QUOTE (galdur+Dec 23 2005, 08:11 PM)
Just a note since I haven't seen anyone mention it.
The WTC floor diaphragms consisted of concrete slabs poured onto corrugated steel pans. So the floors consisted of concrete AND steel, clearly making the official pancake conspiracy theory absolutely nonsensical.
IIRC the pupose of those corrugated steel pans is orginally , concrete forms. They provide little in the way of structural stability to the floor since all they were required to do was take the weight of the cement mix until it hardened.
The WTC floor diaphragms consisted of concrete slabs poured onto corrugated steel pans. So the floors consisted of concrete AND steel, clearly making the official pancake conspiracy theory absolutely nonsensical.
IIRC the pupose of those corrugated steel pans is orginally , concrete forms. They provide little in the way of structural stability to the floor since all they were required to do was take the weight of the cement mix until it hardened.
yesitdid
Dec 23 2005, 08:44 PM
QUOTE
They provide little in the way of structural stability to the floor since all they were required to do was take the weight of the cement mix until it hardened.
This is definitely wrong. If you go back to page 4 or 5 you can see that I (Jon Pratt) have worked both as a setting out engineer and as as a structural engineer, from 1989 to 1995. The cement is supported in-situ normally with plywood, although sometimes with metal barriers (shuttering), both coated with a non-stick liquid called mold oil. The steel mesh embedded within the cement is not called reinforcement steel for nothing, without mentioning the physical impossibility of reinforcement steel (normally between 5-20 mm diameter lengths) holding up any quantity whatsoever of liquid cement.
I'm not going to speculate about the reasons for this undeniable error, you only need to know it is not true.
nice metaphor zoktoberfest
p.s concrete normally is chosen by it's strength. I remember working a lot with forty and fifty NEWTON strength cement, if that's help to anyone.
p.p.s any structural engineer that accepts the "official conspiracy theory" regarding the building collapses is one of the following...
a)too afraid to accept the truth
c) being paid to do
d)all of the above
QUOTE (yesitdid+Dec 23 2005, 08:44 PM)
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 23 2005, 08:11 PM)
Just a note since I haven't seen anyone mention it.
The WTC floor diaphragms consisted of concrete slabs poured onto corrugated steel pans. So the floors consisted of concrete AND steel, clearly making the official pancake conspiracy theory absolutely nonsensical.
IIRC the pupose of those corrugated steel pans is orginally , concrete forms. They provide little in the way of structural stability to the floor since all they were required to do was take the weight of the cement mix until it hardened.
Pretty desperate.
Thank you Frater Plecticus.
.
Such soundwaves would be part of the spectrum of soundwaves produced during the collapse chaos in question. So no.....most of the " plaster/concrete" shattering/pulverisation you mentioned most probably occurred MECHANICO-ACCOUSTICALLY rather through PYROLYSIS (thermally).
RC.
.
Rc,
What exactly would be causing these frequencies? Sounds like fires are better then controlled demolition with explosives.
.
Such soundwaves would be part of the spectrum of soundwaves produced during the collapse chaos in question. So no.....most of the " plaster/concrete" shattering/pulverisation you mentioned most probably occurred MECHANICO-ACCOUSTICALLY rather through PYROLYSIS (thermally).
RC.
.
Rc,
What exactly would be causing these frequencies? Sounds like fires are better then controlled demolition with explosives.
.
Hi Guest.
I can only assume that you are being funny rather than deliberately obtuse.
Because I referred to 'collapse chaos'...and NOT to 'collapse initiation'. The chaos of collapse-impacts would produce a wide spectrum of soundwave types...with the most destructive ones being those which are 'resultant' soundwaves where CONSTRUCTIVE INTERFERENCE' would produce extremely STRONG/HIGH-ENERGY-DENSITY soundwaves capable of almost 'explosive-effect' damage to anything coinciding with the 'locations' of such Constructive-Interference' resultant-waves.
Even 'original' (unre-inforced) soundwaves would be capable of shattering/pulverising such material as we are speaking off; so imagine what RE-INFORCED waves from constructive-interference processes would do during the COLLAPSE chaos.
RC
RC - I don't remember your post re: GE and/or Dynamic Ram Wing Aerofoils ( and it's a 'little' off-topic from wtc discussion), but I'll just say this... as you seem interested in this area...
The concept relies on developing a near surface aerodynamic ram-wing 'cushion' (in very simple terms), and is not really dependant upon normal free-flight parameters for stability in exactly the same ways as aircraft. Canards have been tried in GE / aerofoil boats, do not enhance pitch stability, and have more often than not upset the balances. (They work pretty well on Unlimited Hydroplanes though).
That is why you always see GE / Aerofoil Boats with a large high-set T-tail which gives them kind of a scorpion look.

While in GE, this is a far more effective means of controlling 'pitch'. It's not really a topic for discussion here, but...If you are really interested in this phenomena there is more examples and information on the following pages...
http://www.samolet.co.uk/ekranoplan.html
http://foxxaero.homestead.com/indwig.html
http://www.se-technology.com/wig/html/main...pen=hist&code=0
http://www.se-technology.com/wig/index.php
http://www.beriev.com/eng/photos4_e.html
Here's a model of the Bariev (Russian) super-heavy Type C 'WiGE'... (not actually an Aerofoil Boat but rather a heavy transport 'sea-plane') which employs GE design for take-off / landings...

The Russians have always been years ahead of the US (and everyone else) in this technology.
That's all I'm going to say about GE on this thread.
BTW... I think your 'soundwave' stuff is as illogical as your GE stuff
(no offense intended) I will admit that I am not a sound-wave expert by any means, nor have I researched this area... it just 'sounds' like boogie-woogie to me the way you have presented it. 
RC - I don't remember your post re: GE and/or Dynamic Ram Wing Aerofoils ( and it's a 'little' off-topic from wtc discussion), but I'll just say this... as you seem interested in this area...
The concept relies on developing a near surface aerodynamic ram-wing 'cushion' (in very simple terms), and is not really dependant upon normal free-flight parameters for stability in exactly the same ways as aircraft. Canards have been tried in GE / aerofoil boats, do not enhance pitch stability, and have more often than not upset the balances. (They work pretty well on Unlimited Hydroplanes though).
That is why you always see GE / Aerofoil Boats with a large high-set T-tail which gives them kind of a scorpion look.

While in GE, this is a far more effective means of controlling 'pitch'. It's not really a topic for discussion here, but...If you are really interested in this phenomena there is more examples and information on the following pages...
http://www.samolet.co.uk/ekranoplan.html
http://foxxaero.homestead.com/indwig.html
http://www.se-technology.com/wig/html/main...pen=hist&code=0
http://www.se-technology.com/wig/index.php
http://www.beriev.com/eng/photos4_e.html
Here's a model of the Bariev (Russian) super-heavy Type C 'WiGE'... (not actually an Aerofoil Boat but rather a heavy transport 'sea-plane') which employs GE design for take-off / landings...

The Russians have always been years ahead of the US (and everyone else) in this technology.
That's all I'm going to say about GE on this thread.
BTW... I think your 'soundwave' stuff is as illogical as your GE stuff
(no offense intended) I will admit that I am not a sound-wave expert by any means, nor have I researched this area... it just 'sounds' like boogie-woogie to me the way you have presented it. 
.
Hi Foxx!
I think that post was in the 'Pentagon' thread. And the 'ground effect' (GE) was long-recognised BEFORE anyone thought of designing 'stub-wing' low-air-craft to take full advantage of it (some World War II aircraft were devilishly hard to 'ground' when trying to land when empty because they were TOO GOOD at staying in GE, hehehe). As to the Russian 'lead', it is not disputed that they had a 'working experimental craft' before anyone else. But perhaps the reason no-one else was really interested in such craft is their vulnerability (at the smaller 'scales' at least) to sudden wind/wave interference/impacts/upsets at high speeds....there ARE such things as 'rogue waves' which suddenly rear up out of nowhere in the oceans due to EXACTLY that thing I was talking about: CONSTRUCTIVE INTERFERENCE between two or more 'coinciding' (in this case) ocean-WAVES, hehehe....not to mention such things as SUDDEN DOWNWARDS-ACTING AIR-CURRENT 'MICRO-BURSTS' which leave low-flying aircraft with little downward manouevring 'trajectory-time/space' to recover (and such 'practically-on-the-deck' "ground-effect flying" craft would have NO HOPE of recovery in such circumstances). And the 'ram-air' from engine exhaust etc. is merely an added bonus to underwing air density/pressure to that which would exist anyway...it merely helps to [a] 'raise' the underwing height limit for when 'ground-effect' becomes active or[b] to reduce the main-wing area (and/or velocity) which would otherwise need to be greater without the 'ram air' input. It may also interest readers that there have been 'designs' for 'aircraft-carrier' scale GE craft which would be less vulnerable and more fuel and ground-flight efficient (as well as having sufficient wing area for short BURSTS of 'island/obstruction' HOPPING arc-trajectory 'flights' OUT of GE 'mode').
Sorry, mate, if my 'hurried' posts come across as gobbledy-gook to you, hehehe..can't be helped with the time constraints I'm working under at the moment (I'm posting stuff from memory; as I don't have the time to chase up and cut/paste from reference material). And don't worry, I'm not offended by your 'non-acceptance' of my observations as to ultrasound etc pulverisation techniques/processes. After all, while you admit to not being at all familiar with such things, I on the other hand have had occassion to research these and MANY other things throughout my 'trouble-shooting' career from age nine. If anyone here wishes to familiarise themselves with such things as these to the same extent as I have had problem-solving reasons to do in the past, I shall be only too glad, time permitting, to discuss these things further...as there are many interesting phenomena/possibilities involved in these two somewhat arcane subjects...but i think my commitments in the T.O.E. "special project" will make such in-depth discussions here impossible for the time being...pity. I'll keep 'surfing' through here, though, and continue to comment on anything that strikes me as interesting. Ciao, mate!
Have a good holiday, folks!
RealityCheck.
.
They provide little in the way of structural stability to the floor since all they were required to do was take the weight of the cement mix until it hardened.
This is definitely wrong. If you go back to page 4 or 5 you can see that I (Jon Pratt) have worked both as a setting out engineer and as as a structural engineer, from 1989 to 1995. The cement is supported in-situ normally with plywood, although sometimes with metal barriers (shuttering), both coated with a non-stick liquid called mold oil. The steel mesh embedded within the cement is not called reinforcement steel for nothing, without mentioning the physical impossibility of reinforcement steel (normally between 5-20 mm diameter lengths) holding up any quantity whatsoever of liquid cement.
I'm not going to speculate about the reasons for this undeniable error, you only need to know it is not true.
As the construction diagrams show, the concrete floors of the WTC were NOT reinforced with steel mesh.
Arthur
They provide little in the way of structural stability to the floor since all they were required to do was take the weight of the cement mix until it hardened.
This is definitely wrong. If you go back to page 4 or 5 you can see that I (Jon Pratt) have worked both as a setting out engineer and as as a structural engineer, from 1989 to 1995. The cement is supported in-situ normally with plywood, although sometimes with metal barriers (shuttering), both coated with a non-stick liquid called mold oil. The steel mesh embedded within the cement is not called reinforcement steel for nothing, without mentioning the physical impossibility of reinforcement steel (normally between 5-20 mm diameter lengths) holding up any quantity whatsoever of liquid cement.
I'm not going to speculate about the reasons for this undeniable error, you only need to know it is not true.
As the construction diagrams show, the concrete floors of the WTC were NOT reinforced with steel mesh.
Arthur
Construction diagrams, what are you talking about? Are the blue prints available with specifications?
And the anonymous ignoramus speak volumes about the education system in whatever country this particular 'brainiac' speaks from. And by the way "reality debit", I have no 'associates' on this forum or in any other sphere of my life/work; I am independent and work strictly alone, and like it that way...both any mistakes or accomplishments of mine are solely my own and nobody else's, thanks very much. Too bad about your own lack of manners and education/knowledge about these matters. In any case, it matters not one whit what your opinion is about anything I have said, because you are obviously irrelevant and surplus to requirements in ANY discussion between intelligent individuals on this forum. Don't call us, we'll call you. Ciao.
okay, RC. whatever you say.
you are the AUTHORITY. when you say it's so, it's so, because you are 'reality check'.
tell me more about these destructive soundwaves? why hasn't the military harnessed this obvious destructive force?
i'm 'newton' here, okay? you can direct your insults to me more directly, now, reality challenged.
i don't like being rude, i am mostly just reacting to the rudeness of government apologists and whatnot.
okay, genius. here's the million(trillion, even) dollar question...
how did tower seven fall with no resistance from the structure and no resistance from AIR?!
soundwaves, maybe?
no one is irrelevent, in my opinion. reality is a vast mesh of interconnectedness. much like the heavy steel frames of the twin towers.
seeing as you're so smart, why don't you educate me as to how much energy would be required to keep molten steel in a molten state for weeks on end, if the liquid steel was buried underneath tons of rubble, and how large would the pool have to be to retain this mysterious steel melting heat?
and indeed, where did the heat come from in the first place? sound?
why don't you show me how soundwaves can melt steel. look out iran, ...we've got woofers and tweeters comin' your way.
why don't you tell me how a gravity driven collapse can create pyroclastic flows(sound?).
why don't you tell me why most people don't even know that tower seven fell? (oh, wait... i know that one. it's because the 'news you can trust' never TOLD ANYONE. no sound, there.)
why don't you show me how angular momentum can just disappear?
you should probably just ignore me if you value your intellectual one-upmanship.
A MUSHROOM CLOUD
What really happened at Port Chicago in 1944, a nuclear explosion?
By Harry V. Martin
Copyright FreeAmerica and Harry V. Martin, 1995
Everyone within a 50-mile radius of Port Chicago - located in Contra Costa County, felt a tremendous blast. At first most residents in the Bay Area, including Napa County, thought it was an earthquake. The night was Monday, July 17, 1944. Port Chicago has now been named the Concord Naval Weapons Station.
The Hiroshima blast was a year later, in August 1945. Not until the Hiroshima and the Nagasaki blasts was the general population of the world aware of terms such as "bright white light" and "mushroom cloud" in reference to a military explosion.
The coincidences and the oddities surrounding the Port Chicago explosion are only surfacing today. Some of those are:
The U.S. claimed it could not test the Hiroshima bomb because it only had a small supply of U-235, allowing for the making of only two bombs. Records obtained from the U.S. Government indicate that enough U-235 existed in 1944 to make several bombs, and more in 1945.
The head of Port Chicago was promoted to commodore immediately after the explosion and also headed up tests in the Pacific, and was also aboard the Enola Gay when it dropped the bomb on Hiroshima. After Hiroshima he was made a rear admiral. He was Captain Parsons - who had been stationed at Los Alamos Laboratories before the explosion at Port Chicago.
Liberty ships were loaded while crews remained aboard the vessel. The Liberty ship that exploded at Port Chicago had no crew aboard.
Documents from Los Alamos show that at the time of the Port Chicago explosion it was believed that the only way to deliver an atomic bomb to the enemy was by ship, detonating in the harbor. It was called the Hydrodynamic Theory of Surface Explosions.
Records of contents of two box cars unloaded at Port Chicago are missing. A complete list of all box cars were kept - except those two. Did it contain the 9000 pound bomb?
Port Chicago was rebuilt in one week after its destruction. Two hundred black sailors died in the explosion.
There was a Navy mutiny at Port Chicago after the blast.
The Navy was photographing the entire blast from across the Bay.
In a top secret report on a nuclear detonation after Port Chicago, the notes state that it was a "Port Chicago-type" explosion in similarity and form.
One of the highest rates of cancer in the United States is in Contra Costa County.
The story seems too incredible to believe - that the U.S. would test a weapon on itself. In order to ascertain the truth of this matter, one must study old reports. In the beginning of this series, the simplest reports to study are the uncensored news reports of local newspapers, such as the St. Helena Star and the Napa Journal - The Napa Journal was bought out in the 1950's and became the Napa Register. These eye witness reports were made in the pre-atomic age, when no one knew about atomic weapons - what they were, how they worked, what devastation they created, what they looked like, or for that matter, that they even existed. It was one of the most closely guarded top secrets of World War Two.
"One of the few to see the flash from here was Tom Street, who happened to be standing in the patio if his Spring Mountain home when the blast came," reported the July 21, 1944 edition of the St. Helena Star. "First there was a sudden mushroom of white light, followed an instant later by another, then a few moments later the intense roar and the concussion of the blast. At the rate of about a mile for every 5 seconds, it required a little over 4 minutes for the blast to reach St. Helena." In another account in the same newspaper, it states. "The force of the explosion was felt at the Mt. St. Helena observation tower, but apparently the range of the mountains at the end of the valley stopped the concussion, for Lake County residents didn't feel it."
"The hills of the Napa Valley were momentarily illuminated by sunlight." reported the Napa Journal.
Differences in nuclear explosions - Port Chicago blast re-examined
By Harry V. Martin
Second in a Series
Copyright, The Napa Sentinel, 1990
A major disaster, such as that of Port Chicago, can always remain a mystery - and often time sparks the interest of "conspiracy theorists." In most cases, time erodes the evidence, But in the case of Port Chicago time has not wiped out the evidence - the U.S. military and scientific community are good record keepers. Because of the existing records on Port Chicago, the court martial of 50 black sailors, various records from Los Alamos, and reports from nuclear agencies and the media provide a succinct road map to the Port Chicago disaster.
The local news accounts of the blast on July 17, 1944, all focus on a flashing bright light and a mushroom cloud - all written before the general public or the news media were even aware of the dawn of the nuclear age. One of the critical points of contention in the theory that Port Chicago's explosion may have been nuclear, is the radiation factor. The purported bomb would have been a low-yield weapon detonated in shallow water. One of the key authorities on the effect of nuclear weapons is a publication prepared by the United States Department of Defense and published by the United States Atomic Energy Commission in April 1962. Entitled, "The Effects of Nuclear Weapons", the publication states on page 60, "There may well be some fallout or rainout onto the surface of the water (or a ship or shore station) from the radioactive base surge, but in many cases it is expected to pass over without depositing any debris. Thus, according to circumstances, there may or may not be radioactive contamination on the surfaces of objects in the vicinity of a shallow underwater nuclear burst." The theory advanced by Peter Vogel - who is a journalist and who also studied physics with nuclear physicist Edward Teller - is that a nuclear weapon was in the hold of a Liberty Ship.
But before entering Vogel's scenario, which has some contradiction with official records, it is important to note how Vogel was drawn to such a theory. It started innocently enough in Santa Fe, New Mexico - a town across the Rio Grande from Los Alamos. Vogel was at a rummage sale conducted by the Christ Evangelical Lutheran Church. At the bottom of a box of equipment, which had been donated to the church, he found a photocopied document taken from Los Alamos Laboratories in the Autumn of 1944 - a few months after the Port Chicago explosion. The document is entitled, "History of 10,000 ton gadget."
Vogel traced the document to Paul Masters, who was employed at the Laboratories as a photographic darkroom technician and photographer. Part of Masters' duties was to operate a large blueprint-type machine upon which were made copies of bomb drawings and other originals too large for conventional copying machines. The document is the earliest known description of the progression of the explosion of an atomic bomb. It is very concise and contains previously top secret information about the actual design of an atomic bomb. On the bottom line in Step 11, the document reads, "Ball of fire mushroom out at 18,000 ft, in typical Port Chicago fashion." The Port Chicago explosion was characterized by a brilliant white flash, and a ball of fire which mushroomed out above Suisun Bay to an observed altitude of 10,000 feet before its ascent was obscured by the dark of night.
What is so important about this particular document? It compared a hypothetical nuclear explosion to the actual explosion at Port Chicago, possibly implying that the Port Chicago disaster, itself may have been due to a nuclear detonation. Vogel found that document in 1980 - he has followed the trail of Port Chicago ever since.
The U.S. government had never made an official "finding" on Port Chicago. It speculated that the black sailors had handled the ammunition carelessly. One factor the U.S. government has been emphatic about, is that there was not sufficient U-235 in 1945, and that the Hiroshima bomb was dropped untested. If there was not sufficient U-235 available to make a bomb, how could Vogel theorize that the Port Chicago blast was nuclear?
Apparently few, if anyone, had bothered to check the records of the United States Department of Energy on U-235 production. The results are very surprising - and reflect on the possibility that the U.S. government was not forthright in its statements. The minimum critical mass for U-235 is approximately 15.5 kilograms. The Hiroshima bomb might have contained up to 60 kilograms of U-235. In checking the official data from the Enriching Operations Division of the Department of Energy at Oak Ridge, the records reveal that in 1943 the U.S. had 74 kg. of U-235 available for a bomb - six times that of the minimum requirement. By 1944 it had 93 kg. or seven times the minimum, and by 1945, 289 kg. were available. According to official government records, sufficient U-235 was processed in 1944 - the date of the Port Chicago blast - to make six minimum nuclear bombs.
The American public has grown to visualize nuclear weapons being dropped from B-29s or from missiles. But in 1944, at the time of the Port Chicago blast, the belief was that the United States did not have any type of aircraft capable of carrying a bomb, nor airfields close enough to Japan to carry such a weapon. The B-29 was not operational, nor was the island of Tinian, in the Mariana Islands, under U.S. control. Documents from Los Alamos show that at the time of the Port Chicago explosion, it was believed that the only way to deliver an atomic bomb to the enemy was by ship, detonating it in the harbor. It was called the Hydrodynamic Theory of Surface Explosions.
Vogel's theory, based on the documents he had found - compared with official government documents and eye witness reports - is plausible. But a lot more evidence is needed. Has that evidence been found? If Vogel's theories are totally false, why then is a Bay Area television station preparing a documentary. Several major news organizations are after the story and why has the U.S. Government suddenly retroactively reclassified Technical Paper #6 entitled Port Chicago Explosion so that it is now top secret after nearly half a century?
Cause of Port Chicago blast never determined
By Harry V. Martin
Third in a Series
Copyright, The Napa Sentinel, 1990
At 10:18 p.m. on Monday evening, July 17, 1944, a giant explosion rocked Suisun Bay. The blast killed 320 Naval personnel and registered 3.4 on the Richter Scale in parts of Nevada. The Liberty Ship E. A. Bryan was being loaded at Port Chicago in northern Contra Costa County. Its reported cargo was 4600 tons of ammunition, including 1780 tons of high explosives. The nighttime explosion was reported as a bright white light over the sky of the San Francisco Bay Area, followed by a mushroom cloud and a strong concussion. Windows in Vacaville, Concord, Vallejo, Benicia, Martinez, Napa, and San Francisco were all blown out. Heavy doors and locks in Yountville and ship hatches at Mare Island were blown off because of the resulting concussion from the explosion.
Peter Vogel, a journalist and a man who also studied with the father of the American H-bomb, Dr. Edward Teller, told a KVON audience a few weeks ago that the explosion was that of a nuclear bomb and that it was purposefully set off as a test. Vogel's theory is based on the strength of the explosion, the secrecy after it happened, and documents from Los Alamos Laboratories which described a nuclear test blast as having simulated the Port Chicago explosion - that test was conducted a few months after the Port Chicago disaster. Of critical importance to Vogel's theory that the United States used its' own sailors as a test for the first nuclear device, was the number to explosions that occurred. He claims there was only one explosion.
THERE WERE TWO EXPLOSIONS - NOT ONE
News accounts in 1944 of eye witnesses all universally state there were two explosions. Articles from the Napa Journal, St. Helena Star Bulletin, Martinez Gazette, Vallejo Times Herald, Vallejo News-Chronicle, Oakland Tribune and San Francisco newspapers, all report two explosions. The Second explosion was mightier than the first. It was during the second explosion that the white flash and the mushroom cloud was reported.
In 1964 No Share the Glory was published by native Vallejoen Robert H. Pearson. Pearson's book, which was the untold story of the great Port Chicago disaster of 1944, focuses on black American sailors who mutinied after the Port Chicago explosion. Black sailors were not allowed to sail on U.S. warships during the war and were used for the task of loading munitions on the ships. Pearson's book describes the eye witness accounts of people who saw the Port Chicago blast first hand - from Coast Guard men on patrol, a tanker crew that was nearby, the commander of Port Chicago, and those who somehow escaped the carnage, but nontheless saw it happen.
Before the explosion, the E.A. Bryan was low in the water - heavily laden with tons of ammunition. When the Bryan exploded 323 men, five ships, a diesel engine, 16 boxcars and a small town were totally destroyed. Twelve other cities were damaged. Damage was reported as far away as 200 miles. Pearson stated on page 19 of his book. "It is estimated that the force of the blast was greater than that of a five kiloton atomic bomb." That estimate was provided in the 1960s - when the world knew atomic weapons. The contents that were loaded into the Bryan consisted of 4600 tons of fuses, Detonators, guncotton, and 10 tons of smokeless powder in bulk, The most critical and most unstable of the explosives on the ship's manifest - 1780 tons of high explosives - were loaded last. Hold Number One held incendiary bombs and small arms ammunition; Hold Number Two contained 3-inch 0.50 shells; Hold Number Three held serial bombs, some tail vanes and 5-inch 0.38 naval shells; and Hold Number Four contained fragmentation cluster bombs and a few 14-inch naval shells; The closed Hold Number Five was reported to have contained 40mm shells and small arms ammunition.
It is important to establish some critical historical points to embrace or reject Vogel's KVON discussion. The building of Port Chicago as a Naval Ammunitions Depot commenced in June 1943. The first loading pier was completed for use in May of 1944 - two days before the explosion - the Port was only 80 percent finished. the reason the Port had not been completed by then was the fact that there was a material and labor shortage - common in wartime.
NEW SHIP REFITTED
The Bryan had been launched at the Richmond Kaiser Shipyard in March 1944 and had just finished her maiden voyage to the South Pacific. Though it was a brand new ship, the Navy ordered the Bryan to dock at the Alameda shipyard two days before its reporting to Port Chicago. The Navy installed two 10-ton booms at the Number One and Number Five holds - replacing the 5-ton booms. The Captain of the Port in San Francisco, Lt. E. J. Carswell, boarded the Bryan and found it completely safe, and then issued a permit to load ammunition aboard the vessel.
The loading plan was filed. All the records of the munitions loaded aboard the Bryan are still available - except information about the contents of two box cars. The government claims that somehow, the record of those two boxcars are missing - yet they should have been part and parcel of the first manifest, which is still available.
Lt. Commander Glen Linqueist, naval inspection officer for the 12th Naval District, also found everything satisfactory aboard the Bryan prior to the loading of munitions. The new gear installed at Alameda Shipyards was also found to be in satisfactory working order.
Most of the crew from the Bryan took leave from the ship. On several occasions during the three day loading process, shells and bombs were accidentally dropped - but none resulted in any type of explosion or damage. Along side the Bryan was the S. S. Quinalt Victory, a 7606 ton vessel which had only been commissioned a week before the blast.
The Bryan was loaded with 5292 barrels of bunker C-type diesel fuel oil. The Navy had recently refitted the Bryan with a 10-ton crane to fit Holds Number One and Five. But, during the entire loading process, Hold Number Five remained closed. The Commander of Port Chicago, Captain Merril T. Kinne, was appointed to his post on April 12, 1944 - three months before the explosion.
What was the Bryan's destination? It was destined for Tinian, in the Mariana Islands. Tinian was where the Enola Gay took off to drop the first atomic bomb on Japan in 1945.
CAUSE NEVER OFFICIALLY DETERMINED BY NAVY
The actual cause of the Port Chicago disaster was never officially or publicly established. Three days after the explosion, Rear Admiral Carleton H. Wright, commander of the 12th Naval District, convened a board of inquiry in San Francisco. After hearing all the evidence, the board could not determine the exact cause or circumstance of the first explosion, but did issue a list of seven circumstances that might have caused the disaster.
"That the Naval and Coast Guard personnel killed or injured in this explosion and listed in the Finding of the Facts, were killed or injured in the line of duty and not because of their own misconduct. The probable cause of the first explosion listed in the order of chance are:
Presence of a supersensitive element which was detonated while handling.
Rough handling by a person or individuals. This might have happened at any stage of the loading process from the breaking out of the cars to the final stowage in the holds.
Failure of handling gear, such as the falling of a boom, failure of a block or a hook, parting of a whip, etc.
Collision of the switch engine with an explosive-loaded car, possibly in unloading.
An accidental incident to the carrying away of the mooring lines of the Quinalt Victory or the bollards which the Quinalt Victory was moored, resulting in damage to an explosive component.
The result of an act of sabotage. Although there is no proof to support sabotage as a possible cause, it cannot be eliminated as a possibility.
Eye witnesses reported seeing both ships secure and all gear in place moments before the first blast. The theory of the crane or equipment falling, or a ship loose from its mooring cannot be sustained by eye witnesses, thus eliminating those possibilities.
REMAINING PART OF SERIES
In the two remaining articles in this series, we will examine a unique report never made public before - The Computational Evaluation for the Energy Released in the Port Chicago Explosion: a different theory than Vogel claimed on KVON. Why nine German officers and two guard dogs are secretly buried in Benicia - having died within a short span of time from the Port Chicago blast: What scientists at Los Alamos deduce from the explosion: and some critical eye witness reports. Did this explosion in anyway impact the conduct of the waning years of World War Two? Those questions will be thoroughly examined in the remaining part of the series.
Evidence points to a Port Chicago nuclear device
By Harry V. Martin
Fourth in a Series
Copyright, The Napa Sentinel, 1990
The question of Port Chicago really comes down to two basic questions:
1. Was the Port Chicago blast caused by a nuclear explosion?
2. If it was, did the United States government purposely set off the bomb as a test?
These are the two allegations which were made on KVON radio by Peter Vogel, a journalist and a man who also studied with the father of the American H-Bomb, Dr. Edward Teller.
In previous articles we have discussed Vogel's theory, the impact of the blast, the history of the port and the ships involved, the findings of a Board of Review, eye witness accounts, and the fact - established by official records of the U.S. Department of Energy - that the U.S. government did have the capability of producing several nuclear weapons at the time of the Port Chicago blast - despite denials to the contrary. Now we're down to the nuts and bolts of answering the two basic questions involved. Technical Report No. 6. Army-Navy Explosives Safety Board, on the Port Chicago blast has been reclassified by Los Alamos Lab - it could answer at least one the questions asked. The Napa Sentinel is seeking the documents under the Federal Freedom of Information Act, and may file suit in federal court to have the documents declassified after 45 years.
A research paper was submitted on December 7, 1988 entitled Computational Evaluation for the Energy Released in the Port Chicago Explosion. This report evaluates the energy released by the 1944 explosion at Port Chicago on July 17, 1944. The explosion occurred while the Liberty ship E.A Bryan was loading 1780 tons of high explosives and 4600 tons of ammunition - the shipment was destined for Tinian - the island from which the Enola Gay took off enroute to dropping the first atomic bomb on Japan, the Hiroshima bomb was dropped 13 months after the Port Chicago explosion.
The research document creates the theoretical energy released at Port Chicago, based upon the calculation and probable energy source, using the 1780 tons of high explosive. The paper analyzes detonation of fuel, high explosives and a nuclear bomb. These sources are then compared to the probable energy expended into production of the Bay floor crater, heat energy and seismic energy caused by the 1944 explosion.
The report states simply, "If the probable energy expended markedly exceeded that which a chemical explosion could supply, then an additional source of energy (possible nuclear) must have been present." The report states, "It is not now possible to determine with certainty the precise nature of the 1944 explosion at Port Chicago. The reclassification of a pertinent document, Technical Report No. 6, Army-Navy Explosives Safety Board, prohibits any such definitive conclusions. However, given the size of the crater formed by the explosion and the distance the debris was scattered, a calculation of the theoretical explosive energy released can be compared to the probable source of the energy." The report uses a "worst case" scenario to the amount of energy generated. This means that the report provides the benefit of the doubt toward aspects subscribing to a non-nuclear explosion. For instance, it assumes that all 1780 tons of explosives were aboard the ship and went off high order (spontaneously) and all at full power). And that the ship's fuel was at capacity and detonated.
"At this point, the only conclusion to be drawn is a follows: While there may have been an additional explosive energy source present (such as a low yield nuclear device), the explosive energy derived from the conventional munitions is in agreement with the lower limit for the calculated total energy given-off by the explosion, and thus, the explosion might have been purely conventional (non-nuclear) in origin."
The specific facts the report could rely on were that the amount of explosives present was 1780 tons, and the size of the crater created by the explosion, was 66 feet deep, 300 feet wide and 700 feet long.
The report did discover that a measurement of the blast crater in 1944 had more than doubled in size by 1946 - indicating that the government may well have made every attempt to retrieve any remains or evidence still at the bottom of Suisun Bay. The report could not confirm the type of fuel used by the Bryan, but selected the probability of diesel fuel. The Sentinel has ascertained that the ship was indeed loaded with 5292 barrels of bunker C-type diesel fuel oil.
The report further states that Vogel's comment as to the fireball being white does not prove it was nuclear in origin. The report also states that it is unlikely that the fuel aboard the vessel caused the explosion.
The report estimates the magnitude of the blast was between (10)18 to (10)72 ergs. Is this the magnitude of a non-nuclear or a nuclear explosion? The report addresses that issue. If the Port Chicago disaster had been caused by a chemical explosion, the maximum energy expenditure would be expected to approach (10)18 ergs - the low end of the estimated magnitude of the Poet Chicago blast. the report qualifies that statement. "However, the likely expenditure for such a chemical explosion would be a fraction of this value, since the maximum value would require all the explosives and fuel to go off in high order fashion. If the Port Chicago disaster had been caused by a nuclear bomb, the energy expenditure would be expected to approach the order of (10)72 ergs."
"While the energy expenditure from a nuclear explosion fits this calculation of energy expenditure better than does the chemical explosion, a purely chemical explosion would have produced sufficient energy to be in agreement with the low end of the calculated range. Therefore, no conclusion can be drawn at this time as to the exact nature of the explosion: further information would be required to refine the calculated energy figure and reduce its uncertainty. Unfortunately, since this information has now been reclassified, calculation refinements are no longer possible," the report concludes.
So what we have in this report is the estimate of a magnitude. The only way a conventional explosion could have caused the blast was if everything had gone off at one time - something that is not too common in munitions explosions. Add this report to other information to:
the report of a nuclear explosion entitled, History of 10,000 ton gadget, which states on the bottom line of Step 11, "Ball of fire mushroom out a 18,000 ft, in typical Port Chicago fashion."
the reclassification four decades later of a report on the Port Chicago blast - which has no military value today:
and the top government scientists dispatched to Port Chicago after the blast, and their respective role in the building of nuclear weapons:
the specific destination of the Bryan - Tinian in the Mariana Islands, the same site the Enola Gay used to take off from to drop the first atomic bomb on Japan:
and the Hydrodynamic Theory of Surface Explosions, which indicated that the bomb would have to be delivered by surface ship because there was no aircraft that could carry the weight, and the U.S. did not have a close enough base to Japan for aircraft delivery.
There is very strong evidence to suggest that a nuclear weapon was indeed at Port Chicago - a bomb enroute to Tinian or some other South Pacific Island. But was Port Chicago a test for the bomb? Would the government purposely destroy a port that was only 80 percent completed? Would it destroy two brand new ships? Would it kill 320 U.S. Naval personnel?
Just because a nuclear weapon probably existed at Port Chicago does not mean the port was a test sight of the bomb. This question is explored in the final article on Tuesday.
CONCLUSION, PORT CHICAGO
By Harry V. Martin
Last of a Five Part Series
Copyright, The Napa Sentinel, 1990
More than two years before the United States entered World War II, Albert Einstein sent a letter to President Franklin D. Roosevelt, informing him that a nuclear bomb was possible. That letter was written on August 2, 1939. "A single bomb of this type, carried by boat and exploded in a port, might very well destroy the whole port together with some of the surrounding territory," Einstein wrote. "However, such bombs might very well prove to be too heavy for transportation by air."
U.S. government sources have verified that the two atomic bombs dropped on Japan in 1945 were transported to Tinian Airstrip in August 1945 enroute to bomb Hiroshima, the B29 barely made it off the ground. The bomb had to be armed in mid-flight. There have been persistent - yet unverified reports - that a heavily guarded compound at Mare Island during World War II contained components of a nuclear weapon.
Contrary to public belief, the final specifications of the atomic bomb used on Hiroshima had been completed by mid-February 1944. This is verified by a 600 page report on the Manhattan District History. The hardware for at least three of the Hiroshima-type weapons were ordered by the end of March, 1944.
STRONG EVIDENCE
There is very strong circumstantial evidence to indicate that a nuclear weapon was aboard one of two ships that blew up at Port Chicago on the evening of Monday, July 17. What makes the evidence so strong, is not only written documentation concerning the blast, but also the itinerary of key people in the nuclear community after the blast. A Los Alamos document that describes the testing of an atomic device - and all its parameters - clearly states in Step 11. "Ball of fire mushroom out at 18,000 ft. in typical Port Chicago fashion." The Los Alamos document, prepared a short time after the Port Chicago explosion, History of 10,000 Ton Gadget, provides 11 steps of a nuclear explosion: (Though you do not have to understand nuclear physics, follow the steps to the end.)
1. Detonation.
2. Detonation wave reaches temper 18,5 x 2,54 over 7 x 10.
3. Temp and active fully compressed.
4. Neutrons multiply and shock wave hits temper 18/2 x 10.
5. Shock wave passes through H.E. and case to reach air 74/2 x 10.
6. Radiation squirts out, temperature drops and isothermal sphere formed.
7. Strong blast wave expands.
8. Ball of fire fully expands.
9. Blast wave reaches damage area.
10. In a test, blast wave would reach installation and observers at 10,000 yards. Also ball of fire reached height of 2000 ft. and completely disintegrated into turbulent convection currents.
11. Ball of fire mushroom out at 18,000 ft in typical Port Chicago fashion.
The fact that this classified document on the testing of an atomic bomb came from Los Alamos and specifically refers to Port Chicago, is clear evidence of a nuclear device. But that is not all the evidence available.
CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS
In a classified document dated July 21, 1944 - four days after the Port Chicago explosion - there is more fragile evidence of something out of the ordinary. The District Intelligence Officer wrote confidential memorandum 11-3-16137 to the Commandant Twelfth Naval District. The report states, there were reports "of a shiny black car reported to have been seen at approximately 2130 (hours) at the foot of the pier, but no information was developed to indicate that any unauthorized vehicle of such description was seen to enter or leave the (Port Chicago) Naval Magazine at any time which might reasonably be connected with the explosion." The vehicle was not a Navy vehicle nor was its business explained, but it did have authorization to be near the pier, suggesting a top secret meeting. Were the occupants of the vehicle from the scientific community? There are possible links we will explore later in this article.
At the same time, the Navy was photographing Port Chicago from across the Bay - a safe distance from the explosion. The Navy captured the Port Chicago explosion on a nitrate-base film. That film was held in the safe of the Concord Naval Weapons Station. The Navy claims that the film was a simulation of the Port Chicago explosion filmed for Hollywood in the 1960s But nitrate-base film has not been produced since prior to 1950.
Though Peter Vogel, who theorized that a nuclear weapon existed at Port Chicago, was granted permission to review the film and obtain still shots - once his theory of an atomic weapon was known by the Navy, the film was destroyed. About the same time, a key document, Technical Report No. 6 on the Port Chicago Explosion was suddenly reclassified to top secret after years of being declassified. Some Los Alamos scientists have privately stated that the explosion at Port Chicago was caused by an atomic weapon.
TOP NUCLEAR SCIENTISTS INVESTIGATE PORT CHICAGO
Perhaps the most convincing aspect of the atomic bomb theory, is not what happened before the blast - but after. The test document, History of 10,000 Ton Gadget, was prepared by a group at the Los Alamos laboratories under the direction of Joseph O. Hirschfelder. His group's work is found in the Manhattan District History, Project Y. The Los Alamos Project. Vol. 1. 1944 I.A.M.S. 2532, Los Alamos 1961. The Manhattan Project has become known to the public as the building of the first atomic bomb. The Manhattan Project documents refer to work accomplished after August 1, 1944, and in particular the History of 10,000 Ton Gadget. Hirschfelder was given the responsibility for completing the earlier investigation of damage of the general phenomenology of a nuclear explosion. These investigations included the formation of the shock wave in the air, the radiation history of the early stages of the explosion, the formation of the ball of fire, the attenuation of the blast wave in air at great distances, and the effects of blast and radiation on human beings and structures.
Immediately following the Port Chicago explosion, a team of Los Alamos Laboratories scientists made an assessment of the Port Chicago explosion. There exists some 400 - 600 pages of reports and memoranda at Los Alamos which report the various parameters and artifacts of the Port Chicago explosion. U.S. Naval Captain William J. Parsons prepared the data and had them transmitted to Rear Admiral W. R. Purnell, who was a member of the Atomic Bomb Military Policy Committee, Admiral Purnell was Parsons' superior officer. Parsons was the bombing officer on board the Enola Gay, which dropped the U235 weapon over Hiroshima. In 1946 he was chairman of the Joint Crossroads Committee, which planned the Bikini test, and he was Deputy Task Force Commander for Technical Direction of the Bikini nuclear tests. Parsons was instrumental in designing, constructing and testing the world's first atomic bomb. He worked directly under J. Robert Oppenheimer.
Parsons authored a report on Port Chicago - Effects of the Tidal Wave in the Port Chicago Explosion. Throughout the investigation of the Port Chicago blast, the nuclear research laboratories at Los Alamos, the key figures in the building of the atomic bomb, all link to Port Chicago. Los Alamos also maintains copies of the records of 16 box cars that contained munitions for Port Chicago. The records of two of those box cars, however, are not available. Were they used to carry nuclear components?
It is reasonably safe to indicate, with reference to various articles already published in this series, that an atomic weapon did exist at Port Chicago at the time of the July 17, 1944 explosion. The next question, testing Vogel's theory, is: was Port Chicago used by the U.S. government to test the first atomic bomb?
A TEST OR AN ACCIDENT?
Vogel maintains that Port Chicago was used as a test site for the first atomic bomb. "If the explosion was filmed at the Port Chicago site, it would follow that the explosion was planned and anticipated." Vogel states. "There is very little doubt in my mind that the explosion and disaster which occurred at Port Chicago was the result of an intentional detonation of a U235 gun assembly weapon, which was conducted to demonstrate the effects of a surface delivery of that device to a harbor facility." But was it?
To explore Vogel's theory, it is necessary to take some of the elements used by Vogel. A large part of his theory rests on the insistence that there was only one explosion. In almost every report, newspaper articles of that time, or eyewitness statements, two explosions were reported. Those reports, articles and statements may be correct - while at the same time, Vogel's theory may also be correct. A nuclear explosion has two phases - the pressure phase and the suction phase. These two phases may actually sound like and appear to be two different explosions, when in fact it is the same explosion occurring seconds apart. Most witnesses have stated the explosions were about 45 seconds apart. They report that the dock blew up first and then the ship. Vogel's theory of one explosion cannot be discounted - nor can the two explosion theory.
If there were two explosions, there is a strong possibility of an accident in the loading of conventional ammunition aboard the E.A. Bryan, which in turn ignited the low-yield nuclear device which weighed approximately 9000 pounds.
RE-CREATING EVENTS
A re-creation of the events of July 17, 1944, are necessary to test Vogel's theory. The scenario presented is one that coincides with official classified Navy documents of the investigation, eye witness reports, newspaper reports, and other publications.
The ammunition depot at Port Chicago was only 80 percent completed, but was one of the main sources of supply for the Pacific fleet. The dock facilities could handle the largest ammunition carriers in the Navy. It was under the jurisdiction of the Naval Commander at Mare Island.
The E.A. Bryan docked at Port Chicago on July 13 and the loading of munitions began at 8:30 a.m. that morning and continued until the explosion 109 hours and 49 minutes later. Here is a list of the contents being loaded:
50.04 tons of 20-mm HEI Tetryl Cartridges.
50.09 tons of 5-inch 38-calibre Common Projectiles.
36 tons of 16-inch Tar. Mk2-4A Projectiles.
87.55 tons of 1000 lb. GP AN-M65 TNT Bombs.
106 tons of 1000 lb. AP AN-M33 Bombs.
26 tons of Fin assemblies for AN M-65 Bombs.
60.35 tons of incendiary Cluster M7.
97 tons of 350 lb. DB AN-Mk 47 Torpex Bombs.
93.52 tons of 100 lb. Fragmentation Cluster An-M4.
42 tons of 40-mm AP Tracer Cartridges.
The placement of the ammunition in the E.A. Bryan were as follows:
No. 1 hold - smoke bombs.
No. 2 hold - Torpex.
No. 3 hold - Tail fins for air bombs.
No. 4 hold - Fragmentation bombs.
No. 5 hold - 40-mm ammunition.
The Bryan's holds were as deep as a four-story building. The ship had only completed its maiden voyage earlier that year and had been refitted with 10-ton booms before arriving at Port Chicago.
Navy records indicate different problems plagued the loading of the E.A. Bryan. There had been trouble with the steam winches - which had no brakes, and meant that any cargo being hoisted could slam to the ground if steam power was lost at any time. There were also bearing and valve problems with the winches. More problems occurred when the crank bearing on the No. 2 winch began making a hammering noise - its bearing had to be replaced. On the day of the explosion a bleeder valve on the No. 4 winch had gone out and had to be repaired. A plumber repairing a nipple on the bleeder valve said upon completion of his repairs, "I don't like the look of things around here." The man had just observed one of the deck hands lose his grip on a shell - it dropped two feet and hit the deck with a thud.
The incendiary bombs had their activating mechanisms, or fuses, installed. They were considered "hot cargo" and were being loaded gingerly, one bomb at a time. "The men were having some difficulty getting the bombs out of the boxcar because they were wedged on so tightly," one officer testified.
AT THE HEARING
A Naval inquiry after the explosion called upon 125 witnesses to testify. At the hearing there was a major dispute centered on whether unsafe loading practices where employed at Port Chicago, and why no Coast Guard loading detail was present the night of the explosion. The Coast Guard and the Port Director's Office had inexperienced personnel who were unable to properly supervise the loading operation and created problems for the work.
Records also show that as early as October 1943, the Coast Guard warned the Port Director, "Conditions are bad up there (at Port Chicago), you've got to do something about itÉif you aren't careful, something's going to happen, and you'll be held responsible for it." An effort to bring in contract stevedores and experienced officers failed. The captain of the port decided to withdraw the Coast Guard detail because conditions were so bad that he was unwilling to take responsibility for it. Contract stevedores were used at other Bay Area Navy facilities, but not at Port Chicago or Mare Island. The Coast Guard loading detail was absent on the night of the explosion.
The inquiry was also very concerned over encouraged competition between loading crews. "The loading of explosives should never be a matter if competition," the inquiry stated. The witnesses also stated that "the colored enlisted personnel are neither temperamentally or intellectually capable of handling high explosives. These men could not understand the orders which were given to them and the only way they could be made to understand what they should do was by actual demonstration." The court did find that there was rough and careless handling of the explosives being loaded aboard ships at Port Chicago.
"Inherent defects in the bombs might have been a contributory cause, but there must have been some overt act to cause the bomb to actually explode," the court stated. Though it never found an exact cause for the explosion, the court did consider the "Presence of a supersensitive element which was detonated in the course of rough handling."
Another classified document reveals concern for the loading of ammunition at Port Chicago. Confidential memoranda ND12-16-Bd (SC) S78 Serial 40312, from the Commandant Twelfth Naval District to the Officer-in-Charge, Naval Ammunition Deport, Port Chicago, was written on September 23, 1944 - two months after the explosion. The memoranda called attention to the Torpex bombs - there were 97 tons of these bombs being loaded. "Torpex generates a hydrogen gas which causes expansion within the projectile, rending it necessary on occasion to release this gas in order to reduce the projectile's sensitivity to accidental detonation."
The 6-day-old Quinault Victory arrived at Port Chicago at approximately 7 p.m. on July 17 - less than three hours before the explosion. It was not being loaded, but was opposite the pier from the E.A. Bryan. It was the Quinault Victory that the visitors of the "shiny, black car" were visiting.
The box cars were on the pier. The first explosion is reported to have taken the pier out first - the second explosion on the ships.
TESTING VOGEL'S THEORY
Now, on the assumption that Vogel's theory is correct, that the government purposely blew up Port Chicago, there are certain characteristics that are important:
The ship would not be mixed with loaded munitions because the total test result would be inaccurate.
Would the government destroy its most productive West coast ammunition port which was only 80 percent completed?
Would two brand new ships be used in a test, rather than older vessels?
Would an untested bomb be used in a populated area and jeopardize thousands of lives and critical infrastructure?
Would there be two explosions? And why would the pier area blow up before the ship?
There are too many improbabilities associated with Vogels' theory of a test - when other facilities in the South Pacific or more isolated, less important facilities could have been use as a test site.
POSSIBLE SCENARIO
Based upon the records and documents that have been made public and at least reviewed, the following scenario might be drawn:
The first atomic bomb was indeed loaded. Not on the E.A. Bryan, but on the Quinault Victory.
That bomb, like the two later dropped on Japan, was destined for the South Pacific. The bomb would be held on Tinian and a B29 - which already existed - would carry that bomb over Japan.
The "shiny, black car" contained scientists from Los Alamos, checking on the security of the system.
The Navy was filming Port Chicago - not to capture an explosion, but to provide a complete documentary of the ship's progress, the filming process would continue through delivery to Tinian and beyond.
Because it was an atomic bomb that exploded, the U.S. government had to classify everything so as to avoid the enemy learning of the device. Future reclassification could protect the U.S. from a major international embarrassment during a nuclear-freeze frenzy in this country.
There was some type of accident in the loading process, which caused a major explosion - but not he main one. That explosion ruptured and activated the nuclear device.
Obviously, these theories are speculative at best, but they are based upon the documentation that even some of the Naval inquiry people did not have in 1944. Regardless of Vogel's conspiracy theory - the fact is that Vogel has provided sufficient evidence to prove a very high probability that a low-yield atomic explosion destroyed Port Chicago - and that American sailors were the first nuclear casualties in warfare, not the Japanese.
SOURCES
The Effects of Nuclear Weapons, U.S. Department of Defense, U.S. Atomic Energy Commission, 1962.
Computational Evaluation for the Energy Released in the Port Chicago Explosion, 1988.
Confidential Memoranda B-3-16437 from District Intelligence Officer, Twelfth Naval District on Explosion Naval Magazine, Port Chicago, July 21, 1944. Declassified 1989.
Confidential Memoranda ND12-16-Bd (SC) S78 Serial 40312 from Commandant, Twelfth Naval District, Evaluation of Hydrogen from Torpex, September 23, 1944. Declassified 1989.
Intra-Office memoranda ND12-02-MI-WWJ from District Legal Offices, Board of Investigation of damages sustained by Port Chicago, August 14, 1945. Declassified 1989.
Letter to Don Cox, Enrichment Office Division, U.S. Department of Energy, Oakridge, Tennessee, Production of U235 during the years 1913-1919. December 9, 1980.
Manhattan District History, Project Y. The Los Alamos Project, Vol. 1, LAMS-2532. Los Alamos 1961.
History of a 10,000 ton gadget, Los Alamos Laboratories Autumn 1944.
KVON Doubletalk with Peter Vogel, December 26, 1989.
The Port Chicago Mutiny, Robert L. Allen, 1989.
No Share of Glory, Robert E. Pearson, 1964.
California History, Black vs. Navy Blue: The Mare Island Mutiny Court Martial, Charles Wollenberg, Spring 1979.
The Black Scholar, Port Chicago Disaster And Its Aftermath, Robert Allen, 1982
The Black Scholar, The Last Wave From Port Chicago, Peter Vogel, July 1982.
Interview. Peter Vogel, January 1990.
San Jose Mercury News, Port Chicago remains enigma 45 years later, July 16, 1989.
San Francisco Chronicle, Blast Death Toll Now 377: 1000 Injured! July 19, 1944.
St. Helena Star, Terrific Explosion at Port Chicago Startles St. Helena Residents, July 211, 19454.
Napa Journal, Phone Crews Act Quickly to Mend Explosion Damage, July 28, 1944.
Napa Journal, Napa Red Cross, Doctors and Nurses Assistant at Port Chicago. July 21, 1944.
Additional evidence surfaces in Port Chicago Blast
By Harry V. Martin
Sometimes obscure personal documents from the past can help to substantiate theories of today. Recently the Napa Sentinel ran a series of articles on the Port Chicago explosion. The articles indicated that the theory of Peter Vogel, as voiced on KVON's Doubletalk, had plausibility in one area, and lacked supporting documentation in the other.
The article stated Vogel's theory was that an atomic bomb exploded at Port Chicago was highly plausible according to documents obtained by Vogel and the Sentinel. The article disputed Vogel's claim that the atomic explosion was really a test conducted by the U.S. Navy. The Sentinel maintained that the explosion was an accident - and perhaps a nuclear accident, at that.
New information has surfaced to give additional credibility to the nuclear accident theory. Carl Wehr, who died some time ago, was a Navy commander at Port Chicago and other ammunition loading facilities on the West Coast. His widow still lives in St. Helena. Wehr wrote a history of his Naval career entitled Up Through The Hawse Pipe, a compendium of events of life in the working navy through the enlisted ranks to commission status. Wehr's records were not written for public review, but his comments on pages 33 through 36 give credence to the Sentinel articles. The Sentinel did not exist during Wehr's lifetime.
"By 1944, we were shipping 180,000 tons (ammunition) a month to the Pacific theater. We loaded ammunition out of every major port on the West Coast, the largest tonnage by far, going through facilities in the Bay Area - principally the ammunition depot at Port Chicago which was built primarily as a shipping terminal for ammunition," his personal notes state. Wehr indicates that some 250 box car loads of ammunition were in revetment on the base waiting to load, "The explosion aboard the Quinault Victory took took 322 lives, most of them instantly. The dead were the ship's crew, stevedores, and trainmen," The amazing fact, according to Wehr, who was a high official at Port Chicago, was that of the 250 car loads of ammunition waiting to be loaded and in the revetments, "none of the ammunition was damaged."
Wehr pointed out what he felt might have been the cause of the explosion, though he admits he had not seen any official reports. "We do know that Torpex bombs were being loaded that night and it's quite possible that one of these could have been roughly handled or even dropped down into the hold of the ship," he wrote. "Torpex was a new explosive introduced into the Navy early in the war, it was extremely powerful, much more than the standard TNT, and more sensitive. Wehr cited two incidents related to torpex. "There were two accidents reported involving torpex bombs. In one case, a bomb fell from a bomb trailer being towed along a runway at an airfield near Norfork, Virginia and exploded. In another instance a torpex bomb exploded at the ammunition depot on Oahu in the Hawiian Islands. This occurred when the bomb was jolted in handling." Wehr also stated. "The explosive had a propensity on rare occasions to detonate with rough handling. And rough handling of ammunition in the loading operation was not uncommon." Wehr added, "One day at Port Chicago, I was standing near a hatch watching gun powder for fourteen inch guns being loaded. A damaged container holding nearly a hundred pounds of smokeless powder was set aside on the hatch cover, one of the loading crew was told to remove it, which he did - by rolling it along with his foot. The container got away from him and dropped through the open hatch and down two decks."
The Sentinel had projected that torpex bombs may have accidentally exploded - and if a nuclear device was at the Port, set it off as well.
Vogel theorized that the explosion was actually a test of an atomic weapon and the Port was expendable. The Sentinel theory indicated that whatever type of explosion it was, it was accidental. "The loss of the Port Chicago facility was aggravated by the severe restriction placed on the movement and handling of explosives at facilities other than those specifically designated for that use," Wehr wrote. "After the explosion, we couldn't transport a thirty caliber bullet over the Bay Bridges. Moreover, loading demands increased as tonnage escalated. For the invasion of Okinawa I needed berthing for twelve shiploads of Marine Corps ammunition. I flew to Seattle and, in conference with the Commandant of the Thirteenth Naval District and the Coast Guard, arranged for loading several ships at Tacoma." Wehr was admitting that the destruction of Port Chicago was a crippling blow to the war effort as a major push was being made to capture Okinawa and the Marianas.
The Sentinel articles also indicated that the atomic bomb that dropped on Hiroshima was shipped aboard the cruiser U.S.S. Indianapolis. In Wehr's notes he states, "One night about midnight, I received a telephone call at home from a lieutenant at the Oakland Naval Supply Depot, saying the Southern Pacific had two express cars which had arrived at the rail yard with a shipment of classified material identified only as "Bowery." The cars were under Marine guard and what to do with them? I told him I knew nothing about it but would get on it first thing the next morning. At eight o'clock the next morning I went into the office of my commanding officer, Commander Weatherwax, and told him of the arrival of project "Bowery." He leaped to his feet and shouted, "Where the hell did you learn about Bowery? The Admiral, the Chief of Staff and myself know of this!" After he calmed down, he told me this was a highly classified project and he would take care of it himself. Later I learned that "Bowery" was the first atomic bomb shipment. It was loaded aboard the cruiser Indianapolis and shipped to Guam." He even verified the statement in the Sentinel that the Indianapolis was sunk after delivering the bomb.
After the Port Chicago blast, the manifest of the destroyed box cars were revealed after a public records request. The government supplied all the details of every boxcar - except two. The government indicated that the manifests of those two boxcars probably contained the nuclear components and that the manifests were classified top secret. In Wehr's report of the atomic bomb shipment to Port Chicago in 1945 - less than a year after the explosion - he stated the contents were contained in two box cars. Accidents do happen. In 1957 - 13 years after Port Chicago - an Air Force plane hit turbulence over New Mexico and it accidently dropped a hydrogen bomb, which was 625 times greater than the atomic bomb that was used on Hiroshima, The U.S. government covered up this accident until 1985, when an Albuquerque journalist began investigating New Mexico's nuclear weapons research facilities with a simple question: Have they ever had any nuclear accidents? He finally filed a Freedom of Information Act request with the Pentagon - 10 months later the file was released. The 42,000 pound MK-17 bomb was the nation's first "droppable" hydrogen bomb. It was the largest bomb ever produced by the United States.
Fortunately, in this case, the explosives gouged a 25-foot crater in the earth, but the nuclear device was not detonated. Like the Port Chicago case, the U.S. government emphatically denied the accident, but when it released the public records, it showed the government had lied. The journalist challenged the governments first refusal to submit the material. He wrote, "It strains the credibility of the Air Force to contend that release of information about accidents involving 35-and 28-year-old weapons - which are now obsolete - will in any way endanger national security. "After 10 months, the investigative reporter received stacks of document from the Air Force Inspection and Safety Center concerning the nuclear accident.
The old diary and the Freedom of Information Act provides critical data that is not easily obtained from government officials - who will often deny events at first. When the media accepts the government's line, without verification, it only serves to aid deception and misinformation,. The Sentinel has filed a Freedom of Information Act request to obtain full documentation on the Port Chicago blast, including Technical Report No. 6 which was reclassified after inquiries about the explosion began to proliferate.
This is eerily reminiscent of the government withdrawing documents that Robert Stinnet used to research his blockbuster, "Day of Deceit"
This is eerily reminiscent of the government withdrawing documents that Robert Stinnet used to research his blockbuster, "Day of Deceit"
(this quote is from Stinnet, shown in the reviews of his book at amazon.com)
Immediately after Day of Deceit appeared in bookstores in 1999, NSA began withdrawing pre-Pearl Harbor documents from the Crane Files housed in Archives II. This means the government decided to continue 60 years of Pearl Harbor censorship. As of January 2002, over two dozen NSA withdrawal notices have triggered the removal of Pearl Harbor documents from public inspection.
The number of pages in the withdrawn documents appears to be in the hundreds.
Anybody who wants to understand the type of mindset that can lead to a 911, and how the government is ready, willing, and able to cover up it's crimes and murderous deceits would do well to read "Day of Deceit".
Don't forget my Super Secret Decoder Ring.
The construction of the floors is detailed in the NIST document, but I've seen the same detail on other sites.
The NIST report states the floors were not reinforced.
And it is interesting, if you look at the debris, you don't see a lot of rebar lattice that you would expect to find if they were in fact reinforced.
I mean, if they WERE reinforced you are talking about ~110 acres of reinforced rebar lattice.
Oh, unless of course they were turned to powder like the Spire.
Arthur
They provide little in the way of structural stability to the floor since all they were required to do was take the weight of the cement mix until it hardened.
This is definitely wrong. If you go back to page 4 or 5 you can see that I (Jon Pratt) have worked both as a setting out engineer and as as a structural engineer, from 1989 to 1995. The cement is supported in-situ normally with plywood, although sometimes with metal barriers (shuttering), both coated with a non-stick liquid called mold oil. The steel mesh embedded within the cement is not called reinforcement steel for nothing, without mentioning the physical impossibility of reinforcement steel (normally between 5-20 mm diameter lengths) holding up any quantity whatsoever of liquid cement.
I'm not going to speculate about the reasons for this undeniable error, you only need to know it is not true.
As the construction diagrams show, the concrete floors of the WTC were NOT reinforced with steel mesh.
Arthur
Floors
Composite floors comprise 900mm deep bar joists (spaced at 2.04 m centres and braced transversely by secondary joists) and a 10 cm thick lightweight concrete slab laid on steel trough decking as permanent formwork. Composite action between the concrete and the steelwork is ensured by extending the diagonal web members of the joists through the steel decking and embedding them in the slab. Dead weight of floor 50 kg/in2, imposed load 488 kg/in2.

Consider the following quote from Engineering News-Record, January 1, 1970.
On the 41st and 42nd floors, both towers will house mechanical equipment. To accommodate the heavy loads, the floors are designed as structural steel frame slabs. All other floors from the ninth to the top (except for 75 and 76, which will also carry mechanical equipment) have typical truss floor joists and steel decking.
Typical office floors have 4-in. thick slabs of composite construction using top chord knuckles of the joists (trusses), which extend into the slab, as shear connectors. On mechanical floors, composite action is provided by welded stud shear connectors.
So the first 8 + 6 = 14 stories, and the 41st, 42nd, 75th and 76th floors, used solid steel beams in place of trusses. Also, the top stories had special steel reinforcing diagonals called outrigger trusses.
http://bb.domaindlx.com/911TheTruth/wtc/small/godfrey.htm
The WTC floor diaphragms consisted of concrete slabs poured onto corrugated steel pans. So the floors consisted of concrete AND steel, clearly making the official pancake conspiracy theory absolutely nonsensical.
IIRC the pupose of those corrugated steel pans is orginally , concrete forms. They provide little in the way of structural stability to the floor since all they were required to do was take the weight of the cement mix until it hardened.
Pretty desperate.
Thank you Frater Plecticus.
Look you proponents of the official conspiracy theory.
The diversionary effect of your fairy tales that defy natural
law and reality is zero. Try to identify the argument. For once.
The diversionary effect of your fairy tales that defy natural
law and reality is zero. Try to identify the argument. For once.
Hi Foxx, galdur edoucette.
Just 'surfing' again. Three brief observations.....
FOXX.....Thanks for posting those pictures which demonstrate the effectivenes of that "Ground Effect" I posted about earlier. You will note that where the 'main wing' is large and 'set back', there needs to be a 'CANARD' wing structure 'forward' so as to counteract the 'pitching' due to the 'lift' on the main wing being well aft of the usual 'free-wing' lift-point....and note also that where the 'main wing' is 'forward', it is placed WELL FORWARD (for the same reason that the main 'lift' point is well aft of the usual 'free-wing' lift point).
GALDUR....If those 'corrugated iron pans' were still effective at that time, then this would support the 'pancaking floor' hypothesis because the floors would have (initially at least) begun 'falling/being pushed' downwards into the next lowest 'floor space' MORE 'intact' than otherwise in the absence of such 'initial form-maintenance' corrugated-support structures.
ADOUCETTE...In that 'pentagon' picture (other thread), did any 'unburnt desk-debris' fall onto the pictured floor during/after firefighters extinguished the worst of the flames? If so, that might explain any 'wooden' materials that 'survived'; because they fell onto that floor through a 'sodden' ceiling when fires were not so severe or were essentially 'out'...that is, IF they were 'wooden' desks etc....I have no information on that score, so I'm only surmising as to obvious possibilities.
Good luck everyone.
RealityCheck.
.
Just 'surfing' again. Three brief observations.....
FOXX.....Thanks for posting those pictures which demonstrate the effectivenes of that "Ground Effect" I posted about earlier. You will note that where the 'main wing' is large and 'set back', there needs to be a 'CANARD' wing structure 'forward' so as to counteract the 'pitching' due to the 'lift' on the main wing being well aft of the usual 'free-wing' lift-point....and note also that where the 'main wing' is 'forward', it is placed WELL FORWARD (for the same reason that the main 'lift' point is well aft of the usual 'free-wing' lift point).
GALDUR....If those 'corrugated iron pans' were still effective at that time, then this would support the 'pancaking floor' hypothesis because the floors would have (initially at least) begun 'falling/being pushed' downwards into the next lowest 'floor space' MORE 'intact' than otherwise in the absence of such 'initial form-maintenance' corrugated-support structures.
ADOUCETTE...In that 'pentagon' picture (other thread), did any 'unburnt desk-debris' fall onto the pictured floor during/after firefighters extinguished the worst of the flames? If so, that might explain any 'wooden' materials that 'survived'; because they fell onto that floor through a 'sodden' ceiling when fires were not so severe or were essentially 'out'...that is, IF they were 'wooden' desks etc....I have no information on that score, so I'm only surmising as to obvious possibilities.
Good luck everyone.
RealityCheck.
.
RC, the concrete turned to dust in mid air as all evidence shows.
For that to take place you need to literally boil it.
Floors falling on each others just aren't capable to produce that
effect and any steel reinforcement makes any such notions just
nonsensical. Those pans were shredded. The steel structure
looked like it had been through a giant shredder. Some outside
force did this the most likely being high power explosives.
For that to take place you need to literally boil it.
Floors falling on each others just aren't capable to produce that
effect and any steel reinforcement makes any such notions just
nonsensical. Those pans were shredded. The steel structure
looked like it had been through a giant shredder. Some outside
force did this the most likely being high power explosives.
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 24 2005, 12:41 AM)
RC, the concrete turned to dust in mid air as all evidence shows.
For that to take place you need to literally boil it.
Floors falling on each others just aren't capable to produce that
effect and any steel reinforcement makes any such notions just
nonsensical. Those pans were shredded. The steel structure
looked like it had been through a giant shredder. Some outside
force did this the most likely being high power explosives.
.
Hi galdur.
If you read through this thread you will come acroos where I observed that every day around the world, both in industry and in hospital operating theatres, much harder limestone/calcifications are 'shattered/pulverised' by unltrasound techniques. Such soundwaves would be part of the spectrum of soundwaves produced during the collapse chaos in question. So no.....most of the " plaster/concrete" shattering/pulverisation you mentioned most probably occurred MECHANICO-ACCOUSTICALLY rather through PYROLYSIS (thermally).
And the 'corrugated iron pans' were "SUPPORTING" rather than "re-inforcing" in the accepted 'integral strength' sense.
RC.
.
For that to take place you need to literally boil it.
Floors falling on each others just aren't capable to produce that
effect and any steel reinforcement makes any such notions just
nonsensical. Those pans were shredded. The steel structure
looked like it had been through a giant shredder. Some outside
force did this the most likely being high power explosives.
.
Hi galdur.
If you read through this thread you will come acroos where I observed that every day around the world, both in industry and in hospital operating theatres, much harder limestone/calcifications are 'shattered/pulverised' by unltrasound techniques. Such soundwaves would be part of the spectrum of soundwaves produced during the collapse chaos in question. So no.....most of the " plaster/concrete" shattering/pulverisation you mentioned most probably occurred MECHANICO-ACCOUSTICALLY rather through PYROLYSIS (thermally).
And the 'corrugated iron pans' were "SUPPORTING" rather than "re-inforcing" in the accepted 'integral strength' sense.
RC.
.
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Dec 24 2005, 12:56 AM)
.
Such soundwaves would be part of the spectrum of soundwaves produced during the collapse chaos in question. So no.....most of the " plaster/concrete" shattering/pulverisation you mentioned most probably occurred MECHANICO-ACCOUSTICALLY rather through PYROLYSIS (thermally).
RC.
.
Rc,
What exactly would be causing these frequencies? Sounds like fires are better then controlled demolition with explosives.
QUOTE (Guest+Dec 24 2005, 01:19 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Dec 24 2005, 12:56 AM)
.
Such soundwaves would be part of the spectrum of soundwaves produced during the collapse chaos in question. So no.....most of the " plaster/concrete" shattering/pulverisation you mentioned most probably occurred MECHANICO-ACCOUSTICALLY rather through PYROLYSIS (thermally).
RC.
.
Rc,
What exactly would be causing these frequencies? Sounds like fires are better then controlled demolition with explosives.
.
Hi Guest.
I can only assume that you are being funny rather than deliberately obtuse.
Because I referred to 'collapse chaos'...and NOT to 'collapse initiation'. The chaos of collapse-impacts would produce a wide spectrum of soundwave types...with the most destructive ones being those which are 'resultant' soundwaves where CONSTRUCTIVE INTERFERENCE' would produce extremely STRONG/HIGH-ENERGY-DENSITY soundwaves capable of almost 'explosive-effect' damage to anything coinciding with the 'locations' of such Constructive-Interference' resultant-waves.
Even 'original' (unre-inforced) soundwaves would be capable of shattering/pulverising such material as we are speaking off; so imagine what RE-INFORCED waves from constructive-interference processes would do during the COLLAPSE chaos.
RC
QUOTE
Originally posted by RC
FOXX.....Thanks for posting those pictures which demonstrate the effectivenes of that "Ground Effect" I posted about earlier. You will note that where the 'main wing' is large and 'set back', there needs to be a 'CANARD' wing structure 'forward' so as to counteract the 'pitching' due to the 'lift' on the main wing being well aft of the usual 'free-wing' lift-point....and note also that where the 'main wing' is 'forward', it is placed WELL FORWARD (for the same reason that the main 'lift' point is well aft of the usual 'free-wing' lift point).
FOXX.....Thanks for posting those pictures which demonstrate the effectivenes of that "Ground Effect" I posted about earlier. You will note that where the 'main wing' is large and 'set back', there needs to be a 'CANARD' wing structure 'forward' so as to counteract the 'pitching' due to the 'lift' on the main wing being well aft of the usual 'free-wing' lift-point....and note also that where the 'main wing' is 'forward', it is placed WELL FORWARD (for the same reason that the main 'lift' point is well aft of the usual 'free-wing' lift point).
RC - I don't remember your post re: GE and/or Dynamic Ram Wing Aerofoils ( and it's a 'little' off-topic from wtc discussion), but I'll just say this... as you seem interested in this area...
The concept relies on developing a near surface aerodynamic ram-wing 'cushion' (in very simple terms), and is not really dependant upon normal free-flight parameters for stability in exactly the same ways as aircraft. Canards have been tried in GE / aerofoil boats, do not enhance pitch stability, and have more often than not upset the balances. (They work pretty well on Unlimited Hydroplanes though).
That is why you always see GE / Aerofoil Boats with a large high-set T-tail which gives them kind of a scorpion look.

While in GE, this is a far more effective means of controlling 'pitch'. It's not really a topic for discussion here, but...If you are really interested in this phenomena there is more examples and information on the following pages...
http://www.samolet.co.uk/ekranoplan.html
http://foxxaero.homestead.com/indwig.html
http://www.se-technology.com/wig/html/main...pen=hist&code=0
http://www.se-technology.com/wig/index.php
http://www.beriev.com/eng/photos4_e.html
Here's a model of the Bariev (Russian) super-heavy Type C 'WiGE'... (not actually an Aerofoil Boat but rather a heavy transport 'sea-plane') which employs GE design for take-off / landings...

The Russians have always been years ahead of the US (and everyone else) in this technology.
That's all I'm going to say about GE on this thread.
BTW... I think your 'soundwave' stuff is as illogical as your GE stuff
sound waves?!
oh, man, that's DESPERATE. myabe they had some of them biblical trumpets.
or, maybe ella fitzgerald was singing in the lobby. yeah, that's it.
'reality check'? give me a break. that's some of the wildest HAREBRAINED speculation i've ever seen. (although, on a another forum, one of your 'associates' is speculating there was a blast furnace in the sublevels. HAHA!)
the towers were demolished. occam's razor says so. ALL the evidence can be explained by controlled demolition. as more evidence is discovered(ie. 911eyewitness video), it becomes even more OBVIOUS.
the pancake theory is like a piece of swiss cheese on the wrong end of an uzi.
as is the nineteen guys theory.
i think i'll get together a few buddies and destroy communism, if it's that easy to destroy democracy and overcome a country's entire intelligence community, and military, and airport security, for that matter.
nobody needs a ticket anymore. just tell them you're a terrorist, and they'll let you on no questions asked.
ultrasound. HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!! loser.
oh, man, that's DESPERATE. myabe they had some of them biblical trumpets.
or, maybe ella fitzgerald was singing in the lobby. yeah, that's it.
'reality check'? give me a break. that's some of the wildest HAREBRAINED speculation i've ever seen. (although, on a another forum, one of your 'associates' is speculating there was a blast furnace in the sublevels. HAHA!)
the towers were demolished. occam's razor says so. ALL the evidence can be explained by controlled demolition. as more evidence is discovered(ie. 911eyewitness video), it becomes even more OBVIOUS.
the pancake theory is like a piece of swiss cheese on the wrong end of an uzi.
as is the nineteen guys theory.
i think i'll get together a few buddies and destroy communism, if it's that easy to destroy democracy and overcome a country's entire intelligence community, and military, and airport security, for that matter.
nobody needs a ticket anymore. just tell them you're a terrorist, and they'll let you on no questions asked.
ultrasound. HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!! loser.
QUOTE (Foxx+Dec 24 2005, 02:08 AM)
QUOTE
Originally posted by RC
FOXX.....Thanks for posting those pictures which demonstrate the effectivenes of that "Ground Effect" I posted about earlier. You will note that where the 'main wing' is large and 'set back', there needs to be a 'CANARD' wing structure 'forward' so as to counteract the 'pitching' due to the 'lift' on the main wing being well aft of the usual 'free-wing' lift-point....and note also that where the 'main wing' is 'forward', it is placed WELL FORWARD (for the same reason that the main 'lift' point is well aft of the usual 'free-wing' lift point).
FOXX.....Thanks for posting those pictures which demonstrate the effectivenes of that "Ground Effect" I posted about earlier. You will note that where the 'main wing' is large and 'set back', there needs to be a 'CANARD' wing structure 'forward' so as to counteract the 'pitching' due to the 'lift' on the main wing being well aft of the usual 'free-wing' lift-point....and note also that where the 'main wing' is 'forward', it is placed WELL FORWARD (for the same reason that the main 'lift' point is well aft of the usual 'free-wing' lift point).
RC - I don't remember your post re: GE and/or Dynamic Ram Wing Aerofoils ( and it's a 'little' off-topic from wtc discussion), but I'll just say this... as you seem interested in this area...
The concept relies on developing a near surface aerodynamic ram-wing 'cushion' (in very simple terms), and is not really dependant upon normal free-flight parameters for stability in exactly the same ways as aircraft. Canards have been tried in GE / aerofoil boats, do not enhance pitch stability, and have more often than not upset the balances. (They work pretty well on Unlimited Hydroplanes though).
That is why you always see GE / Aerofoil Boats with a large high-set T-tail which gives them kind of a scorpion look.

While in GE, this is a far more effective means of controlling 'pitch'. It's not really a topic for discussion here, but...If you are really interested in this phenomena there is more examples and information on the following pages...
http://www.samolet.co.uk/ekranoplan.html
http://foxxaero.homestead.com/indwig.html
http://www.se-technology.com/wig/html/main...pen=hist&code=0
http://www.se-technology.com/wig/index.php
http://www.beriev.com/eng/photos4_e.html
Here's a model of the Bariev (Russian) super-heavy Type C 'WiGE'... (not actually an Aerofoil Boat but rather a heavy transport 'sea-plane') which employs GE design for take-off / landings...

The Russians have always been years ahead of the US (and everyone else) in this technology.
That's all I'm going to say about GE on this thread.
BTW... I think your 'soundwave' stuff is as illogical as your GE stuff
.
Hi Foxx!
I think that post was in the 'Pentagon' thread. And the 'ground effect' (GE) was long-recognised BEFORE anyone thought of designing 'stub-wing' low-air-craft to take full advantage of it (some World War II aircraft were devilishly hard to 'ground' when trying to land when empty because they were TOO GOOD at staying in GE, hehehe). As to the Russian 'lead', it is not disputed that they had a 'working experimental craft' before anyone else. But perhaps the reason no-one else was really interested in such craft is their vulnerability (at the smaller 'scales' at least) to sudden wind/wave interference/impacts/upsets at high speeds....there ARE such things as 'rogue waves' which suddenly rear up out of nowhere in the oceans due to EXACTLY that thing I was talking about: CONSTRUCTIVE INTERFERENCE between two or more 'coinciding' (in this case) ocean-WAVES, hehehe....not to mention such things as SUDDEN DOWNWARDS-ACTING AIR-CURRENT 'MICRO-BURSTS' which leave low-flying aircraft with little downward manouevring 'trajectory-time/space' to recover (and such 'practically-on-the-deck' "ground-effect flying" craft would have NO HOPE of recovery in such circumstances). And the 'ram-air' from engine exhaust etc. is merely an added bonus to underwing air density/pressure to that which would exist anyway...it merely helps to [a] 'raise' the underwing height limit for when 'ground-effect' becomes active or[b] to reduce the main-wing area (and/or velocity) which would otherwise need to be greater without the 'ram air' input. It may also interest readers that there have been 'designs' for 'aircraft-carrier' scale GE craft which would be less vulnerable and more fuel and ground-flight efficient (as well as having sufficient wing area for short BURSTS of 'island/obstruction' HOPPING arc-trajectory 'flights' OUT of GE 'mode').
Sorry, mate, if my 'hurried' posts come across as gobbledy-gook to you, hehehe..can't be helped with the time constraints I'm working under at the moment (I'm posting stuff from memory; as I don't have the time to chase up and cut/paste from reference material). And don't worry, I'm not offended by your 'non-acceptance' of my observations as to ultrasound etc pulverisation techniques/processes. After all, while you admit to not being at all familiar with such things, I on the other hand have had occassion to research these and MANY other things throughout my 'trouble-shooting' career from age nine. If anyone here wishes to familiarise themselves with such things as these to the same extent as I have had problem-solving reasons to do in the past, I shall be only too glad, time permitting, to discuss these things further...as there are many interesting phenomena/possibilities involved in these two somewhat arcane subjects...but i think my commitments in the T.O.E. "special project" will make such in-depth discussions here impossible for the time being...pity. I'll keep 'surfing' through here, though, and continue to comment on anything that strikes me as interesting. Ciao, mate!
Have a good holiday, folks!
RealityCheck.
.
QUOTE (frater plecticus+)
QUOTE (yesitdid+)
They provide little in the way of structural stability to the floor since all they were required to do was take the weight of the cement mix until it hardened.
This is definitely wrong. If you go back to page 4 or 5 you can see that I (Jon Pratt) have worked both as a setting out engineer and as as a structural engineer, from 1989 to 1995. The cement is supported in-situ normally with plywood, although sometimes with metal barriers (shuttering), both coated with a non-stick liquid called mold oil. The steel mesh embedded within the cement is not called reinforcement steel for nothing, without mentioning the physical impossibility of reinforcement steel (normally between 5-20 mm diameter lengths) holding up any quantity whatsoever of liquid cement.
I'm not going to speculate about the reasons for this undeniable error, you only need to know it is not true.
As the construction diagrams show, the concrete floors of the WTC were NOT reinforced with steel mesh.
Arthur
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 24 2005, 03:56 AM)
QUOTE (frater plecticus+)
QUOTE (yesitdid+)
They provide little in the way of structural stability to the floor since all they were required to do was take the weight of the cement mix until it hardened.
This is definitely wrong. If you go back to page 4 or 5 you can see that I (Jon Pratt) have worked both as a setting out engineer and as as a structural engineer, from 1989 to 1995. The cement is supported in-situ normally with plywood, although sometimes with metal barriers (shuttering), both coated with a non-stick liquid called mold oil. The steel mesh embedded within the cement is not called reinforcement steel for nothing, without mentioning the physical impossibility of reinforcement steel (normally between 5-20 mm diameter lengths) holding up any quantity whatsoever of liquid cement.
I'm not going to speculate about the reasons for this undeniable error, you only need to know it is not true.
As the construction diagrams show, the concrete floors of the WTC were NOT reinforced with steel mesh.
Arthur
Construction diagrams, what are you talking about? Are the blue prints available with specifications?
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 24 2005, 03:56 AM)
[QUOTE=frater plecticus]
As the construction diagrams show, the concrete floors of the WTC were NOT reinforced with steel mesh.
Arthur
what construction diagrams? original blueprints? film footage of construction? more NIST twist?
how about the cores? did the concrete in the cores have steel reinforcement? i think SO.
the concrete on the floors was a MERE four inches thick. not a lot of destructive force, there.
another part of the illusion.
relatively lightwieght floors being blamed for destroying VERY heavy steel frames. it would be laughable if it wasn't the end of 'humanity'.
As the construction diagrams show, the concrete floors of the WTC were NOT reinforced with steel mesh.
Arthur
what construction diagrams? original blueprints? film footage of construction? more NIST twist?
how about the cores? did the concrete in the cores have steel reinforcement? i think SO.
the concrete on the floors was a MERE four inches thick. not a lot of destructive force, there.
another part of the illusion.
relatively lightwieght floors being blamed for destroying VERY heavy steel frames. it would be laughable if it wasn't the end of 'humanity'.
QUOTE (reality debit+Dec 24 2005, 02:39 AM)
sound waves?!
oh, man, that's DESPERATE. myabe they had some of them biblical trumpets.
or, maybe ella fitzgerald was singing in the lobby. yeah, that's it.
'reality check'? give me a break. that's some of the wildest HAREBRAINED speculation i've ever seen. (although, on a another forum, one of your 'associates' is speculating there was a blast furnace in the sublevels. HAHA!)
the towers were demolished. occam's razor says so. ALL the evidence can be explained by controlled demolition. as more evidence is discovered(ie. 911eyewitness video), it becomes even more OBVIOUS.
the pancake theory is like a piece of swiss cheese on the wrong end of an uzi.
as is the nineteen guys theory.
i think i'll get together a few buddies and destroy communism, if it's that easy to destroy democracy and overcome a country's entire intelligence community, and military, and airport security, for that matter.
nobody needs a ticket anymore. just tell them you're a terrorist, and they'll let you on no questions asked.
ultrasound. HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!! loser.
.
And the anonymous ignoramus speak volumes about the education system in whatever country this particular 'brainiac' speaks from. And by the way "reality debit", I have no 'associates' on this forum or in any other sphere of my life/work; I am independent and work strictly alone, and like it that way...both any mistakes or accomplishments of mine are solely my own and nobody else's, thanks very much. Too bad about your own lack of manners and education/knowledge about these matters. In any case, it matters not one whit what your opinion is about anything I have said, because you are obviously irrelevant and surplus to requirements in ANY discussion between intelligent individuals on this forum. Don't call us, we'll call you. Ciao.
oh, man, that's DESPERATE. myabe they had some of them biblical trumpets.
or, maybe ella fitzgerald was singing in the lobby. yeah, that's it.
'reality check'? give me a break. that's some of the wildest HAREBRAINED speculation i've ever seen. (although, on a another forum, one of your 'associates' is speculating there was a blast furnace in the sublevels. HAHA!)
the towers were demolished. occam's razor says so. ALL the evidence can be explained by controlled demolition. as more evidence is discovered(ie. 911eyewitness video), it becomes even more OBVIOUS.
the pancake theory is like a piece of swiss cheese on the wrong end of an uzi.
as is the nineteen guys theory.
i think i'll get together a few buddies and destroy communism, if it's that easy to destroy democracy and overcome a country's entire intelligence community, and military, and airport security, for that matter.
nobody needs a ticket anymore. just tell them you're a terrorist, and they'll let you on no questions asked.
ultrasound. HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!! loser.
.
And the anonymous ignoramus speak volumes about the education system in whatever country this particular 'brainiac' speaks from. And by the way "reality debit", I have no 'associates' on this forum or in any other sphere of my life/work; I am independent and work strictly alone, and like it that way...both any mistakes or accomplishments of mine are solely my own and nobody else's, thanks very much. Too bad about your own lack of manners and education/knowledge about these matters. In any case, it matters not one whit what your opinion is about anything I have said, because you are obviously irrelevant and surplus to requirements in ANY discussion between intelligent individuals on this forum. Don't call us, we'll call you. Ciao.
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Dec 24 2005, 06:53 AM)
And the anonymous ignoramus speak volumes about the education system in whatever country this particular 'brainiac' speaks from. And by the way "reality debit", I have no 'associates' on this forum or in any other sphere of my life/work; I am independent and work strictly alone, and like it that way...both any mistakes or accomplishments of mine are solely my own and nobody else's, thanks very much. Too bad about your own lack of manners and education/knowledge about these matters. In any case, it matters not one whit what your opinion is about anything I have said, because you are obviously irrelevant and surplus to requirements in ANY discussion between intelligent individuals on this forum. Don't call us, we'll call you. Ciao.
okay, RC. whatever you say.
you are the AUTHORITY. when you say it's so, it's so, because you are 'reality check'.
tell me more about these destructive soundwaves? why hasn't the military harnessed this obvious destructive force?
i'm 'newton' here, okay? you can direct your insults to me more directly, now, reality challenged.
i don't like being rude, i am mostly just reacting to the rudeness of government apologists and whatnot.
okay, genius. here's the million(trillion, even) dollar question...
how did tower seven fall with no resistance from the structure and no resistance from AIR?!
soundwaves, maybe?
no one is irrelevent, in my opinion. reality is a vast mesh of interconnectedness. much like the heavy steel frames of the twin towers.
seeing as you're so smart, why don't you educate me as to how much energy would be required to keep molten steel in a molten state for weeks on end, if the liquid steel was buried underneath tons of rubble, and how large would the pool have to be to retain this mysterious steel melting heat?
and indeed, where did the heat come from in the first place? sound?
why don't you show me how soundwaves can melt steel. look out iran, ...we've got woofers and tweeters comin' your way.
why don't you tell me how a gravity driven collapse can create pyroclastic flows(sound?).
why don't you tell me why most people don't even know that tower seven fell? (oh, wait... i know that one. it's because the 'news you can trust' never TOLD ANYONE. no sound, there.)
why don't you show me how angular momentum can just disappear?
you should probably just ignore me if you value your intellectual one-upmanship.
QUOTE
A MUSHROOM CLOUD
What really happened at Port Chicago in 1944, a nuclear explosion?
By Harry V. Martin
Copyright FreeAmerica and Harry V. Martin, 1995
Everyone within a 50-mile radius of Port Chicago - located in Contra Costa County, felt a tremendous blast. At first most residents in the Bay Area, including Napa County, thought it was an earthquake. The night was Monday, July 17, 1944. Port Chicago has now been named the Concord Naval Weapons Station.
The Hiroshima blast was a year later, in August 1945. Not until the Hiroshima and the Nagasaki blasts was the general population of the world aware of terms such as "bright white light" and "mushroom cloud" in reference to a military explosion.
The coincidences and the oddities surrounding the Port Chicago explosion are only surfacing today. Some of those are:
The U.S. claimed it could not test the Hiroshima bomb because it only had a small supply of U-235, allowing for the making of only two bombs. Records obtained from the U.S. Government indicate that enough U-235 existed in 1944 to make several bombs, and more in 1945.
The head of Port Chicago was promoted to commodore immediately after the explosion and also headed up tests in the Pacific, and was also aboard the Enola Gay when it dropped the bomb on Hiroshima. After Hiroshima he was made a rear admiral. He was Captain Parsons - who had been stationed at Los Alamos Laboratories before the explosion at Port Chicago.
Liberty ships were loaded while crews remained aboard the vessel. The Liberty ship that exploded at Port Chicago had no crew aboard.
Documents from Los Alamos show that at the time of the Port Chicago explosion it was believed that the only way to deliver an atomic bomb to the enemy was by ship, detonating in the harbor. It was called the Hydrodynamic Theory of Surface Explosions.
Records of contents of two box cars unloaded at Port Chicago are missing. A complete list of all box cars were kept - except those two. Did it contain the 9000 pound bomb?
Port Chicago was rebuilt in one week after its destruction. Two hundred black sailors died in the explosion.
There was a Navy mutiny at Port Chicago after the blast.
The Navy was photographing the entire blast from across the Bay.
In a top secret report on a nuclear detonation after Port Chicago, the notes state that it was a "Port Chicago-type" explosion in similarity and form.
One of the highest rates of cancer in the United States is in Contra Costa County.
The story seems too incredible to believe - that the U.S. would test a weapon on itself. In order to ascertain the truth of this matter, one must study old reports. In the beginning of this series, the simplest reports to study are the uncensored news reports of local newspapers, such as the St. Helena Star and the Napa Journal - The Napa Journal was bought out in the 1950's and became the Napa Register. These eye witness reports were made in the pre-atomic age, when no one knew about atomic weapons - what they were, how they worked, what devastation they created, what they looked like, or for that matter, that they even existed. It was one of the most closely guarded top secrets of World War Two.
"One of the few to see the flash from here was Tom Street, who happened to be standing in the patio if his Spring Mountain home when the blast came," reported the July 21, 1944 edition of the St. Helena Star. "First there was a sudden mushroom of white light, followed an instant later by another, then a few moments later the intense roar and the concussion of the blast. At the rate of about a mile for every 5 seconds, it required a little over 4 minutes for the blast to reach St. Helena." In another account in the same newspaper, it states. "The force of the explosion was felt at the Mt. St. Helena observation tower, but apparently the range of the mountains at the end of the valley stopped the concussion, for Lake County residents didn't feel it."
"The hills of the Napa Valley were momentarily illuminated by sunlight." reported the Napa Journal.
Differences in nuclear explosions - Port Chicago blast re-examined
By Harry V. Martin
Second in a Series
Copyright, The Napa Sentinel, 1990
A major disaster, such as that of Port Chicago, can always remain a mystery - and often time sparks the interest of "conspiracy theorists." In most cases, time erodes the evidence, But in the case of Port Chicago time has not wiped out the evidence - the U.S. military and scientific community are good record keepers. Because of the existing records on Port Chicago, the court martial of 50 black sailors, various records from Los Alamos, and reports from nuclear agencies and the media provide a succinct road map to the Port Chicago disaster.
The local news accounts of the blast on July 17, 1944, all focus on a flashing bright light and a mushroom cloud - all written before the general public or the news media were even aware of the dawn of the nuclear age. One of the critical points of contention in the theory that Port Chicago's explosion may have been nuclear, is the radiation factor. The purported bomb would have been a low-yield weapon detonated in shallow water. One of the key authorities on the effect of nuclear weapons is a publication prepared by the United States Department of Defense and published by the United States Atomic Energy Commission in April 1962. Entitled, "The Effects of Nuclear Weapons", the publication states on page 60, "There may well be some fallout or rainout onto the surface of the water (or a ship or shore station) from the radioactive base surge, but in many cases it is expected to pass over without depositing any debris. Thus, according to circumstances, there may or may not be radioactive contamination on the surfaces of objects in the vicinity of a shallow underwater nuclear burst." The theory advanced by Peter Vogel - who is a journalist and who also studied physics with nuclear physicist Edward Teller - is that a nuclear weapon was in the hold of a Liberty Ship.
But before entering Vogel's scenario, which has some contradiction with official records, it is important to note how Vogel was drawn to such a theory. It started innocently enough in Santa Fe, New Mexico - a town across the Rio Grande from Los Alamos. Vogel was at a rummage sale conducted by the Christ Evangelical Lutheran Church. At the bottom of a box of equipment, which had been donated to the church, he found a photocopied document taken from Los Alamos Laboratories in the Autumn of 1944 - a few months after the Port Chicago explosion. The document is entitled, "History of 10,000 ton gadget."
Vogel traced the document to Paul Masters, who was employed at the Laboratories as a photographic darkroom technician and photographer. Part of Masters' duties was to operate a large blueprint-type machine upon which were made copies of bomb drawings and other originals too large for conventional copying machines. The document is the earliest known description of the progression of the explosion of an atomic bomb. It is very concise and contains previously top secret information about the actual design of an atomic bomb. On the bottom line in Step 11, the document reads, "Ball of fire mushroom out at 18,000 ft, in typical Port Chicago fashion." The Port Chicago explosion was characterized by a brilliant white flash, and a ball of fire which mushroomed out above Suisun Bay to an observed altitude of 10,000 feet before its ascent was obscured by the dark of night.
What is so important about this particular document? It compared a hypothetical nuclear explosion to the actual explosion at Port Chicago, possibly implying that the Port Chicago disaster, itself may have been due to a nuclear detonation. Vogel found that document in 1980 - he has followed the trail of Port Chicago ever since.
The U.S. government had never made an official "finding" on Port Chicago. It speculated that the black sailors had handled the ammunition carelessly. One factor the U.S. government has been emphatic about, is that there was not sufficient U-235 in 1945, and that the Hiroshima bomb was dropped untested. If there was not sufficient U-235 available to make a bomb, how could Vogel theorize that the Port Chicago blast was nuclear?
Apparently few, if anyone, had bothered to check the records of the United States Department of Energy on U-235 production. The results are very surprising - and reflect on the possibility that the U.S. government was not forthright in its statements. The minimum critical mass for U-235 is approximately 15.5 kilograms. The Hiroshima bomb might have contained up to 60 kilograms of U-235. In checking the official data from the Enriching Operations Division of the Department of Energy at Oak Ridge, the records reveal that in 1943 the U.S. had 74 kg. of U-235 available for a bomb - six times that of the minimum requirement. By 1944 it had 93 kg. or seven times the minimum, and by 1945, 289 kg. were available. According to official government records, sufficient U-235 was processed in 1944 - the date of the Port Chicago blast - to make six minimum nuclear bombs.
The American public has grown to visualize nuclear weapons being dropped from B-29s or from missiles. But in 1944, at the time of the Port Chicago blast, the belief was that the United States did not have any type of aircraft capable of carrying a bomb, nor airfields close enough to Japan to carry such a weapon. The B-29 was not operational, nor was the island of Tinian, in the Mariana Islands, under U.S. control. Documents from Los Alamos show that at the time of the Port Chicago explosion, it was believed that the only way to deliver an atomic bomb to the enemy was by ship, detonating it in the harbor. It was called the Hydrodynamic Theory of Surface Explosions.
Vogel's theory, based on the documents he had found - compared with official government documents and eye witness reports - is plausible. But a lot more evidence is needed. Has that evidence been found? If Vogel's theories are totally false, why then is a Bay Area television station preparing a documentary. Several major news organizations are after the story and why has the U.S. Government suddenly retroactively reclassified Technical Paper #6 entitled Port Chicago Explosion so that it is now top secret after nearly half a century?
Cause of Port Chicago blast never determined
By Harry V. Martin
Third in a Series
Copyright, The Napa Sentinel, 1990
At 10:18 p.m. on Monday evening, July 17, 1944, a giant explosion rocked Suisun Bay. The blast killed 320 Naval personnel and registered 3.4 on the Richter Scale in parts of Nevada. The Liberty Ship E. A. Bryan was being loaded at Port Chicago in northern Contra Costa County. Its reported cargo was 4600 tons of ammunition, including 1780 tons of high explosives. The nighttime explosion was reported as a bright white light over the sky of the San Francisco Bay Area, followed by a mushroom cloud and a strong concussion. Windows in Vacaville, Concord, Vallejo, Benicia, Martinez, Napa, and San Francisco were all blown out. Heavy doors and locks in Yountville and ship hatches at Mare Island were blown off because of the resulting concussion from the explosion.
Peter Vogel, a journalist and a man who also studied with the father of the American H-bomb, Dr. Edward Teller, told a KVON audience a few weeks ago that the explosion was that of a nuclear bomb and that it was purposefully set off as a test. Vogel's theory is based on the strength of the explosion, the secrecy after it happened, and documents from Los Alamos Laboratories which described a nuclear test blast as having simulated the Port Chicago explosion - that test was conducted a few months after the Port Chicago disaster. Of critical importance to Vogel's theory that the United States used its' own sailors as a test for the first nuclear device, was the number to explosions that occurred. He claims there was only one explosion.
THERE WERE TWO EXPLOSIONS - NOT ONE
News accounts in 1944 of eye witnesses all universally state there were two explosions. Articles from the Napa Journal, St. Helena Star Bulletin, Martinez Gazette, Vallejo Times Herald, Vallejo News-Chronicle, Oakland Tribune and San Francisco newspapers, all report two explosions. The Second explosion was mightier than the first. It was during the second explosion that the white flash and the mushroom cloud was reported.
In 1964 No Share the Glory was published by native Vallejoen Robert H. Pearson. Pearson's book, which was the untold story of the great Port Chicago disaster of 1944, focuses on black American sailors who mutinied after the Port Chicago explosion. Black sailors were not allowed to sail on U.S. warships during the war and were used for the task of loading munitions on the ships. Pearson's book describes the eye witness accounts of people who saw the Port Chicago blast first hand - from Coast Guard men on patrol, a tanker crew that was nearby, the commander of Port Chicago, and those who somehow escaped the carnage, but nontheless saw it happen.
Before the explosion, the E.A. Bryan was low in the water - heavily laden with tons of ammunition. When the Bryan exploded 323 men, five ships, a diesel engine, 16 boxcars and a small town were totally destroyed. Twelve other cities were damaged. Damage was reported as far away as 200 miles. Pearson stated on page 19 of his book. "It is estimated that the force of the blast was greater than that of a five kiloton atomic bomb." That estimate was provided in the 1960s - when the world knew atomic weapons. The contents that were loaded into the Bryan consisted of 4600 tons of fuses, Detonators, guncotton, and 10 tons of smokeless powder in bulk, The most critical and most unstable of the explosives on the ship's manifest - 1780 tons of high explosives - were loaded last. Hold Number One held incendiary bombs and small arms ammunition; Hold Number Two contained 3-inch 0.50 shells; Hold Number Three held serial bombs, some tail vanes and 5-inch 0.38 naval shells; and Hold Number Four contained fragmentation cluster bombs and a few 14-inch naval shells; The closed Hold Number Five was reported to have contained 40mm shells and small arms ammunition.
It is important to establish some critical historical points to embrace or reject Vogel's KVON discussion. The building of Port Chicago as a Naval Ammunitions Depot commenced in June 1943. The first loading pier was completed for use in May of 1944 - two days before the explosion - the Port was only 80 percent finished. the reason the Port had not been completed by then was the fact that there was a material and labor shortage - common in wartime.
NEW SHIP REFITTED
The Bryan had been launched at the Richmond Kaiser Shipyard in March 1944 and had just finished her maiden voyage to the South Pacific. Though it was a brand new ship, the Navy ordered the Bryan to dock at the Alameda shipyard two days before its reporting to Port Chicago. The Navy installed two 10-ton booms at the Number One and Number Five holds - replacing the 5-ton booms. The Captain of the Port in San Francisco, Lt. E. J. Carswell, boarded the Bryan and found it completely safe, and then issued a permit to load ammunition aboard the vessel.
The loading plan was filed. All the records of the munitions loaded aboard the Bryan are still available - except information about the contents of two box cars. The government claims that somehow, the record of those two boxcars are missing - yet they should have been part and parcel of the first manifest, which is still available.
Lt. Commander Glen Linqueist, naval inspection officer for the 12th Naval District, also found everything satisfactory aboard the Bryan prior to the loading of munitions. The new gear installed at Alameda Shipyards was also found to be in satisfactory working order.
Most of the crew from the Bryan took leave from the ship. On several occasions during the three day loading process, shells and bombs were accidentally dropped - but none resulted in any type of explosion or damage. Along side the Bryan was the S. S. Quinalt Victory, a 7606 ton vessel which had only been commissioned a week before the blast.
The Bryan was loaded with 5292 barrels of bunker C-type diesel fuel oil. The Navy had recently refitted the Bryan with a 10-ton crane to fit Holds Number One and Five. But, during the entire loading process, Hold Number Five remained closed. The Commander of Port Chicago, Captain Merril T. Kinne, was appointed to his post on April 12, 1944 - three months before the explosion.
What was the Bryan's destination? It was destined for Tinian, in the Mariana Islands. Tinian was where the Enola Gay took off to drop the first atomic bomb on Japan in 1945.
CAUSE NEVER OFFICIALLY DETERMINED BY NAVY
The actual cause of the Port Chicago disaster was never officially or publicly established. Three days after the explosion, Rear Admiral Carleton H. Wright, commander of the 12th Naval District, convened a board of inquiry in San Francisco. After hearing all the evidence, the board could not determine the exact cause or circumstance of the first explosion, but did issue a list of seven circumstances that might have caused the disaster.
"That the Naval and Coast Guard personnel killed or injured in this explosion and listed in the Finding of the Facts, were killed or injured in the line of duty and not because of their own misconduct. The probable cause of the first explosion listed in the order of chance are:
Presence of a supersensitive element which was detonated while handling.
Rough handling by a person or individuals. This might have happened at any stage of the loading process from the breaking out of the cars to the final stowage in the holds.
Failure of handling gear, such as the falling of a boom, failure of a block or a hook, parting of a whip, etc.
Collision of the switch engine with an explosive-loaded car, possibly in unloading.
An accidental incident to the carrying away of the mooring lines of the Quinalt Victory or the bollards which the Quinalt Victory was moored, resulting in damage to an explosive component.
The result of an act of sabotage. Although there is no proof to support sabotage as a possible cause, it cannot be eliminated as a possibility.
Eye witnesses reported seeing both ships secure and all gear in place moments before the first blast. The theory of the crane or equipment falling, or a ship loose from its mooring cannot be sustained by eye witnesses, thus eliminating those possibilities.
REMAINING PART OF SERIES
In the two remaining articles in this series, we will examine a unique report never made public before - The Computational Evaluation for the Energy Released in the Port Chicago Explosion: a different theory than Vogel claimed on KVON. Why nine German officers and two guard dogs are secretly buried in Benicia - having died within a short span of time from the Port Chicago blast: What scientists at Los Alamos deduce from the explosion: and some critical eye witness reports. Did this explosion in anyway impact the conduct of the waning years of World War Two? Those questions will be thoroughly examined in the remaining part of the series.
Evidence points to a Port Chicago nuclear device
By Harry V. Martin
Fourth in a Series
Copyright, The Napa Sentinel, 1990
The question of Port Chicago really comes down to two basic questions:
1. Was the Port Chicago blast caused by a nuclear explosion?
2. If it was, did the United States government purposely set off the bomb as a test?
These are the two allegations which were made on KVON radio by Peter Vogel, a journalist and a man who also studied with the father of the American H-Bomb, Dr. Edward Teller.
In previous articles we have discussed Vogel's theory, the impact of the blast, the history of the port and the ships involved, the findings of a Board of Review, eye witness accounts, and the fact - established by official records of the U.S. Department of Energy - that the U.S. government did have the capability of producing several nuclear weapons at the time of the Port Chicago blast - despite denials to the contrary. Now we're down to the nuts and bolts of answering the two basic questions involved. Technical Report No. 6. Army-Navy Explosives Safety Board, on the Port Chicago blast has been reclassified by Los Alamos Lab - it could answer at least one the questions asked. The Napa Sentinel is seeking the documents under the Federal Freedom of Information Act, and may file suit in federal court to have the documents declassified after 45 years.
A research paper was submitted on December 7, 1988 entitled Computational Evaluation for the Energy Released in the Port Chicago Explosion. This report evaluates the energy released by the 1944 explosion at Port Chicago on July 17, 1944. The explosion occurred while the Liberty ship E.A Bryan was loading 1780 tons of high explosives and 4600 tons of ammunition - the shipment was destined for Tinian - the island from which the Enola Gay took off enroute to dropping the first atomic bomb on Japan, the Hiroshima bomb was dropped 13 months after the Port Chicago explosion.
The research document creates the theoretical energy released at Port Chicago, based upon the calculation and probable energy source, using the 1780 tons of high explosive. The paper analyzes detonation of fuel, high explosives and a nuclear bomb. These sources are then compared to the probable energy expended into production of the Bay floor crater, heat energy and seismic energy caused by the 1944 explosion.
The report states simply, "If the probable energy expended markedly exceeded that which a chemical explosion could supply, then an additional source of energy (possible nuclear) must have been present." The report states, "It is not now possible to determine with certainty the precise nature of the 1944 explosion at Port Chicago. The reclassification of a pertinent document, Technical Report No. 6, Army-Navy Explosives Safety Board, prohibits any such definitive conclusions. However, given the size of the crater formed by the explosion and the distance the debris was scattered, a calculation of the theoretical explosive energy released can be compared to the probable source of the energy." The report uses a "worst case" scenario to the amount of energy generated. This means that the report provides the benefit of the doubt toward aspects subscribing to a non-nuclear explosion. For instance, it assumes that all 1780 tons of explosives were aboard the ship and went off high order (spontaneously) and all at full power). And that the ship's fuel was at capacity and detonated.
"At this point, the only conclusion to be drawn is a follows: While there may have been an additional explosive energy source present (such as a low yield nuclear device), the explosive energy derived from the conventional munitions is in agreement with the lower limit for the calculated total energy given-off by the explosion, and thus, the explosion might have been purely conventional (non-nuclear) in origin."
The specific facts the report could rely on were that the amount of explosives present was 1780 tons, and the size of the crater created by the explosion, was 66 feet deep, 300 feet wide and 700 feet long.
The report did discover that a measurement of the blast crater in 1944 had more than doubled in size by 1946 - indicating that the government may well have made every attempt to retrieve any remains or evidence still at the bottom of Suisun Bay. The report could not confirm the type of fuel used by the Bryan, but selected the probability of diesel fuel. The Sentinel has ascertained that the ship was indeed loaded with 5292 barrels of bunker C-type diesel fuel oil.
The report further states that Vogel's comment as to the fireball being white does not prove it was nuclear in origin. The report also states that it is unlikely that the fuel aboard the vessel caused the explosion.
The report estimates the magnitude of the blast was between (10)18 to (10)72 ergs. Is this the magnitude of a non-nuclear or a nuclear explosion? The report addresses that issue. If the Port Chicago disaster had been caused by a chemical explosion, the maximum energy expenditure would be expected to approach (10)18 ergs - the low end of the estimated magnitude of the Poet Chicago blast. the report qualifies that statement. "However, the likely expenditure for such a chemical explosion would be a fraction of this value, since the maximum value would require all the explosives and fuel to go off in high order fashion. If the Port Chicago disaster had been caused by a nuclear bomb, the energy expenditure would be expected to approach the order of (10)72 ergs."
"While the energy expenditure from a nuclear explosion fits this calculation of energy expenditure better than does the chemical explosion, a purely chemical explosion would have produced sufficient energy to be in agreement with the low end of the calculated range. Therefore, no conclusion can be drawn at this time as to the exact nature of the explosion: further information would be required to refine the calculated energy figure and reduce its uncertainty. Unfortunately, since this information has now been reclassified, calculation refinements are no longer possible," the report concludes.
So what we have in this report is the estimate of a magnitude. The only way a conventional explosion could have caused the blast was if everything had gone off at one time - something that is not too common in munitions explosions. Add this report to other information to:
the report of a nuclear explosion entitled, History of 10,000 ton gadget, which states on the bottom line of Step 11, "Ball of fire mushroom out a 18,000 ft, in typical Port Chicago fashion."
the reclassification four decades later of a report on the Port Chicago blast - which has no military value today:
and the top government scientists dispatched to Port Chicago after the blast, and their respective role in the building of nuclear weapons:
the specific destination of the Bryan - Tinian in the Mariana Islands, the same site the Enola Gay used to take off from to drop the first atomic bomb on Japan:
and the Hydrodynamic Theory of Surface Explosions, which indicated that the bomb would have to be delivered by surface ship because there was no aircraft that could carry the weight, and the U.S. did not have a close enough base to Japan for aircraft delivery.
There is very strong evidence to suggest that a nuclear weapon was indeed at Port Chicago - a bomb enroute to Tinian or some other South Pacific Island. But was Port Chicago a test for the bomb? Would the government purposely destroy a port that was only 80 percent completed? Would it destroy two brand new ships? Would it kill 320 U.S. Naval personnel?
Just because a nuclear weapon probably existed at Port Chicago does not mean the port was a test sight of the bomb. This question is explored in the final article on Tuesday.
CONCLUSION, PORT CHICAGO
By Harry V. Martin
Last of a Five Part Series
Copyright, The Napa Sentinel, 1990
More than two years before the United States entered World War II, Albert Einstein sent a letter to President Franklin D. Roosevelt, informing him that a nuclear bomb was possible. That letter was written on August 2, 1939. "A single bomb of this type, carried by boat and exploded in a port, might very well destroy the whole port together with some of the surrounding territory," Einstein wrote. "However, such bombs might very well prove to be too heavy for transportation by air."
U.S. government sources have verified that the two atomic bombs dropped on Japan in 1945 were transported to Tinian Airstrip in August 1945 enroute to bomb Hiroshima, the B29 barely made it off the ground. The bomb had to be armed in mid-flight. There have been persistent - yet unverified reports - that a heavily guarded compound at Mare Island during World War II contained components of a nuclear weapon.
Contrary to public belief, the final specifications of the atomic bomb used on Hiroshima had been completed by mid-February 1944. This is verified by a 600 page report on the Manhattan District History. The hardware for at least three of the Hiroshima-type weapons were ordered by the end of March, 1944.
STRONG EVIDENCE
There is very strong circumstantial evidence to indicate that a nuclear weapon was aboard one of two ships that blew up at Port Chicago on the evening of Monday, July 17. What makes the evidence so strong, is not only written documentation concerning the blast, but also the itinerary of key people in the nuclear community after the blast. A Los Alamos document that describes the testing of an atomic device - and all its parameters - clearly states in Step 11. "Ball of fire mushroom out at 18,000 ft. in typical Port Chicago fashion." The Los Alamos document, prepared a short time after the Port Chicago explosion, History of 10,000 Ton Gadget, provides 11 steps of a nuclear explosion: (Though you do not have to understand nuclear physics, follow the steps to the end.)
1. Detonation.
2. Detonation wave reaches temper 18,5 x 2,54 over 7 x 10.
3. Temp and active fully compressed.
4. Neutrons multiply and shock wave hits temper 18/2 x 10.
5. Shock wave passes through H.E. and case to reach air 74/2 x 10.
6. Radiation squirts out, temperature drops and isothermal sphere formed.
7. Strong blast wave expands.
8. Ball of fire fully expands.
9. Blast wave reaches damage area.
10. In a test, blast wave would reach installation and observers at 10,000 yards. Also ball of fire reached height of 2000 ft. and completely disintegrated into turbulent convection currents.
11. Ball of fire mushroom out at 18,000 ft in typical Port Chicago fashion.
The fact that this classified document on the testing of an atomic bomb came from Los Alamos and specifically refers to Port Chicago, is clear evidence of a nuclear device. But that is not all the evidence available.
CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS
In a classified document dated July 21, 1944 - four days after the Port Chicago explosion - there is more fragile evidence of something out of the ordinary. The District Intelligence Officer wrote confidential memorandum 11-3-16137 to the Commandant Twelfth Naval District. The report states, there were reports "of a shiny black car reported to have been seen at approximately 2130 (hours) at the foot of the pier, but no information was developed to indicate that any unauthorized vehicle of such description was seen to enter or leave the (Port Chicago) Naval Magazine at any time which might reasonably be connected with the explosion." The vehicle was not a Navy vehicle nor was its business explained, but it did have authorization to be near the pier, suggesting a top secret meeting. Were the occupants of the vehicle from the scientific community? There are possible links we will explore later in this article.
At the same time, the Navy was photographing Port Chicago from across the Bay - a safe distance from the explosion. The Navy captured the Port Chicago explosion on a nitrate-base film. That film was held in the safe of the Concord Naval Weapons Station. The Navy claims that the film was a simulation of the Port Chicago explosion filmed for Hollywood in the 1960s But nitrate-base film has not been produced since prior to 1950.
Though Peter Vogel, who theorized that a nuclear weapon existed at Port Chicago, was granted permission to review the film and obtain still shots - once his theory of an atomic weapon was known by the Navy, the film was destroyed. About the same time, a key document, Technical Report No. 6 on the Port Chicago Explosion was suddenly reclassified to top secret after years of being declassified. Some Los Alamos scientists have privately stated that the explosion at Port Chicago was caused by an atomic weapon.
TOP NUCLEAR SCIENTISTS INVESTIGATE PORT CHICAGO
Perhaps the most convincing aspect of the atomic bomb theory, is not what happened before the blast - but after. The test document, History of 10,000 Ton Gadget, was prepared by a group at the Los Alamos laboratories under the direction of Joseph O. Hirschfelder. His group's work is found in the Manhattan District History, Project Y. The Los Alamos Project. Vol. 1. 1944 I.A.M.S. 2532, Los Alamos 1961. The Manhattan Project has become known to the public as the building of the first atomic bomb. The Manhattan Project documents refer to work accomplished after August 1, 1944, and in particular the History of 10,000 Ton Gadget. Hirschfelder was given the responsibility for completing the earlier investigation of damage of the general phenomenology of a nuclear explosion. These investigations included the formation of the shock wave in the air, the radiation history of the early stages of the explosion, the formation of the ball of fire, the attenuation of the blast wave in air at great distances, and the effects of blast and radiation on human beings and structures.
Immediately following the Port Chicago explosion, a team of Los Alamos Laboratories scientists made an assessment of the Port Chicago explosion. There exists some 400 - 600 pages of reports and memoranda at Los Alamos which report the various parameters and artifacts of the Port Chicago explosion. U.S. Naval Captain William J. Parsons prepared the data and had them transmitted to Rear Admiral W. R. Purnell, who was a member of the Atomic Bomb Military Policy Committee, Admiral Purnell was Parsons' superior officer. Parsons was the bombing officer on board the Enola Gay, which dropped the U235 weapon over Hiroshima. In 1946 he was chairman of the Joint Crossroads Committee, which planned the Bikini test, and he was Deputy Task Force Commander for Technical Direction of the Bikini nuclear tests. Parsons was instrumental in designing, constructing and testing the world's first atomic bomb. He worked directly under J. Robert Oppenheimer.
Parsons authored a report on Port Chicago - Effects of the Tidal Wave in the Port Chicago Explosion. Throughout the investigation of the Port Chicago blast, the nuclear research laboratories at Los Alamos, the key figures in the building of the atomic bomb, all link to Port Chicago. Los Alamos also maintains copies of the records of 16 box cars that contained munitions for Port Chicago. The records of two of those box cars, however, are not available. Were they used to carry nuclear components?
It is reasonably safe to indicate, with reference to various articles already published in this series, that an atomic weapon did exist at Port Chicago at the time of the July 17, 1944 explosion. The next question, testing Vogel's theory, is: was Port Chicago used by the U.S. government to test the first atomic bomb?
A TEST OR AN ACCIDENT?
Vogel maintains that Port Chicago was used as a test site for the first atomic bomb. "If the explosion was filmed at the Port Chicago site, it would follow that the explosion was planned and anticipated." Vogel states. "There is very little doubt in my mind that the explosion and disaster which occurred at Port Chicago was the result of an intentional detonation of a U235 gun assembly weapon, which was conducted to demonstrate the effects of a surface delivery of that device to a harbor facility." But was it?
To explore Vogel's theory, it is necessary to take some of the elements used by Vogel. A large part of his theory rests on the insistence that there was only one explosion. In almost every report, newspaper articles of that time, or eyewitness statements, two explosions were reported. Those reports, articles and statements may be correct - while at the same time, Vogel's theory may also be correct. A nuclear explosion has two phases - the pressure phase and the suction phase. These two phases may actually sound like and appear to be two different explosions, when in fact it is the same explosion occurring seconds apart. Most witnesses have stated the explosions were about 45 seconds apart. They report that the dock blew up first and then the ship. Vogel's theory of one explosion cannot be discounted - nor can the two explosion theory.
If there were two explosions, there is a strong possibility of an accident in the loading of conventional ammunition aboard the E.A. Bryan, which in turn ignited the low-yield nuclear device which weighed approximately 9000 pounds.
RE-CREATING EVENTS
A re-creation of the events of July 17, 1944, are necessary to test Vogel's theory. The scenario presented is one that coincides with official classified Navy documents of the investigation, eye witness reports, newspaper reports, and other publications.
The ammunition depot at Port Chicago was only 80 percent completed, but was one of the main sources of supply for the Pacific fleet. The dock facilities could handle the largest ammunition carriers in the Navy. It was under the jurisdiction of the Naval Commander at Mare Island.
The E.A. Bryan docked at Port Chicago on July 13 and the loading of munitions began at 8:30 a.m. that morning and continued until the explosion 109 hours and 49 minutes later. Here is a list of the contents being loaded:
50.04 tons of 20-mm HEI Tetryl Cartridges.
50.09 tons of 5-inch 38-calibre Common Projectiles.
36 tons of 16-inch Tar. Mk2-4A Projectiles.
87.55 tons of 1000 lb. GP AN-M65 TNT Bombs.
106 tons of 1000 lb. AP AN-M33 Bombs.
26 tons of Fin assemblies for AN M-65 Bombs.
60.35 tons of incendiary Cluster M7.
97 tons of 350 lb. DB AN-Mk 47 Torpex Bombs.
93.52 tons of 100 lb. Fragmentation Cluster An-M4.
42 tons of 40-mm AP Tracer Cartridges.
The placement of the ammunition in the E.A. Bryan were as follows:
No. 1 hold - smoke bombs.
No. 2 hold - Torpex.
No. 3 hold - Tail fins for air bombs.
No. 4 hold - Fragmentation bombs.
No. 5 hold - 40-mm ammunition.
The Bryan's holds were as deep as a four-story building. The ship had only completed its maiden voyage earlier that year and had been refitted with 10-ton booms before arriving at Port Chicago.
Navy records indicate different problems plagued the loading of the E.A. Bryan. There had been trouble with the steam winches - which had no brakes, and meant that any cargo being hoisted could slam to the ground if steam power was lost at any time. There were also bearing and valve problems with the winches. More problems occurred when the crank bearing on the No. 2 winch began making a hammering noise - its bearing had to be replaced. On the day of the explosion a bleeder valve on the No. 4 winch had gone out and had to be repaired. A plumber repairing a nipple on the bleeder valve said upon completion of his repairs, "I don't like the look of things around here." The man had just observed one of the deck hands lose his grip on a shell - it dropped two feet and hit the deck with a thud.
The incendiary bombs had their activating mechanisms, or fuses, installed. They were considered "hot cargo" and were being loaded gingerly, one bomb at a time. "The men were having some difficulty getting the bombs out of the boxcar because they were wedged on so tightly," one officer testified.
AT THE HEARING
A Naval inquiry after the explosion called upon 125 witnesses to testify. At the hearing there was a major dispute centered on whether unsafe loading practices where employed at Port Chicago, and why no Coast Guard loading detail was present the night of the explosion. The Coast Guard and the Port Director's Office had inexperienced personnel who were unable to properly supervise the loading operation and created problems for the work.
Records also show that as early as October 1943, the Coast Guard warned the Port Director, "Conditions are bad up there (at Port Chicago), you've got to do something about itÉif you aren't careful, something's going to happen, and you'll be held responsible for it." An effort to bring in contract stevedores and experienced officers failed. The captain of the port decided to withdraw the Coast Guard detail because conditions were so bad that he was unwilling to take responsibility for it. Contract stevedores were used at other Bay Area Navy facilities, but not at Port Chicago or Mare Island. The Coast Guard loading detail was absent on the night of the explosion.
The inquiry was also very concerned over encouraged competition between loading crews. "The loading of explosives should never be a matter if competition," the inquiry stated. The witnesses also stated that "the colored enlisted personnel are neither temperamentally or intellectually capable of handling high explosives. These men could not understand the orders which were given to them and the only way they could be made to understand what they should do was by actual demonstration." The court did find that there was rough and careless handling of the explosives being loaded aboard ships at Port Chicago.
"Inherent defects in the bombs might have been a contributory cause, but there must have been some overt act to cause the bomb to actually explode," the court stated. Though it never found an exact cause for the explosion, the court did consider the "Presence of a supersensitive element which was detonated in the course of rough handling."
Another classified document reveals concern for the loading of ammunition at Port Chicago. Confidential memoranda ND12-16-Bd (SC) S78 Serial 40312, from the Commandant Twelfth Naval District to the Officer-in-Charge, Naval Ammunition Deport, Port Chicago, was written on September 23, 1944 - two months after the explosion. The memoranda called attention to the Torpex bombs - there were 97 tons of these bombs being loaded. "Torpex generates a hydrogen gas which causes expansion within the projectile, rending it necessary on occasion to release this gas in order to reduce the projectile's sensitivity to accidental detonation."
The 6-day-old Quinault Victory arrived at Port Chicago at approximately 7 p.m. on July 17 - less than three hours before the explosion. It was not being loaded, but was opposite the pier from the E.A. Bryan. It was the Quinault Victory that the visitors of the "shiny, black car" were visiting.
The box cars were on the pier. The first explosion is reported to have taken the pier out first - the second explosion on the ships.
TESTING VOGEL'S THEORY
Now, on the assumption that Vogel's theory is correct, that the government purposely blew up Port Chicago, there are certain characteristics that are important:
The ship would not be mixed with loaded munitions because the total test result would be inaccurate.
Would the government destroy its most productive West coast ammunition port which was only 80 percent completed?
Would two brand new ships be used in a test, rather than older vessels?
Would an untested bomb be used in a populated area and jeopardize thousands of lives and critical infrastructure?
Would there be two explosions? And why would the pier area blow up before the ship?
There are too many improbabilities associated with Vogels' theory of a test - when other facilities in the South Pacific or more isolated, less important facilities could have been use as a test site.
POSSIBLE SCENARIO
Based upon the records and documents that have been made public and at least reviewed, the following scenario might be drawn:
The first atomic bomb was indeed loaded. Not on the E.A. Bryan, but on the Quinault Victory.
That bomb, like the two later dropped on Japan, was destined for the South Pacific. The bomb would be held on Tinian and a B29 - which already existed - would carry that bomb over Japan.
The "shiny, black car" contained scientists from Los Alamos, checking on the security of the system.
The Navy was filming Port Chicago - not to capture an explosion, but to provide a complete documentary of the ship's progress, the filming process would continue through delivery to Tinian and beyond.
Because it was an atomic bomb that exploded, the U.S. government had to classify everything so as to avoid the enemy learning of the device. Future reclassification could protect the U.S. from a major international embarrassment during a nuclear-freeze frenzy in this country.
There was some type of accident in the loading process, which caused a major explosion - but not he main one. That explosion ruptured and activated the nuclear device.
Obviously, these theories are speculative at best, but they are based upon the documentation that even some of the Naval inquiry people did not have in 1944. Regardless of Vogel's conspiracy theory - the fact is that Vogel has provided sufficient evidence to prove a very high probability that a low-yield atomic explosion destroyed Port Chicago - and that American sailors were the first nuclear casualties in warfare, not the Japanese.
SOURCES
The Effects of Nuclear Weapons, U.S. Department of Defense, U.S. Atomic Energy Commission, 1962.
Computational Evaluation for the Energy Released in the Port Chicago Explosion, 1988.
Confidential Memoranda B-3-16437 from District Intelligence Officer, Twelfth Naval District on Explosion Naval Magazine, Port Chicago, July 21, 1944. Declassified 1989.
Confidential Memoranda ND12-16-Bd (SC) S78 Serial 40312 from Commandant, Twelfth Naval District, Evaluation of Hydrogen from Torpex, September 23, 1944. Declassified 1989.
Intra-Office memoranda ND12-02-MI-WWJ from District Legal Offices, Board of Investigation of damages sustained by Port Chicago, August 14, 1945. Declassified 1989.
Letter to Don Cox, Enrichment Office Division, U.S. Department of Energy, Oakridge, Tennessee, Production of U235 during the years 1913-1919. December 9, 1980.
Manhattan District History, Project Y. The Los Alamos Project, Vol. 1, LAMS-2532. Los Alamos 1961.
History of a 10,000 ton gadget, Los Alamos Laboratories Autumn 1944.
KVON Doubletalk with Peter Vogel, December 26, 1989.
The Port Chicago Mutiny, Robert L. Allen, 1989.
No Share of Glory, Robert E. Pearson, 1964.
California History, Black vs. Navy Blue: The Mare Island Mutiny Court Martial, Charles Wollenberg, Spring 1979.
The Black Scholar, Port Chicago Disaster And Its Aftermath, Robert Allen, 1982
The Black Scholar, The Last Wave From Port Chicago, Peter Vogel, July 1982.
Interview. Peter Vogel, January 1990.
San Jose Mercury News, Port Chicago remains enigma 45 years later, July 16, 1989.
San Francisco Chronicle, Blast Death Toll Now 377: 1000 Injured! July 19, 1944.
St. Helena Star, Terrific Explosion at Port Chicago Startles St. Helena Residents, July 211, 19454.
Napa Journal, Phone Crews Act Quickly to Mend Explosion Damage, July 28, 1944.
Napa Journal, Napa Red Cross, Doctors and Nurses Assistant at Port Chicago. July 21, 1944.
Additional evidence surfaces in Port Chicago Blast
By Harry V. Martin
Sometimes obscure personal documents from the past can help to substantiate theories of today. Recently the Napa Sentinel ran a series of articles on the Port Chicago explosion. The articles indicated that the theory of Peter Vogel, as voiced on KVON's Doubletalk, had plausibility in one area, and lacked supporting documentation in the other.
The article stated Vogel's theory was that an atomic bomb exploded at Port Chicago was highly plausible according to documents obtained by Vogel and the Sentinel. The article disputed Vogel's claim that the atomic explosion was really a test conducted by the U.S. Navy. The Sentinel maintained that the explosion was an accident - and perhaps a nuclear accident, at that.
New information has surfaced to give additional credibility to the nuclear accident theory. Carl Wehr, who died some time ago, was a Navy commander at Port Chicago and other ammunition loading facilities on the West Coast. His widow still lives in St. Helena. Wehr wrote a history of his Naval career entitled Up Through The Hawse Pipe, a compendium of events of life in the working navy through the enlisted ranks to commission status. Wehr's records were not written for public review, but his comments on pages 33 through 36 give credence to the Sentinel articles. The Sentinel did not exist during Wehr's lifetime.
"By 1944, we were shipping 180,000 tons (ammunition) a month to the Pacific theater. We loaded ammunition out of every major port on the West Coast, the largest tonnage by far, going through facilities in the Bay Area - principally the ammunition depot at Port Chicago which was built primarily as a shipping terminal for ammunition," his personal notes state. Wehr indicates that some 250 box car loads of ammunition were in revetment on the base waiting to load, "The explosion aboard the Quinault Victory took took 322 lives, most of them instantly. The dead were the ship's crew, stevedores, and trainmen," The amazing fact, according to Wehr, who was a high official at Port Chicago, was that of the 250 car loads of ammunition waiting to be loaded and in the revetments, "none of the ammunition was damaged."
Wehr pointed out what he felt might have been the cause of the explosion, though he admits he had not seen any official reports. "We do know that Torpex bombs were being loaded that night and it's quite possible that one of these could have been roughly handled or even dropped down into the hold of the ship," he wrote. "Torpex was a new explosive introduced into the Navy early in the war, it was extremely powerful, much more than the standard TNT, and more sensitive. Wehr cited two incidents related to torpex. "There were two accidents reported involving torpex bombs. In one case, a bomb fell from a bomb trailer being towed along a runway at an airfield near Norfork, Virginia and exploded. In another instance a torpex bomb exploded at the ammunition depot on Oahu in the Hawiian Islands. This occurred when the bomb was jolted in handling." Wehr also stated. "The explosive had a propensity on rare occasions to detonate with rough handling. And rough handling of ammunition in the loading operation was not uncommon." Wehr added, "One day at Port Chicago, I was standing near a hatch watching gun powder for fourteen inch guns being loaded. A damaged container holding nearly a hundred pounds of smokeless powder was set aside on the hatch cover, one of the loading crew was told to remove it, which he did - by rolling it along with his foot. The container got away from him and dropped through the open hatch and down two decks."
The Sentinel had projected that torpex bombs may have accidentally exploded - and if a nuclear device was at the Port, set it off as well.
Vogel theorized that the explosion was actually a test of an atomic weapon and the Port was expendable. The Sentinel theory indicated that whatever type of explosion it was, it was accidental. "The loss of the Port Chicago facility was aggravated by the severe restriction placed on the movement and handling of explosives at facilities other than those specifically designated for that use," Wehr wrote. "After the explosion, we couldn't transport a thirty caliber bullet over the Bay Bridges. Moreover, loading demands increased as tonnage escalated. For the invasion of Okinawa I needed berthing for twelve shiploads of Marine Corps ammunition. I flew to Seattle and, in conference with the Commandant of the Thirteenth Naval District and the Coast Guard, arranged for loading several ships at Tacoma." Wehr was admitting that the destruction of Port Chicago was a crippling blow to the war effort as a major push was being made to capture Okinawa and the Marianas.
The Sentinel articles also indicated that the atomic bomb that dropped on Hiroshima was shipped aboard the cruiser U.S.S. Indianapolis. In Wehr's notes he states, "One night about midnight, I received a telephone call at home from a lieutenant at the Oakland Naval Supply Depot, saying the Southern Pacific had two express cars which had arrived at the rail yard with a shipment of classified material identified only as "Bowery." The cars were under Marine guard and what to do with them? I told him I knew nothing about it but would get on it first thing the next morning. At eight o'clock the next morning I went into the office of my commanding officer, Commander Weatherwax, and told him of the arrival of project "Bowery." He leaped to his feet and shouted, "Where the hell did you learn about Bowery? The Admiral, the Chief of Staff and myself know of this!" After he calmed down, he told me this was a highly classified project and he would take care of it himself. Later I learned that "Bowery" was the first atomic bomb shipment. It was loaded aboard the cruiser Indianapolis and shipped to Guam." He even verified the statement in the Sentinel that the Indianapolis was sunk after delivering the bomb.
After the Port Chicago blast, the manifest of the destroyed box cars were revealed after a public records request. The government supplied all the details of every boxcar - except two. The government indicated that the manifests of those two boxcars probably contained the nuclear components and that the manifests were classified top secret. In Wehr's report of the atomic bomb shipment to Port Chicago in 1945 - less than a year after the explosion - he stated the contents were contained in two box cars. Accidents do happen. In 1957 - 13 years after Port Chicago - an Air Force plane hit turbulence over New Mexico and it accidently dropped a hydrogen bomb, which was 625 times greater than the atomic bomb that was used on Hiroshima, The U.S. government covered up this accident until 1985, when an Albuquerque journalist began investigating New Mexico's nuclear weapons research facilities with a simple question: Have they ever had any nuclear accidents? He finally filed a Freedom of Information Act request with the Pentagon - 10 months later the file was released. The 42,000 pound MK-17 bomb was the nation's first "droppable" hydrogen bomb. It was the largest bomb ever produced by the United States.
Fortunately, in this case, the explosives gouged a 25-foot crater in the earth, but the nuclear device was not detonated. Like the Port Chicago case, the U.S. government emphatically denied the accident, but when it released the public records, it showed the government had lied. The journalist challenged the governments first refusal to submit the material. He wrote, "It strains the credibility of the Air Force to contend that release of information about accidents involving 35-and 28-year-old weapons - which are now obsolete - will in any way endanger national security. "After 10 months, the investigative reporter received stacks of document from the Air Force Inspection and Safety Center concerning the nuclear accident.
The old diary and the Freedom of Information Act provides critical data that is not easily obtained from government officials - who will often deny events at first. When the media accepts the government's line, without verification, it only serves to aid deception and misinformation,. The Sentinel has filed a Freedom of Information Act request to obtain full documentation on the Port Chicago blast, including Technical Report No. 6 which was reclassified after inquiries about the explosion began to proliferate.
Except the pictures of the damaged area show it WASN'T a Nuclear device.
This is obvious CONVENTIONAL WEAPON Blast damage.



Arthur
This is obvious CONVENTIONAL WEAPON Blast damage.



Arthur
QUOTE
why has the U.S. Government suddenly retroactively reclassified Technical Paper #6 entitled Port Chicago Explosion so that it is now top secret after nearly half a century?
This is eerily reminiscent of the government withdrawing documents that Robert Stinnet used to research his blockbuster, "Day of Deceit"
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| why has the U.S. Government suddenly retroactively reclassified Technical Paper #6 entitled Port Chicago Explosion so that it is now top secret after nearly half a century? |
This is eerily reminiscent of the government withdrawing documents that Robert Stinnet used to research his blockbuster, "Day of Deceit"
(this quote is from Stinnet, shown in the reviews of his book at amazon.com)
Immediately after Day of Deceit appeared in bookstores in 1999, NSA began withdrawing pre-Pearl Harbor documents from the Crane Files housed in Archives II. This means the government decided to continue 60 years of Pearl Harbor censorship. As of January 2002, over two dozen NSA withdrawal notices have triggered the removal of Pearl Harbor documents from public inspection.
The number of pages in the withdrawn documents appears to be in the hundreds.
Anybody who wants to understand the type of mindset that can lead to a 911, and how the government is ready, willing, and able to cover up it's crimes and murderous deceits would do well to read "Day of Deceit".
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 24 2005, 01:23 PM)
Except the pictures of the damaged area show it WASN'T a Nuclear device.
This is obvious CONVENTIONAL WEAPON Blast damage.



Arthur
Hmmmm....
Amazing stuff!
I had never heard about 'this one' before.
Just checking by, while on the way to other festivities.
Take care, people.
Adoucette...
Except the pictures of the damaged area show it WASN'T a Nuclear device.
This is obvious CONVENTIONAL WEAPON Blast damage.
Personally, I don't want to take a 'position' on this (other than to oppose the idea that 'governments' are benevolent and would NEVER harm their own citizens...
[Plato pretty much did away with that theory in 'The Republic' a couple of thousand years ago]...
and this 'position'seems like utter bunk to me).
------------------
However, your 'response' seems interesting, arthur.
What leads you to the conclusion that the photos show an 'OBVIOUS' Conventional Weapons Blast ?
( not that I'm disputing you... just interested in how you come to that conclusion, and based upon what parameters ???)
Thanks...
Later
This is obvious CONVENTIONAL WEAPON Blast damage.



Arthur
Hmmmm....
Amazing stuff!
I had never heard about 'this one' before.
Just checking by, while on the way to other festivities.
Take care, people.
Adoucette...
QUOTE
Except the pictures of the damaged area show it WASN'T a Nuclear device.
This is obvious CONVENTIONAL WEAPON Blast damage.
Personally, I don't want to take a 'position' on this (other than to oppose the idea that 'governments' are benevolent and would NEVER harm their own citizens...
[Plato pretty much did away with that theory in 'The Republic' a couple of thousand years ago]...
and this 'position'seems like utter bunk to me).
------------------
However, your 'response' seems interesting, arthur.
What leads you to the conclusion that the photos show an 'OBVIOUS' Conventional Weapons Blast ?
( not that I'm disputing you... just interested in how you come to that conclusion, and based upon what parameters ???)
Thanks...
Later
[QUOTE=adduced,Dec 24 2005, 03:56 AM]
As the construction diagrams show, the concrete floors of the TC were NOT reinforced with steel mesh.
Arthur
[QUOTE=Guest,Dec 23 2005, 10:44 PM]
what construction diagrams? original blueprints? film footage of construction? more NITS twist?
Did the thought ever cross your mind that arthur possesses some level of security clearance? Quite possibly, he's able to access classified files we will NEVER see in our life time. Oh!, that right, the Democrats have the same access to intelligence as the Republicans do. They tell me that every day but I keep forgetting. My mistake.
As the construction diagrams show, the concrete floors of the TC were NOT reinforced with steel mesh.
Arthur
[QUOTE=Guest,Dec 23 2005, 10:44 PM]
what construction diagrams? original blueprints? film footage of construction? more NITS twist?
Did the thought ever cross your mind that arthur possesses some level of security clearance? Quite possibly, he's able to access classified files we will NEVER see in our life time. Oh!, that right, the Democrats have the same access to intelligence as the Republicans do. They tell me that every day but I keep forgetting. My mistake.
Local damage from conventional explosives is limited mainly to fragmentation, the boat was on the pier in the pictures, so if this was a Nuke this would be "ground zero" and all of the wood you see would be incinerated, which is one of the ways that a nuclear explosion differs from conventional explosives, generation of much more heat.
About 35% of the energy from a nuclear explosion is thermal radiation. Initially, most of this energy goes into heating the bomb materials and the air in the vicinity of the blast. Temperatures of a nuclear explosion reach those in the interior of the sun, about 100,000,000° Celsius, and produce a brilliant fireball.
Two pulses of thermal radiation emerge from the fireball. The first pulse, which lasts about a tenth of a second, consists of radiation in the ultraviolet region. The second pulse which may last for several seconds, carries about 99 percent of the total thermal radiation energy. It is this radiation that is the main cause of skin burns and eye injuries suffered by exposed individuals and causes combustible materials to break into flames.

Arthur
About 35% of the energy from a nuclear explosion is thermal radiation. Initially, most of this energy goes into heating the bomb materials and the air in the vicinity of the blast. Temperatures of a nuclear explosion reach those in the interior of the sun, about 100,000,000° Celsius, and produce a brilliant fireball.
Two pulses of thermal radiation emerge from the fireball. The first pulse, which lasts about a tenth of a second, consists of radiation in the ultraviolet region. The second pulse which may last for several seconds, carries about 99 percent of the total thermal radiation energy. It is this radiation that is the main cause of skin burns and eye injuries suffered by exposed individuals and causes combustible materials to break into flames.

Arthur
QUOTE
Did the thought ever cross your mind that arthur possesses some level of security clearance? Quite possibly, he's able to access classified files we will NEVER see in our life time.
Don't forget my Super Secret Decoder Ring.
The construction of the floors is detailed in the NIST document, but I've seen the same detail on other sites.
The NIST report states the floors were not reinforced.
And it is interesting, if you look at the debris, you don't see a lot of rebar lattice that you would expect to find if they were in fact reinforced.
I mean, if they WERE reinforced you are talking about ~110 acres of reinforced rebar lattice.
Oh, unless of course they were turned to powder like the Spire.
Arthur
Yeah, no raging fire... Looks like just a few garbage cans from here...
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 24 2005, 03:56 AM)
QUOTE (frater plecticus+)
QUOTE (yesitdid+)
They provide little in the way of structural stability to the floor since all they were required to do was take the weight of the cement mix until it hardened.
This is definitely wrong. If you go back to page 4 or 5 you can see that I (Jon Pratt) have worked both as a setting out engineer and as as a structural engineer, from 1989 to 1995. The cement is supported in-situ normally with plywood, although sometimes with metal barriers (shuttering), both coated with a non-stick liquid called mold oil. The steel mesh embedded within the cement is not called reinforcement steel for nothing, without mentioning the physical impossibility of reinforcement steel (normally between 5-20 mm diameter lengths) holding up any quantity whatsoever of liquid cement.
I'm not going to speculate about the reasons for this undeniable error, you only need to know it is not true.
As the construction diagrams show, the concrete floors of the WTC were NOT reinforced with steel mesh.
Arthur
Floors
Composite floors comprise 900mm deep bar joists (spaced at 2.04 m centres and braced transversely by secondary joists) and a 10 cm thick lightweight concrete slab laid on steel trough decking as permanent formwork. Composite action between the concrete and the steelwork is ensured by extending the diagonal web members of the joists through the steel decking and embedding them in the slab. Dead weight of floor 50 kg/in2, imposed load 488 kg/in2.

Consider the following quote from Engineering News-Record, January 1, 1970.
On the 41st and 42nd floors, both towers will house mechanical equipment. To accommodate the heavy loads, the floors are designed as structural steel frame slabs. All other floors from the ninth to the top (except for 75 and 76, which will also carry mechanical equipment) have typical truss floor joists and steel decking.
Typical office floors have 4-in. thick slabs of composite construction using top chord knuckles of the joists (trusses), which extend into the slab, as shear connectors. On mechanical floors, composite action is provided by welded stud shear connectors.
So the first 8 + 6 = 14 stories, and the 41st, 42nd, 75th and 76th floors, used solid steel beams in place of trusses. Also, the top stories had special steel reinforcing diagonals called outrigger trusses.
http://bb.domaindlx.com/911TheTruth/wtc/small/godfrey.htm
QUOTE (Foxx+Dec 25 2005, 04:49 PM)
Merry Christmas...
http://www.iwilltryit.com/wtcfire1.htm
Pass it around.

Well since there is no black smoke above this impact it must have been a missile two.
Interestingly, the video of the pentiagon impact begins to turn black as they cut away... Yeah, this is unbias.. Now you'll excuse me while I remove the raindear poop from my roof.
http://www.iwilltryit.com/wtcfire1.htm
Pass it around.

Well since there is no black smoke above this impact it must have been a missile two.
Interestingly, the video of the pentiagon impact begins to turn black as they cut away... Yeah, this is unbias.. Now you'll excuse me while I remove the raindear poop from my roof.
QUOTE (Foxx+Dec 25 2005, 04:49 PM)
Merry Christmas...
http://www.iwilltryit.com/wtcfire1.htm
Pass it around.

Hi 'Common Sense'... sorry but the above doesn't quite seem to be in line with your user-name
Hope you are joking about the 'missile' at the Pentagon.
While the above streaming video ( I thought ) was well put together, AND the Pentagon security cam image analysis was 'convincing' , related to the fire/fireball/explosion 'image' in the alleged security cam images... I am of the opinion that these 'released images' are FAKE, and therefore NOTHING should be taken from them to either support or refute any opinions/speculations related to the Pentagon attack.
Having said that, let's not drift off into Pentagon hypotheses on this thread.
A more important aspect of the amazing 'Buildings-Just-Fell-Down' theory popularized by the Gravity-driven collapse supporters is the fact that they consistently skirt around the very crux of the issue... that being the amazing 'Hiding-Fires' theory that they wish to postulate as the initial cause of the weakened steel, (which allegedly LED to this weakened steel state).
NO gravity-driven collapse supporter has yet properly (or convincingly) re-butted the very words of the NIST and pre-NIST reports which state that the fires were NOT sufficiently intense (or of the duration) to weaken the steel columns in the first place.
Here again... for those who may have missed it earlier is the powerhouse report by 'Turbonium' which proves (by the official reports themselves) that there is absolutely NO Evidence to support this fairy tale that raging infernos were the cause of this global weakening of steel in the towers... (even the alleged 'engineers' at ApolloHoax would not address these facts)
Hi 'Common Sense'... sorry but the above doesn't quite seem to be in line with your user-name
Hope you are joking about the 'missile' at the Pentagon.
While the above streaming video ( I thought ) was well put together, AND the Pentagon security cam image analysis was 'convincing' , related to the fire/fireball/explosion 'image' in the alleged security cam images... I am of the opinion that these 'released images' are FAKE, and therefore NOTHING should be taken from them to either support or refute any opinions/speculations related to the Pentagon attack.
Having said that, let's not drift off into Pentagon hypotheses on this thread.
A more important aspect of the amazing 'Buildings-Just-Fell-Down' theory popularized by the Gravity-driven collapse supporters is the fact that they consistently skirt around the very crux of the issue... that being the amazing 'Hiding-Fires' theory that they wish to postulate as the initial cause of the weakened steel, (which allegedly LED to this weakened steel state).
NO gravity-driven collapse supporter has yet properly (or convincingly) re-butted the very words of the NIST and pre-NIST reports which state that the fires were NOT sufficiently intense (or of the duration) to weaken the steel columns in the first place.
Here again... for those who may have missed it earlier is the powerhouse report by 'Turbonium' which proves (by the official reports themselves) that there is absolutely NO Evidence to support this fairy tale that raging infernos were the cause of this global weakening of steel in the towers... (even the alleged 'engineers' at ApolloHoax would not address these facts)
Originally posted by Turbonium
There has been no response to this point I made earlier from the NIST report http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-3Cchaps.pdf which is found on page 235 of the pdf file. It states (I underlined some of the text for emphasis)......
"From the limited number of recovered structural steel elements, no conclusive evidence was found to indicate that pre-collapse fires were severe enough to have a significant effect on the microstructure that would have resulted in weakening of the steel structure"
This is one of the most important summary findings in the report. No evidence was found in the metallurgical analysis of the steel for fire causing the collapses.
.....
They specifically looked for steel samples from the cores of the towers that had been exposed to fire.
From the NIST report....
http://www.house.gov/science/hot/wtc/wtc-r.../WTC_apndxD.pdf
Appendix D (pages 2, 3 of pdf file)
Specifically, the engineers looked for the following types of steel members:
Exterior column trees and interior core columns from WTC 1 and WTC 2 that were exposed to fire and/or impacted by the aircraft.
Exterior column trees and interior core columns from WTC 1 and WTC 2 that were above the impact zone.
Badly burnt pieces from WTC 7.
From the draft summary ....
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NCSTAR1-3ExecutiveSummary.pdf
(page 3 of pdf file)
"A number of structural pieces were recovered from locations in or near the impact- and fire-damaged regions of the towers, including four perimeter panels directly hit by the airplane and three core columns located within these areas.
The three core columns purposely recovered from the impact and fire-damaged regions did not reach temperatures even up to 250C (as mentioned before).
They did not procure or rejected any steel samples that were not relevant for analysis due to lack of impact or fire damage. That is also significant in that this represented the vast majority of all the steel they rummaged through at the debris sites. But all of this steel was not catalogued in any way. If it had all been identified as "undamaged by fire or impact", the percentage of total steel identified would be much greater than the specifically damaged 1/4 to 1/2% they analysed.
How much of the core (and total) steel did they reject or not even procure because it was not impact or fire-damaged? 20%? 40%? 80%? They deemed this steel as insignificant for their analysis, but did not identify and include it in a database for the WTC steel. But since it was all sifted through, it could have been tagged and catalogued as such.
The towers had 400,000 tons of steel. And, "more than 350,000 tons of steel have been extracted from Ground Zero and barged or trucked to salvage yards where it is cut up for recycling." (from NIST report Appendix D, page 1 of pdf file - 1st link above) So they were able to sift through over 80% of the steel at the yards, found four core columns worthy of analysis, three of them from the impact / fire areas, and none of them exposed to fires of 250C.
So again, NIST summarizes....
http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-3Cchaps.pdf
(page 235 of pdf file)
"From the limited number of recovered structural steel elements, no conclusive evidence was found to indicate that pre-collapse fires were severe enough to have a significant effect on the microstructure that would have resulted in weakening of the steel structure"
In light of the fact over 80% of the steel was available for inspection, and was nearly all rejected for analysis, they could have stated... "Over 80% of the total steel was sifted through, and of the 1/4 to 1/2% deemed worthy of recovering, no conclusive evidence was found that pre-collapse fires were severe enough...."
I think that inspecting over 80% of the steel makes it more like "no evidence was found" than "no conclusive evidence was found"
(AH pg 69)
Sorry, where's the fire in this picture? I see water, buildings, trees, and some black smoke, but I don't see any fire (is it possible to see a garbage can from this altitude?
)
Exactly what purpose this photo serves in determining the temperature of the fires in the WTC towers escapes me, but some people wll find evidence in anything I guess.
Hope everyone had a Merry Christmas!
Sorry, where's the fire in this picture? I see water, buildings, trees, and some black smoke, but I don't see any fire (is it possible to see a garbage can from this altitude?
)
Exactly what purpose this photo serves in determining the temperature of the fires in the WTC towers escapes me, but some people wll find evidence in anything I guess.
Hope everyone had a Merry Christmas!
Common sense tells us that an office fire with asbestos paper doesn't burn hot at all!
"but some people wll find evidence in anything I guess."
What's that about a conversation between a pot and a kettle?
Sorry, where's the fire in this picture? I see water, buildings, trees, and some black smoke, but I don't see any fire (is it possible to see a garbage can from this altitude?
)
Exactly what purpose this photo serves in determining the temperature of the fires in the WTC towers escapes me, but some people wll find evidence in anything I guess.
Hope everyone had a Merry Christmas!
Common sense tells us that an office fire with asbestos paper doesn't burn hot at all!
"but some people wll find evidence in anything I guess."
What's that about a conversation between a pot and a kettle?
SPOT infrared satellite image of Manhattan, acquired on September 11 at 11:55 AM ET. Image may be freely reproduced with "CNES/SPOT Image 2001" copyright attribution: http://www.stinky.com/wtc/NYC-091101.jpg
What is this supposed to prove?
http://www.iwilltryit.com/wtcfire1.htm
Pass it around.

QUOTE
Well since there is no black smoke above this impact it must have been a missile two.
Interestingly, the video of the pentiagon impact begins to turn black as they cut away... Yeah, this is unbias.. Now you'll excuse me while I remove the raindear poop from my roof.
Interestingly, the video of the pentiagon impact begins to turn black as they cut away... Yeah, this is unbias.. Now you'll excuse me while I remove the raindear poop from my roof.
Hi 'Common Sense'... sorry but the above doesn't quite seem to be in line with your user-name
While the above streaming video ( I thought ) was well put together, AND the Pentagon security cam image analysis was 'convincing' , related to the fire/fireball/explosion 'image' in the alleged security cam images... I am of the opinion that these 'released images' are FAKE, and therefore NOTHING should be taken from them to either support or refute any opinions/speculations related to the Pentagon attack.
Having said that, let's not drift off into Pentagon hypotheses on this thread.
A more important aspect of the amazing 'Buildings-Just-Fell-Down' theory popularized by the Gravity-driven collapse supporters is the fact that they consistently skirt around the very crux of the issue... that being the amazing 'Hiding-Fires' theory that they wish to postulate as the initial cause of the weakened steel, (which allegedly LED to this weakened steel state).
NO gravity-driven collapse supporter has yet properly (or convincingly) re-butted the very words of the NIST and pre-NIST reports which state that the fires were NOT sufficiently intense (or of the duration) to weaken the steel columns in the first place.
Here again... for those who may have missed it earlier is the powerhouse report by 'Turbonium' which proves (by the official reports themselves) that there is absolutely NO Evidence to support this fairy tale that raging infernos were the cause of this global weakening of steel in the towers... (even the alleged 'engineers' at ApolloHoax would not address these facts)
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Well since there is no black smoke above this impact it must have been a missile two. Interestingly, the video of the pentiagon impact begins to turn black as they cut away... Yeah, this is unbias.. Now you'll excuse me while I remove the raindear poop from my roof. |
Hi 'Common Sense'... sorry but the above doesn't quite seem to be in line with your user-name
While the above streaming video ( I thought ) was well put together, AND the Pentagon security cam image analysis was 'convincing' , related to the fire/fireball/explosion 'image' in the alleged security cam images... I am of the opinion that these 'released images' are FAKE, and therefore NOTHING should be taken from them to either support or refute any opinions/speculations related to the Pentagon attack.
Having said that, let's not drift off into Pentagon hypotheses on this thread.
A more important aspect of the amazing 'Buildings-Just-Fell-Down' theory popularized by the Gravity-driven collapse supporters is the fact that they consistently skirt around the very crux of the issue... that being the amazing 'Hiding-Fires' theory that they wish to postulate as the initial cause of the weakened steel, (which allegedly LED to this weakened steel state).
NO gravity-driven collapse supporter has yet properly (or convincingly) re-butted the very words of the NIST and pre-NIST reports which state that the fires were NOT sufficiently intense (or of the duration) to weaken the steel columns in the first place.
Here again... for those who may have missed it earlier is the powerhouse report by 'Turbonium' which proves (by the official reports themselves) that there is absolutely NO Evidence to support this fairy tale that raging infernos were the cause of this global weakening of steel in the towers... (even the alleged 'engineers' at ApolloHoax would not address these facts)
Originally posted by Turbonium
There has been no response to this point I made earlier from the NIST report http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-3Cchaps.pdf which is found on page 235 of the pdf file. It states (I underlined some of the text for emphasis)......
"From the limited number of recovered structural steel elements, no conclusive evidence was found to indicate that pre-collapse fires were severe enough to have a significant effect on the microstructure that would have resulted in weakening of the steel structure"
This is one of the most important summary findings in the report. No evidence was found in the metallurgical analysis of the steel for fire causing the collapses.
.....
They specifically looked for steel samples from the cores of the towers that had been exposed to fire.
From the NIST report....
http://www.house.gov/science/hot/wtc/wtc-r.../WTC_apndxD.pdf
Appendix D (pages 2, 3 of pdf file)
Specifically, the engineers looked for the following types of steel members:
Exterior column trees and interior core columns from WTC 1 and WTC 2 that were exposed to fire and/or impacted by the aircraft.
Exterior column trees and interior core columns from WTC 1 and WTC 2 that were above the impact zone.
Badly burnt pieces from WTC 7.
From the draft summary ....
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NCSTAR1-3ExecutiveSummary.pdf
(page 3 of pdf file)
"A number of structural pieces were recovered from locations in or near the impact- and fire-damaged regions of the towers, including four perimeter panels directly hit by the airplane and three core columns located within these areas.
The three core columns purposely recovered from the impact and fire-damaged regions did not reach temperatures even up to 250C (as mentioned before).
They did not procure or rejected any steel samples that were not relevant for analysis due to lack of impact or fire damage. That is also significant in that this represented the vast majority of all the steel they rummaged through at the debris sites. But all of this steel was not catalogued in any way. If it had all been identified as "undamaged by fire or impact", the percentage of total steel identified would be much greater than the specifically damaged 1/4 to 1/2% they analysed.
How much of the core (and total) steel did they reject or not even procure because it was not impact or fire-damaged? 20%? 40%? 80%? They deemed this steel as insignificant for their analysis, but did not identify and include it in a database for the WTC steel. But since it was all sifted through, it could have been tagged and catalogued as such.
The towers had 400,000 tons of steel. And, "more than 350,000 tons of steel have been extracted from Ground Zero and barged or trucked to salvage yards where it is cut up for recycling." (from NIST report Appendix D, page 1 of pdf file - 1st link above) So they were able to sift through over 80% of the steel at the yards, found four core columns worthy of analysis, three of them from the impact / fire areas, and none of them exposed to fires of 250C.
So again, NIST summarizes....
http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-3Cchaps.pdf
(page 235 of pdf file)
"From the limited number of recovered structural steel elements, no conclusive evidence was found to indicate that pre-collapse fires were severe enough to have a significant effect on the microstructure that would have resulted in weakening of the steel structure"
In light of the fact over 80% of the steel was available for inspection, and was nearly all rejected for analysis, they could have stated... "Over 80% of the total steel was sifted through, and of the 1/4 to 1/2% deemed worthy of recovering, no conclusive evidence was found that pre-collapse fires were severe enough...."
I think that inspecting over 80% of the steel makes it more like "no evidence was found" than "no conclusive evidence was found"
(AH pg 69)
Hi Foxx, While you think my name may be ironic your name fits you like a glove. 
Well as I said, this...

is nothing more than a garbage fire...
I'm glade someone who uses a video he doesn't even believe in [as evidence] thinks I don't have common sense. Talk about irony.
"From the limited number of recovered structural steel elements, no conclusive evidence was found to indicate that pre-collapse fires were severe enough to have a significant effect on the microstructure that would have resulted in weakening of the steel structure"
The steel beams snapped THEN the trusses failed right... isn't that the official story? It's not? It must be because if it's not the official explanation, that web site would be lying now wouldn't it.
Divert and confuse.. Yeah, it's Rove alright..
http://www.pbase.com/peteburke73/image/1459926/original
Just a few garbage cans on fire. I could piss on that and shut it off right? Heh! ...
Well as I said, this...

is nothing more than a garbage fire...
I'm glade someone who uses a video he doesn't even believe in [as evidence] thinks I don't have common sense. Talk about irony.
"From the limited number of recovered structural steel elements, no conclusive evidence was found to indicate that pre-collapse fires were severe enough to have a significant effect on the microstructure that would have resulted in weakening of the steel structure"
The steel beams snapped THEN the trusses failed right... isn't that the official story? It's not? It must be because if it's not the official explanation, that web site would be lying now wouldn't it.
Divert and confuse.. Yeah, it's Rove alright..
http://www.pbase.com/peteburke73/image/1459926/original
Just a few garbage cans on fire. I could piss on that and shut it off right? Heh! ...
QUOTE (Common Sense+Dec 26 2005, 10:00 PM)
Sorry, where's the fire in this picture? I see water, buildings, trees, and some black smoke, but I don't see any fire (is it possible to see a garbage can from this altitude?
Exactly what purpose this photo serves in determining the temperature of the fires in the WTC towers escapes me, but some people wll find evidence in anything I guess.
Hope everyone had a Merry Christmas!
QUOTE (Mel+Dec 27 2005, 12:25 AM)
QUOTE (Common Sense+Dec 26 2005, 10:00 PM)
Sorry, where's the fire in this picture? I see water, buildings, trees, and some black smoke, but I don't see any fire (is it possible to see a garbage can from this altitude?
Exactly what purpose this photo serves in determining the temperature of the fires in the WTC towers escapes me, but some people wll find evidence in anything I guess.
Hope everyone had a Merry Christmas!
Common sense tells us that an office fire with asbestos paper doesn't burn hot at all!
"but some people wll find evidence in anything I guess."
What's that about a conversation between a pot and a kettle?
QUOTE (Common Sense+Dec 27 2005, 12:40 AM)
QUOTE (Mel+Dec 27 2005, 12:25 AM)
QUOTE (Common Sense+Dec 26 2005, 10:00 PM)
Sorry, where's the fire in this picture? I see water, buildings, trees, and some black smoke, but I don't see any fire (is it possible to see a garbage can from this altitude?
Exactly what purpose this photo serves in determining the temperature of the fires in the WTC towers escapes me, but some people wll find evidence in anything I guess.
Hope everyone had a Merry Christmas!
Common sense tells us that an office fire with asbestos paper doesn't burn hot at all!
"but some people wll find evidence in anything I guess."
What's that about a conversation between a pot and a kettle?
SPOT infrared satellite image of Manhattan, acquired on September 11 at 11:55 AM ET. Image may be freely reproduced with "CNES/SPOT Image 2001" copyright attribution: http://www.stinky.com/wtc/NYC-091101.jpg
What is this supposed to prove?
It proves at least as much as taking firefighters quotes out of context.
QUOTE (Foxx+)
NO gravity-driven collapse supporter has yet properly (or convincingly) re-butted the very words of the NIST and pre-NIST reports which state that the fires were NOT sufficiently intense (or of the duration) to weaken the steel columns in the first place.
Why SHOULD we rebut this.
It is NOT NISTs Contention that the primary cause of the collapse was failure of the central columns due to heating. Those remaining (~75%) were weakened, maybe 20 -25% by the heating, but the failure initially began with the failure of the perimeter columns.
That Turbonium post is utter BS, as NIST in its final report states that it only analyzed 1% of core columns from the fire zone and 3% of perimeter columns.
You know it would REALLY help if you ACTUALLY READ the final NIST report.
Arthur
Why SHOULD we rebut this.
It is NOT NISTs Contention that the primary cause of the collapse was failure of the central columns due to heating. Those remaining (~75%) were weakened, maybe 20 -25% by the heating, but the failure initially began with the failure of the perimeter columns.
That Turbonium post is utter BS, as NIST in its final report states that it only analyzed 1% of core columns from the fire zone and 3% of perimeter columns.
You know it would REALLY help if you ACTUALLY READ the final NIST report.
Arthur
There's really only one of 2 possibilities.
Number 1) The government is telling the truth and the Muslims really did change the laws of physics, gravity and reality that day (9/11/01)
or
Number 2) The governments story is a big lie.
Unfortunately all too many people on this board were raised to believe in Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny, so beleiving in the Bush/Cheney fairy tales is not too big of a leap.
But there are some people in here who understand that the laws of physics don't take holidays or vacations, even on 9/11, which means explosives were indeed planted in the WTC buildings beforehand.
Larry Sylverstien, the lease owner of Building 7 admitted on national television that they demolished building 7 on 9/11, within a few hours after the attack, so the next question is how do you suppose they were able to set up all those explosives in a building that was on fire within a few short hours???
By admitting they imploded building 7 they are also admitting that the explosives were in fact planted well before 9/11.
So why do you suppose they planted explosives in building 7 in advance of 9/11???
Come on folks, put on your thinking cap and try to use some common sense.
Number 1) The government is telling the truth and the Muslims really did change the laws of physics, gravity and reality that day (9/11/01)
or
Number 2) The governments story is a big lie.
Unfortunately all too many people on this board were raised to believe in Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny, so beleiving in the Bush/Cheney fairy tales is not too big of a leap.
But there are some people in here who understand that the laws of physics don't take holidays or vacations, even on 9/11, which means explosives were indeed planted in the WTC buildings beforehand.
Larry Sylverstien, the lease owner of Building 7 admitted on national television that they demolished building 7 on 9/11, within a few hours after the attack, so the next question is how do you suppose they were able to set up all those explosives in a building that was on fire within a few short hours???
By admitting they imploded building 7 they are also admitting that the explosives were in fact planted well before 9/11.
So why do you suppose they planted explosives in building 7 in advance of 9/11???
Come on folks, put on your thinking cap and try to use some common sense.
I almost forgot, here's the link to the video where Larry admits to using control demolition on building 7 http://www.iwilltryit.com/video1.htm
Now how are you bush fairy tale believers going to get around that one? You'll probably say Larry was a fake and not a real person, but sadly enough his authenticity can be verified.
You guys are looking more and more foolish by trying to defend and absolutely rediculous stroy that doesn't even come close to the real world.
Now how are you bush fairy tale believers going to get around that one? You'll probably say Larry was a fake and not a real person, but sadly enough his authenticity can be verified.
You guys are looking more and more foolish by trying to defend and absolutely rediculous stroy that doesn't even come close to the real world.
Interesting read on WTC at DesignCommunity.com
http://arch.designcommunity.com/topic-1790-0-asc-0.html
Tenenbaum blames the failure on the "weak" floor struss construction, which he says is suitable for warehouses, not highrise buildings.
It seems none of these architects/designers have any issues as to the gravity driven collapse of the buildings, but they do take issue with the design, and Tenenbaum specifically accuses FEMA of covering this up.
I did find these two parts particularly interesting (page 3 of the thread):
It may not be logical on it's face, but it's eminently logical when you consider all the tons of background (non-physics) evidence. Even the physics evidence is compelling, in that it alone debunks the government's Fairy Tale versions of collapse of WTC 1,2 & 7. (even considering that definitive computer modeling was not done).
It may not be logical on it's face, but it's eminently logical when you consider all the tons of background (non-physics) evidence. Even the physics evidence is compelling, in that it alone debunks the government's Fairy Tale versions of collapse of WTC 1,2 & 7. (even considering that definitive computer modeling was not done).
and more importantly, the second statement, which the premise is built upon, is patently false.
Wrong. Nobody yet has convincingly explained all the characteristics of the collapses (including symmetry, speed, horizontal ejection of essentially straight metal pieces, sublimation or powderization of chunks of building that fell outside WTC 1&2 footprints, lack of any identifiable objects in ejecta (except for the straight metal pieces, which were NOT sublimating), extraordinary and persistent hot metal at ground zero) using a conventional physics approach consistent with the government Fairy Tales.
Then, of course, there's the weird, telescoping, powderizing collapse of the spire, which is explained by neither a gravity driven US Government Fairy Tale "explanation", nor by an explosives hypothesis.
All and any of these phenomena point away from the Fairy Tale versions, yet you state the premise is "patently false". Furthermore, the "powderizing" spire collapse clearly points to some type of advanced technology, unknown to most physicists, and therefore unknown to Bin Laden. The likeliest candidate for such a technology is DOD. Or do you have a better candidate? If you do, please have them contact DOD, because I'm sure they'd like to have an anti-missile defense that can turn steel columns into powder in the space of 3 seconds.
Perhaps you forgot the contents of this thread, already?
IMO, you should preface such pope-ish statements with "in my Fairy Tale religion, .... "
http://arch.designcommunity.com/topic-1790-0-asc-0.html
Tenenbaum blames the failure on the "weak" floor struss construction, which he says is suitable for warehouses, not highrise buildings.
It seems none of these architects/designers have any issues as to the gravity driven collapse of the buildings, but they do take issue with the design, and Tenenbaum specifically accuses FEMA of covering this up.
I did find these two parts particularly interesting (page 3 of the thread):
QUOTE
FEMA actually provided the right explanation of cause of the WTC collapse in its Study’s Appendix B on pp. B7-B8 quoted below. It is a masterpiece of deception, because the explanation is quite unnoticeable (especially without missing words added by myself in the brackets), while the front conclusion - criticized in the article above - is obviously unreasonable even for a child. So - on one hand - FEMA sneaked the right explanation (nobody wants to see officially, and only a few can understand, but FEMA cannot be blamed for incompetence), which directly points at faulty design, because 56 or 103 min. fire should not have disjointed external columns nor caused their buckling. On the other hand - the FEMA’s unreasonable front explanation does not blame the structural designer for providing the unacceptable design nor the Port Authority of NY & NJ for approving such the design and issuing Building Permits to construct the faulty WTC towers, so frontally FEMA does NOT blame anyone at home for the WTC tower collapse.
Arthur
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| FEMA actually provided the right explanation of cause of the WTC collapse in its Study’s Appendix B on pp. B7-B8 quoted below. It is a masterpiece of deception, because the explanation is quite unnoticeable (especially without missing words added by myself in the brackets), while the front conclusion - criticized in the article above - is obviously unreasonable even for a child. So - on one hand - FEMA sneaked the right explanation (nobody wants to see officially, and only a few can understand, but FEMA cannot be blamed for incompetence), which directly points at faulty design, because 56 or 103 min. fire should not have disjointed external columns nor caused their buckling. On the other hand - the FEMA’s unreasonable front explanation does not blame the structural designer for providing the unacceptable design nor the Port Authority of NY & NJ for approving such the design and issuing Building Permits to construct the faulty WTC towers, so frontally FEMA does NOT blame anyone at home for the WTC tower collapse. As the columns lose lateral support [because fire causes column-floor connections to break off] and deform out-of-plane [or buckle] from overloading eccentricities [or shift off center of load, because by loosing one floor connection a column doubles its unsupported height quadrupling its whippness resulting in bending by the same load pressing more supple column now much easier to bend being less stiff after loosing one floor connection] and from the thermal effects [of the floor heated by fire, and not the fire itself, because the external columns had been cooled by the outside chilly air from three of their four sides], the bending moment acting on the column splice [end plate connection] does not introduce significant forces into the bolted end plate connection until the eccentricity exceeds 2 inches. As the eccentricity increases [from the thermal effects, and along progressing buckling], the applied bending moment [stress deriving from buckling] will exceed the bolt preload [or pulling] stress when the eccentricity reaches approximately 4 inches. Continued deformation will exceed the ultimate moment capacity [or strength] of the connection and result in instability [or break, failure] as the eccentricity approaches 4.5 inches. It also should be noted that the column splices were staggered mid-height at each floor, as was illustrated in Chapter 2. As a result, two-thirds of the perimeter columns were continuous at each floor's mid-height elevation. This resulted in staggered failure patterns, as the bolted end plate connections and spandrel beam connections failed during the resulting instability and collapse. _________________ Eugene Tenenbaum |
QUOTE
WTC 2 collapsed twice as fast as WTC 1 not because of a greater structural damage – as FEMA claimed – but because of thermal effects of floor heated by fire causing structural disintegration and progressive, destructive (non-elastic) wobbling of the towers’ parts above the impacts.
Wobbling of the WTC 2 part above the impact - twice as high as in WTC 1 (WTC 2 was hit twice as low from the roof as WTC 1) - required a half of amplitude (angle) to shift roof sideways by the same distance (overloading eccentricity), and to break it.
It actually is visible on a PowerPoint slide show made of every 12th frame of 368 frames (12.3 sec. at 30 frames/sec) of the collapse starting at 35:05 of the “WORLD TRADE CENTER Anatomy of Collapse” (by TLC and available on DVD) extracted using PowerDVD.
_________________
Eugene Tenenbaum
Wobbling of the WTC 2 part above the impact - twice as high as in WTC 1 (WTC 2 was hit twice as low from the roof as WTC 1) - required a half of amplitude (angle) to shift roof sideways by the same distance (overloading eccentricity), and to break it.
It actually is visible on a PowerPoint slide show made of every 12th frame of 368 frames (12.3 sec. at 30 frames/sec) of the collapse starting at 35:05 of the “WORLD TRADE CENTER Anatomy of Collapse” (by TLC and available on DVD) extracted using PowerDVD.
_________________
Eugene Tenenbaum
Arthur
QUOTE (Guest_Steve+Dec 27 2005, 06:51 AM)
Now how are you bush fairy tale believers going to get around that one? You'll probably say Larry was a fake and not a real person, but sadly enough his authenticity can be verified.
The fairy tale believers got around this one a long, long time ago by telling us what Mr. Silverstein really meant, which is that the word 'pull' means to 'pull' the firefighters out of the building.
Of course, what Mr. Silverstein really meant by this statement could be easily ascertained simply by asking the man what he meant, under oath. But alas, as with so many other blatant problems with the official fairy tale, the people who could provide answers to key questions have not -- and unless 'we, the people' demand it, will not -- be questioned under oath (or how about using 'extraordinary rendition').
But I don't think this will ever happen. Just look at the discussion on this thread: we are on page 136, smart people know that the official story is BS (including those in here who defend it), and yet we (myself included) will continue to be caught up in this endless game of 'he said, she said'. There are countless other web sites that put the lie to the official story from different angles, and yet those truly responsible for 9/11 continue to walk free and wealthy. And 9/11 itself is only one in a truly mind-numbing list of 'crimes against humanity' perpetrated by 'whoever'. I believe their ultimate goal is the complete re-ordering of the world's economic system, and based on the endless, and useless dialog seen on web sites like this and others (again, I admit guilt myself), they will achieve their goal.
Gotta go take my daily dose of Soma...take care.
The fairy tale believers got around this one a long, long time ago by telling us what Mr. Silverstein really meant, which is that the word 'pull' means to 'pull' the firefighters out of the building.
Of course, what Mr. Silverstein really meant by this statement could be easily ascertained simply by asking the man what he meant, under oath. But alas, as with so many other blatant problems with the official fairy tale, the people who could provide answers to key questions have not -- and unless 'we, the people' demand it, will not -- be questioned under oath (or how about using 'extraordinary rendition').
But I don't think this will ever happen. Just look at the discussion on this thread: we are on page 136, smart people know that the official story is BS (including those in here who defend it), and yet we (myself included) will continue to be caught up in this endless game of 'he said, she said'. There are countless other web sites that put the lie to the official story from different angles, and yet those truly responsible for 9/11 continue to walk free and wealthy. And 9/11 itself is only one in a truly mind-numbing list of 'crimes against humanity' perpetrated by 'whoever'. I believe their ultimate goal is the complete re-ordering of the world's economic system, and based on the endless, and useless dialog seen on web sites like this and others (again, I admit guilt myself), they will achieve their goal.
Gotta go take my daily dose of Soma...take care.
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 27 2005, 04:32 PM)
Interesting read on WTC at DesignCommunity.com
http://arch.designcommunity.com/topic-1790-0-asc-0.html
Tenenbaum blames the failure on the "weak" floor struss construction, which he says is suitable for warehouses, not highrise buildings.
See what I mean, Guest_Steve. Here we have yet another pile of drivel that attempts to explain away the obvious controlled demolition by some other means. We now have a 'new theory' to discuss, put forth well over a year ago by someone named 'tenenbaum' (possibly one of the 'Royals'?). This person, using crappy english, tells us that it was 'faulty design' that brought down the towers (and I'm sure he/she's right...the designers didn't account for explosives in their design). It's exactly this kind of nonsense...
As the columns lose lateral support [because fire causes column-floor connections to break off] and deform out-of-plane [or buckle] from overloading eccentricities [or shift off center of load, because by loosing one floor connection a column doubles its unsupported height quadrupling its whippness resulting in bending by the same load pressing more supple column now much easier to bend being less stiff after loosing one floor connection] and from the thermal effects [of the floor heated by fire, and not the fire itself, because the external columns had been cooled by the outside chilly air from three of their four sides], the bending moment acting on the column splice [end plate connection] does not introduce significant forces into the bolted end plate connection until the eccentricity exceeds 2 inches. As the eccentricity increases [from the thermal effects, and along progressing buckling], the applied bending moment [stress deriving from buckling] will exceed the bolt preload [or pulling] stress when the eccentricity reaches approximately 4 inches. Continued deformation will exceed the ultimate moment capacity [or strength] of the connection and result in instability [or break, failure] as the eccentricity approaches 4.5 inches. It also should be noted that the column splices were staggered mid-height at each floor, as was illustrated in Chapter 2. As a result, two-thirds of the perimeter columns were continuous at each floor's mid-height elevation. This resulted in staggered failure patterns, as the bolted end plate connections and spandrel beam connections failed during the resulting instability and collapse.
...that will keep this discussion going forever.
So, round, round we go. We will now spend another 136 pages discussing the lunacy of this person's 'weak warehouse floor truss' theory. Remember that the people who support the official story don't feel the same sense of urgency over this issue that you and I and the rest of the 'good' people in the world do. They know the official story is a lie (they are here to sell it), and they have all the time in the world to come up with new and exciting ways to confuse the issue...this is just one more example.
SO, WHEN ARE WE GOING TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE BIGGEST LIE EVER TOLD? You tell me.
http://arch.designcommunity.com/topic-1790-0-asc-0.html
Tenenbaum blames the failure on the "weak" floor struss construction, which he says is suitable for warehouses, not highrise buildings.
See what I mean, Guest_Steve. Here we have yet another pile of drivel that attempts to explain away the obvious controlled demolition by some other means. We now have a 'new theory' to discuss, put forth well over a year ago by someone named 'tenenbaum' (possibly one of the 'Royals'?). This person, using crappy english, tells us that it was 'faulty design' that brought down the towers (and I'm sure he/she's right...the designers didn't account for explosives in their design). It's exactly this kind of nonsense...
QUOTE
As the columns lose lateral support [because fire causes column-floor connections to break off] and deform out-of-plane [or buckle] from overloading eccentricities [or shift off center of load, because by loosing one floor connection a column doubles its unsupported height quadrupling its whippness resulting in bending by the same load pressing more supple column now much easier to bend being less stiff after loosing one floor connection] and from the thermal effects [of the floor heated by fire, and not the fire itself, because the external columns had been cooled by the outside chilly air from three of their four sides], the bending moment acting on the column splice [end plate connection] does not introduce significant forces into the bolted end plate connection until the eccentricity exceeds 2 inches. As the eccentricity increases [from the thermal effects, and along progressing buckling], the applied bending moment [stress deriving from buckling] will exceed the bolt preload [or pulling] stress when the eccentricity reaches approximately 4 inches. Continued deformation will exceed the ultimate moment capacity [or strength] of the connection and result in instability [or break, failure] as the eccentricity approaches 4.5 inches. It also should be noted that the column splices were staggered mid-height at each floor, as was illustrated in Chapter 2. As a result, two-thirds of the perimeter columns were continuous at each floor's mid-height elevation. This resulted in staggered failure patterns, as the bolted end plate connections and spandrel beam connections failed during the resulting instability and collapse.
...that will keep this discussion going forever.
So, round, round we go. We will now spend another 136 pages discussing the lunacy of this person's 'weak warehouse floor truss' theory. Remember that the people who support the official story don't feel the same sense of urgency over this issue that you and I and the rest of the 'good' people in the world do. They know the official story is a lie (they are here to sell it), and they have all the time in the world to come up with new and exciting ways to confuse the issue...this is just one more example.
SO, WHEN ARE WE GOING TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE BIGGEST LIE EVER TOLD? You tell me.
QUOTE (Mel+)
Of course, what Mr. Silverstein really meant by this statement could be easily ascertained simply by asking the man what he meant, under oath.
DA: Now Mr. Silverstein, would you please tell the court what you meant by "pull it"?
Silverstein: I meant that we shouldn't risk any more human lives and we should pull the firefighting efforts.
DA: Oh come on Mr. Silverstein, EVERYBODY KNOWS that "Pull it" is the phrase the Controlled Demolitionists use when they are discussing a CD. Do you mean to tell us that you just HAPPENED to use the same phrase just before the WTC 7 building collapsed?
Silverstein: Yes
DA: Mr Silverstein, do you think we are that STUPID?
Silverstein: Apparently so.
Arthur
DA: Now Mr. Silverstein, would you please tell the court what you meant by "pull it"?
Silverstein: I meant that we shouldn't risk any more human lives and we should pull the firefighting efforts.
DA: Oh come on Mr. Silverstein, EVERYBODY KNOWS that "Pull it" is the phrase the Controlled Demolitionists use when they are discussing a CD. Do you mean to tell us that you just HAPPENED to use the same phrase just before the WTC 7 building collapsed?
Silverstein: Yes
DA: Mr Silverstein, do you think we are that STUPID?
Silverstein: Apparently so.
Arthur
Mel,
There is no doubt in my mind that most people (with half a brain or more) no our government did 9/11, because IT WAS PHYISICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for it to have happened any other way.
And your correct, we're really way past the proof stage, as the evidence is more conclusive than the OJ Simpson case.
But you might say the average american citizen is like the OJ jury who voted the WRONG WAY. Maybe it's because they were ignorant racists, trying to get even or maybe it was because they were threatened and bribed, but like the OJ case the evidence is overwealming and conclusive, "Our government did 9/11" and they're blaming the crime on someone else.
Mark Furman probably wasn't a perfect guy, who knows maybe he was racist at times, but he didn't do the crime, and likewise we have Bin Laden, who probably has his share of past sins, but he did not do this crime.
Just like it was physically impossible for Mark Furman to do the crime OJ did, it was impossible for a man in a cave "Bin Laden" to have pulled off 9/11.
The question is will justice ever be done and the real criminals brought to justice, and that is something I just don't know, but maybe if enough people talk about, just possibly something will get done.
The idiots who support the Bush BS story will eventually fade away with shame and contempt for themselves for going along with these crimes, much like the OJ jury, but for now they'll have to continue to lie in your face, throw out smoke screens and confusion in order to justify their anti-human, anti-american activities of supporting and endorcing some of the worse criminals of the century.
There is no doubt in my mind that most people (with half a brain or more) no our government did 9/11, because IT WAS PHYISICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for it to have happened any other way.
And your correct, we're really way past the proof stage, as the evidence is more conclusive than the OJ Simpson case.
But you might say the average american citizen is like the OJ jury who voted the WRONG WAY. Maybe it's because they were ignorant racists, trying to get even or maybe it was because they were threatened and bribed, but like the OJ case the evidence is overwealming and conclusive, "Our government did 9/11" and they're blaming the crime on someone else.
Mark Furman probably wasn't a perfect guy, who knows maybe he was racist at times, but he didn't do the crime, and likewise we have Bin Laden, who probably has his share of past sins, but he did not do this crime.
Just like it was physically impossible for Mark Furman to do the crime OJ did, it was impossible for a man in a cave "Bin Laden" to have pulled off 9/11.
The question is will justice ever be done and the real criminals brought to justice, and that is something I just don't know, but maybe if enough people talk about, just possibly something will get done.
The idiots who support the Bush BS story will eventually fade away with shame and contempt for themselves for going along with these crimes, much like the OJ jury, but for now they'll have to continue to lie in your face, throw out smoke screens and confusion in order to justify their anti-human, anti-american activities of supporting and endorcing some of the worse criminals of the century.
QUOTE (Mel+)
SO, WHEN ARE WE GOING TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE BIGGEST LIE EVER TOLD?
Well, you could start with producing some actual PROOF.
So far, none has been posted on this site.
Steve1957 makes the brilliant deduction, that the GOVT had to have done it, because it was physically impossible any other way.
In the first place, this is not a logical deduduction, and more importantly, the second statement, which the premise is built upon, is patently false.
To borrow a phrase, Physics and Reality are not constrained by your intelligence.
Arthur
Well, you could start with producing some actual PROOF.
So far, none has been posted on this site.
Steve1957 makes the brilliant deduction, that the GOVT had to have done it, because it was physically impossible any other way.
In the first place, this is not a logical deduduction, and more importantly, the second statement, which the premise is built upon, is patently false.
To borrow a phrase, Physics and Reality are not constrained by your intelligence.
Arthur
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 27 2005, 06:38 PM)
Well, you could start with producing some actual PROOF.
So far, none has been posted on this site.
From dictionary.reference.com:
Intelligent people who read the last 137 pages will accept the 'evidence' for controlled demolition as given, however, this post by you simply gives weight to my previous post's contention that we are deliberately made to go round and round. Where's the proof, you ask? Well, now we have to start the entire thread all over again, and keep this merry-go-round operating.
As I said, WHEN ARE WE GOING TO STOP TALKING, AND START ACTING?. Likely never, so you really don't need to be here, do you?
1. Could you point me to the 'proof' that OBL and his minions did it?
2. Where do you stand on the OJ verdict?
3. Will you go public with your views if I can set up an on-line interview?
So far, none has been posted on this site.
From dictionary.reference.com:
QUOTE
proof
n.
1. The evidence or argument that compels the mind to accept an assertion as true.
2.
1. The validation of a proposition by application of specified rules, as of induction or deduction, to assumptions, axioms, and sequentially derived conclusions.
2. A statement or argument used in such a validation.
3.
1. Convincing or persuasive demonstration: was asked for proof of his identity; an employment history that was proof of her dependability.
2. The state of being convinced or persuaded by consideration of evidence.
4. Determination of the quality of something by testing; trial: put one's beliefs to the proof.
...
n.
1. The evidence or argument that compels the mind to accept an assertion as true.
2.
1. The validation of a proposition by application of specified rules, as of induction or deduction, to assumptions, axioms, and sequentially derived conclusions.
2. A statement or argument used in such a validation.
3.
1. Convincing or persuasive demonstration: was asked for proof of his identity; an employment history that was proof of her dependability.
2. The state of being convinced or persuaded by consideration of evidence.
4. Determination of the quality of something by testing; trial: put one's beliefs to the proof.
...
Intelligent people who read the last 137 pages will accept the 'evidence' for controlled demolition as given, however, this post by you simply gives weight to my previous post's contention that we are deliberately made to go round and round. Where's the proof, you ask? Well, now we have to start the entire thread all over again, and keep this merry-go-round operating.
As I said, WHEN ARE WE GOING TO STOP TALKING, AND START ACTING?. Likely never, so you really don't need to be here, do you?
1. Could you point me to the 'proof' that OBL and his minions did it?
2. Where do you stand on the OJ verdict?
3. Will you go public with your views if I can set up an on-line interview?
QUOTE
In the first place, this is not a logical deduduction,
It may not be logical on it's face, but it's eminently logical when you consider all the tons of background (non-physics) evidence. Even the physics evidence is compelling, in that it alone debunks the government's Fairy Tale versions of collapse of WTC 1,2 & 7. (even considering that definitive computer modeling was not done).
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| In the first place, this is not a logical deduduction, |
It may not be logical on it's face, but it's eminently logical when you consider all the tons of background (non-physics) evidence. Even the physics evidence is compelling, in that it alone debunks the government's Fairy Tale versions of collapse of WTC 1,2 & 7. (even considering that definitive computer modeling was not done).
and more importantly, the second statement, which the premise is built upon, is patently false.
Wrong. Nobody yet has convincingly explained all the characteristics of the collapses (including symmetry, speed, horizontal ejection of essentially straight metal pieces, sublimation or powderization of chunks of building that fell outside WTC 1&2 footprints, lack of any identifiable objects in ejecta (except for the straight metal pieces, which were NOT sublimating), extraordinary and persistent hot metal at ground zero) using a conventional physics approach consistent with the government Fairy Tales.
Then, of course, there's the weird, telescoping, powderizing collapse of the spire, which is explained by neither a gravity driven US Government Fairy Tale "explanation", nor by an explosives hypothesis.
All and any of these phenomena point away from the Fairy Tale versions, yet you state the premise is "patently false". Furthermore, the "powderizing" spire collapse clearly points to some type of advanced technology, unknown to most physicists, and therefore unknown to Bin Laden. The likeliest candidate for such a technology is DOD. Or do you have a better candidate? If you do, please have them contact DOD, because I'm sure they'd like to have an anti-missile defense that can turn steel columns into powder in the space of 3 seconds.
Perhaps you forgot the contents of this thread, already?
IMO, you should preface such pope-ish statements with "in my Fairy Tale religion, .... "
QUOTE (metamars+)
If you do, please have them contact DOD, because I'm sure they'd like to have an anti-missile defense that can turn steel columns into powder in the space of 3 seconds.
So on one hand they have it and then on the other hand they would like to have it.
Which is it?
Arthur
So on one hand they have it and then on the other hand they would like to have it.
Which is it?
Arthur
QUOTE (Mel+Dec 27 2005, 07:28 PM)
1. Could you point me to the 'proof' that OBL and his minions did it?
At the age of 24, Mohamed Atta, the suspected ringleader of the Sept. 11 plot, travels to Hamburg, Germany, and enrolls at a technical university to do graduate study in urban planning.
1996
Atta begins attending Al Quds mosque, where young men from many Arab countries congregate. Investigators believe Al Quds mosque is where Atta was radicalized, either through meeting extremists or by direct recruitment by an agent of bin Laden. Atta met two other young Arabs at Al Quds who would become members of the Hamburg terror cell and, later, the suicide pilots on Sept. 11 -- Ziad Jarrah and Marwan al-Shehhi.
1996-1999
In April 1996, Ziad Jarrah leaves Lebanon for Greifswald, Germany, where he studies German for two semesters before qualifying to take other university courses. After a year in Griefswald, Jarrah continues his studies at the University of Applied Science in Hamburg, where he stays until 1999.
In Hamburg, Jarrah begins a college course in aircraft engineering. After a few months, his landlord, Rosemary Canel, notices small changes that suggest a new commitment to Islam. According to Canel, he grows a beard and keeps a small prayer mat in his room. He also starts spending time at the Al Quds mosque with al-Shehhi and Atta.
1997-1999
Marwan al-Shehhi comes to Germany from the United Arab Emirates (U.A.E.) in 1997. During this time, he studies German at the University of Bonn. According to press reports, al-Shehhi moved to Hamburg sometime in 1999, where he enrolls at the Technical University.
summer 1997
Atta disappears from his university for over a year, giving only a vague explanation for his absence. Western intelligence has established that Atta traveled to Afghanistan, to the camps of Al Qaeda. He is followed by al-Shehhi and Jarrah.
While Atta is in the camps, Osama bin Laden makes his most menacing threat against the United States. He declares all Americans to be legitimate targets of terror. Atta also is in the camps when bin Laden's men bomb two U.S. embassies in East Africa, killing 224 civilians, including 12 Americans.
oct. 1998
Atta reappears at his university in Hamburg. Observers say he looks more serious, works hard, and doesn't smile as much as before. By now, he has become an operational commander for bin Laden, and is preparing a big attack. Following the blueprint set out in Al Qaeda's manual, he forms a terror cell. He finds an apartment, No. 54 Marienstrasse, that serves as a base for the cell. The apartment becomes the meeting place for at least six Arab students, including al-Shehhi and Jarrah.
late 1999
Atta, al-Shehhi, and Jarrah all report their passports stolen. The old ones bore the evidence that they had all been to bin Laden's camps. They apply for and receive new passports.
may - june 2000
Al-Shehhi, Atta, and Jarrah arrive separately in the U.S. on tourist visas from Berlin.
Al-Shehhi flies from Europe to Newark, N.J., on May 29, 2000. According to the indictment against Zacarias Moussaoui, an alleged co-conspirator in the Sept. 11 plot, one month after al-Shehhi enters the U.S., $4,790 is wired to him from the U.A.E.
Jarrah arrives in Atlanta, Ga., on a June 27 flight from Munich, Germany.
Atta arrives in Newark on or about June 3, on a tourist visa he had received in Berlin on May 18. Investigators say that Atta, instead of traveling directly to the U.S., traveled to Prague in the Czech Republic, where he stayed for a day before traveling to Newark.
The trio quickly make their way to Florida to learn how to fly. Atta and al-Shehhi enroll at Huffman Aviation.
july - dec. 2000
Atta and al-Shehhi receive flight training at Huffman Aviation in Venice, Fla., where they pay $38,000 for lessons. According to the indictment against Moussaoui, from July 19 to September 18, $109,440 is transferred from the U.A.E. to a Florida SunTrust bank account under the names of Atta and al-Shehhi. (The FBI says Atta and al-Shehhi eventually were sent more than $100,000 each -- most of the money coming from Dubai, in the U.A.E., one of the world's busiest and most anonymous banking centers.)
fall 2000
Jarrah begins attending the Florida Flight Training Center in Venice, Fla.
He also tries to enroll another member of the Hamburg cell, Ramzi bin al-Shibh, in flight school. At the time, bin al-Shibh is still living in the Marienstrasse apartment. Bin al-Shibh is from Yemen, however, which is considered a hotbed of terrorism, so the U.S. denies his visa four times.
nov. - dec. 2000
According to the indictment against Moussaoui, Atta purchases flight-deck videos for Boeing 747 and 757 aircraft in a pilot store in Ohio on or about Nov. 5, 2000. He purchases more videos a little over a month later, this time for Boeing 767 and Airbus A320 aircraft.
dec. 2000
Atta and al-Shehhi visit a jet aircraft simulator in Opa-Locka, Fla. For $1,500, they buy six hours of simulator time. They say they want to join an airline and need to familiarize themselves with an airliner cockpit.
jan. 2001
Jarrah arrives at Dubai Airport in the United Arab Emirates. Under questioning, Jarrah tells local authorities that for two months he has been in Pakistan, and -- they presumed -- in Afghanistan, in bin Laden's camps. Jarrah said he was a pilot, headed back to the United States. He had a valid U.S. visa, so Dubai let him go.
In the months leading up to the attack, Atta makes several trips to Europe. U.S. intelligence believes he was mainly making contacts with the Al Qaeda network.
Atta flies from Miami to Madrid in January 2001 and returns to the U.S. six days later. It is not clear whom he meets, but Spanish police have recently rounded up a major Al Qaeda cell, which has direct links to Atta's Hamburg group.
When he returns to Miami, an alert immigration officer notices that Atta's tourist visa has expired, and that he has violated its terms by taking flight lessons. Atta is held for questioning. Finally, he is granted an eight-month extension.
That same month, the CIA learns that Khalid al-Midhar, who would eventually be identified as one of the hijackers aboard American Airlines Flight 77, which crashed into the Pentagon, was involved in planning the bombing of the USS Cole. His name isn't put on an immigration watchlist until the end of August, after he is already in the United States.
april 2001
Atta travels to Prague, in the Czech Republic, where he was observed in a still unexplained meeting with an Iraqi intelligence agent.
spring 2001
Atta and his lieutenants move to the towns north of Miami. The second wave of the hijack team -- the "foot soldiers" -- begins to arrive from Saudi Arabia. They are conservative young Muslims who speak little English.
Jarrah and Atta are both issued Florida driver's licenses on May 2, 2001.
july 4, 2001
Two Saudi members of the hijacking team fly to Newark, N.J., from abroad. They join the other Saudis who are renting an apartment above a convenience store in Patterson, N.J.
july 2001
Atta travels to Spain. Twelve days later, he returns to the U.S. via Atlanta's Hartsfield International Airport.
Also according to the Moussaoui indictment, Jarrah travels from the U.S. to Germany on July 25 and returns on Aug. 4, 2001.
aug. 2001
According to the indictment against Moussaoui, Jarrah takes a "check ride" at a flight school in Ft. Lauderdale, Fla., on Aug. 17. Five days later, he purchases an antenna for a global-positioning system (GPS), and schematics for Boeing 757 cockpit-instrument diagrams.
aug. 26 - sept. 9, 2001
Al-Shehhi resides at the Panther Motel in Deerfield Beach, Fla. When he checks out, investigators now know, he was on his way to board United Airlines Flight 175, bound from Boston's Logan Airport to Los Angeles.
aug. 2001
Moussaoui, a French Moroccan student, is jailed in Minnesota. He arouses suspicion as an inexperienced pilot seeking advanced jet simulator training for a 747 airliner. The flight school alerts the FBI, noting that a fully fueled 747 could be used as a bomb. The FBI now believes that Moussaoui was tapped to take bin al-Shibh's place as the 20th hijacker.
days before the attack
The three remaining members of Atta's Hamburg terrorist cell -- Said Bahaji, Ramzi bin al-Shibh, and Zakariya Essabar -- flee Germany, headed for Afghanistan.
sept. 9, 2001
At Boston's Logan Airport, Atta watches and takes notes as American Airlines Flight 11 prepares for departure.
sept. 10, 2001
In the United Arab Emirates, a man named Mustafa Ahmed al Hawsawi collects cash sent back from the hijackers in America: $5,000 dollars each from Mohamed Atta and two other hijackers. According to Al Qaeda's rules, the hijackers must return any unused funds in order to finance future missions.
Atta and a young Saudi hijacker drive to Portland, Maine, where they check into the Comfort Inn. Various security cameras capture their images as they spend their final hours wandering around Portland.
Add this to the videos of them going through security and the calls from the flight attendents on board the planes and finally to OBL's admitting it on tape.
I guess none of this is proof, right?
Arthur
At the age of 24, Mohamed Atta, the suspected ringleader of the Sept. 11 plot, travels to Hamburg, Germany, and enrolls at a technical university to do graduate study in urban planning.
1996
Atta begins attending Al Quds mosque, where young men from many Arab countries congregate. Investigators believe Al Quds mosque is where Atta was radicalized, either through meeting extremists or by direct recruitment by an agent of bin Laden. Atta met two other young Arabs at Al Quds who would become members of the Hamburg terror cell and, later, the suicide pilots on Sept. 11 -- Ziad Jarrah and Marwan al-Shehhi.
1996-1999
In April 1996, Ziad Jarrah leaves Lebanon for Greifswald, Germany, where he studies German for two semesters before qualifying to take other university courses. After a year in Griefswald, Jarrah continues his studies at the University of Applied Science in Hamburg, where he stays until 1999.
In Hamburg, Jarrah begins a college course in aircraft engineering. After a few months, his landlord, Rosemary Canel, notices small changes that suggest a new commitment to Islam. According to Canel, he grows a beard and keeps a small prayer mat in his room. He also starts spending time at the Al Quds mosque with al-Shehhi and Atta.
1997-1999
Marwan al-Shehhi comes to Germany from the United Arab Emirates (U.A.E.) in 1997. During this time, he studies German at the University of Bonn. According to press reports, al-Shehhi moved to Hamburg sometime in 1999, where he enrolls at the Technical University.
summer 1997
Atta disappears from his university for over a year, giving only a vague explanation for his absence. Western intelligence has established that Atta traveled to Afghanistan, to the camps of Al Qaeda. He is followed by al-Shehhi and Jarrah.
While Atta is in the camps, Osama bin Laden makes his most menacing threat against the United States. He declares all Americans to be legitimate targets of terror. Atta also is in the camps when bin Laden's men bomb two U.S. embassies in East Africa, killing 224 civilians, including 12 Americans.
oct. 1998
Atta reappears at his university in Hamburg. Observers say he looks more serious, works hard, and doesn't smile as much as before. By now, he has become an operational commander for bin Laden, and is preparing a big attack. Following the blueprint set out in Al Qaeda's manual, he forms a terror cell. He finds an apartment, No. 54 Marienstrasse, that serves as a base for the cell. The apartment becomes the meeting place for at least six Arab students, including al-Shehhi and Jarrah.
late 1999
Atta, al-Shehhi, and Jarrah all report their passports stolen. The old ones bore the evidence that they had all been to bin Laden's camps. They apply for and receive new passports.
may - june 2000
Al-Shehhi, Atta, and Jarrah arrive separately in the U.S. on tourist visas from Berlin.
Al-Shehhi flies from Europe to Newark, N.J., on May 29, 2000. According to the indictment against Zacarias Moussaoui, an alleged co-conspirator in the Sept. 11 plot, one month after al-Shehhi enters the U.S., $4,790 is wired to him from the U.A.E.
Jarrah arrives in Atlanta, Ga., on a June 27 flight from Munich, Germany.
Atta arrives in Newark on or about June 3, on a tourist visa he had received in Berlin on May 18. Investigators say that Atta, instead of traveling directly to the U.S., traveled to Prague in the Czech Republic, where he stayed for a day before traveling to Newark.
The trio quickly make their way to Florida to learn how to fly. Atta and al-Shehhi enroll at Huffman Aviation.
july - dec. 2000
Atta and al-Shehhi receive flight training at Huffman Aviation in Venice, Fla., where they pay $38,000 for lessons. According to the indictment against Moussaoui, from July 19 to September 18, $109,440 is transferred from the U.A.E. to a Florida SunTrust bank account under the names of Atta and al-Shehhi. (The FBI says Atta and al-Shehhi eventually were sent more than $100,000 each -- most of the money coming from Dubai, in the U.A.E., one of the world's busiest and most anonymous banking centers.)
fall 2000
Jarrah begins attending the Florida Flight Training Center in Venice, Fla.
He also tries to enroll another member of the Hamburg cell, Ramzi bin al-Shibh, in flight school. At the time, bin al-Shibh is still living in the Marienstrasse apartment. Bin al-Shibh is from Yemen, however, which is considered a hotbed of terrorism, so the U.S. denies his visa four times.
nov. - dec. 2000
According to the indictment against Moussaoui, Atta purchases flight-deck videos for Boeing 747 and 757 aircraft in a pilot store in Ohio on or about Nov. 5, 2000. He purchases more videos a little over a month later, this time for Boeing 767 and Airbus A320 aircraft.
dec. 2000
Atta and al-Shehhi visit a jet aircraft simulator in Opa-Locka, Fla. For $1,500, they buy six hours of simulator time. They say they want to join an airline and need to familiarize themselves with an airliner cockpit.
jan. 2001
Jarrah arrives at Dubai Airport in the United Arab Emirates. Under questioning, Jarrah tells local authorities that for two months he has been in Pakistan, and -- they presumed -- in Afghanistan, in bin Laden's camps. Jarrah said he was a pilot, headed back to the United States. He had a valid U.S. visa, so Dubai let him go.
In the months leading up to the attack, Atta makes several trips to Europe. U.S. intelligence believes he was mainly making contacts with the Al Qaeda network.
Atta flies from Miami to Madrid in January 2001 and returns to the U.S. six days later. It is not clear whom he meets, but Spanish police have recently rounded up a major Al Qaeda cell, which has direct links to Atta's Hamburg group.
When he returns to Miami, an alert immigration officer notices that Atta's tourist visa has expired, and that he has violated its terms by taking flight lessons. Atta is held for questioning. Finally, he is granted an eight-month extension.
That same month, the CIA learns that Khalid al-Midhar, who would eventually be identified as one of the hijackers aboard American Airlines Flight 77, which crashed into the Pentagon, was involved in planning the bombing of the USS Cole. His name isn't put on an immigration watchlist until the end of August, after he is already in the United States.
april 2001
Atta travels to Prague, in the Czech Republic, where he was observed in a still unexplained meeting with an Iraqi intelligence agent.
spring 2001
Atta and his lieutenants move to the towns north of Miami. The second wave of the hijack team -- the "foot soldiers" -- begins to arrive from Saudi Arabia. They are conservative young Muslims who speak little English.
Jarrah and Atta are both issued Florida driver's licenses on May 2, 2001.
july 4, 2001
Two Saudi members of the hijacking team fly to Newark, N.J., from abroad. They join the other Saudis who are renting an apartment above a convenience store in Patterson, N.J.
july 2001
Atta travels to Spain. Twelve days later, he returns to the U.S. via Atlanta's Hartsfield International Airport.
Also according to the Moussaoui indictment, Jarrah travels from the U.S. to Germany on July 25 and returns on Aug. 4, 2001.
aug. 2001
According to the indictment against Moussaoui, Jarrah takes a "check ride" at a flight school in Ft. Lauderdale, Fla., on Aug. 17. Five days later, he purchases an antenna for a global-positioning system (GPS), and schematics for Boeing 757 cockpit-instrument diagrams.
aug. 26 - sept. 9, 2001
Al-Shehhi resides at the Panther Motel in Deerfield Beach, Fla. When he checks out, investigators now know, he was on his way to board United Airlines Flight 175, bound from Boston's Logan Airport to Los Angeles.
aug. 2001
Moussaoui, a French Moroccan student, is jailed in Minnesota. He arouses suspicion as an inexperienced pilot seeking advanced jet simulator training for a 747 airliner. The flight school alerts the FBI, noting that a fully fueled 747 could be used as a bomb. The FBI now believes that Moussaoui was tapped to take bin al-Shibh's place as the 20th hijacker.
days before the attack
The three remaining members of Atta's Hamburg terrorist cell -- Said Bahaji, Ramzi bin al-Shibh, and Zakariya Essabar -- flee Germany, headed for Afghanistan.
sept. 9, 2001
At Boston's Logan Airport, Atta watches and takes notes as American Airlines Flight 11 prepares for departure.
sept. 10, 2001
In the United Arab Emirates, a man named Mustafa Ahmed al Hawsawi collects cash sent back from the hijackers in America: $5,000 dollars each from Mohamed Atta and two other hijackers. According to Al Qaeda's rules, the hijackers must return any unused funds in order to finance future missions.
Atta and a young Saudi hijacker drive to Portland, Maine, where they check into the Comfort Inn. Various security cameras capture their images as they spend their final hours wandering around Portland.
Add this to the videos of them going through security and the calls from the flight attendents on board the planes and finally to OBL's admitting it on tape.
I guess none of this is proof, right?
Arthur
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 27 2005, 06:27 PM)
QUOTE (Mel+)
Of course, what Mr. Silverstein really meant by this statement could be easily ascertained simply by asking the man what he meant, under oath.
DA: Now Mr. Silverstein, would you please tell the court what you meant by "pull it"?
Silverstein: I meant that we shouldn't risk any more human lives and we should pull the firefighting efforts.
DA: Oh come on Mr. Silverstein, EVERYBODY KNOWS that "Pull it" is the phrase the Controlled Demolitionists use when they are discussing a CD. Do you mean to tell us that you just HAPPENED to use the same phrase just before the WTC 7 building collapsed?
Silverstein: Yes
DA: Mr Silverstein, do you think we are that STUPID?
Silverstein: Apparently so.
Arthur
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. Are you saying that all Mr. Silverstein has to do is lie about what he meant? If so, then fair enough.
But to continue along with this court transcript, the DA then needs to bring in the supposed 'fire department commander' Mr. S. was speaking to and ask him what his interpretation of Mr. S.'s remark is, and if he concurs with the remark. Then, the DA needs to bring in, say, 100 signed affidavits from firefighters around the country that state the the term 'pull it' is professional lingo for 'pull fire fighting efforts'. Then the DA needs to bring in the same number of affidavits from CD company employees around the globe that states that the phrase 'pull it' does NOT mean to 'bring the building down' with explosives. Then, we let the jury decide.
Until we do this, the entire conversation is simply more merry-go-round bull-pucky.
DA: Now Mr. Silverstein, would you please tell the court what you meant by "pull it"?
Silverstein: I meant that we shouldn't risk any more human lives and we should pull the firefighting efforts.
DA: Oh come on Mr. Silverstein, EVERYBODY KNOWS that "Pull it" is the phrase the Controlled Demolitionists use when they are discussing a CD. Do you mean to tell us that you just HAPPENED to use the same phrase just before the WTC 7 building collapsed?
Silverstein: Yes
DA: Mr Silverstein, do you think we are that STUPID?
Silverstein: Apparently so.
Arthur
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. Are you saying that all Mr. Silverstein has to do is lie about what he meant? If so, then fair enough.
But to continue along with this court transcript, the DA then needs to bring in the supposed 'fire department commander' Mr. S. was speaking to and ask him what his interpretation of Mr. S.'s remark is, and if he concurs with the remark. Then, the DA needs to bring in, say, 100 signed affidavits from firefighters around the country that state the the term 'pull it' is professional lingo for 'pull fire fighting efforts'. Then the DA needs to bring in the same number of affidavits from CD company employees around the globe that states that the phrase 'pull it' does NOT mean to 'bring the building down' with explosives. Then, we let the jury decide.
Until we do this, the entire conversation is simply more merry-go-round bull-pucky.
QUOTE (Mel+)
2. Where do you stand on the OJ verdict?
In the OJ trial, the prosecution was totally inept. Absolutely horrible handling of evidence, particularly the DNA testing, allowing OJ to "try" to put on the gloves OVER LATEX GLOVES which led to the classic: "If it don't fit you must acquit" and then probably the final straw was when Mark Furman "took the 5th".
I know that wasn't relevant to OJ's guilt, but having talked to a lot of people about it at the time, this action, coupled with his other somewhat dubious actions, led a number of people to think there was a chance that Furman was trying to Frame OJ.
I don't believe that, but it seems it was this kind of "doubt" that helped to generate the verdict.
So I take the jury's verdict as not that OJ was innocent, but that the prosecution did a piss poor job in proving his guilt.
Probably not without knowing how it is set up. Besides, what credibility would I have? But more importantly, the questions raised are not easily handled via a interview format.
Now if you put together a PANEL of people, I'd be glad to join.
Arthur
In the OJ trial, the prosecution was totally inept. Absolutely horrible handling of evidence, particularly the DNA testing, allowing OJ to "try" to put on the gloves OVER LATEX GLOVES which led to the classic: "If it don't fit you must acquit" and then probably the final straw was when Mark Furman "took the 5th".
I know that wasn't relevant to OJ's guilt, but having talked to a lot of people about it at the time, this action, coupled with his other somewhat dubious actions, led a number of people to think there was a chance that Furman was trying to Frame OJ.
I don't believe that, but it seems it was this kind of "doubt" that helped to generate the verdict.
So I take the jury's verdict as not that OJ was innocent, but that the prosecution did a piss poor job in proving his guilt.
QUOTE
3. Will you go public with your views if I can set up an on-line interview
Probably not without knowing how it is set up. Besides, what credibility would I have? But more importantly, the questions raised are not easily handled via a interview format.
Now if you put together a PANEL of people, I'd be glad to join.
Arthur
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 27 2005, 08:28 PM)
QUOTE (Mel+Dec 27 2005, 07:28 PM)
1. Could you point me to the 'proof' that OBL and his minions did it?
At the age of 24, Mohamed Atta, the suspected ringleader of the Sept. 11 plot, travels to Hamburg, Germany, and enrolls at a technical university to do graduate study in urban planning.
1996
Atta begins attending Al Quds mosque, where young men from many Arab countries congregate. Investigators believe Al Quds mosque is where Atta was radicalized, either through meeting extremists or by direct recruitment by an agent of bin Laden. Atta met two other young Arabs at Al Quds who would become members of the Hamburg terror cell and, later, the suicide pilots on Sept. 11 -- Ziad Jarrah and Marwan al-Shehhi.
1996-1999
In April 1996, Ziad Jarrah leaves Lebanon for Greifswald, Germany, where he studies German for two semesters before qualifying to take other university courses. After a year in Griefswald, Jarrah continues his studies at the University of Applied Science in Hamburg, where he stays until 1999.
In Hamburg, Jarrah begins a college course in aircraft engineering. After a few months, his landlord, Rosemary Canel, notices small changes that suggest a new commitment to Islam. According to Canel, he grows a beard and keeps a small prayer mat in his room. He also starts spending time at the Al Quds mosque with al-Shehhi and Atta.
1997-1999
Marwan al-Shehhi comes to Germany from the United Arab Emirates (U.A.E.) in 1997. During this time, he studies German at the University of Bonn. According to press reports, al-Shehhi moved to Hamburg sometime in 1999, where he enrolls at the Technical University.
summer 1997
Atta disappears from his university for over a year, giving only a vague explanation for his absence. Western intelligence has established that Atta traveled to Afghanistan, to the camps of Al Qaeda. He is followed by al-Shehhi and Jarrah.
While Atta is in the camps, Osama bin Laden makes his most menacing threat against the United States. He declares all Americans to be legitimate targets of terror. Atta also is in the camps when bin Laden's men bomb two U.S. embassies in East Africa, killing 224 civilians, including 12 Americans.
oct. 1998
Atta reappears at his university in Hamburg. Observers say he looks more serious, works hard, and doesn't smile as much as before. By now, he has become an operational commander for bin Laden, and is preparing a big attack. Following the blueprint set out in Al Qaeda's manual, he forms a terror cell. He finds an apartment, No. 54 Marienstrasse, that serves as a base for the cell. The apartment becomes the meeting place for at least six Arab students, including al-Shehhi and Jarrah.
late 1999
Atta, al-Shehhi, and Jarrah all report their passports stolen. The old ones bore the evidence that they had all been to bin Laden's camps. They apply for and receive new passports.
may - june 2000
Al-Shehhi, Atta, and Jarrah arrive separately in the U.S. on tourist visas from Berlin.
Al-Shehhi flies from Europe to Newark, N.J., on May 29, 2000. According to the indictment against Zacarias Moussaoui, an alleged co-conspirator in the Sept. 11 plot, one month after al-Shehhi enters the U.S., $4,790 is wired to him from the U.A.E.
Jarrah arrives in Atlanta, Ga., on a June 27 flight from Munich, Germany.
Atta arrives in Newark on or about June 3, on a tourist visa he had received in Berlin on May 18. Investigators say that Atta, instead of traveling directly to the U.S., traveled to Prague in the Czech Republic, where he stayed for a day before traveling to Newark.
The trio quickly make their way to Florida to learn how to fly. Atta and al-Shehhi enroll at Huffman Aviation.
july - dec. 2000
Atta and al-Shehhi receive flight training at Huffman Aviation in Venice, Fla., where they pay $38,000 for lessons. According to the indictment against Moussaoui, from July 19 to September 18, $109,440 is transferred from the U.A.E. to a Florida SunTrust bank account under the names of Atta and al-Shehhi. (The FBI says Atta and al-Shehhi eventually were sent more than $100,000 each -- most of the money coming from Dubai, in the U.A.E., one of the world's busiest and most anonymous banking centers.)
fall 2000
Jarrah begins attending the Florida Flight Training Center in Venice, Fla.
He also tries to enroll another member of the Hamburg cell, Ramzi bin al-Shibh, in flight school. At the time, bin al-Shibh is still living in the Marienstrasse apartment. Bin al-Shibh is from Yemen, however, which is considered a hotbed of terrorism, so the U.S. denies his visa four times.
nov. - dec. 2000
According to the indictment against Moussaoui, Atta purchases flight-deck videos for Boeing 747 and 757 aircraft in a pilot store in Ohio on or about Nov. 5, 2000. He purchases more videos a little over a month later, this time for Boeing 767 and Airbus A320 aircraft.
dec. 2000
Atta and al-Shehhi visit a jet aircraft simulator in Opa-Locka, Fla. For $1,500, they buy six hours of simulator time. They say they want to join an airline and need to familiarize themselves with an airliner cockpit.
jan. 2001
Jarrah arrives at Dubai Airport in the United Arab Emirates. Under questioning, Jarrah tells local authorities that for two months he has been in Pakistan, and -- they presumed -- in Afghanistan, in bin Laden's camps. Jarrah said he was a pilot, headed back to the United States. He had a valid U.S. visa, so Dubai let him go.
In the months leading up to the attack, Atta makes several trips to Europe. U.S. intelligence believes he was mainly making contacts with the Al Qaeda network.
Atta flies from Miami to Madrid in January 2001 and returns to the U.S. six days later. It is not clear whom he meets, but Spanish police have recently rounded up a major Al Qaeda cell, which has direct links to Atta's Hamburg group.
When he returns to Miami, an alert immigration officer notices that Atta's tourist visa has expired, and that he has violated its terms by taking flight lessons. Atta is held for questioning. Finally, he is granted an eight-month extension.
That same month, the CIA learns that Khalid al-Midhar, who would eventually be identified as one of the hijackers aboard American Airlines Flight 77, which crashed into the Pentagon, was involved in planning the bombing of the USS Cole. His name isn't put on an immigration watchlist until the end of August, after he is already in the United States.
april 2001
Atta travels to Prague, in the Czech Republic, where he was observed in a still unexplained meeting with an Iraqi intelligence agent.
spring 2001
Atta and his lieutenants move to the towns north of Miami. The second wave of the hijack team -- the "foot soldiers" -- begins to arrive from Saudi Arabia. They are conservative young Muslims who speak little English.
Jarrah and Atta are both issued Florida driver's licenses on May 2, 2001.
july 4, 2001
Two Saudi members of the hijacking team fly to Newark, N.J., from abroad. They join the other Saudis who are renting an apartment above a convenience store in Patterson, N.J.
july 2001
Atta travels to Spain. Twelve days later, he returns to the U.S. via Atlanta's Hartsfield International Airport.
Also according to the Moussaoui indictment, Jarrah travels from the U.S. to Germany on July 25 and returns on Aug. 4, 2001.
aug. 2001
According to the indictment against Moussaoui, Jarrah takes a "check ride" at a flight school in Ft. Lauderdale, Fla., on Aug. 17. Five days later, he purchases an antenna for a global-positioning system (GPS), and schematics for Boeing 757 cockpit-instrument diagrams.
aug. 26 - sept. 9, 2001
Al-Shehhi resides at the Panther Motel in Deerfield Beach, Fla. When he checks out, investigators now know, he was on his way to board United Airlines Flight 175, bound from Boston's Logan Airport to Los Angeles.
aug. 2001
Moussaoui, a French Moroccan student, is jailed in Minnesota. He arouses suspicion as an inexperienced pilot seeking advanced jet simulator training for a 747 airliner. The flight school alerts the FBI, noting that a fully fueled 747 could be used as a bomb. The FBI now believes that Moussaoui was tapped to take bin al-Shibh's place as the 20th hijacker.
days before the attack
The three remaining members of Atta's Hamburg terrorist cell -- Said Bahaji, Ramzi bin al-Shibh, and Zakariya Essabar -- flee Germany, headed for Afghanistan.
sept. 9, 2001
At Boston's Logan Airport, Atta watches and takes notes as American Airlines Flight 11 prepares for departure.
sept. 10, 2001
In the United Arab Emirates, a man named Mustafa Ahmed al Hawsawi collects cash sent back from the hijackers in America: $5,000 dollars each from Mohamed Atta and two other hijackers. According to Al Qaeda's rules, the hijackers must return any unused funds in order to finance future missions.
Atta and a young Saudi hijacker drive to Portland, Maine, where they check into the Comfort Inn. Various security cameras capture their images as they spend their final hours wandering around Portland.
Add this to the videos of them going through security and the calls from the flight attendents on board the planes and finally to OBL's admitting it on tape.
I guess none of this is proof, right?
Arthur
LOL. I asked for proof, not some 'Tom Clancy novel' hearsay. It's truly amazing how quickly you came up with this story.
Where's the credible source(s) of information for this story? And you have the gall to end this story with 'I guess none of this is proof, right?' Well, you guessed correctly. Absolutely none of that constitutes proof of anything (it was an entertaining read from a fiction POV, though).
You missed questions 2 and 3...here they are again:
2. Where do you stand on the OJ verdict?
3. Will you go public with your 'pancake collapse' views if I can set up an on-line interview?
At the age of 24, Mohamed Atta, the suspected ringleader of the Sept. 11 plot, travels to Hamburg, Germany, and enrolls at a technical university to do graduate study in urban planning.
1996
Atta begins attending Al Quds mosque, where young men from many Arab countries congregate. Investigators believe Al Quds mosque is where Atta was radicalized, either through meeting extremists or by direct recruitment by an agent of bin Laden. Atta met two other young Arabs at Al Quds who would become members of the Hamburg terror cell and, later, the suicide pilots on Sept. 11 -- Ziad Jarrah and Marwan al-Shehhi.
1996-1999
In April 1996, Ziad Jarrah leaves Lebanon for Greifswald, Germany, where he studies German for two semesters before qualifying to take other university courses. After a year in Griefswald, Jarrah continues his studies at the University of Applied Science in Hamburg, where he stays until 1999.
In Hamburg, Jarrah begins a college course in aircraft engineering. After a few months, his landlord, Rosemary Canel, notices small changes that suggest a new commitment to Islam. According to Canel, he grows a beard and keeps a small prayer mat in his room. He also starts spending time at the Al Quds mosque with al-Shehhi and Atta.
1997-1999
Marwan al-Shehhi comes to Germany from the United Arab Emirates (U.A.E.) in 1997. During this time, he studies German at the University of Bonn. According to press reports, al-Shehhi moved to Hamburg sometime in 1999, where he enrolls at the Technical University.
summer 1997
Atta disappears from his university for over a year, giving only a vague explanation for his absence. Western intelligence has established that Atta traveled to Afghanistan, to the camps of Al Qaeda. He is followed by al-Shehhi and Jarrah.
While Atta is in the camps, Osama bin Laden makes his most menacing threat against the United States. He declares all Americans to be legitimate targets of terror. Atta also is in the camps when bin Laden's men bomb two U.S. embassies in East Africa, killing 224 civilians, including 12 Americans.
oct. 1998
Atta reappears at his university in Hamburg. Observers say he looks more serious, works hard, and doesn't smile as much as before. By now, he has become an operational commander for bin Laden, and is preparing a big attack. Following the blueprint set out in Al Qaeda's manual, he forms a terror cell. He finds an apartment, No. 54 Marienstrasse, that serves as a base for the cell. The apartment becomes the meeting place for at least six Arab students, including al-Shehhi and Jarrah.
late 1999
Atta, al-Shehhi, and Jarrah all report their passports stolen. The old ones bore the evidence that they had all been to bin Laden's camps. They apply for and receive new passports.
may - june 2000
Al-Shehhi, Atta, and Jarrah arrive separately in the U.S. on tourist visas from Berlin.
Al-Shehhi flies from Europe to Newark, N.J., on May 29, 2000. According to the indictment against Zacarias Moussaoui, an alleged co-conspirator in the Sept. 11 plot, one month after al-Shehhi enters the U.S., $4,790 is wired to him from the U.A.E.
Jarrah arrives in Atlanta, Ga., on a June 27 flight from Munich, Germany.
Atta arrives in Newark on or about June 3, on a tourist visa he had received in Berlin on May 18. Investigators say that Atta, instead of traveling directly to the U.S., traveled to Prague in the Czech Republic, where he stayed for a day before traveling to Newark.
The trio quickly make their way to Florida to learn how to fly. Atta and al-Shehhi enroll at Huffman Aviation.
july - dec. 2000
Atta and al-Shehhi receive flight training at Huffman Aviation in Venice, Fla., where they pay $38,000 for lessons. According to the indictment against Moussaoui, from July 19 to September 18, $109,440 is transferred from the U.A.E. to a Florida SunTrust bank account under the names of Atta and al-Shehhi. (The FBI says Atta and al-Shehhi eventually were sent more than $100,000 each -- most of the money coming from Dubai, in the U.A.E., one of the world's busiest and most anonymous banking centers.)
fall 2000
Jarrah begins attending the Florida Flight Training Center in Venice, Fla.
He also tries to enroll another member of the Hamburg cell, Ramzi bin al-Shibh, in flight school. At the time, bin al-Shibh is still living in the Marienstrasse apartment. Bin al-Shibh is from Yemen, however, which is considered a hotbed of terrorism, so the U.S. denies his visa four times.
nov. - dec. 2000
According to the indictment against Moussaoui, Atta purchases flight-deck videos for Boeing 747 and 757 aircraft in a pilot store in Ohio on or about Nov. 5, 2000. He purchases more videos a little over a month later, this time for Boeing 767 and Airbus A320 aircraft.
dec. 2000
Atta and al-Shehhi visit a jet aircraft simulator in Opa-Locka, Fla. For $1,500, they buy six hours of simulator time. They say they want to join an airline and need to familiarize themselves with an airliner cockpit.
jan. 2001
Jarrah arrives at Dubai Airport in the United Arab Emirates. Under questioning, Jarrah tells local authorities that for two months he has been in Pakistan, and -- they presumed -- in Afghanistan, in bin Laden's camps. Jarrah said he was a pilot, headed back to the United States. He had a valid U.S. visa, so Dubai let him go.
In the months leading up to the attack, Atta makes several trips to Europe. U.S. intelligence believes he was mainly making contacts with the Al Qaeda network.
Atta flies from Miami to Madrid in January 2001 and returns to the U.S. six days later. It is not clear whom he meets, but Spanish police have recently rounded up a major Al Qaeda cell, which has direct links to Atta's Hamburg group.
When he returns to Miami, an alert immigration officer notices that Atta's tourist visa has expired, and that he has violated its terms by taking flight lessons. Atta is held for questioning. Finally, he is granted an eight-month extension.
That same month, the CIA learns that Khalid al-Midhar, who would eventually be identified as one of the hijackers aboard American Airlines Flight 77, which crashed into the Pentagon, was involved in planning the bombing of the USS Cole. His name isn't put on an immigration watchlist until the end of August, after he is already in the United States.
april 2001
Atta travels to Prague, in the Czech Republic, where he was observed in a still unexplained meeting with an Iraqi intelligence agent.
spring 2001
Atta and his lieutenants move to the towns north of Miami. The second wave of the hijack team -- the "foot soldiers" -- begins to arrive from Saudi Arabia. They are conservative young Muslims who speak little English.
Jarrah and Atta are both issued Florida driver's licenses on May 2, 2001.
july 4, 2001
Two Saudi members of the hijacking team fly to Newark, N.J., from abroad. They join the other Saudis who are renting an apartment above a convenience store in Patterson, N.J.
july 2001
Atta travels to Spain. Twelve days later, he returns to the U.S. via Atlanta's Hartsfield International Airport.
Also according to the Moussaoui indictment, Jarrah travels from the U.S. to Germany on July 25 and returns on Aug. 4, 2001.
aug. 2001
According to the indictment against Moussaoui, Jarrah takes a "check ride" at a flight school in Ft. Lauderdale, Fla., on Aug. 17. Five days later, he purchases an antenna for a global-positioning system (GPS), and schematics for Boeing 757 cockpit-instrument diagrams.
aug. 26 - sept. 9, 2001
Al-Shehhi resides at the Panther Motel in Deerfield Beach, Fla. When he checks out, investigators now know, he was on his way to board United Airlines Flight 175, bound from Boston's Logan Airport to Los Angeles.
aug. 2001
Moussaoui, a French Moroccan student, is jailed in Minnesota. He arouses suspicion as an inexperienced pilot seeking advanced jet simulator training for a 747 airliner. The flight school alerts the FBI, noting that a fully fueled 747 could be used as a bomb. The FBI now believes that Moussaoui was tapped to take bin al-Shibh's place as the 20th hijacker.
days before the attack
The three remaining members of Atta's Hamburg terrorist cell -- Said Bahaji, Ramzi bin al-Shibh, and Zakariya Essabar -- flee Germany, headed for Afghanistan.
sept. 9, 2001
At Boston's Logan Airport, Atta watches and takes notes as American Airlines Flight 11 prepares for departure.
sept. 10, 2001
In the United Arab Emirates, a man named Mustafa Ahmed al Hawsawi collects cash sent back from the hijackers in America: $5,000 dollars each from Mohamed Atta and two other hijackers. According to Al Qaeda's rules, the hijackers must return any unused funds in order to finance future missions.
Atta and a young Saudi hijacker drive to Portland, Maine, where they check into the Comfort Inn. Various security cameras capture their images as they spend their final hours wandering around Portland.
Add this to the videos of them going through security and the calls from the flight attendents on board the planes and finally to OBL's admitting it on tape.
I guess none of this is proof, right?
Arthur
LOL. I asked for proof, not some 'Tom Clancy novel' hearsay. It's truly amazing how quickly you came up with this story.
Where's the credible source(s) of information for this story? And you have the gall to end this story with 'I guess none of this is proof, right?' Well, you guessed correctly. Absolutely none of that constitutes proof of anything (it was an entertaining read from a fiction POV, though).
You missed questions 2 and 3...here they are again:
2. Where do you stand on the OJ verdict?
3. Will you go public with your 'pancake collapse' views if I can set up an on-line interview?
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 27 2005, 08:28 PM)
QUOTE (Mel+Dec 27 2005, 07:28 PM)
1. Could you point me to the 'proof' that OBL and his minions did it?
At the age of 24, Mohamed Atta, the suspected ringleader...
I just found the source for this story, although I think you have mis-quoted it in many places. Please read the following real information:
Probably not without knowing how it is set up. Besides, what credibility would I have? But more importantly, the questions raised are not easily handled via a interview format.
Now if you put together a PANEL of people, I'd be glad to join.
Arthur
I can see your concern about 'not knowing how it is set up.' You certainly wouldn't want to have happen to you what happened to Prof. Jones on that 'bow-tie boy' interview. You know, the interview where Mr. Jones asked for the footage of WTC 7's collapse to be played, and they refused to play it?
As for the panel, that's not a bad idea. There's safety in numbers, right? I'm going to run this idea by some people and see what transpires. The topic will be the collapse of WTC 7. I will let these people know that I can easily round up supporters of the 'official story' (you, for example), and we'll see if we can't get a real, live debate with real, live people happening.
You tell me. I can't think of a better candidate than DOD. But perhaps you know something we don't.
At the age of 24, Mohamed Atta, the suspected ringleader...
I just found the source for this story, although I think you have mis-quoted it in many places. Please read the following real information:
QUOTE
At the age of 24, Arthur Doucette, the suspected ringleader of the Sept. 11 plot, travels to Hamburg, Germany, and enrolls at a technical university to do graduate study in urban planning.
1996
Doucette begins attending Al Quds mosque, where young men from many Arab countries congregate. Investigators believe Al Quds mosque is where Doucette was radicalized, either through meeting extremists or by direct recruitment by an agent of GWB. Doucette met two other young Arabs at Al Quds who would become members of the Hamburg terror cell and, later, the suicide pilots on Sept. 11 -- Schneibster and RealityCheck.
1996-1999
In April 1996, Schneibster leaves Lebanon for Greifswald, Germany, where he studies German for two semesters before qualifying to take other university courses. After a year in Griefswald, Schneibster continues his studies at the University of Applied Science in Hamburg, where he stays until 1999.
In Hamburg, Schneibster begins a college course in aircraft engineering. After a few months, his landlord, metamars, notices small changes that suggest a new commitment to Islam. According to metamars, he grows a beard and keeps a small prayer mat in his room. He also starts spending time at the Al Quds mosque with RealityCheck and Doucette.
1997-1999
RealityCheck comes to Germany from the United Arab Emirates (U.A.E.) in 1997. During this time, he studies German at the University of Bonn. According to press reports, RealityCheck moved to Hamburg sometime in 1999, where he enrolls at the Technical University.
summer 1997
Doucette disappears from his university for over a year, giving only a vague explanation for his absence. Western intelligence has established that Doucette traveled to Afghanistan, to the camps of Al Qaeda. He is followed by RealityCheck and Schneibster.
While Doucette is in the camps, GWB makes his most menacing threat against the United States. He declares all Americans to be legitimate targets of terror. Doucette also is in the camps when GWB's men bomb two U.S. embassies in East Africa, killing 224 civilians, including 12 Americans.
oct. 1998
Doucette reappears at his university in Hamburg. Observers say he looks more serious, works hard, and doesn't smile as much as before. By now, he has become an operational commander for GWB, and is preparing a big attack. Following the blueprint set out in Al Qaeda's manual, he forms a terror cell. He finds an apartment, No. 54 Marienstrasse, that serves as a base for the cell. The apartment becomes the meeting place for at least six Arab students, including RealityCheck and Schneibster.
late 1999
Doucette, RealityCheck, and Schneibster all report their passports stolen. The old ones bore the evidence that they had all been to GWB's camps. They apply for and receive new passports.
may - june 2000
RealityCheck, Doucette, and Schneibster arrive separately in the U.S. on tourist visas from Berlin.
RealityCheck flies from Europe to Newark, N.J., on May 29, 2000. According to the indictment against 'Common Sense', an alleged co-conspirator in the Sept. 11 plot, one month after RealityCheck enters the U.S., $4,790 is wired to him from the U.A.E.
Schneibster arrives in Atlanta, Ga., on a June 27 flight from Munich, Germany.
Doucette arrives in Newark on or about June 3, on a tourist visa he had received in Berlin on May 18. Investigators say that Doucette, instead of traveling directly to the U.S., traveled to Prague in the Czech Republic, where he stayed for a day before traveling to Newark.
The trio quickly make their way to Florida to learn how to fly. Doucette and RealityCheck enroll at Huffman Aviation.
july - dec. 2000
Doucette and RealityCheck receive flight training at Huffman Aviation in Venice, Fla., where they pay $38,000 for lessons. According to the indictment against 'Common Sense', from July 19 to September 18, $109,440 is transferred from the U.A.E. to a Florida SunTrust bank account under the names of Doucette and RealityCheck. (The FBI says Doucette and RealityCheck eventually were sent more than $100,000 each -- most of the money coming from Dubai, in the U.A.E., one of the world's busiest and most anonymous banking centers.)
fall 2000
Schneibster begins attending the Florida Flight Training Center in Venice, Fla.
He also tries to enroll another member of the Hamburg cell, YesItDid, in flight school. At the time, YesItDid is still living in the Marienstrasse apartment. YesItDid is from Yemen, however, which is considered a hotbed of terrorism, so the U.S. denies his visa four times.
nov. - dec. 2000
According to the indictment against Common Sense, Doucette purchases flight-deck videos for Boeing 747 and 757 aircraft in a pilot store in Ohio on or about Nov. 5, 2000. He purchases more videos a little over a month later, this time for Boeing 767 and Airbus A320 aircraft.
dec. 2000
Doucette and RealityCheck visit a jet aircraft simulator in Opa-Locka, Fla. For $1,500, they buy six hours of simulator time. They say they want to join an airline and need to familiarize themselves with an airliner cockpit.
jan. 2001
Schneibster arrives at Dubai Airport in the United Arab Emirates. Under questioning, Schneibster tells local authorities that for two months he has been in Pakistan, and -- they presumed -- in Afghanistan, in GWB's camps. Schneibster said he was a pilot, headed back to the United States. He had a valid U.S. visa, so Dubai let him go.
In the months leading up to the attack, Doucette makes several trips to Europe. U.S. intelligence believes he was mainly making contacts with the Al Qaeda network.
Doucette flies from Miami to Madrid in January 2001 and returns to the U.S. six days later. It is not clear whom he meets, but Spanish police have recently rounded up a major Al Qaeda cell, which has direct links to Doucette's Hamburg group.
When he returns to Miami, an alert immigration officer notices that Doucette's tourist visa has expired, and that he has violated its terms by taking flight lessons. Doucette is held for questioning. Finally, he is granted an eight-month extension.
That same month, the CIA learns that Santa Claus, who would eventually be identified as one of the hijackers aboard American Airlines Flight 77, which crashed into the Pentagon, was involved in planning the bombing of the USS Cole. His name isn't put on an immigration watchlist until the end of August, after he is already in the United States.
april 2001
Doucette travels to Prague, in the Czech Republic, where he was observed in a still unexplained meeting with an Iraqi intelligence agent.
spring 2001
Doucette and his lieutenants move to the towns north of Miami. The second wave of the hijack team -- the "foot soldiers" -- begins to arrive from Saudi Arabia. They are conservative young Muslims who speak little English.
Schneibster and Doucette are both issued Florida driver's licenses on May 2, 2001.
july 4, 2001
Two Saudi members of the hijacking team fly to Newark, N.J., from abroad. They join the other Saudis who are renting an apartment above a convenience store in Patterson, N.J.
july 2001
Doucette travels to Spain. Twelve days later, he returns to the U.S. via Atlanta's Hartsfield International Airport.
Also according to the Common Sense indictment, Schneibster travels from the U.S. to Germany on July 25 and returns on Aug. 4, 2001.
aug. 2001
According to the indictment against Common Sense, Schneibster takes a "check ride" at a flight school in Ft. Lauderdale, Fla., on Aug. 17. Five days later, he purchases an antenna for a global-positioning system (GPS), and schematics for Boeing 757 cockpit-instrument diagrams.
aug. 26 - sept. 9, 2001
RealityCheck resides at the Panther Motel in Deerfield Beach, Fla. When he checks out, investigators now know, he was on his way to board United Airlines Flight 175, bound from Boston's Logan Airport to Los Angeles.
aug. 2001
Common Sense, a French Moroccan student, is jailed in Minnesota. He arouses suspicion as an inexperienced pilot seeking advanced jet simulator training for a 747 airliner. The flight school alerts the FBI, noting that a fully fueled 747 could be used as a bomb. The FBI now believes that Common Sense was tapped to take YesItDid's place as the 20th hijacker.
days before the Doucetteck
The three remaining members of Doucette's Hamburg terrorist cell -- Sleepy, Dopey YesItDid, and Thumper -- flee Germany, headed for Afghanistan.
sept. 9, 2001
At Boston's Logan Airport, Doucette watches and takes notes as American Airlines Flight 11 prepares for departure.
sept. 10, 2001
In the United Arab Emirates, a man named 'The Easter Bunny' collects cash sent back from the hijackers in America: $5,000 dollars each from Arthur Doucette and two other hijackers. According to Al Qaeda's rules, the hijackers must return any unused funds in order to finance future missions.
Doucette and a young Saudi hijacker drive to Portland, Maine, where they check into the Comfort Inn. Various security cameras capture their images as they spend their final hours wandering around Portland.
1996
Doucette begins attending Al Quds mosque, where young men from many Arab countries congregate. Investigators believe Al Quds mosque is where Doucette was radicalized, either through meeting extremists or by direct recruitment by an agent of GWB. Doucette met two other young Arabs at Al Quds who would become members of the Hamburg terror cell and, later, the suicide pilots on Sept. 11 -- Schneibster and RealityCheck.
1996-1999
In April 1996, Schneibster leaves Lebanon for Greifswald, Germany, where he studies German for two semesters before qualifying to take other university courses. After a year in Griefswald, Schneibster continues his studies at the University of Applied Science in Hamburg, where he stays until 1999.
In Hamburg, Schneibster begins a college course in aircraft engineering. After a few months, his landlord, metamars, notices small changes that suggest a new commitment to Islam. According to metamars, he grows a beard and keeps a small prayer mat in his room. He also starts spending time at the Al Quds mosque with RealityCheck and Doucette.
1997-1999
RealityCheck comes to Germany from the United Arab Emirates (U.A.E.) in 1997. During this time, he studies German at the University of Bonn. According to press reports, RealityCheck moved to Hamburg sometime in 1999, where he enrolls at the Technical University.
summer 1997
Doucette disappears from his university for over a year, giving only a vague explanation for his absence. Western intelligence has established that Doucette traveled to Afghanistan, to the camps of Al Qaeda. He is followed by RealityCheck and Schneibster.
While Doucette is in the camps, GWB makes his most menacing threat against the United States. He declares all Americans to be legitimate targets of terror. Doucette also is in the camps when GWB's men bomb two U.S. embassies in East Africa, killing 224 civilians, including 12 Americans.
oct. 1998
Doucette reappears at his university in Hamburg. Observers say he looks more serious, works hard, and doesn't smile as much as before. By now, he has become an operational commander for GWB, and is preparing a big attack. Following the blueprint set out in Al Qaeda's manual, he forms a terror cell. He finds an apartment, No. 54 Marienstrasse, that serves as a base for the cell. The apartment becomes the meeting place for at least six Arab students, including RealityCheck and Schneibster.
late 1999
Doucette, RealityCheck, and Schneibster all report their passports stolen. The old ones bore the evidence that they had all been to GWB's camps. They apply for and receive new passports.
may - june 2000
RealityCheck, Doucette, and Schneibster arrive separately in the U.S. on tourist visas from Berlin.
RealityCheck flies from Europe to Newark, N.J., on May 29, 2000. According to the indictment against 'Common Sense', an alleged co-conspirator in the Sept. 11 plot, one month after RealityCheck enters the U.S., $4,790 is wired to him from the U.A.E.
Schneibster arrives in Atlanta, Ga., on a June 27 flight from Munich, Germany.
Doucette arrives in Newark on or about June 3, on a tourist visa he had received in Berlin on May 18. Investigators say that Doucette, instead of traveling directly to the U.S., traveled to Prague in the Czech Republic, where he stayed for a day before traveling to Newark.
The trio quickly make their way to Florida to learn how to fly. Doucette and RealityCheck enroll at Huffman Aviation.
july - dec. 2000
Doucette and RealityCheck receive flight training at Huffman Aviation in Venice, Fla., where they pay $38,000 for lessons. According to the indictment against 'Common Sense', from July 19 to September 18, $109,440 is transferred from the U.A.E. to a Florida SunTrust bank account under the names of Doucette and RealityCheck. (The FBI says Doucette and RealityCheck eventually were sent more than $100,000 each -- most of the money coming from Dubai, in the U.A.E., one of the world's busiest and most anonymous banking centers.)
fall 2000
Schneibster begins attending the Florida Flight Training Center in Venice, Fla.
He also tries to enroll another member of the Hamburg cell, YesItDid, in flight school. At the time, YesItDid is still living in the Marienstrasse apartment. YesItDid is from Yemen, however, which is considered a hotbed of terrorism, so the U.S. denies his visa four times.
nov. - dec. 2000
According to the indictment against Common Sense, Doucette purchases flight-deck videos for Boeing 747 and 757 aircraft in a pilot store in Ohio on or about Nov. 5, 2000. He purchases more videos a little over a month later, this time for Boeing 767 and Airbus A320 aircraft.
dec. 2000
Doucette and RealityCheck visit a jet aircraft simulator in Opa-Locka, Fla. For $1,500, they buy six hours of simulator time. They say they want to join an airline and need to familiarize themselves with an airliner cockpit.
jan. 2001
Schneibster arrives at Dubai Airport in the United Arab Emirates. Under questioning, Schneibster tells local authorities that for two months he has been in Pakistan, and -- they presumed -- in Afghanistan, in GWB's camps. Schneibster said he was a pilot, headed back to the United States. He had a valid U.S. visa, so Dubai let him go.
In the months leading up to the attack, Doucette makes several trips to Europe. U.S. intelligence believes he was mainly making contacts with the Al Qaeda network.
Doucette flies from Miami to Madrid in January 2001 and returns to the U.S. six days later. It is not clear whom he meets, but Spanish police have recently rounded up a major Al Qaeda cell, which has direct links to Doucette's Hamburg group.
When he returns to Miami, an alert immigration officer notices that Doucette's tourist visa has expired, and that he has violated its terms by taking flight lessons. Doucette is held for questioning. Finally, he is granted an eight-month extension.
That same month, the CIA learns that Santa Claus, who would eventually be identified as one of the hijackers aboard American Airlines Flight 77, which crashed into the Pentagon, was involved in planning the bombing of the USS Cole. His name isn't put on an immigration watchlist until the end of August, after he is already in the United States.
april 2001
Doucette travels to Prague, in the Czech Republic, where he was observed in a still unexplained meeting with an Iraqi intelligence agent.
spring 2001
Doucette and his lieutenants move to the towns north of Miami. The second wave of the hijack team -- the "foot soldiers" -- begins to arrive from Saudi Arabia. They are conservative young Muslims who speak little English.
Schneibster and Doucette are both issued Florida driver's licenses on May 2, 2001.
july 4, 2001
Two Saudi members of the hijacking team fly to Newark, N.J., from abroad. They join the other Saudis who are renting an apartment above a convenience store in Patterson, N.J.
july 2001
Doucette travels to Spain. Twelve days later, he returns to the U.S. via Atlanta's Hartsfield International Airport.
Also according to the Common Sense indictment, Schneibster travels from the U.S. to Germany on July 25 and returns on Aug. 4, 2001.
aug. 2001
According to the indictment against Common Sense, Schneibster takes a "check ride" at a flight school in Ft. Lauderdale, Fla., on Aug. 17. Five days later, he purchases an antenna for a global-positioning system (GPS), and schematics for Boeing 757 cockpit-instrument diagrams.
aug. 26 - sept. 9, 2001
RealityCheck resides at the Panther Motel in Deerfield Beach, Fla. When he checks out, investigators now know, he was on his way to board United Airlines Flight 175, bound from Boston's Logan Airport to Los Angeles.
aug. 2001
Common Sense, a French Moroccan student, is jailed in Minnesota. He arouses suspicion as an inexperienced pilot seeking advanced jet simulator training for a 747 airliner. The flight school alerts the FBI, noting that a fully fueled 747 could be used as a bomb. The FBI now believes that Common Sense was tapped to take YesItDid's place as the 20th hijacker.
days before the Doucetteck
The three remaining members of Doucette's Hamburg terrorist cell -- Sleepy, Dopey YesItDid, and Thumper -- flee Germany, headed for Afghanistan.
sept. 9, 2001
At Boston's Logan Airport, Doucette watches and takes notes as American Airlines Flight 11 prepares for departure.
sept. 10, 2001
In the United Arab Emirates, a man named 'The Easter Bunny' collects cash sent back from the hijackers in America: $5,000 dollars each from Arthur Doucette and two other hijackers. According to Al Qaeda's rules, the hijackers must return any unused funds in order to finance future missions.
Doucette and a young Saudi hijacker drive to Portland, Maine, where they check into the Comfort Inn. Various security cameras capture their images as they spend their final hours wandering around Portland.
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 27 2005, 08:42 PM)
QUOTE
3. Will you go public with your views if I can set up an on-line interview
Probably not without knowing how it is set up. Besides, what credibility would I have? But more importantly, the questions raised are not easily handled via a interview format.
Now if you put together a PANEL of people, I'd be glad to join.
Arthur
I can see your concern about 'not knowing how it is set up.' You certainly wouldn't want to have happen to you what happened to Prof. Jones on that 'bow-tie boy' interview. You know, the interview where Mr. Jones asked for the footage of WTC 7's collapse to be played, and they refused to play it?
As for the panel, that's not a bad idea. There's safety in numbers, right? I'm going to run this idea by some people and see what transpires. The topic will be the collapse of WTC 7. I will let these people know that I can easily round up supporters of the 'official story' (you, for example), and we'll see if we can't get a real, live debate with real, live people happening.
QUOTE
So on one hand they have it and then on the other hand they would like to have it.
You tell me. I can't think of a better candidate than DOD. But perhaps you know something we don't.
QUOTE (Mel+Dec 27 2005, 09:23 PM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 27 2005, 08:28 PM)
QUOTE (Mel+Dec 27 2005, 07:28 PM)
1. Could you point me to the 'proof' that OBL and his minions did it?
At the age of 24, Mohamed Atta, the suspected ringleader...
I just found the source for this story, although I think you have mis-quoted it in many places. Please read the following real information:
.
Hey Moron (or is it Mel now?...I can't keep track of these idiots who think they're god's gift to science and comedy).
It's apparent that you are non compos mentis when it comes to anything aproaching reality, so would you mind taking MY username out of your misbegotten attempt at humour...I take it was meant to be humour, since in no way could it be called an attempt at a refutation by a thinking individual).
Much appreciated if you could act PRONTO on dissociating my username from that idiotic display of lack of substance and integrity which you posted above. Thanks.
RealityCheck.
.
At the age of 24, Mohamed Atta, the suspected ringleader...
I just found the source for this story, although I think you have mis-quoted it in many places. Please read the following real information:
QUOTE
At the age of 24, Arthur Doucette, the suspected ringleader of the Sept. 11 plot, travels to Hamburg, Germany, and enrolls at a technical university to do graduate study in urban planning.
1996
Doucette begins attending Al Quds mosque, where young men from many Arab countries congregate. Investigators believe Al Quds mosque is where Doucette was radicalized, either through meeting extremists or by direct recruitment by an agent of GWB. Doucette met two other young Arabs at Al Quds who would become members of the Hamburg terror cell and, later, the suicide pilots on Sept. 11 -- Schneibster and RealityCheck.
1996-1999
In April 1996, Schneibster leaves Lebanon for Greifswald, Germany, where he studies German for two semesters before qualifying to take other university courses. After a year in Griefswald, Schneibster continues his studies at the University of Applied Science in Hamburg, where he stays until 1999.
In Hamburg, Schneibster begins a college course in aircraft engineering. After a few months, his landlord, metamars, notices small changes that suggest a new commitment to Islam. According to metamars, he grows a beard and keeps a small prayer mat in his room. He also starts spending time at the Al Quds mosque with RealityCheck and Doucette.
1997-1999
RealityCheck comes to Germany from the United Arab Emirates (U.A.E.) in 1997. During this time, he studies German at the University of Bonn. According to press reports, RealityCheck moved to Hamburg sometime in 1999, where he enrolls at the Technical University.
summer 1997
Doucette disappears from his university for over a year, giving only a vague explanation for his absence. Western intelligence has established that Doucette traveled to Afghanistan, to the camps of Al Qaeda. He is followed by RealityCheck and Schneibster.
While Doucette is in the camps, GWB makes his most menacing threat against the United States. He declares all Americans to be legitimate targets of terror. Doucette also is in the camps when GWB's men bomb two U.S. embassies in East Africa, killing 224 civilians, including 12 Americans.
oct. 1998
Doucette reappears at his university in Hamburg. Observers say he looks more serious, works hard, and doesn't smile as much as before. By now, he has become an operational commander for GWB, and is preparing a big attack. Following the blueprint set out in Al Qaeda's manual, he forms a terror cell. He finds an apartment, No. 54 Marienstrasse, that serves as a base for the cell. The apartment becomes the meeting place for at least six Arab students, including RealityCheck and Schneibster.
late 1999
Doucette, RealityCheck, and Schneibster all report their passports stolen. The old ones bore the evidence that they had all been to GWB's camps. They apply for and receive new passports.
may - june 2000
RealityCheck, Doucette, and Schneibster arrive separately in the U.S. on tourist visas from Berlin.
RealityCheck flies from Europe to Newark, N.J., on May 29, 2000. According to the indictment against 'Common Sense', an alleged co-conspirator in the Sept. 11 plot, one month after RealityCheck enters the U.S., $4,790 is wired to him from the U.A.E.
Schneibster arrives in Atlanta, Ga., on a June 27 flight from Munich, Germany.
Doucette arrives in Newark on or about June 3, on a tourist visa he had received in Berlin on May 18. Investigators say that Doucette, instead of traveling directly to the U.S., traveled to Prague in the Czech Republic, where he stayed for a day before traveling to Newark.
The trio quickly make their way to Florida to learn how to fly. Doucette and RealityCheck enroll at Huffman Aviation.
july - dec. 2000
Doucette and RealityCheck receive flight training at Huffman Aviation in Venice, Fla., where they pay $38,000 for lessons. According to the indictment against 'Common Sense', from July 19 to September 18, $109,440 is transferred from the U.A.E. to a Florida SunTrust bank account under the names of Doucette and RealityCheck. (The FBI says Doucette and RealityCheck eventually were sent more than $100,000 each -- most of the money coming from Dubai, in the U.A.E., one of the world's busiest and most anonymous banking centers.)
fall 2000
Schneibster begins attending the Florida Flight Training Center in Venice, Fla.
He also tries to enroll another member of the Hamburg cell, YesItDid, in flight school. At the time, YesItDid is still living in the Marienstrasse apartment. YesItDid is from Yemen, however, which is considered a hotbed of terrorism, so the U.S. denies his visa four times.
nov. - dec. 2000
According to the indictment against Common Sense, Doucette purchases flight-deck videos for Boeing 747 and 757 aircraft in a pilot store in Ohio on or about Nov. 5, 2000. He purchases more videos a little over a month later, this time for Boeing 767 and Airbus A320 aircraft.
dec. 2000
Doucette and RealityCheck visit a jet aircraft simulator in Opa-Locka, Fla. For $1,500, they buy six hours of simulator time. They say they want to join an airline and need to familiarize themselves with an airliner cockpit.
jan. 2001
Schneibster arrives at Dubai Airport in the United Arab Emirates. Under questioning, Schneibster tells local authorities that for two months he has been in Pakistan, and -- they presumed -- in Afghanistan, in GWB's camps. Schneibster said he was a pilot, headed back to the United States. He had a valid U.S. visa, so Dubai let him go.
In the months leading up to the attack, Doucette makes several trips to Europe. U.S. intelligence believes he was mainly making contacts with the Al Qaeda network.
Doucette flies from Miami to Madrid in January 2001 and returns to the U.S. six days later. It is not clear whom he meets, but Spanish police have recently rounded up a major Al Qaeda cell, which has direct links to Doucette's Hamburg group.
When he returns to Miami, an alert immigration officer notices that Doucette's tourist visa has expired, and that he has violated its terms by taking flight lessons. Doucette is held for questioning. Finally, he is granted an eight-month extension.
That same month, the CIA learns that Santa Claus, who would eventually be identified as one of the hijackers aboard American Airlines Flight 77, which crashed into the Pentagon, was involved in planning the bombing of the USS Cole. His name isn't put on an immigration watchlist until the end of August, after he is already in the United States.
april 2001
Doucette travels to Prague, in the Czech Republic, where he was observed in a still unexplained meeting with an Iraqi intelligence agent.
spring 2001
Doucette and his lieutenants move to the towns north of Miami. The second wave of the hijack team -- the "foot soldiers" -- begins to arrive from Saudi Arabia. They are conservative young Muslims who speak little English.
Schneibster and Doucette are both issued Florida driver's licenses on May 2, 2001.
july 4, 2001
Two Saudi members of the hijacking team fly to Newark, N.J., from abroad. They join the other Saudis who are renting an apartment above a convenience store in Patterson, N.J.
july 2001
Doucette travels to Spain. Twelve days later, he returns to the U.S. via Atlanta's Hartsfield International Airport.
Also according to the Common Sense indictment, Schneibster travels from the U.S. to Germany on July 25 and returns on Aug. 4, 2001.
aug. 2001
According to the indictment against Common Sense, Schneibster takes a "check ride" at a flight school in Ft. Lauderdale, Fla., on Aug. 17. Five days later, he purchases an antenna for a global-positioning system (GPS), and schematics for Boeing 757 cockpit-instrument diagrams.
aug. 26 - sept. 9, 2001
RealityCheck resides at the Panther Motel in Deerfield Beach, Fla. When he checks out, investigators now know, he was on his way to board United Airlines Flight 175, bound from Boston's Logan Airport to Los Angeles.
aug. 2001
Common Sense, a French Moroccan student, is jailed in Minnesota. He arouses suspicion as an inexperienced pilot seeking advanced jet simulator training for a 747 airliner. The flight school alerts the FBI, noting that a fully fueled 747 could be used as a bomb. The FBI now believes that Common Sense was tapped to take YesItDid's place as the 20th hijacker.
days before the Doucetteck
The three remaining members of Doucette's Hamburg terrorist cell -- Sleepy, Dopey YesItDid, and Thumper -- flee Germany, headed for Afghanistan.
sept. 9, 2001
At Boston's Logan Airport, Doucette watches and takes notes as American Airlines Flight 11 prepares for departure.
sept. 10, 2001
In the United Arab Emirates, a man named 'The Easter Bunny' collects cash sent back from the hijackers in America: $5,000 dollars each from Arthur Doucette and two other hijackers. According to Al Qaeda's rules, the hijackers must return any unused funds in order to finance future missions.
Doucette and a young Saudi hijacker drive to Portland, Maine, where they check into the Comfort Inn. Various security cameras capture their images as they spend their final hours wandering around Portland.
1996
Doucette begins attending Al Quds mosque, where young men from many Arab countries congregate. Investigators believe Al Quds mosque is where Doucette was radicalized, either through meeting extremists or by direct recruitment by an agent of GWB. Doucette met two other young Arabs at Al Quds who would become members of the Hamburg terror cell and, later, the suicide pilots on Sept. 11 -- Schneibster and RealityCheck.
1996-1999
In April 1996, Schneibster leaves Lebanon for Greifswald, Germany, where he studies German for two semesters before qualifying to take other university courses. After a year in Griefswald, Schneibster continues his studies at the University of Applied Science in Hamburg, where he stays until 1999.
In Hamburg, Schneibster begins a college course in aircraft engineering. After a few months, his landlord, metamars, notices small changes that suggest a new commitment to Islam. According to metamars, he grows a beard and keeps a small prayer mat in his room. He also starts spending time at the Al Quds mosque with RealityCheck and Doucette.
1997-1999
RealityCheck comes to Germany from the United Arab Emirates (U.A.E.) in 1997. During this time, he studies German at the University of Bonn. According to press reports, RealityCheck moved to Hamburg sometime in 1999, where he enrolls at the Technical University.
summer 1997
Doucette disappears from his university for over a year, giving only a vague explanation for his absence. Western intelligence has established that Doucette traveled to Afghanistan, to the camps of Al Qaeda. He is followed by RealityCheck and Schneibster.
While Doucette is in the camps, GWB makes his most menacing threat against the United States. He declares all Americans to be legitimate targets of terror. Doucette also is in the camps when GWB's men bomb two U.S. embassies in East Africa, killing 224 civilians, including 12 Americans.
oct. 1998
Doucette reappears at his university in Hamburg. Observers say he looks more serious, works hard, and doesn't smile as much as before. By now, he has become an operational commander for GWB, and is preparing a big attack. Following the blueprint set out in Al Qaeda's manual, he forms a terror cell. He finds an apartment, No. 54 Marienstrasse, that serves as a base for the cell. The apartment becomes the meeting place for at least six Arab students, including RealityCheck and Schneibster.
late 1999
Doucette, RealityCheck, and Schneibster all report their passports stolen. The old ones bore the evidence that they had all been to GWB's camps. They apply for and receive new passports.
may - june 2000
RealityCheck, Doucette, and Schneibster arrive separately in the U.S. on tourist visas from Berlin.
RealityCheck flies from Europe to Newark, N.J., on May 29, 2000. According to the indictment against 'Common Sense', an alleged co-conspirator in the Sept. 11 plot, one month after RealityCheck enters the U.S., $4,790 is wired to him from the U.A.E.
Schneibster arrives in Atlanta, Ga., on a June 27 flight from Munich, Germany.
Doucette arrives in Newark on or about June 3, on a tourist visa he had received in Berlin on May 18. Investigators say that Doucette, instead of traveling directly to the U.S., traveled to Prague in the Czech Republic, where he stayed for a day before traveling to Newark.
The trio quickly make their way to Florida to learn how to fly. Doucette and RealityCheck enroll at Huffman Aviation.
july - dec. 2000
Doucette and RealityCheck receive flight training at Huffman Aviation in Venice, Fla., where they pay $38,000 for lessons. According to the indictment against 'Common Sense', from July 19 to September 18, $109,440 is transferred from the U.A.E. to a Florida SunTrust bank account under the names of Doucette and RealityCheck. (The FBI says Doucette and RealityCheck eventually were sent more than $100,000 each -- most of the money coming from Dubai, in the U.A.E., one of the world's busiest and most anonymous banking centers.)
fall 2000
Schneibster begins attending the Florida Flight Training Center in Venice, Fla.
He also tries to enroll another member of the Hamburg cell, YesItDid, in flight school. At the time, YesItDid is still living in the Marienstrasse apartment. YesItDid is from Yemen, however, which is considered a hotbed of terrorism, so the U.S. denies his visa four times.
nov. - dec. 2000
According to the indictment against Common Sense, Doucette purchases flight-deck videos for Boeing 747 and 757 aircraft in a pilot store in Ohio on or about Nov. 5, 2000. He purchases more videos a little over a month later, this time for Boeing 767 and Airbus A320 aircraft.
dec. 2000
Doucette and RealityCheck visit a jet aircraft simulator in Opa-Locka, Fla. For $1,500, they buy six hours of simulator time. They say they want to join an airline and need to familiarize themselves with an airliner cockpit.
jan. 2001
Schneibster arrives at Dubai Airport in the United Arab Emirates. Under questioning, Schneibster tells local authorities that for two months he has been in Pakistan, and -- they presumed -- in Afghanistan, in GWB's camps. Schneibster said he was a pilot, headed back to the United States. He had a valid U.S. visa, so Dubai let him go.
In the months leading up to the attack, Doucette makes several trips to Europe. U.S. intelligence believes he was mainly making contacts with the Al Qaeda network.
Doucette flies from Miami to Madrid in January 2001 and returns to the U.S. six days later. It is not clear whom he meets, but Spanish police have recently rounded up a major Al Qaeda cell, which has direct links to Doucette's Hamburg group.
When he returns to Miami, an alert immigration officer notices that Doucette's tourist visa has expired, and that he has violated its terms by taking flight lessons. Doucette is held for questioning. Finally, he is granted an eight-month extension.
That same month, the CIA learns that Santa Claus, who would eventually be identified as one of the hijackers aboard American Airlines Flight 77, which crashed into the Pentagon, was involved in planning the bombing of the USS Cole. His name isn't put on an immigration watchlist until the end of August, after he is already in the United States.
april 2001
Doucette travels to Prague, in the Czech Republic, where he was observed in a still unexplained meeting with an Iraqi intelligence agent.
spring 2001
Doucette and his lieutenants move to the towns north of Miami. The second wave of the hijack team -- the "foot soldiers" -- begins to arrive from Saudi Arabia. They are conservative young Muslims who speak little English.
Schneibster and Doucette are both issued Florida driver's licenses on May 2, 2001.
july 4, 2001
Two Saudi members of the hijacking team fly to Newark, N.J., from abroad. They join the other Saudis who are renting an apartment above a convenience store in Patterson, N.J.
july 2001
Doucette travels to Spain. Twelve days later, he returns to the U.S. via Atlanta's Hartsfield International Airport.
Also according to the Common Sense indictment, Schneibster travels from the U.S. to Germany on July 25 and returns on Aug. 4, 2001.
aug. 2001
According to the indictment against Common Sense, Schneibster takes a "check ride" at a flight school in Ft. Lauderdale, Fla., on Aug. 17. Five days later, he purchases an antenna for a global-positioning system (GPS), and schematics for Boeing 757 cockpit-instrument diagrams.
aug. 26 - sept. 9, 2001
RealityCheck resides at the Panther Motel in Deerfield Beach, Fla. When he checks out, investigators now know, he was on his way to board United Airlines Flight 175, bound from Boston's Logan Airport to Los Angeles.
aug. 2001
Common Sense, a French Moroccan student, is jailed in Minnesota. He arouses suspicion as an inexperienced pilot seeking advanced jet simulator training for a 747 airliner. The flight school alerts the FBI, noting that a fully fueled 747 could be used as a bomb. The FBI now believes that Common Sense was tapped to take YesItDid's place as the 20th hijacker.
days before the Doucetteck
The three remaining members of Doucette's Hamburg terrorist cell -- Sleepy, Dopey YesItDid, and Thumper -- flee Germany, headed for Afghanistan.
sept. 9, 2001
At Boston's Logan Airport, Doucette watches and takes notes as American Airlines Flight 11 prepares for departure.
sept. 10, 2001
In the United Arab Emirates, a man named 'The Easter Bunny' collects cash sent back from the hijackers in America: $5,000 dollars each from Arthur Doucette and two other hijackers. According to Al Qaeda's rules, the hijackers must return any unused funds in order to finance future missions.
Doucette and a young Saudi hijacker drive to Portland, Maine, where they check into the Comfort Inn. Various security cameras capture their images as they spend their final hours wandering around Portland.
.
Hey Moron (or is it Mel now?...I can't keep track of these idiots who think they're god's gift to science and comedy).
It's apparent that you are non compos mentis when it comes to anything aproaching reality, so would you mind taking MY username out of your misbegotten attempt at humour...I take it was meant to be humour, since in no way could it be called an attempt at a refutation by a thinking individual).
Much appreciated if you could act PRONTO on dissociating my username from that idiotic display of lack of substance and integrity which you posted above. Thanks.
RealityCheck.
.
adoucette,
Since your in such a desperate need I'll give you a clue about how reality works. Try to bookmark this post and re-read it as many times as you need, because your having some real serious problems in dealing with reality.
Let me start by pointing out that this world includes people who tell the truth some of the time, and people who tell lies some of the time. Our jobs should be to try and figure out when a truth is being told and when a lie is being repeated over and over again, because my dear boy a lie is not of the truth, THERE IS A DIFFERENCE.
Now let me break it down for you and explain the difference between a lie and the truth.
If a family of a husband, wife and 5 kids, who lived in Nazi Germany in 1942 were full blown Jewish, but also just happened to have blond hair and blue eyes were questioned by the Gestapo about their religion, the dad would have the choice of telling the truth in that they were Jewish, or tell a lie and say they were not, as they looked arian and could get away with it.
If he tells the truth they hall him and his family off to the gas chambers, but if he lies then they leave them alone and they get to live. So he tells them a lie, a big lie, but it saves his families lives.
Do you understand now? There is a difference between a lie and the truth and in that case it is perfectly understandable and acceptible why the guy lied.
In your case as in many other bush fairy tale supporters, we underdtand that you are lying about the facts. Now I'm not saying that you necessarily and other people who perpetrate these REDICULOUS lies about some man in a cave SUSPENDING THE LAWS OF GRAVITY ON 9/11 are evil, rotten bad people who should be hanged.
But I am saying that you are clearly lying. I understand that it may be due to fear, like the Jewish family who lied to the Gestapo, maybe you live in constant fear about big brother tracking you down for speaking the truth about what you really think happened on 9/11. I really don't know why you're lying, but I do know for a fact that you are.
Now when I say that you're lying, being disingenious and very insincere, I'm really giving you the benefit of the doubt, because the only other reason you could be spreading these nonsensical fantasies about the MAGICIAN IN THE CAVE, is that you would have to be so brain dead and ignorant as to not recognize the laws of gravity.
You see even small children know about the laws of gravity, they know what goes up must come down, (unless something blocks the fall) and even 1st graders know that 2 + 2 = 4, but for some reason you and your partners are trying to convince people that 2 + 2 = 9.
There's absolutely no debate whatsoever about the physics involved with the towers collapsing, that my boy is FACT, undeniable fact. But the issue is whether someone chooses to spread the truth or spread lies, and as I said before, I'm not saying your necessarily an evil person for spreading lies, but in truth they are lies, you know it, I know it, and I'm sure many other people do to. I still forgive you.
Since your in such a desperate need I'll give you a clue about how reality works. Try to bookmark this post and re-read it as many times as you need, because your having some real serious problems in dealing with reality.
Let me start by pointing out that this world includes people who tell the truth some of the time, and people who tell lies some of the time. Our jobs should be to try and figure out when a truth is being told and when a lie is being repeated over and over again, because my dear boy a lie is not of the truth, THERE IS A DIFFERENCE.
Now let me break it down for you and explain the difference between a lie and the truth.
If a family of a husband, wife and 5 kids, who lived in Nazi Germany in 1942 were full blown Jewish, but also just happened to have blond hair and blue eyes were questioned by the Gestapo about their religion, the dad would have the choice of telling the truth in that they were Jewish, or tell a lie and say they were not, as they looked arian and could get away with it.
If he tells the truth they hall him and his family off to the gas chambers, but if he lies then they leave them alone and they get to live. So he tells them a lie, a big lie, but it saves his families lives.
Do you understand now? There is a difference between a lie and the truth and in that case it is perfectly understandable and acceptible why the guy lied.
In your case as in many other bush fairy tale supporters, we underdtand that you are lying about the facts. Now I'm not saying that you necessarily and other people who perpetrate these REDICULOUS lies about some man in a cave SUSPENDING THE LAWS OF GRAVITY ON 9/11 are evil, rotten bad people who should be hanged.
But I am saying that you are clearly lying. I understand that it may be due to fear, like the Jewish family who lied to the Gestapo, maybe you live in constant fear about big brother tracking you down for speaking the truth about what you really think happened on 9/11. I really don't know why you're lying, but I do know for a fact that you are.
Now when I say that you're lying, being disingenious and very insincere, I'm really giving you the benefit of the doubt, because the only other reason you could be spreading these nonsensical fantasies about the MAGICIAN IN THE CAVE, is that you would have to be so brain dead and ignorant as to not recognize the laws of gravity.
You see even small children know about the laws of gravity, they know what goes up must come down, (unless something blocks the fall) and even 1st graders know that 2 + 2 = 4, but for some reason you and your partners are trying to convince people that 2 + 2 = 9.
There's absolutely no debate whatsoever about the physics involved with the towers collapsing, that my boy is FACT, undeniable fact. But the issue is whether someone chooses to spread the truth or spread lies, and as I said before, I'm not saying your necessarily an evil person for spreading lies, but in truth they are lies, you know it, I know it, and I'm sure many other people do to. I still forgive you.
adoucette,
My poor misguided friend, at least your very consistent about being WRONG in your statements.
I'll shed a little light on the OJ case.
Number one, the prosecution did a fine job, they proved WELL beyond a reasonable doubt that OJ did the crime. Of course there were little things they could have done better, but LET'S GET REAL HERE, who in their RIGHT MIND, after watching the OJ trial thought he was innocent???
The prosecution did prove their case, but people with no ability to think for themselves can only parrot what some ignoramus talking heads spew out of their mouths.
Now regarding the gloves, you're terribly wrong again. I saw that with my own eyes, and the gloves clearly fit as best they could, CONSIDERING THE FACT THAT HE WAS WEARING LATEX GLOVES UNDERNEATH.
And even with the latex gloves underneath it was obvious that all OJ had to do was pull on the gloves a little tighter to give them the smug tight fit they were intended for.
In fact when OJ tried the gloves on, it was obvious they did fit, yet he purposely PRETENDED they did not, which made him look more guilty.
But ignoramuses who can't see beyond the other parrots aren't able to accept the fact that an injustice was done and that our court systems sometimes FAIL. In the case of OJ, the jury was responsible for the injustice. The jury was wrong, they were probably threatened, bribed and who knows what else, but it had nothing to do with the prosecution.
This just goes to show you how AIR HEADS can't put the blame where it belongs, but always put it in the wrong place.
Just like 9/11. Instead of blaming Bush for sitting in that classroom for 7 straight minutes, which that alone should be an impeachable offense, as he gave the other planes plenty of time to do their thing.
And instead of blaming NORAD, and the FAA for FAILING miserably to take out the hijacked planes, of which they had at least 20 minutes advance warning, instead the airheads blame the MAGICIAN IN THE CAVE.
I shouldn't be so mean to ignorant airheads like adoucette, I should be more understanding of their mental deficit, so please excuse my harshness, but mindless ignorance and deception has a way of getting under my skin.
My poor misguided friend, at least your very consistent about being WRONG in your statements.
I'll shed a little light on the OJ case.
Number one, the prosecution did a fine job, they proved WELL beyond a reasonable doubt that OJ did the crime. Of course there were little things they could have done better, but LET'S GET REAL HERE, who in their RIGHT MIND, after watching the OJ trial thought he was innocent???
The prosecution did prove their case, but people with no ability to think for themselves can only parrot what some ignoramus talking heads spew out of their mouths.
Now regarding the gloves, you're terribly wrong again. I saw that with my own eyes, and the gloves clearly fit as best they could, CONSIDERING THE FACT THAT HE WAS WEARING LATEX GLOVES UNDERNEATH.
And even with the latex gloves underneath it was obvious that all OJ had to do was pull on the gloves a little tighter to give them the smug tight fit they were intended for.
In fact when OJ tried the gloves on, it was obvious they did fit, yet he purposely PRETENDED they did not, which made him look more guilty.
But ignoramuses who can't see beyond the other parrots aren't able to accept the fact that an injustice was done and that our court systems sometimes FAIL. In the case of OJ, the jury was responsible for the injustice. The jury was wrong, they were probably threatened, bribed and who knows what else, but it had nothing to do with the prosecution.
This just goes to show you how AIR HEADS can't put the blame where it belongs, but always put it in the wrong place.
Just like 9/11. Instead of blaming Bush for sitting in that classroom for 7 straight minutes, which that alone should be an impeachable offense, as he gave the other planes plenty of time to do their thing.
And instead of blaming NORAD, and the FAA for FAILING miserably to take out the hijacked planes, of which they had at least 20 minutes advance warning, instead the airheads blame the MAGICIAN IN THE CAVE.
I shouldn't be so mean to ignorant airheads like adoucette, I should be more understanding of their mental deficit, so please excuse my harshness, but mindless ignorance and deception has a way of getting under my skin.
QUOTE (Mel+Dec 27 2005, 08:32 PM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 27 2005, 06:27 PM)
QUOTE (Mel+)
Of course, what Mr. Silverstein really meant by this statement could be easily ascertained simply by asking the man what he meant, under oath.
DA: Now Mr. Silverstein, would you please tell the court what you meant by "pull it"?
Silverstein: I meant that we shouldn't risk any more human lives and we should pull the firefighting efforts.
DA: Oh come on Mr. Silverstein, EVERYBODY KNOWS that "Pull it" is the phrase the Controlled Demolitionists use when they are discussing a CD. Do you mean to tell us that you just HAPPENED to use the same phrase just before the WTC 7 building collapsed?
Silverstein: Yes
DA: Mr Silverstein, do you think we are that STUPID?
Silverstein: Apparently so.
Arthur
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. Are you saying that all Mr. Silverstein has to do is lie about what he meant? If so, then fair enough.
But to continue along with this court transcript, the DA then needs to bring in the supposed 'fire department commander' Mr. S. was speaking to and ask him what his interpretation of Mr. S.'s remark is, and if he concurs with the remark. Then, the DA needs to bring in, say, 100 signed affidavits from firefighters around the country that state the the term 'pull it' is professional lingo for 'pull fire fighting efforts'. Then the DA needs to bring in the same number of affidavits from CD company employees around the globe that states that the phrase 'pull it' does NOT mean to 'bring the building down' with explosives. Then, we let the jury decide.
Until we do this, the entire conversation is simply more merry-go-round bull-pucky.
No, what ACTUALLY would have to happen is SOME EVIDENCE that the buildings WERE brought down with Controlled Demolition.
Since so far there is NONE, the transcript would never occur, since you are charging someone with a crime with no evidence a crime was in fact committed.
Arthur
DA: Now Mr. Silverstein, would you please tell the court what you meant by "pull it"?
Silverstein: I meant that we shouldn't risk any more human lives and we should pull the firefighting efforts.
DA: Oh come on Mr. Silverstein, EVERYBODY KNOWS that "Pull it" is the phrase the Controlled Demolitionists use when they are discussing a CD. Do you mean to tell us that you just HAPPENED to use the same phrase just before the WTC 7 building collapsed?
Silverstein: Yes
DA: Mr Silverstein, do you think we are that STUPID?
Silverstein: Apparently so.
Arthur
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. Are you saying that all Mr. Silverstein has to do is lie about what he meant? If so, then fair enough.
But to continue along with this court transcript, the DA then needs to bring in the supposed 'fire department commander' Mr. S. was speaking to and ask him what his interpretation of Mr. S.'s remark is, and if he concurs with the remark. Then, the DA needs to bring in, say, 100 signed affidavits from firefighters around the country that state the the term 'pull it' is professional lingo for 'pull fire fighting efforts'. Then the DA needs to bring in the same number of affidavits from CD company employees around the globe that states that the phrase 'pull it' does NOT mean to 'bring the building down' with explosives. Then, we let the jury decide.
Until we do this, the entire conversation is simply more merry-go-round bull-pucky.
No, what ACTUALLY would have to happen is SOME EVIDENCE that the buildings WERE brought down with Controlled Demolition.
Since so far there is NONE, the transcript would never occur, since you are charging someone with a crime with no evidence a crime was in fact committed.
Arthur
Mel,
It's a good thing your on this board keeping some logic and sanity, otherwise it might look like another Fox news, main stream media Xerox copy of a parrot.
You are most definitely correct about the investigation going way overboard. I agree there is more than enough evidence to conclude the magician in the cave fantasy is about as believable as what some people are saying, IE; UFOs did it.
The question is what do about the fact that our government is so corrupt that many are responsible for doing the crime, while others responsible for aiding and abetting, while others are responsible for turning a blind eye and not doing a thing.
This is a tough one, because if justice was done you'd have to arrest most of the congressmen and all of the Whitehorse, not to mention a huge percentage of the judges.
While I still think there are some honest cops, some honest FBI, and some honest people in the military the sad fact is they seem to be few and far between, and even if they are honest, how could a couple of good cops arrest half the government?
It's a tough one, but there's always hope, because according to the Constitution this government is for the people and by the people, (not buy the people) and the politicians are only HIRED HELP.
It's a good thing your on this board keeping some logic and sanity, otherwise it might look like another Fox news, main stream media Xerox copy of a parrot.
You are most definitely correct about the investigation going way overboard. I agree there is more than enough evidence to conclude the magician in the cave fantasy is about as believable as what some people are saying, IE; UFOs did it.
The question is what do about the fact that our government is so corrupt that many are responsible for doing the crime, while others responsible for aiding and abetting, while others are responsible for turning a blind eye and not doing a thing.
This is a tough one, because if justice was done you'd have to arrest most of the congressmen and all of the Whitehorse, not to mention a huge percentage of the judges.
While I still think there are some honest cops, some honest FBI, and some honest people in the military the sad fact is they seem to be few and far between, and even if they are honest, how could a couple of good cops arrest half the government?
It's a tough one, but there's always hope, because according to the Constitution this government is for the people and by the people, (not buy the people) and the politicians are only HIRED HELP.
Some good & interesting points brought forward from a couple of 'newbies' today. (no offense meant by the title 'newbie'. New to this thread doesn't mean you were just born. 
QUOTE (Foxx+)
NO gravity-driven collapse supporter has yet properly (or convincingly) re-butted the very words of the NIST and pre-NIST reports which state that the fires were NOT sufficiently intense (or of the duration) to weaken the steel columns in the first place.
Uhhhhh, no Arthur... the Turbonium post is not BS at all.
It is totally based upon an in depth (contextual) analysis of what NIST is actually saying.
I keep going over these 'final' draft for public discussion 'reports'...
and once I figure out what they are trying to say in one report, they change it... just like they had to; over the Kevin Ryan public letter to Shyham {sp}.
They have been twisting & dancing all over the map with their 'theory'.
They tweaked their computer model to 'fit the story' rather than doing an honest & independant blue-ribbon panel scientific investigation... (as demanded by fire engineering officials and victim's relatives groups).
They are deliberately lying when the claim "No Steel was Recovered from WTC 7
But when all their handwaving and postulating is examined under valid scientific evidence, it falls apart faster than the towers.
NIST's 'underlings' (FEMA, BPAT, ASCE, etc) were in charge of collecting the evidence.
Un-named 'officials'...
1 --- fought every attempt to preserve the physical evidence, and seemed to have some 'god-given' authority to violate New York law regarding the destruction of evidence...
Exactly WHO were these 'officials' ?
No... please tell me it wasn't the same 'officials' as 'them' who 'cooked' false evidence to start a war with a foreign soveriegn nation (or two)? These are not the same 'law-breakers' who said "screw the Constitiution... we don't NEED lawful authority to 'tap' private calls within US borders"... ???
Uhhhhh, no Arthur... the Turbonium post is not BS at all.
It is totally based upon an in depth (contextual) analysis of what NIST is actually saying.
I keep going over these 'final' draft for public discussion 'reports'...
and once I figure out what they are trying to say in one report, they change it... just like they had to; over the Kevin Ryan public letter to Shyham {sp}.
They have been twisting & dancing all over the map with their 'theory'.
They tweaked their computer model to 'fit the story' rather than doing an honest & independant blue-ribbon panel scientific investigation... (as demanded by fire engineering officials and victim's relatives groups).
They are deliberately lying when the claim "No Steel was Recovered from WTC 7
But when all their handwaving and postulating is examined under valid scientific evidence, it falls apart faster than the towers.
NIST's 'underlings' (FEMA, BPAT, ASCE, etc) were in charge of collecting the evidence.
Un-named 'officials'...
1 --- fought every attempt to preserve the physical evidence, and seemed to have some 'god-given' authority to violate New York law regarding the destruction of evidence...
Exactly WHO were these 'officials' ?
No... please tell me it wasn't the same 'officials' as 'them' who 'cooked' false evidence to start a war with a foreign soveriegn nation (or two)? These are not the same 'law-breakers' who said "screw the Constitiution... we don't NEED lawful authority to 'tap' private calls within US borders"... ???
PENAL LAW 215.40(2)
TAMPERING WITH PHYSICAL EVIDENCE
(E Felony)
(Destroying Evidence)
http://www.nycourts.gov/cji/3-PenalLaw/215/art215hp.htm
Regarding the above, 'Turbonium' notes...
You may argue that it was not a deliberate removal of evidence from a crime scene. From the law linked above, three elements must be proven beyond reasonable doubt.. In summary, relating to the removal of WTC steel.....
1. That the defendant destroyed physical evidence.
2. That the defendant did destroy such evidence believing that it was to be used in an official proceeding, or prospective official proceeding.
3. That the defendand did so to prevent such use.
Point 1 is a given. Points 2 and 3 are quite possible to prove as well, , in light of the actions by groups protesting the removal while it was still occurring. One such group was the one organized by Fire Engineering's Bill Manning, linked below...
http://fe.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Dis...ION_ID=25&ARTIC LE_ID=130026
These were calls and emails made by many fire investigators and private individuals to local, state and federal officials to demand a stop to the removal of the crime scene evidence. So the people involved were well aware that this was removal/destruction of evidence they were conducting. And they continued to destroy the evidence despite this knowledge.
Even before the protests began, there may be enough evidence unearthed that those involved. If those responsible for directing this activity have in the past not followed this procedure, it can quite likely be shown that this was a deliberate breach of standard procedure.
&
2 --- did everything in their power to interfere with the examination & collection process of this forensic evidence.
&
2 --- did everything in their power to interfere with the examination & collection process of this forensic evidence.
House Committee on Science
March 6, 2002
COMMITTEE CALLS FOR BROADER WORLD TRADE CENTER INVESTIGATION
http://www.house.gov/science/press/107/107-175.htm
A fuller account of these proceedings can be found here...
107 th Congress
Report
House of Representatives{/b]
c 99-006 2d Session
[b]107-530
NATIONAL CONSTRUCTION SAFETY TEAM ACT
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpquery/T?&r...30&dbname=cp107
Gee, man... I'm Canadian ... do I have to tell you americans where to look?
From the above...
Gee, man... I'm Canadian ... do I have to tell you americans where to look?
From the above...
The BPAT's lack of investigative powers led to problems gaining access to information it needed to complete its work. BPAT members had no authority to impound steel evidence after it was removed from the WTC site. This problem, coupled with the difficulty the team faced in gaining access to the site, led to the destruction of important pieces of steel evidence. In addition, because FEMA did not immediately intervene on behalf of the BPAT, building owners, designers, and insurers delayed the BPAT's access to pertinent building documents. For example, the BPAT did not receive the full set of blueprints until January 2002. The BPAT was also denied access to other information such as the tapes of 911 calls to the New York City Police Department and unaired high-quality video footage of the attack taken by the major television networks.
I, myself, find it an odd 'community' you have in the USofA. Are you people ALL 'cultists' ???
The 'investigation' into a physics & engineering anomaly (which has never been seen prior to Sept 11 2001 or heard of since), is relegated to a mere 14 million dollar budget...
14 million is what you might spend on a little 150' yacht for these people!
http://www.foxxaero.com/indrad_031.html
NIST Quote: ... "Sorry, Folks... we run outa money to investigate this Miraculous Event.
This is NOT a 'BIG Deal'... (It's NOT like there is some sexual BJ that we are investigating here.
If it was 'that Big', we would have had 40 million to spend on it !"
Take off those rose-colored glasses, and see what is REALLY going on... or keep wearing them and pretending you have no clue...
...like the Nazi Train Engineers... (i see no evil... i hear no evil... i speak no evil... I'm just paid to get this train from point A to point B... If I pretend I don't know what my cargo is... I'll be fine).
QUOTE
Reply by adoucette
Why SHOULD we rebut this?
It is NOT NISTs Contention that the primary cause of the collapse was failure of the central columns due to heating. Those remaining (~75%) were weakened, maybe 20 -25% by the heating, but the failure initially began with the failure of the perimeter columns.
That Turbonium post is utter BS, as NIST in its final report states that it only analyzed 1% of core columns from the fire zone and 3% of perimeter columns.
You know it would REALLY help if you ACTUALLY READ the final NIST report.
Arthur
Why SHOULD we rebut this?
It is NOT NISTs Contention that the primary cause of the collapse was failure of the central columns due to heating. Those remaining (~75%) were weakened, maybe 20 -25% by the heating, but the failure initially began with the failure of the perimeter columns.
That Turbonium post is utter BS, as NIST in its final report states that it only analyzed 1% of core columns from the fire zone and 3% of perimeter columns.
You know it would REALLY help if you ACTUALLY READ the final NIST report.
Arthur
Uhhhhh, no Arthur... the Turbonium post is not BS at all.
It is totally based upon an in depth (contextual) analysis of what NIST is actually saying.
I keep going over these 'final' draft for public discussion 'reports'...
and once I figure out what they are trying to say in one report, they change it... just like they had to; over the Kevin Ryan public letter to Shyham {sp}.
They have been twisting & dancing all over the map with their 'theory'.
They tweaked their computer model to 'fit the story' rather than doing an honest & independant blue-ribbon panel scientific investigation... (as demanded by fire engineering officials and victim's relatives groups).
They are deliberately lying when the claim "No Steel was Recovered from WTC 7
But when all their handwaving and postulating is examined under valid scientific evidence, it falls apart faster than the towers.
NIST's 'underlings' (FEMA, BPAT, ASCE, etc) were in charge of collecting the evidence.
Un-named 'officials'...
1 --- fought every attempt to preserve the physical evidence, and seemed to have some 'god-given' authority to violate New York law regarding the destruction of evidence...
Exactly WHO were these 'officials' ?
No... please tell me it wasn't the same 'officials' as 'them' who 'cooked' false evidence to start a war with a foreign soveriegn nation (or two)? These are not the same 'law-breakers' who said "screw the Constitiution... we don't NEED lawful authority to 'tap' private calls within US borders"... ???
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Reply by adoucette Why SHOULD we rebut this? It is NOT NISTs Contention that the primary cause of the collapse was failure of the central columns due to heating. Those remaining (~75%) were weakened, maybe 20 -25% by the heating, but the failure initially began with the failure of the perimeter columns. That Turbonium post is utter BS, as NIST in its final report states that it only analyzed 1% of core columns from the fire zone and 3% of perimeter columns. You know it would REALLY help if you ACTUALLY READ the final NIST report. Arthur |
Uhhhhh, no Arthur... the Turbonium post is not BS at all.
It is totally based upon an in depth (contextual) analysis of what NIST is actually saying.
I keep going over these 'final' draft for public discussion 'reports'...
and once I figure out what they are trying to say in one report, they change it... just like they had to; over the Kevin Ryan public letter to Shyham {sp}.
They have been twisting & dancing all over the map with their 'theory'.
They tweaked their computer model to 'fit the story' rather than doing an honest & independant blue-ribbon panel scientific investigation... (as demanded by fire engineering officials and victim's relatives groups).
They are deliberately lying when the claim "No Steel was Recovered from WTC 7
But when all their handwaving and postulating is examined under valid scientific evidence, it falls apart faster than the towers.
NIST's 'underlings' (FEMA, BPAT, ASCE, etc) were in charge of collecting the evidence.
Un-named 'officials'...
1 --- fought every attempt to preserve the physical evidence, and seemed to have some 'god-given' authority to violate New York law regarding the destruction of evidence...
Exactly WHO were these 'officials' ?
No... please tell me it wasn't the same 'officials' as 'them' who 'cooked' false evidence to start a war with a foreign soveriegn nation (or two)? These are not the same 'law-breakers' who said "screw the Constitiution... we don't NEED lawful authority to 'tap' private calls within US borders"... ???
PENAL LAW 215.40(2)
TAMPERING WITH PHYSICAL EVIDENCE
(E Felony)
(Destroying Evidence)
http://www.nycourts.gov/cji/3-PenalLaw/215/art215hp.htm
Regarding the above, 'Turbonium' notes...
QUOTE
You may argue that it was not a deliberate removal of evidence from a crime scene. From the law linked above, three elements must be proven beyond reasonable doubt.. In summary, relating to the removal of WTC steel.....
1. That the defendant destroyed physical evidence.
2. That the defendant did destroy such evidence believing that it was to be used in an official proceeding, or prospective official proceeding.
3. That the defendand did so to prevent such use.
Point 1 is a given. Points 2 and 3 are quite possible to prove as well, , in light of the actions by groups protesting the removal while it was still occurring. One such group was the one organized by Fire Engineering's Bill Manning, linked below...
http://fe.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Dis...ION_ID=25&ARTIC LE_ID=130026
These were calls and emails made by many fire investigators and private individuals to local, state and federal officials to demand a stop to the removal of the crime scene evidence. So the people involved were well aware that this was removal/destruction of evidence they were conducting. And they continued to destroy the evidence despite this knowledge.
Even before the protests began, there may be enough evidence unearthed that those involved. If those responsible for directing this activity have in the past not followed this procedure, it can quite likely be shown that this was a deliberate breach of standard procedure.
&
2 --- did everything in their power to interfere with the examination & collection process of this forensic evidence.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
You may argue that it was not a deliberate removal of evidence from a crime scene. From the law linked above, three elements must be proven beyond reasonable doubt.. In summary, relating to the removal of WTC steel..... 1. That the defendant destroyed physical evidence. 2. That the defendant did destroy such evidence believing that it was to be used in an official proceeding, or prospective official proceeding. 3. That the defendand did so to prevent such use. Point 1 is a given. Points 2 and 3 are quite possible to prove as well, , in light of the actions by groups protesting the removal while it was still occurring. One such group was the one organized by Fire Engineering's Bill Manning, linked below... http://fe.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Dis...ION_ID=25&ARTIC LE_ID=130026 These were calls and emails made by many fire investigators and private individuals to local, state and federal officials to demand a stop to the removal of the crime scene evidence. So the people involved were well aware that this was removal/destruction of evidence they were conducting. And they continued to destroy the evidence despite this knowledge. Even before the protests began, there may be enough evidence unearthed that those involved. If those responsible for directing this activity have in the past not followed this procedure, it can quite likely be shown that this was a deliberate breach of standard procedure. |
&
2 --- did everything in their power to interfere with the examination & collection process of this forensic evidence.
House Committee on Science
March 6, 2002
COMMITTEE CALLS FOR BROADER WORLD TRADE CENTER INVESTIGATION
http://www.house.gov/science/press/107/107-175.htm
A fuller account of these proceedings can be found here...
QUOTE
107 th Congress
Report
House of Representatives{/b]
c 99-006 2d Session
[b]107-530
NATIONAL CONSTRUCTION SAFETY TEAM ACT
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpquery/T?&r...30&dbname=cp107
Gee, man... I'm Canadian ... do I have to tell you americans where to look?
From the above...
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
107 th Congress Report House of Representatives{/b] c 99-006 2d Session [b]107-530 NATIONAL CONSTRUCTION SAFETY TEAM ACT http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpquery/T?&r...30&dbname=cp107 |
Gee, man... I'm Canadian ... do I have to tell you americans where to look?
From the above...
The BPAT's lack of investigative powers led to problems gaining access to information it needed to complete its work. BPAT members had no authority to impound steel evidence after it was removed from the WTC site. This problem, coupled with the difficulty the team faced in gaining access to the site, led to the destruction of important pieces of steel evidence. In addition, because FEMA did not immediately intervene on behalf of the BPAT, building owners, designers, and insurers delayed the BPAT's access to pertinent building documents. For example, the BPAT did not receive the full set of blueprints until January 2002. The BPAT was also denied access to other information such as the tapes of 911 calls to the New York City Police Department and unaired high-quality video footage of the attack taken by the major television networks.
QUOTE
Funding limitations severely constrained the BPAT's ability to conduct a comprehensive investigation
I, myself, find it an odd 'community' you have in the USofA. Are you people ALL 'cultists' ???
The 'investigation' into a physics & engineering anomaly (which has never been seen prior to Sept 11 2001 or heard of since), is relegated to a mere 14 million dollar budget...
14 million is what you might spend on a little 150' yacht for these people!
http://www.foxxaero.com/indrad_031.html
NIST Quote: ... "Sorry, Folks... we run outa money to investigate this Miraculous Event.
This is NOT a 'BIG Deal'... (It's NOT like there is some sexual BJ that we are investigating here.
If it was 'that Big', we would have had 40 million to spend on it !"
Take off those rose-colored glasses, and see what is REALLY going on... or keep wearing them and pretending you have no clue...
...like the Nazi Train Engineers... (i see no evil... i hear no evil... i speak no evil... I'm just paid to get this train from point A to point B... If I pretend I don't know what my cargo is... I'll be fine).
adoucette,
I'm starting to feel pretty stupid myself for attempting to have a conversation with someone who has less intelligence than a rock, but here goes anyway.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN NO EVIDENCE OF CONTROL DEMOLITION???
Most of us saw the video clips over and over again of the towers crashing down in about 10 seconds from top to bottom, and that alone is proof that explosives were used, because it is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for the towers to collapse without the aid of explosives.
The pancake theory is not only a ridiculous lie from hell, but it defies ALL reason, logic and mathematics. It is impossible because of a little something called gravity and physics.
Think for once in your life. If the pancake theory really happened there would have a DELAY, you know RESISTANCE. As the top floors crashed onto the lower floors the RESISTANCE FACTOR would have at least DELAYED the rate of decent, not only is it mathematically impossible for the towers to have collapsed without resistance (unless explosives were used, but OBVIOUS)!
That's why we know you're lying, even as stupid as you are, even you couldn't possibly believe the pancake theory.
Next time you try to post something try thinking beforehand. Think about RESISTANCE. Think about heavy metal framing that was in the way of the collapse.
Of course on the other hand you wouldn't want the truth to get in the way of your posts.
I'm starting to feel pretty stupid myself for attempting to have a conversation with someone who has less intelligence than a rock, but here goes anyway.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN NO EVIDENCE OF CONTROL DEMOLITION???
Most of us saw the video clips over and over again of the towers crashing down in about 10 seconds from top to bottom, and that alone is proof that explosives were used, because it is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for the towers to collapse without the aid of explosives.
The pancake theory is not only a ridiculous lie from hell, but it defies ALL reason, logic and mathematics. It is impossible because of a little something called gravity and physics.
Think for once in your life. If the pancake theory really happened there would have a DELAY, you know RESISTANCE. As the top floors crashed onto the lower floors the RESISTANCE FACTOR would have at least DELAYED the rate of decent, not only is it mathematically impossible for the towers to have collapsed without resistance (unless explosives were used, but OBVIOUS)!
That's why we know you're lying, even as stupid as you are, even you couldn't possibly believe the pancake theory.
Next time you try to post something try thinking beforehand. Think about RESISTANCE. Think about heavy metal framing that was in the way of the collapse.
Of course on the other hand you wouldn't want the truth to get in the way of your posts.
Here is the interview which I'm sure you know about...
"I remember getting a call from the Fire Department commander, telling me they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, you know, 'We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is just pull it.' And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse."
-Fact which is undisputed by either side, he was talking to the fire commander
-Fact which is undisputed by either side, both are not in the demolition business
"Silverstein's spokesperson, Mr. McQuillan, later clarified:
"In the afternoon of September 11, Mr. Silverstein spoke to the Fire Department Commander on site at Seven World Trade Center. The Commander told Mr. Silverstein that there were several firefighters in the building working to contain the fires. Mr. Silverstein expressed his view that the most important thing was to protect the safety of those firefighters, including, if necessary, to have them withdraw from the building."
He could be lying right? But here is the corroborating evidence...
"They told us to get out of there because they were worried about 7 World Trade Center, which is right behind it, coming down. We were up on the upper floors of the Verizon building looking at it. You could just see the whole bottom corner of the building was gone. We could look right out over to where the Trade Centers were because we were that high up. Looking over the smaller buildings. I just remember it was tremendous, tremendous fires going on. Finally they pulled us out. They said all right, get out of that building because that 7, they were really worried about. They pulled us out of there and then they regrouped everybody on Vesey Street, between the water and West Street. They put everybody back in there. Finally it did come down. From there - this is much later on in the day, because every day we were so worried about that building we didn't really want to get people close. They were trying to limit the amount of people that were in there. Finally it did come down." - Richard Banaciski
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyreg...ski_Richard.txt
Here is more evidence they pulled the teams out waiting for a normal collapse from fire...
"The most important operational decision to be made that afternoon was the collapse (Of the WTC towers) had damaged 7 World Trade Center, which is about a 50 story building, at Vesey between West Broadway and Washington Street. It had very heavy fire on many floors and I ordered the evacuation of an area sufficient around to protect our members, so we had to give up some rescue operations that were going on at the time and back the people away far enough so that if 7 World Trade did collapse, we [wouldn't] lose any more people. We continued to operate on what we could from that distance and approximately an hour and a half after that order was [given], at 5:30 in the afternoon, World Trade Center collapsed completely" - Daniel Nigro, Chief of Department
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyreg...igro_Daniel.txt
"Early on, there was concern that 7 World Trade Center might have been both impacted by the collapsing tower and had several fires in it and there was a concern that it might collapse. So we instructed that a collapse area -- (Q. A collapse zone?) -- Yeah -- be set up and maintained so that when the expected collapse of 7 happened, we wouldn't have people working in it. There was considerable discussion with Con Ed regarding the substation in that building and the feeders and the oil coolants and so on. And their concern was of the type of fire we might have when it collapsed." - Chief Cruthers
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyreg...IC/Cruthers.txt
"Then we found out, I guess around 3:00 [o'clock], that they thought 7 was going to collapse. So, of course, [we've] got guys all in this pile over here and the main concern was get everybody out, and I guess it took us over an hour and a half, two hours to get everybody out of there. (Q. Initially when you were there, you had said you heard a few Maydays?) Oh, yes. We had Maydays like crazy.... The heat must have been tremendous. There was so much [expletive] fire there. This whole pile was burning like crazy. Just the heat and the smoke from all the other buildings on fire, you [couldn't] see anything. So it took us a while and we ended up backing everybody out, and [that's] when 7 collapsed.... Basically, we fell back for 7 to collapse, and then we waited a while and it got a lot more organized, I would guess." - Lieutenant William Ryan
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyreg...yan_William.txt
What we have for sure...
Silverstein is not a demolition expert and was talking to a fire fighter and not a demolition expert. Why would he use the word "Pull" to describe the demolition to a fire fighter?
Silverstein denies "Pull" means "Controlled demolition". He said it means "Pull" the teams out of the building.
Silverstein did not make the decision to "Pull". (Whatever that means) "they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse"
Another fire fighter used "Pull" to describe the decision made to get him out of the building.
Maybe none of these things by themselves mean anything but together it means there is no case. The person who said "Pull" and started this cascade later clarified. Fireman use the word "Pull" to describe getting out of a building and the person who made the order was not Silverstein according to the same first interview.
It means "PULL" the teams out!
Thank you for using common sense. Have a nice day...
"I remember getting a call from the Fire Department commander, telling me they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, you know, 'We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is just pull it.' And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse."
-Fact which is undisputed by either side, he was talking to the fire commander
-Fact which is undisputed by either side, both are not in the demolition business
"Silverstein's spokesperson, Mr. McQuillan, later clarified:
"In the afternoon of September 11, Mr. Silverstein spoke to the Fire Department Commander on site at Seven World Trade Center. The Commander told Mr. Silverstein that there were several firefighters in the building working to contain the fires. Mr. Silverstein expressed his view that the most important thing was to protect the safety of those firefighters, including, if necessary, to have them withdraw from the building."
He could be lying right? But here is the corroborating evidence...
"They told us to get out of there because they were worried about 7 World Trade Center, which is right behind it, coming down. We were up on the upper floors of the Verizon building looking at it. You could just see the whole bottom corner of the building was gone. We could look right out over to where the Trade Centers were because we were that high up. Looking over the smaller buildings. I just remember it was tremendous, tremendous fires going on. Finally they pulled us out. They said all right, get out of that building because that 7, they were really worried about. They pulled us out of there and then they regrouped everybody on Vesey Street, between the water and West Street. They put everybody back in there. Finally it did come down. From there - this is much later on in the day, because every day we were so worried about that building we didn't really want to get people close. They were trying to limit the amount of people that were in there. Finally it did come down." - Richard Banaciski
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyreg...ski_Richard.txt
Here is more evidence they pulled the teams out waiting for a normal collapse from fire...
"The most important operational decision to be made that afternoon was the collapse (Of the WTC towers) had damaged 7 World Trade Center, which is about a 50 story building, at Vesey between West Broadway and Washington Street. It had very heavy fire on many floors and I ordered the evacuation of an area sufficient around to protect our members, so we had to give up some rescue operations that were going on at the time and back the people away far enough so that if 7 World Trade did collapse, we [wouldn't] lose any more people. We continued to operate on what we could from that distance and approximately an hour and a half after that order was [given], at 5:30 in the afternoon, World Trade Center collapsed completely" - Daniel Nigro, Chief of Department
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyreg...igro_Daniel.txt
"Early on, there was concern that 7 World Trade Center might have been both impacted by the collapsing tower and had several fires in it and there was a concern that it might collapse. So we instructed that a collapse area -- (Q. A collapse zone?) -- Yeah -- be set up and maintained so that when the expected collapse of 7 happened, we wouldn't have people working in it. There was considerable discussion with Con Ed regarding the substation in that building and the feeders and the oil coolants and so on. And their concern was of the type of fire we might have when it collapsed." - Chief Cruthers
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyreg...IC/Cruthers.txt
"Then we found out, I guess around 3:00 [o'clock], that they thought 7 was going to collapse. So, of course, [we've] got guys all in this pile over here and the main concern was get everybody out, and I guess it took us over an hour and a half, two hours to get everybody out of there. (Q. Initially when you were there, you had said you heard a few Maydays?) Oh, yes. We had Maydays like crazy.... The heat must have been tremendous. There was so much [expletive] fire there. This whole pile was burning like crazy. Just the heat and the smoke from all the other buildings on fire, you [couldn't] see anything. So it took us a while and we ended up backing everybody out, and [that's] when 7 collapsed.... Basically, we fell back for 7 to collapse, and then we waited a while and it got a lot more organized, I would guess." - Lieutenant William Ryan
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyreg...yan_William.txt
What we have for sure...
Silverstein is not a demolition expert and was talking to a fire fighter and not a demolition expert. Why would he use the word "Pull" to describe the demolition to a fire fighter?
Silverstein denies "Pull" means "Controlled demolition". He said it means "Pull" the teams out of the building.
Silverstein did not make the decision to "Pull". (Whatever that means) "they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse"
Another fire fighter used "Pull" to describe the decision made to get him out of the building.
Maybe none of these things by themselves mean anything but together it means there is no case. The person who said "Pull" and started this cascade later clarified. Fireman use the word "Pull" to describe getting out of a building and the person who made the order was not Silverstein according to the same first interview.
It means "PULL" the teams out!
Thank you for using common sense. Have a nice day...
QUOTE (steve1957+Dec 28 2005, 01:02 AM)
adoucette,
My poor misguided friend, at least your very consistent about being WRONG in your statements.
I'll shed a little light on the OJ case.
Number one, the prosecution did a fine job, they proved WELL beyond a reasonable doubt that OJ did the crime. Of course there were little things they could have done better, but LET'S GET REAL HERE, who in their RIGHT MIND, after watching the OJ trial thought he was innocent???
The prosecution did prove their case, but people with no ability to think for themselves can only parrot what some ignoramus talking heads spew out of their mouths.
Now regarding the gloves, you're terribly wrong again. I saw that with my own eyes, and the gloves clearly fit as best they could, CONSIDERING THE FACT THAT HE WAS WEARING LATEX GLOVES UNDERNEATH.
And even with the latex gloves underneath it was obvious that all OJ had to do was pull on the gloves a little tighter to give them the smug tight fit they were intended for.
In fact when OJ tried the gloves on, it was obvious they did fit, yet he purposely PRETENDED they did not, which made him look more guilty.
But ignoramuses who can't see beyond the other parrots aren't able to accept the fact that an injustice was done and that our court systems sometimes FAIL. In the case of OJ, the jury was responsible for the injustice. The jury was wrong, they were probably threatened, bribed and who knows what else, but it had nothing to do with the prosecution.
This just goes to show you how AIR HEADS can't put the blame where it belongs, but always put it in the wrong place.
Just like 9/11. Instead of blaming Bush for sitting in that classroom for 7 straight minutes, which that alone should be an impeachable offense, as he gave the other planes plenty of time to do their thing.
And instead of blaming NORAD, and the FAA for FAILING miserably to take out the hijacked planes, of which they had at least 20 minutes advance warning, instead the airheads blame the MAGICIAN IN THE CAVE.
I shouldn't be so mean to ignorant airheads like adoucette, I should be more understanding of their mental deficit, so please excuse my harshness, but mindless ignorance and deception has a way of getting under my skin.
How's your reading comprehension?
We must have watched a different trial. The "dream team" had their way with the prosecution.
Its not "who thought he was innocent" that counts, its who thought he was Guilty.
Surprisingly there is a difference. You are presumed innocent, you have to PROVE guilt.
Now I watched much of the trial, certainly not all of it, and I was convinced he was guilty, but as I said, I talked to a number of people who had doubt, and it was centered around the POSSIBILITY that OJ had been framed. Ask around, particularly in the Black community, and see how many people were troubled by Furman's taking the 5th. The defense only needed one holdout, and with the jury that was impaneled, that wasn't going to be a stretch. Like I said, I knew why Furman did it, he was facing his own trial on a racial issue, and I know that if he takes the 5th on any question he has to take them on ALL the questions. You would be surprised how many people don't know the latter requirement, and the defense played it like a well tuned violin.
As to the NORAD issue. NORAD's role in a hijacking at the time was not to take out any plane, only to provide escort service, and then only if other priorities permitted. There was no way to stop the first two planes. It is slightly possible to have stopped the third plane, but also highly unlikely to be able to do so. Our military is designed to fight enemy aircraft. NORAD had NO WAY to pick out the hijacked aircraft that day without FAA guidance and the FAA had no way to talk to the fighter planes directly.
My presumption on Bush is that he waited until the SS could decide that it was safe to bring him out.
Arthur
My poor misguided friend, at least your very consistent about being WRONG in your statements.
I'll shed a little light on the OJ case.
Number one, the prosecution did a fine job, they proved WELL beyond a reasonable doubt that OJ did the crime. Of course there were little things they could have done better, but LET'S GET REAL HERE, who in their RIGHT MIND, after watching the OJ trial thought he was innocent???
The prosecution did prove their case, but people with no ability to think for themselves can only parrot what some ignoramus talking heads spew out of their mouths.
Now regarding the gloves, you're terribly wrong again. I saw that with my own eyes, and the gloves clearly fit as best they could, CONSIDERING THE FACT THAT HE WAS WEARING LATEX GLOVES UNDERNEATH.
And even with the latex gloves underneath it was obvious that all OJ had to do was pull on the gloves a little tighter to give them the smug tight fit they were intended for.
In fact when OJ tried the gloves on, it was obvious they did fit, yet he purposely PRETENDED they did not, which made him look more guilty.
But ignoramuses who can't see beyond the other parrots aren't able to accept the fact that an injustice was done and that our court systems sometimes FAIL. In the case of OJ, the jury was responsible for the injustice. The jury was wrong, they were probably threatened, bribed and who knows what else, but it had nothing to do with the prosecution.
This just goes to show you how AIR HEADS can't put the blame where it belongs, but always put it in the wrong place.
Just like 9/11. Instead of blaming Bush for sitting in that classroom for 7 straight minutes, which that alone should be an impeachable offense, as he gave the other planes plenty of time to do their thing.
And instead of blaming NORAD, and the FAA for FAILING miserably to take out the hijacked planes, of which they had at least 20 minutes advance warning, instead the airheads blame the MAGICIAN IN THE CAVE.
I shouldn't be so mean to ignorant airheads like adoucette, I should be more understanding of their mental deficit, so please excuse my harshness, but mindless ignorance and deception has a way of getting under my skin.
How's your reading comprehension?
QUOTE
In the OJ trial, the prosecution was totally inept. Absolutely horrible handling of evidence, particularly the DNA testing, allowing OJ to "try" to put on the gloves OVER LATEX GLOVES which led to the classic: "If it don't fit you must acquit" and then probably the final straw was when Mark Furman "took the 5th".
I know that wasn't relevant to OJ's guilt, but having talked to a lot of people about it at the time, this action, coupled with his other somewhat dubious actions, led a number of people to think there was a chance that Furman was trying to Frame OJ.
I don't believe that, but it seems it was this kind of "doubt" that helped to generate the verdict.
So I take the jury's verdict as not that OJ was innocent, but that the prosecution did a piss poor job in proving his guilt.
I know that wasn't relevant to OJ's guilt, but having talked to a lot of people about it at the time, this action, coupled with his other somewhat dubious actions, led a number of people to think there was a chance that Furman was trying to Frame OJ.
I don't believe that, but it seems it was this kind of "doubt" that helped to generate the verdict.
So I take the jury's verdict as not that OJ was innocent, but that the prosecution did a piss poor job in proving his guilt.
We must have watched a different trial. The "dream team" had their way with the prosecution.
Its not "who thought he was innocent" that counts, its who thought he was Guilty.
Surprisingly there is a difference. You are presumed innocent, you have to PROVE guilt.
Now I watched much of the trial, certainly not all of it, and I was convinced he was guilty, but as I said, I talked to a number of people who had doubt, and it was centered around the POSSIBILITY that OJ had been framed. Ask around, particularly in the Black community, and see how many people were troubled by Furman's taking the 5th. The defense only needed one holdout, and with the jury that was impaneled, that wasn't going to be a stretch. Like I said, I knew why Furman did it, he was facing his own trial on a racial issue, and I know that if he takes the 5th on any question he has to take them on ALL the questions. You would be surprised how many people don't know the latter requirement, and the defense played it like a well tuned violin.
As to the NORAD issue. NORAD's role in a hijacking at the time was not to take out any plane, only to provide escort service, and then only if other priorities permitted. There was no way to stop the first two planes. It is slightly possible to have stopped the third plane, but also highly unlikely to be able to do so. Our military is designed to fight enemy aircraft. NORAD had NO WAY to pick out the hijacked aircraft that day without FAA guidance and the FAA had no way to talk to the fighter planes directly.
My presumption on Bush is that he waited until the SS could decide that it was safe to bring him out.
Arthur
QUOTE (steve1957+Dec 28 2005, 01:37 AM)
adoucette,
I'm starting to feel pretty stupid myself for attempting to have a conversation with someone who has less intelligence than a rock, but here goes anyway.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN NO EVIDENCE OF CONTROL DEMOLITION???
Most of us saw the video clips over and over again of the towers crashing down in about 10 seconds from top to bottom, and that alone is proof that explosives were used, because it is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for the towers to collapse without the aid of explosives.
The pancake theory is not only a ridiculous lie from hell, but it defies ALL reason, logic and mathematics. It is impossible because of a little something called gravity and physics.
Think for once in your life. If the pancake theory really happened there would have a DELAY, you know RESISTANCE. As the top floors crashed onto the lower floors the RESISTANCE FACTOR would have at least DELAYED the rate of decent, not only is it mathematically impossible for the towers to have collapsed without resistance (unless explosives were used, but OBVIOUS)!
That's why we know you're lying, even as stupid as you are, even you couldn't possibly believe the pancake theory.
Next time you try to post something try thinking beforehand. Think about RESISTANCE. Think about heavy metal framing that was in the way of the collapse.
Of course on the other hand you wouldn't want the truth to get in the way of your posts.
I take it you haven't read this thread.
There is no way to get an accurate time as the final moments were obscured with dust clouds. So when you say IT WAS ABOUT 10 Seconds that means you have PROOF of nothing.
Second, a lot of effort has been expended to show that, yes, even accounting for the resistance to the fall, they could have fallen in the WINDOW of time available.
The seismic evidence on the other hand is conclusive that there were NO explosions.
The TOP DOWN collapse of the towers can not be explained by explosives.
No reasonable method of installing and triggering the explosives has been shown to have been possible.
No visible evidence of column shattering high explosives has been shown, either in the videos of the collapse or in the material from the site.
You can SAY that it was PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE over and over again, but that, my friend is just hand waving and proof of nothing.
Arthur
I'm starting to feel pretty stupid myself for attempting to have a conversation with someone who has less intelligence than a rock, but here goes anyway.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN NO EVIDENCE OF CONTROL DEMOLITION???
Most of us saw the video clips over and over again of the towers crashing down in about 10 seconds from top to bottom, and that alone is proof that explosives were used, because it is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for the towers to collapse without the aid of explosives.
The pancake theory is not only a ridiculous lie from hell, but it defies ALL reason, logic and mathematics. It is impossible because of a little something called gravity and physics.
Think for once in your life. If the pancake theory really happened there would have a DELAY, you know RESISTANCE. As the top floors crashed onto the lower floors the RESISTANCE FACTOR would have at least DELAYED the rate of decent, not only is it mathematically impossible for the towers to have collapsed without resistance (unless explosives were used, but OBVIOUS)!
That's why we know you're lying, even as stupid as you are, even you couldn't possibly believe the pancake theory.
Next time you try to post something try thinking beforehand. Think about RESISTANCE. Think about heavy metal framing that was in the way of the collapse.
Of course on the other hand you wouldn't want the truth to get in the way of your posts.
I take it you haven't read this thread.
There is no way to get an accurate time as the final moments were obscured with dust clouds. So when you say IT WAS ABOUT 10 Seconds that means you have PROOF of nothing.
Second, a lot of effort has been expended to show that, yes, even accounting for the resistance to the fall, they could have fallen in the WINDOW of time available.
The seismic evidence on the other hand is conclusive that there were NO explosions.
The TOP DOWN collapse of the towers can not be explained by explosives.
No reasonable method of installing and triggering the explosives has been shown to have been possible.
No visible evidence of column shattering high explosives has been shown, either in the videos of the collapse or in the material from the site.
You can SAY that it was PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE over and over again, but that, my friend is just hand waving and proof of nothing.
Arthur
adoucette,
OK, so there is a tiny little drop of common sense in there somewhere, as you at least are conscious of the overwhelming evidence that proved well beyond a reasonable doubt that he was guilty.
Now Rome wasn't built in a day, so I can't expect too much brain activity on your part, so I'll try to go as slow as I can and make this very simple. But first, put on your thinking cap and try to use some of that material in between your ears.
Since you felt that OJ was guilty, based upon the trial that you observed, but all too many people from the black community felt he was framed, then what does that tell you regarding the truth of the matter?
Let me ask you this, do you think the actual truth of the matter regarding whether OJ did it or did not do it changes based upon who's judging it, or does the actual truth in fact not change? Come on now think hard, I know you can do it.
Here's a clue, either OJ did it or did not do it. No matter what black people think or white, the truth is the truth. And the truth does not change.
Now when it comes to 9/11 it's a similar thing in that whatever happened, happened, no matter what you or I or anyone thinks. SOMETHING HAPPENED that caused the towers to collapse no matter how we feel, or which politician we like or hate etc.
If you really love bush, but it turns out that he was part of a plan to do this crime, then will your love for him change the facts? No, the truth does not change no matter how you might feel.
Now the whites are just as bad as the blacks in the OJ case, such as the KKK killers who were acquitted time and time again for murdering black people, but let's get real here.
If a black guy was found in a KKK community, hanging from a tree, with his hands tied behind his back, he was shot in the back of the head 4 times no less, with a 45 caliber, and he was knifed in the heart 20 times, do you think it was suicide?
Even if a white jury and judge rules suicide does that really change what happened?
You see my boy, if your really interested in the truth you have to look at the evidence and detach yourself from the love of bush or the love of certain politicians or the love of some fairy tales.
Black people let their biases blind them in the OJ case, just as KKK members did in cases that were ruled suicide because of bias and fear, etc.
And in the case of 9/11 we have the same situation. IT'S THE EVIDENCE MAN. And the evidence, the proof is so overwhelming it's similar to the black man who they say committed suicide when the facts say otherwise.
By the way, whoever is using the handle common sense is committing fraud of the worse sort, because his name is highly misleading, because he's not using any at all when trying to analyze the Larry Silverstein statements.
I mean is this ignoramus called "common sense" actually trying to imply that building 7 collapsed without control demolition??? That building only had a few small fires in it. So where in the heck is the common sense in that?
I think the guy "common sense" should change is handle to "fantasy land" or something along those lines
OK, so there is a tiny little drop of common sense in there somewhere, as you at least are conscious of the overwhelming evidence that proved well beyond a reasonable doubt that he was guilty.
Now Rome wasn't built in a day, so I can't expect too much brain activity on your part, so I'll try to go as slow as I can and make this very simple. But first, put on your thinking cap and try to use some of that material in between your ears.
Since you felt that OJ was guilty, based upon the trial that you observed, but all too many people from the black community felt he was framed, then what does that tell you regarding the truth of the matter?
Let me ask you this, do you think the actual truth of the matter regarding whether OJ did it or did not do it changes based upon who's judging it, or does the actual truth in fact not change? Come on now think hard, I know you can do it.
Here's a clue, either OJ did it or did not do it. No matter what black people think or white, the truth is the truth. And the truth does not change.
Now when it comes to 9/11 it's a similar thing in that whatever happened, happened, no matter what you or I or anyone thinks. SOMETHING HAPPENED that caused the towers to collapse no matter how we feel, or which politician we like or hate etc.
If you really love bush, but it turns out that he was part of a plan to do this crime, then will your love for him change the facts? No, the truth does not change no matter how you might feel.
Now the whites are just as bad as the blacks in the OJ case, such as the KKK killers who were acquitted time and time again for murdering black people, but let's get real here.
If a black guy was found in a KKK community, hanging from a tree, with his hands tied behind his back, he was shot in the back of the head 4 times no less, with a 45 caliber, and he was knifed in the heart 20 times, do you think it was suicide?
Even if a white jury and judge rules suicide does that really change what happened?
You see my boy, if your really interested in the truth you have to look at the evidence and detach yourself from the love of bush or the love of certain politicians or the love of some fairy tales.
Black people let their biases blind them in the OJ case, just as KKK members did in cases that were ruled suicide because of bias and fear, etc.
And in the case of 9/11 we have the same situation. IT'S THE EVIDENCE MAN. And the evidence, the proof is so overwhelming it's similar to the black man who they say committed suicide when the facts say otherwise.
By the way, whoever is using the handle common sense is committing fraud of the worse sort, because his name is highly misleading, because he's not using any at all when trying to analyze the Larry Silverstein statements.
I mean is this ignoramus called "common sense" actually trying to imply that building 7 collapsed without control demolition??? That building only had a few small fires in it. So where in the heck is the common sense in that?
I think the guy "common sense" should change is handle to "fantasy land" or something along those lines
Only Rove can think of a conspiracy theory so stupid yet people believe it. Bush is now loved more people than Jesus! Not only the Neo-Cons, Not only the Administration but people who would have had family killed by this mass murder. Lets use some common sense for a moment to see all the people involved...
-The NYC Fire fighters who know more about building collapses than most if not all of you. It's their LIFE to know. Literally! Yet they don't call for an investigation into the MASS MURDER of over 300 of their brothers... Why? Because the liberal NYC firefighters just LOOVES BUSH. They would gladly give their lives for him. Bush is Jesus... (The twisting of these peoples statements for donations and DVD sales sickens me.)
-The NYC Police department who lost over 20 lives. They didn't ask for an investigation. They died for a good cause... Bush is Jesus...
-All the people in the pentagon don't want an investigation. Many who are liberal and centrist would gladly have a 757/missile (Heh!) rammed up their *** for Bush. They did or said nothing while people supposedly truck in airplane parts to cover the crime. Remember, Bush is Jesus.
-The more than 1,600 widows and widowers of 9/11 who rather have investigations of the decisions which lead to the terrorist getting away with this. They don't want to waste time investigating the mass murder of their loved ones. These people have a track record of helping Bush don't they. Why? Well isn't Bush Jesus?
-The media (This one I almost believe) who doesn't follow up on the biggest mass murder and conspiracy in American history. It seems no one want a Nobel prize for journalism. Can't say anything bad about Jesus!
-Popular Mechanics who debunked these sites is also helping Bush commit the biggest mass murder in history. I hear they're changing the name to "Popular Bible" so they can preach the word of Bush.
-Everyone in the NIST who think Bush is so cool they would cover up something this huge for him. Like the largest mass murder in US history.
-EVERY STRUCTUAL ENGINEER IN THE WORLD who doesn't write a paper for a mainstream peer reviewed journal saying the towers were brought down. If you laymen can prove things just by looking at videos and reading interviews out of context then all those structural engineers MUST be working for Bush right?
I'm telling you, Bush is JESUS!
Keep sucking on Roves tit.
Thank you for using common sense, have a nice day
-The NYC Fire fighters who know more about building collapses than most if not all of you. It's their LIFE to know. Literally! Yet they don't call for an investigation into the MASS MURDER of over 300 of their brothers... Why? Because the liberal NYC firefighters just LOOVES BUSH. They would gladly give their lives for him. Bush is Jesus... (The twisting of these peoples statements for donations and DVD sales sickens me.)
-The NYC Police department who lost over 20 lives. They didn't ask for an investigation. They died for a good cause... Bush is Jesus...
-All the people in the pentagon don't want an investigation. Many who are liberal and centrist would gladly have a 757/missile (Heh!) rammed up their *** for Bush. They did or said nothing while people supposedly truck in airplane parts to cover the crime. Remember, Bush is Jesus.
-The more than 1,600 widows and widowers of 9/11 who rather have investigations of the decisions which lead to the terrorist getting away with this. They don't want to waste time investigating the mass murder of their loved ones. These people have a track record of helping Bush don't they. Why? Well isn't Bush Jesus?
-The media (This one I almost believe) who doesn't follow up on the biggest mass murder and conspiracy in American history. It seems no one want a Nobel prize for journalism. Can't say anything bad about Jesus!
-Popular Mechanics who debunked these sites is also helping Bush commit the biggest mass murder in history. I hear they're changing the name to "Popular Bible" so they can preach the word of Bush.
-Everyone in the NIST who think Bush is so cool they would cover up something this huge for him. Like the largest mass murder in US history.
-EVERY STRUCTUAL ENGINEER IN THE WORLD who doesn't write a paper for a mainstream peer reviewed journal saying the towers were brought down. If you laymen can prove things just by looking at videos and reading interviews out of context then all those structural engineers MUST be working for Bush right?
I'm telling you, Bush is JESUS!
Keep sucking on Roves tit.
Thank you for using common sense, have a nice day
adoucette,
You gotta stop that lying about the proof. In truth and reality THERE IS NO DEBATE AT ALL. IT IS A PROVEN FACT that the towers were IMPLODED! And there is no way out of this. It's not my words that prove it, but the laws of physics, gravity and reality.
Regarding the 10 seconds it took to collapse from top to bottom, you lie again, there is more proof of that than of your birth. That's on video clip after video clip, all you have to do is WATCH IT. You might argue that it was perhaps 11 seconds or who knows even 12, but that's irrelevant, because if in fact the pancake theory were to work the resistant factor would delay the fall by at least one second per floor, multiply 110 floors by 1 second and guess how long it would have taken? I'll give you hint, it's more than 10 seconds, or even 20 seconds.
Remember the news? Remember how fast the towers collapsed?
Well just in case you forgot there are many video clips in blockbuster and on the net. Here's one that will send you and all your parrots running for cover on...
This is all the proof anyone needs http://www.iwilltryit.com/criminals.htm
But here is more proof that bombs were planted, firemen, police and hundreds of witnesses, and oh yes, even fox news originally reported that BOMBS WENT OFF before the towers collapsed http://www.iwilltryit.com/bombson911_1.htm
here's more proof http://www.iwilltryit.com/walter1.htm
I could go on and on, but here's a menu page where you can select from about 50 other pages and videos http://www.iwilltryit.com/menu.htm
Let's face it, the jig is up. the cats outta the bag and there's no where to run. You're like the king with no clothes on trying to convince people your not naked, but we can see, so you better act quickly and cover yourself with some truth and knowledge for a change.
You gotta stop that lying about the proof. In truth and reality THERE IS NO DEBATE AT ALL. IT IS A PROVEN FACT that the towers were IMPLODED! And there is no way out of this. It's not my words that prove it, but the laws of physics, gravity and reality.
Regarding the 10 seconds it took to collapse from top to bottom, you lie again, there is more proof of that than of your birth. That's on video clip after video clip, all you have to do is WATCH IT. You might argue that it was perhaps 11 seconds or who knows even 12, but that's irrelevant, because if in fact the pancake theory were to work the resistant factor would delay the fall by at least one second per floor, multiply 110 floors by 1 second and guess how long it would have taken? I'll give you hint, it's more than 10 seconds, or even 20 seconds.
Remember the news? Remember how fast the towers collapsed?
Well just in case you forgot there are many video clips in blockbuster and on the net. Here's one that will send you and all your parrots running for cover on...
This is all the proof anyone needs http://www.iwilltryit.com/criminals.htm
But here is more proof that bombs were planted, firemen, police and hundreds of witnesses, and oh yes, even fox news originally reported that BOMBS WENT OFF before the towers collapsed http://www.iwilltryit.com/bombson911_1.htm
here's more proof http://www.iwilltryit.com/walter1.htm
I could go on and on, but here's a menu page where you can select from about 50 other pages and videos http://www.iwilltryit.com/menu.htm
Let's face it, the jig is up. the cats outta the bag and there's no where to run. You're like the king with no clothes on trying to convince people your not naked, but we can see, so you better act quickly and cover yourself with some truth and knowledge for a change.
I, unlike adoucette saw the whole trial. until someone tells me how a drop of blood on one side of a sock can go completely through a human leg to the other I'll say J.O. was framed. Maybe he did it but he was FRAMED. More evidence came later when an investigation a few years later proved some people in the LAPD frame people on the regular. Comming from an inner city myself it doesn't suprise me in the least. That's why EVERYONE in the jury agreed the evidence they had was suspect at the time.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/lapd/bare.html
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/lapd/bare.html
Common Sense,
Yeah some people believe OJ was framed just like some people believe that chikens have lips, and they also believe the black guy who was shot in the back of the head 4 times and knifed in the heart 20 times committed suicide.
Some people believe in Santa Clause and the easter bunny, but other people prefer to use a little common sense and seek the truth.
Yeah LA cops and many others frame people all the time, no doubt, but to think OJ was framed is about as logical is UFO's attacking the WTC.
The good thing is you have a right to your opinion, no matter how crazy it is.
Yeah some people believe OJ was framed just like some people believe that chikens have lips, and they also believe the black guy who was shot in the back of the head 4 times and knifed in the heart 20 times committed suicide.
Some people believe in Santa Clause and the easter bunny, but other people prefer to use a little common sense and seek the truth.
Yeah LA cops and many others frame people all the time, no doubt, but to think OJ was framed is about as logical is UFO's attacking the WTC.
The good thing is you have a right to your opinion, no matter how crazy it is.
steve1957, Do yourself a favor and stop using bias web sites for your *cough*evidence*cough*. It's just a few of Roves college media major budies cutting and splicing and having some fun with you. Don't you get it! There are REAL crimes bing commited by this administration and they want you to waste energy on this non-sense so you don't turn your attention to their other hand. There are more REAL murders and torture happening in our name in Iraq. Murders and torture we have evidence of. Hell, we have PICTURES!!!
QUOTE (Common Sense+Dec 28 2005, 02:24 AM)
Only Rove can think of a conspiracy theory so stupid yet people believe it. Bush is now loved more people than Jesus! Not only the Neo-Cons, Not only the Administration but people who would have had family killed by this mass murder. Lets use some common sense for a moment to see all the people involved...
-The NYC Fire fighters who know more about building collapses than most if not all of you. It's their LIFE to know. Literally! Yet they don't call for an investigation into the MASS MURDER of over 300 of their brothers... Why? Because the liberal NYC firefighters just LOOVES BUSH. They would gladly give their lives for him. Bush is Jesus... (The twisting of these peoples statements for donations and DVD sales sickens me.) ... (Sound familiar?)
-The NYC Police department who lost over 20 lives. They didn't ask for an investigation. They died for a good cause... Bush is Jesus...
-All the people in the pentagon don't want an investigation. Many who are liberal and centrist would gladly have a 757/missile (Heh!) rammed up their *** for Bush. They did or said nothing while people supposedly truck in airplane parts to cover the crime. Remember, Bush is Jesus.
-The more than 1,600 widows and widowers of 9/11 who rather have investigations of the decisions which lead to the terrorist getting away with this. They don't want to waste time investigating the mass murder of their loved ones. These people have a track record of helping Bush don't they. Why? Well isn't Bush Jesus?
-The media (This one I almost believe) who doesn't follow up on the biggest mass murder and conspiracy in American history. It seems no one want a Nobel prize for journalism. Can't say anything bad about Jesus!
-Popular Mechanics who debunked these sites ( What 'sites' are those. Schneibster????... is also helping Bush commit the biggest mass murder in history. I hear they're changing the name to "Popular Bible" so they can preach the word of Bush.
-Everyone in the NIST who think Bush is so cool they would cover up something this huge for him. Like the largest mass murder in US history.
-EVERY STRUCTUAL ENGINEER IN THE WORLD who doesn't write a paper for a mainstream peer reviewed journal saying the towers were brought down. If you laymen can prove things just by looking at videos and reading interviews out of context then all those structural engineers MUST be working for Bush right?
I'm telling you, Bush is JESUS!
Keep sucking on Roves tit.
Thank you for using common sense, have a nice day
Ahhhh, yes... The Schniebster reappears as....
'Common Sense' !!!
I suspect it won't take long for 'Common Sense' to start referring to me as a 'Liar'

-The NYC Fire fighters who know more about building collapses than most if not all of you. It's their LIFE to know. Literally! Yet they don't call for an investigation into the MASS MURDER of over 300 of their brothers... Why? Because the liberal NYC firefighters just LOOVES BUSH. They would gladly give their lives for him. Bush is Jesus... (The twisting of these peoples statements for donations and DVD sales sickens me.) ... (Sound familiar?)
-The NYC Police department who lost over 20 lives. They didn't ask for an investigation. They died for a good cause... Bush is Jesus...
-All the people in the pentagon don't want an investigation. Many who are liberal and centrist would gladly have a 757/missile (Heh!) rammed up their *** for Bush. They did or said nothing while people supposedly truck in airplane parts to cover the crime. Remember, Bush is Jesus.
-The more than 1,600 widows and widowers of 9/11 who rather have investigations of the decisions which lead to the terrorist getting away with this. They don't want to waste time investigating the mass murder of their loved ones. These people have a track record of helping Bush don't they. Why? Well isn't Bush Jesus?
-The media (This one I almost believe) who doesn't follow up on the biggest mass murder and conspiracy in American history. It seems no one want a Nobel prize for journalism. Can't say anything bad about Jesus!
-Popular Mechanics who debunked these sites ( What 'sites' are those. Schneibster????... is also helping Bush commit the biggest mass murder in history. I hear they're changing the name to "Popular Bible" so they can preach the word of Bush.
-Everyone in the NIST who think Bush is so cool they would cover up something this huge for him. Like the largest mass murder in US history.
-EVERY STRUCTUAL ENGINEER IN THE WORLD who doesn't write a paper for a mainstream peer reviewed journal saying the towers were brought down. If you laymen can prove things just by looking at videos and reading interviews out of context then all those structural engineers MUST be working for Bush right?
I'm telling you, Bush is JESUS!
Keep sucking on Roves tit.
Thank you for using common sense, have a nice day
Ahhhh, yes... The Schniebster reappears as....
'Common Sense' !!!
I suspect it won't take long for 'Common Sense' to start referring to me as a 'Liar'
More on steel. From http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/eng99/eng99164.htm
(emphasis mine)
Question - I have a question about steel properties. Steel is
generally defined by tensile strength. Is the compressive capacity the
same as the tensile capacity because steel is a homogeneous substance?
-----------------------------------------------
Steel is more or less a linear elastic material. Unlike concrete, which is
much weaker in tension than in compression, steel theoretically responds the
same way in either tension or compression. However, with enough applied
force, steel and other metals will cease to behave elastically and begin to
behave plastically. When a material is linearly elastic, its deformation,
or strain, will be directly proportional to the applied force and it will
return to its original shape when the force is removed. A plastic material,
on the other hand, will permanently deform without breaking (think of taffy
or perhaps the stringiness of melted mozzarella cheese on a pizza).
In real life, of course, there is no such thing as a perfectly elastic or
plastic material. In the case of steel, structural engineers are concerned
about the tensile strength in terms of both the ultimate strength and the
yield strength. When a specimen reaches its yield strength, it will begin
to stretch and transition from elastic to plastic behavior. As more force
is applied, the steel will reach its ultimate tensile strength and break.
Structural engineers take advantage of this property in their designs. In
an extreme event, such as an earthquake or major structural failure, this
plastic phase is useful because it allows the structure to sag and absorb
extra loads. If steel is too brittle, it will shatter instead of
stretching, possibly causing the structure to come crashing down. In either
case, the structure is ruined, but the plastic behavior of the steel allows
time for escape.
In compression, steel can still behave plastically. Think about how a coin
looks when it is run over by a train. This property allows metals such as
steel to be pressed into things like car bodies. However, in some
compressive situations, shear forces can also develop inside the specimen.
While steel behaves equally under tension and compression, depending on the
type of steel, it can be substantially weaker under shearing loads. In this
case, the steel may suffer a shear failure before reaching an ultimate
compressive strength.
Andy Johnson
This means that my calculation of (compressive) stress ala BZ should be correct, using "THE" Young's Modulus, at least until it ain't! (I.e., get to inelastic deformation). Also, my intuition about buckling steel "absorbing" energy as it deforms may be substantially correct, though I still don't know quantitatively how much energy we're talking about.
BTW, if anybody has time, one way to guessimate (very roughly) is to look at head on car crashes, assume (if you don't know) say both cars at 50 mph, get a rough estimate of the weight of steel involved and how much each car was shortened, etc. What you would end up figuring out is delta - energy / [ (weight of steel) x (length)]
Call this sigma. If you divide the KE of the top of a collapsing WTC which free fell by 1 floor by the weight of 1 floor's worth of WTC frame, and then divided that whole thing by sigma, you will end up with a length. If this length is much less than the height of a single floor (say 25% h, just to make up a number), we may be able to say that a more precise estimate will still show that collapse is impossible, due to energy absorbtion due to compression AND bending of steel.
------------------------------------------------------------------
An I-Beam that bent rather than shattered:
(from http://users.ce.ufl.edu/~pgree/HPS_HomePage/hps.html)
Images:
http://users.ce.ufl.edu/~pgree/HPS_HomePage/images/test6.j
http://http://users.ce.ufl.edu/~pgree/HPS_...e/images/test6a
(emphasis mine)
QUOTE
Question - I have a question about steel properties. Steel is
generally defined by tensile strength. Is the compressive capacity the
same as the tensile capacity because steel is a homogeneous substance?
-----------------------------------------------
Steel is more or less a linear elastic material. Unlike concrete, which is
much weaker in tension than in compression, steel theoretically responds the
same way in either tension or compression. However, with enough applied
force, steel and other metals will cease to behave elastically and begin to
behave plastically. When a material is linearly elastic, its deformation,
or strain, will be directly proportional to the applied force and it will
return to its original shape when the force is removed. A plastic material,
on the other hand, will permanently deform without breaking (think of taffy
or perhaps the stringiness of melted mozzarella cheese on a pizza).
In real life, of course, there is no such thing as a perfectly elastic or
plastic material. In the case of steel, structural engineers are concerned
about the tensile strength in terms of both the ultimate strength and the
yield strength. When a specimen reaches its yield strength, it will begin
to stretch and transition from elastic to plastic behavior. As more force
is applied, the steel will reach its ultimate tensile strength and break.
Structural engineers take advantage of this property in their designs. In
an extreme event, such as an earthquake or major structural failure, this
plastic phase is useful because it allows the structure to sag and absorb
extra loads. If steel is too brittle, it will shatter instead of
stretching, possibly causing the structure to come crashing down. In either
case, the structure is ruined, but the plastic behavior of the steel allows
time for escape.
In compression, steel can still behave plastically. Think about how a coin
looks when it is run over by a train. This property allows metals such as
steel to be pressed into things like car bodies. However, in some
compressive situations, shear forces can also develop inside the specimen.
While steel behaves equally under tension and compression, depending on the
type of steel, it can be substantially weaker under shearing loads. In this
case, the steel may suffer a shear failure before reaching an ultimate
compressive strength.
Andy Johnson
This means that my calculation of (compressive) stress ala BZ should be correct, using "THE" Young's Modulus, at least until it ain't! (I.e., get to inelastic deformation). Also, my intuition about buckling steel "absorbing" energy as it deforms may be substantially correct, though I still don't know quantitatively how much energy we're talking about.
BTW, if anybody has time, one way to guessimate (very roughly) is to look at head on car crashes, assume (if you don't know) say both cars at 50 mph, get a rough estimate of the weight of steel involved and how much each car was shortened, etc. What you would end up figuring out is delta - energy / [ (weight of steel) x (length)]
Call this sigma. If you divide the KE of the top of a collapsing WTC which free fell by 1 floor by the weight of 1 floor's worth of WTC frame, and then divided that whole thing by sigma, you will end up with a length. If this length is much less than the height of a single floor (say 25% h, just to make up a number), we may be able to say that a more precise estimate will still show that collapse is impossible, due to energy absorbtion due to compression AND bending of steel.
------------------------------------------------------------------
An I-Beam that bent rather than shattered:
(from http://users.ce.ufl.edu/~pgree/HPS_HomePage/hps.html)
Images:
http://users.ce.ufl.edu/~pgree/HPS_HomePage/images/test6.j
http://http://users.ce.ufl.edu/~pgree/HPS_...e/images/test6a
QUOTE (steve1957+Dec 28 2005, 02:43 AM)
Common Sense,
Yeah some people believe OJ was framed just like some people believe that chikens have lips, and they also believe the black guy who was shot in the back of the head 4 times and knifed in the heart 20 times committed suicide.
Some people believe in Santa Clause and the easter bunny, but other people prefer to use a little common sense and seek the truth.
Yeah LA cops and many others frame people all the time, no doubt, but to think OJ was framed is about as logical is UFO's attacking the WTC.
The good thing is you have a right to your opinion, no matter how crazy it is.
I can see you have no common sense at all. You say OJ wasn't framed yet hes free? 12 people who were at the trial said the same thing. Note what someone with common sense does. (Muah) I said he might have done it but he was framed. I said that while pointing out a fact which you ignore. The blood on the sock. Not only was the blood on the socks telling but the way they were placed in the middle of the floor! Who the *** puts socks folded like they just came out of the dresser drawer in the middle of clean room? It wasn't one sock her and another there. It was two socks together as if someone laid them out to take a picture of it.
This is what I mean about common sense. You want to wish this all away but you can't. I on the other hand deal only with unbias evidence. ALL those 9/11 conspiracy web sites are obviously bias. Yet you believe them using the word "EVIDENCE" as if it actually could be used in a court of law! Heh!
Yeah some people believe OJ was framed just like some people believe that chikens have lips, and they also believe the black guy who was shot in the back of the head 4 times and knifed in the heart 20 times committed suicide.
Some people believe in Santa Clause and the easter bunny, but other people prefer to use a little common sense and seek the truth.
Yeah LA cops and many others frame people all the time, no doubt, but to think OJ was framed is about as logical is UFO's attacking the WTC.
The good thing is you have a right to your opinion, no matter how crazy it is.
I can see you have no common sense at all. You say OJ wasn't framed yet hes free? 12 people who were at the trial said the same thing. Note what someone with common sense does. (Muah) I said he might have done it but he was framed. I said that while pointing out a fact which you ignore. The blood on the sock. Not only was the blood on the socks telling but the way they were placed in the middle of the floor! Who the *** puts socks folded like they just came out of the dresser drawer in the middle of clean room? It wasn't one sock her and another there. It was two socks together as if someone laid them out to take a picture of it.
This is what I mean about common sense. You want to wish this all away but you can't. I on the other hand deal only with unbias evidence. ALL those 9/11 conspiracy web sites are obviously bias. Yet you believe them using the word "EVIDENCE" as if it actually could be used in a court of law! Heh!
Hi Steve!
Still peddlin' DHEA??
Nutjob.
Still peddlin' DHEA??
Nutjob.
QUOTE (Foxx+Dec 28 2005, 02:45 AM)
QUOTE (Common Sense+Dec 28 2005, 02:24 AM)
Only Rove can think of a conspiracy theory so stupid yet people believe it. Bush is now loved more people than Jesus! Not only the Neo-Cons, Not only the Administration but people who would have had family killed by this mass murder. Lets use some common sense for a moment to see all the people involved...
-The NYC Fire fighters who know more about building collapses than most if not all of you. It's their LIFE to know. Literally! Yet they don't call for an investigation into the MASS MURDER of over 300 of their brothers... Why? Because the liberal NYC firefighters just LOOVES BUSH. They would gladly give their lives for him. Bush is Jesus... (The twisting of these peoples statements for donations and DVD sales sickens me.)
-The NYC Police department who lost over 20 lives. They didn't ask for an investigation. They died for a good cause... Bush is Jesus...
-All the people in the pentagon don't want an investigation. Many who are liberal and centrist would gladly have a 757/missile (Heh!) rammed up their *** for Bush. They did or said nothing while people supposedly truck in airplane parts to cover the crime. Remember, Bush is Jesus.
-The more than 1,600 widows and widowers of 9/11 who rather have investigations of the decisions which lead to the terrorist getting away with this. They don't want to waste time investigating the mass murder of their loved ones. These people have a track record of helping Bush don't they. Why? Well isn't Bush Jesus?
-The media (This one I almost believe) who doesn't follow up on the biggest mass murder and conspiracy in American history. It seems no one want a Nobel prize for journalism. Can't say anything bad about Jesus!
-Popular Mechanics who debunked these sites is also helping Bush commit the biggest mass murder in history. I hear they're changing the name to "Popular Bible" so they can preach the word of Bush.
-Everyone in the NIST who think Bush is so cool they would cover up something this huge for him. Like the largest mass murder in US history.
-EVERY STRUCTUAL ENGINEER IN THE WORLD who doesn't write a paper for a mainstream peer reviewed journal saying the towers were brought down. If you laymen can prove things just by looking at videos and reading interviews out of context then all those structural engineers MUST be working for Bush right?
I'm telling you, Bush is JESUS!
Keep sucking on Roves tit.
Thank you for using common sense, have a nice day
Ahhhh, yes... The Schniebster reappears as....
'Common Sense' !!!
I suspect it won't take long for 'Common Sense' to start referring to me as a 'Liar'
Lair, but thank you for calling me Schniebster. I take that as a complement. You could have thought I was Foxx.
Drumroll as Foxx goes for the obligatory Rove style character assassination... Why address the small NATION of conspirators when you can deflect with an attack?
Work for FOXX NEWS by any chance?
Come to think of it, nowadays cars have so much non-steel in them, it's probably better just to call up old-timers in the auto body and junking business, and poll them regarding this question, for car pre 1980, I would guess.
If anybody wants to see crashed "exotic" cars, you can know yourself out (so to speak) at http://www.wreckedexotics.com
-The NYC Fire fighters who know more about building collapses than most if not all of you. It's their LIFE to know. Literally! Yet they don't call for an investigation into the MASS MURDER of over 300 of their brothers... Why? Because the liberal NYC firefighters just LOOVES BUSH. They would gladly give their lives for him. Bush is Jesus... (The twisting of these peoples statements for donations and DVD sales sickens me.)
-The NYC Police department who lost over 20 lives. They didn't ask for an investigation. They died for a good cause... Bush is Jesus...
-All the people in the pentagon don't want an investigation. Many who are liberal and centrist would gladly have a 757/missile (Heh!) rammed up their *** for Bush. They did or said nothing while people supposedly truck in airplane parts to cover the crime. Remember, Bush is Jesus.
-The more than 1,600 widows and widowers of 9/11 who rather have investigations of the decisions which lead to the terrorist getting away with this. They don't want to waste time investigating the mass murder of their loved ones. These people have a track record of helping Bush don't they. Why? Well isn't Bush Jesus?
-The media (This one I almost believe) who doesn't follow up on the biggest mass murder and conspiracy in American history. It seems no one want a Nobel prize for journalism. Can't say anything bad about Jesus!
-Popular Mechanics who debunked these sites is also helping Bush commit the biggest mass murder in history. I hear they're changing the name to "Popular Bible" so they can preach the word of Bush.
-Everyone in the NIST who think Bush is so cool they would cover up something this huge for him. Like the largest mass murder in US history.
-EVERY STRUCTUAL ENGINEER IN THE WORLD who doesn't write a paper for a mainstream peer reviewed journal saying the towers were brought down. If you laymen can prove things just by looking at videos and reading interviews out of context then all those structural engineers MUST be working for Bush right?
I'm telling you, Bush is JESUS!
Keep sucking on Roves tit.
Thank you for using common sense, have a nice day
Ahhhh, yes... The Schniebster reappears as....
'Common Sense' !!!
I suspect it won't take long for 'Common Sense' to start referring to me as a 'Liar'
Lair, but thank you for calling me Schniebster. I take that as a complement. You could have thought I was Foxx.
Drumroll as Foxx goes for the obligatory Rove style character assassination... Why address the small NATION of conspirators when you can deflect with an attack?
Work for FOXX NEWS by any chance?
QUOTE
say both cars at 50 mph, get a rough estimate of the weight of steel involved
Come to think of it, nowadays cars have so much non-steel in them, it's probably better just to call up old-timers in the auto body and junking business, and poll them regarding this question, for car pre 1980, I would guess.
If anybody wants to see crashed "exotic" cars, you can know yourself out (so to speak) at http://www.wreckedexotics.com
QUOTE (Common Sense+Dec 28 2005, 03:03 AM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Dec 28 2005, 02:45 AM)
QUOTE (Common Sense+Dec 28 2005, 02:24 AM)
Only Rove can think of a conspiracy theory so stupid yet people believe it. Bush is now loved more people than Jesus! Not only the Neo-Cons, Not only the Administration but people who would have had family killed by this mass murder. Lets use some common sense for a moment to see all the people involved...
-The NYC Fire fighters who know more about building collapses than most if not all of you. It's their LIFE to know. Literally! Yet they don't call for an investigation into the MASS MURDER of over 300 of their brothers... Why? Because the liberal NYC firefighters just LOOVES BUSH. They would gladly give their lives for him. Bush is Jesus... (The twisting of these peoples statements for donations and DVD sales sickens me.)
-The NYC Police department who lost over 20 lives. They didn't ask for an investigation. They died for a good cause... Bush is Jesus...
-All the people in the pentagon don't want an investigation. Many who are liberal and centrist would gladly have a 757/missile (Heh!) rammed up their *** for Bush. They did or said nothing while people supposedly truck in airplane parts to cover the crime. Remember, Bush is Jesus.
-The more than 1,600 widows and widowers of 9/11 who rather have investigations of the decisions which lead to the terrorist getting away with this. They don't want to waste time investigating the mass murder of their loved ones. These people have a track record of helping Bush don't they. Why? Well isn't Bush Jesus?
-The media (This one I almost believe) who doesn't follow up on the biggest mass murder and conspiracy in American history. It seems no one want a Nobel prize for journalism. Can't say anything bad about Jesus!
-Popular Mechanics who debunked these sites is also helping Bush commit the biggest mass murder in history. I hear they're changing the name to "Popular Bible" so they can preach the word of Bush.
-Everyone in the NIST who think Bush is so cool they would cover up something this huge for him. Like the largest mass murder in US history.
-EVERY STRUCTUAL ENGINEER IN THE WORLD who doesn't write a paper for a mainstream peer reviewed journal saying the towers were brought down. If you laymen can prove things just by looking at videos and reading interviews out of context then all those structural engineers MUST be working for Bush right?
I'm telling you, Bush is JESUS!
Keep sucking on Roves tit.
Thank you for using common sense, have a nice day
Ahhhh, yes... The Schniebster reappears as....
'Common Sense' !!!
I suspect it won't take long for 'Common Sense' to start referring to me as a 'Liar'
Lair, but thank you for calling me Schniebster. I take that as a complement. You could have thought I was Foxx.
Drumroll as Foxx goes for the obligatory Rove style character assassination... Why address the small NATION of conspirators when you can deflect with an attack?
Work for FOXX NEWS by any chance?
Heh...
Yep, that Schneibster was a REALLY COOL Guy !!!
Any questions ???
BTW, if anybody has time, one way to guessimate (very roughly) is to look at head on car crashes, assume (if you don't know) say both cars at 50 mph, get a rough estimate of the weight of steel involved and how much each car was shortened, etc. What you would end up figuring out is delta - energy / [ (weight of steel) x (length)]
Do not try to compare cars to buildings, cars are designed with crush initiators to control the collapse and make the steel fold (just look at the underside of your hood). If the world trade center was designed like a car then global collapse would be possible.
BTW, if anybody has time, one way to guessimate (very roughly) is to look at head on car crashes, assume (if you don't know) say both cars at 50 mph, get a rough estimate of the weight of steel involved and how much each car was shortened, etc. What you would end up figuring out is delta - energy / [ (weight of steel) x (length)]
Do not try to compare cars to buildings, cars are designed with crush initiators to control the collapse and make the steel fold (just look at the underside of your hood). If the world trade center was designed like a car then global collapse would be possible.
'Guest' ... No. It wouldn't.
Please explain this wacky theory?
BTW, if anybody has time, one way to guessimate (very roughly) is to look at head on car crashes, assume (if you don't know) say both cars at 50 mph, get a rough estimate of the weight of steel involved and how much each car was shortened, etc. What you would end up figuring out is delta - energy / [ (weight of steel) x (length)]
Do not try to compare cars to buildings, cars are designed with crush initiators to control the collapse and make the steel fold (just look at the underside of your hood). If the world trade center was designed like a car then global collapse would be possible.
And remember kiddies, never look for anything which makes global collapse possible and always believe unbiased web sites like www.iknowbushblewupthewtc.com as if they were mother Teressa herself. (How do you expect paypal make money?)
All this time I thought the devil and UFO's leveled the WTC. But I have proof!...

I've watched it.
Watched it many times.
Know what I DO see? The collapse begins EXACTLY above the floors where the planes impacted. You know the floors where NO EXPLOSIVES could have possibly survived.
Know what I DON'T see? HIGH EXPLOSIVES GOING OFF below the point of collapse.
I've watched it.
Watched it many times.
Know what I DO see? The collapse begins EXACTLY above the floors where the planes impacted. You know the floors where NO EXPLOSIVES could have possibly survived.
Know what I DON'T see? HIGH EXPLOSIVES GOING OFF below the point of collapse.
the resistant factor would delay the fall by at least one second per floor
Since this is your "formula", which is apparently your "Proof", could you explain what exactly is the definition of a "resistant factor" and what is the formula you use to calculate it?
Once we know that, we can see if it works out to 1 second per floor.
Arthur
PS: Anyone want to bet a zillion bucks that no FORMULA is forthcoming?
http://www.yic.gov/paceea/adcom/bios.html
Yeah, the Presidential Advisory Commission on Educational Excellence for Hispanic Americans,
Along with Jon Secada
Everything's a conspiracy.
Arthur
Please explain in more detail how you arrive at these figures.
Arthur
-The NYC Fire fighters who know more about building collapses than most if not all of you. It's their LIFE to know. Literally! Yet they don't call for an investigation into the MASS MURDER of over 300 of their brothers... Why? Because the liberal NYC firefighters just LOOVES BUSH. They would gladly give their lives for him. Bush is Jesus... (The twisting of these peoples statements for donations and DVD sales sickens me.)
-The NYC Police department who lost over 20 lives. They didn't ask for an investigation. They died for a good cause... Bush is Jesus...
-All the people in the pentagon don't want an investigation. Many who are liberal and centrist would gladly have a 757/missile (Heh!) rammed up their *** for Bush. They did or said nothing while people supposedly truck in airplane parts to cover the crime. Remember, Bush is Jesus.
-The more than 1,600 widows and widowers of 9/11 who rather have investigations of the decisions which lead to the terrorist getting away with this. They don't want to waste time investigating the mass murder of their loved ones. These people have a track record of helping Bush don't they. Why? Well isn't Bush Jesus?
-The media (This one I almost believe) who doesn't follow up on the biggest mass murder and conspiracy in American history. It seems no one want a Nobel prize for journalism. Can't say anything bad about Jesus!
-Popular Mechanics who debunked these sites is also helping Bush commit the biggest mass murder in history. I hear they're changing the name to "Popular Bible" so they can preach the word of Bush.
-Everyone in the NIST who think Bush is so cool they would cover up something this huge for him. Like the largest mass murder in US history.
-EVERY STRUCTUAL ENGINEER IN THE WORLD who doesn't write a paper for a mainstream peer reviewed journal saying the towers were brought down. If you laymen can prove things just by looking at videos and reading interviews out of context then all those structural engineers MUST be working for Bush right?
I'm telling you, Bush is JESUS!
Keep sucking on Roves tit.
Thank you for using common sense, have a nice day
Ahhhh, yes... The Schniebster reappears as....
'Common Sense' !!!
I suspect it won't take long for 'Common Sense' to start referring to me as a 'Liar'
Lair, but thank you for calling me Schniebster. I take that as a complement. You could have thought I was Foxx.
Drumroll as Foxx goes for the obligatory Rove style character assassination... Why address the small NATION of conspirators when you can deflect with an attack?
Work for FOXX NEWS by any chance?
Heh...
QUOTE
Originally posted by 'Common Sense'
Lair, but thank you for calling me Schniebster. I take that as a complement.
Lair, but thank you for calling me Schniebster. I take that as a complement.
Yep, that Schneibster was a REALLY COOL Guy !!!
Any questions ???
QUOTE (metamars+Dec 28 2005, 02:51 AM)
BTW, if anybody has time, one way to guessimate (very roughly) is to look at head on car crashes, assume (if you don't know) say both cars at 50 mph, get a rough estimate of the weight of steel involved and how much each car was shortened, etc. What you would end up figuring out is delta - energy / [ (weight of steel) x (length)]
Do not try to compare cars to buildings, cars are designed with crush initiators to control the collapse and make the steel fold (just look at the underside of your hood). If the world trade center was designed like a car then global collapse would be possible.
QUOTE (Guest+Dec 28 2005, 03:36 AM)
QUOTE (metamars+Dec 28 2005, 02:51 AM)
BTW, if anybody has time, one way to guessimate (very roughly) is to look at head on car crashes, assume (if you don't know) say both cars at 50 mph, get a rough estimate of the weight of steel involved and how much each car was shortened, etc. What you would end up figuring out is delta - energy / [ (weight of steel) x (length)]
Do not try to compare cars to buildings, cars are designed with crush initiators to control the collapse and make the steel fold (just look at the underside of your hood). If the world trade center was designed like a car then global collapse would be possible.
'Guest' ... No. It wouldn't.
Please explain this wacky theory?
Foxx,
What those transcripts show is that there was a great deal of confusion as to who was in charge.
Not surprisingly, the US systems of a Federal Govt with VERY POWERFUL States and in large cities, powerful mayors, sorta makes this a given.
Being as you are a Canadian, maybe you aren't that familiar with our govt. But our Federal Govt is not ALL POWERFUL. We are a Federation of STATES and the States retain control of most of what transpires within their borders. Which is why much of what happened on 9/11 fell under the jurisdiction of NY.
What the following shows is confusion as to who was in charge and what authority they had. The fact is, until the congress passed the legislation in question, there was no clear FEDERAL authority to do much of anything.
This whole thing about "destroying evidence" as a crime is ludicrous, because you will note that what you linked to is a NY statute. Thus in a Criminal trial it is the State of NY vs XYZ. But as the quote shows it was NY that decided to haul off the steel. So, assuming the Mayor/Governor signed off on its removal, then NY has eminent domain over the evidence and if it decides to remove it, it is within its legal right to do so.
But these issues were resolved. To late for 9/11, but isn't that how MANY such laws are passed?
The Act gives responsibility to the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) to dispatch teams of experts within 48 hours after major building disasters.
The Act gives the teams a clear mandate to:
Establish the likely technical cause of building failures;
Evaluate procedures used for evacuation and emergency response;
Recommend specific changes to building codes, standards and practices; in addition, recommend changes in emergency response and evacuation procedures; and Make final recommendations within 90 days of completing an investigation.
The Act gives NIST and the teams comprehensive investigative authorities, similar to those of the National Transportation Safety Board, to:
Access the site of a building disaster;
Subpoena evidence;
Access key pieces of evidence such as records and documents; and,
Move and preserve evidence.
The Act ensures that the team's investigations will not impede search and rescue efforts.
The Act establishes clear lines of communication to ensure that the public will be informed throughout the investigation by:
Requiring teams to hold regular briefings on the status of the investigative proceedings and findings; and,
Allowing the Director of NIST to convince a public hearing to take testimony relevant to a team's investigation.
The Act creates a standing advisory committee to oversee the implementation of the Act and evaluate team's duties.
The Act also gives NIST comprehensive authority to complete the investigation of the WTC disaster.
The Act authorizes for each of fiscal years 2003 through 2005 $25 million to remain available until expended to carry out investigation under this Act.
Now I guess it would have been nice if this was in place BEFORE 9/11, but it wasn't.
Complaining that there was confusion before this was passed is sort of a moot point.
Assuming it was a conspiracy involves not only the FBI, FEMA and NIST but many NY officials, and considering the beating NY took, both in lives lost, infrastructure lost, tax revenues lost etc etc one would have to come up with a damn good reason for these officials to be part of a conspiracy to wreck such havoc on their main city and State.
Arthur
What those transcripts show is that there was a great deal of confusion as to who was in charge.
Not surprisingly, the US systems of a Federal Govt with VERY POWERFUL States and in large cities, powerful mayors, sorta makes this a given.
Being as you are a Canadian, maybe you aren't that familiar with our govt. But our Federal Govt is not ALL POWERFUL. We are a Federation of STATES and the States retain control of most of what transpires within their borders. Which is why much of what happened on 9/11 fell under the jurisdiction of NY.
What the following shows is confusion as to who was in charge and what authority they had. The fact is, until the congress passed the legislation in question, there was no clear FEDERAL authority to do much of anything.
This whole thing about "destroying evidence" as a crime is ludicrous, because you will note that what you linked to is a NY statute. Thus in a Criminal trial it is the State of NY vs XYZ. But as the quote shows it was NY that decided to haul off the steel. So, assuming the Mayor/Governor signed off on its removal, then NY has eminent domain over the evidence and if it decides to remove it, it is within its legal right to do so.
QUOTE
Witnesses testified that confusion regarding who was in charge of the investigation and the BPAT's lack of investigative authorities led to delays in deploying the BPAT team, problems in gaining access to the WTC site, an inability to preserve valuable steel evidence from the site, and problems gaining access to information the BPAT requested.
During the hearing Members voiced concern about why the BPAT had not been deployed immediately after the attacks and whether the delay had hindered the team's ability to preserve important evidence. Dr. Corley testified that immediately following the attacks, ASCE began assembling a team of experts of study the disaster. Although this team later became part of the official BPAT that FEMA created, that official designation did not occur until late September. Furthermore, it was only at that time that the team was able to gain access to the disaster site. Dr. Corley believed that that one possible reason for this delay was the uncertain relationship between the BPAT and ongoing search and rescue efforts, as well as the criminal investigation. During the time the team was not present on site, the City of New York decided to haul away and recycle the steel, which could have been useful as evidence for the investigation.
Even after the BPAT was on site and had actively assumed its duties, there was still confusion abut whether the BPAT had the authority to preserve evidence. Mr. Shea said that the BPAT was in charge of gathering the necessary evidence for an investigation. However, Dr. Corley, who led the BPAT team, said that he did not know whether anyone had the authority even to ask the City of New York to stop recycling the steel. When Dr. Bement was asked if NIST could presently sequester evidence for its investigation, he said that NIST could request that evidence be preserved, but that it had no power to enforce the request.
Dr. Astaneh-Asl, who was funded by the National Science Foundation to study the collapse, testified that he experienced the same problems that Dr. Corley's team faced in terms of trying to access the site, and studying and preserving the steel evidence. He testified that he had, without any assistance from any federal agency, directly negotiated with the plants recycling the steel, and it was only because of their cooperation that he was given access to the steel.
Professor Corbett described the consequences of losing pieces of steel evidence. He said with steel from critical areas of the building (such as where the planes hit the building) would help the BPAT make more definitive statements as to the specific cause and chronology of the collapse.
Several witness commented on the problems the BPAT faced in gaining access to information it required as part of its investigation. The BPAT requested access to the WTC building blueprints, design drawings, and maintenance records. It planned to use these to validate physical and photographic evidence and to develop computer models to explain why and how the buildings failed and how similar failures might be avoided in the future. The BPAT did not get immediate access to the full set of these documents and eventually, FEMA had to intercede on behalf of the BPAT. However, there was a significant delay in FEMA making this request. Mr. Wingo testified that FEMA did not ask the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey for blueprints and design specifications for the buildings until December 21, nearly four months after the disaster, and Dr. Corley testified that the BPAT did not receive full copies of the blueprints and design drawings until January 8.
In addition to the structural records, the BPAT team requested video footage from the television networks and tapes of 911 calls from the New York City Police Department. Dr. Corley testified that the BPAT team was only able to obtain from TV networks video footage of the collapse that had been played on air; the networks would not release unaired footage. The BPAT ultimately gave up on attempting to obtain the 911 tapes.
During the hearing Members voiced concern about why the BPAT had not been deployed immediately after the attacks and whether the delay had hindered the team's ability to preserve important evidence. Dr. Corley testified that immediately following the attacks, ASCE began assembling a team of experts of study the disaster. Although this team later became part of the official BPAT that FEMA created, that official designation did not occur until late September. Furthermore, it was only at that time that the team was able to gain access to the disaster site. Dr. Corley believed that that one possible reason for this delay was the uncertain relationship between the BPAT and ongoing search and rescue efforts, as well as the criminal investigation. During the time the team was not present on site, the City of New York decided to haul away and recycle the steel, which could have been useful as evidence for the investigation.
Even after the BPAT was on site and had actively assumed its duties, there was still confusion abut whether the BPAT had the authority to preserve evidence. Mr. Shea said that the BPAT was in charge of gathering the necessary evidence for an investigation. However, Dr. Corley, who led the BPAT team, said that he did not know whether anyone had the authority even to ask the City of New York to stop recycling the steel. When Dr. Bement was asked if NIST could presently sequester evidence for its investigation, he said that NIST could request that evidence be preserved, but that it had no power to enforce the request.
Dr. Astaneh-Asl, who was funded by the National Science Foundation to study the collapse, testified that he experienced the same problems that Dr. Corley's team faced in terms of trying to access the site, and studying and preserving the steel evidence. He testified that he had, without any assistance from any federal agency, directly negotiated with the plants recycling the steel, and it was only because of their cooperation that he was given access to the steel.
Professor Corbett described the consequences of losing pieces of steel evidence. He said with steel from critical areas of the building (such as where the planes hit the building) would help the BPAT make more definitive statements as to the specific cause and chronology of the collapse.
Several witness commented on the problems the BPAT faced in gaining access to information it required as part of its investigation. The BPAT requested access to the WTC building blueprints, design drawings, and maintenance records. It planned to use these to validate physical and photographic evidence and to develop computer models to explain why and how the buildings failed and how similar failures might be avoided in the future. The BPAT did not get immediate access to the full set of these documents and eventually, FEMA had to intercede on behalf of the BPAT. However, there was a significant delay in FEMA making this request. Mr. Wingo testified that FEMA did not ask the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey for blueprints and design specifications for the buildings until December 21, nearly four months after the disaster, and Dr. Corley testified that the BPAT did not receive full copies of the blueprints and design drawings until January 8.
In addition to the structural records, the BPAT team requested video footage from the television networks and tapes of 911 calls from the New York City Police Department. Dr. Corley testified that the BPAT team was only able to obtain from TV networks video footage of the collapse that had been played on air; the networks would not release unaired footage. The BPAT ultimately gave up on attempting to obtain the 911 tapes.
But these issues were resolved. To late for 9/11, but isn't that how MANY such laws are passed?
The Act gives responsibility to the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) to dispatch teams of experts within 48 hours after major building disasters.
The Act gives the teams a clear mandate to:
Establish the likely technical cause of building failures;
Evaluate procedures used for evacuation and emergency response;
Recommend specific changes to building codes, standards and practices; in addition, recommend changes in emergency response and evacuation procedures; and Make final recommendations within 90 days of completing an investigation.
The Act gives NIST and the teams comprehensive investigative authorities, similar to those of the National Transportation Safety Board, to:
Access the site of a building disaster;
Subpoena evidence;
Access key pieces of evidence such as records and documents; and,
Move and preserve evidence.
The Act ensures that the team's investigations will not impede search and rescue efforts.
The Act establishes clear lines of communication to ensure that the public will be informed throughout the investigation by:
Requiring teams to hold regular briefings on the status of the investigative proceedings and findings; and,
Allowing the Director of NIST to convince a public hearing to take testimony relevant to a team's investigation.
The Act creates a standing advisory committee to oversee the implementation of the Act and evaluate team's duties.
The Act also gives NIST comprehensive authority to complete the investigation of the WTC disaster.
The Act authorizes for each of fiscal years 2003 through 2005 $25 million to remain available until expended to carry out investigation under this Act.
Now I guess it would have been nice if this was in place BEFORE 9/11, but it wasn't.
Complaining that there was confusion before this was passed is sort of a moot point.
Assuming it was a conspiracy involves not only the FBI, FEMA and NIST but many NY officials, and considering the beating NY took, both in lives lost, infrastructure lost, tax revenues lost etc etc one would have to come up with a damn good reason for these officials to be part of a conspiracy to wreck such havoc on their main city and State.
Arthur
QUOTE (Guest+Dec 28 2005, 03:36 AM)
QUOTE (metamars+Dec 28 2005, 02:51 AM)
BTW, if anybody has time, one way to guessimate (very roughly) is to look at head on car crashes, assume (if you don't know) say both cars at 50 mph, get a rough estimate of the weight of steel involved and how much each car was shortened, etc. What you would end up figuring out is delta - energy / [ (weight of steel) x (length)]
Do not try to compare cars to buildings, cars are designed with crush initiators to control the collapse and make the steel fold (just look at the underside of your hood). If the world trade center was designed like a car then global collapse would be possible.
And remember kiddies, never look for anything which makes global collapse possible and always believe unbiased web sites like www.iknowbushblewupthewtc.com as if they were mother Teressa herself. (How do you expect paypal make money?)
All this time I thought the devil and UFO's leveled the WTC. But I have proof!...

From THE NEW YORK TIMES:
Assistant Fire Commissioner: "I thought . . . before . . . No. 2 came down, that I saw low-level flashes. . . . I . . . saw a flash flash flash . . . [at] the lower level of the building. You know like when they . . . blow up a building. . . ?”
Source:
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyreg...ory_Stephen.txt
Edward Cachia FDNY WTC2 explosions before collapse: “It actually gave at a lower floor, not the floor where the plane hit. . . [W]e originally had thought there was like an internal detonation, explosives, because it went in succession, boom, boom, boom, boom, and then the tower came down.”
Link to quote:
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyreg...chia_Edward.txt
From The San Francisco Chronicle / SFGate.com:
Captain of Emergency Medical Services: "somewhere around the middle of the world trade center there was this orange and red flash coming out ... initially it was just one flash then this flash just kept popping all the way around the building and that building had started to explode ... and with each popping sound it was initially an orange and then red flash came out of the building and then it would just go all around the building on both sides ... as far as could see these popping sounds and the explosions were getting bigger going both up and down and then all around the building"
Link to quote:
http://sfgate.com/gate/pictures/2005/09/10...rin_deshore.pdf
"When we got to about 50 feet from the South Tower, we heard the most eerie sound that you would ever hear. A high-pitched noise and a popping noise made everyone stop. We all looked up. At the point, it all let go...
...There was an explosion and the whole top leaned toward us and started coming down. I stood there for a second in total awe, and then said, "What the F###?" I honestly thought it was Hollywood."
- Eye-witness Jeff Birnbaum, president of Broadway Electrical Supply Co., New York
Link to quote:
http://september11.ceenews.com/ar/electric...trical_supplys/
PARAMEDIC DANIEL RIVERA:
Q. WHAT DID YOU HEAR? WHAT DID YOU SEE? A. It was a frigging noise at first. At first I thought it was a professional demolition, where they set the charges on certain floors and then you hear Pop Pop Pop Pop. That’s exactly what I thought it was when I heard that frigging noise. That’s when I saw the building coming down.
http://www.flcv.com/firemen.html
Stephen Gregory , Assistant Commissioner (F.D.N.Y.) flashes, explosions p 14
...I thought that when I looked in the direction of the Trade Center before it came down, before No. 2 came down, that I saw low-level flashes. In my conversation with Lieutenant Evangelista, never mentioning this to him, he questioned me and asked me if I saw low-level flashes in front of the building, and I agreed with him because I thought -- at that time I didn't know what it was. I mean, it could have been as a result of the building collapsing, things exploding, but I saw a flash flash flash and then it looked like the building came down.
Q. Was that on the lower level of the building or up where the fire was?
A. No, the lower level of the building. You know like when they demolish a building, how when they blow up a building, when it falls down? That's what I thought I saw. And I didn't broach the topic to him, but he asked me. He said I don't know if I'm crazy,
http://www.flcv.com/firemen.html
Member of the FDNY:
"We were trying to get some of the people out, but then there was secondary explosions and then subsequent collapses."
Video: http://www.911blimp.net/videos/FDNY-explosions.mov
Firefighter:
"As we were getting our gear on and making our way to the stairway, there was a heavy duty explosion."
Video: http://terrorize.dk/911/witnesses/heavy.duty.explosion.wmv
DEPUTY COMMISSIONER THOMAS FlTZPATRlCK FDNY
We looked up at the building straight up, we were that close. All we saw was a puff of smoke coming from about 2 thirds of the way up. Some people thought it was an explosion. My initial reaction was that this was exactly the way it looks when they show you those implosions on TV.
http://www.flcv.com/firemen.html
FIREFIGHTER FRANK SWEENEY
I hear what sounded like firecrackers and a low rumble. I look up, and the south tower – I could see the top part of the siding overlapping the bottom side of the siding.
http://www.flcv.com/firemen.html
MSNBC Reporter, Ann Thompson:
"At 10:30 I tried to leave the building, but as I got outside I heard a second explosion and another rumble and more smoke and more dust. I ran inside the building and the chandelier shook and again black smoke filled the air. Within another five minutes we were covered again with more soot and more dust. And then a fire marshal came in and said we had to leave, because if there was a third explosion this building might not last.."
Video: http://www.terrorize.dk/911/witnesses/911.....explosions.wmv
Street Reporter:
"45 minutes into the taping we were doing, there was an explosion. It was way up where the fire was and the whole building at that point bellied out in flames and everybody ran."
Video: http://terrorize.dk/911/witnesses/911.wtc.reporter.2.wmv
Witness / 9-11 survivor:
"I was about five blocks away when I heard explosions... three thuds and turned around to see the building that we just got out of... tip over and fall in on itself."
Video: http://terrorize.dk/911/witnesses/911.wtc.witness.1.wmv
Witness / 9-11 survivor:
"...and then all of a sudden it started like... it sounded like gunfire... you know, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang and then all of a sudden three big explosions."
Video: http://terrorize.dk/911/witnesses/911.wtc.witness.2.wmv
Firemen recall "detonations" in South Tower:
fireman2: We made it outside, we made it about a block.
fireman1: We made it at least 2 blocks.
fireman2: 2 blocks.
fireman1: and we started runnin'
fireman2: poch-poch-poch-poch-poch-poch-poch
fireman1: Floor by floor it started poppin' out ..
fireman2: It was as if as if they had detonated, det..
fireman1: yea detonated yea
fireman2: as if they had planned to take down a building,
boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom ...
fireman1: All the way down, I was watchin it, and runnin'
Video: http://911research.com/wtc/evidence/videos...n_firehouse.mpg
Terror in the City, September 12 , 2001, Notes from Robert Ivy, FAIA Editor-in-chief
...we felt a rumble like faraway thunder and turned. The impossible was happening. The south tower of the World Trade Center shook, and in what resembled an elemental act, fell to earth in a mighty shout. The entire dissolution, the changeover from solid elements to ash, took only seconds, and it was gone...
Link to article:
http://www.archrecord.com/news/fromTheFiel.../0109terror.asp
An Eye-Witness Account of the World Trade Center Attacks
from Neil deGrasse Tyson
The following is the text from an email Neil deGrasse Tyson sent to his family and friends on 12 September 2001. Neil witnessed the attacks on the twin towers from his apartment only six blocks from the World Trade Center. He is Director of the Hayden Planetarium of the American Museum of Natural History, which is located in New York City. Neil also serves as The Planetary Society's Vice President...
From: Neil deGrasse Tyson
Sent: 10AM, Wednesday, 12 September 2001
Subject: The Horror, The Horror
...4) As more and more and more and more and more emergency vehicles descended on the World Trade Center, I hear a second explosion in WTC 2, then a loud, low-frequency rumble that precipitates the unthinkable -- a collapse of all the floors above the point of explosion. First the top surface, containing the helipad, tips sideways in full view. Then the upper floors fall straight down in a demolition-style implosion, taking all lower floors with it, even those below the point of the explosion...
...6) I decide it's time to get my daughter, who was taken by the parents of a friend of hers to a small office building, six blocks farther from the WTC than my apartment. As I dress for survival: boots, flashlight, wet towels, swimming goggles, bicycle helmet, gloves, I hear another explosion followed by a now all-too familiar rumble that signaled the collapse of WTC 1, the first of the two towers to have been hit. I saw the iconic antenna on this building descend straight down in an implosion twinning the first...
Link to Neil deGrasse Tyson's email:
http://www.planetary.org/html/society/advi...t11account.html
Tuesday, 11 September, 2001, Eyewitnesses tell of horror, BBC News
"...I saw everything from my balcony in Soho. The first plane tried to veer off the tower but slammed straight into it, followed by the second plane," Nadine Keller of New York City wrote in an e-mail to BBC News Online.
"There was smoke everywhere. I heard the bomb and saw both buildings crumble like biscuits," Ms Keller said.
Link to article:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1537500.stm
9/11 Survivor Describes Multiple Explosions
"There were explosions going off everywhere. I was convinced that there were bombs planted all over the place and someone was sitting at a control panel pushing detonator buttons. I was afraid to go down Church Street toward Broadway, but I had to do it. I ended up on Vesey Street. There was another explosion. And another. I didn't know where to run."
Source: "Teresa Veliz: A Prayer to Die Quickly and Painlessly," in September 11: An Oral History by Dean E. Murphy (Doubleday, 2002), pp 9-15. http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/veliz-bombs.htm
9/11 hero, William Rodriguez, who was the last person out of the north tower, explains that there was a massive explosion in the North Tower basement BEFORE the plane hit the tower:
"When I heard the sound of the explosion, the floor beneath my feet vibrated, the walls started cracking and it everything started shaking
"Seconds after the first massive explosion below in the basement still rattled the floor, I hear another explosion from way above... Although I was unaware at the time, this was the airplane hitting the tower, it occurred moments after the first explosion.
"I know there were explosives placed below the trade center.
"I have tried to tell my story to everybody, but nobody wants to listen. It is very strange what is going on here in supposedly the most democratic country in the world. In my home country of Puerto Rico and all the other Latin American countries, I have been allowed to tell my story uncensored. But here, I can’t even say a word.
"I met with the 9/11 Commission behind closed doors and they essentially discounted everything I said regarding the use of explosives to bring down the north tower.
"And I contacted NIST previously four times without a response. Finally, this week I asked them before they came up with their conclusion that jet fuel brought down the towers, if they ever considered my statements or the statements of any of the other survivors who heard the explosions. They just stared at me with blank faces and didn’t have any answers."
Link to quotes:
http://www.arcticbeacon.com/articles/artic...18131/28031.htm
September 12, 2001, New York City, People.com
Louie Cacchioli, 51, is a firefighter assigned to Engine 47 in Harlem.
We were the first ones in the second tower after the plane struck. I was taking firefighters up in the elevator to the 24th floor to get in position to evacuate workers. On the last trip up a bomb went off. We think there was bombs set in the building....
Link to article:
http://prisonplanet.com/louie_cacchioli.htm
NBC Reporter, Pat Dawson:
[Albert Turi the Chief of Safety for the New York Fire Department] received word of the possibility of a secondary device, that is another bomb going off. He tried to get his men out as quickly as he could, but he said there was another explosion which took place, and then an hour after the first hit, the first crash that took place, he said there was another explosion that took place in one of the towers here, so obviously according to his theory he thinks that there were actually devices that were planted in the building. One of the secondary devices he thinks that took place after the initial impact he thinks may have been on the plane that crashed into one of the towers. The second device, he thinks, he speculates, was probably planted in the building.“
Video: http://terrorize.dk/911/witnesses/911.wtc.reporter.1.wmv
"Apparently what appears to happen was that at the same time two planes hit the building that there... that the FBI most likely thinks that there was a car or truck packed with explosives underneath the buildings which also exploded at the same time..."
- War Corespondent, Jack Kelley
Video: http://www.terrorize.dk/911/comments/911.w....jack.kelley.rm
MSNBC Reporter, Rick Sanchez:
"Police have found what they believe to be a suspicious device and they fear that it may lead to another explosion...I spoke with some police officials moments ago, Chris, and they told me they have reason to believe that one of the explosions at the World Trade Center, besides the ones made with the planes, may have been caused by a van that was parked in the building that may have had an explosive device in it."
Video: http://www.terrorize.dk/911/comments/911.w....explosives.wmv
“Amazing, incredible pick your word. For the third time today, it’s reminiscent of those pictures we’ve all seen too much on television before, where a building was deliberately destroyed by well placed dynamite to knock it down.”
- CBS News anchor, Dan Rather, September 11, 2001.
Video: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/w..._demolition.mpg
Radio host Bonnie Falkner: How long did you work as an emergency medical technician and exactly what is it that you were doing (at ground zero)?
Indira Singh: ...when I got there we were setting up triage sites (at ground zero), close, very close to the area. The triage site that I was setting up was behind, well, to the east of Building 7 where Building 7 came down...
...we were setting up triages as close to the pile as possible… so what we were doing was setting up different kinds of stations… IV stations, cardiac stations, wound stations, burn stations ...just trying to have an organized space. What happened with that particular triage site is that pretty soon afternoon, after mid-day on 9/11 we had to evacuate that because they told us Building 7 was coming down... I do believe that they brought Building 7 down... By noon or one o'clock they told us we had to move from that triage site up to Pace University a little further away because Building 7 was going to come down or being brought down.
Bonnie Falkner: Did they actually use the word "brought" down and who was it that was telling you this?
Indira Singh: The fire department... the fire department and they did use the word "we're going to have to bring it down."
The entire interview can be listened to at the link below. The excerpts from above can be found approximately 10 minutes into the interview.
Guns & Butter Radio interview w/ Indira Singh hosted by Bonnie Falkner - April 27th 2005:
http://tinyurl.com/7dww8
"I remember getting a call from the, er, fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, 'We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it.' And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse."
- World Trade Center lease holder, Larry Silverstein, commenting on the demolition of Building 7 in the PBS documentary "America Rebuilds", which aired in September of 2002
Video: http://www.911blogger.com/files/video/wtc7_pbs.WMV
Audio: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/PULLIT.mp3
In the same documentary, America Rebuilds, a clean up worker at ground zero (weeks after 9-11) also uses the term "pull" when preparing for the controlled demolition of Building 6:
"... we're getting ready to pull building six."
Audio: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/pull-it2.mp3
"If you've seen many of the managed demolitions where they implode a building and they cause it to essentially to fall vertically because they cause all of the vertical columns to fail simultaneously, that's exactly what it looked like and that's what happened"
- Matthys Levy, Structural Engineer and co author of Why buildings Fall Down
Video: http://www.freepressinternational.com/discovery.html
"In writing this paper, I call for a serious investigation of the hypothesis that WTC 7 and the Twin Towers were brought down, not just by damage and fires, but through the use of pre-positioned explosives. I consider the official FEMA, NIST, and 9-11 Commission reports that fires plus damage alone caused complete collapses of all three buildings. And I present evidence for the explosive-demolition hypothesis, which is suggested by the available data, testable and falsifiable, and yet has not been analyzed in any of the reports funded by the US government.
[snip]
CONCLUSIONS
I have called attention to glaring inadequacies in the “final” reports funded by the US government and shown evidences for a likely alternative hypothesis. In particular, the official theory lacks repeatability in that no actual models or buildings (before or since 9-11-01) have been observed to completely collapse due to the proposed fire-based mechanisms. On the other hand, dozens of buildings have been completely and symmetrically demolished through the use of pre-positioned explosives and chemical-cutters. And high-temperature chemical reactions can account for the observed large pools of molten metal, under both Towers and WTC 7. The “explosive demolition” hypothesis better satisfies tests of repeatability and parsimony and therefore is not “junk science.” It ought to be seriously, scientifically investigated and debated.
A truly independent, international panel would consider all viable hypotheses, including the pre-positioned-explosives theory, guided not by politicized notions and constraints, but rather by observations and calculations, to reach a scientific conclusion. Questioning (preferably under oath) of officials who approved the rapid removal and destruction of the WTC steel beams and columns before they could be properly analyzed – and others as outlined above – should proceed in the United States.
None of the government-funded studies have provided serious analyses of the explosive demolition hypothesis at all. Until the above steps are taken, the case for accusing ill-trained Muslims of causing all the destruction on 9-11-01 is far from compelling. It just does not add up.
[snip]
- Excerpt from BYU Professor of Physics, Steven E. Jones' academic paper submitted for peer-review entitled, Why Indeed Did the WTC Buildings Collapse?
Link to Prof. Jones' entire paper:
http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html
Why WTC Steel Towers Collapsed at One Blow
September 20, 2001
english.people.com.cn
Professor Shi Yongjiu, director of civil engineering department of Qinghua University and an expert on steel structure, guesses that the lower part of the WTC twin towers may got seriously damaged.
According to steel structure's mechanical nature, the towers shouldn't collapse as late as an hour later after the planes slammed into. What's more, it should be in a way to topple over gradually instead of crashing down as seen in videotapes. It looks more like a directional blast in doing the job of destruction, so he feels that huge damages must have been done at the lower part of the towers.
Link to article:
http://english.people.com.cn/english/20010...0920_80655.html
Explosives Planted in Towers, New Mexico Tech Expert Says
Albuquerque Journal, September, 2001
"My opinion is, based on the videotapes, that after the
airplanes hit the World Trade Center there were some
explosive devices inside the buildings that caused the
towers to collapse
"It would be difficult for
something from the plane to trigger an event like that
"It could have been a relatively small
amount of explosives placed in strategic points
- Van Romero, Vice President for Research and Economic Development at New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology and a major authority on the effects of explosions on buildings (Romero retracted his statements only days after making them, saying "Certainly the fire is what caused the buildings to fail.").
Original Link to quote
http://www.abqjournal.com/aqvan09-11-01.htm
Archived link of Romero's statements:
http://www.world-action.co.uk/explosives.html
New Mexico Tech Explosives Expert 'Flip-Flops' On WTC Controlled Demo Theory; Refuses To Explain Why
http://news.baou.com/main.php?action=recent&rid=20284
Romero receives promotion soon after he recants his "bombs brought down the WTC" statements - January 11, 2002:
http://infohost.nmt.edu/mainpage/news/2002/11jan05.html
Romero appointed Co-Chair to the Presidential Advisory Commission:
http://www.yic.gov/paceea/adcom/bios.html
Assistant Fire Commissioner: "I thought . . . before . . . No. 2 came down, that I saw low-level flashes. . . . I . . . saw a flash flash flash . . . [at] the lower level of the building. You know like when they . . . blow up a building. . . ?”
Source:
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyreg...ory_Stephen.txt
Edward Cachia FDNY WTC2 explosions before collapse: “It actually gave at a lower floor, not the floor where the plane hit. . . [W]e originally had thought there was like an internal detonation, explosives, because it went in succession, boom, boom, boom, boom, and then the tower came down.”
Link to quote:
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyreg...chia_Edward.txt
From The San Francisco Chronicle / SFGate.com:
Captain of Emergency Medical Services: "somewhere around the middle of the world trade center there was this orange and red flash coming out ... initially it was just one flash then this flash just kept popping all the way around the building and that building had started to explode ... and with each popping sound it was initially an orange and then red flash came out of the building and then it would just go all around the building on both sides ... as far as could see these popping sounds and the explosions were getting bigger going both up and down and then all around the building"
Link to quote:
http://sfgate.com/gate/pictures/2005/09/10...rin_deshore.pdf
"When we got to about 50 feet from the South Tower, we heard the most eerie sound that you would ever hear. A high-pitched noise and a popping noise made everyone stop. We all looked up. At the point, it all let go...
...There was an explosion and the whole top leaned toward us and started coming down. I stood there for a second in total awe, and then said, "What the F###?" I honestly thought it was Hollywood."
- Eye-witness Jeff Birnbaum, president of Broadway Electrical Supply Co., New York
Link to quote:
http://september11.ceenews.com/ar/electric...trical_supplys/
PARAMEDIC DANIEL RIVERA:
Q. WHAT DID YOU HEAR? WHAT DID YOU SEE? A. It was a frigging noise at first. At first I thought it was a professional demolition, where they set the charges on certain floors and then you hear Pop Pop Pop Pop. That’s exactly what I thought it was when I heard that frigging noise. That’s when I saw the building coming down.
http://www.flcv.com/firemen.html
Stephen Gregory , Assistant Commissioner (F.D.N.Y.) flashes, explosions p 14
...I thought that when I looked in the direction of the Trade Center before it came down, before No. 2 came down, that I saw low-level flashes. In my conversation with Lieutenant Evangelista, never mentioning this to him, he questioned me and asked me if I saw low-level flashes in front of the building, and I agreed with him because I thought -- at that time I didn't know what it was. I mean, it could have been as a result of the building collapsing, things exploding, but I saw a flash flash flash and then it looked like the building came down.
Q. Was that on the lower level of the building or up where the fire was?
A. No, the lower level of the building. You know like when they demolish a building, how when they blow up a building, when it falls down? That's what I thought I saw. And I didn't broach the topic to him, but he asked me. He said I don't know if I'm crazy,
http://www.flcv.com/firemen.html
Member of the FDNY:
"We were trying to get some of the people out, but then there was secondary explosions and then subsequent collapses."
Video: http://www.911blimp.net/videos/FDNY-explosions.mov
Firefighter:
"As we were getting our gear on and making our way to the stairway, there was a heavy duty explosion."
Video: http://terrorize.dk/911/witnesses/heavy.duty.explosion.wmv
DEPUTY COMMISSIONER THOMAS FlTZPATRlCK FDNY
We looked up at the building straight up, we were that close. All we saw was a puff of smoke coming from about 2 thirds of the way up. Some people thought it was an explosion. My initial reaction was that this was exactly the way it looks when they show you those implosions on TV.
http://www.flcv.com/firemen.html
FIREFIGHTER FRANK SWEENEY
I hear what sounded like firecrackers and a low rumble. I look up, and the south tower – I could see the top part of the siding overlapping the bottom side of the siding.
http://www.flcv.com/firemen.html
MSNBC Reporter, Ann Thompson:
"At 10:30 I tried to leave the building, but as I got outside I heard a second explosion and another rumble and more smoke and more dust. I ran inside the building and the chandelier shook and again black smoke filled the air. Within another five minutes we were covered again with more soot and more dust. And then a fire marshal came in and said we had to leave, because if there was a third explosion this building might not last.."
Video: http://www.terrorize.dk/911/witnesses/911.....explosions.wmv
Street Reporter:
"45 minutes into the taping we were doing, there was an explosion. It was way up where the fire was and the whole building at that point bellied out in flames and everybody ran."
Video: http://terrorize.dk/911/witnesses/911.wtc.reporter.2.wmv
Witness / 9-11 survivor:
"I was about five blocks away when I heard explosions... three thuds and turned around to see the building that we just got out of... tip over and fall in on itself."
Video: http://terrorize.dk/911/witnesses/911.wtc.witness.1.wmv
Witness / 9-11 survivor:
"...and then all of a sudden it started like... it sounded like gunfire... you know, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang and then all of a sudden three big explosions."
Video: http://terrorize.dk/911/witnesses/911.wtc.witness.2.wmv
Firemen recall "detonations" in South Tower:
fireman2: We made it outside, we made it about a block.
fireman1: We made it at least 2 blocks.
fireman2: 2 blocks.
fireman1: and we started runnin'
fireman2: poch-poch-poch-poch-poch-poch-poch
fireman1: Floor by floor it started poppin' out ..
fireman2: It was as if as if they had detonated, det..
fireman1: yea detonated yea
fireman2: as if they had planned to take down a building,
boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom ...
fireman1: All the way down, I was watchin it, and runnin'
Video: http://911research.com/wtc/evidence/videos...n_firehouse.mpg
Terror in the City, September 12 , 2001, Notes from Robert Ivy, FAIA Editor-in-chief
...we felt a rumble like faraway thunder and turned. The impossible was happening. The south tower of the World Trade Center shook, and in what resembled an elemental act, fell to earth in a mighty shout. The entire dissolution, the changeover from solid elements to ash, took only seconds, and it was gone...
Link to article:
http://www.archrecord.com/news/fromTheFiel.../0109terror.asp
An Eye-Witness Account of the World Trade Center Attacks
from Neil deGrasse Tyson
The following is the text from an email Neil deGrasse Tyson sent to his family and friends on 12 September 2001. Neil witnessed the attacks on the twin towers from his apartment only six blocks from the World Trade Center. He is Director of the Hayden Planetarium of the American Museum of Natural History, which is located in New York City. Neil also serves as The Planetary Society's Vice President...
From: Neil deGrasse Tyson
Sent: 10AM, Wednesday, 12 September 2001
Subject: The Horror, The Horror
...4) As more and more and more and more and more emergency vehicles descended on the World Trade Center, I hear a second explosion in WTC 2, then a loud, low-frequency rumble that precipitates the unthinkable -- a collapse of all the floors above the point of explosion. First the top surface, containing the helipad, tips sideways in full view. Then the upper floors fall straight down in a demolition-style implosion, taking all lower floors with it, even those below the point of the explosion...
...6) I decide it's time to get my daughter, who was taken by the parents of a friend of hers to a small office building, six blocks farther from the WTC than my apartment. As I dress for survival: boots, flashlight, wet towels, swimming goggles, bicycle helmet, gloves, I hear another explosion followed by a now all-too familiar rumble that signaled the collapse of WTC 1, the first of the two towers to have been hit. I saw the iconic antenna on this building descend straight down in an implosion twinning the first...
Link to Neil deGrasse Tyson's email:
http://www.planetary.org/html/society/advi...t11account.html
Tuesday, 11 September, 2001, Eyewitnesses tell of horror, BBC News
"...I saw everything from my balcony in Soho. The first plane tried to veer off the tower but slammed straight into it, followed by the second plane," Nadine Keller of New York City wrote in an e-mail to BBC News Online.
"There was smoke everywhere. I heard the bomb and saw both buildings crumble like biscuits," Ms Keller said.
Link to article:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1537500.stm
9/11 Survivor Describes Multiple Explosions
"There were explosions going off everywhere. I was convinced that there were bombs planted all over the place and someone was sitting at a control panel pushing detonator buttons. I was afraid to go down Church Street toward Broadway, but I had to do it. I ended up on Vesey Street. There was another explosion. And another. I didn't know where to run."
Source: "Teresa Veliz: A Prayer to Die Quickly and Painlessly," in September 11: An Oral History by Dean E. Murphy (Doubleday, 2002), pp 9-15. http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/veliz-bombs.htm
9/11 hero, William Rodriguez, who was the last person out of the north tower, explains that there was a massive explosion in the North Tower basement BEFORE the plane hit the tower:
"When I heard the sound of the explosion, the floor beneath my feet vibrated, the walls started cracking and it everything started shaking
"Seconds after the first massive explosion below in the basement still rattled the floor, I hear another explosion from way above... Although I was unaware at the time, this was the airplane hitting the tower, it occurred moments after the first explosion.
"I know there were explosives placed below the trade center.
"I have tried to tell my story to everybody, but nobody wants to listen. It is very strange what is going on here in supposedly the most democratic country in the world. In my home country of Puerto Rico and all the other Latin American countries, I have been allowed to tell my story uncensored. But here, I can’t even say a word.
"I met with the 9/11 Commission behind closed doors and they essentially discounted everything I said regarding the use of explosives to bring down the north tower.
"And I contacted NIST previously four times without a response. Finally, this week I asked them before they came up with their conclusion that jet fuel brought down the towers, if they ever considered my statements or the statements of any of the other survivors who heard the explosions. They just stared at me with blank faces and didn’t have any answers."
Link to quotes:
http://www.arcticbeacon.com/articles/artic...18131/28031.htm
September 12, 2001, New York City, People.com
Louie Cacchioli, 51, is a firefighter assigned to Engine 47 in Harlem.
We were the first ones in the second tower after the plane struck. I was taking firefighters up in the elevator to the 24th floor to get in position to evacuate workers. On the last trip up a bomb went off. We think there was bombs set in the building....
Link to article:
http://prisonplanet.com/louie_cacchioli.htm
NBC Reporter, Pat Dawson:
[Albert Turi the Chief of Safety for the New York Fire Department] received word of the possibility of a secondary device, that is another bomb going off. He tried to get his men out as quickly as he could, but he said there was another explosion which took place, and then an hour after the first hit, the first crash that took place, he said there was another explosion that took place in one of the towers here, so obviously according to his theory he thinks that there were actually devices that were planted in the building. One of the secondary devices he thinks that took place after the initial impact he thinks may have been on the plane that crashed into one of the towers. The second device, he thinks, he speculates, was probably planted in the building.“
Video: http://terrorize.dk/911/witnesses/911.wtc.reporter.1.wmv
"Apparently what appears to happen was that at the same time two planes hit the building that there... that the FBI most likely thinks that there was a car or truck packed with explosives underneath the buildings which also exploded at the same time..."
- War Corespondent, Jack Kelley
Video: http://www.terrorize.dk/911/comments/911.w....jack.kelley.rm
MSNBC Reporter, Rick Sanchez:
"Police have found what they believe to be a suspicious device and they fear that it may lead to another explosion...I spoke with some police officials moments ago, Chris, and they told me they have reason to believe that one of the explosions at the World Trade Center, besides the ones made with the planes, may have been caused by a van that was parked in the building that may have had an explosive device in it."
Video: http://www.terrorize.dk/911/comments/911.w....explosives.wmv
“Amazing, incredible pick your word. For the third time today, it’s reminiscent of those pictures we’ve all seen too much on television before, where a building was deliberately destroyed by well placed dynamite to knock it down.”
- CBS News anchor, Dan Rather, September 11, 2001.
Video: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/w..._demolition.mpg
Radio host Bonnie Falkner: How long did you work as an emergency medical technician and exactly what is it that you were doing (at ground zero)?
Indira Singh: ...when I got there we were setting up triage sites (at ground zero), close, very close to the area. The triage site that I was setting up was behind, well, to the east of Building 7 where Building 7 came down...
...we were setting up triages as close to the pile as possible… so what we were doing was setting up different kinds of stations… IV stations, cardiac stations, wound stations, burn stations ...just trying to have an organized space. What happened with that particular triage site is that pretty soon afternoon, after mid-day on 9/11 we had to evacuate that because they told us Building 7 was coming down... I do believe that they brought Building 7 down... By noon or one o'clock they told us we had to move from that triage site up to Pace University a little further away because Building 7 was going to come down or being brought down.
Bonnie Falkner: Did they actually use the word "brought" down and who was it that was telling you this?
Indira Singh: The fire department... the fire department and they did use the word "we're going to have to bring it down."
The entire interview can be listened to at the link below. The excerpts from above can be found approximately 10 minutes into the interview.
Guns & Butter Radio interview w/ Indira Singh hosted by Bonnie Falkner - April 27th 2005:
http://tinyurl.com/7dww8
"I remember getting a call from the, er, fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, 'We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it.' And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse."
- World Trade Center lease holder, Larry Silverstein, commenting on the demolition of Building 7 in the PBS documentary "America Rebuilds", which aired in September of 2002
Video: http://www.911blogger.com/files/video/wtc7_pbs.WMV
Audio: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/PULLIT.mp3
In the same documentary, America Rebuilds, a clean up worker at ground zero (weeks after 9-11) also uses the term "pull" when preparing for the controlled demolition of Building 6:
"... we're getting ready to pull building six."
Audio: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/pull-it2.mp3
"If you've seen many of the managed demolitions where they implode a building and they cause it to essentially to fall vertically because they cause all of the vertical columns to fail simultaneously, that's exactly what it looked like and that's what happened"
- Matthys Levy, Structural Engineer and co author of Why buildings Fall Down
Video: http://www.freepressinternational.com/discovery.html
"In writing this paper, I call for a serious investigation of the hypothesis that WTC 7 and the Twin Towers were brought down, not just by damage and fires, but through the use of pre-positioned explosives. I consider the official FEMA, NIST, and 9-11 Commission reports that fires plus damage alone caused complete collapses of all three buildings. And I present evidence for the explosive-demolition hypothesis, which is suggested by the available data, testable and falsifiable, and yet has not been analyzed in any of the reports funded by the US government.
[snip]
CONCLUSIONS
I have called attention to glaring inadequacies in the “final” reports funded by the US government and shown evidences for a likely alternative hypothesis. In particular, the official theory lacks repeatability in that no actual models or buildings (before or since 9-11-01) have been observed to completely collapse due to the proposed fire-based mechanisms. On the other hand, dozens of buildings have been completely and symmetrically demolished through the use of pre-positioned explosives and chemical-cutters. And high-temperature chemical reactions can account for the observed large pools of molten metal, under both Towers and WTC 7. The “explosive demolition” hypothesis better satisfies tests of repeatability and parsimony and therefore is not “junk science.” It ought to be seriously, scientifically investigated and debated.
A truly independent, international panel would consider all viable hypotheses, including the pre-positioned-explosives theory, guided not by politicized notions and constraints, but rather by observations and calculations, to reach a scientific conclusion. Questioning (preferably under oath) of officials who approved the rapid removal and destruction of the WTC steel beams and columns before they could be properly analyzed – and others as outlined above – should proceed in the United States.
None of the government-funded studies have provided serious analyses of the explosive demolition hypothesis at all. Until the above steps are taken, the case for accusing ill-trained Muslims of causing all the destruction on 9-11-01 is far from compelling. It just does not add up.
[snip]
- Excerpt from BYU Professor of Physics, Steven E. Jones' academic paper submitted for peer-review entitled, Why Indeed Did the WTC Buildings Collapse?
Link to Prof. Jones' entire paper:
http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html
Why WTC Steel Towers Collapsed at One Blow
September 20, 2001
english.people.com.cn
Professor Shi Yongjiu, director of civil engineering department of Qinghua University and an expert on steel structure, guesses that the lower part of the WTC twin towers may got seriously damaged.
According to steel structure's mechanical nature, the towers shouldn't collapse as late as an hour later after the planes slammed into. What's more, it should be in a way to topple over gradually instead of crashing down as seen in videotapes. It looks more like a directional blast in doing the job of destruction, so he feels that huge damages must have been done at the lower part of the towers.
Link to article:
http://english.people.com.cn/english/20010...0920_80655.html
Explosives Planted in Towers, New Mexico Tech Expert Says
Albuquerque Journal, September, 2001
"My opinion is, based on the videotapes, that after the
airplanes hit the World Trade Center there were some
explosive devices inside the buildings that caused the
towers to collapse
"It would be difficult for
something from the plane to trigger an event like that
"It could have been a relatively small
amount of explosives placed in strategic points
- Van Romero, Vice President for Research and Economic Development at New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology and a major authority on the effects of explosions on buildings (Romero retracted his statements only days after making them, saying "Certainly the fire is what caused the buildings to fail.").
Original Link to quote
http://www.abqjournal.com/aqvan09-11-01.htm
Archived link of Romero's statements:
http://www.world-action.co.uk/explosives.html
New Mexico Tech Explosives Expert 'Flip-Flops' On WTC Controlled Demo Theory; Refuses To Explain Why
http://news.baou.com/main.php?action=recent&rid=20284
Romero receives promotion soon after he recants his "bombs brought down the WTC" statements - January 11, 2002:
http://infohost.nmt.edu/mainpage/news/2002/11jan05.html
Romero appointed Co-Chair to the Presidential Advisory Commission:
http://www.yic.gov/paceea/adcom/bios.html
QUOTE
Regarding the 10 seconds it took to collapse from top to bottom, you lie again, there is more proof of that than of your birth. That's on video clip after video clip, all you have to do is WATCH IT. You might argue that it was perhaps 11 seconds or who knows even 12, but that's irrelevant, because if in fact the pancake theory were to work the resistant factor would delay the fall by at least one second per floor, multiply 110 floors by 1 second and guess how long it would have taken? I'll give you hint, it's more than 10 seconds, or even 20 seconds.
I've watched it.
Watched it many times.
Know what I DO see? The collapse begins EXACTLY above the floors where the planes impacted. You know the floors where NO EXPLOSIVES could have possibly survived.
Know what I DON'T see? HIGH EXPLOSIVES GOING OFF below the point of collapse.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Regarding the 10 seconds it took to collapse from top to bottom, you lie again, there is more proof of that than of your birth. That's on video clip after video clip, all you have to do is WATCH IT. You might argue that it was perhaps 11 seconds or who knows even 12, but that's irrelevant, because if in fact the pancake theory were to work the resistant factor would delay the fall by at least one second per floor, multiply 110 floors by 1 second and guess how long it would have taken? I'll give you hint, it's more than 10 seconds, or even 20 seconds. |
I've watched it.
Watched it many times.
Know what I DO see? The collapse begins EXACTLY above the floors where the planes impacted. You know the floors where NO EXPLOSIVES could have possibly survived.
Know what I DON'T see? HIGH EXPLOSIVES GOING OFF below the point of collapse.
the resistant factor would delay the fall by at least one second per floor
Since this is your "formula", which is apparently your "Proof", could you explain what exactly is the definition of a "resistant factor" and what is the formula you use to calculate it?
Once we know that, we can see if it works out to 1 second per floor.
Arthur
PS: Anyone want to bet a zillion bucks that no FORMULA is forthcoming?
First post I've seen which deals with the real behaviour of steel.
There is an elastic phase in compression but like you say failure is likely to come from buckling or shear before failure due to compression.
Dealing with some quick figures, if the top of the tower did somehow manage to drop 3.7 metres under gravity (it can't but we can ignore the absence of an initiation mechanism for now.) it would reach about 8ms^-1 before impacting the bottom section. in order to overcome the elastic limit of the columns they would have to exert a force and would thus have to decelerate.
The force would build from zero at first contact up to the static load multiplied by the safety factor at the elastic limit. (The effective elastic limit would be reduced by heat but it wouldn't be difficult to incorporate this)If we assume that the force stays at the elastic limit level while plastically deforming the columns we can show the extent of the damage caused by equating kinetic energy to strain energy throughout the collision. (some polymers have a constant load extension but steel doesn't, but for simplicity.... the load to cause plastic deformation is actually higher than the elastic limit)
Strain energy is force times distance, same as many others.
So if we assume a weight of 18m dropping to a floor used to a static load of 20m and a safety factor of 5 then you can show using an elastic limit of 0.2% deformation over the original length and remembering that there will be a corresponding compression and movement of all the storeys below the impact and that that deformation will also be related to the differing static loads it can be shown that the fall of the upper section would have been arrested after a plastic deformation of about 550mm.
The stuff about gallileos momentum is interesting for collapse times but this assumes that the floors have mass but no strength and the column and core have either been ignored or have been assumed to have an effective safety factor of 0. the collapse times obtained by Gallileos stuff would be times which could never be achieved in reality other than by instantaneously reducing the support to 0 or close to 0
If something has a safety factor of less than 1 it will fall down anyway, so how do you get from 1 to 0 instantaneously?
The vertical strain energy which the building was capable of absorbing would have been a multiple of the total potential energy available from the collapsing section, and indeed of the total PE of the building as a whole. Since it was that strain energy, or more precisely a fraction of it, which was holding the tower up in the first place.
quick figures - I could have made mistakes - but would it have totally collapsed due to a fraction of its mass comprising the smallest sections of steel impacting the largest piece comprising the thickest members after dropping 4m at less than gravitational acceleration. No - nothing like it.
Gordon
There is an elastic phase in compression but like you say failure is likely to come from buckling or shear before failure due to compression.
Dealing with some quick figures, if the top of the tower did somehow manage to drop 3.7 metres under gravity (it can't but we can ignore the absence of an initiation mechanism for now.) it would reach about 8ms^-1 before impacting the bottom section. in order to overcome the elastic limit of the columns they would have to exert a force and would thus have to decelerate.
The force would build from zero at first contact up to the static load multiplied by the safety factor at the elastic limit. (The effective elastic limit would be reduced by heat but it wouldn't be difficult to incorporate this)If we assume that the force stays at the elastic limit level while plastically deforming the columns we can show the extent of the damage caused by equating kinetic energy to strain energy throughout the collision. (some polymers have a constant load extension but steel doesn't, but for simplicity.... the load to cause plastic deformation is actually higher than the elastic limit)
Strain energy is force times distance, same as many others.
So if we assume a weight of 18m dropping to a floor used to a static load of 20m and a safety factor of 5 then you can show using an elastic limit of 0.2% deformation over the original length and remembering that there will be a corresponding compression and movement of all the storeys below the impact and that that deformation will also be related to the differing static loads it can be shown that the fall of the upper section would have been arrested after a plastic deformation of about 550mm.
The stuff about gallileos momentum is interesting for collapse times but this assumes that the floors have mass but no strength and the column and core have either been ignored or have been assumed to have an effective safety factor of 0. the collapse times obtained by Gallileos stuff would be times which could never be achieved in reality other than by instantaneously reducing the support to 0 or close to 0
If something has a safety factor of less than 1 it will fall down anyway, so how do you get from 1 to 0 instantaneously?
The vertical strain energy which the building was capable of absorbing would have been a multiple of the total potential energy available from the collapsing section, and indeed of the total PE of the building as a whole. Since it was that strain energy, or more precisely a fraction of it, which was holding the tower up in the first place.
quick figures - I could have made mistakes - but would it have totally collapsed due to a fraction of its mass comprising the smallest sections of steel impacting the largest piece comprising the thickest members after dropping 4m at less than gravitational acceleration. No - nothing like it.
Gordon
QUOTE
Romero appointed Co-Chair to the Presidential Advisory Commission:
http://www.yic.gov/paceea/adcom/bios.html
Yeah, the Presidential Advisory Commission on Educational Excellence for Hispanic Americans,
Along with Jon Secada
Everything's a conspiracy.
Arthur
QUOTE
So if we assume a weight of 18m dropping to a floor used to a static load of 20m and a safety factor of 5 then you can show using an elastic limit of 0.2% deformation over the original length and remembering that there will be a corresponding compression and movement of all the storeys below the impact and that that deformation will also be related to the differing static loads it can be shown that the fall of the upper section would have been arrested after a plastic deformation of about 550mm.
Please explain in more detail how you arrive at these figures.
Arthur
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 28 2005, 03:55 AM)
Foxx,
What those transcripts show is that there was a great deal of confusion as to who was in charge.
Not surprisingly, the US systems of a Federal Govt with VERY POWERFUL States and in large cities, powerful mayors, sorta makes this a given.
Being as you are a Canadian, maybe you aren't that familiar with our govt. But our Federal Govt is not ALL POWERFUL. We are a Federation of STATES and the States retain control of most of what transpires within their borders. Which is why much of what happened on 9/11 fell under the jurisdiction of NY.
What the following shows is confusion as to who was in charge and what authority they had. The fact is, until the congress passed the legislation in question, there was no clear FEDERAL authority to do much of anything.
This whole thing about "destroying evidence" as a crime is ludicrous, because you will note that what you linked to is a NY statute. Thus in a Criminal trial it is the State of NY vs XYZ. But as the quote shows it was NY that decided to haul off the steel. So, assuming the Mayor/Governor signed off on its removal, then NY has eminent domain over the evidence and if it decides to remove it, it is within its legal right to do so.
But these issues were resolved. To late for 9/11, but isn't that how MANY such laws are passed?
The Act gives responsibility to the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) to dispatch teams of experts within 48 hours after major building disasters.
The Act gives the teams a clear mandate to:
Establish the likely technical cause of building failures;
Evaluate procedures used for evacuation and emergency response;
Recommend specific changes to building codes, standards and practices; in addition, recommend changes in emergency response and evacuation procedures; and Make final recommendations within 90 days of completing an investigation.
The Act gives NIST and the teams comprehensive investigative authorities, similar to those of the National Transportation Safety Board, to:
Access the site of a building disaster;
Subpoena evidence;
Access key pieces of evidence such as records and documents; and,
Move and preserve evidence.
The Act ensures that the team's investigations will not impede search and rescue efforts.
The Act establishes clear lines of communication to ensure that the public will be informed throughout the investigation by:
Requiring teams to hold regular briefings on the status of the investigative proceedings and findings; and,
Allowing the Director of NIST to convince a public hearing to take testimony relevant to a team's investigation.
The Act creates a standing advisory committee to oversee the implementation of the Act and evaluate team's duties.
The Act also gives NIST comprehensive authority to complete the investigation of the WTC disaster.
The Act authorizes for each of fiscal years 2003 through 2005 $25 million to remain available until expended to carry out investigation under this Act.
Now I guess it would have been nice if this was in place BEFORE 9/11, but it wasn't.
Complaining that there was confusion before this was passed is sort of a moot point.
Assuming it was a conspiracy involves not only the FBI, FEMA and NIST but many NY officials, and considering the beating NY took, both in lives lost, infrastructure lost, tax revenues lost etc etc one would have to come up with a damn good reason for these officials to be part of a conspiracy to wreck such havoc on their main city and State.
Arthur
But these issues were resolved. To late for 9/11, but isn't that how MANY such laws are passed?
The Act gives responsibility to the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) to dispatch teams of experts within 48 hours after major building disasters.
The Act gives the teams a clear mandate to:
Establish the likely technical cause of building failures;
Evaluate procedures used for evacuation and emergency response;
Recommend specific changes to building codes, standards and practices; in addition, recommend changes in emergency response and evacuation procedures; and Make final recommendations within 90 days of completing an investigation.
The Act gives NIST and the teams comprehensive investigative authorities, similar to those of the National Transportation Safety Board, to:
Access the site of a building disaster;
Subpoena evidence;
Access key pieces of evidence such as records and documents; and,
Move and preserve evidence.
The Act ensures that the team's investigations will not impede search and rescue efforts.
The Act establishes clear lines of communication to ensure that the public will be informed throughout the investigation by:
Requiring teams to hold regular briefings on the status of the investigative proceedings and findings; and,
Allowing the Director of NIST to convince a public hearing to take testimony relevant to a team's investigation.
The Act creates a standing advisory committee to oversee the implementation of the Act and evaluate team's duties.
The Act also gives NIST comprehensive authority to complete the investigation of the WTC disaster.
The Act authorizes for each of fiscal years 2003 through 2005 $25 million to remain available until expended to carry out investigation under this Act.
Now I guess it would have been nice if this was in place BEFORE 9/11, but it wasn't.
Complaining that there was confusion before this was passed is sort of a moot point.
Assuming it was a conspiracy involves not only the FBI, FEMA and NIST but many NY officials, and considering the beating NY took, both in lives lost, infrastructure lost, tax revenues lost etc etc one would have to come up with a damn good reason for these officials to be part of a conspiracy to wreck such havoc on their main city and State.
Arthur
Originally posted by adoucette
What those transcripts show is that there was a great deal of confusion as to who was in charge.
The 'question' being addressed before the House Committee of Science was 'WHO' should carry the 'torch' of the 'NATIONAL CONSTRUCTION SAFETY TEAM ACT' (NCSTA)
NIST has FAILED the qualifications to enact the mandate principles.
It's pretty much assured that NIST will not hold this mandate for much longer...
But we shall see... what we shall see ???
They are LIARS ("No Steel Recovered from WTC 7")
We NEED a BETTER, INDEPENDANT investigating 'authority' who is independent of 'washington-pressure'.
Would you agree ???
BTW, if anybody has time, one way to guessimate (very roughly) is to look at head on car crashes, assume (if you don't know) say both cars at 50 mph, get a rough estimate of the weight of steel involved and how much each car was shortened, etc. What you would end up figuring out is delta - energy / [ (weight of steel) x (length)]
Do not try to compare cars to buildings, cars are designed with crush initiators to control the collapse and make the steel fold (just look at the underside of your hood). If the world trade center was designed like a car then global collapse would be possible.
'Guest' ... No. It wouldn't.
Please explain this wacky theory?
Cars are designed to collapse in a front end accident all the way to the passenger compartment. Rails, hood, and other structure have design features to absorb energy and make them bend not compress. If you do not believe it just look at an inner hood. It will have features with thinner sections to make it bend in a crash . I think you would have to go back to the 1930’s to find a rigid car frame and body.
Would you be good enough to do a calculation, with references (and, if you can bear it, a little more explanation)? It would really be appreciated. I'm sorry if we can't just take your word on this....
BTW, I typically did calculations of the tower that was hit/initiated collapse around Floor 73, which (all other things being equal), is more likely to suffer global collapse.
Would you be good enough to do a calculation, with references (and, if you can bear it, a little more explanation)? It would really be appreciated. I'm sorry if we can't just take your word on this....
BTW, I typically did calculations of the tower that was hit/initiated collapse around Floor 73, which (all other things being equal), is more likely to suffer global collapse.
The stuff about gallileos momentum is interesting for collapse times but this assumes that the floors have mass but no strength and the column and core have either been ignored or have been assumed to have an effective safety factor of 0.
Well, if you're referring to my trying to make sense of Professor Steven Jones complaint about conservation of momentum, my thinking was that the 15.5 second WTC collapse duration figure attributed to Hoffman by Heller, which was awfully close to a more realistic collapse time actually observed (as opposed to the fictional 'Eric Hufschmid collapse time' of about 8.4 secs
) would indeed be very evidential of demolition. However, doing the calculation showed that it was a minor effect, and didn't prove anything, one way or another. The 15.5 sec figure is certainly wrong....
I haven't spent the 15 - 30 minutes to do a similar calculation for WTC 7, but I suspect that when I do, there might indeed be something like a .6 sec delay, if you assume collapse from the topmost floor down. The problem here, though, is that looking at the WTC 7 collapse, it looks like it's going down in an elevator. The collapse clearly occurred at or very near the bottom of the building. So, the theoretical scenario doesn't match at all, and hence it can't really prove anything.
I'm at a loss as to why Professor Jones referred to linear momentum not being conserved, if he can't point to any relavant calculation that reflects this.
The 'question' being addressed before the House Committee of Science was 'WHO' should carry the 'torch' of the 'NATIONAL CONSTRUCTION SAFETY TEAM ACT' (NCSTA)
NIST has FAILED the qualifications to enact the mandate principles.
It's pretty much assured that NIST will not hold this mandate for much longer...
But we shall see... what we shall see ???
They are LIARS ("No Steel Recovered from WTC 7")
We NEED a BETTER, INDEPENDANT investigating 'authority' who is independent of 'washington-pressure'.
Would you agree ???
That's not how I read it.
According to the link;
The 'question' being addressed before the House Committee of Science was 'WHO' should carry the 'torch' of the 'NATIONAL CONSTRUCTION SAFETY TEAM ACT' (NCSTA)
NIST has FAILED the qualifications to enact the mandate principles.
It's pretty much assured that NIST will not hold this mandate for much longer...
But we shall see... what we shall see ???
They are LIARS ("No Steel Recovered from WTC 7")
We NEED a BETTER, INDEPENDANT investigating 'authority' who is independent of 'washington-pressure'.
Would you agree ???
That's not how I read it.
According to the link;
The aftermath of the collapse of the World Trade Center (WTC) revealed serious flaws in how the Federal government carries out investigations of major building failures. The National Science Foundation (NSF), the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), and the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) all were involved in investigating this disaster in some way. However, none of these agencies was prepared to conduct a comprehensive and thorough investigation immediately following the collapse of the WTC buildings. In addition, the Federal efforts that were undertaken to study the building failures were hindered by many impediments: no Federal agency was clearly charged with investigating building failures; nothing ensured that an investigation would begin quickly enough to preserve evidence; no Federal agency had the investigative authority to ensure access to all needed information; nothing ensured that the public was kept informed of the progress of the investigation; and inadequate funding limited the efforts that were undertaken. Families of the victims, outside experts, and NIST itself have called for future investigations to be given additional investigative authorities like those used by the National Transportation Safety Board.
The result of this meeting:
On May 22, a quorum being present, the Committee on Science favorably reported the National Construction Safety Team Act, by a voice vote and recommended its enactment.
What they recommended was that NIST receive the funding.
The current administration also supported the Act and the funding of it and most importantly The Administration supports the intent of H.R. 4687. To this end, the Administration supports vesting NIST with subpoena power to complete full and thorough investigations of major structural failures, which is not what you would want to do if you are hiding something.
Having read the NIST report, I think they did a pretty good job, but I assume people more knowledgable than me will decide this.
What do you mean WE, Kemosabe?
Arthur
Strain energy = (100mg/2* 5.5mm*37) + (100mg x plastic deflection)
average force = 100mg/2
maximum force = 100mg
elastic deformation of storey 92 = 5.5mm (0.2%)
factor to include lower deflections = 37 ( summation of reciprocals of static loads)
Equating and eliminating m to solve for plastic deformation
pd = (9.5*v^2 - 11.75g) / 100g
pd = 0.519mm.
Of course this damage is as likely or more likely to occur in the upper section rather than the lower section, but even half and half it would only amount to 260mm each.
Not quite the three hundred and odd metres they were looking for.
Gordon.
A little more help on the plastic deformation equation.
I think the collapse distances we are using are too small. We keep using 1 floor height, but looking at the damage it would appear that the weak floor between two rigid floors gives way, which would double the distance the intact top would fall before it hit a good floor.
Arthur
What those transcripts show is that there was a great deal of confusion as to who was in charge.
Not surprisingly, the US systems of a Federal Govt with VERY POWERFUL States and in large cities, powerful mayors, sorta makes this a given.
Being as you are a Canadian, maybe you aren't that familiar with our govt. But our Federal Govt is not ALL POWERFUL. We are a Federation of STATES and the States retain control of most of what transpires within their borders. Which is why much of what happened on 9/11 fell under the jurisdiction of NY.
What the following shows is confusion as to who was in charge and what authority they had. The fact is, until the congress passed the legislation in question, there was no clear FEDERAL authority to do much of anything.
This whole thing about "destroying evidence" as a crime is ludicrous, because you will note that what you linked to is a NY statute. Thus in a Criminal trial it is the State of NY vs XYZ. But as the quote shows it was NY that decided to haul off the steel. So, assuming the Mayor/Governor signed off on its removal, then NY has eminent domain over the evidence and if it decides to remove it, it is within its legal right to do so.
QUOTE
Witnesses testified that confusion regarding who was in charge of the investigation and the BPAT's lack of investigative authorities led to delays in deploying the BPAT team, problems in gaining access to the WTC site, an inability to preserve valuable steel evidence from the site, and problems gaining access to information the BPAT requested.
During the hearing Members voiced concern about why the BPAT had not been deployed immediately after the attacks and whether the delay had hindered the team's ability to preserve important evidence. Dr. Corley testified that immediately following the attacks, ASCE began assembling a team of experts of study the disaster. Although this team later became part of the official BPAT that FEMA created, that official designation did not occur until late September. Furthermore, it was only at that time that the team was able to gain access to the disaster site. Dr. Corley believed that that one possible reason for this delay was the uncertain relationship between the BPAT and ongoing search and rescue efforts, as well as the criminal investigation. During the time the team was not present on site, the City of New York decided to haul away and recycle the steel, which could have been useful as evidence for the investigation.
Even after the BPAT was on site and had actively assumed its duties, there was still confusion abut whether the BPAT had the authority to preserve evidence. Mr. Shea said that the BPAT was in charge of gathering the necessary evidence for an investigation. However, Dr. Corley, who led the BPAT team, said that he did not know whether anyone had the authority even to ask the City of New York to stop recycling the steel. When Dr. Bement was asked if NIST could presently sequester evidence for its investigation, he said that NIST could request that evidence be preserved, but that it had no power to enforce the request.
Dr. Astaneh-Asl, who was funded by the National Science Foundation to study the collapse, testified that he experienced the same problems that Dr. Corley's team faced in terms of trying to access the site, and studying and preserving the steel evidence. He testified that he had, without any assistance from any federal agency, directly negotiated with the plants recycling the steel, and it was only because of their cooperation that he was given access to the steel.
Professor Corbett described the consequences of losing pieces of steel evidence. He said with steel from critical areas of the building (such as where the planes hit the building) would help the BPAT make more definitive statements as to the specific cause and chronology of the collapse.
Several witness commented on the problems the BPAT faced in gaining access to information it required as part of its investigation. The BPAT requested access to the WTC building blueprints, design drawings, and maintenance records. It planned to use these to validate physical and photographic evidence and to develop computer models to explain why and how the buildings failed and how similar failures might be avoided in the future. The BPAT did not get immediate access to the full set of these documents and eventually, FEMA had to intercede on behalf of the BPAT. However, there was a significant delay in FEMA making this request. Mr. Wingo testified that FEMA did not ask the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey for blueprints and design specifications for the buildings until December 21, nearly four months after the disaster, and Dr. Corley testified that the BPAT did not receive full copies of the blueprints and design drawings until January 8.
In addition to the structural records, the BPAT team requested video footage from the television networks and tapes of 911 calls from the New York City Police Department. Dr. Corley testified that the BPAT team was only able to obtain from TV networks video footage of the collapse that had been played on air; the networks would not release unaired footage. The BPAT ultimately gave up on attempting to obtain the 911 tapes.
During the hearing Members voiced concern about why the BPAT had not been deployed immediately after the attacks and whether the delay had hindered the team's ability to preserve important evidence. Dr. Corley testified that immediately following the attacks, ASCE began assembling a team of experts of study the disaster. Although this team later became part of the official BPAT that FEMA created, that official designation did not occur until late September. Furthermore, it was only at that time that the team was able to gain access to the disaster site. Dr. Corley believed that that one possible reason for this delay was the uncertain relationship between the BPAT and ongoing search and rescue efforts, as well as the criminal investigation. During the time the team was not present on site, the City of New York decided to haul away and recycle the steel, which could have been useful as evidence for the investigation.
Even after the BPAT was on site and had actively assumed its duties, there was still confusion abut whether the BPAT had the authority to preserve evidence. Mr. Shea said that the BPAT was in charge of gathering the necessary evidence for an investigation. However, Dr. Corley, who led the BPAT team, said that he did not know whether anyone had the authority even to ask the City of New York to stop recycling the steel. When Dr. Bement was asked if NIST could presently sequester evidence for its investigation, he said that NIST could request that evidence be preserved, but that it had no power to enforce the request.
Dr. Astaneh-Asl, who was funded by the National Science Foundation to study the collapse, testified that he experienced the same problems that Dr. Corley's team faced in terms of trying to access the site, and studying and preserving the steel evidence. He testified that he had, without any assistance from any federal agency, directly negotiated with the plants recycling the steel, and it was only because of their cooperation that he was given access to the steel.
Professor Corbett described the consequences of losing pieces of steel evidence. He said with steel from critical areas of the building (such as where the planes hit the building) would help the BPAT make more definitive statements as to the specific cause and chronology of the collapse.
Several witness commented on the problems the BPAT faced in gaining access to information it required as part of its investigation. The BPAT requested access to the WTC building blueprints, design drawings, and maintenance records. It planned to use these to validate physical and photographic evidence and to develop computer models to explain why and how the buildings failed and how similar failures might be avoided in the future. The BPAT did not get immediate access to the full set of these documents and eventually, FEMA had to intercede on behalf of the BPAT. However, there was a significant delay in FEMA making this request. Mr. Wingo testified that FEMA did not ask the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey for blueprints and design specifications for the buildings until December 21, nearly four months after the disaster, and Dr. Corley testified that the BPAT did not receive full copies of the blueprints and design drawings until January 8.
In addition to the structural records, the BPAT team requested video footage from the television networks and tapes of 911 calls from the New York City Police Department. Dr. Corley testified that the BPAT team was only able to obtain from TV networks video footage of the collapse that had been played on air; the networks would not release unaired footage. The BPAT ultimately gave up on attempting to obtain the 911 tapes.
But these issues were resolved. To late for 9/11, but isn't that how MANY such laws are passed?
The Act gives responsibility to the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) to dispatch teams of experts within 48 hours after major building disasters.
The Act gives the teams a clear mandate to:
Establish the likely technical cause of building failures;
Evaluate procedures used for evacuation and emergency response;
Recommend specific changes to building codes, standards and practices; in addition, recommend changes in emergency response and evacuation procedures; and Make final recommendations within 90 days of completing an investigation.
The Act gives NIST and the teams comprehensive investigative authorities, similar to those of the National Transportation Safety Board, to:
Access the site of a building disaster;
Subpoena evidence;
Access key pieces of evidence such as records and documents; and,
Move and preserve evidence.
The Act ensures that the team's investigations will not impede search and rescue efforts.
The Act establishes clear lines of communication to ensure that the public will be informed throughout the investigation by:
Requiring teams to hold regular briefings on the status of the investigative proceedings and findings; and,
Allowing the Director of NIST to convince a public hearing to take testimony relevant to a team's investigation.
The Act creates a standing advisory committee to oversee the implementation of the Act and evaluate team's duties.
The Act also gives NIST comprehensive authority to complete the investigation of the WTC disaster.
The Act authorizes for each of fiscal years 2003 through 2005 $25 million to remain available until expended to carry out investigation under this Act.
Now I guess it would have been nice if this was in place BEFORE 9/11, but it wasn't.
Complaining that there was confusion before this was passed is sort of a moot point.
Assuming it was a conspiracy involves not only the FBI, FEMA and NIST but many NY officials, and considering the beating NY took, both in lives lost, infrastructure lost, tax revenues lost etc etc one would have to come up with a damn good reason for these officials to be part of a conspiracy to wreck such havoc on their main city and State.
Arthur
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Witnesses testified that confusion regarding who was in charge of the investigation and the BPAT's lack of investigative authorities led to delays in deploying the BPAT team, problems in gaining access to the WTC site, an inability to preserve valuable steel evidence from the site, and problems gaining access to information the BPAT requested. During the hearing Members voiced concern about why the BPAT had not been deployed immediately after the attacks and whether the delay had hindered the team's ability to preserve important evidence. Dr. Corley testified that immediately following the attacks, ASCE began assembling a team of experts of study the disaster. Although this team later became part of the official BPAT that FEMA created, that official designation did not occur until late September. Furthermore, it was only at that time that the team was able to gain access to the disaster site. Dr. Corley believed that that one possible reason for this delay was the uncertain relationship between the BPAT and ongoing search and rescue efforts, as well as the criminal investigation. During the time the team was not present on site, the City of New York decided to haul away and recycle the steel, which could have been useful as evidence for the investigation. Even after the BPAT was on site and had actively assumed its duties, there was still confusion abut whether the BPAT had the authority to preserve evidence. Mr. Shea said that the BPAT was in charge of gathering the necessary evidence for an investigation. However, Dr. Corley, who led the BPAT team, said that he did not know whether anyone had the authority even to ask the City of New York to stop recycling the steel. When Dr. Bement was asked if NIST could presently sequester evidence for its investigation, he said that NIST could request that evidence be preserved, but that it had no power to enforce the request. Dr. Astaneh-Asl, who was funded by the National Science Foundation to study the collapse, testified that he experienced the same problems that Dr. Corley's team faced in terms of trying to access the site, and studying and preserving the steel evidence. He testified that he had, without any assistance from any federal agency, directly negotiated with the plants recycling the steel, and it was only because of their cooperation that he was given access to the steel. Professor Corbett described the consequences of losing pieces of steel evidence. He said with steel from critical areas of the building (such as where the planes hit the building) would help the BPAT make more definitive statements as to the specific cause and chronology of the collapse. Several witness commented on the problems the BPAT faced in gaining access to information it required as part of its investigation. The BPAT requested access to the WTC building blueprints, design drawings, and maintenance records. It planned to use these to validate physical and photographic evidence and to develop computer models to explain why and how the buildings failed and how similar failures might be avoided in the future. The BPAT did not get immediate access to the full set of these documents and eventually, FEMA had to intercede on behalf of the BPAT. However, there was a significant delay in FEMA making this request. Mr. Wingo testified that FEMA did not ask the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey for blueprints and design specifications for the buildings until December 21, nearly four months after the disaster, and Dr. Corley testified that the BPAT did not receive full copies of the blueprints and design drawings until January 8. In addition to the structural records, the BPAT team requested video footage from the television networks and tapes of 911 calls from the New York City Police Department. Dr. Corley testified that the BPAT team was only able to obtain from TV networks video footage of the collapse that had been played on air; the networks would not release unaired footage. The BPAT ultimately gave up on attempting to obtain the 911 tapes. |
But these issues were resolved. To late for 9/11, but isn't that how MANY such laws are passed?
The Act gives responsibility to the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) to dispatch teams of experts within 48 hours after major building disasters.
The Act gives the teams a clear mandate to:
Establish the likely technical cause of building failures;
Evaluate procedures used for evacuation and emergency response;
Recommend specific changes to building codes, standards and practices; in addition, recommend changes in emergency response and evacuation procedures; and Make final recommendations within 90 days of completing an investigation.
The Act gives NIST and the teams comprehensive investigative authorities, similar to those of the National Transportation Safety Board, to:
Access the site of a building disaster;
Subpoena evidence;
Access key pieces of evidence such as records and documents; and,
Move and preserve evidence.
The Act ensures that the team's investigations will not impede search and rescue efforts.
The Act establishes clear lines of communication to ensure that the public will be informed throughout the investigation by:
Requiring teams to hold regular briefings on the status of the investigative proceedings and findings; and,
Allowing the Director of NIST to convince a public hearing to take testimony relevant to a team's investigation.
The Act creates a standing advisory committee to oversee the implementation of the Act and evaluate team's duties.
The Act also gives NIST comprehensive authority to complete the investigation of the WTC disaster.
The Act authorizes for each of fiscal years 2003 through 2005 $25 million to remain available until expended to carry out investigation under this Act.
Now I guess it would have been nice if this was in place BEFORE 9/11, but it wasn't.
Complaining that there was confusion before this was passed is sort of a moot point.
Assuming it was a conspiracy involves not only the FBI, FEMA and NIST but many NY officials, and considering the beating NY took, both in lives lost, infrastructure lost, tax revenues lost etc etc one would have to come up with a damn good reason for these officials to be part of a conspiracy to wreck such havoc on their main city and State.
Arthur
Originally posted by adoucette
What those transcripts show is that there was a great deal of confusion as to who was in charge.
The 'question' being addressed before the House Committee of Science was 'WHO' should carry the 'torch' of the 'NATIONAL CONSTRUCTION SAFETY TEAM ACT' (NCSTA)
NIST has FAILED the qualifications to enact the mandate principles.
It's pretty much assured that NIST will not hold this mandate for much longer...
But we shall see... what we shall see ???
They are LIARS ("No Steel Recovered from WTC 7")
We NEED a BETTER, INDEPENDANT investigating 'authority' who is independent of 'washington-pressure'.
Would you agree ???
QUOTE (Foxx+Dec 28 2005, 03:45 AM)
QUOTE (Guest+Dec 28 2005, 03:36 AM)
QUOTE (metamars+Dec 28 2005, 02:51 AM)
BTW, if anybody has time, one way to guessimate (very roughly) is to look at head on car crashes, assume (if you don't know) say both cars at 50 mph, get a rough estimate of the weight of steel involved and how much each car was shortened, etc. What you would end up figuring out is delta - energy / [ (weight of steel) x (length)]
Do not try to compare cars to buildings, cars are designed with crush initiators to control the collapse and make the steel fold (just look at the underside of your hood). If the world trade center was designed like a car then global collapse would be possible.
'Guest' ... No. It wouldn't.
Please explain this wacky theory?
Cars are designed to collapse in a front end accident all the way to the passenger compartment. Rails, hood, and other structure have design features to absorb energy and make them bend not compress. If you do not believe it just look at an inner hood. It will have features with thinner sections to make it bend in a crash . I think you would have to go back to the 1930’s to find a rigid car frame and body.
What did Bush know and when did he know it?
QUOTE
'ABC News' Special Report:
(8:53 AM ET) Tuesday 11 September 2001
[SNIP]
JENNINGS: ...Want to check in very quickly with the president of the United States. John Cochran with the president in Florida. John:
JOHN COCHRAN reporting:
Peter, as you know, the president's down in Florida talking about education. He got out of his hotel suite this morning, was about to leave, reporters saw the White House chief of staff, Andy Card, whisper into his ear. The reporter said to the president, 'Do you know what's going on in New York?' He said he did, and he said he will have something about it later. His first event is about half an hour at an elementary school in Sarasota, Florida.
JENNINGS: Thanks, John. John Cochran with the president...
[SNIP]
ABC Transcript: http://www.fromthewilderness.com/timeline/...news091101.html
(8:53 AM ET) Tuesday 11 September 2001
[SNIP]
JENNINGS: ...Want to check in very quickly with the president of the United States. John Cochran with the president in Florida. John:
JOHN COCHRAN reporting:
Peter, as you know, the president's down in Florida talking about education. He got out of his hotel suite this morning, was about to leave, reporters saw the White House chief of staff, Andy Card, whisper into his ear. The reporter said to the president, 'Do you know what's going on in New York?' He said he did, and he said he will have something about it later. His first event is about half an hour at an elementary school in Sarasota, Florida.
JENNINGS: Thanks, John. John Cochran with the president...
[SNIP]
ABC Transcript: http://www.fromthewilderness.com/timeline/...news091101.html
Common Sense,
Do you know what a hypocrite is??? Let me give you a clue. It's when someone lies about how they feel about all the innocent children in Iraq getting sluaghtered on one side of their mouth, while supporting the lie that got us there in the first place. It was the lie that Muslims terrorists attacked us that led ignoramouses like yourself into justifying the slaughter of all those innocent people, so don't even try to trick me with your BS, I know exactly where your really coming from.
You might be able to fool some of the people in this room, but for most people with intelligence your about as obvious as little bush's sincerity.
If you don't know who did 9/11 then your hopelessly lost in the lies that justified murdering innocent people, remember it was the lie that Bin Laden did 9/11 which justified our going to war in Afghanistan to slaughter 10's of thousands of innocent people, who had nothing to do with the crime.
And people wonder why the current administration is so Nazi like. Of course you'll defend it because like minds share the same philosophy.
ANYBODY, AND I MEAN ANYBODY who denies the fact that the government did 9/11 is lying through their teeth, and that includes you, so don't even waste your breath trying to fool people into thinking otherwise. The facts are OBVIOUS!!! You can't be that mentally deficient. As ignorant as you are, even you know the towers came down via explosives, so quit pretending to be sincere. Your stupid, but not that stupid.
My particular website is just one of thousands and thousands that shine light on what really happened, and you don't even need to go my site to find the information, however in order to save time I've summarized the most relevant information in a very easy to get to place where people can see the indisputable, undeniable truth that the towers were imploded.
Now if you wanted to talk logically, rationally and reasonably with me about the actual HARD EVIDENCE, I'd love to, but you've already shown your hand that you have absolutely no interest in the truth whatsoever.
It sounds like your just another parrot or plant that supports the bush administration and tries to add more lies and confusion into the mix in hopes of keeping people perpetually blind.
Now let me give you another clue about the truth.
You call bush Jesus, well that's another lie, little bush is just one of the many Antichrists running around the world having his way, and if you ever read the bible you'd find that there are many, even today. In fact if you really want to find out who Antichrist is just look in the mirror, then repent, say your sorry and forgive others so you too can be forgiven.
But stop calling bush Jesus. In truth Jesus means the truth, and for now little bush is not into the truth at all. Much like yourself the truth is an enemy of what you stand for, and that's why your so repulsed by the truth not just on my website but by anything that has to do with it.
If you really had common sense you would never speak like such an ignorant $#@!. In order to have common sense you need to have a love for the truth, which is something you don't have right now.
Yeah, in time every knee shall bow, even yours and the truth will be known, even for you, but until that time I guess you'll continue spewing out your obvious lies about what a great person you are for being against the Iraq war, while in reality you support it 100%, because you support the lie that some Muslims did the trade center.
One thing you probably hate anout my website is the fact that I put the entire King James bible on it in audio and text, (which is free by the way. So that anyone can click our site and hear what the scriptures really say.
If they listened to the old and new, they'd discover that God is against lying and murdering innocent people. He said "Don't murder" and "Don't trespass" and "Don't steal" among many other things. You know the same things your buddy bush is doing around the world. And don't even try to fake us out with your phoney baloney pretend act about being against Bush. that's about as obvious a lie as your handle is.
Do you know what a hypocrite is??? Let me give you a clue. It's when someone lies about how they feel about all the innocent children in Iraq getting sluaghtered on one side of their mouth, while supporting the lie that got us there in the first place. It was the lie that Muslims terrorists attacked us that led ignoramouses like yourself into justifying the slaughter of all those innocent people, so don't even try to trick me with your BS, I know exactly where your really coming from.
You might be able to fool some of the people in this room, but for most people with intelligence your about as obvious as little bush's sincerity.
If you don't know who did 9/11 then your hopelessly lost in the lies that justified murdering innocent people, remember it was the lie that Bin Laden did 9/11 which justified our going to war in Afghanistan to slaughter 10's of thousands of innocent people, who had nothing to do with the crime.
And people wonder why the current administration is so Nazi like. Of course you'll defend it because like minds share the same philosophy.
ANYBODY, AND I MEAN ANYBODY who denies the fact that the government did 9/11 is lying through their teeth, and that includes you, so don't even waste your breath trying to fool people into thinking otherwise. The facts are OBVIOUS!!! You can't be that mentally deficient. As ignorant as you are, even you know the towers came down via explosives, so quit pretending to be sincere. Your stupid, but not that stupid.
My particular website is just one of thousands and thousands that shine light on what really happened, and you don't even need to go my site to find the information, however in order to save time I've summarized the most relevant information in a very easy to get to place where people can see the indisputable, undeniable truth that the towers were imploded.
Now if you wanted to talk logically, rationally and reasonably with me about the actual HARD EVIDENCE, I'd love to, but you've already shown your hand that you have absolutely no interest in the truth whatsoever.
It sounds like your just another parrot or plant that supports the bush administration and tries to add more lies and confusion into the mix in hopes of keeping people perpetually blind.
Now let me give you another clue about the truth.
You call bush Jesus, well that's another lie, little bush is just one of the many Antichrists running around the world having his way, and if you ever read the bible you'd find that there are many, even today. In fact if you really want to find out who Antichrist is just look in the mirror, then repent, say your sorry and forgive others so you too can be forgiven.
But stop calling bush Jesus. In truth Jesus means the truth, and for now little bush is not into the truth at all. Much like yourself the truth is an enemy of what you stand for, and that's why your so repulsed by the truth not just on my website but by anything that has to do with it.
If you really had common sense you would never speak like such an ignorant $#@!. In order to have common sense you need to have a love for the truth, which is something you don't have right now.
Yeah, in time every knee shall bow, even yours and the truth will be known, even for you, but until that time I guess you'll continue spewing out your obvious lies about what a great person you are for being against the Iraq war, while in reality you support it 100%, because you support the lie that some Muslims did the trade center.
One thing you probably hate anout my website is the fact that I put the entire King James bible on it in audio and text, (which is free by the way. So that anyone can click our site and hear what the scriptures really say.
If they listened to the old and new, they'd discover that God is against lying and murdering innocent people. He said "Don't murder" and "Don't trespass" and "Don't steal" among many other things. You know the same things your buddy bush is doing around the world. And don't even try to fake us out with your phoney baloney pretend act about being against Bush. that's about as obvious a lie as your handle is.
QUOTE
So if we assume a weight of 18m dropping to a floor used to a static load of 20m and a safety factor of 5 then you can show using an elastic limit of 0.2% deformation over the original length and remembering that there will be a corresponding compression and movement of all the stories below the impact and that that deformation will also be related to the differing static loads it can be shown that the fall of the upper section would have been arrested after a plastic deformation of about 550mm.
Would you be good enough to do a calculation, with references (and, if you can bear it, a little more explanation)? It would really be appreciated. I'm sorry if we can't just take your word on this....
BTW, I typically did calculations of the tower that was hit/initiated collapse around Floor 73, which (all other things being equal), is more likely to suffer global collapse.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| So if we assume a weight of 18m dropping to a floor used to a static load of 20m and a safety factor of 5 then you can show using an elastic limit of 0.2% deformation over the original length and remembering that there will be a corresponding compression and movement of all the stories below the impact and that that deformation will also be related to the differing static loads it can be shown that the fall of the upper section would have been arrested after a plastic deformation of about 550mm. |
Would you be good enough to do a calculation, with references (and, if you can bear it, a little more explanation)? It would really be appreciated. I'm sorry if we can't just take your word on this....
BTW, I typically did calculations of the tower that was hit/initiated collapse around Floor 73, which (all other things being equal), is more likely to suffer global collapse.
The stuff about gallileos momentum is interesting for collapse times but this assumes that the floors have mass but no strength and the column and core have either been ignored or have been assumed to have an effective safety factor of 0.
Well, if you're referring to my trying to make sense of Professor Steven Jones complaint about conservation of momentum, my thinking was that the 15.5 second WTC collapse duration figure attributed to Hoffman by Heller, which was awfully close to a more realistic collapse time actually observed (as opposed to the fictional 'Eric Hufschmid collapse time' of about 8.4 secs
I haven't spent the 15 - 30 minutes to do a similar calculation for WTC 7, but I suspect that when I do, there might indeed be something like a .6 sec delay, if you assume collapse from the topmost floor down. The problem here, though, is that looking at the WTC 7 collapse, it looks like it's going down in an elevator. The collapse clearly occurred at or very near the bottom of the building. So, the theoretical scenario doesn't match at all, and hence it can't really prove anything.
I'm at a loss as to why Professor Jones referred to linear momentum not being conserved, if he can't point to any relavant calculation that reflects this.
QUOTE (Foxx+Dec 28 2005, 04:29 AM)
QUOTE
Originally posted by adoucette
What those transcripts show is that there was a great deal of confusion as to who was in charge.
What those transcripts show is that there was a great deal of confusion as to who was in charge.
The 'question' being addressed before the House Committee of Science was 'WHO' should carry the 'torch' of the 'NATIONAL CONSTRUCTION SAFETY TEAM ACT' (NCSTA)
NIST has FAILED the qualifications to enact the mandate principles.
It's pretty much assured that NIST will not hold this mandate for much longer...
But we shall see... what we shall see ???
They are LIARS ("No Steel Recovered from WTC 7")
We NEED a BETTER, INDEPENDANT investigating 'authority' who is independent of 'washington-pressure'.
Would you agree ???
That's not how I read it.
According to the link;
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Originally posted by adoucette What those transcripts show is that there was a great deal of confusion as to who was in charge. |
The 'question' being addressed before the House Committee of Science was 'WHO' should carry the 'torch' of the 'NATIONAL CONSTRUCTION SAFETY TEAM ACT' (NCSTA)
NIST has FAILED the qualifications to enact the mandate principles.
It's pretty much assured that NIST will not hold this mandate for much longer...
But we shall see... what we shall see ???
They are LIARS ("No Steel Recovered from WTC 7")
We NEED a BETTER, INDEPENDANT investigating 'authority' who is independent of 'washington-pressure'.
Would you agree ???
That's not how I read it.
According to the link;
The aftermath of the collapse of the World Trade Center (WTC) revealed serious flaws in how the Federal government carries out investigations of major building failures. The National Science Foundation (NSF), the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), and the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) all were involved in investigating this disaster in some way. However, none of these agencies was prepared to conduct a comprehensive and thorough investigation immediately following the collapse of the WTC buildings. In addition, the Federal efforts that were undertaken to study the building failures were hindered by many impediments: no Federal agency was clearly charged with investigating building failures; nothing ensured that an investigation would begin quickly enough to preserve evidence; no Federal agency had the investigative authority to ensure access to all needed information; nothing ensured that the public was kept informed of the progress of the investigation; and inadequate funding limited the efforts that were undertaken. Families of the victims, outside experts, and NIST itself have called for future investigations to be given additional investigative authorities like those used by the National Transportation Safety Board.
The result of this meeting:
On May 22, a quorum being present, the Committee on Science favorably reported the National Construction Safety Team Act, by a voice vote and recommended its enactment.
What they recommended was that NIST receive the funding.
The current administration also supported the Act and the funding of it and most importantly The Administration supports the intent of H.R. 4687. To this end, the Administration supports vesting NIST with subpoena power to complete full and thorough investigations of major structural failures, which is not what you would want to do if you are hiding something.
Having read the NIST report, I think they did a pretty good job, but I assume people more knowledgable than me will decide this.
QUOTE
We NEED a BETTER, INDEPENDANT investigating 'authority' who is independent of 'washington-pressure'.
What do you mean WE, Kemosabe?
Arthur
Common sense,
I almost forgot, here's the link http://www.iwilltryit.com/
when you get there turn your speakers on, then click on the bible link and you can go to any book chapter and verse. You might learn something if you open up your ears. You might learn that the Lord told us to love one another and speak the truth, not murder, steal, lie and invade other countries to steal their oil.
Now I know the truth is your enemy for now, but maybe that will start changing in the near future and then you can get some knowledge.
I almost forgot, here's the link http://www.iwilltryit.com/
when you get there turn your speakers on, then click on the bible link and you can go to any book chapter and verse. You might learn something if you open up your ears. You might learn that the Lord told us to love one another and speak the truth, not murder, steal, lie and invade other countries to steal their oil.
Now I know the truth is your enemy for now, but maybe that will start changing in the near future and then you can get some knowledge.
You're making me do this at this time of night!!!!!!
Expect mistakes.
kinetic energy = (19m /2) *v^2
m = mass of 1 storey (assume roof weighs two storeys btw)
v = velocity (about 8m/s)
g = 9.81ms^-2
Strain energy = (100mg/2* 5.5mm*37) + (100mg x plastic deflection)
average force = 100mg/2
maximum force = 100mg
elastic deformation of storey 92 = 5.5mm (0.2%)
factor to include lower deflections = 37 ( summation of reciprocals of static loads)
Equating and eliminating m to solve for plastic deformation
pd = (9.5*v^2 - 11.75g) / 100g
pd = 0.519mm.
Of course this damage is as likely or more likely to occur in the upper section rather than the lower section, but even half and half it would only amount to 260mm each.
Not quite the three hundred and odd metres they were looking for.
Gordon.
Expect mistakes.
kinetic energy = (19m /2) *v^2
m = mass of 1 storey (assume roof weighs two storeys btw)
v = velocity (about 8m/s)
g = 9.81ms^-2
Strain energy = (100mg/2* 5.5mm*37) + (100mg x plastic deflection)
average force = 100mg/2
maximum force = 100mg
elastic deformation of storey 92 = 5.5mm (0.2%)
factor to include lower deflections = 37 ( summation of reciprocals of static loads)
Equating and eliminating m to solve for plastic deformation
pd = (9.5*v^2 - 11.75g) / 100g
pd = 0.519mm.
Of course this damage is as likely or more likely to occur in the upper section rather than the lower section, but even half and half it would only amount to 260mm each.
Not quite the three hundred and odd metres they were looking for.
Gordon.
adoucette,
Regarding the resistance formula. Let me make this real easy for you.
If you drop something from 1350 feet up and there is nothing in the way it will fall at free fall speed. Understand. Nothing but air is in the way, virtually no obstruction.
Now let's just say there is something in the path of the object that you dropped and object hits that obstruction on the way down. That obstruction will delay the object from hitting the ground, how much or how little depends upon how much mass is contained in the obstruction.
Are you able to grasp this yet, or is this just too complicated?
Free fall means no obstruction, hence free fall speed, (fast) and we'll call it delayed fall because something got in the way, therefore it slowed the rate of decent down.
Now if your able to comprehend the fact that there is a difference between free fall speed and obstructed falls lets move on the the towers.
Is the term resistance too hard to comprehend? OK put on your little thinking cap and try to pay attention.
Lets take an empty Pepsi can, put it on the ground. Then take another empty Pepsi can, hold it a couple of feet above the empty one and drop it straight down so that it hits the empty Pepsi can.
GUESS WHAT??? OH MY GOD!!! The empty can on the ground RESISTED THE FALL.
OK, not satisfied. Take a full Pepsi can and drop it on the empty one and see what happens. Even though the full can weighs many times more than the empty one it still didn't completely demolish the empty can. Yeah it bent it up, but guess what?
It RESISTED THE FALL.
Any form of mass will resist the free fall of an object depending upon the weight and many other factors.
But in your make believe fantasy world, physics, gravity and mathematics took a vacation on 9/11, unless of course you think the man in the cave suspended those laws.
Regarding the resistance formula. Let me make this real easy for you.
If you drop something from 1350 feet up and there is nothing in the way it will fall at free fall speed. Understand. Nothing but air is in the way, virtually no obstruction.
Now let's just say there is something in the path of the object that you dropped and object hits that obstruction on the way down. That obstruction will delay the object from hitting the ground, how much or how little depends upon how much mass is contained in the obstruction.
Are you able to grasp this yet, or is this just too complicated?
Free fall means no obstruction, hence free fall speed, (fast) and we'll call it delayed fall because something got in the way, therefore it slowed the rate of decent down.
Now if your able to comprehend the fact that there is a difference between free fall speed and obstructed falls lets move on the the towers.
Is the term resistance too hard to comprehend? OK put on your little thinking cap and try to pay attention.
Lets take an empty Pepsi can, put it on the ground. Then take another empty Pepsi can, hold it a couple of feet above the empty one and drop it straight down so that it hits the empty Pepsi can.
GUESS WHAT??? OH MY GOD!!! The empty can on the ground RESISTED THE FALL.
OK, not satisfied. Take a full Pepsi can and drop it on the empty one and see what happens. Even though the full can weighs many times more than the empty one it still didn't completely demolish the empty can. Yeah it bent it up, but guess what?
It RESISTED THE FALL.
Any form of mass will resist the free fall of an object depending upon the weight and many other factors.
But in your make believe fantasy world, physics, gravity and mathematics took a vacation on 9/11, unless of course you think the man in the cave suspended those laws.
and that does not even consider the inertia of the building which must be overcome in order to move a huge proportion of the building downwards.
Now that would be an interesting momentum equivalence equation.
G
Now that would be an interesting momentum equivalence equation.
G
QUOTE (gordon.+Dec 28 2005, 05:47 AM)
Strain energy = (100mg/2* 5.5mm*37) + (100mg x plastic deflection)
average force = 100mg/2
maximum force = 100mg
elastic deformation of storey 92 = 5.5mm (0.2%)
factor to include lower deflections = 37 ( summation of reciprocals of static loads)
Equating and eliminating m to solve for plastic deformation
pd = (9.5*v^2 - 11.75g) / 100g
pd = 0.519mm.
Of course this damage is as likely or more likely to occur in the upper section rather than the lower section, but even half and half it would only amount to 260mm each.
Not quite the three hundred and odd metres they were looking for.
Gordon.
A little more help on the plastic deformation equation.
I think the collapse distances we are using are too small. We keep using 1 floor height, but looking at the damage it would appear that the weak floor between two rigid floors gives way, which would double the distance the intact top would fall before it hit a good floor.
Arthur
gordon,
I found the exact equation on several sites. Jones did one and there were some others that proved mathematically without any doubt that was impossible.
But even common sense, I mean real common sense, (not the joker on this board), but real common sense tells us that even if the top of the tower collapsed at most it would bend and probably break off, whereas falling straight down into perfect symetry is rediculous.
That's how you know when people on this board or any where else are legitimate or not. If they were truly honest they might say they're not sure, but it does look suspicious, but to defend the governments fairy tale, which has no place in reality just shows where the people are coming from.
I found the exact equation on several sites. Jones did one and there were some others that proved mathematically without any doubt that was impossible.
But even common sense, I mean real common sense, (not the joker on this board), but real common sense tells us that even if the top of the tower collapsed at most it would bend and probably break off, whereas falling straight down into perfect symetry is rediculous.
That's how you know when people on this board or any where else are legitimate or not. If they were truly honest they might say they're not sure, but it does look suspicious, but to defend the governments fairy tale, which has no place in reality just shows where the people are coming from.
adoucette,
What about the lower floors that were UNHEATED? You got at least 60 to 70 floors or more that hadn't been damaged, they were still strong and intact, so that if the top floors did crash on them, don't you think they would have RESISTED at least a little? Come on now, try to remember to put on your thinking cap.
Those remaining floor structures were EXTREMELY STRONG and would have RESISTED the top floors, even enough to where there was some delay, OK how about a little delay?
BUT THERE WAS NO DELAY AT ALL, WHICH PROVES THE LOWER FLOORS DISINTEGRATED BEFORE AND DURING THE TIME THE TOP FLOORS COLLAPSED ON THEM.
That alone is undeniable absolute proof that no one can get around.
It's the free fall speed that nails it, not to mention all the other mountains of evidence.
What about the lower floors that were UNHEATED? You got at least 60 to 70 floors or more that hadn't been damaged, they were still strong and intact, so that if the top floors did crash on them, don't you think they would have RESISTED at least a little? Come on now, try to remember to put on your thinking cap.
Those remaining floor structures were EXTREMELY STRONG and would have RESISTED the top floors, even enough to where there was some delay, OK how about a little delay?
BUT THERE WAS NO DELAY AT ALL, WHICH PROVES THE LOWER FLOORS DISINTEGRATED BEFORE AND DURING THE TIME THE TOP FLOORS COLLAPSED ON THEM.
That alone is undeniable absolute proof that no one can get around.
It's the free fall speed that nails it, not to mention all the other mountains of evidence.
Steve,
I edited the previous post before I saw this one, I realized as I was getting into bed that Gordon had accounted for the damaged columns, so I took that part out.
There WAS a delay. It did NOT fall at Free Fall speeds. The tube within a tube design is what kept it falling vertically, not magic.
Arthur
I edited the previous post before I saw this one, I realized as I was getting into bed that Gordon had accounted for the damaged columns, so I took that part out.
There WAS a delay. It did NOT fall at Free Fall speeds. The tube within a tube design is what kept it falling vertically, not magic.
Arthur
Arthur
The core had suffered a pretty good blow with ~25% of the columns destroyed
Yes but this damage would likely not extend much below the collision point. The lower section upon which the upper section impacts would be relatively unscathed.
The remaining columns were heated, some of them fairly high > ~500 C, though on average, I'd say they were more like ~250 C, still that's a considerable loss in yield strength.
So to say they could still hold 5 times what they were originally holding is not accurate.
That is true and that would effectively reduce the maximum load which that area could endure. By how much and where, we could argue all day, but there would be a limit on the total effect and I would doubt any analysis that showed the effect was widely distributed in the lower sections.
I think the collapse distances we are using are too small. We keep using 1 floor height, but looking at the damage it would appear that the weak floor between two rigid floors gives way, which would double the distance the intact top would fall before it hit a good floor.
That is the problem we have in the absence of a feasible collapse initiation mechanism, but I have yet to see anything that bears scrutiny. I could dispute the use of g in calculating the initial impact velocity for instance since heating of the steel would be a gradual process and this would not bring on sudden and large accelerations in the absence of some mechanical input.(load shifts eg)
But by all means alter the equation and see what happens.
The problem that you will run into is that the strain energy absorbed by a steel member under normal load conditions is only 4% of its total capacity within the elastic limit assuming a factor of safety of 5.
So the steel could absorb 25 times the total potential energy of the building and this could be done within the elastic limit. Plastically the sky is the limit as to strain energy, so it would be better to use power so as to bring in a time frame.
But what would be the point. double the drop - quadruple the velocity- reduce 5 stories below the collision point to a FOS of 3 to simulate a massive temperature rise - you still won't increase 500mm to 300m.
And even if you did manage it the top section would be destroyed more readily than the stronger bottom section, (stronger because of temperature and csa) and would thus lose mass and thus directed energy.
And even if you did manage to give the top section sufficient initial impetus to reach ground level it would not exhibit an acceleration but rather a deceleration upon impact.
The core had suffered a pretty good blow with ~25% of the columns destroyed
Yes but this damage would likely not extend much below the collision point. The lower section upon which the upper section impacts would be relatively unscathed.
The remaining columns were heated, some of them fairly high > ~500 C, though on average, I'd say they were more like ~250 C, still that's a considerable loss in yield strength.
So to say they could still hold 5 times what they were originally holding is not accurate.
That is true and that would effectively reduce the maximum load which that area could endure. By how much and where, we could argue all day, but there would be a limit on the total effect and I would doubt any analysis that showed the effect was widely distributed in the lower sections.
I think the collapse distances we are using are too small. We keep using 1 floor height, but looking at the damage it would appear that the weak floor between two rigid floors gives way, which would double the distance the intact top would fall before it hit a good floor.
That is the problem we have in the absence of a feasible collapse initiation mechanism, but I have yet to see anything that bears scrutiny. I could dispute the use of g in calculating the initial impact velocity for instance since heating of the steel would be a gradual process and this would not bring on sudden and large accelerations in the absence of some mechanical input.(load shifts eg)
But by all means alter the equation and see what happens.
The problem that you will run into is that the strain energy absorbed by a steel member under normal load conditions is only 4% of its total capacity within the elastic limit assuming a factor of safety of 5.
So the steel could absorb 25 times the total potential energy of the building and this could be done within the elastic limit. Plastically the sky is the limit as to strain energy, so it would be better to use power so as to bring in a time frame.
But what would be the point. double the drop - quadruple the velocity- reduce 5 stories below the collision point to a FOS of 3 to simulate a massive temperature rise - you still won't increase 500mm to 300m.
And even if you did manage it the top section would be destroyed more readily than the stronger bottom section, (stronger because of temperature and csa) and would thus lose mass and thus directed energy.
And even if you did manage to give the top section sufficient initial impetus to reach ground level it would not exhibit an acceleration but rather a deceleration upon impact.
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