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metamars
QUOTE
(1) INFRA-RED (THERMAL) RADIATION: which at high temperatures is VERY significant for heat/energy transfer from air body to materials nearby (which is why Firemen and people working at foundries near open 'furnaces' ALL wear thick and/or reflective RADIANT HEAT PROOF protective clothing).


Can you give details, preferably with references? Also, I tend to think of intense radiative sources as either things like stars, where the source of energy is not so much fires as nuclear fusion, and also metals which heated up to the point of glowing, and not much else (ignoring heat lamps in restaurants, toasters in kitchens...)

I would have thought that an office building fire throws off such a relatively small amount of energy as radiation, that it's not worth considering (short of exacting computer models).
steve1957
metamars,

For the more mature audiences out there, here's a link to some information that discusses some of the radiation.

http://www.iwilltryit.com/evidencepentagon.htm
Common Sense
QUOTE (Common Sense+Dec 29 2005, 09:54 PM)
QUOTE (Common Sense+Dec 28 2005, 07:56 PM)
QUOTE (Common Sense+Dec 28 2005, 01:38 AM)
Here is the interview which I'm sure you know about...

"I remember getting a [b]call from the Fire Department commander, telling me they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, you know, 'We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is just pull it.' And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse.[/b]"

-Fact which is undisputed by either side, he was talking to the fire commander

-Fact which is undisputed by either side, both are not in the demolition business

"Silverstein's spokesperson, Mr. McQuillan, later clarified:

"In the afternoon of September 11, Mr. Silverstein spoke to the Fire Department Commander on site at Seven World Trade Center. The Commander told Mr. Silverstein that there were several firefighters in the building working to contain the fires. Mr. Silverstein expressed his view that the most important thing was to protect the safety of those firefighters, including, if necessary, to have them withdraw from the building."

He could be lying right? But here is the corroborating evidence...

"They told us to get out of there because they were worried about 7 World Trade Center, which is right behind it, coming down. We were up on the upper floors of the Verizon building looking at it. You could just see the whole bottom corner of the building was gone. We could look right out over to where the Trade Centers were because we were that high up. Looking over the smaller buildings. I just remember it was tremendous, tremendous fires going on. Finally they pulled us out. They said all right, get out of that building because that 7, they were really worried about. They pulled us out of there and then they regrouped everybody on Vesey Street, between the water and West Street. They put everybody back in there. Finally it did come down. From there - this is much later on in the day, because every day we were so worried about that building we didn't really want to get people close. They were trying to limit the amount of people that were in there. Finally it did come down." - Richard Banaciski

http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyreg...ski_Richard.txt

Here is more evidence they pulled the teams out waiting for a normal collapse from fire...

"The most important operational decision to be made that afternoon was the collapse (Of the WTC towers) had damaged 7 World Trade Center, which is about a 50 story building, at Vesey between West Broadway and Washington Street. It had very heavy fire on many floors and I ordered the evacuation of an area sufficient around to protect our members, so we had to give up some rescue operations that were going on at the time and back the people away far enough so that if 7 World Trade did collapse, we [wouldn't] lose any more people. We continued to operate on what we could from that distance and approximately an hour and a half after that order was [given], at 5:30 in the afternoon, World Trade Center collapsed completely" - Daniel Nigro, Chief of Department

http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyreg...igro_Daniel.txt

"Early on, there was concern that 7 World Trade Center might have been both impacted by the collapsing tower and had several fires in it and there was a concern that it might collapse. So we instructed that a collapse area -- (Q. A collapse zone?) -- Yeah -- be set up and maintained so that when the expected collapse of 7 happened, we wouldn't have people working in it. There was considerable discussion with Con Ed regarding the substation in that building and the feeders and the oil coolants and so on. And their concern was of the type of fire we might have when it collapsed." - Chief Cruthers

http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyreg...IC/Cruthers.txt

"Then we found out, I guess around 3:00 [o'clock], that they thought 7 was going to collapse. So, of course, [we've] got guys all in this pile over here and the main concern was get everybody out, and I guess it took us over an hour and a half, two hours to get everybody out of there. (Q. Initially when you were there, you had said you heard a few Maydays?) Oh, yes. We had Maydays like crazy.... The heat must have been tremendous. There was so much [expletive] fire there. This whole pile was burning like crazy. Just the heat and the smoke from all the other buildings on fire, you [couldn't] see anything. So it took us a while and we ended up backing everybody out, and [that's] when 7 collapsed.... Basically, we fell back for 7 to collapse, and then we waited a while and it got a lot more organized, I would guess." - Lieutenant William Ryan

http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyreg...yan_William.txt

What we have for sure...

Silverstein is not a demolition expert and was talking to a fire fighter and not a demolition expert. Why would he use the word "Pull" to describe the demolition to a fire fighter?

Silverstein denies "Pull" means "Controlled demolition". He said it means "Pull" the teams out of the building.

Silverstein did not make the decision to "Pull". (Whatever that means) "they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse"

Another fire fighter used "Pull" to describe the decision made to get him out of the building.

Maybe none of these things by themselves mean anything but together it means there is no case. The person who said "Pull" and started this cascade later clarified. Fireman use the word "Pull" to describe getting out of a building and the person who made the order was not Silverstein according to the same first interview.

It means "PULL" the teams out!

Thank you for using common sense. Have a nice day... smile.gif

I'm going to keep reposting this until it sinks in...

How many times do I have to refutt the obvious lie that Silverstein ordered the building to be brought down?

Remember, Jesus wants you to lie steve. Continue lying so you pass the pearlly gates.
steve1957
"Common Sense"

So let me get this straight. You think the bible is a fairy tale, but you believe in UFO's
user posted image

You don't believe in the laws of physics, but prefer to think some magician in a cave was able to lull our trillion dollar defense system into sleep so he could miraculously cause airplanes to bring the towers down, even though it was physically impossible
user posted image

And you think that OJ Simpson was innocent

user posted image

Do you still believe that Clinton was telling the truth when he said he never had sex with Monica Lewinsky, because the word "Is" means something other than what most people thought?
user posted image

You know something, you gotta be very careful, because your a salesmans dream. Want to buy the brooklyn Bridge?

user posted image

I used to be a stock broker many years ago and we used to call people like you EASY MARKS. Of course I don't endorse or support people selling scammy investments, but if I did, boy oh boy, you'd be high on the list.

I suggest you lock up whatever money's you have in a safe place and don't let any sales man trick you into buying their junk, because it sounds like you'd FALL for just about anything, accept of course the truth.
Common Sense
There were a lot of first for the WTC. In all the history of high-rise fires, not one has ever been hit with a plane traveling 500 miles an hour and had it's fire proofing removed from it's trusses. In all the history of high-rise fires, not one has ever had 1/4th to 1/3rd of it's steel beams which hold lateral load sheared off by a 757. In all the history of high-rise fires, not one has ever been a building which had 1/4 to 1/3rd of it's vertical load bearing beams in it's core removed by an airliner. For Building 7, in all the history of high-rise fires, not one has ever been been left for 6-7 hours in the bottom floors. Not the Madrid or Windsor tower fires had almost 40 stories of load on it's supports after being hit by another building which left a 18 story gash. Both lost I-beams from the heat. Windsors centeral core was steel reinforced concrete. In all the history of high-rise fires, not one has ever been without some fire fighters fighting the fires. In all the history of high-rise fires, not one has ever lost a portion of load bearing from the impact of another building while fires raging and lowering the load specs of all the bottom floor supports.

I could go on with the "Firsts" but you get the drift. The statment is deceptive because it purposely doesn't take those factors into account.
Common Sense
Well, Steve's trying to be funny! At least get your facts straight. It's funnier that way. Reality is always more funny than BS. For instance, It's YOU who believe in an entity which killed it's son to prove it's love to you. Don't forget to kill your son to prove your love to your daughter. Heh!

user posted image

QUOTE
And you think that OJ Simpson was innocent


There you go lying again. I said he was framed. Learn reading comprehension. It's your friend. A lying sack of shait like you should have no problem getting into heaven right. Heh!

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
And you think that OJ Simpson was innocent


There you go lying again. I said he was framed. Learn reading comprehension. It's your friend. A lying sack of shait like you should have no problem getting into heaven right. Heh!

Do you still believe that Clinton was telling the truth when he said he never had sex with Monica Lewinsky, because the word "Is" means something other than what most people thought?


No, he lied. You see there was something you don't have in your 9/11 conspiracy... EVIDENCE

QUOTE
"You know something, you gotta be very careful, because your a salesmans dream. Want to buy the brooklyn Bridge?"


I bet you think people who stop this from growing ..

user posted image

should be put in jail. And anyone who combs their hair is commiting mass murder. Heh!

I'm not the one quoting ONE web site like they are the word of God. I'm not the one posting the same web site over and over again. YOU ARE. You believe Bush is God. You believe he can perform miracles like involving the largest group of conspirators in the nations history in the largest mass murder in the nations history. Heh! That morons stupidity is eclipsed only by your! HAHAHA
Guest
QUOTE (steve1957+Dec 29 2005, 11:24 PM)
"Common Sense"

So let me get this straight. You think the bible is a fairy tale, but you believe in UFO's 
user posted image

You don't believe in the laws of physics, but prefer to think some magician in a cave was able to lull our trillion dollar defense system into sleep so he could miraculously cause airplanes to bring the towers down, even though it was physically impossible
user posted image

And you think that OJ Simpson was innocent

user posted image

Do you still believe that Clinton was telling the truth when he said he never had sex with Monica Lewinsky, because the word "Is" means something other than what most people thought?
user posted image

You know something, you gotta be very careful, because your a salesmans dream. Want to buy the brooklyn Bridge?

user posted image

I used to be a stock broker many years ago and we used to call people like you EASY MARKS. Of course I don't endorse or support people selling scammy investments, but if I did, boy oh boy, you'd be high on the list.

I suggest you lock up whatever money's you have in a safe place and don't let any sales man trick you into buying their junk, because it sounds like you'd FALL for just about anything, accept of course the truth.

??YOU WERE A STOCKBROKER???? And stockbrokers use SHILLS all the time for scamming their marks!!!! That explains it!!!! You were stupid and dishonest for a living! And your clients sussed you out and you lost your stockbroking licence! And now your reduced to employment as a SHILL for conspiracy theory sites who sell "the truth" to suckers! WOW!!! How stupid can you be? Actually admitting to every body you were a SHEISTER for a living!! Once a scheister always a scheister steve!! NOW WE KNOW.

Common Sense
Actually, hes more a shill for Rove. This plays into the "All liberals are stupid" theme. But this liberal isn't stupid. Peddle your wares somewhere else Rove.
Common Sense
QUOTE (gordon+Dec 29 2005, 11:00 PM)
If you had used the term storey instead of floor I could agree with you when you say  "ALL the floors above it fell on the strongest floor left."  But if you do mean floors then I disagree, for the reason that the upper section would not fit inside the lower section.
So if the core was compromised prior to collapse initiation, how was this done? In what areas and to what extent?  Clearly it was not a result of collapse if it happened prior to initiation.
Aircraft collision damage would be limited to the close area around impact, and would not extend far into the lower section
I would also ask, again, how it was possible for this "thin slab of concrete held in place by a few trusses with two bolts on either end" to exert a pulling force sufficient to deflect the outer columns by 55" as postulated in the NIST report?  And also as you postulate rip apart the core columns?
Surely these two 1" bolts even in double shear would fail if subject to such a load, especially when it can be argued that they would have been at a higher temperature than the perimeter columns, and certainly those affixed to the core would be in the highest temperature zone.
How also was it possible for the floors to exert an inward pulling force on the walls and an outward pulling force on the core columns contrary to what would be expected.
Also if the antennae fell indicating a failure of the core at some point,( the area of aircraft damage?) caused by the force transmitted through the floor beams, then this would have immediately relieved the force and it would not then be present to cause distortion and failure of the perimeter columns.  It was, after all, this force which NIST identified as a crucial part of collapse initiation.


Metamars, I tried to respond to your points on heat transfer but after writing it, I lost it somewhere in the ether.  I'll get back to you shortly, probably tomorrow.

G

If the upper floor bows it pulls both the outer beams and inner beams toward the floor. Now the beams that are left from the impact are pulled wider than the beams below it. Being made of STRIPS of beams and not one solid steel wall, the beams need only to move far enough out of the way to let the beams above slide around the beams below it. The beams above and intact have the full wieght of all the "Stories" above it connected to it. Everything above rips apart everything below. In other words the beams above are no longer square with the beams below.

user posted image user posted image

user posted image

Note I use bias web sites. wink.gif That or www.construction.com is also in on the conspiracy...
Foxx
QUOTE
Originally posted by Steve1957
Hey Foxx,

I wonder if the nitwits are accusing us of being the same person because that's what they do themselves???

It's almost funny some of things they believe.


Ask Schneibster.

I think he called it by it's psychological term... 'PROJECTION'.

Essentially the old Dr. Jekyl / Mr. Hyde 'magic trick' updated with new technology... (internet forums) biggrin.gif

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Originally posted by Steve1957
Hey Foxx,

I wonder if the nitwits are accusing us of being the same person because that's what they do themselves???

It's almost funny some of things they believe.


Ask Schneibster.

I think he called it by it's psychological term... 'PROJECTION'.

Essentially the old Dr. Jekyl / Mr. Hyde 'magic trick' updated with new technology... (internet forums) biggrin.gif

Originally posted by Yesitdid / Jaydeehess / etc... etc...
Actually I was being sarcastic.
It is Foxx and others who continually accuse others of being multiple posting personalities.


Ehhh ??? When have I ever done such a thing!! ?biggrin.gif??

I have nothing against using multiple usernames for use in multiple forums, (such as the way you change your username from one site to another). It doesn't matter to me because I recognize 'you' by the context of your posts, no matter what you call yourself.

Now whether you are posting under 'Jaydeehess' on one site and YID on another, is no concern of mine.

I don't currently believe that you have ulterior motives for such a change of user-name from one site to another.

It doesn't matter to me anyway because I would recognize 'you' from your posting style...

(not to mention your un-ending sophisms worded in a particular way)... (Sigh...)... that 'you' are 'you'.

However, I do have to really question the motives of those who 'pretend' to be numerous persons (on one site). Think about it.

What psychological (or other) 'need' propels a person to engage in such behaviour?

A while back, I think it was Adoucette who visited another forum and found two 'fox'es.

Obviously, I can't control whether some one else chooses a common name like fox (or 'Guest'), or some semantic derivitive of such.

Anyone could see the posting style, linquistics, punctuation, spelling, and viewpoints of the 2 'foxes' ...fox & Foxx were two different people?

Even you saw that.

Now here's an education... watch Schneibsters 'tactics', and ask yourself... Why does he DO the things he does?

Do you recognize Truth there?

Here... wait a second!

Where's that court transcipt? biggrin.gif


Mel, bring 'er up again. I forgot to cache it biggrin.gif
steve1957
Common Sense or should I say Anti-common sense.

I don't have anything against children, in fact I love my kids and grandkids very much, so I don't want to be too hard on you for being such a child, I'm just hoping that you put away all that lying and try to be honest.

It's most likely that your UFO theories derived from watching too much tele-tubbies
user posted image

After all they came from another planet, and for an undeveloped mind that might have pushed you over the edge in reaching your conclusions about outer space beings. So I understand. My grandson used to watch them all the time when he was about 2 years old, but now that he's 9, he's moved on into more advanced realizations about how reality works.

I'm sure it must be hard for you to come out of your protective shell of fantasies because the real world has a lot of nasty evil things about it.

And of course you would reject the bible because there's far too much truth, that your little mind just can't quite accept it. You see the bible discusses what happens in the REAL WORLD. Things susch as wars, murders, crooks and liars, false preachers and all kinds of rotten things, but being the truth it also discusses the good things in this world, even though it seems few and far between there are still many good things in our lives.

There is still some love, truth and justice, even though most people in the government are corrupt murderers, there are still a few people, (a remnant) that seeks after truth and justice.

But try as you may the sad reality is that bad things happen, real bad, rotten evil things exist in this world, such as the war in Iraq.

user posted image
user posted image
user posted image

These are the types of things that you are supporting, but because you keep your head in the sand you think it'll all go away.

I'm sure that you feel much more comfortable hoping into your fantasy world of make believe heros and villians, where the US are the good guys and the Muslims are the bad guys, because dealing with reality is just too painful for your little mind to accept right now.

And that's why you make all these feeble attempts to try and support your rediculous claims about the magician in the cave doing 9/11
user posted image
user posted image

Yes, it's so much easier to believe that Osama did it, rather than face up to the fact that we have extremely corrupt people right here in the good old USA

user posted image

They say ignorance is bliss, but I don't really know for sure whether that is a true statement or not, so I'll ask you because you are an expert in that department.

Notice how I need to use a lot of pictures and graphics? I don't mind talking rationally and logically and having meaningful discussions with people, but when you communicate with halfwits you need as much visual aid as you can get.

As far as discussing the physics involved with 9/11 IT'S A BIG JOKE. Because nobody in their right mind needs any more proof.

They ask foolish questions, pretending to be interested in heat and gravity, etc., but in reality they have no interest in the truth, they're just trying to defend their leader and so they pretend to speak with intelligence in hopes of convincing other ignoramouses that they are correct.

In truth if anybody wants to do some serious investigation they can go to this website... http://www.iwilltryit.com/menu.htm and get ALL THE INFORMATION THEY NEED.

If anybody has a problem with that website is has nothing to do with me or the information, it's the truth that they have a problem with and as I discussed up above it's because the truth threatens to destroy their fantasy world.

But let me ask you just one more question. Don't you think it's time for you to grow up and put away all the baby games? Yeah, teletubbies and sponge bob was great for a while, but haven't you outgrown them yet. My 9 year old grandson had a great time watching them when he was much younger, buthe's moved on to bigger and better things, isn't it time for you to do the same???

Common Sense
"I have nothing against using multiple usernames for use in multiple forums"

I don't either. I also don't have anything against someone thinking I'm someone else. Especially someone who's right. I'll just continue to play the same games you do. wink.gif OK Steve? Maybe all those unanswered questions I posted will just go away right? Like why are those web sites which call themselves "Truth seekers" leave so much out of fireman's statements. And why after showing you the truth behind them you continue to lie.

All I know is a person who uses a name "Foxx" shouldn't be thinking to much about what names mean. We may start to analyze that one. Heh!

But the character assassination in lieu of intelligent discourse is more telling than your name. You have nothing.

I at least stick some fact in with my brevity. smile.gif

"It's most likely that your UFO theories derived from watching too much tele-tubbies"

Yep, lying again. This is the main reason I'm not religious. You're all full of shait. The bible says lying is a sin and you make it a carrier. A freakin stockbroker no less! Heh! Yeah, I'm sure your not working for Rove now... RIIIGHT... You really want your taxes to go up... Yeah, no problem, I buy that... blink.gif You know I brought that quote up as sarcasm yet you continue to lie about it. You hope some fool like you reads your post and thinks I believe in UFOs. Well better than thinking the dumbest president in the world contrived an elaborate plain involving everyone and their mother. Lets review shall we?

-The NYC Fire fighters who know more about building collapses than most if not all of you. It's their LIFE to know. Literally! Yet they don't call for an investigation into the MASS MURDER of over 300 of their brothers... Why? Because the liberal NYC firefighters just LOOVES BUSH. They would gladly give their lives for him. Bush is Jesus... (The twisting of these peoples statements for donations and DVD sales sickens me.)

-The NYC Police department who lost over 20 lives. They didn't ask for an investigation. They died for a good cause... Bush is Jesus...

-All the people in the pentagon don't want an investigation. Many who are liberal and centrist would gladly have a 757/missile (Heh!) rammed up their *** for Bush. They did or said nothing while people supposedly truck in airplane parts to cover the crime. Remember, Bush is Jesus.

-The more than 1,600 widows and widowers of 9/11 who rather have investigations of the decisions which lead to the terrorist getting away with this. They don't want to waste time investigating the mass murder of their loved ones. These people have a track record of helping Bush don't they. Why? Well isn't Bush Jesus?

-The media (This one I almost believe) who doesn't follow up on the biggest mass murder and conspiracy in American history. It seems no one want a Nobel prize for journalism. Can't say anything bad about Jesus!

-Popular Mechanics who debunked these sites is also helping Bush commit the biggest mass murder in history. I hear they're changing the name to "Popular Bible" so they can preach the word of Bush.

-Everyone in the NIST who think Bush is so cool they would cover up something this huge for him. Like the largest mass murder in US history.

-EVERY STRUCTUAL ENGINEER IN THE WORLD who doesn't write a paper for a mainstream peer reviewed journal saying the towers were brought down. If you laymen can prove things just by looking at videos and reading interviews out of context then all those structural engineers MUST be working for Bush right?

I'm telling you, Bush is JESUS!

Keep sucking on Roves tit.

Thank you for using common sense, have a nice day
adoucette
If anyone is curious as to WHO Steve supports:

See: http://www.iwilltryit.com/iraq1.htm

What he's peddling:

http://www.nttsuperplus.com/Dhea_SuperPlus.htm

and

http://www.iwilltryit.com/dvd.htm

Which is why damn near EVERY ONE OF HIS POSTS direct you to his site.

The money goes to:

Networking Thru Television Inc

Arthur
Common Sense
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 30 2005, 01:36 AM)
If anyone is curious as to WHO Steve supports:

See: http://www.iwilltryit.com/iraq1.htm

What he's peddling:

http://www.nttsuperplus.com/Dhea_SuperPlus.htm

and

http://www.iwilltryit.com/dvd.htm

Which is why damn near EVERY ONE OF HIS POSTS direct you to his site.

The money goes to:

Networking Thru Television Inc

Arthur

super-plus@cox.net, sounds like another Jeff Gannon to me. HEHEHEHE
Common Sense
HAHAHA You found steve out! Nice detective work. a_ht worked for the NIST and Steve is selling 9/11 conspiracy videos! What a RIOT! user posted image
Foxx
user posted image

OK.... Looks like a swastika to me (from an aerial POV).

It is quite obvious that 'some' here have never even-so-much as looked at architectural blueprints.

If you have never had the occasion to see a valid set of building blueprints, let me assure you they ALL include what is called the 'Plan View'... (sometimes referred to as a 'Top View').

This view is scaled to proper dimensions so as to create a schematic drawing of a 'birds-eye' OR 'aerial view'.

NO architect or Engineer (having access to such blueprints) could ever escape the obvious symbolism of the plan view.

Adoucette... exactly WHO are you trying to hornswoggle with your ...

"Duh...just a bunch of L-shaped buildings put together"... BS ???

Man, you are starting to sound an awful like the YID! biggrin.gif

Who do you 'Think' is going to buy such bridges ???

biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

On the other hand, I do find it 'odd' that ANY engineers would miss such a point, which causes me to question...

Is the photo REAL ??? Is it a REAL building ??? IF so... can you post a link to the google map page where such a building can be found?

Thanks

Edited to Add --- Mind you, the 'Swastika' is not (of itself) a symbol of EVIL.

The Hopi (and other 'First Nations' peoples) had utilized this symbol for thousands of years (prior to Hitlers 'grab' on it - and turning the symbol into 'evil'.)

An 'Innocent' view of the above picture could be that the building was related to First Nations peoples.

What offices does the alleged building house?





Common Sense
QUOTE (Foxx+Dec 30 2005, 01:56 AM)
user posted image

OK.... Looks like a swastika to me (from an aerial POV).

It is quite obvious that 'some' here have never even-so-much as looked at architectural blueprints.

If you have never had the occasion to see a valid set of building blueprints, let me assure you they ALL include what is called the 'Plan View'... (sometimes referred to as a 'Top View').

This view is scaled to proper dimensions so as to create a schematic drawing of a 'birds-eye' OR 'aerial view'.

NO architect or Engineer (having access to such blueprints) could ever escape the obvious symbolism of the plan view.

Adoucette... exactly WHO are you trying to hornswoggle with your ...

"Duh...just a bunch of L-shaped buildings put together"... BS ???

Man, you are starting to sound an awful like the YID! biggrin.gif

Who do you 'Think' is going to buy such bridges ???

biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

On the other hand, I do find it 'odd' that ANY engineers would miss such a point, which causes me to question...

Is the photo REAL ??? Is it a REAL building ??? IF so... can you post a link to the google map page where such a building can be found?

Thanks

An architect :BIRDS EYE VIEW is usually limited to EACH BUILDING. The drawing of all the buildings together is usually at street level. Models are usually on tables. But maybe the architect didn't care what some bird brain would think. Maybe he had the drawings made up before he realized it and thought it wasn't worth the cost to change it. Then again maybe the architect is a card carrying KKK member. What does that have to do with the price of cement?
steve1957
Common Sense,

Yeah, Great detective work. Brilliant, seeings how I'm about as out in the open as you can be.

The great thing is when you have nothing to hide you don't mind when people discover who you are.

Now on the other hand, if I was doing something dirty and in secret I'd try to hide it.

But lets get real here, regarding the DVD. People can copy them right off our site for free, we encourage it. But because it takes a long time we offer them the ability to get a DVD for real cheap already put together.

http://www.iwilltryit.com/

You see my boy there's nothing wrong with making money, even a ton of it, as long as it's an honest service or product and a win/win situation.

If Bill Gates makes another $50 billion this year I'd have no problem at all, as long as the product provides value for the money paid then there shouldn't be a problem.

No your government on the other hand, is using fraud and deceit, spending tax payers money on bombs and propoganda to justify murdering more people. It's not just the hundreds of billions they're stealing, but all the murders and lies they're doing along the way.

Oh, did you want to talk about my product Super-Plus? Please do, it's awesome, but I don't want to cram it down peoples throats. Because it's such an awesome and beneficial product I will most definately make it available.

In fact they can go direct to http://nttsuperplus.com/ for more information.

Thanks for the reminder, I didn't want to bring it up on this board, but since you were so interested I thought I'd better help you out.
steve1957
adoucette,

Thanks for posting http://www.iwilltryit.com/iraq1.htm, it's a great video and more people should se it, at least the grown ups.
Foxx
QUOTE (steve1957+Dec 30 2005, 02:09 AM)
Common Sense,

Yeah, Great detective work. Brilliant, seeings how I'm about as out in the open as you can be.

The great thing is when you have nothing to hide you don't mind when people discover who you are.

Now on the other hand, if I was doing something dirty and in secret I'd try to hide it.

But lets get real here, regarding the DVD. People can copy them right off our site for free, we encourage it. But because it takes a long time we offer them the ability to get a DVD for real cheap already put together.

http://www.iwilltryit.com/

You see my boy there's nothing wrong with making money, even a ton of it, as long as it's an honest service or product and a win/win situation.

If Bill Gates makes another $50 billion this year I'd have no problem at all, as long as the product provides value for the money paid then there shouldn't be a problem.

No your government on the other hand, is using fraud and deceit, spending tax payers money on bombs and propoganda to justify murdering more people. It's not just the hundreds of billions they're stealing, but all the murders and lies they're doing along the way.

Oh, did you want to talk about my product Super-Plus? Please do, it's awesome, but I don't want to cram it down peoples throats. Because it's such an awesome and beneficial product I will most definately make it available.

In fact they can go direct to http://nttsuperplus.com/ for more information.

Thanks for the reminder, I didn't want to bring it up on this board, but since you were so interested I thought I'd better help you out.

Steve1957...

On the other hand, I do find it 'odd' that ANY engineers would miss such a point, which causes me to question...

Is the photo REAL ??? Is it a REAL building ??? IF so... can you post a link to the google map page where such a building can be found?

Thanks

Edited to Add --- Mind you, the 'Swastika' is not (of itself) a symbol of EVIL.

The Hopi (and other 'First Nations' peoples) had utilized this symbol for thousands of years (prior to Hitlers 'grab' on it - and turning the symbol into 'evil'.)

An 'Innocent' view of the above picture could be that the building was related to First Nations peoples.

What offices does the alleged building house?



billybats
Yeh, L-shaped buildings my arse blink.gif

Statements like that really don't help your credibility. Anyhow, it appears to be part of US naval base in San Diego:

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=32.676108,-...n=0,0&t=k&hl=en
adoucette
QUOTE (Common Sense+Dec 30 2005, 01:47 AM)
HAHAHA You found steve out! Nice detective work. a_ht worked for the NIST and Steve is selling 9/11 conspiracy videos! What a RIOT! user posted image

Here is his (and his wife Debbie) letter to http://www.aljazeerah.info/

Saddam is not defiant


In court today Saddam wasn’t worried about his own skin, he made it very clear that this is a testing by God, for all of us.
Saddam’s main issue to the judge wasn’t so much about what would happen to him personally, but whether or not the judge was following the law or doing the dirty deeds of the occupiers, because Saddam knows the real judge is God Almighty, and he knows that man is not God.
It was also very clear that Saddam has had many conversations with God, and is very comforted by the Holy Spirit.
If you had read the scriptures instead of making fun of them you would have known that Saddam is God’s servant and is in this situation for God’s purposes, not because of the crimes some American’s say he committed, but to test the minds and hearts of the people in Iraq, America and in the rest of the world.
Bush says, “We will win the hearts and minds of the people”, but in truth “All souls are mine sayeth the Lord”. And no matter how many people Bush, Kerry, Nader and their supporters kill, lie to or rob, they cannot win peoples souls.
Just as God told Satan, that he could persecute Job, as much as he liked, God also made it very clear that he could not touch his person, (his soul). The only thing that Bush/Kerry/Nader followers may be able to achieve is mass murder, deception, black gold and a ton of other stolen treasures, but in the end God gets the real victory. That’s why Saddam is not worried, he’s walking with God.
If you think voting for Kerry or Nader will make a difference, think again because Kerry also supports the war, and everybody knows that Nader is helping Bush by staying in the race. In fact Kerry is gonna ask other countries nicely to send in more troops and more money. $416 Billion plus! is not enough.
If I were you, I’d be on my knees, asking God for forgiveness for following after the works of the devil by supporting more murder and mayhem. The Iraqi people didn’t trespass against America, but we went over there and slaughtered many thousands of innocent people, theirs and ours. Shame of face belongs to you.
Repent! Because whatever you do to the least of God’s children you do to Him.


Your 2 witnesses

Stephen and Deborah Gliksman, USA

(Bondservants of the Lord Jesus Christ) Amen! Amen means it’s true

Foxx
QUOTE (Common Sense+Dec 30 2005, 02:06 AM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Dec 30 2005, 01:56 AM)
user posted image

OK.... Looks like a swastika to me (from an aerial POV).

It is quite obvious that 'some' here have never even-so-much as looked at architectural blueprints.

If you have never had the occasion to see a valid set of building blueprints, let me assure you they ALL include what is called the 'Plan View'... (sometimes referred to as a 'Top View').

This view is scaled to proper dimensions so as to create a schematic drawing of a 'birds-eye' OR 'aerial view'.

NO architect or Engineer (having access to such blueprints) could ever escape the obvious symbolism of the plan view.

Adoucette... exactly WHO are you trying to hornswoggle with your ...

"Duh...just a bunch of L-shaped buildings put together"... BS ???

Man, you are starting to sound an awful like the YID! biggrin.gif

Who do you 'Think' is going to buy such bridges ???

biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

On the other hand, I do find it 'odd' that ANY engineers would miss such a point, which causes me to question...

Is the photo REAL ??? Is it a REAL building ??? IF so... can you post a link to the google map page where such a building can be found?

Thanks

An architect :BIRDS EYE VIEW is usually limited to EACH BUILDING. The drawing of all the buildings together is usually at street level. Models are usually on tables. But maybe the architect didn't care what some bird brain would think. Maybe he had the drawings made up before he realized it and thought it wasn't worth the cost to change it. Then again maybe the architect is a card carrying KKK member. What does that have to do with the price of cement?

QUOTE
by Schneibster
An architect :BIRDS EYE VIEW is usually limited to EACH BUILDING. The drawing of all the buildings together is usually at street level. Models are usually on tables. But maybe the architect didn't care what some bird brain would think.


The 'overview' will always be on the first page of the 'Plan View' drawings.

This will show the entire construction to be built.

Idiot Quote: "The drawing of all the buildings together is usually at street level."

Ehhhh ??? Why continue to make yourself look like an idiot to those who read blueprints all the time?

yeah... the side elevation will contain an artists rendering of the aesthetic 'street view'.

NOW... flip the page and let's get onto the engineering and structural details.

Maybe you stopped before turning the page to investigate further ?


Schneibster - stick to what you're good at... Obfuscation !

Please don't post obvious BS (your proposed 'understanding of engineering') like you are doing above.


Thanks biggrin.gif





Common Sense
QUOTE (steve1957+Dec 30 2005, 02:09 AM)
Common Sense,

Yeah, Great detective work. Brilliant, seeings how I'm about as out in the open as you can be.

The great thing is when you have nothing to hide you don't mind when people discover who you are.

Now on the other hand, if I was doing something dirty and in secret I'd try to hide it.

But lets get real here, regarding the DVD. People can copy them right off our site for free, we encourage it. But because it takes a long time we offer them the ability to get a DVD for real cheap already put together.

http://www.iwilltryit.com/

You see my boy there's nothing wrong with making money, even a ton of it, as long as it's an honest service or product and a win/win situation.

If Bill Gates makes another $50 billion this year I'd have no problem at all, as long as the product provides value for the money paid then there shouldn't be a problem.

No your government on the other hand, is using fraud and deceit, spending tax payers money on bombs and propoganda to justify murdering more people. It's not just the hundreds of billions they're stealing, but all the murders and lies they're doing along the way.

Oh, did you want to talk about my product Super-Plus? Please do, it's awesome, but I don't want to cram it down peoples throats. Because it's such an awesome and beneficial product I will most definately make it available.

In fact they can go direct to http://nttsuperplus.com/ for more information.

Thanks for the reminder, I didn't want to bring it up on this board, but since you were so interested I thought I'd better help you out.

"Now on the other hand, if I was doing something dirty and in secret I'd try to hide it."

Now that's not what Mel said about a_ht. Sorry, according to him (Or you) you're a shill. Because he was honest about who he was yet he was given no credit for doing so.

Sorry, you're a SHILL! Have you no SHAME! rolleyes.gif
adoucette
QUOTE (billybats+Dec 30 2005, 02:20 AM)
Yeh, L-shaped buildings my arse blink.gif

Statements like that really don't help your credibility. Anyhow, it appears to be part of US naval base in San Diego:

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=32.676108,-...n=0,0&t=k&hl=en

Get a grip.

Yes, L shaped buildings, which is exactly what they are, creating nice greenspace between each building and a central courtyard.

Not EVERYONE thinks of such symbolism.

If you'll notice, the NE & SW buildings are set out from the center more than the NW and SE buildings.

Now if he was after a TRUE swastika, you'd think he'd have lined them up proper, and wouldn't have put all those "indentions" in them either, you know, sorta spoils the line.

Sheesh.

Arthur

Common Sense
QUOTE (Foxx+Dec 30 2005, 02:35 AM)
QUOTE (Common Sense+Dec 30 2005, 02:06 AM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Dec 30 2005, 01:56 AM)
user posted image

OK.... Looks like a swastika to me (from an aerial POV).

It is quite obvious that 'some' here have never even-so-much as looked at architectural blueprints.

If you have never had the occasion to see a valid set of building blueprints, let me assure you they ALL include what is called the 'Plan View'... (sometimes referred to as a 'Top View').

This view is scaled to proper dimensions so as to create a schematic drawing of a 'birds-eye' OR 'aerial view'.

NO architect or Engineer (having access to such blueprints) could ever escape the obvious symbolism of the plan view.

Adoucette... exactly WHO are you trying to hornswoggle with your ...

"Duh...just a bunch of L-shaped buildings put together"... BS ???

Man, you are starting to sound an awful like the YID! biggrin.gif

Who do you 'Think' is going to buy such bridges ???

biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

On the other hand, I do find it 'odd' that ANY engineers would miss such a point, which causes me to question...

Is the photo REAL ??? Is it a REAL building ??? IF so... can you post a link to the google map page where such a building can be found?

Thanks

An architect :BIRDS EYE VIEW is usually limited to EACH BUILDING. The drawing of all the buildings together is usually at street level. Models are usually on tables. But maybe the architect didn't care what some bird brain would think. Maybe he had the drawings made up before he realized it and thought it wasn't worth the cost to change it. Then again maybe the architect is a card carrying KKK member. What does that have to do with the price of cement?

QUOTE
by Schneibster
An architect :BIRDS EYE VIEW is usually limited to EACH BUILDING. The drawing of all the buildings together is usually at street level. Models are usually on tables. But maybe the architect didn't care what some bird brain would think.


The 'overview' will always be on the first page of the 'Plan View' drawings.

This will show the entire construction to be built.

Idiot Quote: "The drawing of all the buildings together is usually at street level."

Ehhhh ??? Why continue to make yourself look like an idiot to those who read blueprints all the time?

yeah... the side elevation will contain an artists rendering of the aesthetic 'street view'.

NOW... flip the page and let's get onto the engineering and structural details.

Maybe you stopped before turning the page to investigate further ?


Schneibster - stick to what you're good at... Obfuscation !

Please don't post obvious BS (your proposed 'understanding of engineering') like you are doing above.


Thanks biggrin.gif

What the hell do you know about structual engineering. You haven't posted you're peer reviewed study showing the towers were blown up yet. Until you do I take it you talk out of your arus.

That's for the next DVD. US Government is controlled by Nazi's!

"They are I'm telling you Just look at the picture!!!" - Steve "super-plus@cox" Guckert Gliksman
yesitdid
QUOTE (steve1957+Dec 29 2005, 09:39 PM)
yesdidit,

And one more thing about the bible. It's sad that you have such a hatred of the truth and bury your head in the sand and chose to live in denial concerning the wealth of information found in the bible.

It's true that all too many false preachers and scumbags have perverted the real meaning of the scriptures, because the depth of the truth can answer more questions than you can imagine.

Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it"?


Oh I don't really give a rat's *** if you wish to believe that the words written down by men 2000 to 10,000 years ago are the literal word of an alimighty creator.

What I object to is your attempting to use this unsubstatiated belief in a physics forum to push your own agenda of hatred towards the gov't. If you and your gun-butt buddies in the compound in Oregon want a revolution so much you dream about it night and day so be it.

Now would you care to again attempt actual science in this thread or will the bible quotes keep bolstering(sarcasm) your arguements?
adoucette
Steve:

Is this you as well? (ps don't lie, you KNOW I have my sources)

People v. Gliksman (1978) 78 CA3d 343

[Crim. 9303 Fourth Dist, Div Two Mar., 7, 1978]

THE PEOPLE, Plaintiff and Respondent, v. STEPHEN JOSEPH GLIKSMAN, Defendant and Appellant.

Opinion by Morris, J., with Gardner, P. J., and McDaniel, J., concurring.

OPINION

MORRIS, J.

Defendant, Stephen Gliksman, appeals from a judgment of conviction of two counts of receiving or offering to receive a bribe by a witness (Pen. Code, § 138).

In February of 1974, defendant and his girl friend, Deborah Rayner, were involved in an accident. Deborah, who was injured in the accident, and her mother, Mrs. Rayner, brought a personal injury action against persons allegedly responsible for the accident.

Viewing the evidence in a light most favorable to the judgment, it shows that in July 1976, defendant telephoned Mrs. Rayner and later her attorney, Mr. Thomason, several times to talk about being paid a sum of money (initially $10,000, later $20,000 and finally $25,000) for his testimony, which, if favorable, could increase recovery in the personal injury suit by half a million dollars. Thomason contacted the district attorney's office, which arranged to have some of the conversations recorded. As a result of his communications with Mrs. Rayner and Thomason, defendant came to Thomason's office where he signed a written statement and was given $25,000. He was arrested as he was putting the money in his jacket.

I mean, since we are being OPEN.

Arthur

Common Sense
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 30 2005, 02:57 AM)
Steve:

Is this you as well? (ps don't lie, you KNOW I have my sources)

People v. Gliksman (1978) 78 CA3d 343

[Crim. 9303 Fourth Dist, Div Two Mar., 7, 1978]

THE PEOPLE, Plaintiff and Respondent, v. STEPHEN JOSEPH GLIKSMAN, Defendant and Appellant.

Opinion by Morris, J., with Gardner, P. J., and McDaniel, J., concurring.

OPINION

MORRIS, J.

Defendant, Stephen Gliksman, appeals from a judgment of conviction of two counts of receiving or offering to receive a bribe by a witness (Pen. Code, § 138).

In February of 1974, defendant and his girl friend, Deborah Rayner, were involved in an accident. Deborah, who was injured in the accident, and her mother, Mrs. Rayner, brought a personal injury action against persons allegedly responsible for the accident.

Viewing the evidence in a light most favorable to the judgment, it shows that in July 1976, defendant telephoned Mrs. Rayner and later her attorney, Mr. Thomason, several times to talk about being paid a sum of money (initially $10,000, later $20,000 and finally $25,000) for his testimony, which, if favorable, could increase recovery in the personal injury suit by half a million dollars. Thomason contacted the district attorney's office, which arranged to have some of the conversations recorded. As a result of his communications with Mrs. Rayner and Thomason, defendant came to Thomason's office where he signed a written statement and was given $25,000. He was arrested as he was putting the money in his jacket.

I mean, since we are being OPEN.

Arthur

Let me guess, he went to jail where he found the lord! HAHAHAHA!

No wonder he hates the government. They put his a$$ in JAIL!!! user posted image
adoucette
Back to the issue,

looking at those pictures posted by BillyBats

Such as this one:

user posted image

or this one

user posted image

How do the CT "believers" square this with their FREQUENT statements that

"The Towers Fell with NO RESISTANCE"

Curious, since one would think that twisting those metal pieces would generate a wee bit of resistance.

Arthur
Common Sense
You wanna see how stupid he is? Steve had everyone from his wedding give testimonials about his snake oil!!! He thought no one would notice!

http://nttsuperplus.com/Dhea_Testimonials.htm
yesitdid
So , steve-o is a former flim-flam artist and now a snake oil salesman. (and possibly an apologist for the likes of Saddam Hussein)
Credibility does not seem to be his long suit.

Oh,,, the horror,,, the horror
Foxx
QUOTE (billybats+Dec 30 2005, 02:20 AM)
Yeh, L-shaped buildings my arse blink.gif

Statements like that really don't help your credibility. Anyhow, it appears to be part of US naval base in San Diego:

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=32.676108,-...n=0,0&t=k&hl=en

Thanks 'Billybats'.

Your link went to the homepage of Googles terrestial satellite image site; but didn't get me to the building co-ordinates. Can you be more specific?

Sorry, I'm not really a super-spy, and can't find the building by checking-out Diego? (Unlike some here... I don't have unlimited time for wild goose chases.

Now, you have me 'intrigued' and I want to know more about this alleged building.

(Not that it 'adds' or 'detracts' from the WTC discussion), but I would like to find confirmation (or refutation) that such building exists in Reality.

The 'plan-view' refutations of Schneibster & Adoucette don't quite hold water for me... nevertheless, you still have not convinced me that such a building exists... or what purpose / offices such building would be involved with?





steve1957
Foxx,

Yes, the good thing about the truth is it can verified in many ways.

The easiest way is to go on Google Earth. I'm not sure if you have it, but it's a free download from google.com.

Think of it as an extremely advanced mapquest, although the method they use is different.

What they've done is to simply utilize satelite images of the planet, billions of images of the globe, so that you can zoom in our out.

You can either type in an address or scroll around the globe, find a country you like then zoom in, and you can get pretty close, just barely enough to almost see people.

On that swastika, it's real. You just go to San Diego, California, then find the naval bases and zoom in, you can't miss it. It's right there in plain view.

If you need more help let me know. Only one thing, the Google Earth only works with PC's, not Macs, and you need high speed internet.

Here's the link http://earth.google.com/download-earth.html
adoucette
laugh.gif

I like the part where his wife says that SYNTHETIC DHEA is BAAAAD, but Natural DHEA is like the fountain of youth.

Also the part where they added amino acids to make it "bypass the Liver"

laugh.gif

Arthur
Guest
QUOTE (billybats+Dec 30 2005, 02:20 AM)
Yeh, L-shaped buildings my arse  blink.gif

Statements like that really don't help your credibility.  Anyhow, it appears to be part of US naval base in San Diego:

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=32.676108,-...n=0,0&t=k&hl=en

The building is on Coronado Island and you would pass right over it at low altitude landing at the navy base. I lived across the street and military planes were constantly landing. Zoom out, you can see how the main landing strip lines up with the swastika. I wonder if the navy uses it as a reference?
yesitdid
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 30 2005, 03:10 AM)
Back to the issue,

looking at those pictures posted by BillyBats

Such as this one:

user posted image

or this one

user posted image

How do the CT "believers" square this with their FREQUENT statements that

"The Towers Fell with NO RESISTANCE"

Curious, since one would think that twisting those metal pieces would generate a wee bit of resistance.

Arthur

oh,, ohh,, let me answer this one Arthur

Those bent columns got that way due to the explosives!!! Very slow explosives that bend large steel columns rather than rip through them.
Common Sense
QUOTE
So , steve-o is a former flim-flam artist and now a snake oil salesman. (and possibly an apologist for the likes of Saddam Hussein)
Credibility does not seem to be his long suit.

Oh,,, the horror,,, the horror


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
So , steve-o is a former flim-flam artist and now a snake oil salesman. (and possibly an apologist for the likes of Saddam Hussein)
Credibility does not seem to be his long suit.

Oh,,, the horror,,, the horror


Your credibility has now fallen faster than the towers themselves. Heh!

Steve's credibility in real time -> user posted image

Did I call it or what... Heh!
Foxx
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 30 2005, 03:10 AM)
Back to the issue,

looking at those pictures posted by BillyBats

Such as this one:

user posted image

or this one

user posted image

How do the CT "believers" square this with their FREQUENT statements that

"The Towers Fell with NO RESISTANCE"

Curious, since one would think that twisting those metal pieces would generate a wee bit of resistance.

Arthur

OR...

Was the 'bending' attributable to ground impact damage?

Was this a column ejected horizontally from 1000 feet up and then fell through thin space to crash into other solid objects (like the ground)?

We don't really KNOW, do we?

NIST (and other official spokespersons SHOULD KNOW).

These columns were ALL marked with identifying numbers & symbols.

From where did these bent columns originate???


steve1957
Common Sense,

Hey this is great having you guys do all this hard work for me, I'm impressed.

But doesn't this prove my point even more so, that you shouldn't trust in man blindly? Jeremiah 17:5 Cursed is the man who trust in man.

So you should never trust in me or anyone else for that matter, because we have all sinned and all fall short of God's glory. Yes, I've been a rotten little devil in the past on many occasions. In fact when I really looked in the mirror one day I found the anti-christ, it was me.

But in addition to that devilish part of me, which I confess I have, there is also a spirit of truth and justice and love for my fellow human being. That's one way I could understand the scriptures and who God is really talking about when He refers to the devil and the Christ seed.

It's all of humanity. Here's the mystery, "We all have a good side and we all have a bad side" Amazing isn't it?

And that's why when I say something or anyone else says something you need to DISCERN and think for yourselves and discover whether what they are saying makes any sense.

By the way, that bribery incident was almost 30 years ago, and I was offered money to testify in a trial. When I called the people back to set it up they tape recorded the conversations and then had me arrested.

I still blame myself for being a jerk and allowing myself to be set up like that, and I accept responsibility for my actions, which were wrong, but the testimony I agreed to give in that case was true any way so I didn't see the harm at the time, but I was young and stupid and foolish and learned some valuable lessons.

The question is can any of you learn from your mistakes and confess the fact that your currently supporting a group of people who are murdering innocent people? Or do you think that by pointing out some stupid mistakes I made almost 30 years ago somehow substantiates your claims that the laws of physics and gravity were changed on 9/11 by a magician in a cave???
steve1957
yesitdid,

The bent columns prove control demolition for the following reasons...

1# If no explosives were used then most all of the columns would have been bent like that, (in which case the towers would have BENT OVER)

But in fact many of the columns turned to fine dust and/or shredded apart.

#2 In fact explosives were placed probably on most all of the floors at key locations, including the critical joints, whereas a good portion of the structure did not need to be exploded, that would be rediculous.

Do you know how much explosives it would take to disintegrate the entire structure???

Come on now, THINK!!! When you do control demolition you plant the charges at the key spots needed to break the joints so that the building will fall.

And that might be one of the fairy tales you guys are so humg up on.

Both explosives and gravity brought the building down, THINK!!!! You don't blow up the whole building.

So you use just enough explosives to get the ball rolling and then gravity will do the rest.

However gravity alone could not have possibly come close to doing what the WTC towers did or building 7, because of the FREE FALL SPEED for one and the path the structure fell in.

If they hadn't detonated most all the floors the TOP WOULD HAVE BENT OVER, and they couldn't have that now could they? Can you imagine the damage it would have caused if the towers tipped over as oppesed to imploding the way they did?

So of course your gonna have many bent columns of steel, which is why that proves control demolition.

KNowing that some pieces were bent then let me ask you this, how in the world did those other pieces EXPLODE into fine dust and shredded metal???
steve1957
yesitdid,

Here's a link that might cheer you up a little... Oh you'll need to turn on your speakers.

http://www.iwilltryit.com/rush1.htm
yesitdid
QUOTE
But doesn't this prove my point even more so, that you shouldn't trust in man blindly? Jeremiah 17:5 Cursed is the man who trust in man.

So you should never trust in me or anyone else for that matter, because we have all sinned and all fall short of God's glory. Yes, I've been a rotten little devil in the past on many occasions. In fact when I really looked in the mirror one day I found the anti-christ, it was me.


there's a little saying they have in Texas that good ol'GWB has a lot of trouble remembering but I do.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

You are correct steve, we should not trust you. In fact no one should ever trust you ever again. Your credibility here on Earth is shot and always will be until your dying day, at least as far as I am concerned. I tutored inmates of the local jail in math (elementary and high school) for several months. Couldn't take it. They were all frauds and cheats who would copy the answers and attempt to pass this off as having done the work.
yesitdid
QUOTE (steve1957+Dec 30 2005, 03:48 AM)
yesitdid,

The bent columns prove control demolition for the following reasons...

1# If no explosives were used then most all of the columns would have been bent like that, (in which case the towers would have BENT OVER)

But in fact many of the columns turned to fine dust and/or shredded apart.

#2 In fact explosives were placed probably on most all of the floors at key locations, including the critical joints, whereas a good portion of the structure did not need to be exploded, that would be ridiculous.

Do you know how much explosives it would take to disintegrate the entire structure???

Come on now, THINK!!! When you do control demolition you plant the charges at the key spots needed to break the joints so that the building will fall.

And that might be one of the fairy tales you guys are so humg up on.

Both explosives and gravity brought the building down, THINK!!!! You don't blow up the whole building.

So you use just enough explosives to get the ball rolling and then gravity will do the rest.

However gravity alone could not have possibly come close to doing what the WTC towers did or building 7, because of the FREE FALL SPEED for one and the path the structure fell in.

If they hadn't detonated most all the floors the TOP WOULD HAVE BENT OVER, and they couldn't have that now could they? Can you imagine the damage it would have caused if the towers tipped over as oppesed to imploding the way they did?

So of course your gonna have many bent columns of steel, which is why that proves control demolition.

KNowing that some pieces were bent then let me ask you this, how in the world did those other pieces EXPLODE into fine dust and shredded metal???

You are now at odds with Foxx, steve. He says that the towers were "blown to bits" not just demolished.

Calculations on the amount of explosives required... OK

From a previous post I made on another forum:
___________________________________________
Hoffman does his calculations and comes up with an energy availability that is, in his calculations, only one-tenth that required to do what was shown to happen(in his view of what happened).

Ok, so then if there was only one tenth the energy required due to gravity AND the other 90% of the energy came from explosives then what are the calculations on the amount of explosives required to contribute 9 times as much energy than was available due to gravitational potential.

Hoffman states that 4 x 10^11 joules of energy would be available due to gravity. 9 times that is 36 x 10^11 joules.
TNT has 4.18 x 10^6 joules/Kg therefore it would require the equivalent to 861,244 kilograms(1,894,737 pounds) of TNT in addition to the gravity energy in order to do what Hoffman states happened.

Now C4 which is 18% more powerful that TNT would of course use less(C4 is 91% RDX) so that would be the equivalent of 1,605,709 pounds of C4(802 tons)

The premise is then that more than one million pounds of explosives were surreptitiously installed in the steel and concrete of the WTC towers prior to 9/11. That detonators and control devices were attached to the explosives as well. That these explosives were somehow protected from prior discovery, and premature destruction or detonation due to the plane impacts and subsequent fires, and that they all functioned perfectly on 9/11/01
_______________________

Foxx would assert that in addition to this some amount of thermite was also used in the basement level to burn through the core columns and to produce that great explosion that willie says occurred there prior to the impact of the plane(though Foxx can't say why thermite would have this explosive effect)

I will leave the two of you to decide what the 'truth' is. get back to the thread when you have this worked out, OK?

Oh, and this is the very first I have heard about columns that turned to fine dust. Back that up please.
steve1957
QUOTE
I like the part where his wife says that SYNTHETIC DHEA is BAAAAD, but Natural DHEA is like the fountain of youth.


Arthur, are you trying to get me to pay you a commission for advertising our product?

Well since you brought it, you can do your own research and discover that synthetic DHEA cause cancer and many other insidious side effects. It's outlawed in most countries, and it should be in the US, but because of all the corruption the congress took bribes and legalized it.

Our product is not synthetic DHEA, but an all natural combination of herbs that provide nutrition so the body can produce it's own natural, God given supply of real DHEA manufactured in the body.

And that's where my wife and I made most of our money. We made so much a few years back that we semi-retired and spent a lot of time reading the bible and investigating things.

In 1994, as we began developing our product we learned many things about doctors and our government, there is good and bad, but I'll tell you there is so much corruption in our government it would make you sick, even aside from 9/11 the things our government is allowing boggles the mind.

All these drugs flooding the market place is killing people. Yeah we all need some help with medications now and then, and pharmaceutical products can be helpful, but when you abuse them it can kill you and it is in many cases.

So it's not just the big oil companies and the defense contractors, Halliburton, Enron, etc. but the pharmaceutical companies are cleaning up at the expence of peoples lives.

I'll put it this way, this nation is screwed, we're on a perpetual path to destruction in the way that we're heading, ONLY GOD CAN SAVE US.

I know this goes against all the things you've learned watching teletubbies, but when you do finally grow up and open up that little mind of yours, you'll find out that you need God more than ever.

In fact we boldly tell people you don't really need Super-Plus, even though it's extremely beneficial, what you really need is God's help.
yesitdid
QUOTE (steve1957+Dec 30 2005, 03:52 AM)
yesitdid,

Here's a link that might cheer you up a little... Oh you'll need to turn on your speakers.

http://www.iwilltryit.com/rush1.htm

Been having trouble with the 'puter, no sound on your cartoon.

Seems you are poking at Rush and all the other loonies at FoxNews.

Can't argue with that.
yesitdid
QUOTE
Dod given supply of real DHEA manufactured in the body


We all make typos but "Dod" steve? Little freudian slip there?
steve1957
yesitdid,

Regarding Foxx's statement about the buildings being blown to bits, I agree with the metaphore. And it's a very close metaphore, because much of the building was blown to bits, however in a building that size you're always going to have several pieces that escape some of the blast.

You could also say that it was blown to bits, however some bits were larger than others, but in either case "Blown to bits" is a very good metaphore and close to what happened.

But in truth does it really matter if 95% was blown to bits or even 50%? The fact of the matter is that EXPLOSIVES WERE PLANTED IN THE TOWERS. Exactly how much may be impossible to say, but there the OVERWEALMING EVIDENCE we can say a lot.
zoktoberfest
CONJUNCTION: n 1: the temporal property of two things happening at the same time


-Nazi architecture in San Diego comes to the attention of the forum.

-Gestapo tactics used to discredit newest member of that forum.

Quote arthur
"Is this you as well? (ps don't lie, you KNOW I have my sources)"





steve1957
yesdidit,

Good eye. Thanks for pointing out my mistake. See I told you I still have a little devil left in me. But thank God He's forgiving.
Common Sense
There are 3 other people I know who evoke the presence of God

user posted image

user posted image

user posted image


When God is your pilot...

user posted image

Throughout history, [reason] has been our only true savior.
yesitdid
QUOTE (steve1957+Dec 30 2005, 04:28 AM)
yesitdid,

Regarding Foxx's statement about the buildings being blown to bits, I agree with the metaphore. And it's a very close metaphore, because much of the building was blown to bits, however in a building that size you're always going to have several pieces that escape some of the blast.

You could also say that it was blown to bits, however some bits were larger than others, but in either case "Blown to bits" is a very good metaphore and close to what happened.

But in truth does it really matter if 95% was blown to bits or even 50%? The fact of the matter is that EXPLOSIVES WERE PLANTED IN THE TOWERS. Exactly how much may be impossible to say, but there the OVERWEALMING EVIDENCE we can say a lot.

Discuss Foxx's characterization with Foxx.
yesitdid
QUOTE (zoktoberfest+Dec 30 2005, 04:29 AM)
CONJUNCTION: n 1: the temporal property of two things happening at the same time


-Nazi architecture in San Diego comes to the attention of the forum.

-Gestapo tactics used to discredit newest member of that forum.

Quote arthur
"Is this you as well? (ps don't lie, you KNOW I have my sources)"

What characterization would put on the continued attempt to paint some posters as agents of a gov't that carried out the attacks of 9/11?
Common Sense
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 30 2005, 03:14 AM)
laugh.gif

I like the part where his wife says that SYNTHETIC DHEA is BAAAAD, but Natural DHEA is like the fountain of youth.

Also the part where they added amino acids to make it "bypass the Liver"

laugh.gif

Arthur

user posted image

"Take it from me, Natural DHEA is good for you. If you use it regularly, you will also have penis this big!" -Arnold
metamars
QUOTE
Metamars, I tried to respond to your points on heat transfer but after writing it, I lost it somewhere in the ether. I'll get back to you shortly, probably tomorrow.


Thanks. Looking forward to it.

===================

BTW, your appearance on this thread with serious insights (I trust *) into the physics of the WTC collapses seems to be correlated with a lot of "noise" postings (as in "signal to noise") that obscure the core technical issues and more 'mature' (for lack of a better, but still non-inflammatory adjective) arguments, both qualitative and quantitative.

I fail to see what Jeremiah has to do with 911 physics, any more than I can see what pictures of a dead Mussolini have to do with 911 physics.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if the timing is not coincidental. I noticed some oddities in the signal to noise ratio (amongst other things) when Professor Steven E. Jones made his all too brief appearance into the limelight. So, if you are indeed attracting spam, you are in good company. biggrin.gif Just to make it perfectly clear: I suspect this strangely coincidental spam represents deliberate efforts to manipulate this forum, and people's perceptions of disbelievers in the government Fairy Tale versions of 911.

Ideally, we could have a moderated discussion board somewhere, where the mods are fair minded and can pick out an argument or question that one would be embarassed to present to one's college physics professor from it's opposite . Don't really know of any.

Till then, please don't be discouraged from serious posting by other posters who don't know the difference between a qualitative argument and a quantitative one, have little sense of the difference between a weak argument and a strong one, don't realize that some theoretical arguments are insightful even if not definitive, don't realize that some theoretical arguments are not EVEN insightful (even if they ARE definitive in their domain), don't know what upper or lower limits are, or why they're useful in arguments, and/or seem immune from admitting definite or probable errors, even when considerable evidence suggests that's the case. (These last I think of as "popes" .) I think it stands to reason that disinfo operations would rely on both popes infallibly arguing for the government's versiion, as well as easily refuted or discredited critics of same. After all, why wouldn't they?

I realize one needs to make allowances for non-techie types, and some non-techies have posted very valuable stuff (especially Foxx).

However, the mud-slingling, trolling, fixation on others' trolling and sock puppets, conflating with religion and conspiracy theories that don't bear any significant relationship to 911, etc., is detracting from the usefulness of this forum. For that matter, so is posting huge amounts of material on 911 that don't directly bear on this thread's subject. There are other forums for that.

Hopefully, you will be undeterred.


======================================

I'd also be interested in your thoughts on how to get the scientific community to focus on this problem. I have previously suggested visiting professors on campus and handing them the papers of Hoffman, Trumpman, and Jones.

Your thoughts?

======================================



Also curious about what is your view of the mysterious collapsing spire? Have you seen the videos and pictures? Frankly, the only viable hypotheses that I can think of are some exotic technology, or else the videos and photographs, from different angles, were all faked. Disintegration into powder occurs within 3 seconds, long before the top would have faded from view, even in a free fall. The disintegration is also clearly non-explosive.



=====================================

* I am reserving final judgement on your calculation of strain energy until I can verify it by textbook references or the like. If it's essentially correct, it pretty much destroys any viable belief within technically literate audiences, versed in the specifics of the WTC 1/2 collapses, in the US government Fairy Tale versions of collapse. It also bolsters something that I'm pretty sure Professor Jones clearly implied - and that is, that even NIST's account of a local collapse is fraudulent.

This raises the question, though, of why Professor Jones doesn't mention such a calculation in his paper. He has presented to engineers, after all, as well as physicists.
Foxx
QUOTE
Originally posted by YID
Foxx would assert that in addition to this some amount of thermite was also used in the basement level to burn through the core columns and to produce that great explosion that willie says occurred there prior to the impact of the plane(though Foxx can't say why thermite would have this explosive effect)


Ehhhh ??? ... don't put words in my mouth lil Yidster.

I'll speak for myself, (thank you very much).

I have never stated that thermite has an 'explosive' effect.

Incendiaries have a different purpose.

Neither have I ever stated ' THERMITE WAS USED'... only that it COULD HAVE plausibly been used in the demolitions...(as evidenced by the mysterious 'melting' of steel columns)...

You seem to think that 'acid rain' is a more plausible answer.

It's a 'free world' ... think what you like.

Sorry, I don't buy the postulation that 'acid rain' caused those WTC 7 columns (which according to NIST were NEVER RECOVERED) to turn into 'swiss cheese'.

Nope! 'Something ELSE' caused that (as far as I am concerned). NIST is trying to bury it.



WHY !!! ???


zoktoberfest
CONJUNCTION: n 1: the temporal property of two things happening at the same time


-Nazi architecture in San Diego comes to the attention of the forum.

-Gestapo tactics used to discredit newest member of that forum.

Quote: arthur
"Is this you as well? (ps don't lie, you KNOW I have my sources)"

So, Steve is bringing his vast video library to our forum. I've watched several already (for free) and enjoyed them. If I choose to purchase any, he bundles them for $10. I donated $80 (gladly) to Pacifica, to get just one of those videos as a thank you gift. I know there's not much substance left to our democracy, but I thought that capitalism was still practiced in the lower socio-economic sector. You know, capitalism for the masses but mergers, monopolies, off shores, right-offs, tax breaks and no-bids for the corporations. Ask arthur about the latter, he has an honorary doctorate from the PNAC institute. So, Steve has a past; but he's a legitimate, posting member and if your interested, he can sell you pertinent videos, cheap. Arthur on the other hand is a repressive appendage and sentinal of the bush "corporment". In the grand scheme of things, which is a worse problem for the freedom of speech and the free exchange of ideas on this forum?
billybats
I'm not saying the swastika building was built after the symbol was perverted by the nazis. It would be interesting to find out who the architect was and when it was planned.

But the fact remains, it was designed to look like it does. This isn't like the face on mars, this is as in your face as it gets. In fact, look at the buildings to the left of the swastika. Those 2 buildings look like eagles, maybe those nazi eagles if you use some imagination.

User posted image

Maybe they were built after the war to invite the nazis we brought here - you know, operation paperclip, alsos, ticom? Interesting stuff.
adoucette
QUOTE (Foxx+)
Was the 'bending' attributable to ground impact damage?


Are you SERIOUS????

Give it up Foxx, these pictures are PROOF that there was SUBSTANTIAL resistance to the fall.

Also, we've yet to see any steel with signs of having "evaporated" or turned into "swiss cheese", or you know, ANYTHING BESIDES BIG COLUMNS OF STEEL being turned into PRETZELS by the IMMENSE energy released by the collapse.

According to you, it was all turned to POWDER before the collapse, but that won't explain the pictures now will it?

Go ahead, I can't wait to see you WIGGLE out of this.

Oh, and Steve, I noticed you didn't respond to any of the postings of ACTUAL controlled demolitions, NONE OF WHICH looked ANYTHING like the WTC towers.

Arthur
source of the sulfur
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 30 2005, 06:16 AM)
QUOTE (Foxx+)
Was the 'bending' attributable to ground impact damage?


Are you SERIOUS????

Give it up Foxx, these pictures are PROOF that there was SUBSTANTIAL resistance to the fall.

Also, we've yet to see any steel with signs of having "evaporated" or turned into "swiss cheese", or you know, ANYTHING BESIDES BIG COLUMNS OF STEEL being turned into PRETZELS by the IMMENSE energy released by the collapse.

According to you, it was all turned to POWDER before the collapse, but that won't explain the pictures now will it?

Go ahead, I can't wait to see you WIGGLE out of this.

Oh, and Steve, I noticed you didn't respond to any of the postings of ACTUAL controlled demolitions, NONE OF WHICH looked ANYTHING like the WTC towers.

Arthur

The severe corrosion and subsequent erosion of Samples 1 and 2 are a very unusual event. No clear explanation for the source of the sulfur has been identified.

So were would the sulfur come from?

http://www.911research.wtc7.net/wtc/eviden.../WTC_apndxC.htm
steve1957
zoktoberfest,

Thanks so much for the positive post.

I don't think Common sense or Arthur or the other nitwits have a problem with me personally, it's just the truth they hate so much.

I'll bet you if I started waving a flag around and said hail to little bush our saviour and preached fairy tales about magicians in caves they would probably stick up for me and say he's a great guy with a past so minor it's completely irrelevant.

But it's the typical MO to attack the credability of anyone who speaks the truth.

Professor Jones of Utah has an extensive background Physics, and an extremely impressive educational background, plus I understand he was or is a conservative republican, but when that truth starts coming out boy of boy it gets the heathen all riled up to the point where they gotta jump hard.

Actually I kind of consider the negative statements made by these wackos as a compliment. The more the truth comes out the more angry they became.

If I didn't have 4 grandchildren and wasn't used to kids having tempertantrums and crapping their shorts I might be phased a little, but since I'm used to dealing with small children and babies I'm already prepared to handle these guys.
steve1957
Hey yesididit,

click this link and see if you can wiggle out of the fact that many people witnessed explosions at the WTC.

Now if Arthur checks it out he'll probably conclude that Osama must have E-mailed the bombs over to the WTC after the planes hit,

and if "Common sense checks out he'll probably blame it on UFO's

But I'm not quite sure how you'll wiggle out of it.

http://www.iwilltryit.com/bombson911_1.htm
adoucette
QUOTE (source of the sulfur+Dec 30 2005, 06:29 AM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 30 2005, 06:16 AM)
QUOTE (Foxx+)
Was the 'bending' attributable to ground impact damage?


Are you SERIOUS????

Give it up Foxx, these pictures are PROOF that there was SUBSTANTIAL resistance to the fall.

Also, we've yet to see any steel with signs of having "evaporated" or turned into "swiss cheese", or you know, ANYTHING BESIDES BIG COLUMNS OF STEEL being turned into PRETZELS by the IMMENSE energy released by the collapse.

According to you, it was all turned to POWDER before the collapse, but that won't explain the pictures now will it?

Go ahead, I can't wait to see you WIGGLE out of this.

Oh, and Steve, I noticed you didn't respond to any of the postings of ACTUAL controlled demolitions, NONE OF WHICH looked ANYTHING like the WTC towers.

Arthur

The severe corrosion and subsequent erosion of Samples 1 and 2 are a very unusual event. No clear explanation for the source of the sulfur has been identified.

So were would the sulfur come from?

http://www.911research.wtc7.net/wtc/eviden.../WTC_apndxC.htm

No clue, but then sulfur is not an uncommon material.

But as they say in the paragraph you quoted.

QUOTE
It is possible that this is the result of long-term heating in the ground following the collapse of the buildings.


Arthur
Common Sense
QUOTE (zoktoberfest+Dec 30 2005, 05:36 AM)
So, Steve is bringing his vast video library to our forum. I've watched several already (for free) and enjoyed them. If I choose to purchase any, he bundles them for $10. I donated $80 (gladly) to Pacifica to get just one of those videos. I know there's not much substance left to our democracy, but I thought that capitalism was still practiced in the lower socio-economic sector. You know, capitalism for the masses; merger, monopoly, off shore accounting and no-bids for the corporations. Ask arthur about the latter, he has an honorary doctorate from the PNAC institute. So, Steve has a past but he's a legitimate posting member and if your interested he can sell you pertinent videos, cheap. Arthur on the other hand is a resourceful appendage of the bush administration. In the grand scheme of things, which is a worse problem for the freedom of speech and the free exchange of ideas on this forum?

I knew it. They're here for spam. Heh! Now Steve brings in his *Cough*infomercial actors*cough* on stage. I wonder if he still has his tux on. tongue.gif

"I paid $80 dollars to a con artist so Rove can distract us with non-sense. This way Bush can ezdrop on everyone while Iraqi children died at our hands. And anyone who doesn't believe the con artist is working for the PNAC." - zoktoberfest
adoucette
QUOTE (steve1957+Dec 30 2005, 06:47 AM)
Hey yesididit,

click this link and see if you can wiggle out of the fact that many people witnessed explosions at the WTC.

Now if Arthur checks it out he'll probably conclude that Osama must have E-mailed the bombs over to the WTC after the planes hit,

and if "Common sense checks out he'll probably blame it on UFO's

But I'm not quite sure how you'll wiggle out of it.

http://www.iwilltryit.com/bombson911_1.htm

They didn't WITNESS explosions.

They HEARD what they THOUGHT were explosions.

But from the VIDEOS of the collapses, no CLEAR SHARP CRACKS indicative of the use of HIGH EXPLOSIVES are heard.

Come on Steve, I listed two sites with videos of Controlled Demolitions.

FIND JUST ONE that resembles the WTC towers collapse.

Find it and tell us which one.

Arthur
Common Sense
QUOTE (steve1957+Dec 30 2005, 06:47 AM)
Hey yesididit,

click this link and see if you can wiggle out of the fact that many people witnessed explosions at the WTC.

Now if Arthur checks it out he'll probably conclude that Osama must have E-mailed the bombs over to the WTC after the planes hit,

and if "Common sense checks out he'll probably blame it on UFO's

But I'm not quite sure how you'll wiggle out of it.

http://www.iwilltryit.com/bombson911_1.htm

I knocked this one out the park a long time ago. Prison princess steve knows it's possible they saw transformers blow up on the bottom floors.

QUOTE
Assistant Fire Commissioner: "I thought . . . before . . . No. 2 came down, that I saw low-level flashes. . . . I . . . saw a flash flash flash . . . [at] the lower level of the building. You know like when they . . . blow up a building. . . ?”


But if you read on...

"I don't know if that means anything. I mean, I equate it to the building cowing down and pushing things down, it could have been electrical explosions, it could have been whatever."

Hes a FIREMAN saying it could have been "electrical explosions".

Ever SEE a transformer explode???

http://www.stupidcollege.com/items/Electri...ormer-Explosion

"When we got to about 50 feet from the South Tower, we heard the most eerie sound that you would ever hear. A high-pitched noise and a popping noise made everyone stop. We all looked up. At the point, it all let go...
...There was an explosion and the whole top leaned toward us and started coming down. I stood there for a second in total awe, and then said, "What the F###?" I honestly thought it was Hollywood."

Gee... I wonder what that high pitched noise could be... Do TRANSFORMERS make high pitched noise before blowing up...

http://www.stupidcollege.com/items/Electri...ormer-Explosion

Do you know all these buildings had transformer vaults?

Well I guess that takes care of what the fireman saw and heard.. Or does it... No I'm sure I'll hear some new pod people explanation...
adoucette
QUOTE (metamars+)
* I am reserving final judgement on your calculation of strain energy until I can verify it by textbook references or the like. If it's essentially correct, it pretty much destroys any viable belief within technically literate audiences, versed in the specifics of the WTC 1/2 collapses, in the US government Fairy Tale versions of collapse. It also bolsters something that I'm pretty sure Professor Jones clearly implied - and that is, that even NIST's account of a local collapse is fraudulent.


Met, those pictures of the twisted steel pretty much destroy his idea that the buildings could take the force of that fall and only bend a bit.

Arthur
Guest
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 30 2005, 06:58 AM)
QUOTE (source of the sulfur+Dec 30 2005, 06:29 AM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 30 2005, 06:16 AM)
QUOTE (Foxx+)
Was the 'bending' attributable to ground impact damage?


Are you SERIOUS????

Give it up Foxx, these pictures are PROOF that there was SUBSTANTIAL resistance to the fall.

Also, we've yet to see any steel with signs of having "evaporated" or turned into "swiss cheese", or you know, ANYTHING BESIDES BIG COLUMNS OF STEEL being turned into PRETZELS by the IMMENSE energy released by the collapse.

According to you, it was all turned to POWDER before the collapse, but that won't explain the pictures now will it?

Go ahead, I can't wait to see you WIGGLE out of this.

Oh, and Steve, I noticed you didn't respond to any of the postings of ACTUAL controlled demolitions, NONE OF WHICH looked ANYTHING like the WTC towers.

Arthur

The severe corrosion and subsequent erosion of Samples 1 and 2 are a very unusual event. No clear explanation for the source of the sulfur has been identified.

So were would the sulfur come from?

http://www.911research.wtc7.net/wtc/eviden.../WTC_apndxC.htm

No clue, but then sulfur is not an uncommon material.

But as they say in the paragraph you quoted.

QUOTE
It is possible that this is the result of long-term heating in the ground following the collapse of the buildings.


Arthur

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
It is possible that this is the result of long-term heating in the ground following the collapse of the buildings.


Arthur

No clear explanation for the source of the sulfur has been identified. The rate of corrosion is also unknown. It is possible that this is the result of long-term heating in the ground following the collapse of the buildings.


Arthur, if they are not paying you they should be. When you take it out of contect it does sound like the explanation. How would long term heating produce Sulfur "The most popular vaporizing agent due to the fact it lowers ignition temperature for most pyrotechnic mixtures."
gordon
In this post I address the belief that there would be an inward pulling force on the walls as postulated in the NIST report and by several posters on this thread.

A steel beam simply supported and fixed at its ends (to a wall) will sag due to its own mass and any mass placed upon it. The forces induced will be comprised of a vertical force downwards through the wall and a pulling force inwards on the wall.
These forces will increase if, and only if the mass increases. (if you put more weight on the beam)
If the beam is heated it will sag more due to its thermal expansion, but it will not increase the pulling or downward forces since it will not weigh more. The minor difference in angle of incidence of the floor beams and perimeter columns would decrease the pulling force.
If the beam is heated but prevented from expanding naturally it will exert outward pushing forces on the walls, due to its thermal expansion.

Differential vertical thermal expansion of the core and walls will similarly induce an outward pushing force on the walls by the floor. (or more correctly an inward pushing force by the walls on the floors) as load is transmitted through the hat truss)

There is no other force which could have acted inwardly on the walls other than the forces due to the total weight of the individual floors and their contents, augmented to some degree by the additional weight of aircraft parts. .

All forces due to thermal expansion acted outwards on the wall.
Since the wall was vertical before collision any deflection in the wall caused by thermal expansion would have been outward.
But the NIST report states that they introduced an inward pulling force by the floors on the walls in their model and their collapse initiation scenario relies upon this force.
The NIST report does not identify the origin of the force which they included in the model.
Other commentators have also indicated that they hold the belief that heat would cause the walls to deflect outwards.

Now let us examine what would happen if that force did exist.
If this force existed, whatever direction it acted in, it would also exist and act at the opposite end of the beam.
If we allow for a moment that the force was inward and follow the NIST collapse scenario we will see that they postulate that this inward pulling force caused a deflection in the columns, sufficient for them to “elbow”. This failure progressed across adjacent perpendicular walls and then along the opposite parallel wall causing a rapid downward movement of the upper section.
However failure of the first wall through “elbowing” would cause an angular acceleration of the upper section, which as it pivoted would move the stress in the opposite wall from compression towards tension. Similarly failure of the first wall would relieve the inward pulling forces and this would remove the effect on the opposite wall. This would allow the logically similar deflections in the opposite wall to unwind and also contribute to the angular momentum.
No mechanism has been evidenced which would arrest this angular momentum and growing asymmetry.
Logic would dictate that the asymmetrical nature would continue to grow and cause an asymmetric collapse, if collapse were possible


Gordon.







Guest_yesitdid
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 30 2005, 07:05 AM)
QUOTE (steve1957+Dec 30 2005, 06:47 AM)
Hey yesididit,

click this link and see if you can wiggle out of the fact that many people witnessed explosions at the WTC.



But I'm not quite sure how you'll wiggle out of it.

http://www.iwilltryit.com/bombson911_1.htm

They didn't WITNESS explosions.

They HEARD what they THOUGHT were explosions.

But from the VIDEOS of the collapses, no CLEAR SHARP CRACKS indicative of the use of HIGH EXPLOSIVES are heard.

Come on Steve, I listed two sites with videos of Controlled Demolitions.

FIND JUST ONE that resembles the WTC towers collapse.

Find it and tell us which one.

Arthur

steve, I have been presented with the witness testimony of hearing 'explosions' many times before and again I ask, what was the upper section hitting the lower section supposed to sound like? a hiss? a tone? a poof?

People will attribute 'explosion' to loud noises.

Drop two 6X6 boards on each other, the report sounds very much like the crack of a gunshot. Hear that without being able to see it happen and you will say you heard a gunshot.
Guest
There is clear evidence of explosions.

Both firemen and WTC employees reported explosions.

Newsmen reported explosions.

The cover-up commission refused to deal with it and
so does the Bush-cult and here too. This is to be expected.
adoucette
QUOTE (Guest+Dec 30 2005, 07:21 AM)
QUOTE
No clear explanation for the source of the sulfur has been identified. The rate of corrosion is also unknown. It is possible that this is the result of long-term heating in the ground following the collapse of the buildings.


Arthur, if they are not paying you they should be. When you take it out of contect it does sound like the explanation. How would long term heating produce Sulfur "The most popular vaporizing agent due to the fact it lowers ignition temperature for most pyrotechnic mixtures."

Except that in pyro you are talking about PURE sulfur. And while it is TRUE that you can slow the burn rate of gunpowder by adding EXCESS Sulfur to the traditional 75% KNO3, 15% S, 10% C recipe, without at least 10% S you don't have squat.

But that's sort of irrelevant, Sulfur exists only in a highly heated gaseous state after explosion and therefor is not related to this issue at all.

BUT, LOTS of Sulfur exists in a building.

The largest supply would be in Gypsum which is CaSO4 + H2O

Lesser amounts but also possible:

Sulfuric Acid from Lead Acid batteries (often sealed units are used as backup power for emergency lighting, plus there was the parking lot and each of them had batteries, each with a decent amount of Sulfuric acid)

Magnesium Sulfate (Epsom Salts) is fairly common.

Sulfur is also found in steel.

Sulfur is also found in Rubber, predominately in VULCANIZED rubber which equal TIRES (see parking lot).

So while they said the source of the Sulfur was not known, they didn't say "there is no plausible way for Sulfur to have been in the rubble heap"

Again, this is ALL pointless, as the only explosive I'm aware of that uses Sulfur IS Gunpowder, and Gunpowder is a LOW EXPLOSIVE. It would have little use in taking down the WTC unless you brought in barrels of the stuff.

High Explosives on the other hand are almost exclusively Nitrogen, Carbon and Oxygen based, Like TNT, RDX, C4 etc. Which is why when the airport screeners swab your carry on, they are looking for NITROGEN compounds, not Sulfur.

Arthur
gordon
Arthur said,
BUT, LOTS of Sulfur exists in a building.
The largest supply would be in Gypsum which is CaSO4 + H2O
Lesser amounts but also possible:
Sulfuric Acid from Lead Acid batteries
Magnesium Sulfate (Epsom Salts) is fairly common.
Sulfur is also found in steel.
Sulfur is also found in Rubber, predominately in VULCANIZED rubber which equal TIRES (see parking lot).

So while they said the source of the Sulfur was not known, they didn't say "there is no plausible way for Sulfur to have been in the rubble heap"



How would you envisage these sulphur sources taking part in a reaction such that they were identified at an intergranular level, if the collapse was driven by gravity alone?

I do not disagree with you that Sulphur may have been present in the rubble heap, but this is not the same as it existing within the structure of the steel.
How could it end up there?

Gordon.
metamars
QUOTE
Met, those pictures of the twisted steel pretty much destroy his idea that the buildings could take the force of that fall and only bend a bit.


Methinks your thinking is murky.

In a demolition, not every last column is blown. Thus, one would expect extensive bending of a few columns, and the rest being "cut". The ratio between these 2, you have to ask demolition experts.

I have known for quite some time that some of the steel underwent catastrophic bending. Hoffman has described "metal columns draped like wet noodles over other pieces of metal" (not an exact quote).


Such a catastrophic bending most certainly seems to be due to a catastrophic loss of strength, which, AFAIK, is not consistent with either demolition or the FEMA Fairy Tale. Even demolitions that employ thermite don't use it weaken columns along their lengths (again, AFAIK). They use it to cut columns in localized areas.


To say that catastrophic bending is not consistent with a normal demolition is not logically equivalent to saying that the FEMA Fairy Tale is thus more likely.


As for how much metal exhibited catastrophic ("wet noodle") bending and how much exhibited significant bending consistent with an explosives demolition hypothesis, I don't know. Thanks to FEMA's rapid disposal of the evidence, we will never know.

What I do know is that most all of the metal pieces were said to be of no greater length than 30 feet, which certainly supports demolition hypotheses, not the FEMA Fairy Tale.

Also, the curved box column has a more or less squared off end (as do many other pieces of columns). That strikes me as completely impossible, absent some kind of "cutting agent". If you look up the links about the bending of I-beam columns I posted a few pages back, you wiil see pictures of what a REAL beam looks like when being bent. It does not snap into sections with squared off ends. I see no reason why a beam with a box geometry would behave much differently.

Finally, my opinion of the bent column is that it may primarily show evidence of catastrophic bending, in it's top section. I say this because I expect a normal beam to distibute stresses more or less equally within itself, and so I would expect it to bend a small amount like the arc of a circle along it's lenght, and then to "elbow". This picture shows neither - instead, it is bent only along it's top section, by about 220 degrees, and with no obvious elbowing-type of bend (though the most likely place for that is obscured, with view from a very bad angle to see it, if indeed it's there)).

A possibly mundane explanation of this is that even if a high temperature cutting agent is only applied locally, it creates such an extraordinary temperature that adjacent pieces of columns would weaken and be predisposed to bending. However, this train of thought does not explain why the squared off end of the column is still such a well-formed rectangle, nor does it explain the "wet-noodle" columns that were draped more towards their centers.

So once again, it is easier to say what did not happen, than what did happen. In view of the uber weird, telescoping, powderizing collapse of the spire, this situation does not surprise me. The telescoping aspect of the spire's collapse shows a catastrophic loss of strength, before the disintegration into powder. It's not too hard to guess what would happen if the demolition agent that did in the spire was turned off after the weakening phase, but before the powderization phase, and confined to the top 2/3 of the spire.

Instead of a telescoping, powderizing collapse, we would have had a wet-noodle collpase! wink.gif
Common Sense
Gorgon, If the walls weren't pulled toward the center of the floor slabs what's this?

User posted image

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/Media_Public_Brie...40505_final.pdf

Start at page 36. You can SEE photographic evidence the building was pulled in. Not just one floor but across many.

It sure as hell isn't being pushed out.

I think your looking for a fly on an elephant with a microscope. Drop back and look at the total picture.

user posted image

Note how the sagging floors pull the outer column in. There is enough visual evidence the trusses were pulling the outer columns in. Now if you think a bomb blew up the building you have to explain how a bomb pulled in the wall well before building 2 fell...

Note there are also many factors the NIST considered. You keep pulling one factor out at a time and say it couldn't have happened that way. Well maybe it couldn't have if only that ONE factor was in play.

Starting with the moment the plane hit survivors said the doors wouldn't open because the building was so out of alignment. The impacts alone BENT THE 110 STORY BUILDINGS. That building was MADE to sway. I grew up in NY and have been to that building many times. When the wind was strong you could FEEL the building sway. I can't imagine an impact that would cause the building to sway enough to knock it out of center. A humanly unimaginable energy. That alone should weaken the building. Once you start to pile on the fire, unique construction, sagging trusses, shifted load distribution, hell, their computer model even took the wind shifting into account... I'm amased it didn't fall on impact!.
Common Sense
QUOTE (Guest+Dec 30 2005, 02:34 PM)
There is clear evidence of explosions.

Both firemen and WTC employees reported explosions.

Newsmen reported explosions.

The cover-up commission refused to deal with it and
so does the Bush-cult and here too. This is to be expected.

QUOTE
Assistant Fire Commissioner: "I thought . . . before . . . No. 2 came down, that I saw low-level flashes. . . . I . . . saw a flash flash flash . . . [at] the lower level of the building. You know like when they . . . blow up a building. . . ?”


But if you read on...

"I don't know if that means anything. I mean, I equate it to the building cowing down and pushing things down, it could have been electrical explosions, it could have been whatever."

Hes a FIREMAN saying it could have been "electrical explosions".

Ever SEE a transformer explode???

http://www.stupidcollege.com/items/Electri...ormer-Explosion

"When we got to about 50 feet from the South Tower, we heard the most eerie sound that you would ever hear. A high-pitched noise and a popping noise made everyone stop. We all looked up. At the point, it all let go...
...There was an explosion and the whole top leaned toward us and started coming down. I stood there for a second in total awe, and then said, "What the F###?" I honestly thought it was Hollywood."

Gee... I wonder what that high pitched noise could be... Do TRANSFORMERS make high pitched noise before blowing up...

http://www.stupidcollege.com/items/Electri...ormer-Explosion

Do you know buildings have transformers and transformer vaults?

Well I guess that takes care of what the fireman saw and heard.. Or does it... No I'm sure I'll hear some new pod people explanation...
Guest
If you look at close-up photos of the impact
area you will see that the aluminium around
that hasn´t even budged. As a result the steel
to which that aluminium is attached hasn´t
budged either nor have floors. Since the building
was designed to withstand the impact of a 707
this is no surprise.
gordon
Common Sense asked
If the walls weren't pulled toward the center of the floor slabs what's this?



That is, at best, an observed output which should not have been artificially emulated without known causation, in any realistic analysis.
G
galdur
QUOTE (Guest+Dec 30 2005, 04:31 PM)
If you look at close-up photos of the impact
area you will see that the aluminium around
that hasn´t even budged. As a result the steel
to which that aluminium is attached hasn´t
budged either nor have floors. Since the building
was designed to withstand the impact of a 707
this is no surprise.

Could someone post such a picture?
Common Sense
Pod People

"Right now, government shills are working hard to trick web sites into running the claim that [Edit: insert conspiracy here].
This is an old intelligence trick called "Poisoning the well", the intentional promotion of lies to blend with an embarrassing truth to discredit it. The government shills are trying to conceal real news stories such as [Edit: 9/11 was used as a convenient excuse to invade Iraq as the Downing Street Memo shows, Spying on Americans, the Iraq War, Torturegate, Katrina response, and so on] So, we get hoax stories poured onto the net by government propagandists, to be used by the media to attack the credibility of anyone who dares [edit: believe] the official story [edit: and divert attention from the real crimes].

At some point in the near future, photographs, or video will be "discovered" clearly showing the impact [edit: and collapse], and the mainstream media will have a field day ridiculing those "kooky [edit: liberal] Internet web sites" and their "silly conspiracy theories", all based on a silly theory the government is itself planting on the web."


http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ppfinal.html

Learn from your own people.
galdur
Well, the govt. shills here are remarkably ineffective. tongue.gif
galdur
Photos of Impact Damage to the North Tower From the Northeast

These photographs show the North Tower impact hole shortly after the jetliner impact

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/p...wtc1fires7.html

------------------------------------

No sign at all of the building being un-aligned.

The aluminium siding around the impact area
is pretty much undisturbed.

Wanted: better govt. fairy tales.
Common Sense
QUOTE (Guest+Dec 30 2005, 04:31 PM)
If you look at close-up photos of the impact
area you will see that the aluminium around
that hasn´t even budged. As a result the steel
to which that aluminium is attached hasn´t
budged either nor have floors. Since the building
was designed to withstand the impact of a 707
this is no surprise.

If that was the impact area you would have something but it's not. So why would you expect the aluminum to "Budge"?

BTW, that aluminum is designed to withstand a major hurricane. Yet on page 60 you can see it's gone from the impact.

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/Media_Public_Brie...40505_final.pdf

And yes the designers amaze me.

They never took the impact removing the fire proofing into account or the fuel of a 707 burning on impact. I heard the architect say it himself. I believe the interview is on PBS.
galdur
The aluminium is attached to the outer steel structure.

Clearly.

The floors are attached to the core and outer steel structure.

Evidently.

QED: since the aluminium doesn´t budge neither
do the core and floors.
gordon
Metamars,
As regards your points on heat transfer, a quick answer would be that if you stirred a steel beam around in a hot liquid it would get hotter quicker than if you waved it about in air. I am assuming that you are thinking of the rate of transfer and thus the maximum possible temperatures achievable. However this would be a very complex situation with differential conductivities of the steel and other materials, as well as convection, radiation and efficiencies to factor in.
However, if we look at the overall picture we know that it would not be possible for the collapse to be initiated through thermal energy alone, but rather would require a mechanical aspect working with the thermal energy. Of course this mechanism would have as its root cause, the thermal energy and possibly the impact damage.
Why do I say that a mechanical aspect is required? If the temperature could rise up to a level where the capacity of the steel was reduced to such an extent as to be able to counter the force generated by the sections above and no more, then any further thermal energy added would produce an incrementally small unbalanced force in the incremental time after equilibrium is reached. This small unbalanced force would clearly be insufficient to cause total collapse and only mechanical means would allow it to grow. The structure would seek and find new equilibriums, to re-balance this force.
It is this collapse mechanism, and its causation which are missing from all explanations which I have read.

We should also examine the amount of effect, for which the fire could be responsible.

If we assume 2000 million kJ contained in the fuel and a specific heat capacity for steel of 0.46kJ/kgK. and use this energy to raise the steel to 750C (we will assume for now that this is possible) and thus shed 80% of its capability, we can see that the amount of steel so raised would be of the order of 6000 tonnes at a transfer rate of 100%. However the transfer would not be anywhere near 100 per cent efficiency. The assumptions that all of the potential heat energy in the fuel was transferred instantaneously and directly and without losses to the steel contradict the laws of thermodynamics. It makes no allowance for the inefficiency of combustion, for efficiency of insulation, for losses through conduction, radiation, convection, or any other losses. In reality the efficiency of the combustion would not likely exceed 30% and of this only a small portion would enter the steel. So heat transferred from the fuel to the steel would have been a fraction of the theoretical potential of the fuel. Furthermore, we are being asked to believe that some of the fuel was responsible, through explosions, for blowing off the elevator doors, smashing concrete walls, moving equipment etc. (At this point I will also point out that since it would take several seconds for the fuel to fall to ground level, any explosion initiated at ground level would have occurred, at the earliest, those same several seconds after aircraft impact. We can therefore infer the site of initiation, and the position of the fuel consumed in any explosion, from the difference in time of the aircraft impact and explosion . If these were close or contiguous then the explosion must have initiated and consumed fuel at close to the impact level. Of course any overpressure would transmit to other areas of the building, but since the effect would drop off proportionately with the square of the distance, damage caused at ground, or below ground, level from an explosion in the higher levels would also tend to be in the same proportion.)
A great deal is being attributed to the fuel’s thermal energy potential.

Even if we were to include an inflated figure for the thermal energy released from the other combustibles equivalent to one fuel load on each of five affected storeys, and allow that this could actually raise the steel to 750C what would be the net effect?
The areas most affected by the heat would be those directly at or close to the collision point, followed by those above, those below and to some extent, the lower floors.
This would make it more likely that the damage caused by impact between the falling upper section and the lower section, would be predominant in the falling upper section, thus dissipating its directed kinetic energy and arresting the collapse at an earlier point in time than would be the case otherwise.


G
frater plecticus
The Anglo-American War of Terror: An Overview
by Michel Chossudovsky / GlobalResearch.ca
December 21, 2005
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?con...&articleId=1576

Paper presented at the Perdana Global Peace Forum 2005

Putra World Trade Centre, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia,

14-17 December 2005

The debate regarding war and Militarization raises the broad issue of national sovereignty.

I am particularly gratified as an economist to participate in this important event in the Nation’s capital, in Malaysia, a country which at a critical moment in its history, namely at the height of the 1997 Asian crisis, took the courageous stance of confronting the Washington Consensus and the international financial establishment.

Under the helm of Tun Dr. Mahathir Mohamad, carefully designed financial measures were taken to avoid the collapse of the ringgit, thereby foreclosing a scenario of economic dislocation, bankruptcy and impoverishment, as occurred in Thailand, Indonesia and South Korea.

These 1997 measures forcefully confronted the mainstream neoliberal agenda. In retrospect, this was a momentous decision, which will go down in the Nation’s history. It constitutes the basis for an understanding of what is best described as "economic and financial warfare".

Today we have come to understand that war and macro-economic manipulation are intertwined. Militarization supports economic warfare. Conversely, what is referred to euphemistically as "economic reform" supports a military and geopolitical agenda

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Introduction

The World is at the crossroads of the most serious crisis in modern history. In the largest display of military might since the Second World War, the United States and its indefectible British ally have embarked upon a military adventure, which threatens the future of humanity.

An understanding of the underlying historical background is crucial. This war agenda is not the product of a distinct neo-conservative project. From the outset of the Cold War Era, there is a consistent thread, a continuum in US military doctrine, from the "Truman doctrine" to Bush's "war on terrorism".

Foreign Policy adviser George F. Kennan had outlined in a 1948 State Department brief what was later described as the "'Truman doctrine."

What this 1948 document conveys is continuity in US foreign policy, from "Containment" to "Pre-emptive" War. In this regard, the Neo-conservative agenda under the Bush administration should be viewed as the culmination of a post World War II foreign policy framework. The latter has been marked by a succession of US sponsored wars and military interventions in all major regions of the World. From Korea, Vietnam and Afghanistan, to the CIA sponsored military coups in Latin America and Southeast Asia, the objective has been to ensure US military hegemony and global economic domination, as initially formulated under the "Truman Doctrine" at the outset of the Cold War.

Despite significant policy differences, successive Democratic and Republican administrations, from Harry Truman to George W. Bush have carried out this global military agenda.

Moreover, Kennan's writings pointed to the formation of an Anglo-American alliance, which currently characterizes the close relationship between Washington and London. This alliance responds to powerful economic interests in the oil industry, defense and international banking. It is, in many regards, an Anglo-American extension of the British Empire, which was officially disbanded in the wake of the Second World War.

The Truman doctrine also points to the inclusion of Canada in the Anglo-American military axis. Moreover, Kennan had also underscored the importance of preventing the development of a continental European power that could compete with the US.

With regard to Asia, including China and India, Kennan hinted to the importance of articulating a military solution:

"The day is not far off when we are going to have to deal in straight power concepts. The less we are then hampered by idealistic slogans, the better"

Weakening the United Nations

From the outset of the Cold War, the objective was to undermine and ultimately destroy the Soviet Union. Washington was also intent upon weakening the United Nations as a genuine international body, an objective that has largely been achieved under the Bush administration:

The initial build-up of the UN in U.S. public opinion was so tremendous that it is possibly true, as is frequently alleged, that we have no choice but to make it the cornerstone of our policy in this post-hostilities period. Occasionally, it has served a useful purpose. But by and large it has created more problems than it has solved, and has led to a considerable dispersal of our diplomatic effort. And in our efforts to use the UN majority for major political purposes we are playing with a dangerous weapon which may some day turn against us. This is a situation, which warrants most careful study and foresight on our part. (Kennan 1948)

The Post Cold War

The wars in Yugoslavia, Afghanistan and Iraq are part of the same "military road-map". Confirmed by military documents, the US war agenda not only targets Iran, Syria and North Korea, but also its former Cold War enemies: Russia and China.

We are dealing with a global military agenda characterized by various forms of intervention. The latter include covert military and intelligence operations in support of domestic paramilitary groups and so-called liberation armies. These operations are largely devised with a view to creating social, ethnic and political divisions within national societies, ultimately contributing to the destruction of entire countries, as occurred in Yugoslavia.

Meanwhile, the US sponsored "democratization" agenda consists in intervening in countries’ internal affairs, often with a view to destabilizing national governments and imposing sweeping "free market" reforms. In this regard, the illegal invasion of Haiti following a US sponsored military coup, which was also supported by Canada and France, is an integral part of Washington’s global military agenda.

War and Globalization

War and globalization are intimately related processes. Military and intelligence operations support the opening up of new economic frontiers and the remolding of national economies. The powers of Wall Street, the Anglo-American oil giants and the U.S.-U.K. defense contractors are indelibly behind this process.

Ultimately, the purpose of America’s "War on Terrorism" is to transform sovereign nations into open territories (or "free trade areas"), both through "military means", as well as through the imposition of deadly macro-economic reforms. The latter, implemented under IMF-World Bank-WTO auspices often serve to undermine and destroy national economies, precipitating millions of people into abject poverty. In turn, so-called "reconstruction programs" imposed by donors and creditors in the wake of the war contribute to a spiraling external debt.

In a twisted logic, "war reparations" financed by external debt are being paid to the US invader. Billions of dollars are channeled to Western construction conglomerates such as Bechtel and Halliburton, both of which have close links to the US Department of Defense.

Iran and Syria: Next Phase of the War

Confirmed in national security documents, a central objective of this war is the conquest and confiscation of Middle East oil wealth. In this regard, the broader Middle East – Central Asian region encompasses some 70 percent of the World’s oil and gas resources, more than thirty times those of the US.

The Anglo-American oil giants in alliance with Wall Street and the military-industrial complex are indelibly behind America’s war agenda.

The next phase of this war is Iran and Syria, which have already been identified as targets.

Iran is the country with the third largest oil and gas reserves (10%) after Saudi Arabia (25%) and Iraq (11%). The US is seeking with the complicity of the UN Security Council to establish a pretext for the bombing of Iran, which is presented as a threat to world peace.

Israel is slated to play a key role in launching the military operation against Iran.

This operation is in a state of readiness. Were it to occur, the war would extend to the entire Middle Eastern region and beyond. At the same token, Israel would become an official member of the Anglo-American military axis.

In early 2005, several high profile military exercises were conducted in the Eastern Mediterranean, involving military deployments and the testing of weapons systems. Military planning meetings were held between the US, Israel and Turkey. There has been a shuttle of military and government officials between Washington, Tel Aviv and Ankara.

Intense diplomatic exchanges have been carried out at the international level with a view to securing areas of military cooperation and/or support for a US-Israeli led military operation directed against Iran. The UN Security Council resolution regarding Iran’s nuclear program provides a pretext, which the US plans to use to justify military intervention.

Of significance is a November 2004 military cooperation agreement between NATO and Israel. A few months later, Israel was involved for the first time in military exercises with NATO, which also included several Arab countries.

A massive buildup in military hardware has occurred in preparation for a possible attack on Iran. Israel has taken delivery from the US of some 5,000 "smart air launched weapons" including some 500 BLU 109 'bunker-buster bombs.

Nuclear Weapons in Conventional War Theaters: "Safe for Civilians"

An attack on Iran using tactical nuclear weapons (mini-nukes) has also been contemplated. Tactical nuclear weapons with an explosive capacity between one third to 6 times a Hiroshima bomb have been cleared for use in conventional war theaters. .

The mini-nukes have been redefined as a defensive weapon, which is "safe for civilians" "because the explosion is underground". The Senate in a December 2003 decision, has authorized their use in conventional war theaters

Air strikes against Iran could contribute to extending the war to the broader Middle East Central Asian region. Tehran has confirmed that it would retaliate if attacked, in the form of ballistic missile strikes directed against Israel (CNN, 8 Feb 2005). These attacks could also target US military facilities in the Persian Gulf, which would immediately lead us into a scenario of military escalation and all out war.

In recent developments, Israel’s armed forces have been ordered by Prime minister Ariel Sharon, "to be ready by the end of March [2006] for possible strikes" on Iran’s nuclear enrichment facilities (The Sunday Times, 11 December 2005).

Meanwhile, Iran is building its air defense capabilities. Russia has recently announced that it plans to sell to Iran some 29 Tor M-1 anti-missile systems.

The planned attack on Iran should also be understood in relation to the timely withdrawal of Syrian troops from Lebanon, which has opened up a new space, for the deployment of Israeli forces. The participation of Turkey in the US-UK-Israeli military operation is also a factor, following an agreement reached between Ankara and Tel Aviv.

Global Military Agenda

The war in the Middle East is part of a carefully defined military agenda. Formulated in September 2000, a few months before the accession of George W. Bush to the White House, the Project for a New American Century (PNAC) published its blueprint for global domination under the title: "Rebuilding America's Defenses."

The PNAC is a neo-conservative think tank linked to the Defense-Intelligence establishment, the Republican Party and the powerful Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) which plays a behind-the-scenes role in the formulation of US foreign policy.

The PNAC's declared objectives are:

- Defend the American homeland;

- Fight and decisively win multiple, simultaneous major theater wars;

- Perform the "constabulary" duties associated with shaping the security environment in critical regions;

- Transform U.S. forces to exploit the "revolution in military affairs;"

Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, who now heads the World Bank, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Vice President *** Cheney, had commissioned the PNAC blueprint prior to the 2000 presidential elections.

The PNAC outlines a roadmap of conquest. It calls for "the direct imposition of U.S. "forward bases" throughout Central Asia and the Middle East "with a view to ensuring economic domination of the world, while strangling any potential "rival" or any viable alternative to America's vision of a 'free market' economy" (See Chris Floyd, Bush's Crusade for Empire, Global Outlook, No. 6, 2003)

Distinct from theater wars, the so-called "constabulary functions" imply a form of global military policing using various instruments of military intervention including punitive bombings, covert intelligence operations and the sending in of US Special Forces, etc.

New Weapons Systems

The PNAC’s "revolution in military affairs" (meaning the development of new weapons systems) consists of the "Strategic Defense Initiative", the concurrent weaponization of space and the development of a new generation of nuclear weapons:

"While it has long been a U.S. policy to use nuclear weapons in order to respond to a nuclear attack… the new policy allows the U.S. to use nuclear weapons against states that do not have nuclear weapons and for a host of new reasons, including rapid termination of a conflict on U.S. terms or to ensure success of the U.S. forces."

(statement of Jorge Hirsh, see Global Research,

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?con...&articleId=1173

The National Defense Strategy

Since 2000, the basic premises of the PNAC have been reasserted in a number of national security documents. In March 2005, The Pentagon released its National Defense Strategy document. While the latter follows in the footsteps of the administration's "preemptive" war doctrine as detailed by the Project of the New American Century (PNAC), it goes much further in setting the contours of Washington's global military agenda.

It calls for a more "proactive" approach to warfare, beyond the weaker notion of "preemptive" and defensive actions, where military operations are launched against a "declared enemy" with a view to "preserving the peace" and "defending America".

The document explicitly acknowledges America's global military mandate, beyond regional war theaters. This mandate also includes military operations directed against countries, which are not hostile to America, but which are considered strategic from the point of view of US interests. Whereas the preemptive war doctrine envisages military action as a means of "self defense" against countries categorized as "hostile" to the US, the new Pentagon doctrine envisages the possibility of military intervention against countries, which do not visibly constitute a threat to the security of the American homeland.

The document outlines "four major threats to the United States":

- "Traditional challenges" are posed by well known and recognized military powers using "well-understood' forms of war."

- "Irregular threats" come from forces using so-called "unconventional' methods to counter stronger power."

- "The catastrophic challenge" pertains to the "use of weapons of mass destruction by an enemy."

"Disruptive challenges" pertains to "potential adversaries utilizing new technologies to counter U.S. advantages."

(See Michel Chossudovsky, From "Rogue States" to "Unstable Nations": America's New National Security Doctrine,

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO504A.html)

Mammoth Defense Budget

This military blueprint outlines the contours of a project of global military hegemony. It is predicated on a massive increase in defense spending. The underlying objective consists in overshadowing, in terms of defense outlays, any other nation on earth including America's European allies.

The United States military this year [2005] will be larger than the next 25 countries put together.... So, you know, essentially if spending patterns hold, which is to say European defense spending is declining, American is rising, in about five years, the United States will be spending more money than the rest of the world put together on defense." (Council on Foreign Relations, Annual Corporate conference, 10 March 2005).

The defense budget estimated at 401.7 billion dollars (FY 2005) does not include the "emergency supplemental defense budget" earmarked for ongoing military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. Neither is the DoD participation's in the "war on terrorism" included in the defense budget. (See http://64.177.207.201/static/budget/annual/fy05/) Nor does it include another 40 billion dollars allocated to America's intelligence apparatus, headed by John Negroponte. Approximately 80 percent of the intelligence budget, including America's system of spy satellite's, directly supports US military initiatives.

Extensive War Crimes

The economic and strategic objectives behind this war are rarely mentioned. This military project is presented to public opinion as part of the "global war on terrorism" in which Al Qaeda is unequivocally upheld, as the aggressor. The crimes of war including the torture of civilians are casually presented as "collateral damage".

In this regard, the military occupation of Iraq has resulted in the deaths of more than 100,000 Iraqi civilians (according to the Lancet, John Hopkins School of Public health study).

The routine application of torture, the setting up of numerous concentration camps is now fully documented, not to mention the kidnapping of civilians including children, who are dispatched to the Guantanamo concentration camp in Cuba.

Killing the messenger: US forces have also targeted and killing of independent journalists in Iraq, who do not report the lies and fabrications of the Anglo-American military axis.

While the international community focuses on Iran and North Korea’s nuclear program, the evidence suggests that the US led military coalition is routinely using prohibited weapons. It also plans to use nuclear weapons in the next phase of this war.

Napalm and white phosphorous bombs have been used in Iraq against civilians in densely populated urban areas. The Western media (specifically the BBC) has attempted to camouflage the use of these weapons systems.

Torture

Torture is an official US government policy. The orders to torture POWs in Iraq and Guantanamo emanated from the highest levels of the Bush Administration. Prison guards, interrogators in the US military and the CIA were responding to precise guidelines.

The US President had directly authorized the use of torture including "sleep deprivation, stress positions, the use of military dogs, and sensory deprivation through the use of hoods, etc."

(See ACLU at http://globalresearch.ca/articles/ACL412A.html ).

The secret CIA torture chambers and detention centers set up in a number of countries including the European Union are consistent with the Pentagon’s guidelines on the use of torture.

While torture is now accepted by the Bush administration, the controversy in the US pertains not to torture per se but to whether the information obtained from suspected terrorists through the application of torture can be used in a court of law to indict an alleged "terrorist".

The Criminalization of Justice

Despite the public outrage, the tendency is towards acquiescence and acceptance of the US torture agenda. The legitimacy of the war criminals in high office, who formally ordered these crimes is not questioned. "Legal opinions" drafted on the behest of war criminals are being used to "legalize" torture and redefine Justice.

War criminals legitimately occupy positions of authority, which enable them to redefine the contours of the judicial system and the process of law enforcement.

It provides them with a mandate to decide "who are the criminals", when in fact they are the criminals.

In other words, what we are dealing with is the criminalization of the State and its various institutions including the criminalization of Justice.

The truth is twisted and turned upside down. State propaganda builds a consensus within the Executive, the US Congress and the Military. This consensus is then ratified by the Judicial, through a process of outright legal manipulation.

Media disinformation instills within the consciousness of Americans that somehow the use of torture, the existence of concentration camps, extra judicial assassinations of "rogue enemies", all of which are happening, are "under certain circumstances" "acceptable" and perfectly "legal" because the Justice department's Office of Legal Counsel (OLC), says "it's legit".

The existence of an illusive outside enemy who is threatening the Homeland is the cornerstone of the propaganda campaign. The latter consists in galvanizing US citizens not only in favor of "the war on terrorism", but in support of a social order which upholds the legitimate use of torture, directed against "terrorists", as a justifiable means to preserving human rights, democracy, freedom, etc.

Racism and the Anti-Terrorist Legislation

Meanwhile, a wave of racism and xenophobia directed against Muslims has been unleashed throughout the western world. The arbitrary arrests and detention of Muslims on trumped up charges has become common practice.

"Anti-terrorist" legislation has been adopted in a number of western countries which allows for the arrest and detention without charge of alleged terrorists, including leaders of so-called ‘domestic radical groups" (meaning antiwar activists), who are now categorized as a threat to Homeland Security.

While "expressing concern" regarding human rights violations, the so-called international community has nonetheless accepted the legitimacy of "the war on terrorism". Moreover, in the wake of 9/11, a significant section of the antiwar movement, while condemning the US-led war, continues to uphold the legitimacy of the "war on terrorism".

In turn, the UN has endorsed the "war on terrorism". Under the disguise of peacekeeping, the United Nations, in violation of its own charter and the Nuremberg jurisprudence on war crimes, is collaborating with the US led military coalition.

War Propaganda

The underlying objective of the media disinformation campaign is provide a humanitarian mandate to the US led war, while galvanizing public opinion in support of America's "war on terrorism" agenda. Racism and Xenophobia, including the arbitrary arrest of alleged terrorists, are an integral part war propaganda.

One of the main objectives of war propaganda is to "fabricate an enemy". As anti-war sentiment grows and the political legitimacy the Bush Administration falters, doubts regarding the existence of this illusive "outside enemy" must be dispelled.

Propaganda purports not only to drown the truth but also to "kill the evidence" on how this "outside enemy", namely Osama bin Laden’s Al Qaeda was fabricated and transformed into "Enemy Number One". The entire National Security doctrine centers on the existence of an "outside enemy" which is threatening the Homeland.

Possessing a "just cause" for waging war is central to the Bush administration's justification for invading and occupying both Afghanistan and Iraq.

The "war on terrorism" and the notion of "preemption" are predicated on the right to "self defense." They define "when it is permissible to wage war": jus ad bellum.

Jus ad bellum also serves to build a consensus within the Armed Forces command structures. It also serves to convince the troops that they are fighting for a "just cause". More generally, the Just War theory in its modern day version is an integral part of war propaganda and media disinformation, applied to gain public support for a war agenda.

In October 2001, when Afghanistan was bombed and later invaded, several "Progressives" largely upheld the Administration's "just cause" military doctrine. The "self-defense" argument was accepted at face value as a legitimate response to 9/11, without examining the fact that the US administration had not only supported the "Islamic terror network", it was also instrumental in the installation of the Taliban government in 1995-96. Moreover, the invasion of Afghanistan had been planned well in advance of September 11, 2001.

In the wake of 9/11, the antiwar movement against the illegal invasion of Afghanistan was isolated. The trade unions, civil society organizations had swallowed the media lies and government propaganda. They had accepted a war of retribution against Al Qaeda and the Taliban.

Media disinformation prevailed. People were misled as to the nature and objectives underlying the invasion of Afghanistan. Osama bin Laden and the Taliban were identified as the prime suspects of the 9/11 attacks, without a shred of evidence and without addressing the historical relationship between Al Qaeda and the US intelligence apparatus. In this regard, understanding 9/11 is crucial in formulating a consistent antiwar position.

The "war on terrorism" is the cornerstone of the America’s propaganda and media disinformation campaign. In an utterly absurd logic Al Qaeda is presented as an upcoming super-power, capable of waging a nuclear attack against the US.

The "War on Terrorism"

Amply documented, the war on terrorism is a fabrication. Al Qaeda is a US sponsored "intelligence asset". Saudi-born Osama bin Laden is a creation of U.S. foreign policy. He was recruited during the Soviet-Afghan war "ironically under the auspices of the CIA, to fight Soviet invaders." During the Cold War, but also in its aftermath, the CIA — using Pakistan’s Military Intelligence apparatus as a go-between —played a key role in training the Mujahideen.

With the active encouragement of the CIA and Pakistan’s ISI [Inter Services Intelligence], who wanted to turn the Afghan Jihad into a global war waged by all Muslim states against the Soviet Union, some 35,000 Muslim radicals from 40 Islamic countries joined Afghanistan’s fight between 1982 and 1992. Tens of thousands more came to study in Pakistani madrasahs. Eventually more than 100,000 foreign Muslim radicals were directly influenced by the Afghan jihad. (Ahmed Rashid, The Taliban: Exporting Extremism, Foreign Affairs, November-December 1999)

Both the Clinton and Bush administrations have supported the so-called "Militant Islamic Base", including Osama bin Laden’s Al Qaeda, as part of their military-intelligence agenda. The links between Osama bin Laden and the Clinton administration in Bosnia and Kosovo are well documented by congressional records.

Ironically, the U.S. Administration’s undercover military-intelligence operations in Bosnia were fully documented by the Republican Party. A lengthy Congressional report by the Republican Party Committee (RPC) published in 1997 accused the Clinton administration of having "helped turn Bosnia into a militant Islamic base" leading to the recruitment, through the so-called "Militant Islamic Network", of thousands of Mujahideen from the Muslim world:

The Clinton administration’s ‘hands-on’ involvement with the Islamic network’s arms pipeline included inspections of missiles from Iran by U.S. government officials … the Third World Relief Agency (TWRA), a Sudan-based, phoney humanitarian organization … has been a major link in the arms pipeline to Bosnia. … TWRA is believed to be connected with such fixtures of the Islamic terror network as Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman (the convicted mastermind behind the 1993 World Trade Centre bombing) and Osama bin Laden, a wealthy Saudi émigré believed to bankroll numerous militant groups. (Congressional Press Release, Republican, Party Committee (RPC), U.S. Congress, Clinton-Approved Iranian Arms Transfers Help Turn Bosnia into Militant Islamic Base, Washington DC, 16 January 1997. The original document is on the website of the U.S. Senate Republican Party Committee (Senator Larry Craig), at

http://www.senate.gov/~rpc/releases/1997/iran.htm; emphasis added.

Counter-Terrorism

The CIA has created it own terrorist organizations including "Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia" which is led by Abu Musab Al Zarqawi.

And at the same time, it creates its own terrorist warnings concerning the terrorist organizations, which it has itself created. In turn, it has developed a cohesive multibillion dollar counterterrorism program "to go after" these terrorist organizations.

Counterterrorism and war propaganda are intertwined. The propaganda apparatus feeds disinformation into the news chain. The terror warnings must appear to be "genuine". The objective is to present the terror groups as "enemies of America."

The underlying objective is to galvanize public opinion in support of America's war on terrorism" agenda.

The "war on terrorism" requires a humanitarian mandate. The war on terrorism is presented as a "Just War", which is to be fought on moral grounds "to redress a wrong suffered."

To reach its foreign policy objectives, the images of terrorism must remain vivid in the minds of the citizens, who are constantly reminded of the terrorist threat.

The propaganda campaign presents the portraits of the leaders behind the terror network. In other words, at the level of what constitutes an "advertising" campaign, "it gives a face to terror."

Fabricating Intelligence

The propaganda campaign has been supported by an extensive fabrication of intelligence.

Revelations regarding the controversial Downing Street Memorandum and the forged Niger uranium dossier are but the tip of the iceberg.

Known and documented prior to the invasion of Iraq, the substance of Colin Powell’s presentation to the UN Security Council was not only fabricated, it was actually based, in what constitutes a clear case of plagiarism, on a student’s text which had been "lifted" (copy and paste) from the internet:

A close textual analysis of the British Intelligence report quoted by Colin Powell in his [February 5, 2003] UN Address suggests that its UK authors had little access to first-hand intelligence sources and instead based their work on academic papers, which they selectively distorted.

The authors of the dossier are members of Tony Blair's Press Relations Office at Whitehall. Britain's Secret Service (MI6), either was not consulted, or more likely, provided an assessment that did not fit in with the politicians' argument. In essence, spin was being sold off as intelligence.

The bulk of the 19-page document (pp.6-16) had been directly copied without acknowledgement from an article in last [2002] September's Middle East Review of International Affairs entitled "Iraq's Security and Intelligence Network: A Guide and Analysis". The author of the piece is Ibrahim al-Marashi, a postgraduate student at the Monterey Institute of International Studies. He has confirmed to me that his permission was not sought by MI6; in fact, he didn't even know about the British document until I mentioned it to him.

Concluding remarks

The so-called "War on Terrorism" is a lie.

Amply documented, the pretext to wage this war is totally fabricated.

Realities have been turned upside down. Acts of war are heralded as "humanitarian interventions" geared towards restoring ‘democracy’.

Military occupation and the killing of civilians are presented as "peace-keeping operations."

The derogation of civil liberties under the so-called "anti-terrorist legislation" is portrayed as a means to providing "domestic security" and upholding civil liberties.

Meanwhile, the civilian economy is precipitated into crisis; expenditures on health and education are curtailed to finance the military-industrial complex and the police state.

Under the American Empire, millions of people around the world are being driven into abysmal poverty, and countries are transformed into open territories.

U.S. protectorates are installed with the blessing of the so-called "international community." "Interim governments" are formed. Political puppets designated by America’s oil giants are casually endorsed by the United Nations, which increasingly performs the role of a rubber-stamp for the U.S. Administration.

Reversing the tide of war can not be limited to a critique of the US war agenda. Ultimately what is at stake is the legitimacy of the political and military actors and the economic power structures, which ultimately control the formulation, and direction of US foreign policy.

While the Bush administration implements a "war on terrorism", the evidence (including mountains of official documents) amply confirms that successive U.S. administrations have supported, abetted and harbored international terrorism.

This fact, in itself, must be suppressed because if it ever trickles down to the broader public, the legitimacy of the so-called "war on terrorism" collapses "like a deck of cards." And in the process, the legitimacy of the main actors behind this system would be threatened.

How does one effectively break the war and police state agendas? Essentially by refuting the "war on terrorism" which constitutes the very foundations of the US national security doctrine.

A war agenda is not disarmed through antiwar sentiment. One does not reverse the tide by asking President Bush: "please abide by the Geneva Convention" and the Nuremberg Charter. Ultimately a consistent antiwar agenda requires unseating the war criminals in high office as first step towards disarming the institutions and corporate structure of the New World Order.

To break the Inquisition, we must also break its propaganda, its fear and intimidation campaign, which galvanizes public opinion into accepting the "war on terrorism".


Michel Chossudovsky is the author of the international best seller "The Globalization of Poverty " published in eleven languages. He is Professor of Economics at the University of Ottawa and Director of the Center for Research on Globalization which hosts the critically acclaimed website: www.globalresearch.ca . He is also a contributor to the Encyclopaedia Britannica.
galdur
So they designed the towers to withstand the impact
of a 707 but forgot the fuel?

This is simply ridiculous.

For those who have never seen pictures of aircraft crashes:

Most of the fuel burns up quickly in an explosion. WTC was no
exception.
Common Sense
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 04:47 PM)
Photos of Impact Damage to the North Tower From the Northeast

These photographs show the North Tower impact hole shortly after the jetliner impact

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/p...wtc1fires7.html

------------------------------------

No sign at all of the building being un-aligned.

The aluminium siding around the impact area
is pretty much undisturbed.

Wanted: better govt. fairy tales.

That's the stupidest thing I've heard so far... I show a picture of CLEAR evidence the building is pulled in on one side and you show a picture of another side. WELL! I guess if one side which TRUSSES HAVE BEEN CRUSHED JUST AFTER IMPACT isn't pulling the outer columns in then on the other side WHERE THE FIRE IS and much later in the day the trusses couldn't have weakened.

Methinks someones is desperately trying to hold on to fantacy. blink.gif
galdur
Furthermore; steel conducts heat rather well
and each tower contained 200 thousand tons
of the stuff - a gigantic heat sink.

The notion that an office fire (the fuel had burned
up after 15 minutes, even FEMA is forced to admit
that) could weaken the steel and lead to a total
disintigration of these massive structures is simply
ludicrous. Frankly it strains belief that people would
sit on a science thread and present such nonsense.
galdur
QUOTE (Common Sense+Dec 30 2005, 04:59 PM)
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 04:47 PM)
Photos of Impact Damage to the North Tower From the Northeast

These photographs show the North Tower impact hole shortly after the jetliner impact

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/p...wtc1fires7.html

------------------------------------

No sign at all of the building being un-aligned.

The aluminium siding around the impact area
is pretty much undisturbed.

Wanted: better govt. fairy tales.

That's the stupidest thing I've heard so far... I show a picture of CLEAR evidence the building is pulled in on one side and you show a picture of another side. WELL! I guess if one side which TRUSSES HAVE BEEN CRUSHED JUST AFTER IMPACT isn't pulling the outer columns in then on the other side WHERE THE FIRE IS and much later in the day the trusses couldn't have weakened.

Methinks someones is desperately trying to hold on to fantacy. blink.gif

Laughable nonsense.
galdur
The other day I pointed out that the floor slab was
steel-reinforced ie. it sat on a corrugated steel pan.
Some idiot claimed that the steel was removed after
the concrete hardened which is total bunk.

It's always the same story, some people here refuse
to accept that the official conspiracy theory is physically
impossible in every way. You present them with major
facts they didn't have a clue about such as the steel pans
and it doesn´t mean a thing to them or their fairy tales.
Common Sense
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 04:56 PM)
So they designed the towers to withstand the impact
of a 707 but forgot the fuel?

This is simply ridiculous.

For those who have never seen pictures of aircraft crashes:

Most of the fuel burns up quickly in an explosion. WTC was no
exception.

Your a moron, HE SAID IT HIMSELF!

It is impressive that the World Trade Center towers held up as long as they did after being attacked at full speed by Boeing 767 jets, because they were only designed to withstand a crash from the largest plane at the time: the smaller, slower Boeing 707. And according to Robertson, the 707's fuel load was not even considered at the time. Engineers hope that answering the question of exactly why these towers collapsed will help engineers make even safer skyscrapers in the future. ASCE will file its final report soon, and NIST has been asked to conduct a much broader investigation into the buildings' collapse.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/minu-trans.html

Another pimp style, back handed bitch slap of reality.

user posted image

You see who's being ridiculous now?
galdur
Unlike you the designers knew that in aircraft crashes
most of the fuel burns up quickly in an explosion. So they didn't
consider it significant. And it wasn´t. The notion that
they forgot about the fuel is ridiculous. There is a way
in which the plane gets there - clearly. It contains fuel.
Even though you evidently aren´t clear about this most
other people are.
galdur
The World Trade Center towers were like huge sails in the wind. These sails had to be able to resist the 140 mile per hour winds of a hurricane. Such hurricane force winds exerted a large (some 6000 tons) lateral force on the building. This lateral force is called the wind loading (or force of the wind) on the building. According to the "official" story, the only possible intermediate support comes from the flimsy trusses and the lightweight concrete floors. The WTC was designed to survive a 45 pounds per square foot, wind loading. This translates to a 12 x 207 x 45/2000 = 56 ton force on each of the floor segments. What this 56 ton force on each floor segment means, is that if one was to lay the World Trade Center on its side and use the pull of gravity as a substitute for the push of the wind, then each of the 110 floors would need to be loaded with a 56 ton block of steel (so the entire wall would have to support 110 such blocks of steel, that is, 110 x 56 = 6160 tons in total).
Common Sense
QUOTE
I said: They never took the impact removing the fire proofing into account or the fuel of a 707 burning on impact. I heard the architect say it himself. I believe the interview is on PBS.


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
I said: They never took the impact removing the fire proofing into account or the fuel of a 707 burning on impact. I heard the architect say it himself. I believe the interview is on PBS.


galdur said: So they designed the towers to withstand the impact
of a 707 but forgot the fuel?

This is simply ridiculous.


QUOTE
I said: It is impressive that the World Trade Center towers held up as long as they did after being attacked at full speed by Boeing 767 jets, because they were only designed to withstand a crash from the largest plane at the time: the smaller, slower Boeing 707. And according to Robertson, the 707's fuel load was not even considered at the time. Engineers hope that answering the question of exactly why these towers collapsed will help engineers make even safer skyscrapers in the future. ASCE will file its final report soon, and NIST has been asked to conduct a much broader investigation into the buildings' collapse.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/minu-trans.html



galdur's credibility in real time -> user posted image

user posted image

That's for talking down to me. wink.gif
Guest_yesitdid
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 04:59 PM)
Furthermore; steel conducts heat rather well
and each tower contained 200 thousand tons
of the stuff - a gigantic heat sink.

The notion that an office fire (the fuel had burned
up after 15 minutes, even FEMA is forced to admit
that) could weaken the steel and lead to a total
disintigration of these massive structures is simply
ludicrous. Frankly it strains belief that people would
sit on a science thread and present such nonsense.

Hmmm, makes one wonder why they bothered with all that pesky, expensive, yet apparently unneccessary fire insulation at all.
galdur
QUOTE (Common Sense+Dec 30 2005, 05:21 PM)
[QUOTE=galdur,Dec 30 2005, 05:14 PM] Unlike you the designers knew that in aircraft crashes
most of the fuel burns up in an explosion. So they didn't
consider it significant. And it wasn´t. The notion that
they forgot about the fuel is ridiculous. [/QUOTE]

[quote]I said: They never took the impact removing the fire proofing into account or the fuel of a 707 burning on impact. I heard the architect say it himself. I believe the interview is on PBS.[/quote]

[quote]galdur said: So they designed the towers to withstand the impact
of a 707 but forgot the fuel?

This is simply ridiculous.[/quote]

[quote]I said: It is impressive that the World Trade Center towers held up as long as they did after being attacked at full speed by Boeing 767 jets, because they were only designed to withstand a crash from the largest plane at the time: the smaller, slower Boeing 707. And according to Robertson, the 707's fuel load was not even considered at the time. Engineers hope that answering the question of exactly why these towers collapsed will help engineers make even safer skyscrapers in the future. ASCE will file its final report soon, and NIST has been asked to conduct a much broader investigation into the buildings' collapse.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/minu-trans.html
[/quote]


galdur's credibility in real time -> user posted image [/QUOTE]

user posted image

That's for talking down to me. wink.gif

You are an idiot sitting on a science board displaying
total lack of understanding of basic physics. What do
you expect for it? Respect?
Guest_yesitdid
One wonders if frater will ever actually post anything having to do with physics rolleyes.gif
galdur
QUOTE (Guest_yesitdid+Dec 30 2005, 05:21 PM)
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 04:59 PM)
Furthermore; steel conducts heat rather well
and each tower contained 200 thousand tons
of the stuff - a gigantic heat sink.

The notion that an office fire (the fuel had burned
up after 15 minutes, even FEMA is forced to admit
that) could weaken the steel and lead to a total
disintigration of these massive structures is simply
ludicrous. Frankly it strains belief that people would
sit on a science thread and present such nonsense.

Hmmm, makes one wonder why they bothered with all that pesky, expensive, yet apparently unneccessary fire insulation at all.

Skycraper design is massively redundant
as most people realize.
Guest_yesitdid
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 05:25 PM)
QUOTE (Guest_yesitdid+Dec 30 2005, 05:21 PM)
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 30 2005, 04:59 PM)
Furthermore; steel conducts heat rather well
and each tower contained 200 thousand tons
of the stuff - a gigantic heat sink.

The notion that an office fire (the fuel had burned
up after 15 minutes, even FEMA is forced to admit
that) could weaken the steel and lead to a total
disintigration of these massive structures is simply
ludicrous. Frankly it strains belief that people would
sit on a science thread and present such nonsense.

Hmmm, makes one wonder why they bothered with all that pesky, expensive, yet apparently unneccessary fire insulation at all.

Skycraper design is massively redundant
as most people realize.

Hardly answers the question.

IF the steel was sufficient to transfer the heat from a fuel fire or an office fire to cooler regions and therefore keep the temp of the steel below that at which its strength would be compromised then WHY bother with the expense of installing spray on fire-proofing?
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