors) against collapse in compression- nor are the core columns. IOW, if any of the material from these floors presses OUTWARD on the perimeter columns, they will fail- or if it presses INWARD on the core columns, they will fail too. They aren't designed to take these pressures without the floors' bracing. The Vierendeel truss design of the perimeter columns braces them against lateral forces ACROSS the building, not lateral forces into or out of it. The spandrels spread any such inward or outward forces across the face- assuming they do not buckle.

Does that make it a little clearer?

I'll cease being nasty for the time being, since you appear to be actually thinking about the problem, as opposed to knee-jerk insulting me.
RealityCheck
QUOTE (Foxx+Jan 11 2006, 02:45 PM)
QUOTE
Originally posted by RC
Hi Foxx!

A Tasmanian Firm. And you being in the 'composite materials' contruction game would be remiss if you did NOT know of them, heh?


Idiot !!!

Incat builds ALUMINUM craft - Absolutely nothing to do with Reinforced Composites.


Hi Foxx!

I mentioned your profession because there is a big push in the Plane/Boat Industries worldwide towards 'composites' in almost everything that does not require the particular attributes of metals/metal-alloys (Airbus is the most recent example). Because of this 'push', and because of your profession and your 'craft models' that you've posted here, I ASSUMED that you would be most likely to keep abreast of who is doing what and where...including our INCAT Firm. That's all. Sorry if I implied anything else, mate. Ciao.

RC.
.
steve1957
Schneibster,

After reading through your posts, what else can I say, but that scripture is being fulfilled, even on this message board...

2Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"
galdur
"""Of the more than 170 areas examined on 16 perimeter column panels, only three columns had evidence that the steel reached temperatures above 250ºC… Only two core column specimens had sufficient paint remaining to make such an analysis, and their temperatures did not reach 250 ºC. ... Using metallographic analysis, NIST determined that there was no evidence that any of the samples had reached temperatures above 600 ºC.""" (NIST, 2005, pp. 176-177)
cosmo
Steve, the religious nonsense that you keep spewing belongs on a different message board.

Robert Tilton called he wants his Bible back.
RealityCheck
QUOTE (gordon+Jan 11 2006, 05:12 PM)
Third, deliberate obfuscation of the two different areas covered by the Fire Safety Journal article and my program, as if they were the same thing, when they clearly are not and clearly do not account for the same phenomena, but are linked because one describes collapse initiation whereas the other describes collapse continuation,


You are correct when you say they are not the same thing.

Yours is wrong because it does not quantify, identify or even take regard of the strength of the towers, the strain energy of the steel or the failure mode of the load bearing structure.  It gives us an estimate for the collapse of a tower model which, having no strength, would be unable to stand up in order for it to collapse.

Theirs is wrong because they are postulating that the truss rod would absorb all of the thermal expansion as strain energy, without relieving itself by a distortion of the horizontal beams.  It is also wrong because they have claimed a compressive failure in a member carrying a tensile load.

And just a quick word for RC because I'm sure you will have to rush.   You said,
The BOTTOM stringer MAY buckle as it is expanded lengthways

It will not.  Expanded lengthways indicates a tensile load and buckling requires compressive loads.  Forces are vectors, and I am sure that you will have come across that fact somewhere during your years of research.   Since this is your first line of reasoning and it is wrong there is no point in pointing out your other errors.

Gordon.


Hi gordon.

You're right, gotta hurry! hehehe. Just teasing ya, mate!

You seem to be missing the point that the TENSION was in the designed FUNCTION and within the DESIGNED LENGTH of the lower stringers in situ. Whereas COMPRESSION only became a factor when THAT LENGTH was increased by LINEAR EXPANSION DUE TO FIRE, so that the LOWER stringers contacted the WALLS with expansion-forces that could ONLY be relieved two ways: EITHER the lower stringers deformed or the wall columns deformed. Now YOU KNOW the relative strengths of the vertical wall columns and the horizontal lower stringers: so which do you think would 'buckle'; especially given that the stringers would have been 'softened' by the fire on the floor below. And once the LENGTH/FORM of the lower stringers was compromised SO TOO was the 'redirecting-tension' integrity of the original strut principle in the compromised structure that resulted. Here in Australia, the heat of the summer sun, the tracks often 'buckle' because they have nowhere to extend to except sideways!..so it's a similar process of deformation in the least resistant manner.

The above shows that you persist in thinking only 'serially' as to factors instead of thinking 'parallel' so as to consider OTHER CONCURRENT factors in play. Another example of your failure to think "parallel'/concurrent factors is that you miss the point that when the 'tensioning' integrity and down-force-re-directing function of the LOWER stringer of the strut is compromised, THERE IS NO LONGER ANYTHING KEEPING THE "UPPER" STRINGERS FROM 'BENDING' (which was the reason why the LOWER STRINGERS were there in the first place! Once these lower stringers lose function/form, the upper stringers would SAG like a hammock, and THEN the whole floor would be NOW PULLING INWARDS AT THE WALL CONNECTORS, whereas BEFORE, with the truss structure intact and rigid, they would have mainly been putting a SHEARING force STRAIGHT DOWN ALONG THE VERTICAL WALL FACE.

Consider all the above in your analysis before arriving at any more conclusions, mate. Ciao.

RC.
.
cosmo
Scheinstien, after failing to prove that 2 + 2 = 5, is now trying to show that 5 - 2 = 2. This should be good.
galdur
"""Both WTC 1 and WTC 2 were stable after the aircraft impact, standing for 102 min and 56 min, respectively. The global analyses with structural impact damage showed that both towers had considerable reserve capacity. This was confirmed by analysis of the post-impact vibration of WTC 2… where the damaged tower oscillated at a period nearly equal to the first mode period calculated for the undamaged structure. (NIST, 2005, p. 144; emphasis added.)

At any given location, the duration of [air, not steel] temperatures near 1,000C was about 15 min to 20 min. The rest of the time, the calculated [air] temperatures were near 500C or below.”""" (NIST, 2005, p. 127

galdur
"""NIST contracted with Underwriters Laboratories, Inc. to conduct tests to obtain information on the fire endurance of trusses like those in the WTC towers… All four test specimens sustained the maximum design load for approximately 2 hours without collapsing.” """(NIST, 2005, p. 140
galdur
CONSERVATION OF MOMENTUM.

Where is the delay that must be expected due to conservation of momentum – one of the foundational Laws of Physics? That is, as upper-falling floors strike lower floors – and intact steel support columns – the fall must be significantly impeded by the impacted mass. If the central support columns remained standing, then the effective resistive mass would be less, but this is not the case – somehow the enormous support columns failed/disintegrated along with the falling floor pans.


How do the upper floors fall so quickly, then, and still conserve momentum in the collapsing buildings? The contradiction is ignored by FEMA, NIST and 9-11 Commission reports where conservation of momentum and the fall times were not analyzed. The paradox is easily resolved by the explosive demolition hypothesis, whereby explosives quickly remove lower-floor material including steel support columns and allow near free-fall-speed collapses (Harris, 2000).


http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

steve1957
cosmo,

Come on now, you now I haven't posted one religious thing on this board. God is reality, not religion.

Try not to confuse reality with myth. If you want religion, go to Robert Tilton or one of the churches in this great land. But remember, their religion is nothing more than "Breaking Wind"

But if you want the truth about reality, "The kingdom of God is within you"
Schneibster's mom
Scheinbster, honey, it's time for you to come take your medicine.

Boys, please take it easy on my lil' Schneibling. He likes to play with numbers and pretend they make sense. I just don't have the heart to throw away his broken Knight Rider calculator. The doctors tell me may never be normal, but I pray everyday.
steve1957
Schneibster's mom,

Get em mommy
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