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Barbara Olson
Interesting post from the moderator of a forum at Implosion World:

"We'll stick to the principles of building failures and explosives and demolition. We'll address the impossibilities and the contradictions. And most important, we'll stick with the facts.

It'll be fun. And if Silverstein doesn't like our article and tells us to "pull it", we'll tell him to pound sand. So watch this space and we'll let you know when posted.

Have a nice holiday everybody--"


It would appear that the people that do for a living what some imagine happened on 9/11 don't think too much of the 9/11 "truth" movement.

But what the heck do they know?
Foxx
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 18 2005, 10:37 PM)
QUOTE (Foxx+)
Ahhhh yes.... I was wondering when you were going to find that. Thanks for bringing it up. Now, why don't you tell us how those jet-fuel fumes got there?


Easy, not ALL the kerosene would have burned, and then residual burning kerosene liquid, smells like, well Kerosene.

You think I have to dance, this does away with the idea there were high explosives set off in the basement.

Arthur

Pfffffffftttttt....

Heh

Ehhh, buddy if you think your nonsense has been purchased hook line and sinker, by anyone other than Schneibster & other apologists, I beg to differ.

I have yet to see you refute anything here.

However, if you feel you have accomplished your job, just go back to the office and tell them your finished and you're going home. biggrin.gif

The simple statement that..."not ALL the kerosene would have burned" just doesn't wash for me. Sorry, I'm not in the habit of buying bridges from 'strangers' - and you are getting 'stranger' by the day. tongue.gif

If it has been 'atomized' in the particular narrow range that you apologists suggest, then it would have ALL been incinerated in this magical 'thermobarbic bomb' you guys have been trying to sell.

Are you now changing your story... "it wasn't really a thermobarbic fuel-air explosion... it was ahhh.. er... only a 'partial' thermobarbic fuel-air explosion... only part of the fumes exploded, leaving some of the fumes NOT consumed in this all-consuming fuel-air explosion."

What a crock !

Where's the reference source that says... in a thermobarbic explosion only a certain percentage of the atomized fuel is ignited leaving some 'left over'. Not to mention that I haven't bought this thermobarbic nonsense you're promoting in the first place.

If it 'works' for you, feel satisfied, and go back to the office with a smile on your face and a clear concience; but you sure haven't provided any 'proof' to support this contention at all (as far as I am concerned).

I've been busy again today so I'll have to go back to your other nonsensical sophistry regarding Pecoraros statements.

Besides, you seem to have forgotten the infallible definition provided by pope Schneibster which refutes your increasingly circular arguements.

Slippery as eels these shills... you just can't pin them down to stick with one view long enough to refute that view.


Sing-maltida
Hi Everybody,

Yawn. Yawn. Yawn.
This is also recycled garbage.
Conspiracy Theory???
Don't give Bush too much credit.
He was not visiting the kindergarden when this WTC collapse happened.
He was attending it as a pre-schooler.
If we continue this thread, I fear that it is not the collapse of WTC, but the forum itself may collapse from an overload of garbage. (Forum administrator do check your system capacity. To save this forum you may need to quarantine further posting on this thread).
Anyway, I can't stop those die-hards from perpetuating this thread just for the sake of a Guinese Book Record.

Goodluck and goodbye.



yesitdid
QUOTE (metamars+Dec 17 2005, 10:33 PM)
QUOTE
Heller is discredited not because he is not an architect, he is discredited for passing himself off as one, for aligning himself with Hufschmid and for erroneous calculations.


How did you came to the conclusion that Heller is passing himself off as an architect? The Garlic and Grass article says, on the bottom,

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Heller is discredited not because he is not an architect, he is discredited for passing himself off as one, for aligning himself with Hufschmid and for erroneous calculations.


How did you came to the conclusion that Heller is passing himself off as an architect? The Garlic and Grass article says, on the bottom,

Dave Heller, who has degrees in physics and architecture, is a builder and engaged citizen in Berkeley, California.


Thus, he is claiming to be a builder, not an architect (or a physicist, for that matter.). So, no doubt, you are referring to some other wep page where Heller makes the claim of being an architect. What is the URL of that page?



QUOTE


If you wish to give him as much weight as any poster here, fine, but as an expert he is discredited.



Unfair, unless he really does claim to be an architect or a physicist. If you merely said that, despite a relevant background, he is not an expert, I would have no quarrel with you. Perhaps you want to blame him for claims that other people made for him? That is also grossly unfair, not to mention dishonest.

Please clarify.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE


If you wish to give him as much weight as any poster here, fine, but as an expert he is discredited.



Unfair, unless he really does claim to be an architect or a physicist. If you merely said that, despite a relevant background, he is not an expert, I would have no quarrel with you. Perhaps you want to blame him for claims that other people made for him? That is also grossly unfair, not to mention dishonest.

Please clarify.


Bazant's credentials are however intact , his books on aspects of engineering are accepted by the community. You say that the dynamic elastic analysis is useless but you do not have the qualifications to make that claim nor do you quote anyone who does have them as saying so.


I have derived a contradiction based on BZ, and furthermore I see no real justification for his analysis in WTC, to determine the sorts of things that they are claiming. That doesn't mean that elastic dynamic analysis is not useful, at all, in engineering. JayUtah at apollohoax.net has indicated, unambiguously, that it is of use in studying structural failure in metal, in some circumstances such as in the fluttering of an airplane wing.

However, when I put the question, on that forum, about the proper use of this analysis, and ask specifically whether or not it is useful in the sense of first order effects, etc., I did not get an answer, from JayUtah or anybody else.

For the non-techies that visit this board, the consideration of proper domain for various equations and theories is no trivial matter. E.g., there's not a single particle physicist in the world who doesn't "believe" in special relativity and, furthermore, doesn't use it (at least implicitly) day in and day out in their work. However, there's also not a single particle physicist in the world who believes that special relativity will hold up when dealing with spacetime scales of Planck length. (Otherwise, the string theorists are wasting their time tongue.gif )

That fact that Steven Weinberg has a Nobel Prize in Physics and has published reputably doesn't mean that, if he's foolish enough to claim that special relativity works just fine a Planck-length scales, anybody will take him seriously.

Perhaps you have sincerely conflated these two ideas:
1) elastic dynamic analysis is useless ("in general" is implicit)
2) elastic dynamic analysis is useless for explaining the WTC collapse

I have now clearly (I hope) explained to you the difference. Just to dot my i's and cross my t's:

1) implies that there is no domain, at all, where elastic dynamic analysis is useful

I have never said that. As I have clearly stated that I don't understand it, 100%, it would be an unlikely claim to make, don't you think?

2) implies that elastic dynamic analysis is being misapplied, in a way that makes it's conclusion quite useless in the BZ WTC paper.

I have indeed stated my belief that I believe BZ is useless for reaching the conclusions they did re WTC. I don't recall whether or not I was careful, in each and every instance, of making the "for reaching the conclusions they did re WTC" explicit, when it wasn't clear from the context, but this is certainly my meaning, as it must be, since I have also clearly stated that I don't understand it 100%.

Since you have such great confidence in BZ, please answer this very basic questions, and provide a references:

Does elastic dynamic analyis [b]even reasonably tell us about first order effect in a WTC scenario, and where is the proof of that, in terms of computer simulations on simpler, but analogous systems? * [/B]

In other words, for what domain (= initial conditions + boudary conditions + etc.) is this useful, in what ways is it useful, and how do these considerations of proper domain relate to the specifics of the WTC towers?


FWIW, I suspect that BZ is useful for small perturbations in stiff metals such as in the WTC, before significant compression and flexing perturbations that would at all resemble what could reasonably have occured, and before fracutring. I believe it is also useful for less stiff metals, undergoing periodic motions, such as a fluttering airplane wing.

* proof on physical systems would also be of interest, though that seem unlikely in today's world of cheap and powerful computing.

Ok, then it is simply YOU who is discredited for listing Heller as an architect when, had you been following the thread(and I know you were) at AH you would know this.
If Heller is posting his "degree" in architecture in the hopes that his "degree" in some way will be a boost to his qualifications then he is discredited since it cannot be shown that said degree is any more useful in this regard than a diploma in mixology.

He says he is a builder but he cannot sign off on any construction in the function of an engineer or architect so what is he then? A general contractor?

In contradiction to your willingness to accept Heller as an expert you reject Bazant, who DOES indeed have credentials in the field of interest here. You dismiss his analysis with absolutely no justification(other than your desire to do so).
I do not fully understand the method BZ use either but I will rely on their expertise AND the fact that they printed their analysis in an engineering journal and so far as I can find no one in the engineering community has questioned the validity of it.

AH is populated by engineers for sure but mostly aviation and aerospace engineers. You attach significance to not having this analysis fully explained to you at AH. JU explained to you what use it is in the field he is most familiar with and has stated that he can understand that it would also apply in a larger system such as the WTC towers. If a cutting edge analysis is not fully understood, in the context of the towers, by them why would you require that they explain it to you as it applies to the towers? Find a materials or structural engineering forum and ask there.

When I said that you find dynamic analysis "useless" I thought that it was a given that I was referring to this instance, and not ascribing an opinion of global uselessness. I did not conflate the two views you post, you mistook my not stating, "in this instance" as a global statement. A failing of mine to take into account the limits of a written discussion board. Sorry for the mix-up.

Heller has no relevant architectural background and his analysis of the physics is so flawed as to be useless. A degree in physics is relevant to a point. It becomes more relevant if the person also has more direct qualifications such as in engineering or architecture. Heller lacks that. Is this more clear?
yesitdid
QUOTE (know when+Dec 17 2005, 10:56 PM)
QUOTE (yesitdid+Dec 17 2005, 09:54 PM)
QUOTE (Guest+Dec 17 2005, 06:10 PM)


Which part would a court deem admissable?




Both, people are allowed to have both an immediate reaction and sober second thought after more information has been learned.

By your own measure then zoctoberfest, Foxx should not be believed as he now states he believes?

well we don't know if foxx had his whole family threatened by the secret service, however, it logically follows that anyone speaking against the one-eyed pyramid can practically have their whole family erased from history.
there is also a big difference between reinterpreting an event based on propoganda and personal memory, and reinterpreting an event based on empirical research.

so, anyway, eyewitness testimony is most valuable closest to the event. the mind has a tendency to rationalise information into know lexicons, ie. belief systems, over time.
now, being a fireman, i assume his perception is quite accute when he is actually involved in a life and death battle with his lifetime nemesis, ie. fire and it's effects.

this fireman wasn't even necessarrily threatened. he could just have been hypnotised like the rest of society. his new belief system would mould his perception of what he saw.

he used the most efficient language at the time to describe what he was seeing. he's stuttering, fer chrissakes. his is not filtering what he says, but rather, looking for the most appropriate words to describe(unwrite? haha) what he has seen.

what WOULD a court deem admissable? lol. apparently nothing. i don't see any 911 court cases going anywhere except the dismissal bin.

What a load of manure!

it logically follows that anyone speaking against the one-eyed pyramid can practically have their whole family erased from history.


Only if one is operating on the asumption that big bad brother is always looking to stomp down on anyone. While I know that just because one is paranoid it does not mean that no one is out to get you, it will colour one's world view. much of your post simply illustrates this.

In some cases, yes eyewitness testimony is best in close time proximity to the event. In others it is simply going to be a visceral reaction that you will get.

When I worked at an airport I, and another tech were walking along the end of a runway with aircraft taxiing across that runway enroute to another one. We heard an extremely loud bang and both of us ducked almost to the ground. We both had thought that an engine or a tire had blown on one of the nearby aircraft. It was a sonic boom from a military aircraft that had just left the adjacent base to participate in NORAD exercises(pilot got in trouble for going supersonic over a populated area).

Years before that at my first job I was pumping gas and there was a lound bang and brilliant flash. I froze and thought that the gas pump had exploded behind me. It was a lightning bolt that hit a rooftop drain on the office building across the street(one of the other gas jockeys saw it hit).

In BOTH cases I and others attributed the loud noise to an explosion and in neither case was it such. Our minds had rationalised the information into know lexicons, ie. belief systems right then and there and only in hindsight could we see our mistake.

If you have ever been in stopped in traffic with your foot on the brake and suddenly thought you were moving in reverse only to then see that the cars on both sides were moving forward but you are still motionless, you have done this.

If you have ever been in a new city and suddenly thought you saw a family member or friend walking towards you, you have done this.

If you have ever recognized a cloud as looking like some familiar object you have done this, and in this case there is NO adrenaline in your system forcing you to make snap decisions.

Firefighters are no more immune to this than anyone else. In fact they may well be more susceptible to reacting to sharp loud noises as if it is an explosion than the general public. Reacting in such a way would increase chances of survival in that occupation rather than looking about to immediatly analyze the true cause and origin of that noise. In the case of the sonic boom I mention above the airport fire fighters did not wait for an order they were in their trucks and out the doors first and waiting for instructions on where the explosion was.

Or, of course the world just might actually be a loaded gun that is pointed at you.
yesitdid
QUOTE (Foxx+Dec 18 2005, 12:58 AM)
QUOTE
Originally posted by Foxx
As far as the 50 ton press, I am well aware that it did not weigh 50 tons - it was simply a 50 ton hydraulic press. So what? Whether it weighed 2 tons or 5 tons a jet-fuel fireball (which is NOT a thermobaric weapon) is not going to 'move it about'. Pecararo said it was 'gone'. where did it go? Don't tell me, I know... the thermobaric bomb melted it, Right? Maybe that's where the molten metal in the basement came from.


As an attempt to respond to the above a government apologist posts the following...

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Originally posted by Foxx
As far as the 50 ton press, I am well aware that it did not weigh 50 tons - it was simply a 50 ton hydraulic press. So what? Whether it weighed 2 tons or 5 tons a jet-fuel fireball (which is NOT a thermobaric weapon) is not going to 'move it about'. Pecararo said it was 'gone'. where did it go? Don't tell me, I know... the thermobaric bomb melted it, Right? Maybe that's where the molten metal in the basement came from.


As an attempt to respond to the above a government apologist posts the following...

2 Tons or 5 tons?????

,,,,,,,,,,

I'd say 300 lbs, 400 tops for a deluxe model with multi-speed ram.

Technical Stats
• OAL: 74H x 50W x 31-1/2D
• Range: 0 - 28-3/4 in
Size: 50 Ton


I can't count the times I've seen this same picture posted by official story supporters as an attempt to 'discredit' the implications of Pecararo's statement.... >shakes head<

In my view, posting of pictures like above are obvious obfuscations in an attempt to muddy the waters, and avoid true un-biased discussion of Pecararo's testimony...

QUOTE
At about 6:45 he went to the mechanical shop in the second subbasement...the room they were working in began to fill with a white smoke {?}...When the two arrived at the C level, they found the machine shop gone...

“There was nothing there but rubble, “Mike said. “We’re talking about a 50 ton hydraulic press - gone!”


Let's face some honest FACTS here.

Based upon Pecararo's statement, none of us can provide 'evidence' of what model of '50 ton press', Pecararo referred to, that was actually used in the WTC machine shop... can we?

Does anyone have a receipt... or information on what model 50 ton press was installed in the machine shop at WTC?

I work around an industrial environment; during the course of business, visit various machine shops, and am familiar with commercial tools.

It is quite obvious to me that those who post pictures of a '50 ton press' (like above), have absolutely no experience of getting their 'hands dirty' in a real industrial shop, and probably have never even visited one.

The above '50 ton press' is a 'home workshop' model (probably imported from Taiwan).

Sure, It will perform a 50 ton press duty for 'home-shop' applications.


Now let's have a look at some REAL commercial industrial use hydraulic presses such as one might find in a proper 'machine shop'.

Here's a '6-ton' commercial hydraulic press...

............
Here's a ' 35 ton' commercial hydraulic press...

............................
Here's a ' 45 ton' commercial hydraulic press...

.............
And here's a ' 50 ton' commercial hydraulic press...



While I think none of us can provide actual 'proof' (that I have seen so far) of the exact model of 50 ton press that was employed in the WTC machine shop... I'm a little sceptical(sic) that they went out and bought a hydraulic press for their machine shops from 'Canadian Tire' or 'Home Depot' to service the WTC needs.

Anyone else believe that?

The above 'home-workshop' model posted by adoucette clearly shows either...

* his propensity to obfuscating bias... or

* his ignorance of real industrial machinery.

It should also be noted that while posting pictures of home-workshop ' 50 ton presses', the official conspiracy theorists always seem to avoid the main point...

EVEN IF (although highly unlikely) that a home-workshop model was used in the WTC machine shop...

What happened to it? Where did it go? Pecararo said it was 'GONE'. Did the muslims steal it?

They never want to get into too deep of a rational discussion of what may have realistically happened to it.

Just post a nonsense photo (in an attempt to discredit Pecararo's statement)... and move on to the next obfuscation.

Any reasonable person will recognize the games these people play to prop-up the long-since discredited 'official fairy tale'.

I am NOT saying that the pictures above of commercial 50 ton presses are 'proof' that the press in the WTC machine shop WAS one of these commericial(sic) types, but it certainly is much more likely that it was more similar to these models, than the home-shop ' 50-ton press' like the one at the top of this post.

BWAHAHA...
You complain about Adouctte 'obfuscating" things then go on to do exactly the same thing.

No, I pretty sure they didn't pick up a press at Canadian Tire since I would be surprised that there is one anywhere in New York State. tongue.gif

As you point out none of us knows what style of press they had in their shop. I doubt they required the use of one all that often so I would doubt they would require a heavy duty commercial grade press. This is after all a building maintenance shop, not a shipyard.

Did a thermobaric bomb melt it? Did the Muslims steal it? No, Foxx, you would have us believe that a surreptitiously planted high explosive blew it to pieces as a side coincidence of those explosives being used to sever the central columns in the basement levels 1 hour before the collapse, which is about as likely as a thermobaric bomb melting it..

Gee, you think that by"gone" he might have meant, "it wasn't where is was before"?

You then PUT words into Pecarro's mouth just like you did with Boyle.
He said "gone" but meant "shattered", he said "walls" but meant "concrete walls". If there were such quantities of high explosives in the basement such as would shatter a steel hydralic press and shatter interior concrete walls, high explosives designed primarily to sever or weaken the core columns, then it is quite the wonder that the building did not topple immediately or at the very least suffer the same damage as seen by the first WTC bombing in which the parking garage floors were broken. Odd also that sucha high explosive did not fill both towers with smoke(oh no, you already answered that question didn't you? please refresh my memory as to why both tower lobbies did not fill with smoke.)
Foxx
QUOTE
Originally posted by YID
Heller has no relevant architectural background and his analysis of the physics is so flawed as to be useless.


But according to YOU... you are 'More Qualified' to make assertions in this field, although you are a 'cable TV guy' ?

I wonder whether you, and all your other 'official story supporters' (who seem to work in 'offices') have ever actually built so much as a birdhouse in your life.

I asked that same question of 'pope Jay Utah', and he also skirted the question.

You 'pope-ishly' claim you have relevant knowledge (or understanding of structural engineering design principles), yet work in unrelated fields.

Still, you seem to have no problem 'brushing off' persons such as myself and Heller, who work 'hands-on' in these fields on a daily basis.

Have you ever had to interpret architectural blueprints of any kind, little office worker?

Have you ever designed a structure (of any kind) in your life?

Have you ever built so much as a 'birdhouse'?

No ? I thought so.

Yet you feel 'qualified' to attack persons like Heller (& I) who work daily in related fields.

It seems the only 'talent & experience' you bring to this table is your (somewhat questionable) semantics & sophistry 'talents'.

Have you ever designed a structural 'anything' in your life?

What do you bring to these discussions, apart from sophistry?... and the typical 'Saint' J.Edgar Hoover tactic of 'attack the messenger' ?


yesitdid
QUOTE (Foxx+Dec 19 2005, 05:15 AM)
QUOTE
Originally posted by YID
Heller has no relevant architectural background and his analysis of the physics is so flawed as to be useless.


But according to YOU... you are 'More Qualified' to make assertions in this field, although you are a 'cable TV guy' ?

I wonder whether you, and all your other 'official story supporters' (who seem to work in 'offices') have ever actually built so much as a birdhouse in your life.

I asked that same question of 'pope Jay Utah', and he also skirted the question.

You 'pope-ishly' claim you have relevant knowledge (or understanding of structural engineering design principles), yet work in unrelated fields.

Still, you seem to have no problem 'brushing off' persons such as myself and Heller, who work 'hands-on' in these fields on a daily basis.

Have you ever had to interpret architectural blueprints of any kind, little office worker?

Have you ever designed a structure (of any kind) in your life?

Have you ever built so much as a 'birdhouse'?

No ? I thought so.

Yet you feel 'qualified' to attack persons like Heller (& I) who work daily in related fields.

It seems the only 'talent & experience' you bring to this table is your (somewhat questionable) semantics & sophistry 'talents'.

Have you ever designed a structural 'anything' in your life?

What do you bring to these discussions, apart from sophistry?... and the typical 'Saint' J.Edgar Hoover tactic of 'attack the messenger' ?

No ? I thought so.

Again with putting words into other's mouths. Your hands in my mouth leave a bad taste Foxx..

Actually Foxx I have designed two of our remote buildings. We hired a contractor to put up the shell(because we did not have the time to do it ourselves) and an electrician to wire it (because as a commercial building we needed it to be done by a certified electrician, the electrical inspector will not take as long to inspect the job if he knows a certified electrician did it) and three of us did the interior, installed the equipment racks, air conditioning, LNB spiltter array, combiner, fiber optic cabling and laser transmitters and receivers, not to mention the drywalling and the doors.

Did I mention that I owned and operated a hardware store at one time? I believe I did. I am NOT an office jockey and neither is our line supervisor nor our head lines maintenace tech.

It isn't the TransAmerica building but it beats the hell out of a birdhouse.

Yes , I have had to interpret architectural blueprints on more than one occaision Foxx. We cable offices and hotels, I am familiar with blueprints(a misnomer since they are rarely blue anymore)

Now as for Heller the problems with his analysis have been pointed out. Perhaps you'd like to adress them rather than just tell me that I am not qualified to question it. Metamars on the other hand will not actually state what it is that leads him to state that BZ is useless in this application. Heller cannot demonstrate that he has relevant qualifications while Bazant can.
Bazant is in , Heller is out, QED!
Foxx
QUOTE
Originally posted by YID
Gee, you think that by"gone" he might have meant, "it wasn't where is was before"?


Sophistry again. Don't put words in MY MOUTH, YID.

Let's hear your analysis... (interpretation)... of what Pecoraro 'meant' when he used the hyperbole 'GONE'?

I feel quite certain that 'magical muslims' did not survive the impact... (calmy walking out of the wreckage to join other evacuees so they could turn up ALIVE in other parts of the world) and stole the 50 ton press from the WTC machine shop on their way out.

What is your view regarding what Pecoraro meant when he said it was "gone".

It seems obvious to me, if you read ALL of Pecoraros 'testimony' he was partial to hyperbole of the moment.

I don't think any of us believes that this press just 'disappeared' into thin air. It wasn't 'GONE'.

It just wasn't there in the same configuration that it had previously been.

As he said the whole machine shop had 'turned to rubble'

Did it just 'fall over' in this magical thermobarbic blast?

Arthur a says... 'he couldn't see anything'?...

IIRC the 'white smoke' was above his eye-level, so (as far as I can realistically determine from his testimony), even IF the 'Home-Depot' press had just fallen over... it would be below the 'smoke-level'... and he would have been able to determine/see 'that'... Right?

No one seems to be 'picking-up' on the part of his testimony that the lingering smoke was WHITE.

Do we have any reference sources which say that "after a fuel-air explosion, the leftover smoke is WHITE?




new tone
QUOTE (yesitdid+Dec 19 2005, 04:50 AM)
[QUOTE=yesitdid,Dec 17 2005, 09:54 PM]
In the case of the sonic boom I mention above the airport fire fighters did not wait for an order they were in their trucks and out the doors first and waiting for instructions on where the explosion was.

Or, of course the world just might actually be a loaded gun that is pointed at you.[quote]


i can't think of a more highly reported single event in history. live in real time, tesimony in blogs, phone recordings, videos, radio broadcasts, emergency radio recordings, live television......

there are distinct differences in the sounds of a crash of concrete and steel, and the sound of an explosion. everything has a unique sound. steel creeks and moans, or in more violent situations, clangs and dings. the majority of the concrete was lightweight and only four inches thick. it would sound like rocks crashing together and breaking. very thin rocks. like dropping big dinner plates.

i've heard what crashing steel sounds like. there's a lot of clanging.
and i've heard a tray of dishes crash onto the floor.

ever heard a little drum and a big drum? or a little cowbell and a big cowbell? only the pitch and time envelopes change, for the most part, the CHARACTER of the sound remains the same.

sounds more like explosions to me then it sounds like giant smashing plates and bells. i also don't hear any regular rythm indicating the smashing of each floor.

you know, you're like the second guy in two days to tell me i might be right, and there IS a gun pointed at my head.

i've known that for four yrs., now. it was kinda scary at first, but i've learned to accept the inevitability of death. it's how you live that counts.
smoke 'em out, FDR
QUOTE (Foxx+Dec 19 2005, 06:09 AM)

Do we have any reference sources which say that "after a fuel-air explosion, the leftover smoke is WHITE?


thermite reactions leave white smoke.

hey, barbara olson, i thought you dead?
Foxx
QUOTE
Originally posted by YID
You then PUT words into Pecarro's mouth just like you did with Boyle.
He said "gone" but meant "shattered", he said "walls" but meant "concrete walls". If there were such quantities of high explosives in the basement such as would shatter a steel hydralic press and shatter interior concrete walls, high explosives designed primarily to sever or weaken the core columns, then it is quite the wonder that the building did not topple immediately or at the very least suffer the same damage as seen by the first WTC bombing in which the parking garage floors were broken. Odd also that sucha high explosive did not fill both towers with smoke(oh no, you already answered that question didn't you? please refresh my memory as to why both tower lobbies did not fill with smoke.)

Heh... Pecoraro referred to the parkling garage 'walls' (which were steel re-inforced concrete} as being 'gone' (or turned to rubble). Yes? or NO?

It is not a 'wonder' that explosions in the basement levels would not IMMEDIATLY lead to 'Global Collapse'.

Did this occur in the bombing of '93 ?

NO ...

(so you don't know what you are talking about structurally).

WHY DIDN'T The towers succumb to Total Global Disproportionate Progressive Collapse in '93 ?

Hey... the 'terrorists' took out some major structural elements in '93... Why didn't the towers 'collapse' then???

User posted image

http://www.hpac.com/microsites/hsb/brocine...erf_9402.htm#f1



Guest
QUOTE (Sing-maltida+Dec 19 2005, 03:40 AM)

If we continue this thread, I fear that it is not the collapse of WTC, but the forum itself may collapse from an overload of garbage. (Forum administrator do check your system capacity. To save this forum you may need to quarantine further posting on this thread).

Goodluck and goodbye.

what a bizarre post.

is that a threat or something? why would you stop a discussion on a discussion board?

there are all kinds of new angles emerging from this discussion, as far as i can tell. it is not all rehashed.

if freefall in a vacuum is 9.22 seconds for the towers, might we remember that they didn't fall in a vacuum? one acre of floor space is a lot of area for air to buck up against. never mind the welds and bolts, air alone would slow the collapse of the buildings, much the same as it slows the fall of anything that has surface area.

and, with that in mind, why didn't these towers fall down a long time ago? there was nothing but air holding them up, apparently.
Foxx
Sing Matilda...

Dance 'Arthur' & 'YID' biggrin.gif





frater plecticus
ABSTRACT

SEPTEMBER 11 AS “MACHIAVELLIAN STATE TERROR”

David MacGregor

(macgregor12b@.mac.com)

This article will appear in--

*The Hidden History of 9-11-2001, Research in Political Economy*,
Volume 23, P. Zarembka, editor, Amsterdam: Elsevier, forthcoming in
Spring 2006.

[QUOTE]
Pyrotechnic effects and spectacular death belong to the symbolism of terror and political assassination—bizarre techniques of miscommunication through fear practiced on the innocent and designed to effect social change. While focusing on the use of terror in 9-11, this article deals with both terror and political assassination as closely related communicative practices of death. It outlines a theory of terrorism that suggests September 11 may be an example of expedient terrorist destruction ordered from within the state, a macabre instance of a state protection racket. Commentators on the left tend to see terrorism as a blow extended by the oppressed against exploiters. However, terrorism is much less likely to be a manifestation of a revolt by—or on behalf of—the underprivileged than a demonstration of brute force by the state or its agents. Machiavellian state terrorism is terror/assassination performed for reasons different from the publicized ones; often initiated by persons or groups other than those suspected of the act; and—most important—secretly perpetrated by, or on behalf, of the violated state itself. Machiavellian state terror advances the ruling agenda while disguising itself as the work of individuals or groups opposed to the state’s fundamental principles. As an example, the article reviews a mysterious 1971 assassination in Paris that obliquely foreshadows some critical elements of the official story of 9-11. The article underlines the importance of oppositional theorizing: questioning government and looking for connections between events are critical features of what it means to be vitally active in the political universe.
SEPTEMBER 11 AS “MACHIAVELLIAN STATE TERROR”

David MacGregor

ELEVENTH DRAFT: DO NOT CITE THIS PAPER WITHOUT PERMISSION

It is even probable that the terrorists (like the experts!) did not anticipate the collapse of the Twin Towers, which was, far more than (the attack of) the Pentagon, the deepest symbolic shock. The symbolic collapse of a whole system is due to an unforeseen complicity, as if, by collapsing (themselves), by suiciding, the towers had entered the game to complete the event.
Jean Baudrillard

[A] wise prince must, whenever he has the occasion, foster with cunning some hostility so that in stamping it out his greatness will increase as a result.
Machiavelli

But you act like America wouldn't destroy two buildings
In a country that was sponsoring bombs dropped on our children
I was watching the Towers, and though I wasn't the closest
I saw them crumble to the Earth like they was full of explosives
And they thought nobody noticed the news report that they did
About the bombs planted on the George Washington bridge
Four Non-Arabs arrested during the emergency
And then it disappeared from the news permanently
Immortal Technique, “Cause of Death” Lyrics

Yet the world on its own is dark.
G.W.F. Hegel


1. Introduction

Pyrotechnic effects and spectacular death belong to the symbolism of terror and political assassination—bizarre techniques of miscommunication through fear practiced on the innocent and designed to effect social change. Terror and assassination strike victims without warning, and may turn the flow of history. While focusing on the use of terror in 9-11, this paper deals with both these communicative practices of death.

“[A] wise prince,” advises Machiavelli (1979a, p. 148) , “must, whenever he has the occasion, foster with cunning some hostility so that in stamping it out his greatness will increase as a result.” I introduce a theory of terrorism inspired by Machiavelli’s observation. September 11 may be an example of expedient destruction ordered from within the state, a macabre instance of a state protection racket. What I call, Machiavellian state terrorism is terror/assassination performed for reasons different from the publicized ones; often initiated by persons or groups other than those suspected of the act; and—most important—secretly perpetrated by, or on behalf, of the violated state itself. Machiavellian state terror advances the ruling agenda while disguising itself as the work of individuals or groups opposed to the state’s fundamental principles. I present as an example, an obscure 1971 assassination in Paris that obliquely foreshadows some critical elements of the official story of 9-11. I conclude with a discussion of the importance of oppositional theory for maintaining a lively and democratic public discourse.

Terror and Assassination

A sociological study on the history of political murder examines “the rhetoric of assassinations”: killing as a textual event (Ben-Yahuda, 1993, pp. 52-3). Equally effective at spreading fear, terror and political assassination differ in only one respect: “the target of a political assassination plot is a very specific individual. The target of terrorism is not.” Assassinations, like other terrorist events, may have massive consequences. For example, in the few weeks, following Martin Luther King’s “violent annihilation . . . in Memphis . . . it would seem that King’s death had been almost a personal enactment of the death of the nonviolent movement in America [and had] extinguished with him the nation’s highest moral adventure in recent history” (Frady, 2002, p. 206). Similarly, the 9-11 terror attack derailed the anti-globalization movement, substituting the “War on Terror” for the fight against exploitative international capitalism. Under the 2001 USA PATRIOT Act (Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism) invoked as a response to September 11 (but planned well beforehand), anti-globalization protest is now considered “a crime of domestic terror” (Chossudovsky, 2005, p. 9).

Inappropriate Left Response

Jean Baudrillard (2001) famously observed that September 11 rehearsed any number of Hollywood disaster scripts, combining, “the white magic of movies and the black magic of terrorism.” The French theorist may have originated the default left response to 9-11: “It is almost they who did it, but we who wanted it.” Accordingly, in the aftermath of the 7 July 2005 terror bombing of the London Underground, some progressive voices in the UK opined that that this was payback for UK involvement in the war against Iraq. However, as with September 11 and many other examples in the history of terrorism, the only purposes truly served by the bombings were those of the ruling party. And the unfortunate progressive response itself—by equating the Underground attacks with British participation in the US occupation of Iraq —strangely dovetailed with the claim that the left is on the side of terrorists.

The London 7/7 attacks provided a new legitimacy to those who had ordered the illegal invasion of Iraq. They contributed to significantly weakening the antiwar and civil rights movements, while triggering an atmosphere of fear and racial hatred across Britain and the European Union (Chossudovsky, 2005, p. 328).

The widespread reaction to 9-11 by established figures on the Anglo-American left, such as Noam Chomsky and his followers at Z Magazine and ZNet.org, suggests that the New York and Washington terror attacks were a predictable (if imprudent) reaction to US provocation. This view is also common among respected left scholars in the third world. Samir Amin (Amin, 2001, p. 20), for example, Director of the African Office at the Third World Forum in Dakar, Senegal, writes:

The instinctive horror any normal human being must feel at the sight of a massacre of large numbers of innocent people should not make us forget the role in this of U.S. po1icy and that of its G–7 allies . . . The American public needs to know that this is the reason why the attacks on the United States have not met with universal and unqualified opprobrium as it has been led to believe. The strategic choice of targets—New York’s financial center and the Pentagon—has even been applauded and not only by a handful of Islamic fanatics but by a large majority of public opinion in Africa and Asia and a sizeable sector of European opinion.

I argue that this establishment-left position—presented in an array of left-wing and liberal journals and websites, from Counterpunch to The Nation and from Socialist Register to The New Left Review is politically dubious and out of touch with the historical realities of terrorism. Machiavelli (1979b, p. 361) warned that successful assassinations are most often carried out from within the close circle of trusted advisers surrounding the murder target. “[F]or others, if they are not actually mad, cannot conspire, since weak men and men not close to the prince lack all hopes and opportunities which are required for the execution of a conspiracy.” The same is true, I believe, of successful terrorist conspiracies: convenient opportunities for maximum impact of terrorist events may be best known by, and available to those in power.

No hypotheses are put forward in this essay about the methods used to engineer 9-11, or the exact parties who conspired in its production. These likely will never be fully known, just as the famed Reichstag fire, seventy years later, remains shrouded in mystery (although we can imagine how, if transported back in time, the modern left would react to the disaster in Berlin: a bad thing done in a good cause). Instead I want to show how September 11 follows a typical pattern: a convenient terrorist event explained by the media in terms of widely shared stereotypical understandings, and then embellished and deepened by compliant intellectuals.


2. By Way of a Preface: The Left Response to September 11

In his careful analysis of the September 11 attacks, David Ray Griffin (Griffin 2004, p. xv-xvi) suggests that it is not surprising that the mainstream media have ignored questions about US government complicity; similarly, “it is not surprising that . . . right-wing and even middle-of-the-road commentators have not raised serious questions about the official account.” But Griffin wonders why, “America’s leftist critics of US policy, who are seldom worried about being called either unpatriotic or sacrilegious, have for the most part not explored, at least in public discourse, the possibility of official complicity.” Left commentators are aware of the perfect symmetry between pre-9-11 Bush administration plans for a greatly expanded military role for the United States, and the government’s revenge attacks on Afghanistan and Iraq that followed September 11. “These critics also know,” adds Griffin, “that the United States has many times in the past fabricated an ‘incident’ as a pretext for going to war—most notoriously for the wars against Mexico, Cuba, and Vietnam.” In place of official complicity, left commentators have embraced “a ‘coincidence theory’ according to which the attacks of 9/11 were, from the US government’s point of view, simply a godsend, which just happened to allow it to carry out its agenda.” Leftist critics have failed to raise questions about the September 11 terror attacks, even though proof of US involvement “would surely be the most effective way to undermine policies of the Bush administration to which they are so strongly opposed.”

The official story of September 11 features many doubtful circumstances that might be profitably explored by the left. Griffin and other 9-11 skeptics have identified striking anomalies in the White House story as painstakingly documented in The 9/11 Commission Report: Final Report of the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States (National Commission on Terrorist Attacks upon the United States, 2005). The essays in this book advance further evidence casting doubt on the Washington version. A mélange of contradictory facts might have offered a wonderful sub-plot for the Marx Brothers’ conspiracy thriller, Duck Soup (indeed some of these—such as the Bush/bin Laden family connection— are uproariously explored in Michael Moore’s landmark film, Fahrenheit 9/11): the US military’s redoubtable standard response procedures fail miserably as multiple hijacked passenger planes criss-cross American skies (Zarembka chapter). Fanatical Muslim hijackers, already suicided in New York and Washington, turn up alive and well in various parts of the Middle East (Kolar chapter). Mohammed Atta—crazed, sternly devout Muslim intent on teaching the West a lesson it will never forget—fortifies himself beforehand with alcohol, lap dancers and pork chops for dinner. He leaves his will and other self-incriminating evidence in two carry-on bags he apparently meant to take with him on his fiery journey to New York (Griffin, 2005, pp. 20-21). Passengers in plain sight of grim-faced hijackers armed with box-cutters make multiple cell phone calls at high altitudes that provide key details for 9-11—even though most of these calls could not have gone through, given existing cell phone technology (Chossudovsky, 2005, pp. 259-60). Airplane-proof buildings collapse seemingly on cue (Jones chapter), and none of the occupants survive, the stacked bodies warehoused in macabre showrooms, closed to the press. As if to mock Edward Said’s criticisms of Orientalism, a comic book Arab terrorist holed up in mountainous Afghanistan feeds the media with grainy videos about his faraway exploits in America.

In my view, there are several key reasons for left resistance to questioning the dubious official story of September 11. In the first place, the left—already anxious about its place in respectable dialogue on international affairs and national politics—fears stepping too far outside acknowledged boundaries of discourse, as these are defined and policed by academia, mass media, and the state. Second, commentators on the left are disposed to an idea of terrorism as the understandable reaction of underprivileged groups to oppression. Finally, the left is suspicious of conspiracy theories that cast elite groups as behind-the-scenes directors of sociopolitical events.

Maintaining Boundaries

“The conclusions [about US complicity in the attacks] are difficult to accept,” observes Michel Chossudovsky,

“because they point to the criminalization of the upper echelons of the State. They also confirm the complicity of the corporate media in upholding the legitimacy of the Administration’s war agenda and camouflaging US sponsored war crimes” (Chossudovsky, 2005, p. xxi).

Thanks to 9-11 and other terrorist incidents, including the July 2005 London Underground bombings, governments in the United States, the United Kingdom and elsewhere, have legislated extremely rigorous limits on dissent regarding the War on Terror. Not only aimed at suspected terrorists “through ethnic profiling,” these sanctions are also directed at human rights organizations and anti-war groups.

People can be arbitrarily arrested under the antiterrorist legislation and detained for an indefinite period. More generally, throughout the Western world, citizens are being tagged and labeled, their emails, telephone conversations and faxes are monitored and archived. Thousands of closed-circuit TV cameras, deployed in urban areas, are overseeing their movements. Detailed personal data is entered into giant Big Brother data banks. Once this cataloging has been completed, people will be locked into watertight compartments (Chossudovsky 2005, p. xix).

Government and media clampdown on discourse around September 11 likely has had some impact on the established left, given its legitimate desire for standing in national and international debates. But another factor may be more important. The left’s general view is that terrorism is a manifestation of discontent arising from oppression by the powerful. The Palestinian suicide campaign against the Israeli government, for example, fits this model.

Terrorism as the Result of Oppression

In the left version of 9-11 (generally following a scenario volunteered by Osama bin Laden), mayhem in New York and Washington was a result of America’s brutal globalization campaign that has marginalized the poor and disenfranchised of the earth. Thus, political analyst Michael Parenti (2002, p. 46), pointed out that bin Laden is a “rich, reactionary religious fanatic . . . [who] harnessed the legitimate grievances that people have felt regarding the conditions of their lives and directed them toward irrelevant foes.” In an article entitled “Globalization and September 11,” political sociologist Michael Mann (2001, p. 60) proffered a similar diagnosis. “September 11 revealed a . . . spectacular example of the use of the weapons of the weak. A dozen or so terrorists, armed with knives and civilian airliners, killed just over 3,000 people, demolished the twin towers of the World Trade Centre—just off Wall Street—and one of the Pentagon’s five sides: key symbols of US economic and military power.”

“Blowback” constitutes an elaboration on the left viewpoint, suggesting that September 11 erupted from the decades-long US sponsorship of jihadi fighters, in the struggle against the Former Soviet Union in Afghanistan that created al Qaeda. “The blowback has been quite direct,” avers Chomsky (2001, pp., 27, 61), “and of a kind very familiar from 50 years of history, including the drug flow and the violence.”

Ironically, the official Washington variant differs only in rhetorical stance: September 11 was a fanatical riposte to America’s crusade for freedom, a wildly successful gamble by vengeful Islam’s dark forces. The Washington version might have little trouble incorporating blowback: this was a case of unworthy Muslims biting the hand that fed them.

The establishment-left response to the destruction in New York and Washington reflects a conventional liberal and critical position on terrorist violence. From this perspective, violent acts against a dominant state are “an understandable response to oppression and exploitation, the last resort of the deprived and desperate” (Turk, 2004, p. 273). Leading liberal sociologist Charles Tilly (2003, pp. 235, 175)–who accepts the official position that “Muslim suicide squads crashed packed passenger jets into the Pentagon and the World Trade Center”—affirms that, “political actors most likely to employ extraordinary forms of threat and violence against their enemies come mostly from the excluded.”

Shut out by the corporate media and other mainstream sources of information, “[s]ympathetic accounts accepting terrorism as an understandable, perhaps even legitimate, form of defense and protest against oppression and threat are more likely to appear in radical, underground or non-Western communications” (Turk, 2004 p.). Mary Kaldor, for example, Director of the Centre for the Study of Global Governance at the London School of Economics, submits a view of September 11 held by other prominent British left-intellectuals on the Open Democracy Web site, including Tom Nairn, Susie Orbach and Stephen Lukes. She proposes September 11 resulted from “Regressive Globalisation”:

Related to the sense of insecurity is the encounter with globalisation, that is to say with growing interconnectedness, and the sense of impotence that arises when crucial decisions that affect every day life are taken at a further and further remove. The leaders of the team of young Saudis who committed suicide on 11 September 2001 were all educated in the west. This is typical of many religious militants, who are often migrants, either from countryside to town or from south to west, experiencing the loss of ties to their places of origin whilst not yet integrated into their new homes.

The left explanation of 9-11 terror as a response to globalization may be fundamentally misguided. I argue below that a socio-historical understanding of terrorism demands recognizing the close links of most forms of terrorism with state power. Terrorism is much less likely to be a manifestation of a revolt by, or on behalf of, the underprivileged than it is to be a demonstration of brute force by the state or its agents. Moreover, equating 9-11 terrorism with the impact of impersonal economic forces like globalization opens left commentators to the charge that they are excusing terrorism, and have no moral grasp of the enormity of terrorist liquidation of innocent lives (Bar-On and Goldstein, 2005, p. 238). Norman Geras, a Marxist professor and “darling of the Washington right wing for his outspoken support of the war in Iraq,” (Sunday Times, 2005 February 6) exploited this weakness following the 7/7 bombings in London.

Within hours of the bombs going off two weeks ago, the voices that one could have predicted began to make themselves heard with their root-causes explanations for the murder and maiming of a random group of tube and bus passengers in London. It was due to Blair, Iraq, illegal war and the rest of it . . . . It needs to be seen and said clearly: there are, among us, apologists for what the killers do. They make more difficult the fight to defeat them. The plea will be - it always is - that these are not apologists, they are merely honest Joes and Joanies endeavouring to understand the world in which we live. What could be wrong with that? What indeed? Nothing is wrong with genuine efforts at understanding; on these we all depend. But the genuine article is one thing, and root-causes advocacy seeking to dissipate responsibility for atrocity, mass murder, crime against humanity, especially in the immediate aftermath of their occurrence, is something else (Geras, 2005).

Rejecting Conspiracy Theory

Left resistance to alternative explanations of 9-11 reflects a general antipathy to conspiracy theory even though the official story itself relies on a very elaborate web of conspiracy, involving bin Laden and many others (Griffin 2005, p. 5; Pratt, 2003, p. 255). This may explain why the editors of the respected left journal Monthly Review signaled soon after the tragedies in New York and Washington that independent investigation of the actual events was off-limits.

There is little we can say directly about the September 11 terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon in Washington, D.C.—except that these were acts of utter, inhuman violence, indefensible in every sense, taking a deep and lasting human toll (Magdoff and Foster, 2001, p. 1).

The left favours structural explanations of political and social events, with capacious categories such as social class, globalization, international relations and so forth brought to bear on social phenomena, including terrorism. Oppositional theory which takes dialectical approach to social relations emphasizes (along with structural factors) elite agency: the actions of powerful leaders and organizations with more control over critical events that directly affect our own lives than many leftwing analysts are prepared to accept. Moreover, elites operate within a deep political structure (discussed below) that is an unacknowledged part of the network of political power analyzed by the left.

Commentators on the left, like pundits elsewhere on the political spectrum, are hesitant to go far astray of the limits on accepted discourse regarding controversial questions, especially, as in the case of 9-11, when corporate media and the state heavily police these boundaries. There is a left bias towards explanations of terror as the result of exploitation and revolt of the underprivileged. Finally, the left is averse to conspiracy theories spun by critics of the system, seeing such theories as antithetical to systematic analysis based on larger factors, like class struggle or globalization.

Leftist failure to consider official complicity in the events of September 11 may also arise from a common misapprehension of the historical roots of terror. Most commentators regardless of political stripe regard “terrorism . . . as a non- or extra-state menace, rather than as state violence.” However, this perspective ignores “the possibility that the excessive violence of the state might itself, in certain instances, constitute a form of terrorist violence” (Bar-On and Goldstein, 2005, p. )

Sources of Terror

It is useful to look at the main sources of political assassination and terrorist events. Organized groups from the periphery standing in opposition to the state constitute one source of terror. These groups wish to seize power from the centre, and replace it with their own system of government. Terror may also result from two or more contesting “symbolic-moral universes, ” (Ben-Yahuda, 1993, p. 15)—as in the dichotomy posited by the official Washington explanation of 9-11: a clash between freedom-loving America projected by President Bush, and Osama bin Laden’s thwarted Muslim world. Powerful individuals at the centre of the state constitute another—though less commonly recognized—source of terror. This form of terror is carried out by the state and perpetrated within the state itself.

Left explanations of September 11 typically involve variations on the first and second sources of terrorist violence: the attacks on New York and Washington were a blow from the oppressed periphery against the heart of empire, an explosive, if unwise, response from the radical Muslim universe against that of American-led globalization. But this ignores the third, most virulent source of terror, the state.


3. Taxonomy of Terrorism

I want to suggest that the September 11 terror attacks are most likely an example of the third source of terror, an attack from within ordered by those at the centre of the state.

First Source of Terror: Organized Groups from the Periphery

Most theories of terrorism frame political violence “as being restricted to non-state actors who unlawfully (from the perspective of Western countries) challenge some aspect of the status quo” (Bar-On and Goldstein, 2005, p. 227-28). Such theories normally deal with the first source of terror discussed above—attacks from the periphery directed at the centre.

Conventional notions of terrorism include Domestic Terrorism, violent symbolic acts, usually aimed at government (though these could also target individuals or non-governmental organizations) carried out by autonomous individuals or groups with a grievance, real or contrived. “It is this meaning of terrorism that today is what most people think of when they hear the term terrorism, especially in the light of the spectacular events of 9/11” (Bar-On and Goldstein, 2005, p. 42). Aijaz Ahmed (2004, p. 47), for example, discusses terror from “the peripheries of the capitalist system,” which now involve

the ideologies of the Hindu far right in India, the sundry fundamentalisms of Islamic mullahs, or the millenarian ideologies of those who brought us September 11th. Terrorism is now where national liberation used to be, and the US today chases these handful of terrorists as assiduously and globally as it used to chase phalanxes of revolutionaries until not long ago.


The terror campaign led by British suffragists in the early twentieth century, which involved among other events, the 1913 mutilation of rare orchids in London’s Kew Gardens, falls short of our definition, since there were no civilian casualties, but it nevertheless gives a most interesting example of domestic terrorism aimed at patriarchal and imperialist symbols. Terrorism by the Front de libération du Québec (FLQ) which began with bombing neighbourhood mailboxes in English-speaking areas of Montreal is another instance (mailboxes of the period displayed the British crown, a provocative symbol in Quebec). This early 1960s political movement advocated violence to liberate the francophone province of Quebec from the rest of Canada, and constructed a model later imitated by the IRA in Northern Ireland, and other terrorist groups. But, as we shall see later, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) may have covertly influenced FLQ violence, as it accelerated into kidnapping and murder. The Red Brigade terror in Italy displays another example of domestic terrorism. However, doubts have been raised as to whether the Red Brigade wasn’t actually acting for rightwing elements within the Italian state (Bar-0n and Goldstein, 2005, p. 229).

Terrorist acts against occupying powers—such as IRA violence against the British, or militant fury visited upon America and its allies in 21st century Iraq—are perhaps the most readily understandable instance of political violence. This mode of terrorism aims at “the creation of an independent homeland based on shared religious, ethnic or linguistic ties” (Bar-On and Goldstein, 2005, p. 228). Of course, as in most instances of non-state terrorism, the arms required for domestic terrorist acts are often provided, at great profit, by powerful states.

Second Source of Terror: Conflicting Symbolic-Moral Systems

Intra-civil society terrorism or what Nigerian activist Edwin Madunagu (2002) calls “communal or inter-ethnic ‘clashes’” took many lives during the 1990s, including the Rwandan genocide. “One of the twentieth century’s most effective terrorist forces,” observes Charles Tilly (2003, p. 175), “was the Apartheid regime’s South African Defense Force (SADF) which long deployed intimidation against people—both black and white whom it had identified as opposed to the regime.” White America’s century-long lynch law terror against African Americans, which featured for decades the highly popular exchange of lurid postcards of lynching victims in the US mail, must rank high among history’s most grotesque episodes of inter-ethnic brutality (Allen, Als, Lewis, & Litwack, 2000). Hitler’s genocide against the Jews, Slavs, gays and gypsies constitutes a horrific example of terror arising from conflicting symbolic-moral systems (Ben Yahuda, 1993, p. 15). The terror war against aboriginal peoples in North American, Australia and New Zealand offers another instance of intra-civil society terrorism. Although Canadians “pride themselves with living in a peaceful society that places a high premium on human rights,” (Bar-On and Goldstein, 2005, p. 234), Canada has a history of malevolence towards aboriginal peoples. In 1995, an Ontario Provincial Police sharpshooter murdered an unarmed protester named Dudley George during a First Nations occupation of Ipperwash Provincial Park, built over a native burial ground. The newly elected Conservative provincial government of Mike Harris encouraged, and then covered up the incident, which also involved brutal beatings of First Nations protesters by police (Edwards, 2003).

A less-recognized but very prevalent mode of terror based on conflicting total social systems is Military-state terrorism: “warfare deliberately waged against civilians with the purpose of destroying their will to support either leaders or policies that the agents of such violence find objectionable” (Carr, 2002, p. 6). Military historian Caleb Carr suggests this may be the oldest form of terrorism. Rome provided the model for most modern permutations of state terrorism, exhibiting a genius for destructive war against defenseless populations. In the Second World War and since, British and American state terrorism has far surpassed anything the Romans achieved in bloodletting of innocents. The incendiary effects of September 11, as terrible as they were, do not bear comparison with zealous American firebombing of virtually every urban conglomeration in Japan, or allied airpower’s fanatical destruction of hundreds of German cities and towns (Markusen and Kopf, 1995; Sebald, 2003). Japan’s infamous Rape of Nanking—when Japanese soldiers raped and chopped up helpless civilians, day after day—took a third of a million Chinese lives. Tilly (2002) estimates that “about 100 million people died in the twentieth century as a direct result of action by organized military units backed by one government or another. A comparable number of civilians likely died of war-induced disease and other indirect effects.”

Third Source of Terror: Political Violence from the Centre Directed Within (i)

The state may be the primary source of terror inflicted on its own citizens. As opposed to intra-civil society terrorism (which may be led by the state, as in Hitler’s genocide), this form of terror is based primarily on ideological as opposed to ethnic or cultural reasons. Indeed, the first use of the concepts of terror and terrorism is associated with the French government under Robespierre, which unleashed a horrendous campaign of State domestic terrorism, including “mass executions of suspected traitors of the French Revolution, from monarchists loyal to the ancien regime to those who questioned the policies of the new regime. This bloody period of French history has come to be known as the Reign of Terror” (Bar-On and Goldstein, 2005, p. 227). Apart from Robespierre, state-sanctioned murder is hardly novel, stretching from Stalin’s purges to Pol Pot’s elimination of teachers and other knowledge workers. More recent versions of state domestic terrorism include Russian overkill in the Chechen occupation at Beslan, or the ATF/FBI massacre of Branch Davidians, mostly children and women, at Waco, Texas. The United States government’s 1950s Red Scare against citizens suspected of being communists also qualifies as domestic state terrorism. McCarthyism’s record of murderous violence was modest: the public burning of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, a “handful of suicides,” and some high profile fatal heart attacks (Schrecker, 1998, p. 361); but its most barbaric achievement was to frighten and traumatize the American nation, wrecking Hollywood and decimating public education and the academy.

The bombing of the Presidential Palace in Santiago, Chile on Tuesday, September 11, 1973 began a campaign of state terror “synonymous with the some of the worst brutality of [the twentieth] century” in a country with “a rich cultural and political tradition” (Sagaris 1996, p. xxi, 7). Following the overthrow and murder of Chile’s President, Salvadore Allende—whose official funeral was delayed for seventeen years—the brutal, U.S.-supported regime of Augusto Pinochet executed or “disappeared” thousands of citizens, and subjected the nation to a sustained period of agony, where secret torture, rape and execution were commonplace. “The repercussions of the coup are still felt today and Chile, generally speaking, has not confronted its past” (Aguilera and Fredes, 2003, p. x). In the days following the coup, the regime imprisoned five thousand citizens in Santiago’s National Stadium, a soccer venue turned into a “house of horrors” (Chavkin, 1982, pp. 141, 148). The Swedish ambassador to Chile, Harald Edelstam, visited the Stadium in an attempt to rescue captured Swedish nationals and Chilean citizens and witnessed desolate scenes that Pinochet’s evil regime would repeat many times over for almost two decades.

Busloads of newly arrested people were jostled into the stadium by rifle
butts. Other groups were shoved out into trucks to begin the trip to remote concentration camps—Dawson Island near the Antarctic, or an isolated outpost in the Andean highlands. Unable to help Edelstam watched, horrified, as hundreds of people were “processed” each day. He became even more horrified when he learned of the tortures that went on in the subterranean passages of the stadium. By now it was an open secret that many prisoners were hooked up with electronic gadgetry through which electric shocks were administered to the nostrils, nipples, or genitalia. Others were mowed down by machine guns, individually or in groups. This had become a daily occurrence.

State domestic terrorism may flow beyond national borders. Stalin’s deadly purges, for example, included the execution of Trotsky, his family and many of his followers while they were living outside the Soviet Union. Operation Condor, through which Argentina, Chile and several other Latin American countries extended their domestic campaign of torture and assassination into Europe extends another instance of state domestic terrorism perpetrated on an international scale (Dinges, 2004). The French government “bombed the Greenpeace ship in New Zealand, killing a Portuguese photographer . . . [because it] apparently had not wanted environmental groups to interfere with its nuclear test policy in the South Pacific” (Bar-On and Goldstein, 2005, p. 233.)

In the final decade of the Cold War, the US used the concept of state-sponsored terrorism. “Bulgaria, East Germany, Libya, North Korea, and Syria were named as Soviet-controlled sponsors of anti-American terrorism” (Turk, 2004, p.). But the term applies also to terrorism sponsored by the United States, or other powers. Thus, the United States funded and directed political violence by the Contras in Nicaraugua (Bar-On and Goldstein, 2005, p. 232). Even military state terror by subordinate nations against their rivals may be guided and controlled by hegemonic states.

Most forms of terrorism are inherently vulnerable to manipulation by powerful states. “Authority,” noted C. Wright Mills (1959, p. 316), “is power that is explicit and more or less ‘voluntarily’ obeyed; manipulation is the ‘secret’ exercise of power, unknown to those who are influenced.” Much IRA violence, for example, may have been instigated by British security forces with the broad aim of perpetuating disorder in Northern Ireland (Sunday Herald, 2004). Similarly, the United States and its proxies, the jihadis fighting with the Bosnian Muslim army against the Armed Forces of the Yugoslavian Federation, contributed a great deal to the breakup of Yugoslavia (Chossudovsky, 2005, p 40). What Peter Dale Scott (2005) notices about “two kinds of businesses” is true for states also.

There are two kinds of businesses:
those which flourish from peace
and the strengthening of law
and those which require the opposite

Just as powerful governments are a likely source of much political violence, they also successfully influence the public toward certain views on terrorism. The United States government actively discourages use of the term terrorism to describe not only its own murderous actions, but also domestic terrorist acts, such as abortion clinic bombings and assassinations of physicians who provide reproductive health care (Turk, 2004). Relations between Japan and China have been damaged by Japan’s failure to admit its terrorist role in the Rape of Nanking. Similarly, the United Kingdom and the United States have successfully obscured the terrible human cost of strategic bombing in Germany and the firebombing of Japan. In the case of nuclear terror inflicted on Hiroshima, “it is no coincidence that [during the fiftieth anniversary of the nuclear strike] U. S. military authorities strenuously censored reporting of the bombing, especially reporting that foregrounded the suffering of Japanese bodies” (Gusterson, 2004, p. 79).

4. Machiavellian State Terrorism and Deep Politics

Third Source of Terror: Political Violence from the Centre Directed Within (ii)

September 11, 2001 likely belongs to a long history of terrorist attacks and assassinations secretly ordered by powerful individuals at the centre of the state in order to destroy domestic opposition, or to make possible and/or justify already planned government policy. I call this Machiavellian state terrorism. This form of state terror differs from those surveyed above in two respects. It is secretly and deliberately confected to provide an excuse for achieving certain state objectives; and it is designed to implicate a particular group or individual other than the real perpetrators. Although the U.S.-inspired Pinochet coup in Chile conforms somewhat to this definition, given its initial secrecy and covert methods (Haslam, 2005), the Chilean dictatorship—relying on support from elites and a significant proportion of Chilean citizens—openly acknowledged that it was the source of terror visited upon opponents of the regime.

By contrast, secrecy is paramount in Machiavellian state terrorism. Much evidence indicates, for example, that Martin Luther King Jr.’s assassination, which severely damaged the U.S. civil rights movement, was a government hit, successfully disguised as the action of a deranged white racist acting alone (Pepper, 2003). Similarly, Stalin probably ordered the assassination of Kirov, leading member of the Soviet politburo and a possible competitor. Stalin used the December 1934 murder as an excuse to unleash the purges against his erstwhile Bolshevik comrades (Knight, 1999). Almost two years earlier, in February 1933, Hitler took advantage of the Reichstag Fire, which the Nazis started themselves, to promulgate the first exceptional laws against German civil rights.

Using this internally manufactured act of terror, the Nazis passed a series of bills limiting civil liberties, and so managed to scare the population as to score . . . a narrow electoral victory. Thereafter, on the strength of this emergency legislation, they annihilated the Leftist opposition in a few months (Preparata, 2005, p. 203).

Although a frequent occurrence in history, Machiavellian state terrorism is the most difficult to recognize and accept because it involves those “invested with power and legitimacy . . . [who] are, supposedly, the guardians of the symbolic moral universe and its boundaries” (Ben-Yahuda, 1993, p. 15). In Machiavellian state terrorism, the “guardians . . . abuse their power and twist and mock their moral obligations, committing despised and harmful acts.”

I use the term Machiavellian state terrorism to differentiate it from other forms of terrorism connected with government. To summarize, Machiavellian state terrorism is terror/assassination performed for reasons different from the publicized ones; often initiated by persons or groups other than those suspected of the act; and—most important—secretly perpetrated by, or on behalf, of the violated state itself.

Machiavellian state terrorism may be the most common terrorist variant since it occurs in times of peace as well as war and is funded by agencies with deep pockets, rich technical expertise, and limitless connections. It may manifest itself in surprising ways: the bungled 1887 “Jubilee Plot”: an attempt on the life of Queen Victoria by Fenians run by the British government (Campbell, 2002); deliberate spread of lies by agents of the Belgian state in the Congo about rape and murder of Belgian nationals as part of a plan to topple Patrice Lumumba (De Witt, 2001). Machiavellian state terrorism may embrace other facets of terrorism: government officials planned and triggered intra-civil society massacre in Rwanda.

Machiavellian state terrorism forms part of the system of deep politics analyzed in an earlier piece in Research in Political Economy (MacGregor 2002). Deep politics concerns political phenomena that are unacknowledged or repressed in ordinary discourse. The deep political system brings together—along with the criminal underworld (Woodiwiss, 2001, p. 388) and covert government operations—the power elite discussed by C. Wright Mills (1959): great wealthy families, corporate leaders, government officials, top political figures, and the military. As with any social system, deep political phenomena are characterized by regularities and hierarchies, identifiable organizations and cultural and symbolic meanings.

Rarely studied in academia, and barely mentioned in mainstream news media, deep politics is integral to the American social imaginary, informing rap music, for example, and other types of protest art. “Why did Bush knock down the towers?” wondered Jadakiss in the best-selling 2004 rap album Kiss of Death. Rapper Immortal Technique, born in a Peruvian military hospital and paroled in New York State from a sentence for violent assault in 1999, extends perhaps the most ominous critique in “Cause of Death”:

My words'll expose George Bush and Bin Laden
As two separate parts of the same seven headed dragon
And you can't fathom the truth
so you don't hear me
_You think illuminati's just a fuckin conspiracy theory?_
That's why Conservative racists are all runnin' shit_
And your phone is tapped by the Federal Government_.

Most of us are already familiar with deep politics as an unacknowledged cinematic subject. The repressed finds an outlet in Hollywood’s dream life (Pratt, 2001). Cary Grant framed for murder in the terrifying upside-down world of North By Northwest might have been an older, nattier, luckier Lee Harvey Oswald. America invented the assassination preview: Suddenly, The Man Who Knew Too Much, or The Manchurian Candidate stand as improbable dress rehearsals for the murderous cinematic production in Dealey Plaza that showed—as a review in Critical Criminology (MacDonald, 2005, p. 240) puts it—how “a conspiracy involving multiple riflemen killed President Kennedy.” Mr. Zapruder’s shocking outtake returned the favor, launching—as convincingly argued by David Lubin (2003) in Shooting Kennedy –an entirely new and violent vision in American movies. This vision featured ever more explicit encounters with a deep political universe, as in Winter Kills, Executive Action, The Parallax View (which dealt with political assassinations) or The Godfather trilogy and Scarface (links between politics, business, and organized crime). Oliver Stone may be the most influential deep politics filmmaker, constructing film narratives (such as JFK) “compellingly evocative of and appropriate to his time, in all his aesthetic excesses, conspiratorial tendencies and public audacity” (Sturken 1997, p. 64).

Numerous disaster movies, and conspiracy thrillers like Arlington Road, which concluded with a massive terrorist bombing in Washington, primed the American collective unconscious for 9-11. A BBC (2002) documentary indicated that “Hollywood had researched scenarios such as hijacks, bombs in New York, manhunts for Muslim extremists and even the use of planes as guided missiles aimed at Washington . . . Intensive research gave movie makers uncanny insight into terrorist methods and psychology.” Writing in New Left Review Mike Davis (2001, pp. 37-38) observes that

[T]he attacks on New York and Washington DC were organized as epic horror cinema with meticulous attention to mise en scène. Indeed, the hijacked planes were aimed to impact precisely at the vulnerable border between fantasy and reality . . . George W. Bush, who has a bigger studio, meanwhile responds to Osama bin Laden, as one auteur to another, with his own fiery wide-angle hyperboles.

Deep politics may lend itself to moviemaking because of cinema’s anxious focus on good and evil: the Manichean frame plays as well on the screen as it does in Presidential press conferences. To this extent, Baudrillard (2002) is correct: knowledge of evil is mostly repressed and denied in the West. “Evil . . . can’t be subdued by any form of rationality. This is the illusion of the West: because technological perfection seems within reach, one believes by extension in the possibility of realizing moral perfection, in a future free of contingencies in the best of all possible worlds.” Machiavellian state terrorism, and other forms of politically inspired malevolence, belong to a wider category I have called, the political economy of concrete evil: the systematic study of outbreaks of evil in history.




5. Genealogy of Machiavellian state terrorism

A sympathetic student of Machiavelli, G.W.F. Hegel (1995, p. 212) drew attention to police manipulation of innocent parties in his lectures on political theory. Hegel wanted to identify the socio-historical conditions of “concrete evil”—the intermittent, sudden, and transitory appearance of large-scale human malevolence. In his Heidelberg lectures on the Philosophy of Right of 1817/18—not published until almost 170 years after his death—Hegel offered a frank discussion of corrupt police power. Law officers are necessary to prevent the occurrence of evil amidst “all the thrust and bustle of civil society.” However, Hegel worried that the modern state encouraged in the police “a disposition to be false and do all they can to catch someone.” The result could be an alliance of police with the underworld, and a propensity to incite criminal acts, or falsify crimes against the state. Hegel refers to police spies in London who tricked three Irish day labourers into taking part in a counterfeit money operation, and then turned these unfortunates over to the authorities to collect a bounty. Such degenerate practices, he warned, “can give rise to the abyss of depravity.”

Hegel’s example of corrupt police power resembles Tilly’s (1986, p. 171; Arrighi, 2005, p. 109) notion of a state protection racket. States maintain a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence through their claim to protect citizens from criminals or against external enemies. However, states often follow practices made familiar by organized crime’s protection rackets, where the racketeer “creates a threat and then charges for its reduction.” From this perspective,

[g]overnment’s provision of protection . . . often qualifies as racketeering. To the extent that the threats against which a given government protects its citizens are imaginary or are consequences of its own activities, the government has organized a protection racket. Since governments themselves commonly simulate, stimulate, or even fabricate threats of external war and since the repressive and extractive activities of governments often constitute the largest current threats to the livelihoods of their own citizens, many governments act in essentially the same ways as racketeers. There is, of course, a difference: racketeers, by the conventional definition, operate without the sanctity of government.

In the early development of the modern state, Tilly observes, terror played an important role. States cemented their power by commissioning brigands to attack rivals; they encouraged their own soldiers to provide for themselves through plunder and rape of civilians. Similarly, Linebaugh and Rediker (2001) document in The Many-Headed Hydra, their study of the rise of the British Transatlantic empire, how governments secretly used domestic terror, or the threat of terror, to discipline and divide citizens, and to maintain absolute state power.

How do rulers achieve and retain authority when they actively engage in terror? Tilly (1986, p. 171) argues that power-holders seek assent not from those over whom power is wielded, but from other power-holders.

Legitimacy is the probability that other authorities will act to confirm the decisions of a given authority. Other authorities, I would add, are much more likely to confirm the decisions of a challenged authority that controls substantial force; not only fear of retaliation, but also desire to maintain a stable environment recommend that general rule.

In other words, Machiavellian state terrorism depends on the acquiescence of rival power holders, who have the means for revealing the truth but choose not to do so. Accordingly, powerful men in the Kremlin like Bukharin, who suspected Stalin’s complicity in the murder of Kirov, opted for silence. They did so in part because this revelation would cause conflict that “would bring the system crashing down . . . They had helped to build the cult of Stalin, upon which the edifice of the state rested, and they would have thrown the entire regime into jeopardy if they had questioned the official version of what happened to Kirov” (Knight, 1999, pp. 267-68). This sort of reluctance may account for the glaring absences and distortions in the 1964 Warren Report that confirmed Oswald as the lone shooter in Dealey Plaza. It certainly may have some bearing on the status of The 911 Commission Report, which reveals despite its manifest intentions, evidence of a cover-up at the highest level (Griffin, 2005, p. 291).

6. “Intoxication” and Left Reaction to September 11

Assassination is technically quite demanding, for, at least in a democracy, it must be convincingly disguised as a suicide, accident, fatal illness, crime of passion or, most elegant of all, a “settling of accounts” (McLoughlin, 1998, p. 209).


Among highly developed capitalist democracies, Canada may have the most enviable reputation for probity and honest dealing. However, the terror campaign of the Front de libération du Québec (FLQ) which began in the early 1960s and concluded almost a decade later involved deception and terrorist violence by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police that sparked two official inquiries in 1977. The Mounties engineered the second, federal inquiry to limit damage that might have been caused by the original, Quebec government investigation. Authorities suppressed the first volume of the massive federal McDonald Commission report; it has not yet been released to the public. Nevertheless, the Canadian media dug up disturbing evidence of RCMP brutality disguised as instances of FLQ violence, or what I have called, Machiavellian state terrorism.

Almost two decades later an independent investigator uncovered documents showing the RCMP had executed in 1971 a prominent FLQ member named Mario Bachand in Paris, France. This state execution contained, in miniature, some elements suggestive of September 11, including the creation of non-existent terrorist groups and intense manipulation of the mass media. It is likely after all that the imagination and resources of intelligence services are circumscribed—like those of any other organization—by history and personal experience.

frater plecticus
The FLQ, Intoxication, and September 11

On March 29, 1971 two RCMP operatives—a man and a woman posing as Canadian journalists—shot Mario Bachand, a prominent 27 year-old FLQ member, in his friend’s Paris apartment (McLoughlin 1998). The RCMP may have targeted Bachand to inform the FLQ that the game was over. Indeed, following his assassination there were no further FLQ operations. Canadian secret police prepared carefully for the Paris shooting, putting out false news stories about an FLQ rift that centered on Bachand months before agents shot him three times in the head with a silencer-equipped .22 pistol. The few scattered remnants of the Quebecois terrorist group likely realized Bachand’s death was a state execution. But left-wing independantistes in Quebec (who shared the FLQ’s aim of a sovereign Quebec, if not its methods) never questioned the official story—the alternative, that Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau’s government brutally murdered a Canadian citizen overseas was not even considered.

Bachand’s death is important for my argument because it provides a fully documented account of a modern secret service assassination/terrorist operation in a Western democracy. (Another thoroughly investigated instance is the assassination of Martin Luther King [Pepper, 2003] but King’s murder—unlike Bachand’s—does not appear to have involved the deliberate creation of terror groups by government.) The success of the Bachand murder plot depended on what French special services call, “intoxication”—“the cloud of disinformation” that surrounds assassinations and other terrorist events carried out by state security agencies (McLoughlin, 1998, pp. 243, 245). Initial reports (covertly produced by the Canadian embassy in Paris) said that “a mysterious young Canadian” had been found beaten to death in his apartment. Although the body had not been identified, said the press releases, it was likely that of Mario Bachand, an FLQ militant who had made sworn enemies with his revolutionary colleagues. “The cover story—that the FLQ had killed Bachand—appeared almost immediately . . . Once the mind has accepted one explanation, it will resist others that are more troublesome.” The imprecision and implied mystery of the first reports encouraged readers to accept what they were given.

Reported cell phone calls from Muslim-guided aircraft veering toward New York and Washington apparently provided most of the initial explanation for what happened on September 11. That some of the 19 hijackers were actually alive and living somewhere in the Middle East, combined with other incongruous elements revealed later, added to the mystery of September 11. But the cover story was firmly established before the end of that eventful day. Box-cutter wielding Arab fanatics with a murderous grudge against the West flew packed, heavily jet-fuel laden passenger planes into symbol-charged targets with terrible, almost unforeseen results. It was a story the left would grow to accept as its own. Tariq Ali (2002a), writing in The New Left Review, provided a template.

The complacency of this world was severely shaken by the events of 11 September. What took place—a carefully planned terrorist assault on the symbols of US military and economic power—was a breach in the security of the North American mainland, an event neither feared nor imagined by those who devise war-games for the Pentagon. The psychological blow was unprecedented. The subjects of the Empire had struck back.

The left seemed unconcerned that, apart from bin Laden’s cartoon-like videos and some other forms of intoxication surrounding September 11 (such as al Jazeera’s “independent” newscasts ), official government sources provided most of the hard details on the destruction of the World Trade Center and the attack on the Pentagon, including identities of the supposed hijackers retrieved from the wreckage of the Twin Towers. This pattern would reappear in London in July 2005 when police somehow managed to rescue from smoldering ruins in the destroyed Underground tunnel drivers’ licenses and other material proving culpability of four young men, three of whom were Pakistani (Chossudovsky, 2005, p. 329).

When Mario Bachand sat down for lunch with two RCMP assassins a cover story for his murder had already been prepared. The same is true for the crazed flights that hit the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon. “The 1993 World Trade Centre bombing,” writes Peter Bergen, “looks increasingly like a dress rehearsal for al-Qaeda’s devastating attacks on the Twin Towers eight years later.” The elaborate RCMP cover story for Mario Bachand’s extermination contained some items familiar from 9-11 including an extremist Middle Eastern backdrop. In a few short months the RCMP gave birth to two separate, fictional terrorist groups based in exotic climes that would spawn a media frenzy in Canada. The RCMP operation illustrated two important aspects of U.S. intelligence actions surrounding September 11: “The US intelligence apparatus has created its own terrorist organizations. And at the same time, it creates its own terrorist warnings concerning the terrorist organizations which it has itself created” (Chossudovsky, 2005, p. 151)

Less than a year before Bachand’s assassination, a Radio-Canada reporter “accidentally” discovered two disguised FLQ militants taking lessons in what they called, “selective assassination” in a remote Palestinian guerilla training camp (McLoughlin, 1998, p. 183-186, 199-2020). Televised images broadcast across the globe showed “Sélim” and “Salem,” their faces obscured by keffiyehs, the Palestinian headgear favoured by Yassar Arafat. The two men revealed plans to return to Canada and kill high-level officials and others opposed to Quebec’s independence. In January 1971, six months after the impromptu desert meeting United Press International received an envelope containing a photograph of men in Palestinian scarves and carrying weapons. They looked a lot like “Sélim” and “Salem.” The package also contained a “communiqué from the Armée de liberation du Quebec (ALQ)” which promised to fight “for the liberation of the Quebec people, so long oppressed by the false cures of capitalism.” The communiqué, which received enormous publicity, concluded:

The ALQ is the military wing of the FLQ, like Assifah and Fatha. We claim responsibility for the action last year against the home of Drapeau “the dog” [the mayor of Montreal, whose home was bombed by the FLQ]. Throughout the world where there are struggles for popular liberation, our soldiers are in training: Angola, Cuba, the Middle East, Algeria, and soon Peking. See the photo of the training camp at Souf, Javash, in Jordan [in which a man holds a rocket-propelled grenade over his shoulder].

Courage, prisoner comrades and your families!
Victory! ALQ Central Committee

Along with their ALQ communiqué, “Sélim” and “Salem” would create in Algiers an FLQ offshoot called the Délégation extérieure du FLQ (DEFLQ). “The Algerian government supported the group with a subsidy of approximately 2,000 francs a month.” In December 1970, about three months before Bachand’s death, the DEFLQ released in Algiers a Bulletin condemning “a self-proclaimed General Secretary of the FLQ. This self-proclaimed pseudo-marxist Secretary General is among those who promote among socialist ranks the petit-bourgeois ideology of working-class submission to American power.” Of course, “Sélim” and “Salem” were RCMP operatives; the DEFLQ was a secret service invention; and the detested “self-proclaimed General Secretary” was Mario Bachand.

Although primitive by today’s standards, the RCMP’s murder operation involved feeding the press with countless items about FLQ activities overseas and fueling controversy about its nefarious program of assassination. Strangely, some well-known political commentators who spread the stories had an earlier background with the FLQ. These elements are familiar also in relation to September 11.

To sustain “the War on Terrorism” agenda . . . fabricated realities, funneled on a day to day basis into the news chain, must become indelible truths which form part of a broad political and media consensus . . . The most powerful component rests with the CIA, which secretly subsidizes authors, journalists and media critics, though a web of private foundations and CIA sponsored front organizations (Chossudovsky, 2005, p. 153).

Now largely forgotten, the FLQ made plenty of world headlines in the 1960s and early 1970s. The New Left Review, for example, then an international bellwether of the radical left, featured an interview with high-ranking FLQ militant Charles Gagnon (1970) in its November/December 1970 issue. Gagnon, who had bombed a shoe factory in 1966 killing a female office worker and severely injuring several others, spoke of an FLQ alliance with the Black Panthers. But the bloom quickly faded. London-based Mary Kaldor’s (2003) brief account in the Open Democracy Web site of late twentieth century terrorism is symptomatic: she leaps from the French troubles in Algeria of the 1950s and early 1960s to the IRA uprising after Bloody Sunday, leaving the glory years of the FLQ (1963-1971) unmentioned. (When I entered the London School of Economics fresh from home-town Ottawa in 1975 the FLQ was well-known in Britain, four years after it had ceased operations). No doubt the script prepared by the RCMP (the CIA lent a hand) for Bachand’s execution was overly intricate. Recently released documents suggest the Trudeau government exaggerated the FLQ threat (Ottawa Citizen 2001). Will the same be said someday of bin Laden and Al-Qaeda?

The phony desert meeting with RCMP operatives disguised as FLQ militants schooled in deadly Palestinian guerilla techniques provided fuel for months of Canadian television and press commentary critical of the FLQ, and aroused much interest elsewhere in the world. The stage was set for Bachand’s termination and the final destruction of the FLQ. Similarly, revamped cold-war intellectual Samuel Huntington and his best-selling The Clash of Civilizations may have contributed more than anyone else to intoxication around September 11 (Chossudovsky, 2005, p. 194)—Huntington’s prophetic book even included Muslim fanatics who wear jeans, sip coke, and blow up passenger planes.

Huntington’s Clash of Civilizations

“The public reception of The Clash of Civilizations has been akin to that of some Hollywood blockbusters: panned by the critics but a box office success,” marveled Gusterson (2004, p. 125). Huntington’s book wasn’t the only one to foresee critical aspects of September 11. Many 9-11 skeptics noted Zbigniew Brzezinski’s remarks in The Grand Chessboard: American Primacy and its Geostrategic Imperatives (1997), where he indicated that a deep trauma, such as the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, would be necessary to awaken America to its geostrategic destiny in Eurasia and Central Asia. “Brzezinski’s book, authored by a former national security advisor,” observes David Ray Griffin, “cannot be considered simply one book among hundreds offering advice to the government . . . three years after Brzezinski’s apparent wish for a Pearl Harbor-type event was published . . . the Project for a New American Century [an influential right-wing think tank] would contain a similar passage.”

Though influential in higher policy circles, Brzezinski’s volume did not have the popular impact of Huntington’s controversial Clash of Civilizations, which set the tone for much discussion of Islam in the United States. “We cannot be sure,” remarked Hugh Gusterson (2004, p. 125), “why Huntington’s book sold so many copies and provoked such animated debate in the West.” First published as an article in Foreign Affairs in 1993 and released as a book in 1996, Clash of Civilizations adopts a “crude cultural determinism” that highlights three civilizations (there are seven civilizations in total, according to Huntington) with “potential for combustible interactions between them”: the Sinic (Chinese), Islamic and Western civilizations. A dynamic civilization with profound commitment to “Enlightenment values of rationality and human rights,” the West may be in decline as its population growth slows, “crime and drug abuse rates rise, the family erodes, and the Protestant work ethic weakens.” Huntington worried that

the West’s liberal concern to promote human rights and democracy throughout the world and its tendency to see Enlightenment values as universal rather than simply Western will drag it into conflicts with other civilizations in which it will lack the economic, political, and military power to prevail (Gusterson, 2004, p. 123).

While his book leaves Israel almost unmentioned, Huntington evokes a pugnacious Islam, founded on universalist values but without a central core state that would hold it together. “He suggests that, given the insistent drumbeat of Islamic-sponsored terrorist attacks on American embassies, airliners, and military facilities, the United States has since the Iranian revolution been in a ‘quasi war’ with Islamic civilization (Guunderson 2004, pp. 123-24).” Don’t take Americanization for genuine adoption of Western values, warns Huntington, in a curiously prescient passage. “Somewhere in the Middle East a half-dozen young men could well be dressed in jeans, drinking coke, listening to rap, and, between their bows to Mecca, putting together a bomb to blow up an American airliner (Huntington, 1996, p. 58. Quoted in Gusterson 2004, p. 126)”

As intoxication around September 11 thickened, influential left intellectuals like Michael Mann (2001, pp. 69-70) eagerly piggybacked on the Huntington thesis, proposing a left-tinted version of the famous clash of civilizations. Mann acknowledges Huntington’s influence on his discussion of “the cosmology [of the weak] . . . offered by the combat fundamentalists.”

According to bin Laden, the struggle ranges the Muslim against the infidel. To transplant Judeo-Christian symbols of heroism, it is also David against Goliath, and Robin Hood, stealing from the rich to give to the poor—not to mention Good against Evil, God against Satan. This is an appeal of some resonance, especially able to recruit young, educated dissidents in authoritarian states and young refugees, displaced by conflicts right across the Muslim world—neither having much future amid stagnating economies. These two groups are not very large, rarely generating the resources to seize power. But their capacity to disrupt and re-group is considerable, since they enjoy the sympathy of much of the poor and the middle class of the Muslim world.

A similar analysis is taken up by Pierre Mesnard y Mendez (2005, pp. 19, 7) writing in Socialism and Democracy.

What we know of the al Qaeda cadres indicates that they come from the upwardly mobile middle class of Arab nations, mainly Saudi Arabia and Egypt (the two principal US clients), that is blocked from independence and frustrated . . . It does not take much foresight to see that such terrorist groups will become a real threat if they get mass recruits from globalization’s new “informal proletariat,” counting by now two fifths of active population in the []South . . . . The actions of and reactions to al Qaeda (itself a reaction to US domination) are holy warfare of the monotheistic kind: Good against Evil, In God We Trust vs. The Great Satan.

The successful intoxication fostered around September 11 meant that the corporate mass media would classify Iraqi resistance to U.S. and British occupation as al Qaeda terrorism. American propaganda consistently identifies so-called Iraqi “militants” with Osama bin Laden’s henchman Abu Musad Al-Zarqawi (Chossudovsky, 2005, pp. 194-95). The circle is complete: 9-11 and the destruction of Afghanistan and Iraq may be neatly attributed to the “Islamofascist” bin Laden and his gang of terrorists and gangsters. Of course, the left rejects this equation, but the blowback thesis imprisons it within a narrow focus of debate—pitting Western democracy (globalization in the left variant) against an oppressed Muslim world led by deluded adherents of holy war.



7. Conclusion: September 11 as Machiavellian State Terrorism

It is vital in a democracy to question the state’s own account of itself—to engage in what I call, oppositional theorizing. Rather than accepting the official story of 9-11, which contains so many unsatisfactory elements, the left ought to theorize the attacks on New York and Washington from an oppositional standpoint. “Citizens are free . . . so long as nothing is hidden from them. Thus, they must watch, surveil, expose and reveal” (Dean, 2000, p. 16). Sadly, the established left has done the opposite. Respected left commentators have embraced a radicalized version of the White House 9-11 account of September 11. Claiming the attacks are payback for globalization exposes the left to charges of supporting terrorism. Even while denying stereotyped views of Islam, the left hardly doubts bin Laden’s “cartoonish parody . . . [of] Muslims as angry and violent” (Gusterson, 2004, p. 144).

The left embraces a distorted notion of political violence that sees it as an understandable response of the weak to provocations of the powerful. Yet what I have called Machiavellian state terrorism is a common feature in history. Acts of terror are vulnerable to manipulation, and far more likely to be a weapon of state rulers and their agents, than the oppressed masses. As a legitimized protection racket, the state may be tempted to inflict harm secretly on its own citizens in order to achieve unpublicized but highly desired goals. Rival power holders may find it inconvenient to confront lies which help maintain the current regime. This is likely the case with September 11, which provided American power a convenient excuse to conduct wars on Afghanistan and Iraq that had been planned well before. The left abjures conspiracy theory (while accepting the official bin Laden story) but oppositional theorizing—questioning government and looking for connections between events, perceiving the world “to be organized beneath the surface” (Sturken, 1997, p. 77)—is a critical features of what it means to be vitally active in the political universe.


REFERENCES

Aguilera, Pilar and Fredes, Ricardo (2003). Introduction. In Pilar Aguilera and Ricardo Fredes, eds. Chile: The Other September 11. Melbourne: Ocean Press.

Aijaz, Ahmad (2004). Imperialism of Our Time. In Leo Panitch and Colin Leys, eds. Socialist Register 2004. London: The Merlin Press.

Ali, Tariq (2002). “The Clash of Fundamentalisms.” New Left Review. Available at http://tariqali.org/ExtractClashPrologue.html Accessed 21 October 2005.

______ (2002). The Clash of Fundamentalisms: Crusades, Jihads and Modernity, London: Verso.

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1. Of course, some forms of political assassination also involve victims other than the intended target: such as, when a bomb is used to kill a political figure which also causes a number of other deaths—airplane sabotage, or bombings in busy urban areas.
2. The World Socialist Website (WSWS) is an exception. WSWS has posted several articles questioning U.S. complicity in the World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks. See, for example, Patrick Martin (2002), “Was the US government alerted to September 11 attack?”
3. As Preparata (2005, p. 208) details, plenty of evidence is available to implicate the Nazis in the Reichstag Fire. “With or without evidence, however, in terror ‘is fecit cui prodest’ always: the one who did it is the one benefiting from it—that is, the Nazis themselves.”
4. Parenti is described on the book jacket The Terrorism Trap: September 11 and Beyond as “one of the country’s leading political analysts.”
5. Chalmers Johnson (2000, p. 8) introduced the term a year before September 11 but he used it specifically to refer to unintended consequences of U.S. covert operations. “What the daily press reports as the malign acts of ‘terrorists’ or ‘drug lords’ or ‘rogue states’ or ‘illegal arms merchant’ often turns out to be blowback from earlier American operations.” The left debate has diluted this meaning.
6.Chomsky’s perspective is embraced by a legion of left-writers on ZNet.org.
7. Mary Kaldor, “Regressive Globalisation,” Open Democracy 25 September 2003 http://www.opendemocracy.net/democracy-ame...rticle_1501.jsp. Accessed October 23, 2005.
8. From its inception the FLQ was riddled with police spies, and by the time it ceased operations in 1971 many of its key members worked for the state security apparatus. See, for example, Michael McLoughlin’s (1998) Last Stop Paris: The Assassination of Mario Bachand and the Death of the FLQ.
9.We shall see, however that Tilly understands terrorism as primarily a weapon of excluded groups or individuals.
10.While accepting the blowback theory of September 11, Mesnard y Mendez (2005) unfolds a useful account of state terrorism.
11.J. I. Ross (2003) unveils a useful survey of state and political crime in The Dynamics of Political Crime. Tilly (2002) notes two main forms of modern state terrorism: genocide (aimed at certain racial, religious or ethnic groups) and politicide (directed at “populations identified by political affiliation”).
12.Of course, the full extent of the terror—including many assassinations—was kept secret by the Pinochet regime.
13. “[C]ritical popular films about militarism,” writes Hugh Gusterson (2004, p. 59), “are sometimes able to penetrate the dominant discourse, opening up fissures and enabling the articulation of doubts and queries that might otherwise remain unvoiced.” His remarks apply as well to other forms of cinema.
14. This reputation is largely unearned (Doughty, 2005). Canadian prime ministers have frequently suspended fundamental rights under the infamous War Measures Act, and recently the Canadian intelligence services have handed over Arab-born citizens for interrogation and torture in Syria.
15. Every form of terrorism involves “rather conscious efforts to manipulate perceptions to promote certain interests at the expense of others. When people and events come to be regularly described in public as terrorists and terrorism, some government or other entity is succeeding in a war of words in which the opponent is promoting alternative designations such as ‘martyr’ or ‘liberation struggle’” (Turk, 2004, p 272).
16.It is perhaps not inconsequential that Al Jazeera is located in Doha, Qatar, twenty miles from the site of one of the biggest U.S. armed forces bases in the Middle East.
17.Bergen himself relates an intriguing narrative of possible premature intoxication surrounding 9-11. In late August 2001 Bergen acquired “a two-hour al-Qaeda propaganda videotape circulating around the Middle East that summer.” The tape suggested that bin Laden was planning an imminent attack on American targets. Bergen wrote to reporter John Burns at The New York Times about the tape, which by then was circulating in DVD format in clandestine Internet chat rooms. Burns’s story about the looming menace of Al-Qaeda “appeared on The New York Times Web site on September 9 under the headline, “‘On videotape, Bin Laden Charts a Violent Future.’ But strangely that was the only version of the story that ever appeared, and it was later expunged by the newspaper from the Web site archive.” Bergen laments that “the last best warning to America of what might be failed to see the light of day. (The Times would publish a story by Burns a day after 9/11 that referenced the bin Laden videotape; a piece that had few of the details of the original story and was, alas, too late to make a difference.)”
18.Huntington served as “counterinsurgency expert for the Johnson administration in Vietnam and later director of the Institute for Strategic Studies at Harvard University” (Ali, 2003, p. 273.)
19.My account of The Clash of Civilizations relies heavily on Gusterson’s (2004) critical analysis of the book.
Justin Raimondo
December 19, 2005
Who Are the War Criminals? Naming Names
Behind every war criminal is a criminal idea
by Justin Raimondo

Editorial note: What follows is the text of a speech delivered on Dec. 16, in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, at the 2005 Perdana Peace Forum.


QUOTE


The theme for this part of the program is "Crimes Against Peace, Crimes Against Humanity." We are discussing here the question of defining and dealing with war crimes. In any such discussion, however, we must start out by identifying who are the war criminals. We must, in short, name names.

I would remind you that only governments make war. Only governments have the resources to commit mass murder. Government is, by its very nature, a weapon of mass destruction. Governments from A to Z – from America to Zimbabwe – are potential instruments of brutal repression. Last night, as I surfed the Internet, I saw an aerial photo of a village that looked like the bombed-out remnants of a target in Iraq – it was, however, a photo of a village in Zimbabwe that had been bulldozed by the government that has displaced over 300,000 people. Let's be clear: we are talking about government officials as the prime war criminals. So let's start naming names.

Of course, everyone knows the name of the man most responsible for the invasion and conquest of Iraq, because he is the most powerful – and the most dangerous – man on earth. He is George W. Bush, commander in chief of America's military forces, the man who is even now declaring his defiance of the American public and growing congressional opposition to the war by declaring that we won't get out until "victory" – and I put that term in ironic quotes – is achieved.

Less known, but no less culpable, are the people who planned and agitated for this war over the course of a decade. In America, we have a name for these people: we call them neoconservatives. "Neocons" for short. This is to distinguish them from ordinary, run-of-the-mill conservatives – or libertarians, such as myself – who advocate limited government and are generally suspicious of if not downright opposed to such grandiose social-engineering projects as "nation-building." After the end of the Cold War, most conservatives moved to a position of opposing foreign meddling in most cases. It was the liberals who then became the big advocates of America pushing its weight around in the world, with the interventions in Haiti, Bosnia, Kosovo, and the bombing of Iraq, which continued throughout President Bill Clinton's reign.

When the Soviet empire imploded, most conservatives gave up the idea of America as the world's policeman – but not the neoconservatives. They had originally come from the Left, and, having acquired the most authoritarian and elitist tendencies of the Right, the neocons retained the worst of the socialist movement's messianic pretensions, especially in the realm of foreign policy. As for their extraordinary bloodthirstiness, a brief look at their history shows us it was always there. After all, the earliest of these refugees from the anti-Stalinist Left had huddled around the ruthless figure of Leon Trotsky, founder of the Red Army, later becoming the most relentless and militant opponents of the Kremlin. After some years, the second generation eventually found their way into the Democratic Party, where a good number of them – Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, Douglas Feith, Elliott Abrams – became aides to Sen. Henry M. "Scoop" Jackson, Democrat of Washington state. In Washington, D.C., these guys were known as the most radical advocates of a massive arms buildup and a strategy of rollback against the Soviet Union.

The war in Vietnam was their Thermopylae, in which they tried to hold off the gathered legions of the burgeoning antiwar movement – but without success. Outnumbered, and defeated at the polls, the neocons left the Democratic Party when George McGovern and his antiwar followers took the helm. They soon found a new home in the Republican Party, however, where they continued their long march to power.

Neoconservatism, which has been called a "persuasion" and not an ideology by Irving Kristol – one of the chief architects of the movement – has always stood for two major principles, and that is the rule by elites at home, and a foreign policy of perpetual intervention and conflict abroad. Over time, this "persuasion" – which started out as a primitive anti-Stalinism – became more elaborate, taking on the elitism and philosophical nihilism of the philosopher Leo Strauss – the philosopher of the so-called noble lie – as well as an enthusiasm for the state of Israel, and the U.S.-Israeli alliance, that often borders on the very edge of propriety, and sometimes crosses the line.

For example, in 1978, according to Stephen Green, a researcher very familiar with this subject, Wolfowitz was investigated for passing a classified document – on the proposed sale of U.S. weapons to an Arab government – to an official of the Israeli government. This was done through an intermediary who worked for the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), one of the most powerful lobbies in Washington. The investigation into the matter was eventually dropped, however, and Wolfowitz continued to work at the Arms Control and Disarmament Agency – where he opposed every effort at arms control and disarmament. Perle and Feith ran into similar problems, with similarly inconclusive results, and the neocons continued their quest for upward mobility in Washington's corridors of power.

This kind of activity continues to characterize the behavior of the neocons in government right up to the present day, with one difference: this time, the investigation was not dropped, as in the case of Larry Franklin, the top Iran specialist in the Pentagon, who was recently indicted for spying on behalf of Israel. He was caught red-handed turning over sensitive documents and other classified information to two officials of AIPAC, who then passed it on to the Israelis. Franklin and his co-conspirators are scheduled to stand trial in 2006.

With this exotic mix of ideological positions – pro-war, pro-Israel, and dedicated to the tradition of Strauss and Machiavelli, which holds that only a few men of unscrupulous methods and natural genius have the natural right to rule – the neocons worked their way into the Republican Party, infiltrated the U.S. government, and finally penetrated the top echelons of the foreign-policy establishment during the presidency of Ronald Reagan, when they captured the National Endowment for Democracy and the mid-to-lower reaches of the national security bureaucracy. By the time Reagan's second term rolled around, they had already established a significant beachhead – and assured themselves of a semi-permanent foothold in official Washington.

When the Cold War ended and their influence in government waned, they didn't disappear, but instead retrenched, setting up a network of think tanks, magazines, foundations, and political front groups, seizing effective control of the conservative movement in America. This was done by exercising a decisive influence over how that movement was funded – the big conservative foundations, which funded various projects, funneled many millions of dollars into their ventures, subsidized their followers, and pushed their ideas relentlessly, freezing out all opponents in the process. The result was a movement transformed, one that soon threw over its guiding principles – limited government, economic and personal liberty, and a foreign policy that puts America first – in favor of the neoconservative credo of big government at home and unrestrained militarism around the world.

They started so many magazines that whole forests of trees are now regularly sacrificed so that the Weekly Standard, the National Interest, First Things, National Review, the Claremont Review of Books, Commentary magazine, and the Murdoch chain of newspapers can agitate for war, a policy of relentless American expansionism, and "regime change" from sea to shining sea. The number of neocon thinktanks is staggering: the American Enterprise Institute, the Center for Security Policy, the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs, the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies, and at least half a dozen or so with the word "Democracy" figuring prominently in their names: the list goes on and on. Together they employ a veritable army of policy analysts, publicists, and propagandists who churn out a steady stream of arguments for increased arms expenditures and endless war – especially directed against Arab and Muslim peoples.

The neoconservatives languished during the post-Cold War era, all but running out of steam: in America, the appetite for foreign intervention was practically nil, and the Republicans, the neocons' chosen host of the moment, were reverting back to their traditional stance of a skeptical attitude toward foreign intervention. The neocons made limited headway during this period, at least on the surface: they did, however, begin to agitate for U.S. military action against Iraq, and in 1997 set up the Project for a New American Century (PNAC), headed by Weekly Standard editor William Kristol, which announced its goal to be the promotion of "American global leadership." In 1998, a letter sponsored by PNAC and signed by Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz, among others, called on then-President Bill Clinton to attack Iraq.

A series of similar letters, newspaper advertisements, and public statements followed, all in the same vein: the U.S., they demanded, must invade Iraq. The neocons also called, from the beginning, for a major U.S. military buildup, what they termed a "transformation" of the U.S. Army, Navy, and Air Force, effectively doubling present expenditures. As they sadly noted in a September 2000, policy paper, however, that probably wasn't going to happen quickly enough to suit them, "absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor."

A year later, they had their "catalyzing event" – and the neoconservatives were suddenly at the pinnacle of a wave that has begun to crest only recently. Their war agenda was ready and waiting for the panic, the irrationality, the blind anger that infused the American public in the wake of the biggest terrorist attack in our history – and the neocons moved quickly to take full advantage of their golden opportunity.

They had argued long and hard that the Middle East had to be transformed into a series of pliable "democracies," all essentially run from the U.S., in order to make life easier for Israel. Indeed, a group of neoconservatives, including Douglas Feith, Richard Perle, and David Wurmser, among others, authored a policy paper in 1996 for then Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, which called for regime change in Iraq as a way to humble the frontline state of Syria. The "democratic" transformation of the region was seen by these writers as a way for Israel to get out of its predicament and break through to becoming the dominant power in the region, free from any military or demographic threat.

In short, the plan to invade and conquer Iraq was already in place. After 9/11, the authors of this plan were free to start implementing it – and the neocons were well-placed to do it. *** Cheney, a PNAC alumni, was vice president. His chief of staff was I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, another signer of the 1998 PNAC letter. Wolfowitz was installed at the Department of Defense, along with Feith. Wurmser was in government, ending up in the office of the vice president. John R. Bolton, now our ambassador to the UN, Zalmay Khalilzad, currently the U.S. ambassador to Iraq: the list of strategically -placed members of PNAC holding high positions in the Bush administration is impressive.

What has happened to America since 9/11? This question is now being asked by the world's peoples, who fear the spectacle of the American giant going on an international rampage. A pretty good answer was given by the journalist Seymour Hersh, speaking at a conference of the American Civil Liberties Union, held on July 7 of this year:

"Okay, so here's what happens: a bunch of guys, eight or nine neoconservatives, cultists – not Charles Manson cultists, but cultists – get in.

"And it's not, with all due respect to Michael Moore, (his movie's fine) but it's not about oil, it's even not about Israel, it's about a utopia they have. It's about an idea they have. Not only about that democracy can be spread. In a sense I would say Paul Wolfowitz is the greatest Trotskyite of our times. He believes in permanent revolution. And in the Middle East, to begin with, needless to say.

"And so you have a bunch of people who have been, for 10 or 12 years, fantasizing, since the 1991 Gulf war, on the way to resolve problems. And of course there'll be beneficiaries, Israel would be a beneficiary, etc., etc., but the world in their eyes, this is a utopia.

"And so they got together this small group of cultists. And how did they do it? They did do it. They've taken the government over.

"And what's amazing to me – and what really is troubling – is how fragile our democracy is. Look what happened to us… They took the edge off the press, they also muzzled the bureaucracy, they muzzled the military, they muzzled the Congress. And it's an amazing feat. We're supposed to be a democratic society. And all those areas of our democracy bowed and scraped to this group of neocons."

Hersh is right: after 9/11, the neocons pulled off what was, in effect, a coup d'etat. Already implanted deep inside the U.S. government, they emerged, at this crucial moment, like the pod people in the movie Invasion of the Body Snatchers, and took over their host, commandeering American foreign policy and bypassing the traditional safeguards built into the system. They bypassed the generals, they bypassed the intelligence community, they lied to Congress, and they ginned up a war that had been in the making for a decade.

But Hersh is wrong about the supposed fragility of the American system of constitutional government: it isn't all that fragile, as it turns out. It's just very flexible. It has been bent very far in one direction, and is now in the process of returning to its original position. Today, the war is very obviously a gigantic and quite embarrassing failure. The neocons are in retreat. And not only are they in retreat, but they – or at least some of them – will likely wind up in jail.

On Oct. 28of this year, Patrick J. Fitzgerald. the special counsel appointed by the U.S. Justice Department, announced the indictment of I. Lewis Libby on five charges: one count of obstruction of justice, two counts of perjury, and two counts of making false statements. I won't go into all the specifics of the case here: suffice to say that the vice president's chief of staff faces as much as 30 years in jail. The cabal that lied America into war is facing not only exposure, but also legal prosecution, because they broke several laws in the process of luring us into the Iraqi quagmire – not the least of which was planting bogus "intelligence" about alleged "weapons of mass destruction," then retaliating against anyone in the government who dared dispute their dubious assertions.

If we look at the neoconservatives as a parasitic infestation, we can see that the American body politic is reacting as any healthy organism would: it is rejecting the invaders and expelling them. The American people now realize the war against Iraq was started under false pretenses, and they are wondering when we are going to get out. The president and his cronies have launched a propaganda counteroffensive, trying to convince people that all is well and that we ought to "stay the course" – to no effect. Americans have made up their minds, and the question now isn't will we withdraw, it is how and when we do it.

The war criminals have committed crimes against the Iraqi people and against other peoples of the Middle East, but they have also committed crimes against Americans – and that is what tripped them up in the end. The indictment of Libby is only the beginning: prosecutor Fitzgerald is already looking into other crimes committed by other top Bush administration officials. There are even rumors that Vice President *** Cheney is in Fitzgerald's sights.

Crime, as a popular American saying goes, does not pay. The criminals are eventually caught, exposed – and made to pay the price. The only question is how much damage they can do in the interim.

The damage to Iraq, and to the volatile situation in the Middle East, is considerable. We won't know for many years how many Iraqis died – the United States military, while it keeps a count of its own war dead, doesn't bother counting dead Iraqis. We don't know the extent of the bombing – except that it is being kept a secret. In Vietnam, they used to announce the number of bombing sorties every day: in Iraq, they don't talk about these bombing raids. As Seymour Hersh has reported, however, the air war is going to be increased in intensity, as American troops retreat to safer ground: that will increase the number of Iraqi casualties exponentially. We can count on two, three, many Fallujahs.

What we are facing is a conspiracy against humanity, a cabal motivated by an idea that is criminal in itself, and which consists of the assertion that the United States must run the world – for "our own good," of course. But that is what every tyrant and would-be conqueror has asserted in the past: that they and only they have the answer to the world's problems. The Soviets believed that, and so did the British, the Germans, and the French – from Napoleon to Paul Wolfowitz, the rationale is always the same. And it always ends in disaster.


http://antiwar.org/justin/?articleid=8241
adoucette
QUOTE (Foxx+Dec 19 2005, 02:45 AM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 18 2005, 10:37 PM)
QUOTE (Foxx+)
Ahhhh yes.... I was wondering when you were going to find that. Thanks for bringing it up. Now, why don't you tell us how those jet-fuel fumes got there?


Easy, not ALL the kerosene would have burned, and then residual burning kerosene liquid, smells like, well Kerosene.

You think I have to dance, this does away with the idea there were high explosives set off in the basement.

Arthur

Pfffffffftttttt....

Heh

Ehhh, buddy if you think your nonsense has been purchased hook line and sinker, by anyone other than Schneibster & other apologists, I beg to differ.

I have yet to see you refute anything here.

However, if you feel you have accomplished your job, just go back to the office and tell them your finished and you're going home. biggrin.gif

The simple statement that..."not ALL the kerosene would have burned" just doesn't wash for me. Sorry, I'm not in the habit of buying bridges from 'strangers' - and you are getting 'stranger' by the day. tongue.gif

If it has been 'atomized' in the particular narrow range that you apologists suggest, then it would have ALL been incinerated in this magical 'thermobarbic bomb' you guys have been trying to sell.

Are you now changing your story... "it wasn't really a thermobarbic fuel-air explosion... it was ahhh.. er... only a 'partial' thermobarbic fuel-air explosion... only part of the fumes exploded, leaving some of the fumes NOT consumed in this all-consuming fuel-air explosion."

What a crock !

Where's the reference source that says... in a thermobarbic explosion only a certain percentage of the atomized fuel is ignited leaving some 'left over'. Not to mention that I haven't bought this thermobarbic nonsense you're promoting in the first place.

If it 'works' for you, feel satisfied, and go back to the office with a smile on your face and a clear concience; but you sure haven't provided any 'proof' to support this contention at all (as far as I am concerned).

I've been busy again today so I'll have to go back to your other nonsensical sophistry regarding Pecoraros statements.

Besides, you seem to have forgotten the infallible definition provided by pope Schneibster which refutes your increasingly circular arguements.

Slippery as eels these shills... you just can't pin them down to stick with one view long enough to refute that view.

A Fuel Air Bomb would be designed to burn ALMOST all of the fuel, but even then it would be unlikely to burn ALL of it.

The WTC was not a FIB, it just ACTED like one. So since it was created by random events, it is highly unlikely that all the kerosene that came down all the shafts got burnt. And, if you've ever lighted a barbeque you would know, that even in the open air, not all the kerosene burns cleanly, leaving a kerosene smell in the air.

So, yes one could get a large volume of air/kerosene mixture that ignites creating a fire bomb effect and still have unburned kerosene left.

As far as the color of the smoke, dust, gypsum particles etc would help create a white smoke, but there could be any number of reasons, not knowing exactly what was in the path of the blast prevents accurate analysis.

But you totally skipped over the point that this guy does not HEAR any subterranian blast, thus no HIGH EXPLOSIVE DEVICES GOING OFF IN THE BASEMENT.

He DOES smell kerosene though, so we now KNOW it made it to the sub-basement.

One other point, with all the posts going on about how many elevators went from the basement to the top, my guess is they ALL did. As per the design docs, the elevators were STACKED. So best guess is the elevator SHAFT was continuous, even though the elevators were stacked within them and only serviced certain floors. Think of it this way, what would be the OBVIOUS way of installing/servicing them, but allowing them to be hoisted up a COMMON shaft.

Arthur

adoucette
QUOTE (Foxx+Dec 19 2005, 07:13 AM)
Heh... Pecoraro referred to the parkling garage 'walls' (which were steel re-inforced concrete} as being 'gone' (or turned to rubble). Yes? or NO?

It is not a 'wonder' that explosions in the basement levels would not IMMEDIATLY lead to 'Global Collapse'.

Did this occur in the bombing of '93 ?

NO ...

(so you don't know what you are talking about structurally).

WHY DIDN'T The towers succumb to Total Global Disproportionate Progressive Collapse in '93 ?

Hey... the 'terrorists' took out some major structural elements in '93... Why didn't the towers 'collapse' then???

User posted image


Well, for a LOT of reasons, but mainly that the ONE place that would be the most difficult to cut supporting columns would be the basement, since this is where they are the most massive, but besides that, as shown in the diagram, and (as we've seen from the NIST diagrams) the damage was nowhere near the central support columns of the Tower.

Arthur
yesitdid
QUOTE (stallion4+Dec 18 2005, 04:39 AM)
QUOTE (yesitdid+)
stallion,

I have not ignored those descriptions. They describe nothing that could not be expected to be observed when the building collapsed.

If you honestly believe what you're posting is the truth, then I respect that. I don't agree with it, but I respect your opinion - if you honestly believe what you are posting here is truth.
QUOTE (yesitdid+)
One of your quotes goes on to state that he thought it could have been electrical explosions that produced the flashes(why did you ignore that?)

QUOTE

"Commissioner Stephen Gregory of the Bureau of Communications"

I don't know if that means anything. I mean, I equate it to the building cowing(sic) down and pushing things down, it could have been electrical explosions


Indeed when the upper section came down it would have caused an incredible shaking in the rest of the building not unlike an earthquake. This would have produced an lot of noise and electrical flashes as wires severed and fixtures came down.
That terrific boom as the collapse started,,,, just what sound do you suppose the upper section hitting the next floors would make? What? a hissing noise? a musical note? what?

This is the quote I posted:

    Stephen Gregory , Assistant Commissioner (F.D.N.Y.) flashes, explosions p 14

    ...I thought that when I looked in the direction of the Trade Center before it came down, before No. 2 came down, that I saw low-level flashes. In my conversation with Lieutenant Evangelista, never mentioning this to him, he questioned me and asked me if I saw low-level flashes in front of the building, and I agreed with him because I thought -- at that time I didn't know what it was. I mean, it could have been as a result of the building collapsing, things exploding, but I saw a flash flash flash and then it looked like the building came down.


    Q. Was that on the lower level of the building or up where the fire was?
    A. No, the lower level of the building. You know like when they demolish a building, how when they blow up a building, when it falls down? That's what I thought I saw. And I didn't broach the topic to him, but he asked me. He said I don't know if I'm crazy,


The entire quote can be read here: http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyreg...ory_Stephen.txt

YID, you seem to be implying that I 'left out' a particular section of the statement for devious reasons. The truth is; the entire quote is quite long and if I were to post ALL of the statements in their entirety, they would fill up several pages of this thread.

The statement from Gregory that I did post includes this quote from him;"it could have been as a result of the building collapsing, things exploding"

So if I was actually trying to be devious, I would have omitted that section too, no? And if I really didn't want folks to read the entire statements, I wouldn't provide links for them to click on so they can read the entire statements for themselves, no?

The Stephen Gregory statement that I posted a few pages back is actually in two sections. I'm pretty sure that is the only instance in that post that I posted a statement from the same person in two separate sections. If there is still confusion about his statement, here it is in its entirety as it appears on The New York Times website:

    Q. Do you recall at any time, particularly when you were on West Street, any companies whose vehicles may have been parked near where you were?

    A. No. I know I was with an officer from Ladder 146, a Lieutenant Evangelista, who ultimately called me up a couple of days later just to find out how I was. We both for whatever reason -- again, I don't know how valid this is with everything that was going on at that particular point in time, but for some reason I thought that when I looked in the direction of the Trade Center before it came down, before No. 2 came down, that I saw low-leve] flashes. In my conversation with Lieutenant Evangelista, never mentioning this to him, he questioned me and asked me if I saw low-level flashes in front of the building, and I agreed with him because I thought -- at that time I didn't know what it was. I mean, it could have been as a result of the building collapsing, things exploding, but I saw a flash flash flash and then it looked like the building came down.

    Q. Was that on the lower level of the building or up where the fire was?

    A. No, the lower level of the building. You know like when they demolish a building, how when they blow up a building, when it falls down? That's what I thought I saw. And I didn't broach the topic to him, but he asked me. He said I don't know if I'm crazy, but I just wanted to ask you because you were standing right next to me. He said did you see anything by the building? And I said what do you mean by see anything? He said did yc.u see any flashes? I said, yes, well, I thought it was just me. He said no, I saw them, too.

    I don't know if that means anything. I mean, I equate it to the building cowing down and pushing things down, it could have been electrical explosions, it could have been whatever. But it's just strange that two people sort of say the same thing and neither one of us talked to each other about it. I mean, I don't know this guy from a hole in the wall. I was just standing next to him. i never met the man before in my lite. He knew who was I guess by my name on my coat and he called me up, you know, how are you doing? How's everything? And, oh, by the way did you... It was just a little strange.

    Q. On the television pictures it appeared as well, before the first collapse, that there was an explosion up on the upper floors.

    A. I know about the explosion on the upper floors. This was like eye level. I didn't have to go like this. Because I was looking this way. I'm not going to say it was on the first floor or the second floor, but somewhere in that area I saw to me what appeared to be flashes. I don't know how far down this was already. I mean, we had heard the noise but, you know, I don't know.


http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyreg...ory_Stephen.txt

If anyone was/is being devious, it's the 9/11 cOmmission for omitting ALL of the statements that I posted. If I'm wrong about that, YID, please post an instance where the cOmmission included at least one of those statements in their final report.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE

"Commissioner Stephen Gregory of the Bureau of Communications"

I don't know if that means anything. I mean, I equate it to the building cowing(sic) down and pushing things down, it could have been electrical explosions


Indeed when the upper section came down it would have caused an incredible shaking in the rest of the building not unlike an earthquake. This would have produced an lot of noise and electrical flashes as wires severed and fixtures came down.
That terrific boom as the collapse started,,,, just what sound do you suppose the upper section hitting the next floors would make? What? a hissing noise? a musical note? what?

This is the quote I posted:

    Stephen Gregory , Assistant Commissioner (F.D.N.Y.) flashes, explosions p 14

    ...I thought that when I looked in the direction of the Trade Center before it came down, before No. 2 came down, that I saw low-level flashes. In my conversation with Lieutenant Evangelista, never mentioning this to him, he questioned me and asked me if I saw low-level flashes in front of the building, and I agreed with him because I thought -- at that time I didn't know what it was. I mean, it could have been as a result of the building collapsing, things exploding, but I saw a flash flash flash and then it looked like the building came down.


    Q. Was that on the lower level of the building or up where the fire was?
    A. No, the lower level of the building. You know like when they demolish a building, how when they blow up a building, when it falls down? That's what I thought I saw. And I didn't broach the topic to him, but he asked me. He said I don't know if I'm crazy,


The entire quote can be read here: http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyreg...ory_Stephen.txt

YID, you seem to be implying that I 'left out' a particular section of the statement for devious reasons. The truth is; the entire quote is quite long and if I were to post ALL of the statements in their entirety, they would fill up several pages of this thread.

The statement from Gregory that I did post includes this quote from him;"it could have been as a result of the building collapsing, things exploding"

So if I was actually trying to be devious, I would have omitted that section too, no? And if I really didn't want folks to read the entire statements, I wouldn't provide links for them to click on so they can read the entire statements for themselves, no?

The Stephen Gregory statement that I posted a few pages back is actually in two sections. I'm pretty sure that is the only instance in that post that I posted a statement from the same person in two separate sections. If there is still confusion about his statement, here it is in its entirety as it appears on The New York Times website:

    Q. Do you recall at any time, particularly when you were on West Street, any companies whose vehicles may have been parked near where you were?

    A. No. I know I was with an officer from Ladder 146, a Lieutenant Evangelista, who ultimately called me up a couple of days later just to find out how I was. We both for whatever reason -- again, I don't know how valid this is with everything that was going on at that particular point in time, but for some reason I thought that when I looked in the direction of the Trade Center before it came down, before No. 2 came down, that I saw low-leve] flashes. In my conversation with Lieutenant Evangelista, never mentioning this to him, he questioned me and asked me if I saw low-level flashes in front of the building, and I agreed with him because I thought -- at that time I didn't know what it was. I mean, it could have been as a result of the building collapsing, things exploding, but I saw a flash flash flash and then it looked like the building came down.

    Q. Was that on the lower level of the building or up where the fire was?

    A. No, the lower level of the building. You know like when they demolish a building, how when they blow up a building, when it falls down? That's what I thought I saw. And I didn't broach the topic to him, but he asked me. He said I don't know if I'm crazy, but I just wanted to ask you because you were standing right next to me. He said did you see anything by the building? And I said what do you mean by see anything? He said did yc.u see any flashes? I said, yes, well, I thought it was just me. He said no, I saw them, too.

    I don't know if that means anything. I mean, I equate it to the building cowing down and pushing things down, it could have been electrical explosions, it could have been whatever. But it's just strange that two people sort of say the same thing and neither one of us talked to each other about it. I mean, I don't know this guy from a hole in the wall. I was just standing next to him. i never met the man before in my lite. He knew who was I guess by my name on my coat and he called me up, you know, how are you doing? How's everything? And, oh, by the way did you... It was just a little strange.

    Q. On the television pictures it appeared as well, before the first collapse, that there was an explosion up on the upper floors.

    A. I know about the explosion on the upper floors. This was like eye level. I didn't have to go like this. Because I was looking this way. I'm not going to say it was on the first floor or the second floor, but somewhere in that area I saw to me what appeared to be flashes. I don't know how far down this was already. I mean, we had heard the noise but, you know, I don't know.


http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyreg...ory_Stephen.txt

If anyone was/is being devious, it's the 9/11 cOmmission for omitting ALL of the statements that I posted. If I'm wrong about that, YID, please post an instance where the cOmmission included at least one of those statements in their final report.

So, stallion, I have asked a few questions that have received absolutely no response. Care to give them a try?


Sure, why not?
QUOTE (yesitdid+)
1)Given that Rodriguez was in the basement at the time of the impacts and given that basements do not have windows from which Mr.Rodriguez could see the aircraft hit the tower, how is it that he has determined that the second loud noise he heard/felt was the aircraft impact. Note that they occurred one right after the other.

He's convinced that the explosions were two seperate unrelated events. I have no reason to doubt him. Especially after reading the corroborating reports of bombs planted in the buildings.

If Rodriguez was the only person that was talking about a 9-11 conspiracy, I might be a little more hesitant to believe him. But the fact that the buildings (1, 2, and 7) all visually look like they were 'brought down' by explosives - and the fact that several onsite witnesses have stated that the buildings resembled controlled demolition - and the fact that there were news reports of bombs planted in the buildings and reports of a suspicious device being found at the scene leads me to believe that the official explanation given for why those buildings failed is total BS.
QUOTE (yesitdid+)
2) Boyle states more than once that the firefighters were very wary of entering WTC7. He states that there were creaking noises being heard, that it did not look good and even was out of plumb. Why then is it a contention of some that WTC 7 was in no danger of collapse when right from the beginning , after WTC 1 collapsed, that the firefighters already had grave concerns about entering the building?

I would think that after two buildings at the World Trade Center had just fallen down, there was probably some concern that other buildings at the complex might fall down too. And how many people are we talking about here? One? Two? Three? Four? YID, please post links to all the references from people that say they believe that WTC 7 was going to "collapse" based on their own observation of the building.

I've seen several reports from people saying they heard that the building might "collapse", but I haven't seen that many reports from people that actually observed the building with their own eyes and ears. For example; Thomas Franklin wrote that he was told WTC 7 "was ready to fall" at 4:45 pm.. The building is said to have fallen shortly after 5 pm.. Are we supposed to believe that whoever told Franklin that the building "was ready to fall", approximately 20-30 minutes before it did, just made a lucky guess?

And why haven't we seen photographs of WTC 7's south face? I've seen some photos of a damaged corner, but no photos of the alleged 25-percent of the building's depth scooped out of the south face of WTC 7, which is said to have measured 20-storeys high. And if the story of the damage to the building is true, why did the building fall straight down?

I'm not denying that there was some damage to WTC 7's south face caused by falling debris, but was it enough to cause it to fall almost symmetrically straight down into its own footprint in less than 7 seconds?

If it was this easy to cause buildings to fall straight down into their own footprint, why don't demolition companies simply set a few fires in buildings and damage one side of it with a wrecking ball - instead of spending weeks prepping a building for controlled demolition with expensive explosives to do the job?

Have a look at this video clip of WTC 7 falling down:

http://terrorize.dk/911/wtc7dem2/911.wtc.7...tion.window.wmv

If you watch it closely, you will notice that the person that shot this video seems to not know which building is about to fall down, but when this person figures out that it's WTC 7, they immediately zoom their camera in on the building and then it falls down. My question is; how did this person know when to precisely zoom their camera in on that building BEFORE it fell down? My guess is that the person filming heard explosions coming from WTC 7 and that is why they zoomed their camera in on the building just before it fell.

Whoever shot this video would be able to answer that question, no? So where is this person? Has anyone tried to contact them about this video? If so, where is their statement? I think it's safe to say that it's not in the 9/11 cOmmission's report. Did the cOmmission even bother to question this person? Hmmm?

Wouldn't it be best if EVERYTHING that happened on that day was investigated further? Maybe then we'd have more (truthful) answers about what really happened on that day, no?

If there is a possibility that bombs were planted in those buildings, which I believe there is, don't you, YID, think that EVERYTHING that occurred on 9/11 - the months leading up to 9-11 and the months following the 9-11 event, should be carefully examined - to make sure that the correct individuals responsible for the event are punished for their crime? I personally have not seen enough evidence to convince me that it's the people that the US government (and other governments) are blaming for the "attack".
QUOTE (yesitdid+)
3) It has been pointed out that the Secret Service and other gov't agencies had large offices in the WTc buildings. How does this relate to the idea that gov't caused the attacks?

If I'm correct that there is more to the story about who really perpetrated 9-11, I don't find it too far-fetched that the ones who perpetrated it would 'blow up' something of their own to use as a pretext for accomplishing their ultimate goal. This is known as Problem-Reaction-Solution. By creating the problem, it causes a reaction (that wouldn't have existed before the problem) allowing the ones who created the problem to offer the solution (which was planned before the problem was created). This scenario makes the most sense to me. The more power someone has would increase their chances of 'getting away' with such a plan. And we know for a fact that plans like this have existed before 9-11 (see Operation Northwoods), so no I don't think that it's too far-fetched to believe that that's what may have happened.

With all of that said, I don't believe that the majority of people working within the US government were 'in on it'. That would be foolish for anyone to think that. It's my belief that most of them are not corrupt, but have been duped by a small number of very powerful and corrupt individuals, IMHO of course.

Yes, I truly believe what I post. Thank you for at least acknowledging that someone would. That is a damn sight better than those who simply dismiss me and others as gov't "shills".

If you did not include Gregory's quote about electrical causes of the flashes simply to keep the size of the post down I can accept that. I only react as I did since in all quotes of Gregory on 9/11 sites that do not believe the official history that part of his statement always seems to be missing. You may not have omitted it on perfectly reasonable grounds but I feel that others do it deliberately because it doing so makes his statements seem more damning.

Now as for Rodriguez, you may see no reason to doubt his attribution of the second loud noise as the aircraft impact I have to disagree. He simply has no way to know that. I can understand that he heard the first sound from below but I can also understand a perfectly good reason for that(as explained in a previous post). There simply are NO corroborating reports of planted bombs. There are some who say they thought there were bombs going off and again this is due to loud noises they heard. The only witness testimony that actually relates seeing any explosion are those who saw fireballs exiting the elevators. That too has another explanation.

Regarding the condition of WTC7 we have Boyle's statement that the building looked dangerous and we also have Silverstein's statement that the Fire Chief was telling him that the building was too dangerous for the firefighters to be in. That's two, please find two authoritative eyewitnesses that state the building was in good shape. You say Franklin was told that the building was "ready to fall" at 4:45 and find it suspicious that it did so within the next half hour but Boyle is essentially saying they were afraid of it collapsing well before noon, easily 5 hours before the collapse. If those "creaking" noises that Boyle recounts were increasing throughout the day then by 4:45 it would be getting more and more likely that it would indeed collapse. If one gets a report that it is "ready to fall" and it actually does fall how long would you expect it to do so in order not to be suspicious? Personally if someone was telling me that and it fell before they finished telling me about it I would not find it suspicious at all. The person just told me that it was in bad enough shape to fall and it was expected to do so.

The south face of WTC 7 was obscured by the smoke and dust, very few aircraft were in the air after the towers collapsed and in order to photograph the south face one would have to be on the pile of WTC 1 rubble, on top of WTC 5(itself in danger of collapse) or south of the WTC complex which would put you a long ways off from WTC7 looking through the dust and smoke from that area. Most of the population of south Manhattan was leaving the area, it would have been somewhat odd to look around that part of the city , at that time of day and note that there were so few people in the area. Basically those who did not have a reason to be there (such as emergency services), weren't. It is then no surprise that there is a lack of photos of the south face of WTC 7.

That 7 second collapse time for WTC 7. Is that from the time that the east penthouse starts sinking or starting later?

Explosions again (your reference to the videographer who shot the collapse of #7), or again a loud noise? #7 was on fire, even if the fire is not readily obvious to the camera person they would know that it is on fire since reports that it was were widely spoken of in the media. The media had also stated that it was in danger of collapse so it is of no significance that at least a few people were taking video of that building many hours after the other collapses. Did the Commission interview the person who shot the video? Who knows, perhaps , but what is that person going to say, "I heard that #7 was on fire and that it might fall too and there were sounds coming from that direction before it collapsed". What relevance would this have for the Commission? Do they need a statement from every single person in Manhattan at 5 PM?

Interviewing people who were present in Manhattan when the building collapsed is not going to give you any evidence that bombs were used to destroy #7. Until any evidence comes out that explosives were in fact involved, and I have seen none, I will continue to accept that it was falling debris and fire that brought this building down.

As for the building's "almost symmetrical" fall into its own footprint, well it didn't did it. It fell and did do damage to nearby buildings. If this was a supposed demolition designed to do the least damage to nearby buildings then the best bet would have been to have it fall more towards the south to WTC 5 which was a write off anyway. Besides, we are told by some, the whole idea was to completely demolish only WTC buildings so why care about #5. Instead the debris from # 7 actually went slightly northwards.

Further we are supposed to believe that the designers of all of these collapses wanted to limit the damage to WTC structures as much as possible. Why the altruism from people who did not care if thousands of humans died?

Gov't blowing up its own offices to garner a wished for reaction. There might be some merit to this but the Pentagon itself was already attacked, there were gov't offices in other WTC buildings too, so demolishing WTC 7 for this purpose is overkill as far as this goes. Attacking yourself to elicit a reaction only goes so far.

adoucette
QUOTE
Gov't blowing up its own offices to garner a wished for reaction. There might be some merit to this but the Pentagon itself was already attacked, there were gov't offices in other WTC buildings too, so demolishing WTC 7 for this purpose is overkill as far as this goes. Attacking yourself to elicit a reaction only goes so far.


Which has been a key point all along.

Had the buildings stood, would the reaction be different?

I doubt it.

Putting in HE and installing the many hundreds, if not thousands of explosives would be a vastly complex process, with MANY opportunities for detection both before and after, not to mention increasing the number of people who would be "in on it" to the point that keeping them all silent would be most difficult. As is often said, two people can keep a secret if one of them is dead. You'd have many dozens of people keeping this secret to their grave.

The fact is a CD of the towers is all downside for a conspirator. So the obvious question is, if they are smart enough to pull this off, then why would they be so foolish to plant HE in three buildings?

What would have happened if the second hijacked plane had crashed, or the hijackers got stopped at security? You don't think the explosives would be found?

What would have happened if only a little debris had hit WTC 7 (say WTC 1 toppled to the South?), and the firefighters could put it out, again, "gee, wonder what all these HE are doing here?" The sophisticated operation needed to plant HE would be most difficult to pin on foriegn agents.

So:

After all these posts, not one conclusive piece of evidence has been shown that the towers did not fall due to the plane impact and subsequent fires.

Not one conclusive piece of evidence has been shown that HE were detonated in any of the buildings.

You have come up with a long list of things that could possibly support your theory, unfortunately (for you) they all seem to have more mundane explanations.

I now expect a rant about how anyone with any sense would SEE that it was OBVIOUSLY a CD and the official story is a "fairy tale" and that I'm a "shill" etc etc, along with a post or two showing how America is an imperialist nation forcing its will on the world and run by a small bunch of NeoCons.

Yada Yada Yada.

What I'm pretty certain of though is that I won't see anyone post any actual EVIDENCE that this was in fact a CD.

Arthur
yesitdid
QUOTE
Sophistry again. Don't put words in MY MOUTH, YID.


Show me where I did that?

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Sophistry again. Don't put words in MY MOUTH, YID.


Show me where I did that?

Let's hear your analysis... (interpretation)... of what Pecoraro 'meant' when he used the hyperbole 'GONE'?


Gee, you are the one ascribing to the word "gone" the most extreme of meanings and yet you then go on to state that Pecoraro is speaking in hyperbole. So which is it then, is "gone" hyperbole, an exaggeration or does he mean "gone" in the most extreme, as in "reduced to unrecognizable pieces"?

This is not putting words into your mouth Foxx. I am asking that you clarify the words you are using.

QUOTE
I feel quite certain that 'magical muslims' did not survive the impact... (calmy walking out of the wreckage to join other evacuees so they could turn up ALIVE in other parts of the world) and stole the 50 ton press from the WTC machine shop on their way out.
What is your view regarding what Pecoraro meant when he said it was "gone".

Now who is "prone to hyperbole"?

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
I feel quite certain that 'magical muslims' did not survive the impact... (calmy walking out of the wreckage to join other evacuees so they could turn up ALIVE in other parts of the world) and stole the 50 ton press from the WTC machine shop on their way out.
What is your view regarding what Pecoraro meant when he said it was "gone".

Now who is "prone to hyperbole"?

It seems obvious to me, if you read ALL of Pecoraros 'testimony' he was partial to hyperbole of the moment.

I don't think any of us believes that this press just 'disappeared' into thin air. It wasn't 'GONE'.

It just wasn't there in the same configuration that it had previously been.


look at that we agree on something. Doesn't that warm your heart at Christmas?

QUOTE
As he said the whole machine shop had 'turned to rubble'

Did it just 'fall over' in this magical thermobarbic blast?


No, it could have been moved and covered by other "rubble". I don't know, but somehow you do know that it was "blown to pieces".

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
As he said the whole machine shop had 'turned to rubble'

Did it just 'fall over' in this magical thermobarbic blast?


No, it could have been moved and covered by other "rubble". I don't know, but somehow you do know that it was "blown to pieces".

No one seems to be 'picking-up' on the part of his testimony that the lingering smoke was WHITE.

Do we have any reference sources which say that "after a fuel-air explosion, the leftover smoke is WHITE?


Well it has been suggested after Arthur's post that the white smoke would be thermite. Hmmm, if it was thermite then it also wasn't high explosive and the it should not have turned anything to rubble.

Once again we see that analogy is lost on you Foxx. As I stated before I expected you would now be referring to the fuel explosion as a thermobaric bomb. I believe that any reasonable person knows that we are stating that the fuel explosion would resemble a thermobaric bomb but that there would be obvious differences.

As for the smell of kerosene, hang out at an airport for a while on the tarmac side of the terminal and one thing you will notice is the smell of kerosene when aircraft power up as they leave the terminal. If an efficient engine such as is on those aircraft can produce such a smell from the burning of what is essentially kerosene it is of no great wonder that after an explosion of that same fuel one would smell kerosene. Now please explain why thermite or a high explosive would give off a smell of kerosene or is this smell due to the kerosene that was spilled and ignited 1000 feet above where Pecararo was? If it is the later then please explain how it got down to the basement levels so fast from outside the building.
yesitdid
QUOTE (Foxx+Dec 18 2005, 04:47 AM)
QUOTE
More importantly, you posted numerous times about a "50 ton hydraulic press" being "just gone", now this is a physics board, and its not likely that everyone reading this would know that that description is the amount of force it can apply and not the weight of the unit.


Well, .... EXCUSE MEEEE !!!!

I had no problem with 'misinterpreting such words as posted by Pecararo'.

As I work around this equipment I automatically understood what Pecararo meant by 50 ton press.

Sorry, that I forgot (or didn't take into account) that this wasn't 'common knowledge' in the empirical experience of others, which could confuse the likes of travelling salesmen, and computer programmers, and other 'office workers'.

I was scratching my head when the YID tried to make a point that '50 ton press' didn't mean it 'weighed' 50 tonnes.

From my point of view, this was 'common knowledge'. I have never implied that the press weighed 50 tonnes.


Foxx, you have gone on and on about NIST trying to pass things off with their diagrams by supposedly showing the columns as being tiny when in fact the written descriptions of the columns in the same reports are accurate. Oh, NIST is trying to mislead the general public.

Now, when it is pointed out to the general public that a 50 ton press does not weigh 50 tons you calim that the general public should know this. No, you were not attempting to just let anyone think , "wow the explosion moved a 50 ton object".

You really are a hypocrite.
yesitdid
QUOTE (Foxx+Dec 18 2005, 06:01 AM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 18 2005, 05:31 AM)


Who was duped?

Were the scientists at NIST in on it?

How about those at FEMA?

How many people would have to be in on it to plant explosives in sufficient quantities in the three World Trade Center buildings, not to mention the wiring of them together so they could go off in the proper sequence?

How many people would have to be in on it to suppress evidence of said bombs?

What about the actual hijackings? Were "they" in on that too?

Were members of NORAD in on it?

Were members of the FAA in on it?

Were the firefighters at WTC 7 in on it?

Was Silverstein in on it?

Arthur

Sad ... The last gasps for air from a drowning man.

The gasping is from one who, though asked the question may times, will not venture to comment on how many people would have to either be "in on it" or would be able to realize after the fact that they had unknowingly been a part of "it".
yesitdid
QUOTE (Foxx+Dec 18 2005, 09:58 PM)

Home-Depot toy... biggrin.gif

user posted image

Heh... notice the hand pump & hand crank - premium quality stuff (for your home-shop).

I note you dropped the Canadian Tire reference since our American posters here may well have never even heard of that chain.

However I searched the Home Depot online site and find no list for a hydraulic press there.

More hyperbole Foxx? ph34r.gif
yesitdid
QUOTE (new tone+Dec 19 2005, 06:09 AM)
you know, you're like the second guy in two days to tell me i might be right, and there IS a gun pointed at my head.

i've known that for four yrs., now. it was kinda scary at first, but i've learned to accept the inevitability of death. it's how you live that counts.

If this is affecting your relations with friends and family I suggest finding professional assistance. wink.gif

The fall of 20 stories of building is NOT going to sound like breaking rocks or clanging steel. I have been 10 feet away from a 50 pound metal tool being accidentally dropped from 15 feet up. It made a booming noise when it hit the ground(asphalt) , yes there was a metallic sound mixed in there as well. An impact that is millions of times greater would IMHO also make a booming sound.
yesitdid
QUOTE (Foxx+Dec 19 2005, 07:13 AM)
QUOTE
Originally posted by YID
You then PUT words into Pecarro's mouth just like you did with Boyle.
He said "gone" but meant "shattered", he said "walls" but meant "concrete walls". If there were such quantities of high explosives in the basement such as would shatter a steel hydralic press and shatter interior concrete walls, high explosives designed primarily to sever or weaken the core columns, then it is quite the wonder that the building did not topple immediately or at the very least suffer the same damage as seen by the first WTC bombing in which the parking garage floors were broken. Odd also that sucha high explosive did not fill both towers with smoke(oh no, you already answered that question didn't you? please refresh my memory as to why both tower lobbies did not fill with smoke.)

Heh... Pecoraro referred to the parkling garage 'walls' (which were steel re-inforced concrete} as being 'gone' (or turned to rubble). Yes? or NO?

It is not a 'wonder' that explosions in the basement levels would not IMMEDIATLY lead to 'Global Collapse'.

Did this occur in the bombing of '93 ?

NO ...

(so you don't know what you are talking about structurally).

WHY DIDN'T The towers succumb to Total Global Disproportionate Progressive Collapse in '93 ?

Hey... the 'terrorists' took out some major structural elements in '93... Why didn't the towers 'collapse' then???

User posted image

http://www.hpac.com/microsites/hsb/brocine...erf_9402.htm#f1

Pecararo does not specify what walls he is refering to. You ascribe his words to concrete supporting walls when he could just as easily been refering to gryprock dividers. I will not ascribe his words to anything in particular if you won't.
I know that the 93 bombing did destroy floors and walls in the underground structures of the building but you are stating that in this case the destruction that Pecararo is describing is adjunct to the real purpose of this explosive, damaging or severing the main core columns(or have you abandoned that idea, sometimes hard to keep up with your changing story). This means that such an explosion is necessarily much greater than the explosion of the truck bomb.

adoucette
QUOTE (Foxx+)
As I work around this equipment I automatically understood what Pecararo meant by 50 ton press.


As the posts have shown, you DID NOT automatically understand what Pecararo meant, since its been clearly shown that the "50 ton" label does not actually describe the device. While his use in the quote is legit, since he was referring to a specific press, your repeatedly using the "50 ton" label as a qualifier in all of your subsequent posts is simply disinformation.

Had I (or someone else) NOT posted a picture of my 400 lb. "50 ton toy", would you have ever cleared up the misconception?

I think not.

Not dissimilar to your reference to a 2500 ton chilling unit.

laugh.gif

Foxx, you are appearing more and more desperate to hold your falling tower of cards together.

Come on now, after all this time studying this, and even taking the time to put up your own web site, I'd have thought you might have at least ONE piece of ACTUAL evidence to support your theory.

What are you waiting for?

Come on, if you've got it, show it.

Arthur
yesitdid
QUOTE (Guest+Dec 19 2005, 07:23 AM)


if freefall in a vacuum is 9.22 seconds for the towers, might we remember that they didn't fall in a vacuum?  one acre of floor space is a lot of area for air to buck up against.  never mind the welds and bolts, air alone would slow the collapse of the buildings, much the same as it slows the fall of anything that has surface area.

and, with that in mind, why didn't these towers fall down a long time ago?  there was nothing but air holding them up, apparently.

If an object is allowed to fall on Earth it accelerates in obedience to Newton's formula
a=F/m. But this will happen only until the force due to air resistance equals that of gravity. The drag force is (Cd*rho*A*V^2 )/2
Cd= coefficient of drag
rho=density of air
V=velocity
A=area in the plane perpendicular to the direction of travel

So when ma=(Cd*rho*A*V^2)/2 the object will be at terminal velocity. V at the outset will be zero and will increase with time. We can regard mass and area as constant. Therefore velocity will have to get quite large before the right side of the equation approachs the value of the left side of the equation for a if there is a high value of m. The velocity will be dependant on the distance fallen.

We can see that heavier objects will have a larger terminal velocity than ones with the same area but lighter and therfore take longer to reach that terminal velocity than lighter objects of the same dimensions.

The force due to air resistance would be minimal compared to the force due to gravity and would not slow such massive objects appreciably over a distance of only 1300 feet.
commondreamer
Powerhouse Collection of 9-11 Controlled Demolition Quotes[SIZE=7]

From THE NEW YORK TIMES:

From THE NEW YORK TIMES:

Assistant Fire Commissioner: "I thought . . . before . . . No. 2 came down, that I saw low-level flashes. . . . I . . . saw a flash flash flash . . . [at] the lower level of the building. You know like when they . . . blow up a building. . . ?”

Source:
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyreg...ory_Stephen.txt


# NYC firefighter: “It actually gave at a lower floor, not the floor where the plane hit. . . [W]e originally had thought there was like an internal detonation, explosives, because it went in succession, boom, boom, boom, boom, and then the tower came down.”

Link to quote:
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyreg...chia_Edward.txt


# From The San Francisco Chronicle / SFGate.com:

Captain of Emergency Medical Services: "somewhere around the middle of the world trade center there was this orange and red flash coming out ... initially it was just one flash then this flash just kept popping all the way around the building and that building had started to explode ... and with each popping sound it was initially an orange and then red flash came out of the building and then it would just go all around the building on both sides ... as far as could see these popping sounds and the explosions were getting bigger going both up and down and then all around the building"

Link to quote:
http://sfgate.com/gate/pictures/2005/09/10...rin_deshore.pdf


# "When we got to about 50 feet from the South Tower, we heard the most eerie sound that you would ever hear. A high-pitched noise and a popping noise made everyone stop. We all looked up. At the point, it all let go...
...There was an explosion and the whole top leaned toward us and started coming down. I stood there for a second in total awe, and then said, "What the F###?" I honestly thought it was Hollywood."

- Eye-witness Jeff Birnbaum, president of Broadway Electrical Supply Co., New York

Link to quote:
http://september11.ceenews.com/ar/electric...trical_supplys/


# Member of the FDNY:
"We were trying to get some of the people out, but then there was secondary explosions and then subsequent collapses."

Video: http://www.911blimp.net/videos/FDNY-explosions.mov


# Firefighter:
"As we were getting our gear on and making our way to the stairway, there was a heavy duty explosion."

Video: http://terrorize.dk/911/witnesses/heavy.duty.explosion.wmv

user posted image

Firemen recall "detonations" in South Tower:

fireman2: We made it outside, we made it about a block.
fireman1: We made it at least 2 blocks.
fireman2: 2 blocks.
fireman1: and we started runnin'
fireman2: poch-poch-poch-poch-poch-poch-poch
fireman1: Floor by floor it started poppin' out ..
fireman2: It was as if as if they had detonated, det..
fireman1: yea detonated yea
fireman2: as if they had planned to take down a building,
boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom-boom ...
fireman1: All the way down, I was watchin it, and runnin'

Video: http://911research.com/wtc/evidence/videos...n_firehouse.mpg

# September 12, 2001, New York City, People.com

Louie Cacchioli, 51, is a firefighter assigned to Engine 47 in Harlem.

We were the first ones in the second tower after the plane struck. I was taking firefighters up in the elevator to the 24th floor to get in position to evacuate workers. On the last trip up a bomb went off. We think there was bombs set in the building....

Link to article:
http://prisonplanet.com/louie_cacchioli.htm


# NBC Reporter, Pat Dawson:
[Albert Turi the Chief of Safety for the New York Fire Department] received word of the possibility of a secondary device, that is another bomb going off. He tried to get his men out as quickly as he could, but he said there was another explosion which took place, and then an hour after the first hit, the first crash that took place, he said there was another explosion that took place in one of the towers here, so obviously according to his theory he thinks that there were actually devices that were planted in the building. One of the secondary devices he thinks that took place after the initial impact he thinks may have been on the plane that crashed into one of the towers. The second device, he thinks, he speculates, was probably planted in the building.“

Video: http://terrorize.dk/911/witnesses/911.wtc.reporter.1.wmv


# MSNBC Reporter, Rick Sanchez:
"Police have found what they believe to be a suspicious device and they fear that it may lead to another explosion...I spoke with some police officials moments ago, Chris, and they told me they have reason to believe that one of the explosion at the WTC besides the ones made with the planes, may have been caused by a van that was parked on the building that may have had an explosive device in it."

Video: http://www.terrorize.dk/911/comments/911.w....explosives.wmv


# War Corespondent, Jack Kelley:
"Apparently what appears to happen was that at the same time two planes hit the building that there... that the FBI most likely thinks that there was a car or truck packed with explosives underneath the buildings which also exploded at the same time..."

Video: http://www.terrorize.dk/911/comments/911.w....jack.kelley.rm


# MSNBC Reporter, Ann Thompson:
"At 10:30 I tried to leave the building, but as I got outside I heard a second explosion and another rumble and more smoke and more dust. I ran inside the building and the chandelier shook and again black smoke filled the air. Within another five minutes we were covered again with more soot and more dust. And then a fire marshal came in and said we had to leave, because if there was a third explosion this building might not last.."

Video: http://www.terrorize.dk/911/witnesses/911.....explosions.wmv
user posted image

Street Reporter:
"45 minutes into the taping we were doing, there was an explosion. It was way up where the fire was and the whole building at that point bellied out in flames and everybody ran."

Video: http://terrorize.dk/911/witnesses/911.wtc.reporter.2.wmv


# Witness / 9-11 survivor:
"I was about five blocks away when I heard explosions... three thuds and turned around to see the building that we just got out of... tip over and fall in on itself."

Video: http://terrorize.dk/911/witnesses/911.wtc.witness.1.wmv


# Witness / 9-11 survivor:
"...and then all of a sudden it started like... it sounded like gunfire... you know, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang and then all of a sudden three big explosions."

Video: http://terrorize.dk/911/witnesses/911.wtc.witness.2.wmv
user posted image

Terror in the City, September 12 , 2001, Notes from Robert Ivy, FAIA Editor-in-chief

...we felt a rumble like faraway thunder and turned. The impossible was happening. The south tower of the World Trade Center shook, and in what resembled an elemental act, fell to earth in a mighty shout. The entire dissolution, the changeover from solid elements to ash, took only seconds, and it was gone...

Link to article:
http://www.archrecord.com/news/fromTheFiel.../0109terror.asp


# An Eye-Witness Account of the World Trade Center Attacks
from Neil deGrasse Tyson

The following is the text from an email Neil deGrasse Tyson sent to his family and friends on 12 September 2001. Neil witnessed the attacks on the twin towers from his apartment only six blocks from the World Trade Center. He is Director of the Hayden Planetarium of the American Museum of Natural History, which is located in New York City. Neil also serves as The Planetary Society's Vice President...

From: Neil deGrasse Tyson
Sent: 10AM, Wednesday, 12 September 2001
Subject: The Horror, The Horror

...4) As more and more and more and more and more emergency vehicles descended on the World Trade Center, I hear a second explosion in WTC 2, then a loud, low-frequency rumble that precipitates the unthinkable -- a collapse of all the floors above the point of explosion. First the top surface, containing the helipad, tips sideways in full view. Then the upper floors fall straight down in a demolition-style implosion, taking all lower floors with it, even those below the point of the explosion...

...6) I decide it's time to get my daughter, who was taken by the parents of a friend of hers to a small office building, six blocks farther from the WTC than my apartment. As I dress for survival: boots, flashlight, wet towels, swimming goggles, bicycle helmet, gloves, I hear another explosion followed by a now all-too familiar rumble that signaled the collapse of WTC 1, the first of the two towers to have been hit. I saw the iconic antenna on this building descend straight down in an implosion twinning the first...

Link to Neil deGrasse Tyson's email:
http://www.planetary.org/html/society/advi...t11account.html


# Tuesday, 11 September, 2001, Eyewitnesses tell of horror, BBC News

"...I saw everything from my balcony in Soho. The first plane tried to veer off the tower but slammed straight into it, followed by the second plane," Nadine Keller of New York City wrote in an e-mail to BBC News Online.

"There was smoke everywhere. I heard the bomb and saw both buildings crumble like biscuits," Ms Keller said.

The BBC received more than 1,300 e-mails from witnesses and other concerned readers within the first few hours after the attack.

Link to article:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1537500.stm


# 9/11 Survivor Describes Multiple Explosions

"There were explosions going off everywhere. I was convinced that there were bombs planted all over the place and someone was sitting at a control panel pushing detonator buttons. I was afraid to go down Church Street toward Broadway, but I had to do it. I ended up on Vesey Street. There was another explosion. And another. I didn't know where to run."

Source: "Teresa Veliz: A Prayer to Die Quickly and Painlessly," in September 11: An Oral History by Dean E. Murphy (Doubleday, 2002), pp 9-15. http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/veliz-bombs.htm


# 9/11 hero, William Rodriguez, who was the last person out of the north tower, states that there was a massive explosion in the North Tower BEFORE the plane hit:

"When I heard the sound of the explosion, the floor beneath my feet vibrated, the walls started cracking and it everything started shaking

"Seconds after the first massive explosion below in the basement still rattled the floor, I hear another explosion from way above... Although I was unaware at the time, this was the airplane hitting the tower, it occurred moments after the first explosion.

"I know there were explosives placed below the trade center.

"I have tried to tell my story to everybody, but nobody wants to listen. It is very strange what is going on here in supposedly the most democratic country in the world. In my home country of Puerto Rico and all the other Latin American countries, I have been allowed to tell my story uncensored. But here, I can’t even say a word.

"I met with the 9/11 Commission behind closed doors and they essentially discounted everything I said regarding the use of explosives to bring down the north tower.

"And I contacted NIST previously four times without a response. Finally, this week I asked them before they came up with their conclusion that jet fuel brought down the towers, if they ever considered my statements or the statements of any of the other survivors who heard the explosions. They just stared at me with blank faces and didn’t have any answers."

Link to quotes:
http://www.arcticbeacon.com/articles/artic...18131/28031.htm

# “Amazing, incredible pick your word. For the third time today, it’s reminiscent of those pictures we’ve all seen too much on television before, where a building was deliberately destroyed by well placed dynamite to knock it down.”

- CBS News anchor, Dan Rather, commenting on the collapse of Building 7, September 11, 2001 at approx 5:20pm EST.

Video: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/w..._demolition.mpg


# Excerpt from a radio interview with Indira Singh, ground zero rescue worker and 9/11 whistleblower. She says that she and others were told to move away from Building 7, by persons that she thought were members of the FDNY, because they were "going to have to bring it down":

Radio host Bonnie Falkner: How long did you work as an emergency medical technician and exactly what is it that you were doing (at ground zero)?

Indira Singh: ...when I got there we were setting up triage sites (at ground zero), close, very close to the area. The triage site that I was setting up was behind, well, to the east of Building 7 where Building 7 came down...
...we were setting up triages as close to the pile as possible… so what we were doing was setting up different kinds of stations… IV stations, cardiac stations, wound stations, burn stations ...just trying to have an organized space. What happened with that particular triage site is that pretty soon afternoon, after mid-day on 9/11 we had to evacuate that because they told us Building 7 was coming down... I do believe that they brought Building 7 down... By noon or one o'clock they told us we had to move from that triage site up to Pace University a little further away because Building 7 was going to come down or being brought down.

Bonnie Falkner: Did they actually use the word "brought" down and who was it that was telling you this?

Indira Singh: The fire department... the fire department and they did use the word "we're going to have to bring it down."

The entire interview can be listened to at the link below. The excerpts from above can be found approximately 10 minutes into the interview.

Guns & Butter Radio interview w/ Indira Singh hosted by Bonnie Falkner - April 27th 2005:
http://tinyurl.com/7dww8


# "I remember getting a call from the, er, fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, 'We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it.' And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse."

- World Trade Center lease holder, Larry Silverstein, commenting on the demolition of Building 7 in the PBS documentary "America Rebuilds", which aired in September of 2002

Video: http://www.911blogger.com/files/video/wtc7_pbs.WMV
Audio: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/PULLIT.mp3

In the same documentary, America Rebuilds, a clean up worker at ground zero uses the term "pull" when preparing for the controlled demolition of Building 6:

"... we're getting ready to pull building six."

Audio: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/pull-it2.mp3



# "If you've seen many of the managed demolitions where they implode a building and they cause it to essentially to fall vertically because they cause all of the vertical columns to fail simultaneously, that's exactly what it looked like and that's what happened"

- Matthys Levy, Structural Engineer and co author of Why buildings Fall Down

Video: http://www.freepressinternational.com/discovery.html


# The fact that WTC-7 fell down symmetrically, onto its own footprint very neatly, even though fires were just observed on one side of the building. A symmetrical collapse, as observed, requires the simultaneous "pulling" of support beams. By my count, there were 24 core columns and 57 perimeter columns in WTC-7. Heat transport considerations for steel beams heated by fire suggest that failure of even a few columns at the same time is very small. Adding in the Second Law of Thermodynamics ("law of increasing entropy") leads to the conclusion that the likelihood of near-symmetrical collapse of the building due to fires (the "government" theory) -- requiring as it does near-simultaneous failure of many support columns -- is infinitesimal. Yet near-symmetrical collapse of WTC-7 was observed.

"I have performed other analyses regarding the WTC collapses on 9-11-01 which may be of interest --let me know if you're interested. The matter is highly interesting to me as a physicist -- and as a citizen of the United States. I conclude that the evidence for pre-positioned explosives in WTC 7 (also in towers 1 and 2) is truly compelling."

- Steven E. Jones, Professor of Physics/BYU, in an email sent to his colleagues concerning the World Trade Center collapses

# Why WTC Steel Towers Collapsed at One Blow
September 20, 2001
english.people.com.cn

Professor Shi Yongjiu, director of civil engineering department of Qinghua University and an expert on steel structure, guesses that the lower part of the WTC twin towers may got seriously damaged.

According to steel structure's mechanical nature, the towers shouldn't collapse as late as an hour later after the planes slammed into. What's more, it should be in a way to topple over gradually instead of crashing down as seen in videotapes. It looks more like a directional blast in doing the job of destruction, so he feels that huge damages must have been done at the lower part of the towers.

Link to article:
http://english.people.com.cn/english/20010...0920_80655.html


# Explosives Planted in Towers, New Mexico Tech Expert Says
Albuquerque Journal, September, 2001

"My opinion is, based on the videotapes, that after the
airplanes hit the World Trade Center there were some
explosive devices inside the buildings that caused the
towers to collapse

"It would be difficult for
something from the plane to trigger an event like that

"It could have been a relatively small
amount of explosives placed in strategic points

- Van Romero, Vice President for Research and Economic Development at New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology and a major authority on the effects of explosions on buildings (Romero has since retracted his statement, saying "Certainly the fire is what caused the building to fail.").

Original Link to quote
http://www.abqjournal.com/aqvan09-11-01.htm

Archived link of Romero's quote:
http://www.world-action.co.uk/explosives.html

New Mexico Tech Explosives Expert 'Flip-Flops' On WTC Controlled Demo Theory; Refuses To Explain Why
http://news.baou.com/main.php?action=recent&rid=20284

# Related 9-11 Controlled Demolition Articles:

Taking a Closer Look: Hard Science and the Collapse of the World Trade Center
by David Heller
BS: Physics Bard College
MA: S. F. Inst. Architecture
Architect and Builder
http://www.garlicandgrass.org/issue6/Dave_Heller.cfm

Another 9/11 Smoking Gun
http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2005/...moking-gun.html

Below the Belt
http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2005/10/below-belt.html



# Building Demolition Videos:

* J.L. Hudson Department Store - Detroit, Michigan
http://www.controlled-demolition.com/image...nt/jlhudson.mpg

* Seattle Kingdome
http://www.controlled-demolition.com/image...nt/kingdome.mpg

* Various building demolitions
http://www.implosionworld.com/cinema.htm


# Secret Evil of 9-11

20 minute (12mb) video combining music, videos of the collapses, interview clips and minimalist on-screen text to create a very effective introduction to the many oddities of the events of 9-11.

Video: http://www.plaguepuppy.net/public_html/vid...Evil-of-911.wmv


# The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions
Professor David Ray Griffin's 9-11 talk at the University of Wisconsin (April, 2005)

Aired on C-SPAN 2's BookTV

Description: David Ray Griffin takes a critical look at the official 9/11 Commission Report. Professor Griffin argues that "omissions and distortions" in the report amount to a cover-up by government officials and says that the available evidence suggests that the Bush administration was complicit in the 9/11 attacks.

Professor Griffin covers topics he says have been inadequately answered by the commission. These include questions surrounding the attack on the Pentagon, the way in which the World Trade Center towers collapsed, and the behavior of President Bush and his Secret Service detail following notification that a second plane had hit the WTC. The talk was hosted by the Muslim- Jewish- Christian Alliance for 9/11 Truth (www.mujca.com) and took place at the University of Wisconsin in Madison. Includes Q&A.

Author Bio: David Ray Griffin is professor emeritus at the Claremont School of Theology, where he taught for over 30 years (retiring in 2004). He has authored or edited over two dozen books, including "God and Religion in the Postmodern World," "Religion and Scientific Naturalism," and "The New Pearl Harbor: Disturbing Questions About the Bush Administration and 9/11."

Video: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article8765.htm

Play in remote player: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/v...son_full_25.wmv


And yes that is correct, larry Silversein admitts on national tv that he had WTC 7 blown up at 5:20 pm on 9/11
which means that the building was rigged well before 9/11 for controled demolition

here is the video of Silverstein admitting that he had wtc 7 blown up because the firefighters were tired
http://www.911blogger.com/files/video/wtc7_pbs.WMV

yesitdid
commondreamer, did you bother to read any of the past dozen pages at all?

frater, this is a physics forum, does a discussion of political motivations belong here?

I thought that there was supposed to be enough physical evidence that the WTC buildings could not have been destroyed as advertised. If this is not correct please admit it.
Guest
commondreamer, did you bother to read any of the past dozen pages at all?

frater, this is a physics forum, does a discussion of political motivations belong here?

I thought that there was supposed to be enough physical evidence that the WTC buildings could not have been destroyed as advertised. If this is not correct please admit it.[QUOTE]

I actually did read about 30 to 40 pages, mostly in the beginning where the NIST contractor shill admits what he was doing here.

I found this compilation of eyewittnesses quite compelling as nowhere in the MSM did I ever hear one bit of this. Granted eyewittnesses are not scientific proof, but the owner of WTC 1,2 and 7 admitting guilt pretty much settles it for most of us however.
stallion4
Hi, YID. I don't have enough time to post a follow up to yours right now, but I will when I have more time - hopefully by tonight. But for now, if you have time, download the documentary below, 911 Eyewitness. It's in three parts, but for now I would just like you to download parts 2 and 3.

Once you download parts 2 and 3, open part 2 and forward to 26:00. From that time forward to the end of part 2 ( 7 minutes ) and approximately thirteen minutes into part 3 - these sections of the documentary cover the topic of WTC 7.

I don't necessarily want your opinion after/if you watch it. I would just like you to watch it - if you have time to. If you do, you'll hear witnesses describe the "collapse" of that building followed by an analysis of the "collapse" from the filmmakers.

Keep in mind that the camera that recorded these 9-11 events was located across the river from the WTC - so the audio doesn't match the video, because of the sound delay (from the WTC to when the camera picks up the sound). The documentary corrects this and you'll then be able to hear explosions before the buildings fall (Part one explains how the filmmakers match up the audio to the video).

Here are all of the links to the film in case you would like to download the entire documentary:

911 Eyewitness 1of3 (WMV 48megs)
http://question911.com/linkout.php?filenam...ness%201of3.wmv

911 Eyewitness 2of3 (WMV 48megs)
http://question911.com/linkout.php?filenam...ness%202of3.wmv

911 Eyewitness 3of3 (WMV 48megs)
http://question911.com/linkout.php?filenam...ness%203of3.wmv

Also, I recommend that you use earphones when watching this film, because your computer speakers won't pick up the sound of the explosions as well as the earphones.
commondreamer
hello stallion4

New to this forum, but
Great to see you here, You have done some great work, hope you dont mind me forwarding it when I get the chance.

Guest
Hey, commondreamer! Thanks for the compliment, but all of those quotes are public so feel free to share them with anyone you want...

YID, I made a mistake about when the documentary explains how they matched up the audio with the video. That section is covered in part 2 - about 17 minutes in.
frater plecticus
QUOTE
frater, this is a physics forum, does a discussion of political motivations belong here?


Seeing as not one person on Earth has been charged in direct connection with 9-11, and the fact that we supposedly live in a democracy, I believe it does. Of course, if you don´t agree with me, that´s your problem and not mine.

Don´t read my posts. Don´t come back. Don´t post.

user posted image

At least I´ll be sleeping with a sound conscience tonight...

that is more than can be said for some of the posters here....

user posted image

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
frater, this is a physics forum, does a discussion of political motivations belong here?


Seeing as not one person on Earth has been charged in direct connection with 9-11, and the fact that we supposedly live in a democracy, I believe it does. Of course, if you don´t agree with me, that´s your problem and not mine.

Don´t read my posts. Don´t come back. Don´t post.

user posted image

At least I´ll be sleeping with a sound conscience tonight...

that is more than can be said for some of the posters here....

user posted image

He was bankrupt, discredited and jobless, and he had a wife and new-born daughter. On the verge of suicide, it suddenly struck him that his life belonged, not to himself, but to the universe. He chose at that moment to embark on what he called “an experiment to discover what the little, penniless, unknown individual might be able to do effectively on behalf of all humanity.”
manifespo
It's been awhile since I posted in this monstrously simple thread. (two just opposing forces of truth and disinfo). In this post, I contain commentary to both the inconsistent yesitdidn't and the fearsome but fallacious Guest. My thoughts are in bold.

QUOTE (yesitdid+Dec 19 2005, 05:02 PM)
QUOTE (Guest+Dec 19 2005, 07:23 AM)

if freefall in a vacuum is 9.22 seconds for the towers, might we remember that they didn't fall in a vacuum? 

You are right, they did not fall in a vacuum.  Instead, they exploded onto the ground.

one acre of floor space is a lot of area for air to buck up against.  never mind the welds and bolts, air alone would slow the collapse of the buildings, much the same as it slows the fall of anything that has surface area.

So you are saying the towers in real conditions would fall SLOWER in free fall than in a vacuum?   This is true, all other things equal.

and, with that in mind, why didn't these towers fall down a long time ago?  there was nothing but air holding them up, apparently.


Nothing but air, what the hell are you talking about? There was hundreds of steel columns, reinforced and packed with concrete and other structure materials. Don't they exert little stronger upward force than air?

If an object is allowed to fall on Earth it accelerates in obedience to Newton's formula
a=F/m. But this will happen only until the force due to air resistance equals that of gravity. The drag force is (Cd*rho*A*V^2 )/2
Cd= coefficient of drag
rho=density of air
V=velocity
A=area in the plane perpendicular to the direction of travel

So when ma=(Cd*rho*A*V^2)/2 the object will be at terminal velocity. V at the outset will be zero and will increase with time.

This would NOT happen in the WTC collapse. NOT EVEN CLOSE. The building was a MASSIVE object, and fell only ~1300 feet. The air drag is MINISCULE compared to Earth's pull on the WTC towers!

We can regard mass and area as constant. Therefore velocity will have to get quite large before the right side of the equation approachs the value of the left side of the equation for a if there is a high value of m. The velocity will be dependant on the distance fallen.

We can see that heavier objects will have a larger terminal velocity than ones with the same area but lighter and therfore take longer to reach that terminal velocity than lighter objects of the same dimensions.

That is not a true statement. Aristotle was wrong about the same issue. This is basic physics knowledge- heavy and light objects fall at the same acceleration!- all other things equal.
THE DRAG force will NEVER even come close to reaching the force of gravity. The force of gravity on a 3,000,000,000 kilogram tower tower is exactly 21,500,000,000 Newtons. Do you really think the air drag force was even .01% of that gravity field?

Its not a matter of mass, necessarily- its a matter of drag force.



The force due to air resistance would be minimal compared to the force due to gravity and would not slow such massive objects appreciably over a distance of only 1300 feet.

^^ Exactly



gnotone
QUOTE (yesitdid+Dec 19 2005, 04:38 PM)

If this is affecting your relations with friends and family I suggest finding professional assistance. wink.gif

The fall of 20 stories of building is NOT going to sound like breaking rocks or clanging steel. I have been 10 feet away from a 50 pound metal tool being accidentally dropped from 15 feet up. It made a booming noise when it hit the ground(asphalt) , yes there was a metallic sound mixed in there as well. An impact that is millions of times greater would IMHO also make a booming sound.

well, i beg to differ. i've heard more than one giant piece of steel come crashing down. it sounds mettalic when it hits concrete. if it is hitting other steel, the brittle character of steel 'traps' the vibrational energy even longer, and the steel will ring longer. go figger.

i grew up on construction sites.

and, funnily enough, rocks being broken into smaller pieces sound suspiciously like rocks being broken into smaller pieces. thin things make high pitched noises, and thick things make low frequency noises(the fundamental, that is, overtones depend on resonance and brittleness)

yes, the sound would be HUGE. i never said it wouldn't.

just last night i listened to the 911eyewitness recording.

there are CLEARLY explosions going off. even when the building(tower 2) is just sitting there not moving.

and WOW! something new! helicopters purposely flying in the smoke. like they didn't want to be seen. and for every one in the smoke, there is another one flying in plain sight. anyone hears a helicopter and looks up, and the source of the sound is obvious. yet, they are only half right. there is a lot of half truth involved with 911. a whole lot.

if you have half a brain, you will buy the official story hook(towers), line(obl did it) and sinker(yellow journalism).

p.s. i get my professional assistance from dead guys. like newton, galileo, copernicus, einstien, tesla, mclue-in, and even NWO shills like bertrand russel and aldous huxley. the only professional assistance from a live person i might need is an entertainment coordinator for the huge party i throw when evil gets crushed by the heel of righteousness.
i think people who are helping protect the guilty should get profeesional help. maybe dr. kavorkian could help.
yesitdid
QUOTE (frater plecticus+Dec 19 2005, 05:58 PM)
QUOTE
frater, this is a physics forum, does a discussion of political motivations belong here?


Seeing as not one person on Earth has been charged in direct connection with 9-11, and the fact that we supposedly live in a democracy, I believe it does. Of course, if you don´t agree with me, that´s your problem and not mine.

Don´t read my posts. Don´t come back. Don´t post.

user posted image

At least I´ll be sleeping with a sound conscience tonight...

that is more than can be said for some of the posters here....

user posted image

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
frater, this is a physics forum, does a discussion of political motivations belong here?


Seeing as not one person on Earth has been charged in direct connection with 9-11, and the fact that we supposedly live in a democracy, I believe it does. Of course, if you don´t agree with me, that´s your problem and not mine.

Don´t read my posts. Don´t come back. Don´t post.

user posted image

At least I´ll be sleeping with a sound conscience tonight...

that is more than can be said for some of the posters here....

user posted image

He was bankrupt, discredited and jobless, and he had a wife and new-born daughter. On the verge of suicide, it suddenly struck him that his life belonged, not to himself, but to the universe. He chose at that moment to embark on what he called “an experiment to discover what the little, penniless, unknown individual might be able to do effectively on behalf of all humanity.”

Your first image won't display. Though it cannot be found, from the title I assume it is your oft posted photo of someone jumping from one of the towers.

Is the final quote something about Buckminister Fuller then? If so then explain its relevance to the topic of the physics involved in the events of 9/11/01. For that matter you can also explain the significance of CIA dirty tricks and US foreign in the context of the physics of the events of 9/11/01.

Fact is of course there is no relevance or significance for those in the physics of anything. You want to discuss the political motivations of a supposed gov't or shadow gov't conspiracy to orchestrate the events of 9/11 then there are many forums out there for that.

You might have noticed that politics is not really in any way the thrust of these, physorg forums.

Again, supposedly there is enough evidence that the physical realities are such that the events that resulted in the destruction of the WTC complex buildings could not have happened as the official history of it says.

If you do not wish to post on such things then post elsewhere, don't come back, don't post.

I'll sleep well knowing that I cannot see any evidence to dispute the engineering or physics involved in the official history of events.


Stallion I have seen some of that video and again I must ask how the narrator arrives at the conclusion that the sounds are coming from the WTC and not the waterfront for instance. I note that the news people make no reference to the sounds, why not? Once again as well, what sounds would one expect from a collapsing building or one that is suffering continued damage due to fires weakening its structure, if not booming sounds?
Guest
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 19 2005, 04:57 PM)
QUOTE (Foxx+)
As I work around this equipment I automatically understood what Pecararo meant by 50 ton press.


As the posts have shown, you DID NOT automatically understand what Pecararo meant, since its been clearly shown that the "50 ton" label does not actually describe the device. While his use in the quote is legit, since he was referring to a specific press, your repeatedly using the "50 ton" label as a qualifier in all of your subsequent posts is simply disinformation.

Had I (or someone else) NOT posted a picture of my 400 lb. "50 ton toy", would you have ever cleared up the misconception?

I think not.

Not dissimilar to your reference to a 2500 ton chilling unit.

laugh.gif

Foxx, you are appearing more and more desperate to hold your falling tower of cards together.

Come on now, after all this time studying this, and even taking the time to put up your own web site, I'd have thought you might have at least ONE piece of ACTUAL evidence to support your theory.

What are you waiting for?

Come on, if you've got it, show it.

Arthur

Foxx,
You are defiantly a disinformation agent; trying to fool the shill’s buy calling a 50-ton press a 50-ton press is not playing fair. You should refer to it as a cheap (400 pound) steel press with a manual upside down 50 ton hydraulic jack instead of a 2 or 4-post cast iron press most machine shops would use. If you keep using logic, facts and posting pictures the shill’s might not get their Christmas bonus. So what are you supposed to call a 2500 ton chilling unit?
yesitdid
QUOTE (gnotone+Dec 19 2005, 06:46 PM)
QUOTE (yesitdid+Dec 19 2005, 04:38 PM)

If this is affecting your relations with friends and family I suggest finding professional assistance. wink.gif

The fall of 20 stories of building is NOT going to sound like breaking rocks or clanging steel. I have been 10 feet away from a 50 pound metal tool being accidentally dropped from 15 feet up. It made a booming noise when it hit the ground(asphalt) , yes there was a metallic sound mixed in there as well. An impact that is millions of times greater would IMHO also make a booming sound.

well, i beg to differ. i've heard more than one giant piece of steel come crashing down. it sounds mettalic when it hits concrete. if it is hitting other steel, the brittle character of steel 'traps' the vibrational energy even longer, and the steel will ring longer. go figger.

i grew up on construction sites.

and, funnily enough, rocks being broken into smaller pieces sound suspiciously like rocks being broken into smaller pieces. thin things make high pitched noises, and thick things make low frequency noises(the fundamental, that is, overtones depend on resonance and brittleness)

yes, the sound would be HUGE. i never said it wouldn't.

just last night i listened to the 911eyewitness recording.

there are CLEARLY explosions going off. even when the building(tower 2) is just sitting there not moving.

and WOW! something new! helicopters purposely flying in the smoke. like they didn't want to be seen. and for every one in the smoke, there is another one flying in plain sight. anyone hears a helicopter and looks up, and the source of the sound is obvious. yet, they are only half right. there is a lot of half truth involved with 911. a whole lot.

if you have half a brain, you will buy the official story hook(towers), line(obl did it) and sinker(yellow journalism).

p.s. i get my professional assistance from dead guys. like newton, galileo, copernicus, einstien, tesla, mclue-in, and even NWO shills like bertrand russel and aldous huxley. the only professional assistance from a live person i might need is an entertainment coordinator for the huge party i throw when evil gets crushed by the heel of righteousness.
i think people who are helping protect the guilty should get profeesional help. maybe dr. kavorkian could help.

Odd that in the entire fall of a building largely constructed of steel, no matter what caused it to fall, eyewitnesses do not mention a clanging noise.

Thin things make high pitched sounds, you know that this is due to their dimensions being small and therefore the fundamentals of the vibrations being short wavelength right?

So in a 30 foot long chunk of steel we can assume that one fundamental of the sound would be related to the length of that piece. A 30 foot wavelength sound at sea level is about 30 hertz(+/-) and 30 hertz would be a BOOM rather than a CLANG.

helicopters purposely flying in the smoke. like they didn't want to be seen. and for every one in the smoke, there is another one flying in plain sight. anyone hears a helicopter and looks up, and the source of the sound is obvious. yet, they are only half right. there is a lot of half truth involved with 911. a whole lot.

Oh, stop , your breaking me up laugh.gif


You sound like Foxx. Look NIST is trying to say that the columns are teeny even though the dimensions are printed now you give us, look up in the air, they are trying to hide helicopters in plain sight. So pray tell, what would be the evil purpose of said helicopters?

Do you find that fellow workers try to keep you off certain topics of discussion? Do you take that as proof that some of them are agents planted to keep an eye on you? ph34r.gif
fallacious and fearsome
QUOTE (manifespo+Dec 19 2005, 06:40 PM)


The force due to air resistance would be minimal compared to the force due to gravity and would not slow such massive objects appreciably over a distance of only 1300 feet.

^^ Exactly


[/QUOTE]





well, i don't know. you said i was right, and then at the end of your post, said i was wrong. i didn't quantify anything, merely qualified.

i don't think hearing explosions is a fallacy, personally.

nor do i think seeing squibs go off to be a fallacy.

nor do i think the reports of molten metal are falacious.

i notice you calculated the gravitational energy, but ignored the drag coefficient. no guesstimates on that? i don't think one hundred and ten acres of four inch thick concrete and steel is necessarily insignifigant. the drag coeffiecient number should be quite large, too. it seems you have also added the total mass of the towers, when i am really only talking about the floors, you know, because of their shape? the beams are pretty aerodynamic, i'd guess.
i think we could have expected a large number from old newton.

it says we can come to this forum if we have questions about physics. so, what is the drag coefficient for 90 something acres of floor space(the lobby was several stories high and the windiws were blown out, that' s why i didn't say 110)?
how much resistance can be expected from the air pockets trapped between floors?
i mean, an air bag in a car crash doesn't have a lot of mass, and yet it can contain a HUGE amount of impact force.

will you also dismiss as insignifigant the upward resistance provided by air trapped by the glass, concrete and steel?

yours fallaciously, mr. fearsome
yesitdid
QUOTE (Guest+Dec 19 2005, 07:15 PM)
Foxx,
You are defiantly a disinformation agent; trying to fool the shill’s buy calling a 50-ton press a 50-ton press is not playing fair. You should refer to it as a cheap (400 pound) steel press with a manual upside down 50 ton hydraulic jack instead of a 2 or 4-post cast iron press most machine shops would use. If you keep using logic, facts and posting pictures the shill’s might not get their Christmas bonus. So what are you supposed to call a 2500 ton chilling unit?

Foxx is the one who says that NIST is trying to "obfuscate" the size of the columns of the towers even though they do list the actual dimensions of those columns so if such a thing has to be fully explained and pointed out by NIST then the same should apply to good ol' Foxx. Yet it seems he just let that 50 ton reference hang there. Now if Foxx had said that because he works with people who use such equipment that he failed to take into account that those who do not might mis-read the description I would accept that. But no, instead he seems to be saying that he knows that everyone reading it would know that a 50 press does not refer to the actual mass of the machine and you assume that everyone just knows that a 2500 ton chiller does not refer to a machine weighing 5 million pounds.

In fact in this reference, for those who are not savvy to HVAC terms, ton is a unit of measurement for determining cooling capacity. One ton equals 12,000 Btuh(British thermal units per hour). (If I am not mistaken and for purposes of a simple comparison, a 3 ton cooling unit would be able to transfer the heat coming from a common backyard propane BBQ such that the BBQ would not raise the temp of a room in which both the cooling unit and BBQ were running at full capacity)
adoucette
Foxx was trying to imply that the hydraulic press was LARGE, even though the written description of its location was a "SMALL machine shop" (and not a business but just for maint), he then posts pictures of HUGE PRODUCTION hydraulic presses and then adds that they didn't do light stuff, they were working on pulling the heads of 2500 TON chillers. Now EXCUSE me, but once again he certainly APPEARS to be trying to make their job BIGGER than it really is. At one point he was claiming they worked on the Elevators but I suggested to him that OTIS might look dimly upon others messing with their equipment (Every OTIS elevator is a CUSTOM install)

Arthur
adoucette
QUOTE (fallacious and fearsome+)
i don't think hearing explosions is a fallacy, personally.

nor do i think seeing squibs go off to be a fallacy.

nor do i think the reports of molten metal are falacious.


They heard what they thought an EXPLOSION would sound like. Listen to the CD of the Hudson building to HEAR the difference between a CD and the WTC tower. High Explosives, designed to cut steel, make a VERY SHARP report. I've yet to hear one of those on any of the Videos.

Secondly, a CD would require HUNDREDS if not thousands of these to go off, I've heard NOTHING like that on any of the videos.

You didn't see a SQUIB go off. A squib goes off SIMULTANEOUSLY with the HE that it is designed to detonate. Thus you would never actually see a squib, unless of course it failed to set off its HE. No HE damage is seen in any video. Seeing some ejecta and ASSUMING it is a squib is like being in Texas, hearing hoof beats behind you, and assuming its a Zebra.

The ONLY report I have seen of molten metal definitely comes from a less than credible source. What is interesting though is NO REPORTS and NO PICTURES of a big hunk of solidified metal have been shown as it was removed from the WTC site.

What is even more mystifying is what you think a pool of molten metal would indicate?

Arthur
yesitdid
QUOTE
well, i don't know. you said i was right, and then at the end of your post, said i was wrong. i didn't quantify anything, merely qualified.


You were correct in the fact that air resistance would be present, wrong that it would appreciably slow the collapse.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
well, i don't know. you said i was right, and then at the end of your post, said i was wrong. i didn't quantify anything, merely qualified.


You were correct in the fact that air resistance would be present, wrong that it would appreciably slow the collapse.

i don't think hearing explosions is a fallacy, personally
.
I do.

QUOTE
nor do i think seeing squibs go off to be a fallacy.

I do

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
nor do i think seeing squibs go off to be a fallacy.

I do

nor do i think the reports of molten metal are falacious.


I believe that some molten metal was found. I do not believe the extrapolation that it was a huge amount nor that it was still in the molten state when found.

QUOTE
i notice you calculated the gravitational energy, but ignored the drag coefficient. no guesstimates on that? i don't think one hundred and ten acres of four inch thick concrete and steel is necessarily insignifigant. the drag coeffiecient number should be quite large, too. it seems you have also added the total mass of the towers, when i am really only talking about the floors, you know, because of their shape? the beams are pretty aerodynamic, i'd guess.
i think we could have expected a large number from old newton.

it says we can come to this forum if we have questions about physics. so, what is the drag coefficient for 90 something acres of floor space(the lobby was several stories high and the windiws were blown out, that' s why i didn't say 110)?
how much resistance can be expected from the air pockets trapped between floors?


The drag would not be on 90 acres of floor space. (4350 sq feet times 90=3920400 sq feet) That would be a square 2000 feet on a side. It would never be more than the size of one floor. (sqrt of 3920400=1980 feet) I don't recall but I don't think the towers were 0.37 miles long on a side. In fact the entire site of the towers was only 16 acres.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
i notice you calculated the gravitational energy, but ignored the drag coefficient. no guesstimates on that? i don't think one hundred and ten acres of four inch thick concrete and steel is necessarily insignifigant. the drag coeffiecient number should be quite large, too. it seems you have also added the total mass of the towers, when i am really only talking about the floors, you know, because of their shape? the beams are pretty aerodynamic, i'd guess.
i think we could have expected a large number from old newton.

it says we can come to this forum if we have questions about physics. so, what is the drag coefficient for 90 something acres of floor space(the lobby was several stories high and the windiws were blown out, that' s why i didn't say 110)?
how much resistance can be expected from the air pockets trapped between floors?


The drag would not be on 90 acres of floor space. (4350 sq feet times 90=3920400 sq feet) That would be a square 2000 feet on a side. It would never be more than the size of one floor. (sqrt of 3920400=1980 feet) I don't recall but I don't think the towers were 0.37 miles long on a side. In fact the entire site of the towers was only 16 acres.

i mean, an air bag in a car crash doesn't have a lot of mass, and yet it can contain a HUGE amount of impact force.


Yes, the airbag is designed specifically to inflate and contain the air for a set period of time. The air through which the towers were falling would not have much constraint. I also contend that the structure would be experiencing some damage ahead of the exteriorly visible collapse as the impacts transmitted shock down the columns.

QUOTE
will you also dismiss as insignifigant the upward resistance provided by air trapped by the glass, concrete and steel?


That would account for the sideways blowing out at many floors of dust and smoke since some of that air would be forced down elevator shafts. Yes this would offer some resistance but IMHO neither the aerodynamic drag nor the pressure of forcing air out of the floors would appreciably slow the huge mass of the buildings.
I admit that I cannot offer a full calculation of the drag. After several floors it would get very complicated though as the 'shape' of the falling mass would be quite irregular by then.

Sorry I cannot give you an answer as to the Cd of a flat rectangle of concrete.

yesitdid
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 19 2005, 07:49 PM)
Foxx was trying to imply that the hydraulic press was LARGE, even though the written description of its location was a "SMALL machine shop" (and not a business but just for maint), he then posts pictures of HUGE PRODUCTION hydraulic presses and then adds that they didn't do light stuff, they were working on pulling the heads of 2500 TON chillers. Now EXCUSE me, but once again he certainly APPEARS to be trying to make their job BIGGER than it really is. At one point he was claiming they worked on the Elevators but I suggested to him that OTIS might look dimly upon others messing with their equipment (Every OTIS elevator is a CUSTOM install)

Arthur

Weren't Otis people on site trying to get some elevators going in the towers too. I recall reading that the firefighters had to do some quick talking to keep them on the job.
Guest
QUOTE (yesitdid+Dec 19 2005, 07:17 PM)
[QUOTE=gnotone,Dec 19 2005, 06:46 PM]
Odd that in the entire fall of a building largely constructed of steel, no matter what caused it to fall, eyewitnesses do not mention a clanging noise.

Thin things make high pitched sounds, you know that this is due to their dimensions being small and therefore the fundamentals of the vibrations being short wavelength right?

So in a 30 foot long chunk of steel we can assume that one fundamental of the sound would be related to the length of that piece. A 30 foot wavelength sound at sea level is about 30 hertz(+/-) and 30 hertz would be a BOOM rather than a CLANG.

helicopters purposely flying in the smoke. like they didn't want to be seen. and for every one in the smoke, there is another one flying in plain sight. anyone hears a helicopter and looks up, and the source of the sound is obvious. yet, they are only half right. there is a lot of half truth involved with 911. a whole lot.

Oh, stop , your breaking me up laugh.gif


You sound like Foxx. Look NIST is trying to say that the columns are teeny even though the dimensions are printed now you give us, look up in the air, they are trying to hide helicopters in plain sight. So pray tell, what would be the evil purpose of said helicopters?

Do you find that fellow workers try to keep you off certain topics of discussion? Do you take that as proof that some of them are agents planted to keep an eye on you? ph34r.gif

i never said the helicopters were evil or good. you did. i only reported what anyone can clearly see in the 911 eyewitness video.

you are absolutely right about the fundamental and the overtones. however, it is more than a little misleading.

30 hz is a frequency felt more than heard by the human ear. we are much more sensitive to mids and mid highs. (psychoacoustics theory indicates the approaching sounds of danger, like rustling leaves and snapping twigs have tuned our hearing through evolution)

a. not all the pieces were thirty ft. in length
b. giant gongs and bells do not go thud. you hear the overtones more than the fundamental, but the CHARACTER of the sound is the same.

these metallic sounds had to have been produced, however, something mysterious was masking them. (i actually here some at the initiation of the first collapse from the video ataken under the tower.)

i also notice that there are two frames near the end of that video that reveal a blaring white light at ground level, when there is nothing but a cloud of dust surrounding the camera. it is much bigger than the sun would appear through clouds, if that's going to be the shill line for that 'anomoly'. there is also a dropout of high end at the same time, that indicates either a microphone diaphram physically compressed by SPL(most likely), or a transistor that is saturated in the input preamp circuit(unlikely,because the distortion itself would have high frequencies). that must have been some loud sound to affect the cameras microphone so adversely after it managed to record the majority of the collapse without TOO much distortion.
romero
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 19 2005, 07:59 PM)

They heard what they thought an EXPLOSION would sound like. Listen to the CD of the Hudson building to HEAR the difference between a CD and the WTC tower. High Explosives, designed to cut steel, make a VERY SHARP report. I've yet to hear one of those on any of the Videos.

Secondly, a CD would require HUNDREDS if not thousands of these to go off, I've heard NOTHING like that on any of the videos.

You didn't see a SQUIB go off. A squib goes off SIMULTANEOUSLY with the HE that it is designed to detonate. Thus you would never actually see a squib, unless of course it failed to set off its HE. No HE damage is seen in any video. Seeing some ejecta and ASSUMING it is a squib is like being in Texas, hearing hoof beats behind you, and assuming its a Zebra.

The ONLY report I have seen of molten metal definitely comes from a less than credible source. What is interesting though is NO REPORTS and NO PICTURES of a big hunk of solidified metal have been shown as it was removed from the WTC site.

What is even more mystifying is what you think a pool of molten metal would indicate?

Arthur

if the towers can fall without the assistance of explosions, than why do you now contend that hundreds of charges would be needed?

the towers were allready damaged.

there was evidence of steel corroded by chemical reaction(fema). thermite reactions do not need to be explosive. steel can be weakened more slowly. you know this. why aren't you using this knowledge?

explosions underground are very well dampened, and the sharp report would be well masked.

a tower collapsing on itself by spending increasing amounts of energy should have a sound envelope with similiar energetic proerties, i.e starting small and ramping up. that's not what the soundwave looks like.

some of the squibs are far below the collapse region. misfired explosives, NO DOUBT.
oops!
i forgot to indicate which video. the one from underneath tower one. first it shows firemen, and then they all look up as the building begins to fall, they watch it fall, and then have to run. the cameraman points the camera back towards the collapse as he is running away.

i assume everyone here has seen this video.
yesitdid
QUOTE (manifespo+Dec 19 2005, 06:40 PM)
It's been awhile since I posted in this monstrously simple thread. (two just opposing forces of truth and disinfo). In this post, I contain commentary to both the inconsistent yesitdidn't and the fearsome but fallacious Guest.  My thoughts are in bold.

QUOTE (yesitdid+Dec 19 2005, 05:02 PM)
QUOTE (Guest+Dec 19 2005, 07:23 AM)

if freefall in a vacuum is 9.22 seconds for the towers, might we remember that they didn't fall in a vacuum? 

You are right, they did not fall in a vacuum.  Instead, they exploded onto the ground.

one acre of floor space is a lot of area for air to buck up against.  never mind the welds and bolts, air alone would slow the collapse of the buildings, much the same as it slows the fall of anything that has surface area.

So you are saying the towers in real conditions would fall SLOWER in free fall than in a vacuum?   This is true, all other things equal.

and, with that in mind, why didn't these towers fall down a long time ago?  there was nothing but air holding them up, apparently.


Nothing but air, what the hell are you talking about? There was hundreds of steel columns, reinforced and packed with concrete and other structure materials. Don't they exert little stronger upward force than air?

If an object is allowed to fall on Earth it accelerates in obedience to Newton's formula
a=F/m. But this will happen only until the force due to air resistance equals that of gravity. The drag force is (Cd*rho*A*V^2 )/2
Cd= coefficient of drag
rho=density of air
V=velocity
A=area in the plane perpendicular to the direction of travel

So when ma=(Cd*rho*A*V^2)/2 the object will be at terminal velocity. V at the outset will be zero and will increase with time.

This would NOT happen in the WTC collapse. NOT EVEN CLOSE. The building was a MASSIVE object, and fell only ~1300 feet. The air drag is MINISCULE compared to Earth's pull on the WTC towers!

We can regard mass and area as constant. Therefore velocity will have to get quite large before the right side of the equation approachs the value of the left side of the equation for a if there is a high value of m. The velocity will be dependant on the distance fallen.

We can see that heavier objects will have a larger terminal velocity than ones with the same area but lighter and therfore take longer to reach that terminal velocity than lighter objects of the same dimensions.

That is not a true statement. Aristotle was wrong about the same issue. This is basic physics knowledge- heavy and light objects fall at the same acceleration!- all other things equal.
THE DRAG force will NEVER even come close to reaching the force of gravity. The force of gravity on a 3,000,000,000 kilogram tower tower is exactly 21,500,000,000 Newtons. Do you really think the air drag force was even .01% of that gravity field?

Its not a matter of mass, necessarily- its a matter of drag force.



The force due to air resistance would be minimal compared to the force due to gravity and would not slow such massive objects appreciably over a distance of only 1300 feet.

^^ Exactly



I missed this post first time round.

This would NOT happen in the WTC collapse. NOT EVEN CLOSE. The building was a MASSIVE object, and fell only ~1300 feet. The air drag is MINISCULE compared to Earth's pull on the WTC towers!

That is what I said.

This is basic physics knowledge- heavy and light objects fall at the same acceleration!- all other things equal.

In a vacuum and what we are discussing is that fact that it is not a vacuum amnd that there will be a countering force due to drag that will depend not on the mass of the object but on the viscosity of the air, the shape of the object and velocity of the object.


Exactly


yes, as I stated. Why are you seemingly argueing with me while stating the same thing I stated?
adoucette
QUOTE (romero+)
thermite reactions do not need to be explosive. steel can be weakened more slowly. you know this. why aren't you using this knowledge?


Please explain how you use Thermite to cut a VERTICAL piece of steel framing?

Arthur
adoucette
QUOTE (yesitdid+)
yes, as I stated. Why are you seemingly argueing with me while stating the same thing I stated?


I was thinking that just typing DITTO, would have saved him a bunch of typing.

laugh.gif

Arthur
adoucette
QUOTE (romero+)
if the towers can fall without the assistance of explosions, than why do you now contend that hundreds of charges would be needed?

the towers were allready damaged.


The conspiracy folks all claim the towers WOULDN'T have collapsed, thus you need essentially the same number of explosives.

Additionally, they couldn't be near where the planes were "supposed" to impact

Arthur
adoucette
QUOTE (romero+)
explosions underground are very well dampened, and the sharp report would be well masked.


Yes, but workers underground when the plane hit didn't hear them, and secondly, an underground only explosion wouldn't have caused the "top down" collapse we saw. As the conspiracy guys like to say, they had to go off, in a nifty timed sequence, to make it appear as if it was collapsing via gravity. This would appear to be much harder to do than your typical CD.

Arthur
yesitdid
QUOTE
you are absolutely right about the fundamental and the overtones. however, it is more than a little misleading.

30 hz is a frequency felt more than heard by the human ear. we are much more sensitive to mids and mid highs. (psychoacoustics theory indicates the approaching sounds of danger, like rustling leaves and snapping twigs have tuned our hearing through evolution)

a. not all the pieces were thirty ft. in length
b. giant gongs and bells do not go thud. you hear the overtones more than the fundamental, but the CHARACTER of the sound is the same.



I was taking the larger sized surviving pieces into account. Yes smaller ones would be making sounds more within the range of noraml hearing. In the case of the 30 foot columns they would also be producing over tones as well which would be more audible. In fact as you well know nothing producing a sound in the collapses would be producing a simple tone.

Cymbals, gongs and bells are a special case as well where the object is suspended and isolated in order to keep all damping to a minimum. Hardly the case in the collapses. Hit a small bell with a rod while holding your hand around the bell and it will go thump rather than ting. the easier to damp out vibrations are the higher frequency ones.
commondreamer
Yes, but workers underground when the plane hit didn't hear them,
[QUOTE]

Umm wrong

9/11 hero, William Rodriguez, who was the last person out of the north tower, states that there was a massive explosion in the North Tower BEFORE the plane hit:

"When I heard the sound of the explosion, the floor beneath my feet vibrated, the walls started cracking and it everything started shaking

"Seconds after the first massive explosion below in the basement still rattled the floor, I hear another explosion from way above... Although I was unaware at the time, this was the airplane hitting the tower, it occurred moments after the first explosion.

"I know there were explosives placed below the trade center.

"I have tried to tell my story to everybody, but nobody wants to listen. It is very strange what is going on here in supposedly the most democratic country in the world. In my home country of Puerto Rico and all the other Latin American countries, I have been allowed to tell my story uncensored. But here, I can’t even say a word.

"I met with the 9/11 Commission behind closed doors and they essentially discounted everything I said regarding the use of explosives to bring down the north tower.

"And I contacted NIST previously four times without a response. Finally, this week I asked them before they came up with their conclusion that jet fuel brought down the towers, if they ever considered my statements or the statements of any of the other survivors who heard the explosions. They just stared at me with blank faces and didn’t have any answers."

Link to quotes:
http://www.arcticbeacon.com/articles/artic...18131/28031.htm
yesitdid
QUOTE
i never said the helicopters were evil or good. you did. i only reported what anyone can clearly see in the 911 eyewitness video.


You implied a clandestine operation of these helicopters and later spoke of the party to throw after the evil people were ousted.

Sorry if those on the helicopters were not attempting something evil but were supposedly operating at the whim of evil people then what was their purpose. Hey let fly anything that comes to mind, its your topic.
yesitdid
QUOTE


9/11 hero, William Rodriguez, who was the last person out of the north tower, states that there was a massive explosion in the North Tower BEFORE the plane hit:

"When I heard the sound of the explosion, the floor beneath my feet vibrated, the walls started cracking and it everything started shaking

"Seconds after the first massive explosion below in the basement still rattled the floor, I hear another explosion from way above... Although I was unaware at the time, this was the airplane hitting the tower, it occurred moments after the first explosion.

"I know there were explosives placed below the trade center.

"I have tried to tell my story to everybody, but nobody wants to listen. It is very strange what is going on here in supposedly the most democratic country in the world. In my home country of Puerto Rico and all the other Latin American countries, I have been allowed to tell my story uncensored. But here, I can’t even say a word.

"I met with the 9/11 Commission behind closed doors and they essentially discounted everything I said regarding the use of explosives to bring down the north tower.

"And I contacted NIST previously four times without a response. Finally, this week I asked them before they came up with their conclusion that jet fuel brought down the towers, if they ever considered my statements or the statements of any of the other survivors who heard the explosions. They just stared at me with blank faces and didn’t have any answers."

Link to quotes:
http://www.arcticbeacon.com/articles/artic...18131/28031.htm

You are not getting it?

How does W.R. know that the shaking he feels came from below is not the aircraft hitting and the shock being transmitted to the foundation and reflected back up?

He doesn't.

He is also a litte disingenuous in saying he had tried to tell his story to everyone. When he was interviewed by NIST he speaks of the shoddy way management treated maintenance, locked fire doors and such. If his big story was bombs going off in the basement one would think he would start with that rather than a diatribe about the management contribution to the deaths of people in the stairwells.

For a guy who claims that he "can't say a word" he does an awful lot of talking. No one has prevented him from doing anything in the USA that he has done in Puerto Rico
Mel
QUOTE (Schneibster+Dec 18 2005, 10:55 PM)
Well, the average IQ IS 100- I suppose SOMEONE has to help keep it down.

You're doing fine with this...keep up the good work.

Just admit you lied already, will ya. Show a little moral fiber (or should I say 'fibber').
fourier
QUOTE (yesitdid+Dec 19 2005, 09:00 PM)
QUOTE
you are absolutely right about the fundamental and the overtones. however, it is more than a little misleading.

30 hz is a frequency felt more than heard by the human ear. we are much more sensitive to mids and mid highs. (psychoacoustics theory indicates the approaching sounds of danger, like rustling leaves and snapping twigs have tuned our hearing through evolution)

a. not all the pieces were thirty ft. in length
b. giant gongs and bells do not go thud. you hear the overtones more than the fundamental, but the CHARACTER of the sound is the same.



I was taking the larger sized surviving pieces into account. Yes smaller ones would be making sounds more within the range of noraml hearing. In the case of the 30 foot columns they would also be producing over tones as well which would be more audible. In fact as you well know nothing producing a sound in the collapses would be producing a simple tone.

Cymbals, gongs and bells are a special case as well where the object is suspended and isolated in order to keep all damping to a minimum. Hardly the case in the collapses. Hit a small bell with a rod while holding your hand around the bell and it will go thump rather than ting. the easier to damp out vibrations are the higher frequency ones.

while it is true that there would be sound dampening effects, it is also true that the towers were mostly air by volume. there was lots of steel literally flying around.

the steel that the concrete was poured onto was 18 x whatever, but the concrete was poured all the way around(perhaps done in sections, but still the four inch plates of concrete are guesstimatively acting as one object. they ARE the 'pancakes', aren't they?)

and how about that sound energy over time envelope? why doesn't it start small and ramp up smoothly to match the dissipation of the gravitational energy?

it starts with a bang, boys and then the sound remains steady, and then all of a sudden there is another HUGE percussive(about halfway through the collapse) and then that ramps down a little as a few more sharp spikes pop up.

i'm sorry, shills, but the soundwave does not match nist or fema's lies.
Mel
Arthur, YesItDid, and Schneibster:
I really do want to put together a new CD company, and I am going to use the FEMA and NIST reports as the basis for my business plan. I simply need to add a new introduction , and slap a fresh coat of paint on the front page entitled 'Mel's CD Inc. - Business Plan".

I will be taking this plan to some banks to get initial financing...should be an easy sell. But I will also need to get insurance, and I believe this will be a much harder sell. Would you boys be willing to back me on this when the insurance companies don't find the information in the documents compelling? I will, of course, need your real names and phone numbers so that they may reach you for your professional view-points on the safety of my plan (we already know Schneibster's identity, so he's exempt).

I anxiously await your replies, as I'd like to get crackin' on this.
commondreamer
QUOTE (yesitdid+Dec 19 2005, 09:16 PM)

You are not getting it?

How does W.R. know that the shaking he feels came from below is not the aircraft hitting and the shock being transmitted to the foundation and reflected back up?


you know that because the explosions he heard and felt were before the plane hit the tower.
chronic smoker
QUOTE (yesitdid+Dec 19 2005, 09:08 PM)
QUOTE
i never said the helicopters were evil or good. you did. i only reported what anyone can clearly see in the 911 eyewitness video.


You implied a clandestine operation of these helicopters and later spoke of the party to throw after the evil people were ousted.

Sorry if those on the helicopters were not attempting something evil but were supposedly operating at the whim of evil people then what was their purpose. Hey let fly anything that comes to mind, its your topic.

how much do you have to love smoke to fly through a huge, sooty cloud of it on a perfectly clear blue sky day?
what were the two flashes coming from the helicopter that hovered over wtc seconds before it collapsed? it flies to the building through the smoke, and then hovers over the tower. there are two flashes, and then the helicopter speeds away.
what was the 'mission accomplished' heard on the emergency bands at that moment? a high pitched whistle was heard before the collapse.

i just saw it this morning before i went to bed. had a hard time finding .avi codecs and whatnot. i'll have more observations to share with the wonderfully freindly and open scientific community here, soon, i'm sure, now that i can watch this AMAZING FOOTAGE over and over.

thank you sooooooo much, 911eyewitness.



commondreamer
QUOTE (Mel+Dec 19 2005, 09:50 PM)
Arthur, YesItDid, and Schneibster:
I really do want to put together a new CD company, and I am going to use the FEMA and NIST reports as the basis for my business plan. I simply need to add a new introduction , and slap a fresh coat of paint on the front page entitled 'Mel's CD Inc. - Business Plan".

I will be taking this plan to some banks to get initial financing...should be an easy sell. But I will also need to get insurance, and I believe this will be a much harder sell. Would you boys be willing to back me on this when the insurance companies don't find the information in the documents compelling? I will, of course, need your real names and phone numbers so that they may reach you for your professional view-points on the safety of my plan (we already know Schneibster's identity, so he's exempt).

I anxiously await your replies, as I'd like to get crackin' on this.

Actually it sounds like a very profitable business plan. Seems now all we need as in WTC 7, is burning fax machines and desks, some diesel fuel and BAM perfectly falling 47 ft buildings into their own footprint at free fall speed will occur at a fraction of the cost of having to place explosives throughout the building


But then again Larry Silverstein admits on national TV that he had the building destroyed via CD at 5:20 pm on 9/11, which is proof, an admition of guilt, but not scientific
yesitdid
QUOTE (Mel+Dec 19 2005, 09:50 PM)
Arthur, YesItDid, and Schneibster:
I really do want to put together a new CD company, and I am going to use the FEMA and NIST reports as the basis for my business plan. I simply need to add a new introduction , and slap a fresh coat of paint on the front page entitled 'Mel's CD Inc. - Business Plan".

I will be taking this plan to some banks to get initial financing...should be an easy sell. But I will also need to get insurance, and I believe this will be a much harder sell. Would you boys be willing to back me on this when the insurance companies don't find the information in the documents compelling? I will, of course, need your real names and phone numbers so that they may reach you for your professional view-points on the safety of my plan (we already know Schneibster's identity, so he's exempt).

I anxiously await your replies, as I'd like to get crackin' on this.

You're on your own.

This type of demolition seems a bit unreliable, messy and unpredictable. Columns that get tossed 400 feet from the building undergoing demolition would cause problems and for that matter the destruction of all buildings within 100 feet seems a little more than what your insurance company would see fit to cover you for. safety plan? My suggestion would be that all persons within a radius equal to twice the height of the building be evacuated and all buildings that are to remain intact be moved away until after the demolition.

While it is apparent that eventually the building will come down you won't be able to say when.

Go for it though but my hope would be that you do not get a contract in any city I happen to be in at the time.

I have a better name for it , Call it "Pull It Uncontrolled Demolitions". That way you can actually make the term "Pull It" a demolition term for dropping a building straight down.
commondreamer

QUOTE
I have a better name for it , Call it "Pull It Uncontrolled Demolitions". That way you can actually make the term "Pull It" a demolition term for dropping a building straight down.



Hmm well yes it is a term wildly used in the CD business everyday

In the same documentary, America Rebuilds, a clean up worker at ground zero uses the term "pull" when preparing for the controlled demolition of Building 6:

"... we're getting ready to pull building six."

Audio: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/pull-it2.mp3


Or perhaps the firefighters telling people to get back as they are about to PULL building 7

Excerpt from a radio interview with Indira Singh, ground zero rescue worker and 9/11 whistleblower. She says that she and others were told to move away from Building 7, by persons that she thought were members of the FDNY, because they were "going to have to bring it down":

Radio host Bonnie Falkner: How long did you work as an emergency medical technician and exactly what is it that you were doing (at ground zero)?

Indira Singh: ...when I got there we were setting up triage sites (at ground zero), close, very close to the area. The triage site that I was setting up was behind, well, to the east of Building 7 where Building 7 came down...
...we were setting up triages as close to the pile as possible… so what we were doing was setting up different kinds of stations… IV stations, cardiac stations, wound stations, burn stations ...just trying to have an organized space. What happened with that particular triage site is that pretty soon afternoon, after mid-day on 9/11 we had to evacuate that because they told us Building 7 was coming down... I do believe that they brought Building 7 down... By noon or one o'clock they told us we had to move from that triage site up to Pace University a little further away because Building 7 was going to come down or being brought down.

Bonnie Falkner: Did they actually use the word "brought" down and who was it that was telling you this?

Indira Singh: The fire department... the fire department and they did use the word "we're going to have to bring it down."

The entire interview can be listened to at the link below. The excerpts from above can be found approximately 10 minutes into the interview.

Guns & Butter Radio interview w/ Indira Singh hosted by Bonnie Falkner - April 27th 2005:
http://tinyurl.com/7dww8


# "I remember getting a call from the, er, fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, 'We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it.' And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse."
Larry Silverstein,


commondreamer


QUOTE
Bonnie Falkner: Did they actually use the word "brought" down and who was it that was telling you this?

Indira Singh: The fire department... the fire department and they did use the word "we're going to have to bring it down."


So he said that we are going to have to bring it down,,, wahhhh. yep that is correct, Silverstein admitts it twice and firefighters were being informed to get people back because the building is "being brought down"

I think that admittion of guilt is the biggest proof that we can have that this was an inside job. Bigger than the frequency of falling metal debris,
commondreamer
QUOTE
While it is apparent that eventually the building will come down you won't be able to say when.


Umm no it is not, as no steel structure before or after 9/11 has ever fallen due to fire. So no it is not apparent. Only those buildings that were owned by Silverstein collapsed.

Building 6 is closer to WTC 1 and 2 than 7, but Silverstein did not have an insurance policy on that building, so of course it does not collapse, even though it was much more damaged than 7.
dreaming in common
QUOTE (commondreamer+Dec 19 2005, 10:54 PM)
QUOTE
Bonnie Falkner: Did they actually use the word "brought" down and who was it that was telling you this?

Indira Singh: The fire department... the fire department and they did use the word "we're going to have to bring it down."


So he said that we are going to have to bring it down,,, wahhhh. yep that is correct, Silverstein admitts it twice and firefighters were being informed to get people back because the building is "being brought down"

I think that admittion of guilt is the biggest proof that we can have that this was an inside job. Bigger than the frequency of falling metal debris,

while i agree that there is a massive potential of truth ready to crush the lie, this thread is for discussing the physics of the collapse.

every little bit counts as we weaken the structure of the illuminati info pyramid by slowly removing blocks from the bottom. kinda like jenga, except there is no winner when everything collapses. only losers. we all lose.

sad.
yesitdid
QUOTE (commondreamer+Dec 19 2005, 10:59 PM)
QUOTE
While it is apparent that eventually the building will come down you won't be able to say when.


Umm no it is not, as no steel structure before or after 9/11 has ever fallen due to fire. So no it is not apparent. Only those buildings that were owned by Silverstein collapsed.

Building 6 is closer to WTC 1 and 2 than 7, but Silverstein did not have an insurance policy on that building, so of course it does not collapse, even though it was much more damaged than 7.

They may have "pulled" building 6 since the term "pull" is used when the demolition is designed to make the building fall away from other structures rather than go straight down.

Bwahahahahaha..
Building 6 was a write off. Does that mean Silverstein lost a pile of money on #6 (or whoever owned it?)

The term "pull it" IS NOT a common demolition term for a straight down collpase, the term for that is to "drop" the building.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
While it is apparent that eventually the building will come down you won't be able to say when.


Umm no it is not, as no steel structure before or after 9/11 has ever fallen due to fire. So no it is not apparent. Only those buildings that were owned by Silverstein collapsed.

Building 6 is closer to WTC 1 and 2 than 7, but Silverstein did not have an insurance policy on that building, so of course it does not collapse, even though it was much more damaged than 7.

They may have "pulled" building 6 since the term "pull" is used when the demolition is designed to make the building fall away from other structures rather than go straight down.

Bwahahahahaha..
Building 6 was a write off. Does that mean Silverstein lost a pile of money on #6 (or whoever owned it?)

The term "pull it" IS NOT a common demolition term for a straight down collpase, the term for that is to "drop" the building.



I do believe that they brought Building 7 down... By noon or one o'clock they told us we had to move from that triage site up to Pace University a little further away because Building 7 was going to come down or being brought down.

Bonnie Falkner: Did they actually use the word "brought" down and who was it that was telling you this?

Indira Singh: The fire department... the fire department and they did use the word "we're going to have to bring it down."


So the fact that she has two conflicting statements doesn't bother you? In the first sentence she says they were either going to bring it down or it was going to fall on its own, then when pressed and knowing she has said that she believes that it was deliberatly brought down she decides to say that the fire dept told her they were going to "bring" it down. Nice!

I think the idea that any fire dept is in charge of actually setting charges to demolish buildings is a new thing. What courses on demolition , on explosive placement does the NYFD offer to its members?

yesitdid
QUOTE (dreaming in common+Dec 19 2005, 11:08 PM)
this thread is for discussing the physics of the collapse.


Sorry, sad.gif I too have called for this on more than one occasion whenever someone tries to bring political motivations into this thread.
adoucette
QUOTE (chronic smoker+)
how much do you have to love smoke to fly through a huge, sooty cloud of it on a perfectly clear blue sky day?
what were the two flashes coming from the helicopter that hovered over wtc seconds before it collapsed? it flies to the building through the smoke, and then hovers over the tower. there are two flashes, and then the helicopter speeds away.
what was the 'mission accomplished' heard on the emergency bands at that moment? a high pitched whistle was heard before the collapse.


I can't say as I've seen all the videos or the one you are referencing, but in one of the videos posted earlier in the thread, they had the helos labeled by number and use the phrase "mission accomplished".

In that video, it was clear to me that the helos went behind the smoke cloud, not IN it.

There are several reasons for this, one, helo pilots fly almost exclusively by VISUAL flight rules and none of the helos up were the few that can be flown by instruments. Inside the smoke cloud would be quite turbulent and thus the combination of no visibility and turbulence would most likely result in loss of control. Helos have NO natural stability, they have to be flown at all times.

Inside the smoke cloud would be toxic to the people AND the engine, you would run a serious risk of an engine failure, which in a helo is a generally BAD idea.

While SOMEONE on an emergency band might have said "mission accomplished" there is no way to relate that to the chopper.

Finally the failure began at the impact location, there is nothing a helo could deliver that would not be obvious when it went off.

Arthur
adoucette
QUOTE (commondreamer+Dec 19 2005, 10:54 PM)
I think that admittion of guilt is the biggest proof that we can have that this was an inside job. Bigger than the frequency of falling metal debris,

You know, for a multi-millionaire, he sure is stupid, I mean to blow the biggest coverup ever on National TV, not once, but twice.

laugh.gif

You guys are REALLY getting desperate.

Arthur
a deuce coup
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 19 2005, 11:38 PM)
QUOTE (chronic smoker+)
how much do you have to love smoke to fly through a huge, sooty cloud of it on a perfectly clear blue sky day?
what were the two flashes coming from the helicopter that hovered over wtc seconds before it collapsed? it flies to the building through the smoke, and then hovers over the tower. there are two flashes, and then the helicopter speeds away.
what was the 'mission accomplished' heard on the emergency bands at that moment? a high pitched whistle was heard before the collapse.


I can't say as I've seen all the videos or the one you are referencing, but in one of the videos posted earlier in the thread, they had the helos labeled by number and use the phrase "mission accomplished".

In that video, it was clear to me that the helos went behind the smoke cloud, not IN it.

There are several reasons for this, one, helo pilots fly almost exclusively by VISUAL flight rules and none of the helos up were the few that can be flown by instruments. Inside the smoke cloud would be quite turbulent and thus the combination of no visibility and turbulence would most likely result in loss of control. Helos have NO natural stability, they have to be flown at all times.

Inside the smoke cloud would be toxic to the people AND the engine, you would run a serious risk of an engine failure, which in a helo is a generally BAD idea.

While SOMEONE on an emergency band might have said "mission accomplished" there is no way to relate that to the chopper.

Finally the failure began at the impact location, there is nothing a helo could deliver that would not be obvious when it went off.

Arthur

well, i said 'in the smoke', and yet they were not always completely in it. they flew along the edge of it, just enough that they were in a lighter air/smoke mixture.
however, they clearly hovered over WTC1, directly in the smoke plume, let out two bright flashes, and then flew off.
you know, the frame rate of the video made me think they were photoshopped in(you know, for sensational profiteering ala batboy), but, i checked the collapse , video from under wtc1, and the chopper is flying away, right where it should be. the video is amateurish.
sbut honest. this is no hollywood production. just straight footage from across the river, in real time. no editing room deciding what you should and shouldbno, once again, as you've pointed out, flying a helicopter through smoke isn't wise, comfortable, nor fun.
so, why did they do it, then? because, it is clear from the video evidence that they did. more than once.

why does white smoke rise up at the base of the towers just before collapse. this can also be seen in both the video from below, and the video from across the river.
the smoke is white. it is not the same smoke that is coming out the top of the building.

the video, is available at 911eyewitness.com. it can be downloaded using bittorrent or a browser, or if you would like, a DVD can be ordered on line for twenty bucks. i had a helluva a time getting it to work(i use an older mac for surfing, and had to keep transfering stuff to the EVIL PC in the backroom). once again.

and before anyone shills it out, ....you CAN download it for free, so it's not some mad barnum and bailey sucker trolling exercise in profit.

adoucette
QUOTE
so, why did they do it, then? because, it is clear from the video evidence that they did. more than once.


My first guess would be potential rescue attempts, to see if they could get to the roof and to see if anyone was on the roof.

I'll check out the video, if I could find out how to download a free copy.

Arthur
Guest
"The intelligence agencies that do the crimes try to control the counter-community's response by infiltrating moles that infect it with large falsehoods and impossible-to-prove technical questions (micro-analysis)."

Michael Green in his analysis and criticism of "Loose Change."

adoucette, YID etc appear willing to waste their time and everyone elses arguing the minutae of the collapse, WHY?

The goverment has spent 10s of millions of dollars and is still, after 4 years, unable to produce ANY explanation let alone a reasonable explanation. WHY?

Simple - the investigations were prescribed, they were charged with explaining the collapses in light of the plane crashes and subsequent fires, they were not allowed to consider the mass of evidence, INCLUDING PHYSICS, which overwhelmingly points to explosives. WHY?

It is as clear as day that the adoucettes and YIDs are not in the least interested in the truth of the matter or they would acknowledge the failure of NIST etc and support the call for an independent inquiry.

After looking at the evidence presented on this thread alone only imbeciles or the emotionally unstable could deny the case for explosives, yet these characters are willing to spend an inordinate amount of time posting drivel. In my opinion they should be treated as the time wasters they patently are otherwise we are playing their game and thats the game most want stopped.

NEVER in history has a steel high rise building collapsed due to fire

Sept 11 - 3 buildings collapse AS IN controlled demolition - fire suspected.

Multiple eyewitnesses say explosions.

Multiple firemen evidence says explosives

Video evidence says explosives.

PHYSICS says explosives

NIST cant explain but dont consider explosives.

No Einstein type brain required

"It is already possible to know, beyond a reasonable doubt, one very important thing: the destruction of the World Trade Center was an inside job, orchestrated by terrorists within our own government."

Dr David Ray Griffin
limp noodle
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 20 2005, 12:42 AM)
QUOTE
so, why did they do it, then? because, it is clear from the video evidence that they did. more than once.


My first guess would be potential rescue attempts, to see if they could get to the roof and to see if anyone was on the roof.

I'll check out the video though.

Arthur

they(police helicopters) were ordered NOT to attempt any rescue.

any idea what the two bright flashes are? maybe it's more STATIC DISCHARGE. yeah, yeah. that's it. static discharge.

you know, i can't believe that this JUST occured to me, as i've been thinking about the whole thing for FOUR YEARS, now...

i always assumed anyone in a firemen or policemen's uniform was indeed a policeman. i realise, now, that many were probably imposters from FEMA and the NWO.
adoucette
QUOTE (limp noodle+Dec 20 2005, 12:51 AM)
they(police helicopters) were ordered NOT to attempt any rescue.

any idea what the two bright flashes are? maybe it's more STATIC DISCHARGE. yeah, yeah. that's it. static discharge.

you know, i can't believe that this JUST occured to me, as i've been thinking about the whole thing for FOUR YEARS, now...

i always assumed anyone in a firemen or policemen's uniform was indeed a policeman. i realise, now, that many were probably imposters from FEMA and the NWO.

I'm really not surprised, it looks like it would be dicey at best.

The helos that are seen might have been BEFORE they were ordered to not try rescues, you know, checking out the conditions from a safe distance.

The sun was low in the sky, are the reflections no more than that? (again, I have not seen the video so this might be silly)

Arthur
silver stein, the holy grail
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 19 2005, 11:43 PM)
You know, for a multi-millionaire, he sure is stupid, I mean to blow the biggest coverup ever on National TV, not once, but twice.

laugh.gif

You guys are REALLY getting desperate.

Arthur

indeed, overconfidence is a brilliant egotist's biggest enemy.

also, criminals have a pyschiatric need to confess, and a desire to be caught.

this is not physics, mind you.

however, if someone says something is going to blow up, and then there are explosive noises, things flying into the air, flashes and booms, i would naturally assume they were right.

if someone says they're going to 'pull it', and it will be 'brought down', and then it looks like a textbook controlled demolition, i'm going to assume that it was controlled demolition.
6.6 seconds fall time for tower seven. freefall. no cap, no piston, no plunger, NO SOUP FOR YOU!

how did bush see something on teevee that wasn't on teevee, ie. the first plane, flight 11, flying into the first tower, tower one? (this IS physics, because it is physically impossible without a time machine. in fact, there isn't really ANY good footage of the first strike, even now. what did bush see? besides an upside down kindergarten book, that is?)

why did rumsfeld say the terrorists used planes AND missiles?
Foxx
Test - will be back later.

I see the Yidster and 'Arthur' are on a real roll today.

They must be under a deadline to refute and stop this thread by Christmas (or no bonus) biggrin.gif
Schneibster
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 20 2005, 12:42 AM)
QUOTE
so, why did they do it, then? because, it is clear from the video evidence that they did. more than once.


My first guess would be potential rescue attempts, to see if they could get to the roof and to see if anyone was on the roof.

I'll check out the video, if I could find out how to download a free copy.

Arthur

Hahahaha, any questions? Now WHO'S a shill?

You ain't lived 'til some idiot shows up who's making $0.50 per person he gets to click on some advertising link invades your chat room.
Sing-Maltida
Hi Anonymous Guest,

I must declare that I represent neither Physorg nor FBI or any Govt. agency.

Prove me wrong that most of the participants here are not recycling one another's garbage. Many seem to be on a feeding frenzy to HANG BUSH. But as I say, we are giving too much credit to him concerning a conspiracy theory. Even Collin Powell (HIS SECRETARY OF STATE) found it beneath him to want to be associated with a stupid person like BUSH. There is no doubt that BUSH is a crook, and he makes no apology that he is one. When someone has been exposed as stupid (read Stupid White Man by Michael Moore) further flogging is not going to make him any cleverer. My suggestion is to herald it under the caption "SACK BUSH" and not under a pretentious title of BASIC SCIENCE. It is plain dishonesty.

To continue this thread under the name of SCIENCE, you are insulting the credibility of Physorg and the intelligence of the other participants in this forum.
Schneibster has insinuated that the average IQ of the participants in this thread is below a 100. I must confess that mine is below 50 to even continue to read this thread.

Your below average IQ fan of this thread.

Sing-Maltida.
Coastal
One of the things that the CT's always seem to ignore when speaking of the NYPD helicopters in the sky that day.....
--------

....However, the police did. Hovering over the North Tower following the collapse of the South Tower, Detective Timothy Hayes, in his helicopter, Aviation 14, radioed to his dispatcher, "Be advised - just not 100 percent sure - but it does appear that the top of the tower might possibly be leaning at this time." A moment later he continued, "It is confirmed, it is buckling and it is leaning to the south." "Which tower is that?" asked the police dispatcher, "one or two?" "The remaining tower, the North Tower, is leaning to the southwest at this time," Hayes said, "and it appears to be buckling at this time in the southwest corner."

According to Dwyer and Flynn in "102 Minutes," this was the fourth time that police helicopters had broadcast warnings of the ominous conditions atop the towers. Yet that information was confined to the police radio band. For the firefighters in the North Tower, the first indication they had that they were in imminent peril came when police rescue workers suddenly fled past them down the stairwells. Yet, the firefighters had to put their faith in their own chiefs and their judgment, which as it turned out was not founded on any solid information.


http://www.digitaljournalist.org/issue0502/halstead.html
Schneibster
For the terminally lost, "well, you can't argue with me until you have seen the video, OH BY THE WAY IT'S ONLY $19.95" is pretty f**kin obvious, wouldn't you say?
sophis
QUOTE (Sing-Maltida+Dec 20 2005, 02:47 AM)
Hi Anonymous Guest,

I must declare that I represent neither Physorg nor FBI or any Govt. agency.

Prove me wrong that most of the participants here are not recycling one another's garbage. Many seem to be on a feeding frenzy to HANG BUSH. But as I say, we are giving too much credit to him concerning a conspiracy theory. Even Collin Powell (HIS SECRETARY OF STATE) found it beneath him to want to be associated with a stupid person like BUSH. There is no doubt that BUSH is a crook, and he makes no apology that he is one. When someone has been exposed as stupid (read Stupid White Man by Michael Moore) further flogging is not going to make him any cleverer. My suggestion is to herald it under the caption "SACK BUSH" and not under a pretentious title of BASIC SCIENCE. It is plain dishonesty.

To continue this thread under the name of SCIENCE, you are insulting the credibility of Physorg and the intelligence of the other participants in this forum.
Schneibster has insinuated that the average IQ of the participants in this thread is below a 100. I must confess that mine is below 50 to even continue to read this thread.

Your below average IQ fan of this thread.

Sing-Maltida.

well...
thanks everyone for showing such great interest in this basic physics thread.

i really like physics. it's the coolest.

here's some basic physics.

things cannot exist and yet not exist. that is physically impossible in our 3D over time matrix.

there were planes.
there were fireballs and fires.
there were people and politics(a very real source of high speed energy reactions. awwww. they don't teach that one at illuminati thought indoctrination machines?).
there were sounds.
light bounced through the matrix according to the laws of mass and gravity. this was recorded from hundreds, if not thousands of sources.
there were helicopters.
there were flashes of light.
there were HUGE sound energies being produced in the absence of visibly detectable motion.
there are recordings of the sound energy produced by the actions of the towers.
there is a total energy sink.
there were very pointed ninety degree ejections well below the collapse zone.
there was white smoke at the base of the tower.
explosions were reported(these reports exist).
flashes were reported.
israeli 'art students' were arrested.
gag orders were issued to firemen.
evidence was detroyed.

this all happened. i could go on and on with this stuff. just off the top of my head.
i could also start mentioning the reality of neocon/mulism sympathiser/financers, like grover norquist, and the mysterious organisations like the safari club, which show some very strong suadi-american ties, but then, i'd have to do even MORE research into stinking politics, which i hate.

i like physics. so clean. it doesn't lie, once you get the right input.

there was a pattern created by the dynamic interaction of energy conversions. this pattern, although highly chaotic, does have some aspects of predictability with a high degree of accuracy. example. if the towers fell in three seconds, there could be no argument of resistance, as it would be a negative number. of course, advanced computer modelling CAN recreate these scenarios. however, the output is only as good as the input, and in the case of the towers, this data is affected by people and politics(see above) even more than the vast physical complexity.

the complexity of a tower collapse pales compared to the collapse of a society.

i would like to point out that a shill can be aware that he is a shill, or not. some shills are unaware that they have been 'programmed' to do a task. or an already existing position taken by the shill is used by the GRIFTER, who is the real brains behind the GRIFT.
i am not rick, the 911eyewitness guy. rick would have to be a grifter for me to be his shill. he seems like a businessman to me. i thought 'conservatives' LIKED entrepeneurs???

i guess i AM confused.

i haven't even watched the whole movie. i fell asleep at the wheel. it's not easy trying to keep up with a bunch of paid experts. i did watch the whole of the first tower footage, though. simply awesome. i would be a happy shill for this movie. BUY IT! pay rick. he is an american hero.

while i'm at it, i'll shill for the lord of the rings trilogy, too. i didn't think they could do the books justice, but they came damn close.

oh, yeah, and see 'waking life', too. great flick(although it makes me a little dizzy. that animation style is irritating).
schnell!!!
QUOTE (Schneibster+Dec 20 2005, 03:25 AM)
For the terminally lost, "well, you can't argue with me until you have seen the video, OH BY THE WAY IT'S ONLY $19.95" is pretty f**kin obvious, wouldn't you say?

you can download it for free, schnell. it's available for free.

(free)
Foxx
The time each post is made is registered at the top of each post.

I made my above post to check to compare the 'forum time' (what I see listed as the 'posted time' on my screen) with the actual time it is where I am.

This might be different for others, I suppose, depending on whether you can set 'forum posting time' with your own local time?

I haven't checked.

When I posted the above message the 'forum' says the time I posted is 8 hrs ahead of the actual time in my area. (Pacific Time Zone).

Now YID, according to the 'forum times' of your posts (that I see on my machine)... You have made a total of 23 posts over the course of the last 18 hours (since I made my last post yesterday).

That's really got to be some kind of record !

It seems (to me) like a very 'odd' posting schedule...

...for someone to be allegedly 'debating' an issue (which you seem to be 'totally convinced' is 'utter bunk').

This is something that always has struck me as 'odd' about you government theory apologists.

For those (who imply that they are debating with 'idiots' )... you seem to spend an awful lot of your time 'debating with idiots'.

Of course, you may have some psychological reason for spending such an inordinate amount of time conversing with 'idiots'... But I'm trying to understand WHY ANYONE would expend such energy towards such activities. Doesn't make sense (to me).

My apologies to any visiting here that 'believe' there was some POD attached to the WTC planes (or that the planes were holograms).

However... I personally feel that such theories are 'bunk'.

Now I could BE 'wrong' on that issue, but based upon my own 'investigation' (and looking at BOTH sides of those issues) I, PERSONALLY FEEL that those are errors.

Given my belief, I feel it would be a complete WASTE of MY TIME to go to Phil Jayhans 'POD' site and begin 'debating' with some of those there (who are utterly convinced there was a POD)... spending countless hours trying to 'debunk' or refute those die-hard 'believers'.

Prior to my 'conversion' I had never even heard of alternative 'conspiracy theories'.

Consequently, I never went looking for 'alternative conspiracy' sites (or forums).

I do recall Bush stating something to the effect of...

"Conspiracy Theorists are no better than the terrorists who attacked us".

At the time, (although I had no concept of what these 'alternative conspiracists' were stating), I recall thinking to myself...

"That's an 'odd' statement for the POTUS to be making publicly? Obviously anyone suggesting alternative 'Conspiracy Theories' MUST BE JUST wacked-out idiots!"

Given such a thought, (which at that time I believed to be TRUE), I can tell you MOST CERTAINLY... I definately WOULDN'T have WASTED my time (especially the inordinate amounts that YID, Schneibster, adoucette, and the like, do) trying to convince 'idiots' that they are 'idiots'.

For someone to expend such energies in such a direction makes absolutely NO SENSE (to me).

Now, when I look at YID's expenditure today -

23 posts over the course of the last 18 hours

I REALLY HAVE TO WONDER... (apart from some psychological factors that I do not suffer from... or understand)...

What DRIVES these people to spend countless hours and energy trying to convince 'idiots' that they are 'idiots' ?????????????????????????

Well... I MIGHT do it... IF I was paid to?



Guest
QUOTE (adoucette+Dec 19 2005, 11:43 PM)
QUOTE (commondreamer+Dec 19 2005, 10:54 PM)
I think that admittion of guilt is the biggest proof that we can have that this was an inside job. Bigger than the frequency of falling metal debris,

You know, for a multi-millionaire, he sure is stupid, I mean to blow the biggest coverup ever on National TV, not once, but twice.

laugh.gif

You guys are REALLY getting desperate.

Arthur

Ohh so you say that it did not happen, have you seen the video, for you to make such a statement that he never said it and yet the proof is here is quite desperate

You are not very smart are you
Guest
QUOTE (yesitdid+Dec 19 2005, 11:17 PM)
QUOTE (dreaming in common+Dec 19 2005, 11:08 PM)
this thread is for discussing the physics of the collapse.


Sorry, sad.gif I too have called for this on more than one occasion whenever someone tries to bring political motivations into this thread.

yes shills would say that
anti-foxx
oh, yeah, foxx?

well i DO see a pod. and i DO notice a missing driver-side wing in lots of different photos and videos. i DO see a plane seemingly disappear into a building, leaving no marks, not shattering it's tail off like a good airplane, and then explosions, and THEN a cartoon cutout of a plane.
i mean, it's REALLY weird and i can't explain it, but i won't pretend to myself that it has been explained until i myself learn about digital encoding algorithms, bending properties of metal and whatnot.

however, i don't have time to deal with the improbable, now.

which is why i like to concentrate on the shapes and sounds.

there COULD have been a holographic plane with a missile(although, why would you model a holographic pod onto a holographic plane? LOL! unless that was a programmer's 'easter egg' thrown in to thricely confound conspiracy theorists)

i just think it looks like they were brought down, and i thought that on september eleventh, and research since has only confirmed it OVER and OVER and OVER.

once the head of the dragon has been removed, i would LOVE to get into a debate about the technology that might be involved in holographic planes, and psy-op herd control.

'we' don't 'need' it, though, i figger.

so, 'they' probably don't, either.

hence, occam's rusty razor says, 'they were planes'.

i don't think occam ever heard about the truth onion. layers, and layers with nothing in the center.

whether they were the same planes they were reported to be, or not, is a better 'real' question, INHO.
Foxx
QUOTE (Foxx+Dec 20 2005, 04:13 AM)
The time each post is made is registered at the top of each post.

I made my above post to check to compare the 'forum time' (what I see listed as the 'posted time' on my screen) with the actual time it is where I am.

This might be different for others, I suppose, depending on whether you can set 'forum posting time' with your own local time?

I haven't checked.

When I posted the above message the 'forum' says the time I posted is 8 hrs ahead of the actual time in my area. (Pacific Time Zone).

Now YID, according to the 'forum times' of your posts (that I see on my machine)... You have made a total of 23 posts over the course of the last 18 hours (since I made my last post yesterday).

That's really got to be some kind of record !

It seems (to me) like a very 'odd' posting schedule...

...for someone to be allegedly 'debating' an issue (which you seem to be 'totally convinced' is 'utter bunk').

This is something that always has struck me as 'odd' about you government theory apologists.

For those (who imply that they are debating with 'idiots' )... you seem to spend an awful lot of your time 'debating with idiots'.

Of course, you may have some psychological reason for spending such an inordinate amount of time conversing with 'idiots'... But I'm trying to understand WHY ANYONE would expend such energy towards such activities. Doesn't make sense (to me).

My apologies to any visiting here that 'believe' there was some POD attached to the WTC planes (or that the planes were holograms).

However... I personally feel that such theories are 'bunk'.

Now I could BE 'wrong' on that issue, but based upon my own 'investigation' (and looking at BOTH sides of those issues) I, PERSONALLY FEEL that those are errors.

Given my belief, I feel it would be a complete WASTE of MY TIME to go to Phil Jayhans 'POD' site and begin 'debating' with some of those there (who are utterly convinced there was a POD)... spending countless hours trying to 'debunk' or refute those die-hard 'believers'.

Prior to my 'conversion' I had never even heard of alternative 'conspiracy theories'.

Consequently, I never went looking for 'alternative conspiracy' sites (or forums).

I do recall Bush stating something to the effect of...

"Conspiracy Theorists are no better than the terrorists who attacked us".

At the time, (although I had no concept of what these 'alternative conspiracists' were stating), I recall thinking to myself...

"That's an 'odd' statement for the POTUS to be making publicly? Obviously anyone suggesting alternative 'Conspiracy Theories' MUST BE JUST wacked-out idiots!"

Given such a thought, (which at that time I believed to be TRUE), I can tell you MOST CERTAINLY... I definately WOULDN'T have WASTED my time (especially the inordinate amounts that YID, Schneibster, adoucette, and the like, do) trying to convince 'idiots' that they are 'idiots'.

For someone to expend such energies in such a direction makes absolutely NO SENSE (to me).

Now, when I look at YID's expenditure today -

23 posts over the course of the last 18 hours

I REALLY HAVE TO WONDER... (apart from some psychological factors that I do not suffer from... or understand)...

What DRIVES these people to spend countless hours and energy trying to convince 'idiots' that they are 'idiots' ?????????????????????????

Well... I MIGHT do it... IF I was paid to?

Of course, the 'answer' I expect to see is...

"Well, errrr.... ummmm.... ahhh.... As for 'myself' the reason that I spend so much time trying to convince 'idiots' that they are 'idiots' is simply because I CARE SO MUCH for TRUTH, that I feel it is MY DUTY to refute 'idiots'."

Sorry... doesn't wash (for me).

The TRUTH needs no Don Quixotes. If what 'YOU' claim is TRUTH, why WASTE your OWN TIME with 'idiots' (who are just trying to 'sell subscriptions'). The TRUTH will out the 'idiots' in the end anyway.

When I truly believed as you do now... I wouldn't have wasted more than 20 minutes 'debating with idiots'. (But maybe that's just 'me').

What's your REAL motive? Is it just some psychological abnormality you suffer from that drives you to spend countless hours discussing with 'idiots' who are far below your IQ quotients?



Foxx
QUOTE (anti-foxx+Dec 20 2005, 04:35 AM)
oh, yeah, foxx?

well i DO see a pod. and i DO notice a missing driver-side wing in lots of different photos and videos. i DO see a plane seemingly disappear into a building, leaving no marks, not shattering it's tail off like a good airplane, and then explosions, and THEN a cartoon cutout of a plane.
i mean, it's REALLY weird and i can't explain it, but i won't pretend to myself that it has been explained until i myself learn about digital encoding algorithms, bending properties of metal and whatnot.

however, i don't have time to deal with the improbable, now.

which is why i like to concentrate on the shapes and sounds.

there COULD have been a holographic plane with a missile(although, why would you model a holographic pod onto a holographic plane? LOL! unless that was a programmer's 'easter egg' thrown in to thricely confound conspiracy theorists)

i just think it looks like they were brought down, and i thought that on september eleventh, and research since has only confirmed it OVER and OVER and OVER.

once the head of the dragon has been removed, i would LOVE to get into a debate about the technology that might be involved in holographic planes, and psy-op herd control.

'we' don't 'need' it, though, i figger.

so, 'they' probably don't, either.

hence, occam's rusty razor says, 'they were planes'.

i don't think occam ever heard about the truth onion. layers, and layers with nothing in the center.

whether they were the same planes they were reported to be, or not, is a better 'real' question, INHO.

Heh...

Nice, anti-foxx biggrin.gif
Larry Silverstein
QUOTE
"Well, errrr.... ummmm.... ahhh.... As for 'myself' the reason that I spend so much time trying to convince 'idiots' that they are 'idiots' is simply because I CARE SO MUCH for TRUTH, that I feel it is MY DUTY to refute 'idiots'."


The reason is that you are very much interested in protecting this administration and those that perpetrated this attack, you by all means wish to make sure that as many as possible may not see truth.

Ohhh yes sheeple, just go to sleep all is well, we are here to help you. Sparticus is at the gates and Crassius is here to save the country, just trust him, you will see.

The owner admitting that he had wtc blown up on national tv, that was as good as it gets, how very brash to just admitt it, they really feel like they can do and say anything as the media will NEVER show the truth.

Building 7 is the smoking gun, FEMA said that they can not explain it, I can, controled demolition. Wow that was very difficult.

Barbara Olson
QUOTE (Larry Silverstein+Dec 20 2005, 04:58 AM)


The reason is that you are very much interested in protecting this administration and those that perpetrated this attack, you by all means wish to make sure that as many as possible may not see truth.

Ohhh yes sheeple, just go to sleep all is well, we are here to help you. Sparticus is at the gates and Crassius is here to save the country, just trust him, you will see.

The owner admitting that he had wtc blown up on national tv, that was as good as it gets, how very brash to just admitt it, they really feel like they can do and say anything as the media will NEVER show the truth.

Building 7 is the smoking gun, FEMA said that they can not explain it, I can, controled demolition. Wow that was very difficult.
adoucette
Now you KNOW they are desperate

Since all their posts are now just attacking the messengers.

Or going off into political rants.

Or posting yet again how their "evidence", of which they still have produced none, is irrefutable.

Or sending us to a web site where for only a measly $19.95 one can get our very own copy of the video showing the "evidence".

laugh.gif

Arthur





Foxx
QUOTE (Larry Silverstein+Dec 20 2005, 04:58 AM)
QUOTE
"Well, errrr.... ummmm.... ahhh.... As for 'myself' the reason that I spend so much time trying to convince 'idiots' that they are 'idiots' is simply because I CARE SO MUCH for TRUTH, that I feel it is MY DUTY to refute 'idiots'."


The reason is that you are very much interested in protecting this administration and those that perpetrated this attack, you by all means wish to make sure that as many as possible may not see truth.

Ohhh yes sheeple, just go to sleep all is well, we are here to help you. Sparticus is at the gates and Crassius is here to save the country, just trust him, you will see.

The owner admitting that he had wtc blown up on national tv, that was as good as it gets, how very brash to just admitt it, they really feel like they can do and say anything as the media will NEVER show the truth.

Building 7 is the smoking gun, FEMA said that they can not explain it, I can, controled demolition. Wow that was very difficult.

Heh... Larry

Personally, I don't put too much 'emphasis' on your 'pull it' statement. As far as I am concerned it was just a 'fall-back' position gone horribly wrong...

The 'fall back' position being that - in the event 'they' figger-out WTC 7 was 'pulled' we have testimony widely-reported that... "Yeah, so we 'pulled' 7... so what... it was a dangerous building... HAD to come down! We told you we were going to 'pull it' and we did... what's the problem?"

'Cept they forgot that it could NOT have been 'pulled' on that VERY DAY... and especially by 'spooks in firefighter costumes' who told everyone to 'move back now'.

Too bad no one got the names and badge numbers of those 'fire-fighter costume-wearin' guys'. biggrin.gif

Meanwhile, we have another anonymous 'do-gooder' on the other side of the complex picking up 'magical passports' and finding the nearest FBI officer to hand them to.

Surprising really that they didn't find another magical multiplying koran and suicide note next to it?

Hey... if you are in the market for a bridge... I may just be able to help you out.

Lemme know?


apologist
QUOTE (sophis+Dec 20 2005, 03:25 AM)

well...
thanks everyone for showing such great interest in this basic physics thread.

i really like physics. it's the coolest.

here's some basic physics.

things cannot exist and yet not exist. that is physically impossible in our 3D over time matrix.

there were planes.
there were fireballs and fires.
there were people and politics(a very real source of high speed energy reactions. awwww. they don't teach that one at illuminati thought indoctrination machines?).
there were sounds.
light bounced through the matrix according to the laws of mass and gravity. this was recorded from hundreds, if not thousands of sources.
there were helicopters.
there were flashes of light.
there were HUGE sound energies being produced in the absence of visibly detectable motion.
there are recordings of the sound energy produced by the actions of the towers.
there is a total energy sink.
there were very pointed ninety degree ejections well below the collapse zone.
there was white smoke at the base of the tower.
explosions were reported(these reports exist).
flashes were reported.
israeli 'art students' were arrested.
gag orders were issued to firemen.
evidence was detroyed.

this all happened. i could go on and on with this stuff. just off the top of my head.
i could also start mentioning the reality of neocon/mulism sympathiser/financers, like grover norquist, and the mysterious organisations like the safari club, which show some very strong suadi-american ties, but then, i'd have to do even MORE research into stinking politics, which i hate.

i like physics. so clean. it doesn't lie, once you get the right input.

there was a pattern created by the dynamic interaction of energy conversions. this pattern, although highly chaotic, does have some aspects of predictability with a high degree of accuracy. example. if the towers fell in three seconds, there could be no argument of resistance, as it would be a negative number. of course, advanced computer modelling CAN recreate these scenarios. however, the output is only as good as the input, and in the case of the towers, this data is affected by people and politics(see above) even more than the vast physical complexity.

the complexity of a tower collapse pales compared to the collapse of a society.

i would like to point out that a shill can be aware that he is a shill, or not. some shills are unaware that they have been 'programmed' to do a task. or an already existing position taken by the shill is used by the GRIFTER, who is the real brains behind the GRIFT.
i am not rick, the 911eyewitness guy. rick would have to be a grifter for me to be his shill. he seems like a businessman to me. i thought 'conservatives' LIKED entrepeneurs???

i guess i AM confused.

i haven't even watched the whole movie. i fell asleep at the wheel. it's not easy trying to keep up with a bunch of paid experts. i did watch the whole of the first tower footage, though. simply awesome. i would be a happy shill for this movie. BUY IT! pay rick. he is an american hero.

while i'm at it, i'll shill for the lord of the rings trilogy, too. i didn't think they could do the books justice, but they came damn close.

oh, yeah, and see 'waking life', too. great flick(although it makes me a little dizzy. that animation style is irritating).

i don't know.
i think i attacked no-one here.
except people who call themselves conservatives, but act like extreme left-wing dictators.
there is a simple logical argument here.

which things that exist in my list would you say don't exist?

are discussions of existance political or physical?

i wouldn't want to make a logical error.
adoucette
QUOTE
'Cept they forgot that it could NOT have been 'pulled' on that VERY DAY... and especially by 'spooks in firefighter costumes' who told everyone to 'move back now'.


Except the firefighters in Manhatten is a pretty small group. I'd suspect that most of them know the other groups. Pretty hard to come up with imposter firefighters and not have it fairly quickly spotted by the other firefighters in the area.

You are REALLY grasping at straws.

Arthur
shill
click here for FREE VIDEO! a REALTIME RECORDING OF THE EVENTS OF SEPTEMBER 11TH, ie. 911

okay? if you really think it's great footage(which i certainly do. the very best i've seen at putting you right there, .....in instant replay. the whole show(for the first tower, anyway. i still haven't seen the whole thing), then you might wanna shoot the CREATOR(ie. god) a few MEASLY bucks. this twenty dollar investment could help save the american taxpayer literally BILLIONS, if not, TRILLIONS of DOLLARS, $$$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!

you are free to copy and distribute this footage, so, if you get ten freinds in on it, it will only cost you 2$.

mind you, you could also download it for free, and make copies for free.

that's what i'm doing.

if things work out, i'm going to (eventually) buy rick spiegal a second hand hyundai pony as a gift. (hey, it's the thought that counts!)
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