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Guest
Hi Everybody

I was discussing with my brother on this topic.
Based on the evidence, we have concluded that there was an explosion that caused the continuous collapse of WTC.

The question that we debated then was whether there was a decision by the President to demolish the entire WTC to prevent some part of the building from collapsing sideway (like the falling of a tree) and hence widening the destruction to the adjacent properties that will end up with a greater loss of life?
We concluded that there was no such possibility given that there was not enough time for the President’s advisers to advise him what to do. In any case we don’t think the President were smart enough to make such an independent decision, judging from the mess that Mr. Bush has created for the world since he took office of the most powerful nation of the world.

We also ruled out the possibility of any conspiracy theory, however plausible that the proponents of this thread want us to believe. It is more ridiculous than to suggest that Junior Bush has gone mad and decided to kill senior Bush. It is just beating around the bush.

Our hypothesis is this:
When the plane crashed into the building, the fuel carried by the plane spilled onto the floors of the building.
The fuel then drain into the lift shafts serving the WTC from top to bottom. As the fuel flow into the bottom of the lift shafts, the fuel began to evaporate and mixes the air inside the lift shafts. This is the simple principle of combustion. No advanced physics, just simple elementary chemistry. When the mixture of evaporated fuel and air reaches the ideal condition that take roughly the duration between when the building was hit and the time when the building came crashing down, all it need is fire (where there was plenty) to trigger the explosions. We believe that there is not just one explosion but a series of explosions. This explains why the tower that was hit second but lower down the building came down earlier. We agree with the proponents of this thread that there was a series of explosions. We believe that it is this secondary explosion within the lift shaft that brought the buildings to its knee.

We could be wrong. But we really couldn’t be bothered because all the exorcising will not bring the dead from their grave. History is history irrespective of the real or moral truth behind this event that marks the beginning of the end of the brand of democracy that the United State had so enthusiastically preached to the world. Let’s hope that he does not engage in making more stupid decisions that may lead to the detonation of a nuclear bomb or the use of biological or chemical weapons that will spell the beginning of the end of the human specie or even life on earth.

Cheers,


Sing-Maltida.
RealityCheck
Hi mickeydoolittle and .dread!


Sorry for no-respondy sooner, guys; my landline to the internet went dead all of a sudden and for most of yesterday (can anyone help me out with a good 'conspiracy theory' involving Telstra 'et al' to explain it? hehehe). Anyhow.....

MICKEYDOOLITTLE....Hehehe. Me?...Schneibster? Good One! Although, considering my lung damage and continuing problems with them, right now I wouldn't mind being Schneibster or anyone else who has a good set of lungs. Why, if YOU have a reasonably healthy body, I might even consider being YOU, mickey...but only for a moment, because, judging from your posts so far, you obviously lack another very important organ 'upstairs', and I don't think the 'move' would be to any advantage.....I don't know though, you seem to find your way to the keyboard and punch the buttons alright; perhaps it's just that you DO have a brain but haven't yet read the instructions manual that came with it....which would explain why you have yet to make any worthwhile use of the relevant organ. I shall watch your progress to see if you will eventually be of ANY use to yourself or to anyone else in future. Personal insults/accusations are easy, but they unfortunately carry NO weight in a science forum. Learn; and leave me be, mate. Ciao.

.DREAD.......Perhaps, mate, you missed the part where I said Schneibster followed standard procedure by posting objective PHYSICS information, as REQUESTED by the person who started this thread. And perhaps you missed the part where Schneibster was PERSONALLY insulted/attacked after doing the right thing by the questioner and the debating rules. Perhaps you further missed where others LIED about both his physics responses and his motives. I ask any reasonable person here: Is Schneibster allowed to defend himself in kind? And does anyone else note that, despite all the self-evidently-feigned 'desire' for 'objective physics' which those same attackers/liars 'profess', THEY break the rules and are 'appalled' if their 'targets' do likewise in reply to such assaults?....a perfect demonstration of the cognitive dissonance attending any conspiracy-theory 'debate' (as opposed to 'scientific method' debate) where some want ONLY to engage in 'that kind' of 'debate'? .DREAD, Mate, just look at your OWN posts....you haven't even got an excuse AT ALL. You too: learn; and leave me be, that's a good .dread. Ciao.


RealityCheck.
.PS: For your joint information: Being an Australian, and so not on any 'side' of any US politics/agendas, I probably have MORE and GENUINELY-HEARTFELT sorrow/respect for 9/11 victims and their families....probably because, unlike some here in these conspiracy threads, I don't exploit them and their sufferings as a 'beating technique/ploy' in a forum which is supposed to be about the physics and not the personalities. To all those who unjustly accuse others of being disrespectful to 9/11 victims/families: I say to YOU, please have some GENUINE respect....some respect that isn't cheapened by your 'using'. RC.
.
Foxx
RE: Alleged Hole in Center of South Face of WTC 7

QUOTE
Originally posted by the YID
It is quite easy to see that if he had been on the east side of #7 and makes no mention of the west side, that in order to view the south side he rounded the building from the east. Otherwise he would have to have backtracked and gone all the way around WTC 7 to then be on the western edge of the south side. How you can then twist this to have him speaking about the SW corner defies all logic.


What is known is that... he comes round the corner of the SE of WTC 7 and views the south face. Right?

He sees a '20' story hole in the south face.

He DOES NOT state this hole was in the center of the south face, DOES HE ???

We know that numerous other firefighters saw a '20' story hole in the south face, and specifically stated that hole was at the southwest corner.

Simply logic tells us that in view of the above facts it is most likely that Boyle was referring to the same hole as the other firefighters - ( ~ 20 stories high, numerous fires at different levels in that hole). How you can sit there and boldly claim that there were two identical holes on the south face of WTC 7 defies ALL logic

How you deduce... apart from ANY corroborating evidence that Boyle was referring to a secondary hole in the center of the south face (which just coincidentally had the same physical characteristics as the hole at the SW corner, that every other firefighter who spoke of holes in the south face referred to, shows your sophistry as clear as a bell.

The photos you refer to DO NOT show a hole in the center of the south face. You point to L-23 and claim 'look there'.

That so-called 'hole' is to the right of the fallen walkway (which was at the SE corner of the building)... You need glasses YID.

Your so-called hole is West Broadway - NOT a hole in the south face of WTC 7. Look again at the debris map and see where the walkway is situated on the face of WTC 7.

User posted image

It is blatantly obvious that your 'alleged' hole in the center of the south face of WTC 7 is actually West Broadway which was between WTC 7 and the Post Office.

The 'debris' you point out is light-weight aluminum cladding (which is also marked on the debris map for your convenience).

The debris map also shows that none of the heavy perimeter column trees landed outside of the dark orange areas [EXCEPT at the Bankers Trust, Winter Gardens, and WFC 3]. Do you see any at WTC 7, ?

Go...

put on your obfuscating tin-foil hat... and join Schneibster facing the dunce corner. You can whisper sophisms back and forth to fool one another.

You're not fooling anyone who has eyes, and knows what they are talking about.

The evidence is perfectly clear (except to those who deny the truth...

1. FEMA debris map shows NO perimeter columns at WTC 7

2.Boyle does NOT state that the 20 story hole he saw was in the center of the south face of WTC 7

3. Other firefighters who were MORE specific spoke of only one 20-story hole in the south face of WTC 7 and they claim it was at the southwest corner.

4. NO other firefighters (or witnesses of any sort spoke of a hole in the center of south face of WTC 7

5. There are NO photographs or any other evidence showing a hole in the center of the south face of WTC 7

6. You; Schneibster; NIST; and other gov't apologists have absolutely NO evidence whatsoever of any hole in the south face of WTC 7... EXCEPT the 20 story hole in the southwest corner.

7. NIST has been pleading for photographic evidence of this alleged hole in the center of the south face of WTC 7 since 2002, and has come up with zero evidence.

8. IF, the NIST smoke & mirrors story about this alleged 20 story hole in the center of the south face of WTC 7 were TRUE, THEN, this asymmetric damage would have led to an asymmetric fall in that direction, and everyone knows it did not. NIST (once again) is spreading horsepucky, and you are lapping it up.

----------

Nice try with the sophistry though - take it back to the 'Black Vault forum' and see if you can impress someone there with it, 'Jaydees'.

It seems you are all over the web spouting your sophistry in support of official government stories.

When do you find time to get paid for your [real] 'alleged' job?

Or is your 'real job' working for some agency to support the 'official story' that the government has been trying cram down everyones throat for years?

If so, I suggest you get your 'facts straight'... before you get shipped off to Homeland Security on the arctic circle. tongue.gif

----------

Reality Check

Get yours checked.

Schneibster has been spewing venom and insults since his first post to Andrew Johnson (who even then responded with intelligence, respect, and non-return of Schneibsters insulting crap. Lap it up all you like, the man may be semi-intelligent but has serious social and emotional problems. Everyone can read the history of this thread and anyone who does cannot miss the character of this disturbed 'poor excuse for a human'.

There is no point in trying to rewrite the history of this thread. Unless the Schneibster wants to go back and edit out all his crap, his arrogant insulting behaviour is crystal clear for all to see.

I do empathize with your medical problems, but even that will gain no sympathy for the 'quack' from me.

Speak for yourself, and quit defending the arrogance and insulting behaviour of the Schneibster, and quit trying to claim that 'poor little Schneibster' was only responding to insults directed at him first. That is utter crap. He came with both his tongues spewing crap and insults - it is others who have had enough of listening to his insults who are 'responding'... not the other way around.





RealityCheck
Hi Foxxy!

He began by addressing the so-called 'science/physics' presented to date at the time; and proceeded to 'scientifically/objectively' point out the OBVIOUS NONSENSE assumptions/calculations/conclusions posted to that point in the thread. In doing so he made use of objective physics information, coupled with sarcasm aimed at the so-called scientific assertions/conclusions so as to highlight further the extent of the nonsense/pseudo-science he was commenting upon.

RealityCheck.
.
stallion4
Professor Jones is Right: Government Refused to Examine Trade Center Collapses
http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2005/...government.html
frater plecticus
BECAUSE THEY CANNOT BE "EXPLAINED" WITH NEWTONIAN PHYSICS.
Foxx
QUOTE (stallion4+Nov 25 2005, 02:35 AM)
Professor Jones is Right: Government Refused to Examine Trade Center Collapses
http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2005/...government.html

Stallion 4

Thanks for that link. I tracked down the article published by New Civil Engineer (British Engineering Journal).

Seems like all structural engineers are not in 'full agreement' with NIST's handling of the WTC investigation, (contrary to the claims of many government apologists)...and have noted the truncation of the report to avoid the modelling of the collapse scenario...

From the British Trade Journal New Civil Engineer +

Published 12 October 2005 at 10:00

WTC investigators resist call for collapse visualisation



QUOTE
WORLD TRADE Center disaster investigators are refusing to show computer visualisations of the collapse of the Twin Towers despite calls from leading structural and fire engineers, NCE has learned

Visualisations of collapse mechanisms are routinely used to validate the type of finite element analysis model used by the investigators.
The collapse mechanism and the role played by the hat truss at the top of the tower has been the focus of debate since the US National Institute of Standards & Technology (NIST) published its findings (NCE 22 September).

NIST showed detailed computer generated visualisations of both the plane impacts and the development of fires within WTC1 and WTC2 at a recent conference at its Gaithersburg HQ. But the actual collapse mechanisms of the towers were not shown as visualisations.

University of Manchester professor of structural engineering Colin Bailey said there was a lot to be gained from visualising the structural response.

“NIST should really show the visualisations; otherwise the opportunity to correlate them back to the video evidence and identify any errors in the modelling will be lost,” he said.

University of Sheffield professor Roger Plank added that visualisations of the collapses of the towers “would be a very powerful tool to promote the design code changes recommended by NIST.”

NIST told NCE this week that it did not believe there is much value in visualising quasi-static processes such as thermal response and load redistribution up to the point of global collapse initiation and has chosen not to develop such visualisations.

But it said it would ‘consider’ developing visualisations of its global structural collapse model, although its contract with the finite element analysis subcontractor was now terminated.

A leading US structural engineer said NIST had obviously devoted enormous resources to the development of the impact and fire models. “By comparison the global structural model is not as sophisticated,” he said.

“The software used has been pushed to new limits, and there have been a lot of simplifications, extrapolations and judgement calls.

“This doesn’t mean NIST has got it wrong in principle, but it does mean it would be hard to produce a definitive visualisation from the analysis so far.”


Source:

http://www.nceplus.co.uk/news/news_article...vil_engineering

(free sign-up required to view the article and other news from New Civil Engineer)

Quote from George Washington Blogspot...

In other words, the U.S. structural engineer is saying that even the non-visual computer models which NIST used to examine why the trade centers collapsed are faulty.

So this article from an old and respected engineering society shows two things:

(1) NIST (the government agency examining the collapse of the world trade centers) refuses to show any computer visualizations of the collapses themselves, while NIST has released models of much of the pre-collapse events with extravagant (even if incorrect) animation; and

(2) NIST pushed its software "to new limits", and used "simplifications, extrapolations and judgement calls" to reach a pre-established conclusion: that the towers collapsed due to fire and jet impact alone (a tricky feat, since the data actually indicates controlled demolitions).



Schneibster
Faux, why do you keep posting here? You lie, I proved you lie, and everyone knows you lie. Your only purpose here seems to be to lie more, but no one can avoid noticing you lie. Why bother? It's a waste of time; you can't prove anything anyone will believe if you lie. Why don't you go lie somewhere else?

Anyone questioning whether Faux lies or not please see page 50 of this thread, where I gave pointers to two posts earlier in the thread proving Faux lies. Over 35 different and distinct lies are documented on those two pages. You cannot believe anything this individual says, and my personal recommendation is that you not waste your time reading it.
adoucette
QUOTE (Foxx+)
The debris map also shows that none of the heavy perimeter column trees landed outside of the dark orange areas [EXCEPT at the Bankers Trust, Winter Gardens, and WFC 3]. Do you see any at WTC 7, ?

Go...

put on your obfuscating tin-foil hat... and join Schneibster facing the dunce corner. You can whisper sophisms back and forth to fool one another.

You're not fooling anyone who has eyes, and knows what they are talking about.

The evidence is perfectly clear (except to those who deny the truth...

1. FEMA debris map shows NO perimeter columns at WTC 7

2.Boyle does NOT state that the 20 story hole he saw was in the center of the south face of WTC 7

3. Other firefighters who were MORE specific spoke of only one 20-story hole in the south face of WTC 7 and they claim it was at the southwest corner.

4. NO other firefighters (or witnesses of any sort spoke of a hole in the center of south face of WTC 7

5. There are NO photographs or any other evidence showing a hole in the center of the south face of WTC 7

6. You; Schneibster; NIST; and other gov't apologists have absolutely NO evidence whatsoever of any hole in the south face of WTC 7... EXCEPT the 20 story hole in the southwest corner.

7. NIST has been pleading for photographic evidence of this alleged hole in the center of the south face of WTC 7 since 2002, and has come up with zero evidence.

8. IF, the NIST smoke & mirrors story about this alleged 20 story hole in the center of the south face of WTC 7 were TRUE, THEN, this asymmetric damage would have led to an asymmetric fall in that direction, and everyone knows it did not. NIST (once again) is spreading horsepucky, and you are lapping it up.



NIST has yet to release their final report on WTC 7.

In their preliminary report they show a shaded area of approximate damage in the South Face.

We KNOW there was substantial damage, two elevators were thrown out of their shafts into the lobby.

BUT, NIST did NOT say that there was SUBSTANTIAL STRUCTURAL DAMAGE based on the South Face damage. If you look at the floor plan, MOST of that area is a huge Atrium and the main support columns are set WAY back. Depending on how you interpret their preliminary diagrams, it appears that at most 3 columns were damaged (how severe not specified), however I interpret their drawing to mean that no columns were severly damaged because I think they mean that the outer circle is upper floor damage and the inner circle is the main damage, which ends short of the columns.

There were at least two exterior support columns severed in the damage to the corner, and probably some in the front, but these appear to be, like the WTC design, dealing mainly with lateral loads.

Their analysis of the collapse is quite detailed and offers several scenarios to account for it. However, the lack of detailed info on the internal fires and other structural damage that may have occurred will probably prevent anywhere near as detailed model as was done on WTC 1 and 2. Which is why the WTC 7 report DOES go into the mechanism of the global collapse.

You take the debris map as gospel, even though it uses words like 'predominate" and "approximate", and while it does note structural materials that were found outside the inner circle, it does NOT say that this accounts for ALL material. Remember WTC 7 collapsed and thus would have buried within it any WTC 1 structure. Do you think that each piece of steel was identified as to origin as it was scooped out of there and carted off?

Your last point is false because of the way the building was built, the South face is the ONE face that looks like it could take quite a bit of damage and not affect the overall load bearing ability of the structure, so it is quite possible that it had a 20 story hole in the glass front, but still not result in an asymmetric fall.

Personally though, I plan on waiting until the final report comes out, before arguing in detail about the demise of WTC 7.

Arthur
Foxx
Adoucette...Take a look at this building, its height, and its proximity to it's neighbors...

user posted image

Adoucette, how many 6 year olds do you think are reading this forum?

You ask me to believe that a few spotty fires caused this tower to telescope vertically down into it's footprint with next to no damage to it's neighbours?

It must be truly 'amazing' to live in the dreamland fairy tale world you live in. Like... looking at the world through a childs eyes.

The chances of a commercial demolition company being able to pull off this amazing feat with only the slightest damage to it's neighbours; I would put at odds of 100 to 1... yet you ask me to believe that a haphazard uncontrolled gravity driven collapse caused by asymmetric spotty fires accomplished this feat.

BWAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH !!!!! biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

Here is a video of a real building fire which led to a partial asymmetric collapse...

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/m...sor.fire.ap.wmv

Please give me a list of all the similarities which you see between the above collapse, and the WTC 7 collapse.

I wait in great anticipation, as I suspect you will come up with a long list of 'similarities'.


adoucette
QUOTE (Foxx+Nov 25 2005, 04:42 AM)
QUOTE (stallion4+Nov 25 2005, 02:35 AM)
Professor Jones is Right: Government Refused to Examine Trade Center Collapses
http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2005/...government.html

Stallion 4

Thanks for that link. I tracked down the article published by New Civil Engineer (British Engineering Journal).

Seems like all structural engineers are not in 'full agreement' with NIST's handling of the WTC investigation, (contrary to the claims of many government apologists)...and have noted the truncation of the report to avoid the modeling of the collapse scenario...

From the British Trade Journal New Civil Engineer +

Published 12 October 2005 at 10:00

WTC investigators resist call for collapse visualisation



QUOTE
WORLD TRADE Center disaster investigators are refusing to show computer visualisations of the collapse of the Twin Towers despite calls from leading structural and fire engineers, NCE has learned

Visualisations of collapse mechanisms are routinely used to validate the type of finite element analysis model used by the investigators.
The collapse mechanism and the role played by the hat truss at the top of the tower has been the focus of debate since the US National Institute of Standards & Technology (NIST) published its findings (NCE 22 September).

NIST showed detailed computer generated visualisations of both the plane impacts and the development of fires within WTC1 and WTC2 at a recent conference at its Gaithersburg HQ. But the actual collapse mechanisms of the towers were not shown as visualisations.

University of Manchester professor of structural engineering Colin Bailey said there was a lot to be gained from visualising the structural response.

“NIST should really show the visualisations; otherwise the opportunity to correlate them back to the video evidence and identify any errors in the modelling will be lost,” he said.

University of Sheffield professor Roger Plank added that visualisations of the collapses of the towers “would be a very powerful tool to promote the design code changes recommended by NIST.”

NIST told NCE this week that it did not believe there is much value in visualising quasi-static processes such as thermal response and load redistribution up to the point of global collapse initiation and has chosen not to develop such visualisations.

But it said it would ‘consider’ developing visualisations of its global structural collapse model, although its contract with the finite element analysis subcontractor was now terminated.

A leading US structural engineer said NIST had obviously devoted enormous resources to the development of the impact and fire models. “By comparison the global structural model is not as sophisticated,” he said.

“The software used has been pushed to new limits, and there have been a lot of simplifications, extrapolations and judgement calls.

“This doesn’t mean NIST has got it wrong in principle, but it does mean it would be hard to produce a definitive visualisation from the analysis so far.”


Source:

http://www.nceplus.co.uk/news/news_article...vil_engineering

(free sign-up required to view the article and other news from New Civil Engineer)

Quote from George Washington Blogspot...

In other words, the U.S. structural engineer is saying that even the non-visual computer models which NIST used to examine why the trade centers collapsed are faulty.

So this article from an old and respected engineering society shows two things:

(1) NIST (the government agency examining the collapse of the world trade centers) refuses to show any computer visualizations of the collapses themselves, while NIST has released models of much of the pre-collapse events with extravagant (even if incorrect) animation; and

(2) NIST pushed its software "to new limits", and used "simplifications, extrapolations and judgement calls" to reach a pre-established conclusion: that the towers collapsed due to fire and jet impact alone (a tricky feat, since the data actually indicates controlled demolitions).

Gee, we got two people who say they would like to see it. Big deal.

And since they are both British its pretty easy to call for others to spend their money. If they want to see this "demo" why not do it on their dime?

NIST says it is of little value.

What ISN'T mentioned is to do what these two ask for would be VERY EXPENSIVE.

Its not like they have an unlimited budget and as they say (and I happen to agree) is that it WOULD BE OF LITTLE VALUE.

So, sure it would be nice to see, but since you can't realistically engineer a building to PREVENT a GLOBAL collapse, what you can do though is engineer to prevent a LOCAL collapse. No local collapse = no global collapse.

As to the Blog Spot.

None of the engineers in the quote say that what NIST did was "Faulty".

NIST doesn't REFUSE to show anything, they just aren't going to fund a study of little value.

There is NO EVIDENCE that the many engineers working at NIST had a "pre-existing conclusion"

There is NO EVIDENCE of any Demolition.

Arthur
adoucette
QUOTE (Foxx+Nov 25 2005, 06:15 AM)
Adoucette...Take a look at this building, its height, and its proximity to it's neighbors...

user posted image

Adoucette, how many 6 year olds do you think are reading this forum?

You ask me to believe that a few spotty fires caused this tower to telescope vertically down into it's footprint with next to no damage to it's neighbours?

It must be truly 'amazing' to live in the dreamland fairy tale world you live in. Like... looking at the world through a childs eyes.

The chances of a commercial demolition company being able to pull off this amazing feat with only the slightest damage to it's neighbours; I would put at odds of 100 to 1... yet you ask me to believe that a haphazard uncontrolled gravity driven collapse caused by asymmetric spotty fires accomplished this feat.

BWAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH !!!!! biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

Here is a video of a real building fire which led to a partial asymmetric collapse...

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/m...sor.fire.ap.wmv

Please give me a list of all the similarities which you see between the above collapse, and the WTC 7 collapse.

I wait in great anticipation, as I suspect you will come up with a long list of 'similarities'.

Ever heard of APPLES and ORANGES?

You know they are both fruit, but they are nothing alike.

So it is with these two buildings.

IIRC the Madrid tower has a central core of REINFORCED CONCRETE, WTC did not.

EACH building will react DIFFERENTLY, based on its design, contruction technique, materials used, location and type of fire and other factors, such as being smashed into by a plane or a wall of flying debris.

What I have learned in all of this is our reliance upon SPRAYED ON FIRE RETARDANT to STEEL FRAME structures appears to be a real vulnerability.

As the NIST documents show, the response to a building fire of unprotected steel is POOR at best. It heats up to dangerous levels fairly quickly and easily reaches temps which will cause substantial loss of strength. Not so reinforced concrete.

NIST believes that had the fire retardant not been knocked off that neither of the WTC towers would have fallen.

I think when the final report on WTC 7 comes in we might find that even a relatively small amount of damage to the fire retardent coating can prove fatal.

The good news is that most building fires don't involve the kind of forces that would damage the fire protection. The bad news is it seems to easy to create the situations where it is damaged.

Arthur



adoucette
QUOTE (Foxx+)
You ask me to believe that a few spotty fires caused this tower to telescope vertically down into it's footprint with next to no damage to it's neighbours?

It must be truly 'amazing' to live in the dreamland fairy tale world you live in. Like... looking at the world through a childs eyes.

The chances of a commercial demolition company being able to pull off this amazing feat with only the slightest damage to it's neighbours; I would put at odds of 100 to 1... yet you ask me to believe that a haphazard uncontrolled gravity driven collapse caused by asymmetric spotty fires accomplished this feat.


If you look at all the smoke coming out of that tower near the end of its collapse you would have a hard time convincing anyone that there were just a few "spotty" fires.

The floor area of this building was the same as the WTC towers. 40,000 sq ft. So what you can see from a window does not necessarily indicate what is going on inside.

Then when you look at how the building is built, and by the way, I suspect this might well be similar for other large steel tower buildings, I think that the most PROBABLE collapse scenario is right into their own foot print. Since the structure has INNER connections that have a LOT of weight, a failure falling OUTWARD seems MOST UNLIKELY.

Arthur
RealityCheck
Hi adoucette!

How's things? Gee I'm envious of all you guys' access to the www! Where I live, I'm lucky if my landline connection (at dial-up speeds) lasts long enough to load the pictures appearing HERE, let alone doing all those comprehensive web-seaches/downloads! hehehe. Lucky stiffs!

Anyhow, just read your posts above and your reference to ease of getting heat into metal reminded me of something in that line way back in my early teenage years. My older brother had an air-rifle (you'd call it a B-B gun?). He was pretty strapped for cash and so couldn't afford many B-B pellets (situation: no pellets, no fun, hehehe). I said why not use all those lead sinkers we used to find on the beach to make his own 'rough and ready' pellets. He dared me to do it. So I did! You know how? An ordinary stick-candle (used during power blackouts) and a small metal piston-cap from some old hydraulic-brake fittings. I set up, and continually adjusted, the cap and candle so that the hottest part of the candle-flame (just above the 'flame-tip' I think it was----about 1200F degrees?) would hit the bottom of the 'shallow-cup' piston-cap. We waited some minutes (don't remember how long); and my brother was still busy ribbing his 'egghead' brother when, lo and behold, the couple of sinkers I put in it MELTED. He couldn't believe it! He thought it was a 'magic trick', hehehe! Anyhow, I got him to bring a bucket of water and I took (with pliers) the 'capful' of molten lead and, walking up the sidestairway, leaned over and dribbled the lead into the bucket from (eventually) just high enough, and slowly enough, so that it would form approximately the right 'calibre-size' DROPLETS on the way down. Naturally, the water 'froze' the droplets almost immediately. Voila', instant B-B 'slugs'!---most of which worked great in the air-rifle! My brother learned that day the 'practical' benefits of being an 'egghead'; never taunted me again! Great day for a theretofore oft-annoyed younger brother, I can tell ya! hehehe. Amazing how many 'little' things one forgets by the time one lives to 55, heh? Thanks for triggering a fond memory of my brother and me as teens, Adoucette. Ciao, mate!

RealityCheck.
.
frater plecticus
Quote Arthur (adoucette)
QUOTE
Ever heard of APPLES and ORANGES?


Pure science
frater plecticus
THE DARK SIDE OF WTC 7 VIDEO.

QUOTE
A smoke-screen is a release of smoke in order to mask the movement or location of military units such as infantry, tanks or ships.

It is most commonly deployed in a canister, usually as a grenade. The grenade releases a very dense cloud of smoke designed to fill the surrounding area even in light wind. They have also been used by ships.

Whereas smokescreens would originally have been used to hide movement from enemies' line of sight, modern technology means that they are now also available in new forms; they can screen in the infrared as well as visible spectrum of light to prevent detection by infrared sensors or viewers, and also available for vehicles is a superdense form used to prevent laser beams of enemy target designators or range finders on vehicles.


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
A smoke-screen is a release of smoke in order to mask the movement or location of military units such as infantry, tanks or ships.

It is most commonly deployed in a canister, usually as a grenade. The grenade releases a very dense cloud of smoke designed to fill the surrounding area even in light wind. They have also been used by ships.

Whereas smokescreens would originally have been used to hide movement from enemies' line of sight, modern technology means that they are now also available in new forms; they can screen in the infrared as well as visible spectrum of light to prevent detection by infrared sensors or viewers, and also available for vehicles is a superdense form used to prevent laser beams of enemy target designators or range finders on vehicles.


7 World Trade Center:
Secret Service, New York Electronics Crimes Taskforce
Television documentary
http://www.g4tv.com/mediaplayer/videostrea...0402a_165_0.asf
http://www.g4tv.com/techtvvault/features/2...et_Service.html

The Secret Service New York Field Office was located in 7 World Trade Center, which, along with Towers 1 and 2, collapsed following the terrorist attacks. One employee, Master Special Officer Craig Miller, died during the rescue efforts. Miller was temporarily assigned to New York in preparation for the United Nations General Assembly. Following the attacks, Secret Service employees were some of the first to respond with first aid trauma kits. Special agents assisted local fire and police rescue in establishing triage areas and helping evacuate people from the Towers.

http://www.secretservice.gov/press/pub1202.pdf

The resolution honoring the Secret Service notes the “extraordinary performance and commitment to service during and immediately following the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001" of the men and women of that agency. It notes that “the United States Secret Service New York field office located in 7 World Trade Center was destroyed on September 11, 2001, as a result of terrorist attacks”; agents “throughout the day of the attacks and subsequent days...continually and knowingly placed themselves in exceptional danger in their efforts to save life”; and “in selfless dedication to others, Master Special Officer Craig Miller was lost in the collapse of the World Trade Center.”

http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/ok05_...oms_honors.html

The Secret Service maintained a large field office inside the World Trade Centre, and initially many agents were thought to have been killed.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...6%2Fwbush16.xml

Image: http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/craig-miller-photo-01.jpg

Arlington Cemetary Website: Craig Miller
http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/craig-miller.htm


QUOTE
From Dec. 2001 article in "intercom", a "Journal of the Air Force Communications and Information Community", p. 8, "Scott NCOs give personal account of World Trade Center survival":
"...four Air Force Communications Agency members ...Tech Sgt. Shawn Haynes and Staff Sgts. Craig Walentowski, Mark Provo and Lonnie Wells, of the Air Force Protective Communications Support team, were on temporary duty in New York City to provide communications support for the Secret Service for United Nations General Assembly 56. They left Scott AFB Aug. 27 and were scheduled to return Oct. 5, before their mission was curt short by the destruction of the World Trade Center.

"We were there to provide radio, telephone, computer, cellular phone, and paging support for the assembly," said Sergeant Haynes.

The four had left a morning briefing and begun preparing for the day's mission when the first airliner struck the north tower.

Sergeants Haynes, Walentowski and Provo were working on the 10th floor of Building 7.

"Craig was issuing cellular phones, Mark was gettin ready to go out on a protection detail, and I was installing a telephone line," Sergeant Haynes said.

"I think anybody who was near a window saw a flash--a blue flash," he said. "Mark described it as a clap of thunder, or a transformer explosion. It didn't seem like an airplane hitting a building. My first thought was of the night before. We'd had storms and I thought maybe more had rolled in. Then we all looked outside---there was paper everywhere. We immediately started to evacuate the building.

"Building 7 faces the back side of Towers 1 and 2, so we didn't realize anything hit the front," Sergeant Haynes said. "We assumed it was some sort of explosion."

"Once we got to the lobby we saw security guards had locked the doors," he said. "The whole front of the building was glass and they were pushing everyone away, keeping about a 10-foot perimeter. Nobody really questioned that too much."

"We were all standing around the lobby when there was a second explosion," he said. "Some people happened to be looking out the windows and saw it, other people just heard it. When we looked up we could see the second building was engulfed in flames. At that point it clicked--this wasn't an accident.

"The anticipation rose and being locked in didn't sound like a good idea anymore," Sergeant Haynes said. "People started to get anxious and wanted out. The guards opened a door in the lobby that led to a loading dock exit into an alleyway on the back side of the building. It was somewhat chaotic, yet orderly. Nobody was crawling over anybody to get out. People were taking care of each other. As we went to the ground level to get out the back door, we could look out the front door at street level and see there was a lot of debris."
...
"The scariest part for us was when we exited the lobby together into a back alleyway," Sergeant Haynes said. "It was a narrow exit and we got separated. After a short time, Craig and I ran into each other on the street and then we ran into Lonnie. We got word over the radio to muster at the ball field. When we got there Building 2 came down. We couldn't see it, because Building 1 blocked our view, but we heard another explosion, which we first thought was a third plane or a bomb. Those rumors were circulating in the crowd and then we saw the humongous dust cloud. We had to take off so we wouldn't be engulfed in ti as well
"It was just pur luck that we ran into Mark at that time....
"After the first building had fallen we heard another plane and everybody started running and ducking," Wells said. "But then we looked up and saw Air Force fighter aircraft. As soon as the crowd realized they were our fighters, everybody started clapping...
"All the Secret Service eventually met at Chelsea Pier," Sergeant Haynes said. "After a couple hours, police boats took us across the Hudson River to New Jersey, and then they chartered buses that took us to Washington, D.C. We spent Tuesday night and all day Wednesday trying to get out of D.C....We got a rental car and ended up driving back to Scott Thursday night."
"It's hard," Sergeant Haynes said. "As GIs, we're trained to help, and we're taught you don't leave people behind. But in that situation, security people kept us out of the area. We weren't in a position to help anybody, because we'd have been going upstream to get there. It's hard to think about all the people who needed help. We're not heroes, we're just lucky survivors."
http://public.afca.af.mil/Intercom/2001/01dec.pdf



user posted image

DOWNLOAD SMOKESCREEN QUICKTIME (5MB) HERE
frater plecticus
[QUOTE]Chemicals used for smoke generation

Zinc chloride

Zinc chloride smoke is grey-white and consist of tiny particles of zinc chloride. The most common mixture for generating these is the zinc chloride smoke mixture (HC), consisting of hexachloroethane, grained aluminium and zinc oxide. The smoke consists of zinc chloride, zinc oxychlorides, and hydrochloric acid, which absorb the moisture in the air. The smoke also contains traces of organic chlorinated compounds, phosgene, carbon monoxide, and chlorine.

Its toxicity is caused mainly by the content of strongly acidic hydrochloric acid, but also to thermal effects of reaction of zinc chloride with water. These effects cause lesions of the mucous membranes of the upper airways. Damage of the lower airways can manifest itself later as well, due to fine particles of zinc chloride and traces of phosgene. In high concentrations, the smoke can be very dangerous when inhaled. Symptoms include dyspnea, retrosternal pain, hoarseness, stridor, lachrymation, cough, expectoration, and in some cases haemoptysis. Delayed pulmonary edema, cyanosis or bronchopneumonia may develop. The smoke and the spent canisters contain suspected carcinogens.

The prognosis for the casualties depends on the degree of the pulmonary damage. All exposed individuals should be kept under observation for 8 hours. Most affected individuals recover within several days, with some symptoms persisting for up to 1-2 weeks. Severe cases can suffer of reduced pulmonary function for some months, the worst cases developing marked dyspnea and cyanosis leading to death.

Respirators are required for people coming into contact with the zinc chloride smoke.

Chlorosulphonic acid

Chlorosulphonic acid (CSA) is a heavy, strongly acidic liquid. When dispensed in air, it readily absorbs moisture and forms dense white fog of hydrochloric acid and sulfuric acid. In moderate concentrations it is highly irritating to eyes, nose, and skin.

When chlorosulphonic acid comes in contact with water, a strong exothermic reaction scatters the corrosive mixture in all durections. CSA is highly corrosive, so careful handling is required.

Low concentrations cause just prickling sensation on the skin, but high concentrations or prolonged exposure to field concentrations can cause severe irritation of the eyes, skin, and respiratory tract, and mild cough and moderate chemical dermatitis can be a result as well. Liquid CSA causes acid burns of skin and exposure of eyes can lead to severe eye damage.

Affected body parts should be washed with water and then with sodium bicarbonate solution. The burns are then treated like thermal burns. The skin burns heal readily, cornea burns can result in residual scarring.

Respirators are required for any concentrations sufficient to cause any cough, irritation of the eyes or prickling of the skin.

Titanium tetrachloride

Titanium tetrachloride (FM) is a yellow non-flammable corrosive liquid. In contact with damp air it hydrolyzes readily, resulting in a dense white smoke consisting of droplets of hydrochloric acid and particles of titanium oxychloride.

The titanium tetrachloride smoke is irritant and unpleasant to breathe.

It is dispensed from aircrafts to create vertical smoke curtains, and during World War II it was a favorite smoke generation agent on warships.

Goggles or a respirator should be worn when in contact with the smoke, full protective clothing should be worn when handling liquid FM. In direct contact with skin or eyes, liquid FM causes acid burns.

Phosphorus

Red phosphorus and white phosphorus (WP) are red or waxy yellow or white substances. White phosphorus is pyrophoric - can be handled safely when under water, but in contact with air it spontaneously ignites. It is used as an incendiary. Both types of phosphorus are used for smoke generation, mostly in artillery shells, bombs, and grenades.

For more details see White phosphorus incendiary.

White phosphorus smoke is typically very hot and may cause burns on contact. Red phosphorus is less reactive, does not ignite spontaneously, and its smoke does not cause thermal burns - for this reason it is safer to handle, but can not be used so easily as an incendiary.

Oil

Oil smoke is usually produced by smoke generators. The resulting smoke is a mist of oil droplets of controlled size.
mickeydoolittle
QUOTE (Schneibster+)
Faux, why do you keep posting here? You lie, I proved you lie, and everyone knows you lie. Your only purpose here seems to be to lie more, but no one can avoid noticing you lie. Why bother? It's a waste of time; you can't prove anything anyone will believe if you lie. Why don't you go lie somewhere else?


Hypocrite. You're the one lying here and everyone can see it. Because afterall, you attempted to disguise yourself claiming to be an expert on structural engineering and then you were caught. Let me refresh your very short memory span moron...

Schneibster's profile at GNN

user posted image

Profile:
rank: Conscript
points: 21
occupation: Computer Programmer
location: Seattle, US

Now go haul your overweight uglyass out of here and lie somewhere else. You aren't convincing anyone here except your self-made sock-puppets like "adouchebag" and "RealityCheck".
mickeydoolittle
QUOTE (adouchebag+)
Ever heard of APPLES and ORANGES?

Ever heard that you are quite the idiot who suffers from multiple personality disorder? rolleyes.gif

QUOTE (adouchebag+)
You know they are both fruit, but they are nothing alike.

We know that you are both "Schneibster" and his other username "RealityCheck" and that you are actually one person.
Sinclair
Lets hear it from Prof. Glenn P. Corbett, Assistant Professor of Fire Science at John Jay College of Criminal Justice, before the Committee on Science, House of Representatives, United States Congress. Statement entitled “The Investigation of the World Trade Center Collapse: Findings, Recommendations, and Next Steps” , dated October 26, 2005

link available here www.house.gov/science/hearings/full05/oct%2026/Corbett%20Testimony%20FINAL.pdf


Excerpts:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“Over three years has passed since NIST began its investigation into the World Trade Center disaster. We have now come to the conclusion of this $16 million effort search for answers about what happened in the twin towers. The investigation has taken much longer than anticipated, including the fact that the World Trade Center (building) 7 investigation will likely not be completed next summer.”"During the course of the WTC investigation, I have had serious concerns about some of the findings and conclusions that NIST has drawn. Other individuals, including some people on the federal advisory committee, have also had concerns. While this hearing is not the appropriate place to debate technical issues, I would suggest that a more formal mechanism be developed to officially address comments from the public. Such a protocol should include the technical basis for which NIST rejects or accepts the content a public comment."

"Overall, I have been disappointed by the lack of aggressiveness that has characterized not only the World Trade Center investigation but the Rhode Island Station Nightclub investigation as well. Instead of a “gumshoe” inquiry that left no stone unturned, I believe the investigations were treated more like research projects in which they waited for information to flow to them. In both investigations, they were reluctant to use the subpoena power given to them under the NCST Act. To some extent, the lack of assertiveness was the likely the result of the legal opinions given to NIST by staff attorneys."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

& this is from a guy on the official witness testimony panel at the WTC meeting of October 26, 2005 - Full Committee on Science - Hearing - The Investigation of the World Trade Center Collapse: Findings, Recommendations and Next Steps (see www.house.gov/science/hearings/full05/oct%2026/index.htm )

In addition to Professor Glenn Corbett quoted before, below is criticism raised at the meeting by Sally Regenhard, Chairperson, Skyscraper Safety Campaign: (The SSC represents families and survivors of the WTC disaster)

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In totality however, while some very valuable results were achieved, the overall mode and findings of the investigation was not what I had hoped for. I had certain hopes regarding NIST & the investigation, but I and others were disillusioned regarding what NIST was willing and able to do. I had hoped for more specific and comprehensive recommendations that could easily be translated into code reform and change, but this is not the case. The recommendations are very general and lack specifics. I feel that the vagueness of the language was influenced by political correctness and a general reluctance or inability to "investigate", use subpoena power, "lay blame", or even point out the deadly mistakes of 9/11 in the WTC. The following are five areas of concern for the Skyscraper Safety Campaign.

1) The role of the Port Authority of NYNJ & its’ exemptions from immunities & codes. The failure of the NIST Investigation to comprehensively examine what role these immunities had in the design, construction, maintenance and ultimate collapse of the WTC is of great concern to me.
2) The lack of more intense emphasis on fireproofing issues, premature disposal of steel evidence, the heavy reliance on computer modeling for fire testing, & the reluctance to focus on cause, blame, and resultant implications are troubling.
3) The reliance on the voluntary cooperation of key figures in the investigation to provide needed information; placing the former WTC chief structural engineer on the payroll to facilitate his involvement in the investigation, utilizing researchers to the exclusion of true investigators going into the field to obtain evidence is problematic to me. On this last point, I have been married to a NYPD detective sergeant for over 30 years, and I can recognize an Investigation when I see one. I feel the inherent character of NIST as a research rather than investigative agency was a factor in this situation.
4) The lack of focus on evacuation issues of the WTC such as remoteness of exits, behavior of fleeing persons in the stairwells, & the avoidance of first person accounts of stairwell evacuation, and length of time it took to evacuate the building was a shortcoming.
5) The relative secrecy of the investigation, and the withholding of all materials and documents used by NIST to arrive at the study's conclusions is very disturbing. These materials should be made available to professionals for further study and analysis, to question and/or duplicate the findings, according to the scientific method, and should not be locked away in the National Archives or anywhere else. I hope I can call on the Science Committee to unlock this information for the American public
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

These are comments from people who were on the (Wtiness) Testimony Panel at the hearing!!!!

It is evidence of un unsatisfactory NIST Investigation which has not looked at all the facts.
B_Sharp
I finished reading the book:

The New Pearl Harbor
- Disturbing Questions about the Bush Administration and 9/11

Honestly, poorly written. All words, no diagrams, no pictures. Usually that is the artifact a Journalism student leaves behind. All blah, blah but science illiterate.

But several pages of good references.

Poor inferences from the book include advance notice of 911 meant that specific terrorism on 9/11 was known. Years before, airplane into building terrorism was anticipated. And facts were that planes were known to be high jacked on 9/11. A plane crashed into the first building. BUT to expect THAT incident was terrorism is only 20/20 hindsight - in my opinion. Only when second plane hit did anyone reasonable know it was not accidental.

Most people already figure flight 93 was indeed shot down but any Govt would be reluctant to admit that. The book points out that the downed flight recorder editted out the last 3 or 4 minutes. Phone calls aboard the plane indicate a hole in the plane (alleged missle shot) and a big air sucking sound. So the last minutes are blanked out probably for that reason as the plane went down, so we don't know what went on.

Another good point, the passengers eventually took back the plane. Plus two passengers were experienced pilots who could have flown the plane to safety. The book reasonably implies that only after passengers took back control of plane did the military shoot down the plane since it was not gonna hit Congress or White House with passenger control. Now that make sense. Govts create artificial crisis to take control. EG Hitler burned down Richts 'Congress' building so to take power.

Anybody who denies that Govts destroy their own buildings as a power grab are Holocaust deniers. Remember Hitler. - imo smile.gif

yesitdid
QUOTE (mickeydoolittle+Nov 24 2005, 07:00 PM)
QUOTE (yesitdid+)
He meant of course, that he saw that an plane hit the tower.


Oh I see, so you're psychic now? Or are you just making a guess? Stop spewing conjectures. There is not enough information about the subject regarding GWB's take on the first plane that he saw. Don't jump to conclusions (that goes for both sides of this issue). Perhaps you were being sarcastic? blink.gif

Nope, not sarcastic. As far as speculation goes I have seen some pretty unsubstantiated extrapolations that have as their basis a literal(correct English grammer) understanding of this quote by GWB. A secret satellite feed of a video of the WTC for instance. This is put forward despite the numerous examples to illustrate the obvious fact that the man has trouble communicating properly in English, often has trouble simply reading a speech and really balls things up anytime he is speaking off the cuff.

In the same reply in that inter view he states, " actually I was in a classroom talking about a reading program that works. And I was sitting outside the classroom waiting to go in, and I saw an airplane hit the tower ".
So, was he in the classroom talking about a reading program or was he sitting outside the classroom watching TV? If taken as literally as the non-believers in the official theories of 9/11 want to take the other sentence then Mr.Bush has just utter two mutually exclusive statements.

The man is an idiot and on that I do believe you will not argue.
yesitdid
QUOTE (Foxx+Nov 25 2005, 01:43 AM)
RE: Alleged Hole in Center of South Face of WTC 7

QUOTE
Originally posted by the YID
It is quite easy to see that if he had been on the east side of #7 and makes no mention of the west side, that in order to view the south side he rounded the building from the east. Otherwise he would have to have backtracked and gone all the way around WTC 7 to then be on the western edge of the south side. How you can then twist this to have him speaking about the SW corner defies all logic.


What is known is that... he comes round the corner of the SE of WTC 7 and views the south face. Right?

He sees a '20' story hole in the south face.

He DOES NOT state this hole was in the center of the south face, DOES HE ???

We know that numerous other firefighters saw a '20' story hole in the south face, and specifically stated that hole was at the southwest corner.

Simply logic tells us that in view of the above facts it is most likely that Boyle was referring to the same hole as the other firefighters - ( ~ 20 stories high, numerous fires at different levels in that hole). How you can sit there and boldly claim that there were two identical holes on the south face of WTC 7 defies ALL logic

How you deduce... apart from ANY corroborating evidence that Boyle was referring to a secondary hole in the center of the south face (which just coincidentally had the same physical characteristics as the hole at the SW corner, that every other firefighter who spoke of holes in the south face referred to, shows your sophistry as clear as a bell.

The photos you refer to DO NOT show a hole in the center of the south face. You point to L-23 and claim 'look there'.

That so-called 'hole' is to the right of the fallen walkway (which was at the SE corner of the building)... You need glasses YID.

Your so-called hole is West Broadway - NOT a hole in the south face of WTC 7. Look again at the debris map and see where the walkway is situated on the face of WTC 7.

User posted image

It is blatantly obvious that your 'alleged' hole in the center of the south face of WTC 7 is actually West Broadway which was between WTC 7 and the Post Office.

The 'debris' you point out is light-weight aluminum cladding (which is also marked on the debris map for your convenience).

The debris map also shows that none of the heavy perimeter column trees landed outside of the dark orange areas [EXCEPT at the Bankers Trust, Winter Gardens, and WFC 3]. Do you see any at WTC 7, ?

Go...

put on your obfuscating tin-foil hat... and join Schneibster facing the dunce corner. You can whisper sophisms back and forth to fool one another.

You're not fooling anyone who has eyes, and knows what they are talking about.

The evidence is perfectly clear (except to those who deny the truth...

1. FEMA debris map shows NO perimeter columns at WTC 7

2.Boyle does NOT state that the 20 story hole he saw was in the center of the south face of WTC 7

3. Other firefighters who were MORE specific spoke of only one 20-story hole in the south face of WTC 7 and they claim it was at the southwest corner.

4. NO other firefighters (or witnesses of any sort spoke of a hole in the center of south face of WTC 7

5. There are NO photographs or any other evidence showing a hole in the center of the south face of WTC 7

6. You; Schneibster; NIST; and other gov't apologists have absolutely NO evidence whatsoever of any hole in the south face of WTC 7... EXCEPT the 20 story hole in the southwest corner.

7. NIST has been pleading for photographic evidence of this alleged hole in the center of the south face of WTC 7 since 2002, and has come up with zero evidence.

8. IF, the NIST smoke & mirrors story about this alleged 20 story hole in the center of the south face of WTC 7 were TRUE, THEN, this asymmetric damage would have led to an asymmetric fall in that direction, and everyone knows it did not. NIST (once again) is spreading horsepucky, and you are lapping it up.

----------

Nice try with the sophistry though - take it back to the 'Black Vault forum' and see if you can impress someone there with it, 'Jaydees'.

It seems you are all over the web spouting your sophistry in support of official government stories.

When do you find time to get paid for your [real] 'alleged' job?

Or is your 'real job' working for some agency to support the 'official story' that the government has been trying cram down everyones throat for years?

If so, I suggest you get your 'facts straight'... before you get shipped off to Homeland Security on the arctic circle. tongue.gif

----------

Reality Check

Get yours checked.

Schneibster has been spewing venom and insults since his first post to Andrew Johnson (who even then responded with intelligence, respect, and non-return of Schneibsters insulting crap. Lap it up all you like, the man may be semi-intelligent but has serious social and emotional problems. Everyone can read the history of this thread and anyone who does cannot miss the character of this disturbed 'poor excuse for a human'.

There is no point in trying to rewrite the history of this thread. Unless the Schneibster wants to go back and edit out all his crap, his arrogant insulting behaviour is crystal clear for all to see.

I do empathize with your medical problems, but even that will gain no sympathy for the 'quack' from me.

Speak for yourself, and quit defending the arrogance and insulting behaviour of the Schneibster, and quit trying to claim that 'poor little Schneibster' was only responding to insults directed at him first. That is utter crap. He came with both his tongues spewing crap and insults - it is others who have had enough of listening to his insults who are 'responding'... not the other way around.

Look again Foxx. The hole is to the left of the walkover. The damaged columns visible through the haze are attached to the structure to the right of the walkover and the wall that the walkover is resting on is part of the WTC 7. Looking under the walkover one can see West Broadway which is , as it should be, at the same level as the car in the left foreground. The structure above the walkway goes up from the same wall that walkover is resting on. That wall , above which is the gaping hole I have refered to, is to the viewer's left and that places it as part of the WTC 7.

The wall is continous from the left of the photo past the right side of the walkover and is obviously part of #7.

Twist this and Boyle's statement all you want Foxx, you are wrong, plain and simple!


"It seems you are all over the web spouting your sophistry in support of official government stories"
BWAHAHAHA
So, I am not allowed to post on other forums then? Seems to me YOU instructed me(pretty much came off as an order) to post on this forum. Ong invited me to Pravda, I have been on the BV and BAUT for years and AH for some time as well.
Big hairy deal, do you have a point to make or not. Hey if you keep looking you will find one more forum I am on but you may have already seen that and were sorely disappointed since 9/11 has never even come up there.

"Or is your 'real job' working for some agency to support the 'official story' that the government has been trying cram down everyones throat for years?
"

How does your money from Bin Laden get to you? Hand delivered brown envelope? ph34r.gif Better be careful or you might get shipped off to a mountain on the Pakistan-Afghanistan border.
RealityCheck
Hi mickeydoolittle!

Sounds like you've uncovered something really BIG there, mickey! Sounds like All USER NAMES posting in PhysorgForums are actually ONE AND THE SAME PERSON! hehehe. (How's THAT for a conspiracy theory, heh?)

Listen here, sport, I'm warning you politely, and for the last time: I don't like being told that I'm somebody else, get it? Use what little discretion your mother might have inculcated in you for a minute BEFORE you go off at the mouth. If you have something to say to ME, RealityCheck, then say it to ME, RealityCheck. Whoever Schneibster is, he ain't me any more than he is YOU, I hope. Have you got that, mate? What age ARE you?...12yrs maybe? You sound like it. Let me be.

RealityCheck.
.
RealityCheck
Hi mickeydoolittle!

Ahhhh....so your only 9yrs old then; not 12yrs old. That explains the potty-mouth. Do you know that it has been shown that those who use the word "faggot" a lot, are subconsciously trying to divert attention from their OWN 'indeterminate' sexual tendencies? Besides, does your mother know what you get up to on the internet?

RealityCheck.
.
mickeydoolittle
Where's your 'standard procedure' for scientific enguiry and debate now? Obviously, you don't even know how to stay consistent with your own goodie-two shoes persona. I have completely exploited your lack of composure as you seem to have changed from Dr.Jekyll to Mr. Hyde. Hypocrisy at its best. wink.gif
RealityCheck
Hi mickeydoolittle!

Just replying in kind to your insults and innuendoes, mate. Your 'faggot' and 'killing' remarks hardly give you any legs to stand on, do they? All here will have noted that, despite these tasteless remarks of yours, I only used the necessary MINIMUM of retorts to your obvious uneducated and juvenile taunts. If you can't take it, don't dish it out....especially to someone whom you have mistaken for somebody else.

And mate, really, if you can be so TOTALLY WRONG and so IRRESPONSIBLE in the case of me being Schneibster, then WHAT ELSE have you got arse-up, heh?

RealityCheck.
.
RealityCheck
Hi mickeydoolittle!

I live on Australia's east coast (hence a certain time zone). What time zone do YOU live in?...and yesitdid?....and Schneibster? You see, while somebody's just signing off to GO TO BED, somebody in another time zone is JUST GETTING UP and logging in; etc, etc. with different combinations of 'coincidences' that are nothing but time-zone 'interface' artifacts. That's what is to be expected in an internet forum in which THE WHOLE WORLD and its various time zones are involved.

Add to that the fact that people have different job/life commitments and hence patterns of sign-on/sign-off AT VARIOUS STAGES in their work/home life, and NATURALLY, probability says that at least SOME of the time there will be MANY coincidences such as you describe. In fact, it would be MORE SUSPICIOUS if such coincidences DIDN'T happen....because THEN there would have to be some 'manipulation' of the usual 'natural' odds of its happening.

So please, in MY case at least, DON'T make the mistake of saying I'm anyone else other than RealityCheck. I'm very proud of that personna, and I don't like to have it besmirched so thoughtlessly by ANYONE. I'm being straight with you, so be straight with me, mate. Anyhow, just look up my posts record under my user name; see for yourself I was here long before 'conspiracy' threads and you and Schneibster showed up. And I'm involved in other scientific and anti-creationist forum discussions which will take up much of my time; so I only post HERE as and when I think I have something to say...and NOT because I have some 'agenda' (other than honest comment/contribution to the science involved, if any). Ciao mickey; and good luck with your temper, mate! hehehe.

RealityCheck.
.
Guest
mickeydolittle, I would doubt if many are taking the likes of Reality Check, adoucette or Shniebster half as seriously as you appear to be. If they are what you suspect then turning this into a rabble would be a more effective method of them stopping the flow of information than their half baked, ill thought out and downright silly attempts at appearing to be serious examiners of the facts.

Anyway, the posts of metamars Foxx frater etc show them up for the frauds they are and at the same time let those that are not so familiar with the evidence see the paucity of the official story and those that try to bolster it.
mickeydoolittle
QUOTE (guest+)
If they are what you suspect then turning this into a rabble would be a more effective method of them stopping the flow of information than their half baked, ill thought out and downright silly attempts at appearing to be serious examiners of the facts.

Anyway, the posts of metamars Foxx frater etc show them up for the frauds they are and at the same time let those that are not so familiar with the evidence see the paucity of the official story and those that try to bolster it.

They are the useful idiots - for both sides


I will agree with you in this. I was just trying to test the good guy persona of RealityCheck to see if it would hold or if it would break into Schneibster whining. Well I believe I have exploited his weakness. Now, I will step back and let the debate continue. What's most important to me is finding out the truth. I believe Metamars, Foxx, Frater, and others are doing great things here, and that is what's most important. I believe that the people you mention have and continue to rip apart the false arguements of Schneibster and his multiple personality disorders.
RealityCheck
Hi mickeydoolittle.

Mate, I can read and comprehend. You obviously have some difficulty in those departments. It may surprise you to find that one can read where people are personally attacked, and one doesn't have to BE that person to comprehend that that person is being personally attacked without any attempt to address the physics information he presented.

You also seem to have a constitutional incapability of distinguishing where people are being 'reasonable' in dealing with obvious mental cases, and where they're 'crying'. Are you THAT far gone, and at such an early age? What a shame. I expect to hear about you in the news one day....where some loser has gone up a clock tower with an assortment of firearms to compensate for his inadequacies in the 'upstairs/downstairs' department. Are you on some kind of medication? You sound like you should be. Please, any phsychiatrists who happen to know this joker, would you please provide the necessary shot in the arm so we can get some sense out of him?

RealityCheck.
.PS: And who do you think that "Guest" was, mickey? Any comments on THAT? Be fair and reasonable, if you can. RC.
.
rather not say who
What has not been given here, is a re-simulation of what those aircrafts did, while inside of the buildings?

Secondly, those floors were probably immersed in jet fuel, with the ventilation system active.So the action of jet fuel was accelerated to very high temperatures, by the action of constant rushing air.

Three, if there were collapsing charges set in there, then you would have had multiple boom reports, sounding to the ground, almost like a ship firing its weapons.

None of this was analyzed at all, or given, reported as evidence.
yesitdid
QUOTE (Guest+Nov 25 2005, 08:35 PM)
mickeydolittle, I would doubt if many are taking the likes of Reality Check, adoucette or Shniebster half as seriously as you appear to be. If they are what you suspect then turning this into a rabble would be a more effective method of them stopping the flow of information than their half baked, ill thought out and downright silly attempts at appearing to be serious examiners of the facts.

Anyway, the posts of metamars Foxx frater etc show them up for the frauds they are and at the same time let those that are not so familiar with the evidence see the paucity of the official story and those that try to bolster it.

They are the useful idiots - for both sides

""They are the useful idiots - for both sides""

OMIGAWD seems to me that I have seen this phrase used before.

It must be the Foxx/metamars/fraeter/mickeymouse sock puppet.

dry.gif or was that ong that used that phrase?,, no I believe it was Foxx.



Hey this is fun. Anyone can play paranoid delusional. I can see why there are so many on this board that do. tongue.gif
RealityCheck
Hi everyone!

TRUCE. PAX.

We've all had our 'fun'. Let's remember that the reputation of Physorg as a 'debating', and not 'slanging', forum is at stake; as well as our individual reputations. Mickey and I have just settled our differences via PMs. I suggest that others do likewise and refrain from continuing futility.

By the way: I'm soon going to be tied up with co-managing/moderating another physics/cosmology sub-forum; and so won't have time/energy to 'roam' as far afield as before. So if I don't 'see' you guys for a while, it's not that I'm igoring y'all, it's just that one can't be everywhere...even if one IS an Aussie! hehehe. Ciao for now, and for awhile, mateys!

Good luck and good thinking to all you guys. Regards....

RealityCheck.
.


yesitdid
QUOTE (mickeydoolittle+Nov 25 2005, 08:44 PM)
. I was just trying to test the good guy persona of RealityCheck to see if it would hold or if it would break into Schneibster whining. Well I believe I have exploited his weakness. Now, I will step back and let the debate continue.

So you think that constant insults and a death threat are the way to move a debate forward?

Good thinking there mickeymouse, you should apply for a job at the State Department. Failing that maybe you can be a union or corporate, contract negotiator.

BTW mickeydoolittle, since it seems to concern you I am in the Central time zone of North America.
yesitdid
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Nov 25 2005, 11:21 PM)
Hi everyone!

TRUCE. PAX.

We've all had our 'fun'. Let's remember that the reputation of Physorg as a 'debating', and not 'slanging', forum is at stake; as well as our individual reputations. Mickey and I have just settled our differences via PMs. I suggest that others do likewise and refrain from continuing futility.

By the way: I'm soon going to be tied up with co-managing/moderating another physics/cosmology sub-forum; and so won't have time/energy to 'roam' as far afield as before. So if I don't 'see' you guys for a while, it's not that I'm igoring y'all, it's just that one can't be everywhere...even if one IS an Aussie! hehehe. Ciao for now, and for awhile, mateys!

Good luck and good thinking to all you guys. Regards....

RealityCheck.
.

Ok, I'm done. I hereby promise not to respond to mickeydoolittle's posts if there are any insults contained within them. I will simply ignore such posts.

yesitdid
What a turn of events.

QUOTE (yestitdid+)
The man is an idiot and on that I do believe you will not argue.


QUOTE (response by mickeydoolittle+)
It takes idiots to believe an idiot.


You do understand that it is you who is believing Mr.Bush when he says that he watched the first plane hit the north tower before entering the classroom?
Foxx
Heh... that was fun reading the last couple of pages, but we really aren't moving the debate forward.

Mickey, I appreciate your sentiments and am sorry to hear your friend was killed in the phony war perpetrated by the neo-cons for their own personal gain.

With regard to the Schneibster, perhaps you misunderstood some of my statements regarding his use of 'sock-puppets'. I personally don't believe that Reality Check, Adoucette, or Yesitdid (the YID) biggrin.gif... are the same person as Schniebster (although one really has no idea of knowing 'who's who' on the impersonal web...do we? How do you actually know that I am not just using this Schneibster character as a sock-puppet?).

In order to recognize a sock-puppet you have to go beyond simply associating the same 'ideology' coming from 'different posters' as 'evidence' of them all being one and the same person.

As far as I can tell, (based upon sentence structure, and psychological red-flags) the only sock-puppet that I have actually been able to determine IS Schneibster... is his 'alter-ego' "CHUCKLES".

If you search the posts from "CHUCKLES" (and their timing to when Schneibster is 'under pressure'), it becomes pretty clear (from a psychological viewpoint) that "Chuckles" & "Schneibster" ARE one and the same.

You might note that they both have a pre-occupation with distasteful 'smells' (which they 'both' accuse opponents of... although so far, the internet is not capable of transmitting messages to olfactory nerves, AFAIK).

You are correct of course, that although I may be 'mistaken' at times... I do not 'lie', whereas Schneibster... well, you decide for yourself based upon his own statements.

I believe the Schneibster accused you (as well as other 'newbies') of being 'me', so you are well aware that he is full of you-know-what. However, please don't drift off into delusions that everyone acting as a government shill IS Schneibster.

I am sure that they, personally, will take great offense to the association. biggrin.gif

I think these issues which we are discussing can be addressed without resorting to the insulting tactics of Schneibster... if YOU begin insulting everyone under the sun, just because they hold different viewpoints from yours, then you will just be following a pattern set by Schneibster.

Please don't go there, or some of us (even those who agree with your ideology) may start to think that you are just another invention of Schniebster.

Actually, why get so uptight about words appearing on your monitor?

Yeah, I like to debate WTC 7 issues... (but like metamars has stated numerous times)... the WTC 7 issue is so obviously a controlled demo, it's really not worth getting into a knot over with those who just can not (or refuse to see) the OBVIOUS.

It is 'good' to have 'devils advocates' such as 'the YID', Reality Check, and Adoucette. Our statements goad them into research for themselves, and their responses goad us into further research to refute the nonsense they spew. biggrin.gif

OK, finished my speal... carry on, but let's get back to the real issues... Schneibster & his sock-puppet(s) are not the REAL issue biggrin.gif

Later.


Foxx
QUOTE (Sinclair+Nov 25 2005, 04:02 PM)
Lets hear it from Prof. Glenn P. Corbett, Assistant Professor of Fire Science at John Jay College of Criminal Justice, before the Committee on Science, House of Representatives, United States Congress. Statement entitled “The Investigation of the World Trade Center Collapse: Findings, Recommendations, and Next Steps” , dated October 26, 2005

link available here www.house.gov/science/hearings/full05/oct%2026/Corbett%20Testimony%20FINAL.pdf


Excerpts:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“Over three years has passed since NIST began its investigation into the World Trade Center disaster. We have now come to the conclusion of this $16 million effort search for answers about what happened in the twin towers. The investigation has taken much longer than anticipated, including the fact that the World Trade Center (building) 7 investigation will likely not be completed next summer.”"During the course of the WTC investigation, I have had serious concerns about some of the findings and conclusions that NIST has drawn. Other individuals, including some people on the federal advisory committee, have also had concerns. While this hearing is not the appropriate place to debate technical issues, I would suggest that a more formal mechanism be developed to officially address comments from the public. Such a protocol should include the technical basis for which NIST rejects or accepts the content a public comment."

"Overall, I have been disappointed by the lack of aggressiveness that has characterized not only the World Trade Center investigation but the Rhode Island Station Nightclub investigation as well. Instead of a “gumshoe” inquiry that left no stone unturned, I believe the investigations were treated more like research projects in which they waited for information to flow to them. In both investigations, they were reluctant to use the subpoena power given to them under the NCST Act. To some extent, the lack of assertiveness was the likely the result of the legal opinions given to NIST by staff attorneys."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

& this is from a guy on the official witness testimony panel at the WTC meeting of October 26, 2005 - Full Committee on Science - Hearing - The Investigation of the World Trade Center Collapse: Findings, Recommendations and Next Steps (see www.house.gov/science/hearings/full05/oct%2026/index.htm )

In addition to Professor Glenn Corbett quoted before, below is criticism raised at the meeting by Sally Regenhard, Chairperson, Skyscraper Safety Campaign: (The SSC represents families and survivors of the WTC disaster)

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In totality however, while some very valuable results were achieved, the overall mode and findings of the investigation was not what I had hoped for. I had certain hopes regarding NIST & the investigation, but I and others were disillusioned regarding what NIST was willing and able to do. I had hoped for more specific and comprehensive recommendations that could easily be translated into code reform and change, but this is not the case. The recommendations are very general and lack specifics. I feel that the vagueness of the language was influenced by political correctness and a general reluctance or inability to "investigate", use subpoena power, "lay blame", or even point out the deadly mistakes of 9/11 in the WTC. The following are five areas of concern for the Skyscraper Safety Campaign.

1)        The role of the Port Authority of NYNJ & its’ exemptions from immunities & codes. The failure of the NIST Investigation to comprehensively examine what role these immunities had in the design, construction, maintenance and ultimate collapse of the WTC is of great concern to me.
2)        The lack of more intense emphasis on fireproofing issues, premature disposal of steel evidence, the heavy reliance on computer modeling for fire testing, & the reluctance to focus on cause, blame, and resultant implications are troubling.
3)        The reliance on the voluntary cooperation of key figures in the investigation to provide needed information; placing the former WTC chief structural engineer on the payroll to facilitate his involvement in the investigation, utilizing researchers to the exclusion of true investigators going into the field to obtain evidence is problematic to me. On this last point, I have been married to a NYPD detective sergeant for over 30 years, and I can recognize an Investigation when I see one. I feel the inherent character of NIST as a research rather than investigative agency was a factor in this situation.
4)        The lack of focus on evacuation issues of the WTC such as remoteness of exits, behavior of fleeing persons in the stairwells, & the avoidance of first person accounts of stairwell evacuation, and length of time it took to evacuate the building was a shortcoming.
5)        The relative secrecy of the investigation, and the withholding of all materials and documents used by NIST to arrive at the study's conclusions is very disturbing. These materials should be made available to professionals for further study and analysis, to question and/or duplicate the findings, according to the scientific method, and should not be locked away in the National Archives or anywhere else. I hope I can call on the Science Committee to unlock this information for the American public
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

These are comments from people who were on the (Wtiness) Testimony Panel at the hearing!!!!

It is evidence of un unsatisfactory NIST Investigation which has not looked at all the facts.

Hi Sinclair. Great work you guys are doing in the UK investigating these anomalies!

Yep, I've heard of Corbett before. I always thought he was supporting the 'official story.

It should be an eye-opening experience to those who continue to support NIST as the 'be-all / end-all' 'word-of-god' investigators. That, in conjunction with the New Civil Engineer report is really beginning to sound the death-tolls to the NIST smoke & mirrors show.

I notice (like everyone else) that NIST keeps pushing back the publish date for the 'final' WTC 7 report. Gee, I wonder what the 'problem' is ??? biggrin.gif

Mark my words... the [%$*^&]'s gonna hit the fan when they finally publish their be-all / end-all report on WTC 7. It has gone well beyond fooling the 'great unwashed' now. Now they have to 'fool' structural & civil engineers from around the world...

It will NOT stand up to peer-review scrutiny... that's WHY they've been dragging their tails, but they can't escape from the final outcome.

The 'glass palace of lies' is shattering.

Rejoice! The truth will BE Exposed.

Keep up the good work, B'rer Brits !!!

QUOTE

Lets hear it from Prof. Glenn P. Corbett


Hip, Hip....


HOORAY



newguy
To all: First of all, I am TOTALLY convinced that the U.S. government was involved in the bombing of the WTC and I was convinced of this long before this thread ever came into being. That, however, is not why I'm posting. I spend the vast majority of my time on the Creation/Evolution threads...almost 100%. I have debated, sometimes vigorously, with both adoucette and RealityCheck for months. From a debating standpoint, we are almost 100% totally at odds with each other...that doesn't mean, however, that I harbor any personal malice towards either one of them. I think that I can say with total confidence that they definitely are NOT one and the same person. I know where adoucette lives in the United States because he gave me his address once and I mailed him some dvd's. It is also quite apparent, that RealityCheck is from Australia from reading his posts. Like I said, I not only consistently disagree with them on other threads, but I also disagree with their views on this particular topic. That does NOT, however, give me the right to make any crazy charges that they are one and the same person. Before anyone makes any crazy charge that I'm just another "sock puppet", I would suggest that you check out some of the threads in the Creation/Evolution forum. You will find plenty of the aforementioned debates/disputes between myself and adoucette and RealityCheck. These debates started long before this thread did. Hope that helps clear up at least some of the confusion...

newguy
Guest
Interesting thread...
I usually just browse around and post a comment here and there - especially in the creation/evolution area. It has been my observation that reality check and new guy are one in the same - they always seem to be on at the same time and usually post at the same time. They also accuse other people of having multiple identities - which is usually a sign of guilt. I share a computer with several other people and so I suppose they could be sharing one as well - but they just seem like the same person to me. Not that we need another conspiracy theory here, but what can I say. hehe

Did you hear the one about the levee's being blown up on purpose in New Orleans? Apparently it was blown up on purpose so they could rebuild a new community for affluent tourists and residents. Either that or it has something to do with high oil prices.

Then there's the one about the hurricanes being the result of weather warfare. Weather engineering includes the blow-up of small hurricanes into large ones - using some type of electrical charges. The technology is zealously denied by meterologists and physicists, but it exists anyhow. hehehe biggrin.gif

As far as the WTC conspiracy - I just can't see this being a Bush problem. If it was an American political issue it would have been successful during the Clinton years. I think the Islamic Extremists truly hate us - Demos or Repubs - atheists or religious - they don't even like Muslims. ph34r.gif

Ah, what fun.
RealityCheck
Hi Guest!

Just checking before going to bed here in Aussieland....noticed your little joke re me and newguy. My!...he WILL be pleased to hear he is me, hehehe. Good one.

[What about it, newguy, any chance for a tax break for me over there in Yankyland if we merge our different points of view? Atheist/Christian...THAT should go down well in the next census forms, heh? Good luck with the baby, mate.]

RealityCheck.
.
Piper
It's been a while since I caught up with this thread, but I see nothing much has changed. Same old lies covering up more and more damning evidence. Those were great pics of the spire a few pages back, by the way.

There are some very educational posts in this thread. While I haven't learned much about 9/11 that I hadn't uncovered on my own, it's a good education on shills and their tactics. I like knowing who they are on a forum, that way I see what they're defending and know it's a lie. Which reminds me, I have to look deeper into (and may have to adjust my views on) global warming since adoucette agreed with one of my posts on that topic!

By the way, a great article exposing the various types of shill tactics seen in this thread is Zen... And the Art of Debunkery - good reading material for those interested! wink.gif
newguy
QUOTE (Guest+Nov 26 2005, 08:10 AM)
Interesting thread...
I usually just browse around and post a comment here and there - especially in the creation/evolution area.  It has been my observation that reality check and new guy are one in the same - they always seem to be on at the same time and usually post at the same time.  They also accuse other people of having multiple identities - which is usually a sign of guilt.  I share a computer with several other people and so I suppose they could be sharing one as well - but they just seem like the same person to me.  Not that we need another conspiracy theory here, but what can I say.  hehe

Guest: Here is my observation: You're not too bright...to say the least.

To all: As I said, feel free to roam through the Creation/Evolution threads. Start around the end of August, when I first started posting. You will find some rather heated discussions between myself(who live in Pennsylvania) and RealityCheck(who apparently lives in Australia). Although we've ceased in the personal attacks of each other and have gone back to civilized debate, RealityCheck has accused me of such things as having an "echo chamber"(as in there's nothing in my head) inside my head. As I said, RealityCheck and I have settled and ceased our personal attacks of each other and have gone back to just plain old debating. I'll be happy to post a whole bunch of links to some of the dialogue that has gone on between us, if for no other reason than to show that Guest has no discernment. By the way, RealityCheck, Grumpy, Steveo(all evolutionists) and I(creationist) have all put aside our differences and have rallied around one thing. There is someone on the Creation/Evolution forum(interestingly enough, he's gone far enough to accuse me and RealityCheck of being the same person...hmmm...could he be "guest"?) that we all suspect has simply changed his username. We've all challenged him repeatedly to either admit or deny it. To this date, he just continues to sidestep the question. Anyhow, like I said, I'll be happy to provide you with links to much heated dialogue between myself and RealityCheck if that will help to prove who has discernment and who doesn't. Thanks.


RealityCheck: If enough idiots post on this forum...who knows, we might wind up being best friends if for no other reason than lack of better forum friends to choose from. Have a good one.
Brian
9-11 Probers Leave Questions Behind

By Jarrett Murphy | November 22, 2005

The private watchdog group formed by the former members of the 9-11 Commission is closing up shop. The announcement of its last media event—a December 5 briefing where the 9-11 Discourse Project "will issue its final assessment of progress on all 9/11 Commission recommendations"—came today. This is no surprise: The project (funded by entities like the Carnegie Corporation, the Drexel Family Foundation, and the Rockefeller Brothers Fund) was intended to last for just a year after the commission expired in August 2004, its mission to "educate the public on the issue of terrorism and what can be done to make the country safer." But even if this end was long planned, it doesn't mean everyone thinks the job is finished.

"I think it's really ironic that they are closing up shop at a time when their credibility is being called into question because of Able Danger," says Debra Burlingame, whose brother was pilot of the plane that hijackers flew into the Pentagon.

Able Danger is the secret military intelligence unit featured in stories published this summer in which military officers claimed that they had information about lead hijacker Mohammed Atta a year before the 9-11 attack. What's more, the sources of the story claim they told the 9-11 commission about it, but that information was left out of the final report. The 9-11 commissioners have dismissed the story as overblown, claiming in an op-ed piece just this week that their staff checked out the story and found no evidence it was true.

Able Danger isn't the only question that people keep asking. People who lost firefighters sons, husbands, and brothers still want answers regarding the issues of command & control and radio communication. "The questions that remain unanswered are the whole stuff of chapter 9," says Sally Regenhard, founder of the Skyscraper Safety Campaign, who lost her firefighter son in the towers. "What happened to New York?" Others feel the commission played politics with its finding that Iraq and al Qaeda had no meaningful connections. And Burlingame feels the commission was never disposed to really examine what damage was done by the legal "wall" separating intelligence and criminal investigations at the FBI, since one of the commissioners, Jamie Gorelick, played a role in interpreting that rule during her Justice Department stint under Bill Clinton. Other commission members had similar conflicts on other issues, leading to a lot of recusals.

"There has never been any explanation regarding the timelines between the FAA and NORAD about who notified whom and when," says Colleen Kelly, who lost her brother at the WTC (Kelly was speaking for herself but serves as the New York coordinator for Peaceful Tomorrows). "There was conflicting testimony between when (former FAA administrator) Jane Garvey appeared and (NORAD commander Gen. Ralph) Eberhardt did. Their timelines don't match. They're off by about 20 minutes."

Questions—some legitimate and others of the far-out-conspiracy-theory type—also linger over the collapse of the buildings at ground zero, even though NIST has released its final report on the twin towers. This spring, NIST plan to close the final phase of its investigation, which covers WTC7. That will apparently be the final word of any government-sanctioned probe of the deadliest terrorist attack in history.

"My real concern is that if this is wrapping up the work, what's next? Because obviously we're not at the truth. That seems pretty clearm" Kelly says. "My grave concern is, now what?"

In the vaccum left by incomplete official inquiries, questions linger, valid and otherwise: Forty-two years after Lee Harvey's lucky shot, people still wonder if LBJ had JFK eliminated.

"I think that we have to look at these alternative groups and these alternative people who are continuing to make films and bring their research to the public," says Regenhard. "Maybe people thought they were fringe groups or crazy but these are the only people left." She also hopes to set up an academic department for 9-11 studies somewhere in New York.

Posted in Citystate

http://www.villagevoice.com/blogs/powerpla...ives/002090.php
metamars
QUOTE

I like knowing who they are on a forum, that way I see what they're defending and know it's a lie. Which reminds me, I have to look deeper into (and may have to adjust my views on) global warming since adoucette agreed with one of my posts on that topic!


I found this pretty funny.

Sorry, adoucette. I'm sure you feel the same way about me, which doesn't bother me at all!


QUOTE (->
QUOTE

I like knowing who they are on a forum, that way I see what they're defending and know it's a lie. Which reminds me, I have to look deeper into (and may have to adjust my views on) global warming since adoucette agreed with one of my posts on that topic!


I found this pretty funny.

Sorry, adoucette. I'm sure you feel the same way about me, which doesn't bother me at all!



By the way, a great article exposing the various types of shill tactics seen in this thread is Zen... And the Art of Debunkery  - good reading material for those interested! wink.gif


Interesting read. From the article:

QUOTE

Insist that the progress of science depends on explaining the unknown in terms of the known. In other words, science equals reductionism. You can apply the reductionist approach in any situation by discarding more and more and more evidence until what little is left can finally be explained entirely in terms of established knowledge.


Of course, physicists DID accept relativity and quantum mechanics during the last century, and both of these were not only revolutions in thought, but very unintuitive ones at that. And these revolutions in thought did not require that the older generations of physicists die off, notwithstanding famous quotations to the contrary.

However, while recognizing that progress in physics would grind to a slow crawl if every new theory that comes along was considered as of equal potential weight with current theories, even if it seems to violate established knowledge, it is still stunning to me that the physics community would not only ignore, but even punish researchers whose experimental results fall too far from the tree of orthodoxy.

It's not nice to fool Mother Nature. Why on earth would anybody argue with her?

From metaresearch.org

QUOTE (->
QUOTE

Insist that the progress of science depends on explaining the unknown in terms of the known. In other words, science equals reductionism. You can apply the reductionist approach in any situation by discarding more and more and more evidence until what little is left can finally be explained entirely in terms of established knowledge.


Of course, physicists DID accept relativity and quantum mechanics during the last century, and both of these were not only revolutions in thought, but very unintuitive ones at that. And these revolutions in thought did not require that the older generations of physicists die off, notwithstanding famous quotations to the contrary.

However, while recognizing that progress in physics would grind to a slow crawl if every new theory that comes along was considered as of equal potential weight with current theories, even if it seems to violate established knowledge, it is still stunning to me that the physics community would not only ignore, but even punish researchers whose experimental results fall too far from the tree of orthodoxy.

It's not nice to fool Mother Nature. Why on earth would anybody argue with her?

From metaresearch.org


Something has gone wrong in the field of astronomy. Many widely held beliefs fly in the face of observational evidence. Theories go through such contortions to resolve inconsistencies that the ideas can no longer be explained in simple language. Alternative ideas are often rejected out of hand simply because they challenge the status quo. The result... many of  today's theories are unnecessarily complex.

"What is the speed of gravity?"

Meta Research is dedicated to bringing some common sense back to this field. Here we challenge ideas that have consistently failed to make successful predictions, examine new paradigms, and advocate the ideas found to be most worthy of further consideration and testing.

Intuitively, most of us understand that an idea's popularity is no more an appropriate measure of its validity today than it has been at any other time in history. Yet those who question any widely accepted theories are labeled ignorant, and if they persist are branded cranks, charlatans, or worse. Meta Research does not claim to have all the answers. But here at least it is safe to ask the rude questions... and to make a case for alternative hypotheses.


Historians of science should, I believe, concern themselves with why some new, valid theories take longer to establish than others. If they've already done so, please post a link.

If anybody has any links (hopefully accessible to laymen) regarding formal, rigorous approaches to physics theories that seeks to show that they meet some concept of a "good theory", please post. What I am thinking here is: where is roughly the equivalent of Kurt Goedel's Incompletenes Theorem which regards physics theories from the point of view of their use of adjustable constants and the facts that they fail (or are expected to fail) outside some domain or in some limit.

It may turn out that you can show that you must have adjustable parameters or some other type of seemingly ad hoc, arbitrary construct because a TOE is a logical impossibility, but that this is still not an invitation to employ as many adjustable parameters as one pleases, because (speaking loosely) in the limit that the number of adjustable parameters goes to infinity, your "theory" turns into a pile of crap. (Think Ptolemaic epicycles, here.)


Put differently, somebody should address, from a formal logical point of view, what exactly constitutes the "contortions" that van Flandern refers to above, and what this tells us (if anything) about how "good" a physics theory is.
Foxx
YESITDID


QUOTE
Originally posted by Foxx
I have not been able to find any photos or videos of the south face of WTC 7, nor any firefighter testimony which supports the idea of massive damage to the center of the south face as purported in the NIST schematic of alleged impact damage.


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Originally posted by Foxx
I have not been able to find any photos or videos of the south face of WTC 7, nor any firefighter testimony which supports the idea of massive damage to the center of the south face as purported in the NIST schematic of alleged impact damage.


Originally posted by YID
Yes, there are few photos of the south side of WTC 7. Gee, I wonder why? Could it be the absolute destruction and dangerous condition of the structures to the south of WTC 7 and the smoke and dust from the fires to the south of WTC 7? No, that could not possibly be the reason that there are few photos of the south side of WTC 7 so it must be a conspiracy to suppress any photos of the south side of WTC 7.
Correct?


Sigh ~ No, YID ... it is not a 'conspiracy' that there are few photos of the south face of WTC 7. It is exactly as you say 'destruction and dangerous conditions to the south of WTC 7'... would be a valid reason for there being few photos of the south face.

You are using straw-man tactics in an attempt to refute what I have actually said. I have never said (nor implied) that there is any sort of 'conspiracy' related to the lack of photos of south face WTC 7 photos. IIRC, what I said/implied was that simply because there are NO photos showing an alleged hole in the center of the south face of WTC 7, you (& NIST) have absolutely no photographic or video record of the [b]NIST-alleged massive hole in the 'center of the south face' of WTC 7 (as NIST graphically represents in their following diagram)...

User posted image

Please don't put words or 'conspiracies' into my mouth. You have not addressed the facts by changing the focus of the point I was trying to make.

QUOTE
Originally posted by YID
At any rate your contention that there are no photos of the south side of WTC 7 is shown to be false (or at least there are photos you could not find) and your contention that there are no firefighter descriptions of damage to the south side of WTC is shown to be false.


Sheesh. I must try to remember that you seize upon every single word looking for something to attack (rather than addressing the entire body and context of statements made).

You are correct. I 'mispoke' in the above quote when I said 'NO Photos of the south side of WTC 7'.

If you had been concentrating on the entire conversation in context (instead of looking for a misplaced or mispoken word) you would have realized that I meant NO Photos of THE HOLE IN THE CENTER OF THE SOUTH FACE OF WTC 7 (which the whole conversation was based around).

Are you happy now that you have found a word out of place, which provides an opportunity to say that my quote is 'false'?

I guess Schneibster will be adding that one also to my ever-growing 'list of lies' biggrin.gif

However you also slip in to that statement that...
"there are no firefighter descriptions of damage to the south side of WTC is shown to be false".

This is again putting straw man words in my mouth, and you have again twisted what I actually stated.

I stated there are no firefighter statements which can be used as 'evidence' to support the NIST-alleged hole in the CENTER of the south face of WTC 7

There are firefighter statements (and photo evidence) to support damage to the south face of WTC 7 AT THE SOUTH WEST CORNER, and it is my contention that the witness BOYLE is also referring to this 'south face' damage. Once again, here is the 'evidence' which I have put forward to support this contention...

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Originally posted by YID
At any rate your contention that there are no photos of the south side of WTC 7 is shown to be false (or at least there are photos you could not find) and your contention that there are no firefighter descriptions of damage to the south side of WTC is shown to be false.


Sheesh. I must try to remember that you seize upon every single word looking for something to attack (rather than addressing the entire body and context of statements made).

You are correct. I 'mispoke' in the above quote when I said 'NO Photos of the south side of WTC 7'.

If you had been concentrating on the entire conversation in context (instead of looking for a misplaced or mispoken word) you would have realized that I meant NO Photos of THE HOLE IN THE CENTER OF THE SOUTH FACE OF WTC 7 (which the whole conversation was based around).

Are you happy now that you have found a word out of place, which provides an opportunity to say that my quote is 'false'?

I guess Schneibster will be adding that one also to my ever-growing 'list of lies' biggrin.gif

However you also slip in to that statement that...
"there are no firefighter descriptions of damage to the south side of WTC is shown to be false".

This is again putting straw man words in my mouth, and you have again twisted what I actually stated.

I stated there are no firefighter statements which can be used as 'evidence' to support the NIST-alleged hole in the CENTER of the south face of WTC 7

There are firefighter statements (and photo evidence) to support damage to the south face of WTC 7 AT THE SOUTH WEST CORNER, and it is my contention that the witness BOYLE is also referring to this 'south face' damage. Once again, here is the 'evidence' which I have put forward to support this contention...

Originally posted by Foxx
1. FEMA debris map shows NO perimeter columns at WTC 7

2.Boyle does NOT state that the 20 story hole he saw was in the center of the south face of WTC 7

3. Other firefighters who were MORE specific spoke of only one 20-story hole in the south face of WTC 7 and they claim it was at the southwest corner.

4. NO other firefighters (or witnesses of any sort spoke of a hole in the center of south face of WTC 7

5. There are NO photographs or any other evidence showing a hole in the center of the south face of WTC 7

6. You; Schneibster; NIST; and other gov't apologists have absolutely NO evidence whatsoever of any hole in the south face of WTC 7... EXCEPT the 20 story hole in the southwest corner.

7. NIST has been pleading for photographic evidence of this alleged hole in the center of the south face of WTC 7 since 2002, and has come up with zero evidence.

8. IF, the NIST smoke & mirrors story about this alleged 20 story hole in the center of the south face of WTC 7 were TRUE, THEN, this asymmetric damage would have led to an asymmetric fall in that direction, and everyone knows it did not. NIST (once again) is spreading horsepucky, and you are lapping it up.


Adoucette has attempted to address point #1 by stating...

QUOTE
You take the debris map as gospel, even though it uses words like 'predominate" and "approximate", and while it does note structural materials that were found outside the inner circle, it does NOT say that this accounts for ALL material.


This (in my opinion) does not 'refute' the evidence of the FEMA debris map...

User posted image

All Adoucette does is use sophistry to support a counter arguement for which there is no evidence. The FEMA description states...

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
You take the debris map as gospel, even though it uses words like 'predominate" and "approximate", and while it does note structural materials that were found outside the inner circle, it does NOT say that this accounts for ALL material.


This (in my opinion) does not 'refute' the evidence of the FEMA debris map...

User posted image

All Adoucette does is use sophistry to support a counter arguement for which there is no evidence. The FEMA description states...

Outer circles indicate approximate radius of aluminum cladding and other lighter debris. Heavy X's show where exterior steel columns were found outside the predominate debris areas.


To then deduce that FEMA would not have placed 'HEAVY X's ' at WTC 7... (indicating perimeter columns outside of the normal debris radius for those columns, especially in view of their placement of anomalous columns at WFC 3 and 130 Liberty St.) is a weak argument for which there is no evidence.

I would grant that it is 'possible', but would not grant that it is 'plausible' given all the rest of the evidence (in points 2 - 8) which you are conveniently ignoring.

All of your 'boogie-woogie' about what YOU SEE in the 'fuzzy' picture L-23 is just your own biased photographic interpretation...

user posted image

As you are not a photographic analysis expert, your opinions on 'what you see' in the picture, are not evidence of anything at all (except your own unqualified opinions). IF you can get a photo-analysis expert to verify that what you 'see' in this unclear photo is what is actually there, THEN you may have evidence to support your contention.

As you have not provided anything of an independant nature to verify your 'vision', your so-called 'evidence' means nothing at all, and your accusation that I am 'wrong' holds no evidentiary weight at all. It is simply your 'unqualified' opinion.

Do you have ANYTHING AT ALL (outside of your own 'opinion')... to support the NIST-alleged great gaping hole in the CENTER of the south face of WTC 7?

Please do not use the 'unsupported' NIST-alleged schematic of a huge gaping hole in the CENTER of the south face of WTC 7. You can not use unsupported postulations as evidence of the unsupported postulation.

You need independant evidence, and as far as I have seen you have brought forth nothing so far (apart from your unqualified photo analysis - which flies in the face of the 'official' FEMA debris map)... and your mis-interpretation of the statements of ONE firefighter, (taken out of context and in opposition of the testimony of numerous other firefighters who saw the south face and DO NOT report ANY huge gaping holes EXCEPT at the southwest corner).


yesitdid
Interesting read Foxx.

However , although the two speakers you quote have reservations about some aspects of the NIST reports , nothing they say illustrates that they believe that the attacks of 9/11 were an 'inside' job or that anything other than hijacked aircraft caused the damage to the various buildings.

Prof. Glenn P. Corbett is concerned about the amount of time that NIST has taken to do its investigation and the lack of aggressiveness in NIST inquiry. He is mostly concerned that the report will not lay blame.
He is a fire science expert. Unless some other quote of his can show differently I believe his concern would be that NIST will not point out the problems with fire codes that allowed fires to spread, that allowed redundant, active suppression systems to not be mandatory in high rises and other such things that contributed to the collapses and loss of life.

Sally Regenhard has similar concerns. Her groups main concerns are characterized by the following, "I had hoped for more specific and comprehensive recommendations that could easily be translated into code reform and change, but this is not the case." Indeed of her 5 points of concern , numbers 1, 2, and 4 are directly challenging NIST to bring forward fire code recommendations on fireproofing and emergency egress and the PANYC's exemptions from having to adhere to even those codes that are in place.

Neither speaker has questioned the actual cause or mode of collapse.

I was also somewhat taken aback when I first learned that the PANYC had these immunities from fire codes.
yesitdid
QUOTE (Foxx+Nov 26 2005, 03:31 PM)
YESITDID


QUOTE
Originally posted by Foxx
I have not been able to find any photos or videos of the south face of WTC 7, nor any firefighter testimony which supports the idea of massive damage to the center of the south face as purported in the NIST schematic of alleged impact damage.


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Originally posted by Foxx
I have not been able to find any photos or videos of the south face of WTC 7, nor any firefighter testimony which supports the idea of massive damage to the center of the south face as purported in the NIST schematic of alleged impact damage.


Originally posted by YID
Yes, there are few photos of the south side of WTC 7. Gee, I wonder why? Could it be the absolute destruction and dangerous condition of the structures to the south of WTC 7 and the smoke and dust from the fires to the south of WTC 7? No, that could not possibly be the reason that there are few photos of the south side of WTC 7 so it must be a conspiracy to suppress any photos of the south side of WTC 7.
Correct?


Sigh ~ No, YID ... it is not a 'conspiracy' that there are few photos of the south face of WTC 7. It is exactly as you say 'destruction and dangerous conditions to the south of WTC 7'... would be a valid reason for there being few photos of the south face.

<<snip>>
User posted image



QUOTE
Originally posted by YID
At any rate your contention that there are no photos of the south side of WTC 7 is shown to be false (or at least there are photos you could not find) and your contention that there are no firefighter descriptions of damage to the south side of WTC is shown to be false.


...............

........You are correct. I 'misspoke' in the above quote when I said 'NO Photos of the south side of WTC 7'.

If you had been concentrating on the entire conversation in context (instead of looking for a misplaced or misspoken word) you would have realized that I meant NO Photos of THE HOLE IN THE CENTER OF THE SOUTH FACE OF WTC 7 (which the whole conversation was based around).

...............
.....However you also slip in to that statement that...
"there are no firefighter descriptions of damage to the south side of WTC is shown to be false".

This is again putting straw man words in my mouth, and you have again twisted what I actually stated.

I stated there are no firefighter statements which can be used as 'evidence' to support the NIST-alleged hole in the CENTER of the south face of WTC 7

There are firefighter statements (and photo evidence) to support damage to the south face of WTC 7 AT THE SOUTH WEST CORNER, and it is my contention that the witness BOYLE is also referring to this 'south face' damage. Once again, here is the 'evidence' which I have put forward to support this contention...

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Originally posted by YID
At any rate your contention that there are no photos of the south side of WTC 7 is shown to be false (or at least there are photos you could not find) and your contention that there are no firefighter descriptions of damage to the south side of WTC is shown to be false.


...............

........You are correct. I 'misspoke' in the above quote when I said 'NO Photos of the south side of WTC 7'.

If you had been concentrating on the entire conversation in context (instead of looking for a misplaced or misspoken word) you would have realized that I meant NO Photos of THE HOLE IN THE CENTER OF THE SOUTH FACE OF WTC 7 (which the whole conversation was based around).

...............
.....However you also slip in to that statement that...
"there are no firefighter descriptions of damage to the south side of WTC is shown to be false".

This is again putting straw man words in my mouth, and you have again twisted what I actually stated.

I stated there are no firefighter statements which can be used as 'evidence' to support the NIST-alleged hole in the CENTER of the south face of WTC 7

There are firefighter statements (and photo evidence) to support damage to the south face of WTC 7 AT THE SOUTH WEST CORNER, and it is my contention that the witness BOYLE is also referring to this 'south face' damage. Once again, here is the 'evidence' which I have put forward to support this contention...

Originally posted by Foxx
1. FEMA debris map shows NO perimeter columns at WTC 7

2.Boyle does NOT state that the 20 story hole he saw was in the center of the south face of WTC 7

3. Other firefighters who were MORE specific spoke of only one 20-story hole in the south face of WTC 7 and they claim it was at the southwest corner.

4. NO other firefighters (or witnesses of any sort spoke of a hole in the center of south face of WTC 7

5. There are NO photographs or any other evidence showing a hole in the center of the south face of WTC 7

6. You; Schneibster; NIST; and other gov't apologists have absolutely NO evidence whatsoever of any hole in the south face of WTC 7... EXCEPT the 20 story hole in the southwest corner.

7. NIST has been pleading for photographic evidence of this alleged hole in the center of the south face of WTC 7 since 2002, and has come up with zero evidence.

8. IF, the NIST smoke & mirrors story about this alleged 20 story hole in the center of the south face of WTC 7 were TRUE, THEN, this asymmetric damage would have led to an asymmetric fall in that direction, and everyone knows it did not. NIST (once again) is spreading horsepucky, and you are lapping it up.


Adoucette has attempted to address point #1 by stating...

QUOTE
You take the debris map as gospel, even though it uses words like 'predominate" and "approximate", and while it does note structural materials that were found outside the inner circle, it does NOT say that this accounts for ALL material.


This (in my opinion) does not 'refute' the evidence of the FEMA debris map...

User posted image

All Adoucette does is use sophistry to support a counter argument for which there is no evidence. The FEMA description states...

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
You take the debris map as gospel, even though it uses words like 'predominate" and "approximate", and while it does note structural materials that were found outside the inner circle, it does NOT say that this accounts for ALL material.


This (in my opinion) does not 'refute' the evidence of the FEMA debris map...

User posted image

All Adoucette does is use sophistry to support a counter argument for which there is no evidence. The FEMA description states...

Outer circles indicate approximate radius of aluminum cladding and other lighter debris. Heavy X's show where exterior steel columns were found outside the predominate debris areas.


To then deduce that FEMA would not have placed 'HEAVY X's ' at WTC 7... (indicating perimeter columns outside of the normal debris radius for those columns, especially in view of their placement of anomalous columns at WFC 3 and 130 Liberty St.) is a weak argument for which there is no evidence.

I would grant that it is 'possible', but would not grant that it is 'plausible' given all the rest of the evidence (in points 2 - 8) which you are conveniently ignoring.

All of your 'boogie-woogie' about what YOU SEE in the 'fuzzy' picture L-23 is just your own biased photographic interpretation...

user posted image

As you are not a photographic analysis expert, your opinions on 'what you see' in the picture, are not evidence of anything at all (except your own unqualified opinions). IF you can get a photo-analysis expert to verify that what you 'see' in this unclear photo is what is actually there, THEN you may have evidence to support your contention.

As you have not provided anything of an independent nature to verify your 'vision', your so-called 'evidence' means nothing at all, and your accusation that I am 'wrong' holds no evidential weight at all. It is simply your 'unqualified' opinion.

Do you have ANYTHING AT ALL (outside of your own 'opinion')... to support the NIST-alleged great gaping hole in the CENTER of the south face of WTC 7?

Please do not use the 'unsupported' NIST-alleged schematic of a huge gaping hole in the CENTER of the south face of WTC 7. You can not use unsupported postulations as evidence of the unsupported postulation.

You need independent evidence, and as far as I have seen you have brought forth nothing so far (apart from your unqualified photo analysis - which flies in the face of the 'official' FEMA debris map)... and your mis-interpretation of the statements of ONE firefighter, (taken out of context and in opposition of the testimony of numerous other firefighters who saw the south face and DO NOT report ANY huge gaping holes EXCEPT at the southwest corner).


Amazing, simply amazing. You accuse me of using a straw man argument's by utilizing the fact that you failed to mention one word yet you dismiss or twist Boyle's statement twice because of the omission of a word.
First you complained that Greenwich and Vesey do not intersect when it is obvious that Boyle was referring to his going to Greenwich and then Vesey, and again when he says that he saw a large hole in the south but not the center of the south face of WTC. You ignore completely that he has come around #7 from the east side putting him in a position in which his view of the center of that face would be much better than of the far corner. You complain that I twisted your words and then immediately repeat your twisting of Boyle's words!

You complain that I am not a photo expert and then cannot determine what the above photo is showing.

Directly under the "2001" in the copyright banner in the photo there are unmistakable damaged structural elements of some sort. The wall under the walkway continues to the right, past the walkway and it is obvious(no degree in photographic sciences required) then, that the structure above and to the right of the walkway is part of WTC 7. All of this requires no more photographic expertise to see than it does to notice the extensive damage to the SW corner in photos of that area.

You have agreed that there is a good deal of damage at the SW corner of the WTC 7. If the FEMA diagram of neat concentric circles of the extent of debris is as sacrosanct as you claim then what caused the damage to the SW corner of WTC 7? After all , according to you the FEMA illustration means no large debris landed north of the north face of WTC 6(across Vesey Street from WTC 7). You dismiss a few words, " approximate" and "predominant" in the caption of that illustration in the same way you dismiss Boyle's statement for his omitting a word.
frater plecticus
T MINUS ONE AND COUNTING...

user posted image

NOBODY NOTICED The video I posted 2 pages ago IS OF THE SOUTH FACE.

DOWNLOAD 5MB quicktime


QUOTE
A smoke-screen is a release of smoke in order to mask the movement or location of military units such as infantry, tanks or ships.

It is most commonly deployed in a canister, usually as a grenade. The grenade releases a very dense cloud of smoke designed to fill the surrounding area even in light wind. They have also been used by ships.

Whereas smokescreens would originally have been used to hide movement from enemies' line of sight, modern technology means that they are now also available in new forms; they can screen in the infrared as well as visible spectrum of light to prevent detection by infrared sensors or viewers, and also available for vehicles is a superdense form used to prevent laser beams of enemy target designators or range finders on vehicles.


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
A smoke-screen is a release of smoke in order to mask the movement or location of military units such as infantry, tanks or ships.

It is most commonly deployed in a canister, usually as a grenade. The grenade releases a very dense cloud of smoke designed to fill the surrounding area even in light wind. They have also been used by ships.

Whereas smokescreens would originally have been used to hide movement from enemies' line of sight, modern technology means that they are now also available in new forms; they can screen in the infrared as well as visible spectrum of light to prevent detection by infrared sensors or viewers, and also available for vehicles is a superdense form used to prevent laser beams of enemy target designators or range finders on vehicles.


7 World Trade Center:
Secret Service, New York Electronics Crimes Taskforce
Television documentary
http://www.g4tv.com/mediaplayer/videostrea...0402a_165_0.asf
http://www.g4tv.com/techtvvault/features/2...et_Service.html

The Secret Service New York Field Office was located in 7 World Trade Center, which, along with Towers 1 and 2, collapsed following the terrorist attacks. One employee, Master Special Officer Craig Miller, died during the rescue efforts. Miller was temporarily assigned to New York in preparation for the United Nations General Assembly. Following the attacks, Secret Service employees were some of the first to respond with first aid trauma kits. Special agents assisted local fire and police rescue in establishing triage areas and helping evacuate people from the Towers.

http://www.secretservice.gov/press/pub1202.pdf

The resolution honoring the Secret Service notes the “extraordinary performance and commitment to service during and immediately following the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001" of the men and women of that agency. It notes that “the United States Secret Service New York field office located in 7 World Trade Center was destroyed on September 11, 2001, as a result of terrorist attacks”; agents “throughout the day of the attacks and subsequent days...continually and knowingly placed themselves in exceptional danger in their efforts to save life”; and “in selfless dedication to others, Master Special Officer Craig Miller was lost in the collapse of the World Trade Center.”

http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/ok05_...oms_honors.html

The Secret Service maintained a large field office inside the World Trade Centre, and initially many agents were thought to have been killed.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...6%2Fwbush16.xml

Image: http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/craig-miller-photo-01.jpg

Arlington Cemetary Website: Craig Miller
http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/craig-miller.htm


From Dec. 2001 article in "intercom", a "Journal of the Air Force Communications and Information Community", p. 8, "Scott NCOs give personal account of World Trade Center survival":
"...four Air Force Communications Agency members ...Tech Sgt. Shawn Haynes and Staff Sgts. Craig Walentowski, Mark Provo and Lonnie Wells, of the Air Force Protective Communications Support team, were on temporary duty in New York City to provide communications support for the Secret Service for United Nations General Assembly 56. They left Scott AFB Aug. 27 and were scheduled to return Oct. 5, before their mission was curt short by the destruction of the World Trade Center.


QUOTE

"We were there to provide radio, telephone, computer, cellular phone, and paging support for the assembly," said Sergeant Haynes.

The four had left a morning briefing and begun preparing for the day's mission when the first airliner struck the north tower.

Sergeants Haynes, Walentowski and Provo were working on the 10th floor of Building 7.

"Craig was issuing cellular phones, Mark was gettin ready to go out on a protection detail, and I was installing a telephone line," Sergeant Haynes said.

"I think anybody who was near a window saw a flash--a blue flash," he said. "Mark described it as a clap of thunder, or a transformer explosion. It didn't seem like an airplane hitting a building. My first thought was of the night before. We'd had storms and I thought maybe more had rolled in. Then we all looked outside---there was paper everywhere. We immediately started to evacuate the building.

"Building 7 faces the back side of Towers 1 and 2, so we didn't realize anything hit the front," Sergeant Haynes said. "We assumed it was some sort of explosion."

"Once we got to the lobby we saw security guards had locked the doors," he said. "The whole front of the building was glass and they were pushing everyone away, keeping about a 10-foot perimeter. Nobody really questioned that too much."

"We were all standing around the lobby when there was a second explosion," he said. "Some people happened to be looking out the windows and saw it, other people just heard it. When we looked up we could see the second building was engulfed in flames. At that point it clicked--this wasn't an accident.

"The anticipation rose and being locked in didn't sound like a good idea anymore," Sergeant Haynes said. "People started to get anxious and wanted out. The guards opened a door in the lobby that led to a loading dock exit into an alleyway on the back side of the building. It was somewhat chaotic, yet orderly. Nobody was crawling over anybody to get out. People were taking care of each other. As we went to the ground level to get out the back door, we could look out the front door at street level and see there was a lot of debris."
...
"The scariest part for us was when we exited the lobby together into a back alleyway," Sergeant Haynes said. "It was a narrow exit and we got separated. After a short time, Craig and I ran into each other on the street and then we ran into Lonnie. We got word over the radio to muster at the ball field. When we got there Building 2 came down. We couldn't see it, because Building 1 blocked our view, but we heard another explosion, which we first thought was a third plane or a bomb. Those rumors were circulating in the crowd and then we saw the humongous dust cloud. We had to take off so we wouldn't be engulfed in ti as well

"It was just pur luck that we ran into Mark at that time....

"After the first building had fallen we heard another plane and everybody started running and ducking," Wells said. "But then we looked up and saw Air Force fighter aircraft. As soon as the crowd realized they were our fighters, everybody started clapping...

"All the Secret Service eventually met at Chelsea Pier," Sergeant Haynes said. "After a couple hours, police boats took us across the Hudson River to New Jersey, and then they chartered buses that took us to Washington, D.C. We spent Tuesday night and all day Wednesday trying to get out of D.C....We got a rental car and ended up driving back to Scott Thursday night."

"It's hard," Sergeant Haynes said. "As GIs, we're trained to help, and we're taught you don't leave people behind. But in that situation, security people kept us out of the area. We weren't in a position to help anybody, because we'd have been going upstream to get there. It's hard to think about all the people who needed help. We're not heroes, we're just lucky survivors."
http://public.afca.af.mil/Intercom/2001/01dec.pdf
Foxx
frater, I'm not sure how your above posting fits in with or is relevant to the alleged south face center damage hole claimed by NIST? Please explain.

Yesitdid

QUOTE
Originally posted by Yesitdid
Amazing, simply amazing. You accuse me of using a straw man argument's by utilizing the fact that you failed to mention one word yet you dismiss or twist Boyle's statement twice because of the omission of a word.


I am neither dismissing nor twisting Boyles statement. As he does not mention where exactly on the south face of WTC 7, then it is presumptuous to add words to his statement which fits your contention.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Originally posted by Yesitdid
Amazing, simply amazing. You accuse me of using a straw man argument's by utilizing the fact that you failed to mention one word yet you dismiss or twist Boyle's statement twice because of the omission of a word.


I am neither dismissing nor twisting Boyles statement. As he does not mention where exactly on the south face of WTC 7, then it is presumptuous to add words to his statement which fits your contention.

First you complained that Greenwich and Vesey do not intersect when it is obvious that Boyle was referring to his going to Greenwich and then Vesey...


That may be so, but it is irrelevant. Greenwich really has nothing to do with anything except maybe where he was before he arrived on Vesey.

QUOTE
...and again when he says that he saw a large hole in the south but not the center of the south face of WTC.


I am not dismissing the fact that he claims he saw a hole in the south side, but neither should one be prepared to 'add in words' that he did not state to support a position which is unsupported in any other way... not to mention the fact that you continue to ignore the alternative supporting evidence that other firefighters also reported a '20 story hole' in the south face but were more specific than Boyle and did add the qualifier that such hole was at the southwest corner. It is not proper logic to completely dismiss at least 2 other firefighters statements which speak of a 20 story hole, ( and place the location af that hole at the southwest corner), and then turn around and take a third firefighters statement (who also speaks of a 20 story hole with fires at various levels, yet is not specific as to its exact location on the face), and arbitrarily decide (because it fits with your contention)that he must have been talking about another hole (having the same characteristics described by the other firefighters) but being in a different location that that described by the others. That is invalid deduction. Just as you put words into my mouth, you are attempting to put words into Boyles mouth which he DID NOT say.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
...and again when he says that he saw a large hole in the south but not the center of the south face of WTC.


I am not dismissing the fact that he claims he saw a hole in the south side, but neither should one be prepared to 'add in words' that he did not state to support a position which is unsupported in any other way... not to mention the fact that you continue to ignore the alternative supporting evidence that other firefighters also reported a '20 story hole' in the south face but were more specific than Boyle and did add the qualifier that such hole was at the southwest corner. It is not proper logic to completely dismiss at least 2 other firefighters statements which speak of a 20 story hole, ( and place the location af that hole at the southwest corner), and then turn around and take a third firefighters statement (who also speaks of a 20 story hole with fires at various levels, yet is not specific as to its exact location on the face), and arbitrarily decide (because it fits with your contention)that he must have been talking about another hole (having the same characteristics described by the other firefighters) but being in a different location that that described by the others. That is invalid deduction. Just as you put words into my mouth, you are attempting to put words into Boyles mouth which he DID NOT say.

You ignore completely that he has come around #7 from the east side putting him in a position in which his view of the center of that face would be much better than of the far corner. You complain that I twisted your words and then immediately repeat your twisting of Boyle's words!


I'm not ignoring the fact that he was on the east corner looking across the south face... however, just because that puts him in a location where he would be closer to the center of the south face than the far corner; is no evidence at all that the hole he saw was IN the center. He is looking across the south face at an extreme oblique angle which would distort his perspective. He sees a hole in the south face, but simply because he is closer to the mid point of the building as opposed to the opposite corner is once again NO evidence that the hole he described MUST have been closer to his position. He is looking across the full south face. Given his position and his oblique viewing angle, the smoke debris and confusion, I doubt whether he could tell from his vantage point where on the south face the hole was. Even IF he could, he DID NOT state that there were two holes, nor did he state that the one hole was at the midpoint of the building face. It seems to me that you are investing huge credibilty into a statement (which you must admit that you have 'added' words to), while on the other hand completely dismiss huge numbers of firefighters and others who spoke of explosions heard and brisant flashes seen at the towers prior to their collapse. This is sheer hypocrisy. Why you adamantly insist upon your interpretation of ONE firefighters statement on this one issue (because it supports your contention in that case), and yet blighthly turn around and dismiss dozens of other firefighter statements (when it doesn't support your contention) is blatant evidence of your use of sophistry and hypocrisy in your debating technique.


QUOTE
You complain that I am not a photo expert and then cannot determine what the above photo is showing.


I can determine what 'I see' in the walkway photo, however it seems that what I see and what you see are 'different'. I am not claiming to be a photo analysis expert. However what I see is my opinion and what you see is your opinion. Apart from a photo-expert analysis (and possibly photo enhancement) there is no 'factual evidence' which can be readily deduced from that photo. The area in question is in dark shadow and from what I see is not clear enough for me to verify what you allege to see there. Even granting for the sake of arguement that there are no perspective issues which need be taken into account, the alleged hole and columns you claim to see there are too close to the walkway which is at the extreme south east corner of the building to represent a hole 'alleged' to be in the center of the south face of the building. I think this is obvious if you look again at the FEMA debris map and note the position of the walkway, and compare that to the NIST-alleged damage schematic.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
You complain that I am not a photo expert and then cannot determine what the above photo is showing.


I can determine what 'I see' in the walkway photo, however it seems that what I see and what you see are 'different'. I am not claiming to be a photo analysis expert. However what I see is my opinion and what you see is your opinion. Apart from a photo-expert analysis (and possibly photo enhancement) there is no 'factual evidence' which can be readily deduced from that photo. The area in question is in dark shadow and from what I see is not clear enough for me to verify what you allege to see there. Even granting for the sake of arguement that there are no perspective issues which need be taken into account, the alleged hole and columns you claim to see there are too close to the walkway which is at the extreme south east corner of the building to represent a hole 'alleged' to be in the center of the south face of the building. I think this is obvious if you look again at the FEMA debris map and note the position of the walkway, and compare that to the NIST-alleged damage schematic.

Directly under the "2001" in the copyright banner in the photo there are unmistakable damaged structural elements of some sort.


'Unmistakeable' to you, I suppose. I disagree.

QUOTE
The wall under the walkway continues to the right, past the walkway and it is obvious(no degree in photographic sciences required) then, that the structure above and to the right of the walkway is part of WTC 7. All of this requires no more photographic expertise to see than it does to notice the extensive damage to the SW corner in photos of that area.


From the 'fuzzy' photo, I myself can not really determine what the structure which looks like a low wall is. I agree that it appears to extend beyond the position of the walkway, but the perspective from which the camera view is taken can lead to all kinds of misinterpretations of actual placements of things in the photo. What exactly is that which appears to be a low wall? Are you say that is the face of WTC 7? The photo is definately not clear enough to make that assertion from my view. Has the walkway collapsed on an angle towards the center of the building, and away from the corner? I don't know?... but I'm certainly not going to base any theory from what I can determine from some smoky unclear photo which I have no other photos to judge perspectives on. If you are comfortable making those determinations, perhaps you can convince others, but I'm not impressed with your analysis.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The wall under the walkway continues to the right, past the walkway and it is obvious(no degree in photographic sciences required) then, that the structure above and to the right of the walkway is part of WTC 7. All of this requires no more photographic expertise to see than it does to notice the extensive damage to the SW corner in photos of that area.


From the 'fuzzy' photo, I myself can not really determine what the structure which looks like a low wall is. I agree that it appears to extend beyond the position of the walkway, but the perspective from which the camera view is taken can lead to all kinds of misinterpretations of actual placements of things in the photo. What exactly is that which appears to be a low wall? Are you say that is the face of WTC 7? The photo is definately not clear enough to make that assertion from my view. Has the walkway collapsed on an angle towards the center of the building, and away from the corner? I don't know?... but I'm certainly not going to base any theory from what I can determine from some smoky unclear photo which I have no other photos to judge perspectives on. If you are comfortable making those determinations, perhaps you can convince others, but I'm not impressed with your analysis.

You have agreed that there is a good deal of damage at the SW corner of the WTC 7. If the FEMA diagram of neat concentric circles of the extent of debris is as sacrosanct as you claim then what caused the damage to the SW corner of WTC 7? After all , according to you the FEMA illustration means no large debris landed north of the north face of WTC 6(across Vesey Street from WTC 7).


I will admit that you have a valid point here. It may indicate that that southwest corner damage was created by falling perimeter columns (which FEMA has NOT marked on their debris map), however that still does not mean that there must have been another hole in the center of the building.


adoucette
QUOTE (Foxx+)
I will admit that you have a valid point here. It may indicate that that southwest corner damage was created by falling perimeter columns (which FEMA has NOT marked on their debris map), however that still does not mean that there must have been another hole in the center of the building.


So Foxx, what do you make of the NIST picture L-23 b?????

Note the unmistakeable perimeter columns lying in Vesey St, right in front of the WTC 7 building.

Shows a great deal of destruction to the promenade in front of WTC -7 and a fairly raging fire.

I also have to wonder what could have hit the building HARD ENOUGH to knock two 10,000 lb elevators OUT OF THEIR SHAFTS at the 8th and 9th floors AND NOT LEAVE A HOLE IN THE FRONT OF THE BUILDING. Considering the elevators are roughly in the center and 1/3 way back into the building, past the 1st set of core columns.

Arthur
Schneibster
Faux, you have no intention of "moving the debate forward," nor did you ever. If that was your intention, you wouldn't have lied.

Anyone who questions whether it lies should see page 50 for pointers to two posts in which I detailed over thirty-five lies Faux told to which it has never responded.

Please note as well that several sock-puppets of Faux' have posted various personal information about various participants in these debates, which is an attempt to intimidate the opposition; if it's position is so obvious and unassailable, why is it that it needs to use threats, intimidation, and lies to support it?
Foxx
Heh...

Well, look at that... Adoucette & the 'The Shyster' posting at exactly the same time... obviously no sock-puppets there... biggrin.gif

Shills...yes... (but dubious regarding the sock-puppets exercise).

Adoucette,

You make various claims in your post above, but I see no references to 'back-up' (support) such claims.

Kindly reference your source for the claims. Please be specific. Simply stating "I found this information in the NIST reports, and if you had read the reports (and weren't such an idiot, you would have found them yourself")... doesn't quite 'work' for me. Document & page #, please.

QUOTE
So Foxx, what do you make of the NIST picture L-23 b?????


Honestly???

The photo is even 'murkier' than L-23a. I suggest anyone making determinations from such photos would do well at Phil Jayhans magical mystery photo analysis site.

Once again we have the word 'unmistakeable' invoked ! It seems you and the YID love to toss this word around. (YID is also partial to 'ridiculous')

you also use...

"great deal of destruction" and "fairly raging fire"... these terms seem somewhat vague to me, but maybe that's just me?

Can you be a little more specific on the definition of fairly "raging fire" ???

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
So Foxx, what do you make of the NIST picture L-23 b?????


Honestly???

The photo is even 'murkier' than L-23a. I suggest anyone making determinations from such photos would do well at Phil Jayhans magical mystery photo analysis site.

Once again we have the word 'unmistakeable' invoked ! It seems you and the YID love to toss this word around. (YID is also partial to 'ridiculous')

you also use...

"great deal of destruction" and "fairly raging fire"... these terms seem somewhat vague to me, but maybe that's just me?

Can you be a little more specific on the definition of fairly "raging fire" ???

I also have to wonder what could have hit the building HARD ENOUGH to knock two 10,000 lb elevators OUT OF THEIR SHAFTS at the 8th and 9th floors AND NOT LEAVE A HOLE IN THE FRONT OF THE BUILDING. Considering the elevators are roughly in the center and 1/3 way back into the building, past the 1st set of core columns.


I also have wondered about that. Can you give me any kind of timeline as to when this alleged occurance took place? Who made this determination and at what time this occurance was documented?

It seems a little 'odd' to me that two 10,000 lb elevators were blown out of their shafts closer to the centerpoint of the building (well set back from the face of the building). But maybe that's just me? Remember that similar events happened at the Towers. Very odd circumstances.

Please explain through basic physics how an 'alleged' falling object blows 10,000 lb elevator carts out of their shafts. I would presume (simpleton that I am) that a falling object (somehow) penetrating the building facade would tend to drive the impacted body (the elevator cart) downwards through the shaft... as opposed to blowing it horizontally out of its shaft. But maybe that's just me?

Shyster,

anyone who has been following this thread for some time will recall that you complained upon my first posts that I was 'deliberately misspelling your 'nick' in order to disturb or irritate you in a conversation'. I corrected my spelling mistake when I once referred to you as 'Schneidster... rather than "Schneibster". Again... my apologies for this spelling mistake.

However, I note that you did not view my 'typo' as a simple mistake, but took it as some kind of 'insult' (which, I suppose, in the convoluted workings of your mind) 'justifies' your new favourite (and constant) 'mis-spelling' of my 'nick' (changing it from 'Foxx' to 'Faux').

This works well with your meme of accusing me of 'lies'.

Of course we all recognize that the word 'faux' is derived from the french language and translates to 'false'.

Hmmmm ... let's see... 'lies' / 'false'... Yep, that works pretty well, doesn't it?

Hey, not that this bothers me at all. I realize 'Internet trolls' use this play on 'nicks' as a psychological ploy to try to aggravate 'opponents'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

Actually, I think this tactic is quite childish and comedic.

But since you persist in playing this game, I trust you will not be offended by my 'twist' on your nick, and henceforth refer to you as 'Shyster'... (after all, you have tried to represent yourself as some kind of quantum physics professor and structural engineer, when in fact you are just a 'computer guy'.

Just to correct some of your other paranoid delusions and false accusations - your statement...

QUOTE
Please note as well that several sock-puppets of Faux' have posted various personal information about various participants in these debates.


Pfffft !

I remind you again, that I have no 'need' to employ 'sock-puppets' such as your "CHUCKLES" character.

That is a sign of a weak character with emotional problems who seeks self-confirmation.

Again, I suggest you seek some counselling with your problems.

I don't mean this to be demeaning, but rather from the perspective of just trying to help you. Good luck and blessings. I hope you accept my advice in the spirit it is given.

Cheers

BTW - The Truth Will Be Exposed


metamars
An obvious point re WTC 7 that I missed....


Siverstein blabbed:

QUOTE
"We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it. And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse."


From the context of the full quote, it's most likely that "they" are the Fire Department.

It's often been pointed out that the Fire Department doesn't do demolitions, much less demolitions on a couple of hours notice.

Two of the tenants at WTC 7 were DOD and CIA. Since skyscrapers are designed to collapse into their footprints, Silverstein's comments can't be taken seriously at face value even if you believed that such a decision was made that day.

If the DOD and CIA had highly classified information in their offices (in the case of the CIA I find that highly likely) , they would not take kindly to having to search for it in a huge pile of rubble. Thus, Silverstein would not have dared to make this decision by himself, especially since the downside of not pulling the building was to endure a collapse into it's footprint, which is what you end up with if you do a CD, anyway.

Thus, his explanation appears to be a lie from two different perspectives. Furthermore, it suggests a promising avenue of investigation, should we ever get a real one. Viz., put the top DOD and CIA guys under oath and ask them about their input in any decision to pull WTC 7 on that day, as well as any "mysterious" requests to scrub their offices of anything sensitive before 911.



Foxx
heh...

That's a good one, metamars biggrin.gif

So you think that taking an oath before God is incentive for spooks like the CIA to get on a witness stand and tell the truth?

biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif
metamars
QUOTE
So you think that taking an oath before God is incentive for spooks like the CIA to get on a witness stand and tell the truth?


Point taken.

On an individual basis, of course many would lie through their teeth, their conscience smarting them or not. And the higher up you go in the org chart, the more likely you are to see obvious signs of corruption (consider Porter Goss and Rober Mueller.)

However, it gets more interesting as you get beyond the "top guys". Indira Singh, e.g., has been told a lot about how things "really are" by intelligence agents, some of whom are as disgusted with the criminal element infesting Washington as you and I are.

So, I stand corrected, and now rephrase my problematic sentence as

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
So you think that taking an oath before God is incentive for spooks like the CIA to get on a witness stand and tell the truth?


Point taken.

On an individual basis, of course many would lie through their teeth, their conscience smarting them or not. And the higher up you go in the org chart, the more likely you are to see obvious signs of corruption (consider Porter Goss and Rober Mueller.)

However, it gets more interesting as you get beyond the "top guys". Indira Singh, e.g., has been told a lot about how things "really are" by intelligence agents, some of whom are as disgusted with the criminal element infesting Washington as you and I are.

So, I stand corrected, and now rephrase my problematic sentence as

Viz., put DOD and CIA guys who worked in and out of WTC 7 under oath, starting with the top guys, and ask them about their input in any decision to pull WTC 7 on that day, as well as any "mysterious" requests to scrub their offices of anything sensitive before 911.


Note well that if you start with the top guys, while they may be more likely to perjure themselves than if "everybody else" testifies before them, if they DON'T perjure themselves it'll be that much more obvious that they're covering something up.
newguy
QUOTE (Schneibster+Nov 27 2005, 03:24 AM)
Please note as well that several sock-puppets of Faux' have posted various personal information about various participants in these debates, which is an attempt to intimidate the opposition; if it's position is so obvious and unassailable, why is it that it needs to use threats, intimidation, and lies to support it?

Schneibster: Assuming that I'm one of the aforementioned "sock puppets"...
You may indeed like men forcing their hand up your "hole" to get you to move in a certain way, but I wouldn't suggest any one of you trying it with me. Not unless you want to be "leveled" faster than either of the twin towers, that is. All of Schneibster's delusions aside, feel free to click on my username and read all of my previous posts on the physorg.com forum. If any of you do, you'll plainly see that Schneibster is delusional. Thanks.
adoucette
QUOTE (Foxx+)
Adoucette,

You make various claims in your post above, but I see no references to 'back-up' (support) such claims.

Kindly reference your source for the claims. Please be specific. Simply stating "I found this information in the NIST reports, and if you had read the reports (and weren't such an idiot, you would have found them yourself")... doesn't quite 'work' for me. Document & page #, please.


QUOTE 
So Foxx, what do you make of the NIST picture L-23 b?????



Honestly???

The photo is even 'murkier' than L-23a.


Well if you can see photo L-23b then you obviously have the NIST doc (Appendix L, link posted previously).

The reference to the elevators is on page L-18.

The photo is MURKIER?

What about the friggen BLAZE behind the quite damaged WTC 7 Promenade?
What about the WTC 1 External Columns in the foreground?

Its also obvious that the Ped Walkway has been knocked off of WTC 7 and is displaced to the right of the building. Note that there is more damage to the WTC 7 end. I suspect this is because the other WTC building, between WTC 7 and WTC 1 sheltered the other end somewhat.

Arthur
Foxx
This is what I see...

QUOTE
8th / 9th floor from inside, visible south wall gone with more damage to west, 2 elevator cars disloged into elevator lobby


http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/WTC%20Part%20IIC%...pse%20Final.pdf

No references... no sources...nothing about weight of elevator cars... the above really tells me nothing at all.

The document strikes me as if I'm looking at some comic book, or a high-school science project. Where are all the references? Where are the sources for the alleged information? This is supposed to be a draft 'final' report on wtc 7? This is what we get for 16 million and 3 years work by 200+ 'professionals'? It's a JOKE ! I want my money back !!!

And you tell me you believe what you see in this sham?

I want to know by what means did they determine the above statement to be 'fact'? Who are the 'witnesses' to the above damage? How many 'witnesses' reported such an occurance? Exactly how were the elevator cars blown out of the shafts? How far were they blown out of the shafts? What exactly do they mean by 'dislodged'? Disloged in what direction, and by how far? Did the witnesses report WTC 1 steel in close proximity to the 'disloged' cars, such as to provide evidence that this 'disloging' was caused by WTC 1 debris?

This damn document raises more questions than it provides 'answers'.

This is your 'biblical authoritative report' which you accept blindly and without question as the authoritative answer to what occured at WTC 7 !!????

Well, Gee... if the above document has convinced you, your standards (and burden of proof levels) seem to be much lower than mine.

Have you been able to find any other NIST documents which have greater levels of depth than the above joke?

Man, FEMA did better !


zoktoberfest
On the previous page, frater plecticus posted a video link that pans the (pre WTC7 collapse) aftermath. It appears to show the south face! Why isn't IT the center of conversation instead of ambiguous photographs?


Schneibster makes a habit of modifying monikers. Mine is now zoktober. No handle is more applicable for our personality disordered antagonist then Scheister. The implications are rich and well deserved. Hey, if the shoe fits I say he should wear, from now on.
Guest
Documentary - the constuction of WTC.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/newyork/sfeat...pop_01_qry.html
adoucette
QUOTE (Foxx+Nov 27 2005, 07:40 PM)
This is what I see...

QUOTE
8th / 9th floor from inside, visible south wall gone with more damage to west, 2 elevator cars dislodged into elevator lobby


http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/WTC%20Part%20IIC%...pse%20Final.pdf

No references... no sources...nothing about weight of elevator cars... the above really tells me nothing at all.

The document strikes me as if I'm looking at some comic book, or a high-school science project. Where are all the references? Where are the sources for the alleged information? This is supposed to be a draft 'final' report on wtc 7? This is what we get for 16 million and 3 years work by 200+ 'professionals'? It's a JOKE ! I want my money back !!!

And you tell me you believe what you see in this sham?

I want to know by what means did they determine the above statement to be 'fact'? Who are the 'witnesses' to the above damage? How many 'witnesses' reported such an occurance? Exactly how were the elevator cars blown out of the shafts? How far were they blown out of the shafts? What exactly do they mean by 'dislodged'? Disloged in what direction, and by how far? Did the witnesses report WTC 1 steel in close proximity to the 'disloged' cars, such as to provide evidence that this 'disloging' was caused by WTC 1 debris?

This damn document raises more questions than it provides 'answers'.

This is your 'biblical authoritative report' which you accept blindly and without question as the authoritative answer to what occured at WTC 7 !!????

Well, Gee... if the above document has convinced you, your standards (and burden of proof levels) seem to be much lower than mine.

Have you been able to find any other NIST documents which have greater levels of depth than the above joke?

Man, FEMA did better !

Hmmm,

You describe your desires for the report to be more like a CRIMINAL proceeding, what with witness statements, peoples exhibit X, etc, with NIST having the burden of proof for every "allegation" they make.

This is NOT a criminal proceeding, there is no requirement for 'beyond a reasonable doubt' level of proof. Witnesses are not being "cross examined" as there is no assumption that they may be lying to protect someone.

Your demand for "what exactly.....", "who exactly...." etc is ludicrous considering the fact that the intention was not to find someone "guilty".

Since you believe the whole thing was a conspiracy, sure you would want this handled in a court of law, and if you could actually convince a DA that there is any merit to your many accusations, then maybe you would get your "day in court'. But from what I have seen, you (and other LIHOP/MIHOP believers) have yet to produce any tangible evidence that there was any conspiracy or that the towers fell by anything but a gravity driven collapse.

The fact is NIST's work IS a research project and these 200+ professionals have been pouring over the evidence they have been able to acquire and what you see is what they have been able to determine. Seems pretty impressive to me, but hey, maybe since I believe the generally accepted account of what happened that day I'm not nearly as picky as someone looking for some shred of evidence to the contrary.

By the way, I suspect when the final report comes out that the supporting documentation will also be available. Guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Arthur
Foxx
Adoucette, here is the murky L-23b photo you refer to...

User posted image

Are you trying to convince me that you can take a murky photo like L-23b above (used in the NIST report) and pick out details like "unmistakeable perimeter columns lying in Vesey St, right in front of the WTC 7 building"

BWHA !!!! hehehehehe. Your joking, Right?

Man you have imaginative eyes. You and YID would be great photo analyists at Jayhans site. So I guess you also see an 'unmistakeable military pod' in the much clearer photo below? Bwahahahahaha biggrin.gif

user posted image


adoucette
QUOTE (Foxx+Nov 27 2005, 08:20 PM)
Adoucette, here is the murky L-23b photo you refer to...

User posted image

Are you trying to convince me that you can take a murky photo like L-23b above (used in the NIST report) and pick out details like "unmistakeable perimeter columns lying in Vesey St, right in front of the WTC 7 building"

BWHA !!!! hehehehehe. Your joking, Right?


Well I stand corrected, if you can't see it IT must not be 'unmistakable'.

laugh.gif

But, in this SMOKEY picture, is NOT the possibility of extensive damage to the front of WTC 7 pretty obvious?

Or do you figure the damage stopped right at the promenade?

What about the fires, do they not seem fairly extensive?

Notice the material lying in the street, seems the FEMA circles are JUST an approximation, as this appears to be quite a bit more than just 'aluminum cladding and other light debris'

Arthur
Foxx
QUOTE
Originally posted by Adoucette
The fact is NIST's work IS a research project and these 200+ professionals have been pouring over the evidence they have been able to acquire and what you see is what they have been able to determine. Seems pretty impressive to me, but hey, maybe since I believe the generally accepted account of what happened that day I'm not nearly as picky as someone looking for some shred of evidence to the contrary.


I disagree. The NIST investigation was not meant to be a mere research project (although thats what it turned out to be... much to the disgust of many... including Professor Glenn Corbett - see his remarks below)

The House Science Committee held two hearings in 2002. In the first of these March 6, 2002 Concerns were raised regarding the timing of the BPAT deployment (almost a month after the towers fell), it's access to the site and building records, premature disposal of evidence, and FEMA's lack of regular communication with the public about the investigation.[pg 2]

http://www.house.gov/science/hearings/full...026/charter.pdf

The second meeting on May 1 2002 was held to release the BPAT report and to review plans for NIST to begin a more comprehensive investigation in view of the criticisms of FEMA [pg 2]

http://www.house.gov/science/hearings/full...026/charter.pdf

On August 21, 2002, NIST announced the appointment of a national construction safety team to investigate building and fire safety in WTC 1, 2, and 7, The project was funded through FEMA, and cost $16 million. [pg 3]

http://www.house.gov/science/hearings/full...026/charter.pdf

The NIST Investigation...

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Originally posted by Adoucette
The fact is NIST's work IS a research project and these 200+ professionals have been pouring over the evidence they have been able to acquire and what you see is what they have been able to determine. Seems pretty impressive to me, but hey, maybe since I believe the generally accepted account of what happened that day I'm not nearly as picky as someone looking for some shred of evidence to the contrary.


I disagree. The NIST investigation was not meant to be a mere research project (although thats what it turned out to be... much to the disgust of many... including Professor Glenn Corbett - see his remarks below)

The House Science Committee held two hearings in 2002. In the first of these March 6, 2002 Concerns were raised regarding the timing of the BPAT deployment (almost a month after the towers fell), it's access to the site and building records, premature disposal of evidence, and FEMA's lack of regular communication with the public about the investigation.[pg 2]

http://www.house.gov/science/hearings/full...026/charter.pdf

The second meeting on May 1 2002 was held to release the BPAT report and to review plans for NIST to begin a more comprehensive investigation in view of the criticisms of FEMA [pg 2]

http://www.house.gov/science/hearings/full...026/charter.pdf

On August 21, 2002, NIST announced the appointment of a national construction safety team to investigate building and fire safety in WTC 1, 2, and 7, The project was funded through FEMA, and cost $16 million. [pg 3]

http://www.house.gov/science/hearings/full...026/charter.pdf

The NIST Investigation...

NIST's Building and Fire Research Laboratory (BFRL) carries out research in fire science, fire safety, structural, mechanical, and environmental engineering. It is the only federal laboratory dedicated to research on building design and fire safety.

The specific objectives of the NIST investigation were to

1) Determine why and how WTC 1 and WTC 2 collapsed following the initial impacts of the aircraft.

To meet the goals, NIST assembled a team of in-house experts and outside specialists, totaling about 200 people.[pg 4]

In September, 2005 NIST released its draft Final Report of the National Construction Safety Team on the Collapse of the World Trade Center for public comment.[pg 5]


http://www.house.gov/science/hearings/full...026/charter.pdf

(They never fulfilled their #1 objective which was to show HOW the buildings collapsed)


Mr. Glenn Corbett is an Assistant Professor of Fire Science at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice and a member of NIST's National Construction Safety Team.

Testimony from Oct 26, 2005 to Committee on Science House of Representatives US Congress.


QUOTE
When I look to the future of the NCST Act, sadly I find it necessary to recommend that serious consideration be given to finding a new agency to implement the Act. I don't think that NIST is the right place for the NCST. Their non-aggressiveness, their absence of investigative instinct, and the palatable lack of interest they have shown in the Act have brought me to this conclusion. NIST is an organization of exceptional scientists and engineers, not detectives.

Short of creating an entirely new National Construction Safety Team Board, I would recommend that serious consideration be given to moving the NCST to the U.S. Chemical Safety and Hazard Investigation Board. They are a close fit: they investigate explosions and chemical disasters in and around structures. [pg 5]


http://www.house.gov/science/hearings/full...ony%20FINAL.pdf
adoucette
The point is NIST explicitly states that they found NO EVIDENCE that the buildings were demolished by explosives.

You figure the 200+ scientists are part of the conspiracy too?

HAD they found evidence of such, THEN this would have turned into a criminal investigation.

They did not, so it STAYED a research project.

So Corbett disagrees with where NCST should be.
So what?

You find anything that the govt does that SOMEONE doesn't disagree with?
Don't make them right.
Apparently he MADE his case to Congress and THEY didn't agree with him.
Does this make him wrong?
Or is it just that you can't please everybody.
Yourself included.

Arthur
Foxx
QUOTE (zoktoberfest+Nov 27 2005, 07:52 PM)
On the previous page, frater plecticus posted a video link that pans the (pre WTC7 collapse) aftermath. It appears to show the south face! Why isn't IT the center of conversation instead of ambiguous photographs?


Schneibster makes a habit of modifying monikers. Mine is now zoktober. No handle is more applicable for our personality disordered antagonist then Scheister. The implications are rich and well deserved. Hey, if the shoe fits I say he should wear, from now on.

Hi Zoctoberfest. I discussed that with frater (by PM). Personally I don't see any clear images of the south face of WTC 7 in that video either.

However I will say that the smoke pouring from the full face strikes me as a very odd occurance. It almost seems like smoke was pouring from every window on the south side, yet no visible fires that I could see in the (west?) face. Where was the incoming replacement air coming from? With that volume of air exiting the building carrying the smoke it must have been replaced from somewhere, and I don't recall any great gaping holes in the other three sides?I would think that with that much smoke pouring out of the entire south face, there would be some evidence of fire on the west side of the building. Maybe frater has a point with regard to 'smokescreens'? What I see in the video strikes me as very 'odd'.


Foxx
QUOTE
Originally posted by Adoucette
The point is NIST explicitly states that they found NO EVIDENCE that the buildings were demolished by explosives.


Well, they had to put that disclaimer in so people like you can point to it and say, "Look, NIST didn't find any evidence of bombs etc". It provides a glimmer of hope to those like you that it didn't really happen. Do you think they are unaware of the thousands of threads like these and the evidence that independant investigators keep coming up with. It is an appeal to authority to short circuit criticism.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Originally posted by Adoucette
The point is NIST explicitly states that they found NO EVIDENCE that the buildings were demolished by explosives.


Well, they had to put that disclaimer in so people like you can point to it and say, "Look, NIST didn't find any evidence of bombs etc". It provides a glimmer of hope to those like you that it didn't really happen. Do you think they are unaware of the thousands of threads like these and the evidence that independant investigators keep coming up with. It is an appeal to authority to short circuit criticism.

You figure the 200+ scientists are part of the conspiracy too?


Nope, not at all. I doubt very few have any real say in the political spin, or conclusions. Most I would guess are just government engineers doing what they are told to do. I think they would be far to compartmentalized to have any direct knowledge of the machinations of top level gov't supervisors.

QUOTE
HAD they found evidence of such, THEN this would have turned into a criminal investigation.


Malarky, If you do not look for evidence in a certain area, you certainly won't find any. Although I find it somewhat suspicious that top level administration has lied about steel recovered from WTC 7, saying that none was discovered - when the only steel which was actually recovered from # 7 bore signs of extremely curious chemical melting processes inconsistent with general fire-engineering). And now they are trying to 'bury' this evidence.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
HAD they found evidence of such, THEN this would have turned into a criminal investigation.


Malarky, If you do not look for evidence in a certain area, you certainly won't find any. Although I find it somewhat suspicious that top level administration has lied about steel recovered from WTC 7, saying that none was discovered - when the only steel which was actually recovered from # 7 bore signs of extremely curious chemical melting processes inconsistent with general fire-engineering). And now they are trying to 'bury' this evidence.

They did not, so it STAYED a research project.


Please direct me to the NIST tests performed to determine whether or not there were explosive residues in the area or on the steel. These are very specific tests. Explosives residues do not just show up by themselves unless these specific tests are performed. Show me where NIST performed these tests and found NO residue?

QUOTE
So Corbett disagrees with where NCST should be.
So what?

You find anything that the govt does that SOMEONE doesn't disagree with?
Don't make them right.
Apparently he MADE his case to Congress and THEY didn't agree with him.
Does this make him wrong?
Or is it just that you can't please everybody.
Yourself included.


What makes you say that Congress disagreed with Corbett? As far as I know they haven't yet made any determinations on whether the NCST should be transferred to the U.S. Chemical Safety and Hazard Investigation Board or any other agency. After the NIST fiasco, I personally doubt they will continue to operate as the NCST authoritative agency, but that's just my prediction. We'll see, won't we.

Well, I'm done chatting for now... Later

Schneibster
Faux, when someone in a debate attempts to intimidate the opposition, and lies (and anyone questioning whether you lie can refer to page 50, where I pointed to two prior posts in which I documented over thirty-five such lies), then it is obvious that they THEMSELVES feel that their position is weak. What is anyone else to make of that? No surprise that the most common conclusion will be that it IS weak.

Your s**t is weak, Faux. I'm not even bothering to engage you any more on the technical points; I am merely disgusted at your presence, since you rely on intimidation and lying to make points. I see no point in a technical discussion with someone who has no honor.

Wanna know if Faux is lying? See if it's posting. Nothing more need be said.
Foxx
QUOTE
Originally posted by Scheister
Remember, this force is being transmitted down a rigid column of concrete with rigid columns of steel inside it; that means that it shatters rather than yielding.


Scheister, you seem to be avoiding my question from many pages ago...

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Originally posted by Scheister
Remember, this force is being transmitted down a rigid column of concrete with rigid columns of steel inside it; that means that it shatters rather than yielding.


Scheister, you seem to be avoiding my question from many pages ago...

Tell me, Oh great wise one. If the steel columns were inside concrete columns, wouldn't that make them less susceptible to heat effects?


Why do you refuse to answer or address my question... and resort to 'insults' and false allegations to avoid answering a simple 'structural engineering' question?

It seems apparent that you enjoy doing critiques of others writings... (e.g. Hoffman & Trumpman's essays)

You use excellent sophistry in these 'critiques' - I will give you that.

Structural Engineering employs 'basic physics' to determine forces and dynamics involved with materials failures... wouldn't you agree?

To be honest - I am not an 'accredited' 'structural engineer'.

(God forbid that I should add to the 'lies' I have 'already told' on this thread). biggrin.gif

However, my field of 'expertise' does involve 'materials & structural engineering' on a daily basis, so I have some 'slight' relevant understandings of the mechanics involved regarding the topic under consideration.

I believe there has been great confusion propagated through 'official sources' regarding the structural aspects of the WTC towers.

Whether deliberate or not, this misinformation has served to delude many (including yourself with regard to the structural aspects of the WTC towers).

This misinformation must be corrected in order to understand the factual construction of the 'Towers' in order to determine whether or not it is plausible that these towers may have succumbed to a gravity driven 'collapse'.

I have attempted to 'expose' the misinformation which has been presented over the past 4 years regarding the structural design of the buildings in question through an 'essay' which I have published.

I grant that it is not a full engineering report, but nevertheless encompasses many misconceptions regarding the structural aspects of the WTC towers.

Kindly make yourself 'useful' to this thread and attempt to do an objective critique of my essay to point out any errors (or 'lies') you see in this essay.

Thanks...

http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/untitled001.html


adoucette
QUOTE (Foxx+)
Kindly make yourself 'useful' to this thread and attempt to do an objective critique of my essay to point out any errors (or 'lies') you see in this essay.


On your page about the Core Columns you ask "Where are these rectangular 12" x 36" Central Core Columns represented in any of the above figures ?"

But the pages you reference in the NIST report refer specifically to what the columns looked like at the above the 83rd floor.

The columns get smaller as they go up, and as the NIST report you have in your essay says, they transition from Box to Flange columns at the 83rd floor.

Arthur

adoucette
QUOTE
Originally posted by Adoucette
The point is NIST explicitly states that they found NO EVIDENCE that the buildings were demolished by explosives.


Well, they had to put that disclaimer in so people like you can point to it and say, "Look, NIST didn't find any evidence of bombs etc". It provides a glimmer of hope to those like you that it didn't really happen. Do you think they are unaware of the thousands of threads like these and the evidence that independant investigators keep coming up with. It is an appeal to authority to short circuit criticism.

==> Of course the other explanation is they didn't find any evidence. In fact NO ONE has come up with ANY evidence of an explosive demolition.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Originally posted by Adoucette
The point is NIST explicitly states that they found NO EVIDENCE that the buildings were demolished by explosives.


Well, they had to put that disclaimer in so people like you can point to it and say, "Look, NIST didn't find any evidence of bombs etc". It provides a glimmer of hope to those like you that it didn't really happen. Do you think they are unaware of the thousands of threads like these and the evidence that independant investigators keep coming up with. It is an appeal to authority to short circuit criticism.

==> Of course the other explanation is they didn't find any evidence. In fact NO ONE has come up with ANY evidence of an explosive demolition.

You figure the 200+ scientists are part of the conspiracy too?


Nope, not at all. I doubt very few have any real say in the political spin, or conclusions. Most I would guess are just government engineers doing what they are told to do. I think they would be far to compartmentalized to have any direct knowledge of the machinations of top level gov't supervisors.

==> BS. The various scientists HAD to write this report, top level Govt Supervisors don't have the knowledge to write this. Besides, it would have been the scientists going through the evidence that would have discovered evidence of an explosive demolition. Hard to keep THAT quiet.

QUOTE
HAD they found evidence of such, THEN this would have turned into a criminal investigation.


Malarky, If you do not look for evidence in a certain area, you certainly won't find any. Although I find it somewhat suspicious that top level administration has lied about steel recovered from WTC 7, saying that none was discovered - when the only steel which was actually recovered from # 7 bore signs of extremely curious chemical melting processes inconsistent with general fire-engineering). And now they are trying to 'bury' this evidence.

==> You have proof they didn't look?
No one LIED about anything, aren't you actually quoting from a preliminary report that simply said no Steel columns could be positively tied to WTC 7?

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
HAD they found evidence of such, THEN this would have turned into a criminal investigation.


Malarky, If you do not look for evidence in a certain area, you certainly won't find any. Although I find it somewhat suspicious that top level administration has lied about steel recovered from WTC 7, saying that none was discovered - when the only steel which was actually recovered from # 7 bore signs of extremely curious chemical melting processes inconsistent with general fire-engineering). And now they are trying to 'bury' this evidence.

==> You have proof they didn't look?
No one LIED about anything, aren't you actually quoting from a preliminary report that simply said no Steel columns could be positively tied to WTC 7?

They did not, so it STAYED a research project.


Please direct me to the NIST tests performed to determine whether or not there were explosive residues in the area or on the steel. These are very specific tests. Explosives residues do not just show up by themselves unless these specific tests are performed. Show me where NIST performed these tests and found NO residue?

==> Sorry, as you said, the report is monstrous, to find that they didn't do something I'd have to search the whole thing. Knock yourself out. Besides, there are PHYSICAL traits associated with metal deformation that are obvious indicators of an explosive demolition, in the absence of any such indications I doubt testing ALL the steel for explosive residue would have made any sense.

QUOTE
So Corbett disagrees with where NCST should be.
So what?

You find anything that the govt does that SOMEONE doesn't disagree with?
Don't make them right.
Apparently he MADE his case to Congress and THEY didn't agree with him.
Does this make him wrong?
Or is it just that you can't please everybody.
Yourself included.


What makes you say that Congress disagreed with Corbett? As far as I know they haven't yet made any determinations on whether the NCST should be transferred to the U.S. Chemical Safety and Hazard Investigation Board or any other agency. After the NIST fiasco, I personally doubt they will continue to operate as the NCST authoritative agency, but that's just my prediction. We'll see, won't we.

Well, I'm done chatting for now... Later


==> NIST fiasco???? Based on one guy's testimony? Got some OTHER evidence that their report was considered a "fiasco".

Arthur
metamars
QUOTE
The point is NIST explicitly states that they found NO EVIDENCE that the buildings were demolished by explosives.



Ha ha ha! This is a scream! And if they said that metal eating termites from the planet WooWoo ate the steel beams and columns, and then died from indigestion, you'd believe that, too!

Sometimes this forum is a RIOT !!!!


If you see any of the bozos from NIST, please point them to the following, and tell them to look again:


user posted image
Guest
QUOTE (frater plecticus+Nov 25 2005, 10:56 AM)
[QUOTE]Chemicals used for smoke generation

Zinc chloride

Zinc chloride smoke is grey-white and consist of tiny particles of zinc chloride. The most common mixture for generating these is the zinc chloride smoke mixture (HC), consisting of hexachloroethane, grained aluminium and zinc oxide. The smoke consists of zinc chloride, zinc oxychlorides, and hydrochloric acid, which absorb the moisture in the air. The smoke also contains traces of organic chlorinated compounds, phosgene, carbon monoxide, and chlorine.

Its toxicity is caused mainly by the content of strongly acidic hydrochloric acid, but also to thermal effects of reaction of zinc chloride with water. These effects cause lesions of the mucous membranes of the upper airways. Damage of the lower airways can manifest itself later as well, due to fine particles of zinc chloride and traces of phosgene. In high concentrations, the smoke can be very dangerous when inhaled. Symptoms include dyspnea, retrosternal pain, hoarseness, stridor, lachrymation, cough, expectoration, and in some cases haemoptysis. Delayed pulmonary edema, cyanosis or bronchopneumonia may develop. The smoke and the spent canisters contain suspected carcinogens.

The prognosis for the casualties depends on the degree of the pulmonary damage. All exposed individuals should be kept under observation for 8 hours. Most affected individuals recover within several days, with some symptoms persisting for up to 1-2 weeks. Severe cases can suffer of reduced pulmonary function for some months, the worst cases developing marked dyspnea and cyanosis leading to death.

Respirators are required for people coming into contact with the zinc chloride smoke.

Chlorosulphonic acid

Chlorosulphonic acid (CSA) is a heavy, strongly acidic liquid. When dispensed in air, it readily absorbs moisture and forms dense white fog of hydrochloric acid and sulfuric acid. In moderate concentrations it is highly irritating to eyes, nose, and skin.

When chlorosulphonic acid comes in contact with water, a strong exothermic reaction scatters the corrosive mixture in all durections. CSA is highly corrosive, so careful handling is required.

Low concentrations cause just prickling sensation on the skin, but high concentrations or prolonged exposure to field concentrations can cause severe irritation of the eyes, skin, and respiratory tract, and mild cough and moderate chemical dermatitis can be a result as well. Liquid CSA causes acid burns of skin and exposure of eyes can lead to severe eye damage.

Affected body parts should be washed with water and then with sodium bicarbonate solution. The burns are then treated like thermal burns. The skin burns heal readily, cornea burns can result in residual scarring.

Respirators are required for any concentrations sufficient to cause any cough, irritation of the eyes or prickling of the skin.

Titanium tetrachloride

Titanium tetrachloride (FM) is a yellow non-flammable corrosive liquid. In contact with damp air it hydrolyzes readily, resulting in a dense white smoke consisting of droplets of hydrochloric acid and particles of titanium oxychloride.

The titanium tetrachloride smoke is irritant and unpleasant to breathe.

It is dispensed from aircrafts to create vertical smoke curtains, and during World War II it was a favorite smoke generation agent on warships.

Goggles or a respirator should be worn when in contact with the smoke, full protective clothing should be worn when handling liquid FM. In direct contact with skin or eyes, liquid FM causes acid burns.

Phosphorus

Red phosphorus and white phosphorus (WP) are red or waxy yellow or white substances. White phosphorus is pyrophoric - can be handled safely when under water, but in contact with air it spontaneously ignites. It is used as an incendiary. Both types of phosphorus are used for smoke generation, mostly in artillery shells, bombs, and grenades.

For more details see White phosphorus incendiary.

White phosphorus smoke is typically very hot and may cause burns on contact. Red phosphorus is less reactive, does not ignite spontaneously, and its smoke does not cause thermal burns - for this reason it is safer to handle, but can not be used so easily as an incendiary.

Oil

Oil smoke is usually produced by smoke generators. The resulting smoke is a mist of oil droplets of controlled size.

This might account for the concentrations of certain heavy metals in the dust sampled...
Guest
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Nov 25 2005, 07:31 PM)
Hi mickeydoolittle!

Sounds like you've uncovered something really BIG there, mickey! Sounds like All USER NAMES posting in PhysorgForums are actually ONE AND THE SAME PERSON! hehehe. (How's THAT for a conspiracy theory, heh?)

Listen here, sport, I'm warning you politely, and for the last time: I don't like being told that I'm somebody else, get it? Use what little discretion your mother might have inculcated in you for a minute BEFORE you go off at the mouth. If you have something to say to ME, RealityCheck, then say it to ME, RealityCheck. Whoever Schneibster is, he ain't me any more than he is YOU, I hope. Have you got that, mate? What age ARE you?...12yrs maybe? You sound like it. Let me be.

RealityCheck.
.

Violent tendancies...I think so. He has already threatened me with a "Saturday night special"... Go home Aussie!
Guest
QUOTE (adoucette+Nov 27 2005, 08:17 PM)
You describe your desires for the report to be more like a CRIMINAL proceeding, what with witness statements, peoples exhibit X, etc, with NIST having the burden of proof for every "allegation" they make.

This is NOT a criminal proceeding, there is no requirement for 'beyond a reasonable doubt' level of proof. Witnesses are not being "cross examined" as there is no assumption that they may be lying to protect someone.

It is not CRIMINAL to fly an airplane into the WTC??? Sure seems like a crime to me, but maybe not the only one...
Guest
QUOTE (Schneibster+Nov 27 2005, 09:54 PM)
Faux, when someone in a debate attempts to intimidate the opposition, and lies (and anyone questioning whether you lie can refer to page 50, where I pointed to two prior posts in which I documented over thirty-five such lies), then it is obvious that they THEMSELVES feel that their position is weak. What is anyone else to make of that? No surprise that the most common conclusion will be that it IS weak.

Your s**t is weak, Faux. I'm not even bothering to engage you any more on the technical points; I am merely disgusted at your presence, since you rely on intimidation and lying to make points. I see no point in a technical discussion with someone who has no honor.

Wanna know if Faux is lying? See if it's posting. Nothing more need be said.

Poor prideful petulant pouty person…Pity! sad.gif
adoucette
QUOTE (Guest+Nov 28 2005, 04:27 PM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Nov 27 2005, 08:17 PM)
You describe your desires for the report to be more like a CRIMINAL proceeding, what with witness statements, peoples exhibit X, etc, with NIST having the burden of proof for every "allegation" they make.

This is NOT a criminal proceeding, there is no requirement for 'beyond a reasonable doubt' level of proof. Witnesses are not being "cross examined" as there is no assumption that they may be lying to protect someone.

It is not CRIMINAL to fly an airplane into the WTC??? Sure seems like a crime to me, but maybe not the only one...

Yeah, I suspect so.

But my point was that if they found SOMETHING ELSE besides the planes that caused the towers to collapse, THEN why they collapsed would become a separate CRIMINAL investigation.

Other than that the criminial investigation was to find out who hijacked the planes and who planned and financed it etc.

What the planes physically did to the towers would not be a relevant CRIMINAL issue.

Arthur

Schneibster
Faux, I avoid nothing; considering you have not ever answered any question posed you by me, and there are over 35 lies to be accounted for before you even begin on the technical questions, of which there are a further fifteen or twenty, I see no reason to even read what you have to say, nor do I other than to note whether you speak of or to me.

You disgust me; you lie, use sock puppets, and practice intimidation, in an on-line forum, merely to get your way. I do not attempt to deal honorably with people who have no honor; there is no point to it. Leave, person of no honor, or cleanse yourself: admit your lies, apologize for them, answer the questions, and I will consider what I will do then. No other course has honor, and no other course will obtain anything of me for you but further posts pointing out that you have used lies and intimidation to get your way. You cannot lie about me, and you cannot intimidate me, and I will not go away.
yesitdid
QUOTE (Foxx+Nov 27 2005, 08:52 AM)
Heh...

Well, look at that... Adoucette & the 'The Shyster' posting at exactly the same time... obviously no sock-puppets there... biggrin.gif

Shills...yes... (but dubious regarding the sock-puppets exercise).




HAHAHA

OMIGAWD your paranoia still can surprise me Foxx.

Same time posting as evidence of "sock puppetry". By that logic Foxx, you and I are the same person too. biggrin.gif
Schneibster
Frater, nice video. I'd be interested in discussing it, if I didn't have to look at postings by dishonorable people; did you see the flash in the middle of the building during the last shot?
Guest
QUOTE (Schneibster+Nov 28 2005, 06:02 PM)
You disgust me; you lie, use sock puppets, and practice intimidation, in an on-line forum, merely to get your way. I do not attempt to deal honorably with people who have no honor; there is no point to it. Leave, person of no honor, or cleanse yourself: admit your lies, apologize for them, answer the questions, and I will consider what I will do then. No other course has honor, and no other course will obtain anything of me for you but further posts pointing out that you have used lies and intimidation to get your way. You cannot lie about me, and you cannot intimidate me, and I will not go away.

OK, Scheister is totaly broken down and exposed for what he is. Now let's leave him alone, before he hurt's himself, and get on with the discussion...
Schneibster
The obvious lack of decency shown by use of "guest" sock puppets shows Faux' obvious disinterest in anything approaching "the truth." "The truth" is not what Faux is interested in; if it were, then it would abandon this course, or not lie in the first place, and avoid intimidation tactics. Having lied, and having used intimidation, its position is obviously untenable IN ITS OWN ESTIMATION. Having determined ITS OWN OPINION that its position is too weak to stand without the use of lying and intimidation, I merely note the fact and state that there is nothing further needed to impeach its credibility.

I have no response to "exposed as what he is" but to point out that Faux was exposed for what it is long ago, when it lied and attempted intimidation. These morally distasteful actions define its position unmistakably. I see no point in "arguing" with something that lies; no properly presented and supported argument is of any use if the opponent will not stick to facts.

If it has something to say, let it first purge itself of lying and attempted intimidation; then its statements might be worth responding to. Until then, I see no point in doing anything but pointing out that it is morally bankrupt and dishonorable.
Guest
QUOTE (Schneibster+Nov 28 2005, 07:51 PM)
The obvious lack of decency shown by use of "guest" sock puppets shows Faux' obvious disinterest in anything approaching "the truth." "The truth" is not what Faux is interested in; if it were, then it would abandon this course, or not lie in the first place, and avoid intimidation tactics. Having lied, and having used intimidation, its position is obviously untenable IN ITS OWN ESTIMATION. Having determined ITS OWN OPINION that its position is too weak to stand without the use of lying and intimidation, I merely note the fact and state that there is nothing further needed to impeach its credibility.

I have no response to "exposed as what he is" but to point out that Faux was exposed for what it is long ago, when it lied and attempted intimidation. These morally distasteful actions define its position unmistakably. I see no point in "arguing" with something that lies; no properly presented and supported argument is of any use if the opponent will not stick to facts.

If it has something to say, let it first purge itself of lying and attempted intimidation; then its statements might be worth responding to. Until then, I see no point in doing anything but pointing out that it is morally bankrupt and dishonorable.

Wrong, I'm not Foxx.

And what's with this "it" business??? It that "it" as in "it rubs the lotion on its skin, or it gets the hose again". Smacks of Hannibal Lector's buddy...going to make a costume out of old Foxx?? I know that fox' fur is nice , but that's a little extreme...
Schneibster
People have honor, people don't lie in on-line forums, and people don't resort to intimidation tactics. Anything that does is not a "who" but a "what" to me.
adoucette
QUOTE (Foxx+Oct 21 2005, 07:29 AM)

QUOTE
From Bazant-Zhou
The main purpose of the present analysis is to prove that the whole tower must have collapsed if the fire destroyed the load capacity of the majority of columns of a single floor.


Did the fires destroy the load capacity of the majority of the columns 'of a single floor' ?

NOT according to NIST.

Structural Damage

NIST tells us that out of 47 of the massive central core columns in the impact area (Floor 96 - WTC 1) ONLY 6 of these columns were either severed or heavily damaged, and an additional 6 were 'slightly damaged'. Here is how NIST characterizes 'damage levels'...
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/column_damage02.jpg

It is obvious that the load capacity of the 'slightly damaged' columns was not destroyed. That leaves us with 6 (out of 47) columns whose load-bearing capacity were 'destroyed' in the structural damage caused by the aircraft impact... appoximately 12% of the columns on that level...
user posted image
12% of the columns is NOT the 'majority' of columns on one level. So, again... the Bazant-Zhou theory cannot be true.


Just reviewing the thread.

Seems Foxx is using data out of context to support his arguments here:

He shows the damage on floor 96 only to make his case.

According to the FINAL NIST report.

The plane hit at AN ANGLE, damaging columns on MULTIPLE FLOORS.

But it DOESN'T really matter which floor the columns were severed on, they are still useless to support the top of the building.

Thus NIST also shows the CUMULATIVE DAMAGE from floor 93 to 96:

35 exterior columns were severed on ONE SIDE of the tower.

There are only 59 columns on a side, so ~60% of the lateral support on one side was gone.

As to the central support, it was 6 main columns severed, 3 severely damaged, 6 moderately damaged, 4 were slightly damaged.

So 19 of the 47 columns were damaged, 9 of them were gone or essentially useless (19% vs Foxx's 12%), another 6 were compromised beyond 'slightly' (31% total vs Foxx's 12%).

Significantly, most of the damage was to the same side of the building that the exterior columns were severed on.

So lets see now, after the plane hits ~ 60% of one side of the exterior columns on one side are gone and 19% of the main load bearing columns are gone.

So, yes the towers remain standing.

But conveniently left out of the analysis is that the insulation was blown off of 43 of the 47 columns and the trusses that supported 60,000 sq ft of floor space.

The loss of insulation is ultimately what would prove fatal.

Significantly the major fire was on the side away from impact and so where as the impact wiped out the support on one side, the fire in combination with the uninsulated support members on the other side ultimately caused the local collapse.

Arthur



Schneibster
QUOTE (newguy+)
Schneibster:  Assuming that I'm one of the aforementioned "sock puppets"...
Why you would assume this is beyond me; did you in fact reveal personal information about anyone on this thread? Or did you in fact lie? Considering what you quoted, I have to assume so, and I have to point out that if it in fact was done without the person whose info it was' consent, or if it was a lie knowingly and willingly told, then it was a despicable act.

Ever hear the term, "borrowing trouble?"
Schneibster
QUOTE (zoktoberfest+)
Schneibster makes a habit of modifying monikers. Mine is now zoktober.
It was not my intent to mock you, nor to show disrespect, nor would I consider it such for you to call me "Schneib," capitalized or not. It is merely a shortening of the name, to ease typing.

If you truly took offense, then please accept my apologies. You will demonstrate your sincerity or lack thereof based on your response to this, so I suggest you consider that response very carefully indeed.
newguy
QUOTE (Schneibster+Nov 28 2005, 09:40 PM)
QUOTE (newguy+)
Schneibster:  Assuming that I'm one of the aforementioned "sock puppets"...
Why you would assume this is beyond me; did you in fact reveal personal information about anyone on this thread? Or did you in fact lie? Considering what you quoted, I have to assume so, and I have to point out that if it in fact was done without the person whose info it was' consent, or if it was a lie knowingly and willingly told, then it was a despicable act.

Ever hear the term, "borrowing trouble?"

Schneibster: I did mention that adoucette lives in the USA(nothing too revealing there) and that I had mailed him some videos once and I also mentioned that apparently RealityCheck lives in Australia(nothing too revealing there either). I don't know if you consider that "personal info" or not? In either case, I'm sure that they are not the same person. I've been debating the two of them almost daily since late August. As much as I disagree with the two of them on a whole host of topics, I am personally fully convinced that neither one of them would ever post under another username. They have both repeatedly shown themselves to be above "reproach" in that aspect. Disagree with them both yourself, if you'd like. They are not the same person. That's the only point that I was ever trying to make. By the way, I got so caught up in that part of the conversation that I don't even know which side of this debate you're on. I'll have to go back and read more when I have some time...I'm swamped on the Creation/Evolution forum. Gotta go.
Schneibster
QUOTE (newguy+)
I did mention that adoucette lives in the USA(nothing too revealing there) and that I had mailed him some videos once and I also mentioned that apparently RealityCheck lives in Australia(nothing too revealing there either).  I don't know if you consider that "personal info" or not?
The incident I referred to was considerably before that, and since neither of them makes any particular bones about it, I see no reason to criticize you for it.

When I spoke of "borrowing trouble," what I was referring to was the fact that you were highly critical of me based on statements I made, and based on the statements you quoted, I had to conclude that you felt they had referred to you in some manner. I'm not in any way clear what you meant by this, and judging from your latest post, I'm getting the impression you're not either.

Since it doesn't seem to be an issue, why don't we just drop it? I'd rather actually discuss the collapses than engage in political BS in the first places, so the more of these I can clear up, the sooner we can get back to the original material of the thread. Which is the basic physics of the collapse.
yesitdid
[quote]frater, I'm not sure how your above posting fits in with or is relevant to the alleged south face center damage hole claimed by NIST? Please explain.[/quote]

I don't see that the video is relevent either. The damage obvious in the pictures in the NIST report is located to the right of he area of the south face that is visible in any of that video. The video also cannot show the damage to the SW corner. Despite Foxx's efforts to the contrary , damage is obvious in the two photos of the lower portion of the south wall jus to the east of the pedestrian walkway.




[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Yesitdid
Amazing, simply amazing. You accuse me of using a straw man argument's by utilizing the fact that you failed to mention one word yet you dismiss or twist Boyle's statement twice because of the omission of a word.[/quote]


Foxx replies:
I am neither dismissing nor twisting Boyles statement. As he does not mention where exactly on the south face of WTC 7, then it is presumptuous to add words to his statement which fits your contention.

You most ceratinly are adding to Boyle's statement when you ascribe his observations of damage to the SW corner. IF his statement is unclear about meaning damage to the south face of #7 because he does not specify it then it is just as ambiguous concerning damage to the SW corner. It is therefore presumptuous to add words to his statement which fits your contention.

NIST states that more than one observer recounts damage to the face of #7 and, as pointed out, elevator cars in the center of the south portion of the building were ejected from their shafts which also lends credence to there being damage in that area.


From NIST WTC 7 report:

After WTC 1 collapsed:
• Heavy debris (exterior panels from WTC 1) was seen on Vesey Street and the WTC 7
promenade structure at the third floor level
• Southwest corner damage extended over Floors 8 to 18
• Damage was observed on the south face that starts at the roof level and severed the spandrels
between exterior columns near the southwest corner for at least 5 to 10 floors. However, the
extent and details of this damage have not yet been discerned, as smoke is present.
• Damage to the south face was described by a number of individuals. While the accounts are
mostly consistent, there are some conflicting descriptions:
− middle one-fourth to one-third width of the south face was gouged out from Floor 10 to
the ground
− large debris hole near center of the south face around Floor 14
− debris damage across one-fourth width of the south face, starting several floors above the
atrium (extended from the ground to 5th floor), noted that the atrium glass was still intact
− from inside the building at the 8th or 9th Floor elevator lobby, where two elevator cars
were ejected from their shafts and landed in the hallway north of the elevator shaft, the
visible portion of the south wall was gone with more light visible from the west side
possibly indicating damage extending to the west


[QUOTE] yesitdid posts:
First you complained that Greenwich and Vesey do not intersect when it is obvious that Boyle was referring to his going to Greenwich and then Vesey...[/quote]

Foxx replies:
That may be so, but it is irrelevant. Greenwich really has nothing to do with anything except maybe where he was before he arrived on Vesey.

Then why did you complain about it when first you commented on Boyle's statement? Seems you only wanted to find any way to discredit Boyle's statement.


[QUOTE] posted by yesitdid:
...and again when he says that he saw a large hole in the south but not the center of the south face of WTC.[/quote]


I am not dismissing the fact that he claims he saw a hole in the south side, but neither should one be prepared to 'add in words' that he did not state to support a position which is unsupported in any other way... not to mention the fact that you continue to ignore the alternative supporting evidence that other firefighters also reported a '20 story hole' in the south face but were more specific than Boyle and did add the qualifier that such hole was at the southwest corner. It is not proper logic to completely dismiss at least 2 other firefighters statements which speak of a 20 story hole, ( and place the location af that hole at the southwest corner), and then turn around and take a third firefighters statement (who also speaks of a 20 story hole with fires at various levels, yet is not specific as to its exact location on the face), and arbitrarily decide (because it fits with your contention)that he must have been talking about another hole (having the same characteristics described by the other firefighters) but being in a different location that that described by the others. That is invalid deduction. Just as you put words into my mouth, you are attempting to put words into Boyles mouth which he DID NOT say.

Please illustrate where I discounted or dismissed the witness accounts of a hole at the SW corner. Why you would state that I am saying such a thing escapes me.

Why do you feel it is not possible that there were two areas of such damage on the south wall of WTC 7?


[QUOTE] posted by yesitdid
You ignore completely that he has come around #7 from the east side putting him in a position in which his view of the center of that face would be much better than of the far corner. You complain that I twisted your words and then immediately repeat your twisting of Boyle's words![/quote]


I'm not ignoring the fact that he was on the east corner looking across the south face... however, just because that puts him in a location where he would be closer to the center of the south face than the far corner; is no evidence at all that the hole he saw was IN the center. He is looking across the south face at an extreme oblique angle which would distort his perspective. He sees a hole in the south face, but simply because he is closer to the mid point of the building as opposed to the opposite corner is once again NO evidence that the hole he described MUST have been closer to his position. He is looking across the full south face. Given his position and his oblique viewing angle, the smoke debris and confusion, I doubt whether he could tell from his vantage point where on the south face the hole was. Even IF he could, he DID NOT state that there were two holes, nor did he state that the one hole was at the midpoint of the building face. It seems to me that you are investing huge credibilty into a statement (which you must admit that you have 'added' words to), while on the other hand completely dismiss huge numbers of firefighters and others who spoke of explosions heard and brisant flashes seen at the towers prior to their collapse. This is sheer hypocrisy. Why you adamantly insist upon your interpretation of ONE firefighters statement on this one issue (because it supports your contention in that case), and yet blighthly turn around and dismiss dozens of other firefighter statements (when it doesn't support your contention) is blatant evidence of your use of sophistry and hypocrisy in your debating technique.


I fail to understand how one could mistake the location of damage along the face of a building as being closer to one's position or at the far side of the building. However if what you state is true then it is just as likely that he is describing damage to the south face as it is to the SW corner. Yet because it supports your contention that there was no major damage to the south central face of #7 you ascribe Boyle's statement to damage that you cannot refute. If there were no pictures of damage to the SW corner you would be claiming no major damage there either.

[QUOTE] posted by yesitdid
You complain that I am not a photo expert and then cannot determine what the above photo is showing.


Foxx replies:
I can determine what 'I see' in the walkway photo, however it seems that what I see and what you see are 'different'. I am not claiming to be a photo analysis expert. However what I see is my opinion and what you see is your opinion. Apart from a photo-expert analysis (and possibly photo enhancement) there is no 'factual evidence' which can be readily deduced from that photo. The area in question is in dark shadow and from what I see is not clear enough for me to verify what you allege to see there. Even granting for the sake of arguement that there are no perspective issues which need be taken into account, the alleged hole and columns you claim to see there are too close to the walkway which is at the extreme south east corner of the building to represent a hole 'alleged' to be in the center of the south face of the building. I think this is obvious if you look again at the FEMA debris map and note the position of the walkway, and compare that to the NIST-alleged damage schematic.

We certainly disagree on the location of thewalkway then. It is closer to the east end of the building but is not at the extreme east(ie actually at the corner). I have no problem seeing that the lower part of the building, along the sidewalk is continuous under and past the walkway in that picture. You might need new glasses foxx.


[QUOTE] posted by yesitdid
Directly under the "2001" in the copyright banner in the photo there are unmistakable damaged structural elements of some sort.[/quote]


Foxx replies:
'Unmistakeable' to you, I suppose. I disagree.

Pretty obviously not a decoration. Pretty obviously has to be part of WTC 7's interior.


[QUOTE[ posted by yesitdid
The wall under the walkway continues to the right, past the walkway and it is obvious(no degree in photographic sciences required) then, that the structure above and to the right of the walkway is part of WTC 7. All of this requires no more photographic expertise to see than it does to notice the extensive damage to the SW corner in photos of that area.


Foxx replies:
From the 'fuzzy' photo, I myself can not really determine what the structure which looks like a low wall is. I agree that it appears to extend beyond the position of the walkway, but the perspective from which the camera view is taken can lead to all kinds of misinterpretations of actual placements of things in the photo. What exactly is that which appears to be a low wall? Are you say that is the face of WTC 7? The photo is definately not clear enough to make that assertion from my view. Has the walkway collapsed on an angle towards the center of the building, and away from the corner? I don't know?... but I'm certainly not going to base any theory from what I can determine from some smoky unclear photo which I have no other photos to judge perspectives on. If you are comfortable making those determinations, perhaps you can convince others, but I'm not impressed with your analysis.

I reiterate my advice regarding the new glasses Foxx. Unless this pic is not actually of WTC 7 then it is obvious that the lower part of the south wall of WTC 7 is what I described as a wall. I am not impressed by your attempts at obfuscation.


[QUOTE] posted by yesitdid:
You have agreed that there is a good deal of damage at the SW corner of the WTC 7. If the FEMA diagram of neat concentric circles of the extent of debris is as sacrosanct as you claim then what caused the damage to the SW corner of WTC 7? After all , according to you the FEMA illustration means no large debris landed north of the north face of WTC 6(across Vesey Street from WTC 7).


Foxx replies:
I will admit that you have a valid point here. It may indicate that that southwest corner damage was created by falling perimeter columns (which FEMA has NOT marked on their debris map), however that still does not mean that there must have been another hole in the center of the building.

In fact NIST refers to the damaged area in the center of WTC 7 as Possible Region of Impact
Damage by WTC1 Debris
in figure 23-c. I point out the wording and the use of ,"possible".
newguy
QUOTE (Schneibster+Nov 28 2005, 10:38 PM)
QUOTE (newguy+)
I did mention that adoucette lives in the USA(nothing too revealing there) and that I had mailed him some videos once and I also mentioned that apparently RealityCheck lives in Australia(nothing too revealing there either).  I don't know if you consider that "personal info" or not?
The incident I referred to was considerably before that, and since neither of them makes any particular bones about it, I see no reason to criticize you for it.

When I spoke of "borrowing trouble," what I was referring to was the fact that you were highly critical of me based on statements I made, and based on the statements you quoted, I had to conclude that you felt they had referred to you in some manner. I'm not in any way clear what you meant by this, and judging from your latest post, I'm getting the impression you're not either.

Since it doesn't seem to be an issue, why don't we just drop it? I'd rather actually discuss the collapses than engage in political BS in the first places, so the more of these I can clear up, the sooner we can get back to the original material of the thread. Which is the basic physics of the collapse.

Schneibster: Consider it "dropped". Sorry for the apparent misread on my part. One of your "sock puppet" comments came shortly after I had posted, so I incorrectly assumed(You know what happens when you assume don't you? You make an "@ss" out of "u" and "me" - Felix Unger on the Odd Couple) that you were referring to me. Sorry 'bout that. Debate on.
Schneibster
adoucette, I have had to do a great deal of research to substantiate it, but it appears that you are correct, and the core of the WTC was in fact made of steel and gypsum drywall. This considerably changes my estimation of the sources of the concrete we see in the pictures; the only concrete used in the construction was the concrete in the floor pads. So there is nothing in the core but steel columns and open space; I have to ask, however, what the floors of the elevator lobbies were made from. My impression is that there were separate concrete floors poured there too, but this is nothing but a conjecture. The fact that there were horizontal trusses connecting the vertical columns beneath those floors, whatever they were made of, is documented fact; and they could not have been horizontally diagonally braced, because that would have prevented putting elevator shafts between them. This means that their horizontal strength would have been limited to the strength of the joints between the vertical core columns and the horizontal braces between those columns.

The use of the term, "Vierendeel truss," to describe the design, refers to the fact that rigid beams, the perimeter columns, were connected perpendicularly by horizontal spandrels, which were welded to the perimeter columns; the absence of diagonal reinforcement is the primary characteristic of the Vierendeel truss design. An important point about this design is that to remain rigid, it must have rigid connections; in other words, the flexure at the perpendicular joints must be limited, or the trusses will become unstable and collapse. The resistance of this design to lateral loading (i.e. horizontal loads imposed by wind) is not on the face exposed to the wind, but in the sides parallel to it; in other words, when the wind pushes at the face of the building, the sides that are parallel to the wind resist deformation at the joints between the spandrels and the perimeter columns.

This means that the force of the wind attempting to buckle the building comes on the sides parallel to the direction of the force, not on the core, and not on the face the wind is blowing against or the face opposite that one. Thus, the core can be more lightly built, since it only has to resist the vertical force of gravity. The face perpendicular to the wind only needs to be prevented from buckling inward, and that force can be distributed along the entire height of the core by the horizontal trusses under the floors, just as the sides parallel to the direction of the wind distribute the buckling forces across every joint in their entire height and prevent the bulk of this force from being placed on the core. Rigidity in the floor joints to either the perimeter columns or the core columns is not necessary, and would in fact place more of the force resisting buckling on the core rather than on the parallel sides, defeating the design goal of reducing the lateral stress on the core and imperilling the building, since the core was only designed to take the direct wind pressure, not the additional buckling component; and even some of that pressure would have been relieved by the spandrels across the perpendicular face attempting to compress the spandrels across the parallel faces, as they would have to do to move the perpendicular face against the floors and apply lateral force to the core.

Furthermore, part of the design would have included the idea of the perimeter columns not supporting all of their own weight; this is clear from the existence of the "hat truss" at the top of the building, which transferred some of the weight (vertical force) of the columns onto the core columns, allowing the perimeter columns to be lighter, as long as they could support strong enough joints to preserve the Vierendeel truss' resistance to horizontal forces, since they didn't entirely have to support their own weight.

So the only things the core columns would have had to break in order to buckle inward were the horizontal trusses connecting them to one another and whatever flooring existed inside the "hole" in the main floor pads at each story. And in between floors, they would be free to buckle inward or outward, since they were not supported by any other structure (we'll ignore drywall in the context of concrete and steel; a moment's experiment with a hammer or even your bare fist will convince you that drywall might as well be air in this context).

So now, pending comment from someone who has good structural engineering knowledge, I think we can understand the distribution of the forces in the normal (undamaged) building:
a. The perimeter columns and spandrels form a Vierendeel truss that resists deformation because of the rigid attachments between the perimeter columns and the spandrels, thus resisting forces that run along the spandrels.
b. Forces that are perpendicular to both elements of the Vierendeel truss, in other words pressing inward or outward, are distributed between the ends of the spandrels and the floor diaphragms, and this prevents buckling inward or outward.
c. The perimeter columns and spandrels are assisted in holding up their own weight by distribution of some of that weight to the core columns via the hat truss at the top of the building.
d. The core columns hold up their own weight, the vertical weight of the floors, and some of the weight of the perimeter column/spandrel Vierendeel truss system.
e. The perimeter column/spandrel Vierendeel truss system prevents lateral loads from having too much influence on the needed core column sizes, reducing their size and therefore weight to only that required to support the vertical load. It is in turn reduced in size and weight itself because it is partly supported by the hat truss and therefore by the core columns.
f. This entire design maximizes the available usable space within the building, both by eliminating the regular columns that are necessary all over the floor in a traditional design, and by eliminating the need for diagonal trusses which would obstruct open areas.
g. There are certain weaknesses to this design:
i. The attachments between the spandrels and the perimeter columns; however, there are so many such attachments that the force is so distributed that no one joint takes more than a very small fraction of it.
ii. The hat truss. If the hat truss fails, the perimeter columns will not be able to hold up their own weight.
iii. The internal rigidity of the core columns to prevent them from buckling horizontally. This is helped by the existence of the horizontal trusses connecting them presumably at some or all floors, and perhaps by the flooring (depending on what it was), but without solid concrete between the columns between floors, nothing prevents them from buckling inward; not only that, but the trusses between them cannot prevent them from buckling outward, and the tensile strength of steel is considerably less than its compression yield strength, so the natural direction it will fail is outward, since inward is constrained.

Now, we begin to see what happened when the plane hit the building. First, severed perimeter columns' weight below the point they were severed was no longer supported directly by the hat truss; instead, this weight (at least that beyond what the perimeter columns themselves could bear) would be distributed outward to unsevered columns, and thence upward to the hat truss and downward across the other perimeter columns, and some would remain on the bottoms of the severed columns. This would change the loading on the hat truss, and also change the loading on the core columns, and finally change the loading on the other perimeter columns. The additional force would not be a direct function of the percentage of the columns cut, either; the more columns cut, the more weight would have to be redistributed. Remember also that the entire weight of the severed perimeter columns would come on the hat truss, instead of it partly being on the lower portions of those columns. So we have an increase in the total amount the core columns have to support both from the redistribution of forces from below the severed points, and from above them as well. Obviously, the lower on the building the perimeter columns are severed, the more extra force there will be above the severed columns, and the less there will be redistributed through the spandrels.

Severing perimeter columns does not affect the lateral strength of the building perpendicular to the severed columns and their spandrels; it affects the lateral strength of the building parallel to the plane they make; this is obvious if you examine the way the forces are distributed in the undamaged building. In other words, if the north face is damaged, a north or south wind isn't the problem; it's the east or west wind that is the problem, since the north and south faces resist such winds.

Severing core columns does not affect the lateral strength either; it only affects the vertical strength. However, we must also note that in the event that all of the core columns fail on one floor, the entire perimeter column structure added to the hat truss and the upper segment of the core and all the floors between the point at which the core fails and the top of the building can no longer support its own weight. It is not designed to; it is designed to be held up by the hat truss, allowing it to be much lighter than it otherwise would have to be! This point is essential: if the core fails, the perimeter columns cannot hold up both their own weight and that of the core and all floors between the failure and the top.

Now, one other point is salient: the antenna mounting on 1 WTC. We know from sources already presented that the antenna was mounted on the hat truss, which formed its only support.

OK, now how does this affect the dynamics of the two collapses?

In the collapse of 2 WTC, we note first that the top tilted, and second that the collapse occurred much sooner after the impact of the plane, and third that the damage was much lower down, and fourth that the damage involved corners of both the core and perimeter column structures.

The fact that the damage was lower down was the primary cause of the shorter time to collapse; this meant that the force on the core was much greater, due to the extra length of perimeter column and spandrel loaded on the core (because of the severing of the perimeter columns at the impact site). In addition, the corner core columns were larger, and thus took more of the force, than the other core columns, and one of the four would have been more heavily damaged or even destroyed in the off-center 2 WTC impact, as opposed to the more centered 1 WTC impact. And finally, we see that in this failure, the side facing the impact and side away from the impact are not the direction the top leans when the tower collapses; instead, the tower leans toward the side of the tower that the impact was off-centered toward. This is confirmation of the fact that the lateral stress created by the failure of the core columns on that side could not be supported by those same core columns, and when the top started to lean, it caused complete failure of the core, which allowed the top of the building to begin to fall; once this had happened, the remaining core had to support the force of the entire structure above that point falling on it, at some 3 or 4m/s, which resulted in a load scores or even hundreds of times beyond its design criteria. The results are obvious, as is the fact that the most damaged side collapsed. Once the top was falling, the complete collapse was inevitable, because it so severely overloaded the remaining structure; and as each floor hit the next, both the one above and the one below would be destroyed, and the remaining weight of both would descend on the next floor below that one.

In the 1 WTC collapse, much more time was required for the extra weight of the damaged perimeter column section to overcome even the reduced compression yield strength of the core columns. The core failed first, as we can tell from the evidence of the antenna. Once the core had failed, the hat truss went with it; and all the weight of the floors, plus their own weight, came on the perimeter columns; and this was well beyond their designed capacity, so they buckled, and of course they did so most dramatically at the site of the impact, where they were the most overloaded. Once they had done so, the floors were free to fall, and when they did, they smashed all the building below them, accumulating both mass and velocity as they went, just as in the 2 WTC collapse.

The evidence that 2 WTC collapsed on its own is present in the fact it failed first, and the fact that it failed according to just what one would expect after thinking the design constraints over, and the facts that its initial failure was asymmetric, and the impact was asymmetric, and the failure occurred first where the impact would have done the most damage. Had this been a "controlled demolition," the demolition explosives would have had to have been at the impact site; this is impossible, since no such demolition explosives could have survived the crash, nor could they have been placed in the middle of a fire.

The evidence that 1 WTC collapsed on its own is more subtle, and requires more careful examination. What we see in this case is that the core went first, as the evidence of the antenna shows. We cannot see where the core failed, because we cannot see inside the building. However, we can extract some clues from the antenna, and from the behavior of the fire. First of all, statements that the radio tower begins to fall first are inaccurate; I invite you to view this, which claims that the tower falls in frame 6 but the facade does not. In fact, marking the positions of the top edge of the facade and the two light-colored protrusions on the right side of the tower, I was able to determine that the appearance of the antenna falling first is an illusion created by the smoke; since the smoke doesn't fall, one's eye assumes the facade isn't either, but actually, it is, if you measure it. Furthermore, the tower rotates as it falls, and we can (by describing its arc) determine the end of the lever arm it is rotating on. If we do this, we find that the end of that lever arm is at about the same floor that we see show the first signs of collapse, that is, the floor where the billowing clouds of dust and/or smoke are first seen. Note that you have to go beyond the last frame from the above link; the antenna is still falling straight down at that link's "frame 12." Get a good player and go frame-by-frame until you see the antenna start to rotate, then measure the lever arm for yourself. Note that its endpoint has to be moving downward; this will help you get it right. Look here for the full video in MPEG format, and here for the source for both links; it's the first video listed in the North Tower section.

What we see is in fact not symmetric at all; it only appears that way. The evidence of the radio tower is that its symmetry began to decay about the time that three or four floors had collapsed, and the process was well underway; however, by that time, the masses of the floors and the perimeter columns were moving sufficiently fast that nothing was going to stop them, and since they formed the majority of the mass, a small asymmetry in the core collapse, particularly above the place where the ongoing collapse was happening, as it clearly must have been, wasn't going to deflect them enough to matter. Remember also that the only thing that could have tipped the antenna over was existing core underneath the core section the antenna rested on. Thus we see that the core had failed only on one floor, but that failure was enough to allow the top of the building to start downward, and once it was moving nothing could stand in its way.

Had 1 WTC been demolished, there would have needed to be explosives on the floor where the failure occurred; but the evidence of the antenna and the video says that that floor was one where fire occurred previously, which again has the explosives in the middle of the fire, or being set by people in the middle of the fire. Again, this is impossible. We also know from the antenna that the core failed at only one point; otherwise, what did the antenna and the core under it hit that caused it to begin to rotate?

Another interesting detail from that first video shows that a section of perimeter columns on the right doesn't fall immediately; this proves that the floors were disconnected from it on that side for at least several floors. Since the floors were bolted to the perimeter columns, it therefore follows that either the bolts or the flanges they were attached to had failed and the floor slabs had fallen without taking that perimeter column section with them. If those bolts or flanges failed to stop the falling floors, what else could? And why would anyone doubt that the floors could simply be stripped off the insides of the perimeter columns? The evidence is right there in front of you: the core supported the floors, not the perimeter.

Let's see where this analysis takes us.
metamars
A High School Physics Calculation that sheds light on the FEMA Fairy Tale


From http://reopen911.org/heller.htm (from an article by David Heller)


QUOTE
"Jim Hoffman, a professional scientist published in several peer-reviewed scientific journals, took a long look at all of this. He calculated that even if the structure itself offered no resistance, that is to say, even if the 110 floors of each tower were hovering in mid-air, the "pancake" theory would still have taken a minimum of 15.5 seconds to reach the ground. So, even if the building essentially didn't exist, if it provided no resistance at all to the collapse, just the floors hitting each other and causing each other to decelerate would've taken 15.5 seconds to reach the ground. "


I'm pretty sure that I've never seen this calculation. However, anybody with high school physics can carry out this calculation, though they might want to do it on a computer, as I doubt there's any mathematical shortcuts.

Of course, if somebody can find this calculation on Hoffman's web site, please post a link, and save yourself or others the trouble of doing this calculation.

To conceptualize what Heller is talking about: imagine cutting each tower into slices 1 floor thick, from the collapse zone on down. (Above the collapse zone, there is no need to do this.) Further, imagine shrinking the height of each floor down to an infinitesimally small value. Pretend that a set of giant claws are holding each floor in place, at it's proper height, but that each claw releases it's floor a split second before the mass falling on top of it hits it. Thus, there is no upward force being considered due to columns, diagonal supports, etc. AT ALL.

So basically, the algorithm is as follows (Assuming collapse initiation at floor 73):

Take the mass of floors 73 through 111 (call this m(Sum(39)), and calculate the downward momentum after falling through a single floor. You certainly can easily calculate the downward velocity at impact and the time interval required for this first impact to occur. Call them v0 and t0

At height = 72 floors, by conservation of momentum, the total downward momentum a split second before impact:

p(m(Sum(39))) ( p is standard nomenclature for momentum )

must equal the total downward momentum after impact:

p(m(Sum(39))) + p(m(Floor 72))

But this is just

p(m(Sum(40))) (i.e, the momentum of the top 40 floors)

(Note that one of the assumptions of this calculation is that the masses "stick together", i.e., they do not bounce. The collision is inelastic. This is favorable to the FEMA Fairy Tale, plus makes the math easy :-) )

Since you know p(m(Sum(40))), and since you know m(Sum(40)), you very easily can determine the new downward velocity of the combined mass right after this first impact (of course, it will be less than the downward velocity of m(Sum(39)) just before impact)

Using these values, you basically iterate the process sketched out above.

You end up with a set of time intervals, t0, t1, t2, ... t71 such that when you add them up, you get the total time of collapse.

Well, ain't it amazing, but apparently when Hoffman did this calculation, it just so happens that you get almost exactly what was observed. Thus, the statement that "the buildings collapsed almost as though the frames didn't exist" is correct.


Note that BYU Physics Professor Steven E. Jones , in Why Indeed Did the WTC Buildings Collapse? has stated that,

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
"Jim Hoffman, a professional scientist published in several peer-reviewed scientific journals, took a long look at all of this. He calculated that even if the structure itself offered no resistance, that is to say, even if the 110 floors of each tower were hovering in mid-air, the "pancake" theory would still have taken a minimum of 15.5 seconds to reach the ground. So, even if the building essentially didn't exist, if it provided no resistance at all to the collapse, just the floors hitting each other and causing each other to decelerate would've taken 15.5 seconds to reach the ground. "


I'm pretty sure that I've never seen this calculation. However, anybody with high school physics can carry out this calculation, though they might want to do it on a computer, as I doubt there's any mathematical shortcuts.

Of course, if somebody can find this calculation on Hoffman's web site, please post a link, and save yourself or others the trouble of doing this calculation.

To conceptualize what Heller is talking about: imagine cutting each tower into slices 1 floor thick, from the collapse zone on down. (Above the collapse zone, there is no need to do this.) Further, imagine shrinking the height of each floor down to an infinitesimally small value. Pretend that a set of giant claws are holding each floor in place, at it's proper height, but that each claw releases it's floor a split second before the mass falling on top of it hits it. Thus, there is no upward force being considered due to columns, diagonal supports, etc. AT ALL.

So basically, the algorithm is as follows (Assuming collapse initiation at floor 73):

Take the mass of floors 73 through 111 (call this m(Sum(39)), and calculate the downward momentum after falling through a single floor. You certainly can easily calculate the downward velocity at impact and the time interval required for this first impact to occur. Call them v0 and t0

At height = 72 floors, by conservation of momentum, the total downward momentum a split second before impact:

p(m(Sum(39))) ( p is standard nomenclature for momentum )

must equal the total downward momentum after impact:

p(m(Sum(39))) + p(m(Floor 72))

But this is just

p(m(Sum(40))) (i.e, the momentum of the top 40 floors)

(Note that one of the assumptions of this calculation is that the masses "stick together", i.e., they do not bounce. The collision is inelastic. This is favorable to the FEMA Fairy Tale, plus makes the math easy :-) )

Since you know p(m(Sum(40))), and since you know m(Sum(40)), you very easily can determine the new downward velocity of the combined mass right after this first impact (of course, it will be less than the downward velocity of m(Sum(39)) just before impact)

Using these values, you basically iterate the process sketched out above.

You end up with a set of time intervals, t0, t1, t2, ... t71 such that when you add them up, you get the total time of collapse.

Well, ain't it amazing, but apparently when Hoffman did this calculation, it just so happens that you get almost exactly what was observed. Thus, the statement that "the buildings collapsed almost as though the frames didn't exist" is correct.


Note that BYU Physics Professor Steven E. Jones , in Why Indeed Did the WTC Buildings Collapse? has stated that,


The rapid fall of the Towers and WTC7 has been analyzed by several engineers/scientists (http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/proofs/speed.html; Griffin, 2004, chapter 2).  The roof of WTC 7 (students and I are observing the southwest corner) falls to earth in less than 6.6 seconds, while an object dropped from the roof would hit the ground in 6.0 seconds.  This follows from t = (2H/g)1/2.  Likewise, the Towers fall very rapidly to the ground, with the upper part falling nearly as rapidly as ejected debris which provide free-fall references (http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/proofs/speed.html; Griffin, 2004, chapter 2).  Where is the delay that must be expected due to conservation of momentum – one of the foundational Laws of Physics?  That is, as upper-falling floors strike lower floors – and intact steel support columns – the fall must be significantly impeded by the impacted mass.  If the central support columns remained standing, then the effective resistive mass would be less, but this is not the case – somehow the enormous support columns failed/disintegrated along with the falling floor pans.

         

How do the upper floors fall so quickly, then, and still conserve momentum in the collapsing buildings?  The contradiction is ignored by FEMA, NIST and 9-11 Commission reports where conservation of momentum and the fall times were not analyzed.  The paradox is easily resolved by the explosive demolition hypothesis, whereby explosives quickly remove lower-floor material including steel support columns and allow near free-fall-speed collapses (Harris, 2000).


(Emphasis mine)


This is MAJOR (assuming that the calculation actually gives results as indicated). Thus, activists who are spreading the word to technical communities should not only print out the Jones, Trumpman, and Hoffman papers, but also this calculation (preferably with the computer algorithm or at least pseudocode) so that physicists and engineers can easily verify it. It is MAJOR because, I believe, it gives the lie to the FEMA Fairy Tale in a way that should be of interest to engineers, not just physicists

What I don't understand is why didn't Jones make this calculation explicit? Have I missed a reference.?
Schneibster
newguy, sorry for the misunderstanding (meaning I regret you misunderstood, and acknowledge your statement about why). No, it was not my intent to indicate you in particular. I'm glad we could clear that up.

My position is, succinctly stated, that complicity by the government well before the fact is far more subtle and far more difficult to prove than demolition theories, and that in the face of the available evidence, demolition against buildings was not only unnecessary but constituted an avoidable risk on the part of the plotters. I have an opinion that the whole demolition idea may have been either started or encouraged by someone who was involved as a smokescreen to prevent deeper and more difficult questions (the discrepancies in FAA and NORAD testimony, the fact that Osama bin Laden was a CIA "asset," the "exercises" on 9/11, etc.), but I have no evidence to back it up and don't insist upon it; people are perfectly capable of coming up with wacky ideas on their own, and without a good physics and mechanics background, often incapable of falsifying such ideas on their own. Without at least some scientific or judicial background, they may not even know that falsifying their ideas is something they should be trying to do!

So basically I reject the idea of demolitions; I see no reason to assume that any such were needed to bring down any of the buildings, and good reasons to believe that in fact any such action would have been viewed as counter-productive. Previously (well before I began responding on this thread), I was of the opinion that 7 WTC might have been demolished using the collapses of 1 and 2 WTC as "cover," but the testimentary evidence of massive structural damage to the south face showed that this was mistaken, no matter how good the motive was. The "bulge" visible above the SW corner damage was sufficient to convince me that the building was severely damaged by the collapse of 1 WTC. It's clearly visible in more than one photograph of that area.

It's unfortunate that no good picture of the south face after the collapse of the North Tower is available. Frater's video of 7 WTC gives only a hint, and only a very small one: the "sparkle" (or flame, or whatever) visible near the end of the section that shows the south face. I haven't seen anything better.
Schneibster
metamars, I already linked pictures that showed that in fact, perimeter column sections were twenty floors ahead of the collapse long before either reached the ground. Is there some reason you keep ignoring this clear evidence that you don't know what you're talking about?
RealityCheck
QUOTE (Guest+Nov 28 2005, 03:45 PM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Nov 25 2005, 07:31 PM)
Hi mickeydoolittle!

Sounds like you've uncovered something really BIG there, mickey! Sounds like All USER NAMES posting in PhysorgForums are actually ONE AND THE SAME PERSON! hehehe. (How's THAT for a conspiracy theory, heh?)

Listen here, sport, I'm warning you politely, and for the last time: I don't like being told that I'm somebody else, get it? Use what little discretion your mother might have inculcated in you for a minute BEFORE you go off at the mouth. If you have something to say to ME, RealityCheck, then say it to ME, RealityCheck. Whoever Schneibster is, he ain't me any more than he is YOU, I hope. Have you got that, mate? What age ARE you?...12yrs maybe? You sound like it. Let me be.

RealityCheck.
.

Violent tendancies...I think so. He has already threatened me with a "Saturday night special"... Go home Aussie!


.
Hi Guest.

Everyone will have noted the difference between good advice and a 'threat' in MY relevant post alluding to 'saturday night special'; as follows....

QUOTE

Hello Guest.

Apology accepted.

And if I WERE your Mom, you would be grounded for a week and told to stop annoying people...cos you might one day annoy someone who won't be so polite or 'virtual' about 'correcting' your behaviour/attitude (especially if you live in the US; where every crazy seems to have a 'saturday night special' shooting apparatus that can do you some 'serious correction'). Think on it.

RealityCheck.


.
So you see, Guest, I was alluding to the LOVE AFFAIR WITH GUNS you AMERICANS have. In that context, it is the prudent thing to do to be polite and courteous to ALL your countrymen; lest they turn out to BE crazy and repay your discourtesy/impolite attitude with a somewhat crazed attitude of their own as to what constitutes an 'appropriate' response....which, in the case of some of your crazy countrymen seems, more often than not, to be: 'Shoot'. period. Being in Australia, I haven't yet been 'educated' by you yanks to the point that I would do likewise. You see, we seem to have some sort of aversion to 'packing a gun' and 'shooting first and asking questions afterwards'. So in fact, were you HERE in Aussieland when you offended someone, the likelihood is GREATER, than it would be OVER THERE IN U.S., that you would survive long enough to learn the value of courtesy/politeness AS A SURVIVAL STRATEGY (for when you returned to your own country). Sorry I can't stay to chat further. I hope that clarification has served to set your mind at rest that, unlike many of your countrymen, I am neither violent nor armed nor crazy nor one of your countrymen; for if I were, you probably would not now be in any condition to be posting such libel. Good luck, Guest.

RealityCheck.
.PS...And for your information: I AM home in Aussieland. Well away from the stupidity, ignorance and madness incubator YOU call home. RC.
.
metamars
QUOTE
metamars, I already linked pictures that showed that in fact, perimeter column sections were twenty floors ahead of the collapse long before either reached the ground. Is there some reason you keep ignoring this clear evidence that you don't know what you're talking about?


I could be wrong, but I think I posted the picture that shows this clearly before you did, and explained it's significance. That photo shows clearly that the actual collapse could not have been as quick as free fall time. On this point, you and I agree.

It's widely accepted (even by yourself) that the actual collapse time is between 12 and 16 seconds.

What the calculation I sketched above shows (using linear momentum considerations) is that, as stated, a collapse calculation that essentially completely subtracts out the forces due to supporting structure (i.e., the steel frame) will still take 15.5 seconds, which is just shy of the upper bound of the actual collapse time.

Unlike the "compare with free fall" comparison that began this thread, the difference between these two times is so close that even engineers will (I believe) immediately see that something is VERY wrong. I just double checked the original link (to the multi-media web page: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/andrew.johnso...f%20Towers.swf), and, sure enough, the formula
s = ut + 1/2at^^2 is there, but no mention of linear momentum. Not to mention the fact that it quotes incorrect collapse times....

An interesting exercize to do is to compute how many columns you need to add, in the scenario sketched out above, to slow down that theoretical collapse by another .5 seconds or so, so that you get exactly the upper limit of what was actually observed.

If the number is, say, 1,2, or 3, ( which is my guess ) , then it becomes painfully obvious that either there was a demolition or somebody stole the columns when nobody was looking. Osama bin Grinchen, anybody? tongue.gif

Foxx
QUOTE
Originally posted by Metamars
If the number is, say, 1,2, or 3, ( which is my guess ) , then it becomes painfully obvious that either there was a demolition or somebody stole the columns when nobody was looking. Osama bin Grinchen, anybody?


Exactly correct, metamars. This is what 'these people' are somehow missing. Scheister has been emphasizing the fact that the towers did NOT fall at free-fall speeds since he first started posting in this thread (something that most of us already know and agree).

Those of us who point to the fact that they fell at 'near' free-fall speeds (as evidence of controlled demolition) recognize that in order to do so, there must be next-to-no resistance provided by the lower portion of the fire-unaffected (still sound) column structure below.

Also, I think that there may be a misunderstanding from our 'opponents' that in a controlled demolition the building does fall at the speed of free-fall (or so close to it the difference is imperceptible).

As I have challenged before... many, many pages back... if they believe that such is the case then take a video of a known controlled demolition, time it, and quantify the difference between that CD and actual (unimpeded free-fall). Of course, this challenge was ignored because intuitively, (I think) people realize that the slower rate of fall of a CD will be very close to the slowed rate of the WTC speed of fall.

I further think that some have the mistaken belief that in a CD ALL columns are 'cut' by charges sequentially at such a rate that the upper floor does not impact the lower floor e.g. - the columns are cut before the upper floor reaches the next lower floor so that basically each floor IS facing no resistance from impacting the next lower floor so that in essence each floor IS falling at 'free-fall' speeds. This is WRONG thinking.

In a conventional controlled implosion demolition only the majority of the main support columns are cut. They don't cut each and every column (just as each and every column was NOT cut in the WTC buildings).

This means that although the main structural support columns are removed... (stolen by the Grinch)... still other columns are left, and provide resistance (which slows the collapse to NEAR free-fall rates, nevertheless those secondary support structures still have to be compromised by the dynamics of the above falling mass.

ONLY by cutting the majority of the main support columns thoughout the structure down to the ground can EVEN a controlled demolition collapse symmetrically right down to the ground (otherwise the collapse will either slow down, stop, or fall off asymmetrically). This happens not infrequently if the charges are not properly timed and positioned.

The media plays up controlled demolitions, as if today each and every one is perfectly pulled off and this is definately NOT the case.

I was just reading about this a couple of weeks ago at 'Implosion World', where the principles there are (shall we say) 'hopping mad' about a National Geographic special wherein the producers were touting CDI as the worlds best & most experienced, [never experiencing any failures] CD 'experts'.

... (didn't National Geographic recently do a straw-man attack against the 9/11 Truth Movement?



QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Originally posted by Metamars
If the number is, say, 1,2, or 3, ( which is my guess ) , then it becomes painfully obvious that either there was a demolition or somebody stole the columns when nobody was looking. Osama bin Grinchen, anybody?


Exactly correct, metamars. This is what 'these people' are somehow missing. Scheister has been emphasizing the fact that the towers did NOT fall at free-fall speeds since he first started posting in this thread (something that most of us already know and agree).

Those of us who point to the fact that they fell at 'near' free-fall speeds (as evidence of controlled demolition) recognize that in order to do so, there must be next-to-no resistance provided by the lower portion of the fire-unaffected (still sound) column structure below.

Also, I think that there may be a misunderstanding from our 'opponents' that in a controlled demolition the building does fall at the speed of free-fall (or so close to it the difference is imperceptible).

As I have challenged before... many, many pages back... if they believe that such is the case then take a video of a known controlled demolition, time it, and quantify the difference between that CD and actual (unimpeded free-fall). Of course, this challenge was ignored because intuitively, (I think) people realize that the slower rate of fall of a CD will be very close to the slowed rate of the WTC speed of fall.

I further think that some have the mistaken belief that in a CD ALL columns are 'cut' by charges sequentially at such a rate that the upper floor does not impact the lower floor e.g. - the columns are cut before the upper floor reaches the next lower floor so that basically each floor IS facing no resistance from impacting the next lower floor so that in essence each floor IS falling at 'free-fall' speeds. This is WRONG thinking.

In a conventional controlled implosion demolition only the majority of the main support columns are cut. They don't cut each and every column (just as each and every column was NOT cut in the WTC buildings).

This means that although the main structural support columns are removed... (stolen by the Grinch)... still other columns are left, and provide resistance (which slows the collapse to NEAR free-fall rates, nevertheless those secondary support structures still have to be compromised by the dynamics of the above falling mass.

ONLY by cutting the majority of the main support columns thoughout the structure down to the ground can EVEN a controlled demolition collapse symmetrically right down to the ground (otherwise the collapse will either slow down, stop, or fall off asymmetrically). This happens not infrequently if the charges are not properly timed and positioned.

The media plays up controlled demolitions, as if today each and every one is perfectly pulled off and this is definately NOT the case.

I was just reading about this a couple of weeks ago at 'Implosion World', where the principles there are (shall we say) 'hopping mad' about a National Geographic special wherein the producers were touting CDI as the worlds best & most experienced, [never experiencing any failures] CD 'experts'.

... (didn't National Geographic recently do a straw-man attack against the 9/11 Truth Movement?



ANOTHER BLACK EYE FOR NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC

an article by ImplosionWorld

April 6, 2005

A detailed review of the recent National Geographic Channel implosion program titled Demolition Dynasty has revealed more than 30 significant accuracy errors that appear to call into question the research techniques used at the network (click here to read the complete implosionworld.com review).

Implosionworld.com conducted a four-month review of the program after receiving numerous inquiries, complaints and requests for clarification from various industry veterans, media organizations and members of the general public.

Demolition Dynasty was the first of a three-part series originally broadcast nationally in the United States in December 2004, and has received additional heavy airplay over the past four months. The US debut was followed by multiple airings in the UK through the winter of 2005. The two companion programs are titled World Record Implosions and Exploding Las Vegas (both re-work the same general material).

In researching the 60-minute program, Implosionworld.com discovered scores of statements, made via voice-over narrative and on-screen interviews, that were either completely unfounded or inaccurate to a degree that they misled the viewer.


Examples include a wide variety of assertions involving current world records, contractor performance and safety records, individual contributions to the industry, the current state of the industry and the origins of explosive demolition in general. In every case investigated, statements appearing in the program were contradicted by substantial existing evidence, and appeared to be skewed in a manner that favored the producer's interests.

Implosionworld.com contacted National Geographic Senior Researcher, Genevieve Sexton, for comment during the course of the review. Ms. Sexton responded in part, "The goal of our program was to present a history of CDI's (Controlled Demolition Inc. / Loizeaux Co.) work. We understand the implosion industry is a competitive one, and we hope to represent it in an accurate and unbiased manner." While offering other general comments, Ms. Sexton stopped short of commenting on National Geographic's research protocol or responding to any of the specific inaccuracies raised by Implosionworld.com.

National Demolition Association Executive Director, Michael Taylor, and researchers at Guiness World Records were also contacted for comment during the course of the review, as they were also profiled making inaccurate assertions. Mr. Taylor responded in part, "I was speaking in general terms based mostly on what I've read and seen on TV, and it is certainly possible that I was wrong on some of the facts. My job is to promote the industry, and my heartfelt apologies go out to any NDA members who feels harmed or injured by my comments." Guinness World Records, who National Geographic implied has supplied independent recognition or verification of the many inaccurate World Record claims appearing in the program, has yet to respond to repeated requests for clarification.

In a curious repetition of history, Demolition Dynasty borrowed its name from another National Geographic documentary of the same name originally released in 1988. The original version was also roundly criticized by various demolition contractors at the time for its highly inaccurate portrayal of the industry, and to this day many veteran blasters point to the program as the beginning of a deceitful, manipulative era of documentary filmmaking responsible for perpetuating many of the false "implosion" stereotypes still held today.



CLICK HERE TO READ THE COMPLETE IMPLOSIONWORLD.COM REVIEW OF DEMOLITION DYNASTY



Bolds & emphasis in the above quote are mine.


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