QUOTE (London to SF+Oct 13 2005, 09:48 PM)
Cheney was frogmarched to safety, and he wasnt even making a public appearance.
Yet, the CiC was allowed to sit there, saying nothing, DOING nothing while America was under attack...
Now wait a minute, whose actions are you saying was strange? Bush's or the SS? You are changing your story here......... Listen to yourself. Go re read what you typed. Or do you just like to attack people without even listening to what was said?
Yet, the CiC was allowed to sit there, saying nothing, DOING nothing while America was under attack...
Now wait a minute, whose actions are you saying was strange? Bush's or the SS? You are changing your story here......... Listen to yourself. Go re read what you typed. Or do you just like to attack people without even listening to what was said?
I did that in a hurry. Let me rephrase myself before I get accused of attack. The question was asked if others saw it wrong that Bush sat in a classroom looking bemused after he was told the nation was under attack. I said no. My reasoning that I didn't post was that it was up to the secret service to move him if they thought him at risk. It isn't like someone made the call to the Pres "Sir, the nation has been attacked, we need to move you to a different location" then Bush says "No, I think I would rather sit here with the children instead". Two people quoted me, then made comments that the SS would move Bush if he was at risk and he didn't have a choice. Do I find it odd that Bush sat in a classroom with children looking bemused? No. Do I find it odd that the secret service didn't see the need to move him to a more protected area? Yes. Do I find it odd that two people responded with comments about what the SS did wrong to my comments of what Bush did (or didn't do)? Yes. I don't think either paid attention to the question or any of their answers.
Please, read what people type.
Please, read what people type.
QUOTE ("THEY"+Oct 13 2005, 10:50 PM)
QUOTE (London to SF+Oct 13 2005, 09:48 PM)
Cheney was frogmarched to safety, and he wasnt even making a public appearance.
Yet, the CiC was allowed to sit there, saying nothing, DOING nothing while America was under attack...
Now wait a minute, whose actions are you saying was strange? Bush's or the SS? You are changing your story here......... Listen to yourself. Go re read what you typed. Or do you just like to attack people without even listening to what was said?
They
Have no idea what you are referring to when you suggest that I attacked you?
However, I did go back and re-read what I had written, and again, I fail to see how you think I am changing my story...
...my story is perfectly straight (or as straight as it can be).
To answer you directly, I think all the actions were strange.
The SS ferreting Cheney away to safety, while leaving the president sitting in a school classroom...
Bush himself sitting in that classroom knowing that "America was under attack"...
Does that not strike you as strange?
Surely protocol suggests removing the president to safety as well as his "right hand man"?
Yet he just sat there...and sat there...and sat there...and grinned...and sat there some more...
Is this strange? Is this unnacceptable? Is this worrying?
There are just way too many anomalies to dismiss this whole debate.
Oh yeah, as for "the burning passport in the rubble", what next...
..."and Dorothy clicked her heels 3 times and woke up back in Kansas"?
THE SCARIEST THING OF ALL THOUGH IS;
IF WE STILL SUPPORT THE GOVT. AFTER THEY KNOWINGLY FABRICATED THE WMD CLAIMS TO JUSTIFY THE INVASION OF IRAQ...
AND WE BLINDLY REFUSE TO ACCEPT THAT MAYBE, JUST MAYBE THE GOVT., LIED TO US OVER 9/11...
WHAT WILL BE NEXT?
THEY WILL HAVE CARTE BLANCHE TO DO ANYTHING...
I thought I'd chip in with a few words on this attempt at disinfo posted by new member Schneibster, obviously brought in to prop up the faltering a_ht after he blew his cover.
We all knew that Andrew was referring to when the firefighters got to where the fires WERE, as can be heard in the Firefighter's Tapes, released in early November 2002 to the New York Times, as reported by the BBC and CBS News and the NY Daily News, among many others. Transcripts can be found at memoryhole.com and AUDIO at firehouse.com, again among many others.
Yet, the CiC was allowed to sit there, saying nothing, DOING nothing while America was under attack...
Now wait a minute, whose actions are you saying was strange? Bush's or the SS? You are changing your story here......... Listen to yourself. Go re read what you typed. Or do you just like to attack people without even listening to what was said?
They
Have no idea what you are referring to when you suggest that I attacked you?
However, I did go back and re-read what I had written, and again, I fail to see how you think I am changing my story...
...my story is perfectly straight (or as straight as it can be).
To answer you directly, I think all the actions were strange.
The SS ferreting Cheney away to safety, while leaving the president sitting in a school classroom...
Bush himself sitting in that classroom knowing that "America was under attack"...
Does that not strike you as strange?
Surely protocol suggests removing the president to safety as well as his "right hand man"?
Yet he just sat there...and sat there...and sat there...and grinned...and sat there some more...
Is this strange? Is this unnacceptable? Is this worrying?
There are just way too many anomalies to dismiss this whole debate.
Oh yeah, as for "the burning passport in the rubble", what next...
..."and Dorothy clicked her heels 3 times and woke up back in Kansas"?
THE SCARIEST THING OF ALL THOUGH IS;
IF WE STILL SUPPORT THE GOVT. AFTER THEY KNOWINGLY FABRICATED THE WMD CLAIMS TO JUSTIFY THE INVASION OF IRAQ...
AND WE BLINDLY REFUSE TO ACCEPT THAT MAYBE, JUST MAYBE THE GOVT., LIED TO US OVER 9/11...
WHAT WILL BE NEXT?
THEY WILL HAVE CARTE BLANCHE TO DO ANYTHING...
THEY
Too late, sorry!
I guess we were both typing at the same time...(with me just being slow)
I see what you are saying now, and agree with you when you say that surely the SS wouldve protected Bush, like they protected Cheney.
But answer me this, as someone who is not attacking Bush, do you not find it strange that he just sat there, while under his own admission he knew that (and again I quote this horrible line) "America is under attack"??
Too late, sorry!
I guess we were both typing at the same time...(with me just being slow)
I see what you are saying now, and agree with you when you say that surely the SS wouldve protected Bush, like they protected Cheney.
But answer me this, as someone who is not attacking Bush, do you not find it strange that he just sat there, while under his own admission he knew that (and again I quote this horrible line) "America is under attack"??
Hello everyone.
Regarding 'temperatures reached' in the towers, and the reason for collapse of the towers. Has anyone considered the amount of jet fuel pouring down the 'severed/opened' vertical lift/sevice wells running down the length of the building? Since the people would have been using the 'fire-door segmented' STAIR WELL, the heat seeping into the stair well would have been much less than the heat produced by the 'blowtorch' conditions which would have been created by the 'air-current updrafts' in the 'sheared/opened lift/service wells (and the firemen could NOT get to certain areas of the fire BECAUSE it was too hot/unsafe to do so; which is why they were not 'incinerated' until the collapse proper trapped them in the flames). And as for the steel; imagine what such 'blowtorch' conditions would have done to weaken 'upright/diagonal/horizontal' structural beams beyond their ability to withstand BOTH the side-to-side 'oscillation loadings' produced by the impacts AND the ever-present 'gravity loading' stresses (and ONLY CRITICAL 'HOT SPOTS' WOULD NEED TO FAIL to weaken the WHOLE frame). MOREOVER, since the 'fittings/connectors' which fixed the heavy bulk of the building to the steel frame would have been the first to 'fail', can you imagine how an accelerating mass of building material and fittings would have stressed the beams even MORE, such that they needed to be NOWHERE NEAR melting point to 'allow' the 'innards to 'collapse' unimpeded, and for the beams themselves to be 'pulled along' and 'de-riveted/de-welded' each section of beam from the other. And as far as 'a conspiracy to demolish' is concerned, has anyone thought of the obvious fact that such 'underhand' demolition would have been just as effective immediately AFTER all people were evacuated, WITHOUT the need for all that 'conspiracy/haste' imputed to whomever was supposed to be behind the 'conspiracy to demolish'?
Just some questions that needed to be asked in the interests of fair play and reasoned discussion. I'll leave you all to it, then!
Best regards from: RealityCheck.
.
Regarding 'temperatures reached' in the towers, and the reason for collapse of the towers. Has anyone considered the amount of jet fuel pouring down the 'severed/opened' vertical lift/sevice wells running down the length of the building? Since the people would have been using the 'fire-door segmented' STAIR WELL, the heat seeping into the stair well would have been much less than the heat produced by the 'blowtorch' conditions which would have been created by the 'air-current updrafts' in the 'sheared/opened lift/service wells (and the firemen could NOT get to certain areas of the fire BECAUSE it was too hot/unsafe to do so; which is why they were not 'incinerated' until the collapse proper trapped them in the flames). And as for the steel; imagine what such 'blowtorch' conditions would have done to weaken 'upright/diagonal/horizontal' structural beams beyond their ability to withstand BOTH the side-to-side 'oscillation loadings' produced by the impacts AND the ever-present 'gravity loading' stresses (and ONLY CRITICAL 'HOT SPOTS' WOULD NEED TO FAIL to weaken the WHOLE frame). MOREOVER, since the 'fittings/connectors' which fixed the heavy bulk of the building to the steel frame would have been the first to 'fail', can you imagine how an accelerating mass of building material and fittings would have stressed the beams even MORE, such that they needed to be NOWHERE NEAR melting point to 'allow' the 'innards to 'collapse' unimpeded, and for the beams themselves to be 'pulled along' and 'de-riveted/de-welded' each section of beam from the other. And as far as 'a conspiracy to demolish' is concerned, has anyone thought of the obvious fact that such 'underhand' demolition would have been just as effective immediately AFTER all people were evacuated, WITHOUT the need for all that 'conspiracy/haste' imputed to whomever was supposed to be behind the 'conspiracy to demolish'?
Just some questions that needed to be asked in the interests of fair play and reasoned discussion. I'll leave you all to it, then!
Best regards from: RealityCheck.
.
Very interesting thread. Glad to see that not everyone is duped by our corrupt government over here in the United States. If you'd like to view a quick clip of George W. Bush lying through his teeth about the first plane crash on September 11th, then please visit the link below:
www.whatreallyhappened.com/bushlie.html
Sorry you can't click directly on this link...I'm not sure how to post them on this forum. If you go to that link, just scroll down the page a little and click on the RealVideo of Bush saying he SAW the first plane hit the WTC on September 11th BEFORE he went into the classroom in Florida. Aside from the fact that there was no TV in the school, contrary to his claim, the video footage of the first plane hitting the towers wasn't even available until the following day. Let me know what you think. Thanks.
www.whatreallyhappened.com/bushlie.html
Sorry you can't click directly on this link...I'm not sure how to post them on this forum. If you go to that link, just scroll down the page a little and click on the RealVideo of Bush saying he SAW the first plane hit the WTC on September 11th BEFORE he went into the classroom in Florida. Aside from the fact that there was no TV in the school, contrary to his claim, the video footage of the first plane hitting the towers wasn't even available until the following day. Let me know what you think. Thanks.
QUOTE (newguy+Oct 14 2005, 02:04 AM)
Very interesting thread. Glad to see that not everyone is duped by our corrupt government over here in the United States. If you'd like to view a quick clip of George W. Bush lying through his teeth about the first plane crash on September 11th, then please visit the link below:
www.whatreallyhappened.com/bushlie.html
Sorry you can't click directly on this link...I'm not sure how to post them on this forum. If you go to that link, just scroll down the page a little and click on the RealVideo of Bush saying he SAW the first plane hit the WTC on September 11th BEFORE he went into the classroom in Florida. Aside from the fact that there was no TV in the school, contrary to his claim, the video footage of the first plane hitting the towers wasn't even available until the following day. Let me know what you think. Thanks.
Hey newguy
Yes, I already posted that page, and the link to the video.
Not heard anyone else comment on it though, or how strange it was that he just sat there...
...or what happened with WTC7?? (yes, we know the official b/s story, but thats all it is, b/s)
www.whatreallyhappened.com/bushlie.html
Sorry you can't click directly on this link...I'm not sure how to post them on this forum. If you go to that link, just scroll down the page a little and click on the RealVideo of Bush saying he SAW the first plane hit the WTC on September 11th BEFORE he went into the classroom in Florida. Aside from the fact that there was no TV in the school, contrary to his claim, the video footage of the first plane hitting the towers wasn't even available until the following day. Let me know what you think. Thanks.
Hey newguy
Yes, I already posted that page, and the link to the video.
Not heard anyone else comment on it though, or how strange it was that he just sat there...
...or what happened with WTC7?? (yes, we know the official b/s story, but thats all it is, b/s)
London to SF: Sorry 'bout that. I didn't notice that you had already quoted the text of this BIG LIE, but at least now people can view it for themselves and not just dismiss it as hearsay. I'm done for the night. I'll check back tomorrow. Until then...
QUOTE (newguy+Oct 14 2005, 02:44 AM)
London to SF: Sorry 'bout that. I didn't notice that you had already quoted the text of this BIG LIE, but at least now people can view it for themselves and not just dismiss it as hearsay. I'm done for the night. I'll check back tomorrow. Until then...
No worries newguy, its good to see that the site/page we both quoted is "out there" (meaning people are aware of it).
No worries newguy, its good to see that the site/page we both quoted is "out there" (meaning people are aware of it).
QUOTE (Schneibster+Oct 13 2005, 05:09 AM)
QUOTE
c) The firemen said the fires were not very bad when they got there.
What fires where were "not very bad?" And just exactly what does "not very bad" mean, anyway, in terms of a fire that is consuming an ENTIRE FLOOR OF A BUILDING? And, of course, the FIRST FIREMEN ON THE SCENE (hey, you said "when they got there") have MAGIC X-RAY EYES AND CAN SEE UP A THOUSAND FEET AND THROUGH CONCRETE AND STEEL TO KNOW JUST HOW BAD THE FIRES ARE, right? Oh, and by the way, can I see some LINKS to what these firemen said? Can you maybe provide MULTIPLE SOURCES in case someone is lying or just twisting the truth a little bit so they can sell more subscriptions or whatnot? That would be NICE. I thought I'd chip in with a few words on this attempt at disinfo posted by new member Schneibster, obviously brought in to prop up the faltering a_ht after he blew his cover.
We all knew that Andrew was referring to when the firefighters got to where the fires WERE, as can be heard in the Firefighter's Tapes, released in early November 2002 to the New York Times, as reported by the BBC and CBS News and the NY Daily News, among many others. Transcripts can be found at memoryhole.com and AUDIO at firehouse.com, again among many others.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| c) The firemen said the fires were not very bad when they got there. |
What fires where were "not very bad?" And just exactly what does "not very bad" mean, anyway, in terms of a fire that is consuming an ENTIRE FLOOR OF A BUILDING? And, of course, the FIRST FIREMEN ON THE SCENE (hey, you said "when they got there") have MAGIC X-RAY EYES AND CAN SEE UP A THOUSAND FEET AND THROUGH CONCRETE AND STEEL TO KNOW JUST HOW BAD THE FIRES ARE, right? Oh, and by the way, can I see some LINKS to what these firemen said? Can you maybe provide MULTIPLE SOURCES in case someone is lying or just twisting the truth a little bit so they can sell more subscriptions or whatnot? That would be NICE.
I thought I'd chip in with a few words on this attempt at disinfo posted by new member Schneibster, obviously brought in to prop up the faltering a_ht after he blew his cover.
We all knew that Andrew was referring to when the firefighters got to where the fires WERE, as can be heard in the Firefighter's Tapes, released in early November 2002 to the New York Times, as reported by the BBC and CBS News and the NY Daily News, among many others. Transcripts can be found at memoryhole.com and AUDIO at firehouse.com, again among many others.
Battalion Seven Chief: "Battalion Seven to Battalion Seven Alpha."
"Freddie, come on over. Freddie, come on over by us."
Battalion Seven Chief: "Battalion Seven ... Ladder 15, we've got two isolated pockets of fire. We should be able to knock it down with two lines. Radio that, 78th floor numerous 10-45 Code Ones."
The whole "MAGIC X-RAY EYES AND CAN SEE UP A THOUSAND FEET AND THROUGH CONCRETE AND STEEL TO KNOW JUST HOW BAD THE FIRES ARE" is an obvious attempt at the old "make them look so stupid no one will want to believe them" trick...
Give it up man, the people of the world are smarter than you neocon toadies believe, and a lot of them are waking up to the constant lies.
I thought I'd chip in with a few words on this attempt at disinfo posted by new member Schneibster, obviously brought in to prop up the faltering a_ht after he blew his cover.
Piper
Spot on, well said.
WTC7 anyone???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
I thought I'd chip in with a few words on this attempt at disinfo posted by new member Schneibster, obviously brought in to prop up the faltering a_ht after he blew his cover.
We all knew that Andrew was referring to when the firefighters got to where the fires WERE, as can be heard in the Firefighter's Tapes, released in early November 2002 to the New York Times, as reported by the BBC and CBS News and the NY Daily News, among many others. Transcripts can be found at memoryhole.com and AUDIO at firehouse.com, again among many others.
Battalion Seven Chief: "Battalion Seven to Battalion Seven Alpha."
"Freddie, come on over. Freddie, come on over by us."
Battalion Seven Chief: "Battalion Seven ... Ladder 15, we've got two isolated pockets of fire. We should be able to knock it down with two lines. Radio that, 78th floor numerous 10-45 Code Ones."
The whole "MAGIC X-RAY EYES AND CAN SEE UP A THOUSAND FEET AND THROUGH CONCRETE AND STEEL TO KNOW JUST HOW BAD THE FIRES ARE" is an obvious attempt at the old "make them look so stupid no one will want to believe them" trick...
Give it up man, the people of the world are smarter than you neocon toadies believe, and a lot of them are waking up to the constant lies.
QUOTE (Piper+Oct 14 2005, 03:23 AM)
I thought I'd chip in with a few words on this attempt at disinfo posted by new member Schneibster, obviously brought in to prop up the faltering a_ht after he blew his cover.
Piper
Spot on, well said.
WTC7 anyone???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Hello everyone. I'd just like to present the good people of this message board some questions and comments concerning 9/11. They're not directed to any specific person here. So whoever would like to address them please do:
What could the statements from the people below possibly be describing other than a controlled demolition?
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/de...html?page=5&c=y
The article quotes NIST's lead investigator, Shyam Sunder about the collapse of WTC Building 7. In the article Sunder claims:
If Sunder's claim was true, wouldn't the missing 25 percent of Building 7's south face affect the direction of the building's collapse? Causing it to collapse toward the missing south face instead of straight down?
What could the statements from the people below possibly be describing other than a controlled demolition?
- From GeorgeWashington.blogspot.com:
Emergency personnel tapes released in August contain the following statements concerning "flashes" in the world trade centers prior to their collapse:
The captain of emergency medical services said "somewhere around the middle of the world trade center there was this orange and red flash coming out ... initially it was just one flash then this flash just kept popping all the way around the building and that building had started to explode ... and with each popping sound it was initially an orange and then red flash came out of the building and then it would just go all around the building on both sides ... as far as could see these popping sounds and the explosions were getting bigger going both up and down and then all around the building"
Similiarly, the Assistant Fire Commissioner stated I thought . . . before . . . No. 2 came down, that I saw low-level flashes. . . . I . . . saw a flash flash flash . . . [at] the lower level of the building. You know like when they . . . blow up a building. . . ?” . In the same statement, the Assistant Commissioner recounts how a lieutenant firefighter he spoke with independently verified the flashes.
[SNIP]
link to entire article:
http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2005/...moking-gun.html
"When we got to about 50 feet from the South Tower, we heard the most eerie sound that you would ever hear. A high-pitched noise and a popping noise made everyone stop. We all looked up. At the point, it all let go. The way I see it, it had to be the rivets. The building let go. There was an explosion and the whole top leaned toward us and started coming down. I stood there for a second in total awe, and then said, "What the F###?" I honestly thought it was Hollywood."
- Eye-witness Jeff Birnbaum, president of Broadway Electrical Supply Co., New York
http://september11.ceenews.com/ar/electric...trical_supplys/
"...and then all of a sudden it started like... it sounded like gunfire... you know, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang and then all of a sudden three big explosions."
9-11 witness / survivor
Video: http://terrorize.dk/911/witnesses/911.wtc.witness.2.wmv
"I was about five blocks away when I heard explosions... three thuds and turned around to see the building that we just got out of... tip over and fall in on itself."
9-11 witness / survivor
Video: http://terrorize.dk/911/witnesses/911.wtc.witness.1.wmv
The Chief of Safety of the Fire Department of New York told me that... he thinks that there were actually devices that were planted in the building. One of the secondary devices he thinks that took place after the initial impact was, he thinks, may have been on the plane that crashed into one of the towers. The second device, he thinks, he speculates, was probably planted in the building... so that's what we have been told by...erm...Albert Turi who is the Chief of Safety for the New York City Fire Department, he told me that just moments ago.
-NBC Reporter Pat Dawson, 9-11-01
Video: http://terrorize.dk/911/witnesses/911.wtc.reporter.1.wmv
"We were trying to get some of the people out, but then there was secondary explosions and then subsequent collapses."
Member of the FDNY
Video: http://www.911blimp.net/videos/FDNY-explosions.mov
"There were explosions going off everywhere. I was convinced that there were bombs planted all over the place and someone was sitting at a control panel pushing detonator buttons. I was afraid to go down Church Street toward Broadway, but I had to do it. I ended up on Vesey Street. There was another explosion. And another. I didn't know where to run."
Source: "Teresa Veliz: A Prayer to Die Quickly and Painlessly," in September 11: An Oral History by Dean E. Murphy (Doubleday, 2002), pp 9-15. http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/veliz-bombs.htm

Video: http://images.indymedia.org/imc/ontario/wt...ition_waves.mpg


Video: http://terrorize.dk/911/wtc2dem12/911.wtc....south.below.mpg

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/c...ses/squibs.html
- "The searchers found several clues, he said, but would not elaborate. Last week, a passport belonging to one of the hijackers was found in the vicinity of Vesey Street, near the World Trade Center. 'It was a significant piece of evidence for us,' Mawn said." [CNN]
http://edition.cnn.com/2001/US/09/17/inv.i...tion.terrorism/
"In New York, several blocks from the ruins of the World Trade Center, a passport authorities said belonged to one of the hijackers was discovered a few days ago, according to city Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik." [CNN]
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/gen....a.under.attack/
"Rescue workers sifting through the tons of rubble earlier discovered a passport belonging to one of the suspected hijackers a few blocks from where the World Trade Center's twin towers once stood." [BBC]
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1546927.stm
"ABCNEWS sources identify another hijacker as Satan Suqami, a Saudi national on American Airlines Flight 11, whose passport was recovered in the rubble." [ABC]
http://911research.wtc7.net/cache/disinfo/...s/abc_hunt.html
Crash-Proof Passport
http://911research.wtc7.net/disinfo/deceptions/passport.html

7 World Trade Center - History:
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/WTC/7WTC.htm


Building 7 collapsed straight down into its own footprint in about 6-7 seconds. It was located between the two buildings at the top of this photo. The building with the large hole in the center of it is WTC Building 6. It was located between Building 7 and the North Tower. Although WTC-6 suffered a mssive amount of damage from falling debris and fire, it did not collapse. It was demolished with explosives weeks after 9-11 during the clean up effort at ground zero.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/de...html?page=5&c=y
The article quotes NIST's lead investigator, Shyam Sunder about the collapse of WTC Building 7. In the article Sunder claims:
- "On about a third of the face to the center and to the bottom--approximately 10 stories--about 25 percent of the depth of the building was scooped out."
If Sunder's claim was true, wouldn't the missing 25 percent of Building 7's south face affect the direction of the building's collapse? Causing it to collapse toward the missing south face instead of straight down?

MPEG video of the above pic of WTC 7's collapse w/ Dan Rather's audio(1.3MB)
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/w..._demolition.mpg
“Amazing, incredible pick your word. For the third time today, it’s reminiscent of those pictures we’ve all seen too much on television before, where a building was deliberately destroyed by well placed dynamite to knock it down.”
- CBS News anchor Dan Rather commenting on the collapse of Building 7 - September 11, 2001 at approximately 5:20pm EST.
The fact that you FAILED to provide ANY answer to the vast majority of Schneibster's objections INCUDING THE MOST COMPROMISING TO YOUR HYPOTHESIS, and instead "taking it out on a easier target" shows to me that you have ZERO interest in learning the truth. You are just here to cheer each other up.
That was my goal, to look like a fool after Schneibster's post and see if you would still respond to his post since they deserved to be responded much more than mine, or if you would jump down the easy road and just try to discredit my post. I guess its pretty clear what you did.
Since you blatantly ignore his post, I can only conclude that you prefer to ignore the evidence when it doesnt suit you, invent it when there isnt any, and conflagrate it when it could. And that you prefer to attack the person rather than the content, which is what crackpots usualy do.
That was my goal, to look like a fool after Schneibster's post and see if you would still respond to his post since they deserved to be responded much more than mine, or if you would jump down the easy road and just try to discredit my post. I guess its pretty clear what you did.
Since you blatantly ignore his post, I can only conclude that you prefer to ignore the evidence when it doesnt suit you, invent it when there isnt any, and conflagrate it when it could. And that you prefer to attack the person rather than the content, which is what crackpots usualy do.
a_ht,
I believe that Scheibster used a "Straw Man" tactic. He basically came out with the same figures I did and then said it was because of the softening steel again. That's why I didn't reply. You also have made similar remarks and I have said I disagreed with them because the analysis is incorrect and does not fit all the evidence that's available - and has now been posted by others more comprehensively than I originally did.
All those people who want to believe it was just jets and softened steel will, because of their beleifs, reject all the evidence presented here and will say that we are "stupid". I do not choose to use such language in the reverse direction but such language, used in either direction, simply does not change the basic truths here.
Best Wishes.
I believe that Scheibster used a "Straw Man" tactic. He basically came out with the same figures I did and then said it was because of the softening steel again. That's why I didn't reply. You also have made similar remarks and I have said I disagreed with them because the analysis is incorrect and does not fit all the evidence that's available - and has now been posted by others more comprehensively than I originally did.
All those people who want to believe it was just jets and softened steel will, because of their beleifs, reject all the evidence presented here and will say that we are "stupid". I do not choose to use such language in the reverse direction but such language, used in either direction, simply does not change the basic truths here.
Best Wishes.
Best wishes,
As i said, no one will change their minds here. (both parties included)
As i said, no one will change their minds here. (both parties included)
A_ht. Prove to me it was bin laden then.
For every piece of information you find that supports the official (albeit incredulous) story, I will find you one hundred pieces of information that contradict the official line. Do your own investigation. Use "official" information. Where is the evidence?
Recommended investigative sites and articles
Research/analysis
http://www.team8plus.org/forum.php
Final dots (nico haupt analysis from 2002)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-b...D43&archive=yes
Wargames (method)
http://www.scienceforums.net/forums/showth...=11th+september
Is "terrorism" a valid war tactic?
http://www.scienceforums.net/forums/showth...=11th+september
Complete 9-11 timeline
http://cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.js...te_911_timeline
Info/techno Blogs
http://cryptogon.com/
http://cryptome.org/
Occult aspect of 9-11
The Coincidence Theorist's Guide to 9/11
http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2004...ide-to-911.html
Skeleton Keys to the Global Narco-Oil-Pedo-Trafficking Pirate Empire Part One
http://www.loudwire.net/users/channel_null/
For every piece of information you find that supports the official (albeit incredulous) story, I will find you one hundred pieces of information that contradict the official line. Do your own investigation. Use "official" information. Where is the evidence?
Recommended investigative sites and articles
Research/analysis
http://www.team8plus.org/forum.php
Final dots (nico haupt analysis from 2002)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-b...D43&archive=yes
Wargames (method)
http://www.scienceforums.net/forums/showth...=11th+september
Is "terrorism" a valid war tactic?
http://www.scienceforums.net/forums/showth...=11th+september
Complete 9-11 timeline
http://cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.js...te_911_timeline
Info/techno Blogs
http://cryptogon.com/
http://cryptome.org/
Occult aspect of 9-11
The Coincidence Theorist's Guide to 9/11
http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2004...ide-to-911.html
Skeleton Keys to the Global Narco-Oil-Pedo-Trafficking Pirate Empire Part One
http://www.loudwire.net/users/channel_null/
Initially, George Washington has a new article about controlled-demolition like sounds preceding the collapses: http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2005/...-boom-bang.html
Also, building 7's diesel fuel tanks were all sitting quite low in the building. Specifically,
all of the diesel tanks were on the seventh floor (where there was only "a small fuel tank") or below:
http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.htm...DA80994D9404482
(free preview; full article is pay-per-view; cached version here
http://prisonplanet.com/engineers_are_baff..._of_7_wtc.html)
But, 7's collapse started near the TOP, didn't it?
And there was no big explosion right before collapse at floors 7 and
lower from the diesel, right?.
Isn't that conclusive proof that the diesel fuel tanks didn't cause the first-high-rise-steel-building-to-ever-collapse-which-wasn't-even-hit-by-a-plane?
Also, building 7's diesel fuel tanks were all sitting quite low in the building. Specifically,
all of the diesel tanks were on the seventh floor (where there was only "a small fuel tank") or below:
http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.htm...DA80994D9404482
(free preview; full article is pay-per-view; cached version here
http://prisonplanet.com/engineers_are_baff..._of_7_wtc.html)
But, 7's collapse started near the TOP, didn't it?
And there was no big explosion right before collapse at floors 7 and
lower from the diesel, right?.
Isn't that conclusive proof that the diesel fuel tanks didn't cause the first-high-rise-steel-building-to-ever-collapse-which-wasn't-even-hit-by-a-plane?
QUOTE (Jon Pratt+Oct 14 2005, 06:20 PM)
A_ht. Prove to me it was bin laden then.
For every piece of information you find that supports the official (albeit incredulous) story, I will find you one hundred pieces of information that contradict the official line. Do your own investigation. Use "official" information. Where is the evidence?
Recommended investigative sites and articles
Research/analysis
http://www.team8plus.org/forum.php
Final dots (nico haupt analysis from 2002)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-b...D43&archive=yes
Wargames (method)
http://www.scienceforums.net/forums/showth...=11th+september
Is "terrorism" a valid war tactic?
http://www.scienceforums.net/forums/showth...=11th+september
Complete 9-11 timeline
http://cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.js...te_911_timeline
Info/techno Blogs
http://cryptogon.com/
http://cryptome.org/
Occult aspect of 9-11
The Coincidence Theorist's Guide to 9/11
http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2004...ide-to-911.html
Skeleton Keys to the Global Narco-Oil-Pedo-Trafficking Pirate Empire Part One
http://www.loudwire.net/users/channel_null/
Well, if a six hundred page, fourty million dollar report which you probably didnt read did not convinced you, I don't see what I could do in my spare time that will.
For every piece of information you find that supports the official (albeit incredulous) story, I will find you one hundred pieces of information that contradict the official line. Do your own investigation. Use "official" information. Where is the evidence?
Recommended investigative sites and articles
Research/analysis
http://www.team8plus.org/forum.php
Final dots (nico haupt analysis from 2002)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-b...D43&archive=yes
Wargames (method)
http://www.scienceforums.net/forums/showth...=11th+september
Is "terrorism" a valid war tactic?
http://www.scienceforums.net/forums/showth...=11th+september
Complete 9-11 timeline
http://cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.js...te_911_timeline
Info/techno Blogs
http://cryptogon.com/
http://cryptome.org/
Occult aspect of 9-11
The Coincidence Theorist's Guide to 9/11
http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2004...ide-to-911.html
Skeleton Keys to the Global Narco-Oil-Pedo-Trafficking Pirate Empire Part One
http://www.loudwire.net/users/channel_null/
Well, if a six hundred page, fourty million dollar report which you probably didnt read did not convinced you, I don't see what I could do in my spare time that will.
QUOTE (a_ht+Oct 14 2005, 07:50 PM)
QUOTE (Jon Pratt+Oct 14 2005, 06:20 PM)
A_ht. Prove to me it was bin laden then.
For every piece of information you find that supports the official (albeit incredulous) story, I will find you one hundred pieces of information that contradict the official line. Do your own investigation. Use "official" information. Where is the evidence?
Recommended investigative sites and articles
Research/analysis
http://www.team8plus.org/forum.php
Final dots (nico haupt analysis from 2002)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-b...D43&archive=yes
Wargames (method)
http://www.scienceforums.net/forums/showth...=11th+september
Is "terrorism" a valid war tactic?
http://www.scienceforums.net/forums/showth...=11th+september
Complete 9-11 timeline
http://cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.js...te_911_timeline
Info/techno Blogs
http://cryptogon.com/
http://cryptome.org/
Occult aspect of 9-11
The Coincidence Theorist's Guide to 9/11
http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2004...ide-to-911.html
Skeleton Keys to the Global Narco-Oil-Pedo-Trafficking Pirate Empire Part One
http://www.loudwire.net/users/channel_null/
Well, if a fourty million dollar report which you probably didnt read did not convinced you, I don't see what I could do in my spare time that will.
a_ht
You couldnt convince a lemming to jump.
(Drat, Ive broken my silence on a_ht's "posts" (I use speech marks because they arent really posts as such are they...)
For every piece of information you find that supports the official (albeit incredulous) story, I will find you one hundred pieces of information that contradict the official line. Do your own investigation. Use "official" information. Where is the evidence?
Recommended investigative sites and articles
Research/analysis
http://www.team8plus.org/forum.php
Final dots (nico haupt analysis from 2002)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-b...D43&archive=yes
Wargames (method)
http://www.scienceforums.net/forums/showth...=11th+september
Is "terrorism" a valid war tactic?
http://www.scienceforums.net/forums/showth...=11th+september
Complete 9-11 timeline
http://cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.js...te_911_timeline
Info/techno Blogs
http://cryptogon.com/
http://cryptome.org/
Occult aspect of 9-11
The Coincidence Theorist's Guide to 9/11
http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2004...ide-to-911.html
Skeleton Keys to the Global Narco-Oil-Pedo-Trafficking Pirate Empire Part One
http://www.loudwire.net/users/channel_null/
Well, if a fourty million dollar report which you probably didnt read did not convinced you, I don't see what I could do in my spare time that will.
a_ht
You couldnt convince a lemming to jump.
(Drat, Ive broken my silence on a_ht's "posts" (I use speech marks because they arent really posts as such are they...)
Why do you assume im trying to convince anyone... I have long stop trying to do so. I am only here to form my own opinion about this subject. since I pretty much did, ive lost interest and im only responding to threads specicaly adressed to me, such as yours.
Hello everyone.
Now let’s see...hmmmm...
(1) A steel frame skyscraper which, UNLIKE ALL PREVIOUS SKYSCRAPERS, used ONLY an outer ‘SHELL’ of steel and glass to essentially produce a ‘square tube’ from whose ‘walls’ were suspended floor slabs fixed at their edges by welds/rivets etc. to that ‘exo-skeleton’ framework;
(2) Those floor slabs, UNLIKE PREVIOUS SKYSCRAPERS, had LITTLE or NO CONTIGUOUS CENTRAL SUPPORT FRAMEWORK/CONCRETE-COLUMNS running from foundations to roof;
(3) An airplane weighing 200 HUNDRED TONS or so (all of its mass CONSISTING OF HIGH-ENERGY FUEL ALUMINIUM, GAS AND BODIES) shears into the walls of this ‘tube’ structure and PLONKS THE LOT ON FLIMSILY SUPPORTED FLOOR SLABS, thus STRESSING THE CONNECTIONS between ‘otherwise-unsupported’ floor slabs and outer walls;
(4) The high-temperature ALUMINIUM AND HYDROCARBON FIRESTORM weakens the ALREADY-SHEARED WALL-FRAMEWORK that was supporting the 1000+ TONS of weight represented by the floors (plus roof service tanks/structures) above the impact site;
(5) These 1000+ TON of upper floor material (slabs, frame, glass windows, roof structures/tanks, people, fixtures and fittings etc), after having their supporting framework sheared/heat-softened from under them, then collapse and are GRAVITY-ACCELERATED straight down on top of the floor slab whose ‘edge-to-tube-frame-wall connections were first weakened/sheared by initial plane impact/weight stress.
(6) This ‘impact-site’ slab’s EDGE-TO-OUTER-FRAMEWORK CONNECTIONS (which have, like the walls themselves, been already catastrophically-compromised by 200 TON impact and then further compromised by EXTREME HEAT from ‘FURNACE-LIKE’ burning of 200 TONS of high-energy ‘metal/hydrocarbon fuel) THEN HAS 1000+ TONS OF FAST-MOVING HIGHER-FLOORS MATERIAL ‘DUMPED’ ON IT;
(7) The impact floor, WHICH HAD NO ‘CENTRAL’ SUPPORT TO SPEAK OF, and which was NEVER DESIGNED TO TAKE EVEN A ‘FRACTION’ OF SUCH INSULTS TO ITS STRUCTURAL/CONNECTION INTEGRITY, naturally gives up the ghost and ITSELF JOINS THE UPPER SLABS on their downward plunge, ALL THE WHILE EACH ‘FAILING’ FLOOR SLAB ADDING TO THE WEIGHT/MOMENTUM OF THE ALREADY-FAST-FALLING MASS;
(8) The falling slabs concertina-ed together EFFECTIVELY FORM/ACT AS AN IRRESISTIBLE ‘PRESSURING PISTON’ forced INEXORABLY by gravity to travel down INSIDE THE ‘TUBULAR EXO-SKELETON’ of steel and glass, all the while accumulating weight and momentum AND AIR-PRESSURE-SHOCK-WAVE-front, all of which CAUSES EACH SUCCEEDING FLOOR SLAB TO ‘DISCONNECT’ AND COLLAPSE FASTER THAN THE PRECEDING FLOOR SLAB;
(9) This effectively-irresistible ‘piston’ mass PRESSURISES GREATLY/SUDDENLY THE TRAPPED AIR AT THE LEVELS AHEAD OF ITS ACCELERATING PROGRESS; and this ‘pressure-wave’ causes that air TO ESCAPE EXPLOSIVELY (have you ever even HEARD of explosive de-compression?) OUT THE WINDOW OPENINGS, taking the glass and other items nearby with it (hence the ‘explosions’ heard by witnesses who didn’t understand what was actually happening other than they heard ‘explosions’ progressively down the length of the building ahead of the ‘collapse-front’) and hence the ‘stuff’ sent ‘flying’ at great speed in ALL DIRECTIONS from the walls, and the ‘orange flashes’ caused by progressive high-compression ignition (just like in DIESEL ENGINES of combustible/flammable/explosive liquids/gases/particulates/glues/furnishings etc. on those floors.
GEE!...I WONDER WHY THOSE ‘HOLLOW TUBE’ SKYSCRAPERS COLLAPSED SO FAST AND SO EASY?...asks ONE Village Idiot of the OTHER Village Idiot.
My oh my; where DO they come from so 'thick' and so 'clever'....or is it just mercenary self interest driving both THIS and that OTHER thread? Either way, it’s not a good look. It won’t wash, mate....you’re BOTH busted!
This will be posted in both the relevant threads, just in case either VI is not currently in touch with the other VI.
Best regards to everyone from: RealityCheck.
.
Now let’s see...hmmmm...
(1) A steel frame skyscraper which, UNLIKE ALL PREVIOUS SKYSCRAPERS, used ONLY an outer ‘SHELL’ of steel and glass to essentially produce a ‘square tube’ from whose ‘walls’ were suspended floor slabs fixed at their edges by welds/rivets etc. to that ‘exo-skeleton’ framework;
(2) Those floor slabs, UNLIKE PREVIOUS SKYSCRAPERS, had LITTLE or NO CONTIGUOUS CENTRAL SUPPORT FRAMEWORK/CONCRETE-COLUMNS running from foundations to roof;
(3) An airplane weighing 200 HUNDRED TONS or so (all of its mass CONSISTING OF HIGH-ENERGY FUEL ALUMINIUM, GAS AND BODIES) shears into the walls of this ‘tube’ structure and PLONKS THE LOT ON FLIMSILY SUPPORTED FLOOR SLABS, thus STRESSING THE CONNECTIONS between ‘otherwise-unsupported’ floor slabs and outer walls;
(4) The high-temperature ALUMINIUM AND HYDROCARBON FIRESTORM weakens the ALREADY-SHEARED WALL-FRAMEWORK that was supporting the 1000+ TONS of weight represented by the floors (plus roof service tanks/structures) above the impact site;
(5) These 1000+ TON of upper floor material (slabs, frame, glass windows, roof structures/tanks, people, fixtures and fittings etc), after having their supporting framework sheared/heat-softened from under them, then collapse and are GRAVITY-ACCELERATED straight down on top of the floor slab whose ‘edge-to-tube-frame-wall connections were first weakened/sheared by initial plane impact/weight stress.
(6) This ‘impact-site’ slab’s EDGE-TO-OUTER-FRAMEWORK CONNECTIONS (which have, like the walls themselves, been already catastrophically-compromised by 200 TON impact and then further compromised by EXTREME HEAT from ‘FURNACE-LIKE’ burning of 200 TONS of high-energy ‘metal/hydrocarbon fuel) THEN HAS 1000+ TONS OF FAST-MOVING HIGHER-FLOORS MATERIAL ‘DUMPED’ ON IT;
(7) The impact floor, WHICH HAD NO ‘CENTRAL’ SUPPORT TO SPEAK OF, and which was NEVER DESIGNED TO TAKE EVEN A ‘FRACTION’ OF SUCH INSULTS TO ITS STRUCTURAL/CONNECTION INTEGRITY, naturally gives up the ghost and ITSELF JOINS THE UPPER SLABS on their downward plunge, ALL THE WHILE EACH ‘FAILING’ FLOOR SLAB ADDING TO THE WEIGHT/MOMENTUM OF THE ALREADY-FAST-FALLING MASS;
(8) The falling slabs concertina-ed together EFFECTIVELY FORM/ACT AS AN IRRESISTIBLE ‘PRESSURING PISTON’ forced INEXORABLY by gravity to travel down INSIDE THE ‘TUBULAR EXO-SKELETON’ of steel and glass, all the while accumulating weight and momentum AND AIR-PRESSURE-SHOCK-WAVE-front, all of which CAUSES EACH SUCCEEDING FLOOR SLAB TO ‘DISCONNECT’ AND COLLAPSE FASTER THAN THE PRECEDING FLOOR SLAB;
(9) This effectively-irresistible ‘piston’ mass PRESSURISES GREATLY/SUDDENLY THE TRAPPED AIR AT THE LEVELS AHEAD OF ITS ACCELERATING PROGRESS; and this ‘pressure-wave’ causes that air TO ESCAPE EXPLOSIVELY (have you ever even HEARD of explosive de-compression?) OUT THE WINDOW OPENINGS, taking the glass and other items nearby with it (hence the ‘explosions’ heard by witnesses who didn’t understand what was actually happening other than they heard ‘explosions’ progressively down the length of the building ahead of the ‘collapse-front’) and hence the ‘stuff’ sent ‘flying’ at great speed in ALL DIRECTIONS from the walls, and the ‘orange flashes’ caused by progressive high-compression ignition (just like in DIESEL ENGINES of combustible/flammable/explosive liquids/gases/particulates/glues/furnishings etc. on those floors.
GEE!...I WONDER WHY THOSE ‘HOLLOW TUBE’ SKYSCRAPERS COLLAPSED SO FAST AND SO EASY?...asks ONE Village Idiot of the OTHER Village Idiot.
My oh my; where DO they come from so 'thick' and so 'clever'....or is it just mercenary self interest driving both THIS and that OTHER thread? Either way, it’s not a good look. It won’t wash, mate....you’re BOTH busted!
This will be posted in both the relevant threads, just in case either VI is not currently in touch with the other VI.
Best regards to everyone from: RealityCheck.
.
..yeah, don´t tell me...3 times this happened...
QUOTE (Andrew+)
Schneibster,
I am sorry, I really can't respond easily to the way you have made your posts. If you want to think that I am merely being evasive because I am lying or being lazy or untruthful, then you are entitled to such an opinion.
I am sorry, I really can't respond easily to the way you have made your posts. If you want to think that I am merely being evasive because I am lying or being lazy or untruthful, then you are entitled to such an opinion.
No, actually, I think you really believe it- that's not the problem. The problem is, I also think you're wrong, and I think it's intellectually dishonest not to respond. It's merely a matter of taking the time to do it- and the fact that you will not is sufficient to convince me that your goal here was not actually to investigate the "Basic Physics" of the situation; I will not speculate other than that, it's up to you to tell us what you were REALLY doing.
QUOTE (Andrew+)
I only have a limited time to spend on this activity, so must attend to other things (I am already behind with student report writing and software development, for example).
I am willing to wait for any reasonable amount of time; but that's not really the issue, is it? The issue is, you simply don't have any response to any of this, because you never really understood how it works in the first place. And you can't be bothered to actually think about it; your emotions are telling you how you want it to be and you are suffering severe cognitive dissonance because reading what I wrote forces you to either make a post like this, which is BS of the first order, or to acknowledge that how you want it to be just isn't how it is.
You are simply wrong, the "facts" you have cited do not measure up, and your statements of those "facts" does not match the reality of the situation. You have no response, and you have not the personal integrity to acknowledge it. That's fine; provided that you understand that anyone who actually understands these things is fully aware of how things are with you.
You are simply wrong, the "facts" you have cited do not measure up, and your statements of those "facts" does not match the reality of the situation. You have no response, and you have not the personal integrity to acknowledge it. That's fine; provided that you understand that anyone who actually understands these things is fully aware of how things are with you.
QUOTE (Andrew+)
I feel the most, if not all the points you made have been covered in earliers posts in one way or another.
This is a lie. I invite you to show where in this thread any answers to any of the points I raised have been given. I see none, and there are none, and saying there are is a plain, flat, bare-faced, bald, lie, no better than what the current Administration of this country does. I see absolutely no difference between you and them, and I will say so whenever I see crap like this.
QUOTE (Andrew+)
I freely admit that I have not made qualitative or quantitive analyses of ALL of the aspects of the basic physics of the demolition of the Towers - there are many questions. I chose to discuss the free fall issue because it is the most clear cut. And I will simply disagree with anyone who says it was all as result of burning carpet/wood and steel - for all the reasons mentioned in earlier posts (including ones by a structural engineer, who agrees with the freefall collapse/explosives usage).
Allow me to quote you from earlier in this thread:
QUOTE (Andrew+)
Dear All,
I invite everyone reading this to disprove basic Physics and Chemistry I (and many others) have presented regarding the collapse of the World Trade Centre towers.
...
People can disagree with me for sure, but please point out the error in my Physics if you are going to do so.
I invite everyone reading this to disprove basic Physics and Chemistry I (and many others) have presented regarding the collapse of the World Trade Centre towers.
...
People can disagree with me for sure, but please point out the error in my Physics if you are going to do so.
I have pointed out major errors in basic physics, and you are now engaged in ignoring those basic errors. You asked, and I answered. What could be simpler? I think it's obvious that you have absolutely no answer to anything I said.
I also point out yet again that "free fall" has absolutely nothing to do with the speed at which either tower fell. In fact, the amount of time available was clearly enough for an object in free fall to fall 2.3 times the height of the towers:
d = 1/2at^2
a = 9.8m/s^2
t = 14s
d = 960.4m = 417m * 2.3
What is also clear is that you do not have either the personal integrity or the courage to acknowledge that you are wrong when presented with clear and compelling evidence that it is so. I am sorry, but I have absolutely no respect for someone who lacks both personal integrity and the courage necessary to admit they were wrong; it's really not very hard.
You have turned out to be a complete waste of time. Good bye.
I also point out yet again that "free fall" has absolutely nothing to do with the speed at which either tower fell. In fact, the amount of time available was clearly enough for an object in free fall to fall 2.3 times the height of the towers:
d = 1/2at^2
a = 9.8m/s^2
t = 14s
d = 960.4m = 417m * 2.3
What is also clear is that you do not have either the personal integrity or the courage to acknowledge that you are wrong when presented with clear and compelling evidence that it is so. I am sorry, but I have absolutely no respect for someone who lacks both personal integrity and the courage necessary to admit they were wrong; it's really not very hard.
You have turned out to be a complete waste of time. Good bye.
QUOTE (Andrew+)
I believe that Scheibster used a "Straw Man" tactic.
A "Straw man" is the practice of misrepresenting someone's argument, then disproving the misstatement and claiming that this disproves the argument. Interestingly, that appears to be precisely what you have done; I will demonstrate this. Watch closely:
Brian, you forgot the picture!

Brian, you forgot the picture!

You can listen to scientist Jim Hoffman thoroughly debunk the FEMA (and other) Fairy Tale at:
http://kpfa.org/archives/index.php?arch=4344&page=3&type=all
http://kpfa.org/archives/index.php?arch=5608&page=3&type=all
He does this scientifically, giving quantitative figures where that is plausible and/or available. He also discusses qualitative issues scientifically, e.g., the fact that as the top of the South Tower began to keel over, it obviously acquired angular momentum and would have continued rotating if it had remained a solid body.
Speaking of which, from http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/c...shattering.html
The Twin Towers' Frames Disintegrated Before Falling
A movie taken from the east gives one of the most complete records of the South Tower collapse. The motion of the top revealed by the movie has some very strange features. At first the motion consists of a tipping of the approximately 30 stories above the impact zone as a unit, about a fulcrum in or around the impact zone. The tipping motion accelerates for about 2.5 seconds. Then, at about the time the first large ejections of dust start at the impact zone, the motion of the top changes: It begins to fall precipitously, and its rotation (imparted by the tipping) rapidly decelerates and virtually ceases after a second.
The rapid downward acceleration indicates that the fulcrum has been destroyed. This is difficult to reconcile with a gravity-driven collapse. Since the top had already tipped about 15 degrees, the downward force on the building's structure below the fulcrum was already decreasing. One would expect the tipping to continue, eventually resulting in the top falling like a tree.
Disappearing Angular Momentum
The deceleration of the top's rotation is even more discrediting to the idea of a gravity-driven collapse, which cannot explain the documented changes in angular momentum. Conservation of angular momentum is the tendency of a rotating solid object to continue rotating at the same rate in the absence of torque. Initially the block consisting of the top 30 stories of the tower acted as a solid object, and rotated about a fulcrum near the impact zone. Although the fulcrum was the axis of rotation, the block had two types of momentum: the angular momentum of the block around its center of gravity, and the linear momentum of its center of gravity tilting away from the tower's vertical axis. When the portion of the building below the collapse zone disintegrated, the block would preserve its angular momentum by continuing to rotate at the same rate (but the acceleration of the rotation would cease due to the removal of the torque that was being applied by intact columns at the fulcrum). But in reality, the rotation of the block rapidly decelerated as the downward plunge began. Once the fall started, any resistance it encountered from parts of the building would have imparted torque on the block in the same direction as the original fulcrum, and would have accelerated its rotation.
Given the apparent absence of any torque to counter the rotation of the block, the slowing of its rotation can only be explained by the breakup of most of the block, which would have destroyed its moment of inertia.

This photograph shows the top of the South Tower disintegrating as it has only just begun to fall. Note the curves in the edges of the walls above the zone of collapse.
There is clear visual evidence that the structural frames of many stories above the impact zones in both towers were shattered before the tops had fallen significant distances. The evidence is particularly strong in the case of the South Tower.
(emphasis mine in the quote just below the picture)
I beg your pardon. I have indeed used physics to show that the FEMA Fairy Tale version of collapse is impossible. Nobody has even attempted to challenge my post quantitatively, though there was one suggestion (I think it was serious, though I'm not entirely sure) by RealityCheck who suggested that I add in the heat energy released by the people inside the plane when their bodies burned, as well as the heat produced by "combustible aluminum" and other metals. If you or anybody else can come up with an energy budget that gives a hope and a prayer of showing that the FEMA Fairy Tale is plausible, please post it now.
I've also provided a link to Hoffman's paper, that shows that the energy needed to drive the expansion of the dust cloud produced by the collapse of WTC1 was conservatively 10x the dominant energy source. (He completely ignored the energy sink represented by the need to heat the steel sufficiently to weaken it to the point of collapse. Obviously, he didn't need to consider it.)
If you're going to attack somebody's integrity by stating a falsehood, I don't think we should take you too seriously.....
I'd appreciate it if others (pro or con) would go over his paper his paper to double check it.
Perhaps it was asking too much of you to click the link. Never fear, metamars is here! I will quote the article here, but if you want the whole enchilada, with the photo, hyperlinks, and tables, you really should click the
link.
I beg your pardon. I have indeed used physics to show that the FEMA Fairy Tale version of collapse is impossible. Nobody has even attempted to challenge my post quantitatively, though there was one suggestion (I think it was serious, though I'm not entirely sure) by RealityCheck who suggested that I add in the heat energy released by the people inside the plane when their bodies burned, as well as the heat produced by "combustible aluminum" and other metals. If you or anybody else can come up with an energy budget that gives a hope and a prayer of showing that the FEMA Fairy Tale is plausible, please post it now.
I've also provided a link to Hoffman's paper, that shows that the energy needed to drive the expansion of the dust cloud produced by the collapse of WTC1 was conservatively 10x the dominant energy source. (He completely ignored the energy sink represented by the need to heat the steel sufficiently to weaken it to the point of collapse. Obviously, he didn't need to consider it.)
If you're going to attack somebody's integrity by stating a falsehood, I don't think we should take you too seriously.....
I'd appreciate it if others (pro or con) would go over his paper his paper to double check it.
Perhaps it was asking too much of you to click the link. Never fear, metamars is here! I will quote the article here, but if you want the whole enchilada, with the photo, hyperlinks, and tables, you really should click the
link.
The North Tower's Dust Cloud
Analysis of Energy Requirements for the Expansion of the Dust Cloud Following the Collapse of 1 World Trade Center
by Jim Hoffman
October 16, 2003
[Version 3]
On September 11th, Both of the Twin Towers disintegrated into vast clouds of concrete and other materials, which blanketed Lower Manhattan. This paper shows that the energy required to produce the expansion of the dust cloud observed immediately following the collapse of 1 World Trade Center (the North Tower) was much greater than the gravitational energy available from its elevated mass. It uses only basic physics.
Introduction
Vast amounts of energy were released during the collapse of each of the Twin Towers in Lower Manhattan on September 11th, 2001. The accepted source of this energy was the gravitational potential energy of the towers, which was far greater than the energy released by the fires that preceded the collapses. The magnitude of that source cannot be determined with much precision thanks to the secrecy surrounding details of the towers' construction. However, FEMA's Building Performance Assessment Report gives an estimate: "Construction of WTC 1 resulted in the storage of more than 4 x 10^11 joules of potential energy over the 1,368-foot height of the structure." That is equal to about 111,000 KWH (kilowatt hours) per tower.
Of the many identifiable energy sinks in the collapses, one of the only ones that has been subjected to quantitative analysis is the thorough pulverization of the concrete in the towers. It is well documented that nearly all of the non-metallic constituents of the towers were pulverized into fine powder. The largest of these constituents by weight was the concrete that constituted the floor slabs of the towers. Jerry Russell estimated that the amount of energy required to crush concrete to 60 micron powder is about 1.5 KWH/ton. (See http://www.911-strike.com/powder.htm.) That paper incorrectly assumes there were 600,000 tons of concrete in each tower, but Russell later provided a more accurate estimate of 90,000 tons of concrete per tower, based on FEMA's description of the towers' construction. That estimate implies the energy sink of concrete pulverization was on the order of 135,000 KWH per tower, which is already larger than the energy source of gravitational energy. However, the size of this sink is critically dependent on the fineness of the concrete powder, and on mechanical characteristics of the lightweight concrete thought to have been used in the towers. Available statistics about particle sizes of the dust, such as the study by Paul J. Lioy, et al., characterize particle sizes of aggregate dust samples, not of its constituents, such as concrete, fiberglass, hydrocarbon soot, etc. Based on diverse evidence, 60 microns would appear to be a high estimate for average concrete particle size, suggesting 135,000 KWH is a conservative estimate for the magnitude of the sink.
A second energy sink, that has apparently been overlooked, was many times the magnitude of the gravitational energy: the energy needed to expand the dust clouds to several times the volume of each tower within 30 seconds of the onset of their collapses. Note that the contents of the dust clouds had to come from building constituents -- gases and materials inside of or intrinsic to the building -- modulo any mixing with outside air. Given that the Twin Towers' dust clouds behaved like pyroclastic flows, with distinct boundaries and rapidly expanding frontiers (averaging perhaps 35 feet/second on the ground for the first 30 seconds), it is doubtful that mixing with ambient air accounted for a significant fraction of their volume. Therefore the dust clouds' expansion must have been primarily due to an expansion of building constituents. Possible sources of expansion include:
* thermodynamic expansion of gases
* vaporization of liquids and solids
* chemical reactions resulting in a net increase in gaseous phase molecules
The evidence does not support the idea that chemical reactions in the dust cloud liberated vast quantities of gases. That leaves increases in gas temperatures and vaporization of solids and liquids, primarily water, to drive the expansion.
How much heat energy was involved in expanding the dust clouds? To calculate the energy we need to answer three questions:
1. What was the volume of the dust clouds from a collapse at some time soon after it started (before the clouds began to diffuse)?
2. How did the mixing of the dust cloud with ambient air contribute to its size, and how can this be factored out to obtain the volume occupied by gases and suspended materials originally inside the building?
3. What is the ratio of that volume to the volume of the intact building?
4. How much heat energy was required to produce that ratio of expansion?
Since I have better photographs for North Tower dust, I did the calculation for it.
1. Quantifying Dust Cloud Volume
To answer question 1, I made estimates based on photographs taken at approximately 30 seconds after the onset of the collapse. The photo in Figure 1 appears to have been taken around 30 seconds after the initiation of the collapse of the North Tower. The fact that the spire is visible directly behind Building 7 indicates the photo was not taken later than the 30 seconds, since video records show that the spire started to collapse at the around 29 seconds. In this photograph, as in other ones taken around that time, the dust clouds still have distinct boundaries.
Figure 1. Photograph from Chapter 5 of FEMA's Building Performance Assessment Report.
I used landmarks in this photo to make several approximate measurements of the frontier of the dust cloud. The following table lists some of them. Measurements are in feet. The first column lists heights above the street, and the second lists distances from the vertical axis of the North Tower.
label height distance description
3 230 1011 west corner of 45 Park Place
5 228 729 top of south corner of building with stepped roof
6 204 658 east corner of Building 7, 30 stories below top
7 600 776 upwell towering over southeast end of Post Office
8 700 ? upwell slightly higher than the top of Building 7
11 190 870 top of west corner of 22 Cortland St tower
12 508 588 8 stories below top of face of WFC 3
13 498 517 3 stories below top of upper face of WFC 2
To approximate the volume I used a cylinder, coaxial with the vertical axis of the North Tower, with a radius of 800 feet, and a height of 200 feet. All the above reference points lie outside of this volume. Although the cylinder does not lie entirely within the dust cloud, there are large parts of the cloud outside of it, such as the 700 foot high upwelling column south of Building 7. The cylinder has a volume of:
pi * (800 feet)^2 * 200 feet = 402,000,000 feet^3.
I subtract about a quarter for volume occupied by other buildings, giving 300,000,000 feet^3.
2. Factoring out Mixing and Diffusion
To accurately answer question 2 would require detailed knowledge of the fluid dynamics involved. However it does appear that for at least a minute, the dust cloud behaved as a separate fluid from the ambient air, maintaining a distinct boundary. There are several pieces of evidence that support this:
* The WTC dust clouds inexorably advanced down streets at around 25 MPH. This is far faster than can be explained by mixing and diffusion.
* As the dust clouds advanced outward, features on their frontiers evolved relatively slowly compared to the clouds' rates of advance. This indicates that that clouds were expanding from within and that if surface turbulence was incorporating ambient air, it's contribution to expansion was minor.
* The top surface of the clouds looked like the surface of a boiling viscous liquid - churning but not mixing with the air above. Sinking portions of the clouds were replaced by clear air, not a mixture of the cloud and air.
* The dust clouds maintained distinct interfaces for well over a minute. Mixing and diffusion would have produced diffuse interfaces.
* There are reports of people being picked up and carried distances by the South Tower dust cloud, which felt solid. New York Daily News photographer David Handschuh recalled:
Instinctively I lifted the camera up, and something took over that probably saved my life. And that was [an urge] to run rather than take pictures. I got down to the end of the block and turned the corner when a wave-- a hot, solid, black wave of heat threw me down the block. It literally picked me up off my feet and I wound up about a block away.
Initially the dust clouds must have been much heavier than air, given the mass of the concrete they carried and the distances they transported it. As time went on the cloud became more diffuse, but all of the photographs that can be verified as being within the first minute show opaque clouds with distinct boundaries, indicating the dominant mode of growth was expansion, not mixing or diffusion. It seems reasonable to assume that mixing with ambient air did not account for a significant fraction of the expansion in the volume of the dust cloud by 30 seconds of the start of the North Tower collapse. Nevertheless, I reduce the estimate of the dust cloud volume of building origin to 200,000,000 feet^3, imagining that a third of the growth may have been due to assimilation of ambient air.
3. Computing the Expansion Ratio
The answer to question 3 is easy. The volume of a tower, with it's 207 foot width and 1368 foot height, is:
1368 feet * 207 feet * 207 feet = 58,617,432 feet^3.
So the ratio of the expanded gasses and suspended materials from the tower to the original volume of the tower is:
200,000,000 feet^3 / 58,617,432 feet^3 = 3.41.
4. Computing the Required Heat Input
Above I identified two energy sinks that could have driven expansion of the dust cloud: thermodynamic expansion of gases, and vaporization of liquids and solids. Since most constituents and contents of the building other than water would require very high temperatures to vaporize, I consider only the vaporization of water in evaluating the second sink.
It is clearly not possible to determine with any precision the relative contributions of these two sinks to the expansion of the dust cloud. If the cloud remained uniform in temperature and density for the first 30 seconds, then the expansion would consist of three distinct phases:
* The temperature would increase to 100 C, accompanied by thermodynamic expansion.
* The temperature would remain at 100 C until all of the water was vaporized.
* The temperature would increase above 100 C, again accompanied by thermodynamic expansion.
Since such uniform conditions were not present, I will first treat the two energy sinks separately, and will compute the energy requirements for each if it alone were responsible for the expansion.
4.1. The Thermodynamic Expansion Sink
The ideal gas law can be used to compute a lower bound for the amount of heat energy required to induce the observed expansion of the dust cloud, assuming that the expansion was entirely due to thermodynamic expansion. That law states that the product of the volume and pressure of a parcel of a gas is proportional to absolute temperature. It is written PV = nRT, where:
P = pressure
V = volume
T = absolute temperature
n = molar quantity
R = constant
Absolute temperature is expressed in Kelvin (K), which is Celsius + 273. Applied to the tower collapse, the equation holds that the ratio of volumes of gasses from the building before and after expansion is roughly equal to the ratio of temperatures of the gasses before and after heating. That allows us to compute the minimum energy needed to achieve a given expansion ratio knowing only the thermal mass of the gasses and their average temperature before the collapse.
I say that the ideal gas law allows the computation of only the lower bound of the required energy input due to the following four factors.
# The finite size of molecules leads to a slight departure from the ideal gas law wherein the expansion of a parcel of gas leads to a decrease in its temperature. This means that slightly more heat energy is needed to achieve a given expansion ratio than is predicted by the ideal gas law.
# The dust cloud at the time of the photograph used to estimate its volume had not finished expanding. Videos show that it continued to expand well after the 1 minute mark.
# The suspended dust in the cloud had many times the mass of the gasses. This increased the energy needed to expand the dust cloud since it takes energy to lift and accelerate mass.
# The suspended dust in the cloud had many times the thermal mass of the gasses. Increasing in temperature of the dust cloud to a level needed to induce the observed expansion entailed raising the temperature of the gasses and suspended solids by similar amounts. Since the solids had many times the thermal capacity of the gasses, this multiplied the energy requirements.
In this paper I examine only the fourth factor. Before considering its effect on energy requirements, I first consider the energy requirements of heating only the gasses in the clouds to the level needed to achieve the observed expansion.
According to the ideal gas law, expanding the gasses 3.4-fold requires raising their absolute temperature by the same ratio. If we assume the tower was at 300 degrees K before the collapse, then the target temperature would be 1020 degrees K, an increase of 720 degrees. Given a density of 36 g/foot^3 for air, the tower held about 2,000,000,000 g of air. Air has a specific heat of 0.24 (relative to 1 for water), so one calorie will raise one g of air 1 / 0.24 = 4.16 degrees. To raise 2,000,000,000 g by 720 degrees requires:
2,000,000,000 g * 720 degrees * 0.24 = 345,600,000,000 calories
= 399,500 KWH
To evaluate the energy requirements of the fourth factor, it is necessary to consider the composition of the dust cloud. The cloud was a suspension of fine particles of concrete and other solids in gasses consisting mostly of air. Since concrete was the dominant solid, I will ignore the others, which included glass, gypsum, asbestos, and various hydrocarbons. The small size of the particles, being in the 10-60 micron range, would assure rapid equalization between their temperature and that of the embedding air. Therefore any heat source acting to raise the temperature of the air would have to raise the temperature of the suspended concrete by the same amount. Assuming all 90,000,000,000 g of concrete was raised 720 degrees (300 K to 1020 K), the necessary heat, given a specific heat of concrete of 0.15 is:
90,000,000,000 g * 720 degrees * 0.15 = 9,720,000,000,000 calories
= 11,300,000 KWH.
If we assume that the water vaporization sink absorbed all available energy once temperatures reached water's boiling point, we can compute the size of the heat sink of thermodynamic expansion that was in play as temperatures rose from room temperature to 100 C, or from 300 K to 373 K:
2,000,000,000 g * 73 degrees * 0.24 = 35,040,000,000 calories
= 40,744 KWH
The associated sink of heating the suspended solids to this temperature would be:
90,000,000,000 g * 73 degrees * 0.15 = 985,500,000,000 calories
= 1,145,000 KWH.
4.2. The Water Vaporization Sink
At 100 C at sea-level, water expands by a factor of 1680 when converted to steam. Hence it is reasonable to expect that water in the building accounted for a significant part of the expansion. How much energy would be required to expand the volume of the cloud by the 3.41 ratio if water vaporization were entirely responsible for the expansion? Since water vaporization involves the introduction of volumes steam from comparatively negligible volumes of water, I assume that all the incremental volume was occupied by steam. The estimated 3.41 expansion ratio means that the incremental volume was:
200,000,000 feet^3 - 58,617,000 feet^3 = 141,383,000 feet^3
= 4,003,542,000 liters
Given the 1680 to 1 ratio between the volume steam and liquid water, 2,383,000 liters of water would have been required. The heat of vaporization of water is 540 calories/gram at 100 C. Therefore the heat energy required to produce the expansion is:
2,383,000,000 g * 540 = 1,286,820,000,000 calories
= 1,496,000 KWH
Was there enough water in the building for this sink to be anywhere near this large? That is a matter of great uncertainty. Even well-cured concrete has a significant moisture content. Assuming that the estimated 90,000 tons of concrete in the tower was 1 percent water by weight, that would have provided 900 tons of water or about 900,000 liters -- well short of the 2,383,000 liter estimate above. However, there is a large amount of uncertainty in the water content of the concrete, which, like the rest of the remains of the disaster, was apparently disposed of with little or no examination. Moreover there were other sources of water in the building, such as the plumbing system, which could have accounted for tens of thousands of liters, and, gruesomely, people. The thousand victims never identified could have accounted for about 30,000 liters of water.
4.3. Which Energy Sink Was Dominant?
Both thermodynamic expansion and water vaporization have the capacity to produce vast expansion in gas volume given sufficient heat. Two major difference in the features of these sinks may help in understanding the relative contributions of each. First, thermodynamic expansion to the observed ratio requires very high temperatures, whereas vaporization-driven expansion occurs at a constant temperature of 100 C. Second, vaporization-driven expansion would be limited by the available supply of water.
If all the expansion was due to thermodynamic expansion, it would require that the dust cloud was heated to an average temperature of about 1020 K. Certainly the temperatures of the cloud near the ground were no-where near that high. Eyewitness reports show that the cloud's ground-level temperatures more than a few hundred feet away from its center were humanly survivable. Most of these reports are from the South Tower collapse, and it is unclear how similar the dust cloud temperatures following the two collapses were. Although serious fires raged in Buildings 4, 5, and 6, other nearby buildings that suffered extensive window breakage from the tower collapses, such as the Banker's Trust Building, and Word Financial Center Buildings 1, 2, and 3, did not experience fires. Digital photographs and videos show a bright afterglow with a locus near the center of the cloud, commencing around 17 seconds after the onset of the North Tower's collapse. Once the afterglow started, the cloud developed large upwelling columns towering to over 600 feet, and the previously gray cloud appeared to glow with a reddish hue. This suggests that at lest the upper and central regions of the North Tower cloud reached very high temperatures, but the evidence is insufficient to draw even general quantitative conclusions about the ranges and distributions of temperatures.
If enough water was present for vaporization to drive most of the expansion, temperatures in much of the cloud would have remained around 100 C until most of the water had vaporized. Thermodynamic expansion would occur in regions with liquid phase water until 100 C was reached, and again after the water was vaporized.
To the extent that thermodynamic expansion was the dominant factor driving the expansion, the distribution of concrete dust in the cloud, and its relationship to the temperature distribution in the cloud, would greatly affect the total energy requirements. Less energy would be required if the hotter portions of the cloud had a lower density of dust. The density was probably greater toward the central portions of the cloud, which also seem to have experienced the most heating. On the other hand, much of the dust may have settled out by the 30 second mark. The violent churning of the cloud, and the opaque appearance of its frontier, suggest that most of the dust had not settled that early.
Summary
The dominant energy source assumed to be in play during the leveling of each of the Twin Towers was the gravitational energy due to their elevated mass. The energy sinks included the thorough pulverization of each tower's concrete, the vaporization of water, and the heating of air and suspended concrete dust in the ensuing dust cloud. Estimates for these energies are:
energy, KWH source or sink
+ 111,000 falling of mass (1.97e11 g falling average of 207 m)
- 135,000 crushing of concrete (9e10 g to 60 micron powder)
ignoring water vaporization
- 400,000 heating of gasses (2e9 g air from 300 to 1020 K)
- 11,300,000 heating of suspended concrete (9e10 g from 300 to 1020 K)
assuming water vaporization sink was not supply-limited
- 1,496,000 vaporization of water (2.38e9 g water)
- 41,000 heating of gasses (2e9 g air from 300 to 373 K)
- 1,145,000 heating of suspended concrete (9e10 g from 300 to 373 K)
The imbalance between sources and sinks is striking, no matter the relative shares of the thermodynamic and water vaporization sinks in accounting for the expansion. Moreover, it is very difficult to imagine how the gravitational energy released by falling mass could have contributed much to any of the sinks, since the vast majority of the tower's mass landed outside its footprint. The quantity for the crushing of concrete appears to be conservative since some reports indicate the average particle size was closer to 10 microns than 60 microns. The quantity for the heating of suspended concrete has a large amount of uncertainty, but the energy imbalances remain huge even when it is ignored entirely. All of these energy sink estimates are conservative in several respects.
* They are based on an estimate of dust cloud volume at a time long before the cloud stopped growing.
* They use a liberal estimate of the contribution of mixing to the volume.
* They ignore thermal losses due to radiation.
* They ignore the resistance to expansion due to the inertia of the suspended materials, and energy requirements to overcome it.
Conclusion
The amount of energy required to expand the North Tower's dust cloud was many times the entire potential energy of the tower's elevated mass due to gravity. The over 10-fold disparity between the most conservative estimate and the gravitational energy is not easily dismissed as reflecting uncertainties in quantitative assessments.
The official explanation that the Twin Tower collapses were gravity-driven events appears insufficient to account for the documented energy flows.
(emphasis mine of the Conclusion)
QUOTE (Andrew+)
He basically came out with the same figures I did
Please show, first, where you have ever acknowledged that:
1. There was enough time during the collapse of each tower for an object in free fall to fall MORE THAN TWICE THEIR HEIGHTS. I have demonstrated this repeatedly, using the simple, Newtonian physics approximations taught in the Sophomore year (10th grade- usually, the student's age is 15 or 16 at this point) at most US high schools.
2. You stated that "...the floors above would be hotter because of heat rising..." totally ignoring both the fact that it is not HEAT that rises, but HOT AIR, and that concrete is a very bad conductor of heat, which would tend to concentrate the heat at the ceiling of the floor where the fire was, not transmit it by any means up to the next floor.
3. You claimed, "If the beams/trusses had just softened, there would not have been a large pyroclastic flow of dust at the time of collapse." First of all, anyone with ANY knowledge of what a pyroclastic flow is would immediately pounce on this and ask what beams softening or not softening has to do with whether there was a pyroclastic flow or not. However, instead, I elected to concentrate on this statement: "Creating a cloud of dust like this requires a great deal of energy. The potential energy of floors collapsing being converted into kinetic energy during the fall would not be sufficient to produce as large a cloud of fine powdered dust as was seen on the day" which you offered as if it supported the above complete misunderstanding of basic physics. Since this second statement, rather than being a complete non-sequitur, indeed involved basic physics, and you had asked that responses address errors in basic physics in your statements, I elected to respond to the second part, by proving that it was erroneous; and I did so, extremely effectively, so effectively that you have absolutely no response and in fact will never have one, because you were just plain wrong.
I think that that is sufficient to establish that, in fact, I DID NOT "come out with the same figures" you did, and that your figures are, in fact, WRONG. So this statement: "He basically came out with the same figures I did" is a LIE. A pure, bare-faced, LIE for personal gain, completely without any vestige of honesty or personal integrity, and totally reprehensible. You, sir, are DESPICABLE, and a LIAR, and a COWARD.
Please feel free to make whatever comments you like, but also be prepared to be embarrassed significantly if you both cannot back up your statements and then lie about the matter.
1. There was enough time during the collapse of each tower for an object in free fall to fall MORE THAN TWICE THEIR HEIGHTS. I have demonstrated this repeatedly, using the simple, Newtonian physics approximations taught in the Sophomore year (10th grade- usually, the student's age is 15 or 16 at this point) at most US high schools.
2. You stated that "...the floors above would be hotter because of heat rising..." totally ignoring both the fact that it is not HEAT that rises, but HOT AIR, and that concrete is a very bad conductor of heat, which would tend to concentrate the heat at the ceiling of the floor where the fire was, not transmit it by any means up to the next floor.
3. You claimed, "If the beams/trusses had just softened, there would not have been a large pyroclastic flow of dust at the time of collapse." First of all, anyone with ANY knowledge of what a pyroclastic flow is would immediately pounce on this and ask what beams softening or not softening has to do with whether there was a pyroclastic flow or not. However, instead, I elected to concentrate on this statement: "Creating a cloud of dust like this requires a great deal of energy. The potential energy of floors collapsing being converted into kinetic energy during the fall would not be sufficient to produce as large a cloud of fine powdered dust as was seen on the day" which you offered as if it supported the above complete misunderstanding of basic physics. Since this second statement, rather than being a complete non-sequitur, indeed involved basic physics, and you had asked that responses address errors in basic physics in your statements, I elected to respond to the second part, by proving that it was erroneous; and I did so, extremely effectively, so effectively that you have absolutely no response and in fact will never have one, because you were just plain wrong.
I think that that is sufficient to establish that, in fact, I DID NOT "come out with the same figures" you did, and that your figures are, in fact, WRONG. So this statement: "He basically came out with the same figures I did" is a LIE. A pure, bare-faced, LIE for personal gain, completely without any vestige of honesty or personal integrity, and totally reprehensible. You, sir, are DESPICABLE, and a LIAR, and a COWARD.
Please feel free to make whatever comments you like, but also be prepared to be embarrassed significantly if you both cannot back up your statements and then lie about the matter.
Hello Jon Pratt.
Friendly word of advice: If you are going into the business of making snide remarks, consider changing your name, then perhaps you might get away with it...you know, Pratt by name, prat.....
And like your VI mates, I suppose you've never heard of 'collateral damage' at disaster sites. Let's see, two whopping great skyscrapers are levelled under EXTREMELY UNPREDICTABLE conditions accompanied by explosive-decompression and hot-gas pyroclastic and heat-shock clouds/fronts (your other VI friends have admitted as much) and MASSIVE CHUNKS OF DEBRIS falling all around, and 'burning hunks of building/plane/engines 'catapulted' by 'popping' strained-steel framework under tension suddenly released, shooting same at high velocities into/ontop of any thing/building in the vicinity and causing structural/fire damage. Hmmmm....no; according to the prat, you could take a picnic basket and have a leisurely safe untroubled breakfast on any of the surrounding buildings and come out without a scratch. Ahhh, the optimism of idiocy/prathood.
Do yourself a favour mate, get at least two brain cells working together before you open your mouth...you know what they say, it's better to say nothing and be THOUGHT a fool, than to speak and REMOVE ALL DOUBT.
Get your nose into something educational and leave the conspiracies alone until you can PROVE something...and even THEN, be mindful of your name and so speak POLITELY as well as INTELLIGENTLY...sarcasm doesn't become your VI status.
RealityCheck.
.
PS:REGARDING 'FREE-FALL-LIKE' COLLAPSE. The advance air-pressurisation-waves created each time a floor gave way and joined the others would have 'dislodged' the floors ahead so that actually the floors fell in an advance wave even before the concertina-ed 'piston' of upper floors got anywhere near the much lower ones. Hence, once the upper floors began the pressurisation of the 'tube' structure, the floor-by-floor collapse was practically an advance-wave of collapses happening almost all at once, rather than just a progressive floor-to-floor 'contact' collapse over a longer period...hence the little 'resistence' to falling throughout the collapse (try an experiment with numerous washers placed at intervals along a tube; then see if the lower washers aren't moved along by air pressure even before the advancing piston and upper washers get anywhere near touching them). RC.
Friendly word of advice: If you are going into the business of making snide remarks, consider changing your name, then perhaps you might get away with it...you know, Pratt by name, prat.....
And like your VI mates, I suppose you've never heard of 'collateral damage' at disaster sites. Let's see, two whopping great skyscrapers are levelled under EXTREMELY UNPREDICTABLE conditions accompanied by explosive-decompression and hot-gas pyroclastic and heat-shock clouds/fronts (your other VI friends have admitted as much) and MASSIVE CHUNKS OF DEBRIS falling all around, and 'burning hunks of building/plane/engines 'catapulted' by 'popping' strained-steel framework under tension suddenly released, shooting same at high velocities into/ontop of any thing/building in the vicinity and causing structural/fire damage. Hmmmm....no; according to the prat, you could take a picnic basket and have a leisurely safe untroubled breakfast on any of the surrounding buildings and come out without a scratch. Ahhh, the optimism of idiocy/prathood.
Do yourself a favour mate, get at least two brain cells working together before you open your mouth...you know what they say, it's better to say nothing and be THOUGHT a fool, than to speak and REMOVE ALL DOUBT.
Get your nose into something educational and leave the conspiracies alone until you can PROVE something...and even THEN, be mindful of your name and so speak POLITELY as well as INTELLIGENTLY...sarcasm doesn't become your VI status.
RealityCheck.
.
PS:REGARDING 'FREE-FALL-LIKE' COLLAPSE. The advance air-pressurisation-waves created each time a floor gave way and joined the others would have 'dislodged' the floors ahead so that actually the floors fell in an advance wave even before the concertina-ed 'piston' of upper floors got anywhere near the much lower ones. Hence, once the upper floors began the pressurisation of the 'tube' structure, the floor-by-floor collapse was practically an advance-wave of collapses happening almost all at once, rather than just a progressive floor-to-floor 'contact' collapse over a longer period...hence the little 'resistence' to falling throughout the collapse (try an experiment with numerous washers placed at intervals along a tube; then see if the lower washers aren't moved along by air pressure even before the advancing piston and upper washers get anywhere near touching them). RC.
Guys, (you know who)
Exchanging ideas and knowledge, with a bit of light hearted and friendly banter is one thing, and something that seems to be a common theme on all the other threads...
...but being arrogant, aggressive, rude and now abusive is totally unnecessary and uncalled for...
...why?
Whats wrong?
We are expressing our opinions here, you have no reason to attack us...
...I wonder why you do?
Bleat as much as you like, as Andrew Johnson said "It wont change the laws of Physics"
Exchanging ideas and knowledge, with a bit of light hearted and friendly banter is one thing, and something that seems to be a common theme on all the other threads...
...but being arrogant, aggressive, rude and now abusive is totally unnecessary and uncalled for...
...why?
Whats wrong?
We are expressing our opinions here, you have no reason to attack us...
...I wonder why you do?
Bleat as much as you like, as Andrew Johnson said "It wont change the laws of Physics"
Hello London to SF.
...and it certainly won't stop VIs coming in to SCIENCE FORUMS and insulting the intelligence of everyone there. Nothing in the rules says one and all must suffer without demur such wilful stupidity, dishonesty, cowardice, ignorance and downright loony posts as all you VIs have 'presented' here for supposed 'scientific' debate which YOU shy away from by evading the questions begged by your 'evidence'. And then YOU have the temerity to lecture us on OUR behaviour. True VI disconnection from reality if ever there was. Keep your advice and go, if the facts are inconvenient to whatever it is you're trying to do...because whatever it is, it's certainly NOT 'science' but conspiracy-mongering for those who have books to sell to gullible VIs like you and your "anonymous guest' aliases. Puhleeese! You are not expressing your opinions here...you are ACCUSING PEOPLE OF CRIMES, AND DOING SO WITHOUT THE LEAST CREDIBLE SHRED OF EVIDENCE. Gullible sickos, false accusers, and VIs...what a 'dream team' of 'scientific' debaters you have there, mate! Who needs YOUR advice, considering the competency/trustworthiness level of the source.
RealityCheck.
.
...and it certainly won't stop VIs coming in to SCIENCE FORUMS and insulting the intelligence of everyone there. Nothing in the rules says one and all must suffer without demur such wilful stupidity, dishonesty, cowardice, ignorance and downright loony posts as all you VIs have 'presented' here for supposed 'scientific' debate which YOU shy away from by evading the questions begged by your 'evidence'. And then YOU have the temerity to lecture us on OUR behaviour. True VI disconnection from reality if ever there was. Keep your advice and go, if the facts are inconvenient to whatever it is you're trying to do...because whatever it is, it's certainly NOT 'science' but conspiracy-mongering for those who have books to sell to gullible VIs like you and your "anonymous guest' aliases. Puhleeese! You are not expressing your opinions here...you are ACCUSING PEOPLE OF CRIMES, AND DOING SO WITHOUT THE LEAST CREDIBLE SHRED OF EVIDENCE. Gullible sickos, false accusers, and VIs...what a 'dream team' of 'scientific' debaters you have there, mate! Who needs YOUR advice, considering the competency/trustworthiness level of the source.
RealityCheck.
.
QUOTE ("RealityCheck"+)
you are ACCUSING PEOPLE OF CRIMES, AND DOING SO WITHOUT THE LEAST CREDIBLE SHRED OF EVIDENCE.
RealityCheck,
, I think you need one. there's an orgy of credible evidence pointing toward government complicity in 9/11, but when you're on your knees licking your master's boots you can't see it. Duh.
RealityCheck,
Sorry, forgot to type in my screen name
Schneibster,
Let us assume that your figures and interpretation of them is correct - 100% (and I am an incompetent liar who can not disginguish the various parts of my own anatomy). Can you please explain the following points of evidence, which are downloadable and have been referenced several times on this thread:
1) How qualified practicing firemen can have mistaken fires which weren't very bad for huge burning infernos.
2) Initial News reports of explosions.
3) Firemen's accounts of explosions.
4) William Rodriguez's accounts of large explosions in the basement.
All this evidence is documented and on record. Now, I have no problem at all with anyone and everyone calling me all the names in the world - it's absolutely fine by me - really it is. I'm just a nobody - honestly I am.
However, I have the utmost respect and am in awe of these firemen and William Rodriguez who risked and lost their lives on that terrible day. All their statements and evidence support that the idea of the jets alone causing the collapse is at best incomplete or at worst a total fabrication. (I happen to think the evidence supports the latter). Each and eveyone makes a choice about the validity of this evidence.
Let us assume that your figures and interpretation of them is correct - 100% (and I am an incompetent liar who can not disginguish the various parts of my own anatomy). Can you please explain the following points of evidence, which are downloadable and have been referenced several times on this thread:
1) How qualified practicing firemen can have mistaken fires which weren't very bad for huge burning infernos.
2) Initial News reports of explosions.
3) Firemen's accounts of explosions.
4) William Rodriguez's accounts of large explosions in the basement.
All this evidence is documented and on record. Now, I have no problem at all with anyone and everyone calling me all the names in the world - it's absolutely fine by me - really it is. I'm just a nobody - honestly I am.
However, I have the utmost respect and am in awe of these firemen and William Rodriguez who risked and lost their lives on that terrible day. All their statements and evidence support that the idea of the jets alone causing the collapse is at best incomplete or at worst a total fabrication. (I happen to think the evidence supports the latter). Each and eveyone makes a choice about the validity of this evidence.
Witness account is the least credible of all evidence. But I guess when logic fails and so does science and basic physics... you don't have a choice anymore because theres nothing left! For every witness you can find that supports your story I can find another one who doesn't. So, please if witness accounts are the only thing you have left, why not just admit your a clueless idiot - with nothing to back up your claims, so we can all get back to our daily lives.
QUOTE (a_ht+Oct 15 2005, 01:57 PM)
Witness account is the least credible of all evidence. But I guess when logic fails and so does science and basic physics... you don't have a choice anymore because theres nothing left! For every witness you can find that supports your story I can find another one who doesn't. So, please if witness accounts are the only thing you have left, why not just admit your a clueless idiot - with nothing to back up your claims, so we can all get back to our daily lives.

Ha, ha. Charade you are!!

Andrew,
Whether everyone makes their own judgements about evidence or not is not the issue here. The issue here is that you asked for a review of your "evidence" on the grounds of BASIC PHYSICS, and made assertions that directly contradict basic physical principles, like Newton's Laws of Motion and the Laws of Thermodynamics. When challenged on it, you MOVE THE GOALPOSTS to avoid acknowledging that you had not one single point that was not contaminated by an abysmal lack of understanding of the very basic physics you claimed to be asking for a review of your evidence with regard to.
You now want to discuss the rules of evidence, and the quality of testimentary evidence; has it occurred to you that a PHYSICS FORUM might perhaps just possibly not be the right place?
Meanwhile, your personal integrity is in question; I say, based on your actions so far, you have no personal integrity. We really need not go into the difference between gratuitous personal insults, and statements of fact supported by someone's obvious actions; it's clear for anyone who DOES have personal integrity to see. If and when the time comes that you acknowledge that you are completely PWNED and that what you have been saying with regard to basic physics has absolutely no relationship to reality, and you post on the PHYSICS FORUM in regard to further basic principles of physics looking for explanations of various phenomena, which, by the way, would not be OFF-TOPIC on the PHYSICS FORUM, I will make a decision on whether to respond substantively; but I have absolutely no intention of responding to off-topic requests to review testimentary evidence without regard to its PHYSICS content on the PHYSICS FORUM.
Whether everyone makes their own judgements about evidence or not is not the issue here. The issue here is that you asked for a review of your "evidence" on the grounds of BASIC PHYSICS, and made assertions that directly contradict basic physical principles, like Newton's Laws of Motion and the Laws of Thermodynamics. When challenged on it, you MOVE THE GOALPOSTS to avoid acknowledging that you had not one single point that was not contaminated by an abysmal lack of understanding of the very basic physics you claimed to be asking for a review of your evidence with regard to.
You now want to discuss the rules of evidence, and the quality of testimentary evidence; has it occurred to you that a PHYSICS FORUM might perhaps just possibly not be the right place?
Meanwhile, your personal integrity is in question; I say, based on your actions so far, you have no personal integrity. We really need not go into the difference between gratuitous personal insults, and statements of fact supported by someone's obvious actions; it's clear for anyone who DOES have personal integrity to see. If and when the time comes that you acknowledge that you are completely PWNED and that what you have been saying with regard to basic physics has absolutely no relationship to reality, and you post on the PHYSICS FORUM in regard to further basic principles of physics looking for explanations of various phenomena, which, by the way, would not be OFF-TOPIC on the PHYSICS FORUM, I will make a decision on whether to respond substantively; but I have absolutely no intention of responding to off-topic requests to review testimentary evidence without regard to its PHYSICS content on the PHYSICS FORUM.
Schneibster,
I fundamentally disagree with your 1st point - judgement of the evidence is the issue.
I agree with your later point - yes, the thread has departed from the Physics, this is true - but it is, for example to offer supporting evidence for that same Physics. I have repeated over and over the same points and so I have not replied to every single re-iteration of the same issues that yourself and others have posted. From where I am sitting, your view appears to be this (least important point 1st):
1) I am intellectually dishonest (partly because of my workload), I am a liar and I am wrong etc
2) There is another reason for freefall (close-to-freefall collapse) - some type of pancake collapse
3) Most or all of the other supporting evidence of explosions is basically invalid.
4) The firemen who reported explosions and other firemen who reported fires were not too bad were either lying, mistaken or their evidence is manufactured.
5) The other eyewitness and initial news reports of explosions at the scene are all mistakes, lies or are manufactured evidence.
6) Video and photos of explosions coming out of the sides of the towers have all either been incorrectly interpreted or have been faked etc
7) William Rodriguez (whom I had the honour of hearing in London on 27th May 2005) who was originally hailed as a national hero for saving people from the towers, before being injured himself, was lying or mistaken when he said he helped someone out of the basement area who had been very badly burned by an explosion which happened there. http://www.911forthetruth.com/pages/Rodriguez.htm
Of course, I am making a number of non-physics points here, but clearly, this is of little consequence, as I am, according to you and others here, intellectually dishonest. This gives me the freedom to make the points above, does it not? And in any case, if I am intellectually dishonest, how would you ever trust any thoughts I had to offer you anyway. Would I not be wasting my time if I did respond to every one of your points in minute detail - everything I said would be immediately suspect... so what is the point in me making more points like the ones above?
Thanks for reading.
I fundamentally disagree with your 1st point - judgement of the evidence is the issue.
I agree with your later point - yes, the thread has departed from the Physics, this is true - but it is, for example to offer supporting evidence for that same Physics. I have repeated over and over the same points and so I have not replied to every single re-iteration of the same issues that yourself and others have posted. From where I am sitting, your view appears to be this (least important point 1st):
1) I am intellectually dishonest (partly because of my workload), I am a liar and I am wrong etc
2) There is another reason for freefall (close-to-freefall collapse) - some type of pancake collapse
3) Most or all of the other supporting evidence of explosions is basically invalid.
4) The firemen who reported explosions and other firemen who reported fires were not too bad were either lying, mistaken or their evidence is manufactured.
5) The other eyewitness and initial news reports of explosions at the scene are all mistakes, lies or are manufactured evidence.
6) Video and photos of explosions coming out of the sides of the towers have all either been incorrectly interpreted or have been faked etc
7) William Rodriguez (whom I had the honour of hearing in London on 27th May 2005) who was originally hailed as a national hero for saving people from the towers, before being injured himself, was lying or mistaken when he said he helped someone out of the basement area who had been very badly burned by an explosion which happened there. http://www.911forthetruth.com/pages/Rodriguez.htm
Of course, I am making a number of non-physics points here, but clearly, this is of little consequence, as I am, according to you and others here, intellectually dishonest. This gives me the freedom to make the points above, does it not? And in any case, if I am intellectually dishonest, how would you ever trust any thoughts I had to offer you anyway. Would I not be wasting my time if I did respond to every one of your points in minute detail - everything I said would be immediately suspect... so what is the point in me making more points like the ones above?
Thanks for reading.
Reality Check, if you were prepared to check reality, or read some of the previous posts, you would soon realise that the reality is that your post on the construction of the towers was as far from the reality as is possible. You post this -
"(1) A steel frame skyscraper which, UNLIKE ALL PREVIOUS SKYSCRAPERS, used ONLY an outer ‘SHELL’ of steel and glass to essentially produce a ‘square tube’ from whose ‘walls’ were suspended floor slabs fixed at their edges by welds/rivets etc. to that ‘exo-skeleton’ framework;
(2) Those floor slabs, UNLIKE PREVIOUS SKYSCRAPERS, had LITTLE or NO CONTIGUOUS CENTRAL SUPPORT FRAMEWORK/CONCRETE-COLUMNS running from foundations to roof;"
Which is the COMPLETE OPPOSITE OF THE REALITY
The central core consisted of 47 steel box girders which, through the hat truss atop the buildings, WAS THE MAIN SUPPORT FOR THE BUILDINGS. This enormously strong support would, or should have, remained standing straight up if the floors had collapsed.
Quote -
"Essentially, each tower was a box within a box, joined by horizontal trusses at each floor. -- The inner box at the core of each tower measured about 135 feet by 85 feet (41x26 m). Its 47 heavy steel columns surrounded a large open area housing elevators, stairwells and restrooms.
This design had two major advantages. First of all, it gave the building remarkable stability. In addition to shouldering some of the vertical load (the weight of the building), the outer steel columns supported all of the horizontal forces acting on the tower (the force of the wind). This meant the inner support structure was completely dedicated to the huge vertical loads. "
http://science.howstuffworks.com/wtc2.htm
Reality seems of little importance to some in this debate, or is it so important that some will go to any lengths to obscure it.
"(1) A steel frame skyscraper which, UNLIKE ALL PREVIOUS SKYSCRAPERS, used ONLY an outer ‘SHELL’ of steel and glass to essentially produce a ‘square tube’ from whose ‘walls’ were suspended floor slabs fixed at their edges by welds/rivets etc. to that ‘exo-skeleton’ framework;
(2) Those floor slabs, UNLIKE PREVIOUS SKYSCRAPERS, had LITTLE or NO CONTIGUOUS CENTRAL SUPPORT FRAMEWORK/CONCRETE-COLUMNS running from foundations to roof;"
Which is the COMPLETE OPPOSITE OF THE REALITY
The central core consisted of 47 steel box girders which, through the hat truss atop the buildings, WAS THE MAIN SUPPORT FOR THE BUILDINGS. This enormously strong support would, or should have, remained standing straight up if the floors had collapsed.
Quote -
"Essentially, each tower was a box within a box, joined by horizontal trusses at each floor. -- The inner box at the core of each tower measured about 135 feet by 85 feet (41x26 m). Its 47 heavy steel columns surrounded a large open area housing elevators, stairwells and restrooms.
This design had two major advantages. First of all, it gave the building remarkable stability. In addition to shouldering some of the vertical load (the weight of the building), the outer steel columns supported all of the horizontal forces acting on the tower (the force of the wind). This meant the inner support structure was completely dedicated to the huge vertical loads. "
http://science.howstuffworks.com/wtc2.htm
Reality seems of little importance to some in this debate, or is it so important that some will go to any lengths to obscure it.
QUOTE (Andrew+)
I fundamentally disagree with your 1st point - judgement of the evidence is the issue.
And if that were the entire point, you would long ago have admitted that you know nothing of the physics involved. That obviously is contrary to your agenda. Again, you lack the personal integrity to admit that you got what you asked for (analysis from the point of view of basic physics) and it was not to your taste.
This is a physics forum, and your "evidence" does not stack up when analyzed using basic physics. Those are the facts, and until you acknowledge them, your arguments are meaningless. I will answer you only on this basis until you acknowledge it; your second (or is this the third or perhaps even the fourth?) attempt to shift the goalposts is noted as further evidence of your inability to admit that you were wrong and move on.
This is a physics forum, and your "evidence" does not stack up when analyzed using basic physics. Those are the facts, and until you acknowledge them, your arguments are meaningless. I will answer you only on this basis until you acknowledge it; your second (or is this the third or perhaps even the fourth?) attempt to shift the goalposts is noted as further evidence of your inability to admit that you were wrong and move on.
QUOTE
Reality Check, if you were prepared to check reality, or read some of the previous posts, you would soon realise that the reality is that your post on the construction of the towers was as far from the reality as is possible. You post this -
"(1) A steel frame skyscraper which, UNLIKE ALL PREVIOUS SKYSCRAPERS, used ONLY an outer ‘SHELL’ of steel and glass to essentially produce a ‘square tube’ from whose ‘walls’ were suspended floor slabs fixed at their edges by welds/rivets etc. to that ‘exo-skeleton’ framework;
(2) Those floor slabs, UNLIKE PREVIOUS SKYSCRAPERS, had LITTLE or NO CONTIGUOUS CENTRAL SUPPORT FRAMEWORK/CONCRETE-COLUMNS running from foundations to roof;"
Which is the COMPLETE OPPOSITE OF THE REALITY
"(1) A steel frame skyscraper which, UNLIKE ALL PREVIOUS SKYSCRAPERS, used ONLY an outer ‘SHELL’ of steel and glass to essentially produce a ‘square tube’ from whose ‘walls’ were suspended floor slabs fixed at their edges by welds/rivets etc. to that ‘exo-skeleton’ framework;
(2) Those floor slabs, UNLIKE PREVIOUS SKYSCRAPERS, had LITTLE or NO CONTIGUOUS CENTRAL SUPPORT FRAMEWORK/CONCRETE-COLUMNS running from foundations to roof;"
Which is the COMPLETE OPPOSITE OF THE REALITY
Brian, you forgot the picture!

QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Reality Check, if you were prepared to check reality, or read some of the previous posts, you would soon realise that the reality is that your post on the construction of the towers was as far from the reality as is possible. You post this - "(1) A steel frame skyscraper which, UNLIKE ALL PREVIOUS SKYSCRAPERS, used ONLY an outer ‘SHELL’ of steel and glass to essentially produce a ‘square tube’ from whose ‘walls’ were suspended floor slabs fixed at their edges by welds/rivets etc. to that ‘exo-skeleton’ framework; (2) Those floor slabs, UNLIKE PREVIOUS SKYSCRAPERS, had LITTLE or NO CONTIGUOUS CENTRAL SUPPORT FRAMEWORK/CONCRETE-COLUMNS running from foundations to roof;" Which is the COMPLETE OPPOSITE OF THE REALITY |
Brian, you forgot the picture!

You can listen to scientist Jim Hoffman thoroughly debunk the FEMA (and other) Fairy Tale at:
http://kpfa.org/archives/index.php?arch=4344&page=3&type=all
http://kpfa.org/archives/index.php?arch=5608&page=3&type=all
He does this scientifically, giving quantitative figures where that is plausible and/or available. He also discusses qualitative issues scientifically, e.g., the fact that as the top of the South Tower began to keel over, it obviously acquired angular momentum and would have continued rotating if it had remained a solid body.
Speaking of which, from http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/c...shattering.html
QUOTE
The Twin Towers' Frames Disintegrated Before Falling
A movie taken from the east gives one of the most complete records of the South Tower collapse. The motion of the top revealed by the movie has some very strange features. At first the motion consists of a tipping of the approximately 30 stories above the impact zone as a unit, about a fulcrum in or around the impact zone. The tipping motion accelerates for about 2.5 seconds. Then, at about the time the first large ejections of dust start at the impact zone, the motion of the top changes: It begins to fall precipitously, and its rotation (imparted by the tipping) rapidly decelerates and virtually ceases after a second.
The rapid downward acceleration indicates that the fulcrum has been destroyed. This is difficult to reconcile with a gravity-driven collapse. Since the top had already tipped about 15 degrees, the downward force on the building's structure below the fulcrum was already decreasing. One would expect the tipping to continue, eventually resulting in the top falling like a tree.
Disappearing Angular Momentum
The deceleration of the top's rotation is even more discrediting to the idea of a gravity-driven collapse, which cannot explain the documented changes in angular momentum. Conservation of angular momentum is the tendency of a rotating solid object to continue rotating at the same rate in the absence of torque. Initially the block consisting of the top 30 stories of the tower acted as a solid object, and rotated about a fulcrum near the impact zone. Although the fulcrum was the axis of rotation, the block had two types of momentum: the angular momentum of the block around its center of gravity, and the linear momentum of its center of gravity tilting away from the tower's vertical axis. When the portion of the building below the collapse zone disintegrated, the block would preserve its angular momentum by continuing to rotate at the same rate (but the acceleration of the rotation would cease due to the removal of the torque that was being applied by intact columns at the fulcrum). But in reality, the rotation of the block rapidly decelerated as the downward plunge began. Once the fall started, any resistance it encountered from parts of the building would have imparted torque on the block in the same direction as the original fulcrum, and would have accelerated its rotation.
Given the apparent absence of any torque to counter the rotation of the block, the slowing of its rotation can only be explained by the breakup of most of the block, which would have destroyed its moment of inertia.

This photograph shows the top of the South Tower disintegrating as it has only just begun to fall. Note the curves in the edges of the walls above the zone of collapse.
There is clear visual evidence that the structural frames of many stories above the impact zones in both towers were shattered before the tops had fallen significant distances. The evidence is particularly strong in the case of the South Tower.
(emphasis mine in the quote just below the picture)
QUOTE
Again, you lack the personal integrity to admit that you got what you asked for (analysis from the point of view of basic physics) and it was not to your taste.
I beg your pardon. I have indeed used physics to show that the FEMA Fairy Tale version of collapse is impossible. Nobody has even attempted to challenge my post quantitatively, though there was one suggestion (I think it was serious, though I'm not entirely sure) by RealityCheck who suggested that I add in the heat energy released by the people inside the plane when their bodies burned, as well as the heat produced by "combustible aluminum" and other metals. If you or anybody else can come up with an energy budget that gives a hope and a prayer of showing that the FEMA Fairy Tale is plausible, please post it now.
I've also provided a link to Hoffman's paper, that shows that the energy needed to drive the expansion of the dust cloud produced by the collapse of WTC1 was conservatively 10x the dominant energy source. (He completely ignored the energy sink represented by the need to heat the steel sufficiently to weaken it to the point of collapse. Obviously, he didn't need to consider it.)
If you're going to attack somebody's integrity by stating a falsehood, I don't think we should take you too seriously.....
I'd appreciate it if others (pro or con) would go over his paper his paper to double check it.
Perhaps it was asking too much of you to click the link. Never fear, metamars is here! I will quote the article here, but if you want the whole enchilada, with the photo, hyperlinks, and tables, you really should click the
link.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Again, you lack the personal integrity to admit that you got what you asked for (analysis from the point of view of basic physics) and it was not to your taste. |
I beg your pardon. I have indeed used physics to show that the FEMA Fairy Tale version of collapse is impossible. Nobody has even attempted to challenge my post quantitatively, though there was one suggestion (I think it was serious, though I'm not entirely sure) by RealityCheck who suggested that I add in the heat energy released by the people inside the plane when their bodies burned, as well as the heat produced by "combustible aluminum" and other metals. If you or anybody else can come up with an energy budget that gives a hope and a prayer of showing that the FEMA Fairy Tale is plausible, please post it now.
I've also provided a link to Hoffman's paper, that shows that the energy needed to drive the expansion of the dust cloud produced by the collapse of WTC1 was conservatively 10x the dominant energy source. (He completely ignored the energy sink represented by the need to heat the steel sufficiently to weaken it to the point of collapse. Obviously, he didn't need to consider it.)
If you're going to attack somebody's integrity by stating a falsehood, I don't think we should take you too seriously.....
I'd appreciate it if others (pro or con) would go over his paper his paper to double check it.
Perhaps it was asking too much of you to click the link. Never fear, metamars is here! I will quote the article here, but if you want the whole enchilada, with the photo, hyperlinks, and tables, you really should click the
link.
The North Tower's Dust Cloud
Analysis of Energy Requirements for the Expansion of the Dust Cloud Following the Collapse of 1 World Trade Center
by Jim Hoffman
October 16, 2003
[Version 3]
On September 11th, Both of the Twin Towers disintegrated into vast clouds of concrete and other materials, which blanketed Lower Manhattan. This paper shows that the energy required to produce the expansion of the dust cloud observed immediately following the collapse of 1 World Trade Center (the North Tower) was much greater than the gravitational energy available from its elevated mass. It uses only basic physics.
Introduction
Vast amounts of energy were released during the collapse of each of the Twin Towers in Lower Manhattan on September 11th, 2001. The accepted source of this energy was the gravitational potential energy of the towers, which was far greater than the energy released by the fires that preceded the collapses. The magnitude of that source cannot be determined with much precision thanks to the secrecy surrounding details of the towers' construction. However, FEMA's Building Performance Assessment Report gives an estimate: "Construction of WTC 1 resulted in the storage of more than 4 x 10^11 joules of potential energy over the 1,368-foot height of the structure." That is equal to about 111,000 KWH (kilowatt hours) per tower.
Of the many identifiable energy sinks in the collapses, one of the only ones that has been subjected to quantitative analysis is the thorough pulverization of the concrete in the towers. It is well documented that nearly all of the non-metallic constituents of the towers were pulverized into fine powder. The largest of these constituents by weight was the concrete that constituted the floor slabs of the towers. Jerry Russell estimated that the amount of energy required to crush concrete to 60 micron powder is about 1.5 KWH/ton. (See http://www.911-strike.com/powder.htm.) That paper incorrectly assumes there were 600,000 tons of concrete in each tower, but Russell later provided a more accurate estimate of 90,000 tons of concrete per tower, based on FEMA's description of the towers' construction. That estimate implies the energy sink of concrete pulverization was on the order of 135,000 KWH per tower, which is already larger than the energy source of gravitational energy. However, the size of this sink is critically dependent on the fineness of the concrete powder, and on mechanical characteristics of the lightweight concrete thought to have been used in the towers. Available statistics about particle sizes of the dust, such as the study by Paul J. Lioy, et al., characterize particle sizes of aggregate dust samples, not of its constituents, such as concrete, fiberglass, hydrocarbon soot, etc. Based on diverse evidence, 60 microns would appear to be a high estimate for average concrete particle size, suggesting 135,000 KWH is a conservative estimate for the magnitude of the sink.
A second energy sink, that has apparently been overlooked, was many times the magnitude of the gravitational energy: the energy needed to expand the dust clouds to several times the volume of each tower within 30 seconds of the onset of their collapses. Note that the contents of the dust clouds had to come from building constituents -- gases and materials inside of or intrinsic to the building -- modulo any mixing with outside air. Given that the Twin Towers' dust clouds behaved like pyroclastic flows, with distinct boundaries and rapidly expanding frontiers (averaging perhaps 35 feet/second on the ground for the first 30 seconds), it is doubtful that mixing with ambient air accounted for a significant fraction of their volume. Therefore the dust clouds' expansion must have been primarily due to an expansion of building constituents. Possible sources of expansion include:
* thermodynamic expansion of gases
* vaporization of liquids and solids
* chemical reactions resulting in a net increase in gaseous phase molecules
The evidence does not support the idea that chemical reactions in the dust cloud liberated vast quantities of gases. That leaves increases in gas temperatures and vaporization of solids and liquids, primarily water, to drive the expansion.
How much heat energy was involved in expanding the dust clouds? To calculate the energy we need to answer three questions:
1. What was the volume of the dust clouds from a collapse at some time soon after it started (before the clouds began to diffuse)?
2. How did the mixing of the dust cloud with ambient air contribute to its size, and how can this be factored out to obtain the volume occupied by gases and suspended materials originally inside the building?
3. What is the ratio of that volume to the volume of the intact building?
4. How much heat energy was required to produce that ratio of expansion?
Since I have better photographs for North Tower dust, I did the calculation for it.
1. Quantifying Dust Cloud Volume
To answer question 1, I made estimates based on photographs taken at approximately 30 seconds after the onset of the collapse. The photo in Figure 1 appears to have been taken around 30 seconds after the initiation of the collapse of the North Tower. The fact that the spire is visible directly behind Building 7 indicates the photo was not taken later than the 30 seconds, since video records show that the spire started to collapse at the around 29 seconds. In this photograph, as in other ones taken around that time, the dust clouds still have distinct boundaries.
Figure 1. Photograph from Chapter 5 of FEMA's Building Performance Assessment Report.
I used landmarks in this photo to make several approximate measurements of the frontier of the dust cloud. The following table lists some of them. Measurements are in feet. The first column lists heights above the street, and the second lists distances from the vertical axis of the North Tower.
label height distance description
3 230 1011 west corner of 45 Park Place
5 228 729 top of south corner of building with stepped roof
6 204 658 east corner of Building 7, 30 stories below top
7 600 776 upwell towering over southeast end of Post Office
8 700 ? upwell slightly higher than the top of Building 7
11 190 870 top of west corner of 22 Cortland St tower
12 508 588 8 stories below top of face of WFC 3
13 498 517 3 stories below top of upper face of WFC 2
To approximate the volume I used a cylinder, coaxial with the vertical axis of the North Tower, with a radius of 800 feet, and a height of 200 feet. All the above reference points lie outside of this volume. Although the cylinder does not lie entirely within the dust cloud, there are large parts of the cloud outside of it, such as the 700 foot high upwelling column south of Building 7. The cylinder has a volume of:
pi * (800 feet)^2 * 200 feet = 402,000,000 feet^3.
I subtract about a quarter for volume occupied by other buildings, giving 300,000,000 feet^3.
2. Factoring out Mixing and Diffusion
To accurately answer question 2 would require detailed knowledge of the fluid dynamics involved. However it does appear that for at least a minute, the dust cloud behaved as a separate fluid from the ambient air, maintaining a distinct boundary. There are several pieces of evidence that support this:
* The WTC dust clouds inexorably advanced down streets at around 25 MPH. This is far faster than can be explained by mixing and diffusion.
* As the dust clouds advanced outward, features on their frontiers evolved relatively slowly compared to the clouds' rates of advance. This indicates that that clouds were expanding from within and that if surface turbulence was incorporating ambient air, it's contribution to expansion was minor.
* The top surface of the clouds looked like the surface of a boiling viscous liquid - churning but not mixing with the air above. Sinking portions of the clouds were replaced by clear air, not a mixture of the cloud and air.
* The dust clouds maintained distinct interfaces for well over a minute. Mixing and diffusion would have produced diffuse interfaces.
* There are reports of people being picked up and carried distances by the South Tower dust cloud, which felt solid. New York Daily News photographer David Handschuh recalled:
Instinctively I lifted the camera up, and something took over that probably saved my life. And that was [an urge] to run rather than take pictures. I got down to the end of the block and turned the corner when a wave-- a hot, solid, black wave of heat threw me down the block. It literally picked me up off my feet and I wound up about a block away.
Initially the dust clouds must have been much heavier than air, given the mass of the concrete they carried and the distances they transported it. As time went on the cloud became more diffuse, but all of the photographs that can be verified as being within the first minute show opaque clouds with distinct boundaries, indicating the dominant mode of growth was expansion, not mixing or diffusion. It seems reasonable to assume that mixing with ambient air did not account for a significant fraction of the expansion in the volume of the dust cloud by 30 seconds of the start of the North Tower collapse. Nevertheless, I reduce the estimate of the dust cloud volume of building origin to 200,000,000 feet^3, imagining that a third of the growth may have been due to assimilation of ambient air.
3. Computing the Expansion Ratio
The answer to question 3 is easy. The volume of a tower, with it's 207 foot width and 1368 foot height, is:
1368 feet * 207 feet * 207 feet = 58,617,432 feet^3.
So the ratio of the expanded gasses and suspended materials from the tower to the original volume of the tower is:
200,000,000 feet^3 / 58,617,432 feet^3 = 3.41.
4. Computing the Required Heat Input
Above I identified two energy sinks that could have driven expansion of the dust cloud: thermodynamic expansion of gases, and vaporization of liquids and solids. Since most constituents and contents of the building other than water would require very high temperatures to vaporize, I consider only the vaporization of water in evaluating the second sink.
It is clearly not possible to determine with any precision the relative contributions of these two sinks to the expansion of the dust cloud. If the cloud remained uniform in temperature and density for the first 30 seconds, then the expansion would consist of three distinct phases:
* The temperature would increase to 100 C, accompanied by thermodynamic expansion.
* The temperature would remain at 100 C until all of the water was vaporized.
* The temperature would increase above 100 C, again accompanied by thermodynamic expansion.
Since such uniform conditions were not present, I will first treat the two energy sinks separately, and will compute the energy requirements for each if it alone were responsible for the expansion.
4.1. The Thermodynamic Expansion Sink
The ideal gas law can be used to compute a lower bound for the amount of heat energy required to induce the observed expansion of the dust cloud, assuming that the expansion was entirely due to thermodynamic expansion. That law states that the product of the volume and pressure of a parcel of a gas is proportional to absolute temperature. It is written PV = nRT, where:
P = pressure
V = volume
T = absolute temperature
n = molar quantity
R = constant
Absolute temperature is expressed in Kelvin (K), which is Celsius + 273. Applied to the tower collapse, the equation holds that the ratio of volumes of gasses from the building before and after expansion is roughly equal to the ratio of temperatures of the gasses before and after heating. That allows us to compute the minimum energy needed to achieve a given expansion ratio knowing only the thermal mass of the gasses and their average temperature before the collapse.
I say that the ideal gas law allows the computation of only the lower bound of the required energy input due to the following four factors.
# The finite size of molecules leads to a slight departure from the ideal gas law wherein the expansion of a parcel of gas leads to a decrease in its temperature. This means that slightly more heat energy is needed to achieve a given expansion ratio than is predicted by the ideal gas law.
# The dust cloud at the time of the photograph used to estimate its volume had not finished expanding. Videos show that it continued to expand well after the 1 minute mark.
# The suspended dust in the cloud had many times the mass of the gasses. This increased the energy needed to expand the dust cloud since it takes energy to lift and accelerate mass.
# The suspended dust in the cloud had many times the thermal mass of the gasses. Increasing in temperature of the dust cloud to a level needed to induce the observed expansion entailed raising the temperature of the gasses and suspended solids by similar amounts. Since the solids had many times the thermal capacity of the gasses, this multiplied the energy requirements.
In this paper I examine only the fourth factor. Before considering its effect on energy requirements, I first consider the energy requirements of heating only the gasses in the clouds to the level needed to achieve the observed expansion.
According to the ideal gas law, expanding the gasses 3.4-fold requires raising their absolute temperature by the same ratio. If we assume the tower was at 300 degrees K before the collapse, then the target temperature would be 1020 degrees K, an increase of 720 degrees. Given a density of 36 g/foot^3 for air, the tower held about 2,000,000,000 g of air. Air has a specific heat of 0.24 (relative to 1 for water), so one calorie will raise one g of air 1 / 0.24 = 4.16 degrees. To raise 2,000,000,000 g by 720 degrees requires:
2,000,000,000 g * 720 degrees * 0.24 = 345,600,000,000 calories
= 399,500 KWH
To evaluate the energy requirements of the fourth factor, it is necessary to consider the composition of the dust cloud. The cloud was a suspension of fine particles of concrete and other solids in gasses consisting mostly of air. Since concrete was the dominant solid, I will ignore the others, which included glass, gypsum, asbestos, and various hydrocarbons. The small size of the particles, being in the 10-60 micron range, would assure rapid equalization between their temperature and that of the embedding air. Therefore any heat source acting to raise the temperature of the air would have to raise the temperature of the suspended concrete by the same amount. Assuming all 90,000,000,000 g of concrete was raised 720 degrees (300 K to 1020 K), the necessary heat, given a specific heat of concrete of 0.15 is:
90,000,000,000 g * 720 degrees * 0.15 = 9,720,000,000,000 calories
= 11,300,000 KWH.
If we assume that the water vaporization sink absorbed all available energy once temperatures reached water's boiling point, we can compute the size of the heat sink of thermodynamic expansion that was in play as temperatures rose from room temperature to 100 C, or from 300 K to 373 K:
2,000,000,000 g * 73 degrees * 0.24 = 35,040,000,000 calories
= 40,744 KWH
The associated sink of heating the suspended solids to this temperature would be:
90,000,000,000 g * 73 degrees * 0.15 = 985,500,000,000 calories
= 1,145,000 KWH.
4.2. The Water Vaporization Sink
At 100 C at sea-level, water expands by a factor of 1680 when converted to steam. Hence it is reasonable to expect that water in the building accounted for a significant part of the expansion. How much energy would be required to expand the volume of the cloud by the 3.41 ratio if water vaporization were entirely responsible for the expansion? Since water vaporization involves the introduction of volumes steam from comparatively negligible volumes of water, I assume that all the incremental volume was occupied by steam. The estimated 3.41 expansion ratio means that the incremental volume was:
200,000,000 feet^3 - 58,617,000 feet^3 = 141,383,000 feet^3
= 4,003,542,000 liters
Given the 1680 to 1 ratio between the volume steam and liquid water, 2,383,000 liters of water would have been required. The heat of vaporization of water is 540 calories/gram at 100 C. Therefore the heat energy required to produce the expansion is:
2,383,000,000 g * 540 = 1,286,820,000,000 calories
= 1,496,000 KWH
Was there enough water in the building for this sink to be anywhere near this large? That is a matter of great uncertainty. Even well-cured concrete has a significant moisture content. Assuming that the estimated 90,000 tons of concrete in the tower was 1 percent water by weight, that would have provided 900 tons of water or about 900,000 liters -- well short of the 2,383,000 liter estimate above. However, there is a large amount of uncertainty in the water content of the concrete, which, like the rest of the remains of the disaster, was apparently disposed of with little or no examination. Moreover there were other sources of water in the building, such as the plumbing system, which could have accounted for tens of thousands of liters, and, gruesomely, people. The thousand victims never identified could have accounted for about 30,000 liters of water.
4.3. Which Energy Sink Was Dominant?
Both thermodynamic expansion and water vaporization have the capacity to produce vast expansion in gas volume given sufficient heat. Two major difference in the features of these sinks may help in understanding the relative contributions of each. First, thermodynamic expansion to the observed ratio requires very high temperatures, whereas vaporization-driven expansion occurs at a constant temperature of 100 C. Second, vaporization-driven expansion would be limited by the available supply of water.
If all the expansion was due to thermodynamic expansion, it would require that the dust cloud was heated to an average temperature of about 1020 K. Certainly the temperatures of the cloud near the ground were no-where near that high. Eyewitness reports show that the cloud's ground-level temperatures more than a few hundred feet away from its center were humanly survivable. Most of these reports are from the South Tower collapse, and it is unclear how similar the dust cloud temperatures following the two collapses were. Although serious fires raged in Buildings 4, 5, and 6, other nearby buildings that suffered extensive window breakage from the tower collapses, such as the Banker's Trust Building, and Word Financial Center Buildings 1, 2, and 3, did not experience fires. Digital photographs and videos show a bright afterglow with a locus near the center of the cloud, commencing around 17 seconds after the onset of the North Tower's collapse. Once the afterglow started, the cloud developed large upwelling columns towering to over 600 feet, and the previously gray cloud appeared to glow with a reddish hue. This suggests that at lest the upper and central regions of the North Tower cloud reached very high temperatures, but the evidence is insufficient to draw even general quantitative conclusions about the ranges and distributions of temperatures.
If enough water was present for vaporization to drive most of the expansion, temperatures in much of the cloud would have remained around 100 C until most of the water had vaporized. Thermodynamic expansion would occur in regions with liquid phase water until 100 C was reached, and again after the water was vaporized.
To the extent that thermodynamic expansion was the dominant factor driving the expansion, the distribution of concrete dust in the cloud, and its relationship to the temperature distribution in the cloud, would greatly affect the total energy requirements. Less energy would be required if the hotter portions of the cloud had a lower density of dust. The density was probably greater toward the central portions of the cloud, which also seem to have experienced the most heating. On the other hand, much of the dust may have settled out by the 30 second mark. The violent churning of the cloud, and the opaque appearance of its frontier, suggest that most of the dust had not settled that early.
Summary
The dominant energy source assumed to be in play during the leveling of each of the Twin Towers was the gravitational energy due to their elevated mass. The energy sinks included the thorough pulverization of each tower's concrete, the vaporization of water, and the heating of air and suspended concrete dust in the ensuing dust cloud. Estimates for these energies are:
energy, KWH source or sink
+ 111,000 falling of mass (1.97e11 g falling average of 207 m)
- 135,000 crushing of concrete (9e10 g to 60 micron powder)
ignoring water vaporization
- 400,000 heating of gasses (2e9 g air from 300 to 1020 K)
- 11,300,000 heating of suspended concrete (9e10 g from 300 to 1020 K)
assuming water vaporization sink was not supply-limited
- 1,496,000 vaporization of water (2.38e9 g water)
- 41,000 heating of gasses (2e9 g air from 300 to 373 K)
- 1,145,000 heating of suspended concrete (9e10 g from 300 to 373 K)
The imbalance between sources and sinks is striking, no matter the relative shares of the thermodynamic and water vaporization sinks in accounting for the expansion. Moreover, it is very difficult to imagine how the gravitational energy released by falling mass could have contributed much to any of the sinks, since the vast majority of the tower's mass landed outside its footprint. The quantity for the crushing of concrete appears to be conservative since some reports indicate the average particle size was closer to 10 microns than 60 microns. The quantity for the heating of suspended concrete has a large amount of uncertainty, but the energy imbalances remain huge even when it is ignored entirely. All of these energy sink estimates are conservative in several respects.
* They are based on an estimate of dust cloud volume at a time long before the cloud stopped growing.
* They use a liberal estimate of the contribution of mixing to the volume.
* They ignore thermal losses due to radiation.
* They ignore the resistance to expansion due to the inertia of the suspended materials, and energy requirements to overcome it.
Conclusion
The amount of energy required to expand the North Tower's dust cloud was many times the entire potential energy of the tower's elevated mass due to gravity. The over 10-fold disparity between the most conservative estimate and the gravitational energy is not easily dismissed as reflecting uncertainties in quantitative assessments.
The official explanation that the Twin Tower collapses were gravity-driven events appears insufficient to account for the documented energy flows.
(emphasis mine of the Conclusion)
Thanks metamars, now that Reality Check has seen the reality with his own eyes should we expect him to re-examine the rest of his received knowledge, if that is what it was.
In physics what forces would explain the upwards trajectory of the material in the photo of the collapse below? I have seen the lame argument that downward pressure could force material horizontally - steel beams 70 metres, I think not - but it would be entertaining to hear this one.
<img src="http://www.plaguepuppy.net/public_html/collapse%20update/site1085.jpg">
In physics what forces would explain the upwards trajectory of the material in the photo of the collapse below? I have seen the lame argument that downward pressure could force material horizontally - steel beams 70 metres, I think not - but it would be entertaining to hear this one.
<img src="http://www.plaguepuppy.net/public_html/collapse%20update/site1085.jpg">
I salute andrew for his noble and mature tone. I´m not convinced by the official line either, but on the other hand I don´t believe "it was bush" or that "bush knew". The story about Bush seeing the first plane hit reeks of disinformation, and my personal hunch is that the reason he remained "in-situ" 20 minutes or so, was because at that moment in time, he wasn´t in the loop (yet). (more than can be said for some of the other principal characters in this dark saga)...
..................................................................... In an email account, Forbes reported that over the weekend of September 8-9, 2001, floors 50 and above of the South Tower experienced a
“power down,” meaning that all electrical current was cut off for about 36 hours. The
reason officially cited was that the electrical cables in the building were being upgraded.
Forbes was an information technology officer in charge of Fiduciary Trust’s computer
network; his attention was engaged by the power down because it fell to him to shut
down all the company’s computers and related systems before the power went out. After
the power down, he had to turn the computers back on again, and restore service on the
network. Because there was no electric power above the fiftieth floor, there were also no
security cameras and no security locks. There were however many outside engineering
personnel coming in and out of the tower at all hours during the weekend. Forbes lived in
Jersey City and could see the WTC towers from his home; when he saw the conflagration
on the morning of 9/11, he immediately related it to the events of the previous weekend.
(www.serendipity.li/wot/forbes01.htm)
SEISMIC EVIDENCE
The seismic effects of the collapse of the towers were observed and measured by
Columbia University’s Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory just up the Hudson River in
Palisades, New York. Here seismographs recorded two spikes reflecting two shock waves
in the earth on the morning of 9/11. The crucial fact is that these two spikes came just
before the collapse of the towers began. Specifically, Columbia scientists at the facility
registered a tremor of 2.1 on the Richter scale at 9:59:04 EDT, just before the beginning
of the collapse of the South Tower, and a 2.3 shock just as the North Tower began to
come down at 10:28:31 EDT. Both tremors were recorded before the vast majority of the
mass of the buildings hit the ground. Although they were not of earthquake proportions,
these were considerable shocks, about twenty times more potent than any previously
measured shock wave generated by a falling building. The 1993 WTC truck bomb had
produced no seismic effects at all – it had failed to register. At 5:20 local time on the
afternoon of 9/11, there was also a 0.6 tremor from the collapse of WTC 7, also at the
beginning, rather than the end, of this building’s collapse. Dr. Arthur Lerner-Lam, the
director of the Columbia Center for Hazards and Risk Research, commented that “during
the collapse, most of the energy of the falling debris was absorbed by the towers and
neighboring structures, converting them into rubble and dust or causing other damage –
but not causing significant ground shaking.” But Lerner-Lam declined to draw any
conclusions from the glaring anomaly represented by his data, which the 9/11
commission has also avoided. (Marrs 39 ff.)
After most of the pile was removed, experts found that there were pools of what appeared
to have been molten metal which had congealed on foundations of the buildings many
levels underground. Some steel appeared to have partially melted, other steel had
undergone alternations to its crystalline structure, and still other steel was full of holes,
like a Swiss cheese.
GIULIANI OBLITERATES THE WTC CRIME SCENE
Mayor Giuliani, by pedigree, was a creature of the highly repressive bureaucraticauthoritarian
apparatus which had consolidated itself in the Justice Department during the
Reagan years. He now performed yeoman service in defense of the 9/11 myth, a myth
which had its most obvious vulnerability in its most spectacular point: the unprecedented
and physically inexplicable collapse of the twin towers. Giuliani used the pretext that his
term was ending on December 31, 2001 to organize the massive obliteration of the WTC
as a crime scene. Parallel to this, Giuliani engineered a confrontation with the New York
firemen, both to divert public attention from his tampering with the evidence, and also to
neutralize the potential of the firemen, the one group which might have denounced the
presence of controlled demolition charges in WTC 1, 2, and 7, of which, as we have seen,
they were well aware.
During the crisis, Giuliani had been eager to exploit for his own political image the
immense admiration and gratitude which had been expressed around the nation and the
world for the epic feats of the New York firefighters. The firemen were now the most
revered symbols in the country: typical was the cover of Newsweek’s post-9/11 issue,
which showed some firemen raising a flag over the ruins, with an evident allusion to the
flag raising on Iwo Jima. Giuliani made a practice of appearing in public wearing a
baseball cap emblazoned with the letters “FDNY.” The police he relegated to his
windbreaker, which bore the legend “NYPD.” Giuliani proved to be treacherous in
practice to both, and he did this by playing the firefighters against the police, and vice
versa – all in the service of the 9/11 coverup. The firemen, once revered, would soon be
“inexcusable,” according to Giuliani.
CONTROLLED DEMOLITION AGAIN
Giuliani brought in Controlled Demolition, the same highly suspect firm which had
finished the demolition of the Murragh Federal Building in Oklahoma City in 1995, and
which had disposed of the evidence there in the process.
This contract was let surreptitiously just eleven days after 9/11, and empowered
Controlled Demolition to recycle the steel of the World Trade Center. Giuliani has not a
word to say about this in his memoirs. The city accepted rock-bottom prices for the steel;
the priority was to make it disappear fast. Trucks hauling the steel away were equipped
with $1,000 Global Positioning System locators to ensure that none of them went astray,
and that no suspect steel ended up in the back yard of a maverick 9/11 researcher. All
investigators, in fact, were banned from ground zero. Now Controlled Demolition would
eradicate any chance of using the abundant physical evidence present in “the pile,” as the
mass of twisted rubble of the WTC quickly came to be called. It was a scene out of Kafka
– it was impossible to find out which officials were superintending the destruction of the
evidence, to save a myth that was being used to set in motion a world war.
Giuliani, along with ghostwriter Ken Kurson, has produced a relentlessly self-laudatory
and self-promoting autobiography entitled Leadership. This work constitutes a monument
of hypocrisy. During one of his visits to the WTC site, the Mayor noticed that many
visitors were taking pictures of the site. Because there was so much to hide, he found this
troubling: “I noticed a disturbing phenomenon – hundreds of people carrying disposable
cameras and handheld video cameras. I understood the impulse – this was a historic
event, and experiencing it up close had a tremendous impact. At the same time, this was a
crime scene, and a dangerous one. I did not want anyone to get hurt, or to damage
evidence as they scouted out the best angle for their snapshots. If we didn’t do something
about it immediately, it would soon be out of control, a voyeur’s paradise, and we risked
the site developing a distasteful freak show aspect.” (Giuliani 49) An independent
photographic documentation of the crime scene, one the FBI would not be able to
confiscate? Horrors! Giuliani promulgated his infamous order that all photos were illegal
in the area around the WTC complex. Those who risked a snapshot also risked going to
jail.
When it was a question of preventing public scrutiny, Giuliani considered the WTC pile a
crime scene where there was evidence that had to be preserved. But when it was a
question of sending the crucial evidence to the other end of the world, Giuliani’s motto
became “scoop and dump” – with the help of Controlled Demolition. As Thomas Van
Essen, Giuliani’s fawning appointee as Fire Commissioner, described the scene: “…a
full-blown recovery operation was under way, and the site had become an enormous
construction zone. Trucks and plows rolled around everywhere. Giant cranes lofted
massive steel beams over the heads of the men below.” (Van Essen 263) The steel was
being sent to a city land fill at Fresh Kills, Staten Island.
According to Van Essen, by the end of October Giuliani was filled with humanitarian
concern about the danger of accidents to those working on the pile. One of the main
groups present there were firefighters who were seeking the bodies or other remains of
their hundreds of fallen comrades. According to the literary provocateur Langewiesche,
“there were some among the construction workers and the police who grew unreasonably
impatient with the firemen, and became overeager to repeat the obvious – in polite terms,
that these so-called heroes were just ordinary men. On the other hand, the firemen
seemed to become steadily more self-absorbed and isolated from the larger cleanup
efforts underway. “ (Langewiesche 158) “Firemen were said to prefer watches from the
Tourneau store, policemen to opt for kitchen appliances, and construction workers (who
were at a disadvantage here) to enjoy picking through whatever leftovers they came upon
– for instance, wine under the ruins of the Marriott hotel, and cases of contraband
cigarettes that spilled from the US Customs vault in the Building Six debris.”
(Langewiesche 159) Langewiesche reported with great gusto the discovery of evidence
that the firemen had been looting even before the towers came down. “Fifty feet below
the level of the street they began to uncover the hulk of a fire truck that had been driven
deep by the collapse.” According to Langewiesche, the field superintendent who only
wanted to get on with the job at hand felt “delight, then, after the hulk of the fire truck
appeared, that rather than containing bodies (which would have required decorum), its
crew cab was filled with dozens of new pairs of jeans from The Gap, a Trade Center
store. When a grappler pulled off the roof, the jeans were strewn about for all to see. It
was exactly the sort of evidence the field superintendent had been waiting for. While a
group of initially bewildered firemen looked on, the construction workers went wild.”
(Langewiesche 161) The firemen, we must remember, were those who knew most about
the controlled demolition of the World Trade Center, and they were also the group most
likely to tell what they knew. In this sense, the firemen posed perhaps the greatest
immediate threat to the 9/11 myth upon which the oligarchy had staked so much. The
obvious campaign of psychological warfare against the firemen, therefore, was of worldhistorical
importance. Given the stakes, it would be impossible to exclude that the
dungaree incident which Langewiesche found so delightful had been cynically staged as a
means of keeping the angry and rebellious firemen off-balance, distracted and confused.
The jeans could easily have been planted at a quiet moment during the graveyard shift.
Langewiesche’s reporting came out during the fall in the Atlantic Monthly, and rankled
deeply among the angry firemen and the bereaved families.
On October 31, Halloween, Giuliani decreed without any meaningful consultation that
there would be an upper limit of 25 firefighters on each shift at the WTC pile, along with
25 New York City policemen and 25 Port Authority patrolmen. Soon “the rescue workers
were up in arms. Stories went around that we had simply given up on finding bodies; that
the mayor wanted to speed the cleanup so it would be finished before he left office; that
we had recovered gold from the trade center and didn’t care about anything else….Union
officials started telling the workers we were haphazardly trucking everything to Fresh
Kills – a ‘scoop and dump’ operation.” (Van Essen 265)
Langewiesche defends the Mayor’s justification of cutting the firemen’s representation
on the pile: “when Giuliani gave ‘safety’ as the reason for reducing their presence on the
pile, he was completely sincere.” (Langewiesche 161) In his view, the big problem on the
pile was “firemen running wild.” (Langewiesche 162) In mid-October, an audience of
firemen, policeman, widows, and orphans loudly booed several members of the Giuliani
administration, but also Senator Hillary Clinton and a local Democratic politician. (Van
Essen 258) On Friday, November 2, Giuliani was able to harvest the results of his
provocations. In the morning, more than 1,000 firemen came together at the WTC. Their
chants included: “Bring the brothers home! Bring the brothers home!”, “Do the right
thing!”, “Rudy must go!”, and “Tom must go!”, a reference to Fire Commissioner
Thomas Van Essen, a Giuliani appointee. Their signs read, “Mayor Giuliani, let us bring
our brothers home.” Speakers denounced Giuliani’s hasty carting off of wreckage and
remains to Fresh Kills as a “scoop and dump” operation. One well-respected former
captain appealed to the crowd: “My son Tommy of Squad 1 is not home yet! Don’t
abandon him!” This was met with a cry of “Bring Tommy home!” from the assembled
throng. This scene soon degenerated into an altercation between the firefighters and the
police guarding the site, and then into a full-scale riot. Twelve firefighters were taken to
jail, while five policemen were injured. Giuliani had gladly sacrificed the 9/11 myth of
national solidarity to the needs of his campaign of psychological warfare and
provocations against the firemen. It was All Souls Day, the day of the dead, November 2,
2001.
At a press conference that same day, Giuliani hypocritically condemned the actions of the
firemen as inexcusable. The police wanted to make more arrests, and were scanning
videotapes of the riot to identify firefighters. The city was appalled by what had
happened; many newspapers were anti-Giuliani this time. One trade union leader,
Gorman, called Giuliani a “fascist,” and referred to the Police Commissioner and the Fire
Commissioner as Giuliani’s “goons.”
On Monday, November 11, Giuliani and his officials were again confronted by 200 angry
firefighters and bereaved families at a meeting. Giuliani was accused again and again of
running a “scoop and dump” operation. One widow protested: “Last week my husband
was memorialized as a hero, and this week he’s thought of as landfill?” When Van Essen
stammered that the department had been overwhelmed, a widow replied, “Stop saying
you are overwhelmed! I am overwhelmed! I have three children and my husband is
dead!” Dr. Hirsch of the “biological stain” theory discussed below tried to defend
Giuliani by arguing that nothing resembling an intact body was being found any longer,
but he was shouted down by firemen who knew from their experience on the pile that this
was not so. Van Essen was forced to concede that, based on photographic evidence he
personally examined, remains were indeed still be found that had to be “considered intact
bodies.” (Van Essen 270-271)
Giuliani’s rush to eradicate the crime scene without regard to the preservation of human
remains thus served two important goals. He was able to destroy much pertinent
evidence, and he succeeded in throwing the firefighters on the defensive and playing
them off against the police, the construction workers, and other groups. He was able to
split the firefighters themselves. The firefighters were tied into knots emotionally, and
were left with no time or energy to pursue the issue of justice for their heroic fallen
comrades, which could only have been served by directly raising the issue of the
indications of controlled demolition in numerous points of the World Trade Center
complex. Nor was the cynical oligarchical strategy limited to Giuliani: at the 9/11
commission’s last set of hearings in New York City, the FDNY, NYPD, and other line
departments of the city were mercilessly baited by the likes of former Navy Secretary
John Lehman, who told them that their operational coordination was inferior to that of a
Boy Scout troop. So far the firefighters have not been able to mount a challenge to the
9/11 myth, which necessarily portrays them as incompetent, in spite of their heroism and
huge losses. Only by demolishing the myth, only by unearthing the story of controlled
demolition, can the immense historical merits of the firefighters be duly recognized.
Giuliani’s memoir is mainly for self-aggrandizement, but it also attempts to shore up the
official version at certain key vulnerable points, since the Giuliani legend and the 9/11
myth are now inextricably intertwined. The following remarks are attributed to Dr.
Charles S. Hirsch, the Medical Examiner of New York City in the late afternoon of 9/11:
“Most of the bodies will be vaporized. We’re going to end up with biological stains,
where the tissue has become shapeless, amorphous masses of matter.” According to
Giuliani, Hirsch estimated that the temperature inside the building had reached 2,000
degrees (presumably Fahrenheit). Such a temperature is impossible in the physical
universe as we otherwise know it to be constituted. (Giuliani 22)
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/lon.../07/317435.html
The thesis of Webster Tarpley’s 911 Synthetic Terror: Made in USA has been enthusiastically received with its working model of the 9/11 plot: a rogue network of moles, patsies, and a commando cell in the privatized intelligence services, backed by corrupt political and corporate media elites.
Buttressed by historical examples like the Baader-Meinhof Gang and the Gunpowder Plot, this model makes it clear how such a monstrous false-flag or self-terror exploit is possible even under a largely benign government. That paradox is the incredibility gap that has made most Americans reject the evidence about 9/11 as paranoid fantasy.
Tarpley brings decades of expertise to the 9/11 issue. Already in 1978 he had exposed the terrorist Red Brigades as patsies of Italy's fascist P2 shadow government, and 9/11 is on the same pattern. The forthright subtitle, Made in USA, is backed up by an analysis of key figures who behave like moles working for the rogue network or parallel government.
9/11 Synthetic Terror highlights the salient points of sheer physical impossibility of the official 9/11 conspiracy theory. It then analyzes the psychological traits which make Anglo-American society gullible to artificial enemy images and unable to grasp the truth of 9/11.
..................................................................... In an email account, Forbes reported that over the weekend of September 8-9, 2001, floors 50 and above of the South Tower experienced a
“power down,” meaning that all electrical current was cut off for about 36 hours. The
reason officially cited was that the electrical cables in the building were being upgraded.
Forbes was an information technology officer in charge of Fiduciary Trust’s computer
network; his attention was engaged by the power down because it fell to him to shut
down all the company’s computers and related systems before the power went out. After
the power down, he had to turn the computers back on again, and restore service on the
network. Because there was no electric power above the fiftieth floor, there were also no
security cameras and no security locks. There were however many outside engineering
personnel coming in and out of the tower at all hours during the weekend. Forbes lived in
Jersey City and could see the WTC towers from his home; when he saw the conflagration
on the morning of 9/11, he immediately related it to the events of the previous weekend.
(www.serendipity.li/wot/forbes01.htm)
SEISMIC EVIDENCE
The seismic effects of the collapse of the towers were observed and measured by
Columbia University’s Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory just up the Hudson River in
Palisades, New York. Here seismographs recorded two spikes reflecting two shock waves
in the earth on the morning of 9/11. The crucial fact is that these two spikes came just
before the collapse of the towers began. Specifically, Columbia scientists at the facility
registered a tremor of 2.1 on the Richter scale at 9:59:04 EDT, just before the beginning
of the collapse of the South Tower, and a 2.3 shock just as the North Tower began to
come down at 10:28:31 EDT. Both tremors were recorded before the vast majority of the
mass of the buildings hit the ground. Although they were not of earthquake proportions,
these were considerable shocks, about twenty times more potent than any previously
measured shock wave generated by a falling building. The 1993 WTC truck bomb had
produced no seismic effects at all – it had failed to register. At 5:20 local time on the
afternoon of 9/11, there was also a 0.6 tremor from the collapse of WTC 7, also at the
beginning, rather than the end, of this building’s collapse. Dr. Arthur Lerner-Lam, the
director of the Columbia Center for Hazards and Risk Research, commented that “during
the collapse, most of the energy of the falling debris was absorbed by the towers and
neighboring structures, converting them into rubble and dust or causing other damage –
but not causing significant ground shaking.” But Lerner-Lam declined to draw any
conclusions from the glaring anomaly represented by his data, which the 9/11
commission has also avoided. (Marrs 39 ff.)
After most of the pile was removed, experts found that there were pools of what appeared
to have been molten metal which had congealed on foundations of the buildings many
levels underground. Some steel appeared to have partially melted, other steel had
undergone alternations to its crystalline structure, and still other steel was full of holes,
like a Swiss cheese.
GIULIANI OBLITERATES THE WTC CRIME SCENE
Mayor Giuliani, by pedigree, was a creature of the highly repressive bureaucraticauthoritarian
apparatus which had consolidated itself in the Justice Department during the
Reagan years. He now performed yeoman service in defense of the 9/11 myth, a myth
which had its most obvious vulnerability in its most spectacular point: the unprecedented
and physically inexplicable collapse of the twin towers. Giuliani used the pretext that his
term was ending on December 31, 2001 to organize the massive obliteration of the WTC
as a crime scene. Parallel to this, Giuliani engineered a confrontation with the New York
firemen, both to divert public attention from his tampering with the evidence, and also to
neutralize the potential of the firemen, the one group which might have denounced the
presence of controlled demolition charges in WTC 1, 2, and 7, of which, as we have seen,
they were well aware.
During the crisis, Giuliani had been eager to exploit for his own political image the
immense admiration and gratitude which had been expressed around the nation and the
world for the epic feats of the New York firefighters. The firemen were now the most
revered symbols in the country: typical was the cover of Newsweek’s post-9/11 issue,
which showed some firemen raising a flag over the ruins, with an evident allusion to the
flag raising on Iwo Jima. Giuliani made a practice of appearing in public wearing a
baseball cap emblazoned with the letters “FDNY.” The police he relegated to his
windbreaker, which bore the legend “NYPD.” Giuliani proved to be treacherous in
practice to both, and he did this by playing the firefighters against the police, and vice
versa – all in the service of the 9/11 coverup. The firemen, once revered, would soon be
“inexcusable,” according to Giuliani.
CONTROLLED DEMOLITION AGAIN
Giuliani brought in Controlled Demolition, the same highly suspect firm which had
finished the demolition of the Murragh Federal Building in Oklahoma City in 1995, and
which had disposed of the evidence there in the process.
This contract was let surreptitiously just eleven days after 9/11, and empowered
Controlled Demolition to recycle the steel of the World Trade Center. Giuliani has not a
word to say about this in his memoirs. The city accepted rock-bottom prices for the steel;
the priority was to make it disappear fast. Trucks hauling the steel away were equipped
with $1,000 Global Positioning System locators to ensure that none of them went astray,
and that no suspect steel ended up in the back yard of a maverick 9/11 researcher. All
investigators, in fact, were banned from ground zero. Now Controlled Demolition would
eradicate any chance of using the abundant physical evidence present in “the pile,” as the
mass of twisted rubble of the WTC quickly came to be called. It was a scene out of Kafka
– it was impossible to find out which officials were superintending the destruction of the
evidence, to save a myth that was being used to set in motion a world war.
Giuliani, along with ghostwriter Ken Kurson, has produced a relentlessly self-laudatory
and self-promoting autobiography entitled Leadership. This work constitutes a monument
of hypocrisy. During one of his visits to the WTC site, the Mayor noticed that many
visitors were taking pictures of the site. Because there was so much to hide, he found this
troubling: “I noticed a disturbing phenomenon – hundreds of people carrying disposable
cameras and handheld video cameras. I understood the impulse – this was a historic
event, and experiencing it up close had a tremendous impact. At the same time, this was a
crime scene, and a dangerous one. I did not want anyone to get hurt, or to damage
evidence as they scouted out the best angle for their snapshots. If we didn’t do something
about it immediately, it would soon be out of control, a voyeur’s paradise, and we risked
the site developing a distasteful freak show aspect.” (Giuliani 49) An independent
photographic documentation of the crime scene, one the FBI would not be able to
confiscate? Horrors! Giuliani promulgated his infamous order that all photos were illegal
in the area around the WTC complex. Those who risked a snapshot also risked going to
jail.
When it was a question of preventing public scrutiny, Giuliani considered the WTC pile a
crime scene where there was evidence that had to be preserved. But when it was a
question of sending the crucial evidence to the other end of the world, Giuliani’s motto
became “scoop and dump” – with the help of Controlled Demolition. As Thomas Van
Essen, Giuliani’s fawning appointee as Fire Commissioner, described the scene: “…a
full-blown recovery operation was under way, and the site had become an enormous
construction zone. Trucks and plows rolled around everywhere. Giant cranes lofted
massive steel beams over the heads of the men below.” (Van Essen 263) The steel was
being sent to a city land fill at Fresh Kills, Staten Island.
According to Van Essen, by the end of October Giuliani was filled with humanitarian
concern about the danger of accidents to those working on the pile. One of the main
groups present there were firefighters who were seeking the bodies or other remains of
their hundreds of fallen comrades. According to the literary provocateur Langewiesche,
“there were some among the construction workers and the police who grew unreasonably
impatient with the firemen, and became overeager to repeat the obvious – in polite terms,
that these so-called heroes were just ordinary men. On the other hand, the firemen
seemed to become steadily more self-absorbed and isolated from the larger cleanup
efforts underway. “ (Langewiesche 158) “Firemen were said to prefer watches from the
Tourneau store, policemen to opt for kitchen appliances, and construction workers (who
were at a disadvantage here) to enjoy picking through whatever leftovers they came upon
– for instance, wine under the ruins of the Marriott hotel, and cases of contraband
cigarettes that spilled from the US Customs vault in the Building Six debris.”
(Langewiesche 159) Langewiesche reported with great gusto the discovery of evidence
that the firemen had been looting even before the towers came down. “Fifty feet below
the level of the street they began to uncover the hulk of a fire truck that had been driven
deep by the collapse.” According to Langewiesche, the field superintendent who only
wanted to get on with the job at hand felt “delight, then, after the hulk of the fire truck
appeared, that rather than containing bodies (which would have required decorum), its
crew cab was filled with dozens of new pairs of jeans from The Gap, a Trade Center
store. When a grappler pulled off the roof, the jeans were strewn about for all to see. It
was exactly the sort of evidence the field superintendent had been waiting for. While a
group of initially bewildered firemen looked on, the construction workers went wild.”
(Langewiesche 161) The firemen, we must remember, were those who knew most about
the controlled demolition of the World Trade Center, and they were also the group most
likely to tell what they knew. In this sense, the firemen posed perhaps the greatest
immediate threat to the 9/11 myth upon which the oligarchy had staked so much. The
obvious campaign of psychological warfare against the firemen, therefore, was of worldhistorical
importance. Given the stakes, it would be impossible to exclude that the
dungaree incident which Langewiesche found so delightful had been cynically staged as a
means of keeping the angry and rebellious firemen off-balance, distracted and confused.
The jeans could easily have been planted at a quiet moment during the graveyard shift.
Langewiesche’s reporting came out during the fall in the Atlantic Monthly, and rankled
deeply among the angry firemen and the bereaved families.
On October 31, Halloween, Giuliani decreed without any meaningful consultation that
there would be an upper limit of 25 firefighters on each shift at the WTC pile, along with
25 New York City policemen and 25 Port Authority patrolmen. Soon “the rescue workers
were up in arms. Stories went around that we had simply given up on finding bodies; that
the mayor wanted to speed the cleanup so it would be finished before he left office; that
we had recovered gold from the trade center and didn’t care about anything else….Union
officials started telling the workers we were haphazardly trucking everything to Fresh
Kills – a ‘scoop and dump’ operation.” (Van Essen 265)
Langewiesche defends the Mayor’s justification of cutting the firemen’s representation
on the pile: “when Giuliani gave ‘safety’ as the reason for reducing their presence on the
pile, he was completely sincere.” (Langewiesche 161) In his view, the big problem on the
pile was “firemen running wild.” (Langewiesche 162) In mid-October, an audience of
firemen, policeman, widows, and orphans loudly booed several members of the Giuliani
administration, but also Senator Hillary Clinton and a local Democratic politician. (Van
Essen 258) On Friday, November 2, Giuliani was able to harvest the results of his
provocations. In the morning, more than 1,000 firemen came together at the WTC. Their
chants included: “Bring the brothers home! Bring the brothers home!”, “Do the right
thing!”, “Rudy must go!”, and “Tom must go!”, a reference to Fire Commissioner
Thomas Van Essen, a Giuliani appointee. Their signs read, “Mayor Giuliani, let us bring
our brothers home.” Speakers denounced Giuliani’s hasty carting off of wreckage and
remains to Fresh Kills as a “scoop and dump” operation. One well-respected former
captain appealed to the crowd: “My son Tommy of Squad 1 is not home yet! Don’t
abandon him!” This was met with a cry of “Bring Tommy home!” from the assembled
throng. This scene soon degenerated into an altercation between the firefighters and the
police guarding the site, and then into a full-scale riot. Twelve firefighters were taken to
jail, while five policemen were injured. Giuliani had gladly sacrificed the 9/11 myth of
national solidarity to the needs of his campaign of psychological warfare and
provocations against the firemen. It was All Souls Day, the day of the dead, November 2,
2001.
At a press conference that same day, Giuliani hypocritically condemned the actions of the
firemen as inexcusable. The police wanted to make more arrests, and were scanning
videotapes of the riot to identify firefighters. The city was appalled by what had
happened; many newspapers were anti-Giuliani this time. One trade union leader,
Gorman, called Giuliani a “fascist,” and referred to the Police Commissioner and the Fire
Commissioner as Giuliani’s “goons.”
On Monday, November 11, Giuliani and his officials were again confronted by 200 angry
firefighters and bereaved families at a meeting. Giuliani was accused again and again of
running a “scoop and dump” operation. One widow protested: “Last week my husband
was memorialized as a hero, and this week he’s thought of as landfill?” When Van Essen
stammered that the department had been overwhelmed, a widow replied, “Stop saying
you are overwhelmed! I am overwhelmed! I have three children and my husband is
dead!” Dr. Hirsch of the “biological stain” theory discussed below tried to defend
Giuliani by arguing that nothing resembling an intact body was being found any longer,
but he was shouted down by firemen who knew from their experience on the pile that this
was not so. Van Essen was forced to concede that, based on photographic evidence he
personally examined, remains were indeed still be found that had to be “considered intact
bodies.” (Van Essen 270-271)
Giuliani’s rush to eradicate the crime scene without regard to the preservation of human
remains thus served two important goals. He was able to destroy much pertinent
evidence, and he succeeded in throwing the firefighters on the defensive and playing
them off against the police, the construction workers, and other groups. He was able to
split the firefighters themselves. The firefighters were tied into knots emotionally, and
were left with no time or energy to pursue the issue of justice for their heroic fallen
comrades, which could only have been served by directly raising the issue of the
indications of controlled demolition in numerous points of the World Trade Center
complex. Nor was the cynical oligarchical strategy limited to Giuliani: at the 9/11
commission’s last set of hearings in New York City, the FDNY, NYPD, and other line
departments of the city were mercilessly baited by the likes of former Navy Secretary
John Lehman, who told them that their operational coordination was inferior to that of a
Boy Scout troop. So far the firefighters have not been able to mount a challenge to the
9/11 myth, which necessarily portrays them as incompetent, in spite of their heroism and
huge losses. Only by demolishing the myth, only by unearthing the story of controlled
demolition, can the immense historical merits of the firefighters be duly recognized.
Giuliani’s memoir is mainly for self-aggrandizement, but it also attempts to shore up the
official version at certain key vulnerable points, since the Giuliani legend and the 9/11
myth are now inextricably intertwined. The following remarks are attributed to Dr.
Charles S. Hirsch, the Medical Examiner of New York City in the late afternoon of 9/11:
“Most of the bodies will be vaporized. We’re going to end up with biological stains,
where the tissue has become shapeless, amorphous masses of matter.” According to
Giuliani, Hirsch estimated that the temperature inside the building had reached 2,000
degrees (presumably Fahrenheit). Such a temperature is impossible in the physical
universe as we otherwise know it to be constituted. (Giuliani 22)
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/lon.../07/317435.html
The thesis of Webster Tarpley’s 911 Synthetic Terror: Made in USA has been enthusiastically received with its working model of the 9/11 plot: a rogue network of moles, patsies, and a commando cell in the privatized intelligence services, backed by corrupt political and corporate media elites.
Buttressed by historical examples like the Baader-Meinhof Gang and the Gunpowder Plot, this model makes it clear how such a monstrous false-flag or self-terror exploit is possible even under a largely benign government. That paradox is the incredibility gap that has made most Americans reject the evidence about 9/11 as paranoid fantasy.
Tarpley brings decades of expertise to the 9/11 issue. Already in 1978 he had exposed the terrorist Red Brigades as patsies of Italy's fascist P2 shadow government, and 9/11 is on the same pattern. The forthright subtitle, Made in USA, is backed up by an analysis of key figures who behave like moles working for the rogue network or parallel government.
9/11 Synthetic Terror highlights the salient points of sheer physical impossibility of the official 9/11 conspiracy theory. It then analyzes the psychological traits which make Anglo-American society gullible to artificial enemy images and unable to grasp the truth of 9/11.
QUOTE (metamars+)
I have indeed used physics to show that the FEMA Fairy Tale version of collapse is impossible. Nobody has even attempted to challenge my post quantitatively, though there was one suggestion (I think it was serious, though I'm not entirely sure) by RealityCheck who suggested that I add in the heat energy released by the people inside the plane when their bodies burned, as well as the heat produced by "combustible aluminum" and other metals. If you or anybody else can come up with an energy budget that gives a hope and a prayer of showing that the FEMA Fairy Tale is plausible, please post it now.
A new assertion is not relevant to the disproof of a previous assertion; this is known as "shifting the goalposts." The prior assertions were proven untrue, using precisely the requested methodology: basic physics.
I will therefore note that you are making new assertions (and ones, by the way, denied by the simple analysis I posted earlier, to wit:
I will therefore note that you are making new assertions (and ones, by the way, denied by the simple analysis I posted earlier, to wit:
QUOTE (Schneibster+)
KE = 1/2mv^2
Now, the mass of the towers was about 450 million kg, according to this. Four sources, he has. I think that's pretty definitive. So now we can take the KE of the top floor, and divide by two- that will be the average of the top and bottom floors. Then we'll compare that to the KE of a floor in the middle, and if they're comparable, then we're good to go- take the KE of the top floor and divide by two and multiply by 110 stories. We'll also assume that the mass is evenly divided among the floors, and that they were loaded to perhaps half of their load rating of 100lbs/sqft. That would be
208ft x 208ft = 43,264sqft
50lbs/sqft * 43264sqft = 2,163,200lbs = 981,211kg
additional weight per floor. So the top floor would be
450,000,000 kg / 110 floors = 4,090,909 kg/floor
so the total mass would be
4,090,909 kg + 981,211 kg = 5,072,120 kg/floor
Now, the velocity at impact we figured above was
90.4m/s
so our
KE = (5,072,120kg x (90.4m/s)^2)/2 = 20,725,088,521J
So, divide by 2 and we get
10,362,544,260J
OK, now let's try a floor halfway up:
t = (2d/a)^1/2 = (417/9.8)^1/2 = 6.52s
v = at = 9.8*6.52 = 63.93m/s
KE = (mv^2)/2 = (5,072,120kg x (63.93m/s)^2)/2 = 10,363,863,011J
Hey, look at that! They're almost equal! That means we can just multiply that 10 billion Joules of energy by 110 floors and get the total, to a very good approximation. Let's see now, that's
110 floors * 10,362,544,260J (see, I'm being conservative, took the lower value)
= 1,139,879,868,600J
OK, now how much is 1.1 trillion joules in tons of TNT-equivalent? Let's see, now, a ton of TNT is 4,184,000,000J. So how many tons of TNT is 1,139,879,868,600J?
1,139,879,868,600J / 4,184,000,000J/t = 272t
Now, that's 272 tons of TNT, more or less; five hundred forty one-thousand-pound blockbuster bombs, more or less! Hey, that's over a QUARTER KILOTON! We're talking about as much energy as a SMALL NUCLEAR WEAPON- and we've only calculated the kinetic energy of the falling building! We haven't added in the burning fuel, or the burning paper and cloth and wood and plastic, or the kinetic energy of impact of the plane (which, by the way, would have substantially turned to heat, and been put into the tower by the plane debris- and guess what, that's ANOTHER small nuclear weapon-equivalent right there) and we've got enough heat to melt the entire whole thing! My goodness. Now what do you suppose made that pyroclastic flow?
OK, so what are we talking about here? How about if we started dropping 1000-pound block buster bombs on top of it- and didn't stop until we'd dropped five hundred and forty of them? Do you think that would do it? No question in my mind, having seen films of what a 1000-pound bomb can do to a city block. After all, the tower is a city block- and there's only 110 floors- that means we get to use four or five 1000-pound bombs on each floor! How much dust do you think that would create? Suppose we put those four or five 1000-pound bombs on each floor and blew them all off at once. How much concrete do you think that would blow into dust? Gee, I bet pretty much all of it, huh?
Are you SURE you want to state that there wasn't enough energy around to do this? Remember, we haven't added the energy of four floors of burning wood, plastic, cloth and paper, at- let's be conservative, say half the weight is stuff like that and half is metal, so 25lbs/sqft? And then how about as much energy as the total collapse again, from the plane impact? And what about the energy from the burning fuel? You know, I'm betting we have a kiloton to play with here. I bet we have a twentieth of the energy that turned the entire city of Nagasaki into a flat burning plain with a hundred-foot hole surrounded by a mile of firestorm to work with. Do you think we can do it with that much? Hey, man, we could blow a hole in New York that would be a heckuvalot bigger than the WTC with a kiloton!
Now, the mass of the towers was about 450 million kg, according to this. Four sources, he has. I think that's pretty definitive. So now we can take the KE of the top floor, and divide by two- that will be the average of the top and bottom floors. Then we'll compare that to the KE of a floor in the middle, and if they're comparable, then we're good to go- take the KE of the top floor and divide by two and multiply by 110 stories. We'll also assume that the mass is evenly divided among the floors, and that they were loaded to perhaps half of their load rating of 100lbs/sqft. That would be
208ft x 208ft = 43,264sqft
50lbs/sqft * 43264sqft = 2,163,200lbs = 981,211kg
additional weight per floor. So the top floor would be
450,000,000 kg / 110 floors = 4,090,909 kg/floor
so the total mass would be
4,090,909 kg + 981,211 kg = 5,072,120 kg/floor
Now, the velocity at impact we figured above was
90.4m/s
so our
KE = (5,072,120kg x (90.4m/s)^2)/2 = 20,725,088,521J
So, divide by 2 and we get
10,362,544,260J
OK, now let's try a floor halfway up:
t = (2d/a)^1/2 = (417/9.8)^1/2 = 6.52s
v = at = 9.8*6.52 = 63.93m/s
KE = (mv^2)/2 = (5,072,120kg x (63.93m/s)^2)/2 = 10,363,863,011J
Hey, look at that! They're almost equal! That means we can just multiply that 10 billion Joules of energy by 110 floors and get the total, to a very good approximation. Let's see now, that's
110 floors * 10,362,544,260J (see, I'm being conservative, took the lower value)
= 1,139,879,868,600J
OK, now how much is 1.1 trillion joules in tons of TNT-equivalent? Let's see, now, a ton of TNT is 4,184,000,000J. So how many tons of TNT is 1,139,879,868,600J?
1,139,879,868,600J / 4,184,000,000J/t = 272t
Now, that's 272 tons of TNT, more or less; five hundred forty one-thousand-pound blockbuster bombs, more or less! Hey, that's over a QUARTER KILOTON! We're talking about as much energy as a SMALL NUCLEAR WEAPON- and we've only calculated the kinetic energy of the falling building! We haven't added in the burning fuel, or the burning paper and cloth and wood and plastic, or the kinetic energy of impact of the plane (which, by the way, would have substantially turned to heat, and been put into the tower by the plane debris- and guess what, that's ANOTHER small nuclear weapon-equivalent right there) and we've got enough heat to melt the entire whole thing! My goodness. Now what do you suppose made that pyroclastic flow?
OK, so what are we talking about here? How about if we started dropping 1000-pound block buster bombs on top of it- and didn't stop until we'd dropped five hundred and forty of them? Do you think that would do it? No question in my mind, having seen films of what a 1000-pound bomb can do to a city block. After all, the tower is a city block- and there's only 110 floors- that means we get to use four or five 1000-pound bombs on each floor! How much dust do you think that would create? Suppose we put those four or five 1000-pound bombs on each floor and blew them all off at once. How much concrete do you think that would blow into dust? Gee, I bet pretty much all of it, huh?
Are you SURE you want to state that there wasn't enough energy around to do this? Remember, we haven't added the energy of four floors of burning wood, plastic, cloth and paper, at- let's be conservative, say half the weight is stuff like that and half is metal, so 25lbs/sqft? And then how about as much energy as the total collapse again, from the plane impact? And what about the energy from the burning fuel? You know, I'm betting we have a kiloton to play with here. I bet we have a twentieth of the energy that turned the entire city of Nagasaki into a flat burning plain with a hundred-foot hole surrounded by a mile of firestorm to work with. Do you think we can do it with that much? Hey, man, we could blow a hole in New York that would be a heckuvalot bigger than the WTC with a kiloton!
So first I must note that your statement: "Nobody has even attempted to challenge my post quantitatively..." is at best inaccurate and at worst, a lie. If you had actually read what I wrote, you would have found this, and might have been able to do a comparison of it to what you posted. (I am assuming, you see, that you did not read what I wrote, rather than that you read it and chose to ignore it; the first is merely dumb, whereas the second is malicious.)
Now let's have a look at the claims made in what you quoted:
Now let's have a look at the claims made in what you quoted:
QUOTE (metamars+)
I've also provided a link to Hoffman's paper, that shows that the energy needed to drive the expansion of the dust cloud produced by the collapse of WTC1 was conservatively 10x the dominant energy source. (He completely ignored the energy sink represented by the need to heat the steel sufficiently to weaken it to the point of collapse. Obviously, he didn't need to consider it.)
I suggest that serious underestimation of the available energy, or serious overestimation of the energy necessary to create the dust cloud, has occurred (Hoffman seems relatively straightforward, I will work at first upon the assumption that he is not deliberately overlooking evidence that detracts from his claims). Let's see, now:
QUOTE (Hoffman+)
This paper shows that the energy required to produce the expansion of the dust cloud observed immediately following the collapse of 1 World Trade Center (the North Tower) was much greater than the gravitational energy available from its elevated mass. It uses only basic physics.
Here we find the first clue that there might be a problem. You see, the methodology used here appears to be to use calculations of the potential energy; and this is confirmed:
QUOTE (Hoffman+)
The accepted source of this energy was the gravitational potential energy of the towers
However, immediately afterward, there is an assertion that disagrees with one of my assertions above:
QUOTE (Hoffman+)
which was far greater than the energy released by the fires that preceded the collapses.
I have done this calculation myself, and my calculation shows that in fact, the kinetic energy of the falling building materials is equal, in round numbers, to the energy of the plane impact plus the chemical potential energy in the jet fuel. But let's stick to the first point for now; we can come back to this one.
Now, calculation of the potential energy should yield the same value as calculations of the kinetic energy, right? After all, energy is conserved. Let's see what the results of the two calculations are, to see whether we can identify defects in the reasoning behind either assertion.
Now, calculation of the potential energy should yield the same value as calculations of the kinetic energy, right? After all, energy is conserved. Let's see what the results of the two calculations are, to see whether we can identify defects in the reasoning behind either assertion.
QUOTE (Hoffman+)
The magnitude of that source cannot be determined with much precision thanks to the secrecy surrounding details of the towers' construction.
Uh-oh, I have to say that this looks like a red herring to me. I have found numerous sources regarding the materials the towers were constructed of. I have in fact posted links to those sources, here and elsewhere; I believe I have only posted one link here, though; I didn't feel it necessary to post more, because that link refers to three different sources that all give about the same figure: 450 thousand tonnes- 450 million kilograms- of concrete and steel. Let's see what Hoffman has to say about the actual amounts involved:
should read
should read
Perhaps the attendant heat energy was 1% of the energy of grinding, perhaps is was 1000%. Your intuitive, qualitative argument glosses over this critical consideration.
QUOTE (Hoffman+)
However, FEMA's Building Performance Assessment Report gives an estimate: "Construction of WTC 1 resulted in the storage of more than 4 x 10^11 joules of potential energy over the 1,368-foot height of the structure." That is equal to about 111,000 KWH (kilowatt hours) per tower.
Hmmm. Where did FEMA get this figure? Hoffman does not say. If we go back to the actual FEMA report, we find that they also do not justify their assertions. So, in fact, since we do not know the source of their assertions, we are not justified in believing them. Let's see what the information on the masses of the buildings says in terms of potential energy and how that fits with either FEMA's assertion or my calculation of the kinetic energy above.
We know that the mass of a tower was 450 thousand tonnes. We know that
PE = mgh
where PE is the potential energy,
m is the mass,
g is the acceleration of gravity, and
h is the height.
Now, simplistically, we would just substitute the mass of the building for mass- but that would give us an unrealistically high result- it would be the equivalent of taking the entire structure of the building and putting it all at the top; if we do this, we get
PE = {450,000,000kg x 9.8m/s^2 x 417m) = 1,838,970,000,000J
or 1.8 trillion Joules, 1.8 x 10^12; that's equivalent to the energy released by the detonation of 439.52 tonnes of TNT. On the other hand, if we figure that each floor was
450,000t / 110 floors = 4091t/floor
and the height was
417m / 110 floors = 3.79m/floor
then we can see that the topmost floor would store
PE = mgh = (4091t x 9.8m/s^2 x 417m) = (4,090,909kg x 9.8m/s x 417m) = 16,717,908,719J = 3.9956761t (TNT)
or about the same energy as eight 1000-pound bombs. The bottommost floor would store
PE = 4,090,909kg x 9.8m/s^2 x 3.79m = 151944542J = 0.0363156t (TNT)
or about the same energy as 300kg of TNT- about 600 lbs of TNT.
Now, if you have a series of numbers that are the same distance apart, and you want the sum of them, you can arrange things to simplify the calculation. How? Easily. Take the biggest and smallest number, add them together, and multiply by half the number of numbers. Here is an example:
What is the sum of the numbers from 1 to 100?
Take 1 and 100, and add them together = 101
Take 2 and 99 and add them together = 101
...
Take 49 and 52 and add them together = 101
Take 50 and 51 and add them together = 101
Every pair adds up to 101. Now how many sums is that? Obviously, it is 50, duh- there are 100 numbers and we are taking them in pairs. So the total is 101 x 50 = 5050. If you have the patience, go ahead and add them all up and verify it- anybody with any sense at all about math will see that this must be true and avoid boring calculations with obvious results.
What if the difference isn't one? What if it's some other value? How about 5. So add up all the numbers divisible by 5 from 1 to 100 and find their sum.
Take 5 and 100 = 105
Take 10 and 95 = 105
...
Take 45 and 60 = 105
Take 50 and 55 = 105
How many are there? Ten, there are twenty numbers evenly divisible by 5 between 1 and 100 and we are taking them in pairs. So what's the sum? 105 x 10 = 1050.
What if there's an odd number? Easy- use the next lower even number and add half of the individual sums to the total at the end. Example: the sum of 1 thru 99:
Take 99 and 1 = 100
Take 98 and 2 = 100
...
Take 49 and 51 = 100
50 is left over. How many are there? 49, of course- so 49 x 100 = 4900 + 50 = 4950. Now, we saw above that the sum of 1 thru 100 is 5050, so if we just subtract 100 from that, we get 4950- see, we can get it two different ways, and we get the same answer. So it works.
OK, so now let's apply it to our building and figure the total PE:
16881337508.057851239669421487603J / pair of floors x 55 pairs = 928,473,562,943.18181818181818181818J
(For the mathematically inclined, I've used the calculator program in Windows, and the exact SI value of a gee, 9.80665m/s^2, and I didn't truncate anything- thus the long nasty repeating decimals, so we didn't lose accuracy- this implies accuracy far beyond the probably three significant figures of the mass value, so really we are only justified in taking the first four significant figures of the answer- close enough. We get 928 billion Joules.) So how does this stack up with my figures above?
Above, I cite the total KE of the building as 1.1 trillion Joules. That's pretty close to this figure- about 10% higher- but remember, my figure above included the loading at 50lbs/sqft in the office space, for an additional 981,211kg/floor. So let's add that into our sum and see what we get- 1,151,169,411,940.0588431818181818182J. What do you know- 1.1 trillion Joules! Just like I calculated for the KE earlier. And these are damn close: 1.151 vs. 1.139, a difference of less than 1%. Pretty good for off-the-cuff!
So we are led to the inexorable conclusion that the FEMA report underestimated the KE available by some 1.5 times. They estimated the PE at less than half its actual value. This certainly qualifies as a "conservative estimate." Now, let's evaluate this from an evidentiary perspective: if FEMA is trying to convince people they knew what happened, wouldn't it make sense to try to INFLATE this figure? Sure! More energy, more damage! So what are they doing UNDERESTIMATING it? Excuse me, we just threw everybody's conspiracy theory about FEMA off the bridge: they are screwing it up THE WRONG WAY if they are trying to deceive us!
OK, now let's have a look at Hoffman's claims. First, he claims that the energy to crush the concrete was not available. However, the amount needed is just about 135,000kWh- and 1 Ws = 1J, so 1 Wh = 3600J, and 1kWh = 3.6MJ. 135,000kWh therefore is about 486GJ. Interestingly, FEMA's incredibly conservative estimate of 400GJ is pretty close to this. But far more interestingly, my estimate of 1,139GJ far exceeds it; by more than a factor of two, in fact. So it appears that Hoffman's claim that there is not enough energy to crush all the concrete fails, even using very conservative numbers. In addition, there are a number of factors that Hoffman doesn't even consider. First, even if we accept FEMA's estimate of the building materials' potential energy, they have not considered the additional 25% represented by the floor loading- which increases their estimate to a more realistic 500GJ. And right there, Hoffman's estimate is proven wrong, right off the bat. I haven't even considered the mechanical and electrical efficiency of motors or the other machinery in rock crushers- nor whether a rock crusher is even a good model of the process in the first place- nor, as pointed out elsewhere, have we at any point considered the energy of the plane impact, nor of the burning jet fuel, nor of the paper, wood, cloth, etc. present on the floors that burned. And we already have more than plenty to powderize the entire place, no problem.
Now, let's examine the claim that the pyroclastic cloud could not have been driven outward as it was. Uh-oh; Hoffman makes a very serious physics mistake here. Note that Hoffman sweeps the energy needed to crush the concrete under the rug. BUT ENERGY IS CONSERVED! Yes, that's right, the crushing made all that concrete HOT! THE ENERGY DIDN'T GO ANYWHERE, IT'S ALL STILL THERE- BUT NOW IT'S HEAT INSTEAD OF KINETIC ENERGY!
This is a real boner. Hoffman subtracts the crushing of the concrete as if the concrete gets crushed, and then ALL THE ENERGY'S GONE. It JUST DISAPPEARS. This contradicts the BASIC PHYSICS PRINCIPLE of CONSERVATION OF ENERGY.
This is OVER. There's no more to say. This person knows ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about physics. You might as well claim that Allah reached out of the sky and knocked them down; it's as close to the truth as anything Jim Hoffman wrote.
We know that the mass of a tower was 450 thousand tonnes. We know that
PE = mgh
where PE is the potential energy,
m is the mass,
g is the acceleration of gravity, and
h is the height.
Now, simplistically, we would just substitute the mass of the building for mass- but that would give us an unrealistically high result- it would be the equivalent of taking the entire structure of the building and putting it all at the top; if we do this, we get
PE = {450,000,000kg x 9.8m/s^2 x 417m) = 1,838,970,000,000J
or 1.8 trillion Joules, 1.8 x 10^12; that's equivalent to the energy released by the detonation of 439.52 tonnes of TNT. On the other hand, if we figure that each floor was
450,000t / 110 floors = 4091t/floor
and the height was
417m / 110 floors = 3.79m/floor
then we can see that the topmost floor would store
PE = mgh = (4091t x 9.8m/s^2 x 417m) = (4,090,909kg x 9.8m/s x 417m) = 16,717,908,719J = 3.9956761t (TNT)
or about the same energy as eight 1000-pound bombs. The bottommost floor would store
PE = 4,090,909kg x 9.8m/s^2 x 3.79m = 151944542J = 0.0363156t (TNT)
or about the same energy as 300kg of TNT- about 600 lbs of TNT.
Now, if you have a series of numbers that are the same distance apart, and you want the sum of them, you can arrange things to simplify the calculation. How? Easily. Take the biggest and smallest number, add them together, and multiply by half the number of numbers. Here is an example:
What is the sum of the numbers from 1 to 100?
Take 1 and 100, and add them together = 101
Take 2 and 99 and add them together = 101
...
Take 49 and 52 and add them together = 101
Take 50 and 51 and add them together = 101
Every pair adds up to 101. Now how many sums is that? Obviously, it is 50, duh- there are 100 numbers and we are taking them in pairs. So the total is 101 x 50 = 5050. If you have the patience, go ahead and add them all up and verify it- anybody with any sense at all about math will see that this must be true and avoid boring calculations with obvious results.
What if the difference isn't one? What if it's some other value? How about 5. So add up all the numbers divisible by 5 from 1 to 100 and find their sum.
Take 5 and 100 = 105
Take 10 and 95 = 105
...
Take 45 and 60 = 105
Take 50 and 55 = 105
How many are there? Ten, there are twenty numbers evenly divisible by 5 between 1 and 100 and we are taking them in pairs. So what's the sum? 105 x 10 = 1050.
What if there's an odd number? Easy- use the next lower even number and add half of the individual sums to the total at the end. Example: the sum of 1 thru 99:
Take 99 and 1 = 100
Take 98 and 2 = 100
...
Take 49 and 51 = 100
50 is left over. How many are there? 49, of course- so 49 x 100 = 4900 + 50 = 4950. Now, we saw above that the sum of 1 thru 100 is 5050, so if we just subtract 100 from that, we get 4950- see, we can get it two different ways, and we get the same answer. So it works.
OK, so now let's apply it to our building and figure the total PE:
16881337508.057851239669421487603J / pair of floors x 55 pairs = 928,473,562,943.18181818181818181818J
(For the mathematically inclined, I've used the calculator program in Windows, and the exact SI value of a gee, 9.80665m/s^2, and I didn't truncate anything- thus the long nasty repeating decimals, so we didn't lose accuracy- this implies accuracy far beyond the probably three significant figures of the mass value, so really we are only justified in taking the first four significant figures of the answer- close enough. We get 928 billion Joules.) So how does this stack up with my figures above?
Above, I cite the total KE of the building as 1.1 trillion Joules. That's pretty close to this figure- about 10% higher- but remember, my figure above included the loading at 50lbs/sqft in the office space, for an additional 981,211kg/floor. So let's add that into our sum and see what we get- 1,151,169,411,940.0588431818181818182J. What do you know- 1.1 trillion Joules! Just like I calculated for the KE earlier. And these are damn close: 1.151 vs. 1.139, a difference of less than 1%. Pretty good for off-the-cuff!
So we are led to the inexorable conclusion that the FEMA report underestimated the KE available by some 1.5 times. They estimated the PE at less than half its actual value. This certainly qualifies as a "conservative estimate." Now, let's evaluate this from an evidentiary perspective: if FEMA is trying to convince people they knew what happened, wouldn't it make sense to try to INFLATE this figure? Sure! More energy, more damage! So what are they doing UNDERESTIMATING it? Excuse me, we just threw everybody's conspiracy theory about FEMA off the bridge: they are screwing it up THE WRONG WAY if they are trying to deceive us!
OK, now let's have a look at Hoffman's claims. First, he claims that the energy to crush the concrete was not available. However, the amount needed is just about 135,000kWh- and 1 Ws = 1J, so 1 Wh = 3600J, and 1kWh = 3.6MJ. 135,000kWh therefore is about 486GJ. Interestingly, FEMA's incredibly conservative estimate of 400GJ is pretty close to this. But far more interestingly, my estimate of 1,139GJ far exceeds it; by more than a factor of two, in fact. So it appears that Hoffman's claim that there is not enough energy to crush all the concrete fails, even using very conservative numbers. In addition, there are a number of factors that Hoffman doesn't even consider. First, even if we accept FEMA's estimate of the building materials' potential energy, they have not considered the additional 25% represented by the floor loading- which increases their estimate to a more realistic 500GJ. And right there, Hoffman's estimate is proven wrong, right off the bat. I haven't even considered the mechanical and electrical efficiency of motors or the other machinery in rock crushers- nor whether a rock crusher is even a good model of the process in the first place- nor, as pointed out elsewhere, have we at any point considered the energy of the plane impact, nor of the burning jet fuel, nor of the paper, wood, cloth, etc. present on the floors that burned. And we already have more than plenty to powderize the entire place, no problem.
Now, let's examine the claim that the pyroclastic cloud could not have been driven outward as it was. Uh-oh; Hoffman makes a very serious physics mistake here. Note that Hoffman sweeps the energy needed to crush the concrete under the rug. BUT ENERGY IS CONSERVED! Yes, that's right, the crushing made all that concrete HOT! THE ENERGY DIDN'T GO ANYWHERE, IT'S ALL STILL THERE- BUT NOW IT'S HEAT INSTEAD OF KINETIC ENERGY!
This is a real boner. Hoffman subtracts the crushing of the concrete as if the concrete gets crushed, and then ALL THE ENERGY'S GONE. It JUST DISAPPEARS. This contradicts the BASIC PHYSICS PRINCIPLE of CONSERVATION OF ENERGY.
This is OVER. There's no more to say. This person knows ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about physics. You might as well claim that Allah reached out of the sky and knocked them down; it's as close to the truth as anything Jim Hoffman wrote.
Quite honestly,I hadn't noticed your post. While I don't appreciate the insult (either the "lie" or "dumb" one), I do appreciate the fact that you have attempted to be quantitative, at least in part.
My post should have been clearer, and perhaps someday I will rewrite it. But for now:
I have shown that the energy necessary to increase the temperature of the steel in a WTC building by 1 degree Kelvin is
6.57 x 10^10 J
So, to raise the temperature sufficiently to weaken the steel strength by 40%, you would need
(550 - 293) x ( 6.57 x 10^10 ) =
1.688 x 10^13 J
You have shown that the PE = 1.152 x 10^12 J.
Now,
(1.152 x 10^12) / (1.688 x 10^13)
= 6.8 x 10^-2 < 7%
So you and FEMA still need to account for 93% of the energy deficit. (I'll let you figure out how many mini-nukes and/or blockbusters this is.
)
Even if you add in 1.4 x 10^12 J of chemical energy in 10K gallons of kerosene, you still weigh in at less than 15.2% of the energy needed. (FEMA estimates something like only 7K gallons burning inside the buildings, and, of course, most of the heat energy went into heating air and vented out of the building, not into the steel. But, we are humoring FEMA and making the math easy at the same time.)
I don't have the figure for the kinetic energy handy, but, as you say, "my calculation shows that in fact, the kinetic energy of the falling building materials is equal, in round numbers, to the energy of the plane impact plus the chemical potential energy in the jet fuel. "
So, using your calculations, you still have an energy deficit of on the order of 86%.
FEMA hypothesizes a "large commercial power generating station", the effects of which do not even discomfort a women standing in the impact zone, to suggest a solution to a problem that they dare not quantify.
Perhaps this hand-waiving impresses you, but I consider it a Fairy Tale. If FEMA had hypothesized that the Human Torch had converted to Islam (or, more to the point, joined forces with the black op monsters who murder their own fellow citizens), I would still consider it a Fairy Tale, though a more entertaining one.
I have to do some real work, now, but I'll offer this one parting comment on your statement re Hoffman:
This strikes me as deceptive. Let's assume that the energy figures quoted completely ignore how much heat is generated.*
Perhaps the attendant energy was 1% of the energy of grinding, perhaps is was 1000%. Your intuitive, qualitative argument glosses over this critical consideration.
* Obviously, if the figures subtract out heat energy generated so as to represent a perfectly efficient grinding process, your comment is completely without merit, ito an energy budget.
My post should have been clearer, and perhaps someday I will rewrite it. But for now:
I have shown that the energy necessary to increase the temperature of the steel in a WTC building by 1 degree Kelvin is
6.57 x 10^10 J
So, to raise the temperature sufficiently to weaken the steel strength by 40%, you would need
(550 - 293) x ( 6.57 x 10^10 ) =
1.688 x 10^13 J
You have shown that the PE = 1.152 x 10^12 J.
Now,
(1.152 x 10^12) / (1.688 x 10^13)
= 6.8 x 10^-2 < 7%
So you and FEMA still need to account for 93% of the energy deficit. (I'll let you figure out how many mini-nukes and/or blockbusters this is.
Even if you add in 1.4 x 10^12 J of chemical energy in 10K gallons of kerosene, you still weigh in at less than 15.2% of the energy needed. (FEMA estimates something like only 7K gallons burning inside the buildings, and, of course, most of the heat energy went into heating air and vented out of the building, not into the steel. But, we are humoring FEMA and making the math easy at the same time.)
I don't have the figure for the kinetic energy handy, but, as you say, "my calculation shows that in fact, the kinetic energy of the falling building materials is equal, in round numbers, to the energy of the plane impact plus the chemical potential energy in the jet fuel. "
So, using your calculations, you still have an energy deficit of on the order of 86%.
FEMA hypothesizes a "large commercial power generating station", the effects of which do not even discomfort a women standing in the impact zone, to suggest a solution to a problem that they dare not quantify.
Perhaps this hand-waiving impresses you, but I consider it a Fairy Tale. If FEMA had hypothesized that the Human Torch had converted to Islam (or, more to the point, joined forces with the black op monsters who murder their own fellow citizens), I would still consider it a Fairy Tale, though a more entertaining one.
I have to do some real work, now, but I'll offer this one parting comment on your statement re Hoffman:
QUOTE
the crushing made all that concrete HOT! THE ENERGY DIDN'T GO ANYWHERE, IT'S ALL STILL THERE- BUT NOW IT'S HEAT INSTEAD OF KINETIC ENERGY!
This strikes me as deceptive. Let's assume that the energy figures quoted completely ignore how much heat is generated.*
Perhaps the attendant energy was 1% of the energy of grinding, perhaps is was 1000%. Your intuitive, qualitative argument glosses over this critical consideration.
* Obviously, if the figures subtract out heat energy generated so as to represent a perfectly efficient grinding process, your comment is completely without merit, ito an energy budget.
QUOTE
Perhaps the attendant energy was 1% of the energy of grinding, perhaps is was 1000%. Your intuitive, qualitative argument glosses over this critical consideration.
should read
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Perhaps the attendant energy was 1% of the energy of grinding, perhaps is was 1000%. Your intuitive, qualitative argument glosses over this critical consideration. |
should read
Perhaps the attendant heat energy was 1% of the energy of grinding, perhaps is was 1000%. Your intuitive, qualitative argument glosses over this critical consideration.
Well, sport, if you don't like being insulted, my best advice is don't start out by insulting me:
QUOTE (metamars+)
If you're going to attack somebody's integrity by stating a falsehood, I don't think we should take you too seriously.....
Basically, you can stick it in your... kit bag. Sideways. After you fold it up so it's all sharp edges and corners.
Don't like it? Don't hand it out. Don't hand it out, you won't get any. Otherwise, not my problem what you like or don't like.
Don't like it? Don't hand it out. Don't hand it out, you won't get any. Otherwise, not my problem what you like or don't like.
QUOTE (metamars+)
I have shown that the energy necessary to increase the temperature of the steel in a WTC building by 1 degree Kelvin is
6.57 x 10^10 J
So, to raise the temperature sufficiently to weaken the steel strength by 40%, you would need
(550 - 293) x ( 6.57 x 10^10 ) =
1.688 x 10^13 J
6.57 x 10^10 J
So, to raise the temperature sufficiently to weaken the steel strength by 40%, you would need
(550 - 293) x ( 6.57 x 10^10 ) =
1.688 x 10^13 J
I gotta ask:
1. Why is it necessary to increase the temperature of the entire steel structure of the building, particularly considering that it's not all connected together?
2. Did you perhaps fail to note from the multiple sources- INCLUDING YOUR OWN- that the floors were all viscous-damped to reduce the impression of motion due to the wind by the occupants of the building- or fail to understand that viscous damping requires that the floors not be directly connected to the steel of either the core or the perimeter- or perhaps even fail to understand that the connection must be rubber or something like it, and that this means that it will have a very low index of thermal conductivity?
3. Did you completely miss the fact that the top five stories of the building falling on the one below represents at least a thirty times overload of its ultimate failure strength, by the most conservative estimates, WITHOUT ANY WEAKENING OF IT WHATSOEVER?
4. Did you fail to understand what will happen when you overload something THIRTY TIMES BEYOND ITS ULTIMATE FAILURE STRENGTH?
5. Did you even READ the paper linked at the beginning of this thread, much less UNDERSTAND it?
Meanwhile, you've already had it pointed out to you that the blacksmith holds a steel bar in his ungloved hand that is white-hot at the other end.
So even if you're not maintaining that you have to heat the entire structure for it to fall down (an obvious boner), but just that you have to heat ALL of it in order to heat PART of it, here's your New Clue:
Steel doesn't conduct heat that well. You can raise one end of a two-foot steel bar an inch wide and a quarter inch thick to over 1500 Celsius and the other end will be at room temperature.
Meanwhile:
1. Why is it necessary to increase the temperature of the entire steel structure of the building, particularly considering that it's not all connected together?
2. Did you perhaps fail to note from the multiple sources- INCLUDING YOUR OWN- that the floors were all viscous-damped to reduce the impression of motion due to the wind by the occupants of the building- or fail to understand that viscous damping requires that the floors not be directly connected to the steel of either the core or the perimeter- or perhaps even fail to understand that the connection must be rubber or something like it, and that this means that it will have a very low index of thermal conductivity?
3. Did you completely miss the fact that the top five stories of the building falling on the one below represents at least a thirty times overload of its ultimate failure strength, by the most conservative estimates, WITHOUT ANY WEAKENING OF IT WHATSOEVER?
4. Did you fail to understand what will happen when you overload something THIRTY TIMES BEYOND ITS ULTIMATE FAILURE STRENGTH?
5. Did you even READ the paper linked at the beginning of this thread, much less UNDERSTAND it?
Meanwhile, you've already had it pointed out to you that the blacksmith holds a steel bar in his ungloved hand that is white-hot at the other end.
So even if you're not maintaining that you have to heat the entire structure for it to fall down (an obvious boner), but just that you have to heat ALL of it in order to heat PART of it, here's your New Clue:
Steel doesn't conduct heat that well. You can raise one end of a two-foot steel bar an inch wide and a quarter inch thick to over 1500 Celsius and the other end will be at room temperature.
Meanwhile:
QUOTE (metamars+)
QUOTE (Schneibster+)
the crushing made all that concrete HOT! THE ENERGY DIDN'T GO ANYWHERE, IT'S ALL STILL THERE- BUT NOW IT'S HEAT INSTEAD OF KINETIC ENERGY!
Ah, I see what you mean now (I think) - when you stated in another post that
Ah, I see what you mean now (I think) - when you stated in another post that
Again, you lack the personal integrity to admit that you got what you asked for (analysis from the point of view of basic physics) and it was not to your taste.
I guess I hadn't read Andrew Johnson's post too closely....
When I read this, I thought Andrew Johnson was seeking any analysis from a physics perspective that shed light on the situation. I didn't think he or you particularly cared which one, as long as it was serious. I see now that his and your focus is much more narrow.
Well, I personally don't get hung up on "speed of fall" arguments, or those that look to figure out too many details. There's no need to, because the disparity in the energy budget is so decicisive.
I believe that the US Patent office rejects "perpetual motion" machines out of hand, as they contradict conservation of energy. At this point, I have a similar policy towards "explanations" of collapse. After I read only slightly beyond the 2nd chapter of the FEMA Fairy Tale, I saw there was no need to read any more.....
your doing quite a good job at insulting yourself.
your doing quite a good job at insulting yourself.
I have a highschool diploma, and I am not as nice and respectful as Andrew is so *** YOU SHITHEAD. I hope you will realize the truth one day and wake up. If you are willfully trying tocover the truth of 911 up...then I hope you burn in hell for all eternity with the real criminals against the people.
This strikes me as deceptive. Let's assume that the energy figures quoted completely ignore how much heat is generated.*
Perhaps the attendant energy was 1% of the energy of grinding, perhaps is was 1000%. Your intuitive, qualitative argument glosses over this critical consideration.
* Obviously, if the figures subtract out heat energy generated so as to represent a perfectly efficient grinding process, your comment is completely without merit, ito an energy budget.
Perhaps the attendant energy was 1% of the energy of grinding, perhaps is was 1000%. Your intuitive, qualitative argument glosses over this critical consideration.
* Obviously, if the figures subtract out heat energy generated so as to represent a perfectly efficient grinding process, your comment is completely without merit, ito an energy budget.
What on Earth are you blathering about? WHERE THE HELL IS THE ADDITION BACK INTO THE EQUATION OF THE HEAT ADDED TO THE CONCRETE BY GRINDING IT?
I'll tell you where it is: Hoffman swept it under the carpet like it's JUST GONE, and anybody who knows ANYTHING about physics or thermodynamics knows that the First Law of Thermodynamics is ENERGY CONSERVATION. When you do work, you channel energy from a place with a lot of energy to a place with less- and the energy is dissipated as HEAT. On its way to that place with less, WORK GETS DONE. This is BASIC PHYSICS, they taught you about this in TENTH GRADE if you were paying attention instead of shooting spit balls or drawing pictures of the teacher having sex with the principal.
Let me translate that into this situation for you, since you seem to have not the SLIGHTEST VESTIGE OF A CLUE HOW IT WORKS:
The building is falling. Big concrete slabs are grinding against one another and against the core, and the perimeter columns, and the joists and their trusses, and against all the office equipment and so forth. This grinding is caused by the kinetic energy added by the acceleration of gravity, which is what causes things to fall, moving through the concrete and pulverizing it. That energy doesn't get "used up" by pulverizing the concrete- it just changes form, and does work while it changes, as ALL ENERGY THAT IS USED TO DO WORK ALWAYS DOES. The form it changes into in this case is the least usable form of energy: HEAT. And that means when it's done pulverizing the concrete, it is IN the concrete- as, again, HEAT. SO WHERE THE HELL IS THE HEAT FROM THE PULVERIZATION IN HOFFMAN'S ENERGY BUDGET? Simple, he LEFT IT OUT. That's because he doesn't know any more about physics than you do.
Now, I ask you, WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY INSULTING ME BY CALLING THIS CLEAR, CONCISE, ACCURATE STATEMENT OF BASIC PHYSICS "DECEPTIVE?" The only deceptive one here is YOU. Either that, or you are too dumb to be permitted to attempt to dump sand out of a boot with instructions printed on the heel, because you might hurt yourself. Take your choice, what are you, a LIAR or an IDIOT?
I'll tell you where it is: Hoffman swept it under the carpet like it's JUST GONE, and anybody who knows ANYTHING about physics or thermodynamics knows that the First Law of Thermodynamics is ENERGY CONSERVATION. When you do work, you channel energy from a place with a lot of energy to a place with less- and the energy is dissipated as HEAT. On its way to that place with less, WORK GETS DONE. This is BASIC PHYSICS, they taught you about this in TENTH GRADE if you were paying attention instead of shooting spit balls or drawing pictures of the teacher having sex with the principal.
Let me translate that into this situation for you, since you seem to have not the SLIGHTEST VESTIGE OF A CLUE HOW IT WORKS:
The building is falling. Big concrete slabs are grinding against one another and against the core, and the perimeter columns, and the joists and their trusses, and against all the office equipment and so forth. This grinding is caused by the kinetic energy added by the acceleration of gravity, which is what causes things to fall, moving through the concrete and pulverizing it. That energy doesn't get "used up" by pulverizing the concrete- it just changes form, and does work while it changes, as ALL ENERGY THAT IS USED TO DO WORK ALWAYS DOES. The form it changes into in this case is the least usable form of energy: HEAT. And that means when it's done pulverizing the concrete, it is IN the concrete- as, again, HEAT. SO WHERE THE HELL IS THE HEAT FROM THE PULVERIZATION IN HOFFMAN'S ENERGY BUDGET? Simple, he LEFT IT OUT. That's because he doesn't know any more about physics than you do.
Now, I ask you, WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY INSULTING ME BY CALLING THIS CLEAR, CONCISE, ACCURATE STATEMENT OF BASIC PHYSICS "DECEPTIVE?" The only deceptive one here is YOU. Either that, or you are too dumb to be permitted to attempt to dump sand out of a boot with instructions printed on the heel, because you might hurt yourself. Take your choice, what are you, a LIAR or an IDIOT?
QUOTE
A new assertion is not relevant to the disproof of a previous assertion; this is known as "shifting the goalposts." The prior assertions were proven untrue, using precisely the requested methodology: basic physics.
Ah, I see what you mean now (I think) - when you stated in another post that
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| A new assertion is not relevant to the disproof of a previous assertion; this is known as "shifting the goalposts." The prior assertions were proven untrue, using precisely the requested methodology: basic physics. |
Ah, I see what you mean now (I think) - when you stated in another post that
Again, you lack the personal integrity to admit that you got what you asked for (analysis from the point of view of basic physics) and it was not to your taste.
I guess I hadn't read Andrew Johnson's post too closely....
When I read this, I thought Andrew Johnson was seeking any analysis from a physics perspective that shed light on the situation. I didn't think he or you particularly cared which one, as long as it was serious. I see now that his and your focus is much more narrow.
Well, I personally don't get hung up on "speed of fall" arguments, or those that look to figure out too many details. There's no need to, because the disparity in the energy budget is so decicisive.
I believe that the US Patent office rejects "perpetual motion" machines out of hand, as they contradict conservation of energy. At this point, I have a similar policy towards "explanations" of collapse. After I read only slightly beyond the 2nd chapter of the FEMA Fairy Tale, I saw there was no need to read any more.....
Metamars,
Thanks for your posts - you have have done a much better job of addressing the energy calculations than I ever could (which, readers can note, was not the thrust of my original post, but is strongly related to it, of course).
Best Wishes
Andrew
Thanks for your posts - you have have done a much better job of addressing the energy calculations than I ever could (which, readers can note, was not the thrust of my original post, but is strongly related to it, of course).
Best Wishes
Andrew
QUOTE
Metamars,
Thanks for your posts - you have have done a much better job of addressing the energy calculations than I ever could
Thanks for your posts - you have have done a much better job of addressing the energy calculations than I ever could
your doing quite a good job at insulting yourself.
QUOTE (a_ht+Oct 16 2005, 10:34 AM)
QUOTE
Metamars,
Thanks for your posts - you have have done a much better job of addressing the energy calculations than I ever could
Thanks for your posts - you have have done a much better job of addressing the energy calculations than I ever could
your doing quite a good job at insulting yourself.
I have a highschool diploma, and I am not as nice and respectful as Andrew is so *** YOU SHITHEAD. I hope you will realize the truth one day and wake up. If you are willfully trying tocover the truth of 911 up...then I hope you burn in hell for all eternity with the real criminals against the people.
I put many people here on the same category as these people http://www.metacafe.com/watch/35327/who_sh...we_invade_next/
PS Andrew is kind in words because he is insulting you in many other ways.
PS Andrew is kind in words because he is insulting you in many other ways.
QUOTE (a_ht+Oct 16 2005, 03:09 PM)
I put many people here on the same category as these people http://www.metacafe.com/watch/35327/who_sh...we_invade_next/
And you go under this category www.completeanduttertrash/brainwashed/ignorant/pussy/devoidofanykindofreason/warmongering/greedyfilthyswine.com
And you go under this category www.completeanduttertrash/brainwashed/ignorant/pussy/devoidofanykindofreason/warmongering/greedyfilthyswine.com
Read my 6 first post, they all contributed something relevant and positive to this thread. It is only much after that I have became trashfull and irrespective of Andrew (Basically I gave him what he deserved)
Are you ever going to bring something positive to this thread or is your strategy just to be an *** from the start? please specify.
Are you ever going to bring something positive to this thread or is your strategy just to be an *** from the start? please specify.
QUOTE (someguy+Oct 16 2005, 03:21 PM)
QUOTE (a_ht+Oct 16 2005, 03:09 PM)
I put many people here on the same category as these people http://www.metacafe.com/watch/35327/who_sh...we_invade_next/
And you go under this category www.completeanduttertrash/brainwashed/ignorant/pussy/devoidofanykindofreason/warmongering/greedyfilthyswine.com
God will make sure the real enemies pay. Maybe not in this Lifetime...Have a good afterlife send Lucifer my regards. Wake up before it's too late! The truth is in the heart.
I hadn't read it recently, though I'm sure I took a look at it many moons ago.
However, I've now read it carefully, and I'm not impressed. Since I don't understand it completely (it is sketchy, it applies a method of analysis that doesn't seem useful, and doesn't fully justify the value given of a key parameter, viz. yield moment) I will reserve final judgement. In the mean time, before anybody states it's conclusions as gospel, please read on.
I hadn't read it recently, though I'm sure I took a look at it many moons ago.
However, I've now read it carefully, and I'm not impressed. Since I don't understand it completely (it is sketchy, it applies a method of analysis that doesn't seem useful, and doesn't fully justify the value given of a key parameter, viz. yield moment) I will reserve final judgement. In the mean time, before anybody states it's conclusions as gospel, please read on.
"The energy dissipation, particularly that due to the inelastic deformation of columns during the initial drop of the upper part, may be neglected, i.e., the upper part may be assumed to move through distance h almost in a free fall (indeed, the energy dissipated in the columns during the fall is at most equal to 2πX the yield moment of columns, X the number of columns, which is found to be only about 12% of the gravitational potential energy release if the columns were cold, and much less than that at 800°C."
Note that they have nowhere clearly told us how they got their values for the yield moment of the columns, nor have they justified their use of "elastic dynamic analysis" to begin with. Perhaps all civil engineers "know" that this is perfectly valid, and this is why they don't justify it. However, I would like to see the details, and if anybody has them, please provide them. I am certainly no civil engineer.
Nevertheless, if their approach is valid, we should not be able to deduce any contradictions.
However....
First off, note that Zhou gives the mass of the "top" of the North Tower as 58·106 kg. So, they're either using a lighter building, or different floor, or both.
I am assuming collapse occurs on floor 73, and the top of the building falls freely through 5 floors above that. I include the weight of those 5 damaged floors in the weight of the "top".
According to Zhou, at the beginning of the collapse, .12 KE would be expended on cold support beams in making them buckle. So, work done in collapsing 1 floor, at the beginning of the collapse:
W = (.12)#KE = F.y (y is height of 1 floor; # means delta, so #KE reads "delta KE")
so, the downward force which did the work in buckling floor 73 is approx.
F = (.12)#KE/y (yes, I am assuming a constant force over the course of this particular floor)
#KE < #PE = mg#h
m = m(top 38 floors ) = (38 / 111) x 450 x 10 ^ 6 kg = 1.546 x 10 ^ 8 kg
So,
#KE = (1.54 x 10 ^ 8 )( 9.8 ) (5 * 3.79 m) = 2.86 x 10^10
So F = (.12) (2.86 x 10^10) / 3.79 m
= 9.06 x 10^8
(I've ignored the fact that the beams were thicker on the bottom of the towers. However, their approximate analysis, which they are presenting seriously, shows no dependency on height in their Eq(1), so they are apparently ignoring strength gradients, as well)
Collapse of the first "sound" floor (floor #73) can't begin if this downward force is insufficient to buckle that same floor. More precisely, it can't begin if this downward force is insufficient to buckle the columns which support this floor, and which Zhou tells us is absorbing .12KE
So, it's weight exerts a downward force = m(38) g = (1.546 x 10 ^ 8) g
= 1.546 x 10 ^ 8 x 9.8
= 1.52 x 10 ^ 9
So, the additional downward force attributable to the kinetic energy of the mass is only an additional 60%.
9.06 x 10^8 / 1.52 x 10 ^ 9 = 60%
Well shucks, 60% of 38 floors = 23 floors. In other words, this is the weight that floor #50 was bearing day in, day out for 30 years or so, without collapsing. I don't doubt at all that floor #50 may have been built more solidly than floor #73, but I seriously doubt that the difference was so great as to allow collapse of floor #73 in this scenario.
More to the point, perhaps, my understanding is that is standard practice to build skyscrapers such that they can withstand 4 times the maximum anticipated sustainable load. Thus, floor 73 should have been able to withstand a downward force of at least 4 x ( 1.52 x 10 ^ 9 ) = 6.08 x 10 ^ 9 Newton.
The "force deficit" is easily:
1 - [ ( 9.06 x 10^8 + 1.52 x 10 ^ 9 ) / 6.08 x 10 ^ 9 ]
= 60%
Furthermore, the weight of the top that I have been using, m(38), represents the actual weight, not the maximum rated weight. And of course, the maximum weight capacity of a floor in the sense of how much you can put on the part of the floor used for people, office furnishings, etc. before that part of the floor collapses will likely be less than the maximum weight that the vertical load-bearing beams themselves would support.
I don't have good figures for these handy. However, I've never been in or atop a steel structure that couldn't support it's own weight many times over. If you stand on a lawnmower, e.g., you won't crush it, honest. Pack a Volkswagen Beetle inside and outside with with people, etc., etc.
Thus, I believe a more realistic "force deficit" can be obtained by doubling the denominator above, so we are probably talking closer to 80%.
I don't for a minute believe that Zhou's "dynamic elastic" equation is telling us anything useful, though an accurate approximation of "yield moment" would be of great interest. (That is, if "yield moment" means anything like what I think it is.
)
Again, I'm not a civil engineer, so if anybody knows otherwise, please post. I think we need the civil engineers to weigh in here, not so much the physicists.
Since I can use Zhou's paper to contradict what he is trying to show, I don't think it's of much value. (If I've made an error, don't be bashful about pointing it out.) Furthermore, I'm very skeptical that his approach can even tell us anything useful.
I might reconsider this if somebody can show me why "dynamic elastic analysis" is a useful approximation. My guess is that it's only really useful in the sense that taking theta = sin(theta) is useful. If theta is small, you are OK. If a vibration is small (such as from a mild earthquake), then maybe dynamic elastic analysis is valid, also, in the study of steel-framed buildings.
==========================
N.B.
I saw the result of a computer simulation over 25 years ago that modeled what would happen when a steel cube was struck at one corner. Next to the computer generated graphic, there was a real piece of steel that was used for the real world test. The two pictures looked nearly identical.
Let's not kid ourselves. If that was possible then, it's certainly possible now to model a steel frame of the WTC. These analytical exercizes are fun, but there really is a better way to settle the matter.
Zhou's paper appeared only a couple of day's after 911, so they have an excuse for not making such a simulation. I understand NIST has done a lot of modeling, but, as Hoffman has pointed out:
It doesn't take an Einstein to smell a rat.
I don't know exactly how the grinding values were determined. Certainly, heat was created when grinding occured. Did the people who published the figures that Hoffman used include this heat or not? They may have performed these measurements inside a calorimeter, and subtracted out the heat energy. I don't know, and I don't think you know, either.
Suppose the claimed value is 1 Joule per kg
Case 1 - heat was subtracted from the published figures
====================================
Then you know you need at least 1 Joule to get 1 kg of powder. You may need 1.1 J, or you may need 100 J, you really don't know.
In either case, if this was the method used, Hoffman need not concern himself, because the energy sink that the heat represents has not been debited from the KE energy source.
Case 2 - heat was not subtracted from the published figure
======================================
Put 1 Joule into your system, and you will get 1 kg powder (give or take)
However, your waste heat may equal .9999 J, or it may equal .0001 J.
You don't know, a priori. If it's .0001 J, it's negligible, and even if Hoffman ignores it, you are beating him up over nothing.
If it is .9999 J, then you have every right to be concerned, if Hoffman is indeed ignoring it.
However, (and I'm going on memory, here; feel free to double check me) , for the purposes of his calculation, I believe Hoffman ignored the energy needed to grind concrete in a quantitative way, anyway. What he said is that given a bunch of powder (not just concrete, if I recall), how much energy does it take to expand this "gas" the way that was observed. He then mentions, in passing, that it would take such and such energy to grind the concrete. *
As I recall, the energy he quotes for grinding concrete is something like 5% of the energy sink represented by the expanding dust cloud, anyway. Thus, you are raising a stink over nothing. If my memory is correct in this regard, it certainly doesn't change the conclusion.
Oh, you really should stop creating a stink over energy sinks!
Since the phrase "stikes me as deceptive" offends you, consider it retracted, and substitute the hopefully less antagonistic phrase "unclear or mistaken".
* Actually, I'm convinced that in a "collapse" scenario, the energy necessary to create powder from concrete far exceeds what it takes to produce it in a grinder, but I'll omit my essentially intuitive arguments.
And you go under this category www.completeanduttertrash/brainwashed/ignorant/pussy/devoidofanykindofreason/warmongering/greedyfilthyswine.com
God will make sure the real enemies pay. Maybe not in this Lifetime...Have a good afterlife send Lucifer my regards. Wake up before it's too late! The truth is in the heart.
QUOTE (newguy+Oct 14 2005, 02:04 AM)
...
a quick clip of George W. Bush lying through his teeth about the first plane crash on September 11th, then please visit the link below:
www.whatreallyhappened.com/bushlie.html
...
Aside from the fact that there was no TV in the school, contrary to his claim, the video footage of the first plane hitting the towers wasn't even available until the following day. Let me know what you think. Thanks.
I think that it, like some of the silliness I've seen in this thread, is outright disinformation. Using emotion as a gatekeeper to say, in effect, "Nothing to see here, citizen, move along; just Bush lying again."
Where is the evidence that Bush was lying? (Or for that matter, when "Paul Thompson" of cooperativeresearch.org says that Bush's witness statement is "impossible"?) Just because it may, for some people, feel good to call Bush a liar or to think of him that way (or label him that way and let the label do their thinking for them!) does not make it right to label the statement as a lie without any supportive evidence.
Just because it was impossible for you or I to have seen what Bush says he saw on "TV", when he said he saw it, does not mean that it was impossible for POTUS, who has access to what amounts to his own global video network.
Click here for a somewhat keener analysis of Bush's incriminating 9/11 witness statements
a quick clip of George W. Bush lying through his teeth about the first plane crash on September 11th, then please visit the link below:
www.whatreallyhappened.com/bushlie.html
...
Aside from the fact that there was no TV in the school, contrary to his claim, the video footage of the first plane hitting the towers wasn't even available until the following day. Let me know what you think. Thanks.
I think that it, like some of the silliness I've seen in this thread, is outright disinformation. Using emotion as a gatekeeper to say, in effect, "Nothing to see here, citizen, move along; just Bush lying again."
Where is the evidence that Bush was lying? (Or for that matter, when "Paul Thompson" of cooperativeresearch.org says that Bush's witness statement is "impossible"?) Just because it may, for some people, feel good to call Bush a liar or to think of him that way (or label him that way and let the label do their thinking for them!) does not make it right to label the statement as a lie without any supportive evidence.
Just because it was impossible for you or I to have seen what Bush says he saw on "TV", when he said he saw it, does not mean that it was impossible for POTUS, who has access to what amounts to his own global video network.
Click here for a somewhat keener analysis of Bush's incriminating 9/11 witness statements
QUOTE
3. Did you completely miss the fact that the top five stories of the building falling on the one below represents at least a thirty times overload of its ultimate failure strength, by the most conservative estimates, WITHOUT ANY WEAKENING OF IT WHATSOEVER?
4. Did you fail to understand what will happen when you overload something THIRTY TIMES BEYOND ITS ULTIMATE FAILURE STRENGTH?
5. Did you even READ the paper linked at the beginning of this thread, much less UNDERSTAND it?
4. Did you fail to understand what will happen when you overload something THIRTY TIMES BEYOND ITS ULTIMATE FAILURE STRENGTH?
5. Did you even READ the paper linked at the beginning of this thread, much less UNDERSTAND it?
I hadn't read it recently, though I'm sure I took a look at it many moons ago.
However, I've now read it carefully, and I'm not impressed. Since I don't understand it completely (it is sketchy, it applies a method of analysis that doesn't seem useful, and doesn't fully justify the value given of a key parameter, viz. yield moment) I will reserve final judgement. In the mean time, before anybody states it's conclusions as gospel, please read on.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| 3. Did you completely miss the fact that the top five stories of the building falling on the one below represents at least a thirty times overload of its ultimate failure strength, by the most conservative estimates, WITHOUT ANY WEAKENING OF IT WHATSOEVER? 4. Did you fail to understand what will happen when you overload something THIRTY TIMES BEYOND ITS ULTIMATE FAILURE STRENGTH? 5. Did you even READ the paper linked at the beginning of this thread, much less UNDERSTAND it? |
I hadn't read it recently, though I'm sure I took a look at it many moons ago.
However, I've now read it carefully, and I'm not impressed. Since I don't understand it completely (it is sketchy, it applies a method of analysis that doesn't seem useful, and doesn't fully justify the value given of a key parameter, viz. yield moment) I will reserve final judgement. In the mean time, before anybody states it's conclusions as gospel, please read on.
"The energy dissipation, particularly that due to the inelastic deformation of columns during the initial drop of the upper part, may be neglected, i.e., the upper part may be assumed to move through distance h almost in a free fall (indeed, the energy dissipated in the columns during the fall is at most equal to 2πX the yield moment of columns, X the number of columns, which is found to be only about 12% of the gravitational potential energy release if the columns were cold, and much less than that at 800°C."
Note that they have nowhere clearly told us how they got their values for the yield moment of the columns, nor have they justified their use of "elastic dynamic analysis" to begin with. Perhaps all civil engineers "know" that this is perfectly valid, and this is why they don't justify it. However, I would like to see the details, and if anybody has them, please provide them. I am certainly no civil engineer.
Nevertheless, if their approach is valid, we should not be able to deduce any contradictions.
However....
First off, note that Zhou gives the mass of the "top" of the North Tower as 58·106 kg. So, they're either using a lighter building, or different floor, or both.
I am assuming collapse occurs on floor 73, and the top of the building falls freely through 5 floors above that. I include the weight of those 5 damaged floors in the weight of the "top".
According to Zhou, at the beginning of the collapse, .12 KE would be expended on cold support beams in making them buckle. So, work done in collapsing 1 floor, at the beginning of the collapse:
W = (.12)#KE = F.y (y is height of 1 floor; # means delta, so #KE reads "delta KE")
so, the downward force which did the work in buckling floor 73 is approx.
F = (.12)#KE/y (yes, I am assuming a constant force over the course of this particular floor)
#KE < #PE = mg#h
m = m(top 38 floors ) = (38 / 111) x 450 x 10 ^ 6 kg = 1.546 x 10 ^ 8 kg
So,
#KE = (1.54 x 10 ^ 8 )( 9.8 ) (5 * 3.79 m) = 2.86 x 10^10
So F = (.12) (2.86 x 10^10) / 3.79 m
= 9.06 x 10^8
(I've ignored the fact that the beams were thicker on the bottom of the towers. However, their approximate analysis, which they are presenting seriously, shows no dependency on height in their Eq(1), so they are apparently ignoring strength gradients, as well)
Collapse of the first "sound" floor (floor #73) can't begin if this downward force is insufficient to buckle that same floor. More precisely, it can't begin if this downward force is insufficient to buckle the columns which support this floor, and which Zhou tells us is absorbing .12KE
So, it's weight exerts a downward force = m(38) g = (1.546 x 10 ^ 8) g
= 1.546 x 10 ^ 8 x 9.8
= 1.52 x 10 ^ 9
So, the additional downward force attributable to the kinetic energy of the mass is only an additional 60%.
9.06 x 10^8 / 1.52 x 10 ^ 9 = 60%
Well shucks, 60% of 38 floors = 23 floors. In other words, this is the weight that floor #50 was bearing day in, day out for 30 years or so, without collapsing. I don't doubt at all that floor #50 may have been built more solidly than floor #73, but I seriously doubt that the difference was so great as to allow collapse of floor #73 in this scenario.
More to the point, perhaps, my understanding is that is standard practice to build skyscrapers such that they can withstand 4 times the maximum anticipated sustainable load. Thus, floor 73 should have been able to withstand a downward force of at least 4 x ( 1.52 x 10 ^ 9 ) = 6.08 x 10 ^ 9 Newton.
The "force deficit" is easily:
1 - [ ( 9.06 x 10^8 + 1.52 x 10 ^ 9 ) / 6.08 x 10 ^ 9 ]
= 60%
Furthermore, the weight of the top that I have been using, m(38), represents the actual weight, not the maximum rated weight. And of course, the maximum weight capacity of a floor in the sense of how much you can put on the part of the floor used for people, office furnishings, etc. before that part of the floor collapses will likely be less than the maximum weight that the vertical load-bearing beams themselves would support.
I don't have good figures for these handy. However, I've never been in or atop a steel structure that couldn't support it's own weight many times over. If you stand on a lawnmower, e.g., you won't crush it, honest. Pack a Volkswagen Beetle inside and outside with with people, etc., etc.
Thus, I believe a more realistic "force deficit" can be obtained by doubling the denominator above, so we are probably talking closer to 80%.
I don't for a minute believe that Zhou's "dynamic elastic" equation is telling us anything useful, though an accurate approximation of "yield moment" would be of great interest. (That is, if "yield moment" means anything like what I think it is.
Again, I'm not a civil engineer, so if anybody knows otherwise, please post. I think we need the civil engineers to weigh in here, not so much the physicists.
Since I can use Zhou's paper to contradict what he is trying to show, I don't think it's of much value. (If I've made an error, don't be bashful about pointing it out.) Furthermore, I'm very skeptical that his approach can even tell us anything useful.
I might reconsider this if somebody can show me why "dynamic elastic analysis" is a useful approximation. My guess is that it's only really useful in the sense that taking theta = sin(theta) is useful. If theta is small, you are OK. If a vibration is small (such as from a mild earthquake), then maybe dynamic elastic analysis is valid, also, in the study of steel-framed buildings.
==========================
N.B.
I saw the result of a computer simulation over 25 years ago that modeled what would happen when a steel cube was struck at one corner. Next to the computer generated graphic, there was a real piece of steel that was used for the real world test. The two pictures looked nearly identical.
Let's not kid ourselves. If that was possible then, it's certainly possible now to model a steel frame of the WTC. These analytical exercizes are fun, but there really is a better way to settle the matter.
Zhou's paper appeared only a couple of day's after 911, so they have an excuse for not making such a simulation. I understand NIST has done a lot of modeling, but, as Hoffman has pointed out:
QUOTE
So we get detailed computer simulations of how the planes were shredded by the impacts, but when it comes to the collapses, the most quantitative thing we get is "tremendous energy of the falling building section." Why are there no calculations of the approximage amount of energy?
It doesn't take an Einstein to smell a rat.
QUOTE
What on Earth are you blathering about? WHERE THE HELL IS THE ADDITION BACK INTO THE EQUATION OF THE HEAT ADDED TO THE CONCRETE BY GRINDING IT?
I don't know exactly how the grinding values were determined. Certainly, heat was created when grinding occured. Did the people who published the figures that Hoffman used include this heat or not? They may have performed these measurements inside a calorimeter, and subtracted out the heat energy. I don't know, and I don't think you know, either.
Suppose the claimed value is 1 Joule per kg
Case 1 - heat was subtracted from the published figures
====================================
Then you know you need at least 1 Joule to get 1 kg of powder. You may need 1.1 J, or you may need 100 J, you really don't know.
In either case, if this was the method used, Hoffman need not concern himself, because the energy sink that the heat represents has not been debited from the KE energy source.
Case 2 - heat was not subtracted from the published figure
======================================
Put 1 Joule into your system, and you will get 1 kg powder (give or take)
However, your waste heat may equal .9999 J, or it may equal .0001 J.
You don't know, a priori. If it's .0001 J, it's negligible, and even if Hoffman ignores it, you are beating him up over nothing.
If it is .9999 J, then you have every right to be concerned, if Hoffman is indeed ignoring it.
However, (and I'm going on memory, here; feel free to double check me) , for the purposes of his calculation, I believe Hoffman ignored the energy needed to grind concrete in a quantitative way, anyway. What he said is that given a bunch of powder (not just concrete, if I recall), how much energy does it take to expand this "gas" the way that was observed. He then mentions, in passing, that it would take such and such energy to grind the concrete. *
As I recall, the energy he quotes for grinding concrete is something like 5% of the energy sink represented by the expanding dust cloud, anyway. Thus, you are raising a stink over nothing. If my memory is correct in this regard, it certainly doesn't change the conclusion.
Oh, you really should stop creating a stink over energy sinks!
Since the phrase "stikes me as deceptive" offends you, consider it retracted, and substitute the hopefully less antagonistic phrase "unclear or mistaken".
* Actually, I'm convinced that in a "collapse" scenario, the energy necessary to create powder from concrete far exceeds what it takes to produce it in a grinder, but I'll omit my essentially intuitive arguments.
QUOTE (metamars+)
I don't know exactly how the grinding values were determined. Certainly, heat was created when grinding occured. Did the people who published the figures that Hoffman used include this heat or not?
You've completely missed the point. He states that the concrete has to be heated without ever stating that it would have already been hot; look for yourself. He puts the heating of the concrete on the debit side, and never mentions it would already have been hot from being ground up into powder. If he had, his cute little piece of accounting at the bottom would have included the fact that the energy spent grinding the concrete gets put back in as energy that heats it up.
QUOTE (metamars+)
They may have performed these measurements inside a calorimeter, and subtracted out the heat energy.
Yo, numb nutz, they don't have to measure anything in a calorimeter, ENERGY IS CONSERVED and however much energy gets put into griding up the concrete, that much energy will get put INTO the concrete. The specific heat of the concrete will determine how much this energy heats it up- in other words, the the concrete's average temperature.
Go look up "specific heat." Better yet, go look up "James Prescott Joule" and find out about the experiments he ran where he showed that stirring a pot of water with a paddle heated the water up. If you don't see the relevance of that to the problem at hand, you're not bright enough to tie your shoes by yourself.
OK, I'm looking. Here is Hoffman's energy budget:
OK, I'm looking. Here is Hoffman's energy budget:
KWH source or sink
+ 111,000 falling of mass (1.97e11 g falling average of 207 m)
- 135,000 crushing of concrete (9e10 g to 60 micron powder)
ignoring water vaporization
- 400,000 heating of gasses (2e9 g air from 300 to 1020 K)
- 11,300,000 heating of suspended concrete (9e10 g from 300 to 1020 K)
assuming water vaporization sink was not supply-limited
- 1,496,000 vaporization of water (2.38e9 g water)
- 41,000 heating of gasses (2e9 g air from 300 to 373 K)
- 1,145,000 heating of suspended concrete (9e10 g from 300 to 373 K)
Certainly, the only energy source listed above is the 111,000 due to falling mass. This is insufficient to even complete the grinding of the concrete, which tells you immediately that there's something wrong , since, as you keep reminding us, energy must be conserved, and all the rest of items are deficits.
Let's suppose that ALL of the 135,000 KWH concrete grinding energy sink represents heat energy. In other words, let's pretend that concrete is '100% fragile' - a ludicrous assumption, especially considering it's status as a building material, but is as close as we can get to justifying your concern. So just heating it causes it to fall apart into 60 micron powder.
So, we now have 9e10 g concrete powder which you say is very hot, and the amount of heat added to the concrete equals 135,000 KWH. There really wasn't enough KE in the falling mass to even get us this far, but let's pretend that there was. (Let's assume that Hoffman undercounted the mass, e.g.)
How hot did we make this concrete?
avg specific heat of concrete is .925 J / g . deg Celcius
( ref: http://www.cement.ca/cement.nsf/0/fec0c794...ocument&Click=)
So delta T = (1 / .925 ) (135, 000 KWH) ( 3600000 J per KWH ) ( 1 / 9e10g)
= 1.081 x 5.40
= 5.84 degrees Celcius
Taking the temperature of the concrete before crushing/heating to be 68F, this is 293 Kelvin.
So after crushing/heating, we are up to a whopping 299 kelvin.
Now consider the lower limit value of concrete heating of the energy sinks that Hoffman listed (i.e., not the much higher one that assumes that "water vaporization sink was not supply-limited"):
- 1,145,000 heating of suspended concrete (9e10 g from 300 to 373 K)
Note that his base point is 300K. So, he does not "owe you" any heat energy. (Actually, you owe him 1 deg K, but who's counting?
)
Adding this sink and
- 400,000 heating of gasses (2e9 g air from 300 to 1020 K)
you are in deficit by 1,545,000 KWH.
How many collapsing towers is this worth?
1,545,000 / 111,000 = 13.92
Since we all agree that there was not this many WTC towers, and since you believe in conservation of energy, please tell us where this energy comes from.
Bearing in mind, of course, that according to your own calculations, the kinetic energy of the plane plus the chemical energy of the jet fuel was about equal to the PE of a single building.
I think it's generally quite obvious who is dumb and who is not, just by giving a fair reading to the posts. Your shrill tone and insults may obscure the untenability of your position, but you certainly don't fool me.
Has it even occurred to you that you can communicate without being obnoxious?
How about the fuel? The 767-223 was carrying some 75,000l of fuel. This has an energy content of about 35MJ/l, giving it a total energy content of 2,625,000,000,000J, or 2.625TJ. This is 730,000kWh. Almost all of this vast supply of energy was dumped inside the building;
Your quote of "almost all" is vague, at best.
The definition of almost all would be, what, 85%, 90%, 95%??
How could the plane (and its contents, including its fuel) be ignited, and explode in a huge fireball, and yet still manage to retain "almost all" of its fuel load, to then damage the structure of the towers?
I don't have time for a detailed look/reply, but a quick observation.
If you take a larger energy source due to converted PE of the mass of the buildings, you will end up with more mass to expand, which presumably you have to heat to about the same temperature. (is this correct? I really don't remember much of my chemistry.) In fact, the relationship between mass and PE is linear. So, again, even if you ignore the energy needed to "grind" the other solids into 60 micron dust, you may have made the deficit larger, not smaller.
Also, playing devil's advocate, how justified is it to use the ideal gas law in this situation? I don't recall Hoffman fully justifying the whole approach, though I may have missed it. Here is where we could use the input of chemists. Certainly the dust cloud LOOKS like a gas, but I'm not sure this justifies treating it like one.
It may turn out that using the ideal gas law is as valid an approximation as "elastic dynamic analysis".
For that matter, it may turn out that you need MORE energy to expand a dust cloud than a correspondingly large gas cloud.
Regarding creep: please explain exactly what that is and why we should be concerned about it.
How about the fuel? The 767-223 was carrying some 75,000l of fuel. This has an energy content of about 35MJ/l, giving it a total energy content of 2,625,000,000,000J, or 2.625TJ. This is 730,000kWh. Almost all of this vast supply of energy was dumped inside the building;
In your quote you make the statement that 75000L was added to the energy budget... and that "almost all" was dumped into the building.
First (as I earlier questioned) where do you get this figure from? I have seen no quantative analysis which allows for such a high number of gallons of fuel being added to the mix. I have provided FEMA's report on WTC 1 & 2 which contradicts your number (in the extreme)...
http://www.house.gov/science/hot/wtc/wtc-report/WTC_ch2.pdf
Here are some calculations based upon FEMA's estimate of fuel, regarding how much heat would be input to the equation...
This is a generous postulation, given that you wish to ignore all the heat which was expelled from the buildings in carrying the smoke away from the building. That heat is lost to the PE, yet you seem to want to negate this loss, and pretend that there was no loss here, and that the total energy input from fuel remained in the building. OK, for the sake of discussion, we will pretend that this is so. Carrying on then...
This is a generous postulation, given that you wish to ignore all the heat which was expelled from the buildings in carrying the smoke away from the building. That heat is lost to the PE, yet you seem to want to negate this loss, and pretend that there was no loss here, and that the total energy input from fuel remained in the building. OK, for the sake of discussion, we will pretend that this is so. Carrying on then...
Note that a gallon of jet fuel weighs about 3.1 kilograms, hence 3,500 gallons weighs 3,500 x 3.1 = 10,850 kgs.
Jet fuel is a colorless, combustible, straight run petroleum distillate liquid. Its principal uses are as an ingredient in lamp oils, charcoal starter fluids, jet engine fuels and insecticides.
It is also know as, fuel oil #1, kerosene, range oil, coal oil and aviation fuel.
It is comprised of hydrocarbons with a carbon range of C9 - C17. The hydrocarbons are mainly alkanes CnH2n+2, with n ranging from 9 to 17.
It has a flash point within the range 42° C - 72° C (110° F - 162° F).
And an ignition temperature of 210° C (410° F).
Depending on the supply of oxygen, jet fuel burns by one of three chemical reactions:
(1) CnH2n+2 + (3n+1)/2 O2 => n CO2 + (n + 1) H2O
(2) CnH2n+2 + (2n+1)/2 O2 => n CO + (n + 1) H2O
(3) CnH2n+2 + (n+1)/2 O2 => n C + (n + 1) H2O
Reaction (1) occurs when jet fuel is well mixed with air before being burnt, as for example, in jet engines.
Reactions (2) and (3) occur when a pool of jet fuel burns. When reaction (3) occurs the carbon formed shows up as soot in the flame. This makes the smoke very dark.
In the aircraft crashes at the World Trade Center, the impact (with the aircraft going from 500 or 600 mph to zero) would have throughly mixed the fuel that entered the building with the limited amount of air available within. In fact, it is likely that all the fuel was turned into a flammable mist. However, for sake of argument we will assume that 3,500 gallons of the jet fuel did in fact form a pool fire. This means that it burnt according to reactions (2) and (3). Also note that the flammable mist would have burnt according to reactions (2) and (3), as the quantity of oxygen within the building was quite limited.
Since we do not know the exact quantities of oxygen available to the fire, we will assume that the combustion was perfectly efficient, that is, that the entire quantity of jet fuel burnt via reaction (1), even though we know that this was not so. This generous assumption will give a temperature that we know will be higher than the actual temperature of the fire attributable to the jet fuel.
We need to know that the (net) calorific value of jet fuel when burnt via reaction (1) is 42-44 MJ/kg. The calorific value of a fuel is the amount of energy released when the fuel is burnt. We will use the higher value of 44 MJ/kg as this will lead to a higher maximum temperature than the lower value of 42 (and we wish to continue being outrageously generous in our assumptions).
For a cleaner presentation and simpler calculations we will also assume that our hydrocarbons are of the form CnH2n. The dropping of the 2 hydrogen atoms does not make much difference to the final result and the interested reader can easily recalculate the figures for a slightly more accurate result. So we are now assuming the equation:
(4) CnH2n + 3n/2 O2 => n CO2 + n H2O
However, this model, does not take into account that the reaction is proceeding in air, which is only partly oxygen.
Dry air is 79% nitrogen and 21% oxygen (by volume). Normal air has a moisture content from 0 to 4%. We will include the water vapor and the other minor atmospheric gases with the nitrogen.
So the ratio of the main atmospheric gases, oxygen and nitrogen, is 1 : 3.76. In molar terms:
Air = O2 + 3.76 N2.
Because oxygen comes mixed with nitrogen, we have to include it in the equations. Even though it does not react, it is "along for the ride" and will absorb heat, affecting the overall heat balance. Thus we need to use the equation:
(5) CnH2n + 3n/2(O2 + 3.76 N2) => n CO2 + n H2O + 5.64n N2
From this equation we see that the molar ratio of CnH2n to that of the products is:
{see the equation in the link provided below}
In the conversion of moles to kilograms we have assumed the atomic weights of hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen and oxygen are 1, 12, 14 and 16 respectively.
Now each of the towers contained 96,000 (short) tons of steel. That is an average of 96,000/117 = 820 tons per floor. Lets suppose that the bottom floors contained roughly twice the amount of steel of the upper floors (since the lower floors had to carry more weight). So we estimate that the lower floors contained about 1,100 tons of steel and the upper floors about 550 tons = 550 x 907.2 ≈ 500,000 kgs. We will assume that the floors hit by the aircraft contained the lower estimate of 500,000 kgs of steel. This generously underestimates the quantity of steel in these floors, and once again leads to a higher estimate of the maximum temperature.
Each story had a floor slab and a ceiling slab. These slabs were 207 feet wide, 207 feet deep and 4 (in parts 5) inches thick and were constructed from lightweight concrete. So each slab contained 207 x 207 x 1/3 = 14,283 cubic feet of concrete. Now a cubic foot of lightweight concrete weighs about 50kg, hence each slab weighed 714,150 ≈ 700,000 kgs. Together, the floor and ceiling slabs weighed some 1,400,000 kgs.
So, now we take all the ingredients and estimate a maximum temperature to which they could have been heated by 3,500 gallons of jet fuel. We will call this maximum temperature T. Since the calorific value of jet fuel is 44 MJ/kg. We know that 3,500 gallons = 31,000 kgs of jet fuel
will release 10,850 x 44,000,000 = 477,400,000,000 Joules of energy.
This is the total quantity of energy available to heat the ingredients to the temperature T. But what is the temperature T? To find out, we first have to calculate the amount of energy absorbed by each of the ingredients.
That is, we need to calculate the energy needed to raise:
39,857 kilograms of water vapor to the temperature T* C,
97,429 kilograms of carbon dioxide to the temperature T* C
349,680 kilograms of nitrogen to the temperature T* C
500,000 kilograms of steel to the temperature T* C
1,400,000 kilograms of concrete to the temperature T* C
To calculate the energy needed to heat the above quantities, we need their specific heats. The specific heat of a substance is the amount of energy needed to raise one kilogram of the substance by one degree centigrade.
Substance --- Specific Heat [J/kg*C]
Nitrogen 1,038
Water Vapour 1,690
Carbon Dioxide 845
Lightweight Concrete 800
Steel 450
Substituting these values into the above, we obtain:
39,857 x 1,690 x (T - 25) Joules are needed to heat the water vapor from 25° to T° C
97,429 x 845 x (T - 25) Joules are needed to heat the carbon dioxide from 25° to T° C
349,680 x 1,038 x (T - 25) Joules are needed to heat the nitrogen from 25° to T° C,
500,000 x 450 x (T - 25) Joules are needed to heat the steel from 25° to T° C,
1,400,000 x 800 x (T - 25) Joules are needed to heat the concrete from 25° to T° C
The assumption that the specific heats are constant over the temperature range 25° - T° C, is a good approximation if T turns out to be relatively small (as it does). For larger values of T this assumption once again leads to a higher maximum temperature (as the specific heat for these substances increases with temperature). We have assumed the initial temperature of the surroundings to be 25° C. The quantity, (T - 25)° C, is the temperature rise.
So the amount of energy needed to raise one floor to the temperature T° C is
= (39,857 x 1,690 + 97,429 x 845 + 349,680 x 1,038 + 500,000 x 450 + 1,400,000 x 800) x (T - 25)
= (67,358,330 + 82,327,505 + 362,967,840 + 225,000,000 + 1,120,000,000) x (T - 25) Joules
= 1,857,653,675 x (T - 25) Joules.
Since the amount of energy available to heat this floor is 477,400,000,000 Joules, we have that
1,857,653,675 x (T - 25) = 477,400,000,000
1,857,653,675 x T - 46,441,341,875 = 477,400,000,000
Therefore T = (477,400,000,000 + 46,441,341,875)/1,857,653,675 = 282° C (540° F).
So, the jet fuel could (at the very most) have only added T - 25 = 282 - 25 = 257° C (495° F) to the temperature of the typical office fire that developed.
Remember, this figure is a huge over-estimate, as (among other things) it assumes that the steel and concrete had an unlimited amount of time to absorb the heat, whereas in reality, the jet fuel fire was all over in one or two minutes, and the energy not absorbed by the concrete and steel within this brief period (that is, almost all of it) would have been vented to the outside world.
Summarizing:
We have assumed that the entire 3,500 gallons of jet fuel was confined to just one floor of the World Trade Center, that the jet fuel burnt with perfect efficency, that no hot gases left this floor, that no heat escaped this floor by conduction and that the steel and concrete had an unlimited amount of time to absorb all the heat.
Then it is impossible that the jet fuel, by itself, raised the temperature of this floor more than 257° C (495° F).
Now this temperature is nowhere near high enough to even begin explaining the World Trade Center Tower collapse.
It is not even close to the first critical temperature of 600° C (1,100° F) where steel loses about half its strength and it is nowhere near the quotes of 1500° C that we constantly read about in our lying media.
"In the mid-1990s British Steel and the Building Research Establishment performed a series of six experiments at Cardington to investigate the behavior of steel frame buildings. These experiments were conducted in a simulated, eight-story building. Secondary steel beams were not protected. Despite the temperature of the steel beams reaching 800-900° C (1,500-1,700° F) in three of the tests (well above the traditionally assumed critical temperature of 600° C (1,100° F), no collapse was observed in any of the six experiments."
Quote from the FEMA report (Appendix A).
Recalling that the North Tower suffered no major structural damage from the intense office fire of February 23, 1975, we can conclude that the ensuing office fires of September 11, 2001, also did little extra damage to the towers.
Conclusion:
The jet fuel fires played almost no role in the collapse of the World Trade Center.
Source : http://guardian.250free.com/wtc/how-hot.htm
It seems to me that your statement (based upon your calcs) of 2,625,000,000,000J of heat energy which you have added to the 'energy budget' is highly exagerrated.
Would you care to rework your calculations to reflect a realistic amount of heat to be added to the energy budget? I somehow think that Hoffmans energy budget is much more reasonable than that which you have proposed.
Did you read the FEMA report? The 3500 gal figure comes from... approximately half of the 7000 gal 'flowing away' from the impact zone unburned. How do we arrive at that conclusion? Because as FEMA states in section...
2.2.1.2 Fire Development
Did you read the FEMA report? The 3500 gal figure comes from... approximately half of the 7000 gal 'flowing away' from the impact zone unburned. How do we arrive at that conclusion? Because as FEMA states in section...
2.2.1.2 Fire Development
If one assumes that approximately 3,000 gallons of fuel were consumed in the initial fireballs, then the remainder either escaped the impact floors in the manners described above or was consumed by the fire on the impact floors. If half flowed away, then approximately 4,000 gallons remained on the impact floors to be consumed in the fires that followed. The jet fuel in the aerosol would have burned out as fast as the flame could spread through it, igniting almost every combustible on the floors involved. Fuel that fell to the floor and did not flow out of the building would have burned as a pool or spill fire at the point where it came to rest.
Source: http://www.house.gov/science/hot/wtc/wtc-report/WTC_ch2.pdf
Note that I have corrected FEMA's typo regarding their subtraction. 10,000 - 3,000 = 7,000... 1/2X 7,000 = 4,000 ???
Surely they mean 3500. That is where we get the 3500 gal estimate to begin with.
FEMA seems notorious for "typos"...
I see FEMA has done a major renovation to their online library... took me a while to find the new location. Danged internet - someone's always changing their links.
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photolibr...photo_search.do
While doing revisions to their site, they don't seem to have changed their opinion on the weight of the 'Amazing Flying Columns' that fell from the sky ...(blown by the winds of 9/11 into WFC 3)...
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/WFC3_sm.jpg
The caption reads,
Actually, I believe that the figure 600,000 lb should read 60,000 lbs... but that's still 30 tons!
Here is a closer look...
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/WFC3_close.jpg
I wonder how much energy it would take to propel a "600,000" (60,000) lb piece of steel debris over 400 feet laterally from it's point of origin?
Another example of these Amazing Flying Columns can be found at 130 Liberty Street (Bankers Trust Building).FEMA has a photo of it in their library at this page...
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photolibr...ails.do?id=3988
The caption here reads,
Actually, I believe that the figure 600,000 lb should read 60,000 lbs... but that's still 30 tons!
Here is a closer look...
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/WFC3_close.jpg
I wonder how much energy it would take to propel a "600,000" (60,000) lb piece of steel debris over 400 feet laterally from it's point of origin?
Another example of these Amazing Flying Columns can be found at 130 Liberty Street (Bankers Trust Building).FEMA has a photo of it in their library at this page...
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photolibr...ails.do?id=3988
The caption here reads, New York, NY, September 20, 2001 -- This building was damaged by the explosions caused by terrorist attacks near the World Trade Center site. Photo by Mike Rieger/ FEMA News Photo
I didn't know that terrorists had caused explosions at WTC !!???
Surely they don't mean these columns had been blown to this location in the "explosion" when the aircraft impacted the towers???
Sorry, I'll have to look at the rest of your figures later. I'm not ignoring the fuel load of the office contents, I just haven't addressed those so far, and will try to get to those later.
Cheers
Go look up "specific heat." Better yet, go look up "James Prescott Joule" and find out about the experiments he ran where he showed that stirring a pot of water with a paddle heated the water up. If you don't see the relevance of that to the problem at hand, you're not bright enough to tie your shoes by yourself.
QUOTE (metamars+)
I don't know, and I don't think you know, either.
Speak for yourself; just because you're dumb enough not to know what CONSERVATION OF ENERGY means, doesn't mean I am.
I will point out that this is the THIRD TIME I am telling you EXACTLY THE SAME THING, and you STILL DON'T GET IT. That's because you're dumb.
I will point out that this is the THIRD TIME I am telling you EXACTLY THE SAME THING, and you STILL DON'T GET IT. That's because you're dumb.
Schneibster
It seems like you're pulling your hair out!
Maybe you would appreciate a break from the physics debate of WTC1 and WTC2 collapses, and would care to give us your opinion on what happened with WTC7?
I say "maybe", because you're possibly just as likely to insult and belittle me just for having asked this "non-physics" question of you...
...but try not to if you can help it...(insult and offend that is...).
It seems like you're pulling your hair out!
Maybe you would appreciate a break from the physics debate of WTC1 and WTC2 collapses, and would care to give us your opinion on what happened with WTC7?
I say "maybe", because you're possibly just as likely to insult and belittle me just for having asked this "non-physics" question of you...
...but try not to if you can help it...(insult and offend that is...).
QUOTE
You've completely missed the point. He states that the concrete has to be heated without ever stating that it would have already been hot; look for yourself.
OK, I'm looking. Here is Hoffman's energy budget:
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| You've completely missed the point. He states that the concrete has to be heated without ever stating that it would have already been hot; look for yourself. |
OK, I'm looking. Here is Hoffman's energy budget:
KWH source or sink
+ 111,000 falling of mass (1.97e11 g falling average of 207 m)
- 135,000 crushing of concrete (9e10 g to 60 micron powder)
ignoring water vaporization
- 400,000 heating of gasses (2e9 g air from 300 to 1020 K)
- 11,300,000 heating of suspended concrete (9e10 g from 300 to 1020 K)
assuming water vaporization sink was not supply-limited
- 1,496,000 vaporization of water (2.38e9 g water)
- 41,000 heating of gasses (2e9 g air from 300 to 373 K)
- 1,145,000 heating of suspended concrete (9e10 g from 300 to 373 K)
Certainly, the only energy source listed above is the 111,000 due to falling mass. This is insufficient to even complete the grinding of the concrete, which tells you immediately that there's something wrong , since, as you keep reminding us, energy must be conserved, and all the rest of items are deficits.
Let's suppose that ALL of the 135,000 KWH concrete grinding energy sink represents heat energy. In other words, let's pretend that concrete is '100% fragile' - a ludicrous assumption, especially considering it's status as a building material, but is as close as we can get to justifying your concern. So just heating it causes it to fall apart into 60 micron powder.
So, we now have 9e10 g concrete powder which you say is very hot, and the amount of heat added to the concrete equals 135,000 KWH. There really wasn't enough KE in the falling mass to even get us this far, but let's pretend that there was. (Let's assume that Hoffman undercounted the mass, e.g.)
How hot did we make this concrete?
avg specific heat of concrete is .925 J / g . deg Celcius
( ref: http://www.cement.ca/cement.nsf/0/fec0c794...ocument&Click=)
So delta T = (1 / .925 ) (135, 000 KWH) ( 3600000 J per KWH ) ( 1 / 9e10g)
= 1.081 x 5.40
= 5.84 degrees Celcius
Taking the temperature of the concrete before crushing/heating to be 68F, this is 293 Kelvin.
So after crushing/heating, we are up to a whopping 299 kelvin.
Now consider the lower limit value of concrete heating of the energy sinks that Hoffman listed (i.e., not the much higher one that assumes that "water vaporization sink was not supply-limited"):
- 1,145,000 heating of suspended concrete (9e10 g from 300 to 373 K)
Note that his base point is 300K. So, he does not "owe you" any heat energy. (Actually, you owe him 1 deg K, but who's counting?
Adding this sink and
- 400,000 heating of gasses (2e9 g air from 300 to 1020 K)
you are in deficit by 1,545,000 KWH.
How many collapsing towers is this worth?
1,545,000 / 111,000 = 13.92
Since we all agree that there was not this many WTC towers, and since you believe in conservation of energy, please tell us where this energy comes from.
Bearing in mind, of course, that according to your own calculations, the kinetic energy of the plane plus the chemical energy of the jet fuel was about equal to the PE of a single building.
QUOTE
Speak for yourself; just because you're dumb enough not to know what CONSERVATION OF ENERGY means, doesn't mean I am.
I will point out that this is the THIRD TIME I am telling you EXACTLY THE SAME THING, and you STILL DON'T GET IT. That's because you're dumb.
I will point out that this is the THIRD TIME I am telling you EXACTLY THE SAME THING, and you STILL DON'T GET IT. That's because you're dumb.
I think it's generally quite obvious who is dumb and who is not, just by giving a fair reading to the posts. Your shrill tone and insults may obscure the untenability of your position, but you certainly don't fool me.
Has it even occurred to you that you can communicate without being obnoxious?
Sigh. Look, sport, it violates the conservation of energy. I'll try to explain it a FOURTH time. I'll stick to 1 WTC for my figures; that's American Airlines Filght 11.
I already showed that the FEMA potential energy calculation (which Hoffman accepts, but I do not) was too low by a factor of four. Go read it. I showed it two different ways, in case you hadn't noticed- both as potential energy and as kinetic energy. And they both gave very close to the same answer; within 1%, in fact. So instead of 111,000kWh, you got more like 450,000kWh as the correct figure for the total potential before a tower fell, or the kinetic energy created by its fall. Remember, this doesn't include the sizeable energy of impact of the plane, nor the energy released by the burning fuel, nor by the burning paper, wood, plastic, and cloth in the two or three floors that burned. Nor does it include the contents of the towers that burned as a result of being subjected to high temperatures developed by friction during the collapse, an energy source involving literally thousands of tons of fuel.
Let's see how much energy is involved. First, there is the impact of the plane. The plane weight was somewhere near 150t, including fuel and passengers. It was going 790km/h when it struck, and its kinetic energy was:
KE = mv^2/2 = (150,000kg * (219.4m/s)^2)/2 = 3,610,227,000 or about 3.6GJ; about 1,000kWh. So this is negligable in terms of the total energy budget.
How about the fuel? The 767-223 was carrying some 75,000l of fuel. This has an energy content of about 35MJ/l, giving it a total energy content of 2,625,000,000,000J, or 2.625TJ. This is 730,000kWh. Almost all of this vast supply of energy was dumped inside the building; unlike the 2 WTC impact, the 1 WTC impact was almost straight-on to the face of the building, against the long side of the center column.
The energy involved in the jet fuel was nearly twice the energy available from the kinetic energy of the collapse. But there is yet another source of energy, and it outdistances all the others by an order of magnitude.
How about the contents of the three floors that burned? We know that the loading was around 50lbs/sqft, and that the area inside the floor was about 2/3 of the area (the other third is taken up by the center column); that gives us 1,428,300lbs. Of that, perhaps 2/3 was metal; the remaining 1/3 would be primarily paper, wood, plastic, and cloth. That's about 230 tons per floor. This pageshows that the energy content of garbage is about 1/4 that of coal; garbage is going to be comparable in energy content to the paper, plastic, wood, and cloth on those floors. Using the same site's energy calculator on the 57 tons of coal that is the equivalent of that comes out to about 1.2TJ, or an additional 346,000kWh per floor, or some 1,020,000kWh for three floors.
Obviously, at least half of this material was incinerated during the collapse, due to the elevated temperatures caused by the release of the kinetic energy of the fall. 55 floors gives us 68,645,935,050,000J- 69TJ, or 19,068,315kWh! And that's if only half of it burned. This energy is far, far beyond any of the estimates Hoffman makes of the energy necessary to expand the pyroclastic cloud- his estimate for the pyroclastic cloud if all of the concrete were heated to 744C is only 11 million kWh, here we have over 19 million kWh. And that assumes that only half of the material burned!
Now, as regards energy conservation: Hoffman shows +111,000kWh for the collapse, then subtracts -135,000kWh for the crushing of the concrete. He then goes on to talk about the heat to expand the cloud- never mentioning that that 135,000kWh expended in crushing the concrete would already have heated it. Which I have now told you no less than four times. Look at it again; read his whole paper. For this reason alone his paper is bunk. But beyond that, I have shown above that he has missed a very obvious energy source that accounts for energy nearly twice that necessary to produce every effect he mentions; that is, nearly twice his most radical estimate. So again, it's bunk, and he knows nothing of energy conservation, and neither do you.
I already showed that the FEMA potential energy calculation (which Hoffman accepts, but I do not) was too low by a factor of four. Go read it. I showed it two different ways, in case you hadn't noticed- both as potential energy and as kinetic energy. And they both gave very close to the same answer; within 1%, in fact. So instead of 111,000kWh, you got more like 450,000kWh as the correct figure for the total potential before a tower fell, or the kinetic energy created by its fall. Remember, this doesn't include the sizeable energy of impact of the plane, nor the energy released by the burning fuel, nor by the burning paper, wood, plastic, and cloth in the two or three floors that burned. Nor does it include the contents of the towers that burned as a result of being subjected to high temperatures developed by friction during the collapse, an energy source involving literally thousands of tons of fuel.
Let's see how much energy is involved. First, there is the impact of the plane. The plane weight was somewhere near 150t, including fuel and passengers. It was going 790km/h when it struck, and its kinetic energy was:
KE = mv^2/2 = (150,000kg * (219.4m/s)^2)/2 = 3,610,227,000 or about 3.6GJ; about 1,000kWh. So this is negligable in terms of the total energy budget.
How about the fuel? The 767-223 was carrying some 75,000l of fuel. This has an energy content of about 35MJ/l, giving it a total energy content of 2,625,000,000,000J, or 2.625TJ. This is 730,000kWh. Almost all of this vast supply of energy was dumped inside the building; unlike the 2 WTC impact, the 1 WTC impact was almost straight-on to the face of the building, against the long side of the center column.
The energy involved in the jet fuel was nearly twice the energy available from the kinetic energy of the collapse. But there is yet another source of energy, and it outdistances all the others by an order of magnitude.
How about the contents of the three floors that burned? We know that the loading was around 50lbs/sqft, and that the area inside the floor was about 2/3 of the area (the other third is taken up by the center column); that gives us 1,428,300lbs. Of that, perhaps 2/3 was metal; the remaining 1/3 would be primarily paper, wood, plastic, and cloth. That's about 230 tons per floor. This pageshows that the energy content of garbage is about 1/4 that of coal; garbage is going to be comparable in energy content to the paper, plastic, wood, and cloth on those floors. Using the same site's energy calculator on the 57 tons of coal that is the equivalent of that comes out to about 1.2TJ, or an additional 346,000kWh per floor, or some 1,020,000kWh for three floors.
Obviously, at least half of this material was incinerated during the collapse, due to the elevated temperatures caused by the release of the kinetic energy of the fall. 55 floors gives us 68,645,935,050,000J- 69TJ, or 19,068,315kWh! And that's if only half of it burned. This energy is far, far beyond any of the estimates Hoffman makes of the energy necessary to expand the pyroclastic cloud- his estimate for the pyroclastic cloud if all of the concrete were heated to 744C is only 11 million kWh, here we have over 19 million kWh. And that assumes that only half of the material burned!
Now, as regards energy conservation: Hoffman shows +111,000kWh for the collapse, then subtracts -135,000kWh for the crushing of the concrete. He then goes on to talk about the heat to expand the cloud- never mentioning that that 135,000kWh expended in crushing the concrete would already have heated it. Which I have now told you no less than four times. Look at it again; read his whole paper. For this reason alone his paper is bunk. But beyond that, I have shown above that he has missed a very obvious energy source that accounts for energy nearly twice that necessary to produce every effect he mentions; that is, nearly twice his most radical estimate. So again, it's bunk, and he knows nothing of energy conservation, and neither do you.
QUOTE (Schneibster+Oct 18 2005, 11:48 PM)
How about the fuel? The 767-223 was carrying some 75,000l of fuel. This has an energy content of about 35MJ/l, giving it a total energy content of 2,625,000,000,000J, or 2.625TJ. This is 730,000kWh. Almost all of this vast supply of energy was dumped inside the building;
Your quote of "almost all" is vague, at best.
The definition of almost all would be, what, 85%, 90%, 95%??
How could the plane (and its contents, including its fuel) be ignited, and explode in a huge fireball, and yet still manage to retain "almost all" of its fuel load, to then damage the structure of the towers?
London, you seem to have missed the fact that the energy of the contents of the building exceeds all other energy sources by a factor of ten. Who cares whether it was 85% or 95% of the jet fuel that burned inside the building? Or even only 50%?
1. The amount of energy represented by the burning contents of the building is sufficient to account for the expansion of the cloud; add in the energy of the collapse and the energy of the jet fuel, and there is more than plenty.
2. The amount of energy represented by 50% of the fuel plus 50% of the burning contents of a single floor is more than sufficient to explain a single floor's collapse due to metal creep under the influence of the fire. I'll prove this as well if you like; that much energy applied to that small an amount of steel will raise it to temperatures where creep is documented to occur.
3. The force represented by the top five stories of the building falling one floor is more than sufficient to explain the next floor's collapse.
4. As the collapse continues, the force increases as the mass above accelerates under the force of gravity, and the mass increases as each floor collapses and is added to the falling mass, easily accounting for the collapse of the remaining portion of the building. Once it was moving, nothing was going to stop it.
5. There is sufficient energy to account for the cloud, sufficient energy to account for the powderized concrete, sufficient energy to account for the floor failures, and plenty left over to account for the pools of molten metal found underneath the rubble afterward.
What more do you need?
1. The amount of energy represented by the burning contents of the building is sufficient to account for the expansion of the cloud; add in the energy of the collapse and the energy of the jet fuel, and there is more than plenty.
2. The amount of energy represented by 50% of the fuel plus 50% of the burning contents of a single floor is more than sufficient to explain a single floor's collapse due to metal creep under the influence of the fire. I'll prove this as well if you like; that much energy applied to that small an amount of steel will raise it to temperatures where creep is documented to occur.
3. The force represented by the top five stories of the building falling one floor is more than sufficient to explain the next floor's collapse.
4. As the collapse continues, the force increases as the mass above accelerates under the force of gravity, and the mass increases as each floor collapses and is added to the falling mass, easily accounting for the collapse of the remaining portion of the building. Once it was moving, nothing was going to stop it.
5. There is sufficient energy to account for the cloud, sufficient energy to account for the powderized concrete, sufficient energy to account for the floor failures, and plenty left over to account for the pools of molten metal found underneath the rubble afterward.
What more do you need?
Hi Guys, Interesting discussion you have going.
I don't know too much about numbers myself, (apart from that they should be based upon true figures).
It seems to me that FEMA determined that ...the Boeing 767 is capable of carrying up to 23,980 gallons of fuel ... fully loaded.
Since the aircraft were only flying from Boston to Los Angeles, they would have been nowhere near fully fueled on takeoff (the aircraft have a maximum range of 7,600 miles). They would have carried just enough fuel for the trip together with some safety factor. Remember, that carrying excess fuel means higher fuel bills and less paying passengers. The aircraft would have also burnt some fuel between Boston and New York.
FEMA said- "If one assumes that approximately 3,000 gallons of fuel were consumed in the initial fireballs, then the remainder either escaped the impact floors in the manners described above or was consumed by the fire on the impact floors"...
Source : http://www.house.gov/science/hot/wtc/wtc-report/WTC_ch2.pdf
(Section 2.2 1.2 [Fire Development] )
If half flowed away, then 3,500 gallons remained on the impact floors to be consumed in the fires that followed... or not?
Something doesn't seem right here. Where did you get your figure of 75,000L of fuel available for input to the equation ???
75,000L = approximately 17 - 18000 gal of fuel !
Where did all that extra fuel come from ???
metamars...Nice stuff on the Bhazant-Zhou theory.
Andrew... nice start
Cheers
http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/guardi...wtc/WTC_ch2.htm
I don't know too much about numbers myself, (apart from that they should be based upon true figures).
It seems to me that FEMA determined that ...the Boeing 767 is capable of carrying up to 23,980 gallons of fuel ... fully loaded.
Since the aircraft were only flying from Boston to Los Angeles, they would have been nowhere near fully fueled on takeoff (the aircraft have a maximum range of 7,600 miles). They would have carried just enough fuel for the trip together with some safety factor. Remember, that carrying excess fuel means higher fuel bills and less paying passengers. The aircraft would have also burnt some fuel between Boston and New York.
FEMA said- "If one assumes that approximately 3,000 gallons of fuel were consumed in the initial fireballs, then the remainder either escaped the impact floors in the manners described above or was consumed by the fire on the impact floors"...
Source : http://www.house.gov/science/hot/wtc/wtc-report/WTC_ch2.pdf
(Section 2.2 1.2 [Fire Development] )
If half flowed away, then 3,500 gallons remained on the impact floors to be consumed in the fires that followed... or not?
Something doesn't seem right here. Where did you get your figure of 75,000L of fuel available for input to the equation ???
75,000L = approximately 17 - 18000 gal of fuel !
Where did all that extra fuel come from ???
metamars...Nice stuff on the Bhazant-Zhou theory.
Andrew... nice start
Cheers
http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/guardi...wtc/WTC_ch2.htm
Hmmmm , seems you can't edit posts here for 'corrections'.
I missed the most important part that FEMA determined in its 'Final' report...
quote: "based on information compiled from Government sources... each aircraft contained about 10,000 gallons of jet fuel upon impact into the buildings".
Now we have to subtract from that number, the gallons expended in the fireball, so I seem to come up with the number of 3500 - 4000 gals. Not 17,000. Please help if my math isn't as sharp as it used to be. Thanks
I missed the most important part that FEMA determined in its 'Final' report...
quote: "based on information compiled from Government sources... each aircraft contained about 10,000 gallons of jet fuel upon impact into the buildings".
Now we have to subtract from that number, the gallons expended in the fireball, so I seem to come up with the number of 3500 - 4000 gals. Not 17,000. Please help if my math isn't as sharp as it used to be. Thanks
QUOTE
So instead of 111,000kWh, you got more like 450,000kWh as the correct figure for the total potential before a tower fell, or the kinetic energy created by its fall.
I don't have time for a detailed look/reply, but a quick observation.
If you take a larger energy source due to converted PE of the mass of the buildings, you will end up with more mass to expand, which presumably you have to heat to about the same temperature. (is this correct? I really don't remember much of my chemistry.) In fact, the relationship between mass and PE is linear. So, again, even if you ignore the energy needed to "grind" the other solids into 60 micron dust, you may have made the deficit larger, not smaller.
Also, playing devil's advocate, how justified is it to use the ideal gas law in this situation? I don't recall Hoffman fully justifying the whole approach, though I may have missed it. Here is where we could use the input of chemists. Certainly the dust cloud LOOKS like a gas, but I'm not sure this justifies treating it like one.
It may turn out that using the ideal gas law is as valid an approximation as "elastic dynamic analysis".
Regarding creep: please explain exactly what that is and why we should be concerned about it.
QUOTE (metamars+Oct 19 2005, 02:27 PM)
Regarding creep: please explain exactly what that is and why we should be concerned about it.
HAHAHAHAHA. That makes the whole thread worth reading.
HAHAHAHAHA. That makes the whole thread worth reading.
WTC collapses due to controlled demolition
Steven E. Jones
Professor of Physics/BYU
http://www.leftgatekeepers.com/articles/WT...StevenJones.htm
Steven E. Jones
Professor of Physics/BYU
http://www.leftgatekeepers.com/articles/WT...StevenJones.htm
QUOTE (Schneibster+Oct 18 2005, 11:48 PM)
How about the fuel? The 767-223 was carrying some 75,000l of fuel. This has an energy content of about 35MJ/l, giving it a total energy content of 2,625,000,000,000J, or 2.625TJ. This is 730,000kWh. Almost all of this vast supply of energy was dumped inside the building;
In your quote you make the statement that 75000L was added to the energy budget... and that "almost all" was dumped into the building.
First (as I earlier questioned) where do you get this figure from? I have seen no quantative analysis which allows for such a high number of gallons of fuel being added to the mix. I have provided FEMA's report on WTC 1 & 2 which contradicts your number (in the extreme)...
http://www.house.gov/science/hot/wtc/wtc-report/WTC_ch2.pdf
Here are some calculations based upon FEMA's estimate of fuel, regarding how much heat would be input to the equation...
QUOTE
The Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) report into collapse of the WTC towers, estimates that about 3,500 gallons of jet fuel burnt within each of the towers. Imagine that this entire quantity of jet fuel was injected into just one floor of the World Trade Center, that the jet fuel burnt with perfect efficency, that no hot gases left this floor, that no heat escaped this floor by conduction and that the steel and concrete had an unlimited amount of time to absorb all the heat. With these ideal assumptions we calculate the maximum temperature that this one floor could have reached.
"it is estimated that, at the time of impact based on information compiled from Government sources, that each aircraft contained about 10,000 gallons of jet fuel upon impact into the buildings"
and...
""If one assumes that approximately 3,000 gallons of fuel were consumed in the initial fireballs, then the remainder either escaped the impact floors in the manners described above or was consumed by the fire on the impact floors. If half flowed away, then 3,500 gallons remained on the impact floors to be consumed in the fires that followed."
{Source: http://www.house.gov/science/hot/wtc/wtc-report/WTC_ch2.pdf
Section 2.2. 1.2 (Fire Development) }
What we propose to do, is pretend that the entire 3,500 gallons of jet fuel was confined to just one floor of the World Trade Center, that the jet fuel burnt with the perfect quantity of oxygen, that no hot gases left this floor and that no heat escaped this floor by conduction. With these ideal assumptions (none of which were meet in reality) we will calculate the maximum temperature that this one floor could have reached. Of course, on that day, the real temperature rise of any floor due to the burning jet fuel, would have been considerably lower than the rise that we calculate, but this estimate will enable us to demonstrate that the "official" explanation is a lie.
"it is estimated that, at the time of impact based on information compiled from Government sources, that each aircraft contained about 10,000 gallons of jet fuel upon impact into the buildings"
and...
""If one assumes that approximately 3,000 gallons of fuel were consumed in the initial fireballs, then the remainder either escaped the impact floors in the manners described above or was consumed by the fire on the impact floors. If half flowed away, then 3,500 gallons remained on the impact floors to be consumed in the fires that followed."
{Source: http://www.house.gov/science/hot/wtc/wtc-report/WTC_ch2.pdf
Section 2.2. 1.2 (Fire Development) }
What we propose to do, is pretend that the entire 3,500 gallons of jet fuel was confined to just one floor of the World Trade Center, that the jet fuel burnt with the perfect quantity of oxygen, that no hot gases left this floor and that no heat escaped this floor by conduction. With these ideal assumptions (none of which were meet in reality) we will calculate the maximum temperature that this one floor could have reached. Of course, on that day, the real temperature rise of any floor due to the burning jet fuel, would have been considerably lower than the rise that we calculate, but this estimate will enable us to demonstrate that the "official" explanation is a lie.
This is a generous postulation, given that you wish to ignore all the heat which was expelled from the buildings in carrying the smoke away from the building. That heat is lost to the PE, yet you seem to want to negate this loss, and pretend that there was no loss here, and that the total energy input from fuel remained in the building. OK, for the sake of discussion, we will pretend that this is so. Carrying on then...
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| The Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) report into collapse of the WTC towers, estimates that about 3,500 gallons of jet fuel burnt within each of the towers. Imagine that this entire quantity of jet fuel was injected into just one floor of the World Trade Center, that the jet fuel burnt with perfect efficency, that no hot gases left this floor, that no heat escaped this floor by conduction and that the steel and concrete had an unlimited amount of time to absorb all the heat. With these ideal assumptions we calculate the maximum temperature that this one floor could have reached. "it is estimated that, at the time of impact based on information compiled from Government sources, that each aircraft contained about 10,000 gallons of jet fuel upon impact into the buildings" and... ""If one assumes that approximately 3,000 gallons of fuel were consumed in the initial fireballs, then the remainder either escaped the impact floors in the manners described above or was consumed by the fire on the impact floors. If half flowed away, then 3,500 gallons remained on the impact floors to be consumed in the fires that followed." {Source: http://www.house.gov/science/hot/wtc/wtc-report/WTC_ch2.pdf Section 2.2. 1.2 (Fire Development) } What we propose to do, is pretend that the entire 3,500 gallons of jet fuel was confined to just one floor of the World Trade Center, that the jet fuel burnt with the perfect quantity of oxygen, that no hot gases left this floor and that no heat escaped this floor by conduction. With these ideal assumptions (none of which were meet in reality) we will calculate the maximum temperature that this one floor could have reached. Of course, on that day, the real temperature rise of any floor due to the burning jet fuel, would have been considerably lower than the rise that we calculate, but this estimate will enable us to demonstrate that the "official" explanation is a lie. |
This is a generous postulation, given that you wish to ignore all the heat which was expelled from the buildings in carrying the smoke away from the building. That heat is lost to the PE, yet you seem to want to negate this loss, and pretend that there was no loss here, and that the total energy input from fuel remained in the building. OK, for the sake of discussion, we will pretend that this is so. Carrying on then...
Note that a gallon of jet fuel weighs about 3.1 kilograms, hence 3,500 gallons weighs 3,500 x 3.1 = 10,850 kgs.
Jet fuel is a colorless, combustible, straight run petroleum distillate liquid. Its principal uses are as an ingredient in lamp oils, charcoal starter fluids, jet engine fuels and insecticides.
It is also know as, fuel oil #1, kerosene, range oil, coal oil and aviation fuel.
It is comprised of hydrocarbons with a carbon range of C9 - C17. The hydrocarbons are mainly alkanes CnH2n+2, with n ranging from 9 to 17.
It has a flash point within the range 42° C - 72° C (110° F - 162° F).
And an ignition temperature of 210° C (410° F).
Depending on the supply of oxygen, jet fuel burns by one of three chemical reactions:
(1) CnH2n+2 + (3n+1)/2 O2 => n CO2 + (n + 1) H2O
(2) CnH2n+2 + (2n+1)/2 O2 => n CO + (n + 1) H2O
(3) CnH2n+2 + (n+1)/2 O2 => n C + (n + 1) H2O
Reaction (1) occurs when jet fuel is well mixed with air before being burnt, as for example, in jet engines.
Reactions (2) and (3) occur when a pool of jet fuel burns. When reaction (3) occurs the carbon formed shows up as soot in the flame. This makes the smoke very dark.
In the aircraft crashes at the World Trade Center, the impact (with the aircraft going from 500 or 600 mph to zero) would have throughly mixed the fuel that entered the building with the limited amount of air available within. In fact, it is likely that all the fuel was turned into a flammable mist. However, for sake of argument we will assume that 3,500 gallons of the jet fuel did in fact form a pool fire. This means that it burnt according to reactions (2) and (3). Also note that the flammable mist would have burnt according to reactions (2) and (3), as the quantity of oxygen within the building was quite limited.
Since we do not know the exact quantities of oxygen available to the fire, we will assume that the combustion was perfectly efficient, that is, that the entire quantity of jet fuel burnt via reaction (1), even though we know that this was not so. This generous assumption will give a temperature that we know will be higher than the actual temperature of the fire attributable to the jet fuel.
We need to know that the (net) calorific value of jet fuel when burnt via reaction (1) is 42-44 MJ/kg. The calorific value of a fuel is the amount of energy released when the fuel is burnt. We will use the higher value of 44 MJ/kg as this will lead to a higher maximum temperature than the lower value of 42 (and we wish to continue being outrageously generous in our assumptions).
For a cleaner presentation and simpler calculations we will also assume that our hydrocarbons are of the form CnH2n. The dropping of the 2 hydrogen atoms does not make much difference to the final result and the interested reader can easily recalculate the figures for a slightly more accurate result. So we are now assuming the equation:
(4) CnH2n + 3n/2 O2 => n CO2 + n H2O
However, this model, does not take into account that the reaction is proceeding in air, which is only partly oxygen.
Dry air is 79% nitrogen and 21% oxygen (by volume). Normal air has a moisture content from 0 to 4%. We will include the water vapor and the other minor atmospheric gases with the nitrogen.
So the ratio of the main atmospheric gases, oxygen and nitrogen, is 1 : 3.76. In molar terms:
Air = O2 + 3.76 N2.
Because oxygen comes mixed with nitrogen, we have to include it in the equations. Even though it does not react, it is "along for the ride" and will absorb heat, affecting the overall heat balance. Thus we need to use the equation:
(5) CnH2n + 3n/2(O2 + 3.76 N2) => n CO2 + n H2O + 5.64n N2
From this equation we see that the molar ratio of CnH2n to that of the products is:
{see the equation in the link provided below}
In the conversion of moles to kilograms we have assumed the atomic weights of hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen and oxygen are 1, 12, 14 and 16 respectively.
Now each of the towers contained 96,000 (short) tons of steel. That is an average of 96,000/117 = 820 tons per floor. Lets suppose that the bottom floors contained roughly twice the amount of steel of the upper floors (since the lower floors had to carry more weight). So we estimate that the lower floors contained about 1,100 tons of steel and the upper floors about 550 tons = 550 x 907.2 ≈ 500,000 kgs. We will assume that the floors hit by the aircraft contained the lower estimate of 500,000 kgs of steel. This generously underestimates the quantity of steel in these floors, and once again leads to a higher estimate of the maximum temperature.
Each story had a floor slab and a ceiling slab. These slabs were 207 feet wide, 207 feet deep and 4 (in parts 5) inches thick and were constructed from lightweight concrete. So each slab contained 207 x 207 x 1/3 = 14,283 cubic feet of concrete. Now a cubic foot of lightweight concrete weighs about 50kg, hence each slab weighed 714,150 ≈ 700,000 kgs. Together, the floor and ceiling slabs weighed some 1,400,000 kgs.
So, now we take all the ingredients and estimate a maximum temperature to which they could have been heated by 3,500 gallons of jet fuel. We will call this maximum temperature T. Since the calorific value of jet fuel is 44 MJ/kg. We know that 3,500 gallons = 31,000 kgs of jet fuel
will release 10,850 x 44,000,000 = 477,400,000,000 Joules of energy.
This is the total quantity of energy available to heat the ingredients to the temperature T. But what is the temperature T? To find out, we first have to calculate the amount of energy absorbed by each of the ingredients.
That is, we need to calculate the energy needed to raise:
39,857 kilograms of water vapor to the temperature T* C,
97,429 kilograms of carbon dioxide to the temperature T* C
349,680 kilograms of nitrogen to the temperature T* C
500,000 kilograms of steel to the temperature T* C
1,400,000 kilograms of concrete to the temperature T* C
To calculate the energy needed to heat the above quantities, we need their specific heats. The specific heat of a substance is the amount of energy needed to raise one kilogram of the substance by one degree centigrade.
Substance --- Specific Heat [J/kg*C]
Nitrogen 1,038
Water Vapour 1,690
Carbon Dioxide 845
Lightweight Concrete 800
Steel 450
Substituting these values into the above, we obtain:
39,857 x 1,690 x (T - 25) Joules are needed to heat the water vapor from 25° to T° C
97,429 x 845 x (T - 25) Joules are needed to heat the carbon dioxide from 25° to T° C
349,680 x 1,038 x (T - 25) Joules are needed to heat the nitrogen from 25° to T° C,
500,000 x 450 x (T - 25) Joules are needed to heat the steel from 25° to T° C,
1,400,000 x 800 x (T - 25) Joules are needed to heat the concrete from 25° to T° C
The assumption that the specific heats are constant over the temperature range 25° - T° C, is a good approximation if T turns out to be relatively small (as it does). For larger values of T this assumption once again leads to a higher maximum temperature (as the specific heat for these substances increases with temperature). We have assumed the initial temperature of the surroundings to be 25° C. The quantity, (T - 25)° C, is the temperature rise.
So the amount of energy needed to raise one floor to the temperature T° C is
= (39,857 x 1,690 + 97,429 x 845 + 349,680 x 1,038 + 500,000 x 450 + 1,400,000 x 800) x (T - 25)
= (67,358,330 + 82,327,505 + 362,967,840 + 225,000,000 + 1,120,000,000) x (T - 25) Joules
= 1,857,653,675 x (T - 25) Joules.
Since the amount of energy available to heat this floor is 477,400,000,000 Joules, we have that
1,857,653,675 x (T - 25) = 477,400,000,000
1,857,653,675 x T - 46,441,341,875 = 477,400,000,000
Therefore T = (477,400,000,000 + 46,441,341,875)/1,857,653,675 = 282° C (540° F).
So, the jet fuel could (at the very most) have only added T - 25 = 282 - 25 = 257° C (495° F) to the temperature of the typical office fire that developed.
Remember, this figure is a huge over-estimate, as (among other things) it assumes that the steel and concrete had an unlimited amount of time to absorb the heat, whereas in reality, the jet fuel fire was all over in one or two minutes, and the energy not absorbed by the concrete and steel within this brief period (that is, almost all of it) would have been vented to the outside world.
Summarizing:
We have assumed that the entire 3,500 gallons of jet fuel was confined to just one floor of the World Trade Center, that the jet fuel burnt with perfect efficency, that no hot gases left this floor, that no heat escaped this floor by conduction and that the steel and concrete had an unlimited amount of time to absorb all the heat.
Then it is impossible that the jet fuel, by itself, raised the temperature of this floor more than 257° C (495° F).
Now this temperature is nowhere near high enough to even begin explaining the World Trade Center Tower collapse.
It is not even close to the first critical temperature of 600° C (1,100° F) where steel loses about half its strength and it is nowhere near the quotes of 1500° C that we constantly read about in our lying media.
"In the mid-1990s British Steel and the Building Research Establishment performed a series of six experiments at Cardington to investigate the behavior of steel frame buildings. These experiments were conducted in a simulated, eight-story building. Secondary steel beams were not protected. Despite the temperature of the steel beams reaching 800-900° C (1,500-1,700° F) in three of the tests (well above the traditionally assumed critical temperature of 600° C (1,100° F), no collapse was observed in any of the six experiments."
Quote from the FEMA report (Appendix A).
Recalling that the North Tower suffered no major structural damage from the intense office fire of February 23, 1975, we can conclude that the ensuing office fires of September 11, 2001, also did little extra damage to the towers.
Conclusion:
The jet fuel fires played almost no role in the collapse of the World Trade Center.
Source : http://guardian.250free.com/wtc/how-hot.htm
It seems to me that your statement (based upon your calcs) of 2,625,000,000,000J of heat energy which you have added to the 'energy budget' is highly exagerrated.
Would you care to rework your calculations to reflect a realistic amount of heat to be added to the energy budget? I somehow think that Hoffmans energy budget is much more reasonable than that which you have proposed.
Foxx,
Perhaps your source is better. Fine, we'll go with that, but you've miscalculated, two different ways.
First, if you like FEMA's numbers, there were 10,000 gallons on the plane, and 3,000 were consumed in the initial fireball- leaving 7,000, not 3,500.
Second, at least half of that heat (from the fireball) would have remained in the building, and that's a conservative estimate- this is a confined space, and heat radiates (there isn't time for conduction, and convection doesn't occur in solid materials), so the bulk of the radiated heat would have been absorbed by the building directly rather than radiated out into the surrounding air; 75% might be a more realistic figure- but we'll go with 50%, to be conservative. So we'll add 1,500 gallons worth of energy to our budget. So that's 8,500 gallons worth, all told.
8,500 gallons is 32,176l. At 35MJ/l, that's 1,126,160,000,000J, 1.126TJ, which is still 312,822kWh. And remember, this was expended on, at most, three floors. So one floor would have gotten 104,274kWh, from the jet fuel alone. And that assumes that it was evenly distributed; most likely, one floor got more than the other two, but we'll take this conservative estimate.
Meanwhile, the contents of the floor would have added a further 346,000kWh, as previously calculated. This adds up to 450,274kWh per floor. In Joules, this is 1,620,986,666,667J, 1.62TJ. Remember also that the energy of the burnable materials per floor was quite conservative; we assumed that only 2/3 of the floor would be loaded at under half of its capacity of 100lbs/sqft, and that 2/3 of the loading would be unburnable metal. Anyone who has ever moved a file cabinet knows that more than 3/4 of the weight is the paper inside; but we've made very conservative estimates here.
The specific heat of iron is 452J/kgK at room temperature. An inspection of the NIST material data webbook shows that the curve is relatively free from significant anomalies below 1,000K, but shows a large spike between 1,000K and 1,200K. This spike is due to the latent heat of fusion, that is, the heat required to bring the iron to its liquid phase, once the liquid temperature is achieved; this is discussed in Hoffman's paper as well, although his discussion is for water, and for latent heat of vaporization rather than latent heat of fusion. You can look up latent heat in Wikipedia if you need more help understanding it. The latent heat of fusion of iron is around 200,000J/kg. Now, note that this is only true if the temperature of the iron is high enough to begin to liquify it; and the melting temperature of iron is 2,785F, or 1,530C, or 1,805K. So unless we reach that temperature, we don't need to add in the latent heat of fusion.
The mass of steel used in the construction of a single tower of the WTC was 90,000t; dividing by the number of floors, that's 818t/floor. I should point out that this is an extremely conservative number; the steel beams were MUCH thicker low down on the tower, growing progressively thinner on higher floors; this would be appropriate not only because the remaining weight above a floor would depend on how high that floor was, and therefore how many stories remained above it, but also because using less steel higher up would reduce the static loading on lower floors by decreasing the weight of higher floors on top of them, which would in turn reduce the amount of steel that must be used lower down, further decreasing the static load; there is a point of diminishing returns, and in addition, the thinnest and therefore weakest parts must still be strong enough to resist the strongest possible winds; in addition, the concrete was uniform; but even so, we can see that higher floors would be lighter than lower ones. So actually, far more than half the weight of steel of the WTC towers was below the 55th floor; but we'll go with this very high figure to show how ridiculous it is to suppose that there was not enough heat to cause failure of a single floor.
That 818t is 818,182kg; at 460J/kgK, that means that
818182kg * 460J/kgK = 376,363,636J/K
would be required to heat the mass by 1K. Dividing this figure into our 1.62TJ, we find that the temperature increase of the steel would be 4307K. WOW! That's well beyond the melting point; so we're going to have to add in the latent heat of fusion. What we do is figure out how much heat was necessary to raise the temperature to 1,805K from room temperature (300K), subtract that, and figure how much steel got liquified as a percentage based on how much latent heat could be supplied.
We start with a temperature rise of 1,505K (subtract that 300K from the melting point) and multiply by our 376,363,636J to raise the mass of steel 1K; then we take that figure and subtract it from our 1.62TJ. Whatever remains is contributed to latent heat, and we'll see how much steel we manage to liquify. Thus,
1505K * 376,363,636J/K = 566,427,272,180J = 566GJ
1,620,986,666,667J - 566,427,272,180J = 1,054,559,394,487J = 1.05TJ
Hmmm, we have most of our energy left- we only used a bit under a third of it bringing the steel to its melting temperature. OK, so how much of it could we have melted?
1,054,559,394,487J / 200,000J/kg = 5,272,796kg. But wait a minute- we only have 818,182kg! So this is enough energy to melt ALL of it, four or five times over!!! And plenty more to heat it up EVEN FURTHER!
Obviously, the fire never came close to consuming all the burnable material in a story; steel softens long before it melts, and loses a great deal of its strength before it gets anywhere close to melting; a plot of the Young modulus (the measure of elasticity of a material) of steel against temperature shows that most of steel's strength is gone before it gets to 700C, or 900K. When the steel's strength is gone, it collapses- and that means the floor it's on collapses- and then we have the much-maligned "pancake" model. It's certain that collapse occurred long before all the material on a single floor was burned. In addition, we can see that the heat from the jet fuel was not enough to raise the temperature high enough to soften the steel; it took the paper, wood, cloth, and plastic to do that, and it took a while for enough of it to burn to heat the steel far enough to weaken it enough to cause collapse. This dovetails with the fact that it took a while for the building to collapse.
Thus we see that there was more than sufficient energy, even without the jet fuel, to cause a floor to collapse; and once a floor collapsed, there was sufficient force to collapse the next, and that force could only increase as the mass accelerates and as the mass grows due to another floor and another and another being added to it. Meanwhile, the heat created by the burning contents (now greatly increased in rate due to the movement of air caused by the collapse (ever use a bellows on a wood fire?), and the addition of heat from the kinetic energy of the collapse) added to the heat of the friction of the collapse, accounts for the pyroclastic dust cloud and for the melted steel in the basement.
All of the calculations are quite conservative; more realistic estimates could increase the available energy by a factor of more than 2.
Got any more questions here?
Perhaps your source is better. Fine, we'll go with that, but you've miscalculated, two different ways.
First, if you like FEMA's numbers, there were 10,000 gallons on the plane, and 3,000 were consumed in the initial fireball- leaving 7,000, not 3,500.
Second, at least half of that heat (from the fireball) would have remained in the building, and that's a conservative estimate- this is a confined space, and heat radiates (there isn't time for conduction, and convection doesn't occur in solid materials), so the bulk of the radiated heat would have been absorbed by the building directly rather than radiated out into the surrounding air; 75% might be a more realistic figure- but we'll go with 50%, to be conservative. So we'll add 1,500 gallons worth of energy to our budget. So that's 8,500 gallons worth, all told.
8,500 gallons is 32,176l. At 35MJ/l, that's 1,126,160,000,000J, 1.126TJ, which is still 312,822kWh. And remember, this was expended on, at most, three floors. So one floor would have gotten 104,274kWh, from the jet fuel alone. And that assumes that it was evenly distributed; most likely, one floor got more than the other two, but we'll take this conservative estimate.
Meanwhile, the contents of the floor would have added a further 346,000kWh, as previously calculated. This adds up to 450,274kWh per floor. In Joules, this is 1,620,986,666,667J, 1.62TJ. Remember also that the energy of the burnable materials per floor was quite conservative; we assumed that only 2/3 of the floor would be loaded at under half of its capacity of 100lbs/sqft, and that 2/3 of the loading would be unburnable metal. Anyone who has ever moved a file cabinet knows that more than 3/4 of the weight is the paper inside; but we've made very conservative estimates here.
The specific heat of iron is 452J/kgK at room temperature. An inspection of the NIST material data webbook shows that the curve is relatively free from significant anomalies below 1,000K, but shows a large spike between 1,000K and 1,200K. This spike is due to the latent heat of fusion, that is, the heat required to bring the iron to its liquid phase, once the liquid temperature is achieved; this is discussed in Hoffman's paper as well, although his discussion is for water, and for latent heat of vaporization rather than latent heat of fusion. You can look up latent heat in Wikipedia if you need more help understanding it. The latent heat of fusion of iron is around 200,000J/kg. Now, note that this is only true if the temperature of the iron is high enough to begin to liquify it; and the melting temperature of iron is 2,785F, or 1,530C, or 1,805K. So unless we reach that temperature, we don't need to add in the latent heat of fusion.
The mass of steel used in the construction of a single tower of the WTC was 90,000t; dividing by the number of floors, that's 818t/floor. I should point out that this is an extremely conservative number; the steel beams were MUCH thicker low down on the tower, growing progressively thinner on higher floors; this would be appropriate not only because the remaining weight above a floor would depend on how high that floor was, and therefore how many stories remained above it, but also because using less steel higher up would reduce the static loading on lower floors by decreasing the weight of higher floors on top of them, which would in turn reduce the amount of steel that must be used lower down, further decreasing the static load; there is a point of diminishing returns, and in addition, the thinnest and therefore weakest parts must still be strong enough to resist the strongest possible winds; in addition, the concrete was uniform; but even so, we can see that higher floors would be lighter than lower ones. So actually, far more than half the weight of steel of the WTC towers was below the 55th floor; but we'll go with this very high figure to show how ridiculous it is to suppose that there was not enough heat to cause failure of a single floor.
That 818t is 818,182kg; at 460J/kgK, that means that
818182kg * 460J/kgK = 376,363,636J/K
would be required to heat the mass by 1K. Dividing this figure into our 1.62TJ, we find that the temperature increase of the steel would be 4307K. WOW! That's well beyond the melting point; so we're going to have to add in the latent heat of fusion. What we do is figure out how much heat was necessary to raise the temperature to 1,805K from room temperature (300K), subtract that, and figure how much steel got liquified as a percentage based on how much latent heat could be supplied.
We start with a temperature rise of 1,505K (subtract that 300K from the melting point) and multiply by our 376,363,636J to raise the mass of steel 1K; then we take that figure and subtract it from our 1.62TJ. Whatever remains is contributed to latent heat, and we'll see how much steel we manage to liquify. Thus,
1505K * 376,363,636J/K = 566,427,272,180J = 566GJ
1,620,986,666,667J - 566,427,272,180J = 1,054,559,394,487J = 1.05TJ
Hmmm, we have most of our energy left- we only used a bit under a third of it bringing the steel to its melting temperature. OK, so how much of it could we have melted?
1,054,559,394,487J / 200,000J/kg = 5,272,796kg. But wait a minute- we only have 818,182kg! So this is enough energy to melt ALL of it, four or five times over!!! And plenty more to heat it up EVEN FURTHER!
Obviously, the fire never came close to consuming all the burnable material in a story; steel softens long before it melts, and loses a great deal of its strength before it gets anywhere close to melting; a plot of the Young modulus (the measure of elasticity of a material) of steel against temperature shows that most of steel's strength is gone before it gets to 700C, or 900K. When the steel's strength is gone, it collapses- and that means the floor it's on collapses- and then we have the much-maligned "pancake" model. It's certain that collapse occurred long before all the material on a single floor was burned. In addition, we can see that the heat from the jet fuel was not enough to raise the temperature high enough to soften the steel; it took the paper, wood, cloth, and plastic to do that, and it took a while for enough of it to burn to heat the steel far enough to weaken it enough to cause collapse. This dovetails with the fact that it took a while for the building to collapse.
Thus we see that there was more than sufficient energy, even without the jet fuel, to cause a floor to collapse; and once a floor collapsed, there was sufficient force to collapse the next, and that force could only increase as the mass accelerates and as the mass grows due to another floor and another and another being added to it. Meanwhile, the heat created by the burning contents (now greatly increased in rate due to the movement of air caused by the collapse (ever use a bellows on a wood fire?), and the addition of heat from the kinetic energy of the collapse) added to the heat of the friction of the collapse, accounts for the pyroclastic dust cloud and for the melted steel in the basement.
All of the calculations are quite conservative; more realistic estimates could increase the available energy by a factor of more than 2.
Got any more questions here?
Foxx, you have consistently ignored the source of the majority of the heat: the contents of the burning floors. One floor's worth of material, very conservatively estimated, is FOUR TIMES the energy of one third of the available jet fuel; so even if we TOTALLY IGNORE the jet fuel, four-fifths of the energy remains. That energy is FOUR TIMES what is needed to COMPLETELY LIQUIFY the ENTIRE STEEL CONTENT of a floor, and the estimate of the steel content of a floor is probably twice the actual content, because higher floors have less steel, and the floor involved was relatively high on the building.
Not only that, but you said, "That heat is lost to the PE..." indicating that you have made a bad assumption: that the PE of burning I am calculating is part of the gravitational PE of the building. Nothing could be further from the truth. The calculations I made of the gravitational PE of the building DO NOT INCLUDE any of the PE of the burning materials; thus the figures for gravitational PE and burning PE are COMPLETELY SEPARATE and must be added together to get the entire PE, and in addition, the burning jet fuel adds only a very small fraction to the entire PE involved. By far the largest source of energy is the burning contents of the building, in fact, by a factor of TEN OR MORE. You have consistently COMPLETELY IGNORED this energy source, as has every other analysis posted so far.
Even supposing that 75% of the energy of the burning contents of the building on the damaged floors escaped into the surrounding air, there is still MORE THAN ENOUGH TO COMPLETELY LIQUIFY ALL THE STEEL IN A SINGLE FLOOR. And because of the peculiarities of construction (can you say, "viscous dampening?") that means that even if 75% of the heat escaped during the fire, there is still MORE THAN TWICE AS MUCH AS IS NEEDED to compromise the joists and their trusses, and/or the connection plates either between the joists/trusses and the core or perimeter, or between the perimeter column sections. Not only that, but if the heat was escaping to the outside air, a fair bit of it had to pass by the perimeter columns, and if those fail, then there is nothing holding up the outsides of the floors; which then obviously collapse, leading straight back to the original discussion.
And once again, if we start talking about the heat being conducted away, we have the prior discussion of the bar of steel held in the bare hand of the smith, with the other end glowing white-hot. The index of thermal conductivity of steel just isn't that high. And then we discuss viscous damping again, and the fact that viscous dampening means that the floor joists and their trusses were not strongly thermally linked to either the core or the perimeter.
Really, the whole thing is ridiculous and always was; serious consideration of the factors convinced me LONG AGO that there was nothing wrong with the "pancake scenario." But everybody WANTS a conspiracy scenario, with demolition explosives and other stupid crap, so they all try to prove it by ignoring OBVIOUS factors.
This emotional need makes people extremely testy when it is denied, and that makes them quite difficult to get along with; I therefore have begun to approach these "discussions" filled with misconceptions, inaccuracies, misunderstandings, and lack of knowledge of BASIC PHYSICS quite aggressively, because I have already been through the mill and didn't like it the first five times. Challenge me on technical grounds, and you will get a civil and comprehensive answer; more posturing and accusing me of being a shill for this administration (which I absolutely DETEST, by the way- Shrub is without honor, lies at the drop of a hat, and can never be bothered to acknowledge previous lies, and his accomplices are, if anything, worse by far), on the other hand, will do nothing but arouse my fury, and I can be extremely impolite when I am angry. You have been civil so far, please remain that way despite your disappointment.
I suggest a careful, skeptical review of Crossing the Rubicon. You can't take everything Ruppert says at face value- he misses some pretty basic physics, and makes some real mistakes because of it- but you can't fault his research, he's one of the best researchers around. I remain convinced that there was collusion at the highest levels of this administration; I am merely arguing that that collusion did NOT include extremely complicated demolitions work in public places, which would have involved a very large number of people and could hardly have been missed by the firefighters who explored a great deal of the building after the impact and prior to the collapse.
Not only that, but you said, "That heat is lost to the PE..." indicating that you have made a bad assumption: that the PE of burning I am calculating is part of the gravitational PE of the building. Nothing could be further from the truth. The calculations I made of the gravitational PE of the building DO NOT INCLUDE any of the PE of the burning materials; thus the figures for gravitational PE and burning PE are COMPLETELY SEPARATE and must be added together to get the entire PE, and in addition, the burning jet fuel adds only a very small fraction to the entire PE involved. By far the largest source of energy is the burning contents of the building, in fact, by a factor of TEN OR MORE. You have consistently COMPLETELY IGNORED this energy source, as has every other analysis posted so far.
Even supposing that 75% of the energy of the burning contents of the building on the damaged floors escaped into the surrounding air, there is still MORE THAN ENOUGH TO COMPLETELY LIQUIFY ALL THE STEEL IN A SINGLE FLOOR. And because of the peculiarities of construction (can you say, "viscous dampening?") that means that even if 75% of the heat escaped during the fire, there is still MORE THAN TWICE AS MUCH AS IS NEEDED to compromise the joists and their trusses, and/or the connection plates either between the joists/trusses and the core or perimeter, or between the perimeter column sections. Not only that, but if the heat was escaping to the outside air, a fair bit of it had to pass by the perimeter columns, and if those fail, then there is nothing holding up the outsides of the floors; which then obviously collapse, leading straight back to the original discussion.
And once again, if we start talking about the heat being conducted away, we have the prior discussion of the bar of steel held in the bare hand of the smith, with the other end glowing white-hot. The index of thermal conductivity of steel just isn't that high. And then we discuss viscous damping again, and the fact that viscous dampening means that the floor joists and their trusses were not strongly thermally linked to either the core or the perimeter.
Really, the whole thing is ridiculous and always was; serious consideration of the factors convinced me LONG AGO that there was nothing wrong with the "pancake scenario." But everybody WANTS a conspiracy scenario, with demolition explosives and other stupid crap, so they all try to prove it by ignoring OBVIOUS factors.
This emotional need makes people extremely testy when it is denied, and that makes them quite difficult to get along with; I therefore have begun to approach these "discussions" filled with misconceptions, inaccuracies, misunderstandings, and lack of knowledge of BASIC PHYSICS quite aggressively, because I have already been through the mill and didn't like it the first five times. Challenge me on technical grounds, and you will get a civil and comprehensive answer; more posturing and accusing me of being a shill for this administration (which I absolutely DETEST, by the way- Shrub is without honor, lies at the drop of a hat, and can never be bothered to acknowledge previous lies, and his accomplices are, if anything, worse by far), on the other hand, will do nothing but arouse my fury, and I can be extremely impolite when I am angry. You have been civil so far, please remain that way despite your disappointment.
I suggest a careful, skeptical review of Crossing the Rubicon. You can't take everything Ruppert says at face value- he misses some pretty basic physics, and makes some real mistakes because of it- but you can't fault his research, he's one of the best researchers around. I remain convinced that there was collusion at the highest levels of this administration; I am merely arguing that that collusion did NOT include extremely complicated demolitions work in public places, which would have involved a very large number of people and could hardly have been missed by the firefighters who explored a great deal of the building after the impact and prior to the collapse.
QUOTE
Perhaps your source is better. Fine, we'll go with that, but you've miscalculated, two different ways.
First, if you like FEMA's numbers, there were 10,000 gallons on the plane, and 3,000 were consumed in the initial fireball- leaving 7,000, not 3,500.
First, if you like FEMA's numbers, there were 10,000 gallons on the plane, and 3,000 were consumed in the initial fireball- leaving 7,000, not 3,500.
Did you read the FEMA report? The 3500 gal figure comes from... approximately half of the 7000 gal 'flowing away' from the impact zone unburned. How do we arrive at that conclusion? Because as FEMA states in section...
2.2.1.2 Fire Development
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Perhaps your source is better. Fine, we'll go with that, but you've miscalculated, two different ways. First, if you like FEMA's numbers, there were 10,000 gallons on the plane, and 3,000 were consumed in the initial fireball- leaving 7,000, not 3,500. |
Did you read the FEMA report? The 3500 gal figure comes from... approximately half of the 7000 gal 'flowing away' from the impact zone unburned. How do we arrive at that conclusion? Because as FEMA states in section...
2.2.1.2 Fire Development
If one assumes that approximately 3,000 gallons of fuel were consumed in the initial fireballs, then the remainder either escaped the impact floors in the manners described above or was consumed by the fire on the impact floors. If half flowed away, then approximately 4,000 gallons remained on the impact floors to be consumed in the fires that followed. The jet fuel in the aerosol would have burned out as fast as the flame could spread through it, igniting almost every combustible on the floors involved. Fuel that fell to the floor and did not flow out of the building would have burned as a pool or spill fire at the point where it came to rest.
Source: http://www.house.gov/science/hot/wtc/wtc-report/WTC_ch2.pdf
Note that I have corrected FEMA's typo regarding their subtraction. 10,000 - 3,000 = 7,000... 1/2X 7,000 = 4,000 ???
Surely they mean 3500. That is where we get the 3500 gal estimate to begin with.
FEMA seems notorious for "typos"...
I see FEMA has done a major renovation to their online library... took me a while to find the new location. Danged internet - someone's always changing their links.
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photolibr...photo_search.do
While doing revisions to their site, they don't seem to have changed their opinion on the weight of the 'Amazing Flying Columns' that fell from the sky ...(blown by the winds of 9/11 into WFC 3)...
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/WFC3_sm.jpg
The caption reads,
QUOTE
"New York, NY, September 18, 2001 -- Ohio Task Force workers anchored this 600,000 pound beam from the World Trade Center lodged in a nearby building. Photo by Michael Reiger / FEMA News Photo"
Actually, I believe that the figure 600,000 lb should read 60,000 lbs... but that's still 30 tons!
Here is a closer look...
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/WFC3_close.jpg
I wonder how much energy it would take to propel a "600,000" (60,000) lb piece of steel debris over 400 feet laterally from it's point of origin?
Another example of these Amazing Flying Columns can be found at 130 Liberty Street (Bankers Trust Building).FEMA has a photo of it in their library at this page...
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photolibr...ails.do?id=3988
The caption here reads,
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| "New York, NY, September 18, 2001 -- Ohio Task Force workers anchored this 600,000 pound beam from the World Trade Center lodged in a nearby building. Photo by Michael Reiger / FEMA News Photo" |
Actually, I believe that the figure 600,000 lb should read 60,000 lbs... but that's still 30 tons!
Here is a closer look...
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/WFC3_close.jpg
I wonder how much energy it would take to propel a "600,000" (60,000) lb piece of steel debris over 400 feet laterally from it's point of origin?
Another example of these Amazing Flying Columns can be found at 130 Liberty Street (Bankers Trust Building).FEMA has a photo of it in their library at this page...
http://www.photolibrary.fema.gov/photolibr...ails.do?id=3988
The caption here reads, New York, NY, September 20, 2001 -- This building was damaged by the explosions caused by terrorist attacks near the World Trade Center site. Photo by Mike Rieger/ FEMA News Photo
I didn't know that terrorists had caused explosions at WTC !!???
Surely they don't mean these columns had been blown to this location in the "explosion" when the aircraft impacted the towers???
Sorry, I'll have to look at the rest of your figures later. I'm not ignoring the fuel load of the office contents, I just haven't addressed those so far, and will try to get to those later.
Cheers
QUOTE (Foxx+)
The 3500 gal figure comes from... approximately half of the 7000 gal 'flowing away' from the impact zone unburned.
Again, who cares? If we completely ignore the amount of energy contributed by the burning jet fuel, there is already four times more than enough to do the damage we saw. You are straining at a gnat (the jet fuel's contribution to the total energy) after swallowing a camel (the office contents' contribution). What's the point? To disagree just to be disagreeable? That's the only way I can interpret this.
QUOTE (Foxx+)
While doing revisions to their site, they don't seem to have changed their opinion on the weight of the 'Amazing Flying Columns' that fell from the sky ...(blown by the winds of 9/11 into WFC 3)...
What part of "the building fell down and pieces of the outside of it scattered in all directions" do you not get? This is so obvious, I can't believe I'm even hearing it. What is your problem, anyway? Do you imagine that all of the hundreds of column sections are going to fall straight down, after being bent and flexed until their couplings snapped apart? Do you have NO IMAGINATION to see what must have happened? Or are you so EMOTIONALLY COMMITTED to your "demolition theory" that you can't help IGNORING OBVIOUS EVIDENCE?
Am very busy right now, but can somebody do an analysis of how man pounds of wood it would take to match the heat of combustion of 7K gallons kersosene (actually, my reference below compares to oil, but even that may be illuminating)
Let us know!
From the wizard at
http://engineeringtoolbox.com/fuels-equiva...814qframed.html
we see that 7K gallon of #1 oil give heat = 121,562.899728751 kg wood
Roughly speaking, I will guess that if you made a person out of wood, then that person would weight 70 kg.
So we have the volume equivalent of 1736 people.
Seems reasonable that 1736 people would comfortably fit in 5 floors, and they would have about as much flammable material associated with them as their own weight (not from carpeting, but from books). So, it does seem reasonable to assume heat energy worth 1 jet planes did contribute to secondary fires. If you consider 10 floors as having burned, add the equivalent of 14 K gallons fuel.
Still way too little. Especially since, in the real world, I believe the overwhelming majority of the heat energy simply vented out the building
Originally posted by metamars
From the wizard at
http://engineeringtoolbox.com/fuels-equiva...814qframed.html
we see that 7K gallon of #1 oil give heat = 121,562.899728751 kg wood
Roughly speaking, I will guess that if you made a person out of wood, then that person would weight 70 kg.
So we have the volume equivalent of 1736 people.
Seems reasonable that 1736 people would comfortably fit in 5 floors, and they would have about as much flammable material associated with them as their own weight (not from carpeting, but from books). So, it does seem reasonable to assume heat energy worth 1 jet planes did contribute to secondary fires. If you consider 10 floors as having burned, add the equivalent of 14 K gallons fuel.
Still way too little. Especially since, in the real world, I believe the overwhelming majority of the heat energy simply vented out the building
metamars To be quite honest, I don't understand what you are getting at... but I would agree that the majority of the heat energy would be vented out of the openings from the impacts (as can clearly be seen by the rapidly rising soot-filled dark smoke pouring out of both buildings).
Schneidster has added his .02 cents worth to the discussion of whether or not it was possible through physics that the buildings could have realistically fallen at near the rate of free-fall.
Much of his suppositions and postulations are based upon mathematical calculations of potential energy sources, however it is a little disconcerning to me that these 'inviolatable numbers' seem to change from post to post.
I recall some fantastic numbers (first proposed) that the jet fuel alone by far outweighed the energy budget to cause the buildings to collapse at near free-fall rates.
That was pretty quickly debunked, and now we are on to the massive potential energy stored in the burning of office contents.
Like you, I don't have unlimited play time to spend on responding to all posts with the thoroughness really required.
But, I must say that the energy input to be derived by adding the TOTAL available potential energy which could be derived by the complete combustion of all available fuel sources (which was never realized) is misleading, and I don't see how Schneidster justifies adding that into the "energy budget"... (at least not at this point).
Personally, I believe that Andrew Johnson is correct in his basic phsyics... that given 'resistance' to the upper falling mass by the uncompromised materials and structure below, the buildings could not have 'collapsed' at near the rate of free-fall. Simple physics denies that such an occurance can take place in the real world.
Leaving emotions aside ... (this IS an emotional issue, as well as a scientific question)...
...I think embellished emotional statements such as...
...could probably be left out, without affecting the quantitative or qualitative science of that under discussion.
The 'fires' (regardless of whether they were based upon kerosene or office-contents) were not really anywhere near the conflagration which we have been led to believe they were.
There were NO full-floor infernos at all. This is clearly evident from studying the latest "Drafts" from NIST.
These normal office fires (which followed the initial ignition by jet-fuel) were more like flash fires racing through various parts of the impact zones. There was no concentration / build-up of heat over extended periods of time, as can clearly be seen by NIST's own computer-generated graphics shown below...
Fires on south face of North Tower (WTC 1) between 8:47 am - 10:28 am
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/untitled_Fire01.html
What's your point? This same article says that the average American throws away 4.4 lbs. of garbage every day. I have guessed 70 kg of (non-jet fuel) flammable material per person and 1736 people on 5 floors. Add in 2 kg per person, and the effect is negligible.
QUOTE (Foxx+)
Sorry, I'll have to look at the rest of your figures later. I'm not ignoring the fuel load of the office contents, I just haven't addressed those so far, and will try to get to those later.
You mean you haven't found any OTHER facts you can distort to try to answer the very straightforward and conservative estimates I have presented, or any other gnats you can strain at while ignoring the camels you have already eaten? Whatever, more wasted time. Go ahead; I can't WAIT to see the NEXT STEAMING PILE.
QUOTE
Again, who cares? If we completely ignore the amount of energy contributed by the burning jet fuel, there is already four times more than enough to do the damage we saw.
Am very busy right now, but can somebody do an analysis of how man pounds of wood it would take to match the heat of combustion of 7K gallons kersosene (actually, my reference below compares to oil, but even that may be illuminating)
Let us know!
From the wizard at
http://engineeringtoolbox.com/fuels-equiva...814qframed.html
we see that 7K gallon of #1 oil give heat = 121,562.899728751 kg wood
Roughly speaking, I will guess that if you made a person out of wood, then that person would weight 70 kg.
So we have the volume equivalent of 1736 people.
Seems reasonable that 1736 people would comfortably fit in 5 floors, and they would have about as much flammable material associated with them as their own weight (not from carpeting, but from books). So, it does seem reasonable to assume heat energy worth 1 jet planes did contribute to secondary fires. If you consider 10 floors as having burned, add the equivalent of 14 K gallons fuel.
Still way too little. Especially since, in the real world, I believe the overwhelming majority of the heat energy simply vented out the building
On the assumption that you missed it the first time, try this which states that the energy content of garbage is approximately 1/4 the energy content of coal; just your grade level, too.
QUOTE
Originally posted by Schneibster
Again, who cares? If we completely ignore the amount of energy contributed by the burning jet fuel, there is already four times more than enough to do the damage we saw.
Again, who cares? If we completely ignore the amount of energy contributed by the burning jet fuel, there is already four times more than enough to do the damage we saw.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Originally posted by Schneibster Again, who cares? If we completely ignore the amount of energy contributed by the burning jet fuel, there is already four times more than enough to do the damage we saw. |
Originally posted by metamars
From the wizard at
http://engineeringtoolbox.com/fuels-equiva...814qframed.html
we see that 7K gallon of #1 oil give heat = 121,562.899728751 kg wood
Roughly speaking, I will guess that if you made a person out of wood, then that person would weight 70 kg.
So we have the volume equivalent of 1736 people.
Seems reasonable that 1736 people would comfortably fit in 5 floors, and they would have about as much flammable material associated with them as their own weight (not from carpeting, but from books). So, it does seem reasonable to assume heat energy worth 1 jet planes did contribute to secondary fires. If you consider 10 floors as having burned, add the equivalent of 14 K gallons fuel.
Still way too little. Especially since, in the real world, I believe the overwhelming majority of the heat energy simply vented out the building
metamars To be quite honest, I don't understand what you are getting at... but I would agree that the majority of the heat energy would be vented out of the openings from the impacts (as can clearly be seen by the rapidly rising soot-filled dark smoke pouring out of both buildings).
Schneidster has added his .02 cents worth to the discussion of whether or not it was possible through physics that the buildings could have realistically fallen at near the rate of free-fall.
Much of his suppositions and postulations are based upon mathematical calculations of potential energy sources, however it is a little disconcerning to me that these 'inviolatable numbers' seem to change from post to post.
I recall some fantastic numbers (first proposed) that the jet fuel alone by far outweighed the energy budget to cause the buildings to collapse at near free-fall rates.
That was pretty quickly debunked, and now we are on to the massive potential energy stored in the burning of office contents.
Like you, I don't have unlimited play time to spend on responding to all posts with the thoroughness really required.
But, I must say that the energy input to be derived by adding the TOTAL available potential energy which could be derived by the complete combustion of all available fuel sources (which was never realized) is misleading, and I don't see how Schneidster justifies adding that into the "energy budget"... (at least not at this point).
Personally, I believe that Andrew Johnson is correct in his basic phsyics... that given 'resistance' to the upper falling mass by the uncompromised materials and structure below, the buildings could not have 'collapsed' at near the rate of free-fall. Simple physics denies that such an occurance can take place in the real world.
Leaving emotions aside ... (this IS an emotional issue, as well as a scientific question)...
...I think embellished emotional statements such as...
QUOTE
" just your grade level, too. "
...could probably be left out, without affecting the quantitative or qualitative science of that under discussion.
The 'fires' (regardless of whether they were based upon kerosene or office-contents) were not really anywhere near the conflagration which we have been led to believe they were.
There were NO full-floor infernos at all. This is clearly evident from studying the latest "Drafts" from NIST.
These normal office fires (which followed the initial ignition by jet-fuel) were more like flash fires racing through various parts of the impact zones. There was no concentration / build-up of heat over extended periods of time, as can clearly be seen by NIST's own computer-generated graphics shown below...
Fires on south face of North Tower (WTC 1) between 8:47 am - 10:28 am
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/untitled_Fire01.html
QUOTE ("Schneibster"+)
I am merely arguing that that collusion did NOT include extremely complicated demolitions work in public places, which would have involved a very large number of people and could hardly have been missed by the firefighters who explored a great deal of the building after the impact and prior to the collapse.
Schneibster, no offence, but this is obviously not your area of expertise. The people that planted bombs in at least three of the WTC buildings would have had to have rigged it BEFORE 9-11 (contact any controlled demolition company and ask them how long it would take to rig two 110-story buildings and one 47-story building for demolition).
And there WAS a window of opportunity for a group of individuals to plant explosives in those buildings undetected;
There are reports of a power down condition in at least one of the towers during the weekend before 9-11, reports that bomb sniffing dogs were removed from the WTC complex the Thursday before 9/11, and reports that the buildings at the WTC complex were evacuated several times in the days leading up to 9-11.
Larry Silverstein purchased the lease to the WTC complex only 6-7 weeks before 9-11. He's on tape saying that Building 7 was pulled which is an industry term for controlled demolition. If he was involved in 9-11 (knowingly or not), I think that the lease holder of the buildings would have been in a position to help make it possible for a group of individuals to enter those buildings and plant explosives undetected.
Firefighters reported bombs planted in the building. And so did the FBI. So did the NYPD. As well as many mainstream news reporters. And people who worked in the building. And several people on the street also described hearing explosions just before the South Tower collapsed.
Rescue workers at ground zero were told to move away from Building 7 because it was going to be brought down (here's a radio interview with rescue worker, Indira Singh. Forward approximately ten minutes into the interview to hear her story about being told to move away from WTC 7 because the building was going to be "brought down.").
The FDNY's own audio tapes from 9-11 describe bombs going off in the South Tower just before it collapsed, resembling controlled demolition. The tapes reveal that Firefighters and police reported hearing explosions in the towers before they collapsed.
Fire Officer, Paul Issac was seen and heard at ground zero last September 11 announcing to protesters and mourners of the 9-11 attacks that the FDNY AND NYPD know that 9-11 was an inside job. THEY KNOW! Bombs were planted in those buildings period (including Building 7 which was not hit by an airplane).
If you don't think your government would plan to terrorize its own citizens, I suggest you read the Northwoods documents. It was an official government plan from the 60s to stage terror attacks in the United States to blame on Cuba so the American people would support going to war.
Part of the plan was to load a US passenger jet with CIA personnel under carefully prepared aliases, land the plane at Elgin Air Force base in Florida to evacuate them, and to then replace the plane to its original airspace (by remote control) and then blow it up (by remote control). The plans also stated that the media would sell this to the world as an act of terrorism by Cuba giving the United States a pretext to go to war with them.
This plan was one signature away from being approved, however, it was not. The Joint Chiefs of Staff submitted the plan to secretary of defense, Robert McNamara, but he refused to sign on to it. The US instead escalated the war in Vietnam and the rest is history (See the Gulf of Tonkin incident).
I really wish none of this was true, but I'm fresh out of wishes right now, so I have to live with the reality that the September 11 attacks were staged for nefarious reasons by a rouge element within the United States government. But if you or anyone else wants to believe in the myth that it was 19 Arabs with box cutters that perpetrated it that's YOUR prerogative, not mine.
Schneibster, no offence, but this is obviously not your area of expertise. The people that planted bombs in at least three of the WTC buildings would have had to have rigged it BEFORE 9-11 (contact any controlled demolition company and ask them how long it would take to rig two 110-story buildings and one 47-story building for demolition).
And there WAS a window of opportunity for a group of individuals to plant explosives in those buildings undetected;
There are reports of a power down condition in at least one of the towers during the weekend before 9-11, reports that bomb sniffing dogs were removed from the WTC complex the Thursday before 9/11, and reports that the buildings at the WTC complex were evacuated several times in the days leading up to 9-11.
Larry Silverstein purchased the lease to the WTC complex only 6-7 weeks before 9-11. He's on tape saying that Building 7 was pulled which is an industry term for controlled demolition. If he was involved in 9-11 (knowingly or not), I think that the lease holder of the buildings would have been in a position to help make it possible for a group of individuals to enter those buildings and plant explosives undetected.
Firefighters reported bombs planted in the building. And so did the FBI. So did the NYPD. As well as many mainstream news reporters. And people who worked in the building. And several people on the street also described hearing explosions just before the South Tower collapsed.
Rescue workers at ground zero were told to move away from Building 7 because it was going to be brought down (here's a radio interview with rescue worker, Indira Singh. Forward approximately ten minutes into the interview to hear her story about being told to move away from WTC 7 because the building was going to be "brought down.").
The FDNY's own audio tapes from 9-11 describe bombs going off in the South Tower just before it collapsed, resembling controlled demolition. The tapes reveal that Firefighters and police reported hearing explosions in the towers before they collapsed.
Fire Officer, Paul Issac was seen and heard at ground zero last September 11 announcing to protesters and mourners of the 9-11 attacks that the FDNY AND NYPD know that 9-11 was an inside job. THEY KNOW! Bombs were planted in those buildings period (including Building 7 which was not hit by an airplane).
If you don't think your government would plan to terrorize its own citizens, I suggest you read the Northwoods documents. It was an official government plan from the 60s to stage terror attacks in the United States to blame on Cuba so the American people would support going to war.
Part of the plan was to load a US passenger jet with CIA personnel under carefully prepared aliases, land the plane at Elgin Air Force base in Florida to evacuate them, and to then replace the plane to its original airspace (by remote control) and then blow it up (by remote control). The plans also stated that the media would sell this to the world as an act of terrorism by Cuba giving the United States a pretext to go to war with them.
This plan was one signature away from being approved, however, it was not. The Joint Chiefs of Staff submitted the plan to secretary of defense, Robert McNamara, but he refused to sign on to it. The US instead escalated the war in Vietnam and the rest is history (See the Gulf of Tonkin incident).
I really wish none of this was true, but I'm fresh out of wishes right now, so I have to live with the reality that the September 11 attacks were staged for nefarious reasons by a rouge element within the United States government. But if you or anyone else wants to believe in the myth that it was 19 Arabs with box cutters that perpetrated it that's YOUR prerogative, not mine.
QUOTE
On the assumption that you missed it the first time, try this which states that the energy content of garbage is approximately 1/4 the energy content of coal; just your grade level, too.
What's your point? This same article says that the average American throws away 4.4 lbs. of garbage every day. I have guessed 70 kg of (non-jet fuel) flammable material per person and 1736 people on 5 floors. Add in 2 kg per person, and the effect is negligible.
QUOTE (metamars+)
What's your point?
Well, I guess it's over your head anyway. Never mind.
http://www.saunalahti.fi/wtc2001/military.htm
Writings of a Finnish military expert detailing the mini-nuke used to vaporize steel and concrete.
Writings of a Finnish military expert detailing the mini-nuke used to vaporize steel and concrete.
QUOTE (manifespo+Oct 20 2005, 05:27 AM)
http://www.saunalahti.fi/wtc2001/military.htm
Writings of a Finnish military expert detailing the mini-nuke used to vaporize steel and concrete.
Hi manifespo.
Interesting link.
I think Jim Hoffman has already pointed out that many of the observed physics related to the 'collapse' mechanisms involved with the WTC incident, can NOT BE readily explained by simple 'typical' demolition aspects of normal explosives.
Even with regular explosives as such as RDX , etc...
It would be difficult to reconcile the seemingly instant pulverization of non-metallic parts into micron-sized particulates.
Questions... questions... questions...
Welcome to the discussion
Cheers
Writings of a Finnish military expert detailing the mini-nuke used to vaporize steel and concrete.
Hi manifespo.
Interesting link.
I think Jim Hoffman has already pointed out that many of the observed physics related to the 'collapse' mechanisms involved with the WTC incident, can NOT BE readily explained by simple 'typical' demolition aspects of normal explosives.
Even with regular explosives as such as RDX , etc...
It would be difficult to reconcile the seemingly instant pulverization of non-metallic parts into micron-sized particulates.
Questions... questions... questions...
Welcome to the discussion
Cheers
QUOTE (Poxx+)
Schneidster has added his .02 cents worth to the discussion of whether or not it was possible through physics that the buildings could have realistically fallen at near the rate of free-fall.
Ummm, no, actually, I relied on the video evidence that showed that the fall took 14 seconds, and on the calculations that said free-fall is just over 9, and that free-fall for 14 seconds would require twice the height of the WTC towers.
This is called a "straw man" attack, in which you deliberately misrepresent what someone else said so that you can pretend you "disproved" it. Next time, read what I said and make sure you understand it, because if you misquote me, it WILL come back to haunt you.
This is about what I expected of you; so far, not one person I have ever debated on this subject has proven capable of reading what was written and agreeing with it. EVERYTHING I SAY has to be wrong, because it makes you feel bad. You'll go on now to become insulting, and dismiss what I say because I was mean to you. Too bad you let your emotions get tangled up with your thinking machinery; my bet is the entire WTC demolition thing is a turd blossom troll. But you gotta do what you're gonna do.
This is called a "straw man" attack, in which you deliberately misrepresent what someone else said so that you can pretend you "disproved" it. Next time, read what I said and make sure you understand it, because if you misquote me, it WILL come back to haunt you.
This is about what I expected of you; so far, not one person I have ever debated on this subject has proven capable of reading what was written and agreeing with it. EVERYTHING I SAY has to be wrong, because it makes you feel bad. You'll go on now to become insulting, and dismiss what I say because I was mean to you. Too bad you let your emotions get tangled up with your thinking machinery; my bet is the entire WTC demolition thing is a turd blossom troll. But you gotta do what you're gonna do.
QUOTE (Poxx+)
Much of his suppositions and postulations are based upon mathematical calculations of potential energy sources, however it is a little disconcerning to me that these 'inviolatable numbers' seem to change from post to post.
Nice statement; let's see some examples. You know, like, "substantiate your argument or withdraw it?" Honesty, and all like that? Far as I'm concerned, you like to be insulting, and I already gave more than fair warning about that. So buckle your seat belt, 'cause here we go.
This is your first lie. I have absolutely no question, not even having read your post, that it will not be your last. Let's see, shall we?
And how about that "much of his suppositions and postulations?" I think you'll find if you actually read and understood the material (big assumption here, that you CAN read and understand it- so far an unsubstantiated one) that each assumption is grounded in a link to data that substantiates it. I research this stuff, I don't just make it up like you do. But of course, since that's all you know, that's what you assume everyone does, right? Make it up?
I'll keep that in mind.
This is your first lie. I have absolutely no question, not even having read your post, that it will not be your last. Let's see, shall we?
And how about that "much of his suppositions and postulations?" I think you'll find if you actually read and understood the material (big assumption here, that you CAN read and understand it- so far an unsubstantiated one) that each assumption is grounded in a link to data that substantiates it. I research this stuff, I don't just make it up like you do. But of course, since that's all you know, that's what you assume everyone does, right? Make it up?
I'll keep that in mind.
QUOTE (Poxx+)
I recall some fantastic numbers (first proposed) that the jet fuel alone by far outweighed the energy budget to cause the buildings to collapse at near free-fall rates.
Lies number two and three and four.
1. Free fall rates is a lie.
2. That I said jet fuel had anything to do with the fall rate is a lie.
3. That the energy budget had anything to do with the rate of fall, or that I ever said it did, is a lie.
In fact, I told you that the jet fuel had outweighed the energy of collapse- which, by the way, is kinetic energy, a quantity you are woefully unfamiliar with. That is the energy that is possessed by a moving object, nothing more. However, it is energy- and energy is energy, whether it be from burning something, or dropping something, or from a nuclear reaction- it's all energy.
But of course, you wouldn't know that. As you've just demonstrated.
1. Free fall rates is a lie.
2. That I said jet fuel had anything to do with the fall rate is a lie.
3. That the energy budget had anything to do with the rate of fall, or that I ever said it did, is a lie.
In fact, I told you that the jet fuel had outweighed the energy of collapse- which, by the way, is kinetic energy, a quantity you are woefully unfamiliar with. That is the energy that is possessed by a moving object, nothing more. However, it is energy- and energy is energy, whether it be from burning something, or dropping something, or from a nuclear reaction- it's all energy.
But of course, you wouldn't know that. As you've just demonstrated.
QUOTE (Poxx+)
That was pretty quickly debunked, and now we are on to the massive potential energy stored in the burning of office contents.
"Debunked?" Bwahahaha, yeah, right, debunked by someone who doesn't know the difference between kinetic energy and jet fuel!
I suppose the inevitable comparison between kinetic energy and a certain nether portion of your anatomy, and jet fuel and the proverbial hole in the ground, suggests itself here, because you don't seem to know the difference between them, either.
And that makes this yet another lie, doesn't it? Problem is, I can't figure out whether you're lying or just to stone stupid to know you're wrong. I guess it doesn't really matter, though. Six of one and a half a dozen of the other.
I suppose the inevitable comparison between kinetic energy and a certain nether portion of your anatomy, and jet fuel and the proverbial hole in the ground, suggests itself here, because you don't seem to know the difference between them, either.
And that makes this yet another lie, doesn't it? Problem is, I can't figure out whether you're lying or just to stone stupid to know you're wrong. I guess it doesn't really matter, though. Six of one and a half a dozen of the other.
QUOTE (Poxx+)
Like you, I don't have unlimited play time to spend on responding to all posts with the thoroughness really required.
I think you'll find, to your chagrin, that I'm responding to this one pretty thoroughly, and in fact, this is yet another lie: I have responded to every inaccurate technical assertion made so far in this thread, and I do not propose to stop. Bomb me with horsepucky like this, and I will make a horse's *** of you, as I am now doing. Go ahead, lie some more so I can point it out some more. Nobody's missing any of it, sport.
QUOTE (Poxx+)
But, I must say that the energy input to be derived by adding the TOTAL available potential energy which could be derived by the complete combustion of all available fuel sources (which was never realized) is misleading, and I don't see how Schneidster justifies adding that into the "energy budget"... (at least not at this point).
That's because of that little reading comprehension problem of yours that I mentioned above. But that's OK, I'll explain it to you again in real short words so you can try to figure it out, K?
Energy is energy is energy. Energy does work. After doing work, it's still energy, but it's in a different form. The most common form for energy to be in after doing work is heat. Heat is energy too, and heat can also do work- but doing work with heat is always less efficient than doing it some other way.
All energy eventually becomes heat. You might have heard of this- it's called the "Second Law of Thermodynamics." Or then again, perhaps not- it seems to be a bit over your head, considering you don't know either the differences or the similarities between jet fuel and kinetic energy. Oh, my, there's that nether regions and hole in the ground thing again, isn't it? Seems to be a recurring theme. Which is no surprise to me, having read what you've spewed forth so far.
Energy is energy is energy. Energy does work. After doing work, it's still energy, but it's in a different form. The most common form for energy to be in after doing work is heat. Heat is energy too, and heat can also do work- but doing work with heat is always less efficient than doing it some other way.
All energy eventually becomes heat. You might have heard of this- it's called the "Second Law of Thermodynamics." Or then again, perhaps not- it seems to be a bit over your head, considering you don't know either the differences or the similarities between jet fuel and kinetic energy. Oh, my, there's that nether regions and hole in the ground thing again, isn't it? Seems to be a recurring theme. Which is no surprise to me, having read what you've spewed forth so far.
QUOTE (Poxx+)
Personally, I believe that Andrew Johnson is correct in his basic phsyics...
Oh, my, we can see YOU'RE qualified, can't we? Yeah, someone who doesn't know the difference between jet fuel and kinetic energy, you betcha, you're REAL qualified. Pull the other one, huh?
QUOTE (Poxx+)
that given 'resistance' to the upper falling mass by the uncompromised materials and structure below, the buildings could not have 'collapsed' at near the rate of free-fall. Simple physics denies that such an occurance can take place in the real world.
Yeah, it does, doesn't it? Isn't it interesting, then, that there was enough time for something to fall more than twice the height of the WTC tower during its collapse? Now, you don't suppose there might be some link there, do you? Nawww, couldn't be. It must have been the jet fuel.
Gimme a break, sport, you're a laugh a minute.
Gimme a break, sport, you're a laugh a minute.
QUOTE (Poxx+)
Leaving emotions aside ... (this IS an emotional issue, as well as a scientific question)...
...I think embellished emotional statements such as...
...could probably be left out, without affecting the quantitative or qualitative science of that under discussion.
...I think embellished emotional statements such as...
QUOTE
" just your grade level, too. "
...could probably be left out, without affecting the quantitative or qualitative science of that under discussion.
If we were actually discussing science, as opposed to your completely unscientific, totally ludicrous, and completely puerile blathering, then you might be right. As it is, since lying is being deployed against me, I have no hesitation in deploying scorn and ridicule in response. Stop lying, and start learning some actual physics before you post your idiotic maunderings on a physics web site, and perhaps you will receive a more polite response.
...could probably be left out, without affecting the quantitative or qualitative science of that under discussion.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| " just your grade level, too. " |
...could probably be left out, without affecting the quantitative or qualitative science of that under discussion.
If we were actually discussing science, as opposed to your completely unscientific, totally ludicrous, and completely puerile blathering, then you might be right. As it is, since lying is being deployed against me, I have no hesitation in deploying scorn and ridicule in response. Stop lying, and start learning some actual physics before you post your idiotic maunderings on a physics web site, and perhaps you will receive a more polite response.
The 'fires' (regardless of whether they were based upon kerosene or office-contents) were not really anywhere near the conflagration which we have been led to believe they were.
The 'fires' (regardless of whether they were based upon kerosene or office-contents) were not really anywhere near the conflagration which we have been led to believe they were.
Oh really? How nice. Here, I'll make an assertion, just like yours: yes, they were. And I've even provided just as much evidence as you have.
QUOTE (Poxx+)
There were NO full-floor infernos at all. This is clearly evident from studying the latest "Drafts" from NIST.
Yeah, and it's evident from studying all the photos that have red windows all the way across the face of the building, too. I bet that was just kids stringing red bunting up there to celebrate the demolition, huh? Gimme a break, everybody's seen the shot I'm talking about.
In addition, even supposing you're correct, who said there has to be an inferno of any kind? Don't you get it? Heat BUILDS UP UNDERNEATH THE FLOOR ABOVE. Temperature isn't heat. Heat is energy; temperature is not. Welcome to Basic physics, sport. Now go home.
In addition, even supposing you're correct, who said there has to be an inferno of any kind? Don't you get it? Heat BUILDS UP UNDERNEATH THE FLOOR ABOVE. Temperature isn't heat. Heat is energy; temperature is not. Welcome to Basic physics, sport. Now go home.
QUOTE (Poxx+)
These normal office fires (which followed the initial ignition by jet-fuel) were more like flash fires racing through various parts of the impact zones. There was no concentration / build-up of heat over extended periods of time, as can clearly be seen by NIST's own computer-generated graphics shown below...
You mean the ones where there's NO SMOKE COMING OUT? Oh, pardon me, those are from BEFORE THE PLANES HIT. Other than that, I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, and considering the quality of this post, almost no interest in ever finding out.
When will you stop lying? Will you ever? Only time will tell. But you can bet we'll be watching, and marking EVERY SINGLE LIE. What this is really about is, "how much of a fool ARE you, anyway?"
A note on the spelling of names: since you don't seem to know how to spell mine, I figured I might as well pick whatever spelling of yours I like to use in return. If you don't like it, my recommendation (already made more than once) is, don't dish it out.
Come back for some more after you've grown some of that skin back.
When will you stop lying? Will you ever? Only time will tell. But you can bet we'll be watching, and marking EVERY SINGLE LIE. What this is really about is, "how much of a fool ARE you, anyway?"
A note on the spelling of names: since you don't seem to know how to spell mine, I figured I might as well pick whatever spelling of yours I like to use in return. If you don't like it, my recommendation (already made more than once) is, don't dish it out.
Come back for some more after you've grown some of that skin back.
QUOTE (Schneibster+Oct 20 2005, 06:51 AM)
QUOTE (Poxx+)
Schneidster has added his .02 cents worth to the discussion of whether or not it was possible through physics that the buildings could have realistically fallen at near the rate of free-fall.
Ummm, no, actually, I relied on the video evidence that showed that the fall took 14 seconds, and on the calculations that said free-fall is just over 9, and that free-fall for 14 seconds would require twice the height of the WTC towers.
This is called a "straw man" attack, in which you deliberately misrepresent what someone else said so that you can pretend you "disproved" it. Next time, read what I said and make sure you understand it, because if you misquote me, it WILL come back to haunt you.
This is about what I expected of you; so far, not one person I have ever debated on this subject has proven capable of reading what was written and agreeing with it. EVERYTHING I SAY has to be wrong, because it makes you feel bad. You'll go on now to become insulting, and dismiss what I say because I was mean to you. Too bad you let your emotions get tangled up with your thinking machinery; my bet is the entire WTC demolition thing is a turd blossom troll. But you gotta do what you're gonna do.
This is called a "straw man" attack, in which you deliberately misrepresent what someone else said so that you can pretend you "disproved" it. Next time, read what I said and make sure you understand it, because if you misquote me, it WILL come back to haunt you.
This is about what I expected of you; so far, not one person I have ever debated on this subject has proven capable of reading what was written and agreeing with it. EVERYTHING I SAY has to be wrong, because it makes you feel bad. You'll go on now to become insulting, and dismiss what I say because I was mean to you. Too bad you let your emotions get tangled up with your thinking machinery; my bet is the entire WTC demolition thing is a turd blossom troll. But you gotta do what you're gonna do.
QUOTE (Poxx+)
Much of his suppositions and postulations are based upon mathematical calculations of potential energy sources, however it is a little disconcerning to me that these 'inviolatable numbers' seem to change from post to post.
Nice statement; let's see some examples. You know, like, "substantiate your argument or withdraw it?" Honesty, and all like that? Far as I'm concerned, you like to be insulting, and I already gave more than fair warning about that. So buckle your seat belt, 'cause here we go.
This is your first lie. I have absolutely no question, not even having read your post, that it will not be your last. Let's see, shall we?
And how about that "much of his suppositions and postulations?" I think you'll find if you actually read and understood the material (big assumption here, that you CAN read and understand it- so far an unsubstantiated one) that each assumption is grounded in a link to data that substantiates it. I research this stuff, I don't just make it up like you do. But of course, since that's all you know, that's what you assume everyone does, right? Make it up?
I'll keep that in mind.
This is your first lie. I have absolutely no question, not even having read your post, that it will not be your last. Let's see, shall we?
And how about that "much of his suppositions and postulations?" I think you'll find if you actually read and understood the material (big assumption here, that you CAN read and understand it- so far an unsubstantiated one) that each assumption is grounded in a link to data that substantiates it. I research this stuff, I don't just make it up like you do. But of course, since that's all you know, that's what you assume everyone does, right? Make it up?
I'll keep that in mind.
QUOTE (Poxx+)
I recall some fantastic numbers (first proposed) that the jet fuel alone by far outweighed the energy budget to cause the buildings to collapse at near free-fall rates.
Lies number two and three and four.
1. Free fall rates is a lie.
2. That I said jet fuel had anything to do with the fall rate is a lie.
3. That the energy budget had anything to do with the rate of fall, or that I ever said it did, is a lie.
In fact, I told you that the jet fuel had outweighed the energy of collapse- which, by the way, is kinetic energy, a quantity you are woefully unfamiliar with. That is the energy that is possessed by a moving object, nothing more. However, it is energy- and energy is energy, whether it be from burning something, or dropping something, or from a nuclear reaction- it's all energy.
But of course, you wouldn't know that. As you've just demonstrated.
1. Free fall rates is a lie.
2. That I said jet fuel had anything to do with the fall rate is a lie.
3. That the energy budget had anything to do with the rate of fall, or that I ever said it did, is a lie.
In fact, I told you that the jet fuel had outweighed the energy of collapse- which, by the way, is kinetic energy, a quantity you are woefully unfamiliar with. That is the energy that is possessed by a moving object, nothing more. However, it is energy- and energy is energy, whether it be from burning something, or dropping something, or from a nuclear reaction- it's all energy.
But of course, you wouldn't know that. As you've just demonstrated.
QUOTE (Poxx+)
That was pretty quickly debunked, and now we are on to the massive potential energy stored in the burning of office contents.
"Debunked?" Bwahahaha, yeah, right, debunked by someone who doesn't know the difference between kinetic energy and jet fuel!
I suppose the inevitable comparison between kinetic energy and a certain nether portion of your anatomy, and jet fuel and the proverbial hole in the ground, suggests itself here, because you don't seem to know the difference between them, either.
And that makes this yet another lie, doesn't it? Problem is, I can't figure out whether you're lying or just to stone stupid to know you're wrong. I guess it doesn't really matter, though. Six of one and a half a dozen of the other.
I suppose the inevitable comparison between kinetic energy and a certain nether portion of your anatomy, and jet fuel and the proverbial hole in the ground, suggests itself here, because you don't seem to know the difference between them, either.
And that makes this yet another lie, doesn't it? Problem is, I can't figure out whether you're lying or just to stone stupid to know you're wrong. I guess it doesn't really matter, though. Six of one and a half a dozen of the other.
QUOTE (Poxx+)
Like you, I don't have unlimited play time to spend on responding to all posts with the thoroughness really required.
I think you'll find, to your chagrin, that I'm responding to this one pretty thoroughly, and in fact, this is yet another lie: I have responded to every inaccurate technical assertion made so far in this thread, and I do not propose to stop. Bomb me with horsepucky like this, and I will make a horse's *** of you, as I am now doing. Go ahead, lie some more so I can point it out some more. Nobody's missing any of it, sport.
QUOTE (Poxx+)
But, I must say that the energy input to be derived by adding the TOTAL available potential energy which could be derived by the complete combustion of all available fuel sources (which was never realized) is misleading, and I don't see how Schneidster justifies adding that into the "energy budget"... (at least not at this point).
That's because of that little reading comprehension problem of yours that I mentioned above. But that's OK, I'll explain it to you again in real short words so you can try to figure it out, K?
Energy is energy is energy. Energy does work. After doing work, it's still energy, but it's in a different form. The most common form for energy to be in after doing work is heat. Heat is energy too, and heat can also do work- but doing work with heat is always less efficient than doing it some other way.
All energy eventually becomes heat. You might have heard of this- it's called the "Second Law of Thermodynamics." Or then again, perhaps not- it seems to be a bit over your head, considering you don't know either the differences or the similarities between jet fuel and kinetic energy. Oh, my, there's that nether regions and hole in the ground thing again, isn't it? Seems to be a recurring theme. Which is no surprise to me, having read what you've spewed forth so far.
Energy is energy is energy. Energy does work. After doing work, it's still energy, but it's in a different form. The most common form for energy to be in after doing work is heat. Heat is energy too, and heat can also do work- but doing work with heat is always less efficient than doing it some other way.
All energy eventually becomes heat. You might have heard of this- it's called the "Second Law of Thermodynamics." Or then again, perhaps not- it seems to be a bit over your head, considering you don't know either the differences or the similarities between jet fuel and kinetic energy. Oh, my, there's that nether regions and hole in the ground thing again, isn't it? Seems to be a recurring theme. Which is no surprise to me, having read what you've spewed forth so far.
QUOTE (Poxx+)
Personally, I believe that Andrew Johnson is correct in his basic phsyics...
Oh, my, we can see YOU'RE qualified, can't we? Yeah, someone who doesn't know the difference between jet fuel and kinetic energy, you betcha, you're REAL qualified. Pull the other one, huh?
QUOTE (Poxx+)
that given 'resistance' to the upper falling mass by the uncompromised materials and structure below, the buildings could not have 'collapsed' at near the rate of free-fall. Simple physics denies that such an occurance can take place in the real world.
Yeah, it does, doesn't it? Isn't it interesting, then, that there was enough time for something to fall more than twice the height of the WTC tower during its collapse? Now, you don't suppose there might be some link there, do you? Nawww, couldn't be. It must have been the jet fuel.
Gimme a break, sport, you're a laugh a minute.
Gimme a break, sport, you're a laugh a minute.
QUOTE (Poxx+)
Leaving emotions aside ... (this IS an emotional issue, as well as a scientific question)...
...I think embellished emotional statements such as...
...could probably be left out, without affecting the quantitative or qualitative science of that under discussion.
...I think embellished emotional statements such as...
QUOTE
" just your grade level, too. "
...could probably be left out, without affecting the quantitative or qualitative science of that under discussion.
If we were actually discussing science, as opposed to your completely unscientific, totally ludicrous, and completely puerile blathering, then you might be right. As it is, since lying is being deployed against me, I have no hesitation in deploying scorn and ridicule in response. Stop lying, and start learning some actual physics before you post your idiotic maunderings on a physics web site, and perhaps you will receive a more polite response.
...could probably be left out, without affecting the quantitative or qualitative science of that under discussion.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| " just your grade level, too. " |
...could probably be left out, without affecting the quantitative or qualitative science of that under discussion.
If we were actually discussing science, as opposed to your completely unscientific, totally ludicrous, and completely puerile blathering, then you might be right. As it is, since lying is being deployed against me, I have no hesitation in deploying scorn and ridicule in response. Stop lying, and start learning some actual physics before you post your idiotic maunderings on a physics web site, and perhaps you will receive a more polite response.
The 'fires' (regardless of whether they were based upon kerosene or office-contents) were not really anywhere near the conflagration which we have been led to believe they were.
The 'fires' (regardless of whether they were based upon kerosene or office-contents) were not really anywhere near the conflagration which we have been led to believe they were.
Oh really? How nice. Here, I'll make an assertion, just like yours: yes, they were. And I've even provided just as much evidence as you have.
QUOTE (Poxx+)
There were NO full-floor infernos at all. This is clearly evident from studying the latest "Drafts" from NIST.
Yeah, and it's evident from studying all the photos that have red windows all the way across the face of the building, too. I bet that was just kids stringing red bunting up there to celebrate the demolition, huh? Gimme a break, everybody's seen the shot I'm talking about.
In addition, even supposing you're correct, who said there has to be an inferno of any kind? Don't you get it? Heat BUILDS UP UNDERNEATH THE FLOOR ABOVE. Temperature isn't heat. Heat is energy; temperature is not. Welcome to Basic physics, sport. Now go home.
In addition, even supposing you're correct, who said there has to be an inferno of any kind? Don't you get it? Heat BUILDS UP UNDERNEATH THE FLOOR ABOVE. Temperature isn't heat. Heat is energy; temperature is not. Welcome to Basic physics, sport. Now go home.
QUOTE (Poxx+)
These normal office fires (which followed the initial ignition by jet-fuel) were more like flash fires racing through various parts of the impact zones. There was no concentration / build-up of heat over extended periods of time, as can clearly be seen by NIST's own computer-generated graphics shown below...
Let's say it is over my head. Unless you believe it's over everybody else's head, also, you should explain why the coal / garbage analogy is relavent to the debate.
Once again, you are obscuring the untenability of your position with insults. If I'm wrong, you should explain for the rest of the forum members who are not a hopeless as myself, but not as brilliant as you.
What's your point?
Well, I guess it's over your head anyway. Never mind.
Let's say it is over my head. Unless you believe it's over everybody else's head, also, you should explain why the coal / garbage analogy is relavent to the debate.
Once again, you are obscuring the untenability of your position with insults. If I'm wrong, you should explain for the rest of the forum members who are not a hopeless as myself, but not as brilliant as you.
Is there anybody else who would like Schneibster to explain the significance of the coal / garbage ratio? (bearing in mind the 4.4 lbs. per day of garbage figure his reference tells us about.)
Also, is there anybody else who would like Schneibster to explain why "steel creep" had anything significant to do with the collapse?
Silly me, but I just can't take his word for it, any more than I can take "RealityCheck" 's word on the significance of adding the heat of combustion of human bodies (which are mostly water) to the heat source....
I'm especially eagerly anticipating the steel creep 'explanation'. That should be a good one!
You mean the ones where there's NO SMOKE COMING OUT? Oh, pardon me, those are from BEFORE THE PLANES HIT. Other than that, I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, and considering the quality of this post, almost no interest in ever finding out.
When will you stop lying? Will you ever? Only time will tell. But you can bet we'll be watching, and marking EVERY SINGLE LIE. What this is really about is, "how much of a fool ARE you, anyway?"
A note on the spelling of names: since you don't seem to know how to spell mine, I figured I might as well pick whatever spelling of yours I like to use in return. If you don't like it, my recommendation (already made more than once) is, don't dish it out.
Come back for some more after you've grown some of that skin back.
Lemme guess... You are 4'6" in height, and have a Napoleonic Complex?
Point out where I have insulted you, young grasshopper?
Not only do you seem to exhibit the classic Napoleonic Complex syndrome, but also exhibit paranoid delusional characteristics in your postings that ... "everyone is out to get you".
It is readily apparent to any objective observers WHO is doing the 'insulting' on this thread.
If you wish to be part of this discussion, try to leave your caustic & insulting remarks at the door before entering.
Cheers
When will you stop lying? Will you ever? Only time will tell. But you can bet we'll be watching, and marking EVERY SINGLE LIE. What this is really about is, "how much of a fool ARE you, anyway?"
A note on the spelling of names: since you don't seem to know how to spell mine, I figured I might as well pick whatever spelling of yours I like to use in return. If you don't like it, my recommendation (already made more than once) is, don't dish it out.
Come back for some more after you've grown some of that skin back.
Lemme guess... You are 4'6" in height, and have a Napoleonic Complex?
Point out where I have insulted you, young grasshopper?
Not only do you seem to exhibit the classic Napoleonic Complex syndrome, but also exhibit paranoid delusional characteristics in your postings that ... "everyone is out to get you".
It is readily apparent to any objective observers WHO is doing the 'insulting' on this thread.
If you wish to be part of this discussion, try to leave your caustic & insulting remarks at the door before entering.
Cheers
QUOTE
QUOTE (metamars)
What's your point?
Well, I guess it's over your head anyway. Never mind.
What's your point?
Well, I guess it's over your head anyway. Never mind.
Let's say it is over my head. Unless you believe it's over everybody else's head, also, you should explain why the coal / garbage analogy is relavent to the debate.
Once again, you are obscuring the untenability of your position with insults. If I'm wrong, you should explain for the rest of the forum members who are not a hopeless as myself, but not as brilliant as you.
QUOTE
What's your point?
Well, I guess it's over your head anyway. Never mind.
Let's say it is over my head. Unless you believe it's over everybody else's head, also, you should explain why the coal / garbage analogy is relavent to the debate.
Once again, you are obscuring the untenability of your position with insults. If I'm wrong, you should explain for the rest of the forum members who are not a hopeless as myself, but not as brilliant as you.
Is there anybody else who would like Schneibster to explain the significance of the coal / garbage ratio? (bearing in mind the 4.4 lbs. per day of garbage figure his reference tells us about.)
Also, is there anybody else who would like Schneibster to explain why "steel creep" had anything significant to do with the collapse?
Silly me, but I just can't take his word for it, any more than I can take "RealityCheck" 's word on the significance of adding the heat of combustion of human bodies (which are mostly water) to the heat source....
I'm especially eagerly anticipating the steel creep 'explanation'. That should be a good one!
It seems to me that Schneibster is actually a wizard at making up imaginary numbers to support his case. For example, without understanding how FEMA came up with their 3500 gal figure, he claims FEMA got it wrong and there was actually 7000 gallons. Undaunted by this mistake he sails off into his imaginary calculations. Always seeking ways to increase the energy input somehow he adds the following...
Although the vast majority of the fireball (especially in the south tower) explodes outside of the building, half of this heat expenditure magically creeps back inside the building. He seems to not realize that when FEMA estimates the 3000 gal of fuel lost in the fireball, they are referring to the fireball outside of the building which was 10 - 20 times the size of the fireball within the building. FEMA rightly subtracts this fuel from their equation, while Schneibster desperately seeks ways to add it back in.
Although the vast majority of the fireball (especially in the south tower) explodes outside of the building, half of this heat expenditure magically creeps back inside the building. He seems to not realize that when FEMA estimates the 3000 gal of fuel lost in the fireball, they are referring to the fireball outside of the building which was 10 - 20 times the size of the fireball within the building. FEMA rightly subtracts this fuel from their equation, while Schneibster desperately seeks ways to add it back in.
this is a confined space, and heat radiates (there isn't time for conduction, and convection doesn't occur in solid materials), so the bulk of the radiated heat would have been absorbed by the building directly rather than radiated out into the surrounding air;
As I see it, the above is some of the most convoluted reasoning I have seen. After admitting that "there isn't time for conduction" (they fireball was gone in a few seconds) somehow magically this radiated heat which had somehow snuck back inside, was absorbed into the building (rather than being radiated out into the surrounding air). What total bunk. I am sure there are some who will lap this nonsense up readily, but I am not one of them.
In actual fact the heat energy (from that part of the fireball which was within the building) was conserved through igniting flammable contents within the building. It was gone so fast there was no opportunity for the steel and concrete to absorb the heat from it and apart from that which went into igniting other flammables, the rest would have radiated into the air and been lost to the atmosphere. This energy must be subtracted from the total energy budget, but "somehow" through this convoluted logic he desperately adds it in anyway.
Pretending that these are "conservative numbers", we are back to edging the numbers up again towards the 10,000 gallon mark. The rest of the calculations are based upon erroneous axioms to begin with, so I see no need to address them. They are simply wrong.
Pretending that these are "conservative numbers", we are back to edging the numbers up again towards the 10,000 gallon mark. The rest of the calculations are based upon erroneous axioms to begin with, so I see no need to address them. They are simply wrong.
This spike is due to the latent heat of fusion, that is, the heat required to bring the iron to its liquid phase, once the liquid temperature is achieved
And here we are again back to melting the steel (which even Eagar has dismissed), although I see Dr Hyman Brown is still spouting this nonsense....
Does anyone still believe this nonsense? It appears that Schneibster does. Will the Real Dr Hyman Brown please stand up. Maybe that is Schneibsters real name.
As Kevin Ryan rightly stated...
Does anyone still believe this nonsense? It appears that Schneibster does. Will the Real Dr Hyman Brown please stand up. Maybe that is Schneibsters real name.
As Kevin Ryan rightly stated...
"We know that the steel components were certified to ASTM E119. The time temperature curves for this standard require the samples to be exposed to temperatures around 2000F for several hours. And as we all agree, the steel applied met those specifications. Additionally, I think we can all agree that even un-fireproofed steel will not melt until reaching red-hot temperatures of nearly 3000F (2). Why Dr. Brown would imply that 2000F would melt the high-grade steel used in those buildings makes no sense at all.
Reference 2 : CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, 61st edition, pg D-187
Nevertheless, through his convoluted numbers, Schneibster still attempts to 'prove' this already discredited theory of melting steel caused by jet fuel and/or office content fires. His calculations (magical mathematical wizardry) are unadulterated Nonsense.
QUOTE
Second, at least half of that heat (from the fireball) would have remained in the building, and that's a conservative estimate-
Although the vast majority of the fireball (especially in the south tower) explodes outside of the building, half of this heat expenditure magically creeps back inside the building. He seems to not realize that when FEMA estimates the 3000 gal of fuel lost in the fireball, they are referring to the fireball outside of the building which was 10 - 20 times the size of the fireball within the building. FEMA rightly subtracts this fuel from their equation, while Schneibster desperately seeks ways to add it back in.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Second, at least half of that heat (from the fireball) would have remained in the building, and that's a conservative estimate- |
Although the vast majority of the fireball (especially in the south tower) explodes outside of the building, half of this heat expenditure magically creeps back inside the building. He seems to not realize that when FEMA estimates the 3000 gal of fuel lost in the fireball, they are referring to the fireball outside of the building which was 10 - 20 times the size of the fireball within the building. FEMA rightly subtracts this fuel from their equation, while Schneibster desperately seeks ways to add it back in.
this is a confined space, and heat radiates (there isn't time for conduction, and convection doesn't occur in solid materials), so the bulk of the radiated heat would have been absorbed by the building directly rather than radiated out into the surrounding air;
As I see it, the above is some of the most convoluted reasoning I have seen. After admitting that "there isn't time for conduction" (they fireball was gone in a few seconds) somehow magically this radiated heat which had somehow snuck back inside, was absorbed into the building (rather than being radiated out into the surrounding air). What total bunk. I am sure there are some who will lap this nonsense up readily, but I am not one of them.
In actual fact the heat energy (from that part of the fireball which was within the building) was conserved through igniting flammable contents within the building. It was gone so fast there was no opportunity for the steel and concrete to absorb the heat from it and apart from that which went into igniting other flammables, the rest would have radiated into the air and been lost to the atmosphere. This energy must be subtracted from the total energy budget, but "somehow" through this convoluted logic he desperately adds it in anyway.
QUOTE
75% might be a more realistic figure- but we'll go with 50%, to be conservative. So we'll add 1,500 gallons worth of energy to our budget. So that's 8,500 gallons worth, all told.
Pretending that these are "conservative numbers", we are back to edging the numbers up again towards the 10,000 gallon mark. The rest of the calculations are based upon erroneous axioms to begin with, so I see no need to address them. They are simply wrong.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| 75% might be a more realistic figure- but we'll go with 50%, to be conservative. So we'll add 1,500 gallons worth of energy to our budget. So that's 8,500 gallons worth, all told. |
Pretending that these are "conservative numbers", we are back to edging the numbers up again towards the 10,000 gallon mark. The rest of the calculations are based upon erroneous axioms to begin with, so I see no need to address them. They are simply wrong.
This spike is due to the latent heat of fusion, that is, the heat required to bring the iron to its liquid phase, once the liquid temperature is achieved
And here we are again back to melting the steel (which even Eagar has dismissed), although I see Dr Hyman Brown is still spouting this nonsense....
QUOTE
From Dr Hyman Brown
“What caused the building to collapse is the airplane fuel . . . burning at 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit. The steel in that five-floor area melts.”
“What caused the building to collapse is the airplane fuel . . . burning at 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit. The steel in that five-floor area melts.”
Does anyone still believe this nonsense? It appears that Schneibster does. Will the Real Dr Hyman Brown please stand up. Maybe that is Schneibsters real name.
As Kevin Ryan rightly stated...
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| From Dr Hyman Brown “What caused the building to collapse is the airplane fuel . . . burning at 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit. The steel in that five-floor area melts.” |
Does anyone still believe this nonsense? It appears that Schneibster does. Will the Real Dr Hyman Brown please stand up. Maybe that is Schneibsters real name.
As Kevin Ryan rightly stated...
"We know that the steel components were certified to ASTM E119. The time temperature curves for this standard require the samples to be exposed to temperatures around 2000F for several hours. And as we all agree, the steel applied met those specifications. Additionally, I think we can all agree that even un-fireproofed steel will not melt until reaching red-hot temperatures of nearly 3000F (2). Why Dr. Brown would imply that 2000F would melt the high-grade steel used in those buildings makes no sense at all.
Reference 2 : CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, 61st edition, pg D-187
Nevertheless, through his convoluted numbers, Schneibster still attempts to 'prove' this already discredited theory of melting steel caused by jet fuel and/or office content fires. His calculations (magical mathematical wizardry) are unadulterated Nonsense.
Always nice to see someone assert that someone is wrong because they were mean to them. You gotta love logic, don't you?
QUOTE (Poxx+)
Point out where I have insulted you, young grasshopper?
I did- in detail. If you're not bright enough to figure it out, I have no doubt that others are less... hmmm... biased.
If you wish to be part of a serious technical discussion, I suggest that you might want to consider acquiring some technical acumen first.
If you wish to be part of a serious technical discussion, I suggest that you might want to consider acquiring some technical acumen first.
You can't read any better than you can think, can you, metamars?
QUOTE (Schneibster+)
garbage is going to be comparable in energy content to the paper, plastic, wood, and cloth on those floors
Now, would you like me to justify that? Go look in your garbage can. What do you see? Paper, plastic, a little wood, maybe some cloth, and some organic material. And some metal, perhaps. And what, you ask, would have been spread around on those floors after they were hit with a jet aircraft? Well, hmmm, paper, plastic, wood, cloth, and organic material. Sounds like garbage to me, and even more it sounds like it might be a pretty conservative estimate of the energy content of that garbage, too- I bet there was more paper, for instance, which has a surprisingly high energy content.
You see, if you actually read what I wrote, instead of assuming I didn't know what I was talking about, you might actually learn something- but that seems beyond you. Oh well.
While we're on the subject,
I see. So the 4.4 lbs. per day of garbage that an American generates, which is equal in heat energy to a whopping 1.1. lbs. per day of coal, is matched by the energy content of the paper, plastic, wood and cloth on those floors.
Well, shucks, I don't need my calculator to figure out that that means
2.2 lbs. of coal per person.
Again, I repeat, what is your point? Do you seriously think you're going to convince anybody that this is enough to melt steel beams?
I see. So the 4.4 lbs. per day of garbage that an American generates, which is equal in heat energy to a whopping 1.1. lbs. per day of coal, is matched by the energy content of the paper, plastic, wood and cloth on those floors.
Well, shucks, I don't need my calculator to figure out that that means
2.2 lbs. of coal per person.
Again, I repeat, what is your point? Do you seriously think you're going to convince anybody that this is enough to melt steel beams?
Or perhaps all those pictures of the red-hot glow visible in broad daylight inside the windows?
Please post a link to just one of those pictures of "the red-hot glow visible in broad daylight inside the windows" I assume you mean red-hot glow of STEEL, not the red-hot glow of FIRE.
Certainly, if you mean the red-hot glow of fire, I can only ask, again, what is your point?
I'm sure that some of the WTC workers were smokers. Well, you know what that means: cigarettes and matches! Woo-hoo! Maybe that's the source of the missing energy. Shucks, why didn't I think of that! We better warn the smokers of the world right away! No smoking in cars, your car may collapse into it's footprint and turn to powder!
As for a picture of a non-red-hot glow of WTC steel, once again, check it out:
You see, if you actually read what I wrote, instead of assuming I didn't know what I was talking about, you might actually learn something- but that seems beyond you. Oh well.
While we're on the subject,
QUOTE (metamars+)
Also, is there anybody else who would like Schneibster to explain why "steel creep" had anything significant to do with the collapse?
Well, now, what's your first clue that something that happens to steel when it gets hot just might have something to do with how the WTC collapsed? Might it have been the large clouds of smoke issuing from the building? Or perhaps all those pictures of the red-hot glow visible in broad daylight inside the windows? Well, never mind all that, it must have been demolitions, right?
Like I said earlier, are you REALLY this dumb, or did you have to PRACTICE?
Like I said earlier, are you REALLY this dumb, or did you have to PRACTICE?
QUOTE
garbage is going to be comparable in energy content to the paper, plastic, wood, and cloth on those floors
I see. So the 4.4 lbs. per day of garbage that an American generates, which is equal in heat energy to a whopping 1.1. lbs. per day of coal, is matched by the energy content of the paper, plastic, wood and cloth on those floors.
Well, shucks, I don't need my calculator to figure out that that means
2.2 lbs. of coal per person.
Again, I repeat, what is your point? Do you seriously think you're going to convince anybody that this is enough to melt steel beams?
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| garbage is going to be comparable in energy content to the paper, plastic, wood, and cloth on those floors |
I see. So the 4.4 lbs. per day of garbage that an American generates, which is equal in heat energy to a whopping 1.1. lbs. per day of coal, is matched by the energy content of the paper, plastic, wood and cloth on those floors.
Well, shucks, I don't need my calculator to figure out that that means
2.2 lbs. of coal per person.
Again, I repeat, what is your point? Do you seriously think you're going to convince anybody that this is enough to melt steel beams?
Or perhaps all those pictures of the red-hot glow visible in broad daylight inside the windows?
Please post a link to just one of those pictures of "the red-hot glow visible in broad daylight inside the windows" I assume you mean red-hot glow of STEEL, not the red-hot glow of FIRE.
Certainly, if you mean the red-hot glow of fire, I can only ask, again, what is your point?
I'm sure that some of the WTC workers were smokers. Well, you know what that means: cigarettes and matches! Woo-hoo! Maybe that's the source of the missing energy. Shucks, why didn't I think of that! We better warn the smokers of the world right away! No smoking in cars, your car may collapse into it's footprint and turn to powder!
As for a picture of a non-red-hot glow of WTC steel, once again, check it out:
Foxx, old man, you know, at some point you're going to have to stop all this lying. It's unseemly. Meanwhile, since you seem to have miraculously figured out how to spell "Schneibster," I guess you have earned the right not to have your handle misspelled.
QUOTE (Foxx+)
It seems to me that Schneibster is actually a wizard at making up imaginary numbers to support his case.
If you would actually provide a quote that proves this insult, for the second time of asking, I might be more impressed. What I see here is someone who is desperate to "prove" their beLIEf using other peoples' figures, as far as I can tell because you are incapable of deriving them yourself. What are you doing on a physics board, anyway? Do you have any physics to contribute? I haven't seen any from you so far. Just insults like this, followed by claims that you haven't been insulting.
Meanwhile, for the second time, who cares how much jet fuel there was? If we completely ignore the jet fuel, there is still more than enough burnable material to completely melt every scrap of steel on one of those floors twice over, even assuming that the amount of steel in a top floor and a bottom floor was the same (when we know for a fact that there would have been much less on a top floor). I note that you have not disputed this; the reason is simple, because you cannot, both because it is in line with the obvious facts of the situation, and because you lack the technical skills and knowledge to do so even if it were not.
Meanwhile, for the second time, who cares how much jet fuel there was? If we completely ignore the jet fuel, there is still more than enough burnable material to completely melt every scrap of steel on one of those floors twice over, even assuming that the amount of steel in a top floor and a bottom floor was the same (when we know for a fact that there would have been much less on a top floor). I note that you have not disputed this; the reason is simple, because you cannot, both because it is in line with the obvious facts of the situation, and because you lack the technical skills and knowledge to do so even if it were not.
QUOTE (Foxx+)
For example, without understanding how FEMA came up with their 3500 gal figure, he claims FEMA got it wrong and there was actually 7000 gallons.
Actually, being completely uninterested in the amount of jet fuel when I realized how much energy there was in the contents of the floor, and having absolutely no confidence in anything FEMA might write, I wasn't really interested. I'll point out yet again that you completely ignore the largest source of energy involved, as most others seem to have done: the contents of the floors. It accounts for both the collapse and the pyroclastic cloud quite neatly. You could completely ignore the jet fuel, pretend it didn't even exist except as a source of ignition for the floor contents, and there would still be plenty of energy left.
As I said, straining at a gnat after swallowing a camel.
The remainder of your post concerns the jet fuel, and I've said all I have to say about the jet fuel. It's unimportant. It is worth noting, however, that you broke energy conservation again, here:
As I said, straining at a gnat after swallowing a camel.
The remainder of your post concerns the jet fuel, and I've said all I have to say about the jet fuel. It's unimportant. It is worth noting, however, that you broke energy conservation again, here:
QUOTE (Foxx+)
In actual fact the heat energy (from that part of the fireball which was within the building) was conserved through igniting flammable contents within the building. It was gone so fast there was no opportunity for the steel and concrete to absorb the heat from it and apart from that which went into igniting other flammables, the rest would have radiated into the air and been lost to the atmosphere.
and that you have absolutely no understanding of the difference between convection, conduction, and radiation of heat, here:
QUOTE (Foxx+)
After admitting that "there isn't time for conduction" (they fireball was gone in a few seconds) somehow magically this radiated heat which had somehow snuck back inside, was absorbed into the building (rather than being radiated out into the surrounding air).
nor of the fact that radiant heat moves like light: in straight lines, and is absorbed by whatever it strikes. So where does the radiant heat from a fireball inside a confined space go? Gee, I wonder where that might be. Just off into space, right? Straight out all those windows, without ever touching any part of the interior of the building. Yahsureyabetcha. How about the convective heat of the fireball? Gee, last time I checked, FIRE BURNS UP. And the debris is all on the floor; so if some of the heat was convective, I wonder where it goes? Hmmm... UP PERHAPS?
You're funny, Foxx. Are you seriously trying to push this horsepucky on a PHYSICS web site? And you think you're not going to come across anyone who knows better? Hee hee, boy have I got news for you.
Then, we have this:
You're funny, Foxx. Are you seriously trying to push this horsepucky on a PHYSICS web site? And you think you're not going to come across anyone who knows better? Hee hee, boy have I got news for you.
Then, we have this:
QUOTE (Foxx+)
And here we are again back to melting the steel (which even Eagar has dismissed), although I see Dr Hyman Brown is still spouting this nonsense....
The point was not that the steel melted; the point was that there was more than sufficient energy in the office contents ALONE to melt the steel, which means there was more than sufficient energy to WEAKEN the steel. In case you hadn't noticed, a funny thing happens to steel when it gets hot: its Young modulus decreases, which means that it becomes less elastic. It's one of those, you know, PHYSICS things that you just don't seem to get. When a material loses its elasticity, and is under a load, guess what happens? You don't suppose it would... BEND... now do you? Nawww, couldn't be, teh gummint musta blowed it up.
QUOTE (Kevin Ryan+)
"We know that the steel components were certified to ASTM E119. The time temperature curves for this standard require the samples to be exposed to temperatures around 2000F for several hours.
This is a lie. Please examine this which correctly states, "The endpoint for the ASTM E119 test on steel beams occurs when either all of the thermocouples on the sample reach an average of 1000F or any individual thermocouples on the sample exceed 1200F." Note that these are thermocouples on the unexposed side of the sample, which indicate the amount of heat that the sample has absorbed.
In addition, ASTM E119 specifies a time-temperature curve; as can be seen from the appended data points in the above reference, this curve never exceeds 1900F. Furthermore, ASTM E119 does not specify how long the sample is to be exposed; the standard exposure times are one, two, three, or four hours. The sample is evaluated on the basis of whether it has passed or failed at each hour mark, and on the basis of the testing, the fire safety rating is assigned as one hour, two hours, three hours, or four hours. No data have been presented here to show which rating the steel in the WTC achieved.
Obviously, the temperature of a fire depends on the quantity of fuel available, and the rate at which that fuel burns, and the rate at which heat is lost to the environment. A well-fueled, well-ventilated fire (which this obviously was) is extremely likely to develop temperatures well in excess of 1900F or even 2000F; to put this in perspective, we are talking about 1037C to 1093C. However, due to the initial production of heat by the fireballing jet fuel, it is likely that fire temperatures were given a "jump start," thus heating the building contents more quickly than in the ASTM E119 test.
But all of that aside, this quote was my favorite in the whole post:
In addition, ASTM E119 specifies a time-temperature curve; as can be seen from the appended data points in the above reference, this curve never exceeds 1900F. Furthermore, ASTM E119 does not specify how long the sample is to be exposed; the standard exposure times are one, two, three, or four hours. The sample is evaluated on the basis of whether it has passed or failed at each hour mark, and on the basis of the testing, the fire safety rating is assigned as one hour, two hours, three hours, or four hours. No data have been presented here to show which rating the steel in the WTC achieved.
Obviously, the temperature of a fire depends on the quantity of fuel available, and the rate at which that fuel burns, and the rate at which heat is lost to the environment. A well-fueled, well-ventilated fire (which this obviously was) is extremely likely to develop temperatures well in excess of 1900F or even 2000F; to put this in perspective, we are talking about 1037C to 1093C. However, due to the initial production of heat by the fireballing jet fuel, it is likely that fire temperatures were given a "jump start," thus heating the building contents more quickly than in the ASTM E119 test.
But all of that aside, this quote was my favorite in the whole post:
QUOTE (Foxx+)
Nevertheless, through his convoluted numbers, Schneibster still attempts to 'prove' this already discredited theory of melting steel caused by jet fuel and/or office content fires.
This is a two-fer; first, the numbers aren't convoluted in any way, shape, form, or fashion. This is high-school algebra, sport. The fact that you consider it "convoluted" is the clearest possible indication of your state of knowledge; you wanna see "convoluted," take a look at a numerical simulation program or a quantum mechanics probability calculation; this here is SIMPLE.
Second, your statement that I am attempting to prove that the steel all melted is a lie; I am attempting to prove nothing of the kind.
Third, your statement that I am attempting to prove that anything happened other than ignition of the office contents due to the jet fuel is another lie; I explicitly stated that even ignoring the energy of the jet fuel, there is more than enough energy from the office contents to melt the entire floor; obviously, the floor would collapse long before that could happen.
Are you ever going to stop lying?
Second, your statement that I am attempting to prove that the steel all melted is a lie; I am attempting to prove nothing of the kind.
Third, your statement that I am attempting to prove that anything happened other than ignition of the office contents due to the jet fuel is another lie; I explicitly stated that even ignoring the energy of the jet fuel, there is more than enough energy from the office contents to melt the entire floor; obviously, the floor would collapse long before that could happen.
Are you ever going to stop lying?
QUOTE (metamars+)
I see. So the 4.4 lbs. per day of garbage that an American generates, which is equal in heat energy to a whopping 1.1. lbs. per day of coal, is matched by the energy content of the paper, plastic, wood and cloth on those floors.
Listen, numb nutz, I'll try to explain it again.
The loading capacity of the office space in the WTC towers was 100 pounds per square foot. Actual loading was limited by the fire inspectors to 50 pounds per square foot; and in fact, average office space is loaded at just about that rate, according to insurance company statistics.
The towers are 207 feet square, for a total square footage of 42,849 square feet; but about 1/3 of that space is taken up by the core, leaving about 28,566 square feet. The weight of the material on 28,566 square feet at 50 pounds per square foot is 1,428,300 pounds- that's per floor. Of that, I've taken a very conservative 1/3 as burnable material- so 476,100 pounds. Are you with me so far? This is some pretty convoluted arithmetic here; you have to, you know, like, multiply and divide. So far I haven't seen any evidence that you can. You might want to get someone with some rudimentary math skills to look the figures over here.
Now comes the hard part: I've assumed the garbage has about the same composition as the stuff left on the floor after the airplane crashed into it, and justified that assumption. You with me so far? And I've provided a reference that says that the energy content of garbage is about 1/4 the energy content of coal. Like I said, it's about your grade level, but considering the trouble you're having figuring it out, I'd have to say that perhaps I've overestimated your l33t skillz. You keep quoting the wrong figure, something about how much garbage people generate per day or something. Which is why I keep asking whether you were born this dumb or had to practice.
So if we've got 476,100 pounds of stuff, and that stuff is about 1/4 the energy content of coal, then (here's another one of those convoluted, tricky math things) we must have the equivalent of about 119,025 pounds of coal. Again, get someone with some math skills to check that for you. Now, on the other link I provided, you can figure the energy content of that 119,025 pounds of coal, but first you have to do another one of those tricky math things: you have to divide by 2000 to get tons of coal. That gives 59.5125 tons of coal, and according to the extremely difficult to use (for the impaired, like you for instance) calculator, that comes out to 1,303,123.19 megajoules of energy.
Now, a thousand megajoules is a gigajoule, and a million megajoules is a terajoule. So that means that the energy of all that burning paper, wood, plastic, cloth, and human body parts is about 1.303TJ (that TJ is an abbreviation- you ever heard of that? for terajoules). And according to other calculations I did earlier (watch out- more tricky convoluted math stuff here) that's enough energy to melt an entire floor's worth of steel twice over.
And for the completely lame, I'll point out yet again that at no time have I mentioned any jet fuel, nor any kinetic energy, nor anything but the office contents.
This concludes the complete description of your New Clue. Please be careful with it; consult with an authorized fact dealer in your local area for instructions before attempting to use it. It is sharp and you could cut yourself.
The loading capacity of the office space in the WTC towers was 100 pounds per square foot. Actual loading was limited by the fire inspectors to 50 pounds per square foot; and in fact, average office space is loaded at just about that rate, according to insurance company statistics.
The towers are 207 feet square, for a total square footage of 42,849 square feet; but about 1/3 of that space is taken up by the core, leaving about 28,566 square feet. The weight of the material on 28,566 square feet at 50 pounds per square foot is 1,428,300 pounds- that's per floor. Of that, I've taken a very conservative 1/3 as burnable material- so 476,100 pounds. Are you with me so far? This is some pretty convoluted arithmetic here; you have to, you know, like, multiply and divide. So far I haven't seen any evidence that you can. You might want to get someone with some rudimentary math skills to look the figures over here.
Now comes the hard part: I've assumed the garbage has about the same composition as the stuff left on the floor after the airplane crashed into it, and justified that assumption. You with me so far? And I've provided a reference that says that the energy content of garbage is about 1/4 the energy content of coal. Like I said, it's about your grade level, but considering the trouble you're having figuring it out, I'd have to say that perhaps I've overestimated your l33t skillz. You keep quoting the wrong figure, something about how much garbage people generate per day or something. Which is why I keep asking whether you were born this dumb or had to practice.
So if we've got 476,100 pounds of stuff, and that stuff is about 1/4 the energy content of coal, then (here's another one of those convoluted, tricky math things) we must have the equivalent of about 119,025 pounds of coal. Again, get someone with some math skills to check that for you. Now, on the other link I provided, you can figure the energy content of that 119,025 pounds of coal, but first you have to do another one of those tricky math things: you have to divide by 2000 to get tons of coal. That gives 59.5125 tons of coal, and according to the extremely difficult to use (for the impaired, like you for instance) calculator, that comes out to 1,303,123.19 megajoules of energy.
Now, a thousand megajoules is a gigajoule, and a million megajoules is a terajoule. So that means that the energy of all that burning paper, wood, plastic, cloth, and human body parts is about 1.303TJ (that TJ is an abbreviation- you ever heard of that? for terajoules). And according to other calculations I did earlier (watch out- more tricky convoluted math stuff here) that's enough energy to melt an entire floor's worth of steel twice over.
And for the completely lame, I'll point out yet again that at no time have I mentioned any jet fuel, nor any kinetic energy, nor anything but the office contents.
This concludes the complete description of your New Clue. Please be careful with it; consult with an authorized fact dealer in your local area for instructions before attempting to use it. It is sharp and you could cut yourself.
Without entering the debate... it seems to me that Sch...ster is the one emotionally involved; also, arrogant, petulent, childish, (fillin the blank), etc...
You have to be carefull about using "random" adjectives on the physic forum, because those "random" adjective you use might actualy mean something.
convolution is defined as;
convolution is defined as;
Unbelievable!!! (that he is still trying to pass off this nonsense)
We started off with these imaginary numbers regarding jet fuel ...
It has been clearly shown that the above number of 2,625,000,000,000 (2.625TJ) is a gross misrepresentation of the actual fuel available to be burned in the first place. Having had this number debunked. The Schneibster has been back-pedalling for pages how completely unimportant the relevance of the jet fuel is...
It has been clearly shown that the above number of 2,625,000,000,000 (2.625TJ) is a gross misrepresentation of the actual fuel available to be burned in the first place. Having had this number debunked. The Schneibster has been back-pedalling for pages how completely unimportant the relevance of the jet fuel is...
"Actually, being completely uninterested in the amount of jet fuel when I realized how much energy there was in the contents of the floor,"
Ehhh ??? A few pages back you were blabbering how tremendously important this imaginary jet fuel load was and how it added 2,625,000,000,000 J to the 'energy budget' claiming that this alone was "twice the energy available from the kinetic energy of the collapse." As we have all seen, your numbers were clearly wrong on that.
Anyway, having been debunked there, you have quickly tried to shift focus to the energy which you claim is contained within the floor 'garbage'. The numbers you are now claiming are more mathematical wizardy...
Ehhh ??? A few pages back you were blabbering how tremendously important this imaginary jet fuel load was and how it added 2,625,000,000,000 J to the 'energy budget' claiming that this alone was "twice the energy available from the kinetic energy of the collapse." As we have all seen, your numbers were clearly wrong on that.
Anyway, having been debunked there, you have quickly tried to shift focus to the energy which you claim is contained within the floor 'garbage'. The numbers you are now claiming are more mathematical wizardy...
1,303,123.19 megajoules of energy
...contained in the 'garbage' on each floor.
The arrival at this figure comes from assuming that the engineered floor loadings of the building represent the actual weight of contents that the floors contained and were therefore available for burning.
Source: http://www.house.gov/science/hot/wtc/wtc-report/WTC_ch2.pdf
Engineered loadings in structural design are typically based upon 5X the estimated maximum load the structural member is expected to experience (to account for safety margins). What this means is that the floor loadings (which the Schneibster mistakes for actual contents on those floors) are actually normally expected to be in the range of 1/5th their maximum design loadings. In numbers this gives us 100 psf divide by 5 = 20 psf.
Even so, these are all still theoretical numbers, and do not represent the actual weight of contents that each square foot of floor area is supporting ... only the design loadings they are capable of supporting.
Think about the actual numbers that you are tossing about here, Schneibster. You are claiming that (based upon your erroneous initial assumptions) that each floor contained 238 tons of burnables.
238 Tons !!! of office furnishings and paper.
That is the equivalent to the weight of approximately 70 full sized Chev Suburban SUV's packed onto one floor. Just think about that for a minute. What volume of paper and office furnishings would it take to counterbalance just one Chev SUV which has a weight of approximately 7000 lbs. It is absolutely preposterous to think that these floors were loaded to their maximum design load (or even to a fifth of that theoretical limit) with office contents.
Sure your calculations all work out mathematically... there is nothing wrong with your calculator.
There is a misinformed operator of that calculator who is plugging in erroneous numbers to begin with, exactly the same as you did with your jet fuel calculations.
Typical cop-out when one gets debunked.
There is nothing wrong with your calculator, Schneibster. Each of your mathematical summations work perfectly, and I didn't see any mathematical errors in your sequential calculations. However...
As I said, the only problem is that in each of your mathematical exercises, you failed to take into account certain facts, and based your figures on erroneous assumptions to begin with. If you start out with a false number, you will end up with a false conclusion.
Like you said, it's all there in black & white for anyone to read.
The massive inputs of energy which you claimed (secondarily) from burning office contents were based upon your misunderstanding of engineered floor loadings, which you foolishly interpreted to mean actual contents on each floor. That is not my mistake, it's yours. Although you are wrong, I did not accuse you of being a liar, just uninformed. Now you respond to the actual truth regarding your 'magical mystery numbers' by calling me a 'Liar'. Look it up. Any structural engineer will confirm for you that I have spoken the true facts regarding floor loadings.I don't know how many structural engineers there may be here, but you most certainly aren't one.
Typical cop-out when one gets debunked.
There is nothing wrong with your calculator, Schneibster. Each of your mathematical summations work perfectly, and I didn't see any mathematical errors in your sequential calculations. However...
As I said, the only problem is that in each of your mathematical exercises, you failed to take into account certain facts, and based your figures on erroneous assumptions to begin with. If you start out with a false number, you will end up with a false conclusion.
Like you said, it's all there in black & white for anyone to read.
The massive inputs of energy which you claimed (secondarily) from burning office contents were based upon your misunderstanding of engineered floor loadings, which you foolishly interpreted to mean actual contents on each floor. That is not my mistake, it's yours. Although you are wrong, I did not accuse you of being a liar, just uninformed. Now you respond to the actual truth regarding your 'magical mystery numbers' by calling me a 'Liar'. Look it up. Any structural engineer will confirm for you that I have spoken the true facts regarding floor loadings.I don't know how many structural engineers there may be here, but you most certainly aren't one.
"One aspect of engineering that is not widely understood is that structures are over-engineered as a matter of standard practice. Steel structures like bridges and buildings are typically designed to withstand five times anticipated static loads and 3 times anticipated dynamic loads.
The anticipated loads are the largest ones expected during the life of the structure, like the worst hurricane or earthquake occurring while the floors are packed with standing-room-only crowds.
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/design.html
The figures you came up with for fuel input from (office 'garbage') were based upon the largest loads one could expect the floors to endure like "the worst hurricane or earthquake occurring while the floors are packed with standing-room-only crowds". Such conditions did not exist on Sept 11, 2001 (at least not to the best of MY recollection).
Your 'figures' are total bunk, and any unbiased person with even rudimentary science skills can easily recognize it.
Dismissed, grasshopper.
We started off with these imaginary numbers regarding jet fuel ...
QUOTE
[i]Originally posted by Schneidster[i]
How about the fuel? The 767-223 was carrying some 75,000l of fuel. This has an energy content of about 35MJ/l, giving it a total energy content of 2,625,000,000,000J, or 2.625TJ. This is 730,000kWh. Almost all of this vast supply of energy was dumped inside the building...The energy involved in the jet fuel was nearly twice the energy available from the kinetic energy of the collapse.
How about the fuel? The 767-223 was carrying some 75,000l of fuel. This has an energy content of about 35MJ/l, giving it a total energy content of 2,625,000,000,000J, or 2.625TJ. This is 730,000kWh. Almost all of this vast supply of energy was dumped inside the building...The energy involved in the jet fuel was nearly twice the energy available from the kinetic energy of the collapse.
It has been clearly shown that the above number of 2,625,000,000,000 (2.625TJ) is a gross misrepresentation of the actual fuel available to be burned in the first place. Having had this number debunked. The Schneibster has been back-pedalling for pages how completely unimportant the relevance of the jet fuel is...
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| [i]Originally posted by Schneidster[i] How about the fuel? The 767-223 was carrying some 75,000l of fuel. This has an energy content of about 35MJ/l, giving it a total energy content of 2,625,000,000,000J, or 2.625TJ. This is 730,000kWh. Almost all of this vast supply of energy was dumped inside the building...The energy involved in the jet fuel was nearly twice the energy available from the kinetic energy of the collapse. |
It has been clearly shown that the above number of 2,625,000,000,000 (2.625TJ) is a gross misrepresentation of the actual fuel available to be burned in the first place. Having had this number debunked. The Schneibster has been back-pedalling for pages how completely unimportant the relevance of the jet fuel is...
"Actually, being completely uninterested in the amount of jet fuel when I realized how much energy there was in the contents of the floor,"
QUOTE
"And for the completely lame, I'll point out yet again that at no time have I mentioned any jet fuel, nor any kinetic energy, nor anything but the office contents.
Ehhh ??? A few pages back you were blabbering how tremendously important this imaginary jet fuel load was and how it added 2,625,000,000,000 J to the 'energy budget' claiming that this alone was "twice the energy available from the kinetic energy of the collapse." As we have all seen, your numbers were clearly wrong on that.
Anyway, having been debunked there, you have quickly tried to shift focus to the energy which you claim is contained within the floor 'garbage'. The numbers you are now claiming are more mathematical wizardy...
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| "And for the completely lame, I'll point out yet again that at no time have I mentioned any jet fuel, nor any kinetic energy, nor anything but the office contents. |
Ehhh ??? A few pages back you were blabbering how tremendously important this imaginary jet fuel load was and how it added 2,625,000,000,000 J to the 'energy budget' claiming that this alone was "twice the energy available from the kinetic energy of the collapse." As we have all seen, your numbers were clearly wrong on that.
Anyway, having been debunked there, you have quickly tried to shift focus to the energy which you claim is contained within the floor 'garbage'. The numbers you are now claiming are more mathematical wizardy...
1,303,123.19 megajoules of energy
...contained in the 'garbage' on each floor.
The arrival at this figure comes from assuming that the engineered floor loadings of the building represent the actual weight of contents that the floors contained and were therefore available for burning.
QUOTE
"Floors were designed for a uniform live load of 100 pounds per square foot (psf) over any 200-square-foor area with allowable live load reductions taken over larger areas."
Source: http://www.house.gov/science/hot/wtc/wtc-report/WTC_ch2.pdf
Engineered loadings in structural design are typically based upon 5X the estimated maximum load the structural member is expected to experience (to account for safety margins). What this means is that the floor loadings (which the Schneibster mistakes for actual contents on those floors) are actually normally expected to be in the range of 1/5th their maximum design loadings. In numbers this gives us 100 psf divide by 5 = 20 psf.
Even so, these are all still theoretical numbers, and do not represent the actual weight of contents that each square foot of floor area is supporting ... only the design loadings they are capable of supporting.
Think about the actual numbers that you are tossing about here, Schneibster. You are claiming that (based upon your erroneous initial assumptions) that each floor contained 238 tons of burnables.
238 Tons !!! of office furnishings and paper.
That is the equivalent to the weight of approximately 70 full sized Chev Suburban SUV's packed onto one floor. Just think about that for a minute. What volume of paper and office furnishings would it take to counterbalance just one Chev SUV which has a weight of approximately 7000 lbs. It is absolutely preposterous to think that these floors were loaded to their maximum design load (or even to a fifth of that theoretical limit) with office contents.
Sure your calculations all work out mathematically... there is nothing wrong with your calculator.
There is a misinformed operator of that calculator who is plugging in erroneous numbers to begin with, exactly the same as you did with your jet fuel calculations.
Foxx, I'm not even going to bother. You're not worth it. You lie, and that's all I need to say. It's all there in black and white, and anyone is welcome to read it. Good bye.
[SIZE=1] hey schneibster! why you wastin time and smarts on f***wits for man? aint you figured out that those basic-phys and prove-collapse threads are REALLY just conspiracy-theories threads? they aint intersted in no physics man, just more idiocy from other conspiracy theorists man...report them to the bosses and have em moved to conspiracy theory forum or even wiped complete from physics site...hooo man what a chuckle these knucklehead redneck wouldbeanarchists give me on a slow day...they'r a riot schneibster! just leave the threads to snap under the dead weight of stupidity hangin off of it from word one. admire you'r smarts and persistence though, buddy...but take advice from chuckles, use it where it makes a differnce hey? leave em to rot is my motto! peeuu....the smell of ignorance is sicklysweet an all over these conspiracy threads. bye all, and keep away from these nutjobs on steroids................[SIZE=1]
QUOTE
Foxx, I'm not even going to bother. You're not worth it. You lie, and that's all I need to say. It's all there in black and white, and anyone is welcome to read it. Good bye.
Typical cop-out when one gets debunked.
There is nothing wrong with your calculator, Schneibster. Each of your mathematical summations work perfectly, and I didn't see any mathematical errors in your sequential calculations. However...
As I said, the only problem is that in each of your mathematical exercises, you failed to take into account certain facts, and based your figures on erroneous assumptions to begin with. If you start out with a false number, you will end up with a false conclusion.
Like you said, it's all there in black & white for anyone to read.
The massive inputs of energy which you claimed (secondarily) from burning office contents were based upon your misunderstanding of engineered floor loadings, which you foolishly interpreted to mean actual contents on each floor. That is not my mistake, it's yours. Although you are wrong, I did not accuse you of being a liar, just uninformed. Now you respond to the actual truth regarding your 'magical mystery numbers' by calling me a 'Liar'. Look it up. Any structural engineer will confirm for you that I have spoken the true facts regarding floor loadings.I don't know how many structural engineers there may be here, but you most certainly aren't one.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Foxx, I'm not even going to bother. You're not worth it. You lie, and that's all I need to say. It's all there in black and white, and anyone is welcome to read it. Good bye. |
Typical cop-out when one gets debunked.
There is nothing wrong with your calculator, Schneibster. Each of your mathematical summations work perfectly, and I didn't see any mathematical errors in your sequential calculations. However...
As I said, the only problem is that in each of your mathematical exercises, you failed to take into account certain facts, and based your figures on erroneous assumptions to begin with. If you start out with a false number, you will end up with a false conclusion.
Like you said, it's all there in black & white for anyone to read.
The massive inputs of energy which you claimed (secondarily) from burning office contents were based upon your misunderstanding of engineered floor loadings, which you foolishly interpreted to mean actual contents on each floor. That is not my mistake, it's yours. Although you are wrong, I did not accuse you of being a liar, just uninformed. Now you respond to the actual truth regarding your 'magical mystery numbers' by calling me a 'Liar'. Look it up. Any structural engineer will confirm for you that I have spoken the true facts regarding floor loadings.I don't know how many structural engineers there may be here, but you most certainly aren't one.
"One aspect of engineering that is not widely understood is that structures are over-engineered as a matter of standard practice. Steel structures like bridges and buildings are typically designed to withstand five times anticipated static loads and 3 times anticipated dynamic loads.
The anticipated loads are the largest ones expected during the life of the structure, like the worst hurricane or earthquake occurring while the floors are packed with standing-room-only crowds.
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/design.html
The figures you came up with for fuel input from (office 'garbage') were based upon the largest loads one could expect the floors to endure like "the worst hurricane or earthquake occurring while the floors are packed with standing-room-only crowds". Such conditions did not exist on Sept 11, 2001 (at least not to the best of MY recollection).
Your 'figures' are total bunk, and any unbiased person with even rudimentary science skills can easily recognize it.
Dismissed, grasshopper.
QUOTE (Foxx+)
Typical cop-out when one gets debunked.
There's no point in arguing with someone who lies. They're all pointed out, one by one, above, and you have no response to a single one of them. If you did, you'd have made it. Instead, you attempt to deflect attention from your lies; but there they are, and they aren't going away. If you want to be honest, then do so; and I will ponder whether it's worth my time to continue. If you're going to continue to lie, I see no point, and nothing you have said makes me think you have either the personal integrity or the courage to admit it and move on, so I don't expect that I'll need to post anything on this thread again.
Earlier we were discussing the Bhazant-Zhou theory, which was proposed 2 days after 9/11 to explain the 'collapses'. (that was a good analysis, you did metamars on that theory)
Here is how they graphically portrayed this novel phenomena which has now become known as Global Disproportionate Progressive Collapse...
(1) Impact + Structural Damage + Fire...
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/figure1a.gif
...the 'actions' of plane impacts, jet fuel fireballs, and ensuing fires are represented by the red 'action-symbols'.
leads to...(2) Weakening...
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/figure1b.gif
...the 'buckling' of the column (initiation of collapse) is represented. NIST stops here and says... and then total collapse ensued... (or in other words) the 'Buildings Just Fell Down' .
(3) the Plunger is ready...
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/figure1ca.gif
where ALL supports ...
all perimeter columns on all four sides of the building have 'disappeared'... (in other words... have completely lost all structural integrity) and the majority of the central core column structure has also been completely compromised.
This then, sets the stage for the catastrophic failure ('disappearance') of the remaining core columns, and the entire load of the top section falls to the lower section thereby exerting massive dynamic loads upon that section...
(4) Initiation of Collapse...
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/figure1d.gif
Now after almost instantaneously overwhelming all the structural support in that section, the top continues to exert this dynamic force (load) on the next 'floor', and it falls through that section to land on the next...
By the time we get to Fig 4, we see ~~~ symbols ~~~ representing the actions happening at the next lowest stage of the building.
As the upper section of building 'pancakes' down onto the underlying undamaged section, the wavy line symbols represent forces occuring in that level that are at least equal to the damages which have already occured in the previously 'collapsed' area. By Fig 5 we see that this is (in theory) a repeating process which continues floor by floor all the way down to the ground.
This 'process' continues down through the building at near the rate of free-fall, right down to the foundations, even though the sound and undamaged lower 2/3 of the building grows progressively stronger and more massive as it reaches lower to the foundations. As can be seen in the illustrations above (taken directly from the Bazant-Zhou theory page... the lighter top section is acting as a battering ram plunging its way through much more massive structures.
(5) Pancaking...

Here's another way to look at it showing the tension / torsion on the columns as they buckle, bend, and 'melt'
...
(a) http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/figure4a.gif
(
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/figure4b.gif
© http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/figure4c.gif
(d) http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/figure4d.gif
(e) http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/figure4e.gif
Fig (e) is interesting. According to Bhazant-Zhou this shows the top mass of the building falling as a 'solid structure' smashing its way through the other solid structure below.
Here is a series of photos taken from a video of the 'collapse'. The pictures at the left have the top section of building outlined in red to better understand the quick sketch schematic diagram Bhazant-Zhou show in Fig (e) above.
http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/guardi...intergrates.jpg
Bazant-Zhou claim...
: "The main purpose of the present analysis is to prove that the whole tower must have collapsed if the fire destroyed the load capacity of the majority of columns of a single floor. ...
An important hypothesis implied in this analysis is that the impacting upper part, many floors in height, is so stiff that it does not bend nor shear on vertical planes, and that the distribution of column displacements across the tower is almost linear, like for a rigid body.
If, however, the upper part spanned only a few floors (say, 3 to 6), then it could be so flexible that different column groups of the upper part could move down separately at different times, producing a series of small impacts that would not be fatal (in theory, if people could have escaped from the upper part of the tower, the bottom part of the tower could have been saved if the upper part were bombed, exploded or weakened by some "smart" structure mechanism to collapse onto the lower part gradually as a pile of rubble, instead of impacting it instantly as an almost rigid body)."
Bazant-Zhou speculate that IF the top portion collapsed into 'separate pieces' prior to impacting the lower section, then those 'pieces' collapsing onto the lower section would NOT prove stucturally 'fatal' to the lower portion... i.e. would NOT collapse the lower portion of the building to the ground.
In other words, ONLY IF the top section fell as 'one-piece' the height of one 'floor' - ( 12' ), could the top-section impart sufficient dynamic energy to theoretically 'progressively collapse' the lower undamaged section of building, according to their theory.
We know that in fact the upper section did not fall as "an almost rigid body", but was breaking into pieces from the impact zones up, prior to the collapse of the lower section.
This is a picture of a break about halfway between the impact zone at the top of the building (south tower WTC 2)...

Here is a video in slow motion of what was taking place in this area... a close-up view which shows this area breaking up...
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/wtc_corner_slow.wmv
This supports the fact that the building did indeed "collapse onto the lower part gradually as a pile of rubble".
Bazant-Zhou speculate that IF the top portion collapsed into 'separate pieces' prior to impacting the lower section, then those 'pieces' collapsing onto the lower section would NOT prove stucturally 'fatal' to the lower portion... i.e. would NOT collapse the lower portion of the building to the ground.
In other words, ONLY IF the top section fell as 'one-piece' the height of one 'floor' - ( 12' ), could the top-section impart sufficient dynamic energy to theoretically 'progressively collapse' the lower undamaged section of building, according to their theory.
We know that in fact the upper section did not fall as "an almost rigid body", but was breaking into pieces from the impact zones up, prior to the collapse of the lower section.
This is a picture of a break about halfway between the impact zone at the top of the building (south tower WTC 2)...

Here is a video in slow motion of what was taking place in this area... a close-up view which shows this area breaking up...
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/wtc_corner_slow.wmv
This supports the fact that the building did indeed "collapse onto the lower part gradually as a pile of rubble".
From Bazant-Zhou
The main purpose of the present analysis is to prove that the whole tower must have collapsed if the fire destroyed the load capacity of the majority of columns of a single floor.
Did the fires destroy the load capacity of the majority of the columns 'of a single floor' ?
NOT according to NIST.
Structural Damage
NIST tells us that out of 47 of the massive central core columns in the impact area (Floor 96 - WTC 1) ONLY 6 of these columns were either severed or heavily damaged, and an additional 6 were 'slightly damaged'. Here is how NIST characterizes 'damage levels'...
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/column_damage02.jpg
It is obvious that the load capacity of the 'slightly damaged' columns was not destroyed. That leaves us with 6 (out of 47) columns whose load-bearing capacity were 'destroyed' in the structural damage caused by the aircraft impact... appoximately 12% of the columns on that level...

12% of the columns is NOT the 'majority' of columns on one level. So, again... the Bazant-Zhou theory cannot be true.
Fire Damage
As I view it, the core columns were under NO 'fire-stress' which could have possibly led to the 'destruction' of the structural integrity of the majority of the columns. As can be seen from this NIST diagram...
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/core_temp02_lg.jpg
Only 4 of the core columns are postulated to have reached temperatures in the range of 700 C. This is the temperature at which steel enters the 'plasticizing' state which can cause buckling... Note also according to NIST's postulations that NONE of the perimeter columns reached such temperatures...
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/core_temp02a.jpg
These heat model images and many more can be found at...
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NISTNCSTAR1Draft.pdf
Here's a reminder picture of the central core and general construction of one of the towers...
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/central_core.jpg
As I see it NIST is refuting the Bazant-Zhou theory
Here is how they graphically portrayed this novel phenomena which has now become known as Global Disproportionate Progressive Collapse...
(1) Impact + Structural Damage + Fire...
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/figure1a.gif
...the 'actions' of plane impacts, jet fuel fireballs, and ensuing fires are represented by the red 'action-symbols'.
leads to...(2) Weakening...
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/figure1b.gif
...the 'buckling' of the column (initiation of collapse) is represented. NIST stops here and says... and then total collapse ensued... (or in other words) the 'Buildings Just Fell Down' .
(3) the Plunger is ready...
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/figure1ca.gif
where ALL supports ...
all perimeter columns on all four sides of the building have 'disappeared'... (in other words... have completely lost all structural integrity) and the majority of the central core column structure has also been completely compromised.
This then, sets the stage for the catastrophic failure ('disappearance') of the remaining core columns, and the entire load of the top section falls to the lower section thereby exerting massive dynamic loads upon that section...
(4) Initiation of Collapse...
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/figure1d.gif
Now after almost instantaneously overwhelming all the structural support in that section, the top continues to exert this dynamic force (load) on the next 'floor', and it falls through that section to land on the next...
By the time we get to Fig 4, we see ~~~ symbols ~~~ representing the actions happening at the next lowest stage of the building.
As the upper section of building 'pancakes' down onto the underlying undamaged section, the wavy line symbols represent forces occuring in that level that are at least equal to the damages which have already occured in the previously 'collapsed' area. By Fig 5 we see that this is (in theory) a repeating process which continues floor by floor all the way down to the ground.
This 'process' continues down through the building at near the rate of free-fall, right down to the foundations, even though the sound and undamaged lower 2/3 of the building grows progressively stronger and more massive as it reaches lower to the foundations. As can be seen in the illustrations above (taken directly from the Bazant-Zhou theory page... the lighter top section is acting as a battering ram plunging its way through much more massive structures.
(5) Pancaking...

Here's another way to look at it showing the tension / torsion on the columns as they buckle, bend, and 'melt'
(a) http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/figure4a.gif
(
© http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/figure4c.gif
(d) http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/figure4d.gif
(e) http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/figure4e.gif
Fig (e) is interesting. According to Bhazant-Zhou this shows the top mass of the building falling as a 'solid structure' smashing its way through the other solid structure below.
Here is a series of photos taken from a video of the 'collapse'. The pictures at the left have the top section of building outlined in red to better understand the quick sketch schematic diagram Bhazant-Zhou show in Fig (e) above.
http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/guardi...intergrates.jpg
Bazant-Zhou claim...
QUOTE
: "The main purpose of the present analysis is to prove that the whole tower must have collapsed if the fire destroyed the load capacity of the majority of columns of a single floor. ...
An important hypothesis implied in this analysis is that the impacting upper part, many floors in height, is so stiff that it does not bend nor shear on vertical planes, and that the distribution of column displacements across the tower is almost linear, like for a rigid body.
If, however, the upper part spanned only a few floors (say, 3 to 6), then it could be so flexible that different column groups of the upper part could move down separately at different times, producing a series of small impacts that would not be fatal (in theory, if people could have escaped from the upper part of the tower, the bottom part of the tower could have been saved if the upper part were bombed, exploded or weakened by some "smart" structure mechanism to collapse onto the lower part gradually as a pile of rubble, instead of impacting it instantly as an almost rigid body)."
Bazant-Zhou speculate that IF the top portion collapsed into 'separate pieces' prior to impacting the lower section, then those 'pieces' collapsing onto the lower section would NOT prove stucturally 'fatal' to the lower portion... i.e. would NOT collapse the lower portion of the building to the ground.
In other words, ONLY IF the top section fell as 'one-piece' the height of one 'floor' - ( 12' ), could the top-section impart sufficient dynamic energy to theoretically 'progressively collapse' the lower undamaged section of building, according to their theory.
We know that in fact the upper section did not fall as "an almost rigid body", but was breaking into pieces from the impact zones up, prior to the collapse of the lower section.
This is a picture of a break about halfway between the impact zone at the top of the building (south tower WTC 2)...

Here is a video in slow motion of what was taking place in this area... a close-up view which shows this area breaking up...
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/wtc_corner_slow.wmv
This supports the fact that the building did indeed "collapse onto the lower part gradually as a pile of rubble".
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
: "The main purpose of the present analysis is to prove that the whole tower must have collapsed if the fire destroyed the load capacity of the majority of columns of a single floor. ... An important hypothesis implied in this analysis is that the impacting upper part, many floors in height, is so stiff that it does not bend nor shear on vertical planes, and that the distribution of column displacements across the tower is almost linear, like for a rigid body. If, however, the upper part spanned only a few floors (say, 3 to 6), then it could be so flexible that different column groups of the upper part could move down separately at different times, producing a series of small impacts that would not be fatal (in theory, if people could have escaped from the upper part of the tower, the bottom part of the tower could have been saved if the upper part were bombed, exploded or weakened by some "smart" structure mechanism to collapse onto the lower part gradually as a pile of rubble, instead of impacting it instantly as an almost rigid body)." |
Bazant-Zhou speculate that IF the top portion collapsed into 'separate pieces' prior to impacting the lower section, then those 'pieces' collapsing onto the lower section would NOT prove stucturally 'fatal' to the lower portion... i.e. would NOT collapse the lower portion of the building to the ground.
In other words, ONLY IF the top section fell as 'one-piece' the height of one 'floor' - ( 12' ), could the top-section impart sufficient dynamic energy to theoretically 'progressively collapse' the lower undamaged section of building, according to their theory.
We know that in fact the upper section did not fall as "an almost rigid body", but was breaking into pieces from the impact zones up, prior to the collapse of the lower section.
This is a picture of a break about halfway between the impact zone at the top of the building (south tower WTC 2)...

Here is a video in slow motion of what was taking place in this area... a close-up view which shows this area breaking up...
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/wtc_corner_slow.wmv
This supports the fact that the building did indeed "collapse onto the lower part gradually as a pile of rubble".
From Bazant-Zhou
The main purpose of the present analysis is to prove that the whole tower must have collapsed if the fire destroyed the load capacity of the majority of columns of a single floor.
Did the fires destroy the load capacity of the majority of the columns 'of a single floor' ?
NOT according to NIST.
Structural Damage
NIST tells us that out of 47 of the massive central core columns in the impact area (Floor 96 - WTC 1) ONLY 6 of these columns were either severed or heavily damaged, and an additional 6 were 'slightly damaged'. Here is how NIST characterizes 'damage levels'...
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/column_damage02.jpg
It is obvious that the load capacity of the 'slightly damaged' columns was not destroyed. That leaves us with 6 (out of 47) columns whose load-bearing capacity were 'destroyed' in the structural damage caused by the aircraft impact... appoximately 12% of the columns on that level...

12% of the columns is NOT the 'majority' of columns on one level. So, again... the Bazant-Zhou theory cannot be true.
Fire Damage
As I view it, the core columns were under NO 'fire-stress' which could have possibly led to the 'destruction' of the structural integrity of the majority of the columns. As can be seen from this NIST diagram...
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/core_temp02_lg.jpg
Only 4 of the core columns are postulated to have reached temperatures in the range of 700 C. This is the temperature at which steel enters the 'plasticizing' state which can cause buckling... Note also according to NIST's postulations that NONE of the perimeter columns reached such temperatures...
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/core_temp02a.jpg
These heat model images and many more can be found at...
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NISTNCSTAR1Draft.pdf
Here's a reminder picture of the central core and general construction of one of the towers...
http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/files/central_core.jpg
As I see it NIST is refuting the Bazant-Zhou theory
Oh, and just so we're clear: you can't bury your lies by starting a new page, either, Foxx. Don't lie. You have nothing here but your rep, and your ability to identify and apply the theories of physics to general physics problems; and your rep is you lie, and you have no understanding of the physics that are supposed to be being discussed on this site.
If anyone wants to read the lies, they are on page 13 of this thread. I'll try to remember to put a copy of this post on each new page of the thread.
If anyone wants to read the lies, they are on page 13 of this thread. I'll try to remember to put a copy of this post on each new page of the thread.
Foxx,
Thanks for your post & the obvious time that you've spent in comparing, contrasting & finding the inconsistencies between the Bhazant-Zhou & the NIST theories.
2 days after the horrific events of 9-11 seemed a rashly premature time to publish a theory on the collapse. Why did these two (Bhazant-Zhou) wish to publish their theory so early?? I notice also that they have never followed up their theory (A simple analysis).
Anyway, I just thought that I would post a link for anyone else who is interested in personally making themselves aware of more of the anomalies of the horrific events of 9-11.
The following link is to another forum where the initial post contains many photographs & URL links to reference articles.
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/forum/thread8820.html The page takes a while to load (with all th photographs) but it serves as a good starting point for anyone on this Physics board who wishes to explore the subject of the 9-11 events further.
This is strictly a Physics board & I think that maybe some people don't like to see subjects other than physics debated here (including personal insults), I don't know - what's the consensus??
So please anyone, have a look at the site & maybe drop a comment here, if you wish.
Thanks,
Sinclair
Thanks for your post & the obvious time that you've spent in comparing, contrasting & finding the inconsistencies between the Bhazant-Zhou & the NIST theories.
2 days after the horrific events of 9-11 seemed a rashly premature time to publish a theory on the collapse. Why did these two (Bhazant-Zhou) wish to publish their theory so early?? I notice also that they have never followed up their theory (A simple analysis).
Anyway, I just thought that I would post a link for anyone else who is interested in personally making themselves aware of more of the anomalies of the horrific events of 9-11.
The following link is to another forum where the initial post contains many photographs & URL links to reference articles.
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/forum/thread8820.html The page takes a while to load (with all th photographs) but it serves as a good starting point for anyone on this Physics board who wishes to explore the subject of the 9-11 events further.
This is strictly a Physics board & I think that maybe some people don't like to see subjects other than physics debated here (including personal insults), I don't know - what's the consensus??
So please anyone, have a look at the site & maybe drop a comment here, if you wish.
Thanks,
Sinclair
Sinclair, thanks for your kind comments and your calm and reasoned approach to what is certainly an emotional issue.
I certainly agree with you that personal insults intermingled with discussions are not helpful in any way to understanding the events of 9/11, nor any other subject.
Physics, of course involves all of us in our daily lives. In one sense it is the science of understanding the universe and its workings explained through mathematical formulas and equations. Many aspects of physics are clearly understood even by some who have only a rudimentary understanding of science. For example, we all know that if you drop a brick from a bridge it will fall towards the earths surface because of gravity.
Andrew Johnson started this thread noting that the 3 World Trade Center buildings (WTC 1, 2 & 7) 'collapsed' at near the speed of free-fall. This physics / engineering phenomena has never before (or since) 9/11 occured in the real world, although many have speculated that such an occurance is theoretically possible; i.e. Bhazant-Zhou were the first to attempt an explaination of this highly unusual phenomena through their simple analysis published 2 days after the events. Of course, the world was a-buzz with talk of these events in the first few days following these terrorist actions, and one expects that there wasn't many people on the planet NOT discussing the tragic events of that day, (usually based upon their own perspectives and life-interests).
I believe that the Bhazant-Zhou theory was a valiant attempt by engineers to explain the highly unusual behaviour of these 3 buildings, (not as a defined explaination), but rather just a simple theory based loosely on the known physics related to structural engineering. As you say, "they have never followed up their theory" or further refined that theory.
I find this quite understandable, given the vast amounts of video and photographic evidence that has been analysed since their initial theory was published. How does one defend a theory which relies upon the dynamic forces of the upper section of building suddenly falling like a rigid body through 12' of thin air in order to build momentum to crush the much more massive structure below, when we know that the very thing that Bazant-Zhou depended upon to support their theory ( that the upper section had to have fallen like a 'rigid body') is not true at all. This has been clearly refuted by analyses which show the destruction of the upper portion of the building, prior to the onset of collapse of the lower portion collapsing "onto the lower part gradually as a pile of rubble, instead of impacting it instantly as an almost rigid body"...
I certainly agree with you that personal insults intermingled with discussions are not helpful in any way to understanding the events of 9/11, nor any other subject.
Physics, of course involves all of us in our daily lives. In one sense it is the science of understanding the universe and its workings explained through mathematical formulas and equations. Many aspects of physics are clearly understood even by some who have only a rudimentary understanding of science. For example, we all know that if you drop a brick from a bridge it will fall towards the earths surface because of gravity.
Andrew Johnson started this thread noting that the 3 World Trade Center buildings (WTC 1, 2 & 7) 'collapsed' at near the speed of free-fall. This physics / engineering phenomena has never before (or since) 9/11 occured in the real world, although many have speculated that such an occurance is theoretically possible; i.e. Bhazant-Zhou were the first to attempt an explaination of this highly unusual phenomena through their simple analysis published 2 days after the events. Of course, the world was a-buzz with talk of these events in the first few days following these terrorist actions, and one expects that there wasn't many people on the planet NOT discussing the tragic events of that day, (usually based upon their own perspectives and life-interests).
I believe that the Bhazant-Zhou theory was a valiant attempt by engineers to explain the highly unusual behaviour of these 3 buildings, (not as a defined explaination), but rather just a simple theory based loosely on the known physics related to structural engineering. As you say, "they have never followed up their theory" or further refined that theory.
I find this quite understandable, given the vast amounts of video and photographic evidence that has been analysed since their initial theory was published. How does one defend a theory which relies upon the dynamic forces of the upper section of building suddenly falling like a rigid body through 12' of thin air in order to build momentum to crush the much more massive structure below, when we know that the very thing that Bazant-Zhou depended upon to support their theory ( that the upper section had to have fallen like a 'rigid body') is not true at all. This has been clearly refuted by analyses which show the destruction of the upper portion of the building, prior to the onset of collapse of the lower portion collapsing "onto the lower part gradually as a pile of rubble, instead of impacting it instantly as an almost rigid body"...
: "The main purpose of the present analysis is to prove that the whole tower must have collapsed if the fire destroyed the load capacity of the majority of columns of a single floor. ...
An important hypothesis implied in this analysis is that the impacting upper part, many floors in height, is so stiff that it does not bend nor shear on vertical planes, and that the distribution of column displacements across the tower is almost linear, like for a rigid body.
If, however, the upper part spanned only a few floors (say, 3 to 6), then it could be so flexible that different column groups of the upper part could move down separately at different times, producing a series of small impacts that would not be fatal (in theory, if people could have escaped from the upper part of the tower, the bottom part of the tower could have been saved if the upper part were bombed, exploded or weakened by some "smart" structure mechanism to collapse onto the lower part gradually as a pile of rubble, instead of impacting it instantly as an almost rigid body)."
http://www.tam.uiuc.edu/news/200109wtc/#footnote1
First, As we know through the NIST report, the majority of the columns on one floor did not fail and just cannot be modeled as science fact, so this alone refutes the Bhazant-Zhou theory, and secondly...
It is clearly evident that the upper portion of building collapsed as a pile of rubble rather than an almost rigid body, which again refutes the Bhazant-Zhou theory.
We are left then, to come up with a more realistic theory as to how such an anomalous engineering phenomena can occur in a universe subject to the laws of physics. FEMA attempted to undertake such a challenge and fell far short. NIST took over and it's mandate was to explain the collapses in a scientifically sound way.
Unfortunately, NIST has completely failed to explain the collapses any better than Bhazant-Zhou or FEMA. In fact, Bhazant-Zhou (even though their simple analysis was wrong)... did a far better job than NIST, because they at least attempted to set forth an explaination of how such a collapse could occur, whereas NIST simply truncates its timeline of the collapse events to those leading up to the Global Disproportionate Progressive Collapse telling us in extended fine detail the things we already knew - plane impacts, jet-fuel fireballs, brief ensuing fires, and then when they get to the climax we have all been waiting to hear...HOW the mechanism of this novel phenomena actually progressed through the entire building from top to bottom at near free-fall rates...They end the story with an unacceptably simple... and THEN
the BUILDINGS-JUST-FELL-DOWN !!!
They have failed their obligations and their mandate. As Jim Hoffman has pointed out so eloquently...
http://www.911research.wtc7.net/essays/nist/index.html
Have a pleasant day, ALL
QUOTE
Originally posted by Sinclair
This is strictly a Physics board & I think that maybe some people don't like to see subjects other than physics debated here (including personal insults), I don't know - what's the consensus??
This is strictly a Physics board & I think that maybe some people don't like to see subjects other than physics debated here (including personal insults), I don't know - what's the consensus??
I certainly agree with you that personal insults intermingled with discussions are not helpful in any way to understanding the events of 9/11, nor any other subject.
Physics, of course involves all of us in our daily lives. In one sense it is the science of understanding the universe and its workings explained through mathematical formulas and equations. Many aspects of physics are clearly understood even by some who have only a rudimentary understanding of science. For example, we all know that if you drop a brick from a bridge it will fall towards the earths surface because of gravity.
Andrew Johnson started this thread noting that the 3 World Trade Center buildings (WTC 1, 2 & 7) 'collapsed' at near the speed of free-fall. This physics / engineering phenomena has never before (or since) 9/11 occured in the real world, although many have speculated that such an occurance is theoretically possible; i.e. Bhazant-Zhou were the first to attempt an explaination of this highly unusual phenomena through their simple analysis published 2 days after the events. Of course, the world was a-buzz with talk of these events in the first few days following these terrorist actions, and one expects that there wasn't many people on the planet NOT discussing the tragic events of that day, (usually based upon their own perspectives and life-interests).
I believe that the Bhazant-Zhou theory was a valiant attempt by engineers to explain the highly unusual behaviour of these 3 buildings, (not as a defined explaination), but rather just a simple theory based loosely on the known physics related to structural engineering. As you say, "they have never followed up their theory" or further refined that theory.
I find this quite understandable, given the vast amounts of video and photographic evidence that has been analysed since their initial theory was published. How does one defend a theory which relies upon the dynamic forces of the upper section of building suddenly falling like a rigid body through 12' of thin air in order to build momentum to crush the much more massive structure below, when we know that the very thing that Bazant-Zhou depended upon to support their theory ( that the upper section had to have fallen like a 'rigid body') is not true at all. This has been clearly refuted by analyses which show the destruction of the upper portion of the building, prior to the onset of collapse of the lower portion collapsing "onto the lower part gradually as a pile of rubble, instead of impacting it instantly as an almost rigid body"...
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Originally posted by Sinclair This is strictly a Physics board & I think that maybe some people don't like to see subjects other than physics debated here (including personal insults), I don't know - what's the consensus?? |
I certainly agree with you that personal insults intermingled with discussions are not helpful in any way to understanding the events of 9/11, nor any other subject.
Physics, of course involves all of us in our daily lives. In one sense it is the science of understanding the universe and its workings explained through mathematical formulas and equations. Many aspects of physics are clearly understood even by some who have only a rudimentary understanding of science. For example, we all know that if you drop a brick from a bridge it will fall towards the earths surface because of gravity.
Andrew Johnson started this thread noting that the 3 World Trade Center buildings (WTC 1, 2 & 7) 'collapsed' at near the speed of free-fall. This physics / engineering phenomena has never before (or since) 9/11 occured in the real world, although many have speculated that such an occurance is theoretically possible; i.e. Bhazant-Zhou were the first to attempt an explaination of this highly unusual phenomena through their simple analysis published 2 days after the events. Of course, the world was a-buzz with talk of these events in the first few days following these terrorist actions, and one expects that there wasn't many people on the planet NOT discussing the tragic events of that day, (usually based upon their own perspectives and life-interests).
I believe that the Bhazant-Zhou theory was a valiant attempt by engineers to explain the highly unusual behaviour of these 3 buildings, (not as a defined explaination), but rather just a simple theory based loosely on the known physics related to structural engineering. As you say, "they have never followed up their theory" or further refined that theory.
I find this quite understandable, given the vast amounts of video and photographic evidence that has been analysed since their initial theory was published. How does one defend a theory which relies upon the dynamic forces of the upper section of building suddenly falling like a rigid body through 12' of thin air in order to build momentum to crush the much more massive structure below, when we know that the very thing that Bazant-Zhou depended upon to support their theory ( that the upper section had to have fallen like a 'rigid body') is not true at all. This has been clearly refuted by analyses which show the destruction of the upper portion of the building, prior to the onset of collapse of the lower portion collapsing "onto the lower part gradually as a pile of rubble, instead of impacting it instantly as an almost rigid body"...
: "The main purpose of the present analysis is to prove that the whole tower must have collapsed if the fire destroyed the load capacity of the majority of columns of a single floor. ...
An important hypothesis implied in this analysis is that the impacting upper part, many floors in height, is so stiff that it does not bend nor shear on vertical planes, and that the distribution of column displacements across the tower is almost linear, like for a rigid body.
If, however, the upper part spanned only a few floors (say, 3 to 6), then it could be so flexible that different column groups of the upper part could move down separately at different times, producing a series of small impacts that would not be fatal (in theory, if people could have escaped from the upper part of the tower, the bottom part of the tower could have been saved if the upper part were bombed, exploded or weakened by some "smart" structure mechanism to collapse onto the lower part gradually as a pile of rubble, instead of impacting it instantly as an almost rigid body)."
http://www.tam.uiuc.edu/news/200109wtc/#footnote1
First, As we know through the NIST report, the majority of the columns on one floor did not fail and just cannot be modeled as science fact, so this alone refutes the Bhazant-Zhou theory, and secondly...
It is clearly evident that the upper portion of building collapsed as a pile of rubble rather than an almost rigid body, which again refutes the Bhazant-Zhou theory.
We are left then, to come up with a more realistic theory as to how such an anomalous engineering phenomena can occur in a universe subject to the laws of physics. FEMA attempted to undertake such a challenge and fell far short. NIST took over and it's mandate was to explain the collapses in a scientifically sound way.
Unfortunately, NIST has completely failed to explain the collapses any better than Bhazant-Zhou or FEMA. In fact, Bhazant-Zhou (even though their simple analysis was wrong)... did a far better job than NIST, because they at least attempted to set forth an explaination of how such a collapse could occur, whereas NIST simply truncates its timeline of the collapse events to those leading up to the Global Disproportionate Progressive Collapse telling us in extended fine detail the things we already knew - plane impacts, jet-fuel fireballs, brief ensuing fires, and then when they get to the climax we have all been waiting to hear...HOW the mechanism of this novel phenomena actually progressed through the entire building from top to bottom at near free-fall rates...They end the story with an unacceptably simple... and THEN
the BUILDINGS-JUST-FELL-DOWN !!!
They have failed their obligations and their mandate. As Jim Hoffman has pointed out so eloquently...
QUOTE
"
NIST's investigation is often cited as proving the official theory that the plane crashes and fires caused the collapses. Yet the Report makes no attempt to explain how the buildings totally collapsed, despite the lack of a single historical precedent for a steel-framed skyscraper totally collapsing for any reason other than controlled demolition. And, in contrast to the Report's voluminous detail about the plane crashes, fires, and loss of life, it makes no attempt to characterize -- let alone explain -- the demolition-like features of the collapses, such as their explosiveness and nearly free-fall rapidity.
NIST simply avoids these troublesome issues by placing them outside the scope of its investigation, claiming that "global collapse" was "inevitable" after the "initiation of collapse."
NIST's investigation is often cited as proving the official theory that the plane crashes and fires caused the collapses. Yet the Report makes no attempt to explain how the buildings totally collapsed, despite the lack of a single historical precedent for a steel-framed skyscraper totally collapsing for any reason other than controlled demolition. And, in contrast to the Report's voluminous detail about the plane crashes, fires, and loss of life, it makes no attempt to characterize -- let alone explain -- the demolition-like features of the collapses, such as their explosiveness and nearly free-fall rapidity.
NIST simply avoids these troublesome issues by placing them outside the scope of its investigation, claiming that "global collapse" was "inevitable" after the "initiation of collapse."
http://www.911research.wtc7.net/essays/nist/index.html
Have a pleasant day, ALL
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