Five hundred submissions from the public of Australia refusing the creation of human clones for research has led to its band.The submission was received by the Lockhart Legislation Review Committee, an independent committee reviewing laws on cloning and stem cell research.
It is currently illegal to clone human embryos for reproductive or therapeutic purposes in Australia, but many scientists hope the Lockhart review will lift the ban on therapeutic cloning since according to them, it will allow them to create embryos through somatic cell nuclear transfer (SCNT) to study developmental biology, genetic diseases and to improve artificial reproductive technologies.
The submissions show a deep chasm between the general public and the scientific community, with public opinion overwhelmingly against Therapeutic cloning. Meanwhile, some submissions express "fear" and "disgust" at the concept of cloning, often invoking Nazi Germany, scenes from science fiction movies, and God.
Full story... (ABC)
I think all of those austrailians are paxcrackres
I am against human cloning because of complexity theory.
Because Science, specificly Mathmatics, is not good enough.
Otherwise I am for it, but not yet.
But, I figure its allready been done in priv. so its really a mote point.
Cloning is here.
Because Science, specificly Mathmatics, is not good enough.
Otherwise I am for it, but not yet.
But, I figure its allready been done in priv. so its really a mote point.
Cloning is here.
Any country outlaw clone is going to be lagged behind.
It's the closest way to relative immortality.
money gets anything done.
It's the closest way to relative immortality.
money gets anything done.
Ya, I think elites have been cloning in secret for years and in public come out against it to avoid the culture war over immortality.
Call me unconventional, but I believe some form of higher intelligence is involved the environment we live in. Seems there is so much order in the universe, its unlikely it just came about by chance.
Religions talk about humans having a soul, maybe we don't believe it because we can't see it. There's a lot of things we can't see, like entire galaxies that only show up in x-ray photos. Didn't they exist before we could see them? Maybe we don't believe in a soul because we can't photograph it... yet. I wonder if high level spiritual practitioners can see the human soul through some other means, maybe that is why religions mention it.
What I'm really wondering is, if the human soul does really exists, would a higher intelligence put a soul into a person cloned by us humans? If not, would that clone be human or something else?
Religions talk about humans having a soul, maybe we don't believe it because we can't see it. There's a lot of things we can't see, like entire galaxies that only show up in x-ray photos. Didn't they exist before we could see them? Maybe we don't believe in a soul because we can't photograph it... yet. I wonder if high level spiritual practitioners can see the human soul through some other means, maybe that is why religions mention it.
What I'm really wondering is, if the human soul does really exists, would a higher intelligence put a soul into a person cloned by us humans? If not, would that clone be human or something else?
Jason thats a dumb question, and a very common one. A clone develops and grows just like any other human, except it wasnt conceived by regular fertilization. But its still made of human cells just like all of us, and if we do have a soul when do we get it? At the very moment of fertilization? Or sometime during growth? And while we are alive, our soul is supposedly attached to our body, so does it split itself when you remove a few cells from someone? If not then how would our children get souls? And if it does clones have souls too.
I saw the movie "The Island", and I would like a clone "insurance policy" for myself. I know they would be expensive, but so is life. As far as intelligent design goes, survival of the fittest goes a long way towards supporting the thoery of evolution.
"All those Australians".... 500 hardly counts as the entire country. I don't know what bunch of conservative bible-thumping Luddites made these submissions, but I can assure you, the majority of people I know are in favour of therapeutic cloning (at the least.) Oh yes, I am an Aussie. 
You never hear of the 5000 that actively supported it do you. It only takes a few people to stuff it up for everyone else.
I'm also an Aussie, and I support therapeutic cloning for research provided ts regulated and the embryos created are not allowed to mature beyond a certain age.
I suppose that is really the debate, the same debate that has been going on for ages. At what point do you consider it human, sentient or capable of feeling pain?
The 500 that stuffed it up for the rest of us were probably thinking of clones like in the movie "The Island".
I'm also an Aussie, and I support therapeutic cloning for research provided ts regulated and the embryos created are not allowed to mature beyond a certain age.
I suppose that is really the debate, the same debate that has been going on for ages. At what point do you consider it human, sentient or capable of feeling pain?
The 500 that stuffed it up for the rest of us were probably thinking of clones like in the movie "The Island".
i agree (also Aussie)
its a worthy cause thats all there is to it.
its a worthy cause thats all there is to it.
and exactly how does one achieve immortality through cloning? as far as i know, we still don't know how to transfer concsiousness from one brain to another. and furthermore would it be ethical to do so with a pre-existing unique personality being created. who is more worthy of survival? from what i can tell if you are cloned from a human you are still human and should be afforded the same rights. who decides?
Quick Howto: Immortality thru cloning.
Dependences: Billions of Dollars.
First, clone yourself ( can be a cheep Chuba city job even )
Second, hire someone to carry it to term.
Third, give it a pre-frontal lobotomy and place it in a forced comma.
Fourth, wait until it is old enough and use it for organ transplants.
Fifth, graft stemcells onto the top of the brain to keep it fresh.
( again using a prebe clone )
Sixth, hope u don't get caught.
Seventh, Rinse and Repeat.
Dependences: Billions of Dollars.
First, clone yourself ( can be a cheep Chuba city job even )
Second, hire someone to carry it to term.
Third, give it a pre-frontal lobotomy and place it in a forced comma.
Fourth, wait until it is old enough and use it for organ transplants.
Fifth, graft stemcells onto the top of the brain to keep it fresh.
( again using a prebe clone )
Sixth, hope u don't get caught.
Seventh, Rinse and Repeat.
Hi All,
First... I think "real" cloning is far too dangerous for any attempt to clone a complete living human being... for now. That being said I will say these things..
1. Natural human clones already occur and they are called "identical" twins. Should we put all the "second born" down because they are "clones"? Same principle folks.
1. Those people submitting to this "inquisition"... I'm Australian and nobody asked me!
2. 500 Submissions is only one well organized church full of "parishioners", hardly counts. I had no idea this was underway and I also had no idea that they were accepting submissions from the "uninformed" public. Naturally politically active groups (and there are plenty) will get a bigger say than others in the community.
3, There is a very well organized religious fraternity in Australia that is "agin" it who exercise significant political influence..
4. People remove limbs and other organs from their body why are they "different" from the rest of a human? Have they "lost their soul". We all know of groups who will not accept blood transfusions so they will be "agin" this as well. These people will allow their loved ones to die because they say that blood transfusions is "eating" the flesh of others.... Hmmm... so that is what I have been doing all these years, providing a "blood cocktail" for a pack of cannibals. They also contain my genetic code as well I could be cloned from that material but I prefer that it be used to save lives. It is the "principle" folks.
5. I have heard nobody complain about the deaths of millions of people in the World through starvation and war. The mass murdering of whole populations with machetes, the west is silent. Blowing up women and children who are already have lives and relationships with others. "Civilized" people such as "Americans" and "Australians" are willing to bomb other nations into submission with "smart weapons" - clinical death dealt at supersonic speed. Now we come to the question of a few living cells in a petri dish... tell me what the comparison is please. If they are "my" cells and they will do some good... then this is acceptable to me. I am prepared to "sacrifice" a small part of my "soul" to save a life. Whatever it takes. Some people sacrifice their whole lives for others. This gives meaning to life not detracts from it. I donate blood and submit to tissue typing for bone marrow transplant because I want to help. I do not need to ask a minister for his opinion... I have made mine up by myself. That is all I would want is personal choice... to save or not to save.
6. I have never seen such gobbledygook and claptrap in the name of "decency" even on this thread. I fear for the general sanity of our species.
A lot of speculation about potential life but no sanctity for existing life. The new Australian Anglican Prelate was railing today about "unbridled Scientific Advancement", nothing about deliberate slaughter in many wars ... that's OK folks.
If cloning technology can be used in a "humane" way to preserve life of someone who is suffering I would vote for it. I can remember only too well the images of that poor woman that ended up at the mercy of the American Legal System who was then starved to death (by the court). Don't speak to me of life... you all have no idea. People can die on your doorstep from neglect but if it "offends" your sensitivity... this is the most important thing in the universe. People are more worried about "symbols" than real human lives.
Poor people die for lack of simple medication around the world but if a rich child needs the beating heart of a third world child it can be bought and transferred for a price in a number of places around the world. Your "chic culture" chain 10 year olds to a table to make your "sports shoes" which sell for hundreds of dollars. When the factory accidentally "burns" they all die with it. For thousands of years nobody cared about dying people ... it was God's will. Now that we can save people this is not God's will. Go figure?
Cheers
First... I think "real" cloning is far too dangerous for any attempt to clone a complete living human being... for now. That being said I will say these things..
1. Natural human clones already occur and they are called "identical" twins. Should we put all the "second born" down because they are "clones"? Same principle folks.
1. Those people submitting to this "inquisition"... I'm Australian and nobody asked me!
2. 500 Submissions is only one well organized church full of "parishioners", hardly counts. I had no idea this was underway and I also had no idea that they were accepting submissions from the "uninformed" public. Naturally politically active groups (and there are plenty) will get a bigger say than others in the community.
3, There is a very well organized religious fraternity in Australia that is "agin" it who exercise significant political influence..
4. People remove limbs and other organs from their body why are they "different" from the rest of a human? Have they "lost their soul". We all know of groups who will not accept blood transfusions so they will be "agin" this as well. These people will allow their loved ones to die because they say that blood transfusions is "eating" the flesh of others.... Hmmm... so that is what I have been doing all these years, providing a "blood cocktail" for a pack of cannibals. They also contain my genetic code as well I could be cloned from that material but I prefer that it be used to save lives. It is the "principle" folks.
5. I have heard nobody complain about the deaths of millions of people in the World through starvation and war. The mass murdering of whole populations with machetes, the west is silent. Blowing up women and children who are already have lives and relationships with others. "Civilized" people such as "Americans" and "Australians" are willing to bomb other nations into submission with "smart weapons" - clinical death dealt at supersonic speed. Now we come to the question of a few living cells in a petri dish... tell me what the comparison is please. If they are "my" cells and they will do some good... then this is acceptable to me. I am prepared to "sacrifice" a small part of my "soul" to save a life. Whatever it takes. Some people sacrifice their whole lives for others. This gives meaning to life not detracts from it. I donate blood and submit to tissue typing for bone marrow transplant because I want to help. I do not need to ask a minister for his opinion... I have made mine up by myself. That is all I would want is personal choice... to save or not to save.
6. I have never seen such gobbledygook and claptrap in the name of "decency" even on this thread. I fear for the general sanity of our species.
A lot of speculation about potential life but no sanctity for existing life. The new Australian Anglican Prelate was railing today about "unbridled Scientific Advancement", nothing about deliberate slaughter in many wars ... that's OK folks.
If cloning technology can be used in a "humane" way to preserve life of someone who is suffering I would vote for it. I can remember only too well the images of that poor woman that ended up at the mercy of the American Legal System who was then starved to death (by the court). Don't speak to me of life... you all have no idea. People can die on your doorstep from neglect but if it "offends" your sensitivity... this is the most important thing in the universe. People are more worried about "symbols" than real human lives.
Poor people die for lack of simple medication around the world but if a rich child needs the beating heart of a third world child it can be bought and transferred for a price in a number of places around the world. Your "chic culture" chain 10 year olds to a table to make your "sports shoes" which sell for hundreds of dollars. When the factory accidentally "burns" they all die with it. For thousands of years nobody cared about dying people ... it was God's will. Now that we can save people this is not God's will. Go figure?
Cheers
G'day Good Elf and everyone.
Hear! Hear! Good Elf!
Well put! Wholeheartedly agree! Good onya, mate!
RealityCheck.
Hear! Hear! Good Elf!
Well put! Wholeheartedly agree! Good onya, mate!
RealityCheck.
Well said Good Elf 
It's good to see rational thought such as yours in these posts. Your statements highlight the fact that there is far too much pain, despair, and hypocrisy in this world. I give a moment of silence each morning to reflect on the realities you've mentioned. We live in a place where there is already enough misfortune. If cells are the answer, so be it. There are plenty of sources to obtain them whatever ones outlook on the "morality" of it all. A soul, if it exists, would doubtlessly not be confined in its existence through a symbiotic relationship with a specific organic mass on a specific planet in some random remote corner of our vast universe anyway. If it is, is it really what we thought it was to begin with?
Also, could someone please explain "agin"? I saw a couple of references to this in the thread. It's not a term I'm familiar with.
It's good to see rational thought such as yours in these posts. Your statements highlight the fact that there is far too much pain, despair, and hypocrisy in this world. I give a moment of silence each morning to reflect on the realities you've mentioned. We live in a place where there is already enough misfortune. If cells are the answer, so be it. There are plenty of sources to obtain them whatever ones outlook on the "morality" of it all. A soul, if it exists, would doubtlessly not be confined in its existence through a symbiotic relationship with a specific organic mass on a specific planet in some random remote corner of our vast universe anyway. If it is, is it really what we thought it was to begin with?Also, could someone please explain "agin"? I saw a couple of references to this in the thread. It's not a term I'm familiar with.
I think the 'soul' would occupy both bodies in the same way two TVs tuned to the same channel show the same picture.
So what is the difference?
The viewer(s).
So what is the difference?
The viewer(s).
first of all cloning is bad!! duh! it insults human life! i mean u r going to take a human life and just waste it on cloning and that human life had no say! i mean i've learned in school that science has limits and i think science is going way to far with this! i mean come on give it a break! ok gosh today there is no respect for human life once so ever.
like abortion and like live abortion! DO U KNOW WHAT LIVE ABORTION IS! ok it's when the baby isn't out of the mother's womb yet and the doctors PLUNGE! a tube like rod in the base of the baby's head and then they suck take the brain and other fluids out of the baby's head and then the baby's head crushes! THIS IS WHAT SOME WOMEN RIGHTS ACTIVISTS STAND FOR! this is disgusting and everyone says it's ok! what the hell is up with that! wow ppl r just blind today.. well i'm srry i'm getting off topic that just really gets me mad. well all i'm saying is that cloning is bad and shouldn't be used on ppl. i mean they can do it to animals cuz animals don't really have a purpose i guess, but when u do it to a fellow human that's just wrong...well i'm happy that australia has denied cloning. i mean they actually have some moral values.
like abortion and like live abortion! DO U KNOW WHAT LIVE ABORTION IS! ok it's when the baby isn't out of the mother's womb yet and the doctors PLUNGE! a tube like rod in the base of the baby's head and then they suck take the brain and other fluids out of the baby's head and then the baby's head crushes! THIS IS WHAT SOME WOMEN RIGHTS ACTIVISTS STAND FOR! this is disgusting and everyone says it's ok! what the hell is up with that! wow ppl r just blind today.. well i'm srry i'm getting off topic that just really gets me mad. well all i'm saying is that cloning is bad and shouldn't be used on ppl. i mean they can do it to animals cuz animals don't really have a purpose i guess, but when u do it to a fellow human that's just wrong...well i'm happy that australia has denied cloning. i mean they actually have some moral values.
I blame the ruthlessness of the medical profession for alot of this stuff, pushing this onto womans rights is too easy, alot easyer then changing the way doctors think about the value of life. Doctors talk alot of the value of life, but like alot of instituions, good people when dealt with alone, evil when working in the context of an inst.
Also, the Abortion thing is a trick, the leaders of the Born Again movment are self described satanists and they do alot more then just kill babies in their rituals. They could care less about abortions.
If God wants to terminate a birth god modivates the mother to terminate, if god did not want that baby terminated, god would not allow it.
If God did not want us to mess around with Cloning God will directly modify the universe.
God did this once allready when people cross breed with animals, God altered DNA so that humans having sex with animals would not give brith to hybrids.
This was not allways that case you know, much of the art of the anicent world depicts the results of this cross breeding.
For God to directly intervene and to risk showing the hidden hand is a very big deal.
Your not suppost to know for sure if God exists, it would spoil the learning experince of life.
If there really was proof of the existance of God in a scientific context the universe would have to be reset. The same is true of the Christian side of it.
Proof is not allowed.
Also, the Abortion thing is a trick, the leaders of the Born Again movment are self described satanists and they do alot more then just kill babies in their rituals. They could care less about abortions.
If God wants to terminate a birth god modivates the mother to terminate, if god did not want that baby terminated, god would not allow it.
If God did not want us to mess around with Cloning God will directly modify the universe.
God did this once allready when people cross breed with animals, God altered DNA so that humans having sex with animals would not give brith to hybrids.
This was not allways that case you know, much of the art of the anicent world depicts the results of this cross breeding.
For God to directly intervene and to risk showing the hidden hand is a very big deal.
Your not suppost to know for sure if God exists, it would spoil the learning experince of life.
If there really was proof of the existance of God in a scientific context the universe would have to be reset. The same is true of the Christian side of it.
Proof is not allowed.
I agree with Carbonflux.
It is a near miracle we havn't blown ourselves up already experimenting (and using) atomic bombs and such already. If it was meant to be it would be.
I say clone away. If you create some monster or virus that destroys humanity by accident because you have do idea what you are doing it is because the time has come for that to happen. There is no sense worrying about it. it will happen one day anyway weither you believe that is because of the bible propecies or because you believe is statistics. Either way, eventually, it will happen. I just don't think we are quite there yet, however I could be wrong. A big fat comet we dont' even know about could be heading our way right now. We just arn't meant to know until its too late.
It is a near miracle we havn't blown ourselves up already experimenting (and using) atomic bombs and such already. If it was meant to be it would be.
I say clone away. If you create some monster or virus that destroys humanity by accident because you have do idea what you are doing it is because the time has come for that to happen. There is no sense worrying about it. it will happen one day anyway weither you believe that is because of the bible propecies or because you believe is statistics. Either way, eventually, it will happen. I just don't think we are quite there yet, however I could be wrong. A big fat comet we dont' even know about could be heading our way right now. We just arn't meant to know until its too late.