I would love to see a semi-credible debate on the existence of alien visitors to earth and/or Bigfoot. I neither believe nor disbelieve in either of those two subjects (though I lean strongly towards disbelief) and I would like to hear from those who rejects such ideas outright, and those who "seek the truth" or simply wish to play devil's advocate. Here's a few ground rules (suggestions, really) for the forum.
1: A lack of contrary evidence is not considered evidence. (and vice verse)
2: No loch ness monster, "earth was seeded by aliens" or alien abductions. There is far too much evidence to counter those three points.
3: Switch sides as desired. I myself will probably argue both sides.
4: Try to provide references. Scientific publications are great. Reputable newspapers and magazines are acceptable. Conspiracy theory websites are marginally adequate. Referencing your own blog, journal, papers and so on is no good.
5: Provide photographic evidence in favor of such ideas at your own risk. I may not be the most knowledgeable person when it comes to physics or medicine, but I can run circles around most professional artists with photoshop, and will call shenanigans on any doctored images.
Finally, it's all for fun, people. Don't get mad or defensive if you believe in aliens but no-one on this board will back you up. Remember: when all the evidence is cataloged and weighed in, the answer is still not definitive.
All aliens is 3Dmax, photoshop, gum/rubber... If our universe expanding faster than light then how do aliens can fly to as even after 13 bilions years? 
QUOTE (DavidD+Nov 13 2007, 08:10 PM)
All aliens is 3Dmax, photoshop, gum/rubber... If our universe expanding faster than light then how do aliens can fly to as even after 13 bilions years?
If you knew anything about physics, you would know that, according to standard theory, aliens must exist. With only a certain number of possible organisations of matter, in a universe this big, every possible orginisation of matter must exist.
- Gehn
If you knew anything about physics, you would know that, according to standard theory, aliens must exist. With only a certain number of possible organisations of matter, in a universe this big, every possible orginisation of matter must exist.
- Gehn
Really Gehn? Oh gosh, I guess that explains why SETI hasn't been shut down yet... 
(Note: My sarcasm is directed at DavidD in this case.)
--switching sides--
Gehn, I should point out that the DubbaD (Double D, aren't I witty? hehe) likely meant to say "all photographs of aliens are made with either 3D Studios Max, Photoshop or homemade props. Not to mention the supposed impossibility of traveling faster than light. With the expansion of the universe, unless the aliens came from a planet very close to ours (i.e. in the same galactic cluster as the Milky Way) it would be impossible for them to ever reach us, even after 13 billion years."
(Italicized word added by me for reasons to be made clear immediately below...)
--switching sides again--
DubbaD, check this out, then maybe you might want to refine your position on whether or not aliens could reach us. If we're hopeful right now of finding a method of FTL travel one day, then surely a race even a few hundred years ahead of us technologically would have puzzled it out by now.
(Note: My sarcasm is directed at DavidD in this case.)--switching sides--
Gehn, I should point out that the DubbaD (Double D, aren't I witty? hehe) likely meant to say "all photographs of aliens are made with either 3D Studios Max, Photoshop or homemade props. Not to mention the supposed impossibility of traveling faster than light. With the expansion of the universe, unless the aliens came from a planet very close to ours (i.e. in the same galactic cluster as the Milky Way) it would be impossible for them to ever reach us, even after 13 billion years."
(Italicized word added by me for reasons to be made clear immediately below...)
--switching sides again--
DubbaD, check this out, then maybe you might want to refine your position on whether or not aliens could reach us. If we're hopeful right now of finding a method of FTL travel one day, then surely a race even a few hundred years ahead of us technologically would have puzzled it out by now.
That doesn't make sense. "MUST EXIST" I don't mean to be rude but that just seems like comment that could have been worded better or could have been thought out a little better. Maybe it's likely, or probable, but to say it must exist is kind of a stretch I think. But maybe you can explain it so I understand better.
QUOTE (thinkbig!+Nov 13 2007, 03:48 PM)
That doesn't make sense. "MUST EXIST" I don't mean to be rude but that just seems like comment that could have been worded better or could have been thought out a little better. Maybe it's likely, or probable, but to say it must exist is kind of a stretch I think. But maybe you can explain it so I understand better.
"With only a certain number of possible organisations of matter, in a universe this big, every possible orginisation of matter must exist."
Except for adding the phrase "statistically speaking" I can see nothing to be improved upon in that statement.
"With only a certain number of possible organisations of matter, in a universe this big, every possible orginisation of matter must exist."
Except for adding the phrase "statistically speaking" I can see nothing to be improved upon in that statement.
I don't saying that aliens don't exist but they don't realy are near to as. To nearsest star need fly 4 years at speed of light. At half speed of light need 8 years. At half speed of light mass almost don't changing. But I can't understand what why aliens must want to sow our world? And it's is very small probability that aliens exist at nearest star.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFUvt93bHVQ
http://dodownload.filefront.com/2535100//4...ea6e202f41ddd49
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFUvt93bHVQ
http://dodownload.filefront.com/2535100//4...ea6e202f41ddd49
You cant lump Bigfoot or the American Canadian sasquatches, in with UFOs.
The reason is, that time after time park rangers have seen and encountered these beings and filled out qualified reports on them.
Their phila is giaganticopithagus.So they're a qualified species, by many many reported sightings.There is even a proclamation declaring the sasquatches, as honorary citizens, of both Washington State and Oregon.
So only a ***** would continue to debate, if these exist?
On aliens, there are both said sightings and encounters, but these are spit into two types.
These are, aliens that are probably on the pay, tax docket of many governments. And probable aliens that are just coming to Earth, in order to get the goods that they need.
From the recent coming forwards of many elected officials to tell of their sightings, I feel that the cat is pretty well let out of the bag.
The reason is, that time after time park rangers have seen and encountered these beings and filled out qualified reports on them.
Their phila is giaganticopithagus.So they're a qualified species, by many many reported sightings.There is even a proclamation declaring the sasquatches, as honorary citizens, of both Washington State and Oregon.
So only a ***** would continue to debate, if these exist?
On aliens, there are both said sightings and encounters, but these are spit into two types.
These are, aliens that are probably on the pay, tax docket of many governments. And probable aliens that are just coming to Earth, in order to get the goods that they need.
From the recent coming forwards of many elected officials to tell of their sightings, I feel that the cat is pretty well let out of the bag.
QUOTE (philip347+Nov 13 2007, 04:37 PM)
You cant lump Bigfoot or the American Canadian sasquatches, in with UFOs.
The reason is, that time after time park rangers have seen and encountered these beings and filled out qualified reports on them.
Their phila is giaganticopithagus.So they're a qualified species, by many many reported sightings.There is even a proclamation declaring the sasquatches, as honorary citizens, of both Washington State and Oregon.
Cite your sources, or at least state that you're working from memory and cannot provide them. I believe you were trying to refer to: Gigantopithecus blacki, which is a good point. Your manner of making it, however, leaves much to be desired.
Oh, and their Phylum is Chordata.
Gigantopithecus_blacki
Not necessary. Hurling insults is a sure-fire way of convincing the opposition in any debate of your own lack of ground to stand on.
Not necessary. Hurling insults is a sure-fire way of convincing the opposition in any debate of your own lack of ground to stand on.
On aliens, there are both said sightings and encounters, but these are spit into two types.
These are, aliens that are probably on the pay, tax docket of many governments. And probable aliens that are just coming to Earth, in order to get the goods that they need.
From the recent coming forwards of many elected officials to tell of their sightings, I feel that the cat is pretty well let out of the bag.
This whole part doesn't cite references, make specific claims, or present evidence. Don't say "many elected officials," and leave it at that. I might as well say "Well, it's been scientifically proven that aliens never came to earth." and thereby refute any claims to the contrary. Cite your sources.
Note the dubba D, despite his apparent language barrier, provided two such sources. (Also note that I don't ask for irrefutable sources, just any source.)
BDW, you got one on your first cast!
It's all in the bait, and that's where I'm the master.
(Kudos to the first person to find the self-defacing joke in that.)
The reason is, that time after time park rangers have seen and encountered these beings and filled out qualified reports on them.
Their phila is giaganticopithagus.So they're a qualified species, by many many reported sightings.There is even a proclamation declaring the sasquatches, as honorary citizens, of both Washington State and Oregon.
Cite your sources, or at least state that you're working from memory and cannot provide them. I believe you were trying to refer to: Gigantopithecus blacki, which is a good point. Your manner of making it, however, leaves much to be desired.
Oh, and their Phylum is Chordata.
Gigantopithecus_blacki
QUOTE
So only a ***** would continue to debate, if these exist?
Not necessary. Hurling insults is a sure-fire way of convincing the opposition in any debate of your own lack of ground to stand on.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| So only a ***** would continue to debate, if these exist? |
Not necessary. Hurling insults is a sure-fire way of convincing the opposition in any debate of your own lack of ground to stand on.
On aliens, there are both said sightings and encounters, but these are spit into two types.
These are, aliens that are probably on the pay, tax docket of many governments. And probable aliens that are just coming to Earth, in order to get the goods that they need.
From the recent coming forwards of many elected officials to tell of their sightings, I feel that the cat is pretty well let out of the bag.
This whole part doesn't cite references, make specific claims, or present evidence. Don't say "many elected officials," and leave it at that. I might as well say "Well, it's been scientifically proven that aliens never came to earth." and thereby refute any claims to the contrary. Cite your sources.
Note the dubba D, despite his apparent language barrier, provided two such sources. (Also note that I don't ask for irrefutable sources, just any source.)
QUOTE (DavidD+Nov 13 2007, 04:12 PM)
I don't saying that aliens don't exist but they don't realy are near to as. To nearsest star need fly 4 years at speed of light. At half speed of light need 8 years. At half speed of light mass almost don't changing. But I can't understand what why aliens must want to sow our world? And it's is very small probability that aliens exist at nearest star.
BDW, you got one on your first cast!
BDW, you got one on your first cast!
QUOTE (Sapo+Nov 13 2007, 05:31 PM)
BDW, you got one on your first cast! It's all in the bait, and that's where I'm the master.
(Kudos to the first person to find the self-defacing joke in that.)
Nice topic, BDW(Master Baiter),
You're gonna get alot of freakshow answers I'm guessing!
As far as aliens go, we think even on Jupiter's moons that there is water below the surface at reasonable temps (ice will insulate the water below the -270 C surface to @ 0 C). We've found extremophiles on earth that live in worse environments. My point is that with 16 billion years or so to develop, we are probably not the only intelligent beings in the universe. Whether or not we can ever interact or even communicate would be incumbent on FTL travel or some sort of warp movement. I'm hoping in 50,000 yrs someone finds Voyager!
I've seen some of the films of Bigfoot and, maybe this is from not living in the Northwest or Texas, there was nothing convincing I've seen of either prints or Bigfoot himself. Again, that's just opinion.
Good luck, have fun.
Peace,
Ron
Good one Sapo. Is Bush an alien?
You're gonna get alot of freakshow answers I'm guessing!
As far as aliens go, we think even on Jupiter's moons that there is water below the surface at reasonable temps (ice will insulate the water below the -270 C surface to @ 0 C). We've found extremophiles on earth that live in worse environments. My point is that with 16 billion years or so to develop, we are probably not the only intelligent beings in the universe. Whether or not we can ever interact or even communicate would be incumbent on FTL travel or some sort of warp movement. I'm hoping in 50,000 yrs someone finds Voyager!
I've seen some of the films of Bigfoot and, maybe this is from not living in the Northwest or Texas, there was nothing convincing I've seen of either prints or Bigfoot himself. Again, that's just opinion.
Good luck, have fun.
Peace,
Ron
Good one Sapo. Is Bush an alien?
QUOTE (Ron+Nov 13 2007, 06:31 PM)
Nice topic, BDW(Master Baiter),
You're gonna get alot of freakshow answers I'm guessing!
As far as aliens go, we think even on Jupiter's moons that there is water below the surface at reasonable temps (ice will insulate the water below the -270 C surface to @ 0 C). We've found extremophiles on earth that live in worse environments. My point is that with 16 billion years or so to develop, we are probably not the only intelligent beings in the universe. Whether or not we can ever interact or even communicate would be incumbent on FTL travel or some sort of warp movement. I'm hoping in 50,000 yrs someone finds Voyager!
I've seen some of the films of Bigfoot and, maybe this is from not living in the Northwest or Texas, there was nothing convincing I've seen of either prints or Bigfoot himself. Again, that's just opinion.
Good luck, have fun.
Peace,
Ron
Good one Sapo. Is Bush an alien?
Kudos to Ron!
I woulda loved some references on your point about the moons of Jupiter, but I have seen the same, or similar point presented elsewhere, so I do know they exist.
I personally believe that we will eventually find some sort of apparent FTL travel, and we will find intelligent aliens at that point. What I meant by aliens in my original post (and probably should have clarified) was more along the lines of UFOs. Aliens who have visited us. I believe I should also take back what I said about alien abduction; it's hard to find a good reason why they would come here if we discount any occurrence of them studying us. Therefore, for the sake of a balanced (:snicker:) debate, feel free to argue for alien abductions.
You're gonna get alot of freakshow answers I'm guessing!
As far as aliens go, we think even on Jupiter's moons that there is water below the surface at reasonable temps (ice will insulate the water below the -270 C surface to @ 0 C). We've found extremophiles on earth that live in worse environments. My point is that with 16 billion years or so to develop, we are probably not the only intelligent beings in the universe. Whether or not we can ever interact or even communicate would be incumbent on FTL travel or some sort of warp movement. I'm hoping in 50,000 yrs someone finds Voyager!
I've seen some of the films of Bigfoot and, maybe this is from not living in the Northwest or Texas, there was nothing convincing I've seen of either prints or Bigfoot himself. Again, that's just opinion.
Good luck, have fun.
Peace,
Ron
Good one Sapo. Is Bush an alien?
Kudos to Ron!
I woulda loved some references on your point about the moons of Jupiter, but I have seen the same, or similar point presented elsewhere, so I do know they exist.
I personally believe that we will eventually find some sort of apparent FTL travel, and we will find intelligent aliens at that point. What I meant by aliens in my original post (and probably should have clarified) was more along the lines of UFOs. Aliens who have visited us. I believe I should also take back what I said about alien abduction; it's hard to find a good reason why they would come here if we discount any occurrence of them studying us. Therefore, for the sake of a balanced (:snicker:) debate, feel free to argue for alien abductions.
Hey again all,
Hi BDW, here's a link to the Galileo site at NASA.
http://solarsystem.nasa.gov/galileo/?CFID=...FTOKEN=81343480
It talks about Europa right at the top, and the discovery highlights tab has some more good info on the trip.
UFOs here I would be more skeptical about. It would imply that the aliens either don't want us to know they are here or we are being kept from knowing by 'powers that be'. Either of those options don't sit well with me. I won't even get started on abductions!
Peace,
Ron
Hi BDW, here's a link to the Galileo site at NASA.
http://solarsystem.nasa.gov/galileo/?CFID=...FTOKEN=81343480
It talks about Europa right at the top, and the discovery highlights tab has some more good info on the trip.
UFOs here I would be more skeptical about. It would imply that the aliens either don't want us to know they are here or we are being kept from knowing by 'powers that be'. Either of those options don't sit well with me. I won't even get started on abductions!
Peace,
Ron
I know somebody that truly believes they were abducted numerous times by aliens. He even has something on his spinal cord that we have joked was his "implant". But I am no believer...
My favorite proof of alien life form is a picture that was floating around the internet several years back. It was a Martian terrain stitched picture, panoramic but vertical (sky to your "toes", not horizon) so as you were scrolling down the page looking at the Martian terrain, then suddenly you get to the bottom of the pic and there is Marvin the Martian. I found another pic very similar to it a couple years ago, but not the original one....
I would love to see a UFO tho....... Like the one at Chicago O'hare airport...
My favorite proof of alien life form is a picture that was floating around the internet several years back. It was a Martian terrain stitched picture, panoramic but vertical (sky to your "toes", not horizon) so as you were scrolling down the page looking at the Martian terrain, then suddenly you get to the bottom of the pic and there is Marvin the Martian. I found another pic very similar to it a couple years ago, but not the original one....
I would love to see a UFO tho....... Like the one at Chicago O'hare airport...
QUOTE (Ron+Nov 13 2007, 06:31 PM)
...My point is that with 16 billion years or so to develop, we are probably not the only intelligent beings in the universe. Whether or not we can ever interact or even communicate would be incumbent on FTL travel or some sort of warp movement. I'm hoping in 50,000 yrs someone finds Voyager!
Y'all know about Drake's Equation, of course. There's only hope that when they do find Voyager and bring it home, someone's here to say thanks...
How 'bout Ol' Mossback? He's supposed to be an uncounted resident of the Piney Woods, Right?
How 'bout Ol' Mossback? He's supposed to be an uncounted resident of the Piney Woods, Right?
Good one Sapo. Is Bush an alien?
He's from Connecticut, anyway. Too close.
Thanks They, you as well!
Hey BDW,
Looks like you've hooked another big game fish in xtrmn8r! Is it catch and release, or will you mount him? (Just playing X!)
Peace,
Ron
Hey Ron,
Ahh, so far I haven't caught one worth mounting. Each one has the faintest hint of rationality to them. I'm angling for an irredeemable true believer. One who'll fight me tooth and nail over whether aliens are secretly running the government. That one will get stuffed, mounted and displayed on my mantle.
and these found in a 3000 year old temple on the Gaza Plateau of Egypt.
http://www.crystalinks.com/ancientaircraft.html
I would like to hear BDW's professional photoshop opinion, but my belief is that the close up photos of the heiroglyphs are photoshpped. I would love to see a photo that has no touchup or enhancements.
But interesting none the less!
Glad you have a good play attitude.
Y'all know about Drake's Equation, of course. There's only hope that when they do find Voyager and bring it home, someone's here to say thanks...
QUOTE
I've seen some of the films of Bigfoot and, maybe this is from not living in the Northwest or Texas, there was nothing convincing I've seen of either prints or Bigfoot himself. Again, that's just opinion.
How 'bout Ol' Mossback? He's supposed to be an uncounted resident of the Piney Woods, Right?
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| I've seen some of the films of Bigfoot and, maybe this is from not living in the Northwest or Texas, there was nothing convincing I've seen of either prints or Bigfoot himself. Again, that's just opinion. |
How 'bout Ol' Mossback? He's supposed to be an uncounted resident of the Piney Woods, Right?
Good one Sapo. Is Bush an alien?
He's from Connecticut, anyway. Too close.
QUOTE ("THEY"+Nov 13 2007, 07:55 PM)
I know somebody that truly believes they were abducted numerous times by aliens. He even has something on his spinal cord that we have joked was his "implant". But I am no believer...
I've met a bunch, know one of them still. He's a fine guy to talk to about almost anything else, but once you mention something that reminds him of it, he goes all "they're out to get me."
Ironically, he's quite intelligent, and has a more or less believable story. He claims to have been sucked up into a small ship while he was out walking one night, and brought to an orbiting mothership where typical little grey men began waving a variety of devices at him, all the while assuring him (with normal voices, not telepathic ones) that it will all be over soon. He describes the situation with a lot of detail, and consistently portrays the aliens in a manner reminiscent of a couple of biologists capturing and tagging a penguin. I've written down his whole story and have it backed up on cd if anyone's interested. I have to say I found it interesting.
Here's my fav
I've met a bunch, know one of them still. He's a fine guy to talk to about almost anything else, but once you mention something that reminds him of it, he goes all "they're out to get me."
Ironically, he's quite intelligent, and has a more or less believable story. He claims to have been sucked up into a small ship while he was out walking one night, and brought to an orbiting mothership where typical little grey men began waving a variety of devices at him, all the while assuring him (with normal voices, not telepathic ones) that it will all be over soon. He describes the situation with a lot of detail, and consistently portrays the aliens in a manner reminiscent of a couple of biologists capturing and tagging a penguin. I've written down his whole story and have it backed up on cd if anyone's interested. I have to say I found it interesting.
QUOTE
My favorite proof of alien life form is a picture that was floating around the internet several years back. It was a Martian terrain stitched picture, panoramic but vertical (sky to your "toes", not horizon) so as you were scrolling down the page looking at the Martian terrain, then suddenly you get to the bottom of the pic and there is Marvin the Martian.
Here's my fav
hello all,
there is a greater conspiracy to consider
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYzM1M1X790
at what point would the forum accept data as undeniable evidence of "aliens have visited us" ie is a couple of photos and a bunch of eyewitnesses enough ? as for bigfoot would dna be enough ?
there is a greater conspiracy to consider
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYzM1M1X790
at what point would the forum accept data as undeniable evidence of "aliens have visited us" ie is a couple of photos and a bunch of eyewitnesses enough ? as for bigfoot would dna be enough ?
Kids
Flying to us even from nearest star, they would waste more energy resources than exist on all Earth!
Flying to us even from nearest star, they would waste more energy resources than exist on all Earth!
QUOTE (DavidD+Nov 14 2007, 02:08 AM)
Kids
Flying to us even from nearest star, they would waste more energy resources than exist on all Earth!
dubba D, there is such a thing as newtonian physics.
I could fly you to another star with a handfull of bottle rockets, if I had you in orbit, first. It would just take a really long time.
Flying to us even from nearest star, they would waste more energy resources than exist on all Earth!
dubba D, there is such a thing as newtonian physics.
I could fly you to another star with a handfull of bottle rockets, if I had you in orbit, first. It would just take a really long time.
Sasquatch is a very old native legend. I think when someone wanted to scare the crap out of some poor souls, they would dress someone up as a sasquatch and scare the crap out of everyone sitting around the campfire at night. I'd be more concerned about coming across cougars, grizzlies and cloven footed beasts.
UFO's? Unidentified flying object. I would think some may be unexplained phenomena. It usually seems once we have definitive explanations, all the mystery ceases to exist. A radar system onbboard an aircraft, I think would not be immune to unexplainable anomalies.
Crop Circles? There are probably very many methods available to create such strange formations. Myself, I would use a computer controlled laser, either space-based or a clever assortment of mirrors.
Space Elevator? INSANE! I'd prefer a saloon on the moon so I can watch Apophus do the fly by in 2028.
UFO's? Unidentified flying object. I would think some may be unexplained phenomena. It usually seems once we have definitive explanations, all the mystery ceases to exist. A radar system onbboard an aircraft, I think would not be immune to unexplainable anomalies.
Crop Circles? There are probably very many methods available to create such strange formations. Myself, I would use a computer controlled laser, either space-based or a clever assortment of mirrors.
Space Elevator? INSANE! I'd prefer a saloon on the moon so I can watch Apophus do the fly by in 2028.
But still very small probability that exist live on nearest star, so probably need fly not 8 years, but 80, 800 and so on. And also if you will fly at ~10^8 m/s, you will bounce in meteors or asteroid or cosmic dust. And you will need to fly around this all cosmic dust and so need aditional energy to move in left or right... Also would need energy for eating to all aliens, who flying inside spaceship.
And now scientist trying to find microwaves from over civilizations, but do they realize how low amplitude is of those waves? It's perhaps lower than gravitation waves
If universe realy is 13.7 bilions years old and our earth about 4 bilions old, then aliens can be only 9 bilions years older in best case. And aliens can fly to us only from near stars and galaxies, becouse fartherst galaxies flying from us with speed biger than light.
Our galactic milckyway is 5 milions light years wide. So from varies some stars to aliens need fly about milion years. Cosmic friction would waste all they energy... And what if we are only in our galactic and aliens exist only in some over galxies which are bilions years away from our galactic?
And now scientist trying to find microwaves from over civilizations, but do they realize how low amplitude is of those waves? It's perhaps lower than gravitation waves
If universe realy is 13.7 bilions years old and our earth about 4 bilions old, then aliens can be only 9 bilions years older in best case. And aliens can fly to us only from near stars and galaxies, becouse fartherst galaxies flying from us with speed biger than light.
Our galactic milckyway is 5 milions light years wide. So from varies some stars to aliens need fly about milion years. Cosmic friction would waste all they energy... And what if we are only in our galactic and aliens exist only in some over galxies which are bilions years away from our galactic?
Um... wakefield boosted quantum probes...
Er um or how about a spacestation that obits the Sun?
Er um or how about a spacestation that obits the Sun?
About quantum probe I only know that this is myth. And about aliens existing possibility in our sun system I very doubt. How they can be from for example mars if nothing found on mars and conditions bad for live and very big storms on mars becouse low gravitation...
Spacestatio obits the sun, is like god who obits... What is reason for aliens to obit sun and just looking in humans and nothing doing to them? To obit also need many energy and over things like food making, O2 and so on. And why nobody like nasa don't see this station?
Spacestatio obits the sun, is like god who obits... What is reason for aliens to obit sun and just looking in humans and nothing doing to them? To obit also need many energy and over things like food making, O2 and so on. And why nobody like nasa don't see this station?
focused wakefield boosted quantum probes are the future
Can you give some reference?
QUOTE (DavidD+Nov 14 2007, 12:02 PM)
Can you give some reference?
Dubba D, you used good grammer! I'm proud of you.
Now, just double check all your numbers before posting from now on, and you'll do well here.
Dubba D, you used good grammer!
I'm proud of you.Now, just double check all your numbers before posting from now on, and you'll do well here.
QUOTE (Ron+Nov 13 2007, 03:31 PM)
I've seen some of the films of Bigfoot and, maybe this is from not living in the Northwest or Texas, there was nothing convincing I've seen of either prints or Bigfoot himself. Again, that's just opinion.
I DO live in the Pacific Northwest - have all my life... - and I don't believe in Bigfoot at all, so it has nothing to do with living here (or not living here), you have a logical and rational mind Ron.
If the species exists, they would have to bury their dead, their excrement, and all traces of their living. From what I have heard, ALL hair and anything that was to be from Bigfoot, has been DNA tested and found to be bear or something else that is well known. Also, with as few sightings as there are, the population would have to be very small, which would mean for breeding purposes, they would have to travel long distances to mate.
And I have never heard of a park ranger finding evidence... (don't remember who brought that up) But I do know park rangers aren't well paid, and may say anything for some extra cashola.
I DO live in the Pacific Northwest - have all my life... - and I don't believe in Bigfoot at all, so it has nothing to do with living here (or not living here), you have a logical and rational mind Ron.
If the species exists, they would have to bury their dead, their excrement, and all traces of their living. From what I have heard, ALL hair and anything that was to be from Bigfoot, has been DNA tested and found to be bear or something else that is well known. Also, with as few sightings as there are, the population would have to be very small, which would mean for breeding purposes, they would have to travel long distances to mate.
And I have never heard of a park ranger finding evidence... (don't remember who brought that up) But I do know park rangers aren't well paid, and may say anything for some extra cashola.
QUOTE (DavidD+Nov 14 2007, 05:02 PM)
Can you give some reference?
um a... virtual matterwaves?
um a... virtual matterwaves?
QUOTE (BigDumbWeirdo+Nov 13 2007, 05:18 PM)
I believe you were trying to refer to: Gigantopithecus blacki, which is a good point. Your manner of making it, however, leaves much to be desired.
Oh, and their Phylum is Chordata.
Gigantopithecus_blacki
My personal theory on Bigfoot can be summed up by this article. We know that G. Blacki co-existed with modern man, in a part of the world that modern man inhabited at the time. Encounters with Blacki must have been very frightening to early man, because of it's large size and the effects of the uncanny valley. If such encounters were initially common, then faded over time, they might well have evolved into such a strong oral tradition that they survived the test of time, giving name to shadows glimpsed at night, in the woods. Read the wiki article, and note where Blacki lived. Now recall that the Yeti is a southeastern Asian myth, and the native Americans (sasquatch) immigrated here from Asia. The two largest centers of Bigfoot mythology are now covered by one real (if extinct) species. I admit, my logic may not be perfect, but it does make sense.
Oh, and their Phylum is Chordata.
Gigantopithecus_blacki
My personal theory on Bigfoot can be summed up by this article. We know that G. Blacki co-existed with modern man, in a part of the world that modern man inhabited at the time. Encounters with Blacki must have been very frightening to early man, because of it's large size and the effects of the uncanny valley. If such encounters were initially common, then faded over time, they might well have evolved into such a strong oral tradition that they survived the test of time, giving name to shadows glimpsed at night, in the woods. Read the wiki article, and note where Blacki lived. Now recall that the Yeti is a southeastern Asian myth, and the native Americans (sasquatch) immigrated here from Asia. The two largest centers of Bigfoot mythology are now covered by one real (if extinct) species. I admit, my logic may not be perfect, but it does make sense.
Aliens are here and we are they!
But seriously, I have been interested in the Ancient Astronaut Theory for many years and have read many books on the subject, I remain unconvinced.
That being said, there are some things that defy explanation:
A unique device with the gearing precision of a Swiss watch dated to 150 BC,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism.
and these found in a 3000 year old temple on the Gaza Plateau of Egypt.
http://www.crystalinks.com/ancientaircraft.html
As for Bigfoot, I think the jury is still out. New species are being discovered from time to time and not all of our ancient forests have been explored (or plundered).
But seriously, I have been interested in the Ancient Astronaut Theory for many years and have read many books on the subject, I remain unconvinced.
That being said, there are some things that defy explanation:
A unique device with the gearing precision of a Swiss watch dated to 150 BC,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism.
and these found in a 3000 year old temple on the Gaza Plateau of Egypt.
http://www.crystalinks.com/ancientaircraft.html
As for Bigfoot, I think the jury is still out. New species are being discovered from time to time and not all of our ancient forests have been explored (or plundered).
QUOTE ("THEY"+Nov 14 2007, 05:32 PM)
you have a logical and rational mind Ron.
Thanks They, you as well!
Hey BDW,
Looks like you've hooked another big game fish in xtrmn8r! Is it catch and release, or will you mount him? (Just playing X!)
Peace,
Ron
Thanks They, you as well!
Hey BDW,
Looks like you've hooked another big game fish in xtrmn8r! Is it catch and release, or will you mount him? (Just playing X!)
Peace,
Ron
QUOTE (xtrmn8r+Nov 14 2007, 10:48 PM)
A unique device with the gearing precision of a Swiss watch dated to 150 BC,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism.
and these found in a 3000 year old temple on the Gaza Plateau of Egypt.
http://www.crystalinks.com/ancientaircraft.html
I know all about the Antikythera device, and to say it has the gearing precision of a Swiss watch is like saying an abacus has the computing power of a 2007 era PC. It has nowhere NEAR that level of precision. Just plain WRONG.
(I appreciate you citing sources, tho )
As for the hieroglyphs, the first DOES look like a helicopter, but that seems to me more like (incredibly paltry) evidence of some sort of clairvoyance than ancient astronauts. The rest just look like fish or plants to me, and the laughable comparing of one to the Millennium Falcon is just... well... laughable. To suggest that some ancient Egyptian stone carver looked thousands of years into the future, and all he saw was Star Wars? c'mon now.... If I could look thousands of years into the future, pop-culture would be the least interesting thing I could think of to tell people about, or draw pictures of.
I'm glad to hear that. If proponents of such claims wish to be taken seriously by the scientific community, they would do better to remain skeptical of such evidence as they present themselves.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism.
and these found in a 3000 year old temple on the Gaza Plateau of Egypt.
http://www.crystalinks.com/ancientaircraft.html
I know all about the Antikythera device, and to say it has the gearing precision of a Swiss watch is like saying an abacus has the computing power of a 2007 era PC. It has nowhere NEAR that level of precision. Just plain WRONG.
(I appreciate you citing sources, tho
)As for the hieroglyphs, the first DOES look like a helicopter, but that seems to me more like (incredibly paltry) evidence of some sort of clairvoyance than ancient astronauts. The rest just look like fish or plants to me, and the laughable comparing of one to the Millennium Falcon is just... well... laughable. To suggest that some ancient Egyptian stone carver looked thousands of years into the future, and all he saw was Star Wars? c'mon now.... If I could look thousands of years into the future, pop-culture would be the least interesting thing I could think of to tell people about, or draw pictures of.
QUOTE
But seriously, I have been interested in the Ancient Astronaut Theory for many years and have read many books on the subject, I remain unconvinced.
I'm glad to hear that. If proponents of such claims wish to be taken seriously by the scientific community, they would do better to remain skeptical of such evidence as they present themselves.
QUOTE (Ron+Nov 15 2007, 07:56 AM)
Thanks They, you as well!
Hey BDW,
Looks like you've hooked another big game fish in xtrmn8r! Is it catch and release, or will you mount him? (Just playing X!)
Peace,
Ron
Hey Ron,
Ahh, so far I haven't caught one worth mounting. Each one has the faintest hint of rationality to them. I'm angling for an irredeemable true believer. One who'll fight me tooth and nail over whether aliens are secretly running the government. That one will get stuffed, mounted and displayed on my mantle.
QUOTE (BigDumbWeirdo+Nov 15 2007, 11:32 AM)
Hey Ron,
Ahh, so far I haven't caught one worth mounting. Each one has the faintest hint of rationality to them.
I couldn't resist. With so many cranks out there, and so much room on my mantle, I had to reel one in. And now, I present, stuffed, mounted and displayed for the world to see My First Trophy.
Hehe, I'm so proud, even if it is such a little one.
Ahh, so far I haven't caught one worth mounting. Each one has the faintest hint of rationality to them.
I couldn't resist. With so many cranks out there, and so much room on my mantle, I had to reel one in. And now, I present, stuffed, mounted and displayed for the world to see My First Trophy.
Hehe, I'm so proud, even if it is such a little one.
Hi BigDumbWeirdo, Ron, Sapo, et al,
BigDumbWeirdo
For the sake of this debate I will take the pro side. Please remember your OP, this is for fun. I can be easily persuaded against.
Ron,
All jest is accepted, I like to be mounted! No release, I'll stay on the line for awhile and play with you all. Can BigDumbWeirdo do it? Can you?
Here we go. As for the Antikythera Device, the uniqueness is what is important. The comparison to a Swiss watch was an insult to Swiss watchmakers,sorry. It was so far ahead of its time (assuming the dating is correct) as to be an unexplained artifact, but given its age it is a thousand years ahead of anything similar.
As for the Egyptian connection, I did not like that writers interpretations either, but that was the first link I found. I'll try to do better with my links.
Ancient pictographs, figurines and famous paintings have depicted everything from flying discs to figures in spacesuits to men in flying crafts and reptilian countenances.
http://www.crystalinks.com/ufohistory.html
Stories older than the bible tell of fierce aerial battles, of chariots on pillars of fire and of course, the gods/angles/demons descending from the heavens.
http://www.crystalinks.com/ancientastronauts.html
Thats all for now. I hope this will continue. Let's see if I can gain any RATIONAL converts.
BigDumbWeirdo
For the sake of this debate I will take the pro side. Please remember your OP, this is for fun. I can be easily persuaded against.
Ron,
All jest is accepted, I like to be mounted! No release, I'll stay on the line for awhile and play with you all. Can BigDumbWeirdo do it? Can you?
Here we go. As for the Antikythera Device, the uniqueness is what is important. The comparison to a Swiss watch was an insult to Swiss watchmakers,sorry. It was so far ahead of its time (assuming the dating is correct) as to be an unexplained artifact, but given its age it is a thousand years ahead of anything similar.
As for the Egyptian connection, I did not like that writers interpretations either, but that was the first link I found. I'll try to do better with my links.
Ancient pictographs, figurines and famous paintings have depicted everything from flying discs to figures in spacesuits to men in flying crafts and reptilian countenances.
http://www.crystalinks.com/ufohistory.html
Stories older than the bible tell of fierce aerial battles, of chariots on pillars of fire and of course, the gods/angles/demons descending from the heavens.
http://www.crystalinks.com/ancientastronauts.html
Thats all for now. I hope this will continue. Let's see if I can gain any RATIONAL converts.
QUOTE (xtrmn8r+Nov 14 2007, 07:48 PM)
and these found in a 3000 year old temple on the Gaza Plateau of Egypt.
http://www.crystalinks.com/ancientaircraft.html
I would like to hear BDW's professional photoshop opinion, but my belief is that the close up photos of the heiroglyphs are photoshpped. I would love to see a photo that has no touchup or enhancements.
But interesting none the less!
Glad you have a good play attitude.
QUOTE ("THEY"+Nov 15 2007, 07:41 PM)
I would like to hear BDW's professional photoshop opinion, but my belief is that the close up photos of the heiroglyphs are photoshpped. I would love to see a photo that has no touchup or enhancements.
But interesting none the less!
Glad you have a good play attitude.
Damn good point. I never even considered looking closely at them (most looked too much like a fish for me to think them too bizarre for easy rebuttal) I will do so now and post in a minute with my opinion.
xtrmn8r, (Mind if I call you X?) My first thought at your first post was not flattering, but it got much better after your second. I'll say more soon.
But interesting none the less!
Glad you have a good play attitude.
Damn good point. I never even considered looking closely at them (most looked too much like a fish for me to think them too bizarre for easy rebuttal) I will do so now and post in a minute with my opinion.
xtrmn8r, (Mind if I call you X?) My first thought at your first post was not flattering, but it got much better after your second. I'll say more soon.
Ok, that didn't take too long. I would say the pictures have an 80% chance of being "real." I mean real as in they were not altered in such a way as to change or distort the subject (the stone beam on which they're carved.)
The pictures have obviously been color corrected, and had the brightness and contrast adjusted. They were saved in an unusual .gif format, and as a result I'm not real sure about the color depth and specific compression type, which is why I won't give them a 100% real rating. I couldn't see any indication of alterations.
THEY, if you like I'll chop them up and post them here to point out the things that could have been wrong if they were edited. (or edited more poorly, possibly.)
X, I'm pleasantly surprised by both your sense of humor and willingness to concede a point. I'm afraid me and Ron may have judged you too harshly. I remember your statement that you remain unconvinced, along with your statement that you're choosing the pro side specifically, and beg your forgiveness for any perceived insult I may have made. You have not behaved in a manner deserving of such insults. Finally, if you truly are not a believer, then I must commend your bravery in taking such an untenable position. I don't think I'd try to defend it.
And other such pictures of ancient art depicting humanoids.
Every culture from around the world has monsters. (By monsters I mean creatures which do not exist in nature, often appearing as an amalgam of two or more different natural creatures.) Every child, at one point believes in them, and even today, amidst the illuminations of modern science and technology, modern educations and near-instantaneous communications a sizable percentage of adults believe in monsters of one sort or another. For a primitive people to have depicted their gods as not being completely human is understandable. I don't think these pictures show evidence of alien visitation, merely evidence of the vivid nature of human imagination.
One might as well raise this image as an example of "proof" of alien contact, instead of interpreting it for what it is; an alien from star trek, whose prior existence was confined to the imaginations of those who created it. (They're called Gorn, BTW )
Hovering? I see a round object in the center of the plate and a human-like figure around the edge. In fact, it looks like the object in the center is truly a stylized sun.
Hovering? I see a round object in the center of the plate and a human-like figure around the edge. In fact, it looks like the object in the center is truly a stylized sun.
7000 year old petroglyph discovered in the province of Querato, Mexico in 1966.
There are 4 figures with outstretched arms below a large oval object radiating what appear to be beams of light.
Oh my god, a round object in the sky that gives off beams of light?!?!?!?! It must be a UFO. or maybe the sun...
(Note, any sarcasm is directed at your position, not your self.)
Looks like a meteor. I would even go so far as to apply that to any tube shaped objects or cigar shaped objects shown.
Finally, there are some that definitively show disc shaped objects in the sky that clearly aren't meteors (no flames.) I was going to link to the wikipedia page on lenticular clouds, but I see this very page contains a link to another page on the same site that goes over them! So here's both.
lenticular clouds
and
the wiki page
and a picture
Imagine one far off in the west during a sunset, and you can imagine one of the natural phenomena (likely) most commonly mistaken for a flying disc shaped craft.
Finally, on a personal note, I want to say that I used to believe in this stuff. And I don't mean as a young child. I spent much of my teenage years reading various books on aliens, UFOs, bigfoot, the loch ness monster. I believed wholeheartedly in them, and only in the last 10 or so years have I come to lay such beliefs by the wayside, in favor of a more skeptical look at the world. There was simply too much evidence to the contrary, and not enough evidence in favor of such things, and I could not take myself seriously while thinking in such ways.
I understand these beliefs, (I even understand creationists,) and I will happily debate anyone who believes in such things, on one condition. I expect no less from any oponent than I myself was capable of, I demand the same sort of critical appreciation for evidence and the lack thereof that allowed me to shed such unsupported views. X, even if you believe, you seem like you have that quality, and I now have a measure of respect for you, as a result. (and it doesn't hurt that I don't think you believe )
The pictures have obviously been color corrected, and had the brightness and contrast adjusted. They were saved in an unusual .gif format, and as a result I'm not real sure about the color depth and specific compression type, which is why I won't give them a 100% real rating. I couldn't see any indication of alterations.
THEY, if you like I'll chop them up and post them here to point out the things that could have been wrong if they were edited. (or edited more poorly, possibly.)
X, I'm pleasantly surprised by both your sense of humor and willingness to concede a point. I'm afraid me and Ron may have judged you too harshly. I remember your statement that you remain unconvinced, along with your statement that you're choosing the pro side specifically, and beg your forgiveness for any perceived insult I may have made. You have not behaved in a manner deserving of such insults. Finally, if you truly are not a believer, then I must commend your bravery in taking such an untenable position. I don't think I'd try to defend it.
And other such pictures of ancient art depicting humanoids.
Every culture from around the world has monsters. (By monsters I mean creatures which do not exist in nature, often appearing as an amalgam of two or more different natural creatures.) Every child, at one point believes in them, and even today, amidst the illuminations of modern science and technology, modern educations and near-instantaneous communications a sizable percentage of adults believe in monsters of one sort or another. For a primitive people to have depicted their gods as not being completely human is understandable. I don't think these pictures show evidence of alien visitation, merely evidence of the vivid nature of human imagination.
One might as well raise this image as an example of "proof" of alien contact, instead of interpreting it for what it is; an alien from star trek, whose prior existence was confined to the imaginations of those who created it. (They're called Gorn, BTW
)QUOTE
7,000 B.C. - The Lolladoff plate, discovered in Nepal, appears to show a hovering disk-shaped object in the center and a small being, resembling an alien resembling an alien gray, beside it. The circular pattern is reminiscent of the spiraling movement of consciousness - Golden Ratio - Sacred Geometry of creation.
Hovering? I see a round object in the center of the plate and a human-like figure around the edge. In fact, it looks like the object in the center is truly a stylized sun.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| 7,000 B.C. - The Lolladoff plate, discovered in Nepal, appears to show a hovering disk-shaped object in the center and a small being, resembling an alien resembling an alien gray, beside it. The circular pattern is reminiscent of the spiraling movement of consciousness - Golden Ratio - Sacred Geometry of creation. |
Hovering? I see a round object in the center of the plate and a human-like figure around the edge. In fact, it looks like the object in the center is truly a stylized sun.
7000 year old petroglyph discovered in the province of Querato, Mexico in 1966.
There are 4 figures with outstretched arms below a large oval object radiating what appear to be beams of light.
Oh my god, a round object in the sky that gives off beams of light?!?!?!?! It must be a UFO. or maybe the sun...
(Note, any sarcasm is directed at your position, not your self.)
Looks like a meteor. I would even go so far as to apply that to any tube shaped objects or cigar shaped objects shown.
Finally, there are some that definitively show disc shaped objects in the sky that clearly aren't meteors (no flames.) I was going to link to the wikipedia page on lenticular clouds, but I see this very page contains a link to another page on the same site that goes over them! So here's both.
lenticular clouds
and
the wiki page
and a picture
Imagine one far off in the west during a sunset, and you can imagine one of the natural phenomena (likely) most commonly mistaken for a flying disc shaped craft.
Finally, on a personal note, I want to say that I used to believe in this stuff. And I don't mean as a young child. I spent much of my teenage years reading various books on aliens, UFOs, bigfoot, the loch ness monster. I believed wholeheartedly in them, and only in the last 10 or so years have I come to lay such beliefs by the wayside, in favor of a more skeptical look at the world. There was simply too much evidence to the contrary, and not enough evidence in favor of such things, and I could not take myself seriously while thinking in such ways.
I understand these beliefs, (I even understand creationists,) and I will happily debate anyone who believes in such things, on one condition. I expect no less from any oponent than I myself was capable of, I demand the same sort of critical appreciation for evidence and the lack thereof that allowed me to shed such unsupported views. X, even if you believe, you seem like you have that quality, and I now have a measure of respect for you, as a result. (and it doesn't hurt that I don't think you believe
)
BDW, GREAT JOB at describing the photos! Another point I would like to add to the debate, is that many cultures worshipped animals. I will use the Native American culture as an example.
In their pow wows, they like to dress up as animals (bears, eagles.....) and take on the spirit of that animal in their dancing and worship.
I actually EXPECT many ancient images of gods to be in those forms, because there are cultures TODAY that still worship their gods in that same manner.
I don't have time to explain or debate this well, but I think you get my point?
In their pow wows, they like to dress up as animals (bears, eagles.....) and take on the spirit of that animal in their dancing and worship.
I actually EXPECT many ancient images of gods to be in those forms, because there are cultures TODAY that still worship their gods in that same manner.
I don't have time to explain or debate this well, but I think you get my point?
QUOTE ("THEY"+Nov 16 2007, 02:00 PM)
BDW, GREAT JOB at describing the photos! Another point I would like to add to the debate, is that many cultures worshiped animals. I will use the Native American culture as an example.
In their pow wows, they like to dress up as animals (bears, eagles.....) and take on the spirit of that animal in their dancing and worship.
I actually EXPECT many ancient images of gods to be in those forms, because there are cultures TODAY that still worship their gods in that same manner.
I don't have time to explain or debate this well, but I think you get my point?
Indeed, I do. Even today, the cow is a sacred animal to the Hindu religion. Fundamental Christians still associate snakes with Satan.
In their pow wows, they like to dress up as animals (bears, eagles.....) and take on the spirit of that animal in their dancing and worship.
I actually EXPECT many ancient images of gods to be in those forms, because there are cultures TODAY that still worship their gods in that same manner.
I don't have time to explain or debate this well, but I think you get my point?
Indeed, I do. Even today, the cow is a sacred animal to the Hindu religion. Fundamental Christians still associate snakes with Satan.
Hi All,
BigDumbWierdo,
I agree with "THEY", good job on the descriptions. Thanx for the kind words and feedback, and you can call me anything you like.
Ready to try another?
Our hunter gatherer, cave dwelling ancestors obtained an astounding amount of technical and astronomical insight in a few hundred years. They aligned ziggurats and entire cities with solstices and astronomical phenomenon. The figured out how to domesticate wolves and create hybrid grasses still in our food today.
Did they have some help?
Mohenjo Daro – Civil Engineering By Will Hart & Robert Berringer
"Since indoor plumbing did not arrive in modern societies to any extent until the 20th century, and urban planning has still not been adopted much to this date in history, what we find in the ancient city of Mohenjo Daro is anomalous indeed.
This city in the Indus Valley was built on a grid system about 4,500 years ago, obviously planned out and drawn up before the first brick was laid. It had houses, some with indoor plumbing, a granary, baths, an assembly hall and towers all made out of standard size bricks. The streets were about eight to ten feet wide on average, and were built with well-engineered drainage channels.
Mohenjo Daro was divided into two parts; the Citadel was on the upper level and included an elaborate tank called the Great Bath that was made of fine quality brickwork and drains. The Great Bath was 40 feet long and 8 feet deep, a huge public facility by any standards. A giant granary, a large residential building, and several assembly halls were also on this upper level.
The Great Bath was made watertight by the use of two layers of brick, lime-cement and then finally sealed with bitumen (tar). The bath included a shallow section for children.
We should wonder how an ancient culture of which nothing is known, not even their language, created this sophisticated city at a point in time many thousands of years ahead of the curve? Civil engineers do not crawl out of thatched-roof huts able to draw up plans for a complex urban environment. We need to address the following question to archaeologists and historians:
1. Where are the cities that demonstrate the path of urban development, social and technical organisation, leading to Mohenjo Daro?
2. How do you explain the sudden emergence of a complex society when 99.99% of the rest of humanity were living primitively?
These issues cannot be brushed aside with some arrogant pretence that the questions have already been addressed and answered by digging up and labelling pottery shards and other artefacts. We have been and are being overly indulgent with our “soft sciences” regarding their cavalier assertions about having all the answers. In fact, they have very few, so why are they throwing stones at independent researchers from behind glass towers?
Extraordinarily little is known about the Indus Valley civilisation that once spanned nearly a thousand miles with other cities matching the description of Mohenjo Daro."
The Origin Of Dogs – Biogenetic engineering By Will Hart & Robert Berringer
" Now we turn to a mystery that nearly equals the pyramid, though it is a little known conundrum hidden in the mists of remote antiquity. Let us start with a simple question that appears to have an obvious answer: what is a dog? It turns out geneticists in the past decade have shown the answer is not so obvious. In fact, generations of anthropologists, archaeologists and wildlife biologists turned out to be dead wrong when it came to the origins of “man’s best friend”.
Prior to DNA studies conducted in the 1990s, the generally accepted theory posited that dogs branched off from a variety of wild canids, i.e., coyotes, hyenas, jackals, wolves and so on, about 15,000 years ago. The results of the first comprehensive DNA study shocked the scholarly community. The study found that all dog breeds can be traced back to wolves and not other canids. The second part of the finding was even more unexpected – the branching off occurred from 40-150,000 years ago.
Why do these findings pose a problem? We have to answer that question with another question: how were dogs bred from wolves? This is not just difficult to explain, it is impossible. Do not be fooled by the pseudo-explanations put forth by science writers that state our Stone Age ancestors befriended wolves and somehow (the procedure is never articulated) managed to breed the first mutant wolf, the mother of all dogs. Sorry, we like dogs too, but that is what a dog is.
The problems come at the crucial stage of taking a male and female wolf and getting them to produce a subspecies (assuming you could tame and interact with them at all). Let us take this one step further by returning to our original question, what is a dog? A dog is a mutated wolf that only has those characteristics of the wild parent, which humans find companionable and useful. That is an amazing fact.
Think about those statements for a moment. If you are thinking that dogs evolved naturally from wolves, that is not an option. No scientist believes that because the stringent wolf pecking order and breeding rituals would never allow a mutant to survive, at least that is one strong argument against natural evolution.
Now, if our Paleolithic ancestors could have pulled off this feat, and the actual challenges posed by the process are far more taxing, then wolf/dog breeders today certainly should have no problem duplicating it. But like the Great Pyramid, that does not seem to be the case. No breeders have stepped up to the plate claiming they can take two pure wolves and produce a dog sans biogenetic engineering techniques.
The evolution of the domesticated dog from a wild pack animal appears to be a miracle! It should not have happened. This is another unexplained enigma."
BigDumbWierdo,
I agree with "THEY", good job on the descriptions. Thanx for the kind words and feedback, and you can call me anything you like.
Ready to try another?Our hunter gatherer, cave dwelling ancestors obtained an astounding amount of technical and astronomical insight in a few hundred years. They aligned ziggurats and entire cities with solstices and astronomical phenomenon. The figured out how to domesticate wolves and create hybrid grasses still in our food today.
Did they have some help?
Mohenjo Daro – Civil Engineering By Will Hart & Robert Berringer
"Since indoor plumbing did not arrive in modern societies to any extent until the 20th century, and urban planning has still not been adopted much to this date in history, what we find in the ancient city of Mohenjo Daro is anomalous indeed.
This city in the Indus Valley was built on a grid system about 4,500 years ago, obviously planned out and drawn up before the first brick was laid. It had houses, some with indoor plumbing, a granary, baths, an assembly hall and towers all made out of standard size bricks. The streets were about eight to ten feet wide on average, and were built with well-engineered drainage channels.
Mohenjo Daro was divided into two parts; the Citadel was on the upper level and included an elaborate tank called the Great Bath that was made of fine quality brickwork and drains. The Great Bath was 40 feet long and 8 feet deep, a huge public facility by any standards. A giant granary, a large residential building, and several assembly halls were also on this upper level.
The Great Bath was made watertight by the use of two layers of brick, lime-cement and then finally sealed with bitumen (tar). The bath included a shallow section for children.
We should wonder how an ancient culture of which nothing is known, not even their language, created this sophisticated city at a point in time many thousands of years ahead of the curve? Civil engineers do not crawl out of thatched-roof huts able to draw up plans for a complex urban environment. We need to address the following question to archaeologists and historians:
1. Where are the cities that demonstrate the path of urban development, social and technical organisation, leading to Mohenjo Daro?
2. How do you explain the sudden emergence of a complex society when 99.99% of the rest of humanity were living primitively?
These issues cannot be brushed aside with some arrogant pretence that the questions have already been addressed and answered by digging up and labelling pottery shards and other artefacts. We have been and are being overly indulgent with our “soft sciences” regarding their cavalier assertions about having all the answers. In fact, they have very few, so why are they throwing stones at independent researchers from behind glass towers?
Extraordinarily little is known about the Indus Valley civilisation that once spanned nearly a thousand miles with other cities matching the description of Mohenjo Daro."
The Origin Of Dogs – Biogenetic engineering By Will Hart & Robert Berringer
" Now we turn to a mystery that nearly equals the pyramid, though it is a little known conundrum hidden in the mists of remote antiquity. Let us start with a simple question that appears to have an obvious answer: what is a dog? It turns out geneticists in the past decade have shown the answer is not so obvious. In fact, generations of anthropologists, archaeologists and wildlife biologists turned out to be dead wrong when it came to the origins of “man’s best friend”.
Prior to DNA studies conducted in the 1990s, the generally accepted theory posited that dogs branched off from a variety of wild canids, i.e., coyotes, hyenas, jackals, wolves and so on, about 15,000 years ago. The results of the first comprehensive DNA study shocked the scholarly community. The study found that all dog breeds can be traced back to wolves and not other canids. The second part of the finding was even more unexpected – the branching off occurred from 40-150,000 years ago.
Why do these findings pose a problem? We have to answer that question with another question: how were dogs bred from wolves? This is not just difficult to explain, it is impossible. Do not be fooled by the pseudo-explanations put forth by science writers that state our Stone Age ancestors befriended wolves and somehow (the procedure is never articulated) managed to breed the first mutant wolf, the mother of all dogs. Sorry, we like dogs too, but that is what a dog is.
The problems come at the crucial stage of taking a male and female wolf and getting them to produce a subspecies (assuming you could tame and interact with them at all). Let us take this one step further by returning to our original question, what is a dog? A dog is a mutated wolf that only has those characteristics of the wild parent, which humans find companionable and useful. That is an amazing fact.
Think about those statements for a moment. If you are thinking that dogs evolved naturally from wolves, that is not an option. No scientist believes that because the stringent wolf pecking order and breeding rituals would never allow a mutant to survive, at least that is one strong argument against natural evolution.
Now, if our Paleolithic ancestors could have pulled off this feat, and the actual challenges posed by the process are far more taxing, then wolf/dog breeders today certainly should have no problem duplicating it. But like the Great Pyramid, that does not seem to be the case. No breeders have stepped up to the plate claiming they can take two pure wolves and produce a dog sans biogenetic engineering techniques.
The evolution of the domesticated dog from a wild pack animal appears to be a miracle! It should not have happened. This is another unexplained enigma."
QUOTE (xtrmn8r+Nov 16 2007, 07:00 PM)
Hi All,
BigDumbWierdo,
I agree with "THEY", good job on the descriptions. Thanx for the kind words and feedback, and you can call me anything you like. Ready to try another?
The Origin Of Dogs – Biogenetic engineering By Will Hart & Robert Berringer
" Now we turn to a mystery that nearly equals the pyramid, though it is a little known conundrum hidden in the mists of remote antiquity. Let us start with a simple question that appears to have an obvious answer: what is a dog? It turns out geneticists in the past decade have shown the answer is not so obvious. In fact, generations of anthropologists, archaeologists and wildlife biologists turned out to be dead wrong when it came to the origins of “man’s best friend”.
Prior to DNA studies conducted in the 1990s, the generally accepted theory posited that dogs branched off from a variety of wild canids, i.e., coyotes, hyenas, jackals, wolves and so on, about 15,000 years ago. The results of the first comprehensive DNA study shocked the scholarly community. The study found that all dog breeds can be traced back to wolves and not other canids. The second part of the finding was even more unexpected – the branching off occurred from 40-150,000 years ago.
Why do these findings pose a problem? We have to answer that question with another question: how were dogs bred from wolves? This is not just difficult to explain, it is impossible. Do not be fooled by the pseudo-explanations put forth by science writers that state our Stone Age ancestors befriended wolves and somehow (the procedure is never articulated) managed to breed the first mutant wolf, the mother of all dogs. Sorry, we like dogs too, but that is what a dog is.
The problems come at the crucial stage of taking a male and female wolf and getting them to produce a subspecies (assuming you could tame and interact with them at all). Let us take this one step further by returning to our original question, what is a dog? A dog is a mutated wolf that only has those characteristics of the wild parent, which humans find companionable and useful. That is an amazing fact.
Think about those statements for a moment. If you are thinking that dogs evolved naturally from wolves, that is not an option. No scientist believes that because the stringent wolf pecking order and breeding rituals would never allow a mutant to survive, at least that is one strong argument against natural evolution.
Now, if our Paleolithic ancestors could have pulled off this feat, and the actual challenges posed by the process are far more taxing, then wolf/dog breeders today certainly should have no problem duplicating it. But like the Great Pyramid, that does not seem to be the case. No breeders have stepped up to the plate claiming they can take two pure wolves and produce a dog sans biogenetic engineering techniques.
The evolution of the domesticated dog from a wild pack animal appears to be a miracle! It should not have happened. This is another unexplained enigma."
X is it, then! Either that, or "cool guy."
I'll start with your second point. Anyone who has spent much time outdoors, hunting or camping can tell you that there is some strange connection between wolf and man. Now, I'm not saying that this is always the case, but there is something to it, something like the curiosity dolphins have for man, but manifesting itself less often. To think that some overly curious wolf was drawn to a primitive man one night, and worked up the nerve to come close enough to be petted, and perhaps even fed is no big stretch.
However, despite this being a noticeable phenomenon, it is not a common one, so for the sake of this argument I shall drop that point.
Have you ever come across a nest of feral kittens? They are truly that; feral. As young and cute as they are, they hiss and spit and swat at anything but mom who comes near them. However, if you catch one, and keep it, over time it will get used to you. It will grow accustomed to you feeding it, and eventually it will develop an affection for you. Now, if you were to keep this feral kitten until it grew up, eventually it would (if given any freedom) run off. However, there will be a point at which the cat in question will be both sexually developed and still with you. If you were to have taken more than one from the litter, and both sexes were represented in the kittens you keep, there is a good chance that the female will give birth while you are still in possession of her. If so, the affection she feels towards you will manifest itself soon, as she will (once they are old enough to move around on their own) bring them to you, for food. Now, you favor the friendliest of this new generation of kittens, and ensure it mates, while the less friendly kittens fail to, and you have a third generation of kittens, this one with a slight genetic disposition towards an affection for humans.
Now I have two more points to add to that.
1: All of this translates to wolves without any loss in validity.
2: Almost any animal will, if raised by man, socialize with men. Even first generation pets.
I'll get your first point later, I need some time away from the computer
BigDumbWierdo,
I agree with "THEY", good job on the descriptions. Thanx for the kind words and feedback, and you can call me anything you like.
Ready to try another?The Origin Of Dogs – Biogenetic engineering By Will Hart & Robert Berringer
" Now we turn to a mystery that nearly equals the pyramid, though it is a little known conundrum hidden in the mists of remote antiquity. Let us start with a simple question that appears to have an obvious answer: what is a dog? It turns out geneticists in the past decade have shown the answer is not so obvious. In fact, generations of anthropologists, archaeologists and wildlife biologists turned out to be dead wrong when it came to the origins of “man’s best friend”.
Prior to DNA studies conducted in the 1990s, the generally accepted theory posited that dogs branched off from a variety of wild canids, i.e., coyotes, hyenas, jackals, wolves and so on, about 15,000 years ago. The results of the first comprehensive DNA study shocked the scholarly community. The study found that all dog breeds can be traced back to wolves and not other canids. The second part of the finding was even more unexpected – the branching off occurred from 40-150,000 years ago.
Why do these findings pose a problem? We have to answer that question with another question: how were dogs bred from wolves? This is not just difficult to explain, it is impossible. Do not be fooled by the pseudo-explanations put forth by science writers that state our Stone Age ancestors befriended wolves and somehow (the procedure is never articulated) managed to breed the first mutant wolf, the mother of all dogs. Sorry, we like dogs too, but that is what a dog is.
The problems come at the crucial stage of taking a male and female wolf and getting them to produce a subspecies (assuming you could tame and interact with them at all). Let us take this one step further by returning to our original question, what is a dog? A dog is a mutated wolf that only has those characteristics of the wild parent, which humans find companionable and useful. That is an amazing fact.
Think about those statements for a moment. If you are thinking that dogs evolved naturally from wolves, that is not an option. No scientist believes that because the stringent wolf pecking order and breeding rituals would never allow a mutant to survive, at least that is one strong argument against natural evolution.
Now, if our Paleolithic ancestors could have pulled off this feat, and the actual challenges posed by the process are far more taxing, then wolf/dog breeders today certainly should have no problem duplicating it. But like the Great Pyramid, that does not seem to be the case. No breeders have stepped up to the plate claiming they can take two pure wolves and produce a dog sans biogenetic engineering techniques.
The evolution of the domesticated dog from a wild pack animal appears to be a miracle! It should not have happened. This is another unexplained enigma."
X is it, then! Either that, or "cool guy."
I'll start with your second point. Anyone who has spent much time outdoors, hunting or camping can tell you that there is some strange connection between wolf and man. Now, I'm not saying that this is always the case, but there is something to it, something like the curiosity dolphins have for man, but manifesting itself less often. To think that some overly curious wolf was drawn to a primitive man one night, and worked up the nerve to come close enough to be petted, and perhaps even fed is no big stretch.
However, despite this being a noticeable phenomenon, it is not a common one, so for the sake of this argument I shall drop that point.
Have you ever come across a nest of feral kittens? They are truly that; feral. As young and cute as they are, they hiss and spit and swat at anything but mom who comes near them. However, if you catch one, and keep it, over time it will get used to you. It will grow accustomed to you feeding it, and eventually it will develop an affection for you. Now, if you were to keep this feral kitten until it grew up, eventually it would (if given any freedom) run off. However, there will be a point at which the cat in question will be both sexually developed and still with you. If you were to have taken more than one from the litter, and both sexes were represented in the kittens you keep, there is a good chance that the female will give birth while you are still in possession of her. If so, the affection she feels towards you will manifest itself soon, as she will (once they are old enough to move around on their own) bring them to you, for food. Now, you favor the friendliest of this new generation of kittens, and ensure it mates, while the less friendly kittens fail to, and you have a third generation of kittens, this one with a slight genetic disposition towards an affection for humans.
Now I have two more points to add to that.
1: All of this translates to wolves without any loss in validity.
2: Almost any animal will, if raised by man, socialize with men. Even first generation pets.
I'll get your first point later, I need some time away from the computer
I'm going to jump on the band wagon with X for a minute here.
So lets all agree (for the moment) that aliens HAVE been here on earth for thousands of years, and have helped ancient populations with technology, breeding dogs, building cities, pyramids etc. Why are they hiding behind the curtain now?
And if they are doing genetic testing and probing our #*$, then one would suspect that was going on thousands of years ago too. Wouldn't man have feared aliens then? Instead of revering them? So why the medical testing now?
And talking about dogs being bred 40,000 years ago, and the Mohenjo Daro city... I have often wondered just how many "dark ages" the world has been through? Considering the degradation of the 4000 year old .... erm... planetary gear thingy (no time to look) would we expect to find any 10,000 year old technology? Pyramids and Spynx aside.... Are we really the only technological civilization?
So lets all agree (for the moment) that aliens HAVE been here on earth for thousands of years, and have helped ancient populations with technology, breeding dogs, building cities, pyramids etc. Why are they hiding behind the curtain now?
And if they are doing genetic testing and probing our #*$, then one would suspect that was going on thousands of years ago too. Wouldn't man have feared aliens then? Instead of revering them? So why the medical testing now?
And talking about dogs being bred 40,000 years ago, and the Mohenjo Daro city... I have often wondered just how many "dark ages" the world has been through? Considering the degradation of the 4000 year old .... erm... planetary gear thingy (no time to look) would we expect to find any 10,000 year old technology? Pyramids and Spynx aside....
Are we really the only technological civilization?
Hi ,
"THEY",
You picked up on one of the major reasons I am skeptical of modern alien abduction stories. If they have been poking our collective orifices for thousands of years, what would they expect to find now?( I know, I'm waffling here).
As for the Antikythera Device, that has been of interest to me because of it's uniqueness. Nothing has been found that could not have been manufactured with the technology of the day. That device is as close as it gets to something "Alien".
BigDumbWeirdo,
From the article:
While I realize they have no need to, I wonder if it's been tried and they failed?
This link I referenced but failed to include in my previous post regarding cereal grasses.
While I realize they have no need to, I wonder if it's been tried and they failed?
This link I referenced but failed to include in my previous post regarding cereal grasses.
If you believe that our ancestors domesticated crop plants, you have to start by assuming that people without any agricultural experience were brilliant enough to select and breed the best wild seed candidates to turn into major cereal crops. It is a historical fact that in spite of 5,000 years of continuous agricultural development we have not genetically bred a new major crop from a wild species. Just how ingenious were out Stone Age predecessors who performed this agronomic feat without any agricultural or genetic knowledge?
"THEY",
You picked up on one of the major reasons I am skeptical of modern alien abduction stories. If they have been poking our collective orifices for thousands of years, what would they expect to find now?( I know, I'm waffling here).
As for the Antikythera Device, that has been of interest to me because of it's uniqueness. Nothing has been found that could not have been manufactured with the technology of the day. That device is as close as it gets to something "Alien".
BigDumbWeirdo,
From the article:
QUOTE
No breeders have stepped up to the plate claiming they can take two pure wolves and produce a dog sans biogenetic engineering techniques
While I realize they have no need to, I wonder if it's been tried and they failed?
This link I referenced but failed to include in my previous post regarding cereal grasses.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| No breeders have stepped up to the plate claiming they can take two pure wolves and produce a dog sans biogenetic engineering techniques |
While I realize they have no need to, I wonder if it's been tried and they failed?
This link I referenced but failed to include in my previous post regarding cereal grasses.
If you believe that our ancestors domesticated crop plants, you have to start by assuming that people without any agricultural experience were brilliant enough to select and breed the best wild seed candidates to turn into major cereal crops. It is a historical fact that in spite of 5,000 years of continuous agricultural development we have not genetically bred a new major crop from a wild species. Just how ingenious were out Stone Age predecessors who performed this agronomic feat without any agricultural or genetic knowledge?
Hey THEY, X.
I'm going out of town for the weekend, so I probably won't post till monday.
If anyone would care to take my place (on the anti- side opposing X) I would love to see what happens. I'm kinda hoping to get something going with this thread, and so far just a handful of people have participated.
Seeya in the flipside
I'm going out of town for the weekend, so I probably won't post till monday.
If anyone would care to take my place (on the anti- side opposing X) I would love to see what happens. I'm kinda hoping to get something going with this thread, and so far just a handful of people have participated.
Seeya in the flipside
BDW, back in town yet?
QUOTE ("THEY"+Nov 26 2007, 01:14 PM)
BDW, back in town yet?
Yeah, been back, just haven't seen any new replies on this thread, so I haven't been here yet Nobody wants to talk about bigfoot or aliens.
I'm shocked, considering the amount of pseudoscience being spewed forth on this board on a daily basis....
Yeah, been back, just haven't seen any new replies on this thread, so I haven't been here yet
Nobody wants to talk about bigfoot or aliens. I'm shocked, considering the amount of pseudoscience being spewed forth on this board on a daily basis....
Well, I think this forum needs something more light hearted than what seems to be going on... So I will make a challenge to those who posted in the past, and the watchers to become involved.
Does anyone have pictures of UFOs that are considered real or possibilities? I wish there were pictures of the O'Hare airport incident........ Brownies for any new fun ones... Call it a scavenger hunt.
Does anyone have pictures of UFOs that are considered real or possibilities? I wish there were pictures of the O'Hare airport incident........ Brownies for any new fun ones...
Call it a scavenger hunt.
Well, anything for brownies !
In March 2004, Mexican Air Force pilots filmed 11 unidentified flying objects in the skies, over Campeche state, Mexico. A news article quickly came out:
Background Information / Description:
Mexican Air Force pilots filmed 11 unidentified flying objects in the skies over southern Campeche state in Mexico, a Mexican Defense Department spokesman confirmed Tuesday. A videotape was made widely available to the news media.
For more information, please see the special feature by UFO Evidence at http://www.ufoevidence.org/feature/MexicanAirForce.htm
--------------
ASSOCIATED PRESS NEWS ARTICLE:
"Mexican Air Force Pilots Film 11 UFOs"
Associated Press 5/11/04
MEXICO CITY (AP) - Mexican Air Force pilots filmed 11 unidentified flying objects in the skies over southern Campeche state, a Defense Department spokesman confirmed Tuesday.
A videotape made widely available to the news media on Tuesday shows the bright objects, some sharp points of light and others like large headlights, moving rapidly in what appears to be a late-evening sky.
The lights were filmed on March 5 by pilots using infrared equipment. They appeared to be flying at an altitude of about 3,500 meters (11,480 feet), and allegedly surrounded the Air Force jet as it conducted routine anti-drug trafficking vigilance in Campeche. Only three of the objects showed up on the plane's radar.
``Was I afraid? Yes. A little afraid because we were facing something that had never happened before,'' said radar operator Lt. German Marin in a taped interview made public Tuesday.
``I couldn't say what it was ... but I think they're completely real,'' added Lt. Mario Adrian Vazquez, the infrared equipment operator. Vazquez insisted that there was no way to alter the recorded images.
The plane's captain, Maj. Magdaleno Castanon, said the military jets chased the lights ``and I believe they could feel we were pursuing them.''
When the jets stopped following the objects, they disappeared, he said.
A Defense Department spokesman confirmed Tuesday that the videotape was filmed by members of the Mexican Air Force. The spokesman declined to comment further and spoke on customary condition of anonymity.
The video was first aired on national television Monday night then again at a news conference Tuesday by Jaime Maussan, a Mexican investigator who has dedicated the past 10 years to studying UFOs.
``This is historic news,'' Maussan told reporters. ``Hundreds of videos (of UFOs) exist, but none had the backing of the armed forces of any country. ... The armed forces don't perpetuate frauds.''
Maussan said Secretary of Defense Gen. Ricardo Vega Garcia gave him the video on April 22.
---------------------
MEXICAN RESEARCHER AND JOURNALIST JAIME MAUSSAN'S PRESS BRIEFING, MEXICO CITY, 5/12/2004:
Following yesterday’s news story about the sighting of eleven UFOs by a Mexican Military aircraft, the Mexican Department of Defense - under Secretary of Defense General Clemente Vega Garcia, commander of all armed forces in the country – have taken the unprecedented step of publically confirming the incident. The press conference took place at the Hotel Sevilla Palace in Mexico city and international media representatives were invited.
JAIME MAUSSAN'S PRESS BRIEFING DOCUMENT:
THE FACTS: On April 20, 2004 Jaime Maussan was contacted by a high officer of the Department of Defense to have a private meeting and discuss a subject of a high relevant matter. The next day Maussan met General Clemente Vega Garcia, Secretary of Defense and his major staff and was informed about an incident that took place on March 5, 2004 on the aerial space of Ciudad del Carmen, Campeche where an Air Force Merlín C26A Bimotor airplane was doing a routine flight to detect a smuggling drug airplane during an ant-narcotics operation.
The Merlin C26A was equipped with a high tech advanced digital equipment to register and record all the activities during the operation. Powerful sensor detectors like a FLIR STAR ZAPPHIR II and a RADAR AN/PS 143 BRAVO VICTOR 3 were being used by qualified personal aboard the airplane and all the operation was being recorded both in normal and infrared mode. The airplane was under the command of Mayor Magdaleno Jasso Núñez.
The FLIR operator was Lt. Mario Adrián Vázquez and the RADAR operator Lt. German Ramirez, all of them members of the 501 Aerial Squadron. This airplane is programmed only for surveillance and detection procedures, not for interception or combat manouvres. Their duty is to detect and identify drug dealers flights and then immediately report them to the base where combat planes are scrambled to intercept those narcotics smugglers. At approximately 17:00 PM the Merlin C26A detected an unknown traffic at 10,500 feet over Ciudad del Carmen, Campeche airspace and according to the protocol and suspecting a drug dealer airplane Mayor Magdaleno Jasso made a maneuver to approach the unidentified traffic at certain range to get a close look and record the target with their equipment.
At the same time Mayor Jasso reported by radio to the base that a possible suspect was detected requesting the interceptor planes to be in alert condition. The RADAR AN/PS 143 BRAVO VICTOR 3 was detecting the unknown traffic and the FLIR STAR ZAPPHIR II was recording the object in infrared. As the Merlin C26A tried to approach the unknown traffic to make a visual identification it suddenly in a surprising maneuver escaped flying away at tremendous speed.
By this time Mayor Jasso tried to persecute the target but it was very fast. All this was being recorded by the FLAIR and also the radio conversations with the base describing the unexpected maneuver of the unknown. However the C26A still have not made visual contact with the unknown object. Just some moments passed when suddenly the unknown object returned and began following the Merlin C26A in a surprising situation.
This was detected by the RADAR and the FLIR while the personal aboard were trying to make visual contact of the unidentified traffic now following them. In seconds the equipment detected now not only one but two traffics following them. The images in both RADAR and the FLIR were clear and unmistakable. But both pilot and personal still couldn’t have visual contact with these two traffics following them adding a great suspense to this disconcerting situation. Mayor Magdaleno Jasso reported to the base the incident that was taking place giving detail of all the information registered by the equipment while keep trying to make visual contact of the unknowns. The FLIR kept recording in infrared every movement made by the two unknown objects that seemed to be keeping their distance from the C26A but still following it. The personal aboard the Merlin C26A were confused and disconcerted seeing the images on the FLIR and the RADAR asking themselves what was going on with this situation.
THE INCIDENT TURNS MORE DRAMATIC
But the stressing moment that the C26A crew were passing through was just the beginning of something more dramatic that will turn their undesirable experience into a real nightmare. Some minutes passed while the Mexican Air Force Merlin C26A crew continued making maneuvers to have a visual contact of the unknowns because despite both RADAR and FLIR were showing perfectly clear both unidentified objects for unexplained reasons there was not a visual contact even that the objects by this time were at close range. It was during this round and round maneuvers to identify these two objects that something amazing happened. In a matter of seconds more unknown objects arrived to the scene and the disconcert of the C26A crew was total.
The RADAR and the FLIR detected immediately the presence of nine new objects of the same size and characteristics, unknown objects that arrived to the scene surprisingly like coming from nowhere.
Now the situation has entered into a high level of danger so Mayor Magdaleno Jasso reported by radio to the base this new situation requesting instructions. But the most bizarre thing was that even though there were eleven unknown objects close to them, still the crew couldn’t see them, no visual contact with the unknowns was possible for some reason never experienced before by these high trained men. However the high tech sophisticated equipment and sensors were not lying, there were eleven targets outside them with unpredictable intentions.
At the middle of a complete confusion and disconcert among the C26A crew the unknown objects suddenly made a maneuver surrounding the Mexican Air Force airplane in a circle at close range. The RADAR and FLIR presented an image of an eleven objects near by in a circle formation around the Merlin C26A. The situation turned out of control. Mayor Magdaleno Jasso reported to the base that the C26A situation was now in red alert, surrounded by eleven mysterious round shaped objects camouflaged with a certain unknown advanced technology that avoid any visual contact of them.
However Mayor Jasso kept the calm as well as the crew who were working fast measuring and recording every detail of this unique incident conscientious of their duty as military and trained men. Confronting this situation surrounded by unidentified objects in an unpredictable ending Mayor Magdaleno Jasso took the decision of turning out all the airplane lights and wait to see what happened. Moments of high suspense lived by the crew while the FLIR was recording the images of those bright objects even that visual contact was not possible, moments of silence and uncertainty.
The C26A crew kept calmed doing their duty, documenting every moment of the strange incident while Mayor Jasso continued in contact with the base. After some stressing minutes the eleven objects disappeared giving an end to the strange experience that these members of the 501 Aerial Squadron just lived. The Merlin C26A returned safe to the Air Force Base and Mayor Magdaleno Jasso prepared a complete report of the incident along with the C26A crew. The Secretary of the Defense took notice of Mayor Jasso's report and began a full investigation studying and evaluating every element of the case.
Statements of the crew, images, lectures, measurements of all the equipment as well as a complete evaluation of the meteorological data . The incident was taken very seriously by the Department of Defense Staff and after several weeks of investigation they decided under the command of General Clemente Vega Garcia to contact researcher and TV journalist Jaime Maussan for a special collaboration in this investigation as an experienced researcher in these matters. On April 22, 2004 General Clemente Vega, Secretary of Defense gave Jaime Maussan a copy of all the tapes and data collected by the Merlin C26A during the incident for study, evaluation and analysis by Maussan's research team as complement of this investigation and as an external collaborating source trying to establish a definition of the possible motives and consequences of the March 5, 2004 incident.
General Vega as well as his staff were very open to discuss the subject and showed their legitimate interest in conducting this investigation in order to establish the truth of what happened. General Vega authorized the Merlin C26A crew to give Jaime Maussan the interviews needed without any censorship, giving all the facilities to present this case to the Mexican people, an historic and unprecedented decision that will open a new era of mutual collaboration among the Mexican ufologists and the military forces, a collaboration based in respect and interest to find the truth of the intense UFO activity we have been experiencing here in Mexico since the beginning of the Amazing Mexican UFO Wave back in July 11, 1991.
This new era of relationship among the Mexican UFO witnesses, skywatchers, ufologists and our military forces will try to establish and give form to a new legislation in our law system focused to be prepared for any incident involving these unidentified flying objects, our people, our commercial and military airplanes etc. for learning and understanding what are we going to do and how are we going to confront this reality.
---------------------------------
Note that this was confirmed by multiple witnesses, and was recorded by the armed forces, who usually "don't perpetuate frauds" .
Well? Is that good enough?
- Gehn
Edit: More Pics!!!
!In March 2004, Mexican Air Force pilots filmed 11 unidentified flying objects in the skies, over Campeche state, Mexico. A news article quickly came out:
Background Information / Description:
Mexican Air Force pilots filmed 11 unidentified flying objects in the skies over southern Campeche state in Mexico, a Mexican Defense Department spokesman confirmed Tuesday. A videotape was made widely available to the news media.
For more information, please see the special feature by UFO Evidence at http://www.ufoevidence.org/feature/MexicanAirForce.htm
--------------
ASSOCIATED PRESS NEWS ARTICLE:
"Mexican Air Force Pilots Film 11 UFOs"
Associated Press 5/11/04
MEXICO CITY (AP) - Mexican Air Force pilots filmed 11 unidentified flying objects in the skies over southern Campeche state, a Defense Department spokesman confirmed Tuesday.
A videotape made widely available to the news media on Tuesday shows the bright objects, some sharp points of light and others like large headlights, moving rapidly in what appears to be a late-evening sky.
The lights were filmed on March 5 by pilots using infrared equipment. They appeared to be flying at an altitude of about 3,500 meters (11,480 feet), and allegedly surrounded the Air Force jet as it conducted routine anti-drug trafficking vigilance in Campeche. Only three of the objects showed up on the plane's radar.
``Was I afraid? Yes. A little afraid because we were facing something that had never happened before,'' said radar operator Lt. German Marin in a taped interview made public Tuesday.
``I couldn't say what it was ... but I think they're completely real,'' added Lt. Mario Adrian Vazquez, the infrared equipment operator. Vazquez insisted that there was no way to alter the recorded images.
The plane's captain, Maj. Magdaleno Castanon, said the military jets chased the lights ``and I believe they could feel we were pursuing them.''
When the jets stopped following the objects, they disappeared, he said.
A Defense Department spokesman confirmed Tuesday that the videotape was filmed by members of the Mexican Air Force. The spokesman declined to comment further and spoke on customary condition of anonymity.
The video was first aired on national television Monday night then again at a news conference Tuesday by Jaime Maussan, a Mexican investigator who has dedicated the past 10 years to studying UFOs.
``This is historic news,'' Maussan told reporters. ``Hundreds of videos (of UFOs) exist, but none had the backing of the armed forces of any country. ... The armed forces don't perpetuate frauds.''
Maussan said Secretary of Defense Gen. Ricardo Vega Garcia gave him the video on April 22.
---------------------
MEXICAN RESEARCHER AND JOURNALIST JAIME MAUSSAN'S PRESS BRIEFING, MEXICO CITY, 5/12/2004:
Following yesterday’s news story about the sighting of eleven UFOs by a Mexican Military aircraft, the Mexican Department of Defense - under Secretary of Defense General Clemente Vega Garcia, commander of all armed forces in the country – have taken the unprecedented step of publically confirming the incident. The press conference took place at the Hotel Sevilla Palace in Mexico city and international media representatives were invited.
JAIME MAUSSAN'S PRESS BRIEFING DOCUMENT:
THE FACTS: On April 20, 2004 Jaime Maussan was contacted by a high officer of the Department of Defense to have a private meeting and discuss a subject of a high relevant matter. The next day Maussan met General Clemente Vega Garcia, Secretary of Defense and his major staff and was informed about an incident that took place on March 5, 2004 on the aerial space of Ciudad del Carmen, Campeche where an Air Force Merlín C26A Bimotor airplane was doing a routine flight to detect a smuggling drug airplane during an ant-narcotics operation.
The Merlin C26A was equipped with a high tech advanced digital equipment to register and record all the activities during the operation. Powerful sensor detectors like a FLIR STAR ZAPPHIR II and a RADAR AN/PS 143 BRAVO VICTOR 3 were being used by qualified personal aboard the airplane and all the operation was being recorded both in normal and infrared mode. The airplane was under the command of Mayor Magdaleno Jasso Núñez.
The FLIR operator was Lt. Mario Adrián Vázquez and the RADAR operator Lt. German Ramirez, all of them members of the 501 Aerial Squadron. This airplane is programmed only for surveillance and detection procedures, not for interception or combat manouvres. Their duty is to detect and identify drug dealers flights and then immediately report them to the base where combat planes are scrambled to intercept those narcotics smugglers. At approximately 17:00 PM the Merlin C26A detected an unknown traffic at 10,500 feet over Ciudad del Carmen, Campeche airspace and according to the protocol and suspecting a drug dealer airplane Mayor Magdaleno Jasso made a maneuver to approach the unidentified traffic at certain range to get a close look and record the target with their equipment.
At the same time Mayor Jasso reported by radio to the base that a possible suspect was detected requesting the interceptor planes to be in alert condition. The RADAR AN/PS 143 BRAVO VICTOR 3 was detecting the unknown traffic and the FLIR STAR ZAPPHIR II was recording the object in infrared. As the Merlin C26A tried to approach the unknown traffic to make a visual identification it suddenly in a surprising maneuver escaped flying away at tremendous speed.
By this time Mayor Jasso tried to persecute the target but it was very fast. All this was being recorded by the FLAIR and also the radio conversations with the base describing the unexpected maneuver of the unknown. However the C26A still have not made visual contact with the unknown object. Just some moments passed when suddenly the unknown object returned and began following the Merlin C26A in a surprising situation.
This was detected by the RADAR and the FLIR while the personal aboard were trying to make visual contact of the unidentified traffic now following them. In seconds the equipment detected now not only one but two traffics following them. The images in both RADAR and the FLIR were clear and unmistakable. But both pilot and personal still couldn’t have visual contact with these two traffics following them adding a great suspense to this disconcerting situation. Mayor Magdaleno Jasso reported to the base the incident that was taking place giving detail of all the information registered by the equipment while keep trying to make visual contact of the unknowns. The FLIR kept recording in infrared every movement made by the two unknown objects that seemed to be keeping their distance from the C26A but still following it. The personal aboard the Merlin C26A were confused and disconcerted seeing the images on the FLIR and the RADAR asking themselves what was going on with this situation.
THE INCIDENT TURNS MORE DRAMATIC
But the stressing moment that the C26A crew were passing through was just the beginning of something more dramatic that will turn their undesirable experience into a real nightmare. Some minutes passed while the Mexican Air Force Merlin C26A crew continued making maneuvers to have a visual contact of the unknowns because despite both RADAR and FLIR were showing perfectly clear both unidentified objects for unexplained reasons there was not a visual contact even that the objects by this time were at close range. It was during this round and round maneuvers to identify these two objects that something amazing happened. In a matter of seconds more unknown objects arrived to the scene and the disconcert of the C26A crew was total.
The RADAR and the FLIR detected immediately the presence of nine new objects of the same size and characteristics, unknown objects that arrived to the scene surprisingly like coming from nowhere.
Now the situation has entered into a high level of danger so Mayor Magdaleno Jasso reported by radio to the base this new situation requesting instructions. But the most bizarre thing was that even though there were eleven unknown objects close to them, still the crew couldn’t see them, no visual contact with the unknowns was possible for some reason never experienced before by these high trained men. However the high tech sophisticated equipment and sensors were not lying, there were eleven targets outside them with unpredictable intentions.
At the middle of a complete confusion and disconcert among the C26A crew the unknown objects suddenly made a maneuver surrounding the Mexican Air Force airplane in a circle at close range. The RADAR and FLIR presented an image of an eleven objects near by in a circle formation around the Merlin C26A. The situation turned out of control. Mayor Magdaleno Jasso reported to the base that the C26A situation was now in red alert, surrounded by eleven mysterious round shaped objects camouflaged with a certain unknown advanced technology that avoid any visual contact of them.
However Mayor Jasso kept the calm as well as the crew who were working fast measuring and recording every detail of this unique incident conscientious of their duty as military and trained men. Confronting this situation surrounded by unidentified objects in an unpredictable ending Mayor Magdaleno Jasso took the decision of turning out all the airplane lights and wait to see what happened. Moments of high suspense lived by the crew while the FLIR was recording the images of those bright objects even that visual contact was not possible, moments of silence and uncertainty.
The C26A crew kept calmed doing their duty, documenting every moment of the strange incident while Mayor Jasso continued in contact with the base. After some stressing minutes the eleven objects disappeared giving an end to the strange experience that these members of the 501 Aerial Squadron just lived. The Merlin C26A returned safe to the Air Force Base and Mayor Magdaleno Jasso prepared a complete report of the incident along with the C26A crew. The Secretary of the Defense took notice of Mayor Jasso's report and began a full investigation studying and evaluating every element of the case.
Statements of the crew, images, lectures, measurements of all the equipment as well as a complete evaluation of the meteorological data . The incident was taken very seriously by the Department of Defense Staff and after several weeks of investigation they decided under the command of General Clemente Vega Garcia to contact researcher and TV journalist Jaime Maussan for a special collaboration in this investigation as an experienced researcher in these matters. On April 22, 2004 General Clemente Vega, Secretary of Defense gave Jaime Maussan a copy of all the tapes and data collected by the Merlin C26A during the incident for study, evaluation and analysis by Maussan's research team as complement of this investigation and as an external collaborating source trying to establish a definition of the possible motives and consequences of the March 5, 2004 incident.
General Vega as well as his staff were very open to discuss the subject and showed their legitimate interest in conducting this investigation in order to establish the truth of what happened. General Vega authorized the Merlin C26A crew to give Jaime Maussan the interviews needed without any censorship, giving all the facilities to present this case to the Mexican people, an historic and unprecedented decision that will open a new era of mutual collaboration among the Mexican ufologists and the military forces, a collaboration based in respect and interest to find the truth of the intense UFO activity we have been experiencing here in Mexico since the beginning of the Amazing Mexican UFO Wave back in July 11, 1991.
This new era of relationship among the Mexican UFO witnesses, skywatchers, ufologists and our military forces will try to establish and give form to a new legislation in our law system focused to be prepared for any incident involving these unidentified flying objects, our people, our commercial and military airplanes etc. for learning and understanding what are we going to do and how are we going to confront this reality.
---------------------------------
Note that this was confirmed by multiple witnesses, and was recorded by the armed forces, who usually "don't perpetuate frauds" .
Well? Is that good enough?
- Gehn
Edit: More Pics!!!
QUOTE (Gehn+Nov 26 2007, 04:06 PM)
Well, anything for brownies !
Well? Is that good enough?
- Gehn
Here's something for everyone...
Russian UFO footage
There are 2 major errors in this tale. Both of them can be deduced simply by watching the video.
More brownies for anyone else who sees them
!Well? Is that good enough?
- Gehn
Here's something for everyone...
Russian UFO footage
There are 2 major errors in this tale. Both of them can be deduced simply by watching the video.
More brownies for anyone else who sees them
Hi All,
When I replied to this thread and took the pro alien side of this debate, I purposely ignored stories such as this, Roswell and other incidents. History is replete with such unexplained sightings and yet nothing has been resolved. I downloaded the unclassified Project Blue Book PDF files, they are loaded with similar stories. These are too easy to debunk.
Unidentified flying objects are just that, unidentified.
BDW,
I have been waiting for you to complete your thoughts on the previous posts. While I have done not much more than mine the 'net,( which any idiot could do), I have yet to actually debate your points. Here's another anomaly for you to ponder.
http://world-mysteries.com/sar_1.htm
"Further and more accurate studies have proven that the last period of ice-free condition in the Antarctic ended about 6000 years ago. There are still doubts about the beginning of this ice-free period, which has been put by different researchers everything between year 13000 and 9000 BC.
The question is: Who mapped the Queen Maud Land of Antarctic 6000 years ago? Which unknown civilization had the technology or the need to do that?"
When I replied to this thread and took the pro alien side of this debate, I purposely ignored stories such as this, Roswell and other incidents. History is replete with such unexplained sightings and yet nothing has been resolved. I downloaded the unclassified Project Blue Book PDF files, they are loaded with similar stories. These are too easy to debunk.
Unidentified flying objects are just that, unidentified.
BDW,
I have been waiting for you to complete your thoughts on the previous posts. While I have done not much more than mine the 'net,( which any idiot could do), I have yet to actually debate your points. Here's another anomaly for you to ponder.
http://world-mysteries.com/sar_1.htm
"Further and more accurate studies have proven that the last period of ice-free condition in the Antarctic ended about 6000 years ago. There are still doubts about the beginning of this ice-free period, which has been put by different researchers everything between year 13000 and 9000 BC.
The question is: Who mapped the Queen Maud Land of Antarctic 6000 years ago? Which unknown civilization had the technology or the need to do that?"
Ill put in a couple pennies to this thread. I had never heard of this one before, although Im a little ignorant of some of the subject matter in this link. This one comes courtesy of our palsie Mirrorman(aka aAzzAa) so take it for what its worth.
Merkaba, Hitler, And Ufo's
Personally, I put this in the file of "beyond stupid", but what do I know. PT Barnum had a lot more money than me.
Merkaba, Hitler, And Ufo's
Personally, I put this in the file of "beyond stupid", but what do I know. PT Barnum had a lot more money than me.
QUOTE ("THEY"+Nov 26 2007, 08:50 PM)
Well, I think this forum needs something more light hearted than what seems to be going on... So I will make a challenge to those who posted in the past, and the watchers to become involved.
Does anyone have pictures of UFOs that are considered real or possibilities? I wish there were pictures of the O'Hare airport incident........ Brownies for any new fun ones... Call it a scavenger hunt.
Im in Chicago, although Im sorry to say I have no first hand sighting of the incident, nor have I actually spoken with anyone who saw it first hand. (cut me some slack, theres like 5 million people around here.) But I do understand that "it" punched a hole in the clouds, and from what I have heard(2nd hand) it looked something like this:
Does anyone have pictures of UFOs that are considered real or possibilities? I wish there were pictures of the O'Hare airport incident........ Brownies for any new fun ones...
Call it a scavenger hunt.Im in Chicago, although Im sorry to say I have no first hand sighting of the incident, nor have I actually spoken with anyone who saw it first hand. (cut me some slack, theres like 5 million people around here.) But I do understand that "it" punched a hole in the clouds, and from what I have heard(2nd hand) it looked something like this:
QUOTE (occidental+Nov 26 2007, 09:27 PM)
Ill put in a couple pennies to this thread. I had never heard of this one before, although Im a little ignorant of some of the subject matter in this link. This one comes courtesy of our palsie Mirrorman(aka aAzzAa) so take it for what its worth.
Merkaba, Hitler, And Ufo's
Personally, I put this in the file of "beyond stupid", but what do I know. PT Barnum had a lot more money than me.
I tend to agree with your classification of that post. Anyone who believes in the sort of conspiracies as these is missing one clear piece of logical thought:
Why?
Why would our governments hide such developments, when making them known would put whatever government came public with it in the good graces of every person on earth?
Why would differing governments on earth, spending money year after year on their military not want to see the lowering of hostilities that would come when humanity knew that there were other races in the galaxy?
Why would such governments not have done everything in their power to secure the FTL propulsion source that aliens visiting earth would need, in an attempt to achieve the mining of asteroids and the colonization and possible terraforming of mars, thus making whichever governments had such technology the richest governments in the world? (and before anyone points out the riches of the US government, keep in mind that our government is rich because it's citizens are rich, and so pay much more taxes than other people.)
If aliens have visited earth, they have most certainly NOT done so in any official capacity, as far as we are concerned. They have only come, observed (perhaps tested, but not likely) and left.
Merkaba, Hitler, And Ufo's
Personally, I put this in the file of "beyond stupid", but what do I know. PT Barnum had a lot more money than me.
I tend to agree with your classification of that post. Anyone who believes in the sort of conspiracies as these is missing one clear piece of logical thought:
Why?
Why would our governments hide such developments, when making them known would put whatever government came public with it in the good graces of every person on earth?
Why would differing governments on earth, spending money year after year on their military not want to see the lowering of hostilities that would come when humanity knew that there were other races in the galaxy?
Why would such governments not have done everything in their power to secure the FTL propulsion source that aliens visiting earth would need, in an attempt to achieve the mining of asteroids and the colonization and possible terraforming of mars, thus making whichever governments had such technology the richest governments in the world? (and before anyone points out the riches of the US government, keep in mind that our government is rich because it's citizens are rich, and so pay much more taxes than other people.)
If aliens have visited earth, they have most certainly NOT done so in any official capacity, as far as we are concerned. They have only come, observed (perhaps tested, but not likely) and left.
Gehn, that was a great (although long) story, haven't heard that one before. Very interesting.
BDW, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.................. fishy?
xtrmin8r, haven't read your link yet, will soon. Looks like it deserves some research.
occidental, that pic was GREAT!
So to all,
Got milk?
BDW, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.................. fishy?
xtrmin8r, haven't read your link yet, will soon. Looks like it deserves some research.
occidental, that pic was GREAT!
So to all,
Got milk?
BigDumbWeirdo Posted on 11/27/07 at 10:11 AM
Now we're getting into serious conspiracy theories!! Illuminati, anyone?
Governments are not in control! And the powers that be don't want the competition.
QUOTE
Why would our governments hide such developments, when making them known would put whatever government came public with it in the good graces of every person on earth?
Now we're getting into serious conspiracy theories!! Illuminati, anyone?
Governments are not in control!
And the powers that be don't want the competition. QUOTE (xtrmn8r+Nov 26 2007, 09:16 PM)
BDW,
I have been waiting for you to complete your thoughts on the previous posts. While I have done not much more than mine the 'net,( which any idiot could do), I have yet to actually debate your points.
You're right. I'll try to get on that tomorrow, and finish what I started. I'm looking forward to an actual debate over it.
The Piri Reis map! Hehe, I'd hoped that's what it was about just from reading your post.
Higher Resolution Version
The Piri Reis map does show a large, southern landmass that bears a striking resemblance to the antartic landmass. However, it bears a much stronger resemblance to the southernmost area of South America. Simply "bend" the continent around an invisible pole set about halfway up the eastern coast of Argentina. Check it out for yourself, compare the coastline on the map with the coastline of Argentina. Even the Falklands appear, along with the notation "Here, spring comes early." which is true of the Falklands.
And that's it. That's my whole rebuttal to that article. I'm pretty sure Wikipedia says the same thing somewhere in the article about it.
X, I'm gonna add something either tonight or tomorrow on your side of the debate. Hope you don't mind (I like switching sides. Makes me feel devious )
I have been waiting for you to complete your thoughts on the previous posts. While I have done not much more than mine the 'net,( which any idiot could do), I have yet to actually debate your points.
You're right. I'll try to get on that tomorrow, and finish what I started. I'm looking forward to an actual debate over it.
QUOTE
The Piri Reis map! Hehe, I'd hoped that's what it was about just from reading your post.
Higher Resolution Version
The Piri Reis map does show a large, southern landmass that bears a striking resemblance to the antartic landmass. However, it bears a much stronger resemblance to the southernmost area of South America. Simply "bend" the continent around an invisible pole set about halfway up the eastern coast of Argentina. Check it out for yourself, compare the coastline on the map with the coastline of Argentina. Even the Falklands appear, along with the notation "Here, spring comes early." which is true of the Falklands.
And that's it. That's my whole rebuttal to that article. I'm pretty sure Wikipedia says the same thing somewhere in the article about it.
X, I'm gonna add something either tonight or tomorrow on your side of the debate. Hope you don't mind (I like switching sides. Makes me feel devious
)
QUOTE (xtrmn8r+Nov 28 2007, 12:34 AM)
BigDumbWeirdo Posted on 11/27/07 at 10:11 AM
Now we're getting into serious conspiracy theories!! Illuminati, anyone?
Governments are not in control! And the powers that be don't want the competition.
Not just illuminati, but Merkaba Powered Nazi Illuminati UFO's. Im not making this stuff up(but I think someone is).
Now we're getting into serious conspiracy theories!! Illuminati, anyone?
Governments are not in control!
And the powers that be don't want the competition. Not just illuminati, but Merkaba Powered Nazi Illuminati UFO's. Im not making this stuff up(but I think someone is).
QUOTE (xtrmn8r+Nov 16 2007, 07:00 PM)
Mohenjo Daro – Civil Engineering By Will Hart & Robert Berringer
"Since indoor plumbing did not arrive in modern societies to any extent until the 20th century, and urban planning has still not been adopted much to this date in history, what we find in the ancient city of Mohenjo Daro is anomalous indeed...
Ok, Here we go. My response to the Mohenjo-Daro portion of your post. (weeks overdue, but I can sometimes be a busy man:D )
I'll start by answering the two questions posed in your excerpt:
Why does there need to be a steady progression of development? Humanity was possessed of all the intelligence, creativity and desire for order when this city was built that it has now. There is no need for a steady development of urban development, social and technical organization. There is nothing to stop a primitive man from looking at a pair of stone buildings and thinking "How much simpler could life be if we built a hundred such buildings on a pattern, then filled them with the chieftains of various tribes and those others needed to support them? We could organize the entire Indus Valley with such a thing! I think I'll call it a Shitty, since there will be so much of the stuff in the gutters...." Time passes, and we have the invention of the city.
Why does there need to be a steady progression of development? Humanity was possessed of all the intelligence, creativity and desire for order when this city was built that it has now. There is no need for a steady development of urban development, social and technical organization. There is nothing to stop a primitive man from looking at a pair of stone buildings and thinking "How much simpler could life be if we built a hundred such buildings on a pattern, then filled them with the chieftains of various tribes and those others needed to support them? We could organize the entire Indus Valley with such a thing! I think I'll call it a Shitty, since there will be so much of the stuff in the gutters...." Time passes, and we have the invention of the city.
2. How do you explain the sudden emergence of a complex society when 99.99% of the rest of humanity were living primitively?
Once again, I ask why any sort of progression is needed. Could not the most powerful leader of the most powerful tribe in the region have forced other tribes to his side, then organized their leaders into a government? Of course, I should also point out that at the time of the building of this city, the Indus valley contained more than 0.01% of humanity, so to ask that question in and of itself is a deception on the part of your source. In fact, it would be a safe assumption if one assumed the Indus valley contained at least 10% of humanity, which is 1,000 times more people than suggested in the question.
One last point in response to both questions is this.... The Indus valley civilization is not the first civilization, as suggested by your source. There were other, equally advanced civilizations who pre-date the founding of Mohenjo-Daro by many many years.
That whole section is more whiny than analytical. To put your trust in an article that must criticize mainstream science to add credence to it's own claims is..... Not a good thing, to say the least.
That whole section is more whiny than analytical. To put your trust in an article that must criticize mainstream science to add credence to it's own claims is..... Not a good thing, to say the least.
Extraordinarily little is known about the Indus Valley civilisation that once spanned nearly a thousand miles with other cities matching the description of Mohenjo Daro.
Just plain wrong.
Wikipedia - Indus valley Civilization ( I just love wikipedia:D )
And that's just the main page. There are dozens of links that lead to specific topics throughout that page. And even when taken all together, that's just the wikipedia entry. What archaeologists know about this civilization is far, far more than what is presented on this site.
Well, much is known, but ok, I'll accept as fact the incorrect portion of this statement for the purpose of responding to it. If we know so little, then the mystery is patent, and likely easily explained. We don't know that there wasn't a steady progression of technology and civilization. So therefore, logic dictates that such a civilization arose in the same manner as every other civilization!
Well, much is known, but ok, I'll accept as fact the incorrect portion of this statement for the purpose of responding to it. If we know so little, then the mystery is patent, and likely easily explained. We don't know that there wasn't a steady progression of technology and civilization. So therefore, logic dictates that such a civilization arose in the same manner as every other civilization!
Civil engineers do not crawl out of thatched-roof huts able to draw up plans for a complex urban environment.
Yes, they do. They use two things that all humans have. Creativity and Intelligence. (Ok, well, most humans have them...)
X, I want to point out again that any sarcasm isn't directed at your, just your position.
"Since indoor plumbing did not arrive in modern societies to any extent until the 20th century, and urban planning has still not been adopted much to this date in history, what we find in the ancient city of Mohenjo Daro is anomalous indeed...
Ok, Here we go. My response to the Mohenjo-Daro portion of your post. (weeks overdue, but I can sometimes be a busy man:D )
I'll start by answering the two questions posed in your excerpt:
QUOTE
1. Where are the cities that demonstrate the path of urban development, social and technical organisation, leading to Mohenjo Daro?
Why does there need to be a steady progression of development? Humanity was possessed of all the intelligence, creativity and desire for order when this city was built that it has now. There is no need for a steady development of urban development, social and technical organization. There is nothing to stop a primitive man from looking at a pair of stone buildings and thinking "How much simpler could life be if we built a hundred such buildings on a pattern, then filled them with the chieftains of various tribes and those others needed to support them? We could organize the entire Indus Valley with such a thing! I think I'll call it a Shitty, since there will be so much of the stuff in the gutters...." Time passes, and we have the invention of the city.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| 1. Where are the cities that demonstrate the path of urban development, social and technical organisation, leading to Mohenjo Daro? |
Why does there need to be a steady progression of development? Humanity was possessed of all the intelligence, creativity and desire for order when this city was built that it has now. There is no need for a steady development of urban development, social and technical organization. There is nothing to stop a primitive man from looking at a pair of stone buildings and thinking "How much simpler could life be if we built a hundred such buildings on a pattern, then filled them with the chieftains of various tribes and those others needed to support them? We could organize the entire Indus Valley with such a thing! I think I'll call it a Shitty, since there will be so much of the stuff in the gutters...." Time passes, and we have the invention of the city.
2. How do you explain the sudden emergence of a complex society when 99.99% of the rest of humanity were living primitively?
Once again, I ask why any sort of progression is needed. Could not the most powerful leader of the most powerful tribe in the region have forced other tribes to his side, then organized their leaders into a government? Of course, I should also point out that at the time of the building of this city, the Indus valley contained more than 0.01% of humanity, so to ask that question in and of itself is a deception on the part of your source. In fact, it would be a safe assumption if one assumed the Indus valley contained at least 10% of humanity, which is 1,000 times more people than suggested in the question.
One last point in response to both questions is this.... The Indus valley civilization is not the first civilization, as suggested by your source. There were other, equally advanced civilizations who pre-date the founding of Mohenjo-Daro by many many years.
QUOTE
These issues cannot be brushed aside with some arrogant pretence that the questions have already been addressed and answered by digging up and labelling pottery shards and other artefacts. We have been and are being overly indulgent with our “soft sciences” regarding their cavalier assertions about having all the answers. In fact, they have very few, so why are they throwing stones at independent researchers from behind glass towers?
That whole section is more whiny than analytical. To put your trust in an article that must criticize mainstream science to add credence to it's own claims is..... Not a good thing, to say the least.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| These issues cannot be brushed aside with some arrogant pretence that the questions have already been addressed and answered by digging up and labelling pottery shards and other artefacts. We have been and are being overly indulgent with our “soft sciences” regarding their cavalier assertions about having all the answers. In fact, they have very few, so why are they throwing stones at independent researchers from behind glass towers? |
That whole section is more whiny than analytical. To put your trust in an article that must criticize mainstream science to add credence to it's own claims is..... Not a good thing, to say the least.
Extraordinarily little is known about the Indus Valley civilisation that once spanned nearly a thousand miles with other cities matching the description of Mohenjo Daro.
Just plain wrong.
Wikipedia - Indus valley Civilization ( I just love wikipedia:D )
And that's just the main page. There are dozens of links that lead to specific topics throughout that page. And even when taken all together, that's just the wikipedia entry. What archaeologists know about this civilization is far, far more than what is presented on this site.
QUOTE
We should wonder how an ancient culture of which nothing is known, not even their language, created this sophisticated city at a point in time many thousands of years ahead of the curve?
Well, much is known, but ok, I'll accept as fact the incorrect portion of this statement for the purpose of responding to it. If we know so little, then the mystery is patent, and likely easily explained. We don't know that there wasn't a steady progression of technology and civilization. So therefore, logic dictates that such a civilization arose in the same manner as every other civilization!
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| We should wonder how an ancient culture of which nothing is known, not even their language, created this sophisticated city at a point in time many thousands of years ahead of the curve? |
Well, much is known, but ok, I'll accept as fact the incorrect portion of this statement for the purpose of responding to it. If we know so little, then the mystery is patent, and likely easily explained. We don't know that there wasn't a steady progression of technology and civilization. So therefore, logic dictates that such a civilization arose in the same manner as every other civilization!
Civil engineers do not crawl out of thatched-roof huts able to draw up plans for a complex urban environment.
Yes, they do. They use two things that all humans have. Creativity and Intelligence. (Ok, well, most humans have them...)
X, I want to point out again that any sarcasm isn't directed at your, just your position.
Ok, here's the post I made a vague reference to last night....
For anyone who's interested in such things as aliens and ancient civilizations....
Start researching Quetzalcoatl. Read more than the Wiki article on him. In fact, try to find archeological papers on finds that reference him, and look at the description of his human form.
When you think you might have seen something fishy... Check out the Pahana, from Hopi mythology.
WARNING: This is (as far as I know, I may be wrong) a REAL mystery. It's not invented by hoaxters or conspiracy theorists or alien abductees... The mysteries mentioned are real archeological, mythological puzzles. Factor in just a hint of the Mayan Long count, and you've got the workings of something that might actually be something similar to what the conspiracy theorists have been claiming for so long. I strongly doubt that there's any extraterrestrial or magical explanation for anything I've mentioned, but one never truly knows. So check it out. Here, I'll get you started.
Google - Mayan "White Bearded" Search Results
For anyone who's interested in such things as aliens and ancient civilizations....
Start researching Quetzalcoatl. Read more than the Wiki article on him. In fact, try to find archeological papers on finds that reference him, and look at the description of his human form.
When you think you might have seen something fishy... Check out the Pahana, from Hopi mythology.
WARNING: This is (as far as I know, I may be wrong) a REAL mystery. It's not invented by hoaxters or conspiracy theorists or alien abductees... The mysteries mentioned are real archeological, mythological puzzles. Factor in just a hint of the Mayan Long count, and you've got the workings of something that might actually be something similar to what the conspiracy theorists have been claiming for so long. I strongly doubt that there's any extraterrestrial or magical explanation for anything I've mentioned, but one never truly knows. So check it out. Here, I'll get you started.
Google - Mayan "White Bearded" Search Results
Hopi and Mayan white gods? Now we are getting into "age of the aquarius" type stuff... I don't think that has as much to do with aliens as it does prove that current humanity is NOT the only technologically civilized humans, and civilizations ebb and flow with the ages. I probably won't have time to participate much (boss is gone for two weeks), but it will be interesting to watch. Start talking sphynxes, Atlanta, Mayan calendar and "the ages"!
QUOTE ("THEY"+Nov 28 2007, 09:58 PM)
Hopi and Mayan white gods? Now we are getting into "age of the aquarius" type stuff... I don't think that has as much to do with aliens as it does prove that current humanity is NOT the only technologically civilized humans, and civilizations ebb and flow with the ages. I probably won't have time to participate much (boss is gone for two weeks), but it will be interesting to watch. Start talking sphynxes, Atlanta, Mayan calendar and "the ages"!
I've been to Atlanta- it was nice.
I've been to Atlanta- it was nice.
Speaking of aliens, Bigfoot and other such creepy things, I just found out a great ghost story:
This happened in Brisbane and even though it sounds like an Alfred Hitchcock tale, it's true.
John Bradford, a Sydney University student, was hitch hiking on a very dark night and in a very heavy rainstorm. No cars went by. The storm was so strong he could hardly see a few feet ahead of him.
Suddenly he saw something slowly coming up behind him. It was so difficult to see anything, that he didn't realize it was a car until it was right next to him. Gratefully, he jumped inside, and pulled the door shut. It wasn't until the car began moving again that he realized there was nobody behind the wheel and the engine wasn't running.
The car rolled slowly along. John fearfully looked at the road ahead and saw a sharp bend looming up. He started to pray, begging for his life. The rain was coming even harder now. Zero visibility and the car was picking up speed. His prayers were answered. Just before the curve, a hand appeared through the open window and turned the wheel.
John kept praying and, paralyzed with terror, saw how the helping hand would reappear whenever the car came to a curve.
Finally the car began to slow down. John could barely make out the lights of a pub ahead. Shivering with fright about his experience, he jumped out and ran into the pub.
Wet and out of breath, he rushed inside and asked for two shots of tequila. He then started telling everybody about the ghostly events he had just gone through. The pub went totally silent as everybody realized he was crying yet he certainly wasn't drunk.
Then two men walked into the pub. They were also very wet and exhausted. Looking around and seeing John sobbing at the bar, one said to the other, 'Look, Bruce, there's the ***!ng idiot who got in the car while we were pushing it.'
- Gehn
This happened in Brisbane and even though it sounds like an Alfred Hitchcock tale, it's true.
John Bradford, a Sydney University student, was hitch hiking on a very dark night and in a very heavy rainstorm. No cars went by. The storm was so strong he could hardly see a few feet ahead of him.
Suddenly he saw something slowly coming up behind him. It was so difficult to see anything, that he didn't realize it was a car until it was right next to him. Gratefully, he jumped inside, and pulled the door shut. It wasn't until the car began moving again that he realized there was nobody behind the wheel and the engine wasn't running.
The car rolled slowly along. John fearfully looked at the road ahead and saw a sharp bend looming up. He started to pray, begging for his life. The rain was coming even harder now. Zero visibility and the car was picking up speed. His prayers were answered. Just before the curve, a hand appeared through the open window and turned the wheel.
John kept praying and, paralyzed with terror, saw how the helping hand would reappear whenever the car came to a curve.
Finally the car began to slow down. John could barely make out the lights of a pub ahead. Shivering with fright about his experience, he jumped out and ran into the pub.
Wet and out of breath, he rushed inside and asked for two shots of tequila. He then started telling everybody about the ghostly events he had just gone through. The pub went totally silent as everybody realized he was crying yet he certainly wasn't drunk.
Then two men walked into the pub. They were also very wet and exhausted. Looking around and seeing John sobbing at the bar, one said to the other, 'Look, Bruce, there's the ***!ng idiot who got in the car while we were pushing it.'
- Gehn
Gehn, heard that one before! But still good!
occidental - would LOVE to hear about your time in Atlanta, but I DID mean AtlantIS......... shame on me for being in a hurry.
And now, onto what I came here to say. If we are going to talk about ancient civilization, in the early 90s I read a short article in National Geographic that a square room had been found under the feet of the sphynx using ultrasound. Around 2000 I heard that the Egyptian government had decided against excavating yet. But moving backwards, Edgar Cayce predicted there would be a room that wound be found under the sphynx that would prove the existence of Atlantis, and would change modern technology........
I am out of time, running very late! But would love to talk about that one too...
occidental - would LOVE to hear about your time in Atlanta, but I DID mean AtlantIS......... shame on me for being in a hurry.
And now, onto what I came here to say. If we are going to talk about ancient civilization, in the early 90s I read a short article in National Geographic that a square room had been found under the feet of the sphynx using ultrasound. Around 2000 I heard that the Egyptian government had decided against excavating yet. But moving backwards, Edgar Cayce predicted there would be a room that wound be found under the sphynx that would prove the existence of Atlantis, and would change modern technology........
I am out of time, running very late! But would love to talk about that one too...
Hi "THEY", BigDumbWeirdo, Gehn,occidental, et al,
I don't have much time right now, gotta work for a living. , but will bring up a couple more thoughts.
I haven't gotten to South America yet where mysteries abound, from the Nazca Plain lines and pictographs which can only be discerned from the air. To Teotihuacan , where mica is found in sheets buried within the structures which doesn't seem to have any purpose but to shield the structure from....(?).
"Another fascinating feature of some of the pyramidal structures is that they contain a broad, thick layer of mica, which had to be brought from Brazil, over 2000 miles away! Mica is very flaky and fragile, yet it was brought in very large pieces from great distances (and without wheeled vehicles). Then the mica was used on an inner layer of the pyramid, not where it could be seen. Why? One characteristic of mica is that it is used as an insulator in electronic and electrical things. Was that its purpose here? Another mystery of Teotihuacan."
http://www.world-mysteries.com/mpl_7.htm
There is another curiosity regarding the Americas that has had me thinking. If ancient migration was across the Bering Strait, why is there no monoliths or ziggarats in North America? One would think that if civilization migrated south, then ruins should run north to south not south to north.(?)
Gotta go. I will have more time to actually debate this weekend.
I don't have much time right now, gotta work for a living.
, but will bring up a couple more thoughts.I haven't gotten to South America yet where mysteries abound, from the Nazca Plain lines and pictographs which can only be discerned from the air. To Teotihuacan , where mica is found in sheets buried within the structures which doesn't seem to have any purpose but to shield the structure from....(?).
"Another fascinating feature of some of the pyramidal structures is that they contain a broad, thick layer of mica, which had to be brought from Brazil, over 2000 miles away! Mica is very flaky and fragile, yet it was brought in very large pieces from great distances (and without wheeled vehicles). Then the mica was used on an inner layer of the pyramid, not where it could be seen. Why? One characteristic of mica is that it is used as an insulator in electronic and electrical things. Was that its purpose here? Another mystery of Teotihuacan."
http://www.world-mysteries.com/mpl_7.htm
There is another curiosity regarding the Americas that has had me thinking. If ancient migration was across the Bering Strait, why is there no monoliths or ziggarats in North America? One would think that if civilization migrated south, then ruins should run north to south not south to north.(?)
Gotta go. I will have more time to actually debate this weekend.
Hi xtrmn8r-
I dont have a direct answer for that question, but I will recommend what I consider an outstanding book on a similar subject. "1491" by Charles C Mann explores what the Americas was like before disease wiped out the majority of the population. The Aztec capital of Tenochtitlan, for example, had running water and clean streets, an amazing feat that rivaled any European city of the time. Check it out, you might really enjoy the book.
I dont have a direct answer for that question, but I will recommend what I consider an outstanding book on a similar subject. "1491" by Charles C Mann explores what the Americas was like before disease wiped out the majority of the population. The Aztec capital of Tenochtitlan, for example, had running water and clean streets, an amazing feat that rivaled any European city of the time. Check it out, you might really enjoy the book.