To add comments or start new threads please go to the full version of: Basic Physics
PhysForum Science, Physics and Technology Discussion Forums > General Sci-Tech Discussions > Other Sci-Tech Topics
Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148

galdur
Some points you shills really need to consider.

1. Steel conducts heat. The steel was an enormous heat sink.

2. The steel gets the thicker the nearer the ground.

3. The floor slab was steel-reinforced.

4. The official conspiracy theory is physically impossible.
Common Sense
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 05:24 PM)
QUOTE (Common Sense+Dec 30 2005, 05:21 PM)
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 05:14 PM)
Unlike you the designers knew that in aircraft crashes
most of the fuel burns up in an explosion. So they didn't
consider it significant. And it wasn´t. The notion that
they forgot about the fuel is ridiculous.


QUOTE
I said: They never took the impact removing the fire proofing into account or the fuel of a 707 burning on impact. I heard the architect say it himself. I believe the interview is on PBS.


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
I said: They never took the impact removing the fire proofing into account or the fuel of a 707 burning on impact. I heard the architect say it himself. I believe the interview is on PBS.


galdur said: So they designed the towers to withstand the impact
of a 707 but forgot the fuel?

This is simply ridiculous.


QUOTE
I said: It is impressive that the World Trade Center towers held up as long as they did after being attacked at full speed by Boeing 767 jets, because they were only designed to withstand a crash from the largest plane at the time: the smaller, slower Boeing 707. And according to Robertson, the 707's fuel load was not even considered at the time. Engineers hope that answering the question of exactly why these towers collapsed will help engineers make even safer skyscrapers in the future. ASCE will file its final report soon, and NIST has been asked to conduct a much broader investigation into the buildings' collapse.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/minu-trans.html



galdur's credibility in real time -> user posted image

user posted image

That's for talking down to me. wink.gif

You are an idiot sitting on a science board displaying
total lack of understanding of basic physics. What do
you expect for it? Respect?

You're pulling shait straight out of your arus and your telling me I don't belong on a science board! HAHAHA. I can prove what I'm saying. If I tell you the designer never took fuel into account it's because I can prove it. YOU on the other hand first said they first took the fuel into account then when I produce evidence your talking out of your butt hole you change that to "Oh yeah, they never took it into account because they knew it would burn up on impact. But unfortunately for you I have your lie in black and white.

You f**king moron. You obviously never saw the interview. Well I did. They never calculated the fuel AT ALL. Fantasy! You guys live in f**king fantasy!
galdur
QUOTE (Guest_yesitdid+Dec 30 2005, 05:30 PM)
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 05:25 PM)
QUOTE (Guest_yesitdid+Dec 30 2005, 05:21 PM)
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 04:59 PM)
Furthermore; steel conducts heat rather well
and each tower contained 200 thousand tons
of the stuff - a gigantic heat sink.

The notion that an office fire (the fuel had burned
up after 15 minutes, even FEMA is forced to admit
that) could weaken the steel and lead to a total
disintigration of these massive structures is simply
ludicrous. Frankly it strains belief that people would
sit on a science thread and present such nonsense.

Hmmm, makes one wonder why they bothered with all that pesky, expensive, yet apparently unneccessary fire insulation at all.

Skycraper design is massively redundant
as most people realize.

Hardly answers the question.

IF the steel was sufficient to transfer the heat from a fuel fire or an office fire to cooler regions and therefore keep the temp of the steel below that at which its strength would be compromised then WHY bother with the expense of installing spray on fire-proofing?

Since you clearly don't realize that skyscraper design
is massively redundant I'll have to reiterate that fact.

Futhermore no steel structures have collapsed due to
fire in the history of such structures. The three buildings
on sept. 11th constitute an impossible anomaly in this regard.
galdur
QUOTE (Common Sense+Dec 30 2005, 05:34 PM)
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 05:24 PM)
QUOTE (Common Sense+Dec 30 2005, 05:21 PM)
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 05:14 PM)
Unlike you the designers knew that in aircraft crashes
most of the fuel burns up in an explosion. So they didn't
consider it significant. And it wasn´t. The notion that
they forgot about the fuel is ridiculous.


QUOTE
I said: They never took the impact removing the fire proofing into account or the fuel of a 707 burning on impact. I heard the architect say it himself. I believe the interview is on PBS.


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
I said: They never took the impact removing the fire proofing into account or the fuel of a 707 burning on impact. I heard the architect say it himself. I believe the interview is on PBS.


galdur said: So they designed the towers to withstand the impact
of a 707 but forgot the fuel?

This is simply ridiculous.


QUOTE
I said: It is impressive that the World Trade Center towers held up as long as they did after being attacked at full speed by Boeing 767 jets, because they were only designed to withstand a crash from the largest plane at the time: the smaller, slower Boeing 707. And according to Robertson, the 707's fuel load was not even considered at the time. Engineers hope that answering the question of exactly why these towers collapsed will help engineers make even safer skyscrapers in the future. ASCE will file its final report soon, and NIST has been asked to conduct a much broader investigation into the buildings' collapse.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/minu-trans.html



galdur's credibility in real time -> user posted image

user posted image

That's for talking down to me. wink.gif

You are an idiot sitting on a science board displaying
total lack of understanding of basic physics. What do
you expect for it? Respect?

You're pulling shait straight out of your arus and your telling me I don't belong on a science board! HAHAHA. I can prove what I'm saying. If I tell you the designer never took fuel into account it's because I can prove it. YOU on the other hand first said they first took the fuel into account then when I produce evidence your talking out of your butt hole you change that to "Oh yeah, they never took it into account because they knew it would burn up on impact. But unfortunately for you I have your lie in black and white.

You f**king moron. You obviously never saw the interview. Well I did. They never calculated the fuel AT ALL. Fantasy! You guys live in f**king fantasy!

Don´t burst a vein. tongue.gif

Do you guys get paid for acting like idiots here?
galdur
It's probably difficult to explain to people who are
totally unfamiliar with what happens at aircraft
crashes but as soon as the fuel tanks rupture the
fuel starts evaporating. That is followed by a huge
fireball as most of the fuel explodes. So I can´t really
blame the designers for ignoring the fuel. They didn't
forget it was there, just didn´t consider it significant as
the structure was concerned. That certainly tells its tale.

Even FEMA admits that the fuel had fully burned up after
15 minutes. After that there's little for the fire. Gypsum
boards don´t really burn and there was no lumber storage
up there. In fact this was a very unfriendly environment
for fire. That goes without saying. People don´t really
design skyscrapers to encourage possible fires.
Common Sense
The best conductors of heat are metals. Further, some metals conduct heat better than others. This can be shown with the conductometer. The conductometer is five rods of equal length attached to a handle. At the free end of each rod is a small piece of wax holding up a small flag. The rods are each made of a different metal - steel (flag #1), brass (#2), aluminum (#3), stainless steel (#4), or copper (#5).

When the handle is heated, the heat is conducted along each of the rods. This heat will eventually melt the wax and make the flags fall. Because some metals conduct heat better then others, the flags will fall one by one, starting with the flag on the rod which best conducts heat (aluminum) and ending with the flag on the poorest-conducting rod (stainless steel). The poorest-conducting rod happens to be such a poor conductor that the aluminum rod melts before the flag falls off the stainless steel rod!


http://www.ap.stmarys.ca/demos/content/the...r(take2)_HR.wmv

http://www.ap.stmarys.ca/demos/content/the...nductivity.html

Note the second to the last flag to fall is STEEL!

More evidence galdur talks out of his a$$.
metamars
QUOTE
Gorgon, If the walls weren't pulled toward the center of the floor slabs what's this?

User posted image

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/Media_Public_Brie...40505_final.pdf

Start at page 36. You can SEE photographic evidence the building was pulled in. Not just one floor but across many.

It sure as hell isn't being pushed out.

I think your looking for a fly on an elephant with a microscope. Drop back and look at the total picture.



the NIST April 5, 2005 "Public Briefing" report claims "WTC 1 tilted to the south,; WTC 2 tilted to the east and south"

It's hard to imagine that happening without some bowing of columns. That doesn't mean that the bowing was primarily caused by pulling from floor trusses. As the columns were so much stronger than the floor trusses, one expects the effects of bowing due to forces being transmitted through the columns themselves to far exceed the forces transmitted through floor trusses.

I find Professor Steven Jones' comment on NIST floor pulling black magic worth repeating, not least for it's comedic value:

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Gorgon, If the walls weren't pulled toward the center of the floor slabs what's this?

User posted image

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/Media_Public_Brie...40505_final.pdf

Start at page 36. You can SEE photographic evidence the building was pulled in. Not just one floor but across many.

It sure as hell isn't being pushed out.

I think your looking for a fly on an elephant with a microscope. Drop back and look at the total picture.



the NIST April 5, 2005 "Public Briefing" report claims "WTC 1 tilted to the south,; WTC 2 tilted to the east and south"

It's hard to imagine that happening without some bowing of columns. That doesn't mean that the bowing was primarily caused by pulling from floor trusses. As the columns were so much stronger than the floor trusses, one expects the effects of bowing due to forces being transmitted through the columns themselves to far exceed the forces transmitted through floor trusses.

I find Professor Steven Jones' comment on NIST floor pulling black magic worth repeating, not least for it's comedic value:



http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

"The NIST report makes for interesting reading.  The less severe cases based on empirical data were discarded because they did not result in building collapse.  But ‘we must save the hypothesis,’ so more severe cases were tried and the simulations tweaked, as we read in the NIST report:

The more severe case (which became Case B for WTC 1 and Case D for WTC 2) was used for the global analysis of each tower. Complete sets of simulations were then performed for Cases B and D. To the extent that the simulations deviated from the photographic evidence or eyewitness reports [e.g., complete collapse occurred], the investigators adjusted the input, but only within the range of physical reality. Thus, for instance,…the pulling forces on the perimeter columns by the sagging floors were adjusted...  (NIST, 2005, p. 142; emphasis added.)

The primary role of the floors in the collapse of the towers was to provide inward pull forces that induced inward bowing of perimeter columns. (NIST, 2005, p. 180; emphasis added.)

How fun (perhaps) to tweak the model like that, until the building collapses -- until one gets the desired result. But the end result of such tweaked computer hypotheticals is not compelling, sorry gentlemen.  Notice that the “the pulling forces on the perimeter columns by the sagging floors were adjusted” (NIST, 2005, p. 142; emphasis added) to get the perimeter columns to yield sufficiently – one suspects these were “adjusted” by hand quite a bit -- even though the UK experts complained that “the core columns cannot pull the exterior [i.e., perimeter] columns in via the floor.”  (Lane and Lamont, 2005; "
galdur
QUOTE (Common Sense+Dec 30 2005, 05:48 PM)
The best conductors of heat are metals. Further, some metals conduct heat better than others. This can be shown with the conductometer. The conductometer is five rods of equal length attached to a handle. At the free end of each rod is a small piece of wax holding up a small flag. The rods are each made of a different metal - steel (flag #1), brass (#2), aluminum (#3), stainless steel (#4), or copper (#5).

When the handle is heated, the heat is conducted along each of the rods. This heat will eventually melt the wax and make the flags fall. Because some metals conduct heat better then others, the flags will fall one by one, starting with the flag on the rod which best conducts heat (aluminum) and ending with the flag on the poorest-conducting rod (stainless steel). The poorest-conducting rod happens to be such a poor conductor that the aluminum rod melts before the flag falls off the stainless steel rod!


http://www.ap.stmarys.ca/demos/content/the...r(take2)_HR.wmv

http://www.ap.stmarys.ca/demos/content/the...nductivity.html

Note the second to the last flag to fall is STEEL!

More evidence galdur talks out of his a$$.

Hydrocarbon fires burn at a temperature of 800-900C
TOPS and that is at PERFECT conditions. There is no
evidence that the WTC fires reached that.
Even NIST and FEMA admit this.

Heat does melt wax and that is certainly interesting but
doesn´t really have anything to do with the WTC.
Common Sense
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 05:40 PM)
It's probably difficult to explain to people who are
totally unfamiliar with what happens at aircraft
crashes but as soon as the fuel tanks rupture the
fuel starts evaporating. That is followed by a huge
fireball as most of the fuel explodes. So I can´t really
blame the designers for ignoring the fuel. They didn't
forget it was there, just didn´t consider it significant as
the structure was concerned. That certainly tells its tale.

Even FEMA admits that the fuel had fully burned up after
15 minutes. After that there's little for the fire. Gypsum
boards don´t really burn and there was no lumber storage
up there. In fact this was a very unfriendly environment
for fire. That goes without saying. People don´t really
design skyscrapers to encourage possible fires.

No lumber storage? What the f**k do you call 5 stories of office furniture and paper? It's at least a few trees worth. Oh that's right. The paper and office furniture was asbestos. I'd like to know the physics behind galdurs both feet fitting in his mouth.
brian
Simply ridiculous

3 buildings of a kind never in history to collapse due to fire do so in a matter of hours and we are asked to ignore the VAST amount of evidence that explosives were used and believe what amounts to nothing even approaching a credible explanation.

Simply ridiculous

We are supposed to ignore the incontravertible evidence that the upper portions of the WTC 1 & 2 were pulverised making the debate about gravitational forces academic.

Simply ridiculous

The supposed perpatrators of this atrocity conviently resided in Afghanistan which the US just happened to be logistically ready to invade and had forewarned other countries of this prior to September 11.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/oil.html

In the words of MSNBC

"President Bush was expected to sign detailed plans for a worldwide war against al-Qaida two days before Sept. 11 but did not have the chance before the terrorist attacks in New York and Washington, U.S. and foreign sources told NBC News."


July 21, 2001: US Official Threatens Possible Military Action Against Taliban by October if Pipeline Is Not Pursued

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context...m=a072101berlin

Just ignore the fact that the Afghan rulers offered to hand over Bin Laden if the US provided evidence of his involvement. How inconvienent and thoughtless of them.

There is hardly an aspect of the official conspiracy theory that is not SIMPLY RIDICULOUS




galdur
Sure CS, after the fuel had burned up after 15 minutes TOPS
(even FEMA and NIST are forced to admit this) it's a regular
office in a fire retardent environment. This has never resulted
in the collapse of steel structures much less their total
disintegration except for those three impossible anomalies
on Sept. 11th.

Firefighters reaching the 78th floor at the second tower reported
two isolated fires and wanted two lines to put them out. This
is simply documented and official.
galdur
On the 41st and 42nd floors and 75th and 76th, both towers housed heavy mechanical equipment. To accommodate the heavy loads, the floors were designed as structural steel frame slabs. So some floors had much more than trusses - clearly. These heavy duty slabs didn´t slow the collapse in the least and were simply shredded like other steel in the towers. So some floors had much more than trusses clearly.
Common Sense
"the investigators adjusted the input, but only within the range of physical reality."

This is what I like about peer review. It's honest and includes questions which might arise later. It's like evolution. You can have a lot of hypothesis on how evolution works and the first people to question them are people studying evolution but evolution itself is FACT. How exactly it works is the question.

The truth is the NIST never took the model out of the realm of reality. I suspect they are working with very little quality evidence.

What I see here is someone leaving the door open for a tweaking of the hypothesis as better evidence come in. Much like changing our evolutionary tree as new fossils are found.

Creationist also take Darwin's concerns about his own hypothesis out of context. It's just 9/11 conspiracy sites grabbing at straws.
galdur
Of course ---SINCE THE GOVERNMENT DESTROYED THE PHYSICAL EVIDENCE (STEEL) AS FAST AS IT COULD--- it doesn´t have any physical evidence to support ITS OWN conspiracy theory.

Evidently those who systematically destroy crime scene evidence do this because the evidence points to their own culpability or they are protecting other perpetrators of the crime. There is no way around this. There is cause and there is effect.
Common Sense
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 05:59 PM)
Sure CS, after the fuel had burned up after 15 minutes TOPS
(even FEMA and NIST are forced to admit this) it's a regular
office in a fire retardent environment. This has never resulted
in the collapse of steel structures much less their total
disintegration except for those three impossible anomalies
on Sept. 11th.

Firefighters reaching the 78th floor at the second tower reported
two isolated fires and wanted two lines to put them out. This
is simply documented and official.

You see what a moron you are? The two fires were on stairway A which was protected by large elevater equipment. That's the staircase a few people took to safety. There were two small fires IN THE STAIR CASE. Do I have to prove this to you aswell? You know I can. wink.gif
galdur
QUOTE (Common Sense+Dec 30 2005, 06:22 PM)
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 05:59 PM)
Sure CS, after the fuel had burned up after 15 minutes TOPS
(even FEMA and NIST are forced to admit this) it's a regular
office in a fire retardent environment. This has never resulted
in the collapse of steel structures much less their total
disintegration except for those three impossible anomalies
on Sept. 11th.

Firefighters reaching the 78th floor at the second tower reported
two isolated fires and wanted two lines to put them out. This
is simply documented and official.

You see what a moron you are? The two fires were on stairway A which was protected by large elevater equipment. That's the staircase a few people took to safety. There were two small fires IN THE STAIR CASE. Do I have to prove this to you aswell? You know I can. wink.gif

Sure, you were there and those firefighters weren´t. biggrin.gif

Guest
QUOTE (Common Sense+Dec 30 2005, 06:11 PM)
" It's like evolution. You can have a lot of hypothesis on how evolution works and the first people to question them are people studying evolution but evolution itself is FACT.


You are proof that evolution is not a fact.
Common Sense
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 06:16 PM)
Of course ---SINCE THE GOVERNMENT DESTROYED THE PHYSICAL EVIDENCE (STEEL) AS FAST AS IT COULD--- it doesn´t have any physical evidence to support ITS OWN conspiracy theory.

Evidently those who systematically destroy crime scene evidence do this because the evidence points to their own culpability or they are protecting other perpetrators of the crime. There is no way around this. There is cause and there is effect.

Of course not because you morons would say it was heated after the fact. You would be the first to KNOW the samples came from the 2 month old smoldering weakage. Tell me you wouldn't... rolleyes.gif
galdur
Well, anyway; I'm sure Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld
will all have a dump in the pants both before and after
the hanging.
galdur
QUOTE (Common Sense+Dec 30 2005, 06:25 PM)
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 06:16 PM)
Of course ---SINCE THE GOVERNMENT DESTROYED THE PHYSICAL EVIDENCE (STEEL) AS FAST AS IT COULD--- it doesn´t have any physical evidence to support ITS OWN conspiracy theory.

Evidently those who systematically destroy crime scene evidence do this because the evidence points to their own culpability or they are protecting  other perpetrators of the crime. There is no way around this. There is cause and there is effect.

Of course not because you morons would say it was heated after the fact. You would be the first to KNOW the samples came from the 2 month old smoldering weakage. Tell me you wouldn't... rolleyes.gif

Idiotic bunk.
adoucette
QUOTE (Common Sense+Dec 30 2005, 05:48 PM)
The best conductors of heat are metals. Further, some metals conduct heat better than others. This can be shown with the conductometer. The conductometer is five rods of equal length attached to a handle. At the free end of each rod is a small piece of wax holding up a small flag. The rods are each made of a different metal - steel (flag #1), brass (#2), aluminum (#3), stainless steel (#4), or copper (#5).

When the handle is heated, the heat is conducted along each of the rods. This heat will eventually melt the wax and make the flags fall. Because some metals conduct heat better then others, the flags will fall one by one, starting with the flag on the rod which best conducts heat (aluminum) and ending with the flag on the poorest-conducting rod (stainless steel). The poorest-conducting rod happens to be such a poor conductor that the aluminum rod melts before the flag falls off the stainless steel rod!


http://www.ap.stmarys.ca/demos/content/the...r(take2)_HR.wmv

http://www.ap.stmarys.ca/demos/content/the...nductivity.html

Note the second to the last flag to fall is STEEL!

More evidence galdur talks out of his a$$.

That's what I like about my cast Iron skillets. I can fry chicken for an hour and still pick the skillet by the handle with a bare hand.

Arthur
Common Sense
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 06:23 PM)
QUOTE (Common Sense+Dec 30 2005, 06:22 PM)
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 05:59 PM)
Sure CS, after the fuel had burned up after 15 minutes TOPS
(even FEMA and NIST are forced to admit this) it's a regular
office in a fire retardent environment. This has never resulted
in the collapse of steel structures much less their total
disintegration except for those three impossible anomalies
on Sept. 11th.

Firefighters reaching the 78th floor at the second tower reported
two isolated fires and wanted two lines to put them out. This
is simply documented and official.

You see what a moron you are? The two fires were on stairway A which was protected by large elevater equipment. That's the staircase a few people took to safety. There were two small fires IN THE STAIR CASE. Do I have to prove this to you aswell? You know I can. wink.gif

Sure, you were there and those firefighters weren´t. biggrin.gif

Just for you you lying sack of shait...

"Battalion Seven Chief: "Battalion Seven ... Ladder 15, we've got two isolated pockets of fire. We should be able to knock it down with two lines. Radio that, 78th floor numerous 10-45 Code Ones."

Ladder 15: "What stair are you in, Orio?"

Battalion Seven Aide: "Seven Alpha to lobby command post."

Ladder Fifteen: "Fifteen to Battalion Seven."

Battalion Seven Chief: "... Ladder 15."

Ladder 15: "Chief, what stair you in?"

Battalion Seven Chief: "South stairway Adam, South Tower."

Now look at this...

http://www.usatoday.com/graphics/news/gra/...irway/frame.htm

Once again

galdur's credibility in real time -> user posted image

user posted image
galdur
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 30 2005, 06:28 PM)
QUOTE (Common Sense+Dec 30 2005, 05:48 PM)
The best conductors of heat are metals. Further, some metals conduct heat better than others. This can be shown with the conductometer. The conductometer is five rods of equal length attached to a handle. At the free end of each rod is a small piece of wax holding up a small flag. The rods are each made of a different metal - steel (flag #1), brass (#2), aluminum (#3), stainless steel (#4), or copper (#5).

When the handle is heated, the heat is conducted along each of the rods. This heat will eventually melt the wax and make the flags fall. Because some metals conduct heat better then others, the flags will fall one by one, starting with the flag on the rod which best conducts heat (aluminum) and ending with the flag on the poorest-conducting rod (stainless steel). The poorest-conducting rod happens to be such a poor conductor that the aluminum rod melts before the flag falls off the stainless steel rod!


http://www.ap.stmarys.ca/demos/content/the...r(take2)_HR.wmv

http://www.ap.stmarys.ca/demos/content/the...nductivity.html

Note the second to the last flag to fall is STEEL!

More evidence galdur talks out of his a$$.

That's what I like about my cast Iron skillets. I can fry chicken for an hour and still pick the skillet by the handle with a bare hand.

Arthur

I guess you're constantly replacing melted skillets. laugh.gif
adoucette
If brains were made out of gunpowder, galdur ouldn't have enough to blow his nose.

laugh.gif

He takes the cake for the most inane arguments and for repeating assertions that have ALREADY been disproven within this very thread.

Arthur
galdur
CS, so what? He doesn't say he needs two lines to
put out fires in the stairway. Your reasoning seems
totally shot. He can be located in the starway after
inspecting the fire at the floor.
Common Sense
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 06:33 PM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 30 2005, 06:28 PM)
QUOTE (Common Sense+Dec 30 2005, 05:48 PM)
The best conductors of heat are metals. Further, some metals conduct heat better than others. This can be shown with the conductometer. The conductometer is five rods of equal length attached to a handle. At the free end of each rod is a small piece of wax holding up a small flag. The rods are each made of a different metal - steel (flag #1), brass (#2), aluminum (#3), stainless steel (#4), or copper (#5).

When the handle is heated, the heat is conducted along each of the rods. This heat will eventually melt the wax and make the flags fall. Because some metals conduct heat better then others, the flags will fall one by one, starting with the flag on the rod which best conducts heat (aluminum) and ending with the flag on the poorest-conducting rod (stainless steel). The poorest-conducting rod happens to be such a poor conductor that the aluminum rod melts before the flag falls off the stainless steel rod!


http://www.ap.stmarys.ca/demos/content/the...r(take2)_HR.wmv

http://www.ap.stmarys.ca/demos/content/the...nductivity.html

Note the second to the last flag to fall is STEEL!

More evidence galdur talks out of his a$$.

That's what I like about my cast Iron skillets. I can fry chicken for an hour and still pick the skillet by the handle with a bare hand.

Arthur

I guess you're constantly replacing melted skillets. laugh.gif

I guess you replace burnt floors and walls when you broil in your metal oven. Your oven turn bright red? I'd send it back.
adoucette
Ok, sure, but then he is on the LOWEST floor that has a fire on it.

So WHAT????

You can SEE from the photos that the fire was burning intensely the entire time, on multiple floors, prior to the collapse.

Arthur
galdur
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 30 2005, 06:35 PM)
If brains were made out of gunpowder, galdur ouldn't have enough to blow his nose.

laugh.gif

He takes the cake for the most inane arguments and for repeating assertions that have ALREADY been disproven within this very thread.

Arthur

Nobody here will see you point to where
this is supposed to have been disproven.
That's for sure.
adoucette
Common Sense just did.

I'd take the time to go back and show how many times you've done it, but frankly showing you're a moron is somewhat redundant.

Arthur
galdur
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 30 2005, 06:40 PM)
Ok, sure, but then he is on the LOWEST floor that has a fire on it.

So WHAT????

You can SEE from the photos that the fire was burning intensely the entire time, on multiple floors, prior to the collapse.

Arthur

This is the SOUTH tower.

But of course you wouldn´t know the difference.



Common Sense
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 06:38 PM)
CS, so what? He doesn't say he needs two lines to
put out fires in the stairway. Your reasoning seems
totally shot. He can be located in the starway after
inspecting the fire at the floor.

The point is your talking out of your a$$ (Again) because not one word puts him out of the stairway. All we have evidence for is him calling from there. An intelligent person whos honestly looking at facts doesn't build a conspiracy around "But he could be out of the staircase so the floor MUST NOT be on fire." Only a moron would leap to that conclution.
brian
Not only did they destroy the evidence they went to great lengths and expense to make sure it would not fall into the wrong hands.


-Highly Sensitive Garbage

Given that the people in charge considered the steel garbage, useless to any investigation in this age of computer simulations, they certainly took pains to make sure it didn't end up anywhere other than a smelting furnace. They installed GPS locater devices on each of the trucks that was carrying loads away from Ground Zero, at a cost of $1000 each. The securitysolutions.com website has an article on the tracking system with this passage.

Ninety-nine percent of the drivers were extremely driven to do their jobs. But there were big concerns, because the loads consisted of highly sensitive material. One driver, for example, took an extended lunch break of an hour and a half. There was nothing criminal about that, but he was dismissed. --

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/groundzero/cleanup.html
galdur
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 30 2005, 06:43 PM)
Common Sense just did.

I'd take the time to go back and show how many times you've done it, but frankly showing you're a moron is somewhat redundant.

Arthur

One village idiot out of touch with reality using
another village idiot as "proof" doesn´t really do it. laugh.gif
galdur
QUOTE (Common Sense+Dec 30 2005, 06:44 PM)
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 06:38 PM)
CS, so what? He doesn't say he needs two lines to
put out fires in the stairway. Your reasoning seems
totally shot. He can be located in the starway after
inspecting the fire at the floor.

The point is your talking out of your a$$ (Again) because not one word puts him out of the stairway. All we have evidence for is him calling from there. An intelligent person whos honestly looking at facts doesn't build a conspiracy around "But he could be out of the staircase so the floor MUST NOT be on fire." Only a moron would leap to that conclution.

Childish.
Common Sense
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 06:47 PM)
QUOTE (Common Sense+Dec 30 2005, 06:44 PM)
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 06:38 PM)
CS, so what? He doesn't say he needs two lines to
put out fires in the stairway. Your reasoning seems
totally shot. He can be located in the starway after
inspecting the fire at the floor.

The point is your talking out of your a$$ (Again) because not one word puts him out of the stairway. All we have evidence for is him calling from there. An intelligent person whos honestly looking at facts doesn't build a conspiracy around "But he could be out of the staircase so the floor MUST NOT be on fire." Only a moron would leap to that conclution.

Childish.

But true, something your posts can't claim.
Common Sense
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 06:46 PM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 30 2005, 06:43 PM)
Common Sense just did.

I'd take the time to go back and show how many times you've done it, but frankly showing you're a moron is somewhat redundant.

Arthur

One village idiot out of touch with reality using
another village idiot as "proof" doesn´t really do it. laugh.gif

No ones told him of the conversation between the pot and kettle. Both of which are metal and don't burn your hand by the way. tongue.gif
galdur
QUOTE (Common Sense+Dec 30 2005, 06:49 PM)
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 06:47 PM)
QUOTE (Common Sense+Dec 30 2005, 06:44 PM)
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 06:38 PM)
CS, so what? He doesn't say he needs two lines to
put out fires in the stairway. Your reasoning seems
totally shot. He can be located in the starway after
inspecting the fire at the floor.

The point is your talking out of your a$$ (Again) because not one word puts him out of the stairway. All we have evidence for is him calling from there. An intelligent person whos honestly looking at facts doesn't build a conspiracy around "But he could be out of the staircase so the floor MUST NOT be on fire." Only a moron would leap to that conclution.

Childish.

But true, something your posts can't claim.

One idiot can´t tell one tower from the other
and the other thinks firefighters ordered up
two lines to put out "two isolated" stairway fires.
Amazing stupidity.
galdur
QUOTE (brian+Dec 30 2005, 06:45 PM)
Not only did they destroy the evidence they went to great lengths and expense to make sure it would not fall into the wrong hands.


-Highly Sensitive Garbage

Given that the people in charge considered the steel garbage, useless to any investigation in this age of computer simulations, they certainly took pains to make sure it didn't end up anywhere other than a smelting furnace. They installed GPS locater devices on each of the trucks that was carrying loads away from Ground Zero, at a cost of $1000 each. The securitysolutions.com website has an article on the tracking system with this passage.

Ninety-nine percent of the drivers were extremely driven to do their jobs. But there were big concerns, because the loads consisted of highly sensitive material. One driver, for example, took an extended lunch break of an hour and a half. There was nothing criminal about that, but he was dismissed. --

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/groundzero/cleanup.html

I'm sure the Chinese kept samples. biggrin.gif

In case Bush and co. fail to behave like obedient puppies. biggrin.gif
Guest_yesitdid
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 05:34 PM)
QUOTE (Guest_yesitdid+Dec 30 2005, 05:30 PM)
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 05:25 PM)
QUOTE (Guest_yesitdid+Dec 30 2005, 05:21 PM)
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 04:59 PM)
Furthermore; steel conducts heat rather well
and each tower contained 200 thousand tons
of the stuff - a gigantic heat sink.

The notion that an office fire (the fuel had burned
up after 15 minutes, even FEMA is forced to admit
that) could weaken the steel and lead to a total
disintigration of these massive structures is simply
ludicrous. Frankly it strains belief that people would
sit on a science thread and present such nonsense.

Hmmm, makes one wonder why they bothered with all that pesky, expensive, yet apparently unneccessary fire insulation at all.

Skycraper design is massively redundant
as most people realize.

Hardly answers the question.

IF the steel was sufficient to transfer the heat from a fuel fire or an office fire to cooler regions and therefore keep the temp of the steel below that at which its strength would be compromised then WHY bother with the expense of installing spray on fire-proofing?

Since you clearly don't realize that skyscraper design
is massively redundant I'll have to reiterate that fact.

Futhermore no steel structures have collapsed due to
fire in the history of such structures. The three buildings
on sept. 11th constitute an impossible anomaly in this regard.

How many times do I have to then ask you this simple question?

IF steel can conduct heat away so efficiently that a fuel fire and office fire cannot supply heat fast enough to overcome that transfer rate and heat the steel to dangerous temps the WHY do steel buildings have insulation on their columns at all?

Why, galdur, why the expensive to provide insulation for something that you claim is not required?
Guest_yesitdid
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 05:40 PM)
It's probably difficult to explain to people who are
totally unfamiliar with what happens at aircraft
crashes but as soon as the fuel tanks rupture the
fuel starts evaporating. That is followed by a huge
fireball as most of the fuel explodes. So I can´t really
blame the designers for ignoring the fuel. They didn't
forget it was there, just didn´t consider it significant as
the structure was concerned. That certainly tells its tale.

Even FEMA admits that the fuel had fully burned up after
15 minutes. After that there's little for the fire. Gypsum
boards don´t really burn and there was no lumber storage
up there. In fact this was a very unfriendly environment
for fire. That goes without saying. People don´t really
design skyscrapers to encourage possible fires.

So there is then also no problem from fuel fires when an aircraft crash lands either. Those who survive the initial crash and make it through to the point at which the aircraft stops moving will have no worries at all from burning fuel.

This IS what you are saying, is this what you intend?
galdur
QUOTE (Guest_yesitdid+Dec 30 2005, 07:01 PM)
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 05:34 PM)
QUOTE (Guest_yesitdid+Dec 30 2005, 05:30 PM)
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 05:25 PM)
QUOTE (Guest_yesitdid+Dec 30 2005, 05:21 PM)
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 04:59 PM)
Furthermore; steel conducts heat rather well
and each tower contained 200 thousand tons
of the stuff - a gigantic heat sink.

The notion that an office fire (the fuel had burned
up after 15 minutes, even FEMA is forced to admit
that) could weaken the steel and lead to a total
disintigration of these massive structures is simply
ludicrous. Frankly it strains belief that people would
sit on a science thread and present such nonsense.

Hmmm, makes one wonder why they bothered with all that pesky, expensive, yet apparently unneccessary fire insulation at all.

Skycraper design is massively redundant
as most people realize.

Hardly answers the question.

IF the steel was sufficient to transfer the heat from a fuel fire or an office fire to cooler regions and therefore keep the temp of the steel below that at which its strength would be compromised then WHY bother with the expense of installing spray on fire-proofing?

Since you clearly don't realize that skyscraper design
is massively redundant I'll have to reiterate that fact.

Futhermore no steel structures have collapsed due to
fire in the history of such structures. The three buildings
on sept. 11th constitute an impossible anomaly in this regard.

How many times do I have to then ask you this simple question?

IF steel can conduct heat away so efficiently that a fuel fire and office fire cannot supply heat fast enough to overcome that transfer rate and heat the steel to dangerous temps the WHY do steel buildings have insulation on their columns at all?

Why, galdur, why the expensive to provide insulation for something that you claim is not required?

I never claimed it wasn´t required.

Not all fires are hydrocarbon fires.

These things are designed for extremely rare and unlikely
occurences. That's why their design is referred to as
redundant. They are meant to be extremely safe.

But since you are obviously unable to comprehend
that the design of skyscrapers is heavily redundant
I´ll just have to try getting it into your head until it
sticks.
galdur
QUOTE (Guest_yesitdid+Dec 30 2005, 07:04 PM)
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 05:40 PM)
It's probably difficult to explain to people who are
totally unfamiliar with what happens at aircraft
crashes but as soon as the fuel tanks rupture the
fuel starts evaporating. That is followed by a huge
fireball as most of the fuel explodes. So I can´t really
blame the designers for ignoring the fuel. They didn't
forget it was there, just didn´t consider it significant as
the structure was concerned. That certainly tells its tale.

Even FEMA admits that the fuel had fully burned up after
15 minutes. After that there's little for the fire. Gypsum
boards don´t really burn and there was no lumber storage
up there. In fact this was a very unfriendly environment
for fire. That goes without saying. People don´t really
design skyscrapers to encourage possible fires.

So there is then also no problem from fuel fires when an aircraft crash lands either. Those who survive the initial crash and make it through to the point at which the aircraft stops moving will have no worries at all from burning fuel.

This IS what you are saying, is this what you intend?

Now, where do you get that idea from?

Your reading comprehension seems very poor.
Common Sense
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 06:52 PM)
QUOTE (Common Sense+Dec 30 2005, 06:49 PM)
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 06:47 PM)
QUOTE (Common Sense+Dec 30 2005, 06:44 PM)
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 06:38 PM)
CS, so what? He doesn't say he needs two lines to
put out fires in the stairway. Your reasoning seems
totally shot. He can be located in the starway after
inspecting the fire at the floor.

The point is your talking out of your a$$ (Again) because not one word puts him out of the stairway. All we have evidence for is him calling from there. An intelligent person whos honestly looking at facts doesn't build a conspiracy around "But he could be out of the staircase so the floor MUST NOT be on fire." Only a moron would leap to that conclution.

Childish.

But true, something your posts can't claim.

One idiot can´t tell one tower from the other
and the other thinks firefighters ordered up
two lines to put out "two isolated" stairway fires.
Amazing stupidity.

Lets look at the facts shall we?

QUOTE
I said: They never took the impact removing the fire proofing into account or the fuel of a 707 burning on impact. I heard the architect say it himself. I believe the interview is on PBS.


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
I said: They never took the impact removing the fire proofing into account or the fuel of a 707 burning on impact. I heard the architect say it himself. I believe the interview is on PBS.


galdur said: So they designed the towers to withstand the impact
of a 707 but forgot the fuel?

This is simply ridiculous.


QUOTE
I said: It is impressive that the World Trade Center towers held up as long as they did after being attacked at full speed by Boeing 767 jets, because they were only designed to withstand a crash from the largest plane at the time: the smaller, slower Boeing 707. And according to Robertson, the 707's fuel load was not even considered at the time. Engineers hope that answering the question of exactly why these towers collapsed will help engineers make even safer skyscrapers in the future. ASCE will file its final report soon, and NIST has been asked to conduct a much broader investigation into the buildings' collapse.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/minu-trans.html



galdur's credibility in real time -> user posted image

user posted image

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
I said: It is impressive that the World Trade Center towers held up as long as they did after being attacked at full speed by Boeing 767 jets, because they were only designed to withstand a crash from the largest plane at the time: the smaller, slower Boeing 707. And according to Robertson, the 707's fuel load was not even considered at the time. Engineers hope that answering the question of exactly why these towers collapsed will help engineers make even safer skyscrapers in the future. ASCE will file its final report soon, and NIST has been asked to conduct a much broader investigation into the buildings' collapse.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/minu-trans.html



galdur's credibility in real time -> user posted image

user posted image

galdur said:Firefighters reaching the 78th floor at the second tower reported
two isolated fires and wanted two lines to put them out. This
is simply documented and official.


QUOTE
I said:"Battalion Seven Chief: "Battalion Seven ... Ladder 15, we've got two isolated pockets of fire. We should be able to knock it down with two lines. Radio that, 78th floor numerous 10-45 Code Ones."

Ladder 15: "What stair are you in, Orio?"

Battalion Seven Aide: "Seven Alpha to lobby command post."

Ladder Fifteen: "Fifteen to Battalion Seven."

Battalion Seven Chief: "... Ladder 15."

Ladder 15: "Chief, what stair you in?"

Battalion Seven Chief: "South stairway Adam, South Tower."

Now look at this...

http://www.usatoday.com/graphics/news/gra/...irway/frame.htm

Once again

galdur's credibility in real time -> user posted image

user posted image


Lets see, I've been right 100% of the time while you're been wrong 100% of the time yet I'm amazingly stupid. Heh! What doe what make you?

Listen my synapticly challenged friend, come back when you gain some common sense. Maybe in a few million years your ancestors will be able to comprehend this thread. Until then keyboards are not made for curled knuckles.
metamars
QUOTE
"the investigators adjusted the input, but only within the range of physical reality."


My interpretation of this is that they didn't adjust the input more than would snap the connections between floor trusses and columns. (Frankly, I'd like to see proof of this before I accept it.) NIST could also have reversed the direction of the input, and as long as they are below the point that the trusses would buckle, they could still claim to be "within the range of reality".

To be "within the range of reality" doesn't mean that you're "within the range of causality" or "within the range of probability", so to speak. Clearly, Jones is implying so much, when you read the rest of his comments.

Not having read the NIST report, maybe I am missing something. Can you point to their calculation/modeling in their report where they prove that floor truss sagging would increase inward pulling (before the truss would break, of course) enough to justify the values they used for their input? Such a demonstration would, of course, tell us how much weight was loaded onto the floors to create such a force. If such a weight was well beyond the maximum capacity of the floor trusses, we can safely dismiss these notions.....

As floor trusses don't need to be anywhere near the strength of columns, and as efficiency concerns dictate not making the connections much stronger than the trusses themselves, I fail to see how one could load the floors sufficiently to cause significant bowing of columns. Thus, it's also quite possible that Jones' is mistaken when he claims "but only within the range of physical reality", if you interprest this remark as meaning "within the range of physical possibility".

Do you honestly think bowing of columns was predominantly due to floor truss forces (as opposed to forces transmitted through the columns themselves)?

yesitdid
FACT is that the 78th floor is the absolute lowest of any floor involved in the imapact & fires in the towers. It is the floor at which the outermost portion of the left wing(IIRC) went through the wall.

Yet so many times we get told that this one report is proof that the fires in the towers were all small. rolleyes.gif

The fact that there may have been small fires on the lowest of impact/fire floors simply cannot be said to be evidence of anything that was happening on higher floors.

So why did the few FF's that made it to 78 not go further up? That is obvious of course, one would not want to be above a floor on fire that was not being actively combatted and risk being cut off if the fire spreads.
galdur
MOST does not mean ALL.

As a result when I say that most of the fuel is consumed
quickly in the fireball that doesn´t mean I'm implying that
all of it is consumed. Furthermore the aircraft contains
combustible material. But of course not all crashes result
in the aircraft being shattered. If an aircraft shatters to pieces
on impact the passengers are typically dead before the fire
even gets to them.
yesitdid
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 07:20 PM)
MOST does not mean ALL.

As a result when I say that most of the fuel is consumed
quickly in the fireball that doesn´t mean I'm implying that
all of it is consumed. Furthermore the aircraft contains
combustible material. But of course not all crashes result
in the aircraft being shattered. If an aircraft shatters to pieces
on impact the passengers are typically dead before the fire
even gets to them.

Which is why I said those who survived until the aircraft came to a halt.

So, if MOST of the fuel was consumed quickly then where did the rest go galdur and what became of it?

Furthermore you wish to characterize offices as fire-unfriendly and now make the statement that aircraft contain many combustibles. Do you not see the foolishness of having these two statements out there? Aircraft after all, have much more to fear from fire than an office building and indeed the restrictions on what can and cannot go into an aircraft are much more stringent in this respect than are those regarding offices.

Your arguement is unraveling.
Common Sense
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 07:20 PM)
MOST does not mean ALL.

As a result when I say that most of the fuel is consumed
quickly in the fireball that doesn´t mean I'm implying that
all of it is consumed. Furthermore the aircraft contains
combustible material. But of course not all crashes result
in the aircraft being shattered. If an aircraft shatters to pieces
on impact the passengers are typically dead before the fire
even gets to them.

Moron, it only has to set things on fire. 5 floors of office supplies can do the rest. YOU ALREADY KNOW THIS yet you pretend you don't.

People keep saying the outer columns shouldn't have bowed in but the photographic evidence is IT BOWED IN. It happened. Now you have to find out why. A bomb isn't going to bow the columns in. So even if you don't like the official report you have to conclude SOMETHING bowed the columns in. WHAT?
galdur
QUOTE (yesitdid+Dec 30 2005, 07:16 PM)
FACT is that the 78th floor is the absolute lowest of any floor involved in the imapact & fires in the towers. It is the floor at which the outermost portion of the left wing(IIRC) went through the wall.

Yet so many times we get told that this one report is proof that the fires in the towers were all small. rolleyes.gif

The fact that there may have been small fires on the lowest of impact/fire floors simply cannot be said to be evidence of anything that was happening on higher floors.

So why did the few FF's that made it to 78 not go further up? That is obvious of course, one would not want to be above a floor on fire that was not being actively combatted and risk being cut off if the fire spreads.

From experience I think your "FACTS" are highly suspect.

Why don´t you for once produce some substantiation.

The south tower was struck at about the 80th floor.

The plane just made one corner, clearly missed the core
altogether and most of the fuel was sprayed out the
adjoining side.
gordon
Thomas W. Eagar and Christopher Musso said
"As the heat of the fire intensified, the joints on the most severely burned floors gave way, causing the perimeter wall columns to bow outward and the floors above them to fall."



Note the outward bowing described, in contradiction to the NIST report and in agreement with my previous posts.
G
steve1957
Brian,

From the few posts I've read of yours you sound reasonably intelligent, honest, logical and sane. It's very rare in this room.

It looks like your trying to use facts and logic to communicate with dishonest air-heads that try to subtly twist the facts around in a feeble to attempt to make their fairy tale sound credable, but as you notice it doesn't work.

Ande every time you post something with truth and logic it makes the halfwits more angry. You're doing a good job Brian, try not to let the mentally deficit people on this board like "yesididit, common sense, arthur and reality check get under your skin to much with their lies and ignorance, it can drive a person nuts after a while.

Try to think of it this way. There like mental zombies
user posted image

No matter what facts are presented to them, they don't respond. They're focused on eating peoples flesh, (metaphoricaly speaking)

I've presented all the PROOF ANYONE EVER NEEDS to show the WTC towers were imploded. Everything from eyewitnesses and video footage to mathematical formulas in physics and the laws of gravity that PROVE beyond any doubt explosives were used, but these brain dead parrots don't have the real common sense and sense of honesty needed to care about the truth.

user posted image
galdur
QUOTE (yesitdid+Dec 30 2005, 07:29 PM)
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 07:20 PM)
MOST does not mean ALL.

As a result when I say that most of the fuel is consumed
quickly in the fireball that doesn´t mean I'm implying that
all of it is consumed. Furthermore the aircraft contains
combustible material. But of course not all crashes result
in the aircraft being shattered. If an aircraft shatters to pieces
on impact the passengers are typically dead before the fire
even gets to them.

Which is why I said those who survived until the aircraft came to a halt.

So, if MOST of the fuel was consumed quickly then where did the rest go galdur and what became of it?

Furthermore you wish to characterize offices as fire-unfriendly and now make the statement that aircraft contain many combustibles. Do you not see the foolishness of having these two statements out there? Aircraft after all, have much more to fear from fire than an office building and indeed the restrictions on what can and cannot go into an aircraft are much more stringent in this respect than are those regarding offices.

Your arguement is unraveling.

Well, most of the fuel burns up quickly and the rest
finishes burning up a little later ie. not quite as quickly.

Even FEMA and NIST understand this but I guess you're
to lazy to read ther reports.

You must be friggin' retarded. This is like talking to a
four year old child. laugh.gif

yesitdid
QUOTE
Why don´t you for once produce some substantiation.

The south tower was struck at about the 80th floor.


Hmm, you substantiate my facts yourself.

If the 78th floor is not "about" the 80th floor then what is?

If the 80th was the lowest floor actually hit then why are small fires on the 78th evidence that the fires in floors more involved in the impact and fuel explosion also had small fires?

Is your blood sugar low? Your thought processes seem a little slow.
yesitdid
QUOTE
Well, most of the fuel burns up quickly and the rest
finishes burning up a little later ie. not quite as quickly


yeah!! galdur finally understands that there was fuel burning even after the initial fireball. How about that.
galdur
QUOTE (gordon+Dec 30 2005, 07:31 PM)
Thomas W. Eagar and Christopher Musso said
"As the heat of the fire intensified, the joints on the most severely burned floors gave way, causing the perimeter wall columns to bow outward and the floors above them to fall."



Note the outward bowing described, in contradiction to the NIST report and in agreement with my previous posts.
G

Intensified? laugh.gif

How's that supposed to have happened?

The fuel had burned up after 15 minutes at most.

What was supposed to have intensified the fire?

galdur
QUOTE (yesitdid+Dec 30 2005, 07:37 PM)
QUOTE
Well, most of the fuel burns up quickly and the rest
finishes burning up a little later ie. not quite as quickly


yeah!! galdur finally understands that there was fuel burning even after the initial fireball. How about that.

You clearly don´t understand the difference between
MOST and ALL. That's your problem not mine.

Are you guys really retarded? You sure sound like you're
dumb as rocks.

galdur
QUOTE (Common Sense+Dec 30 2005, 07:30 PM)
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 07:20 PM)
MOST does not mean ALL.

As a result when I say that most of the fuel is consumed
quickly in the fireball that doesn´t mean I'm implying that
all of it is consumed. Furthermore the aircraft contains
combustible material. But of course not all crashes result
in the aircraft being shattered. If an aircraft shatters to pieces
on impact the passengers are typically dead before the fire
even gets to them.

Moron, it only has to set things on fire. 5 floors of office supplies can do the rest. YOU ALREADY KNOW THIS yet you pretend you don't.

People keep saying the outer columns shouldn't have bowed in but the photographic evidence is IT BOWED IN. It happened. Now you have to find out why. A bomb isn't going to bow the columns in. So even if you don't like the official report you have to conclude SOMETHING bowed the columns in. WHAT?

I think your dumb head must have bowed in at some point.

What the heck are you ranting about anyway?

Common Sense
QUOTE (gordon+Dec 30 2005, 07:31 PM)
Thomas W. Eagar and Christopher Musso said
"As the heat of the fire intensified, the joints on the most severely burned floors gave way, causing the perimeter wall columns to bow outward and the floors above them to fall."



Note the outward bowing described, in contradiction to the NIST report and in agreement with my previous posts.
G

Note the inward bowing in this photograph in contradiction to Thomas W. Eagar and Christopher Musso written word.

User posted image

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/Media_Public_Brie...40505_final.pdf
brian
steve1957, cheers,

I see little point in trying to communicate with those whos only intent is to obfuscate, better to ridicule than respond as they wish, then going round and round the mulberry bush ad nauseum.

I do not have the scientific knowledge of metamars or gordon etc but have no doubt a basic grasp of physics (the real world) is more than enough to be competely satisfied that such structures simply could not have collapsed in the manner they did due to the reasons given in the official account. It is simply ridiculous.

This gentleman below, Ralph Shoenman, has an in depth grasp of the bigger picture and its unusual to hear it in such an understated manner.

A short film worth watching

RALPH SCHOENMAN: 9-11 A FALSE FLAG OPERATION - video/quicktime 10M

http://sandiego.indymedia.org/media/2004/04/103866.mov
Common Sense
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 07:49 PM)
QUOTE (Common Sense+Dec 30 2005, 07:30 PM)
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 07:20 PM)
MOST does not mean ALL.

As a result when I say that most of the fuel is consumed
quickly in the fireball that doesn´t mean I'm implying that
all of it is consumed. Furthermore the aircraft contains
combustible material. But of course not all crashes result
in the aircraft being shattered. If an aircraft shatters to pieces
on impact the passengers are typically dead before the fire
even gets to them.

Moron, it only has to set things on fire. 5 floors of office supplies can do the rest. YOU ALREADY KNOW THIS yet you pretend you don't.

People keep saying the outer columns shouldn't have bowed in but the photographic evidence is IT BOWED IN. It happened. Now you have to find out why. A bomb isn't going to bow the columns in. So even if you don't like the official report you have to conclude SOMETHING bowed the columns in. WHAT?

I think your dumb head must have bowed in at some point.

What the heck are you ranting about anyway?

My bad, I expected you to be intelligent enough to know "Some people" means someone other than galdur.
metamars
User posted image

http://65.217.248.202/bow.jpg

This picture must be two photos of the same building taken at different times, then stuck together.*


This photo clearly shows curvature, but the interesting thing is that it shows it most significantly beneath the horizontal line, before the fires had progressed to the point seen above the horizontal line. (I rotated the picture in Paint Shop Pro until the obvious sight lines on the bottom of the bottom portion were horizontal.) The deviation from straightness on the top part of the picture is neglible compared to what must have been there in the top of the picture taken which yielded the bottom of the coposite picture.

Thus, I conclude that initial curvature was mostly due to load shifting due to some of the column destruction at impact.

Apparently, NIST wants us to believe the bowing occured after fires had done lots of 'steel softening'.

Oh, those dastardly trusses! That WTC 'silly putty' steel! What will NIST have us believe the WTC trusses and columns did next, and when?

Some more details would shed light on this. In particular, video such that we can determine time lapses between frames.


* Even this is a bit uncertain. Column 29 on the top is mysteriously brighter above the horizontal line. But the rule is that columns as a whole are darker above the horizontal line, as seen clearly from columns 20 - 26.
Common Sense
QUOTE (brian+Dec 30 2005, 08:03 PM)
steve1957, cheers,

I see little point in trying to communicate with those whos only intent is to obfuscate, better to ridicule than respond as they wish, then going round and round the mulberry bush ad nauseum.

I do not have the scientific knowledge of metamars or gordon etc but have no doubt a basic grasp of physics (the real world) is more than enough to be competely satisfied that such structures simply could not have collapsed in the manner they did due to the reasons given in the official account. It is simply ridiculous.

This gentleman below, Ralph Shoenman, has an in depth grasp of the bigger picture and its unusual to hear it in such an understated manner.

A short film worth watching

RALPH SCHOENMAN: 9-11 A FALSE FLAG OPERATION - video/quicktime 10M

http://sandiego.indymedia.org/media/2004/04/103866.mov

Another brainwashed fool. It seems all you need is a windows movie maker and people believe anything. Don't suspend common sense when you push play.
steve1957
galdur,

Keep up the good work of posting facts, logic, true science and real common sense. Even though this board is starting to look like a loony bed with all these nut cases running around including the dishonest numbskull's (Arthur, "cOmMoN sEnCe", yesididit, and other fake people with less intelligence than a piss ant) there are still a few people left with some intelligence and appreciation for the truth.

I've tried over and over again to speak calmly, rationally, logically and factually with these people and every time, without fail they completely avoid the issue then bring up some completely irrelevant, off the wall statement in hopes of diverting the subject matter of the conversation.

In reality these guys are scared little chickens, always running for cover in hopes of dodging the truth and when you get them cornered so they can't wiggle out of something they do their usual routine and say "the video is a fake". Even though we all saw the same collapse on every major news network on the planet, these half-wits will tell you those videos were fake and then they try to steer you into some half baked phonied up dog & pony show.

But the point is when you confront these mindless, brain dead, zombies with truthful, factual proof and analyze it with logic they post endless messages of nonsense and confusion as a smoke screen in hopes of blocking the vision of truth.

In fact one of these air-heads openly supports the lie about OJ Simpson and tries to convince people he was innocent, just like his idol Johnnie Cochroach, who used race, lies and confusion to hinder the truth, it's no wonder they share the same beliefs, they have a mutual hatred of the truth, and mutual goal of using an innocent scapegoat in order to let the guilty go free.

I'd rather discuss the actual physics involved with gravity, mass, metallurgy and a few other tangible aspects relating to the events, but it's become a board of circus animals doing fancy tricks.



And there are a few people like yourself who come in and try to speak common sense, but most of the audience are like screaming chimpanzees, they just can't understand.

Keep up the good work.
Common Sense
QUOTE (metamars+Dec 30 2005, 08:05 PM)
User posted image

http://65.217.248.202/bow.jpg

This picture must be two photos of the same building taken at different times, then stuck together.*


This photo clearly shows curvature, but the interesting thing is that it shows it most significantly beneath the horizontal line, before the fires had progressed to the point seen above the horizontal line. (I rotated the picture in Paint Shop Pro until the obvious sight lines on the bottom of the bottom portion were horizontal.) The deviation from straightness on the top part of the picture is neglible compared to what must have been there in the top of the picture taken which yielded the bottom of the coposite picture.

Thus, I conclude that initial curvature was mostly due to load shifting due to some of the column destruction at impact.

Apparently, NIST wants us to believe the bowing occured after fires had done lots of 'steel softening'.

Oh, those dastardly trusses! That WTC 'silly putty' steel! What will NIST have us believe the WTC trusses and columns did next, and when?

Some more details would shed light on this. In particular, video such that we can determine time lapses between frames.


* Even this is a bit uncertain. Column 29 on the top is mysteriously brighter above the horizontal line. But the rule is that columns as a whole are darker above the horizontal line, as seen clearly from columns 20 - 26.

And that's the stratigy. It's sad... I give photographic evidence and NIST is now complicit in the mother of all mass murders. Why don't you just take up arms with the government already so we can purge the gene pool of stupidity.
steve1957
brian,

One thing about "anti-Common Sense" is that he and his air head buddies are consistent with their BS stories, fact twisting, truth blocking insanity. So you gotta give em that.
Common Sense
QUOTE (steve1957+Dec 30 2005, 08:20 PM)
galdur,

Keep up the good work of posting facts, logic, true science and real common sense. Even though this board is starting to look like a loony bed with all these nut cases running around including the dishonest numbskull's (Arthur, "cOmMoN sEnCe", yesididit, and other fake people with less intelligence than a piss ant) there are still a few people left with some intelligence and appreciation for the truth.

I've tried over and over again to speak calmly, rationally, logically and factually with these people and every time, without fail they completely avoid the issue then bring up some completely irrelevant, off the wall statement in hopes of diverting the subject matter of the conversation.

In reality these guys are scared little chickens, always running for cover in hopes of dodging the truth and when you get them cornered so they can't wiggle out of something they do their usual routine and the video is a fake. Even though we all saw the same collapse on every major news network on the planet, these half-wits will tell you those videos were fake and then they try to steer you into some half baked phonied up dog & pony show.

But the point is when you confront these mindless, brain dead, zombies with truthful, factual proof and analyze it with logic they post endless messages of nonsense and confusion as a smoke screen in hopes of blocking the vision of truth.

In fact one of these air-heads openly supports the lie about OJ Simpson and tries to convince people he was innocent, just like his idol Johnnie Cochroach, who used race, lies and confusion to hinder the truth, it's no wonder they share the same beliefs, they have a mutual hatred of the truth.

I'd rather discuss the actual physics involved with gravity, mass, metallurgy and a few other tangible aspects relating to the events, but it's become a board of circus animals doing fancy tricks.



And there are a few people like yourself who come in and try to speak common sense, but most of the audience are like screaming chimpanzees, they just can't understand.

Keep up the good work.

I've posted more facts than all of you combined. They are facts because they are complete. I didn't cut brave firemans interviews in pieces to take their words out of context. You pieces of shait should be ashamed of yourselves. But true con men never are. Steve, a REAL convicted con artist, is saying he post facts but all hes posted were links to his snake oil site. He evokes God in one side of his mouth while lying on the other. Something you learn in jail Steve? I'm sure you learned how to do a lot with that mouth in jail. wink.gif
frater plecticus
QUOTE
I'm sure the Chinese kept samples. 

In case Bush and co. fail to behave like obedient puppies. 


I do hope so.

The most incriminating evidence is, of course physical, the vaporized steel. The only calculation needed is the temperature needed to varorize the steel. (one variable)..no messy calcs here...
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
I'm sure the Chinese kept samples. 

In case Bush and co. fail to behave like obedient puppies. 


I do hope so.

The most incriminating evidence is, of course physical, the vaporized steel. The only calculation needed is the temperature needed to varorize the steel. (one variable)..no messy calcs here...
But that would not explain steel members in the debris pile that appear to have been partly evaporated in extraordinarily high temperatures, Dr. Barnett said.


QUOTE
.2.8.1 Observations and Findings
a. The thinning of the steel occurred by high temperature corrosion due to a combination of oxidation and sulfidation.

b. Heating of the steel into a hot corrosive environment approaching 1,000 °C (1,800 °F) results in the formation of a eutectic mixture of iron, oxygen, and sulfur that liquefied the steel.

c. The sulfidation attack of steel grain boundaries accelerated the corrosion and erosion of the steel.

d. The high concentration of sulfides in the grain boundaries of the corroded regions of the steel occurred due to copper diffusing from the high-strength low-alloy (HSLA) steel combining with iron and sulfur, making both discrete and continuous sulfides in the steel grain boundaries.

8.2.8 Appendix C: Limited Metallurgical Examination
Two structural steel samples from the WTC site were observed to have unusual erosion patterns. One sample is believed to be from WTC 7 and the other from either WTC 1 or WTC 2

8.2.8.2 Recommendations
The severe corrosion and subsequent erosion of Samples 1 and 2 constitute an unusual event. No clear explanation for the source of the sulfur has been identified. The rate of corrosion is also unknown. It is possible that this was the result of long-term heating in the ground following the collapse of the buildings. It is also possible that the phenomenon started prior to collapse and accelerated the weakening of the steel structure. A detailed study into the mechanisms of this phenomenon is needed to determine what risk, if any, is presented to existing steel structures exposed to severe and long-burning fires.


http://www.house.gov/science/hot/wtc/wtc-report/WTC_ch8.pdf

The second most incriminating evidence is the made in USA anthrax, again indisputable.

User posted image

check out the date on the top of the note...

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
.2.8.1 Observations and Findings
a. The thinning of the steel occurred by high temperature corrosion due to a combination of oxidation and sulfidation.

b. Heating of the steel into a hot corrosive environment approaching 1,000 °C (1,800 °F) results in the formation of a eutectic mixture of iron, oxygen, and sulfur that liquefied the steel.

c. The sulfidation attack of steel grain boundaries accelerated the corrosion and erosion of the steel.

d. The high concentration of sulfides in the grain boundaries of the corroded regions of the steel occurred due to copper diffusing from the high-strength low-alloy (HSLA) steel combining with iron and sulfur, making both discrete and continuous sulfides in the steel grain boundaries.

8.2.8 Appendix C: Limited Metallurgical Examination
Two structural steel samples from the WTC site were observed to have unusual erosion patterns. One sample is believed to be from WTC 7 and the other from either WTC 1 or WTC 2

8.2.8.2 Recommendations
The severe corrosion and subsequent erosion of Samples 1 and 2 constitute an unusual event. No clear explanation for the source of the sulfur has been identified. The rate of corrosion is also unknown. It is possible that this was the result of long-term heating in the ground following the collapse of the buildings. It is also possible that the phenomenon started prior to collapse and accelerated the weakening of the steel structure. A detailed study into the mechanisms of this phenomenon is needed to determine what risk, if any, is presented to existing steel structures exposed to severe and long-burning fires.


http://www.house.gov/science/hot/wtc/wtc-report/WTC_ch8.pdf

The second most incriminating evidence is the made in USA anthrax, again indisputable.

User posted image

check out the date on the top of the note...


Anthrax attack bug "identical" to army strain
19:00 09 May 02 NewScientist.com news service
The DNA sequence of the anthrax sent through the US mail in 2001 has been revealed and confirms suspicions that the bacteria originally came from a US military laboratory.
The data released uses codenames for the reference strains against which the attack strain was compared. But New Scientist can reveal that the two reference strains that appear identical to the attack strain most likely originated at the US Army Medical Research Institute for Infectious Diseases at Fort Detrick (USAMRIID), Maryland.
The new work also shows that substantial genetic differences can emerge in two samples of an anthrax culture separated for only three years. This means the attacker's anthrax was not separated from its ancestors at USAMRIID for many generations.


The third most incriminating evidence is the supposed threat angel is next.....

QUOTE
The principal clue leading us to the existence of the rogue network behind 9/11 is the“Angel is next” threat. Since hasty attempts to deny that this ever existed came soon after 9/11, we pause to document the evidence that this call really did take place.

In an interview with Tony Snow on Fox News Sunday, National Security Advisor
Condoleezza Rice confirmed that the September 11 threat against President Bush’s lifeincluded a secret code name.

SNOW: Sept. 11 there was a report that there was a coded message that
said, “We’re going to strike Air Force One” that was using specific coded
language and made the threat credible. Is that true?

RICE: That is true.

SNOW: So we have a mole somewhere?

RICE: It’s not clear how this coded name was gotten. We’re a very open
society and I don’t think it’s any surprise to anyone that leaks happen. So,
I don’t know -- it’s possible the code name leaked a long time ago and was
just used.

SNOW: How on earth would that happen?

RICE: I don’t know. I don’t know. We’re obviously looking very hard at
the situation. But I will tell you that it was plenty of evidence from our
point of view to have special measures taken at that moment to make sure
the president was safe.


And the fourth smoking gun, is Arthur or Adoucette himself... a treasonous terrorist "appologist" (sic)

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The principal clue leading us to the existence of the rogue network behind 9/11 is the“Angel is next” threat. Since hasty attempts to deny that this ever existed came soon after 9/11, we pause to document the evidence that this call really did take place.

In an interview with Tony Snow on Fox News Sunday, National Security Advisor
Condoleezza Rice confirmed that the September 11 threat against President Bush’s lifeincluded a secret code name.

SNOW: Sept. 11 there was a report that there was a coded message that
said, “We’re going to strike Air Force One” that was using specific coded
language and made the threat credible. Is that true?

RICE: That is true.

SNOW: So we have a mole somewhere?

RICE: It’s not clear how this coded name was gotten. We’re a very open
society and I don’t think it’s any surprise to anyone that leaks happen. So,
I don’t know -- it’s possible the code name leaked a long time ago and was
just used.

SNOW: How on earth would that happen?

RICE: I don’t know. I don’t know. We’re obviously looking very hard at
the situation. But I will tell you that it was plenty of evidence from our
point of view to have special measures taken at that moment to make sure
the president was safe.


And the fourth smoking gun, is Arthur or Adoucette himself... a treasonous terrorist "appologist" (sic)

Adoucette, or Arthur or Arthur Doucette

Threads started by Arthur.
http://www.airdisaster.com/forums/search.p...61&pp=25&page=1

FAA, NORAD and 9/11.
http://www.airdisaster.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53044

Notes on radiation, by Arthur Doucette June, 2001.
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:SE4O5...Arthur+Doucette

Climate debate maestro.
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:7bOOQ...Arthur+Doucette

Flight crash expert.
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:bij5n...Arthur+Doucette


GOOGLE FUN
http://www.google.com/search?q=Arthur+Doucette

ARTHUR WORKS FOR CARREKER ANTINORI INC.
14001 N. DALLAS PARKWAY, SUITE 1100 DALLAS TX 75240 USA Phone:
972-458-1981 Fax: 972-701-0758,

http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:bzFbO...r-Antinori,+Inc.

About Carreker-Antinori - Carreker-Antinori, Inc. is a leading provider of integrated consulting and software solutions that enable banks to increase revenue and/or reduce costs, while leveraging institutions’ existing core competencies in order to realize their e-commerce potential. The Company's offerings include revenue enhancement, payment systems, and e-business solutions. The Company's customers include 170 financial institutions in the U.S., Canada, United Kingdom, Ireland and Australia, including 70 of the largest 100 banks in the United States.
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:5zSqY...r-Antinori,+Inc


STATEMENT OF CHANGES IN BENEFICIAL OWNERSHIP
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:DIDXq...r-Antinori,+Inc


And wadda know, you are also part of this mammoth 10 mb list. (INCIDENTALLY FOUND on the UNITED STATES SECURITIES AND EXCHANGE COMMISSION SERVER. I HAD TO "TRANSLATE IT" TO MAKE IT VISIBLE)

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=e...%3D%26client%3D

DOUCETTE ARTHUR:0001061807:


QUOTE (zoktoberfest+Dec 28 2005, 10:31 PM)
The "big boys" with big computers. Do you mean companies like "Diebold" whose CEO was a "Pioneer" level campaign funder and staunch supporter of the bush candidacy and re-election efforts?

It's funny that you mention Diebold, because Arthur Doucette (adoucette here) was an officer in my bank Carreker Corp.
And my bank happens to have closed a business alliance with Diebold.
I must add that mr Doucette has always been very faithful to Carreker and Diebold management.





QUOTE

CONCLUSIONS
So far we have come to the following conclusions:
1. The government’s assertion that the so-called hijackers operated without being
detected by official surveillance is untenable, and evidence is strong that the
alleged hijackers acted in coordination with a faction within the government itself.
The hijackers were therefore in all probability expendable double agents or, more
bluntly, patsies.

2. The government’s assertion that the four supposedly hijacked airliners were taken over and piloted by the four accused hijackers identified by the FBI is at or
beyond the limits of physical and technical reality. The planes were in all probability guided to their targets by some form of remote access or remote
control.

3. The government’s assertion that the failures of air defense were caused by the fog of war is lame and absurd. Air defense was in all probability sabotaged by moles operating inside the government.

4. The government’s assertion that a Boeing 757-200 hit the Pentagon is physically
impossible. Some other type of flying object, possibly a cruise missile, must
therefore be considered.

5. The government’s assertion that the Twin Towers of the World Trade Center
collapsed as a result of the impact of aircraft and of the subsequent fire is
physically impossible. The fall of the towers cannot be explained without the
hypothesis of controlled demolition of some form, possibly including
unconventional methods employing new physical principles.

6. The government’s assertion that World Trade Center 7 collapsed at 5:20 PM EDT
on September 11 purely as a result of fire is physically impossible. The collapse
of WTC 7 is coherent with controlled demolition of the conventional type.

7. The government’s assertion that United Flight 93 crashed because of actions by
the hijackers or because of a struggle in the cockpit is physically impossible,
given the pattern in which the wreckage was distributed. All evidence points
towards the hypothesis that United 93 was shot down by US military aircraft.

8. The government’s refusal to investigate insider trading in American Airlines and
United Airlines put options, the wholesale seizure and destruction of evidence, the
systematic intimidation of witnesses by the FBI, and a series of other incidents
point unmistakably to an attempted coverup on the part of the entire US
government and establishment.


QUOTE (->
QUOTE

CONCLUSIONS
So far we have come to the following conclusions:
1. The government’s assertion that the so-called hijackers operated without being
detected by official surveillance is untenable, and evidence is strong that the
alleged hijackers acted in coordination with a faction within the government itself.
The hijackers were therefore in all probability expendable double agents or, more
bluntly, patsies.

2. The government’s assertion that the four supposedly hijacked airliners were taken over and piloted by the four accused hijackers identified by the FBI is at or
beyond the limits of physical and technical reality. The planes were in all probability guided to their targets by some form of remote access or remote
control.

3. The government’s assertion that the failures of air defense were caused by the fog of war is lame and absurd. Air defense was in all probability sabotaged by moles operating inside the government.

4. The government’s assertion that a Boeing 757-200 hit the Pentagon is physically
impossible. Some other type of flying object, possibly a cruise missile, must
therefore be considered.

5. The government’s assertion that the Twin Towers of the World Trade Center
collapsed as a result of the impact of aircraft and of the subsequent fire is
physically impossible. The fall of the towers cannot be explained without the
hypothesis of controlled demolition of some form, possibly including
unconventional methods employing new physical principles.

6. The government’s assertion that World Trade Center 7 collapsed at 5:20 PM EDT
on September 11 purely as a result of fire is physically impossible. The collapse
of WTC 7 is coherent with controlled demolition of the conventional type.

7. The government’s assertion that United Flight 93 crashed because of actions by
the hijackers or because of a struggle in the cockpit is physically impossible,
given the pattern in which the wreckage was distributed. All evidence points
towards the hypothesis that United 93 was shot down by US military aircraft.

8. The government’s refusal to investigate insider trading in American Airlines and
United Airlines put options, the wholesale seizure and destruction of evidence, the
systematic intimidation of witnesses by the FBI, and a series of other incidents
point unmistakably to an attempted coverup on the part of the entire US
government and establishment.




BUSH IN HELL (with Arthur + co)
At the bottom of Dante’s Inferno, in that third part of the traitors’ ninth circle which iscalled Tolomea, Dante and Vergil encounter a certain Frate Alberigo of Faenza. Tolomeais devoted to that species of traitors who have betrayed their own guests. The peculiarityof Frate Alberigo is that he is apparently alive on earth, even while his soul is being tormented in the depths of Hell. Frate Alberigo explains that in cases of particularly heinous betrayal, the damned soul departs from the body and descends directly into Hell. The body remains alive, but it is operated by a demon during the rest of its natural life span. Something similar happened to Bush when he betrayed his oath of office by turning the US government over to the rogue network on 9/11. The demon has been in controlever since.



synthetic terror by webster tarpley 2mb pdf

PS THE SILVERSTEIN "PULL IT" QUOTE PROVES NOTHING... The physical evidence, on the other hand..... is more than enough to hang Bush (regardless of whether he was running the show or not) + co....
metamars
QUOTE
And that's the stratigy. It's sad... I give photographic evidence and NIST is now complicit in the mother of all mass murders.


NIST not getting to the bottom (no pun intended) of the collapses is what's sad. If you doubt this, talk to family members who lost loved ones in the collapses....


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
And that's the stratigy. It's sad... I give photographic evidence and NIST is now complicit in the mother of all mass murders.


NIST not getting to the bottom (no pun intended) of the collapses is what's sad. If you doubt this, talk to family members who lost loved ones in the collapses....


Why don't you just take up arms with the government already so we can purge the gene pool of stupidity.


I'd much prefer that we collectively fund a serious study. That's really not too much to ask if the US Government wasn't hiding it's complicity.

Anyway, I don't much understand this comment. I suppose you're implying that I'm implying that NIST employees involved in constructing their sham investigation are stupid. Not really. It's their ethics I have a problem with. And I certainly don't mean every last NIST employee, but those that had key decision making powers as to approach.

Even lower level employees who realize the game being played are not totally exonerated. However, I don't make it my business to worry about individual guilt. I'd be happy enough to disempower all the evil-doers. They can go live in luxury, off of American soil, for all I care. I'm not their judge.

South Africa had a Truth and Reconcilation process after apartheid ended. We need something like that here. We'll never get to the bottom of this as long as the perpetrators fear spending the rest of their lives in jail, or worse.
gordon
Metamars asked,
Do you honestly think bowing of columns was predominantly due to floor truss forces (as opposed to forces transmitted through the columns themselves)?


If you apply a vertical load on a vertical column the largest load it can carry before buckling is given by Euler’s formula and is stated as
Buckling Load = ((pi)^2 * E * I) / L^2
Where E is Youngs Modulus
And I is the second moment of area
And L is the column height

The maximum compressive load which can be carried within the elastic limit can be shown to be
Maximum compressive Load = E * deformation * csa / orig. length

To find the relationship between the two we can use the term

Buckling Load = X * Maximum compressive load

And solve for X such that

X = (((pi)^2 * E * I) / L^2) / (E * deformation * csa / orig. length )

Now consider an I section beam with dimensions 350mm x 250mm x 12mm

I for the plane which we are considering is 119 x 10^-6 m^4
Csa is 0.0111 m^2
And using a length of 3.7m and 0.15% deformation we can see that

The minimum load to induce buckling is more than five times the load required to move the beam out of its elastic range in compression. Using 0.2% compressive deflection it would still be four times as much.

However this formula assumes perfect alignment of the beam vertically. The required load would reduce if there were any deflections prior to loading or if the beam were subject to forces in other directions.

So in answer to your question, is buckling more likely to have occurred due to either forces transmitted through the floor or forces transmitted vertically through the columns, I would say that since it takes less load to cause a compressive failure than it does to cause buckling then if buckling occurred there must have been an element of displacement caused by the load transmitted through the floor. And in the absence of such forces failure would not be through buckling.

Gordon.
Common Sense
QUOTE (metamars+Dec 30 2005, 08:43 PM)
QUOTE
And that's the stratigy. It's sad... I give photographic evidence and NIST is now complicit in the mother of all mass murders.


NIST not getting to the bottom (no pun intended) of the collapses is what's sad. If you doubt this, talk to family members who lost loved ones in the collapses....


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
And that's the stratigy. It's sad... I give photographic evidence and NIST is now complicit in the mother of all mass murders.


NIST not getting to the bottom (no pun intended) of the collapses is what's sad. If you doubt this, talk to family members who lost loved ones in the collapses....


Why don't you just take up arms with the government already so we can purge the gene pool of stupidity.


I'd much prefer that we collectively fund a serious study. That's really not too much to ask if the US Government wasn't hiding it's complicity.

Anyway, I don't much understand this comment. I suppose you're implying that I'm implying that NIST employees involved in constructing their sham investigation are stupid. Not really. It's their ethics I have a problem with. And I certainly don't mean every last NIST employee, but those that had key decision making powers as to approach.

Even lower level employees who realize the game being played are not totally exonerated. However, I don't make it my business to worry about individual guilt. I'd be happy enough to disempower all the evil-doers. They can go live in luxury, off of American soil, for all I care. I'm not their judge.

South Africa had a Truth and Reconcilation process after apartheid ended. We need something like that here. We'll never get to the bottom of this as long as the perpetrators fear spending the rest of their lives in jail, or worse.

So you think the widows and widowers of 9/11 like "The Jersey Girls" are in on the conspiracy? Because they haven't asked for an investigation into this lunacy. In fact nor have the cops, fire fighters or any others who had loved ones die that day. "Thank God" there are only a few of you.

We spent 16 million to investigate something we already knew. I for one don't want my tax dollars going down the same hole they went in the 90's when the republicans spent 70 million investigating Clinton. I rather spend 70 million investigating his decision to go to war and his manipulating evidence to fit his policy. We HAVE evidence of that. All you guys have is attack on evidence without providing a shred yourself. Because even if you're right (No evidence of this yet) you still have to connect Bush. All you have is "It must be him".
steve1957
Common Sense,

I'm curious why my past is relevant to the conversation. What if I was Charles Manson in disguise? Or what if I was really president bush in disguise? How about Clinton or Jimmy Carter?

How do you really know who I am? Maybe I'm a computer hack, who is stealing Steve's identity to cover up my real name. How do you really know who I am, or who any of us are on this message board.

Maybe I'm Saddam, or Bin Laden, or Bill O'Reilly piggy backing on Steve's identity,
maybe I'm OJ Simpson or Britney Spears? How do you really know if I'm really the guy I claim to be or if I'm just a hack trying to use someone elses name to cover up my real identity?

The point is (numbskull) is that it is totally irrelevant who or what I am, what matters are the messages that are posted.

You might be Rush Limbaugh in disguise, or John Kerry, that's irrelevant to this board, what matters are your posts, the things you are saying, and if you say something correct, I'll agree, (even though you've acted like such a total nit-wit in your other posts)

The past is dead and gone, what matters are your next posts from here on out, if you continue with your lies and nonse and total moronic insanity, then you might get called on it, that is if I have the time or someone else with intelligence enough to see through your obvious SCAMS.

But if I'm busy with other things, don't your getting off scott free, because I might come back and give you another whooping on this board and remind people of SHAMEFUL things you've been saying.

brian
From Common Sense -

"So you think the widows and widowers of 9/11 like "The Jersey Girls" are in on the conspiracy? Because they haven't asked for an investigation into this lunacy. In fact nor have the cops, fire fighters or any others who had loved ones die that day. "Thank God" there are only a few of you."

Ignorance or lies?

"The Jersey Girls" were largely responsible for the inquiry though their persistance and are unhappy with the outcome.

Fire Engineers Call WTC Probe ‘Half-Baked Farce’

A respected professional magazine read by firefighters and engineers is calling the investigation into the collapse of the World Trade Towers a farce and a sham

http://www.americanfreepress.net/Conspirac..._wtc_probe.html

More than a few New Yorkers are among the "only a few" according to the Zogby Poll

"Half of New Yorkers Believe US Leaders Had Foreknowledge of Impending 9-11 Attacks and “Consciously Failed” To Act; 66% Call For New Probe of Unanswered Questions by Congress or New York’s Attorney General, New Zogby International Poll Reveals"

http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=855
metamars
QUOTE
So in answer to your question, is buckling more likely to have occurred due to either forces transmitted through the floor or forces transmitted vertically through the columns, I would say that since it takes less load to cause a compressive failure than it does to cause buckling then if buckling occurred there must have been an element of displacement caused by the load transmitted through the floor. And in the absence of such forces failure would not be through buckling.


So, am I to understand that a .15% or .20% deflection implies "buckling"? I would have thought of this a bowing, not buckling, though come to think of it, the links to bent I-beams I posted were certainly inelastically deformed, and they had precious little deflection.

Also, I take the definition of deflection to by the distance from plumb divided by the length of the beam. Is this correct?
brian
"September 11 Victim Families who Fought to Create the 9/11 Commission Declare it a Failure on the First Anniversary of the 9/11 Report."

- 9/11 families join researchers to ask independent media and foreign press for help

-"Lead presenters are 9/11 family members and Family Steering Committee cofounders, Monica Gabrielle, Mindy Kleinberg and Lorie Van Auken. After the FSC members' 18 months of lobbying finally forced a 9/11 investigation and the Commission's creation, they submitted hundreds of unanswered questions that Commissioner Jamie Gorelick promised would be their investigation's "road map". However, by these courageous widows' count, the Commission ignored approximately 70% of their concerns, and also suppressed important evidence and whistleblower testimony that challenged the official story on many fronts." -

http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20050721082040972
adoucette
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 07:20 PM)
MOST does not mean ALL.

As a result when I say that most of the fuel is consumed
quickly in the fireball that doesn´t mean I'm implying that
all of it is consumed. Furthermore the aircraft contains
combustible material. But of course not all crashes result
in the aircraft being shattered. If an aircraft shatters to pieces
on impact the passengers are typically dead before the fire
even gets to them.

Moron,

Now how many OTHER airliner crashes are you aware of that were INTO a building large enough for the entire plane to fit within?

There wasn't ENOUGH air within the building for it to ALL burn up in a fireball.

GOT IT.

Arthur
adoucette
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 06:43 PM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 30 2005, 06:40 PM)
Ok, sure, but then he is on the LOWEST floor that has a fire on it.

So WHAT????

You can SEE from the photos that the fire was burning intensely the entire time, on multiple floors, prior to the collapse.

Arthur

This is the SOUTH tower.

But of course you wouldn´t know the difference.

MORON,

The 78th was the LOWEST FLOOR that had fires on it in the SOUTH TOWER.

The second statement applies to BOTH towers.

GOT IT.

Arthur
metamars
QUOTE
So you think the widows and widowers of 9/11 like "The Jersey Girls" are in on the conspiracy? Because they haven't asked for an investigation into this lunacy. In fact nor have the cops, fire fighters or any others who had loved ones die that day. "Thank God" there are only a few of you.


Disingenous. brian presented a good answer, though I feel compelled to point out the absurdity of your "logic". If a 911 widow or widower does not ask for a thorough re-investigation, then they are "part of the conspiracy"? Yeah, right.....



QUOTE (->
QUOTE
So you think the widows and widowers of 9/11 like "The Jersey Girls" are in on the conspiracy? Because they haven't asked for an investigation into this lunacy. In fact nor have the cops, fire fighters or any others who had loved ones die that day. "Thank God" there are only a few of you.


Disingenous. brian presented a good answer, though I feel compelled to point out the absurdity of your "logic". If a 911 widow or widower does not ask for a thorough re-investigation, then they are "part of the conspiracy"? Yeah, right.....



We spent 16 million to investigate something we already knew. I for one don't want my tax dollars going down the same hole they went in the 90's when the republicans spent 70 million investigating Clinton.


20 million dollars divided by 100 million tax payers comes out to twenty cents. If it makes you any happier, if we DO get another investigation, post your PayPal account and I'll fund it with 20 cents to cover your shortfall. We wouldn't want Common Sense to have a Sour Puss!

QUOTE
All you guys have is attack on evidence without providing a shred yourself.


Physical evidence I don't have, and I'm sure most nobody else has. Was that our job, to rush to the crime scene and abscond with the evidence? Isn't that a felony?

If it makes you happy, though, Karl Schwarz (karlschwarz.com; interviewed, from time to time, on rbnlive.com) reports that he is still getting evidence re 911. Not sure if he will keep passing it to Eliot Spitzer, who shows no indication of doing his job wrt the 911 atrocities.

Photographic, video, first person accounts, etc. we do have in the public domain. And we have analyzed what we can access, to show what a farce the FEMA and NIST Fairy Tales are. If you read most of this thread, you know this very well. So, why do you ask??

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
All you guys have is attack on evidence without providing a shred yourself.


Physical evidence I don't have, and I'm sure most nobody else has. Was that our job, to rush to the crime scene and abscond with the evidence? Isn't that a felony?

If it makes you happy, though, Karl Schwarz (karlschwarz.com; interviewed, from time to time, on rbnlive.com) reports that he is still getting evidence re 911. Not sure if he will keep passing it to Eliot Spitzer, who shows no indication of doing his job wrt the 911 atrocities.

Photographic, video, first person accounts, etc. we do have in the public domain. And we have analyzed what we can access, to show what a farce the FEMA and NIST Fairy Tales are. If you read most of this thread, you know this very well. So, why do you ask??

Because even if you're right (No evidence of this yet) you still have to connect Bush. All you have is "It must be him".

Baloney. Why do we have to connect to Bush? (though he obviously helped cover up the 911 atrocities, and thus is an accessory after the fact, at least) You are making rules for us which don't apply, and imputing partisan motives* to us that I don't share, and that you have no way of knowing whether or not they are even generally true, or not.

* Note well the cowardly, and treasonous near universal silence by both Democrats and Republicans in Congress re 911. Democrat Cynthia McKinney is a welcome exception, but an exception that proves the rule, nonetheless.
gordon
Metamars,
Imagine a steel rod standing on end and gradually place weight on top of it. It will compress as you increase the weight in a direct ratio such as 1 tonne,1mm 2tonne,2mm. This is the compressive deflection.
At some particular weight, and this will depend on the cross sectional geometry of the rod, buckling will be induced. Buckling means that it begins to "elbow". The mid point of the rod will deflect sideways and it will be curved. The initial deflection after the minimum buckling load has been reached can be quite rapid but this would not necessarily mean total and immediate catastrophic failure since it would still require a force to continue the buckling to a point where the rod fractured or bent in half or broke its fixings or some other failure.
Do you have a steel ruler or something similar? You won't see the compressive deflection since it is too small but you will see elastic buckling and if you push hard enough, plastic as well.
Obviously a column's geometry would make it much stiffer but you get the idea.
G
brian
Article on subject metamars refers to - scroll to final essay

The Democratic Party, Like The Republican Party and The Media, Covered Up The Deep Complicity In The 9/11/01 Attack By Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld-Myers
By John B. Massen, Guest Writer — Summary Analysis

http://www.projectcensored.org/newsflash/u...stions_911.html
adoucette
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 07:31 PM)
QUOTE (yesitdid+Dec 30 2005, 07:16 PM)
FACT is that the 78th floor is the absolute lowest of any floor involved in the imapact & fires in the towers. It is the floor at which the outermost portion of the left wing(IIRC) went through the wall.

Yet so many times we get told that this one report is proof that the fires in the towers were all small. rolleyes.gif

The fact that there may have been small fires on the lowest of impact/fire floors simply cannot be said to be evidence of anything that was happening on higher floors.

So why did the few FF's that made it to 78 not go further up? That is obvious of course, one would not want to be above a floor on fire that was not being actively combatted and risk being cut off if the fire spreads.

From experience I think your "FACTS" are highly suspect.

Why don´t you for once produce some substantiation.

The south tower was struck at about the 80th floor.

The plane just made one corner, clearly missed the core
altogether and most of the fuel was sprayed out the
adjoining side.

MORON,

The plane hit at an angle spanning 8 floors.

IT DIDN'T HIT THE CORNER OF THE BUILDING.

The columns are labeled 400 to 460 on the side it hit. The Center of impact was at column 422. The area between the engines (most serious mass of aircraft) spanned from columns 415 to 429. NOTE column 430 is dead center.

It did more damage to the Core than the WTC 1 impact.

It severed an estimated TEN Core Columns, along with 33 Exterior columns.

Approx 15% of the fuel burned in the initial fireball inside the building, approx 25% burned in the external fireballs, leaving ~60% UNBURNED.

The primary damage from impact was for floors 79 to 82.

GOT IT

Arthur
yesitdid
QUOTE
The primary damage from impact was for floors 79 to 82.


The extent of all damage from the impact extended from floor 77 to 84.

Again though the Ct would have it that small fires on floor 78 are proof that nothing but small fires were on any floor, including those more in the vertical center of the impact range.
yesitdid
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 07:41 PM)
QUOTE (yesitdid+Dec 30 2005, 07:37 PM)
QUOTE
Well, most of the fuel burns up quickly and the rest
finishes burning up a little later ie. not quite as quickly


yeah!! galdur finally understands that there was fuel burning even after the initial fireball. How about that.

You clearly don´t understand the difference between
MOST and ALL. That's your problem not mine.

Are you guys really retarded? You sure sound like you're
dumb as rocks.

Please then , expand on this. Just how much is MOST? Technically it could be 51%

Out of several thousand gallons of fuel how much was still available after the initial fireball galdur? 1000 gallons? 500 gallons? 100? 50? 10?

How much fuel was still left to burn galdur?
Will Galdur's answer be a Seasame Street, "A little bit".
yesitdid
Page 46 and 47 of this report show the inward bowing of the perimeter columns quite well.
yesitdid
•10:06 amNYPD aviation unit advises everybody to evacuate the area in thevicinity of Battery Park City and states that, about 15 floors from the top, it is totally glowing red on the inside and collapse was inevitable.
NYPD officer advises that it is isn’t going to take much longer before the North tower comes down and to pull emergency vehicles back from the building.
•10:21 amNYPD aviation unit first reports that the top of the tower mightbe leaning, then confirms that it is buckling and leaning to the South.
NYPD aviation unit reports that the North tower is leaning to the Southwest and appears to be buckling in the Southwest corner.
NYPD officer advises that all personnel close to the building pull back three blocks in every direction.
•10:28 amNYPD aviation unit reports that the roof is going to come down very shortly.
NYPD officer reports that the tower is collapsing.
frater plecticus
Throughout history, [reason] has been our only true savior. - Common Sense ™

Common sense, Reason depends on axioms too...


I think Crowley sums it up nicely...

QUOTE
. It will soon be admitted on all hands that the study of the nature of things in themselves is a work for which the human reason is incompetent; for the nature of reason is such that it must always formulate itself in proportions which merely assert a positive or negative relation between a subject and a predicate.


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
. It will soon be admitted on all hands that the study of the nature of things in themselves is a work for which the human reason is incompetent; for the nature of reason is such that it must always formulate itself in proportions which merely assert a positive or negative relation between a subject and a predicate.



AL II,32: "Also reason is a lie; for there is a factor infinite & unknown; & all their words are skew-wise."

THE OLD COMMENT.

32. We have insufficient data on which to reason. This passage only allies to 'rational' criticism of the Things Beyond.

THE NEW COMMENT.

The 'factor infinite and unknown' is the subconscious Will. 'On with the revel!" 'Their words' -- the plausible humbug of the newspapers and the churches. Forget it! Allons! Marchons!
It has been explained at length in a previous note that 'reason is a lie' by nature. We may here add certain confirmations suggested by the 'factor.' A and a (not-A) together make up the Universe. As a is evidently 'infinite and unknown,' its equal and opposite A must be so no less. Again, from any proposition S is P, reason deduces "S is not p;" thus the apparent finitude and knowability of S is deceptive, since it is in direct relation with p.
No matter what n may be, {?infinity?}, the number of the inductive numbers, is unaltered by adding or subtracting it. There are just as many odd numbers as there are numbers altogether. Our knowledge is confined to statements of the relations between certain sets of our own sensory impressions; and we are convinced by our limitations that 'a factor infinite and unknown' must be concealed within the sphere of which we see but one minute part of the surface. As to reason itself, what is more certain than that its laws are only the conscious expression of the limits imposed upon us by our animal nature, and that to attribute universal validity, or even significance, to them is a logical folly, the raving of our megalomania? Experiment proves nothing; it is surely obvious that we are obliged to correlate all observations with the physical and mental structure whose truth we are trying to test. Indeed, we can assume an 'unreasonable' axiom, and translate the whole of our knowledge into its terms, without fear of stumbling over any obstacle. Reason is no more than a set or rules developed by the race; it takes no account of anything beyond sensory impressions and their reactions to various parts of our being. There is no possible escape from the vicious circle that we can register only the behaviour of our own instrument. We conclude from the fact that it behaves at all, that there must be 'a factor infinite and unknown' at work upon it. This being the case, we may be sure that our apparatus is inherently incapable of discovering the truth about anything, even in part.
Let me illustrate. I see a drop of water. Distrusting my eyes, I put it under the microscope. Still in doubt, I photograph and enlarge the slide. I compare my results with those of others. I check them by cultivating the germs in the water, and injecting them into paupers. But I have learnt nothing at all about 'the infinite and unknown,' merely producing all sorts of different impressions according to the conditions in which one observes it!
More yet, all the instruments used have been tested and declared "true" on the evidence of those very eyes distrust of which drove me to the research.
Modern Science has at last grown out of the very-young-man cocksureness of the 19th century. It is now admitted that axioms themselves depend on definitions, and that Intuitive Certainty is simply one trait of "homo sapiens", like the ears of the *** or the slime of the slug. That we reason as we do merely proves that we cannot reason otherwise. We cannot move the upper jaw; it does not follow that the idea of motion is ridiculous. The limitation hints rather that there may be an infinite variety of structures which the jaw cannot imagine. The metric system is not the necessary mode of measurement. It is the mark of a mind untrained to take its own processes as valid for all men, and its own judgments for absolute truth. Our two eyes see an object in two aspects, and present to our consciousness a third which agrees with neither, is indeed, strictly speaking, not sensible to sight, but to touch! Our senses declare some things at rest and others in motion; our reason corrects the error, firstly by denying that anything can exist unless it is in motion, secondly by denying that absolute motion possesses any meaning at all.
At the time when this Book was written, official Science angrily scouted the 'factor infinite and unknown,' and clung with pathetic faith to the idea that reason was the touchstone of truth. In a single sentence, Aiwaz anticipates the discoveries by which the greatest minds now incarnate have made the last ten years memorable.


AL II,33: "Enough of Because! Be he damned for a dog!"

THE OLD COMMENT.

33. We pass from the wandering in the jungle of Reason to -- the Awakening. (see next verse).

THE NEW COMMENT.

This is the only way to deal with reason. Reason is like a woman; if you listen, you are lost; with a thick stick, you have some sort of sporting chance. Reason leads the philosopher to self-contradiction, the statesman to doctrinaire follies; it makes the warrior lay down his arms, and the lover cease to rave. What is so unreasonable as man? The only Because in the lover's litany is Because I love you. We want no skeleton syllogisms at our symposium of souls.
Philosophically, 'Because is absurd.' There is no answer to the question "Why." The greatest thinkers have been sceptics or agnostics: "omnia exeunt in mysterium"," and "summa scientia nihil scire" are old commonplaces. In my essays 'Truth' (in Konx Om Pax), 'The Soldier and the Hunchback,' 'Eleusis' and others, I have offered a detailed demonstration of the self-contradictory nature of Reason. The crux of the whole proof may be summarized by saying that any possible proposition must be equally true with its contradictory, as, if not, the universe would no longer be in equilibrium. It is no objection that to accept this is to destroy conventional Logic, for that is exactly what it is intended to do. I may also mention briefly one line of analysis.
I ask "What is (e.g.) a tree?" The dictionary defines this simple idea by means of many complex ideas; obviously one gets in deeper with every stroke one takes. The same applies to any "Why" that may be posed. The one existing mystery disappears as a consequence of innumerable antecedents, each equally mysterious.
To ask questions is thus evidently worse than a waste of time, so far as one is looking for an answer.
There is also the point that any proposition S is P merely includes P in the connotation of S, and is therefore not really a statement of relation between two things, but an amendment of the definition of one of them. "Some cats are black" only means that our idea of a cat involves the liability to appear black, and that blackness is consistent with those sets of impressions which we recognize as characteristic of cats. All ratiocination may be reduced to syllogistic form; hence, the sole effect of the process is to make each term more complex. Reason does not add to our knowledge; a filing system does not increase one's correspondence directly, though by arranging it one gets a better grasp of one's business. Thus coordination of our impressions should help us to control them; but to allow reason to rule us is as abject as to expect the exactitude of our ledgers to enable us to dispense with initiative on the one hand and actual transactions on the other.

http://64.227.194.192/library/libers/lib_0220c.html

Betrand Russell and Kant also offer a similar posture regarding reason, but your comments regarding the credibility of your (own) writings reek of egocentric arrogance and weak scientific practice.




frater plecticus
yes it did.....can you find me the source for this information..?

QUOTE
10:06 amNYPD aviation unit advises everybody to evacuate the area in thevicinity of Battery Park City and states that, about 15 floors from the top, it is totally glowing red on the inside and collapse was inevitable

frater plecticus
Has the cat got your tongue, Arthur.. or are your handlers getting nervous ?


And the fourth smoking gun, is Arthur or Adoucette himself... a treasonous terrorist "appologist" (sic)


QUOTE
Adoucette, or Arthur or Arthur Doucette

Threads started by Arthur.
http://www.airdisaster.com/forums/search.p...61&pp=25&page=1

FAA, NORAD and 9/11.
http://www.airdisaster.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53044

Notes on radiation, by Arthur Doucette June, 2001.
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:SE4O5...Arthur+Doucette

Climate debate maestro.
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:7bOOQ...Arthur+Doucette

Flight crash expert.
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:bij5n...Arthur+Doucette


GOOGLE FUN
http://www.google.com/search?q=Arthur+Doucette

ARTHUR WORKS FOR CARREKER ANTINORI INC.
14001 N. DALLAS PARKWAY, SUITE 1100 DALLAS TX 75240 USA Phone:
972-458-1981 Fax: 972-701-0758,

http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:bzFbO...r-Antinori,+Inc.

About Carreker-Antinori - Carreker-Antinori, Inc. is a leading provider of integrated consulting and software solutions that enable banks to increase revenue and/or reduce costs, while leveraging institutions’ existing core competencies in order to realize their e-commerce potential. The Company's offerings include revenue enhancement, payment systems, and e-business solutions. The Company's customers include 170 financial institutions in the U.S., Canada, United Kingdom, Ireland and Australia, including 70 of the largest 100 banks in the United States.
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:5zSqY...r-Antinori,+Inc


STATEMENT OF CHANGES IN BENEFICIAL OWNERSHIP
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:DIDXq...r-Antinori,+Inc


And wadda know, you are also part of this mammoth 10 mb list. (INCIDENTALLY FOUND on the UNITED STATES SECURITIES AND EXCHANGE COMMISSION SERVER. I HAD TO "TRANSLATE IT" TO MAKE IT VISIBLE)

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=e...%3D%26client%3D

DOUCETTE ARTHUR:0001061807:


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Adoucette, or Arthur or Arthur Doucette

Threads started by Arthur.
http://www.airdisaster.com/forums/search.p...61&pp=25&page=1

FAA, NORAD and 9/11.
http://www.airdisaster.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53044

Notes on radiation, by Arthur Doucette June, 2001.
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:SE4O5...Arthur+Doucette

Climate debate maestro.
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:7bOOQ...Arthur+Doucette

Flight crash expert.
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:bij5n...Arthur+Doucette


GOOGLE FUN
http://www.google.com/search?q=Arthur+Doucette

ARTHUR WORKS FOR CARREKER ANTINORI INC.
14001 N. DALLAS PARKWAY, SUITE 1100 DALLAS TX 75240 USA Phone:
972-458-1981 Fax: 972-701-0758,

http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:bzFbO...r-Antinori,+Inc.

About Carreker-Antinori - Carreker-Antinori, Inc. is a leading provider of integrated consulting and software solutions that enable banks to increase revenue and/or reduce costs, while leveraging institutions’ existing core competencies in order to realize their e-commerce potential. The Company's offerings include revenue enhancement, payment systems, and e-business solutions. The Company's customers include 170 financial institutions in the U.S., Canada, United Kingdom, Ireland and Australia, including 70 of the largest 100 banks in the United States.
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:5zSqY...r-Antinori,+Inc


STATEMENT OF CHANGES IN BENEFICIAL OWNERSHIP
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:DIDXq...r-Antinori,+Inc


And wadda know, you are also part of this mammoth 10 mb list. (INCIDENTALLY FOUND on the UNITED STATES SECURITIES AND EXCHANGE COMMISSION SERVER. I HAD TO "TRANSLATE IT" TO MAKE IT VISIBLE)

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=e...%3D%26client%3D

DOUCETTE ARTHUR:0001061807:


The "big boys" with big computers. Do you mean companies like "Diebold" whose CEO was a "Pioneer" level campaign funder and staunch supporter of the bush candidacy and re-election efforts?

It's funny that you mention Diebold, because Arthur Doucette (adoucette here) was an officer in my bank Carreker Corp.
And my bank happens to have closed a business alliance with Diebold.
I must add that mr Doucette has always been very faithful to Carreker and Diebold management.[/B]

gordon
QUOTE
10:06 amNYPD aviation unit advises everybody to evacuate the area in thevicinity of Battery Park City and states that, about 15 floors from the top, it is totally glowing red on the inside and collapse was inevitable





So if it was glowing red hot we must assume it was relatively soft. How then was it possible for this small portion of the mass, comprised of thinner cross sections and weakened by thermal energy to crush the remaining much larger and relatively unweakened portion comprised of stronger cross sections?
G
gordon
Yes it did said
“Page 46 and 47 of this report show the inward bowing of the perimeter columns quite well.



You have correctly identified the authors of the NIST report to whom I referred earlier when I said, “That is, at best, an observed output which should not have been artificially emulated without known causation, in any realistic analysis.”


Do you not think it is strange that only NIST have ever postulated that these forces were possible, in direct contradiction to other leading authorities and current engineering knowledge?

G
frater plecticus
yes it did.....can you find me the source for this information..?

QUOTE
10:06 amNYPD aviation unit advises everybody to evacuate the area in thevicinity of Battery Park City and states that, about 15 floors from the top, it is totally glowing red on the inside and collapse was inevitable
metamars
QUOTE
Imagine a steel rod standing on end and gradually place weight on top of it. ...


Thank-you. I will try to pass this onto Professor Jones. I wish, instead of another Loose Change type DVD, somebody would make one geared towards scientists and engineers. Of course, that means the DVD creators would have to start quoting more accurate collapse times....


If you want to have a crack at a hydrodynamic elaboration of Hoffman's dust cloud energetics analysis, don't let me stop you. biggrin.gif
yesitdid
QUOTE (frater plecticus+Dec 30 2005, 10:25 PM)
yes it did.....can you find me the source for this information..?

QUOTE
10:06 amNYPD aviation unit advises everybody to evacuate the area in thevicinity of Battery Park City and states that, about 15 floors from the top, it is totally glowing red on the inside and collapse was inevitable
yesitdid
QUOTE (gordon+Dec 30 2005, 10:50 PM)
Yes it did said
“Page 46 and 47 of this report show the inward bowing of the perimeter columns quite well.



You have correctly identified the authors of the NIST report to whom I referred earlier when I said, “That is, at best, an observed output which should not have been artificially emulated without known causation, in any realistic analysis.”


Do you not think it is strange that only NIST have ever postulated that these forces were possible, in direct contradiction to other leading authorities and current engineering knowledge?

G

The question IS, do the pictures show inward bowing. If one has a theory that says that the columns should bow outward yet the evidence shows the opposite then the theory is incorrect in some way , that is obvious.
yesitdid
QUOTE (gordon+Dec 30 2005, 10:33 PM)
QUOTE
10:06 amNYPD aviation unit advises everybody to evacuate the area in thevicinity of Battery Park City and states that, about 15 floors from the top, it is totally glowing red on the inside and collapse was inevitable





So if it was glowing red hot we must assume it was relatively soft. How then was it possible for this small portion of the mass, comprised of thinner cross sections and weakened by thermal energy to crush the remaining much larger and relatively unweakened portion comprised of stronger cross sections?
G

You might want to think on that one a little more.
gordon
Metamars said,
If you want to have a crack at a hydrodynamic elaboration of Hoffman's dust cloud energetics analysis, don't let me stop you.



Sorry mate, not really my department and it seems like a lot of hard work, though I have read it and did find it interesting. I find an energy balance in terms of the estimable energies associated with collision, fire and collapse to be easier to work out and more easily understood.



Yesitdid said
"If one has a theory that says that the columns should bow outward"


Thermal expansion is not a theory - it is accepted scientific fact, by all it seems, except the authors of the NIST report.

G
steve1957
Fact #1. Fires have never ever caused a steel structure building to collapse.

On 9/11 (3) buildings, which were among the strongest steel frame structure in the world all collapsed within hours.

Fact #2. The firemen reported that the fires were almost out. There was black smoke, but the heat from the flames were out on most of the area.

Fact #3. Much of the steel frame structures disintegrated into shreded metal and fine dust.

Fact #4. Hundreds of firemen, police, news journalists and eyewitnesses on the scene reported bombs going off BEFORE the towers collapsed.

http://www.iwilltryit.com/fireman1.htm

Fact #5. All three WTC buildings collapsed in an almost perfect symetrical path downwards.

Fact #6. None of the buildings tipped over.

Fact #7. All 3 buildings collapsed at FREE FALL SPEED, so that the bottom floors provided NO RESISTANCE. The bottom floors were destroyed BEFORE the upper floors collapsed on them, THIS ALONE PROVES EXPLOSIVES WERE USED.

Fact #8. Larry admitted that they "Pulled building 7", which means they IMPLODED IT.

Now the only way for the liars to deal with these facts are to DENY THEM, or pretend it never happened.
frater plecticus
QUOTE

10:06 amNYPD aviation unit advises everybody to evacuate the area in the vicinity of Battery Park City and states that, about 15 floors from the top, it is totally glowing red on the inside and collapse was inevitable




The north tower, 1 WTC, was struck at 8:46:26 am and collapsed at 10:28:31 am.


2 questions.

1)why was it glowing "totally red" in the middle?

2)why, if 23 minutes before the eventual collapse when it was stated collapse was inevitable , there were people inside the building still, who were still not informed of the imminent danger?
RealityCheck
Hi gordon, metamars!

Not much time (again!). It seems to me that it would be advantageous if both of you did a little reading into 'REAL TIME' CHAOTIC/DYNAMIC processes intead of just doing 'piecemeal' calculations/analyses of 'ISOLATED' IDEAL/STATIC processes. Then perhaps you would see that there were MANY concurrent factors affecting how materials behaved. For example, the vertical columns would have been affected by VIBRATIONAL/OSCILLATIONAL FREQUENCIES (IMPACT/SOUNDWAVES), DIFFERENTIAL HEAT-STRESS DISTORTIONS (fire radiation/combustion-gases) as well as STRUCTURAL-INTERCONNECTIONS (pushing/pulling). All these things were happening and, as in any chaotic dynamical process, some or ALL of these forces would INTERPLAY and COINCIDE as to effects at first ONE LOCATION/STRUCTURE and then ANOTHER LOCATION/STRUCTURE....all the time being 'TRANSIENTLY FOCUSED/INTENSIFIED due to that well-known thing I spoke about earlier: CONSTRUCTIVE INTERFERENCE. This is like the 'beat' phenomenon....where ususully minor SEPARATE 'signals' can ADD CONSTRUCTIVELY at certain 'coincidence points' so as to TRANSIENTLY produce a more EXTREME effect than each weak component factor separately. Imagine the wobbling, vibrating, frequency and heat stress movements/distortions in a chaotic system when all it needs is for AT LEAST MOMENTARILY AND AT RANDOM LOCATIONS, these variously-directed force vectors ACT IN CONCERT to destabilise material structures/geometries so that FOR AN INSTANT they are no longer VIABLE as to their original function...it's called 'failure initiation', and can be irreversible in such conditions of relentless gravity/weight/asymmetrical stesses etc. Both sound and thermal radiation weapons work on the principle of 'focused/intensified' effects at the 'target'...but these are 'on demand', 'sustained' and 'pre-computed....something which chaotic situations don't have...but they DO have TRANSIENT RANDOM effects from same...and that's all that's needed to INITIATE SELF-DESTRUCTION for anything ALREADY STRESSED BY A-SYMMETRIC GRAVITY/IMPACT/HEAT/OSCILLATION ETC FORCES. All of which is why one can initiate collapse of a 'vertical pipe' sample EARLIER and with less DOWN PRESSURE by 'wiggling/vibrating it' while pressing down onto it...this is because the 'stability' of both the 'microstructure' (crystal lattice etc) and the macrostructure (geometry/topology) is 'tipped' so as to provide a 'weak moment' for the downward force to 'amplify/exploit' rather than 'create from scratch'.

Sorry to be so brief/compact...but that's all the time I've got...you'll just have to get hold of some scientific/technical texts to learn the necessary backgound principles/mechanisms involved in such chaotic systems/situations. Oh, metamars, about that 'radiation': in every combustion zone, the 'air is going INTO the combustion while the 'incandescent HOT' COMBUSTION GASES exit that zone and 'cool' off initially through expansion/radiation AND THEN by conduction AND THEN by 'convection/circulation' CONTACT of the STILL EXTREMELY HOT COMBUSTION PRODUCTS with the nearby materials. In other words, the HOT AIR is not the 'air' as such; it is rather the combustion gases...which are of quite different composition.

Ciao guys!

RealityCheck.
.
frater plecticus
The above post is beyond contempt.

How do the vaporized steel and carbonated bodies fit into your conceptual framework, reality check ?
gordon
Reality Check,
And yet with all those chaotic and differential factors the upper section still maintained its path vertically downwards through its axis, which was the path of most resistance and the only path wherein the upper section had to defy unstable equilibrium throughout its movement.
How would you account for this?

G
PhysOrg scientific forums are totally dedicated to science, physics, and technology. Besides topical forums such as nanotechnology, quantum physics, silicon and III-V technology, applied physics, materials, space and others, you can also join our news and publications discussions. We also provide an off-topic forum category. If you need specific help on a scientific problem or have a question related to physics or technology, visit the PhysOrg Forums. Here you’ll find experts from various fields online every day.
To quit out of "lo-fi" mode and return to the regular forums, please click here.