QUOTE (Foxx+Dec 20 2005, 05:26 AM)
QUOTE (Larry Silverstein+Dec 20 2005, 04:58 AM)
QUOTE
"Well, errrr.... ummmm.... ahhh.... As for 'myself' the reason that I spend so much time trying to convince 'idiots' that they are 'idiots' is simply because I CARE SO MUCH for TRUTH, that I feel it is MY DUTY to refute 'idiots'."
The reason is that you are very much interested in protecting this administration and those that perpetrated this attack, you by all means wish to make sure that as many as possible may not see truth.
Ohhh yes sheeple, just go to sleep all is well, we are here to help you. Sparticus is at the gates and Crassius is here to save the country, just trust him, you will see.
The owner admitting that he had wtc blown up on national tv, that was as good as it gets, how very brash to just admitt it, they really feel like they can do and say anything as the media will NEVER show the truth.
Building 7 is the smoking gun, FEMA said that they can not explain it, I can, controled demolition. Wow that was very difficult.
Heh... Larry
Personally, I don't put too much 'emphasis' on your 'pull it' statement. As far as I am concerned it was just a 'fall-back' position gone horribly wrong...
The 'fall back' position being that - in the event 'they' figger-out WTC 7 was 'pulled' we have testimony widely-reported that... "Yeah, so we 'pulled' 7... so what... it was a dangerous building... HAD to come down! We told you we were going to 'pull it' and we did... what's the problem?"
'Cept they forgot that it could NOT have been 'pulled' on that VERY DAY... and especially by 'spooks in firefighter costumes' who told everyone to 'move back now'.
Too bad no one got the names and badge numbers of those 'fire-fighter costume-wearin' guys'.
Meanwhile, we have another anonymous 'do-gooder' on the other side of the complex picking up 'magical passports' and finding the nearest FBI officer to hand them to.
Surprising really that they didn't find another magical multiplying koran and suicide note next to it?
Hey... if you are in the market for a bridge... I may just be able to help you out.
Lemme know?
Nope sorry pull it is a demolition term. When the owner admitted that he had the building destroyed, that is enough for me and many others,
You shills are trying and grasping at straws on this one, nope this is glarring and an abomination that you protect these people, this says quite a lot about who you really are and why you are here.
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 20 2005, 05:41 AM)
QUOTE
'Cept they forgot that it could NOT have been 'pulled' on that VERY DAY... and especially by 'spooks in firefighter costumes' who told everyone to 'move back now'.
Except the firefighters in Manhatten is a pretty small group. I'd suspect that most of them know the other groups. Pretty hard to come up with imposter firefighters and not have it fairly quickly spotted by the other firefighters in the area.
You are REALLY grasping at straws.
Arthur
Yep ... Mayberry City, everyone
Everyone knows everyone else in N'Yark.
Nope, but firefighters are a pretty tight community.
And you might be surprised to find out how many firefighters are relatives of other firefighters.
Its a sorta unique job.
Arthur
And you might be surprised to find out how many firefighters are relatives of other firefighters.
Its a sorta unique job.
Arthur
QUOTE (Foxx+Dec 20 2005, 04:13 AM)
The time each post is made is registered at the top of each post.
I made my above post to check to compare the 'forum time' (what I see listed as the 'posted time' on my screen) with the actual time it is where I am.
This might be different for others, I suppose, depending on whether you can set 'forum posting time' with your own local time?
I haven't checked.
When I posted the above message the 'forum' says the time I posted is 8 hrs ahead of the actual time in my area. (Pacific Time Zone).
Now YID, according to the 'forum times' of your posts (that I see on my machine)... You have made a total of 23 posts over the course of the last 18 hours (since I made my last post yesterday).
That's really got to be some kind of record !
It seems (to me) like a very 'odd' posting schedule...
...for someone to be allegedly 'debating' an issue (which you seem to be 'totally convinced' is 'utter bunk').
This is something that always has struck me as 'odd' about you government theory apologists.
For those (who imply that they are debating with 'idiots' )... you seem to spend an awful lot of your time 'debating with idiots'.
Of course, you may have some psychological reason for spending such an inordinate amount of time conversing with 'idiots'... But I'm trying to understand WHY ANYONE would expend such energy towards such activities. Doesn't make sense (to me).
My apologies to any visiting here that 'believe' there was some POD attached to the WTC planes (or that the planes were holograms).
However... I personally feel that such theories are 'bunk'.
Now I could BE 'wrong' on that issue, but based upon my own 'investigation' (and looking at BOTH sides of those issues) I, PERSONALLY FEEL that those are errors.
Given my belief, I feel it would be a complete WASTE of MY TIME to go to Phil Jayhans 'POD' site and begin 'debating' with some of those there (who are utterly convinced there was a POD)... spending countless hours trying to 'debunk' or refute those die-hard 'believers'.
Prior to my 'conversion' I had never even heard of alternative 'conspiracy theories'.
Consequently, I never went looking for 'alternative conspiracy' sites (or forums).
I do recall Bush stating something to the effect of...
"Conspiracy Theorists are no better than the terrorists who attacked us".
At the time, (although I had no concept of what these 'alternative conspiracists' were stating), I recall thinking to myself...
"That's an 'odd' statement for the POTUS to be making publicly? Obviously anyone suggesting alternative 'Conspiracy Theories' MUST BE JUST wacked-out idiots!"
Given such a thought, (which at that time I believed to be TRUE), I can tell you MOST CERTAINLY... I definately WOULDN'T have WASTED my time (especially the inordinate amounts that YID, Schneibster, adoucette, and the like, do) trying to convince 'idiots' that they are 'idiots'.
For someone to expend such energies in such a direction makes absolutely NO SENSE (to me).
Now, when I look at YID's expenditure today -
23 posts over the course of the last 18 hours
I REALLY HAVE TO WONDER... (apart from some psychological factors that I do not suffer from... or understand)...
What DRIVES these people to spend countless hours and energy trying to convince 'idiots' that they are 'idiots' ?????????????????????????
Well... I MIGHT do it... IF I was paid to?
That does not include the posts made at Pravda by Yesitdid. If it is not the same person they are from the same agency.
http://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.php3?...798#post1699798
I made my above post to check to compare the 'forum time' (what I see listed as the 'posted time' on my screen) with the actual time it is where I am.
This might be different for others, I suppose, depending on whether you can set 'forum posting time' with your own local time?
I haven't checked.
When I posted the above message the 'forum' says the time I posted is 8 hrs ahead of the actual time in my area. (Pacific Time Zone).
Now YID, according to the 'forum times' of your posts (that I see on my machine)... You have made a total of 23 posts over the course of the last 18 hours (since I made my last post yesterday).
That's really got to be some kind of record !
It seems (to me) like a very 'odd' posting schedule...
...for someone to be allegedly 'debating' an issue (which you seem to be 'totally convinced' is 'utter bunk').
This is something that always has struck me as 'odd' about you government theory apologists.
For those (who imply that they are debating with 'idiots' )... you seem to spend an awful lot of your time 'debating with idiots'.
Of course, you may have some psychological reason for spending such an inordinate amount of time conversing with 'idiots'... But I'm trying to understand WHY ANYONE would expend such energy towards such activities. Doesn't make sense (to me).
My apologies to any visiting here that 'believe' there was some POD attached to the WTC planes (or that the planes were holograms).
However... I personally feel that such theories are 'bunk'.
Now I could BE 'wrong' on that issue, but based upon my own 'investigation' (and looking at BOTH sides of those issues) I, PERSONALLY FEEL that those are errors.
Given my belief, I feel it would be a complete WASTE of MY TIME to go to Phil Jayhans 'POD' site and begin 'debating' with some of those there (who are utterly convinced there was a POD)... spending countless hours trying to 'debunk' or refute those die-hard 'believers'.
Prior to my 'conversion' I had never even heard of alternative 'conspiracy theories'.
Consequently, I never went looking for 'alternative conspiracy' sites (or forums).
I do recall Bush stating something to the effect of...
"Conspiracy Theorists are no better than the terrorists who attacked us".
At the time, (although I had no concept of what these 'alternative conspiracists' were stating), I recall thinking to myself...
"That's an 'odd' statement for the POTUS to be making publicly? Obviously anyone suggesting alternative 'Conspiracy Theories' MUST BE JUST wacked-out idiots!"
Given such a thought, (which at that time I believed to be TRUE), I can tell you MOST CERTAINLY... I definately WOULDN'T have WASTED my time (especially the inordinate amounts that YID, Schneibster, adoucette, and the like, do) trying to convince 'idiots' that they are 'idiots'.
For someone to expend such energies in such a direction makes absolutely NO SENSE (to me).
Now, when I look at YID's expenditure today -
23 posts over the course of the last 18 hours
I REALLY HAVE TO WONDER... (apart from some psychological factors that I do not suffer from... or understand)...
What DRIVES these people to spend countless hours and energy trying to convince 'idiots' that they are 'idiots' ?????????????????????????
Well... I MIGHT do it... IF I was paid to?
That does not include the posts made at Pravda by Yesitdid. If it is not the same person they are from the same agency.
http://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.php3?...798#post1699798
QUOTE (shill+Dec 20 2005, 05:46 AM)
click here for FREE VIDEO! a REALTIME RECORDING OF THE EVENTS OF SEPTEMBER 11TH, ie. 911
okay? if you really think it's great footage(which i certainly do. the very best i've seen at putting you right there, .....in instant replay. the whole show(for the first tower, anyway. i still haven't seen the whole thing), then you might wanna shoot the CREATOR(ie. god) a few MEASLY bucks. this twenty dollar investment could help save the american taxpayer literally BILLIONS, if not, TRILLIONS of DOLLARS, $$$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!
you are free to copy and distribute this footage, so, if you get ten freinds in on it, it will only cost you 2$.
mind you, you could also download it for free, and make copies for free.
that's what i'm doing.
if things work out, i'm going to (eventually) buy rick spiegal a second hand hyundai pony as a gift. (hey, it's the thought that counts!)
another shill, very funny
okay? if you really think it's great footage(which i certainly do. the very best i've seen at putting you right there, .....in instant replay. the whole show(for the first tower, anyway. i still haven't seen the whole thing), then you might wanna shoot the CREATOR(ie. god) a few MEASLY bucks. this twenty dollar investment could help save the american taxpayer literally BILLIONS, if not, TRILLIONS of DOLLARS, $$$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!
you are free to copy and distribute this footage, so, if you get ten freinds in on it, it will only cost you 2$.
mind you, you could also download it for free, and make copies for free.
that's what i'm doing.
if things work out, i'm going to (eventually) buy rick spiegal a second hand hyundai pony as a gift. (hey, it's the thought that counts!)
another shill, very funny
QUOTE (apologist+Dec 20 2005, 05:26 AM)
QUOTE (sophis+Dec 20 2005, 03:25 AM)
well...
thanks everyone for showing such great interest in this basic physics thread.
i really like physics. it's the coolest.
here's some basic physics.
things cannot exist and yet not exist. that is physically impossible in our 3D over time matrix.
there were planes.
there were fireballs and fires.
there were people and politics(a very real source of high speed energy reactions. awwww. they don't teach that one at illuminati thought indoctrination machines?).
there were sounds.
light bounced through the matrix according to the laws of mass and gravity. this was recorded from hundreds, if not thousands of sources.
there were helicopters.
there were flashes of light.
there were HUGE sound energies being produced in the absence of visibly detectable motion.
there are recordings of the sound energy produced by the actions of the towers.
there is a total energy sink.
there were very pointed ninety degree ejections well below the collapse zone.
there was white smoke at the base of the tower.
explosions were reported(these reports exist).
flashes were reported.
israeli 'art students' were arrested.
gag orders were issued to firemen.
evidence was detroyed.
this all happened. i could go on and on with this stuff. just off the top of my head.
i could also start mentioning the reality of neocon/mulism sympathiser/financers, like grover norquist, and the mysterious organisations like the safari club, which show some very strong suadi-american ties, but then, i'd have to do even MORE research into stinking politics, which i hate.
i like physics. so clean. it doesn't lie, once you get the right input.
there was a pattern created by the dynamic interaction of energy conversions. this pattern, although highly chaotic, does have some aspects of predictability with a high degree of accuracy. example. if the towers fell in three seconds, there could be no argument of resistance, as it would be a negative number. of course, advanced computer modelling CAN recreate these scenarios. however, the output is only as good as the input, and in the case of the towers, this data is affected by people and politics(see above) even more than the vast physical complexity.
the complexity of a tower collapse pales compared to the collapse of a society.
i would like to point out that a shill can be aware that he is a shill, or not. some shills are unaware that they have been 'programmed' to do a task. or an already existing position taken by the shill is used by the GRIFTER, who is the real brains behind the GRIFT.
i am not rick, the 911eyewitness guy. rick would have to be a grifter for me to be his shill. he seems like a businessman to me. i thought 'conservatives' LIKED entrepeneurs???
i guess i AM confused.
i haven't even watched the whole movie. i fell asleep at the wheel. it's not easy trying to keep up with a bunch of paid experts. i did watch the whole of the first tower footage, though. simply awesome. i would be a happy shill for this movie. BUY IT! pay rick. he is an american hero.
while i'm at it, i'll shill for the lord of the rings trilogy, too. i didn't think they could do the books justice, but they came damn close.
oh, yeah, and see 'waking life', too. great flick(although it makes me a little dizzy. that animation style is irritating).
i don't know.
i think i attacked no-one here.
except people who call themselves conservatives, but act like extreme left-wing dictators.
there is a simple logical argument here.
which things that exist in my list would you say don't exist?
are discussions of existance political or physical?
i wouldn't want to make a logical error.
Yep so the official story is bs, they pulled building 7 so what, well that is the crux of the problem I would say.
You can pull on many things, but to say we decided to pull it and then watched the building come down seems to mean that they blew it up for what ever reason.
Hey Larry, did you :pull buildings 1 and 2 as well, we think that it seems so, just wondering.
i don't want to be 'exposed' as a shill for above topsecret, so here's my real fake identity on part of the web.
okay, shills? you can engage me there, too, if you think you've got the bolts for it.
the link simply saves me a lot of linking and typing.
there are some compatibility issues with bitorrent and mac and .avi, and some of these problems have been dealt with on this thread. okay? it's a ready made FAQ on getting FREE footage of the events of 911. okay?
now shills and heroes alike can start analysing some unbiased(if you turn the sound off and don't sequence the quotes with the visuals in your analysis timelines, because that's just a nasty nest of relatively irrelevent minutae) video(real time) with sound(via an eight-sih second delay), .....FOR FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
and you can COPY AND DISTIBUTE IT, for FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
okay, shills? you can engage me there, too, if you think you've got the bolts for it.
the link simply saves me a lot of linking and typing.
there are some compatibility issues with bitorrent and mac and .avi, and some of these problems have been dealt with on this thread. okay? it's a ready made FAQ on getting FREE footage of the events of 911. okay?
now shills and heroes alike can start analysing some unbiased(if you turn the sound off and don't sequence the quotes with the visuals in your analysis timelines, because that's just a nasty nest of relatively irrelevent minutae) video(real time) with sound(via an eight-sih second delay), .....FOR FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
and you can COPY AND DISTIBUTE IT, for FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
billybob
an idiot
an idiot
QUOTE
That does not include the posts made at Pravda by Yesitdid. If it is not the same person they are from the same agency.
http://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.php3?...798#post1699798
http://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.php3?...798#post1699798
I see Foxx posts over there as well:
While there I found this:
Posted by theTruth:
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| That does not include the posts made at Pravda by Yesitdid. If it is not the same person they are from the same agency. http://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.php3?...798#post1699798 |
I see Foxx posts over there as well:
While there I found this:
Posted by theTruth:
if you put the Bum Fox LeBleatOff idiots on ignore..
this place reads better
Then there were a number of posts where the poster named FOX got pissed off,
Then there was this, talk about CLASSIC:
QUOTE (TheTruth+)
QUOTE
Originally posted by Sammy
I think he meant Foxx rather than fox.
I think he meant Foxx rather than fox.
oops- typo my bad..
fox.. please accept my apology..
Arthur
QUOTE (Guest+Dec 20 2005, 05:54 AM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Dec 20 2005, 04:13 AM)
The time each post is made is registered at the top of each post.
I made my above post to check to compare the 'forum time' (what I see listed as the 'posted time' on my screen) with the actual time it is where I am.
This might be different for others, I suppose, depending on whether you can set 'forum posting time' with your own local time?
I haven't checked.
When I posted the above message the 'forum' says the time I posted is 8 hrs ahead of the actual time in my area. (Pacific Time Zone).
Now YID, according to the 'forum times' of your posts (that I see on my machine)... You have made a total of 23 posts over the course of the last 18 hours (since I made my last post yesterday).
That's really got to be some kind of record !
It seems (to me) like a very 'odd' posting schedule...
...for someone to be allegedly 'debating' an issue (which you seem to be 'totally convinced' is 'utter bunk').
This is something that always has struck me as 'odd' about you government theory apologists.
For those (who imply that they are debating with 'idiots' )... you seem to spend an awful lot of your time 'debating with idiots'.
Of course, you may have some psychological reason for spending such an inordinate amount of time conversing with 'idiots'... But I'm trying to understand WHY ANYONE would expend such energy towards such activities. Doesn't make sense (to me).
My apologies to any visiting here that 'believe' there was some POD attached to the WTC planes (or that the planes were holograms).
However... I personally feel that such theories are 'bunk'.
Now I could BE 'wrong' on that issue, but based upon my own 'investigation' (and looking at BOTH sides of those issues) I, PERSONALLY FEEL that those are errors.
Given my belief, I feel it would be a complete WASTE of MY TIME to go to Phil Jayhans 'POD' site and begin 'debating' with some of those there (who are utterly convinced there was a POD)... spending countless hours trying to 'debunk' or refute those die-hard 'believers'.
Prior to my 'conversion' I had never even heard of alternative 'conspiracy theories'.
Consequently, I never went looking for 'alternative conspiracy' sites (or forums).
I do recall Bush stating something to the effect of...
"Conspiracy Theorists are no better than the terrorists who attacked us".
At the time, (although I had no concept of what these 'alternative conspiracists' were stating), I recall thinking to myself...
"That's an 'odd' statement for the POTUS to be making publicly? Obviously anyone suggesting alternative 'Conspiracy Theories' MUST BE JUST wacked-out idiots!"
Given such a thought, (which at that time I believed to be TRUE), I can tell you MOST CERTAINLY... I definately WOULDN'T have WASTED my time (especially the inordinate amounts that YID, Schneibster, adoucette, and the like, do) trying to convince 'idiots' that they are 'idiots'.
For someone to expend such energies in such a direction makes absolutely NO SENSE (to me).
Now, when I look at YID's expenditure today -
23 posts over the course of the last 18 hours
I REALLY HAVE TO WONDER... (apart from some psychological factors that I do not suffer from... or understand)...
What DRIVES these people to spend countless hours and energy trying to convince 'idiots' that they are 'idiots' ?????????????????????????
Well... I MIGHT do it... IF I was paid to?
That does not include the posts made at Pravda by Yesitdid. If it is not the same person they are from the same agency.
http://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.php3?...798#post1699798
Ahhh, yes ... That YID is a very busy fellow.
He's a constant poster on at least 4 forums (that I know of)...
Seems to me that he is either 'stealing productivity' from his 'employer' by posting at alternative conspiracy websites (while he's supposed to be working)... OR
his 'employer' doesn't mind at all.
One would have to do a linguistics analysis for all these posts to see if 'YID' is just one poster... or numerous posters using the same IP address?
YID ... true 'canadian' ... or Langley poster?
No wait... I forgot... I'm just a paranoid delusionist.
(Of course he's NOT - he just CARES SO MUCH for the TRUTH that he wastes his time debating with 'idiots')
What's your REAL motive? Is it just some psychological abnormality you suffer from that drives you to spend countless hours discussing with 'idiots' who are far below your IQ quotients?
Nope.
It's simple really.
Crazy people are fun to f[/B]uck with.
[B]"spooks in firefighter costumes"
Heh...
What's your REAL motive? Is it just some psychological abnormality you suffer from that drives you to spend countless hours discussing with 'idiots' who are far below your IQ quotients?
Nope.
It's simple really.
Crazy people are fun to *** with.
"spooks in firefighter costumes"
Heh...
well...
thanks everyone for showing such great interest in this basic physics thread.
i really like physics. it's the coolest.
here's some basic physics.
things cannot exist and yet not exist. that is physically impossible in our 3D over time matrix.
there were planes.
there were fireballs and fires.
there were people and politics(a very real source of high speed energy reactions. awwww. they don't teach that one at illuminati thought indoctrination machines?).
there were sounds.
light bounced through the matrix according to the laws of mass and gravity. this was recorded from hundreds, if not thousands of sources.
there were helicopters.
there were flashes of light.
there were HUGE sound energies being produced in the absence of visibly detectable motion.
there are recordings of the sound energy produced by the actions of the towers.
there is a total energy sink.
there were very pointed ninety degree ejections well below the collapse zone.
there was white smoke at the base of the tower.
explosions were reported(these reports exist).
flashes were reported.
israeli 'art students' were arrested.
gag orders were issued to firemen.
evidence was detroyed.
this all happened. i could go on and on with this stuff. just off the top of my head.
i could also start mentioning the reality of neocon/mulism sympathiser/financers, like grover norquist, and the mysterious organisations like the safari club, which show some very strong suadi-american ties, but then, i'd have to do even MORE research into stinking politics, which i hate.
i like physics. so clean. it doesn't lie, once you get the right input.
there was a pattern created by the dynamic interaction of energy conversions. this pattern, although highly chaotic, does have some aspects of predictability with a high degree of accuracy. example. if the towers fell in three seconds, there could be no argument of resistance, as it would be a negative number. of course, advanced computer modelling CAN recreate these scenarios. however, the output is only as good as the input, and in the case of the towers, this data is affected by people and politics(see above) even more than the vast physical complexity.
the complexity of a tower collapse pales compared to the collapse of a society.
i would like to point out that a shill can be aware that he is a shill, or not. some shills are unaware that they have been 'programmed' to do a task. or an already existing position taken by the shill is used by the GRIFTER, who is the real brains behind the GRIFT.
i am not rick, the 911eyewitness guy. rick would have to be a grifter for me to be his shill. he seems like a businessman to me. i thought 'conservatives' LIKED entrepeneurs???
i guess i AM confused.
i haven't even watched the whole movie. i fell asleep at the wheel. it's not easy trying to keep up with a bunch of paid experts. i did watch the whole of the first tower footage, though. simply awesome. i would be a happy shill for this movie. BUY IT! pay rick. he is an american hero.
while i'm at it, i'll shill for the lord of the rings trilogy, too. i didn't think they could do the books justice, but they came damn close.
oh, yeah, and see 'waking life', too. great flick(although it makes me a little dizzy. that animation style is irritating).
i don't know.
i think i attacked no-one here.
except people who call themselves conservatives, but act like extreme left-wing dictators.
there is a simple logical argument here.
which things that exist in my list would you say don't exist?
are discussions of existance political or physical?
i wouldn't want to make a logical error.
C'MON!
what exists and what doesn't exist?
these are basic assumptions that MUST be agreed upon before any SERIOUS analysis can take place.
there are more basic premises that must be 'established' as 'fact' that didn't make the list.
my full list would be HUGE! do i have to save humanity ALL BY MYSELF? (thanks foxx and commondreams, Mel and 'Guest'(aka MEME), LOL, for fighting the good fight)
agree?!!!
REFUTE??!?!!
let's not get bogged down in petty human emotion!
we're 'scientists'!
i made a damn list.
refute it point by point with yes or no answers, shills.
bawk, bawk.
I see Foxx posts over there as well:
While there I found this:
Posted by theTruth:
I see Foxx posts over there as well:
While there I found this:
Posted by theTruth:
if you put the Bum Fox LeBleatOff idiots on ignore..
this place reads better
Then there were a number of posts where the poster named FOX got pissed off,
Then there was this, talk about CLASSIC:
oops- typo my bad..
fox.. please accept my apology..
Arthur
Your point being.... ???
'Arthur' I NEVER post under any other screen-name that Foxx. Capital F... 2 x's.
'fox' [of Pravda] was not me (as was established).
Yes, I used to spend time at Pravda; but just can't seem to find 'enough time' to keep up with one forum (let alone 4).
Of course, if your 'job' entails 'computer-time', it would be easy enough to 'sneak away' and spend time posting on 'forums', thereby stealing time away from the job your employer hired you to do.
For my own conscience, I would NOT cheat my 'employer' by such Wasted Productivity EVEN IF I had such opportunity. Although I am self-employed so don't have to answer to an 'employer'.
I work in the REAL WORLD... (not in an 'office')... so I don't have time to 'debate' on the computer' while I am at 'WORK'. I actually build things for a living.
It seems that many of you government apologists don't have my 'limitations'.
not sure what that means, or what you are saying, are you a little bit drunk>
I am just saying that the owner of building 7 blew up his buildings, I think that is not a good thing.
Have you read the NIST prelim report on WTC 7?
What in it do you dispute (specifically)
As I've said before, I prefer to wait for their final report, but if you insist, we can deal with what has already been published.
As far as explaining something, how about YOU try explaining how HE managed to persist in a burning building for hours on end, yet still go off as planned.
Arthur
I made my above post to check to compare the 'forum time' (what I see listed as the 'posted time' on my screen) with the actual time it is where I am.
This might be different for others, I suppose, depending on whether you can set 'forum posting time' with your own local time?
I haven't checked.
When I posted the above message the 'forum' says the time I posted is 8 hrs ahead of the actual time in my area. (Pacific Time Zone).
Now YID, according to the 'forum times' of your posts (that I see on my machine)... You have made a total of 23 posts over the course of the last 18 hours (since I made my last post yesterday).
That's really got to be some kind of record !
It seems (to me) like a very 'odd' posting schedule...
...for someone to be allegedly 'debating' an issue (which you seem to be 'totally convinced' is 'utter bunk').
This is something that always has struck me as 'odd' about you government theory apologists.
For those (who imply that they are debating with 'idiots' )... you seem to spend an awful lot of your time 'debating with idiots'.
Of course, you may have some psychological reason for spending such an inordinate amount of time conversing with 'idiots'... But I'm trying to understand WHY ANYONE would expend such energy towards such activities. Doesn't make sense (to me).
My apologies to any visiting here that 'believe' there was some POD attached to the WTC planes (or that the planes were holograms).
However... I personally feel that such theories are 'bunk'.
Now I could BE 'wrong' on that issue, but based upon my own 'investigation' (and looking at BOTH sides of those issues) I, PERSONALLY FEEL that those are errors.
Given my belief, I feel it would be a complete WASTE of MY TIME to go to Phil Jayhans 'POD' site and begin 'debating' with some of those there (who are utterly convinced there was a POD)... spending countless hours trying to 'debunk' or refute those die-hard 'believers'.
Prior to my 'conversion' I had never even heard of alternative 'conspiracy theories'.
Consequently, I never went looking for 'alternative conspiracy' sites (or forums).
I do recall Bush stating something to the effect of...
"Conspiracy Theorists are no better than the terrorists who attacked us".
At the time, (although I had no concept of what these 'alternative conspiracists' were stating), I recall thinking to myself...
"That's an 'odd' statement for the POTUS to be making publicly? Obviously anyone suggesting alternative 'Conspiracy Theories' MUST BE JUST wacked-out idiots!"
Given such a thought, (which at that time I believed to be TRUE), I can tell you MOST CERTAINLY... I definately WOULDN'T have WASTED my time (especially the inordinate amounts that YID, Schneibster, adoucette, and the like, do) trying to convince 'idiots' that they are 'idiots'.
For someone to expend such energies in such a direction makes absolutely NO SENSE (to me).
Now, when I look at YID's expenditure today -
23 posts over the course of the last 18 hours
I REALLY HAVE TO WONDER... (apart from some psychological factors that I do not suffer from... or understand)...
What DRIVES these people to spend countless hours and energy trying to convince 'idiots' that they are 'idiots' ?????????????????????????
Well... I MIGHT do it... IF I was paid to?
That does not include the posts made at Pravda by Yesitdid. If it is not the same person they are from the same agency.
http://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.php3?...798#post1699798
Ahhh, yes ... That YID is a very busy fellow.
He's a constant poster on at least 4 forums (that I know of)...
Seems to me that he is either 'stealing productivity' from his 'employer' by posting at alternative conspiracy websites (while he's supposed to be working)... OR
his 'employer' doesn't mind at all.
One would have to do a linguistics analysis for all these posts to see if 'YID' is just one poster... or numerous posters using the same IP address?
YID ... true 'canadian' ... or Langley poster?
No wait... I forgot... I'm just a paranoid delusionist.
(Of course he's NOT - he just CARES SO MUCH for the TRUTH that he wastes his time debating with 'idiots')
Shills here are really serious, you guys need to get a bit of a life, damn, we will figure this our no matter what you try here or elswhere, the truth is coming out.
Building 7 is the smoking gun, it was not hit by a pilot that was a cave dwelling, box cutter weilding, wild man or men or whatever the story, bring me up to date on the bull *** if you can.
Building 7 is the smoking gun, it was not hit by a pilot that was a cave dwelling, box cutter weilding, wild man or men or whatever the story, bring me up to date on the bull *** if you can.
QUOTE (commondreamer+Dec 20 2005, 06:08 AM)
billybob
an idiot
we prefer hick fool over idiot, if you don't mind being politically correct.
an idiot
we prefer hick fool over idiot, if you don't mind being politically correct.
ok I will say hick fool idiot, defense itnell as a shill here, so as it were
Owner of building 7 says he blew up the building
yes we can figure this one out
Owner of building 7 says he blew up the building
yes we can figure this one out
QUOTE (Foxx+Dec 20 2005, 04:38 AM)
What's your REAL motive? Is it just some psychological abnormality you suffer from that drives you to spend countless hours discussing with 'idiots' who are far below your IQ quotients?
Nope.
It's simple really.
Crazy people are fun to f[/B]uck with.
[B]"spooks in firefighter costumes"
Heh...
QUOTE (Foxx+Dec 20 2005, 04:38 AM)
What's your REAL motive? Is it just some psychological abnormality you suffer from that drives you to spend countless hours discussing with 'idiots' who are far below your IQ quotients?
Nope.
It's simple really.
Crazy people are fun to *** with.
"spooks in firefighter costumes"
Heh...
QUOTE (apologist+Dec 20 2005, 05:26 AM)
QUOTE (sophis+Dec 20 2005, 03:25 AM)
well...
thanks everyone for showing such great interest in this basic physics thread.
i really like physics. it's the coolest.
here's some basic physics.
things cannot exist and yet not exist. that is physically impossible in our 3D over time matrix.
there were planes.
there were fireballs and fires.
there were people and politics(a very real source of high speed energy reactions. awwww. they don't teach that one at illuminati thought indoctrination machines?).
there were sounds.
light bounced through the matrix according to the laws of mass and gravity. this was recorded from hundreds, if not thousands of sources.
there were helicopters.
there were flashes of light.
there were HUGE sound energies being produced in the absence of visibly detectable motion.
there are recordings of the sound energy produced by the actions of the towers.
there is a total energy sink.
there were very pointed ninety degree ejections well below the collapse zone.
there was white smoke at the base of the tower.
explosions were reported(these reports exist).
flashes were reported.
israeli 'art students' were arrested.
gag orders were issued to firemen.
evidence was detroyed.
this all happened. i could go on and on with this stuff. just off the top of my head.
i could also start mentioning the reality of neocon/mulism sympathiser/financers, like grover norquist, and the mysterious organisations like the safari club, which show some very strong suadi-american ties, but then, i'd have to do even MORE research into stinking politics, which i hate.
i like physics. so clean. it doesn't lie, once you get the right input.
there was a pattern created by the dynamic interaction of energy conversions. this pattern, although highly chaotic, does have some aspects of predictability with a high degree of accuracy. example. if the towers fell in three seconds, there could be no argument of resistance, as it would be a negative number. of course, advanced computer modelling CAN recreate these scenarios. however, the output is only as good as the input, and in the case of the towers, this data is affected by people and politics(see above) even more than the vast physical complexity.
the complexity of a tower collapse pales compared to the collapse of a society.
i would like to point out that a shill can be aware that he is a shill, or not. some shills are unaware that they have been 'programmed' to do a task. or an already existing position taken by the shill is used by the GRIFTER, who is the real brains behind the GRIFT.
i am not rick, the 911eyewitness guy. rick would have to be a grifter for me to be his shill. he seems like a businessman to me. i thought 'conservatives' LIKED entrepeneurs???
i guess i AM confused.
i haven't even watched the whole movie. i fell asleep at the wheel. it's not easy trying to keep up with a bunch of paid experts. i did watch the whole of the first tower footage, though. simply awesome. i would be a happy shill for this movie. BUY IT! pay rick. he is an american hero.
while i'm at it, i'll shill for the lord of the rings trilogy, too. i didn't think they could do the books justice, but they came damn close.
oh, yeah, and see 'waking life', too. great flick(although it makes me a little dizzy. that animation style is irritating).
i don't know.
i think i attacked no-one here.
except people who call themselves conservatives, but act like extreme left-wing dictators.
there is a simple logical argument here.
which things that exist in my list would you say don't exist?
are discussions of existance political or physical?
i wouldn't want to make a logical error.
C'MON!
what exists and what doesn't exist?
these are basic assumptions that MUST be agreed upon before any SERIOUS analysis can take place.
there are more basic premises that must be 'established' as 'fact' that didn't make the list.
my full list would be HUGE! do i have to save humanity ALL BY MYSELF? (thanks foxx and commondreams, Mel and 'Guest'(aka MEME), LOL, for fighting the good fight)
agree?!!!
REFUTE??!?!!
let's not get bogged down in petty human emotion!
we're 'scientists'!
i made a damn list.
refute it point by point with yes or no answers, shills.
bawk, bawk.
I suppose that this is your list
there were planes.
there were fireballs and fires.
there were people and politics(a very real source of high speed energy reactions. awwww. they don't teach that one at illuminati thought indoctrination machines?).
there were sounds.
light bounced through the matrix according to the laws of mass and gravity. this was recorded from hundreds, if not thousands of sources.
there were helicopters.
there were flashes of light.
there were HUGE sound energies being produced in the absence of visibly detectable motion.
there are recordings of the sound energy produced by the actions of the towers.
there is a total energy sink.
there were very pointed ninety degree ejections well below the collapse zone.
there was white smoke at the base of the tower.
explosions were reported(these reports exist).
flashes were reported.
israeli 'art students' were arrested.
gag orders were issued to firemen.
evidence was detroyed.
I just go to the weakest link, proove that and it all falls apar
t, wtc 7 and it simply cannot be explained, even by the shills they skirt the topic
yes this is the list, but talking to a shill is like banging your head against the wall, it is what he wants, and it gives us a head ache.
there are recordings of the sound energy produced by the actions of the towers.
IN 911 eyewittness video, for sure,
there were planes.
there were fireballs and fires.
there were people and politics(a very real source of high speed energy reactions. awwww. they don't teach that one at illuminati thought indoctrination machines?).
there were sounds.
light bounced through the matrix according to the laws of mass and gravity. this was recorded from hundreds, if not thousands of sources.
there were helicopters.
there were flashes of light.
there were HUGE sound energies being produced in the absence of visibly detectable motion.
there are recordings of the sound energy produced by the actions of the towers.
there is a total energy sink.
there were very pointed ninety degree ejections well below the collapse zone.
there was white smoke at the base of the tower.
explosions were reported(these reports exist).
flashes were reported.
israeli 'art students' were arrested.
gag orders were issued to firemen.
evidence was detroyed.
I just go to the weakest link, proove that and it all falls apar
t, wtc 7 and it simply cannot be explained, even by the shills they skirt the topic
yes this is the list, but talking to a shill is like banging your head against the wall, it is what he wants, and it gives us a head ache.
there are recordings of the sound energy produced by the actions of the towers.
IN 911 eyewittness video, for sure,
QUOTE (commondreamer+Dec 20 2005, 06:20 AM)
ok I will say hick fool idiot, defense itnell as a shill here, so as it were
Owner of building 7 says he blew up the building
yes we can figure this one out
like tower seven, i have no caps.
i have been newton, copernicaus, notwen, know when, chronic smoker., ...many more...........
i thought i'd give the NSA/CIA a bone, and give them access to my "voluntary ESP"(google it)
i think that the majority of reasonable people with access to the rgiht information will make the right choices. especially if EVERYBODY has access to the RIGHT INFORMATION
you're spitting your venom the wrong way.
tower seven was obviously demolished.
i have been giving scientific arguments to this end.
so, EAT MY SHORTS, FELLOW TINFOILHATTER!
Owner of building 7 says he blew up the building
yes we can figure this one out
like tower seven, i have no caps.
i have been newton, copernicaus, notwen, know when, chronic smoker., ...many more...........
i thought i'd give the NSA/CIA a bone, and give them access to my "voluntary ESP"(google it)
i think that the majority of reasonable people with access to the rgiht information will make the right choices. especially if EVERYBODY has access to the RIGHT INFORMATION
you're spitting your venom the wrong way.
tower seven was obviously demolished.
i have been giving scientific arguments to this end.
so, EAT MY SHORTS, FELLOW TINFOILHATTER!
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 20 2005, 06:10 AM)
QUOTE
That does not include the posts made at Pravda by Yesitdid. If it is not the same person they are from the same agency.
http://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.php3?...798#post1699798
http://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.php3?...798#post1699798
I see Foxx posts over there as well:
While there I found this:
Posted by theTruth:
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| That does not include the posts made at Pravda by Yesitdid. If it is not the same person they are from the same agency. http://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.php3?...798#post1699798 |
I see Foxx posts over there as well:
While there I found this:
Posted by theTruth:
if you put the Bum Fox LeBleatOff idiots on ignore..
this place reads better
Then there were a number of posts where the poster named FOX got pissed off,
Then there was this, talk about CLASSIC:
QUOTE (TheTruth+)
QUOTE
Originally posted by Sammy
I think he meant Foxx rather than fox.
I think he meant Foxx rather than fox.
oops- typo my bad..
fox.. please accept my apology..
Arthur
Your point being.... ???
'Arthur' I NEVER post under any other screen-name that Foxx. Capital F... 2 x's.
'fox' [of Pravda] was not me (as was established).
Yes, I used to spend time at Pravda; but just can't seem to find 'enough time' to keep up with one forum (let alone 4).
Of course, if your 'job' entails 'computer-time', it would be easy enough to 'sneak away' and spend time posting on 'forums', thereby stealing time away from the job your employer hired you to do.
For my own conscience, I would NOT cheat my 'employer' by such Wasted Productivity EVEN IF I had such opportunity. Although I am self-employed so don't have to answer to an 'employer'.
I work in the REAL WORLD... (not in an 'office')... so I don't have time to 'debate' on the computer' while I am at 'WORK'. I actually build things for a living.
It seems that many of you government apologists don't have my 'limitations'.
QUOTE
"voluntary ESP"(google it)
ok here goes
Product search results for voluntary ESP
US Army?S Transition to the All-Volunteer Force, 1968-1974 - $65.00 - Abebooks
Voluntary Euthanasia(Some less important moral objections to the practice of voluntary euthanasia are considered in Young, 1976, esp. pp. 265-275.) ...
plato.stanford.edu/entries/euthanasia-voluntary/ - Similar pages
esp@cenet® PortalWe now have a group of professionals testing esp@cenet new features on a voluntary basis. Their first mission was to "test" the beta version of full ...
www.espacenet.com/ - 11k - Dec 18, 2005 - Cached - Similar pages
[PDF] AN EXTENDED SCOPE FOR THE ENHANCED SURVEY PROGRAMME (ESP)File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
which OCIMF believes, if implemented now as a voluntary constituent. part of the ESP, would consistently and uniformly improve safety of life ...
www.ocimf.com/view_document.cfm?id=345 - Similar pages
ESP Home PageThis led to the Eastleigh Strategic Partnership (ESP) being formed in April 2003. Bringing together the main public, private and voluntary sector ...
www.eastleighstrategicpartnership.org/ - 16k - Dec 18, 2005 - Cached - Similar pages
AAAI 2005 Spring Symposium: Collecting Knowledge from Volunteer ...Michel Simard, Elliott Macklovitch; Voluntary Contributions of Unaware Internet Users? ... Lucy Vanderwende; ESP: Labeling Images with a Computer Game ...
teach-computers.org/kcvc05.html - 13k - Cached - Similar pages
Bob Dobbs Interview with SamBOB: Good, because it's at Bay..... as you get into the Voluntary ESP illusion ... Because you've got the Cloned ESP then you have the Voluntary ESP effect, ...
www.torporvigil.com/SoundworksLinks/dobbsinterview.htm - 79k - Cached - Similar pages
ISS: ESP is a Psychological Phenomenon: JB Rhine, JG Pratt, CE ...Although the direction of ESP is subject to voluntary control, the immediate activation of the process is apparently spontaneous and involuntary. ...
www.survivalafterdeath.org/ articles/duke/psychological.htm - 56k - Cached - Similar pages
Enfield Strategic PartnershipTo enable the voluntary and community sector to play an active role in the Enfield Strategic Partnership (ESP), the Enfield Community Empowerment Network ...
www.enfieldsp.org.uk/community-empowerment-network.htm - 11k - Cached - Similar pages
GB.267/ESP/INF2 - Governing BodyGB.267/ESP/Inf.2 267th Session Geneva, November 1996 ... There are at present a number of voluntary labelling programmes sponsored by private agencies, ...
www.ilo.org/public/english/ standards/relm/gb/docs/gb267/esp-inf2.htm - 6k - Cached - Similar pages
St Chad's | ESP | HomeParticipation is, of course, voluntary, but most students partake in several opportunities each academic year. Regular participation in ESP should help to ...
www.dur.ac.uk/chads.esp/ - 12k - Cached - Similar pages
ok here goes
Product search results for voluntary ESP
US Army?S Transition to the All-Volunteer Force, 1968-1974 - $65.00 - Abebooks
Voluntary Euthanasia(Some less important moral objections to the practice of voluntary euthanasia are considered in Young, 1976, esp. pp. 265-275.) ...
plato.stanford.edu/entries/euthanasia-voluntary/ - Similar pages
esp@cenet® PortalWe now have a group of professionals testing esp@cenet new features on a voluntary basis. Their first mission was to "test" the beta version of full ...
www.espacenet.com/ - 11k - Dec 18, 2005 - Cached - Similar pages
[PDF] AN EXTENDED SCOPE FOR THE ENHANCED SURVEY PROGRAMME (ESP)File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
which OCIMF believes, if implemented now as a voluntary constituent. part of the ESP, would consistently and uniformly improve safety of life ...
www.ocimf.com/view_document.cfm?id=345 - Similar pages
ESP Home PageThis led to the Eastleigh Strategic Partnership (ESP) being formed in April 2003. Bringing together the main public, private and voluntary sector ...
www.eastleighstrategicpartnership.org/ - 16k - Dec 18, 2005 - Cached - Similar pages
AAAI 2005 Spring Symposium: Collecting Knowledge from Volunteer ...Michel Simard, Elliott Macklovitch; Voluntary Contributions of Unaware Internet Users? ... Lucy Vanderwende; ESP: Labeling Images with a Computer Game ...
teach-computers.org/kcvc05.html - 13k - Cached - Similar pages
Bob Dobbs Interview with SamBOB: Good, because it's at Bay..... as you get into the Voluntary ESP illusion ... Because you've got the Cloned ESP then you have the Voluntary ESP effect, ...
www.torporvigil.com/SoundworksLinks/dobbsinterview.htm - 79k - Cached - Similar pages
ISS: ESP is a Psychological Phenomenon: JB Rhine, JG Pratt, CE ...Although the direction of ESP is subject to voluntary control, the immediate activation of the process is apparently spontaneous and involuntary. ...
www.survivalafterdeath.org/ articles/duke/psychological.htm - 56k - Cached - Similar pages
Enfield Strategic PartnershipTo enable the voluntary and community sector to play an active role in the Enfield Strategic Partnership (ESP), the Enfield Community Empowerment Network ...
www.enfieldsp.org.uk/community-empowerment-network.htm - 11k - Cached - Similar pages
GB.267/ESP/INF2 - Governing BodyGB.267/ESP/Inf.2 267th Session Geneva, November 1996 ... There are at present a number of voluntary labelling programmes sponsored by private agencies, ...
www.ilo.org/public/english/ standards/relm/gb/docs/gb267/esp-inf2.htm - 6k - Cached - Similar pages
St Chad's | ESP | HomeParticipation is, of course, voluntary, but most students partake in several opportunities each academic year. Regular participation in ESP should help to ...
www.dur.ac.uk/chads.esp/ - 12k - Cached - Similar pages
not sure what that means, or what you are saying, are you a little bit drunk>
I am just saying that the owner of building 7 blew up his buildings, I think that is not a good thing.
QUOTE
I just go to the weakest link, proove that and it all falls apar
t, wtc 7 and it simply cannot be explained, even by the shills they skirt the topic
t, wtc 7 and it simply cannot be explained, even by the shills they skirt the topic
Have you read the NIST prelim report on WTC 7?
What in it do you dispute (specifically)
As I've said before, I prefer to wait for their final report, but if you insist, we can deal with what has already been published.
As far as explaining something, how about YOU try explaining how HE managed to persist in a burning building for hours on end, yet still go off as planned.
Arthur
just one rebuttal
WTC Collapse: A rebuttal to the NIST report
author: Kevin Ryan
The following letter was sent today by Kevin Ryan of Underwriters Laboratories to Frank Gayle of the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST). Underwriters Laboratories is the company that certified the steel componets used in the constuction of the World Trade Center towers. The information in this letter is of great importance.
Dr. Gayle,
Having recently reviewed your team's report of 10/19/04, I felt the need to contact you directly.
As I'm sure you know, the company I work for certified the steel components used in the construction of the WTC buildings. In requesting information from both our CEO and Fire Protection business manager last year, I learned that they did not agree on the essential aspects of the story, except for one thing - that the samples we certified met all requirements. They suggested we all be patient and understand that UL was working with your team, and that tests would continue through this year. I'm aware of UL's attempts to help, including performing tests on models of the floor assemblies. But the results of these tests appear to indicate that the buildings should have easily withstood the thermal stress caused by pools of burning jet fuel.
There continues to be a number of "experts" making public claims about how the WTC buildings fell. One such person, Dr. Hyman Brown from the WTC construction crew, claims that the buildings collapsed due to fires at 2000F melting the steel (1). He states "What caused the building to collapse is the airplane fuel... burning at 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit. The steel in that five-floor area melts." Additionally, the newspaper that quotes him says "Just-released preliminary findings from a National Institute of Standards and Technology study of the World Trade Center collapse support Brown's theory."
We know that the steel components were certified to ASTM E119. The time temperature curves for this standard require the samples to be exposed to temperatures around 2000F for several hours. And as we all agree, the steel applied met those specifications. Additionally, I think we can all agree that even un-fireproofed steel will not melt until reaching red-hot temperatures of nearly 3000F (2). Why Dr. Brown would imply that 2000F would melt the high-grade steel used in those buildings makes no sense at all.
The results of your recently published metallurgical tests seem to clear things up (3), and support your team's August 2003 update as detailed by the Associated Press (4), in which you were ready to "rule out weak steel as a contributing factor in the collapse." The evaluation of paint deformation and spheroidization seem very straightforward, and you noted that the samples available were adequate for the investigation. Your comments suggest that the steel was probably exposed to temperatures of only about 500F (250C), which is what one might expect from a thermodynamic analysis of the situation.
However the summary of the new NIST report seems to ignore your findings, as it suggests that these low temperatures caused exposed bits of the building's steel core to "soften and buckle." (5) Additionally this summary states that the perimeter columns softened, yet your findings make clear that "most perimeter panels (157 of 160) saw no temperature above 250C." To soften steel for the purposes of forging, normally temperatures need to be above1100C (6). However, this new summary report suggests that much lower temperatures were be able to not only soften the steel in a matter of minutes, but lead to rapid structural collapse.
This story just does not add up. If steel from those buildings did soften or melt, I'm sure we can all agree that this was certainly not due to jet fuel fires of any kind, let alone the briefly burning fires in those towers. That fact should be of great concern to all Americans. Alternatively, the contention that this steel did fail at temperatures around 250C suggests that the majority of deaths on 9/11 were due to a safety-related failure. That suggestion should be of great concern to my company.
There is no question that the events of 9/11 are the emotional driving force behind the War on Terror. And the issue of the WTC collapse is at the crux of the story of 9/11. My feeling is that your metallurgical tests are at the crux of the crux of the crux. Either you can make sense of what really happened to those buildings, and communicate this quickly, or we all face the same destruction and despair that come from global decisions based on disinformation and "chatter".
Thanks for your efforts to determine what happened on that day. You may know that there are a number of other current and former government employees that have risked a great deal to help us to know the truth. I've copied one of these people on this message as a sign of respect and support. I believe your work could also be a nucleus of fact around which the truth, and thereby global peace and justice, can grow again. Please do what you can to quickly eliminate the confusion regarding the ability of jet fuel fires to soften or melt structural steel.
1. http://www.boulderweekly.com/archive/102104/coverstory.html
2. CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, 61st edition, pg D-187
3. http://wtc.nist.gov/media/P3MechanicalandM...ysisofSteel.pdf
4. http://www.voicesofsept11.org/archive/911ic/082703.php
5. http://wtc.nist.gov/media/NCSTACWTCStatusFINAL101904WEB2.pdf (pg 11)
6. http://www.forging.org/FIERF/pdf/ffaaMacSleyne.pdf
Kevin Ryan
WTC Collapse: A rebuttal to the NIST report
author: Kevin Ryan
The following letter was sent today by Kevin Ryan of Underwriters Laboratories to Frank Gayle of the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST). Underwriters Laboratories is the company that certified the steel componets used in the constuction of the World Trade Center towers. The information in this letter is of great importance.
Dr. Gayle,
Having recently reviewed your team's report of 10/19/04, I felt the need to contact you directly.
As I'm sure you know, the company I work for certified the steel components used in the construction of the WTC buildings. In requesting information from both our CEO and Fire Protection business manager last year, I learned that they did not agree on the essential aspects of the story, except for one thing - that the samples we certified met all requirements. They suggested we all be patient and understand that UL was working with your team, and that tests would continue through this year. I'm aware of UL's attempts to help, including performing tests on models of the floor assemblies. But the results of these tests appear to indicate that the buildings should have easily withstood the thermal stress caused by pools of burning jet fuel.
There continues to be a number of "experts" making public claims about how the WTC buildings fell. One such person, Dr. Hyman Brown from the WTC construction crew, claims that the buildings collapsed due to fires at 2000F melting the steel (1). He states "What caused the building to collapse is the airplane fuel... burning at 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit. The steel in that five-floor area melts." Additionally, the newspaper that quotes him says "Just-released preliminary findings from a National Institute of Standards and Technology study of the World Trade Center collapse support Brown's theory."
We know that the steel components were certified to ASTM E119. The time temperature curves for this standard require the samples to be exposed to temperatures around 2000F for several hours. And as we all agree, the steel applied met those specifications. Additionally, I think we can all agree that even un-fireproofed steel will not melt until reaching red-hot temperatures of nearly 3000F (2). Why Dr. Brown would imply that 2000F would melt the high-grade steel used in those buildings makes no sense at all.
The results of your recently published metallurgical tests seem to clear things up (3), and support your team's August 2003 update as detailed by the Associated Press (4), in which you were ready to "rule out weak steel as a contributing factor in the collapse." The evaluation of paint deformation and spheroidization seem very straightforward, and you noted that the samples available were adequate for the investigation. Your comments suggest that the steel was probably exposed to temperatures of only about 500F (250C), which is what one might expect from a thermodynamic analysis of the situation.
However the summary of the new NIST report seems to ignore your findings, as it suggests that these low temperatures caused exposed bits of the building's steel core to "soften and buckle." (5) Additionally this summary states that the perimeter columns softened, yet your findings make clear that "most perimeter panels (157 of 160) saw no temperature above 250C." To soften steel for the purposes of forging, normally temperatures need to be above1100C (6). However, this new summary report suggests that much lower temperatures were be able to not only soften the steel in a matter of minutes, but lead to rapid structural collapse.
This story just does not add up. If steel from those buildings did soften or melt, I'm sure we can all agree that this was certainly not due to jet fuel fires of any kind, let alone the briefly burning fires in those towers. That fact should be of great concern to all Americans. Alternatively, the contention that this steel did fail at temperatures around 250C suggests that the majority of deaths on 9/11 were due to a safety-related failure. That suggestion should be of great concern to my company.
There is no question that the events of 9/11 are the emotional driving force behind the War on Terror. And the issue of the WTC collapse is at the crux of the story of 9/11. My feeling is that your metallurgical tests are at the crux of the crux of the crux. Either you can make sense of what really happened to those buildings, and communicate this quickly, or we all face the same destruction and despair that come from global decisions based on disinformation and "chatter".
Thanks for your efforts to determine what happened on that day. You may know that there are a number of other current and former government employees that have risked a great deal to help us to know the truth. I've copied one of these people on this message as a sign of respect and support. I believe your work could also be a nucleus of fact around which the truth, and thereby global peace and justice, can grow again. Please do what you can to quickly eliminate the confusion regarding the ability of jet fuel fires to soften or melt structural steel.
1. http://www.boulderweekly.com/archive/102104/coverstory.html
2. CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, 61st edition, pg D-187
3. http://wtc.nist.gov/media/P3MechanicalandM...ysisofSteel.pdf
4. http://www.voicesofsept11.org/archive/911ic/082703.php
5. http://wtc.nist.gov/media/NCSTACWTCStatusFINAL101904WEB2.pdf (pg 11)
6. http://www.forging.org/FIERF/pdf/ffaaMacSleyne.pdf
Kevin Ryan
QUOTE (commondreamer+Dec 20 2005, 06:45 AM)
[QUOTE]"voluntary ESP"(google it)
ok here goes
not sure what that means, or what you are saying, are you a little bit drunk>
I am just saying that the owner of building 7 blew up his buildings, I think that is not a good thing.
well....
because we ARE talking about physical reality and basic physics....
voluntary esp is the repetition of human cognition cloned and disseminated through an electric enviroment.
like when you phone someone and talk to them.
your perceptions are translated from sensory perception into SYMBOLIC PERCEPTION, and then back into a sensory projection of symbols which can then be decocdoed and matched against the lexicon of accepted symbol/meanings.
we live in an electric enviroment.
bob dobbs was the signifigant hit.
i appreciate that you think i'm always drunk, and not just typing too quickly.
ok here goes
not sure what that means, or what you are saying, are you a little bit drunk>
I am just saying that the owner of building 7 blew up his buildings, I think that is not a good thing.
well....
because we ARE talking about physical reality and basic physics....
voluntary esp is the repetition of human cognition cloned and disseminated through an electric enviroment.
like when you phone someone and talk to them.
your perceptions are translated from sensory perception into SYMBOLIC PERCEPTION, and then back into a sensory projection of symbols which can then be decocdoed and matched against the lexicon of accepted symbol/meanings.
we live in an electric enviroment.
bob dobbs was the signifigant hit.
i appreciate that you think i'm always drunk, and not just typing too quickly.
NIST's Evasion
NIST (National Institute for Standards and Technology) was given a budget of tens of millions of dollars to study the collapses of the World Trade Center skyscrapers. Yet it avoided that charge in any meaningful sense. Its final report admits that it didn't even attempt to model the collapses.
The first critique to thoroughly expose NIST's evasion of its task of investigating the collapses was provided by Sami Yli-Karjanmaa on July 14, 2005. The following excerpt includes more that half of the brief critique.
e x c e r p t
title: NIST and the WTC: 'Science' at the Service of an Empire
authors: Sami Yli-Karjanmaa
The first of the specific objectives of the NIST study was to "[d]etermine why and how WTC 1 and WTC 2 collapsed following the initial impacts of the aircraft and why and how WTC 7 collapsed." [3] These questions are not answered for simple reasons:
Incredibly, the progressive collapse of the Twin Towers has been left out of the computer models used: "The global models of the towers extended from several stories below the impact area to the top of the structure." [4] Thus the structurally intact floors 1-91 of WTC 1 and floors 1-77 of WTC 2 were excluded from the so called "global" models of the towers.
Correspondingly, the temporal dimension was cut short as well: NIST gave itself the task of finding out "[t]he probable sequence of events from the moment of aircraft impact until the initiation of global building collapse." [5]
...
In other words, "Even without the modeling of the progressive collapse we had to postpone the publication of the reports four times so we just didn't have time to do that. And besides, the lower parts of the buildings simply did not slow down the collapse, as everyone could see on TV, so why bother?"
In summary: The reports by NIST say nothing about how -- and if! -- the collapse was able to progress through dozens and dozens of structurally intact floors without being stopped. If no external energy was available e.g. in the form of explosives, this would have been the opportunity to show that no such energy was needed. On the other hand, if some unaccounted-for energy broke the supporting structures enabling the collapse to progress with the speed it did, there would have been many good reasons not to try to model the impossible, ie. a purely gravitation-driven collapse. Stopping the analysis early enough also saves NIST from trying to explain the symmetricality of the collapses (despite non-symmetrical impact damage and fires), the almost complete pulverization of non-metallic materials as well as the extremely hot spots in the rubble. These remain as inexplicable by the official story as they have ever been.
One appendix of project 6 includes an interesting analysis of a dropping floor. [8] According to the results, however, temperatures of 400 to 700 ºC are needed in order for the collapse to be initiated. Unfortunately, the destruction of evidence at Ground Zero was so complete that NIST can now only say that the steel components recovered demonstrate that there was "limited exposure if any above 250 ºC." [9]
NIST's collapse creed, repeated eleven times with identical wording (and once with a slightly different one) in the report of project 6 dealing with the collapse sequences, is this:
" The change in potential energy due to downward movement of building mass above the buckled columns exceeded the strain energy that could have been absorbed by the structure. Global collapse then ensued." [10]
In other words: "Once the top started coming down, it was so heavy that the damaged columns could not stop it. Neither could the undamaged columns of dozens of floors do that, it seems. But we didn't need to model that for we've all seen that down it came."
Thorough, open, independent?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
References:
[1] http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/semerjian_remarks_62305.htm
[2] http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/reports_june05.htm
[3] http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NCSTAR1ExecutiveSummary.pdf (75 kB), p.3
[4] http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NCSTAR1-6ExecutiveSummary.pdf (1.4 MB), p. lxii
[5] Ibid., p. lxiv
[6] http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NISTNCSTAR1-6DDraft.pdf (19.4 MB), p. 5
[7] Ibid., p. 169
[8] Ibid., p. 371
[9] http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NCSTAR1-3ExecutiveSummary.pdf (52 kB), p. xli
[10] http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NISTNCSTAR1-6Draft.pdf (17.5 MB)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
site: www.saunalahti.fi/wtc2001/ page: www.saunalahti.fi/wtc2001/nistcomm.htm
NIST (National Institute for Standards and Technology) was given a budget of tens of millions of dollars to study the collapses of the World Trade Center skyscrapers. Yet it avoided that charge in any meaningful sense. Its final report admits that it didn't even attempt to model the collapses.
The first critique to thoroughly expose NIST's evasion of its task of investigating the collapses was provided by Sami Yli-Karjanmaa on July 14, 2005. The following excerpt includes more that half of the brief critique.
e x c e r p t
title: NIST and the WTC: 'Science' at the Service of an Empire
authors: Sami Yli-Karjanmaa
The first of the specific objectives of the NIST study was to "[d]etermine why and how WTC 1 and WTC 2 collapsed following the initial impacts of the aircraft and why and how WTC 7 collapsed." [3] These questions are not answered for simple reasons:
Incredibly, the progressive collapse of the Twin Towers has been left out of the computer models used: "The global models of the towers extended from several stories below the impact area to the top of the structure." [4] Thus the structurally intact floors 1-91 of WTC 1 and floors 1-77 of WTC 2 were excluded from the so called "global" models of the towers.
Correspondingly, the temporal dimension was cut short as well: NIST gave itself the task of finding out "[t]he probable sequence of events from the moment of aircraft impact until the initiation of global building collapse." [5]
...
In other words, "Even without the modeling of the progressive collapse we had to postpone the publication of the reports four times so we just didn't have time to do that. And besides, the lower parts of the buildings simply did not slow down the collapse, as everyone could see on TV, so why bother?"
In summary: The reports by NIST say nothing about how -- and if! -- the collapse was able to progress through dozens and dozens of structurally intact floors without being stopped. If no external energy was available e.g. in the form of explosives, this would have been the opportunity to show that no such energy was needed. On the other hand, if some unaccounted-for energy broke the supporting structures enabling the collapse to progress with the speed it did, there would have been many good reasons not to try to model the impossible, ie. a purely gravitation-driven collapse. Stopping the analysis early enough also saves NIST from trying to explain the symmetricality of the collapses (despite non-symmetrical impact damage and fires), the almost complete pulverization of non-metallic materials as well as the extremely hot spots in the rubble. These remain as inexplicable by the official story as they have ever been.
One appendix of project 6 includes an interesting analysis of a dropping floor. [8] According to the results, however, temperatures of 400 to 700 ºC are needed in order for the collapse to be initiated. Unfortunately, the destruction of evidence at Ground Zero was so complete that NIST can now only say that the steel components recovered demonstrate that there was "limited exposure if any above 250 ºC." [9]
NIST's collapse creed, repeated eleven times with identical wording (and once with a slightly different one) in the report of project 6 dealing with the collapse sequences, is this:
" The change in potential energy due to downward movement of building mass above the buckled columns exceeded the strain energy that could have been absorbed by the structure. Global collapse then ensued." [10]
In other words: "Once the top started coming down, it was so heavy that the damaged columns could not stop it. Neither could the undamaged columns of dozens of floors do that, it seems. But we didn't need to model that for we've all seen that down it came."
Thorough, open, independent?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
References:
[1] http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/semerjian_remarks_62305.htm
[2] http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/reports_june05.htm
[3] http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NCSTAR1ExecutiveSummary.pdf (75 kB), p.3
[4] http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NCSTAR1-6ExecutiveSummary.pdf (1.4 MB), p. lxii
[5] Ibid., p. lxiv
[6] http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NISTNCSTAR1-6DDraft.pdf (19.4 MB), p. 5
[7] Ibid., p. 169
[8] Ibid., p. 371
[9] http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NCSTAR1-3ExecutiveSummary.pdf (52 kB), p. xli
[10] http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NISTNCSTAR1-6Draft.pdf (17.5 MB)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
site: www.saunalahti.fi/wtc2001/ page: www.saunalahti.fi/wtc2001/nistcomm.htm
does not matter, if the owner admitts he blew up the buildings,and he did, then this becomes a different situation.
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 19 2005, 07:49 PM)
Foxx was trying to imply that the hydraulic press was LARGE, even though the written description of its location was a "SMALL machine shop" (and not a business but just for maint), he then posts pictures of HUGE PRODUCTION hydraulic presses and then adds that they didn't do light stuff, they were working on pulling the heads of 2500 TON chillers. Now EXCUSE me, but once again he certainly APPEARS to be trying to make their job BIGGER than it really is. At one point he was claiming they worked on the Elevators but I suggested to him that OTIS might look dimly upon others messing with their equipment (Every OTIS elevator is a CUSTOM install)
Arthur
It was not Otis doing the matinence and is worth lookin into;
“When the World Trade Center was bombed in 1993, Otis Elevator's mechanics led the rescue of 500 people trapped in elevators. Some mechanics were dropped onto the roofs of the twin towers by helicopter. Others, carrying 50-pound oxygen tanks on their backs, climbed through smoke to machine rooms high in the towers. On Sept. 11, the elevator mechanics — many of the same men involved in the rescues in 1993 — left the buildings after the second jet struck, nearly an hour before the first building collapsed.”
http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2001/1...t-mechanics.htm
Thanks Arthur I almost forgot about ACE Elevator Co.
Arthur
It was not Otis doing the matinence and is worth lookin into;
“When the World Trade Center was bombed in 1993, Otis Elevator's mechanics led the rescue of 500 people trapped in elevators. Some mechanics were dropped onto the roofs of the twin towers by helicopter. Others, carrying 50-pound oxygen tanks on their backs, climbed through smoke to machine rooms high in the towers. On Sept. 11, the elevator mechanics — many of the same men involved in the rescues in 1993 — left the buildings after the second jet struck, nearly an hour before the first building collapsed.”
http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2001/1...t-mechanics.htm
Thanks Arthur I almost forgot about ACE Elevator Co.
THE NEW YORK TIMES
* * * * *
Thursday October 28, 1993 Page A1
"Tapes Depict Proposal to Thwart
Bomb Used in Trade Center Blast"
By Ralph Blumenthal
Law-enforcement officials were told that terrorists were building
a bomb that was eventually used to blow up the World Trade Center,
and they planned to thwart the plotters by secretly substituting
harmless powder for the explosives, an informer said after
the blast.
The informer was to have helped the plotters build the bomb
and supply the fake powder, but the plan was called off by
an F.B.I. supervisor who had other ideas about how the informer,
Emad Salem, should be used, the informer said.
The account, which is given in the transcript of hundreds of
hours of tape recordings that Mr. Salem secretly made of his
talks with law-enforcement agents, portrays the authorities as
being in a far better position than previously known to foil
the February 26th bombing of New York City's tallest towers.
The explosion left six people dead, more than a thousand people
injured, and damages in excess of half-a-billion dollars.
Four men are now on trial in Manhattan Federal Court
[on charges of involvement] in that attack.
Mr. Salem, a 43-year-old former Egyptian Army officer, was used
by the Government [of the United States] to penetrate a circle
of Muslim extremists who are now charged in two bombing cases:
the World Trade Center attack, and a foiled plot to destroy
the United Nations, the Hudson River tunnels, and other
New York City landmarks. He is the crucial witness in the
second bombing case, but his work for the Government was
erratic, and for months before the World Trade Center blast,
he was feuding with th F.B.I.
Supervisor `Messed It Up'
After the bombing, he resumed his undercover work. In an
undated transcript of a conversation from that period,
Mr. Salem recounts a talk he had had earlier with an agent
about an unnamed F.B.I. supervisor who, he said,
"came and messed it up."
"He requested to meet me in the hotel,"
Mr. Salem says of the supervisor.
"He requested to make me to testify, and if he didn't
push for that, we'll be going building the bomb with
a phony powder, and grabbing the people who was
involved in it. But since you, we didn't do that."
The transcript quotes Mr. Salem as saying that he wanted to
complain to F.B.I. Headquarters in Washington about the
Bureau's failure to stop the bombing, but was dissuaded by
an agent identified as John Anticev.
Mr. Salem said Mr. Anticev had told him,
"He said, I don't think that the New York people would
like the things out of the New York Office to go to
Washington, D.C."
Another agent, identified as Nancy Floyd, does not dispute
Mr. Salem's account, but rather, appears to agree with it,
saying of the `New York people':
"Well, of course not, because they don't want to
get their butts chewed."
* * * * *
Thursday October 28, 1993 Page A1
"Tapes Depict Proposal to Thwart
Bomb Used in Trade Center Blast"
By Ralph Blumenthal
Law-enforcement officials were told that terrorists were building
a bomb that was eventually used to blow up the World Trade Center,
and they planned to thwart the plotters by secretly substituting
harmless powder for the explosives, an informer said after
the blast.
The informer was to have helped the plotters build the bomb
and supply the fake powder, but the plan was called off by
an F.B.I. supervisor who had other ideas about how the informer,
Emad Salem, should be used, the informer said.
The account, which is given in the transcript of hundreds of
hours of tape recordings that Mr. Salem secretly made of his
talks with law-enforcement agents, portrays the authorities as
being in a far better position than previously known to foil
the February 26th bombing of New York City's tallest towers.
The explosion left six people dead, more than a thousand people
injured, and damages in excess of half-a-billion dollars.
Four men are now on trial in Manhattan Federal Court
[on charges of involvement] in that attack.
Mr. Salem, a 43-year-old former Egyptian Army officer, was used
by the Government [of the United States] to penetrate a circle
of Muslim extremists who are now charged in two bombing cases:
the World Trade Center attack, and a foiled plot to destroy
the United Nations, the Hudson River tunnels, and other
New York City landmarks. He is the crucial witness in the
second bombing case, but his work for the Government was
erratic, and for months before the World Trade Center blast,
he was feuding with th F.B.I.
Supervisor `Messed It Up'
After the bombing, he resumed his undercover work. In an
undated transcript of a conversation from that period,
Mr. Salem recounts a talk he had had earlier with an agent
about an unnamed F.B.I. supervisor who, he said,
"came and messed it up."
"He requested to meet me in the hotel,"
Mr. Salem says of the supervisor.
"He requested to make me to testify, and if he didn't
push for that, we'll be going building the bomb with
a phony powder, and grabbing the people who was
involved in it. But since you, we didn't do that."
The transcript quotes Mr. Salem as saying that he wanted to
complain to F.B.I. Headquarters in Washington about the
Bureau's failure to stop the bombing, but was dissuaded by
an agent identified as John Anticev.
Mr. Salem said Mr. Anticev had told him,
"He said, I don't think that the New York people would
like the things out of the New York Office to go to
Washington, D.C."
Another agent, identified as Nancy Floyd, does not dispute
Mr. Salem's account, but rather, appears to agree with it,
saying of the `New York people':
"Well, of course not, because they don't want to
get their butts chewed."
yep, FBI cooked the bombs and carried out the attcack.
World Trade Center lease holder, Larry Silverstein, commenting on the demolition of Building 7 in the PBS documentary "America Rebuilds", which aired in September of 2002
Video: http://www.911blogger.com/files/video/wtc7_pbs.WMV
Audio: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/PULLIT.mp3
In the same documentary, America Rebuilds, a clean up worker at ground zero uses the term "pull" when preparing for the controlled demolition of Building 6:
"... we're getting ready to pull building six."
Audio: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/pull-it2.mp3
Video: http://www.911blogger.com/files/video/wtc7_pbs.WMV
Audio: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/PULLIT.mp3
In the same documentary, America Rebuilds, a clean up worker at ground zero uses the term "pull" when preparing for the controlled demolition of Building 6:
"... we're getting ready to pull building six."
Audio: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/pull-it2.mp3
Sure are tryin like hell to bury it, too, aren't they? Just in case it disappears, like several of Faux' have, I'll just paste this little copy here.
Guest
Posted: Dec 20 2005, 05:55 AM
Report Post Quote Post
Unregistered
QUOTE (shill @ Dec 20 2005, 05:46 AM)
click here for FREE VIDEO! a REALTIME RECORDING OF THE EVENTS OF SEPTEMBER 11TH, ie. 911
okay? if you really think it's great footage(which i certainly do. the very best i've seen at putting you right there, .....in instant replay. the whole show(for the first tower, anyway. i still haven't seen the whole thing), then you might wanna shoot the CREATOR(ie. god) a few MEASLY bucks. this twenty dollar investment could help save the american taxpayer literally BILLIONS, if not, TRILLIONS of DOLLARS, $$$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!
you are free to copy and distribute this footage, so, if you get ten freinds in on it, it will only cost you 2$.
mind you, you could also download it for free, and make copies for free.
that's what i'm doing.
if things work out, i'm going to (eventually) buy rick spiegal a second hand hyundai pony as a gift. (hey, it's the thought that counts!)
another shill, very funny
Emphasis is mine.
That's the third one so far, and there's another one in between that one and now. Four-five posts below that, we have:
billybob
Posted: Dec 20 2005, 06:05 AM
Report Post Quote Post
Unregistered
i don't want to be 'exposed' as a shill for above topsecret, so here's my real fake identity on part of the web.
okay, shills? you can engage me there, too, if you think you've got the bolts for it.
the link simply saves me a lot of linking and typing.
there are some compatibility issues with bitorrent and mac and .avi, and some of these problems have been dealt with on this thread. okay? it's a ready made FAQ on getting FREE footage of the events of 911. okay?
now shills and heroes alike can start analysing some unbiased(if you turn the sound off and don't sequence the quotes with the visuals in your analysis timelines, because that's just a nasty nest of relatively irrelevent minutae) video(real time) with sound(via an eight-sih second delay), .....FOR FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
and you can COPY AND DISTIBUTE IT, for FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
It appears to have been altered by site admins to delete the links, which would just about serve this @$$40l3 right.
Suppose they'll ever live down the fact that on page 119 of this thread, it became obvious that there are some of them actually MAKING MONEY off people who believe in this horses**t? Can you imagine this? WHO's been calling WHO a shill? Does anyone have ANY remaining questions for these individuals, or any question that they are the hucksters and the duped? It's OVER.
I must point out that I KNEW if I frustrated these @$$40l35 enough, they would eventually break down and reveal this steaming pile of droppings for you all to look at. If you want to know why I have been doing this, THIS IS WHY. IF YOU ARE LISTENING TO PEOPLE TELLING YOU RIDICULOUS STORIES ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED ON 9/11 YOU HAVE BEEN DUPED BY F**KTARDS WHO ARE PREYING ON YOU FOR YOUR MONEY. THIS is my message, and HERE you see the proof. Thank you, I now have what I need. I'll be sure to spread it around. I have already taken a copy of this thread for posterity. You'll be happy to know that this information will be spread on one of the most popular counter-culture and alternative news sites on the 'Net. YOU HAVE BEEN PWNED BY DA SCHNEIB. Thanks for playing.
If you go to page 119 of this thread and don't find it there, they edited it. Go look for the post by "guest" on page 121. Most likely the original that this poster replied to will have been edited by then, but you can't edit someone else's post.
Guest
Posted: Dec 20 2005, 05:55 AM
Report Post Quote Post
Unregistered
QUOTE (shill @ Dec 20 2005, 05:46 AM)
click here for FREE VIDEO! a REALTIME RECORDING OF THE EVENTS OF SEPTEMBER 11TH, ie. 911
okay? if you really think it's great footage(which i certainly do. the very best i've seen at putting you right there, .....in instant replay. the whole show(for the first tower, anyway. i still haven't seen the whole thing), then you might wanna shoot the CREATOR(ie. god) a few MEASLY bucks. this twenty dollar investment could help save the american taxpayer literally BILLIONS, if not, TRILLIONS of DOLLARS, $$$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!
you are free to copy and distribute this footage, so, if you get ten freinds in on it, it will only cost you 2$.
mind you, you could also download it for free, and make copies for free.
that's what i'm doing.
if things work out, i'm going to (eventually) buy rick spiegal a second hand hyundai pony as a gift. (hey, it's the thought that counts!)
another shill, very funny
Emphasis is mine.
That's the third one so far, and there's another one in between that one and now. Four-five posts below that, we have:
billybob
Posted: Dec 20 2005, 06:05 AM
Report Post Quote Post
Unregistered
i don't want to be 'exposed' as a shill for above topsecret, so here's my real fake identity on part of the web.
okay, shills? you can engage me there, too, if you think you've got the bolts for it.
the link simply saves me a lot of linking and typing.
there are some compatibility issues with bitorrent and mac and .avi, and some of these problems have been dealt with on this thread. okay? it's a ready made FAQ on getting FREE footage of the events of 911. okay?
now shills and heroes alike can start analysing some unbiased(if you turn the sound off and don't sequence the quotes with the visuals in your analysis timelines, because that's just a nasty nest of relatively irrelevent minutae) video(real time) with sound(via an eight-sih second delay), .....FOR FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
and you can COPY AND DISTIBUTE IT, for FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
It appears to have been altered by site admins to delete the links, which would just about serve this @$$40l3 right.
Suppose they'll ever live down the fact that on page 119 of this thread, it became obvious that there are some of them actually MAKING MONEY off people who believe in this horses**t? Can you imagine this? WHO's been calling WHO a shill? Does anyone have ANY remaining questions for these individuals, or any question that they are the hucksters and the duped? It's OVER.
I must point out that I KNEW if I frustrated these @$$40l35 enough, they would eventually break down and reveal this steaming pile of droppings for you all to look at. If you want to know why I have been doing this, THIS IS WHY. IF YOU ARE LISTENING TO PEOPLE TELLING YOU RIDICULOUS STORIES ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED ON 9/11 YOU HAVE BEEN DUPED BY F**KTARDS WHO ARE PREYING ON YOU FOR YOUR MONEY. THIS is my message, and HERE you see the proof. Thank you, I now have what I need. I'll be sure to spread it around. I have already taken a copy of this thread for posterity. You'll be happy to know that this information will be spread on one of the most popular counter-culture and alternative news sites on the 'Net. YOU HAVE BEEN PWNED BY DA SCHNEIB. Thanks for playing.
If you go to page 119 of this thread and don't find it there, they edited it. Go look for the post by "guest" on page 121. Most likely the original that this poster replied to will have been edited by then, but you can't edit someone else's post.
QUOTE (no caps+Dec 20 2005, 06:39 AM)
QUOTE (commondreamer+Dec 20 2005, 06:20 AM)
ok I will say hick fool idiot, defense itnell as a shill here, so as it were
Owner of building 7 says he blew up the building
yes we can figure this one out
like tower seven, i have no caps.
i have been newton, copernicaus, notwen, know when, chronic smoker., ...many more...........
i thought i'd give the NSA/CIA a bone, and give them access to my "voluntary ESP"(google it)
i think that the majority of reasonable people with access to the rgiht information will make the right choices. especially if EVERYBODY has access to the RIGHT INFORMATION
you're spitting your venom the wrong way.
tower seven was obviously demolished.
i have been giving scientific arguments to this end.
so, EAT MY SHORTS, FELLOW TINFOILHATTER!
With all due respect 'poster of many names' you are making a 'mistake' (IMHO) by doing so.
As far as I know... you could be Schneibster (who is fond of using 'hand-puppets' - 'CHUCKLES' is one of his favourites when he feels 'threatened') ... or Rumsfield himself.
The 'QUACK' / 'Coastal' is also partial to these tricks.
Register, so we all know who you 'are'.
Many 'unregistered guests' make valid points, but it also allows for shills to post as 'unregistered guest' (posting as 'you' or a hand-puppet of you), and undermine 'your' credibility.
Really I have to wonder about anyone who does not 'register'.
Depending upon their statements I can get 'a clue', but the enemies of TRUTH can utilize this 'unregistered' posting ability to shill their wares also.
There is a lot of valid and relevant info being posted here by intelligent people...
wherever that happens, the 'destroyers' will attempt to circumvent the promulgation of such info.
Owner of building 7 says he blew up the building
yes we can figure this one out
like tower seven, i have no caps.
i have been newton, copernicaus, notwen, know when, chronic smoker., ...many more...........
i thought i'd give the NSA/CIA a bone, and give them access to my "voluntary ESP"(google it)
i think that the majority of reasonable people with access to the rgiht information will make the right choices. especially if EVERYBODY has access to the RIGHT INFORMATION
you're spitting your venom the wrong way.
tower seven was obviously demolished.
i have been giving scientific arguments to this end.
so, EAT MY SHORTS, FELLOW TINFOILHATTER!
With all due respect 'poster of many names' you are making a 'mistake' (IMHO) by doing so.
As far as I know... you could be Schneibster (who is fond of using 'hand-puppets' - 'CHUCKLES' is one of his favourites when he feels 'threatened') ... or Rumsfield himself.
The 'QUACK' / 'Coastal' is also partial to these tricks.
Register, so we all know who you 'are'.
Many 'unregistered guests' make valid points, but it also allows for shills to post as 'unregistered guest' (posting as 'you' or a hand-puppet of you), and undermine 'your' credibility.
Really I have to wonder about anyone who does not 'register'.
Depending upon their statements I can get 'a clue', but the enemies of TRUTH can utilize this 'unregistered' posting ability to shill their wares also.
There is a lot of valid and relevant info being posted here by intelligent people...
wherever that happens, the 'destroyers' will attempt to circumvent the promulgation of such info.
Schneibster
massaud
massaud
The only remaining question in my mind is, do I detest a f**ktard who is making this crap up and selling it to idiots worse, or do I hate someone who is fully bought in and doing the f**ktards' work for them in order to justify all the money s/he's spent on this crap more? I guess I have some pity on fools like Faux- assuming it's not a sock puppet of one of these individuals in the first place.
I mean, you might as well be selling fiberglas insulation to babies as cotton candy.
I'd say my work here is done. Anybody with an ounce of brains in their head can see the truth. Oh, they'll whine, and they'll tell you I made those posts, and they'll try to bury them with twenty more pages; they may already have edited them, having now seen my last post. But the link to this thread will be out there, for anyone to look it over, along with page numbers, and if it disappears I'll put it up somewhere else, because I took a copy before I started writing. People need to know the kind of bottom-feeding filth they're being taken advantage of by.
Unless I miss my guess, Faux is preparing another ridiculing post- it may even precede this one. Foxx, I don't know whether you are associated with these individuals or not- if you are, I hope you rot in 4377 for it. If not, you might just want to have a look around and see what's going on. Of course, the fooled are always the least likely to ever admit how they've been taken advantage of- it's embarassing. But there it is. And everyone knows it. Good bye, Foxx.
I mean, you might as well be selling fiberglas insulation to babies as cotton candy.
I'd say my work here is done. Anybody with an ounce of brains in their head can see the truth. Oh, they'll whine, and they'll tell you I made those posts, and they'll try to bury them with twenty more pages; they may already have edited them, having now seen my last post. But the link to this thread will be out there, for anyone to look it over, along with page numbers, and if it disappears I'll put it up somewhere else, because I took a copy before I started writing. People need to know the kind of bottom-feeding filth they're being taken advantage of by.
Unless I miss my guess, Faux is preparing another ridiculing post- it may even precede this one. Foxx, I don't know whether you are associated with these individuals or not- if you are, I hope you rot in 4377 for it. If not, you might just want to have a look around and see what's going on. Of course, the fooled are always the least likely to ever admit how they've been taken advantage of- it's embarassing. But there it is. And everyone knows it. Good bye, Foxx.
QUOTE (Otis Elevator's+Dec 20 2005, 07:05 AM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 19 2005, 07:49 PM)
Foxx was trying to imply that the hydraulic press was LARGE, even though the written description of its location was a "SMALL machine shop" (and not a business but just for maint), he then posts pictures of HUGE PRODUCTION hydraulic presses and then adds that they didn't do light stuff, they were working on pulling the heads of 2500 TON chillers. Now EXCUSE me, but once again he certainly APPEARS to be trying to make their job BIGGER than it really is. At one point he was claiming they worked on the Elevators but I suggested to him that OTIS might look dimly upon others messing with their equipment (Every OTIS elevator is a CUSTOM install)
Arthur
It was not Otis doing the matinence and is worth lookin into;
“When the World Trade Center was bombed in 1993, Otis Elevator's mechanics led the rescue of 500 people trapped in elevators. Some mechanics were dropped onto the roofs of the twin towers by helicopter. Others, carrying 50-pound oxygen tanks on their backs, climbed through smoke to machine rooms high in the towers. On Sept. 11, the elevator mechanics — many of the same men involved in the rescues in 1993 — left the buildings after the second jet struck, nearly an hour before the first building collapsed.”
http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2001/1...t-mechanics.htm
Thanks Arthur I almost forgot about ACE Elevator Co.
Why did the maintenance company that could have helped save people leave an hour before the towers collapsed? Were they warned ahead of time? Who would be more familiar with the core?
“A positive note is that in spite of the fact that ACE Elevator Co. had 88 people working throughout that WTC buildings, maintaining and modernizing the elevators when the attack occurred, none were hurt. Aside from bearing emotional scars that will take years to heal, they, as well as Otis Elevator Co. personnel that were working in the 7 WTC Building and the Schindler Elevator Corp. personnel working in the Marriott Hotel and at the Pentagon are all OK.”
http://www.elevator-world.com/magazine/arc...11-005.html-ssi
“When the World Trade Center was bombed in 1993, Otis Elevator's mechanics led the rescue of 500 people trapped in elevators. Some mechanics were dropped onto the roofs of the twin towers by helicopter. Others, carrying 50-pound oxygen tanks on their backs, climbed through smoke to machine rooms high in the towers. On Sept. 11, the elevator mechanics — many of the same men involved in the rescues in 1993 — left the buildings after the second jet struck, nearly an hour before the first building collapsed.”
http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2001/1...t-mechanics.htm
Thanks Arthur I almost forgot about ACE Elevator Co. [/QUOTE]
Why did the maintenance company that could have helped save people leave an hour before the towers collapsed? Were they warned ahead of time? Who would be more familiar with the core?
“A positive note is that in spite of the fact that ACE Elevator Co. had 88 people working throughout that WTC buildings, maintaining and modernizing the elevators when the attack occurred, none were hurt. Aside from bearing emotional scars that will take years to heal, they, as well as Otis Elevator Co. personnel that were working in the 7 WTC Building and the Schindler Elevator Corp. personnel working in the Marriott Hotel and at the Pentagon are all OK.”
http://www.elevator-world.com/magazine/arc...11-005.html-ssi
Unlike the bombing in 93, the plane's impact did not sever the main electrical connection to the towers. Thus hundreds of people were not trapped in elevators.
So it would appear that help from the Elevator service people was not needed in 2001.
Apparently everything that happened that day has sinister overtones.
Add another 88 people to the conspiracy.
Arthur
Arthur
It was not Otis doing the matinence and is worth lookin into;
“When the World Trade Center was bombed in 1993, Otis Elevator's mechanics led the rescue of 500 people trapped in elevators. Some mechanics were dropped onto the roofs of the twin towers by helicopter. Others, carrying 50-pound oxygen tanks on their backs, climbed through smoke to machine rooms high in the towers. On Sept. 11, the elevator mechanics — many of the same men involved in the rescues in 1993 — left the buildings after the second jet struck, nearly an hour before the first building collapsed.”
http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2001/1...t-mechanics.htm
Thanks Arthur I almost forgot about ACE Elevator Co.
Why did the maintenance company that could have helped save people leave an hour before the towers collapsed? Were they warned ahead of time? Who would be more familiar with the core?
“A positive note is that in spite of the fact that ACE Elevator Co. had 88 people working throughout that WTC buildings, maintaining and modernizing the elevators when the attack occurred, none were hurt. Aside from bearing emotional scars that will take years to heal, they, as well as Otis Elevator Co. personnel that were working in the 7 WTC Building and the Schindler Elevator Corp. personnel working in the Marriott Hotel and at the Pentagon are all OK.”
http://www.elevator-world.com/magazine/arc...11-005.html-ssi
okay, so i joined.
thank you for playing.
i am now newton, here.
it is easy to recognise what i posted in this thread, because i have only used CAPS for EMphaSIS.
okay? everybody 'recognise' me?
i have kept personal attacks down to a dull roar, and have offered many scientific arguments(if no figures. it all starts with OBSERVATION, right, 'scientists'?)
the video is free. google it, if indeed, links have been removed.
thank you for playing.
i am now newton, here.
it is easy to recognise what i posted in this thread, because i have only used CAPS for EMphaSIS.
okay? everybody 'recognise' me?
i have kept personal attacks down to a dull roar, and have offered many scientific arguments(if no figures. it all starts with OBSERVATION, right, 'scientists'?)
the video is free. google it, if indeed, links have been removed.
QUOTE (Schneibster+Dec 20 2005, 07:35 AM)
The only remaining question in my mind is, do I detest a f**ktard who is making this crap up and selling it to idiots worse, or do I hate someone who is fully bought in and doing the f**ktards' work for them in order to justify all the money s/he's spent on this crap more? I guess I have some pity on fools like Faux- assuming it's not a sock puppet of one of these individuals in the first place.
I mean, you might as well be selling fiberglas insulation to babies as cotton candy.
I'd say my work here is done. Anybody with an ounce of brains in their head can see the truth. Oh, they'll whine, and they'll tell you I made those posts, and they'll try to bury them with twenty more pages; they may already have edited them, having now seen my last post. But the link to this thread will be out there, for anyone to look it over, along with page numbers, and if it disappears I'll put it up somewhere else, because I took a copy before I started writing. People need to know the kind of bottom-feeding filth they're being taken advantage of by.
Unless I miss my guess, Faux is preparing another ridiculing post- it may even precede this one. Foxx, I don't know whether you are associated with these individuals or not- if you are, I hope you rot in 4377 for it. If not, you might just want to have a look around and see what's going on. Of course, the fooled are always the least likely to ever admit how they've been taken advantage of- it's embarassing. But there it is. And everyone knows it. Good bye, Foxx.
very well put, schnellster.
would you, as a respected scientist, go through my list of things that do or don't exist, and give me simple yes or no answers?
because, you see, as a hick fool, i am confused.
I mean, you might as well be selling fiberglas insulation to babies as cotton candy.
I'd say my work here is done. Anybody with an ounce of brains in their head can see the truth. Oh, they'll whine, and they'll tell you I made those posts, and they'll try to bury them with twenty more pages; they may already have edited them, having now seen my last post. But the link to this thread will be out there, for anyone to look it over, along with page numbers, and if it disappears I'll put it up somewhere else, because I took a copy before I started writing. People need to know the kind of bottom-feeding filth they're being taken advantage of by.
Unless I miss my guess, Faux is preparing another ridiculing post- it may even precede this one. Foxx, I don't know whether you are associated with these individuals or not- if you are, I hope you rot in 4377 for it. If not, you might just want to have a look around and see what's going on. Of course, the fooled are always the least likely to ever admit how they've been taken advantage of- it's embarassing. But there it is. And everyone knows it. Good bye, Foxx.
very well put, schnellster.
would you, as a respected scientist, go through my list of things that do or don't exist, and give me simple yes or no answers?
because, you see, as a hick fool, i am confused.
here's another PURE PHYSICS link to remove, administrators...
the mass of a human brain
basic physics.
people with one ounce of brain WILL agree with JUST ABOUT ANYTHING!
the mass of a human brain
basic physics.
people with one ounce of brain WILL agree with JUST ABOUT ANYTHING!
I would say that the number of people that believe the "official conspiracy story" roughly equates to the number of people that believe that "god" created the heavens and the earth in a week, with Man a "god-inflated clay figurine".
Thankfully these people are a dying breed.
Hey, don´t tell me this is off topic, like I give a ***.
Thankfully these people are a dying breed.
Hey, don´t tell me this is off topic, like I give a ***.
QUOTE (Galileo+Oct 12 2005, 05:27 AM)
By conservation of energy, a destructive collapse from above at anywhere near free-fall speeds is impossible. Otherwise, parachutes wouldn't work.
Some people will NEVER get this.
Some people will NEVER get this.
QUOTE (ACE Elevator Co.+Dec 20 2005, 07:38 AM)
“When the World Trade Center was bombed in 1993, Otis Elevator's mechanics led the rescue of 500 people trapped in elevators. Some mechanics were dropped onto the roofs of the twin towers by helicopter. Others, carrying 50-pound oxygen tanks on their backs, climbed through smoke to machine rooms high in the towers. On Sept. 11, the elevator mechanics — many of the same men involved in the rescues in 1993 — left the buildings after the second jet struck, nearly an hour before the first building collapsed.”
http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2001/1...t-mechanics.htm
Thanks Arthur I almost forgot about ACE Elevator Co. [/QUOTE]
Why did the maintenance company that could have helped save people leave an hour before the towers collapsed? Were they warned ahead of time? Who would be more familiar with the core?
“A positive note is that in spite of the fact that ACE Elevator Co. had 88 people working throughout that WTC buildings, maintaining and modernizing the elevators when the attack occurred, none were hurt. Aside from bearing emotional scars that will take years to heal, they, as well as Otis Elevator Co. personnel that were working in the 7 WTC Building and the Schindler Elevator Corp. personnel working in the Marriott Hotel and at the Pentagon are all OK.”
http://www.elevator-world.com/magazine/arc...11-005.html-ssi
Unlike the bombing in 93, the plane's impact did not sever the main electrical connection to the towers. Thus hundreds of people were not trapped in elevators.
So it would appear that help from the Elevator service people was not needed in 2001.
Apparently everything that happened that day has sinister overtones.
QUOTE
Were they warned ahead of time?
Add another 88 people to the conspiracy.
Arthur
QUOTE (Guest+Dec 20 2005, 01:19 PM)
QUOTE (Galileo+Oct 12 2005, 05:27 AM)
By conservation of energy, a destructive collapse from above at anywhere near free-fall speeds is impossible. Otherwise, parachutes wouldn't work.
Some people will NEVER get this.
True,
But probably not for the reason you think.
Arthur
Some people will NEVER get this.
True,
But probably not for the reason you think.
Arthur
I think some people will never get this because they are
excessively ignorant and/or extremely gullible.
excessively ignorant and/or extremely gullible.
And I think that only excessively ignorant and/or extremely gullible people WILL get it.
Arthur
Arthur
By conservation of energy, a destructive collapse from above at anywhere near free-fall speeds is impossible. Otherwise, parachutes wouldn't work.
Of course you need the most elementary comprehension of physics to grasp this.
Of course you need the most elementary comprehension of physics to grasp this.
[Quote: By conservation of energy, a destructive collapse from above at anywhere near free-fall speeds is impossible. Otherwise, parachutes wouldn't work. ]
Saying this over and over again does not make it true.
Saying this over and over again does not make it true.
Then why don't I see you attempt to refute it?
What would be the main reason?
Galileo had some trouble getting this into the heads
of some notable gling glongs in the 1600s. History
repeats.
Today's religious nutcases are probably
similar to those of the 17th century.
Go ahead, try to refute it, by all means be my guest,
display total ignorance of elementary physics at a
physics discussion board. Don't be shy.
What would be the main reason?
Galileo had some trouble getting this into the heads
of some notable gling glongs in the 1600s. History
repeats.
similar to those of the 17th century.
Go ahead, try to refute it, by all means be my guest,
display total ignorance of elementary physics at a
physics discussion board. Don't be shy.
Refuting that statement would be asinine. It's like saying you can't drink tea at near boiling temperatures without burning your mouth. I've followed this thread and I don't believe there have been any arguments put forth that have not already been refuted. It's now just the lunatics running the asylum.
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 20 2005, 04:12 PM)
Then why don't I see you attempt to refute it?
Because you have never ATTEMPTED to PROVE IT.
But feel free, show us how the fact that parachutes work proves the WTC couldn't fall in the range of times observed.
(forget that "near free fall" BS. Be SPECIFIC)
Arthur
Because you have never ATTEMPTED to PROVE IT.
But feel free, show us how the fact that parachutes work proves the WTC couldn't fall in the range of times observed.
(forget that "near free fall" BS. Be SPECIFIC)
Arthur
QUOTE (frater plecticus+Dec 20 2005, 10:58 AM)
I would say that the number of people that believe the "official conspiracy story" roughly equates to the number of people that believe that "god" created the heavens and the earth in a week, with Man a "god-inflated clay figurine".
Thankfully these people are a dying breed.
Hey, don´t tell me this is off topic, like I give a ***.
It seems that the officail story now really is a myth, 47 story building falling at free fall speed, was not hit by plane, no not rocket science here but then again, many people will believe what they are told to believe, and will not do any critical thinking on their own.
Thankfully these people are a dying breed.
Hey, don´t tell me this is off topic, like I give a ***.
It seems that the officail story now really is a myth, 47 story building falling at free fall speed, was not hit by plane, no not rocket science here but then again, many people will believe what they are told to believe, and will not do any critical thinking on their own.
QUOTE (Ron+Dec 20 2005, 04:21 PM)
Refuting that statement would be asinine. It's like saying you can't drink tea at near boiling temperatures without burning your mouth. I've followed this thread and I don't believe there have been any arguments put forth that have not already been refuted. It's now just the lunatics running the asylum.
Ron,
You are dangerously close to being labeled a SHILL.
Give it a few more posts like the last one and its a near certainty.
Arthur
Ron,
You are dangerously close to being labeled a SHILL.
Give it a few more posts like the last one and its a near certainty.
Arthur
QUOTE (Ron+Dec 20 2005, 04:21 PM)
Refuting that statement would be asinine. It's like saying you can't drink tea at near boiling temperatures without burning your mouth. I've followed this thread and I don't believe there have been any arguments put forth that have not already been refuted. It's now just the lunatics running the asylum.
So you don't really understand how things fall?
Have you even heard of Galileo?
So you don't really understand how things fall?
Have you even heard of Galileo?
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 20 2005, 04:23 PM)
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 20 2005, 04:12 PM)
Then why don't I see you attempt to refute it?
Because you have never ATTEMPTED to PROVE IT.
But feel free, show us how the fact that parachutes work proves the WTC couldn't fall in the range of times observed.
(forget that "near free fall" BS. Be SPECIFIC)
Arthur
As you CLEARLY don't know; Galileo's law pertains
to fall in a VACUUM. The towers did meet air resistance
but still fell at VACUUM FREE FALL SPEED. After having
read your bunk here I would never expect you to grasp
the significance of this.
Because you have never ATTEMPTED to PROVE IT.
But feel free, show us how the fact that parachutes work proves the WTC couldn't fall in the range of times observed.
(forget that "near free fall" BS. Be SPECIFIC)
Arthur
As you CLEARLY don't know; Galileo's law pertains
to fall in a VACUUM. The towers did meet air resistance
but still fell at VACUUM FREE FALL SPEED. After having
read your bunk here I would never expect you to grasp
the significance of this.
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 20 2005, 04:23 PM)
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 20 2005, 04:12 PM)
Then why don't I see you attempt to refute it?
Because you have never ATTEMPTED to PROVE IT.
But feel free, show us how the fact that parachutes work proves the WTC couldn't fall in the range of times observed.
(forget that "near free fall" BS. Be SPECIFIC)
Arthur
Are you intellectually challenged or something?
Clearly you don't know the first thing about physics.
I find it staggering to encounter people on a physics discussion
board who haven't heard of Galileo Galilei.
Because you have never ATTEMPTED to PROVE IT.
But feel free, show us how the fact that parachutes work proves the WTC couldn't fall in the range of times observed.
(forget that "near free fall" BS. Be SPECIFIC)
Arthur
Are you intellectually challenged or something?
Clearly you don't know the first thing about physics.
I find it staggering to encounter people on a physics discussion
board who haven't heard of Galileo Galilei.
Ron says -
"I've followed this thread and I don't believe there have been any arguments put forth that have not already been refuted"
Can Ron explain what HE means by refuted?
Andrew Johnson's original post has not been refuted, nor has the work of Jones Hoffman etc. There has been plenty of nit picking and obfuscation but refutation? - no.
Now how about the multi million dollar Nist's official argument/work? No refutation really necessary - simply because they admit they cannot scientifically explain the collapses so no argument needed, only an independent inquiry that takes ALL pertinent evidence into account.
To be fair to NIST - they were hampered by the CRIMINAL removal of the physical evidence.
Refute away -
Building a Better Mirage
NIST's 3-Year $20,000,000 Cover-Up of the Crime of the Century
by Jim Hoffman
Version 1.0, Dec 8, 2005
-- in contrast to the Report's voluminous detail about the plane crashes, fires, and loss of life, it makes no attempt to characterize or explain the demolition-like features of the collapses -- such as their explosiveness, pulverization, verticality and nearly free-fall rapidity --
http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/nist/index.html
"I've followed this thread and I don't believe there have been any arguments put forth that have not already been refuted"
Can Ron explain what HE means by refuted?
Andrew Johnson's original post has not been refuted, nor has the work of Jones Hoffman etc. There has been plenty of nit picking and obfuscation but refutation? - no.
Now how about the multi million dollar Nist's official argument/work? No refutation really necessary - simply because they admit they cannot scientifically explain the collapses so no argument needed, only an independent inquiry that takes ALL pertinent evidence into account.
To be fair to NIST - they were hampered by the CRIMINAL removal of the physical evidence.
Refute away -
Building a Better Mirage
NIST's 3-Year $20,000,000 Cover-Up of the Crime of the Century
by Jim Hoffman
Version 1.0, Dec 8, 2005
-- in contrast to the Report's voluminous detail about the plane crashes, fires, and loss of life, it makes no attempt to characterize or explain the demolition-like features of the collapses -- such as their explosiveness, pulverization, verticality and nearly free-fall rapidity --
http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/nist/index.html
Thanks for the warning Arthur, I couldn't contain myself.
Galdur,
I think the man your trying to refer to is Newton. Most of the work Galileo did was with telescopes and planetary motion. His ideas on the forces governing bodies in a non-vacuum medium were mostly wrong (believing that the relative difference in specific gravities determined drag).
Galdur,
I think the man your trying to refer to is Newton. Most of the work Galileo did was with telescopes and planetary motion. His ideas on the forces governing bodies in a non-vacuum medium were mostly wrong (believing that the relative difference in specific gravities determined drag).
QUOTE (Guest+Dec 20 2005, 05:01 PM)
Ron says -
"I've followed this thread and I don't believe there have been any arguments put forth that have not already been refuted"
Can Ron explain what HE means by refuted?
Andrew Johnson's original post has not been refuted, nor has the work of Jones Hoffman etc. There has been plenty of nit picking and obfuscation but refutation? - no.
Now how about the multi million dollar Nist's official argument/work? No refutation really necessary - simply because they admit they cannot scientifically explain the collapses so no argument needed, only an independent inquiry that takes ALL pertinent evidence into account.
To be fair to NIST - they were hampered by the CRIMINAL removal of the physical evidence.
Refute away -
Building a Better Mirage
NIST's 3-Year $20,000,000 Cover-Up of the Crime of the Century
by Jim Hoffman
Version 1.0, Dec 8, 2005
-- in contrast to the Report's voluminous detail about the plane crashes, fires, and loss of life, it makes no attempt to characterize or explain the demolition-like features of the collapses -- such as their explosiveness, pulverization, verticality and nearly free-fall rapidity --
http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/nist/index.html
Damn good job, whoever you are there,
Good point about Andrew Johnson's original start of this post.
"I've followed this thread and I don't believe there have been any arguments put forth that have not already been refuted"
Can Ron explain what HE means by refuted?
Andrew Johnson's original post has not been refuted, nor has the work of Jones Hoffman etc. There has been plenty of nit picking and obfuscation but refutation? - no.
Now how about the multi million dollar Nist's official argument/work? No refutation really necessary - simply because they admit they cannot scientifically explain the collapses so no argument needed, only an independent inquiry that takes ALL pertinent evidence into account.
To be fair to NIST - they were hampered by the CRIMINAL removal of the physical evidence.
Refute away -
Building a Better Mirage
NIST's 3-Year $20,000,000 Cover-Up of the Crime of the Century
by Jim Hoffman
Version 1.0, Dec 8, 2005
-- in contrast to the Report's voluminous detail about the plane crashes, fires, and loss of life, it makes no attempt to characterize or explain the demolition-like features of the collapses -- such as their explosiveness, pulverization, verticality and nearly free-fall rapidity --
http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/nist/index.html
Damn good job, whoever you are there,
Good point about Andrew Johnson's original start of this post.
QUOTE (Ron+Dec 20 2005, 05:10 PM)
Thanks for the warning Arthur, I couldn't contain myself.
Galdur,
I think the man your trying to refer to is Newton. Most of the work Galileo did was with telescopes and planetary motion. His ideas on the forces governing bodies in a non-vacuum medium were mostly wrong (believing that the relative difference in specific gravities determined drag).
Thanks for confirming what I said.
You don't have a clue about Galileo's “Law of Falling Bodies”.
Galdur,
I think the man your trying to refer to is Newton. Most of the work Galileo did was with telescopes and planetary motion. His ideas on the forces governing bodies in a non-vacuum medium were mostly wrong (believing that the relative difference in specific gravities determined drag).
Thanks for confirming what I said.
You don't have a clue about Galileo's “Law of Falling Bodies”.
QUOTE (Ron+Dec 20 2005, 05:10 PM)
Thanks for the warning Arthur, I couldn't contain myself.
Galdur,
I think the man your trying to refer to is Newton. Most of the work Galileo did was with telescopes and planetary motion. His ideas on the forces governing bodies in a non-vacuum medium were mostly wrong (believing that the relative difference in specific gravities determined drag).
Damn, unbelievable,
you know just google it bozo
The remarkable observation that all free falling objects fall at the same rate was first proposed by Galileo, nearly 400 years ago. Galileo conducted experiments using a ball on an inclined plane to determine the relationship between the time and distance traveled. He found that the distance depended on the square of the time and that the velocity increased as the ball moved down the incline. The relationship was the same regardless of the mass of the ball used in the experiment. The story that Galileo demonstrated his findings by dropping two cannon balls off the Leaning Tower of Pisa is just a legend. However, if the experiment had been attempted, he would have observed that one ball hit before the other! Falling cannon balls are not actually free falling - they are subject to air resistance and would fall at different terminal velocities.
Galdur,
I think the man your trying to refer to is Newton. Most of the work Galileo did was with telescopes and planetary motion. His ideas on the forces governing bodies in a non-vacuum medium were mostly wrong (believing that the relative difference in specific gravities determined drag).
Damn, unbelievable,
you know just google it bozo
The remarkable observation that all free falling objects fall at the same rate was first proposed by Galileo, nearly 400 years ago. Galileo conducted experiments using a ball on an inclined plane to determine the relationship between the time and distance traveled. He found that the distance depended on the square of the time and that the velocity increased as the ball moved down the incline. The relationship was the same regardless of the mass of the ball used in the experiment. The story that Galileo demonstrated his findings by dropping two cannon balls off the Leaning Tower of Pisa is just a legend. However, if the experiment had been attempted, he would have observed that one ball hit before the other! Falling cannon balls are not actually free falling - they are subject to air resistance and would fall at different terminal velocities.
My bad.
I have always been under the impression that Newton wrote Newton's 3 laws of motion.
I have always been under the impression that Newton wrote Newton's 3 laws of motion.
quick lesson

http://plaguepuppy.net/public_html/video%2...itness_wtc7.wmv
Something not so very normal about this one Mr Galileo

http://plaguepuppy.net/public_html/video%2...itness_wtc7.wmv
Something not so very normal about this one Mr Galileo
QUOTE (Ron+Dec 20 2005, 05:27 PM)
My bad.
I have always been under the impression that Newton wrote Newton's 3 laws of motion.
Well about that, you are correct, I understand where you were thinking.
Either way, the hope is that we have a few more critical thinkers out there like Andrew Johnson, that have the courage to speak up when something like this official story stinks to high heaven
I have always been under the impression that Newton wrote Newton's 3 laws of motion.
Well about that, you are correct, I understand where you were thinking.
Either way, the hope is that we have a few more critical thinkers out there like Andrew Johnson, that have the courage to speak up when something like this official story stinks to high heaven
ENERGETIC EXAMINATION OF THE COLLAPSE OF
THE NORTH TOWER OF THE WTC
Reijo Yli-Karjanmaa
Physics teacher, retired
Version 3.1, June 18, 2005
http://www.saunalahti.fi/wtc2001/energia3.htm
THE NORTH TOWER OF THE WTC
Reijo Yli-Karjanmaa
Physics teacher, retired
Version 3.1, June 18, 2005
http://www.saunalahti.fi/wtc2001/energia3.htm
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 20 2005, 04:33 PM)
As you CLEARLY don't know; Galileo's law pertains
to fall in a VACUUM. The towers did meet air resistance
but still fell at VACUUM FREE FALL SPEED. After having
read your bunk here I would never expect you to grasp
the significance of this.
Galileo did not deal with objects in a vacuum.
He dealt with Inertia (Newton's first law) and he determined, by rolling balls of different mass down an incline that distance traveled was proportional to time squared.
Newton got around to the gravitational aspect of Galileo's work.
But, this would be relevant IF the towers actually fell at FREE FALL SPEED.
Which they didn't, which is why you use the term "NEAR".
Since they were ACCELERATING, they would of course APPEAR (We don't have EXACT timings) to fall at NEAR (within seconds of) Free Fall Speeds.
Which is what they did.
Time to repack your parachute.
Arthur
to fall in a VACUUM. The towers did meet air resistance
but still fell at VACUUM FREE FALL SPEED. After having
read your bunk here I would never expect you to grasp
the significance of this.
Galileo did not deal with objects in a vacuum.
He dealt with Inertia (Newton's first law) and he determined, by rolling balls of different mass down an incline that distance traveled was proportional to time squared.
Newton got around to the gravitational aspect of Galileo's work.
But, this would be relevant IF the towers actually fell at FREE FALL SPEED.
Which they didn't, which is why you use the term "NEAR".
Since they were ACCELERATING, they would of course APPEAR (We don't have EXACT timings) to fall at NEAR (within seconds of) Free Fall Speeds.
Which is what they did.
Time to repack your parachute.
Arthur
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 20 2005, 05:53 PM)
ENERGETIC EXAMINATION OF THE COLLAPSE OF
THE NORTH TOWER OF THE WTC
Reijo Yli-Karjanmaa
Physics teacher, retired
Version 3.1, June 18, 2005
http://www.saunalahti.fi/wtc2001/energia3.htm
Hey, great link, thanks for the heads up for sure.
Once again the conclusion is that the energy required for the destruction of wtc 1,2 and 7 is far greater than given by the official Story, which we now can say is in fact a myth.
The energy required is in fact consistent with a controled demolition on all 3 buildings
THE NORTH TOWER OF THE WTC
Reijo Yli-Karjanmaa
Physics teacher, retired
Version 3.1, June 18, 2005
http://www.saunalahti.fi/wtc2001/energia3.htm
Hey, great link, thanks for the heads up for sure.
Once again the conclusion is that the energy required for the destruction of wtc 1,2 and 7 is far greater than given by the official Story, which we now can say is in fact a myth.
The energy required is in fact consistent with a controled demolition on all 3 buildings
QUOTE
Conclusions
I have calculated (and partly estimated) above that the energy needed to cause the observed phenomena is at least 200 000 kWh (pulverization + expansion work of the dust cloud). In addition to this, energy is needed to break the supporting steel structures and to increase the internal energy of the dust cloud. These unknown energy needs may be many times the calculated one.
But we have potential energy less than 50 000 kWh available for the destruction.
According to the calculations and considerations we can conclude that the potential energy was by far insufficient to account for the totality of phenomena observed and its quality was unsuitable for some of them.
I have examined the North Tower above because Hoffman’s findings of the dust cloud were about the North Tower’s collapsing. But the same conclusions are valid cocerning the South Tower.
Collapses are not paranormal incidents. We can infer that the towers were pulled down using some form of controlled demolition.
About the Investigations
The conclusion of the FEMA report is vague: "With the information and time available, the sequence of the events leading to the collapse of each tower could not be definitively determined."
NIST (National Institute of Standard and Technology) is working on its study which was planned to be reported in December 2004. NIST promised then to report in January, then in the spring of 2005. In the latest briefing on April 5th 2005, they told us the report will come out in September (the drafts in June).
NIST emphasizes more than FEMA the office fires and the dislodging of the fireproofing as the causes of the collapses but in any case it is crucial that the following oddities irreconcilable with a gravitational collapse are explained:
* The totality, symmetry and the amazingly short time of the destruction.
* The high degree of the pulverization of non-metallic materials and shattering of the steel structures almost into the original pieces.
* The high temperature in the ruins.
Exactly these features are typical of or at least possible features in a controlled demolition. The report also ought to include the relevant energy calculations.
References
Hoffman, Jim:The North Tower's Dust Cloud http://wtc7.net/papers/dustvolume/volumev3.html
Federal Emergency Management Agency's (FEMA) The WTC Building Performance Report: http://www.house.gov/science/hot/wtc/wtcreport.htm
German engineers' article: http://home.debitel.net/user/andreas.bunkahle/plate7.htm
Lioy, Paul J. et al.: http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/members/2002/110p.../lioy-full.html
LiRo at GROUND ZERO: http://www.liro.com/lironews.pdf
Steel in the News: http://www.steel.org/news/innews/NYT_01_011009.htm
US Geological Survey: http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2001/ofr-01-0429/thermal.r09.html
NIST's WTC project: wtc.nist.gov
I have calculated (and partly estimated) above that the energy needed to cause the observed phenomena is at least 200 000 kWh (pulverization + expansion work of the dust cloud). In addition to this, energy is needed to break the supporting steel structures and to increase the internal energy of the dust cloud. These unknown energy needs may be many times the calculated one.
But we have potential energy less than 50 000 kWh available for the destruction.
According to the calculations and considerations we can conclude that the potential energy was by far insufficient to account for the totality of phenomena observed and its quality was unsuitable for some of them.
I have examined the North Tower above because Hoffman’s findings of the dust cloud were about the North Tower’s collapsing. But the same conclusions are valid cocerning the South Tower.
Collapses are not paranormal incidents. We can infer that the towers were pulled down using some form of controlled demolition.
About the Investigations
The conclusion of the FEMA report is vague: "With the information and time available, the sequence of the events leading to the collapse of each tower could not be definitively determined."
NIST (National Institute of Standard and Technology) is working on its study which was planned to be reported in December 2004. NIST promised then to report in January, then in the spring of 2005. In the latest briefing on April 5th 2005, they told us the report will come out in September (the drafts in June).
NIST emphasizes more than FEMA the office fires and the dislodging of the fireproofing as the causes of the collapses but in any case it is crucial that the following oddities irreconcilable with a gravitational collapse are explained:
* The totality, symmetry and the amazingly short time of the destruction.
* The high degree of the pulverization of non-metallic materials and shattering of the steel structures almost into the original pieces.
* The high temperature in the ruins.
Exactly these features are typical of or at least possible features in a controlled demolition. The report also ought to include the relevant energy calculations.
References
Hoffman, Jim:The North Tower's Dust Cloud http://wtc7.net/papers/dustvolume/volumev3.html
Federal Emergency Management Agency's (FEMA) The WTC Building Performance Report: http://www.house.gov/science/hot/wtc/wtcreport.htm
German engineers' article: http://home.debitel.net/user/andreas.bunkahle/plate7.htm
Lioy, Paul J. et al.: http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/members/2002/110p.../lioy-full.html
LiRo at GROUND ZERO: http://www.liro.com/lironews.pdf
Steel in the News: http://www.steel.org/news/innews/NYT_01_011009.htm
US Geological Survey: http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2001/ofr-01-0429/thermal.r09.html
NIST's WTC project: wtc.nist.gov
QUOTE (ACE Elevator Co.+Dec 20 2005, 07:38 AM)
QUOTE (Otis Elevator's+Dec 20 2005, 07:05 AM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 19 2005, 07:49 PM)
Foxx was trying to imply that the hydraulic press was LARGE, even though the written description of its location was a "SMALL machine shop" (and not a business but just for maint), he then posts pictures of HUGE PRODUCTION hydraulic presses and then adds that they didn't do light stuff, they were working on pulling the heads of 2500 TON chillers. Now EXCUSE me, but once again he certainly APPEARS to be trying to make their job BIGGER than it really is. At one point he was claiming they worked on the Elevators but I suggested to him that OTIS might look dimly upon others messing with their equipment (Every OTIS elevator is a CUSTOM install)
Arthur
It was not Otis doing the matinence and is worth lookin into;
“When the World Trade Center was bombed in 1993, Otis Elevator's mechanics led the rescue of 500 people trapped in elevators. Some mechanics were dropped onto the roofs of the twin towers by helicopter. Others, carrying 50-pound oxygen tanks on their backs, climbed through smoke to machine rooms high in the towers. On Sept. 11, the elevator mechanics — many of the same men involved in the rescues in 1993 — left the buildings after the second jet struck, nearly an hour before the first building collapsed.”
http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2001/1...t-mechanics.htm
Thanks Arthur I almost forgot about ACE Elevator Co.
Why did the maintenance company that could have helped save people leave an hour before the towers collapsed? Were they warned ahead of time? Who would be more familiar with the core?
“A positive note is that in spite of the fact that ACE Elevator Co. had 88 people working throughout that WTC buildings, maintaining and modernizing the elevators when the attack occurred, none were hurt. Aside from bearing emotional scars that will take years to heal, they, as well as Otis Elevator Co. personnel that were working in the 7 WTC Building and the Schindler Elevator Corp. personnel working in the Marriott Hotel and at the Pentagon are all OK.”
http://www.elevator-world.com/magazine/arc...11-005.html-ssi
You obviously did not read the articles Arthur.
“The World Trade Center had 99 elevators in each tower. David Bobbitt, a Port Authority maintenance supervisor, made contact by intercom with about 75 elevators in the north tower. He says 10 elevators were stuck. "Some elevators had one or two people. Others had four of five," Bobbitt says.”
"Some were very emotional, as you can imagine. I heard crying and screaming. Others were calm," Bobbitt says.
“Elevators in the south tower were more crowded. People were using them to evacuate, not knowing the second hijacked jet was on the way.”
http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2001/1...t-mechanics.htm
This should be one of the most important events to anyone with an engineering background. Why has this not been investigated? Were would you put the explosives if you wanted to bring the buildings down?
yes a common shill technique, call those that do not support the official story wackos and on and on. So if we reject what we are told to believe we are wackos. The real story here is that we have arrived at our conclusions, not because we are comfortable with it and not because it makes us happy, quite the opposite. But when corruption becomes evident, it is very important to expose those that are carrying out the corruption. The fact you support as an appologist, this corrupt administration speaks volumes as to what your real motives are here.
The fact that and the way that building 7 fell is the easiest smoking gun here.
The fact that the owner freely admitts on 2 occasions that he had the building blown up by controled demolition on 9/11 is beside the fact that the official explanation is hogwash, and is the true conspiracy theory
We really think now the the official explanation of 9/11 is the real conspiracy theory as it does not in any way stand up to scrutiny
While you are laughing at the "CT's", don't forget that you are one also. You just choose to believe the Bush administration's conspiracy theory. Pick your theory and it shows who and what you are. Do you think for yourself and try to discern what is true and possible and what is just propaganda and spin? Can you see through lies and liars and know in your gut when you are being deceived. Or do you cling to the most unbelievable conspiracy theory, just because it is the first story you heard. If you think for yourself and have an analytical mind, you will KNOW that the official CONSPIRACY THEORY of the dialysis-dependent, cave-dwelling fanatic who sent 19 angry, but very devout, Muslim men to martyr themselves for Allah and a bunch of virgins, all because they "hate our freedom" does not cut it, even as realistic fiction. Hard-drinking, womanizing, druggies turn around the next day and martyr themselves for a cause and their god. Yeah, right. That makes sense. And don't forget the other bits that go with that ludicrous Conspiracy Theory, like the one about how all our air defenses could not save us, because they were looking outward. Four planes make u-turns in the sky and those tasked with defending us could not realize what was happening and try to save us. Does anyone believe NORAD just stood there looking outward while planes crashed into buildings? And then there's the really believable story of our esteemed Secretary of DEFENSE, who claimed to know nothing about the attacks until Pentagon was attacked, therefore he could not do anything to save lives that day. Right. The Secretary of Defense would remain out of the loop and no one would think to advise him of the situation. Well, excuse me, for bothering you with facts. I know you are married to your Conspiracy Theory and cannot bear for those of us who smell a rat to say so. Well, the jig is up. We know the score and cannot now unknow what we know. Deal with it, because, as time goes on, everyone will know the truth. Then they'll know what kind of monsters really slaughtered 3000 Americans that day, even as they pretended shock and indignation. The real evil doers are those phony-baloney, faux patriots, the ones with the talking points and the flag lapel pins. Heaven help those mass murderers when all of the American people know the truth and heaven help all you who shamefully shill for them.
Arthur
It was not Otis doing the matinence and is worth lookin into;
“When the World Trade Center was bombed in 1993, Otis Elevator's mechanics led the rescue of 500 people trapped in elevators. Some mechanics were dropped onto the roofs of the twin towers by helicopter. Others, carrying 50-pound oxygen tanks on their backs, climbed through smoke to machine rooms high in the towers. On Sept. 11, the elevator mechanics — many of the same men involved in the rescues in 1993 — left the buildings after the second jet struck, nearly an hour before the first building collapsed.”
http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2001/1...t-mechanics.htm
Thanks Arthur I almost forgot about ACE Elevator Co.
Why did the maintenance company that could have helped save people leave an hour before the towers collapsed? Were they warned ahead of time? Who would be more familiar with the core?
“A positive note is that in spite of the fact that ACE Elevator Co. had 88 people working throughout that WTC buildings, maintaining and modernizing the elevators when the attack occurred, none were hurt. Aside from bearing emotional scars that will take years to heal, they, as well as Otis Elevator Co. personnel that were working in the 7 WTC Building and the Schindler Elevator Corp. personnel working in the Marriott Hotel and at the Pentagon are all OK.”
http://www.elevator-world.com/magazine/arc...11-005.html-ssi
You obviously did not read the articles Arthur.
“The World Trade Center had 99 elevators in each tower. David Bobbitt, a Port Authority maintenance supervisor, made contact by intercom with about 75 elevators in the north tower. He says 10 elevators were stuck. "Some elevators had one or two people. Others had four of five," Bobbitt says.”
"Some were very emotional, as you can imagine. I heard crying and screaming. Others were calm," Bobbitt says.
“Elevators in the south tower were more crowded. People were using them to evacuate, not knowing the second hijacked jet was on the way.”
http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2001/1...t-mechanics.htm
This should be one of the most important events to anyone with an engineering background. Why has this not been investigated? Were would you put the explosives if you wanted to bring the buildings down?
QUOTE (Foxx+Dec 20 2005, 04:13 AM)
The time each post is made is registered at the top of each post.
I made my above post to check to compare the 'forum time' (what I see listed as the 'posted time' on my screen) with the actual time it is where I am.
This might be different for others, I suppose, depending on whether you can set 'forum posting time' with your own local time?
I haven't checked.
When I posted the above message the 'forum' says the time I posted is 8 hrs ahead of the actual time in my area. (Pacific Time Zone).
Now YID, according to the 'forum times' of your posts (that I see on my machine)... You have made a total of 23 posts over the course of the last 18 hours (since I made my last post yesterday).
That's really got to be some kind of record !
It seems (to me) like a very 'odd' posting schedule...
...for someone to be allegedly 'debating' an issue (which you seem to be 'totally convinced' is 'utter bunk').
This is something that always has struck me as 'odd' about you government theory apologists.
For those (who imply that they are debating with 'idiots' )... you seem to spend an awful lot of your time 'debating with idiots'.
Of course, you may have some psychological reason for spending such an inordinate amount of time conversing with 'idiots'... But I'm trying to understand WHY ANYONE would expend such energy towards such activities. Doesn't make sense (to me).
bla, bla, bla,
,,,
For someone to expend such energies in such a direction makes absolutely NO SENSE (to me).
Now, when I look at YID's expenditure today -
23 posts over the course of the last 18 hours
I REALLY HAVE TO WONDER... (apart from some psychological factors that I do not suffer from... or understand)...
What DRIVES these people to spend countless hours and energy trying to convince 'idiots' that they are 'idiots' ?????????????????????????
Well... I MIGHT do it... IF I was paid to?
Well Foxx, I suppose I post for the same reason you do. To ensure that the truth is told. I obviously consider what you peddle as not-the-truth. I assume you honestly believe the stuff you post and ascribe no nefarious connotation to the fact that you do. I suppose you could be a paid dis-informationalist for Al-Qeada or similar but that really does not tweak as resonable in my mind.
As for the number of posts I made yesterday. Yep, a lot. Daytime television is crap as you well know, even with 200 channels to choose from. I was home ill yesterday, would you like to know my symptoms? Does it make a difference?
Anyhow, I entertained myself for a good part of the day by posting on this and AH and a few times on Pravda.
Your paranoia level is increasing Foxx, better ask for better meds. .... Kidding of course, I have no idea why you would post some of the stuff that you do when some of it is patently,,, uh,,, rediculous. (I can't think of a nice way to say it, sorry Foxx)
FYI, and I have no idea why I have to explain myself but since it concerns you so, I was posting on another forum concerned with other topics(no, not AH or BA) and up pops this new thread about a gov't conspiracy concerning 9/11. I too had never even dreamed that anyone would come up with such a thing and I read the posts and others posted top it and it seemed this was not just an isolated loony, others actually believed it too. So I looked into some of the claims. Some made me think and do some research and others made me laugh out loud(the planes firing a missile before impact, the pod planes, and my personal favorite loony claim, the hologram over the missile)
Do I expect that the idea of a gov't black op was the cause of the events of 9/11 will disappear due to my, or anyone else's troubles? No , I do not. I know that to this day, despite the data and evidence to the contrary, that many people still believe that the Apollo missions were all faked so it would be folly to expect that the conspiracy theories about gov't involvemnet in 9/11 will die out any time soon.
That however does not mean that I will throw my hands up and stop fighting the good fight. So, given that I and many others will not give up and join you, why do you continue to argue with us Foxx? Is this evidence that you are in fact operating under the direction of the people who sent those hijackers?
Yeah, I know how you will react to that question. believe me I feel that it is similar to how I react to being told that I must be a paid gov't shill.
So you know what you can do with your musings about who I work for and my motivations? Put them someplace dark, moist and smelly and sit on it.
I made my above post to check to compare the 'forum time' (what I see listed as the 'posted time' on my screen) with the actual time it is where I am.
This might be different for others, I suppose, depending on whether you can set 'forum posting time' with your own local time?
I haven't checked.
When I posted the above message the 'forum' says the time I posted is 8 hrs ahead of the actual time in my area. (Pacific Time Zone).
Now YID, according to the 'forum times' of your posts (that I see on my machine)... You have made a total of 23 posts over the course of the last 18 hours (since I made my last post yesterday).
That's really got to be some kind of record !
It seems (to me) like a very 'odd' posting schedule...
...for someone to be allegedly 'debating' an issue (which you seem to be 'totally convinced' is 'utter bunk').
This is something that always has struck me as 'odd' about you government theory apologists.
For those (who imply that they are debating with 'idiots' )... you seem to spend an awful lot of your time 'debating with idiots'.
Of course, you may have some psychological reason for spending such an inordinate amount of time conversing with 'idiots'... But I'm trying to understand WHY ANYONE would expend such energy towards such activities. Doesn't make sense (to me).
bla, bla, bla,
,,,
For someone to expend such energies in such a direction makes absolutely NO SENSE (to me).
Now, when I look at YID's expenditure today -
23 posts over the course of the last 18 hours
I REALLY HAVE TO WONDER... (apart from some psychological factors that I do not suffer from... or understand)...
What DRIVES these people to spend countless hours and energy trying to convince 'idiots' that they are 'idiots' ?????????????????????????
Well... I MIGHT do it... IF I was paid to?
Well Foxx, I suppose I post for the same reason you do. To ensure that the truth is told. I obviously consider what you peddle as not-the-truth. I assume you honestly believe the stuff you post and ascribe no nefarious connotation to the fact that you do. I suppose you could be a paid dis-informationalist for Al-Qeada or similar but that really does not tweak as resonable in my mind.
As for the number of posts I made yesterday. Yep, a lot. Daytime television is crap as you well know, even with 200 channels to choose from. I was home ill yesterday, would you like to know my symptoms? Does it make a difference?
Anyhow, I entertained myself for a good part of the day by posting on this and AH and a few times on Pravda.
Your paranoia level is increasing Foxx, better ask for better meds. .... Kidding of course, I have no idea why you would post some of the stuff that you do when some of it is patently,,, uh,,, rediculous. (I can't think of a nice way to say it, sorry Foxx)
FYI, and I have no idea why I have to explain myself but since it concerns you so, I was posting on another forum concerned with other topics(no, not AH or BA) and up pops this new thread about a gov't conspiracy concerning 9/11. I too had never even dreamed that anyone would come up with such a thing and I read the posts and others posted top it and it seemed this was not just an isolated loony, others actually believed it too. So I looked into some of the claims. Some made me think and do some research and others made me laugh out loud(the planes firing a missile before impact, the pod planes, and my personal favorite loony claim, the hologram over the missile)
Do I expect that the idea of a gov't black op was the cause of the events of 9/11 will disappear due to my, or anyone else's troubles? No , I do not. I know that to this day, despite the data and evidence to the contrary, that many people still believe that the Apollo missions were all faked so it would be folly to expect that the conspiracy theories about gov't involvemnet in 9/11 will die out any time soon.
That however does not mean that I will throw my hands up and stop fighting the good fight. So, given that I and many others will not give up and join you, why do you continue to argue with us Foxx? Is this evidence that you are in fact operating under the direction of the people who sent those hijackers?
Yeah, I know how you will react to that question. believe me I feel that it is similar to how I react to being told that I must be a paid gov't shill.
So you know what you can do with your musings about who I work for and my motivations? Put them someplace dark, moist and smelly and sit on it.
QUOTE (frater plecticus+Dec 20 2005, 10:58 AM)
I would say that the number of people that believe the "official conspiracy story" roughly equates to the number of people that believe that "god" created the heavens and the earth in a week, with Man a "god-inflated clay figurine".
Thankfully these people are a dying breed.
Hey, don´t tell me this is off topic, like I give a ***.
Has to be less than that then since I do NOT believe in creationism. Ask Foxx what he believes in that regard, frater.
Thankfully these people are a dying breed.
Hey, don´t tell me this is off topic, like I give a ***.
Has to be less than that then since I do NOT believe in creationism. Ask Foxx what he believes in that regard, frater.
how come no egghead shill has taken my super simple challange to identify things that exist, and things that don't exist?
and, how about that trumpman analysis? nice! read it here
why don't arthur or schnellster or yesitdid do a peer review? what's wrong with his picture, boys?
i know right away that schnell has a fantasy mass of 450, 000 tons per tower. the thing is, schmelly, that it could weigh a bazillion tons and the potenetial energy could be enough to shatter a planet(not really, since the planet is providing the gravity), but the towers strengh is a ratio. the heavier it is, the stronger it has to be. this is elementary, no?
and once again, schlowster, tell me once again how your model doesn't require the building start it's collapse by accelerating in freefall for the height of one floor. all the columns all the way around the building have to give out at once. the collapse initiation is quite sudden for both wtc1, and wtc7, and although the cap of tower two started tilting first, the collapse was still quite sudden. however, this tilting cap provides another weirdness. why did it stop tilting? why also, did the cap disintegrate first? it is supposed to be the 'plunger', and yet it is made of dust and frame fragments.
it's just that easy to do your advanced 'eggheady' model. 'well, there were thousands of joules of potential in the caps. this potential was instantly translated into kinetic energy for the distance of one floor, or 3.8 meters, which was more than enough to cause the perfectly intact lower floors to offer as much resistance as air."
this inane analysis ignored the fact that hundreds of columns gave out a precisely the same moment, with no slow buildup to collapse involving tilting, or twisting, and no observable progressive failure. it, in fact, conviently ignores everything about the actual collapse. of course, any actual evidence='no evidence' to the orwellian physics shills of big brother.
and, how about that trumpman analysis? nice! read it here
why don't arthur or schnellster or yesitdid do a peer review? what's wrong with his picture, boys?
i know right away that schnell has a fantasy mass of 450, 000 tons per tower. the thing is, schmelly, that it could weigh a bazillion tons and the potenetial energy could be enough to shatter a planet(not really, since the planet is providing the gravity), but the towers strengh is a ratio. the heavier it is, the stronger it has to be. this is elementary, no?
and once again, schlowster, tell me once again how your model doesn't require the building start it's collapse by accelerating in freefall for the height of one floor. all the columns all the way around the building have to give out at once. the collapse initiation is quite sudden for both wtc1, and wtc7, and although the cap of tower two started tilting first, the collapse was still quite sudden. however, this tilting cap provides another weirdness. why did it stop tilting? why also, did the cap disintegrate first? it is supposed to be the 'plunger', and yet it is made of dust and frame fragments.
it's just that easy to do your advanced 'eggheady' model. 'well, there were thousands of joules of potential in the caps. this potential was instantly translated into kinetic energy for the distance of one floor, or 3.8 meters, which was more than enough to cause the perfectly intact lower floors to offer as much resistance as air."
this inane analysis ignored the fact that hundreds of columns gave out a precisely the same moment, with no slow buildup to collapse involving tilting, or twisting, and no observable progressive failure. it, in fact, conviently ignores everything about the actual collapse. of course, any actual evidence='no evidence' to the orwellian physics shills of big brother.
QUOTE
Your paranoia level is increasing Foxx, better ask for better meds. .... Kidding of course, I have no idea why you would post some of the stuff that you do when some of it is patently,,, uh,,, rediculous. (I can't think of a nice way to say it, sorry Foxx)
yes a common shill technique, call those that do not support the official story wackos and on and on. So if we reject what we are told to believe we are wackos. The real story here is that we have arrived at our conclusions, not because we are comfortable with it and not because it makes us happy, quite the opposite. But when corruption becomes evident, it is very important to expose those that are carrying out the corruption. The fact you support as an appologist, this corrupt administration speaks volumes as to what your real motives are here.
The fact that and the way that building 7 fell is the easiest smoking gun here.
The fact that the owner freely admitts on 2 occasions that he had the building blown up by controled demolition on 9/11 is beside the fact that the official explanation is hogwash, and is the true conspiracy theory
QUOTE
Well Foxx, I suppose I post for the same reason you do. To ensure that the truth is told. I obviously consider what you peddle as not-the-truth. I assume you honestly believe the stuff you post and ascribe no nefarious connotation to the fact that you do. I suppose you could be a paid dis-informationalist for Al-Qeada or similar but that really does not tweak as resonable in my mind.
As for the number of posts I made yesterday. Yep, a lot. Daytime television is crap as you well know, even with 200 channels to choose from. I was home ill yesterday, would you like to know my symptoms? Does it make a difference?
Anyhow, I entertained myself for a good part of the day by posting on this and AH and a few times on Pravda.
Your paranoia level is increasing Foxx, better ask for better meds. .... Kidding of course, I have no idea why you would post some of the stuff that you do when some of it is patently,,, uh,,, rediculous. (I can't think of a nice way to say it, sorry Foxx)
FYI, and I have no idea why I have to explain myself but since it concerns you so, I was posting on another forum concerned with other topics(no, not AH or BA) and up pops this new thread about a gov't conspiracy concerning 9/11. I too had never even dreamed that anyone would come up with such a thing and I read the posts and others posted top it and it seemed this was not just an isolated loony, others actually believed it too. So I looked into some of the claims. Some made me think and do some research and others made me laugh out loud(the planes firing a missile before impact, the pod planes, and my personal favorite loony claim, the hologram over the missile)
Do I expect that the idea of a gov't black op was the cause of the events of 9/11 will disappear due to my, or anyone else's troubles? No , I do not. I know that to this day, despite the data and evidence to the contrary, that many people still believe that the Apollo missions were all faked so it would be folly to expect that the conspiracy theories about gov't involvemnet in 9/11 will die out any time soon.
That however does not mean that I will throw my hands up and stop fighting the good fight. So, given that I and many others will not give up and join you, why do you continue to argue with us Foxx? Is this evidence that you are in fact operating under the direction of the people who sent those hijackers?
Yeah, I know how you will react to that question. believe me I feel that it is similar to how I react to being told that I must be a paid gov't shill.
So you know what you can do with your musings about who I work for and my motivations? Put them someplace dark, moist and smelly and sit on it.
As for the number of posts I made yesterday. Yep, a lot. Daytime television is crap as you well know, even with 200 channels to choose from. I was home ill yesterday, would you like to know my symptoms? Does it make a difference?
Anyhow, I entertained myself for a good part of the day by posting on this and AH and a few times on Pravda.
Your paranoia level is increasing Foxx, better ask for better meds. .... Kidding of course, I have no idea why you would post some of the stuff that you do when some of it is patently,,, uh,,, rediculous. (I can't think of a nice way to say it, sorry Foxx)
FYI, and I have no idea why I have to explain myself but since it concerns you so, I was posting on another forum concerned with other topics(no, not AH or BA) and up pops this new thread about a gov't conspiracy concerning 9/11. I too had never even dreamed that anyone would come up with such a thing and I read the posts and others posted top it and it seemed this was not just an isolated loony, others actually believed it too. So I looked into some of the claims. Some made me think and do some research and others made me laugh out loud(the planes firing a missile before impact, the pod planes, and my personal favorite loony claim, the hologram over the missile)
Do I expect that the idea of a gov't black op was the cause of the events of 9/11 will disappear due to my, or anyone else's troubles? No , I do not. I know that to this day, despite the data and evidence to the contrary, that many people still believe that the Apollo missions were all faked so it would be folly to expect that the conspiracy theories about gov't involvemnet in 9/11 will die out any time soon.
That however does not mean that I will throw my hands up and stop fighting the good fight. So, given that I and many others will not give up and join you, why do you continue to argue with us Foxx? Is this evidence that you are in fact operating under the direction of the people who sent those hijackers?
Yeah, I know how you will react to that question. believe me I feel that it is similar to how I react to being told that I must be a paid gov't shill.
So you know what you can do with your musings about who I work for and my motivations? Put them someplace dark, moist and smelly and sit on it.
We really think now the the official explanation of 9/11 is the real conspiracy theory as it does not in any way stand up to scrutiny
While you are laughing at the "CT's", don't forget that you are one also. You just choose to believe the Bush administration's conspiracy theory. Pick your theory and it shows who and what you are. Do you think for yourself and try to discern what is true and possible and what is just propaganda and spin? Can you see through lies and liars and know in your gut when you are being deceived. Or do you cling to the most unbelievable conspiracy theory, just because it is the first story you heard. If you think for yourself and have an analytical mind, you will KNOW that the official CONSPIRACY THEORY of the dialysis-dependent, cave-dwelling fanatic who sent 19 angry, but very devout, Muslim men to martyr themselves for Allah and a bunch of virgins, all because they "hate our freedom" does not cut it, even as realistic fiction. Hard-drinking, womanizing, druggies turn around the next day and martyr themselves for a cause and their god. Yeah, right. That makes sense. And don't forget the other bits that go with that ludicrous Conspiracy Theory, like the one about how all our air defenses could not save us, because they were looking outward. Four planes make u-turns in the sky and those tasked with defending us could not realize what was happening and try to save us. Does anyone believe NORAD just stood there looking outward while planes crashed into buildings? And then there's the really believable story of our esteemed Secretary of DEFENSE, who claimed to know nothing about the attacks until Pentagon was attacked, therefore he could not do anything to save lives that day. Right. The Secretary of Defense would remain out of the loop and no one would think to advise him of the situation. Well, excuse me, for bothering you with facts. I know you are married to your Conspiracy Theory and cannot bear for those of us who smell a rat to say so. Well, the jig is up. We know the score and cannot now unknow what we know. Deal with it, because, as time goes on, everyone will know the truth. Then they'll know what kind of monsters really slaughtered 3000 Americans that day, even as they pretended shock and indignation. The real evil doers are those phony-baloney, faux patriots, the ones with the talking points and the flag lapel pins. Heaven help those mass murderers when all of the American people know the truth and heaven help all you who shamefully shill for them.
ditto
QUOTE (commondreamer+)
as time goes on, everyone will know the truth
Except, apparently you (and your closest appologists for the actual terrorists)
Arthur
PS: So WHO do you think was flying the planes that day?
(let me guess, remote control)
Except, apparently you (and your closest appologists for the actual terrorists)
Arthur
PS: So WHO do you think was flying the planes that day?
(let me guess, remote control)
yeah, commondreamer. ditto that, except the heaven help them part. i say let them burn. i can't think of much that is more atrocious than knowingly protecting mass murders by constantly lying, obfuscating and using every propoganda technique in the book(techniques of persuasion, j.a.c. brown)
the bandwagon technique is becoming popular as they run out of good science arguments.
the bandwagon technique is becoming popular as they run out of good science arguments.
yeah, i know i posted this about 100 pages back, it aimed more at the newcomers to the debate. i could never have said it so succinctly myself.....
SEPTEMBER 25, 2001 – WHAT A REAL PRESIDENT WOULD HAVE SAID
A real president would have glanced at Cicero’s orations against Catiline, with which that orator had gone into the Roman Senate to stop the impending coup d’etat of the bankrupt aristocrat Lucius Sergius Catilina in 63 BC, who had planned to seize power through a massacre of Roman political leaders. He would have been mindful of General de Gaulle’s 1962 speech in which he expressed his determination to defeat the coup attempt of four fascist generals in Algiers.
"My fellow citizens:Tonight I would like to present, as promised, a progress report on the investigations into the events of September 11, investigations which have been the main task of your government over the past several weeks. The tidings I bring you this evening are very grave, and they are related to the tempestuous events of the last few days which are known to you in whole or in part.
As many of you may know, during the morning of 9/11 the White House received a telephone call saying, “Angel is next.” “Angel” was the top-secret code word designating my official aircraft, Air Force One, so this was a threat to shoot down AirForce One. It was also something more: as I realized immediately,it was quite possible that this telephone call had indeed come from the authors of the 9/11 terror attacks. If that was so, there existed the definite possibility that this group, whoever they were, also had access to other top-secret code words used by our government. This meant that there was imminent danger that the terrorist group might possess the code words and related signals that could be used to target thermonuclear ballistic missiles on targets in foreign countries – or even here at home. A duplicate of the briefcase known as “the football,” which follows me everywhere, might be in the hands of the plotters. I decided at once to proceed as quickly as possible to the headquarters of the Strategic Air Command in Nebraska with a small force of bodyguards for the purpose of countermanding, by the immediate physical presence of the commander in chief, any and all illegal attack orders that might be issued by the rogue terrorist network which had so plainly declared war on our country. My intent was to assume direct personal control over the nuclear deterrent forces of this country, wherever they might be located.
During my flight to Nebraska, I received a phone call which presented this threat in the most concrete form. The call came from a man who identified himself as the spokesman for a secret organization of clandestine operatives and special forces – clearly a subversive and insurrectionary group acting as a tool for a coterie of very powerful, wealthy, and ruthless persons. This spokesman told me that his organization had orchestrated the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon as a means of reversing the inexorable decline of American power in the world – a process which I and my elected predecessors had been wholly negligent in allowing, he asserted. He also demanded that I immediately make a televised public statement identifying al Qaeda, Osama Bin Laden, Afghanistan, and Iraq as those responsible for the terror attacks, and announcing our government’s plans to invade and occupy these two countries. Iran, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia, he added, might have to come later. If I failed to accept this ultimatum, the conspirators were determined to use the nuclear launch code words in their possession to destroy Cairo, Baghdad, Teheran, Rabat, Tunis, Karachi, Jakarta,Damascus, Pyongyang, Riyad, Havana, and possibly other cities. That would start 100 years of war of civilizations, they told me, and once it had started, nothing could stop it. I told this spokesman that he and his group, in addition to being guilty of high treason, were courting suicide. The Russian Federation might interpret the missile firings as the beginning of a US first strike against Russian targets, and might respond by initiating procedures for launch under attack, in an attempt to use their nuclear assets against us before they were destroyed on the ground. The People’s Republic of China might respond in the same way. These countries might also conclude that our government had been taken over by madmen, and that their only hope of safety might lie in the use of military means against us. The spokesman for the group of plotters replied that those dangers were real, but that it was up to me to avoid this danger by granting the demands of the terrorist controllers, which came down to US attacks on Afghanistan, and Iraq, with the overthrow of the government of Saudi Arabia likely along the way. The terror group, he boasted, welcomed the bloody global conflict that I seemed to fear, and even regarded the prospect of world war engulfing this planet as preferable to the relative decline of the United States for which he said I and those like me were responsible.
At this moment, our country faced the greatest danger in our entire history. To accept the ultimatum of the plotters and to wage war against their target list of Arab and Islamic states would have cast the United States adrift on an ocean of blackmail, lies, and adventures. Blackmailers always escalate their demands, and the addiction to terrorism of the victorious criminal network might have poisoned our national life for decades, or even for centuries. If I had capitulated, I would have been a puppet of the plotters for as long as I remained in office, indeed for the rest of my life. On the other side, the danger of world war was immediate. I decided that the only honorable course coherent with my oath to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution was to defy the terrorists. At this point we had reached the SAC headquarters in Nebraska. I terminated my conversation with the spokesman for the plotters.
At this point, I activated several units of the Secret Service and Army intelligence under hand-picked officers whose constitutional loyalty I knew I could trust. I briefed them on what I knew so far, and gave them the task of finding the rogue terror network and rooting it out. These fine patriotic men and women went to work at once, and within 72 hours the main outlines of the plot were evident. Let me sum up what we have learned so far. A group of al Qaeda operatives, manipulated by a cabal of rogue CIA case officers, had chosen September 11 to hijack several aircraft, force them to land, and use the passengers as hostages to extort the liberation of certain prisoners being held in Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Among these al Qaeda operatives were several double agents, also under the control of rogue elements in our own intelligence community. These were dissolute and evil persons, who had been trained using the infrastructure left over from the Iran-contra affair.
Air defense that day was completely absent, in part because of four air exercises which were taking place at the same time in various parts of North America. A number of officers in critical positions at NORAD, its regional office in Rome, New York, and in the FAA appear to have been party to the plot. By a kind of collective inertia, they ignored the well-known and long-established standard operating procedures which govern the cooperation of FAA and NORAD, and were able to misdirect our few remaining fighter interceptors, out over the Atlantic Ocean in one case. More arrests are imminent as a result of ongoing investigations in this area.
What the al Qaeda operatives apparently did not know was that the aircraft they had chosen to hijack had been equipped with a new technology making it possible to seize control of these aircraft and operate them by remote control from a command center on the ground. It was this new technology, and not the dubious skills of the hijackers, which allowed the planes to hit their targets with such precision.
But even direct hits by the two planes could not have been enough to bring down the towers. According to the information we have developed, the collapse of World Trade Center buildings one, two,and seven was the direct result of controlled demolition the result of explosive charges which had been placed in these buildings over the previous days and weeks by the terror network, who infiltrated the buildings in the guise of cleaning and security personnel. We have not yet been able to solve all the problems posed by the collapse of the twin towers, since energy sources appear to have been at work which go beyond the realm of today’s conventional technology. I will have more to report on this later. In the meantime, I regret to report that I have had to order the arrest of the Mayor of New York, who repeatedly attempted to bring about the destruction of evidence at the crime scene.
As for the Pentagon, it was struck by a US Air Force cruise missile fired from an aircraft above West Virginia, and not by one of the hijacked airliners. We have not yet been able to determine what happened to American flight 77, and we call on citizens to come to our aid in this matter. The launch of the cruise missile was the work of an entire Air Force unit in Ohio, and these traitors have all been taken into custody.
The airplane that crashed in Shanksville was cynically shot down through the actions of a rebel mole placed in a highly sensitive position at NORAD. This mole was aware that the passengers had retaken control of the aircraft from the lightly armed hijackers, and realized that the interrogation of the hijackers on board would have revealed critical dimensions of the real plot in which the hijackers, although certainly acting with criminal intent, were ultimately mere expendable pawns. The NORAD mole also feared that an examination of the aircraft might reveal the presence of the remote control technology, which had for some reason failed to function. Accordingly, the mole cynically directed jet interceptors to destroy this airplane, even though it was far away from any target of interest to the hijackers.
Several FBI officials and agents have been indicted for obstruction of justice; they have been accused of destroying security camera tapes at the Pentagon, and intimidating witnesses at the Pentagon and in Shanksville. Members of the FBI crime lab and the NTSB team have been discovered attempting to sabotage the cockpit voice recorders of the planes in question; the recordings we have heard are consistent with the account of the 9/11 events I have just described.
Sadly, I must address the three mysterious suicides from the highest ranks of our own government which have caused so much speculation over the past several days.The vice president was found dead in his bunker at Site R last Thursday; the coroner has ruled this a suicide, and has established that the cause of death was a potassium cyanide pill. The same finding has been delivered in the case of the former deputy secretary of defense some hours later on that same day. The death of the Vice Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff by a gunshot wound to the head in the Pentagon at around that same time has also been ruled a suicide. I can only confirm that arrest warrants for all three had been issued by a federal grand jury empanelled to investigate the tragic events of September 11.The mutiny of the Delta Force battalion based near Fort Bragg, North Carolina, has been quelled by loyal troops and planes. The appeal of the rebel commander for a military rebellion against the legal government and for a military coup has been ignored.As you may also know, a top former anti-terror official and several other high officials of the CIA and FBI have been missing for over two weeks, and are presumed to have fled abroad. I can confirm that arrest warrants have been issued for these persons. A number of journalists have also disappeared, and this may also be related to the recent upheaval. I can assure you that our constitutional procedures are just as vigorous as they have ever been, that habeas corpus remains alive, well, and in full force. We have no secret prisons and no secret prisoners, and I will tolerate none. Our open courts continue to function,and they will continue to do so.
We have uncovered complicity between the rogue network in this country and a number of foreign intelligence agencies. One of these is the British MI-6. After the raid by Scotland Yard on the headquarters of MI-6 in Oxford Circus, and after the resignation of Mr. Blair, I look forward to working with the new Labour Party prime minister to eradicate any remaining insurrectionary elements. We continue to observe the situation in several other countries we believe may have been involved in the 9/11 plot. I regret that General Sharon has refused to cooperate, and I invite the Congress to consider whatresponse may be required.
I would like to thank President Putin of the Russian Federation and the leadership of the People’s Republic of China for their wisdom and restraint, especially during the morning of 9/11, when the rebel network engaged in visible preparations for a nuclear launch. I am certain that the great powers, having weathered this storm, will be able to return to the path of confidence building measures at our summit next week. More details will be announced as soon as practicable. In conclusion, let me say a few words about the state of the world.
I do not assert that terrorism is a spontaneous outgrowth of poverty and misery. In fact, I assert the opposite: terrorism is usually organized by an outside agency, often by a government or a network operating inside a government. But it is certainly true that poverty and misery provide the indispensable environment in which terrorist groups can recruit, or be created by intelligence agencies. In today’s world, there are about 2 billion people who are attempting to get by on less than $1 per day. There are some 600 million homeless – that is equal to about the entire population of Europe. About one and one half billion people do not have clean water to drink. With about one billion people unemployed, the unemployment rate in our world is about 33%, about one third. When that happened in our own country during the 1930s, we called that a great depression,and we must therefore acknowledge the existence of a world economic depression of unprecedented severity today. Two thirds of the people in the world – 65% -- have never made a phone call. About 40% do not have access to electricity for household use; I would call that a clear need for rural and urban electrification. Every day in this world of ours, some 40,000 human beings perish from malnutrition and from easily treated diseases like diarrhea. Another 40,000 lose their lives each month as the result of warfare, all of which is absolutely futile and which has often been cynically fomented by foreign economic interests; I am thinking here of the crisis in Africa most specifically. In Africa, the standard of living of the average family has declined by 20% over the last twenty years. Eighty-nine countries are now worse off than they were at the beginning of the 1990s. 175 million people leave their home countries every year in the desperate search for jobs and food – about 3% of humanity. The price of a human slave on the slave markets of southern Europe at this very moment is about 4,000 euros. In the midst of all this, the two hundred fifty-eight richest persons in the world own more in the way of assets and other property than the poorest 3 billion persons. When two hundred fifty eight own more than half of the human population of the world, I hope you will agree with me that such a world cannot be stable. Yet, this is the world that lies before us. I plan to use my powers as president to ameliorate this situation with every means at my disposal, and I call upon the Congress and upon all citizens to support these steps for a new world economic order that will be more just, more equitable, more prosperous, and more dynamic.
We have now been tested in the crucible of a brutal crisis. From this experience we must take renewed devotion to our best values. The decade of globalization has been revealed as a colossal failure, for ourselves as well as for others. We must find a better, more humane, more equitable way of organizing the affairs of this planet. To do this, we must work closely with almost two hundred sovereign states, and work out the details with them, since every country has an inherent right to economic development, science, technology, and dignity. The old imperialism denied these, and the old imperialism is now on the junkheap of history. In the days to come, my two lodestars will be peace and economic development, seen as the two sides of the same coin. Our world has turned over several times in the past month, but I am more certain than ever that I can count on the support of the American people in getting the world back on the right track. I ask you once again to remember the victims of the recent tragedy in your prayers. Good night."
download pdf 2 mb
The punishment for treason was typically an extended and especially cruel death —used to suppress any resistance to government policy. This remained unreformed until the 19th century. Previously, any method (in theory) could be legally used to carry out the death penalty —most popular in the middle-ages were hanging, drawing and quartering.
SEPTEMBER 25, 2001 – WHAT A REAL PRESIDENT WOULD HAVE SAID
A real president would have glanced at Cicero’s orations against Catiline, with which that orator had gone into the Roman Senate to stop the impending coup d’etat of the bankrupt aristocrat Lucius Sergius Catilina in 63 BC, who had planned to seize power through a massacre of Roman political leaders. He would have been mindful of General de Gaulle’s 1962 speech in which he expressed his determination to defeat the coup attempt of four fascist generals in Algiers.
QUOTE
"My fellow citizens:Tonight I would like to present, as promised, a progress report on the investigations into the events of September 11, investigations which have been the main task of your government over the past several weeks. The tidings I bring you this evening are very grave, and they are related to the tempestuous events of the last few days which are known to you in whole or in part.
As many of you may know, during the morning of 9/11 the White House received a telephone call saying, “Angel is next.” “Angel” was the top-secret code word designating my official aircraft, Air Force One, so this was a threat to shoot down AirForce One. It was also something more: as I realized immediately,it was quite possible that this telephone call had indeed come from the authors of the 9/11 terror attacks. If that was so, there existed the definite possibility that this group, whoever they were, also had access to other top-secret code words used by our government. This meant that there was imminent danger that the terrorist group might possess the code words and related signals that could be used to target thermonuclear ballistic missiles on targets in foreign countries – or even here at home. A duplicate of the briefcase known as “the football,” which follows me everywhere, might be in the hands of the plotters. I decided at once to proceed as quickly as possible to the headquarters of the Strategic Air Command in Nebraska with a small force of bodyguards for the purpose of countermanding, by the immediate physical presence of the commander in chief, any and all illegal attack orders that might be issued by the rogue terrorist network which had so plainly declared war on our country. My intent was to assume direct personal control over the nuclear deterrent forces of this country, wherever they might be located.
During my flight to Nebraska, I received a phone call which presented this threat in the most concrete form. The call came from a man who identified himself as the spokesman for a secret organization of clandestine operatives and special forces – clearly a subversive and insurrectionary group acting as a tool for a coterie of very powerful, wealthy, and ruthless persons. This spokesman told me that his organization had orchestrated the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon as a means of reversing the inexorable decline of American power in the world – a process which I and my elected predecessors had been wholly negligent in allowing, he asserted. He also demanded that I immediately make a televised public statement identifying al Qaeda, Osama Bin Laden, Afghanistan, and Iraq as those responsible for the terror attacks, and announcing our government’s plans to invade and occupy these two countries. Iran, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia, he added, might have to come later. If I failed to accept this ultimatum, the conspirators were determined to use the nuclear launch code words in their possession to destroy Cairo, Baghdad, Teheran, Rabat, Tunis, Karachi, Jakarta,Damascus, Pyongyang, Riyad, Havana, and possibly other cities. That would start 100 years of war of civilizations, they told me, and once it had started, nothing could stop it. I told this spokesman that he and his group, in addition to being guilty of high treason, were courting suicide. The Russian Federation might interpret the missile firings as the beginning of a US first strike against Russian targets, and might respond by initiating procedures for launch under attack, in an attempt to use their nuclear assets against us before they were destroyed on the ground. The People’s Republic of China might respond in the same way. These countries might also conclude that our government had been taken over by madmen, and that their only hope of safety might lie in the use of military means against us. The spokesman for the group of plotters replied that those dangers were real, but that it was up to me to avoid this danger by granting the demands of the terrorist controllers, which came down to US attacks on Afghanistan, and Iraq, with the overthrow of the government of Saudi Arabia likely along the way. The terror group, he boasted, welcomed the bloody global conflict that I seemed to fear, and even regarded the prospect of world war engulfing this planet as preferable to the relative decline of the United States for which he said I and those like me were responsible.
At this moment, our country faced the greatest danger in our entire history. To accept the ultimatum of the plotters and to wage war against their target list of Arab and Islamic states would have cast the United States adrift on an ocean of blackmail, lies, and adventures. Blackmailers always escalate their demands, and the addiction to terrorism of the victorious criminal network might have poisoned our national life for decades, or even for centuries. If I had capitulated, I would have been a puppet of the plotters for as long as I remained in office, indeed for the rest of my life. On the other side, the danger of world war was immediate. I decided that the only honorable course coherent with my oath to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution was to defy the terrorists. At this point we had reached the SAC headquarters in Nebraska. I terminated my conversation with the spokesman for the plotters.
At this point, I activated several units of the Secret Service and Army intelligence under hand-picked officers whose constitutional loyalty I knew I could trust. I briefed them on what I knew so far, and gave them the task of finding the rogue terror network and rooting it out. These fine patriotic men and women went to work at once, and within 72 hours the main outlines of the plot were evident. Let me sum up what we have learned so far. A group of al Qaeda operatives, manipulated by a cabal of rogue CIA case officers, had chosen September 11 to hijack several aircraft, force them to land, and use the passengers as hostages to extort the liberation of certain prisoners being held in Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Among these al Qaeda operatives were several double agents, also under the control of rogue elements in our own intelligence community. These were dissolute and evil persons, who had been trained using the infrastructure left over from the Iran-contra affair.
Air defense that day was completely absent, in part because of four air exercises which were taking place at the same time in various parts of North America. A number of officers in critical positions at NORAD, its regional office in Rome, New York, and in the FAA appear to have been party to the plot. By a kind of collective inertia, they ignored the well-known and long-established standard operating procedures which govern the cooperation of FAA and NORAD, and were able to misdirect our few remaining fighter interceptors, out over the Atlantic Ocean in one case. More arrests are imminent as a result of ongoing investigations in this area.
What the al Qaeda operatives apparently did not know was that the aircraft they had chosen to hijack had been equipped with a new technology making it possible to seize control of these aircraft and operate them by remote control from a command center on the ground. It was this new technology, and not the dubious skills of the hijackers, which allowed the planes to hit their targets with such precision.
But even direct hits by the two planes could not have been enough to bring down the towers. According to the information we have developed, the collapse of World Trade Center buildings one, two,and seven was the direct result of controlled demolition the result of explosive charges which had been placed in these buildings over the previous days and weeks by the terror network, who infiltrated the buildings in the guise of cleaning and security personnel. We have not yet been able to solve all the problems posed by the collapse of the twin towers, since energy sources appear to have been at work which go beyond the realm of today’s conventional technology. I will have more to report on this later. In the meantime, I regret to report that I have had to order the arrest of the Mayor of New York, who repeatedly attempted to bring about the destruction of evidence at the crime scene.
As for the Pentagon, it was struck by a US Air Force cruise missile fired from an aircraft above West Virginia, and not by one of the hijacked airliners. We have not yet been able to determine what happened to American flight 77, and we call on citizens to come to our aid in this matter. The launch of the cruise missile was the work of an entire Air Force unit in Ohio, and these traitors have all been taken into custody.
The airplane that crashed in Shanksville was cynically shot down through the actions of a rebel mole placed in a highly sensitive position at NORAD. This mole was aware that the passengers had retaken control of the aircraft from the lightly armed hijackers, and realized that the interrogation of the hijackers on board would have revealed critical dimensions of the real plot in which the hijackers, although certainly acting with criminal intent, were ultimately mere expendable pawns. The NORAD mole also feared that an examination of the aircraft might reveal the presence of the remote control technology, which had for some reason failed to function. Accordingly, the mole cynically directed jet interceptors to destroy this airplane, even though it was far away from any target of interest to the hijackers.
Several FBI officials and agents have been indicted for obstruction of justice; they have been accused of destroying security camera tapes at the Pentagon, and intimidating witnesses at the Pentagon and in Shanksville. Members of the FBI crime lab and the NTSB team have been discovered attempting to sabotage the cockpit voice recorders of the planes in question; the recordings we have heard are consistent with the account of the 9/11 events I have just described.
Sadly, I must address the three mysterious suicides from the highest ranks of our own government which have caused so much speculation over the past several days.The vice president was found dead in his bunker at Site R last Thursday; the coroner has ruled this a suicide, and has established that the cause of death was a potassium cyanide pill. The same finding has been delivered in the case of the former deputy secretary of defense some hours later on that same day. The death of the Vice Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff by a gunshot wound to the head in the Pentagon at around that same time has also been ruled a suicide. I can only confirm that arrest warrants for all three had been issued by a federal grand jury empanelled to investigate the tragic events of September 11.The mutiny of the Delta Force battalion based near Fort Bragg, North Carolina, has been quelled by loyal troops and planes. The appeal of the rebel commander for a military rebellion against the legal government and for a military coup has been ignored.As you may also know, a top former anti-terror official and several other high officials of the CIA and FBI have been missing for over two weeks, and are presumed to have fled abroad. I can confirm that arrest warrants have been issued for these persons. A number of journalists have also disappeared, and this may also be related to the recent upheaval. I can assure you that our constitutional procedures are just as vigorous as they have ever been, that habeas corpus remains alive, well, and in full force. We have no secret prisons and no secret prisoners, and I will tolerate none. Our open courts continue to function,and they will continue to do so.
We have uncovered complicity between the rogue network in this country and a number of foreign intelligence agencies. One of these is the British MI-6. After the raid by Scotland Yard on the headquarters of MI-6 in Oxford Circus, and after the resignation of Mr. Blair, I look forward to working with the new Labour Party prime minister to eradicate any remaining insurrectionary elements. We continue to observe the situation in several other countries we believe may have been involved in the 9/11 plot. I regret that General Sharon has refused to cooperate, and I invite the Congress to consider whatresponse may be required.
I would like to thank President Putin of the Russian Federation and the leadership of the People’s Republic of China for their wisdom and restraint, especially during the morning of 9/11, when the rebel network engaged in visible preparations for a nuclear launch. I am certain that the great powers, having weathered this storm, will be able to return to the path of confidence building measures at our summit next week. More details will be announced as soon as practicable. In conclusion, let me say a few words about the state of the world.
I do not assert that terrorism is a spontaneous outgrowth of poverty and misery. In fact, I assert the opposite: terrorism is usually organized by an outside agency, often by a government or a network operating inside a government. But it is certainly true that poverty and misery provide the indispensable environment in which terrorist groups can recruit, or be created by intelligence agencies. In today’s world, there are about 2 billion people who are attempting to get by on less than $1 per day. There are some 600 million homeless – that is equal to about the entire population of Europe. About one and one half billion people do not have clean water to drink. With about one billion people unemployed, the unemployment rate in our world is about 33%, about one third. When that happened in our own country during the 1930s, we called that a great depression,and we must therefore acknowledge the existence of a world economic depression of unprecedented severity today. Two thirds of the people in the world – 65% -- have never made a phone call. About 40% do not have access to electricity for household use; I would call that a clear need for rural and urban electrification. Every day in this world of ours, some 40,000 human beings perish from malnutrition and from easily treated diseases like diarrhea. Another 40,000 lose their lives each month as the result of warfare, all of which is absolutely futile and which has often been cynically fomented by foreign economic interests; I am thinking here of the crisis in Africa most specifically. In Africa, the standard of living of the average family has declined by 20% over the last twenty years. Eighty-nine countries are now worse off than they were at the beginning of the 1990s. 175 million people leave their home countries every year in the desperate search for jobs and food – about 3% of humanity. The price of a human slave on the slave markets of southern Europe at this very moment is about 4,000 euros. In the midst of all this, the two hundred fifty-eight richest persons in the world own more in the way of assets and other property than the poorest 3 billion persons. When two hundred fifty eight own more than half of the human population of the world, I hope you will agree with me that such a world cannot be stable. Yet, this is the world that lies before us. I plan to use my powers as president to ameliorate this situation with every means at my disposal, and I call upon the Congress and upon all citizens to support these steps for a new world economic order that will be more just, more equitable, more prosperous, and more dynamic.
We have now been tested in the crucible of a brutal crisis. From this experience we must take renewed devotion to our best values. The decade of globalization has been revealed as a colossal failure, for ourselves as well as for others. We must find a better, more humane, more equitable way of organizing the affairs of this planet. To do this, we must work closely with almost two hundred sovereign states, and work out the details with them, since every country has an inherent right to economic development, science, technology, and dignity. The old imperialism denied these, and the old imperialism is now on the junkheap of history. In the days to come, my two lodestars will be peace and economic development, seen as the two sides of the same coin. Our world has turned over several times in the past month, but I am more certain than ever that I can count on the support of the American people in getting the world back on the right track. I ask you once again to remember the victims of the recent tragedy in your prayers. Good night."
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The punishment for treason was typically an extended and especially cruel death —used to suppress any resistance to government policy. This remained unreformed until the 19th century. Previously, any method (in theory) could be legally used to carry out the death penalty —most popular in the middle-ages were hanging, drawing and quartering.
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 20 2005, 07:28 PM)
QUOTE (commondreamer+)
as time goes on, everyone will know the truth
Except, apparently you (and your closest appologists for the actual terrorists)
Arthur
PS: So WHO do you think was flying the planes that day?
(let me guess, remote control)
I think that by exposing the truth about this issue we ARE in fact going after the perpetraters of the crime who are the actual terrorists therefore it is YOU that is an appologist for the terrorist based on that.
Who was flying the planes, it does not matter as planting bombs in buildings shows that it was an inside job. The same with, "what happened to the passengers" Does not matter from an anylytical view point.
What matters is that the official story does not make sense nor does it stand up to science. It was an inside job, and the proof was carted off asap to china to cover up the crime, block all investigations.
Who is responsible, who are the terrorists, just look at who benefited, very easy.
Who benefited
Except, apparently you (and your closest appologists for the actual terrorists)
Arthur
PS: So WHO do you think was flying the planes that day?
(let me guess, remote control)
I think that by exposing the truth about this issue we ARE in fact going after the perpetraters of the crime who are the actual terrorists therefore it is YOU that is an appologist for the terrorist based on that.
Who was flying the planes, it does not matter as planting bombs in buildings shows that it was an inside job. The same with, "what happened to the passengers" Does not matter from an anylytical view point.
What matters is that the official story does not make sense nor does it stand up to science. It was an inside job, and the proof was carted off asap to china to cover up the crime, block all investigations.
Who is responsible, who are the terrorists, just look at who benefited, very easy.
Who benefited
Nice, a non-answer answer.
You say it wasn't the alleged terrorists flying the planes that day, so I ask you, who was and you say "its not relevant"
It IS if the official story is bunk.
Why not try posting something that is ACTUALLY relevant?
So far it has all been just a lot of hand waving.
Like YOU know the TRUTH and the rest of us should just believe you.
Tough, don't work that way.
Arthur
You say it wasn't the alleged terrorists flying the planes that day, so I ask you, who was and you say "its not relevant"
It IS if the official story is bunk.
Why not try posting something that is ACTUALLY relevant?
So far it has all been just a lot of hand waving.
Like YOU know the TRUTH and the rest of us should just believe you.
Tough, don't work that way.
Arthur
why not remote control, arthur?
who DID benefit? certainly not obl and crew. unless of course their whole purpose was to remove democracy and install a military dictator in america.
who DID benefit? certainly not obl and crew. unless of course their whole purpose was to remove democracy and install a military dictator in america.
adoucette
Dec 20 2005, 07:28 PM
Hey, I´m pretty sure you´ve had more contact with the real terrorists than the rest of us apparent "terrorist appologists" (sic) put together. I don´t think I really need to point out who apperars to be an apologist for the real terrorists.
Are you aware of this, Arthur ?
Dec 20 2005, 07:28 PM
QUOTE
Except, apparently you (and your closest appologists for the actual terrorists)
Hey, I´m pretty sure you´ve had more contact with the real terrorists than the rest of us apparent "terrorist appologists" (sic) put together. I don´t think I really need to point out who apperars to be an apologist for the real terrorists.
Are you aware of this, Arthur ?
QUOTE (Guest_newton+Dec 20 2005, 08:06 PM)
why not remote control, arthur?
who DID benefit? certainly not obl and crew. unless of course their whole purpose was to remove democracy and install a military dictator in america.
Because it could not be installed without being detected.
Arthur
who DID benefit? certainly not obl and crew. unless of course their whole purpose was to remove democracy and install a military dictator in america.
Because it could not be installed without being detected.
Arthur
QUOTE (frater plecticus+Dec 20 2005, 08:13 PM)
adoucette
Dec 20 2005, 07:28 PM
Hey, I´m pretty sure you´ve had more contact with the real terrorists than the rest of us apparent "terrorist appologists" (sic) put together. I don´t think I really need to point out who apperars to be an apologist for the real terrorists.
Are you aware of this, Arthur ?
ditto
As far as real evidence I believe Andrew Johnson did a very good job in presenting a case that the official story is bunk Arthur. I would go to pages 1 through 3 then read about the paid government shill that was posting on behaf of a NIST contractor. Someone points this very page out to me on another thread, which took me here.
Who or what was flying the planes is not relevent as that really cannot be proven. What seems unlikly is that 19 boxcutter weilding cave dwellers were suddenly discovered to be the perpetrater a few hours after the attack, while they were never on a passenger list to begin with while 4 to 6 of the alleged hi jackers turn up alive as reported by the BBC in 2004. So once again the official story is really THE conspiracy theory here.
Dec 20 2005, 07:28 PM
QUOTE
Except, apparently you (and your closest appologists for the actual terrorists)
Hey, I´m pretty sure you´ve had more contact with the real terrorists than the rest of us apparent "terrorist appologists" (sic) put together. I don´t think I really need to point out who apperars to be an apologist for the real terrorists.
Are you aware of this, Arthur ?
ditto
As far as real evidence I believe Andrew Johnson did a very good job in presenting a case that the official story is bunk Arthur. I would go to pages 1 through 3 then read about the paid government shill that was posting on behaf of a NIST contractor. Someone points this very page out to me on another thread, which took me here.
Who or what was flying the planes is not relevent as that really cannot be proven. What seems unlikly is that 19 boxcutter weilding cave dwellers were suddenly discovered to be the perpetrater a few hours after the attack, while they were never on a passenger list to begin with while 4 to 6 of the alleged hi jackers turn up alive as reported by the BBC in 2004. So once again the official story is really THE conspiracy theory here.
QUOTE (frater plecticus+Dec 20 2005, 08:13 PM)
adoucette
Dec 20 2005, 07:28 PM
Hey, I´m pretty sure you´ve had more contact with the real terrorists than the rest of us apparent "terrorist appologists" (sic) put together. I don´t think I really need to point out who apperars to be an apologist for the real terrorists.
Are you aware of this, Arthur ?
You may believe you are trying to out the "real terrorists", but from where I sit you are aiding and abetting them.
Arthur
Dec 20 2005, 07:28 PM
QUOTE
Except, apparently you (and your closest appologists for the actual terrorists)
Hey, I´m pretty sure you´ve had more contact with the real terrorists than the rest of us apparent "terrorist appologists" (sic) put together. I don´t think I really need to point out who apperars to be an apologist for the real terrorists.
Are you aware of this, Arthur ?
You may believe you are trying to out the "real terrorists", but from where I sit you are aiding and abetting them.
Arthur
nobody has done more to spread 'terror' than the mass media. there's even a colour coded scale to let you know exactly just how scared you should be.
BUY DUCT TAPE AND PLASTIC!!!! (flying camels are bringing billions of tons of mustard gas across the ocean. LOOK OUT!) boy, that run on duct tape went right in to rummy's bank account. no conflict of interest here.... move along.....
the 'terror' of 911 is not so much the randomness of it, as the SENSELESSNESS of it. how the heck do obl and crew benefit? it's like a three yr. old banging a drum in the underfed lion cage.
here's the highly logical terror planners of al-queda....
okay, we have 'pilots' and boxcutters. there are nineteen of us. right now, america is mostly ignoring us(in fact being ORDERED to IGNORE them). here's the plan....
we do big terror act on american soil...
america sends it's massive high tech army to exterminate us...
any questions?
oh, yeah, and the REAL reason is glory in god's eyes.
i heard there's no booze, dope or hookers in heaven, so let's go get smashed on alcohol. last chance before we go to heaven for being so pious.
oh yeah. don't forget to bring a koran or two to leave behind....
BUY DUCT TAPE AND PLASTIC!!!! (flying camels are bringing billions of tons of mustard gas across the ocean. LOOK OUT!) boy, that run on duct tape went right in to rummy's bank account. no conflict of interest here.... move along.....
the 'terror' of 911 is not so much the randomness of it, as the SENSELESSNESS of it. how the heck do obl and crew benefit? it's like a three yr. old banging a drum in the underfed lion cage.
here's the highly logical terror planners of al-queda....
okay, we have 'pilots' and boxcutters. there are nineteen of us. right now, america is mostly ignoring us(in fact being ORDERED to IGNORE them). here's the plan....
we do big terror act on american soil...
america sends it's massive high tech army to exterminate us...
any questions?
oh, yeah, and the REAL reason is glory in god's eyes.
i heard there's no booze, dope or hookers in heaven, so let's go get smashed on alcohol. last chance before we go to heaven for being so pious.
oh yeah. don't forget to bring a koran or two to leave behind....
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 20 2005, 06:21 PM)
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 20 2005, 04:33 PM)
As you CLEARLY don't know; Galileo's law pertains
to fall in a VACUUM. The towers did meet air resistance
but still fell at VACUUM FREE FALL SPEED. After having
read your bunk here I would never expect you to grasp
the significance of this.
Galileo did not deal with objects in a vacuum.
He dealt with Inertia (Newton's first law) and he determined, by rolling balls of different mass down an incline that distance traveled was proportional to time squared.
Newton got around to the gravitational aspect of Galileo's work.
But, this would be relevant IF the towers actually fell at FREE FALL SPEED.
Which they didn't, which is why you use the term "NEAR".
Since they were ACCELERATING, they would of course APPEAR (We don't have EXACT timings) to fall at NEAR (within seconds of) Free Fall Speeds.
Which is what they did.
Time to repack your parachute.
Arthur
This is totally nonsensical.
The towers fell at free fall speed or very close to it
which means that they fell without any resistance at
all. This is simply impossible without some outside
source of energy the most likely being explosives.
The parachute analogy is quite correct. You can't have
it both ways.
I try to explain what this means to some and they just do not get it, at least in a science board it should be easy to see that for no resistance vertually all the support columns had to have been cut at about the same time.
yes a common shill technique, call those that do not support the official story wackos and on and on. So if we reject what we are told to believe we are wackos. The real story here is that we have arrived at our conclusions, not because we are comfortable with it and not because it makes us happy, quite the opposite. But when corruption becomes evident, it is very important to expose those that are carrying out the corruption. The fact you support as an appologist, this corrupt administration speaks volumes as to what your real motives are here.
The fact that and the way that building 7 fell is the easiest smoking gun here.
The fact that the owner freely admitts on 2 occasions that he had the building blown up by controled demolition on 9/11 is beside the fact that the official explanation is hogwash, and is the true conspiracy theory
This is amazing and very telling of the physche of the people who believe in a gov't conspiracy.
yes a common shill technique, call those that do not support the official story wackos and on and on. So if we reject what we are told to believe we are wackos. The real story here is that we have arrived at our conclusions, not because we are comfortable with it and not because it makes us happy, quite the opposite. But when corruption becomes evident, it is very important to expose those that are carrying out the corruption. The fact you support as an appologist, this corrupt administration speaks volumes as to what your real motives are here.
The fact that and the way that building 7 fell is the easiest smoking gun here.
The fact that the owner freely admitts on 2 occasions that he had the building blown up by controled demolition on 9/11 is beside the fact that the official explanation is hogwash, and is the true conspiracy theory
This is amazing and very telling of the physche of the people who believe in a gov't conspiracy.
yes a common shill technique, call those that do not support the official story wackos and on and on
A much more common practice of the non-believers in the official record of 9/11 events is to label those who are on the other side of the arguement , 'shills' and to impune their motives.
I get attacked with acussations of being an agent of some gov't clandestine operation and respond to it. Yet this only serves to cement in the mind of those who attack me that I am an agent.
I was taken to task once by Foxx for using the term 'conspiracy theorist' so I changed it to 'non-believers in the official history of events of 9/11'. Do I get any similar consideration? NO! Instead I continue to get called 'shill' or 'troll'.
FINE, I will revert back to 'conspiracy theorist', 'CT' for short. I will occasionally refer to those CT's as paid shills for the Islamic Terrorists. If this is no to someone's liking then simply let me know that yopu will refrain from using terms I find offensive and I will not use similar terms for you.
You know who you are, silence on this will be considered acceptance of these terms.
adoucette
Posted on Dec 20 2005, 08:22 PM
O.K, Arthur..
It´s a two part question...
1) where are you sitting ?
2) who do you mean by "them". You obviously know their identity, as to come to the conclusion that I am somehow "aiding and abetting them"...
I try to explain what this means to some and they just do not get it, at least in a science board it should be easy to see that for no resistance vertually all the support columns had to have been cut at about the same time.
Clearly these people are unfamiliar with the concept of conservation of energy. Those who are will understand the parachute analogy.
to fall in a VACUUM. The towers did meet air resistance
but still fell at VACUUM FREE FALL SPEED. After having
read your bunk here I would never expect you to grasp
the significance of this.
Galileo did not deal with objects in a vacuum.
He dealt with Inertia (Newton's first law) and he determined, by rolling balls of different mass down an incline that distance traveled was proportional to time squared.
Newton got around to the gravitational aspect of Galileo's work.
But, this would be relevant IF the towers actually fell at FREE FALL SPEED.
Which they didn't, which is why you use the term "NEAR".
Since they were ACCELERATING, they would of course APPEAR (We don't have EXACT timings) to fall at NEAR (within seconds of) Free Fall Speeds.
Which is what they did.
Time to repack your parachute.
Arthur
This is totally nonsensical.
The towers fell at free fall speed or very close to it
which means that they fell without any resistance at
all. This is simply impossible without some outside
source of energy the most likely being explosives.
The parachute analogy is quite correct. You can't have
it both ways.
who are the real terrorists, well back to who benefited,
Who called for another Pearl Harbor event as a pretext for war? The Project for a new American Century.. PNAC
so who are they, we should begin by looking at these characters first
Bush administration
After the 2000 election of George W. Bush, many of the PNAC's members were appointed to key positions within the new President's administration:
Name Department Title Remarks
Elliott Abrams National Security Council Representative for Middle Eastern Affairs President of the Ethics and Public Policy Center
Richard Armitage Department of State (2001-2005) Deputy Secretary of State
John R. Bolton Department of State U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Previously served as Undersecretary for Arms Control and International Security Affairs in the first administration of GWB.
*** Cheney Bush Administration Vice President PNAC founder
Seth Cropsey Voice of America Director of the International Broadcasting Bureau
Paula Dobriansky Department of State Undersecretary of State for Global Affairs
Francis Fukuyama President's Council on Bioethics Council Member Professor of International Political Economy at Johns Hopkins University
Bruce Jackson U.S. Committee on NATO President
Zalmay Khalilzad U.S. Embassy Baghdad, Iraq U.S.Ambassador to Iraq Previously served as U.S. Ambassador to Afghanistan from November 2003 to June 2005
Lewis Libby Bush Administration Chief of Staff for the Vice President Indicted by Grand Jury on charges of Obstruction of Justice, False Statements and Perjury and resigned October 28, 2005.
Peter W. Rodman Department of Defense Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security
Donald Rumsfeld Department of Defense Secretary of Defense PNAC founder and previously Chairman of the Board of Gilead Sciences Developer of Tamiflu
Randy Scheunemann U.S. Committee on NATO, Project on Transitional Democracies, International Republican Institute Member Founded the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq.
Paul Wolfowitz World Bank President Deputy Secretary of Defense, 2001-2005
Dov S. Zakheim Department of Defense Comptroller
Robert B. Zoellick Department of State Deputy Secretary of State Office of the United States Trade Representative (2001-2005);
[edit]
Other members
* Gary Bauer, former presidential candidate, president of American Values
* William J. Bennett, former Secretary of Education and Drug Czar, co-founder of Empower America, author of the Book of Virtues
* Ellen Bork, deputy director of PNAC, and wife of failed Reagan Supreme Court nominee Robert Bork
* Rudy Boschwitz
* Jeb Bush, governor of Florida
* Eliot A. Cohen, professor of strategic studies at Johns Hopkins University
* Thomas Donnelly, director of communications, Lockheed Martin
* Steve Forbes, multi-billionaire publisher of Forbes Magazine, former presidential candidate
* Aaron Friedberg, director of the Center of International Studies
* Frank Gaffney, columnist, founder of Center for Security Policy
* Reuel Marc Gerecht, director of the Middle East Initiative
* Fred Ikle, Center for Strategic and International Studies
* Donald Kagan, Yale University professor, conservative columnist with various State Department ties
* Jeane Kirkpatrick, former U.S. ambassador
* Charles Krauthammer
* William Kristol, a PNAC founder and chairman, editor of the Weekly Standard
* Christopher Maletz
* Daniel McKivergan
* Richard Perle, a PNAC founder, formerly of the Defense Policy Board
* Norman Podhoretz, Hudson Institute
* Dan Quayle, former vice-president
* Stephen Rosen, Beton Michael Kaneb Professor of National Security and Military Affairs, Harvard University
* Henry Rowen, former president of Rand Corporation
* Gary Schmitt
* Vin Weber, former congressman, lobbyist, vice-chairman of Empower America
* George Weigel, political commentator
* R. James Woolsey, former director of the CIA for Bill Clinton, vice-president at Booz Allen & Hamilton
Who called for another Pearl Harbor event as a pretext for war? The Project for a new American Century.. PNAC
so who are they, we should begin by looking at these characters first
Bush administration
After the 2000 election of George W. Bush, many of the PNAC's members were appointed to key positions within the new President's administration:
Name Department Title Remarks
Elliott Abrams National Security Council Representative for Middle Eastern Affairs President of the Ethics and Public Policy Center
Richard Armitage Department of State (2001-2005) Deputy Secretary of State
John R. Bolton Department of State U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Previously served as Undersecretary for Arms Control and International Security Affairs in the first administration of GWB.
*** Cheney Bush Administration Vice President PNAC founder
Seth Cropsey Voice of America Director of the International Broadcasting Bureau
Paula Dobriansky Department of State Undersecretary of State for Global Affairs
Francis Fukuyama President's Council on Bioethics Council Member Professor of International Political Economy at Johns Hopkins University
Bruce Jackson U.S. Committee on NATO President
Zalmay Khalilzad U.S. Embassy Baghdad, Iraq U.S.Ambassador to Iraq Previously served as U.S. Ambassador to Afghanistan from November 2003 to June 2005
Lewis Libby Bush Administration Chief of Staff for the Vice President Indicted by Grand Jury on charges of Obstruction of Justice, False Statements and Perjury and resigned October 28, 2005.
Peter W. Rodman Department of Defense Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security
Donald Rumsfeld Department of Defense Secretary of Defense PNAC founder and previously Chairman of the Board of Gilead Sciences Developer of Tamiflu
Randy Scheunemann U.S. Committee on NATO, Project on Transitional Democracies, International Republican Institute Member Founded the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq.
Paul Wolfowitz World Bank President Deputy Secretary of Defense, 2001-2005
Dov S. Zakheim Department of Defense Comptroller
Robert B. Zoellick Department of State Deputy Secretary of State Office of the United States Trade Representative (2001-2005);
[edit]
Other members
* Gary Bauer, former presidential candidate, president of American Values
* William J. Bennett, former Secretary of Education and Drug Czar, co-founder of Empower America, author of the Book of Virtues
* Ellen Bork, deputy director of PNAC, and wife of failed Reagan Supreme Court nominee Robert Bork
* Rudy Boschwitz
* Jeb Bush, governor of Florida
* Eliot A. Cohen, professor of strategic studies at Johns Hopkins University
* Thomas Donnelly, director of communications, Lockheed Martin
* Steve Forbes, multi-billionaire publisher of Forbes Magazine, former presidential candidate
* Aaron Friedberg, director of the Center of International Studies
* Frank Gaffney, columnist, founder of Center for Security Policy
* Reuel Marc Gerecht, director of the Middle East Initiative
* Fred Ikle, Center for Strategic and International Studies
* Donald Kagan, Yale University professor, conservative columnist with various State Department ties
* Jeane Kirkpatrick, former U.S. ambassador
* Charles Krauthammer
* William Kristol, a PNAC founder and chairman, editor of the Weekly Standard
* Christopher Maletz
* Daniel McKivergan
* Richard Perle, a PNAC founder, formerly of the Defense Policy Board
* Norman Podhoretz, Hudson Institute
* Dan Quayle, former vice-president
* Stephen Rosen, Beton Michael Kaneb Professor of National Security and Military Affairs, Harvard University
* Henry Rowen, former president of Rand Corporation
* Gary Schmitt
* Vin Weber, former congressman, lobbyist, vice-chairman of Empower America
* George Weigel, political commentator
* R. James Woolsey, former director of the CIA for Bill Clinton, vice-president at Booz Allen & Hamilton
QUOTE
This is totally nonsensical.
The towers fell at free fall speed or very close to it
which means that they fell without any resistance at
all. This is simply impossible without some outside
source of energy the most likely being explosives.
The parachute analogy is quite correct. You can't have
it both ways.
The towers fell at free fall speed or very close to it
which means that they fell without any resistance at
all. This is simply impossible without some outside
source of energy the most likely being explosives.
The parachute analogy is quite correct. You can't have
it both ways.
I try to explain what this means to some and they just do not get it, at least in a science board it should be easy to see that for no resistance vertually all the support columns had to have been cut at about the same time.
QUOTE (commondreamer+Dec 20 2005, 06:59 PM)
QUOTE
Your paranoia level is increasing Foxx, better ask for better meds. .... Kidding of course, I have no idea why you would post some of the stuff that you do when some of it is patently,,, uh,,, rediculous. (I can't think of a nice way to say it, sorry Foxx)
yes a common shill technique, call those that do not support the official story wackos and on and on. So if we reject what we are told to believe we are wackos. The real story here is that we have arrived at our conclusions, not because we are comfortable with it and not because it makes us happy, quite the opposite. But when corruption becomes evident, it is very important to expose those that are carrying out the corruption. The fact you support as an appologist, this corrupt administration speaks volumes as to what your real motives are here.
The fact that and the way that building 7 fell is the easiest smoking gun here.
The fact that the owner freely admitts on 2 occasions that he had the building blown up by controled demolition on 9/11 is beside the fact that the official explanation is hogwash, and is the true conspiracy theory
This is amazing and very telling of the physche of the people who believe in a gov't conspiracy.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Your paranoia level is increasing Foxx, better ask for better meds. .... Kidding of course, I have no idea why you would post some of the stuff that you do when some of it is patently,,, uh,,, rediculous. (I can't think of a nice way to say it, sorry Foxx) |
yes a common shill technique, call those that do not support the official story wackos and on and on. So if we reject what we are told to believe we are wackos. The real story here is that we have arrived at our conclusions, not because we are comfortable with it and not because it makes us happy, quite the opposite. But when corruption becomes evident, it is very important to expose those that are carrying out the corruption. The fact you support as an appologist, this corrupt administration speaks volumes as to what your real motives are here.
The fact that and the way that building 7 fell is the easiest smoking gun here.
The fact that the owner freely admitts on 2 occasions that he had the building blown up by controled demolition on 9/11 is beside the fact that the official explanation is hogwash, and is the true conspiracy theory
This is amazing and very telling of the physche of the people who believe in a gov't conspiracy.
yes a common shill technique, call those that do not support the official story wackos and on and on
A much more common practice of the non-believers in the official record of 9/11 events is to label those who are on the other side of the arguement , 'shills' and to impune their motives.
I get attacked with acussations of being an agent of some gov't clandestine operation and respond to it. Yet this only serves to cement in the mind of those who attack me that I am an agent.
I was taken to task once by Foxx for using the term 'conspiracy theorist' so I changed it to 'non-believers in the official history of events of 9/11'. Do I get any similar consideration? NO! Instead I continue to get called 'shill' or 'troll'.
FINE, I will revert back to 'conspiracy theorist', 'CT' for short. I will occasionally refer to those CT's as paid shills for the Islamic Terrorists. If this is no to someone's liking then simply let me know that yopu will refrain from using terms I find offensive and I will not use similar terms for you.
You know who you are, silence on this will be considered acceptance of these terms.
adoucette
Posted on Dec 20 2005, 08:22 PM
QUOTE
You may believe you are trying to out the "real terrorists", but from where I sit you are aiding and abetting them.
O.K, Arthur..
It´s a two part question...
1) where are you sitting ?
2) who do you mean by "them". You obviously know their identity, as to come to the conclusion that I am somehow "aiding and abetting them"...
QUOTE (commondreamer+Dec 20 2005, 08:38 PM)
QUOTE
This is totally nonsensical.
The towers fell at free fall speed or very close to it
which means that they fell without any resistance at
all. This is simply impossible without some outside
source of energy the most likely being explosives.
The parachute analogy is quite correct. You can't have
it both ways.
The towers fell at free fall speed or very close to it
which means that they fell without any resistance at
all. This is simply impossible without some outside
source of energy the most likely being explosives.
The parachute analogy is quite correct. You can't have
it both ways.
I try to explain what this means to some and they just do not get it, at least in a science board it should be easy to see that for no resistance vertually all the support columns had to have been cut at about the same time.
Clearly these people are unfamiliar with the concept of conservation of energy. Those who are will understand the parachute analogy.
December 20, 2005
A CounterPunch Special Report
Did the Bush Administration Lie to Congress and the 9/11 Commission?
9/11: Missing Black Boxes in World Trade Center Attacks Found by Firefighters, Analyzed by NTSB, Concealed by FBI
By DAVE LINDORFF
http://www.counterpunch.com/
One of the more puzzling mysteries of 9-11 is what ever happened to the flight recorders of the two planes that hit the World Trade Center towers. Now it appears that they may not be missing at all.
Counterpunch has learned that the FBI has them.
Flight recorders (commonly known as black boxes, though these days they are generally bright orange) are required on all passenger planes. There are always two-a flight data recorder that keeps track of a plane's speed, altitude, course and maneuvers, and a cockpit voice recorder which keeps a continuous record of the last 30 minutes of conversation inside a plane's cockpit. These devices are constructed to be extremely durable, and are installed in a plane's tail section, where they are least likely suffer damaged on impact. They are designed to withstand up to 30 minutes of 1800-degree heat (more than they would have faced in the twin towers crashes), and to survive a crash at full speed into the ground.
All four of the devices were recovered from the two planes that hit the Pentagon and that crashed in rural Pennsylvania. In the case of American Airlines Flight 77, which hit the Pentagon, the FBI reports that the flight data recorder survived and had recoverable information, but the voice recorder was allegedly too damaged to provide any record. In the case of United Airlines Flight 93, which hit the ground at 500 mph in Pennsylvania, the situation was reversed: the voice recorder survived but the flight data box was allegedly damaged beyond recovery.
But the FBI states, and also reported to the 9-11 Commission, that none of the recording devices from the two planes that hit the World Trade Center were ever recovered.
There has always been some skepticism about this assertion, particularly as two N.Y. City firefighters, Mike Bellone and Nicholas De Masi, claimed in 2004 that they had found three of the four boxes, and that Federal agents took them and told the two men not to mention having found them. (The FBI denies the whole story.) Moreover, these devices are almost always located after crashes, even if not in useable condition (and the cleanup of the World Trade Center was meticulous, with even tiny bone fragments and bits of human tissue being discovered so that almost all the victims were ultimately identified). As Ted Lopatkiewicz, director of public affairs at the National Transportation Safety Agency which has the job of analyzing the boxes' data, says, "It's very unusual not to find a recorder after a crash, although it's also very unusual to have jets flying into buildings."
Now there is stronger evidence that something is amiss than simply the alleged non-recovery of all four of those boxes. A source at the National Transportation Safety Board, the agency that has the task of deciphering the date from the black boxes retrieved from crash sites-including those that are being handled as crimes and fall under the jurisdiction of the FBI-says the boxes were in fact recovered and were analyzed by the NTSB.
"Off the record, we had the boxes," the source says. "You'd have to get the official word from the FBI as to where they are, but we worked on them here."
The official word from the NTSB is that the WTC crash site black boxes never turned up. "No recorders were recovered from the World Trade Center," says the NTSB's Lopatkiewicz. "At least none were delivered to us by the FBI." He adds that the agency has "always had a good relationship' with the FBI and that in all prior crime-related crashes or flight incidents, they have brought the boxes to the NTSB for analysis.
For its part, the FBI is still denying everything, though with curious bit of linguistic wiggle room. "To the best of my knowledge, the flight recording devices from the World Trade Center crashes were never recovered. At least we never had them," says FBI spokesman Stephen Kodak.
What the apparent existence of the black boxes in government hands means is unclear.
If the information in those boxes is recoverable, or if, as is likely, it has been recovered already, it could give crucial evidence regarding the skill of the hijacker/pilots, perhaps of their strategy, of whether they were getting outside help in guiding them to their targets, of how fast they were flying and a host of other things.
Why would the main intelligence and law enforcement arm of the U.S. government want to hide from the public not just the available information about the two hijacked flights that provided the motivation and justification for the nation's "War on Terror" and for its two wars against Afghanistan and Iraq, but even the fact that it has the devices which could contain that information? Conspiracy theories abound, with some claiming the planes were actually pilotless military aircraft, or that they had little or nothing to do with the building collapses. The easiest way to quash such rumors and such fevered thinking would be openness.
Instead we have the opposite: a dark secrecy that invites many questions regarding the potentially embarrassing or perhaps even sinister information that might be on those tapes.
Dave Lindorff is the author of Killing Time: an Investigation into the Death Row Case of Mumia Abu-Jamal. His new book of CounterPunch columns titled "This Can't be Happening!" is published by Common Courage Press. Information about both books and other work by Lindorff can be found at www.thiscantbehappening.net.
He can be reached at: dlindorff@yahoo.com
A CounterPunch Special Report
Did the Bush Administration Lie to Congress and the 9/11 Commission?
9/11: Missing Black Boxes in World Trade Center Attacks Found by Firefighters, Analyzed by NTSB, Concealed by FBI
By DAVE LINDORFF
http://www.counterpunch.com/
One of the more puzzling mysteries of 9-11 is what ever happened to the flight recorders of the two planes that hit the World Trade Center towers. Now it appears that they may not be missing at all.
Counterpunch has learned that the FBI has them.
Flight recorders (commonly known as black boxes, though these days they are generally bright orange) are required on all passenger planes. There are always two-a flight data recorder that keeps track of a plane's speed, altitude, course and maneuvers, and a cockpit voice recorder which keeps a continuous record of the last 30 minutes of conversation inside a plane's cockpit. These devices are constructed to be extremely durable, and are installed in a plane's tail section, where they are least likely suffer damaged on impact. They are designed to withstand up to 30 minutes of 1800-degree heat (more than they would have faced in the twin towers crashes), and to survive a crash at full speed into the ground.
All four of the devices were recovered from the two planes that hit the Pentagon and that crashed in rural Pennsylvania. In the case of American Airlines Flight 77, which hit the Pentagon, the FBI reports that the flight data recorder survived and had recoverable information, but the voice recorder was allegedly too damaged to provide any record. In the case of United Airlines Flight 93, which hit the ground at 500 mph in Pennsylvania, the situation was reversed: the voice recorder survived but the flight data box was allegedly damaged beyond recovery.
But the FBI states, and also reported to the 9-11 Commission, that none of the recording devices from the two planes that hit the World Trade Center were ever recovered.
There has always been some skepticism about this assertion, particularly as two N.Y. City firefighters, Mike Bellone and Nicholas De Masi, claimed in 2004 that they had found three of the four boxes, and that Federal agents took them and told the two men not to mention having found them. (The FBI denies the whole story.) Moreover, these devices are almost always located after crashes, even if not in useable condition (and the cleanup of the World Trade Center was meticulous, with even tiny bone fragments and bits of human tissue being discovered so that almost all the victims were ultimately identified). As Ted Lopatkiewicz, director of public affairs at the National Transportation Safety Agency which has the job of analyzing the boxes' data, says, "It's very unusual not to find a recorder after a crash, although it's also very unusual to have jets flying into buildings."
Now there is stronger evidence that something is amiss than simply the alleged non-recovery of all four of those boxes. A source at the National Transportation Safety Board, the agency that has the task of deciphering the date from the black boxes retrieved from crash sites-including those that are being handled as crimes and fall under the jurisdiction of the FBI-says the boxes were in fact recovered and were analyzed by the NTSB.
"Off the record, we had the boxes," the source says. "You'd have to get the official word from the FBI as to where they are, but we worked on them here."
The official word from the NTSB is that the WTC crash site black boxes never turned up. "No recorders were recovered from the World Trade Center," says the NTSB's Lopatkiewicz. "At least none were delivered to us by the FBI." He adds that the agency has "always had a good relationship' with the FBI and that in all prior crime-related crashes or flight incidents, they have brought the boxes to the NTSB for analysis.
For its part, the FBI is still denying everything, though with curious bit of linguistic wiggle room. "To the best of my knowledge, the flight recording devices from the World Trade Center crashes were never recovered. At least we never had them," says FBI spokesman Stephen Kodak.
What the apparent existence of the black boxes in government hands means is unclear.
If the information in those boxes is recoverable, or if, as is likely, it has been recovered already, it could give crucial evidence regarding the skill of the hijacker/pilots, perhaps of their strategy, of whether they were getting outside help in guiding them to their targets, of how fast they were flying and a host of other things.
Why would the main intelligence and law enforcement arm of the U.S. government want to hide from the public not just the available information about the two hijacked flights that provided the motivation and justification for the nation's "War on Terror" and for its two wars against Afghanistan and Iraq, but even the fact that it has the devices which could contain that information? Conspiracy theories abound, with some claiming the planes were actually pilotless military aircraft, or that they had little or nothing to do with the building collapses. The easiest way to quash such rumors and such fevered thinking would be openness.
Instead we have the opposite: a dark secrecy that invites many questions regarding the potentially embarrassing or perhaps even sinister information that might be on those tapes.
Dave Lindorff is the author of Killing Time: an Investigation into the Death Row Case of Mumia Abu-Jamal. His new book of CounterPunch columns titled "This Can't be Happening!" is published by Common Courage Press. Information about both books and other work by Lindorff can be found at www.thiscantbehappening.net.
He can be reached at: dlindorff@yahoo.com
A parachute slows the desent by increasing the area in the direction of fall without increasing the the mass appreciabley. This lowers the terminal velocity of the fall to that which a human can survive.
Newer parachutes also employ a wing shape to give the parachute some lift and slow the fall even more while also adding a level of control of direction not available to earlier chutes.
So given that I do in fact know how a parachute does its job now explain how this relates to the collapse of 110 story skyscrapers.
Newer parachutes also employ a wing shape to give the parachute some lift and slow the fall even more while also adding a level of control of direction not available to earlier chutes.
So given that I do in fact know how a parachute does its job now explain how this relates to the collapse of 110 story skyscrapers.
Lets take a look back to what happened before
farang
Posted: Oct 6 2005, 05:30 AM
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It is heartening to see that the horrific crime of 911, for which NO ONE has been apprehended in my country, is still a burning issue for those that see a real problem in officialdom's explanation (or in the case of WTC 7, simply ignoring the issue entirely, which is cause of suspicion in and of itself for any reasonable person) of that day's events.
I wish those finding fault in Mr. Johnson's conclusions would state specifically what those are, not keep referring to something not in the reply. Damn sure would like to see ANY logical rebuttal.
In other words, I see no rebuttal to his statement that physics rules out a kerosene fire melting and collapsing three steel buildings in this manner.
That's fairly straightforward, and should be simple to refute, yet I see nothing but anger, resentment, insults and false statements about the structural strength (or lack thereof) of the two towers (the core should have stayed upright, with plane parts stuck to it). Not to mention how one poster claimed modeling a 22 second free fall, then stated a 13 second free fall, without explaining his conflicting statements.
Look, I am not a scientist, nor a physicist, nor structural engineer.
I am a Boilermaker, Shipbuilder, Blacksmith Forger and helper. Union. Now a contractor on military facilities. I build steel storage tanks for jet fuel. A few years ago, a typhoon blew through, and I got to watch a Mobil AST, with @ 1,000,000 gallons of diesel in it, get hit with lightning, the grounding failed, and the million gallons BLEW!!
Well, for a diesel fire that is. it simply caught fire, burned itself out after 4 days, blackened the steel. Catch that? One million gallons of diesel fuel, burned for 4 days, didn't melt squat. Tank, 1/4" steel, never melted.
Yet HUGE core I-beams, supporting the elevator and utility shafts, were VAPORISED at the WTC towers? Stop, I'll wet my britches laughing.
I've melted, welded, forged, bent, twisted, repaired sheared, punched, formed, plated, blasted and coated just about every metal you see used commonly in industry and construction, for over 32 years. I 've welded many a steel I-beam: purlin clips, joining plates, you name it.
I ask you plainly: you know the explosion you see after the second plane hits the tower?
a_ht, what caused that?
Tell me you believe, like me, it was the JP-8 (yes, I work with jet fuel daily, too) contained in the jet's tanks, correct?
Huge explosion, you say you were there that day? Your father? He see this huge fireball?
What was it?
Because, if it was the kerosene (JP-8, acts just like diesel, you can put it right in your diesel tank, works great, low flash point of 140 deg) that did explode that way, that you state so assuredly melted steel,
explain how it reconstituted itself after exploding, and put itself back inside the building, and THEN what?
Ran down 90 floors to melt the "uninsulated I-beams"? What? "Shook" it off by jet impact? Are you kiddin' me? When the jet hit, it did not even knock folks down in the building below!!! What nonsense, a_ht!!
Because I KNOW the dimensions of a 14,000 gallon fuel tank. About the size on one of the many offices on the floor hit. That's all, a_ht. The size of one office.
Yet, you would have me believe NOT my own eyes, that see an explosion of huge proportions caused by the impact of the jet plane, but rather a tale that says exploded fuel turned back into liquid form, and only <14,000 gallons, a ridiculously small amount of fuel, ran 90 stories down the stairways (the stairwells the firefighters used to come up to see "small fires") and caused the beams to melt because the impact "knocked of the insulation".
One reply to that: WTC 7. Not hit, there goes THAT THEORY.
Melted steel bends. NEVER turns to dust. Never. No, not ever.
Say, how about this for argument: From now on, CDI never needs to use sophisticated computer analysis on where to place the explosives, amounts, sequences, no, no no. We can simply use a_ht's rational analysis, pour @ 10,000 gallons of diesel fuel in the basement, stand back, and watch a PERFECTLY SIMULATED controlled demolition, right? Right, a_ht? or, are you incorrect here?
a_ht, Mr. Jackson's British, I believe. Very polite, considerate.
I am not, I am just a blunt American: I believe you to be an Israeli disinformation agent.
Yes, obviously, the buildings were pre-rigged for controlled demolitions.
I never thought I would see the day my country chased the rabbit down the hole...and I would wake up in a land where black is white, up is down, liars are heroes, and criminals in charge of our government, and 19 "Arab Terrorists" could make physics stand down while they attacked.
Yet.....
Physics don't "stand down" for anyone. Therefore, I believe 19 Arab hijackers flying planes into the towers did not bring down the buildings on 911.
Obviously.
a_ht
Posted: Oct 6 2005, 04:28 PM
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Group: Members
Posts: 250
Member No.: 2674
Joined: 3-October 04
I am not an Israely information agent, and I take offense.
I work at the American society of civil engineer, an office which contributed massively at the NIST report. I work at the public relation department, so if I seem angry when I post, its because my *** is on the line; they want to shut down our department because of people like you who oppose the official version. Politicians don't want another scandal.
Ahhh yes he admitts that he is a shill, but once again someone speaks up that he just does not believe what he is being told to believe. A good approach I think.
you government apologists that chime in over and over as unregistered, pretty obvious there
farang
Posted: Oct 6 2005, 05:30 AM
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Joined: 6-October 05
It is heartening to see that the horrific crime of 911, for which NO ONE has been apprehended in my country, is still a burning issue for those that see a real problem in officialdom's explanation (or in the case of WTC 7, simply ignoring the issue entirely, which is cause of suspicion in and of itself for any reasonable person) of that day's events.
I wish those finding fault in Mr. Johnson's conclusions would state specifically what those are, not keep referring to something not in the reply. Damn sure would like to see ANY logical rebuttal.
In other words, I see no rebuttal to his statement that physics rules out a kerosene fire melting and collapsing three steel buildings in this manner.
That's fairly straightforward, and should be simple to refute, yet I see nothing but anger, resentment, insults and false statements about the structural strength (or lack thereof) of the two towers (the core should have stayed upright, with plane parts stuck to it). Not to mention how one poster claimed modeling a 22 second free fall, then stated a 13 second free fall, without explaining his conflicting statements.
Look, I am not a scientist, nor a physicist, nor structural engineer.
I am a Boilermaker, Shipbuilder, Blacksmith Forger and helper. Union. Now a contractor on military facilities. I build steel storage tanks for jet fuel. A few years ago, a typhoon blew through, and I got to watch a Mobil AST, with @ 1,000,000 gallons of diesel in it, get hit with lightning, the grounding failed, and the million gallons BLEW!!
Well, for a diesel fire that is. it simply caught fire, burned itself out after 4 days, blackened the steel. Catch that? One million gallons of diesel fuel, burned for 4 days, didn't melt squat. Tank, 1/4" steel, never melted.
Yet HUGE core I-beams, supporting the elevator and utility shafts, were VAPORISED at the WTC towers? Stop, I'll wet my britches laughing.
I've melted, welded, forged, bent, twisted, repaired sheared, punched, formed, plated, blasted and coated just about every metal you see used commonly in industry and construction, for over 32 years. I 've welded many a steel I-beam: purlin clips, joining plates, you name it.
I ask you plainly: you know the explosion you see after the second plane hits the tower?
a_ht, what caused that?
Tell me you believe, like me, it was the JP-8 (yes, I work with jet fuel daily, too) contained in the jet's tanks, correct?
Huge explosion, you say you were there that day? Your father? He see this huge fireball?
What was it?
Because, if it was the kerosene (JP-8, acts just like diesel, you can put it right in your diesel tank, works great, low flash point of 140 deg) that did explode that way, that you state so assuredly melted steel,
explain how it reconstituted itself after exploding, and put itself back inside the building, and THEN what?
Ran down 90 floors to melt the "uninsulated I-beams"? What? "Shook" it off by jet impact? Are you kiddin' me? When the jet hit, it did not even knock folks down in the building below!!! What nonsense, a_ht!!
Because I KNOW the dimensions of a 14,000 gallon fuel tank. About the size on one of the many offices on the floor hit. That's all, a_ht. The size of one office.
Yet, you would have me believe NOT my own eyes, that see an explosion of huge proportions caused by the impact of the jet plane, but rather a tale that says exploded fuel turned back into liquid form, and only <14,000 gallons, a ridiculously small amount of fuel, ran 90 stories down the stairways (the stairwells the firefighters used to come up to see "small fires") and caused the beams to melt because the impact "knocked of the insulation".
One reply to that: WTC 7. Not hit, there goes THAT THEORY.
Melted steel bends. NEVER turns to dust. Never. No, not ever.
Say, how about this for argument: From now on, CDI never needs to use sophisticated computer analysis on where to place the explosives, amounts, sequences, no, no no. We can simply use a_ht's rational analysis, pour @ 10,000 gallons of diesel fuel in the basement, stand back, and watch a PERFECTLY SIMULATED controlled demolition, right? Right, a_ht? or, are you incorrect here?
a_ht, Mr. Jackson's British, I believe. Very polite, considerate.
I am not, I am just a blunt American: I believe you to be an Israeli disinformation agent.
Yes, obviously, the buildings were pre-rigged for controlled demolitions.
I never thought I would see the day my country chased the rabbit down the hole...and I would wake up in a land where black is white, up is down, liars are heroes, and criminals in charge of our government, and 19 "Arab Terrorists" could make physics stand down while they attacked.
Yet.....
Physics don't "stand down" for anyone. Therefore, I believe 19 Arab hijackers flying planes into the towers did not bring down the buildings on 911.
Obviously.
a_ht
Posted: Oct 6 2005, 04:28 PM
Report Post Quote Post
Advanced Member
*****
Group: Members
Posts: 250
Member No.: 2674
Joined: 3-October 04
I am not an Israely information agent, and I take offense.
I work at the American society of civil engineer, an office which contributed massively at the NIST report. I work at the public relation department, so if I seem angry when I post, its because my *** is on the line; they want to shut down our department because of people like you who oppose the official version. Politicians don't want another scandal.
Ahhh yes he admitts that he is a shill, but once again someone speaks up that he just does not believe what he is being told to believe. A good approach I think.
you government apologists that chime in over and over as unregistered, pretty obvious there
By conservation of energy, a destructive collapse
of the WTC towers (a gravity driven event) from above
at anywhere at or near free-fall speeds, was impossible.
Otherwise, parachutes wouldn't work.
This should be pretty elementary, especially at a science board.
of the WTC towers (a gravity driven event) from above
at anywhere at or near free-fall speeds, was impossible.
Otherwise, parachutes wouldn't work.
This should be pretty elementary, especially at a science board.
QUOTE (frater plecticus+Dec 20 2005, 08:42 PM)
adoucette
Posted on Dec 20 2005, 08:22 PM
O.K, Arthur..
It´s a two part question...
1) where are you sitting ?
2) who do you mean by "them". You obviously know their identity, as to come to the conclusion that I am somehow "aiding and abetting them"...
1) From my frame of reference, having read extensively on the subject, I am TOTALLY convinced that 19 hijackers, financed and planned by Al Qaeda (particularly Atta and Bin Ladin, Khalid Sheik Mohammed and Ramzi Binalshibh), took control of 4 planes on Sept 11, 2001 and crashed them into the WTC towers, the Pentagon and a field in Penn. The planes were not on remote control, the towers were not brought down by explosives, and Silverstein saying "Pull it", was referring to attempts to put out the fire.
2) See 1 above.
Arthur
Posted on Dec 20 2005, 08:22 PM
QUOTE
You may believe you are trying to out the "real terrorists", but from where I sit you are aiding and abetting them.
O.K, Arthur..
It´s a two part question...
1) where are you sitting ?
2) who do you mean by "them". You obviously know their identity, as to come to the conclusion that I am somehow "aiding and abetting them"...
1) From my frame of reference, having read extensively on the subject, I am TOTALLY convinced that 19 hijackers, financed and planned by Al Qaeda (particularly Atta and Bin Ladin, Khalid Sheik Mohammed and Ramzi Binalshibh), took control of 4 planes on Sept 11, 2001 and crashed them into the WTC towers, the Pentagon and a field in Penn. The planes were not on remote control, the towers were not brought down by explosives, and Silverstein saying "Pull it", was referring to attempts to put out the fire.
2) See 1 above.
Arthur
Some of those "hijackers" are still alive.
The identity of the others if they really were
there at all is an open question.
The identity of the others if they really were
there at all is an open question.
Foxx, I have taken your point and registered. I kept forgetting to post my name then thought it of no importance but you are correct.
When you are the terrorist, or an apologist for terror, a hard neck is necessary, this is evident enough here on this thread but your Vice President took the biscuit yesterday -
Nationwide spying could have averted 9/11: Cheney
WASHINGTON:
-In his first comment on a new rights controversy that has hit the US administration, Cheney said: “It’s the kind of capability if we’d had before 9/11 might have led us to be able to prevent 9/11.”
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?p...0-12-2005_pg4_7
In the light of Michael Ruppert's statement to The Commonwealth Club California it would appear Mr Cheney has no intention of pleading guilty -
"In my book I will make several key points:
1. I will name Richard Cheney as the prime suspect in the mass murders of 9/11 and will establish that, not only was he a planner in the attacks, but also that on the day of the attacks he was running a completely separate command, control and communications system which was superceding any orders being issued by the NMCC, or the White House Situation Room......"
http://www.globalpublicmedia.com/transcripts/159
When you are the terrorist, or an apologist for terror, a hard neck is necessary, this is evident enough here on this thread but your Vice President took the biscuit yesterday -
Nationwide spying could have averted 9/11: Cheney
WASHINGTON:
-In his first comment on a new rights controversy that has hit the US administration, Cheney said: “It’s the kind of capability if we’d had before 9/11 might have led us to be able to prevent 9/11.”
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?p...0-12-2005_pg4_7
In the light of Michael Ruppert's statement to The Commonwealth Club California it would appear Mr Cheney has no intention of pleading guilty -
"In my book I will make several key points:
1. I will name Richard Cheney as the prime suspect in the mass murders of 9/11 and will establish that, not only was he a planner in the attacks, but also that on the day of the attacks he was running a completely separate command, control and communications system which was superceding any orders being issued by the NMCC, or the White House Situation Room......"
http://www.globalpublicmedia.com/transcripts/159
Sunday, 23 September, 2001, 12:30 GMT 13:30 UK
Hijack 'suspects' alive and well
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1559151.stm
Waleed Al Shehri
Waleed Al Shehri left the US a year ago, he says
Another of the men named by the FBI as a hijacker in the suicide attacks on Washington and New York has turned up alive and well.
The identities of four of the 19 suspects accused of having carried out the attacks are now in doubt.
Saudi Arabian pilot Waleed Al Shehri was one of five men that the FBI said had deliberately crashed American Airlines flight 11 into the World Trade Centre on 11 September.
His photograph was released, and has since appeared in newspapers and on television around the world.
Hijacking suspects
Flight 175: Marwan Al-Shehhi, Fayez Ahmed, Mohald Alshehri, Hamza Alghamdi and Ahmed Alghamdi
Flight 11: Waleed M Alshehri, Wail Alshehri, Mohamed Atta, Abdulaziz Alomari and Satam Al Suqami
Flight 77: Khalid Al-Midhar, Majed Moqed, Nawaq Alhamzi, Salem Alhamzi and Hani Hanjour
Flight 93: Ahmed Alhaznawi, Ahmed Alnami, Ziad Jarrahi and Saeed Alghamdi
Now he is protesting his innocence from Casablanca, Morocco.
He told journalists there that he had nothing to do with the attacks on New York and Washington, and had been in Morocco when they happened. He has contacted both the Saudi and American authorities, according to Saudi press reports.
He acknowledges that he attended flight training school at Daytona Beach in the United States, and is indeed the same Waleed Al Shehri to whom the FBI has been referring.
But, he says, he left the United States in September last year, became a pilot with Saudi Arabian airlines and is currently on a further training course in Morocco.
Mistaken identity
Abdulaziz Al Omari, another of the Flight 11 hijack suspects, has also been quoted in Arab news reports.
Abdelaziz Al Omari
Abdelaziz Al Omari 'lost his passport in Denver'
He says he is an engineer with Saudi Telecoms, and that he lost his passport while studying in Denver.
Another man with exactly the same name surfaced on the pages of the English-language Arab News.
The second Abdulaziz Al Omari is a pilot for Saudi Arabian Airlines, the report says.
Meanwhile, Asharq Al Awsat newspaper, a London-based Arabic daily, says it has interviewed Saeed Alghamdi.
Khalid Al-Midhar
Khalid Al-Midhar may also be alive
He was listed by the FBI as a hijacker in the United flight that crashed in Pennsylvania.
And there are suggestions that another suspect, Khalid Al Midhar, may also be alive.
FBI Director Robert Mueller acknowledged on Thursday that the identity of several of the suicide hijackers is in doubt.
Hijack 'suspects' alive and well
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1559151.stm
Waleed Al Shehri
Waleed Al Shehri left the US a year ago, he says
Another of the men named by the FBI as a hijacker in the suicide attacks on Washington and New York has turned up alive and well.
The identities of four of the 19 suspects accused of having carried out the attacks are now in doubt.
Saudi Arabian pilot Waleed Al Shehri was one of five men that the FBI said had deliberately crashed American Airlines flight 11 into the World Trade Centre on 11 September.
His photograph was released, and has since appeared in newspapers and on television around the world.
Hijacking suspects
Flight 175: Marwan Al-Shehhi, Fayez Ahmed, Mohald Alshehri, Hamza Alghamdi and Ahmed Alghamdi
Flight 11: Waleed M Alshehri, Wail Alshehri, Mohamed Atta, Abdulaziz Alomari and Satam Al Suqami
Flight 77: Khalid Al-Midhar, Majed Moqed, Nawaq Alhamzi, Salem Alhamzi and Hani Hanjour
Flight 93: Ahmed Alhaznawi, Ahmed Alnami, Ziad Jarrahi and Saeed Alghamdi
Now he is protesting his innocence from Casablanca, Morocco.
He told journalists there that he had nothing to do with the attacks on New York and Washington, and had been in Morocco when they happened. He has contacted both the Saudi and American authorities, according to Saudi press reports.
He acknowledges that he attended flight training school at Daytona Beach in the United States, and is indeed the same Waleed Al Shehri to whom the FBI has been referring.
But, he says, he left the United States in September last year, became a pilot with Saudi Arabian airlines and is currently on a further training course in Morocco.
Mistaken identity
Abdulaziz Al Omari, another of the Flight 11 hijack suspects, has also been quoted in Arab news reports.
Abdelaziz Al Omari
Abdelaziz Al Omari 'lost his passport in Denver'
He says he is an engineer with Saudi Telecoms, and that he lost his passport while studying in Denver.
Another man with exactly the same name surfaced on the pages of the English-language Arab News.
The second Abdulaziz Al Omari is a pilot for Saudi Arabian Airlines, the report says.
Meanwhile, Asharq Al Awsat newspaper, a London-based Arabic daily, says it has interviewed Saeed Alghamdi.
Khalid Al-Midhar
Khalid Al-Midhar may also be alive
He was listed by the FBI as a hijacker in the United flight that crashed in Pennsylvania.
And there are suggestions that another suspect, Khalid Al Midhar, may also be alive.
FBI Director Robert Mueller acknowledged on Thursday that the identity of several of the suicide hijackers is in doubt.
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 20 2005, 09:05 PM)
QUOTE (frater plecticus+Dec 20 2005, 08:42 PM)
adoucette
Posted on Dec 20 2005, 08:22 PM
O.K, Arthur..
It´s a two part question...
1) where are you sitting ?
2) who do you mean by "them". You obviously know their identity, as to come to the conclusion that I am somehow "aiding and abetting them"...
1) From my frame of reference, having read extensively on the subject, I am TOTALLY convinced that 19 hijackers, financed and planned by Al Qaeda (particularly Atta and Bin Ladin, Khalid Sheik Mohammed and Ramzi Binalshibh), took control of 4 planes on Sept 11, 2001 and crashed them into the WTC towers, the Pentagon and a field in Penn. The planes were not on remote control, the towers were not brought down by explosives, and Silverstein saying "Pull it", was referring to attempts to put out the fire.
2) See 1 above.
Arthur
Ok then, go back to sleep sheeple, the magic bullet theory is perfect. the Gulf Of Tonkin incident really happened. Poland attacked Germany.
So basically trust government and politions and their ilk as they would never lie or do us harm.
CT s are not real
CT s are not real
Ct s are not real clicking shoes three times
Posted on Dec 20 2005, 08:22 PM
QUOTE
You may believe you are trying to out the "real terrorists", but from where I sit you are aiding and abetting them.
O.K, Arthur..
It´s a two part question...
1) where are you sitting ?
2) who do you mean by "them". You obviously know their identity, as to come to the conclusion that I am somehow "aiding and abetting them"...
1) From my frame of reference, having read extensively on the subject, I am TOTALLY convinced that 19 hijackers, financed and planned by Al Qaeda (particularly Atta and Bin Ladin, Khalid Sheik Mohammed and Ramzi Binalshibh), took control of 4 planes on Sept 11, 2001 and crashed them into the WTC towers, the Pentagon and a field in Penn. The planes were not on remote control, the towers were not brought down by explosives, and Silverstein saying "Pull it", was referring to attempts to put out the fire.
2) See 1 above.
Arthur
Ok then, go back to sleep sheeple, the magic bullet theory is perfect. the Gulf Of Tonkin incident really happened. Poland attacked Germany.
So basically trust government and politions and their ilk as they would never lie or do us harm.
CT s are not real
CT s are not real
Ct s are not real clicking shoes three times
QUOTE (galdur+Dec 20 2005, 09:04 PM)
By conservation of energy, a destructive collapse
of the WTC towers (a gravity driven event) from above
at anywhere at or near free-fall speeds, was impossible.
Otherwise, parachutes wouldn't work.
This should be pretty elementary, especially at a science board.
That doesn't answer the question no matter how many times you say it.
How does the method by which a parachute slows the desent of the load relate to the collapse of a building.
Please be specific.
I understand what the conservation of momentum is and see little relevance to the operation of a parachute so please show the way it relates.
of the WTC towers (a gravity driven event) from above
at anywhere at or near free-fall speeds, was impossible.
Otherwise, parachutes wouldn't work.
This should be pretty elementary, especially at a science board.
That doesn't answer the question no matter how many times you say it.
How does the method by which a parachute slows the desent of the load relate to the collapse of a building.
Please be specific.
I understand what the conservation of momentum is and see little relevance to the operation of a parachute so please show the way it relates.
2.1 The Fictitious Hijackers
http://members.iinet.net.au/~holmgren/truth2.html
Even without any direct documentation, some critical thinking about the story of the hijackings reveals it as an absurdity. In the event of a hijacking, the crew has only to punch in a four digit code accessible from several different places, in order to alert ATC (air traffic control) to a hijacking. No such distress code was received from any of the allegedly hijacked planes. We are expected to believe that hijackers took over a plane by the crude method of threatening the passengers and crew with box cutters, but somehow managed to take control of the plane without the crew first getting a chance to punch in the hijacking code. Not just on one plane - but on all four. This alone is almost impossible. Then we are expected to believe that all four pilots were able to navigate the planes successfully to their targets, in spite of their training being restricted to Cessnas and flight simulators, that with the exception of the plane which was allegedly brought down by the passengers, they were able to exhibit breathtaking piloting skills in being able to hit small targets accurately at high speed, and that none of the hijackers in any of the four groups got cold feet about committing suicide in such a horrible fashion. In a miraculous co-incidence, the ringleader's luggage was somehow left behind at the airport, and was found to contain instructions to the hijackers. This has the credibility of a cartoon script. Nevertheless, there is solid documented proof that no such hijackings took place.
If 19 Arabs hijacked the planes, why are there no Arabic names on any of the passenger lists? If they used non-Arabic aliases, which of the " innocents " on the lists are alleged to be the hijackers?
2.1.1 http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.cen...11.victims.html
Passenger and crew list for AA 11 (allegedly first WTC crash.)
2.1.2 http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.cen...77.victims.html
AA 77 (allegedly Pentagon crash)
2.1.3 http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.cen...75.victims.html
UAL 175 (allegedly 2nd WTC crash)
2.1.4 http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.cen...93.victims.html
UAL 93 (allegedly Pennsylvania crash)
The perplexing puzzle of the published passenger lists. By Gary North. Oct 13 2001.
2.1.5 http://www.rense.com/general15/perplexingpuzzle.htm
2.1.6 STILL No Arabs On Flight 77 By Thomas R. Olmsted, MD. June 23 2003.
http://www.rense.com/general38/77.htm
If they are alleged to have been using non- Arabic aliases (19 obviously Arabic men got on board using non-Arabic ID, with 100% success rate ? ), why did the FBI claim that they were traced through the use of credit cards to buy tickets and rent cars in their own names? By what means were the false IDs traced so quickly to their real IDs ? Why, nearly 3 years later is their no confirmation of which names they are alleged to have actually used?
If 9 of the alleged hijackers were searched before boarding, as claimed in this article
2.1.7 http://www.policetalk.com/9_hijackers.html
why is there no airport security footage of them? Where is the airport security footage of any of the 19 ? Were they invisible? How did they (allegedly) get on board with knives, guns, and electronic guidance systems, while being searched, but somehow avoiding security cameras and not being on the passenger lists?
What aliases are they alleged to have been using when they were searched, and if they were not using aliases, why are they not on the passenger lists?
There are numerous media reports that some of the alleged hijackers are still alive.
(Some of the links from 2.1.8 through 2.1.18 are alternative sources for similar stories)
Hijack "suspects" alive and well. BBC News. Sept 23, 2001
2.1.8 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1559151.stm
7 of 19 FBI identified hijackers located after WTC attacks. by *** Fojut March 4 2002
2.1.9 http://www.rense.com/general20/alives.htm
Hundreds dying as US missiles and bombs hit Afghan villages. Muslim Media October 2001
2.1.10http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/world01/afgwar-die.htm
Still alive? FBI mixed up true identities of perpetrators. by Christopher J. Petherick American Free Press.
2.1.11http://www.americanfreepress.net/10_12_01/STILL_ALIVE__FBI_Mixed_Up_on_T/still_alive__fbi_mixed_up_on_t.html
Seven of the WTC hijackers found alive!
2.1.12 http://propagandamatrix.com/seven_of_the_w...ound_alive.html
Tracking the 19 hijackers. What are they up to now? At least 9 of them survived 9/11.
2.1.13 http://www.welfarestate.com/911/
Six men identified by FBI as dead hijackers are still alive. By Syed Adeeb.
2.1.14 http://truedemocracy.net/td4/24s-c-6men.html
Banks enlisted in trailing terrorists. Albuquerque Tribune
2.1.15 http://www.abqtrib.com/archives/news01/092...ews_trail.shtml
Revealed: The men with stolen identities. UK Telegraph news. By David Harrison. Sept 23 2001.
2.1.16 http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai.../23/widen23.xml
Alleged hijackers alive and well. World messenger
2.1.17 http://www.worldmessenger.20m.com/alive.html
Doubts emerge over indentities of hijackers in US attacks. Islam online Sept 20. 2001.
2.1.18 http://www.islam-online.net/English/News/2...article12.shtml
In spite of all this, the same 19 names and faces of the alleged hijackers have been consistently pushed through the mainstream media ever since the FBI first "identified" them.
According to this article
FBI Agent: Hijackers probably used gas. by Adam Tanner.
2.1.19 http://newsmine.org/archive/9-11/911-gas-theory.txt
the FBI now claims that the hijackers used gas to subdue the passengers and crew. If they used gas they would have been affected themselves - unless they had masks. The story gets better all the time. They somehow got on board with masks, gas, guns, knives and electronic guidance systems, in spite of being searched, didn't show up on the airport security cameras, and were not on the passenger lists. They left flight manuals in Arabic in rented cars outside the airport ( last minute brushing up on the way there, about how to fly the things! ) and then exhibited breath taking displays of skilled piloting. Just to make sure we knew who they were, their passports were conveniently found in spite of fiery crashes which incinerated the planes and occupants. So they got on board with false IDs but used their real passports ?
If the hijackers of AA 11 went on a 25 minute killing and threatening spree before gaining control of the cockpit, then why was no distress code sent from the plane? Why had the plane already turned off course before the hijackers got into the cockpit?
2.1.20 9/11 Redux: (The Observer¹s Cut) American Airlines Flight 11, Re-examined By David L. Graham
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/redux.html
2.1.21 Media Published fake passenger lists for American Airlines flight 11. By Gerard Holmgren. May 16, 2004
http://www.911closeup.com/index.shtml?ID=65
If the mythical Arab hijackers really were on the planes and airport security systems failed due to incompetence ( not once but 19 times! ), where is the major inquiry? I have seen bigger inquiries into racehorse doping scandals.
The question arises " then who were the suicide pilots ? " Nobody - because we will now demonstrate that the objects which hit the Pentagon and the WTC were not passenger jets.
http://members.iinet.net.au/~holmgren/truth2.html
Even without any direct documentation, some critical thinking about the story of the hijackings reveals it as an absurdity. In the event of a hijacking, the crew has only to punch in a four digit code accessible from several different places, in order to alert ATC (air traffic control) to a hijacking. No such distress code was received from any of the allegedly hijacked planes. We are expected to believe that hijackers took over a plane by the crude method of threatening the passengers and crew with box cutters, but somehow managed to take control of the plane without the crew first getting a chance to punch in the hijacking code. Not just on one plane - but on all four. This alone is almost impossible. Then we are expected to believe that all four pilots were able to navigate the planes successfully to their targets, in spite of their training being restricted to Cessnas and flight simulators, that with the exception of the plane which was allegedly brought down by the passengers, they were able to exhibit breathtaking piloting skills in being able to hit small targets accurately at high speed, and that none of the hijackers in any of the four groups got cold feet about committing suicide in such a horrible fashion. In a miraculous co-incidence, the ringleader's luggage was somehow left behind at the airport, and was found to contain instructions to the hijackers. This has the credibility of a cartoon script. Nevertheless, there is solid documented proof that no such hijackings took place.
If 19 Arabs hijacked the planes, why are there no Arabic names on any of the passenger lists? If they used non-Arabic aliases, which of the " innocents " on the lists are alleged to be the hijackers?
2.1.1 http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.cen...11.victims.html
Passenger and crew list for AA 11 (allegedly first WTC crash.)
2.1.2 http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.cen...77.victims.html
AA 77 (allegedly Pentagon crash)
2.1.3 http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.cen...75.victims.html
UAL 175 (allegedly 2nd WTC crash)
2.1.4 http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.cen...93.victims.html
UAL 93 (allegedly Pennsylvania crash)
The perplexing puzzle of the published passenger lists. By Gary North. Oct 13 2001.
2.1.5 http://www.rense.com/general15/perplexingpuzzle.htm
2.1.6 STILL No Arabs On Flight 77 By Thomas R. Olmsted, MD. June 23 2003.
http://www.rense.com/general38/77.htm
If they are alleged to have been using non- Arabic aliases (19 obviously Arabic men got on board using non-Arabic ID, with 100% success rate ? ), why did the FBI claim that they were traced through the use of credit cards to buy tickets and rent cars in their own names? By what means were the false IDs traced so quickly to their real IDs ? Why, nearly 3 years later is their no confirmation of which names they are alleged to have actually used?
If 9 of the alleged hijackers were searched before boarding, as claimed in this article
2.1.7 http://www.policetalk.com/9_hijackers.html
why is there no airport security footage of them? Where is the airport security footage of any of the 19 ? Were they invisible? How did they (allegedly) get on board with knives, guns, and electronic guidance systems, while being searched, but somehow avoiding security cameras and not being on the passenger lists?
What aliases are they alleged to have been using when they were searched, and if they were not using aliases, why are they not on the passenger lists?
There are numerous media reports that some of the alleged hijackers are still alive.
(Some of the links from 2.1.8 through 2.1.18 are alternative sources for similar stories)
Hijack "suspects" alive and well. BBC News. Sept 23, 2001
2.1.8 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1559151.stm
7 of 19 FBI identified hijackers located after WTC attacks. by *** Fojut March 4 2002
2.1.9 http://www.rense.com/general20/alives.htm
Hundreds dying as US missiles and bombs hit Afghan villages. Muslim Media October 2001
2.1.10http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/world01/afgwar-die.htm
Still alive? FBI mixed up true identities of perpetrators. by Christopher J. Petherick American Free Press.
2.1.11http://www.americanfreepress.net/10_12_01/STILL_ALIVE__FBI_Mixed_Up_on_T/still_alive__fbi_mixed_up_on_t.html
Seven of the WTC hijackers found alive!
2.1.12 http://propagandamatrix.com/seven_of_the_w...ound_alive.html
Tracking the 19 hijackers. What are they up to now? At least 9 of them survived 9/11.
2.1.13 http://www.welfarestate.com/911/
Six men identified by FBI as dead hijackers are still alive. By Syed Adeeb.
2.1.14 http://truedemocracy.net/td4/24s-c-6men.html
Banks enlisted in trailing terrorists. Albuquerque Tribune
2.1.15 http://www.abqtrib.com/archives/news01/092...ews_trail.shtml
Revealed: The men with stolen identities. UK Telegraph news. By David Harrison. Sept 23 2001.
2.1.16 http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai.../23/widen23.xml
Alleged hijackers alive and well. World messenger
2.1.17 http://www.worldmessenger.20m.com/alive.html
Doubts emerge over indentities of hijackers in US attacks. Islam online Sept 20. 2001.
2.1.18 http://www.islam-online.net/English/News/2...article12.shtml
In spite of all this, the same 19 names and faces of the alleged hijackers have been consistently pushed through the mainstream media ever since the FBI first "identified" them.
According to this article
FBI Agent: Hijackers probably used gas. by Adam Tanner.
2.1.19 http://newsmine.org/archive/9-11/911-gas-theory.txt
the FBI now claims that the hijackers used gas to subdue the passengers and crew. If they used gas they would have been affected themselves - unless they had masks. The story gets better all the time. They somehow got on board with masks, gas, guns, knives and electronic guidance systems, in spite of being searched, didn't show up on the airport security cameras, and were not on the passenger lists. They left flight manuals in Arabic in rented cars outside the airport ( last minute brushing up on the way there, about how to fly the things! ) and then exhibited breath taking displays of skilled piloting. Just to make sure we knew who they were, their passports were conveniently found in spite of fiery crashes which incinerated the planes and occupants. So they got on board with false IDs but used their real passports ?
If the hijackers of AA 11 went on a 25 minute killing and threatening spree before gaining control of the cockpit, then why was no distress code sent from the plane? Why had the plane already turned off course before the hijackers got into the cockpit?
2.1.20 9/11 Redux: (The Observer¹s Cut) American Airlines Flight 11, Re-examined By David L. Graham
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/redux.html
2.1.21 Media Published fake passenger lists for American Airlines flight 11. By Gerard Holmgren. May 16, 2004
http://www.911closeup.com/index.shtml?ID=65
If the mythical Arab hijackers really were on the planes and airport security systems failed due to incompetence ( not once but 19 times! ), where is the major inquiry? I have seen bigger inquiries into racehorse doping scandals.
The question arises " then who were the suicide pilots ? " Nobody - because we will now demonstrate that the objects which hit the Pentagon and the WTC were not passenger jets.
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