Sergeant...
"Alrighty there maggots. I am Drill Sergeant Degraves and I've killed and eaten more aliens for breakfast then the sorry lot of you have ever even seen. We gonna have ourselves a little interactive military exercise that I like to call "I win, you lose maggots". What I'm gonna do is propose a number of attack scenarios based on what we figure will be alien technology if they were ahead of us by 200 years and really really stupid. What I mean is that these there aliens are looking for a stand up fight, not just nukin us from orbit. They are coming here and they are going to try to take over our stinkin planet for some weird reason known only to alien scum like them. What you maggots are goin to try to do is defeat them by tellin me how you are gonna counter my brilliant and evil schemes. YOU GOT THAT?"
"YES DRILL SERGEANT!"
OK.. this is a wager between me and Mjolnirpants though I expect a few people to chime in. If you are a nut... it's best if you keep out of it.
Here are the rules.
I will attack and he (or anyone else) defends. My contention is that an alien attack could not be defeated.
Here are some agreed to parameters.
Tech = approximately 200 years ahead of us.
They don't want to level the planet.
They want a stand up fight. Not to say they won't use space but they don't want to nuke us from orbit either.
They only have weapons that we can all agree are possible according to currently known laws of physics.
All arguments must be based on sound physical and military principles.
All tactics and weapons must be consistent and in keeping with the stated assumptions, including the assumption about their motivations, and the assumptions that the latest in existing military tech would be disseminated among the various military fighting the invaders
No new technologies would be developed during the war.
OK.. next post will be my attack.
QUICK! Send a few ICBMs into orbit to blow up their mothership!
(Hehe, Interception...)
Don't let this stop you. Reprogramming and retrofitting an ICBM to attack an orbital target isn't something to be done in an afternoon, so it's not a serious suggestion.
(Hehe, Interception...)
Don't let this stop you. Reprogramming and retrofitting an ICBM to attack an orbital target isn't something to be done in an afternoon, so it's not a serious suggestion.
Alright...opening salvo.
About 1000 large spaceships come into view once they pass the orbit of Mars. Before that they are simply not visible to Earth based telescopes, even though they are quite large. These are generation ships with about a million or so dedicated warrior aliens bent on galactic conquest. About 1000 aliens a ship with a complete environment on board. Of course the ship are laden with weapons, shops, etc.
The first thing they do is to establish a high orbit around the Earth and destroy all satellites and space stations. This I assume they could do easily. Then, spreading out around the planet they set up observation stations (detached from the main ships) in order to track and destroy anything coming up to high orbit automatically. This is something we could likely do ourselves if we wanted ... something the Star Wars program is counting on.
Something being launched into high orbit would be easily tracked and easily destroyed by ... let's say ... large space based lasers.
OK... boom...now you have no satellites and no space going facility. Your turn.
About 1000 large spaceships come into view once they pass the orbit of Mars. Before that they are simply not visible to Earth based telescopes, even though they are quite large. These are generation ships with about a million or so dedicated warrior aliens bent on galactic conquest. About 1000 aliens a ship with a complete environment on board. Of course the ship are laden with weapons, shops, etc.
The first thing they do is to establish a high orbit around the Earth and destroy all satellites and space stations. This I assume they could do easily. Then, spreading out around the planet they set up observation stations (detached from the main ships) in order to track and destroy anything coming up to high orbit automatically. This is something we could likely do ourselves if we wanted ... something the Star Wars program is counting on.
Something being launched into high orbit would be easily tracked and easily destroyed by ... let's say ... large space based lasers.
OK... boom...now you have no satellites and no space going facility. Your turn.
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Jul 14 2009, 11:10 AM)
About 1000 large spaceships come into view once they pass the orbit of Mars. Before that they are simply not visible to Earth based telescopes, even though they are quite large. These are generation ships with about a million or so dedicated warrior aliens bent on galactic conquest. About 1000 aliens a ship with a complete environment on board. Of course the ship are laden with weapons, shops, etc.
The first thing they do is to establish a high orbit around the Earth and destroy all satellites and space stations. This I assume they could do easily. Then, spreading out around the planet they set up observation stations (detached from the main ships) in order to track and destroy anything coming up to high orbit automatically. This is something we could likely do ourselves if we wanted ... something the Star Wars program is counting on.
Something being launched into high orbit would be easily tracked and easily destroyed by ... let's say ... large space based lasers.
OK... boom...now you have no satellites and no space going facility. Your turn.
Give them internet access.
They should leave Earth within a week.
The first thing they do is to establish a high orbit around the Earth and destroy all satellites and space stations. This I assume they could do easily. Then, spreading out around the planet they set up observation stations (detached from the main ships) in order to track and destroy anything coming up to high orbit automatically. This is something we could likely do ourselves if we wanted ... something the Star Wars program is counting on.
Something being launched into high orbit would be easily tracked and easily destroyed by ... let's say ... large space based lasers.
OK... boom...now you have no satellites and no space going facility. Your turn.
Give them internet access.
They should leave Earth within a week.
The aliens are given internet access. They find out that we spend most of it looking at naked pictures of other humans, arguing with idiots or trying to find out what Paris Hilton is currently thinking.
They laugh.
Then order a full scale attack. "DESTROY ALL HUMANS"
They laugh.
Then order a full scale attack. "DESTROY ALL HUMANS"
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Jul 14 2009, 11:22 AM)
The aliens are given internet access. They find out that we spend most of it looking at naked pictures of other humans, arguing with idiots or trying to find out what Paris Hilton is currently thinking.
They laugh.
Then order a full scale attack. "DESTROY ALL HUMANS"
We use an Apple laptop to "upload" a "virus" in order to "infect" the alien "computers".
If that fails, we activate the particle cannon and start firing with our nuke-loaded railguns.
They laugh.
Then order a full scale attack. "DESTROY ALL HUMANS"
We use an Apple laptop to "upload" a "virus" in order to "infect" the alien "computers".
If that fails, we activate the particle cannon and start firing with our nuke-loaded railguns.
Ahem... the op states...
No new technologies would be developed during the war.
Those are the rules maggots... now shape up and fly straight or it's the hose for you.
You don't have access to their network based on the fact that they don't speak English.... and you don't speak Alien.
You don't have access to their network based on the fact that they don't speak English.... and you don't speak Alien.
If that fails, we activate the particle cannon and start firing with our nuke-loaded railguns.
We have those? Damn.
Either way.. the nukes are easily visible from space. They are all shot down. To celebrate the aliens eat a few rednecks they captured on earlier visits.
QUOTE
All arguments must be based on sound physical and military principles.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| All arguments must be based on sound physical and military principles. |
No new technologies would be developed during the war.
Those are the rules maggots... now shape up and fly straight or it's the hose for you.
QUOTE
We use an Apple laptop to "upload" a "virus" in order to "infect" the alien "computers".
You don't have access to their network based on the fact that they don't speak English.... and you don't speak Alien.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| We use an Apple laptop to "upload" a "virus" in order to "infect" the alien "computers". |
You don't have access to their network based on the fact that they don't speak English.... and you don't speak Alien.
If that fails, we activate the particle cannon and start firing with our nuke-loaded railguns.
We have those? Damn.
Either way.. the nukes are easily visible from space. They are all shot down. To celebrate the aliens eat a few rednecks they captured on earlier visits.
Oops.
Ok then, let me revise my last statement. (the apple laptop virus thing was an Independence Day reference)
We do indeed have railguns, and we have nukes.
If we use railguns to fire the nukes, they will be traveling too fast to be shot down with projectiles.
We have already created a 10.6 megajoules railgun that fires projectiles at 7 times the speed of sound.
Navy Tests Railgun
This railgun would be a slightly modified one. This railgun would fire nuclear devices that detonate upon impact. The nukes have a reflective coating that would reflect or scatter most wavelengths of electromagnetic energy and are spherical in shape. (see: mirrors, Radar-Absorbant-Material, lead, etc)
Any attempts to shoot it down with a self-propelled interception device would fail because of the vast speed and the stealthy nature of the nuke projectiles. Using a form of laser would fail because of the reflective/absorbent/scatter coating. In addition, the railguns would be configured to fire multiple payloads at once, in order to overwhelm the alien defense mechanisms.
20 such installations worldwide open fire on the observation stations first, and the nukes would be triggered to detonate early, so that the EM pulse can do damage to the station's sensors. The next wave would go right through the EM screen and destroy the stations.
Without observation stations, the motherships are open to attack
Ok then, let me revise my last statement. (the apple laptop virus thing was an Independence Day reference)
We do indeed have railguns, and we have nukes.
If we use railguns to fire the nukes, they will be traveling too fast to be shot down with projectiles.
We have already created a 10.6 megajoules railgun that fires projectiles at 7 times the speed of sound.
Navy Tests Railgun
This railgun would be a slightly modified one. This railgun would fire nuclear devices that detonate upon impact. The nukes have a reflective coating that would reflect or scatter most wavelengths of electromagnetic energy and are spherical in shape. (see: mirrors, Radar-Absorbant-Material, lead, etc)
Any attempts to shoot it down with a self-propelled interception device would fail because of the vast speed and the stealthy nature of the nuke projectiles. Using a form of laser would fail because of the reflective/absorbent/scatter coating. In addition, the railguns would be configured to fire multiple payloads at once, in order to overwhelm the alien defense mechanisms.
20 such installations worldwide open fire on the observation stations first, and the nukes would be triggered to detonate early, so that the EM pulse can do damage to the station's sensors. The next wave would go right through the EM screen and destroy the stations.
Without observation stations, the motherships are open to attack
Ok, assuming no FTL capabilities or inertial dampeners, we can give a generous estimate of their velocity at the time of detection you provided to be 0.25c.
The maximum deceleration sustainable by a human would be about 9 G's. Let's say these aliens can withstand 10, and their ships are built to handle it.
So we do a bit of math and conclude that it will take just under 9 days for them to arrive in orbit, decelerating at a rate of 10 G's from the time they pass Mars to the time they arrive.
This time gives us plenty of time (militarily speaking) to prepare. Since military leaderships are by their very nature, overly concerned with preparations and possibilities, you would see an almost immediate alliance between the developed nations, and an almost immediate deployment of ground based systems to replace the space based systems which we would likely loose right off the bat.
The aliens of course, do not disappoint, destroying all space assets. However, the extent of the effect of that is that we loose space-based surveillance and GPS capapbilities. We retain orbital tracking and global real-time communications.
The initial step would be to begin outfitting those ICBM's I mentioned earlier at the first sign of the aliens, just in case. By the time they proved their intents to be hostile, the missiles should be ready for launch, and would be launched.
As a rule, they would be mostly ineffective, per your space based lasers, but logistically speaking, no attack tends to be entirely ineffective. ICBMs are designed to have small radar signatures, meaning it would be somewhat difficult for even an advanced military to track them. So can we agree that out of the 1000 targets fired against, 50 are destroyed and 100 are damaged? (I say all the ships are targeted because we wouldn't really know what was an observation ship and what was an attack vessel, so we'd just target everything. Enough ICBM's could be modified to do this in the time given, as each one could have a separate team working on it.)
flyingbuttressman's suggestion is appealing, as it involved adapting current technology, however I don't think it's feasible so early in the war. I would imagine the technique could not be perfected for at least a year or two, so I'm sticking with my retrofitted, reprogrammed nuclear ICBMs.
The maximum deceleration sustainable by a human would be about 9 G's. Let's say these aliens can withstand 10, and their ships are built to handle it.
So we do a bit of math and conclude that it will take just under 9 days for them to arrive in orbit, decelerating at a rate of 10 G's from the time they pass Mars to the time they arrive.
This time gives us plenty of time (militarily speaking) to prepare. Since military leaderships are by their very nature, overly concerned with preparations and possibilities, you would see an almost immediate alliance between the developed nations, and an almost immediate deployment of ground based systems to replace the space based systems which we would likely loose right off the bat.
The aliens of course, do not disappoint, destroying all space assets. However, the extent of the effect of that is that we loose space-based surveillance and GPS capapbilities. We retain orbital tracking and global real-time communications.
The initial step would be to begin outfitting those ICBM's I mentioned earlier at the first sign of the aliens, just in case. By the time they proved their intents to be hostile, the missiles should be ready for launch, and would be launched.
As a rule, they would be mostly ineffective, per your space based lasers, but logistically speaking, no attack tends to be entirely ineffective. ICBMs are designed to have small radar signatures, meaning it would be somewhat difficult for even an advanced military to track them. So can we agree that out of the 1000 targets fired against, 50 are destroyed and 100 are damaged? (I say all the ships are targeted because we wouldn't really know what was an observation ship and what was an attack vessel, so we'd just target everything. Enough ICBM's could be modified to do this in the time given, as each one could have a separate team working on it.)
flyingbuttressman's suggestion is appealing, as it involved adapting current technology, however I don't think it's feasible so early in the war. I would imagine the technique could not be perfected for at least a year or two, so I'm sticking with my retrofitted, reprogrammed nuclear ICBMs.
My other idea was to threaten to nuke ourselves, since we have that capability. If they aliens want our natural resources, we can deprive them of that. Literally, Scorched Earth. Of course, the point is that it is a threat, and we wouldn't do it unless things went really bad. The aliens probably need the resources to survive, so we make a deal in which we resupply them. Based on your estimate of a million aliens, we should be able to supply them with whatever they need.
To tell you the truth, I'm not sure what the purpose of the conquest could be unless they really need some rare element that they use for fuel. In that case, it would suck to have to mine a radioactive Earth.
To tell you the truth, I'm not sure what the purpose of the conquest could be unless they really need some rare element that they use for fuel. In that case, it would suck to have to mine a radioactive Earth.
Meanwhile, SIGINT units around the world would be scanning for and jamming alien radio communications, developing nations would be joining in the alliance at a slow but fairly steady rate, and more nuclear ICBM's would be modified to continue the assault, at a regular rate, however I'm willing to concede that after the initial volley, they would be next to useless, destroying perhaps 0.01% of targets and damaging 0.02%.
Militaries would be deploying around the round, minus national defense units which would likely be deployed within their own countries to bolster police forces working to quell the civil unrest that would surely ensue. Production of military equipment would skyrocket almost overnight, and the dissemination of military technologies would begin, equipping and training the forces of developing nations.
Militaries would be deploying around the round, minus national defense units which would likely be deployed within their own countries to bolster police forces working to quell the civil unrest that would surely ensue. Production of military equipment would skyrocket almost overnight, and the dissemination of military technologies would begin, equipping and training the forces of developing nations.
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+)
To tell you the truth, I'm not sure what the purpose of the conquest could be unless they really need some rare element that they use for fuel. In that case, it would suck to have to mine a radioactive Earth.
Their motivations are that they're space vikings. They're Klingons, looking for a good fight, and they figured we could give them one. A global "Sampson Protocol" (see Israeli nuclear reports for an explanation, it's basically a "we'll nuke ourselves before we let you conquer us." strategy) wouldn't deter them at all.
Their motivations are that they're space vikings. They're Klingons, looking for a good fight, and they figured we could give them one. A global "Sampson Protocol" (see Israeli nuclear reports for an explanation, it's basically a "we'll nuke ourselves before we let you conquer us." strategy) wouldn't deter them at all.
QUOTE (MjolnirPants+Jul 14 2009, 12:12 PM)
Their motivations are that they're space vikings. They're Klingons, looking for a good fight, and they figured we could give them one. A global "Sampson Protocol" (see Israeli nuclear reports for an explanation, it's basically a "we'll nuke ourselves before we let you conquer us." strategy) wouldn't deter them at all.
I'm not sure that Vikings or Klingons are really in it just for the fight. The Vikings pillaged, but they used the spoils to build up their civilization. The Klingons were based on the WWII Empire of Japan, which only attacked the USA over SE Asia resources.
Also, I'm sure that said aliens would have advanced laser technology coupled with infrared scanning abilities. Since ICBM's are rocket-powered, I don't think it would be too hard to locate and destroy them. That said, MIRV's with mirror-coated rocket vehicles might be more effective.
Since the existence of the Navy's Railgun is public knowledge, it might be safe to assume that the research is further along than the Navy's PR people say it is.
I'm not sure that Vikings or Klingons are really in it just for the fight. The Vikings pillaged, but they used the spoils to build up their civilization. The Klingons were based on the WWII Empire of Japan, which only attacked the USA over SE Asia resources.
Also, I'm sure that said aliens would have advanced laser technology coupled with infrared scanning abilities. Since ICBM's are rocket-powered, I don't think it would be too hard to locate and destroy them. That said, MIRV's with mirror-coated rocket vehicles might be more effective.
Since the existence of the Navy's Railgun is public knowledge, it might be safe to assume that the research is further along than the Navy's PR people say it is.
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Jul 14 2009, 12:20 PM)
I'm not sure that Vikings or Klingons are really in it just for the fight. The Vikings pillaged, but they used the spoils to build up their civilization. The Klingons were based on the WWII Empire of Japan, which only attacked the USA over SE Asia resources.
Well, to the vikings it was a religious matter. The only way into Valhalla was to die in combat, after having proven yourself (and with a touch of luck). Sure, they weren't averse to profiting from their religious beliefs, but it would not be unusual to find a gang of vikings sailing about, looking for a fight.
As for the Klingons, well, they're fictional. Yes, they were absolutely based on the Japanese, but they've since been potrayed as having a similar religion to the Vikings.
MIRV's are good for blasting huge areas of land, or targeting multiple targets with a single missile, but they all ride up in the same rocket, so they're not providing that much of an advantage until the last seconds, at which point it's probably too late.
Infrared is great, except that most infrared light sources have a high falloff. Infrared is great for seeing people through walls from a couple dozen to a couple hundred feet away. It's not so great for detecting a rocket several miles away. Besides, most of the exhaust heat would be obscured from the alien's POV by the body of the missile. I agree with you on the reflective coating, though. From what I've read, such is already fairly standard on ICBMs, to prevent our enemies from adopting our new tactic of shooting them down with aircraft-based lasers.
MIRV's are good for blasting huge areas of land, or targeting multiple targets with a single missile, but they all ride up in the same rocket, so they're not providing that much of an advantage until the last seconds, at which point it's probably too late.
Infrared is great, except that most infrared light sources have a high falloff. Infrared is great for seeing people through walls from a couple dozen to a couple hundred feet away. It's not so great for detecting a rocket several miles away. Besides, most of the exhaust heat would be obscured from the alien's POV by the body of the missile. I agree with you on the reflective coating, though. From what I've read, such is already fairly standard on ICBMs, to prevent our enemies from adopting our new tactic of shooting them down with aircraft-based lasers.
Since the existence of the Navy's Railgun is public knowledge, it might be safe to assume that the research is further along than the Navy's PR people say it is.
This is a good point, however I can't prevent Rob from speculating about what may be possible, all the while I speculate about what technology we may have. It's just not a fair debating tactic.
Well, to the vikings it was a religious matter. The only way into Valhalla was to die in combat, after having proven yourself (and with a touch of luck). Sure, they weren't averse to profiting from their religious beliefs, but it would not be unusual to find a gang of vikings sailing about, looking for a fight.
As for the Klingons, well, they're fictional. Yes, they were absolutely based on the Japanese, but they've since been potrayed as having a similar religion to the Vikings.
QUOTE
Also, I'm sure that said aliens would have advanced laser technology coupled with infrared scanning abilities. Since ICBM's are rocket-powered, I don't think it would be too hard to locate and destroy them. That said, MIRV's with mirror-coated rocket vehicles might be more effective.
MIRV's are good for blasting huge areas of land, or targeting multiple targets with a single missile, but they all ride up in the same rocket, so they're not providing that much of an advantage until the last seconds, at which point it's probably too late.
Infrared is great, except that most infrared light sources have a high falloff. Infrared is great for seeing people through walls from a couple dozen to a couple hundred feet away. It's not so great for detecting a rocket several miles away. Besides, most of the exhaust heat would be obscured from the alien's POV by the body of the missile. I agree with you on the reflective coating, though. From what I've read, such is already fairly standard on ICBMs, to prevent our enemies from adopting our new tactic of shooting them down with aircraft-based lasers.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Also, I'm sure that said aliens would have advanced laser technology coupled with infrared scanning abilities. Since ICBM's are rocket-powered, I don't think it would be too hard to locate and destroy them. That said, MIRV's with mirror-coated rocket vehicles might be more effective. |
MIRV's are good for blasting huge areas of land, or targeting multiple targets with a single missile, but they all ride up in the same rocket, so they're not providing that much of an advantage until the last seconds, at which point it's probably too late.
Infrared is great, except that most infrared light sources have a high falloff. Infrared is great for seeing people through walls from a couple dozen to a couple hundred feet away. It's not so great for detecting a rocket several miles away. Besides, most of the exhaust heat would be obscured from the alien's POV by the body of the missile. I agree with you on the reflective coating, though. From what I've read, such is already fairly standard on ICBMs, to prevent our enemies from adopting our new tactic of shooting them down with aircraft-based lasers.
Since the existence of the Navy's Railgun is public knowledge, it might be safe to assume that the research is further along than the Navy's PR people say it is.
This is a good point, however I can't prevent Rob from speculating about what may be possible, all the while I speculate about what technology we may have. It's just not a fair debating tactic.
QUOTE (MjolnirPants+Jul 14 2009, 12:54 PM)
MIRV's are good for blasting huge areas of land, or targeting multiple targets with a single missile, but they all ride up in the same rocket, so they're not providing that much of an advantage until the last seconds, at which point it's probably too late.
I'm pretty sure that MIRV's were also designed so that missile-based point-defense systems (eg Patriot missiles) would have a hard time targeting multiple vehicles. Also, it wouldn't be too hard to set up the missiles with "Panic" mode, which deploys the independent vehicles as soon as enemy defenses are detected. This way, you could wait until the alien kill vehicles have been launched before presenting multiple targets.
Rocket vehicles leave a trail of hot gas, I'm sure it would be visible.
I'm still liking the idea of creating a nuclear EM screen, which would blind the aliens to incoming missiles. Mix that with some computer-assisted random thruster firing, and you could avoid being targeted.
I'm pretty sure that MIRV's were also designed so that missile-based point-defense systems (eg Patriot missiles) would have a hard time targeting multiple vehicles. Also, it wouldn't be too hard to set up the missiles with "Panic" mode, which deploys the independent vehicles as soon as enemy defenses are detected. This way, you could wait until the alien kill vehicles have been launched before presenting multiple targets.
QUOTE
Infrared is great, except that most infrared light sources have a high falloff. Infrared is great for seeing people through walls from a couple dozen to a couple hundred feet away. It's not so great for detecting a rocket several miles away. Besides, most of the exhaust heat would be obscured from the alien's POV by the body of the missile.
Rocket vehicles leave a trail of hot gas, I'm sure it would be visible.
I'm still liking the idea of creating a nuclear EM screen, which would blind the aliens to incoming missiles. Mix that with some computer-assisted random thruster firing, and you could avoid being targeted.
OK... a couple of replies.
1.
OK... first of all I don't think it's possible to keep a rocket invisible all the way to high orbit. Note that I said high orbit not low.... let's say 30 000 km up (like a geostationary satellite). I could be wrong but I don't see any rocket getting there in less than an hour. Plenty of time to shoot it down.
Making a rocket reflective would make it proof vs lasers but would make it far more visible. At that point, any other kill option would be easy to implement. Kinetic kill or ppc... maybe even just ecm... though I think that option is less likely.
MRV's would not be terribly useful as they would have to deploy either early, in which case they would not have enough fuel to reach... or late, in which case the rocket would likely be destroyed already.
OK... first of all I don't think it's possible to keep a rocket invisible all the way to high orbit. Note that I said high orbit not low.... let's say 30 000 km up (like a geostationary satellite). I could be wrong but I don't see any rocket getting there in less than an hour. Plenty of time to shoot it down.
Making a rocket reflective would make it proof vs lasers but would make it far more visible. At that point, any other kill option would be easy to implement. Kinetic kill or ppc... maybe even just ecm... though I think that option is less likely.
MRV's would not be terribly useful as they would have to deploy either early, in which case they would not have enough fuel to reach... or late, in which case the rocket would likely be destroyed already.
I'm still liking the idea of creating a nuclear EM screen, which would blind the aliens to incoming missiles
Unlikely to affect anything that high up.
OK.. next
The motivation of the aliens is... alien.
They just want to conquer us... just cause. My wife thought that the "Predator" from the movie from the same name would be a good example. They didn't want to conquer though... just hunt.
Lastly...
Assuming that each missile would only be seen head on maybe. However, that is unlikely, especially if you count the fact that the alien fleet is spread out in geostationary orbits. They would get multiple points of view.
Anyhoo...
Assuming that each missile would only be seen head on maybe. However, that is unlikely, especially if you count the fact that the alien fleet is spread out in geostationary orbits. They would get multiple points of view.
Anyhoo...
however I'm willing to concede that after the initial volley, they would be next to useless, destroying perhaps 0.01% of targets and damaging 0.02%.
I think we can assume that the aliens control space... shall I continue or are there more objections I can shoot down..
Get it?
1.
QUOTE
Rocket vehicles leave a trail of hot gas, I'm sure it would be visible.
OK... first of all I don't think it's possible to keep a rocket invisible all the way to high orbit. Note that I said high orbit not low.... let's say 30 000 km up (like a geostationary satellite). I could be wrong but I don't see any rocket getting there in less than an hour. Plenty of time to shoot it down.
Making a rocket reflective would make it proof vs lasers but would make it far more visible. At that point, any other kill option would be easy to implement. Kinetic kill or ppc... maybe even just ecm... though I think that option is less likely.
MRV's would not be terribly useful as they would have to deploy either early, in which case they would not have enough fuel to reach... or late, in which case the rocket would likely be destroyed already.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Rocket vehicles leave a trail of hot gas, I'm sure it would be visible. |
OK... first of all I don't think it's possible to keep a rocket invisible all the way to high orbit. Note that I said high orbit not low.... let's say 30 000 km up (like a geostationary satellite). I could be wrong but I don't see any rocket getting there in less than an hour. Plenty of time to shoot it down.
Making a rocket reflective would make it proof vs lasers but would make it far more visible. At that point, any other kill option would be easy to implement. Kinetic kill or ppc... maybe even just ecm... though I think that option is less likely.
MRV's would not be terribly useful as they would have to deploy either early, in which case they would not have enough fuel to reach... or late, in which case the rocket would likely be destroyed already.
I'm still liking the idea of creating a nuclear EM screen, which would blind the aliens to incoming missiles
Unlikely to affect anything that high up.
OK.. next
The motivation of the aliens is... alien.
They just want to conquer us... just cause. My wife thought that the "Predator" from the movie from the same name would be a good example. They didn't want to conquer though... just hunt.
Lastly...
QUOTE
Besides, most of the exhaust heat would be obscured from the alien's POV by the body of the missile.
Assuming that each missile would only be seen head on maybe. However, that is unlikely, especially if you count the fact that the alien fleet is spread out in geostationary orbits. They would get multiple points of view.
Anyhoo...
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Besides, most of the exhaust heat would be obscured from the alien's POV by the body of the missile. |
Assuming that each missile would only be seen head on maybe. However, that is unlikely, especially if you count the fact that the alien fleet is spread out in geostationary orbits. They would get multiple points of view.
Anyhoo...
however I'm willing to concede that after the initial volley, they would be next to useless, destroying perhaps 0.01% of targets and damaging 0.02%.
I think we can assume that the aliens control space... shall I continue or are there more objections I can shoot down..
Get it?
We will cede control of space without a fight. What's the next step?
Well, if they want to conquer us, they're going to have to control us. If there's only a million of them, and six billion of us, they might have a problem. Orbital lasers and infrared tracking systems are not going to be all that useful once the aliens are on the ground.
QUOTE (AlexG+Jul 14 2009, 02:05 PM)
Well, if they want to conquer us, they're going to have to control us. If there's only a million of them, and six billion of us, they might have a problem. Orbital lasers and infrared tracking systems are not going to be all that useful once the aliens are on the ground.
Wait, why don't we just set off a whole crapload of nukes as close to the alien ships as possible. Maybe we can kill them with radiation. We have the Ozone, they don't.
Wait, why don't we just set off a whole crapload of nukes as close to the alien ships as possible. Maybe we can kill them with radiation. We have the Ozone, they don't.
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Jul 14 2009, 01:04 PM)
I'm pretty sure that MIRV's were also designed so that missile-based point-defense systems (eg Patriot missiles) would have a hard time targeting multiple vehicles. Also, it wouldn't be too hard to set up the missiles with "Panic" mode, which deploys the independent vehicles as soon as enemy defenses are detected. This way, you could wait until the alien kill vehicles have been launched before presenting multiple targets.
Yes, but the reentry vehicles lack sufficient fuel to accomplish this. The sort of modifications needed to correct this issue would not be feasible in 9 days.
Yes, it would likely be noticeable, if not readily identifiable.
Yes, it would likely be noticeable, if not readily identifiable.
OK... first of all I don't think it's possible to keep a rocket invisible all the way to high orbit. Note that I said high orbit not low.... let's say 30 000 km up (like a geostationary satellite). I could be wrong but I don't see any rocket getting there in less than an hour. Plenty of time to shoot it down.
You don't need to keep it invisible all the way. An ICBM's name is a bit of a misnomer these days: According to many sources I've read, modern intercontinental missiles are capable of evasive maneuvers. This would drastically reduce the effectiveness of laser defenses and targeting systems.
Yes, the mirror coating would make many of the rockets more visible to visible light detection systems. It would also make them less visible in some cases, however.
Switching takedown methods from lasers to KEWs or ECM (the missiles would be shielded heavily against this obvious weakness, and so it's not likely to be effective) would take a small amount of time, and require a demonstration or foreknowledge of the ineffectiveness of the lasers. Plus, KEWs or any other ballistic weapons would have to account for leading, making targeting that much more difficult.
Yes, the mirror coating would make many of the rockets more visible to visible light detection systems. It would also make them less visible in some cases, however.
Switching takedown methods from lasers to KEWs or ECM (the missiles would be shielded heavily against this obvious weakness, and so it's not likely to be effective) would take a small amount of time, and require a demonstration or foreknowledge of the ineffectiveness of the lasers. Plus, KEWs or any other ballistic weapons would have to account for leading, making targeting that much more difficult.
Assuming that each missile would only be seen head on maybe. However, that is unlikely, especially if you count the fact that the alien fleet is spread out in geostationary orbits. They would get multiple points of view.
This is not likely, given the distances required between such observation points at the altitude and numbers you mentioned. The best vantage point for IR detection would be the targeted ship, which would suffer this disadvantage. Radar tracking would be the best option, and as I already mentioned, ICBM's have a very small radar signature.
Yes, we can. I doubt such a missile strike would severely cripple the alien fleet or end the invasion, and restore human space supremacy.
As I said, I don't picture a nuclear missile attack as being particularly effective. I think the 15% strike rate and 5% kill rate would be due to the difficulties you, flyingbuttressman and I have been discussing. If those difficulties were non-existent, there would -of course- be a 98 or 99% kill rate.
I agree that most of the missiles would be shot down, and a few would just miss or be dodged by the alien spaceship. But I cannot dismiss the notion that some would get through, and a 15% estimate seems perfectly reasonable to me.
I think the low effectiveness of subsequent strikes (which would now be expected by the aliens, who now have experience dealing with them) is low enough not to consider, even though realistically a few would likely get through, due to various logistical reasons. We can assume the followup strikes to be completely ineffective for all intents and purposes.
Yes, but the reentry vehicles lack sufficient fuel to accomplish this. The sort of modifications needed to correct this issue would not be feasible in 9 days.
QUOTE
Rocket vehicles leave a trail of hot gas, I'm sure it would be visible.
Yes, it would likely be noticeable, if not readily identifiable.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Rocket vehicles leave a trail of hot gas, I'm sure it would be visible. |
Yes, it would likely be noticeable, if not readily identifiable.
OK... first of all I don't think it's possible to keep a rocket invisible all the way to high orbit. Note that I said high orbit not low.... let's say 30 000 km up (like a geostationary satellite). I could be wrong but I don't see any rocket getting there in less than an hour. Plenty of time to shoot it down.
You don't need to keep it invisible all the way. An ICBM's name is a bit of a misnomer these days: According to many sources I've read, modern intercontinental missiles are capable of evasive maneuvers. This would drastically reduce the effectiveness of laser defenses and targeting systems.
QUOTE
Making a rocket reflective would make it proof vs lasers but would make it far more visible. At that point, any other kill option would be easy to implement. Kinetic kill or ppc... maybe even just ecm... though I think that option is less likely.
Yes, the mirror coating would make many of the rockets more visible to visible light detection systems. It would also make them less visible in some cases, however.
Switching takedown methods from lasers to KEWs or ECM (the missiles would be shielded heavily against this obvious weakness, and so it's not likely to be effective) would take a small amount of time, and require a demonstration or foreknowledge of the ineffectiveness of the lasers. Plus, KEWs or any other ballistic weapons would have to account for leading, making targeting that much more difficult.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Making a rocket reflective would make it proof vs lasers but would make it far more visible. At that point, any other kill option would be easy to implement. Kinetic kill or ppc... maybe even just ecm... though I think that option is less likely. |
Yes, the mirror coating would make many of the rockets more visible to visible light detection systems. It would also make them less visible in some cases, however.
Switching takedown methods from lasers to KEWs or ECM (the missiles would be shielded heavily against this obvious weakness, and so it's not likely to be effective) would take a small amount of time, and require a demonstration or foreknowledge of the ineffectiveness of the lasers. Plus, KEWs or any other ballistic weapons would have to account for leading, making targeting that much more difficult.
Assuming that each missile would only be seen head on maybe. However, that is unlikely, especially if you count the fact that the alien fleet is spread out in geostationary orbits. They would get multiple points of view.
This is not likely, given the distances required between such observation points at the altitude and numbers you mentioned. The best vantage point for IR detection would be the targeted ship, which would suffer this disadvantage. Radar tracking would be the best option, and as I already mentioned, ICBM's have a very small radar signature.
QUOTE
I think we can assume that the aliens control space... shall I continue or are there more objections I can shoot down..
Yes, we can. I doubt such a missile strike would severely cripple the alien fleet or end the invasion, and restore human space supremacy.
As I said, I don't picture a nuclear missile attack as being particularly effective. I think the 15% strike rate and 5% kill rate would be due to the difficulties you, flyingbuttressman and I have been discussing. If those difficulties were non-existent, there would -of course- be a 98 or 99% kill rate.
I agree that most of the missiles would be shot down, and a few would just miss or be dodged by the alien spaceship. But I cannot dismiss the notion that some would get through, and a 15% estimate seems perfectly reasonable to me.
I think the low effectiveness of subsequent strikes (which would now be expected by the aliens, who now have experience dealing with them) is low enough not to consider, even though realistically a few would likely get through, due to various logistical reasons. We can assume the followup strikes to be completely ineffective for all intents and purposes.
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Jul 14 2009, 02:08 PM)
Wait, why don't we just set off a whole crapload of nukes as close to the alien ships as possible. Maybe we can kill them with radiation. We have the Ozone, they don't.
I don't think we could prep enough nukes in time to make that feasible.
But I'm ready to move on. The aliens have lost about 5% of their fleet and suffered damage to another 10%, but they've gained space superiority. What's their next move?
Earth's next move would be to consolidate forces at strategic areas to prepare for the possibility of a combined tactics invasion, then wait to see the proverbial whites of their eyes.
I don't think we could prep enough nukes in time to make that feasible.
But I'm ready to move on. The aliens have lost about 5% of their fleet and suffered damage to another 10%, but they've gained space superiority. What's their next move?
Earth's next move would be to consolidate forces at strategic areas to prepare for the possibility of a combined tactics invasion, then wait to see the proverbial whites of their eyes.
Alright maggots. You conceded that space is lost. At least you got some brains ... you graduate from maggots to scum.
Alright scum... ready for the next step?
*Meanwhile in space... aliens are toasting their victory by pulling Paris Hilton apart in a symbolic gesture to our cultural icons.... so it's not all bad news*
Alright scum... ready for the next step?
*Meanwhile in space... aliens are toasting their victory by pulling Paris Hilton apart in a symbolic gesture to our cultural icons.... so it's not all bad news*
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Jul 14 2009, 02:35 PM)
Alright maggots. You conceded that space is lost. At least you got some brains ... you graduate from maggots to scum.
Alright scum... ready for the next step?
*Meanwhile in space... aliens are toasting their victory by pulling Paris Hilton apart in a symbolic gesture to our cultural icons.... so it's not all bad news*
I would recommend arming B2 bombers with tactical air-to-air nukes and conventional air-to-air missiles and have them fly at high altitude. If and when the invaders feel like entering the atmosphere, we will shoot them down. (nukes are for big landing craft, conventional weapons are for smaller ones)
Bombers, combined with SAM batteries, should keep the aliens from entering the atmosphere.
Alright scum... ready for the next step?
*Meanwhile in space... aliens are toasting their victory by pulling Paris Hilton apart in a symbolic gesture to our cultural icons.... so it's not all bad news*
I would recommend arming B2 bombers with tactical air-to-air nukes and conventional air-to-air missiles and have them fly at high altitude. If and when the invaders feel like entering the atmosphere, we will shoot them down. (nukes are for big landing craft, conventional weapons are for smaller ones)
Bombers, combined with SAM batteries, should keep the aliens from entering the atmosphere.
Annnnd.... that brings us to phase two.
1. From geostationary orbit the aliens.. we will call them.. Degravians... spend the first month establishing full surveillance of our activities... identifying threats, vulnerabilities.. etc.
2. Powerful lasers shoot down anything flying... planes, balloons, etc.
3. Kinetic weapons.. ie big rocks... are diverted towards the Earth and aimed only at nuclear bunkers. All other military installations will be left intact.... for reasons that will be obvious later.
4. Powerful lasers now aim at the electrical infrastructure. Knocking down power in all cities.
5. Aliens prepare for the next step... full combat invasion.
1. From geostationary orbit the aliens.. we will call them.. Degravians... spend the first month establishing full surveillance of our activities... identifying threats, vulnerabilities.. etc.
2. Powerful lasers shoot down anything flying... planes, balloons, etc.
3. Kinetic weapons.. ie big rocks... are diverted towards the Earth and aimed only at nuclear bunkers. All other military installations will be left intact.... for reasons that will be obvious later.
4. Powerful lasers now aim at the electrical infrastructure. Knocking down power in all cities.
5. Aliens prepare for the next step... full combat invasion.
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Jul 14 2009, 03:56 PM)
Annnnd.... that brings us to phase two.
1. From geostationary orbit the aliens.. we will call them.. Degravians... spend the first month establishing full surveillance of our activities... identifying threats, vulnerabilities.. etc.
2. Powerful lasers shoot down anything flying... planes, balloons, etc.
3. Kinetic weapons.. ie big rocks... are diverted towards the Earth and aimed only at nuclear bunkers. All other military installations will be left intact.... for reasons that will be obvious later.
4. Powerful lasers now aim at the electrical infrastructure. Knocking down power in all cities.
5. Aliens prepare for the next step... full combat invasion.
Because the Russians are brilliant, most of their nuke arsenal lives on trains throughout Siberia. These nukes survive, as do the nukes aboard our 'Boomer' submarines. The aliens also fail to take out many of our hidden and less than obvious bunkers.
Cloud cover makes shooting down airplanes difficult. Those airplanes that survive learn to take cover beneath the clouds.
During that month, laboratories across the globe come up with a functional railgun design that should be able to hit low-Earth-orbit spacecraft. (we already have a functional weapon, the only step remaining is scale) Production begins.
Mass production also begins on portable surface based air superiority weapons: drones, AA guns, etc.
All production takes place underneath major cities, and power is generated from petroleum reserves and below-the-surface power lines continue to deliver power to cities.
Observatories examine the hulls of the spacecraft and determines the most likely targets for EM warfare.
1. From geostationary orbit the aliens.. we will call them.. Degravians... spend the first month establishing full surveillance of our activities... identifying threats, vulnerabilities.. etc.
2. Powerful lasers shoot down anything flying... planes, balloons, etc.
3. Kinetic weapons.. ie big rocks... are diverted towards the Earth and aimed only at nuclear bunkers. All other military installations will be left intact.... for reasons that will be obvious later.
4. Powerful lasers now aim at the electrical infrastructure. Knocking down power in all cities.
5. Aliens prepare for the next step... full combat invasion.
Because the Russians are brilliant, most of their nuke arsenal lives on trains throughout Siberia. These nukes survive, as do the nukes aboard our 'Boomer' submarines. The aliens also fail to take out many of our hidden and less than obvious bunkers.
Cloud cover makes shooting down airplanes difficult. Those airplanes that survive learn to take cover beneath the clouds.
During that month, laboratories across the globe come up with a functional railgun design that should be able to hit low-Earth-orbit spacecraft. (we already have a functional weapon, the only step remaining is scale) Production begins.
Mass production also begins on portable surface based air superiority weapons: drones, AA guns, etc.
All production takes place underneath major cities, and power is generated from petroleum reserves and below-the-surface power lines continue to deliver power to cities.
Observatories examine the hulls of the spacecraft and determines the most likely targets for EM warfare.
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Jul 14 2009, 03:56 PM)
Annnnd.... that brings us to phase two.
1. From geostationary orbit the aliens.. we will call them.. Degravians... spend the first month establishing full surveillance of our activities... identifying threats, vulnerabilities.. etc.
Now this presents a problem. Remember how I said that the continuing missile strikes could be ignored? If the Degravians are going to just sit there for a month, observing us, that negates that. If you figure there's 20 launches a day per missile facility, and a hundred facilities (both conservative estimates), that's about two thousand per day, and bear in mind they need not all be nuclear. Conventional weapons would also like prove effective, given the size of the ships, based off of their passenger compliment.
At a 0.01% kill rate and 0.02% hit rate, that's not worth mentioning on the scale of a few days, but over the course of a month, that's pretty much the turning point of the war, right there. You figure 50 ships gone from the initial bombardment (and 100 damaged), and an additional ship lost every five days (every 2.5 days one is damaged), for a total of 56 ships lost and 112 ships damaged. If each damaged ship lost 10% of it's crew, that's 11,200 killed on the damaged ships, and 56,000 killed on the destroyed ships.
So total losses thus far are at 67,200 and all they've done is secure control of earth orbit. 6.7% losses in the opening stages of a campaign are generally met with a reconsideration of the merits of that campaign, unless they've planned on heavy initial losses in order to secure a strong beachhead from which to launch more long-term operations. But this isn't including the establishment of a beachhead. In this case, the invaders haven't progressed beyond the declaration of war, the deployment of troops and intel gathering.
Let's say it has a 70% effective kill rate. That's okay because much of earth's nuclear armaments are no longer stored in nuclear bunkers (to be explained below), and those bunkers which contain nuclear weapons will tend to be those most well concealed, rather than the most hardened, and thus those most likely to survive this attack.
Let's say it has a 70% effective kill rate. That's okay because much of earth's nuclear armaments are no longer stored in nuclear bunkers (to be explained below), and those bunkers which contain nuclear weapons will tend to be those most well concealed, rather than the most hardened, and thus those most likely to survive this attack.
4. Powerful lasers now aim at the electrical infrastructure. Knocking down power in all cities.
5. Aliens prepare for the next step... full combat invasion.
This part doesn't fit very well with their motivations... Any "sit back and pound" strategy would likely run far against the grain of an alien race spoiling for a fight. But it's okay in the context of this chain of events, as you'll see below.
However, it is anticipated and countered by the dissemination of large generators to sensitive areas, the disguising of electrical power generation facilities and substations (which would begin very soon after initial detection), not to mention other essential facilities such as water treatment, manufacturing plants, military bases, etc. Misdirection tactics would be used to create dummy facilities for the aliens to target, some less essential facilities will be purposefully sacrificed, some essential systems will be hardened against laser strikes, forcing reliance on KEWs to take them out, thus extending their lifespan beyond what would be expected. Since as you said before, the Degravians cannot read English, I'm assuming they can't read French or Dutch or any other earth languages, their ability to determine what function many structures play would be severely hindered, allowing military manufacturing to continue pretty much uninterrupted, barring the occasional lucky strike.
I figure about 25-40% effectiveness in these strikes against the electrical infrastructure, and virtually no effect on military-required infrastructure (which is already hardened against and concealed from aerial or space bombardment).
The (limited) effectiveness of these strikes however will harden the resolve of the defenders. The Degravians have thus eliminated virtually any chance of extracting human intel from any captives, and have turned a scared and awestruck populace into an insurgency waiting to congeal, not to mention ensuring the movement of the earth from a collection of nations at war to a collection of nations in a state of total war. All earth resources are now turned towards defending the planet, putting the Degravians at a significant disadvantage in the long term.
Aaaaaand, here's the kicker...
The defenders would refrain from launching aircraft for the most part, aware of what would happen to them after the limited effectiveness of the initial nuclear assault. Those aircraft launched would use cloud cover and high speeds to avoid destruction. Military combat aircraft would be prepped and hidden in concealed and/or hardened hangers, ready to be deployed the instant any alien aircraft are detected (which would be almost the instant they are launched, thanks to orbital radar facilities). Among them are included many stealth bombers and other high altitude bomber craft armed with air-to-air missiles, retrofitted (given the month of preparation time) to attack orbital targets, so that when the landing craft and their fighter escorts are deployed, there is a convenient smoke screen from which to launch another nuclear assault, this one with far more likelihood of success, given the smaller size of the weapons and the shorter distance traveled by them. Vast numbers of tactical nukes could be launched (just imagine how many tactical nukes could be built by all the world's nations in a month, not to mention all those not used up already), following flyingbuttressman's earlier suggestion of a 'nuclear shotgun' type assault.
Thus, thanks to their overly cautious preparations for the ground invasion, they're facing a conservative 40-70% losses by the time they make a beachhead. Surrender ensues, they trade technology for resources with which to rebuild, and move on to seek a less cunning opponent.
One of the better known precepts of military planning is to never underestimate your opponent and go rushing in without proper preparations. But few people are aware that to overestimate your opponent and spend too much time getting ready can be just as dangerous.
HOWEVER!!! I don't like this ending.
Since I'm sure everyone can agree that you are no space viking (I think, I may be wrong
), we must allow that you would think in more human and practical terms than the leaders of a fanatical warrior cult of an alien species would.
Perhaps you'd like to revise your second stage?
Alternately, we can go over it and my response, piece by piece, but I'm pretty confident about this one.
1. From geostationary orbit the aliens.. we will call them.. Degravians... spend the first month establishing full surveillance of our activities... identifying threats, vulnerabilities.. etc.
Now this presents a problem. Remember how I said that the continuing missile strikes could be ignored? If the Degravians are going to just sit there for a month, observing us, that negates that. If you figure there's 20 launches a day per missile facility, and a hundred facilities (both conservative estimates), that's about two thousand per day, and bear in mind they need not all be nuclear. Conventional weapons would also like prove effective, given the size of the ships, based off of their passenger compliment.
At a 0.01% kill rate and 0.02% hit rate, that's not worth mentioning on the scale of a few days, but over the course of a month, that's pretty much the turning point of the war, right there. You figure 50 ships gone from the initial bombardment (and 100 damaged), and an additional ship lost every five days (every 2.5 days one is damaged), for a total of 56 ships lost and 112 ships damaged. If each damaged ship lost 10% of it's crew, that's 11,200 killed on the damaged ships, and 56,000 killed on the destroyed ships.
So total losses thus far are at 67,200 and all they've done is secure control of earth orbit. 6.7% losses in the opening stages of a campaign are generally met with a reconsideration of the merits of that campaign, unless they've planned on heavy initial losses in order to secure a strong beachhead from which to launch more long-term operations. But this isn't including the establishment of a beachhead. In this case, the invaders haven't progressed beyond the declaration of war, the deployment of troops and intel gathering.
QUOTE
3. Kinetic weapons.. ie big rocks... are diverted towards the Earth and aimed only at nuclear bunkers. All other military installations will be left intact.... for reasons that will be obvious later.
Let's say it has a 70% effective kill rate. That's okay because much of earth's nuclear armaments are no longer stored in nuclear bunkers (to be explained below), and those bunkers which contain nuclear weapons will tend to be those most well concealed, rather than the most hardened, and thus those most likely to survive this attack.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| 3. Kinetic weapons.. ie big rocks... are diverted towards the Earth and aimed only at nuclear bunkers. All other military installations will be left intact.... for reasons that will be obvious later. |
Let's say it has a 70% effective kill rate. That's okay because much of earth's nuclear armaments are no longer stored in nuclear bunkers (to be explained below), and those bunkers which contain nuclear weapons will tend to be those most well concealed, rather than the most hardened, and thus those most likely to survive this attack.
4. Powerful lasers now aim at the electrical infrastructure. Knocking down power in all cities.
5. Aliens prepare for the next step... full combat invasion.
This part doesn't fit very well with their motivations... Any "sit back and pound" strategy would likely run far against the grain of an alien race spoiling for a fight. But it's okay in the context of this chain of events, as you'll see below.
However, it is anticipated and countered by the dissemination of large generators to sensitive areas, the disguising of electrical power generation facilities and substations (which would begin very soon after initial detection), not to mention other essential facilities such as water treatment, manufacturing plants, military bases, etc. Misdirection tactics would be used to create dummy facilities for the aliens to target, some less essential facilities will be purposefully sacrificed, some essential systems will be hardened against laser strikes, forcing reliance on KEWs to take them out, thus extending their lifespan beyond what would be expected. Since as you said before, the Degravians cannot read English, I'm assuming they can't read French or Dutch or any other earth languages, their ability to determine what function many structures play would be severely hindered, allowing military manufacturing to continue pretty much uninterrupted, barring the occasional lucky strike.
I figure about 25-40% effectiveness in these strikes against the electrical infrastructure, and virtually no effect on military-required infrastructure (which is already hardened against and concealed from aerial or space bombardment).
The (limited) effectiveness of these strikes however will harden the resolve of the defenders. The Degravians have thus eliminated virtually any chance of extracting human intel from any captives, and have turned a scared and awestruck populace into an insurgency waiting to congeal, not to mention ensuring the movement of the earth from a collection of nations at war to a collection of nations in a state of total war. All earth resources are now turned towards defending the planet, putting the Degravians at a significant disadvantage in the long term.
QUOTE
2. Powerful lasers shoot down anything flying... planes, balloons, etc.
Aaaaaand, here's the kicker...
The defenders would refrain from launching aircraft for the most part, aware of what would happen to them after the limited effectiveness of the initial nuclear assault. Those aircraft launched would use cloud cover and high speeds to avoid destruction. Military combat aircraft would be prepped and hidden in concealed and/or hardened hangers, ready to be deployed the instant any alien aircraft are detected (which would be almost the instant they are launched, thanks to orbital radar facilities). Among them are included many stealth bombers and other high altitude bomber craft armed with air-to-air missiles, retrofitted (given the month of preparation time) to attack orbital targets, so that when the landing craft and their fighter escorts are deployed, there is a convenient smoke screen from which to launch another nuclear assault, this one with far more likelihood of success, given the smaller size of the weapons and the shorter distance traveled by them. Vast numbers of tactical nukes could be launched (just imagine how many tactical nukes could be built by all the world's nations in a month, not to mention all those not used up already), following flyingbuttressman's earlier suggestion of a 'nuclear shotgun' type assault.
Thus, thanks to their overly cautious preparations for the ground invasion, they're facing a conservative 40-70% losses by the time they make a beachhead. Surrender ensues, they trade technology for resources with which to rebuild, and move on to seek a less cunning opponent.
One of the better known precepts of military planning is to never underestimate your opponent and go rushing in without proper preparations. But few people are aware that to overestimate your opponent and spend too much time getting ready can be just as dangerous.
HOWEVER!!! I don't like this ending.
Since I'm sure everyone can agree that you are no space viking (I think, I may be wrong
), we must allow that you would think in more human and practical terms than the leaders of a fanatical warrior cult of an alien species would.Perhaps you'd like to revise your second stage?
Alternately, we can go over it and my response, piece by piece, but I'm pretty confident about this one.
Ahem... you claim victory before you even strike a blow there Capitan Mjolnir.
A number of your assumptions are not supported ... according to me at any rate.. and as a Space Viking I should know. Anyway...
I think that this is unlikely. The only way that any successful strikes could have occurred was that the aliens might have been surprised by a few tricks, like fully reflective coatings.. etc.
Once full observation was implemented and space was secured, I do not think any space attacks could succeed. Remember that taking a weapon and sending 30 000 kilometers is not easy even without interception. ICBM's do not have the fuel to go that far. You would need a Titan style rocket to do it. How many can you build and send up in a month and have them avoid intercept from an enemy prepared and watching?
Not too many.
I think that this is unlikely. The only way that any successful strikes could have occurred was that the aliens might have been surprised by a few tricks, like fully reflective coatings.. etc.
Once full observation was implemented and space was secured, I do not think any space attacks could succeed. Remember that taking a weapon and sending 30 000 kilometers is not easy even without interception. ICBM's do not have the fuel to go that far. You would need a Titan style rocket to do it. How many can you build and send up in a month and have them avoid intercept from an enemy prepared and watching?
Not too many.
Let's say it has a 70% effective kill rate. That's okay because much of earth's nuclear armaments are no longer stored in nuclear bunkers (to be explained below), and those bunkers which contain nuclear weapons will tend to be those most well concealed, rather than the most hardened, and thus those most likely to survive this attack.
70% effective kill rate is acceptable to us.
Note that no military facilities are being pounded nor are the cities. Only the electrical stations... this is to ensure a decent fight... with confusion on the side of the aliens for the beachhead effort.
Which will be coming... oh yes...
Note that no military facilities are being pounded nor are the cities. Only the electrical stations... this is to ensure a decent fight... with confusion on the side of the aliens for the beachhead effort.
Which will be coming... oh yes...
Among them are included many stealth bombers and other high altitude bomber craft armed with air-to-air missiles, retrofitted (given the month of preparation time) to attack orbital targets, so that when the landing craft and their fighter escorts are deployed, there is a convenient smoke screen from which to launch another nuclear assault, this one with far more likelihood of success, given the smaller size of the weapons and the shorter distance traveled by them. Vast numbers of tactical nukes could be launched (just imagine how many tactical nukes could be built by all the world's nations in a month, not to mention all those not used up already), following flyingbuttressman's earlier suggestion of a 'nuclear shotgun' type assault.
Don't start countering my attack before it comes young human. It will come soon enough. However, you have tipped your hand early... how ...human of you. Mwahahahahaha...
Ah.. but you forget all the rednecks we have captured over the years and.. uh...probed.
They will tell us much to avoid being probed again.
It's pretty predictable. Winds won't affect something that big and fast much. After that it's just a question of calculations. A race that navigates between stars should be able to do something like that pretty easily.
It's pretty predictable. Winds won't affect something that big and fast much. After that it's just a question of calculations. A race that navigates between stars should be able to do something like that pretty easily.
Also, I'm not sure how accurate a laser can be when used over a range of 35,000 km. That's about .119 light-seconds.
Well...
My aliens can improve on that score by one entire cm. Bwahahahaha... our technology is supreme.
A number of your assumptions are not supported ... according to me at any rate.. and as a Space Viking I should know. Anyway...
QUOTE
Now this presents a problem. Remember how I said that the continuing missile strikes could be ignored? If the Degravians are going to just sit there for a month, observing us, that negates that. If you figure there's 20 launches a day per missile facility, and a hundred facilities (both conservative estimates), that's about two thousand per day, and bear in mind they need not all be nuclear. Conventional weapons would also like prove effective, given the size of the ships, based off of their passenger compliment.
I think that this is unlikely. The only way that any successful strikes could have occurred was that the aliens might have been surprised by a few tricks, like fully reflective coatings.. etc.
Once full observation was implemented and space was secured, I do not think any space attacks could succeed. Remember that taking a weapon and sending 30 000 kilometers is not easy even without interception. ICBM's do not have the fuel to go that far. You would need a Titan style rocket to do it. How many can you build and send up in a month and have them avoid intercept from an enemy prepared and watching?
Not too many.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Now this presents a problem. Remember how I said that the continuing missile strikes could be ignored? If the Degravians are going to just sit there for a month, observing us, that negates that. If you figure there's 20 launches a day per missile facility, and a hundred facilities (both conservative estimates), that's about two thousand per day, and bear in mind they need not all be nuclear. Conventional weapons would also like prove effective, given the size of the ships, based off of their passenger compliment. |
I think that this is unlikely. The only way that any successful strikes could have occurred was that the aliens might have been surprised by a few tricks, like fully reflective coatings.. etc.
Once full observation was implemented and space was secured, I do not think any space attacks could succeed. Remember that taking a weapon and sending 30 000 kilometers is not easy even without interception. ICBM's do not have the fuel to go that far. You would need a Titan style rocket to do it. How many can you build and send up in a month and have them avoid intercept from an enemy prepared and watching?
Not too many.
Let's say it has a 70% effective kill rate. That's okay because much of earth's nuclear armaments are no longer stored in nuclear bunkers (to be explained below), and those bunkers which contain nuclear weapons will tend to be those most well concealed, rather than the most hardened, and thus those most likely to survive this attack.
70% effective kill rate is acceptable to us.
QUOTE
This part doesn't fit very well with their motivations... Any "sit back and pound" strategy would likely run far against the grain of an alien race spoiling for a fight. But it's okay in the context of this chain of events, as you'll see below.
Note that no military facilities are being pounded nor are the cities. Only the electrical stations... this is to ensure a decent fight... with confusion on the side of the aliens for the beachhead effort.
Which will be coming... oh yes...
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| This part doesn't fit very well with their motivations... Any "sit back and pound" strategy would likely run far against the grain of an alien race spoiling for a fight. But it's okay in the context of this chain of events, as you'll see below. |
Note that no military facilities are being pounded nor are the cities. Only the electrical stations... this is to ensure a decent fight... with confusion on the side of the aliens for the beachhead effort.
Which will be coming... oh yes...
Among them are included many stealth bombers and other high altitude bomber craft armed with air-to-air missiles, retrofitted (given the month of preparation time) to attack orbital targets, so that when the landing craft and their fighter escorts are deployed, there is a convenient smoke screen from which to launch another nuclear assault, this one with far more likelihood of success, given the smaller size of the weapons and the shorter distance traveled by them. Vast numbers of tactical nukes could be launched (just imagine how many tactical nukes could be built by all the world's nations in a month, not to mention all those not used up already), following flyingbuttressman's earlier suggestion of a 'nuclear shotgun' type assault.
Don't start countering my attack before it comes young human. It will come soon enough. However, you have tipped your hand early... how ...human of you. Mwahahahahaha...
QUOTE
The Degravians have thus eliminated virtually any chance of extracting human intel from any captives,
Ah.. but you forget all the rednecks we have captured over the years and.. uh...probed.
They will tell us much to avoid being probed again.
The aliens understand English now? and not just English, but redneck English? That's a stretch
I'm not so sure that the "kill nuclear bunkers with rocks" plan would work. Since when is it possible to predict how a meteoroid will move as it enters the atmosphere?
Also, I'm not sure how accurate a laser can be when used over a range of 35,000 km. That's about .119 light-seconds.
I'm not so sure that the "kill nuclear bunkers with rocks" plan would work. Since when is it possible to predict how a meteoroid will move as it enters the atmosphere?
Also, I'm not sure how accurate a laser can be when used over a range of 35,000 km. That's about .119 light-seconds.
QUOTE
Since when is it possible to predict how a meteoroid will move as it enters the atmosphere?
It's pretty predictable. Winds won't affect something that big and fast much. After that it's just a question of calculations. A race that navigates between stars should be able to do something like that pretty easily.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Since when is it possible to predict how a meteoroid will move as it enters the atmosphere? |
It's pretty predictable. Winds won't affect something that big and fast much. After that it's just a question of calculations. A race that navigates between stars should be able to do something like that pretty easily.
Also, I'm not sure how accurate a laser can be when used over a range of 35,000 km. That's about .119 light-seconds.
Well...
QUOTE
High precision Lunar Laser Ranging (LLR) started soon after the Apollo 11 astronauts left the first retroreflector on the Moon.[3] Additional reflectors were left by the Apollo 14 and Apollo 15 astronauts, and two French-built reflector arrays were placed on the Moon by the Soviet Luna 17 and Luna 21 lunar rover missions. Over the years since, many groups and experiments have used this technique to study the behavior of the Earth-Moon system, investigating gravitational and other effects.[4][5]
For the first few years, the distance between the observatory and the reflectors could be measured to about 25 cm accuracy. Improved techniques and equipment lead to accuracies of 12–16 cm until about 1984. Then McDonald Observatory built a special purpose system (MLRS) just for ranging, and achieved roughly 3 cm accuracies mid-to-late 1980s. In the early 1990s a French LLR system at the Observatoire de la Côte d’Azur (OCA) started operation, with similar precision.[6]
For the first few years, the distance between the observatory and the reflectors could be measured to about 25 cm accuracy. Improved techniques and equipment lead to accuracies of 12–16 cm until about 1984. Then McDonald Observatory built a special purpose system (MLRS) just for ranging, and achieved roughly 3 cm accuracies mid-to-late 1980s. In the early 1990s a French LLR system at the Observatoire de la Côte d’Azur (OCA) started operation, with similar precision.[6]
My aliens can improve on that score by one entire cm. Bwahahahaha... our technology is supreme.
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Jul 14 2009, 07:19 PM)
I think that this is unlikely. The only way that any successful strikes could have occurred was that the aliens might have been surprised by a few tricks, like fully reflective coatings.. etc.
Once full observation was implemented and space was secured, I do not think any space attacks could succeed.
You're forgetting Pvt. Murphey's First Law of Combat: (as stated technically, it goes "Any probability of failure greater than 0 is precisely equal to 1." The more usual method of stating it is that "If something can break, it will."
Then there's Pvt. Murphey's 2nd LoC: Pertaining to the first LoC, it will do so at the worst moment.
Humans are not the only species susceptible to these laws, they apply to aliens as well. More germane to the point, they apply to the Degravians detection and interception capabilities. In all honesty, the hit rate and kill rate of such missile attacks would likely be higher than that which I presented, however I'm assuming the aliens have been tweaking and perfecting their defensive capabilities for at least 50-60 years, plenty of time to get as much reliability out of these systems as is humanly (Degravianly?) possible. I'm also accounting for it's affect on the missiles fired, so I'm undershooting it's reliability.
Additionally, I am counting on a few tricks, like fully reflective coating, resheathing of the missiles with lower RCS panels (An ICBM can virtually disapear from radar with enough attention payed to it's radar signature) and other techniques. I'm sure there's even a few I haven't thought of.
Actually, the apogee of a typical ICBM is at an altitude of approximately 1,200km, before which their inertia will be sufficient to carry them to their target. Also, as I pointed out previously, there would be retrofitting of these (Implied to be with additional fuel storage and possibly additional thrusters). My mental picture has them being fired, reaching a point at which their inertia is greater than escape velocity, then firing additional fuel sources or thrusters to increase speed (which is more efficient that the initial firing, thanks to a lack of friction from the air) in order to reach their targets faster.
Finally, there's also the issue of maneuverability. They can still dodge, and lasers (even very powerful ones) will have to remain on target for a period of time (considering their advanced technology, we can say 1-2 seconds) in order to detonate the remaining fuel or explosive materials on board. That's about 2 million times more time than is needed for the onboard computers to detect the beam, determine to react, and react. Switching to KEW's or other ballistic weaponry allows radar systems on board the missile to react before there is even contact.
In fact, the alien's success in shooting down such missiles would be mainly due to being able to shoot from several angles at once (I'm assuming they have more than one defensive laser or KEW system per ship).
Actually, the apogee of a typical ICBM is at an altitude of approximately 1,200km, before which their inertia will be sufficient to carry them to their target. Also, as I pointed out previously, there would be retrofitting of these (Implied to be with additional fuel storage and possibly additional thrusters). My mental picture has them being fired, reaching a point at which their inertia is greater than escape velocity, then firing additional fuel sources or thrusters to increase speed (which is more efficient that the initial firing, thanks to a lack of friction from the air) in order to reach their targets faster.
Finally, there's also the issue of maneuverability. They can still dodge, and lasers (even very powerful ones) will have to remain on target for a period of time (considering their advanced technology, we can say 1-2 seconds) in order to detonate the remaining fuel or explosive materials on board. That's about 2 million times more time than is needed for the onboard computers to detect the beam, determine to react, and react. Switching to KEW's or other ballistic weaponry allows radar systems on board the missile to react before there is even contact.
In fact, the alien's success in shooting down such missiles would be mainly due to being able to shoot from several angles at once (I'm assuming they have more than one defensive laser or KEW system per ship).
How many can you build and send up in a month and have them avoid intercept from an enemy prepared and watching? Not too many.
That's precisely why I chose to underestimate the success rate. If it were as simple as "point, shoot and watch the fireworks," then I'd have claimed victory after the first salvo.
Ahh, but if successful, it places the defenders at a disadvantage. This is something desirable to the military mind, but not so much to the space viking mind... But as I said, it's acceptable to me in the context of this chain of events.
Ahh, but if successful, it places the defenders at a disadvantage. This is something desirable to the military mind, but not so much to the space viking mind... But as I said, it's acceptable to me in the context of this chain of events.
Don't start countering my attack before it comes young human. It will come soon enough. However, you have tipped your hand early... how ...human of you. Mwahahahahaha...
Staying in character... I like that.
If you have a defense against the tactic I described, that's fine. I just don't see any good defenses, other than launching every last landing craft with all hands on board these (assuming there's at least 50-60 of them per ship), and praying for the best. (Thereby shifting from 40-70% troop losses to loss of 60-90% of the empty motherships.) Oh, and aiming them all at a single area in order to establish a strong beachhead might seem like a bright idea, but consider how much easier it makes it for the fighter aircraft and ground-based air defenses to target them...
I'm sure they would, if only the Degravians knew enough English to ask...
Might I offer some advice?
Were I you, I would seize the beachhead as quickly as possible after arrival. This gives us less time to prepare (and this is a war in which the more time we have to prepare, the better off we are, a formula which doesn't hold true for the more technologically advanced invaders, and generally doesn't hold true for attackers or invaders in most cases) and allows you to use shock & awe and the element of surprise to your advantage. It also allows your soldiers to get in there and test their mettle against us puny earthlings that much faster, improving morale.
Also, I would opt for multiple beachheads, ideally located in politically stable regions with very low population densities, to reduce the speed and efficiency with which we could react.
Of course, we're still going to wipe you out and steal your technology.
Once full observation was implemented and space was secured, I do not think any space attacks could succeed.
You're forgetting Pvt. Murphey's First Law of Combat: (as stated technically, it goes "Any probability of failure greater than 0 is precisely equal to 1." The more usual method of stating it is that "If something can break, it will."
Then there's Pvt. Murphey's 2nd LoC: Pertaining to the first LoC, it will do so at the worst moment.
Humans are not the only species susceptible to these laws, they apply to aliens as well. More germane to the point, they apply to the Degravians detection and interception capabilities. In all honesty, the hit rate and kill rate of such missile attacks would likely be higher than that which I presented, however I'm assuming the aliens have been tweaking and perfecting their defensive capabilities for at least 50-60 years, plenty of time to get as much reliability out of these systems as is humanly (Degravianly?) possible. I'm also accounting for it's affect on the missiles fired, so I'm undershooting it's reliability.
Additionally, I am counting on a few tricks, like fully reflective coating, resheathing of the missiles with lower RCS panels (An ICBM can virtually disapear from radar with enough attention payed to it's radar signature) and other techniques. I'm sure there's even a few I haven't thought of.
QUOTE
Remember that taking a weapon and sending 30 000 kilometers is not easy even without interception. ICBM's do not have the fuel to go that far. You would need a Titan style rocket to do it.
Actually, the apogee of a typical ICBM is at an altitude of approximately 1,200km, before which their inertia will be sufficient to carry them to their target. Also, as I pointed out previously, there would be retrofitting of these (Implied to be with additional fuel storage and possibly additional thrusters). My mental picture has them being fired, reaching a point at which their inertia is greater than escape velocity, then firing additional fuel sources or thrusters to increase speed (which is more efficient that the initial firing, thanks to a lack of friction from the air) in order to reach their targets faster.
Finally, there's also the issue of maneuverability. They can still dodge, and lasers (even very powerful ones) will have to remain on target for a period of time (considering their advanced technology, we can say 1-2 seconds) in order to detonate the remaining fuel or explosive materials on board. That's about 2 million times more time than is needed for the onboard computers to detect the beam, determine to react, and react. Switching to KEW's or other ballistic weaponry allows radar systems on board the missile to react before there is even contact.
In fact, the alien's success in shooting down such missiles would be mainly due to being able to shoot from several angles at once (I'm assuming they have more than one defensive laser or KEW system per ship).
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Remember that taking a weapon and sending 30 000 kilometers is not easy even without interception. ICBM's do not have the fuel to go that far. You would need a Titan style rocket to do it. |
Actually, the apogee of a typical ICBM is at an altitude of approximately 1,200km, before which their inertia will be sufficient to carry them to their target. Also, as I pointed out previously, there would be retrofitting of these (Implied to be with additional fuel storage and possibly additional thrusters). My mental picture has them being fired, reaching a point at which their inertia is greater than escape velocity, then firing additional fuel sources or thrusters to increase speed (which is more efficient that the initial firing, thanks to a lack of friction from the air) in order to reach their targets faster.
Finally, there's also the issue of maneuverability. They can still dodge, and lasers (even very powerful ones) will have to remain on target for a period of time (considering their advanced technology, we can say 1-2 seconds) in order to detonate the remaining fuel or explosive materials on board. That's about 2 million times more time than is needed for the onboard computers to detect the beam, determine to react, and react. Switching to KEW's or other ballistic weaponry allows radar systems on board the missile to react before there is even contact.
In fact, the alien's success in shooting down such missiles would be mainly due to being able to shoot from several angles at once (I'm assuming they have more than one defensive laser or KEW system per ship).
How many can you build and send up in a month and have them avoid intercept from an enemy prepared and watching? Not too many.
That's precisely why I chose to underestimate the success rate. If it were as simple as "point, shoot and watch the fireworks," then I'd have claimed victory after the first salvo.
QUOTE
Note that no military facilities are being pounded nor are the cities. Only the electrical stations... this is to ensure a decent fight... with confusion on the side of the aliens for the beachhead effort.
Ahh, but if successful, it places the defenders at a disadvantage. This is something desirable to the military mind, but not so much to the space viking mind... But as I said, it's acceptable to me in the context of this chain of events.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Note that no military facilities are being pounded nor are the cities. Only the electrical stations... this is to ensure a decent fight... with confusion on the side of the aliens for the beachhead effort. |
Ahh, but if successful, it places the defenders at a disadvantage. This is something desirable to the military mind, but not so much to the space viking mind... But as I said, it's acceptable to me in the context of this chain of events.
Don't start countering my attack before it comes young human. It will come soon enough. However, you have tipped your hand early... how ...human of you. Mwahahahahaha...
Staying in character... I like that.If you have a defense against the tactic I described, that's fine. I just don't see any good defenses, other than launching every last landing craft with all hands on board these (assuming there's at least 50-60 of them per ship), and praying for the best. (Thereby shifting from 40-70% troop losses to loss of 60-90% of the empty motherships.) Oh, and aiming them all at a single area in order to establish a strong beachhead might seem like a bright idea, but consider how much easier it makes it for the fighter aircraft and ground-based air defenses to target them...
QUOTE
Ah.. but you forget all the rednecks we have captured over the years and.. uh...probed. They will tell us much to avoid being probed again.
I'm sure they would, if only the Degravians knew enough English to ask...
Might I offer some advice?
Were I you, I would seize the beachhead as quickly as possible after arrival. This gives us less time to prepare (and this is a war in which the more time we have to prepare, the better off we are, a formula which doesn't hold true for the more technologically advanced invaders, and generally doesn't hold true for attackers or invaders in most cases) and allows you to use shock & awe and the element of surprise to your advantage. It also allows your soldiers to get in there and test their mettle against us puny earthlings that much faster, improving morale.
Also, I would opt for multiple beachheads, ideally located in politically stable regions with very low population densities, to reduce the speed and efficiency with which we could react.
Of course, we're still going to wipe you out and steal your technology.
I would like to invite the aliens to a private showing of Tsar Bomba.
THAT is a universal language.
THAT is a universal language.
OK.. I missed a few posts. Sorry.
Alright.. I think we need to establish a few things before I can move on.
ICBM's. I stated that the fleet would be parked at around 30 000 km up in geosynchronous orbit.
1. Can ICBM's, even retrofitted, even reach that far.
2. At a max flight speed of 24000 km/h (from what I have been able to gather so far), it would take an ICBM over an hour to reach that altitude. That is a long time to be dodging lasers (which can reach it in seconds) and kinetic kill units.
3.
How would a system know that it was being targeted by a laser?
There is no way to see a laser and the effect would be localized until explosion. Unless you are suggesting affixing sensors all over the rocket, you would not detect it.
OK.. just that for now.
edited to add.
Oh.. last thing.
The rednecks would learn our language pretty fast... just so they don't get probed again. Mind you, some of them might actually enjoy it. Those we just space.
Alright.. I think we need to establish a few things before I can move on.
ICBM's. I stated that the fleet would be parked at around 30 000 km up in geosynchronous orbit.
1. Can ICBM's, even retrofitted, even reach that far.
2. At a max flight speed of 24000 km/h (from what I have been able to gather so far), it would take an ICBM over an hour to reach that altitude. That is a long time to be dodging lasers (which can reach it in seconds) and kinetic kill units.
3.
QUOTE
They can still dodge, and lasers (even very powerful ones) will have to remain on target for a period of time (considering their advanced technology, we can say 1-2 seconds) in order to detonate the remaining fuel or explosive materials on board. That's about 2 million times more time than is needed for the onboard computers to detect the beam, determine to react, and react.
How would a system know that it was being targeted by a laser?
There is no way to see a laser and the effect would be localized until explosion. Unless you are suggesting affixing sensors all over the rocket, you would not detect it.
OK.. just that for now.
edited to add.
Oh.. last thing.
The rednecks would learn our language pretty fast... just so they don't get probed again. Mind you, some of them might actually enjoy it. Those we just space.
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Jul 16 2009, 08:51 AM)
OK.. I missed a few posts. Sorry.
Alright.. I think we need to establish a few things before I can move on.
ICBM's. I stated that the fleet would be parked at around 30 000 km up in geosynchronous orbit.
1. Can ICBM's, even retrofitted, even reach that far.
Yes.
Bear in mind that the apogee I mention earlier is one in which the missile is on an elliptical path towards a target on the surface of the planet. When firing at a target in geosynchronous orbit, the flight path will be more or less vertical, allowing them to gain a much higher altitude before running out of fuel. When you combine this with additional thrusters and fuel, you can achieve greater speeds (as it spends less time fighting gravity in order to stay aloft) and a much higher altitude.
I think it would be some time less than that, as air resistance would cease to be a factor much quicker in this case than in normal ICBM usage, due to their more vertical trajectory, and the additional fuel and thrusters gives additional speed but we can go with this for the moment.
Also, for much of that time, they will be essentially invisible to any detection system. Radar and visible light both have limited resolutions, part of the reason why even the most advanced military surveillance satellites cannot read 8 point text on a letter held by a person being watched. There are only so many photons which are both reflected off the target and still reach the observer. The Degravians would need incredibly huge telescopes to track the missiles visually, and impossibly powerful lasers to target them soon after launch. The Radar signature of an ICBM is (if I remember correctly) about that of a small bird, so there virtually no chance of detecting it via radar throughout most of it's flight.
It is only in the last 1/4 or so of the journey that they would likely notice them, and be able to target them with any accuracy, due to sheer physical limitations on what is possible. So 15 minutes is a vastly reduced amount of time needed to dodge lasers and KEWs. Bear in mind that I'm still positing a low hit/kill rate.
I think it would be some time less than that, as air resistance would cease to be a factor much quicker in this case than in normal ICBM usage, due to their more vertical trajectory, and the additional fuel and thrusters gives additional speed but we can go with this for the moment.
Also, for much of that time, they will be essentially invisible to any detection system. Radar and visible light both have limited resolutions, part of the reason why even the most advanced military surveillance satellites cannot read 8 point text on a letter held by a person being watched. There are only so many photons which are both reflected off the target and still reach the observer. The Degravians would need incredibly huge telescopes to track the missiles visually, and impossibly powerful lasers to target them soon after launch. The Radar signature of an ICBM is (if I remember correctly) about that of a small bird, so there virtually no chance of detecting it via radar throughout most of it's flight.
It is only in the last 1/4 or so of the journey that they would likely notice them, and be able to target them with any accuracy, due to sheer physical limitations on what is possible. So 15 minutes is a vastly reduced amount of time needed to dodge lasers and KEWs. Bear in mind that I'm still positing a low hit/kill rate.
3.
How would a system know that it was being targeted by a laser?
There is no way to see a laser and the effect would be localized until explosion. Unless you are suggesting affixing sensors all over the rocket, you would not detect it.
That is my suggestion.
Thermal sensors located throughout the nose and body of the missile could easily detect a laser targeting an area near to it. It is not difficult to accomplish, I could likely do all the programming and hardware modifications myself for less than 300 dollars. I'm sure it would be a non-issue for the techs actually doing the work. Also, considering the US's near-future (if not already) deployment of anti-missile lasers, it's possible that many ICBMs would be outfitted with thermal sensors, already.
So then the Degravians would likely be under the mistaken impression that we have powerful, extraterrestrial allies who are close friends with the US president, as the abducted rednecks spill their guts about all the alien conspiracy theories they heard about on Coast to Coast AM and read about in the Weekly World News. Not to mention Bat Boy.
User posted image: User posted image
Now the question is... Would you want to invade that kid's planet? I wouldn't...
Hmmm... that could be a more frightening combo than the missiles. Those idiots might really believe all that crap... and their conviction might indeed carry past the probing.
For now the Degravians are retreating past the orbit of Neptune to consider their next moves and to repair.
Hmmm... that could be a more frightening combo than the missiles. Those idiots might really believe all that crap... and their conviction might indeed carry past the probing.
For now the Degravians are retreating past the orbit of Neptune to consider their next moves and to repair.
Human leaders, meanwhile are cursing the fates that there isn't more truth to the conspiracy theories and channeling massive amounts of funding into space-based and ground-based planetary defenses.
People are beginning to starve in the developing world, and even poorer sections of the developed world, but the problems seem manageable, especially given all the new jobs opening up repairing and shoring up infrastructure in case those rascally aliens return.
Also, all recovered alien artifacts are being studies and reverse-engineered, while space shuttles and rockets send salvage crews into orbit to retrieve anything that didn't fall to earth yet.
On a side note, does reverse-engineered alien tech count as "new" tech under the rules we agreed on, do you think? Or does it's introduction by the aliens negate that, and allow it to fall under the category of an adaptation of current tech?
Alright.. I think we need to establish a few things before I can move on.
ICBM's. I stated that the fleet would be parked at around 30 000 km up in geosynchronous orbit.
1. Can ICBM's, even retrofitted, even reach that far.
Yes.
Bear in mind that the apogee I mention earlier is one in which the missile is on an elliptical path towards a target on the surface of the planet. When firing at a target in geosynchronous orbit, the flight path will be more or less vertical, allowing them to gain a much higher altitude before running out of fuel. When you combine this with additional thrusters and fuel, you can achieve greater speeds (as it spends less time fighting gravity in order to stay aloft) and a much higher altitude.
QUOTE
2. At a max flight speed of 24000 km/h (from what I have been able to gather so far), it would take an ICBM over an hour to reach that altitude. That is a long time to be dodging lasers (which can reach it in seconds) and kinetic kill units.
I think it would be some time less than that, as air resistance would cease to be a factor much quicker in this case than in normal ICBM usage, due to their more vertical trajectory, and the additional fuel and thrusters gives additional speed but we can go with this for the moment.
Also, for much of that time, they will be essentially invisible to any detection system. Radar and visible light both have limited resolutions, part of the reason why even the most advanced military surveillance satellites cannot read 8 point text on a letter held by a person being watched. There are only so many photons which are both reflected off the target and still reach the observer. The Degravians would need incredibly huge telescopes to track the missiles visually, and impossibly powerful lasers to target them soon after launch. The Radar signature of an ICBM is (if I remember correctly) about that of a small bird, so there virtually no chance of detecting it via radar throughout most of it's flight.
It is only in the last 1/4 or so of the journey that they would likely notice them, and be able to target them with any accuracy, due to sheer physical limitations on what is possible. So 15 minutes is a vastly reduced amount of time needed to dodge lasers and KEWs. Bear in mind that I'm still positing a low hit/kill rate.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| 2. At a max flight speed of 24000 km/h (from what I have been able to gather so far), it would take an ICBM over an hour to reach that altitude. That is a long time to be dodging lasers (which can reach it in seconds) and kinetic kill units. |
I think it would be some time less than that, as air resistance would cease to be a factor much quicker in this case than in normal ICBM usage, due to their more vertical trajectory, and the additional fuel and thrusters gives additional speed but we can go with this for the moment.
Also, for much of that time, they will be essentially invisible to any detection system. Radar and visible light both have limited resolutions, part of the reason why even the most advanced military surveillance satellites cannot read 8 point text on a letter held by a person being watched. There are only so many photons which are both reflected off the target and still reach the observer. The Degravians would need incredibly huge telescopes to track the missiles visually, and impossibly powerful lasers to target them soon after launch. The Radar signature of an ICBM is (if I remember correctly) about that of a small bird, so there virtually no chance of detecting it via radar throughout most of it's flight.
It is only in the last 1/4 or so of the journey that they would likely notice them, and be able to target them with any accuracy, due to sheer physical limitations on what is possible. So 15 minutes is a vastly reduced amount of time needed to dodge lasers and KEWs. Bear in mind that I'm still positing a low hit/kill rate.
3.
How would a system know that it was being targeted by a laser?
There is no way to see a laser and the effect would be localized until explosion. Unless you are suggesting affixing sensors all over the rocket, you would not detect it.
That is my suggestion.
Thermal sensors located throughout the nose and body of the missile could easily detect a laser targeting an area near to it. It is not difficult to accomplish, I could likely do all the programming and hardware modifications myself for less than 300 dollars. I'm sure it would be a non-issue for the techs actually doing the work. Also, considering the US's near-future (if not already) deployment of anti-missile lasers, it's possible that many ICBMs would be outfitted with thermal sensors, already.
QUOTE
The rednecks would learn our language pretty fast... just so they don't get probed again. Mind you, some of them might actually enjoy it. Those we just space.
So then the Degravians would likely be under the mistaken impression that we have powerful, extraterrestrial allies who are close friends with the US president, as the abducted rednecks spill their guts about all the alien conspiracy theories they heard about on Coast to Coast AM and read about in the Weekly World News. Not to mention Bat Boy.
User posted image: User posted image
Now the question is... Would you want to invade that kid's planet? I wouldn't...
QUOTE
So then the Degravians would likely be under the mistaken impression that we have powerful, extraterrestrial allies who are close friends with the US president, as the abducted rednecks spill their guts about all the alien conspiracy theories they heard about on Coast to Coast AM and read about in the Weekly World News. Not to mention Bat Boy
Hmmm... that could be a more frightening combo than the missiles. Those idiots might really believe all that crap... and their conviction might indeed carry past the probing.
For now the Degravians are retreating past the orbit of Neptune to consider their next moves and to repair.
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Jul 16 2009, 01:13 PM)
Hmmm... that could be a more frightening combo than the missiles. Those idiots might really believe all that crap... and their conviction might indeed carry past the probing.
For now the Degravians are retreating past the orbit of Neptune to consider their next moves and to repair.
Human leaders, meanwhile are cursing the fates that there isn't more truth to the conspiracy theories and channeling massive amounts of funding into space-based and ground-based planetary defenses.
People are beginning to starve in the developing world, and even poorer sections of the developed world, but the problems seem manageable, especially given all the new jobs opening up repairing and shoring up infrastructure in case those rascally aliens return.
Also, all recovered alien artifacts are being studies and reverse-engineered, while space shuttles and rockets send salvage crews into orbit to retrieve anything that didn't fall to earth yet.
On a side note, does reverse-engineered alien tech count as "new" tech under the rules we agreed on, do you think? Or does it's introduction by the aliens negate that, and allow it to fall under the category of an adaptation of current tech?
QUOTE (MjolnirPants+Jul 16 2009, 02:53 PM)
On a side note, does reverse-engineered alien tech count as "new" tech under the rules we agreed on, do you think? Or does it's introduction by the aliens negate that, and allow it to fall under the category of an adaptation of current tech?
I vote that we adapt the alien propulsion technology for our own use, and then attach it to our ICBMs. (is that seriously all we have? c'mon humans!)
I vote that we adapt the alien propulsion technology for our own use, and then attach it to our ICBMs. (is that seriously all we have? c'mon humans!)
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Jul 16 2009, 03:03 PM)
I vote that we adapt the alien propulsion technology for our own use, and then attach it to our ICBMs. (is that seriously all we have? c'mon humans!)
Interesting idea, but I'm more concerned with the high powered lasers, new materials and power sources we could develop through reverse-engineering. If -for instance- the Degravians use matter/anti-matter reactors, we could learn new, cheap methods of producing antimatter (the reactor itself is well within our capabilities). New materials might yield thermoelectric materials, allowing us to increase the efficiency of almost every combustion engine (internal or external) we have, not to mention the efficiency of photovoltaic cells (allowing all that energy lost as heat to be recovered). The lasers would give us the ability to strike back at the aliens more efficiently than with ballistic weaponry, as well as boosting efficiency wide variety of fields, such as mining and manufacturing.
Of course, this is all assuming we do a good job of reverse engineering, but I think we will. We have sufficiently advanced technology to determine a great deal about anything we recovered.
And it's all meaningless to this discussion if Rob doesn't agree that it falls under the category of adapted technology.
Interesting idea, but I'm more concerned with the high powered lasers, new materials and power sources we could develop through reverse-engineering. If -for instance- the Degravians use matter/anti-matter reactors, we could learn new, cheap methods of producing antimatter (the reactor itself is well within our capabilities). New materials might yield thermoelectric materials, allowing us to increase the efficiency of almost every combustion engine (internal or external) we have, not to mention the efficiency of photovoltaic cells (allowing all that energy lost as heat to be recovered). The lasers would give us the ability to strike back at the aliens more efficiently than with ballistic weaponry, as well as boosting efficiency wide variety of fields, such as mining and manufacturing.
Of course, this is all assuming we do a good job of reverse engineering, but I think we will. We have sufficiently advanced technology to determine a great deal about anything we recovered.
And it's all meaningless to this discussion if Rob doesn't agree that it falls under the category of adapted technology.
I would agree with reverse engineering tech if you can provide me with a timeline.
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Jul 16 2009, 03:33 PM)
I would agree with reverse engineering tech if you can provide me with a timeline.
Ok, let's say 1-2 years for reverse engineering antimatter production sources(because we have no idea how they'd do that), 2-3 months for the lasers (a tech we already understand, just a better version of it, likely only better in it's power scaling and miniaturization), thanks to the supposed antimatter reactors) and 1-2 months for the thermoelectric materials (which wouldn't require much more than a few trips under an electron microscope, some Gas Spectrum Analysis and a whole bunch of "So that's how you do it!" exclamations.)
I would have suggested reverse engineering alien computers, but I suspect they'd use quantum computing and other methods outside of our ability to reproduce.
EDIT: Full implementation would take considerably longer, but implementation for military purposes would naturally be prioritized, and we could see significant use of thermoelectric and high-powered laser technologies within 1-3 months of the end of the reverse engineering process.
Ok, let's say 1-2 years for reverse engineering antimatter production sources(because we have no idea how they'd do that), 2-3 months for the lasers (a tech we already understand, just a better version of it, likely only better in it's power scaling and miniaturization), thanks to the supposed antimatter reactors) and 1-2 months for the thermoelectric materials (which wouldn't require much more than a few trips under an electron microscope, some Gas Spectrum Analysis and a whole bunch of "So that's how you do it!" exclamations.)
I would have suggested reverse engineering alien computers, but I suspect they'd use quantum computing and other methods outside of our ability to reproduce.
EDIT: Full implementation would take considerably longer, but implementation for military purposes would naturally be prioritized, and we could see significant use of thermoelectric and high-powered laser technologies within 1-3 months of the end of the reverse engineering process.
What sort of timeline would you consider reasonable considering that you are trying to reverse engineer tech from broken pieces that fell to Earth from space and the rare bits scavenged from space after being nuked?
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Jul 16 2009, 04:01 PM)
What sort of timeline would you consider reasonable considering that you are trying to reverse engineer tech from broken pieces that fell to Earth from space and the rare bits scavenged from space after being nuked?
Statistically speaking, considering the hit and kill rate of the attacks so far, I'd say we'd get at least one good example of a computer, a power generator, and a high powered laser.
It's not really an issue with the thermoelectric material. Any little scrap is good enough.
Statistically speaking, considering the hit and kill rate of the attacks so far, I'd say we'd get at least one good example of a computer, a power generator, and a high powered laser.
It's not really an issue with the thermoelectric material. Any little scrap is good enough.
I'll give you the rest but I have to disagree with the computer. Maybe the hardware but I can't see the software being intact enough to get anything from. Even the hardware would be a stretch.
One note... I can't see anything being salvaged in space.. since there might be some of us rascally aliens around.
All you get is stuff that fell to Earth. I also think that your timeline is optimistic considering what you have to work with as well as your hit-kill ratio. Any re-estimates?
One note... I can't see anything being salvaged in space.. since there might be some of us rascally aliens around.
All you get is stuff that fell to Earth. I also think that your timeline is optimistic considering what you have to work with as well as your hit-kill ratio. Any re-estimates?
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Jul 16 2009, 04:09 PM)
I'll give you the rest but I have to disagree with the computer. Maybe the hardware but I can't see the software being intact enough to get anything from. Even the hardware would be a stretch.
One note... I can't see anything being salvaged in space.. since there might be some of us rascally aliens around.
All you get is stuff that fell to Earth. I also think that your timeline is optimistic considering what you have to work with. Any re-estimates?
I will act as another faction on Earth that works cooperatively with MjolnirPants' government. We are more interested in the propulsion technology since it will give us the ability to retrofit our fighter jets for space travel. Based on our observations of the alien spacecraft, we already have an idea as to how the alien propulsion system works, and barring exotic raw materials (antimatter, etc) we should be able to create a working system within a year of recovering a sample.
One note... I can't see anything being salvaged in space.. since there might be some of us rascally aliens around.
All you get is stuff that fell to Earth. I also think that your timeline is optimistic considering what you have to work with. Any re-estimates?
I will act as another faction on Earth that works cooperatively with MjolnirPants' government. We are more interested in the propulsion technology since it will give us the ability to retrofit our fighter jets for space travel. Based on our observations of the alien spacecraft, we already have an idea as to how the alien propulsion system works, and barring exotic raw materials (antimatter, etc) we should be able to create a working system within a year of recovering a sample.
OK... the alien are quiet for a month.... learning about humans by analyzing old tv shows. Live in fear for one month... then our plan shall unfurl.
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Jul 16 2009, 04:09 PM)
I'll give you the rest but I have to disagree with the computer. Maybe the hardware but I can't see the software being intact enough to get anything from. Even the hardware would be a stretch.
You mean the Degravians built these big, badass motherships and didn't take any steps to protect their computers from damage? That's fine by me! (remember, I'm not counting on being able to reverse engineer an alien computer)
Note to flyingbuttressman: Explosives, baby. Any sufficiently powerful explosion in proximity to a mothership will knock out it's main computer. We've discovered a weakness in their engineering!
Risk/reward, baby.
Cost of a few astronauts and a shuttle? A couple billion.
Potential gains from reverse-engineering advance alien technology? A couple hundred billion, minimum.
Which gives me a good idea, to be expounded upon at the proper moment.
Flyingbuttressman: Do me a favor and have your civilian population begin mining uranium and titanium as much as possible. I've got an idea... Also, let's share all our spacecraft plans. I've got this wonderful idea...
Risk/reward, baby.
Cost of a few astronauts and a shuttle? A couple billion.
Potential gains from reverse-engineering advance alien technology? A couple hundred billion, minimum.
Which gives me a good idea, to be expounded upon at the proper moment.
Flyingbuttressman: Do me a favor and have your civilian population begin mining uranium and titanium as much as possible. I've got an idea... Also, let's share all our spacecraft plans. I've got this wonderful idea...
All you get is stuff that fell to Earth. I also think that your timeline is optimistic considering what you have to work with as well as your hit-kill ratio. Any re-estimates?
No, I think my time line is pretty accurate, considering the resources poured into it. Bear in mind, we're facing extinction, here (and not from some abstract threat like global warming, but from evil alien invaders bent on destroying all humans). We're plenty motivated to... well... "Git 'R Done."
You mean the Degravians built these big, badass motherships and didn't take any steps to protect their computers from damage? That's fine by me! (remember, I'm not counting on being able to reverse engineer an alien computer)
Note to flyingbuttressman: Explosives, baby. Any sufficiently powerful explosion in proximity to a mothership will knock out it's main computer. We've discovered a weakness in their engineering!
QUOTE
One note... I can't see anything being salvaged in space.. since there might be some of us rascally aliens around.
Risk/reward, baby.
Cost of a few astronauts and a shuttle? A couple billion.
Potential gains from reverse-engineering advance alien technology? A couple hundred billion, minimum.
Which gives me a good idea, to be expounded upon at the proper moment.
Flyingbuttressman: Do me a favor and have your civilian population begin mining uranium and titanium as much as possible. I've got an idea... Also, let's share all our spacecraft plans. I've got this wonderful idea...
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| One note... I can't see anything being salvaged in space.. since there might be some of us rascally aliens around. |
Risk/reward, baby.
Cost of a few astronauts and a shuttle? A couple billion.
Potential gains from reverse-engineering advance alien technology? A couple hundred billion, minimum.
Which gives me a good idea, to be expounded upon at the proper moment.
Flyingbuttressman: Do me a favor and have your civilian population begin mining uranium and titanium as much as possible. I've got an idea... Also, let's share all our spacecraft plans. I've got this wonderful idea...
All you get is stuff that fell to Earth. I also think that your timeline is optimistic considering what you have to work with as well as your hit-kill ratio. Any re-estimates?
No, I think my time line is pretty accurate, considering the resources poured into it. Bear in mind, we're facing extinction, here (and not from some abstract threat like global warming, but from evil alien invaders bent on destroying all humans). We're plenty motivated to... well... "Git 'R Done."
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+)
I will act as another faction on Earth that works cooperatively with MjolnirPants' government. We are more interested in the propulsion technology since it will give us the ability to retrofit our fighter jets for space travel. Based on our observations of the alien spacecraft, we already have an idea as to how the alien propulsion system works, and barring exotic raw materials (antimatter, etc) we should be able to create a working system within a year of recovering a sample.
There's a lot more to making a fighter jet spaceworthy than giving it more powerful engines... You have to add in life support systems, extra radiation shielding, you have to hermetically seal the cockpit and any areas which are air-cooled, as well as installing fans to move that air around (since you can't use the force of flying through the air to push it around), the navigation systems would need to be changed from aerodynamics to maneuvering thrusters, pilots would need to be trained to fly in microgravity, new safety systems would need to be implemented, etc, etc, etc...
It's doable, but I don't think we could built and field an aerospace fighters in less than 2-3 years, and we certainly wouldn't have a significant number of them for a few more years.
Meanwhile, we'll be building and launching early-warning systems as fast as possible. Radar and telescope based satellites and probes launched throughout the solar system, to orbit other planets and rest in Lagrange points. Admittedly, it'll take a few months to a few years for most of them to arrive at their intended destinations, but the further out they are before any aliens come back, the more advanced warning we'll have.
There's a lot more to making a fighter jet spaceworthy than giving it more powerful engines... You have to add in life support systems, extra radiation shielding, you have to hermetically seal the cockpit and any areas which are air-cooled, as well as installing fans to move that air around (since you can't use the force of flying through the air to push it around), the navigation systems would need to be changed from aerodynamics to maneuvering thrusters, pilots would need to be trained to fly in microgravity, new safety systems would need to be implemented, etc, etc, etc...
It's doable, but I don't think we could built and field an aerospace fighters in less than 2-3 years, and we certainly wouldn't have a significant number of them for a few more years.
Meanwhile, we'll be building and launching early-warning systems as fast as possible. Radar and telescope based satellites and probes launched throughout the solar system, to orbit other planets and rest in Lagrange points. Admittedly, it'll take a few months to a few years for most of them to arrive at their intended destinations, but the further out they are before any aliens come back, the more advanced warning we'll have.
QUOTE (Rob+)
OK... the alien are quiet for a month.... learning about humans by analyzing old tv shows. Live in fear for one month... then our plan shall unfurl.
You mean you'll retreat to outside of Neptune's orbit, then wait a month, or spend a month heading away and returning?
You mean you'll retreat to outside of Neptune's orbit, then wait a month, or spend a month heading away and returning?
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Jul 16 2009, 04:27 PM)
OK... the alien are quiet for a month.... learning about humans by analyzing old tv shows. Live in fear for one month... then our plan shall unfurl.
One other thing...
We start broadcasting reruns of The Jerry Springer Show and American Idol audition shows. Still want to invade?
One other thing...
We start broadcasting reruns of The Jerry Springer Show and American Idol audition shows. Still want to invade?
I am ok with the timeline. No computers but you are wrong in saying that our computers are not protected. They all have this neat spaceship built around them.
BTW.. the ships we have are in fact powered by an advanced form of matter/antimatter annihilation. Put that in your pipe and smoke it... uh.. maybe it's not a good idea actually.
YES
We are big fans of Jerry. All that violence gets our juices flowing (I mean that literally).
BTW.. the ships we have are in fact powered by an advanced form of matter/antimatter annihilation. Put that in your pipe and smoke it... uh.. maybe it's not a good idea actually.
QUOTE
We start broadcasting reruns of The Jerry Springer Show and American Idol audition shows. Still want to invade?
YES
We are big fans of Jerry. All that violence gets our juices flowing (I mean that literally).
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Jul 16 2009, 06:17 PM)
I am ok with the timeline. No computers but you are wrong in saying that our computers are not protected. They all have this neat spaceship built around them.
Well, yeah, but that doesn't do much good when you're dealing with concussive forces. Like from a nuclear explosion.
That's what I've been assuming. Reverse engineering of these is ongoing, but won't likely finish before the end of the war.
That's what I've been assuming. Reverse engineering of these is ongoing, but won't likely finish before the end of the war.
YES
We are big fans of Jerry. All that violence gets our juices flowing (I mean that literally).
Ewwww...
Just to make sure you see it...
Well, yeah, but that doesn't do much good when you're dealing with concussive forces. Like from a nuclear explosion.
QUOTE
BTW.. the ships we have are in fact powered by an advanced form of matter/antimatter annihilation. Put that in your pipe and smoke it... uh.. maybe it's not a good idea actually.
That's what I've been assuming. Reverse engineering of these is ongoing, but won't likely finish before the end of the war.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| BTW.. the ships we have are in fact powered by an advanced form of matter/antimatter annihilation. Put that in your pipe and smoke it... uh.. maybe it's not a good idea actually. |
That's what I've been assuming. Reverse engineering of these is ongoing, but won't likely finish before the end of the war.
YES
We are big fans of Jerry. All that violence gets our juices flowing (I mean that literally).
Ewwww...
Just to make sure you see it...
QUOTE (me+)
QUOTE (you+)
OK... the alien are quiet for a month.... learning about humans by analyzing old tv shows. Live in fear for one month... then our plan shall unfurl.
You mean you'll retreat to outside of Neptune's orbit, then wait a month, or spend a month heading away and returning?
I have a couple of problems with the general outline, mostly just one particular point, only 200 years more advanced technologically ... but I'll go with it.
Defensive measure, assuming there is some knowledge of this intent. Embed the largest possible EMP (in a dead-man's trigger and/or remote fashion ) technology available into said devices. Only being 200 years more advanced, I doubt they have ways around this. Arm devices with nukes and dirty nukes as well, the smaller tactical types. Range could be an issue, maybe they could "laser" from a distance. Are we also assuming that they have a way to come into weapons range without our seeing them? Perhaps a trail in from the dark-side of the moon?
Rail-guns are not a newly developed technology. I imagine the tech is only getting smaller and larger for the caliber I think I saw one fired on a program about 10 years ago. It used a flat plastic disk with a steel ball bearing in the center. These are excellent projectile weapons.
Use ICBMS if for nothing else as a smoke screen/interference measure. Enable them with thermostats in the guidance/bomb compartment that would cause them to detonate if above a certain "safe" altitude. Give them a dead-man's trigger also set to a safe altitude.
What about these microwave weapons? I imagine those might be effective.
Defensive measure, assuming there is some knowledge of this intent. Embed the largest possible EMP (in a dead-man's trigger and/or remote fashion ) technology available into said devices. Only being 200 years more advanced, I doubt they have ways around this. Arm devices with nukes and dirty nukes as well, the smaller tactical types. Range could be an issue, maybe they could "laser" from a distance. Are we also assuming that they have a way to come into weapons range without our seeing them? Perhaps a trail in from the dark-side of the moon?
Rail-guns are not a newly developed technology. I imagine the tech is only getting smaller and larger for the caliber I think I saw one fired on a program about 10 years ago. It used a flat plastic disk with a steel ball bearing in the center. These are excellent projectile weapons.
Use ICBMS if for nothing else as a smoke screen/interference measure. Enable them with thermostats in the guidance/bomb compartment that would cause them to detonate if above a certain "safe" altitude. Give them a dead-man's trigger also set to a safe altitude.
What about these microwave weapons? I imagine those might be effective.
Bwahahahaha... our technology is supreme.
The German's had that advantage too. Maybe not 200 years worth, but a supreme advantage never the less. I also must wonder about numbers ... the U.S. military, for all intensive purposes is the best equipped force on the planet, but, we hardly have the numbers to control it all (excluding nuke factors for the obvious)
I would also like to raise question about wild cards, is it not possible for any "earth group" to have alien allies?
If they want a "fair" fight what are they really here for? It's hard for me to imagine what resources would be isolated to earth that they would need so desperately other than water ... or atmosphere. There's plenty of big rocks in space with nobody on them for simple material needs ... ore/metal/mineral type. So, why here? Need a new home? If push comes to shove, as flying mentioned ... scorched earth policy?
Was Roswell in 1937? Who knows right? How about at least the length of time Area-51 has been around?
Still have to wonder ... why oh why would anyone want to invade earth, girls are easy? Figuring out how to hurt them is not as important to success as figuring out what it is that they want. A weird alien reason is not a sufficient condition, and just showing up to fight without scouting doesn't seem like the advanced intelligence sort of thing to do. Are these the only aliens out there, primitive conquering because we can types?
To me, it kind of points out the ignorance in assuming just because the "tech" is better, the war will be easily won. Like in Nam, Afghanistan, or Iraq. It's an ignorant remark for an ignorant idea. "We" haven't won any of those conflicts were tech was definitely "the upper hand." And in NK, if nukes were off the table, NK would crush US forces in "ground" combat, with sheer numbers.
The most effective weapons used in Iraq against U.S. forces are roadside bombs currently ... simple booby traps.
But anyways, it doesn't really matter about grammar, rules, and meaning now does it?
How can that happen? All satellites were taken out form high orbit, are they watching and listening to analog from 30,000 km? Also, is this after the power infrastructure has been eliminated? How have the watched old earth television shows?
How can that happen? All satellites were taken out form high orbit, are they watching and listening to analog from 30,000 km? Also, is this after the power infrastructure has been eliminated? How have the watched old earth television shows?
"We have arrived to invite you to come and take your place amongst our peaceful and loving alliance of worlds. We only desire the fulfillment of all you might wish for. However, your evil governments only want you to continue paying taxes and working for them until you have nothing left to give. We come to free you from all that tyranny and offer you a universe of peace, wealth and pleasure. However, in order to do that we need your help"
"We need your help we do. Take arms against those who oppress you, you must. Fight for freedom you will, so that you can join us. If you win, you will be free. Take arms and fight against your governments. There are those who will try to talk against us.. they are spies for the evil ones. You must fight them all... you must never surrender."
And, the story takes a funny twist, first they were coming to kill us, a full
beachhead assault, now they need our less technologically advanced help? Sounds like a psychological warfare tactic, kill from within? The aliens have their own form of government that they wish us to take our place in, isn't that what all governments want? So, we must fight them too, because they want to govern us?
"There are those who will try to talk against us.. they are spies for the evil ones. You must fight them all... you must never surrender."
Sounds like trying to induce a mass paranoia and violence ... odd thing for peace loving aliens to do. What makes them any different then governments we already have?
QUOTE
The first thing they do is to establish a high orbit around the Earth and destroy all satellites and space stations. This I assume they could do easily
Defensive measure, assuming there is some knowledge of this intent. Embed the largest possible EMP (in a dead-man's trigger and/or remote fashion ) technology available into said devices. Only being 200 years more advanced, I doubt they have ways around this. Arm devices with nukes and dirty nukes as well, the smaller tactical types. Range could be an issue, maybe they could "laser" from a distance. Are we also assuming that they have a way to come into weapons range without our seeing them? Perhaps a trail in from the dark-side of the moon?
Rail-guns are not a newly developed technology. I imagine the tech is only getting smaller and larger for the caliber I think I saw one fired on a program about 10 years ago. It used a flat plastic disk with a steel ball bearing in the center. These are excellent projectile weapons.
Use ICBMS if for nothing else as a smoke screen/interference measure. Enable them with thermostats in the guidance/bomb compartment that would cause them to detonate if above a certain "safe" altitude. Give them a dead-man's trigger also set to a safe altitude.
What about these microwave weapons? I imagine those might be effective.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| The first thing they do is to establish a high orbit around the Earth and destroy all satellites and space stations. This I assume they could do easily |
Defensive measure, assuming there is some knowledge of this intent. Embed the largest possible EMP (in a dead-man's trigger and/or remote fashion ) technology available into said devices. Only being 200 years more advanced, I doubt they have ways around this. Arm devices with nukes and dirty nukes as well, the smaller tactical types. Range could be an issue, maybe they could "laser" from a distance. Are we also assuming that they have a way to come into weapons range without our seeing them? Perhaps a trail in from the dark-side of the moon?
Rail-guns are not a newly developed technology. I imagine the tech is only getting smaller and larger for the caliber I think I saw one fired on a program about 10 years ago. It used a flat plastic disk with a steel ball bearing in the center. These are excellent projectile weapons.
Use ICBMS if for nothing else as a smoke screen/interference measure. Enable them with thermostats in the guidance/bomb compartment that would cause them to detonate if above a certain "safe" altitude. Give them a dead-man's trigger also set to a safe altitude.
What about these microwave weapons? I imagine those might be effective.
Bwahahahaha... our technology is supreme.
The German's had that advantage too. Maybe not 200 years worth, but a supreme advantage never the less. I also must wonder about numbers ... the U.S. military, for all intensive purposes is the best equipped force on the planet, but, we hardly have the numbers to control it all (excluding nuke factors for the obvious)
I would also like to raise question about wild cards, is it not possible for any "earth group" to have alien allies?
If they want a "fair" fight what are they really here for? It's hard for me to imagine what resources would be isolated to earth that they would need so desperately other than water ... or atmosphere. There's plenty of big rocks in space with nobody on them for simple material needs ... ore/metal/mineral type. So, why here? Need a new home? If push comes to shove, as flying mentioned ... scorched earth policy?
QUOTE
I would agree with reverse engineering tech if you can provide me with a timeline.
Was Roswell in 1937? Who knows right? How about at least the length of time Area-51 has been around?
Still have to wonder ... why oh why would anyone want to invade earth, girls are easy? Figuring out how to hurt them is not as important to success as figuring out what it is that they want. A weird alien reason is not a sufficient condition, and just showing up to fight without scouting doesn't seem like the advanced intelligence sort of thing to do. Are these the only aliens out there, primitive conquering because we can types?
Meem,
Most of what you said has already been addressed. If you want to join in, you should read up on the previous posts.
Most of what you said has already been addressed. If you want to join in, you should read up on the previous posts.
QUOTE (Meem+Jul 20 2009, 03:32 AM)
... the U.S. military, for all intensive purposes is the best equipped force on the planet ...
The phrase is "intents and purposes" not "intensive".
It's a silly phrase that is actually a two-word redundancy ... since "purpose" and "intent" have virtually the same definition.
The phrase is "intents and purposes" not "intensive".
It's a silly phrase that is actually a two-word redundancy ... since "purpose" and "intent" have virtually the same definition.
For purposes of the upcoming "beachhead" attack are these Degravian's oxygen breathers and are they able to withstand the 15 psi or will their 60 psi eyeballs pop out? Do they come from a planet more or less massive than Earth?
QUOTE
It's a silly phrase that is actually a two-word redundancy ... since "purpose" and "intent" have virtually the same definition.
To me, it kind of points out the ignorance in assuming just because the "tech" is better, the war will be easily won. Like in Nam, Afghanistan, or Iraq. It's an ignorant remark for an ignorant idea. "We" haven't won any of those conflicts were tech was definitely "the upper hand." And in NK, if nukes were off the table, NK would crush US forces in "ground" combat, with sheer numbers.
The most effective weapons used in Iraq against U.S. forces are roadside bombs currently ... simple booby traps.
But anyways, it doesn't really matter about grammar, rules, and meaning now does it?
We allow them to "capture" chuck norris, who has actually infiltrated one of the ships, and let him do his business. 
On a more serious note, what are these alien's physical features? What is the melting point of their flesh (assuming they in a solid state?). Will conventional projectiles penetrate them? What frequencies of energy will be most harmful to them (can they be harmed with light, sound, this thing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Denial_System ?)
Perhaps outfit some soldiers with our newest of exoskeleton technologies equipped with some of our crude earth-weapons (flame throwers, miniguns, propelled explosives, etc).
These aliens would have taken time to reach their point of current technology. Which means before they had this technology, they must have been susceptible to lower-tech weaponry?
Better yet, have we found a means of boarding these invading ships yet?
On a more serious note, what are these alien's physical features? What is the melting point of their flesh (assuming they in a solid state?). Will conventional projectiles penetrate them? What frequencies of energy will be most harmful to them (can they be harmed with light, sound, this thing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Denial_System ?)
Perhaps outfit some soldiers with our newest of exoskeleton technologies equipped with some of our crude earth-weapons (flame throwers, miniguns, propelled explosives, etc).
These aliens would have taken time to reach their point of current technology. Which means before they had this technology, they must have been susceptible to lower-tech weaponry?
Better yet, have we found a means of boarding these invading ships yet?
Hmmm.... I have been away a bit from this thread. Now to resume the attack.
Meem
If you are going to join in, read the past posts and the rules.
uaafanblog
Excellent question.
For the purpose of this exercise, they are oxygen breathers and have generally an understandable biology (nothing weird). They are not the same as humans but are not more different from humans as crabs would be for example.
Alright... a month has passed and the Degravians have learned much from old Earth tv shows.
Now for the first part of our devastating attack.
*A massive radio, television and internet broadcast* (the internet broadcast is in the form of a viral attack... communications with the internet will now be one way only. We just saw Independence Day)
*A number of figures can be seen in front of a backdrop of stars. One is a alien that looks a lot like ET but more cuddly and kind looking. Another is a kindly human figure, with a long white beard and gentle loving eyes. The third is a better version of Seven of Nine*
*The kindly human looking alien speaks*
"People of Earth. We did not come to your planet to invade. Your governments saw our PeaceCrafts and attacked us without provocation. We only destroyed what we did in order to save lives... ours and yours. Of course, with our advanced spiritual powers, we could have easily defeated all of your governments but we believe in the freedom to chose your own destiny.
*The hot alien woman speaks*
"We have arrived to invite you to come and take your place amongst our peaceful and loving alliance of worlds. We only desire the fulfillment of all you might wish for. However, your evil governments only want you to continue paying taxes and working for them until you have nothing left to give. We come to free you from all that tyranny and offer you a universe of peace, wealth and pleasure. However, in order to do that we need your help"
*The nice cuddly alien speaks, with a voice that sounds a bit like Yoda*
"We need your help we do. Take arms against those who oppress you, you must. Fight for freedom you will, so that you can join us. If you win, you will be free. Take arms and fight against your governments. There are those who will try to talk against us.. they are spies for the evil ones. You must fight them all... you must never surrender."
*The program ends with stirring music*
Part deux a little later.
Meem
If you are going to join in, read the past posts and the rules.
uaafanblog
QUOTE
For purposes of the upcoming "beachhead" attack are these Degravian's oxygen breathers and are they able to withstand the 15 psi or will their 60 psi eyeballs pop out? Do they come from a planet more or less massive than Earth?
Excellent question.
For the purpose of this exercise, they are oxygen breathers and have generally an understandable biology (nothing weird). They are not the same as humans but are not more different from humans as crabs would be for example.
Alright... a month has passed and the Degravians have learned much from old Earth tv shows.
Now for the first part of our devastating attack.
*A massive radio, television and internet broadcast* (the internet broadcast is in the form of a viral attack... communications with the internet will now be one way only. We just saw Independence Day)
*A number of figures can be seen in front of a backdrop of stars. One is a alien that looks a lot like ET but more cuddly and kind looking. Another is a kindly human figure, with a long white beard and gentle loving eyes. The third is a better version of Seven of Nine*
*The kindly human looking alien speaks*
"People of Earth. We did not come to your planet to invade. Your governments saw our PeaceCrafts and attacked us without provocation. We only destroyed what we did in order to save lives... ours and yours. Of course, with our advanced spiritual powers, we could have easily defeated all of your governments but we believe in the freedom to chose your own destiny.
*The hot alien woman speaks*
"We have arrived to invite you to come and take your place amongst our peaceful and loving alliance of worlds. We only desire the fulfillment of all you might wish for. However, your evil governments only want you to continue paying taxes and working for them until you have nothing left to give. We come to free you from all that tyranny and offer you a universe of peace, wealth and pleasure. However, in order to do that we need your help"
*The nice cuddly alien speaks, with a voice that sounds a bit like Yoda*
"We need your help we do. Take arms against those who oppress you, you must. Fight for freedom you will, so that you can join us. If you win, you will be free. Take arms and fight against your governments. There are those who will try to talk against us.. they are spies for the evil ones. You must fight them all... you must never surrender."
*The program ends with stirring music*
Part deux a little later.
Not to get into MPants way but it's interesting and I've got nothing better to do at the moment.
The now unified governments of the world respond to this call for revolt by completely and immediately suspending civil rights (a good call in this case too ...).
Some small number of millions (lets say 9,117,922) of "terrorists" are killed in various capitals over several weeks of various attempts to help our new friends; but the overwhelming force of a unified world military dooms any sort of uprising.
Many billions of others continue to trust their governments and even though they are without civil rights adhere to the law.
Meem:
I assume you came to this board to learn something. You just did. Be thankful.
The now unified governments of the world respond to this call for revolt by completely and immediately suspending civil rights (a good call in this case too ...).
Some small number of millions (lets say 9,117,922) of "terrorists" are killed in various capitals over several weeks of various attempts to help our new friends; but the overwhelming force of a unified world military dooms any sort of uprising.
Many billions of others continue to trust their governments and even though they are without civil rights adhere to the law.
Meem:
I assume you came to this board to learn something. You just did. Be thankful.
QUOTE
Alright... a month has passed and the Degravians have learned much from old Earth tv shows.
How can that happen? All satellites were taken out form high orbit, are they watching and listening to analog from 30,000 km? Also, is this after the power infrastructure has been eliminated? How have the watched old earth television shows?
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Alright... a month has passed and the Degravians have learned much from old Earth tv shows. |
How can that happen? All satellites were taken out form high orbit, are they watching and listening to analog from 30,000 km? Also, is this after the power infrastructure has been eliminated? How have the watched old earth television shows?
"We have arrived to invite you to come and take your place amongst our peaceful and loving alliance of worlds. We only desire the fulfillment of all you might wish for. However, your evil governments only want you to continue paying taxes and working for them until you have nothing left to give. We come to free you from all that tyranny and offer you a universe of peace, wealth and pleasure. However, in order to do that we need your help"
"We need your help we do. Take arms against those who oppress you, you must. Fight for freedom you will, so that you can join us. If you win, you will be free. Take arms and fight against your governments. There are those who will try to talk against us.. they are spies for the evil ones. You must fight them all... you must never surrender."
And, the story takes a funny twist, first they were coming to kill us, a full
beachhead assault, now they need our less technologically advanced help? Sounds like a psychological warfare tactic, kill from within? The aliens have their own form of government that they wish us to take our place in, isn't that what all governments want? So, we must fight them too, because they want to govern us?
QUOTE
"There are those who will try to talk against us.. they are spies for the evil ones. You must fight them all... you must never surrender."
Sounds like trying to induce a mass paranoia and violence ... odd thing for peace loving aliens to do. What makes them any different then governments we already have?
My government regains control of the broadcast and cable networks and issues the following PSA:
"Citizens of Earth, one month ago we received proof that extraterrestrial life exists. We had hoped that our first contact would be a peaceful one. Instead, our extraterrestrial visitors have chosen a path of violence from the moment they arrived. They destroyed our satellite network within minutes of their arrival. This was taken as a declaration of war. We have attempted, with limited success, to show the aliens that we are not powerless. We estimate that they are preparing for a ground assault, but nothing is certain at this point. Their last transmission was engineered to generate suspicion and mistrust toward your government. They have chosen to withhold their true appearance, instead relying on our archetype of alien intelligence. Please bear with us as we attempt to find a peaceful resolution to our first contact. If it is war that they seek, they will know our determination and valor. If it is peace, they will see our kindness and generosity."
At the same time, our researchers attempt to figure out how the aliens beamed a pirate signal into our non-wireless cable networks.
"Citizens of Earth, one month ago we received proof that extraterrestrial life exists. We had hoped that our first contact would be a peaceful one. Instead, our extraterrestrial visitors have chosen a path of violence from the moment they arrived. They destroyed our satellite network within minutes of their arrival. This was taken as a declaration of war. We have attempted, with limited success, to show the aliens that we are not powerless. We estimate that they are preparing for a ground assault, but nothing is certain at this point. Their last transmission was engineered to generate suspicion and mistrust toward your government. They have chosen to withhold their true appearance, instead relying on our archetype of alien intelligence. Please bear with us as we attempt to find a peaceful resolution to our first contact. If it is war that they seek, they will know our determination and valor. If it is peace, they will see our kindness and generosity."
At the same time, our researchers attempt to figure out how the aliens beamed a pirate signal into our non-wireless cable networks.
My nation (portending that I’m the U.S.) would send a message to the aliens, assuming we can, that says “Cease and desist all aggressive actions and we will negotiate term for sharing our portion of the planet. If you continue we will nuke every square mile of the planet 8 times, so that there will be no traces of life or usable resources left”
P.S. I stole that idea. It’s actually an end game scenario that was proposed to the U.S. during the cold war in the event of an all out nuclear attack from Russia.
P.S. I stole that idea. It’s actually an end game scenario that was proposed to the U.S. during the cold war in the event of an all out nuclear attack from Russia.
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Jul 20 2009, 01:46 AM)
Hmmm.... I have been away a bit from this thread. Now to resume the attack.
Meem
If you are going to join in, read the past posts and the rules.
Motion seconded.
This is a bit of role playing, not a serious discussion.
Ahhh. Good to know.
Ahhh. Good to know.
Alright... a month has passed and the Degravians have learned much from old Earth tv shows. Now for the first part of our devastating attack.
In response to this broadcast, most developed nations will remind the people of the losses we have thus far suffered at their hands.
I honestly think uaafanblog's estimate of the number of people heeding the message is incredibly high. I can't imagine more than a few thousand people in the developed world, and of course almost no-one in developing nations.
Meem
If you are going to join in, read the past posts and the rules.
Motion seconded.
This is a bit of role playing, not a serious discussion.
QUOTE
For the purpose of this exercise, they are oxygen breathers and have generally an understandable biology (nothing weird). They are not the same as humans but are not more different from humans as crabs would be for example.
Ahhh. Good to know.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| For the purpose of this exercise, they are oxygen breathers and have generally an understandable biology (nothing weird). They are not the same as humans but are not more different from humans as crabs would be for example. |
Ahhh. Good to know.
Alright... a month has passed and the Degravians have learned much from old Earth tv shows. Now for the first part of our devastating attack.
In response to this broadcast, most developed nations will remind the people of the losses we have thus far suffered at their hands.
I honestly think uaafanblog's estimate of the number of people heeding the message is incredibly high. I can't imagine more than a few thousand people in the developed world, and of course almost no-one in developing nations.
QUOTE (Nihilist+)
My nation (portending that I’m the U.S.) would send a message to the aliens, assuming we can, that says “Cease and desist all aggressive actions and we will negotiate term for sharing our portion of the planet. If you continue we will nuke every square mile of the planet 8 times, so that there will be no traces of life or usable resources left”
While this is certainly an option that would be considered, it is not something we would threaten the aliens with, due to the fact that they are likely already confident of their ability to stop up.
Additionally, it would not work, according to the rules we've set up so far. The aliens merely wish a fight, not any material gains through conquest.
While this is certainly an option that would be considered, it is not something we would threaten the aliens with, due to the fact that they are likely already confident of their ability to stop up.
Additionally, it would not work, according to the rules we've set up so far. The aliens merely wish a fight, not any material gains through conquest.
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+)
At the same time, our researchers attempt to figure out how the aliens beamed a pirate signal into our non-wireless cable networks.
Not a big deal. They broadcast it using current broadcast standards. All cable stations which show local television would intercept this broadcast, as would all broadcast televisions.
For now, let's expend all of our resources on our current plan, to give it the best chance of success.
Not a big deal. They broadcast it using current broadcast standards. All cable stations which show local television would intercept this broadcast, as would all broadcast televisions.
For now, let's expend all of our resources on our current plan, to give it the best chance of success.
Aside from the whole satellite destroying bit, these aliens are fairly lame.
We send this message to the aliens:
We send this message to the aliens:
QUOTE
Since you obviously understand English, let's see what you're made of. It seems pretty cowardly to knock out our defense capabilities when you are obviously so advanced. Are you afraid that we might beat you with our spy satellites? State your intentions. If you want our resources, know that you will never get Earth in one piece. If you have no motive but destruction, beware. We do not tolerate aggression. You will pay for your crimes. Come fight us, if you dare, cowards.
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Jul 20 2009, 12:55 PM)
Aside from the whole satellite destroying bit, these aliens are fairly lame.
We send this message to the aliens:
Another transmission is broadcast shortly after this one.
"You know where our cities and defenses are concentrated. You know that the following area (an image of central Africa is included) lacks advanced defenses. Make your beachhead there and face our armies on the field of battle, if you dare. We will show you what stuff we are made of."
We send this message to the aliens:
QUOTE
Since you obviously understand English, let's see what you're made of. It seems pretty cowardly to knock out our defense capabilities when you are obviously so advanced. Are you afraid that we might beat you with our spy satellites? State your intentions. If you want our resources, know that you will never get Earth in one piece. If you have no motive but destruction, beware. We do not tolerate aggression. You will pay for your crimes. Come fight us, if you dare, cowards.
Another transmission is broadcast shortly after this one.
"You know where our cities and defenses are concentrated. You know that the following area (an image of central Africa is included) lacks advanced defenses. Make your beachhead there and face our armies on the field of battle, if you dare. We will show you what stuff we are made of."
Are you aware how cable stations work? The use satellites ... not lil 18 inch dishes ... really big ones. They then transmit the signal over cables. These stations would have to have another means to to receive and broadcast transmissions other that satellites. A digital broadcast signal or anolog? I'm not even sure cable systems have back up plans ... more or less just back up satellites. EBS (emergency broadcast system) I think major telecommunications companies have to comply with this ability so, I would assume that even though the "switch" has been flipped ... they still have to have an ability to provide transmission of such a broadcast in multi-formats ... or do they? I am not sure.
Ok, we are role playing, can I not role play the realist?
Ok, we are role playing, can I not role play the realist?
QUOTE (Meem+Jul 20 2009, 01:00 PM)
Ok, we are role playing, can I not role play the realist?
You can play, but you have to read what's happened already. 99% of our satellites have been shot down.
You can play, but you have to read what's happened already. 99% of our satellites have been shot down.
I get that ... but how then are they watching television from high geostationary/synchronous orbit? And don't forget, the power infrastructure was annihilated along with the satellites ... which are what cable networks use, that you broadcast your signal on?
How are people getting power to their T.V.s ? How are cable stations broadcasting without satellites? That is what I am saying, that doesn't make any sense if it's all been blown up .. right? How ... did they watch T.V.? He specifically said old T.V. shows. Did they download them? Have the original footage? I'm getting confused, after reading the old posts and seeing what is coming up in the new ones.
Don't get me wrong, I like your idea ... but it's hinged on broadcast and cable networks. Need power for one, and satellites for the other.
How are people getting power to their T.V.s ? How are cable stations broadcasting without satellites? That is what I am saying, that doesn't make any sense if it's all been blown up .. right? How ... did they watch T.V.? He specifically said old T.V. shows. Did they download them? Have the original footage? I'm getting confused, after reading the old posts and seeing what is coming up in the new ones.
Don't get me wrong, I like your idea ... but it's hinged on broadcast and cable networks. Need power for one, and satellites for the other.
QUOTE
My government regains control of the broadcast and cable networks and issues the following PSA:
QUOTE (Meem+Jul 20 2009, 01:21 PM)
I get that ... but how then are they watching television from high geostationary/synchronous orbit? And don't forget, the power infrastructure was annihilated along with the satellites ... which are what cable networks use, that you broadcast your signal on?
How are people getting power to their T.V.s ? How are cable stations broadcasting without satellites? That is what I am saying, that doesn't make any sense if it's all been blown up .. right? How ... did they watch T.V.? He specifically said old T.V. shows. Did they download them? Have the original footage? I'm getting confused, after reading the old posts and seeing what is coming up in the new ones.
Don't get me wrong, I like your idea ... but it's hinged on broadcast and cable networks. Need power for one, and satellites for the other.
The aliens weren't completely successful in knocking out our power grid. Most cities have their own broadcast tv stations. Remember that those signals can reach space fairly easily.
How are people getting power to their T.V.s ? How are cable stations broadcasting without satellites? That is what I am saying, that doesn't make any sense if it's all been blown up .. right? How ... did they watch T.V.? He specifically said old T.V. shows. Did they download them? Have the original footage? I'm getting confused, after reading the old posts and seeing what is coming up in the new ones.
Don't get me wrong, I like your idea ... but it's hinged on broadcast and cable networks. Need power for one, and satellites for the other.
The aliens weren't completely successful in knocking out our power grid. Most cities have their own broadcast tv stations. Remember that those signals can reach space fairly easily.
Ok, but that is an analog signal right? We have made the "switch" to digital broadcasting, and from what I heard form the news ... it's not working out all that great.
The aliens weren't completely successful in knocking out our power grid
I am confused again, is the power on or off?
QUOTE
4. Powerful lasers now aim at the electrical infrastructure. Knocking down power in all cities.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| 4. Powerful lasers now aim at the electrical infrastructure. Knocking down power in all cities. |
The aliens weren't completely successful in knocking out our power grid
I am confused again, is the power on or off?
QUOTE (Meem+Jul 20 2009, 01:36 PM)
Ok, but that is an analog signal right? We have made the "switch" to digital broadcasting, and from what I heard form the news ... it's not working out all that great.
I am confused again, is the power on or off?
That was a month ago. Also, how effective can lasers be on invisible underground power lines? The power is (back) on. Why would the aliens broadcast something if there was no-one to listen?
I am confused again, is the power on or off?
That was a month ago. Also, how effective can lasers be on invisible underground power lines? The power is (back) on. Why would the aliens broadcast something if there was no-one to listen?
QUOTE (Meem+Jul 20 2009, 06:36 PM)
Ok, but that is an analog signal right? We have made the "switch" to digital broadcasting, and from what I heard form the news ... it's not working out all that great.
I am confused again, is the power on or off?
You are ruinous. You *** think everything is done on your terms? You were asked twice to read through the thread and yet you continue to interrupt with inane comments.
If there is a god then you'll be banned.
I am confused again, is the power on or off?
You are ruinous. You *** think everything is done on your terms? You were asked twice to read through the thread and yet you continue to interrupt with inane comments.
If there is a god then you'll be banned.
QUOTE (MjolnirPants+Jul 20 2009, 05:27 PM)
I honestly think uaafanblog's estimate of the number of people heeding the message is incredibly high. I can't imagine more than a few thousand people in the developed world, and of course almost no-one in developing nations.
It was a crazy high estimate but I stuck with it because it is still such a ridiculously small percentage of Earth's population. The Degravians would certainly be aware of the numbers. And the fact that our governments would kill 9+ million humans ought to give them pause. Anyhow, that was my thought process ... in any case I think all scenario's agree that the ball is now in their court.
I'd disagree with any direct message to them at this time. No taunting or threatening or "reprezentin". Just stay busy preparing and let them take the next step.
It was a crazy high estimate but I stuck with it because it is still such a ridiculously small percentage of Earth's population. The Degravians would certainly be aware of the numbers. And the fact that our governments would kill 9+ million humans ought to give them pause. Anyhow, that was my thought process ... in any case I think all scenario's agree that the ball is now in their court.
I'd disagree with any direct message to them at this time. No taunting or threatening or "reprezentin". Just stay busy preparing and let them take the next step.
QUOTE (uaafanblog+Jul 20 2009, 01:58 PM)
You are ruinous. You *** think everything is done on your terms? You were asked twice to read through the thread and yet you continue to interrupt with inane comments.
If there is a god then you'll be banned.
That's mighty hefty of you. I am trying to clarify the terms as stated, first which was said to be ALL cities were without power ... and now that means I am trying to have everything my way? I don't know but ... but I find that pretty amazing that underground power-lines and power are instantly rebuilt in a month for ALL cities.
I guess I have no clue about logistics. All new high voltage power lines I see ... are above ground, the ones that carry power from supply to demand. "sub-stations" and transformer junctions, all above ground. Some cables for TV are ran underground, even some for power, but that is primarily in very small, or extremely new residential areas. Information hubs for cable/data/Internet/ networks are in buildings above ground. So, it appears that with a "few" good shots to totally disable the "network" would be possible.
And I find it funny that you would pretend to "believe" in God for a moment long enough to use God against me. What's that St. Augustine quote? Are you laughing? If we are going to get into preaching, I will play along with that game too, but my posts have been specifically about alien invasion ... until now where I have been challenged In God's name by someone that doesn't believe. That is inane babble sir.
Matthew 7:1-2
Judge not, that ye be not judged.
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Do you believe in God? Then why do you play his part?
If there is a god then you'll be banned.
That's mighty hefty of you. I am trying to clarify the terms as stated, first which was said to be ALL cities were without power ... and now that means I am trying to have everything my way? I don't know but ... but I find that pretty amazing that underground power-lines and power are instantly rebuilt in a month for ALL cities.
I guess I have no clue about logistics. All new high voltage power lines I see ... are above ground, the ones that carry power from supply to demand. "sub-stations" and transformer junctions, all above ground. Some cables for TV are ran underground, even some for power, but that is primarily in very small, or extremely new residential areas. Information hubs for cable/data/Internet/ networks are in buildings above ground. So, it appears that with a "few" good shots to totally disable the "network" would be possible.
And I find it funny that you would pretend to "believe" in God for a moment long enough to use God against me. What's that St. Augustine quote? Are you laughing? If we are going to get into preaching, I will play along with that game too, but my posts have been specifically about alien invasion ... until now where I have been challenged In God's name by someone that doesn't believe. That is inane babble sir.
QUOTE
Romans 2:3
And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Romans 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? |
Matthew 7:1-2
Judge not, that ye be not judged.
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Do you believe in God? Then why do you play his part?
QUOTE (uaafanblog+Jul 20 2009, 02:11 PM)
It was a crazy high estimate but I stuck with it because it is still such a ridiculously small percentage of Earth's population. The Degravians would certainly be aware of the numbers. And the fact that our governments would kill 9+ million humans ought to give them pause. Anyhow, that was my thought process ... in any case I think all scenario's agree that the ball is now in their court.
I'd disagree with any direct message to them at this time. No taunting or threatening or "reprezentin". Just stay busy preparing and let them take the next step.
I would challenge them directly in order to draw them out. Currently, they are sitting out of our effective range. Once they close in, we can target them with greater and greater effectiveness. Plus, I have a trick up my sleeve
I'd disagree with any direct message to them at this time. No taunting or threatening or "reprezentin". Just stay busy preparing and let them take the next step.
I would challenge them directly in order to draw them out. Currently, they are sitting out of our effective range. Once they close in, we can target them with greater and greater effectiveness. Plus, I have a trick up my sleeve
We aliens do not care for your God. We have our own God and It is angry.
However...
This caught our attention...
Response to your message is immediate.
"We see that you do not lack internal guldoneris. That is good. We would accept your challenge if you can assure us that your combined governments will abide by the agreements. Kublanarak will judge the victor."
However...
This caught our attention...
QUOTE
"You know where our cities and defenses are concentrated. You know that the following area (an image of central Africa is included) lacks advanced defenses. Make your beachhead there and face our armies on the field of battle, if you dare. We will show you what stuff we are made of."
Response to your message is immediate.
"We see that you do not lack internal guldoneris. That is good. We would accept your challenge if you can assure us that your combined governments will abide by the agreements. Kublanarak will judge the victor."
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Jul 20 2009, 03:28 PM)
"We see that you do not lack internal guldoneris. That is good. We would accept your challenge if you can assure us that your combined governments will abide by the agreements. Kublanarak will judge the victor."
Wait, does this mean that we can't blow you from the sky? Drat! We agree to the terms.
Are there any rules? No nukes, etc?
Wait, does this mean that we can't blow you from the sky? Drat! We agree to the terms.
Are there any rules? No nukes, etc?
QUOTE (Meem+Jul 20 2009, 01:00 PM)
Are you aware how cable stations work? The use satellites ... not lil 18 inch dishes ... really big ones. They then transmit the signal over cables. These stations would have to have another means to to receive and broadcast transmissions other that satellites.
And I suppose every local station has agreed to give cable providers a direct line into their broadcasting equipment? Because it makes so much more sense to buy, install and maintain new equipment and cable lines than it does to simply use an antennae at the cable hub to pick up existing local channels and re-transmit them over the cable line...
REMF, we've all been waiting for you to play the role of the realist since you got here. We'll like you much better once you actually start.
REMF, we've all been waiting for you to play the role of the realist since you got here. We'll like you much better once you actually start.
It was a crazy high estimate but I stuck with it because it is still such a ridiculously small percentage of Earth's population. The Degravians would certainly be aware of the numbers. And the fact that our governments would kill 9+ million humans ought to give them pause. Anyhow, that was my thought process ... in any case I think all scenario's agree that the ball is now in their court. I'd disagree with any direct message to them at this time. No taunting or threatening or "reprezentin". Just stay busy preparing and let them take the next step.
Well, the point is that by this time, we've seen enough of their tactics to figure out that a code of conduct seem to be in place. They seem to want to establish a beachhead, rather than simply bombarding us out of existence from space, which suggests a desire for combat. By granting them a beachhead, we can in effect, control their behavior.
And I suppose every local station has agreed to give cable providers a direct line into their broadcasting equipment? Because it makes so much more sense to buy, install and maintain new equipment and cable lines than it does to simply use an antennae at the cable hub to pick up existing local channels and re-transmit them over the cable line...
QUOTE
Ok, we are role playing, can I not role play the realist?
REMF, we've all been waiting for you to play the role of the realist since you got here. We'll like you much better once you actually start.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Ok, we are role playing, can I not role play the realist? |
REMF, we've all been waiting for you to play the role of the realist since you got here. We'll like you much better once you actually start.
It was a crazy high estimate but I stuck with it because it is still such a ridiculously small percentage of Earth's population. The Degravians would certainly be aware of the numbers. And the fact that our governments would kill 9+ million humans ought to give them pause. Anyhow, that was my thought process ... in any case I think all scenario's agree that the ball is now in their court. I'd disagree with any direct message to them at this time. No taunting or threatening or "reprezentin". Just stay busy preparing and let them take the next step.
Well, the point is that by this time, we've seen enough of their tactics to figure out that a code of conduct seem to be in place. They seem to want to establish a beachhead, rather than simply bombarding us out of existence from space, which suggests a desire for combat. By granting them a beachhead, we can in effect, control their behavior.
QUOTE (RobDegraves+)
Response to your message is immediate.
"We see that you do not lack internal guldoneris. That is good. We would accept your challenge if you can assure us that your combined governments will abide by the agreements. Kublanarak will judge the victor."
that makes sense to me. But what doesn't make sense to me is how both stations have power to do it, and all the people have power to watch it. The power infrastructure to ALL cities was destroyed. You do not come close to fixing this kind of problem in a month, and there are not magical underground power lines everywhere ...
Get real.
Are people using little hand crank generators that the government issued ... (giggle) Are all the local high-school track teams at the news and cable stations cycling away on power generating bikes? That's IT!
"We see that you do not lack internal guldoneris. That is good. We would accept your challenge if you can assure us that your combined governments will abide by the agreements. Kublanarak will judge the victor."
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+)
Wait, does this mean that we can't blow you from the sky? Drat! We agree to the terms. Are there any rules? No nukes, etc?
We haven't set forth any rules, so 'agreeing to the rules' is pretty meaningless, at this point. Shhh, just smile and nod.
We broadcast back that the Degravians must take their beachhead, it will not be given to them, but we will meet them in a head-on conflict once it's established.
We haven't set forth any rules, so 'agreeing to the rules' is pretty meaningless, at this point. Shhh, just smile and nod.
We broadcast back that the Degravians must take their beachhead, it will not be given to them, but we will meet them in a head-on conflict once it's established.
QUOTE
And I suppose every local station has agreed to give cable providers a direct line into their broadcasting equipment? Because it makes so much more sense to buy, install and maintain new equipment and cable lines than it does to simply use an antennae at the cable hub to pick up existing local channels and re-transmit them over the cable line...
that makes sense to me. But what doesn't make sense to me is how both stations have power to do it, and all the people have power to watch it. The power infrastructure to ALL cities was destroyed. You do not come close to fixing this kind of problem in a month, and there are not magical underground power lines everywhere ...
Get real.
Are people using little hand crank generators that the government issued ... (giggle) Are all the local high-school track teams at the news and cable stations cycling away on power generating bikes? That's IT!
I am sure the Earthlings can explain things to Meem
Meanwhile.... A response....
*The rules of engagement will be simple. No nuclear weapons are to be used. We have the power to annihilate your planet from beyond the orbit of Jupiter if we wanted to. We do not wish to see such a combative species simply eliminated. We want to conquer you in the old way.. in order to please Kublanarak so that he does not turn our guldoneris to ash. We will take the beachhead in 3 days time. Tremble with fear... mwhahahahahahahaha... *
Meanwhile.... A response....
*The rules of engagement will be simple. No nuclear weapons are to be used. We have the power to annihilate your planet from beyond the orbit of Jupiter if we wanted to. We do not wish to see such a combative species simply eliminated. We want to conquer you in the old way.. in order to please Kublanarak so that he does not turn our guldoneris to ash. We will take the beachhead in 3 days time. Tremble with fear... mwhahahahahahahaha... *
Meem thinks the aliens can't really make up their mind what to do, their agenda and actions seem to be swinging all over the place. The don't even have the presence of mind to remember things that they have already done, like destroy power infrastructure to all cities, then making a broadcast a month later. Did the aliens rebuild the power infrastructure for us? I didn't get that memo, because I know it's pretty factual that humans are not capable of rebuilding something that critical, that fast. Building a house/store/warehouse takes longer in most cases, and doesn't involve any "real" electrical engineering. You just don't slap power-lines together. Do these aliens have abilities like the cheese fest movie ... what was it over kill? Where they could control any form of mechanical device whether or not it was electronic? I think there was a spot where a lawnmower decided to become murderous ... pretty hilarious.
I would also like to note, for someone that doesn't think God is possible, and has never claimed to have evidence of a God. Why should this person have a God being, Kublanarak? I thought alien beings would be more advanced and know without question that there is no such thing as God, or Gods, and we humans were so very stupid for believing in any of "our religions?"
Do the aliens need use to believe in them so they can control us? Is this why they don't totally annihilate us? Cheap slave labor or something to that effect? I doubt earth is the only place they could go to find a material need, unless what they need are humans themselves.
I would also like to note, for someone that doesn't think God is possible, and has never claimed to have evidence of a God. Why should this person have a God being, Kublanarak? I thought alien beings would be more advanced and know without question that there is no such thing as God, or Gods, and we humans were so very stupid for believing in any of "our religions?"
Do the aliens need use to believe in them so they can control us? Is this why they don't totally annihilate us? Cheap slave labor or something to that effect? I doubt earth is the only place they could go to find a material need, unless what they need are humans themselves.
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Jul 22 2009, 02:13 AM)
*The rules of engagement will be simple. No nuclear weapons are to be used. We have the power to annihilate your planet from beyond the orbit of Jupiter if we wanted to. We do not wish to see such a combative species simply eliminated. We want to conquer you in the old way.. in order to please Kublanarak so that he does not turn our guldoneris to ash. We will take the beachhead in 3 days time. Tremble with fear... mwhahahahahahahaha... *
We would like to share with you an ancient human tradition. Before battle, we humans take an evening and partake in the sweet smoke of cannabis. We would be honored if you would join us in this ritual. For this purpose, we have left a stockpile of the plant near the beachhead zone. Feel free to analyze it before smoking it; even though it would be dishonorable to poison you in this manner.
We would like to share with you an ancient human tradition. Before battle, we humans take an evening and partake in the sweet smoke of cannabis. We would be honored if you would join us in this ritual. For this purpose, we have left a stockpile of the plant near the beachhead zone. Feel free to analyze it before smoking it; even though it would be dishonorable to poison you in this manner.
There should also be presented turkey legs and kegs of mead. This is almost starting to sound like thanksgiving not an invasion But wait a minute, what happened after the initial meet and greet? Maybe it is still an invasion!
But wait a minute, what happened after the initial meet and greet? Maybe it is still an invasion!
So, any progress here? Did the aliens leave in search of better herb?
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Jul 22 2009, 02:13 AM)
I am sure the Earthlings can explain things to Meem
Meanwhile.... A response....
*The rules of engagement will be simple. No nuclear weapons are to be used. We have the power to annihilate your planet from beyond the orbit of Jupiter if we wanted to. We do not wish to see such a combative species simply eliminated. We want to conquer you in the old way.. in order to please Kublanarak so that he does not turn our guldoneris to ash. We will take the beachhead in 3 days time. Tremble with fear... mwhahahahahahahaha... *
I'm with flyingbuttressman's plan so far. Offer them some dope. Who knows? It may be poisonous to them.
We agree to their 'rules' and the next move is theirs. They might notice an increase in industrial production if they're paying close attention and can determine things like that, but that would not be any sort of surprise, considering that we're about to engage in one of the largest land battles in the (human) history of warfare.
As for meem, he can sit and shout from the sidelines to his heart's content. If he's too lazy to read the thread, I'm not going to explain anything to him.
Meanwhile.... A response....
*The rules of engagement will be simple. No nuclear weapons are to be used. We have the power to annihilate your planet from beyond the orbit of Jupiter if we wanted to. We do not wish to see such a combative species simply eliminated. We want to conquer you in the old way.. in order to please Kublanarak so that he does not turn our guldoneris to ash. We will take the beachhead in 3 days time. Tremble with fear... mwhahahahahahahaha... *
I'm with flyingbuttressman's plan so far. Offer them some dope. Who knows? It may be poisonous to them.
We agree to their 'rules' and the next move is theirs. They might notice an increase in industrial production if they're paying close attention and can determine things like that, but that would not be any sort of surprise, considering that we're about to engage in one of the largest land battles in the (human) history of warfare.
As for meem, he can sit and shout from the sidelines to his heart's content. If he's too lazy to read the thread, I'm not going to explain anything to him.
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Jul 22 2009, 07:13 AM)
I am sure the Earthlings can explain things to Meem
Giving oneself a heart transplant is easier than successfully explaining anything to Meem.
Giving oneself a heart transplant is easier than successfully explaining anything to Meem.
I guess this means that the Degravians got bored and left the solar system?
No... sorry.. I have been reading a few things and so ... kind of lost track.
I will reprise.
Fear not.... or.. uh.. fear.. that's good too.
I will reprise.
Fear not.... or.. uh.. fear.. that's good too.
INVASION!!!
A thousand small ships launch from one of the mother ships. Each is about 100 meters long and 30 meters wide. The ships are nigh invisible (using chameleon like technology) and invisible to radar.
They approach the Earth on the night side and land in Africa at the designated contested zone.
Once landed, each ship transforms (think Transformers) into an individual battle machine. Vaguely humanoid... well... two legs and 4 arms... the battle machines have an assortment of weapons, from the almost prosaic heavy lasers, to automatic rocket launchers, PPC and one huge accelerator weapon mounted over the right shoulder.
The first thing each machine does is to spread out so each is at least 10 kilometers from the other. Obviously moving as though in constant communication with each other, the machines await the coming dawn.
A thousand small ships launch from one of the mother ships. Each is about 100 meters long and 30 meters wide. The ships are nigh invisible (using chameleon like technology) and invisible to radar.
They approach the Earth on the night side and land in Africa at the designated contested zone.
Once landed, each ship transforms (think Transformers) into an individual battle machine. Vaguely humanoid... well... two legs and 4 arms... the battle machines have an assortment of weapons, from the almost prosaic heavy lasers, to automatic rocket launchers, PPC and one huge accelerator weapon mounted over the right shoulder.
The first thing each machine does is to spread out so each is at least 10 kilometers from the other. Obviously moving as though in constant communication with each other, the machines await the coming dawn.
Time for my move:
Now that the aliens have landed, and since they have been shown to depend on robotic weaponry, we degrade the orbit of one of our bombs so that it re-enters right over the alien landing site in Africa. When the bomb hits an altitude of 400km, the weapon is detonated. The 5 megaton warhead generates an Electromagnetic Pulse, which affects the entirety of the alien landing zone.
Don't tell me that the aliens are magically "immune" to EMPs.
(edit)
The next phase is to "clean up" with a squadron of A-10 Thunderbolts.
QUOTE
We have made a handful of launches since the aliens were sighted, and all of them have contained a secondary payload. The final rocket stage of each launch has been modified to contain a fusion bomb. The rocket stage initially appears to fall back into the Earth's atmosphere, but small on-board thrusters have been gradually pushing it to a higher orbit. It remains unnoticed thanks to the large amount of space junk and debris.
Now that the aliens have landed, and since they have been shown to depend on robotic weaponry, we degrade the orbit of one of our bombs so that it re-enters right over the alien landing site in Africa. When the bomb hits an altitude of 400km, the weapon is detonated. The 5 megaton warhead generates an Electromagnetic Pulse, which affects the entirety of the alien landing zone.
Don't tell me that the aliens are magically "immune" to EMPs.
(edit)
The next phase is to "clean up" with a squadron of A-10 Thunderbolts.
Ahh, we've missed a few things during this invasion. Not to worry, however, I'll clear them up.
The first is the 50 motherships which are hit by specially equipped rockets long before reaching earth's orbit, containing boarding parties of well-armed and well-trained marines and special forces, wearing modern body armor over web-based spacesuits. Each team is tasked with fighting their way to the bridge of the alien ship, taking over and using the knowledge gleaned from recovered alien devices to attempt to take control of the ship and use it to attack other ships. If they fail, each team carries a single nuclear device, which will explode shortly after being removed from the backpack of the team member carrying it, or shortly after all team members' hearts stop (monitored by portable ecg's connected to small, wireless broadcasters).
As if that weren't bad enough, once the Degravians are finished dealing with the loss of 50 or more motherships and make it to orbit, quite a bit of that space junk floating around up there turns out to be magnetic mines, each containing yet another nuclear warhead. A hundred of those would deal yet another serious blow.
And then there's the fact that once their beachhead is established, we're going to nuke the *** out of them in a variety of ways (including flyingbuttressman's suggestion, as well as bre-buried nukes and ICBMs), to hell with any environmental concerns.
'Cause we're bastards like that.
The first is the 50 motherships which are hit by specially equipped rockets long before reaching earth's orbit, containing boarding parties of well-armed and well-trained marines and special forces, wearing modern body armor over web-based spacesuits. Each team is tasked with fighting their way to the bridge of the alien ship, taking over and using the knowledge gleaned from recovered alien devices to attempt to take control of the ship and use it to attack other ships. If they fail, each team carries a single nuclear device, which will explode shortly after being removed from the backpack of the team member carrying it, or shortly after all team members' hearts stop (monitored by portable ecg's connected to small, wireless broadcasters).
As if that weren't bad enough, once the Degravians are finished dealing with the loss of 50 or more motherships and make it to orbit, quite a bit of that space junk floating around up there turns out to be magnetic mines, each containing yet another nuclear warhead. A hundred of those would deal yet another serious blow.
And then there's the fact that once their beachhead is established, we're going to nuke the *** out of them in a variety of ways (including flyingbuttressman's suggestion, as well as bre-buried nukes and ICBMs), to hell with any environmental concerns.
'Cause we're bastards like that.
Ahem... sorry to spoil the victory party...
1. I never said that the mother ships (mind you, we prefer the term Primary Caregiver Ships or PCS) were coming to Earth. Only the small attack ones. The PCS's are still somewhere around the orbit of Jupiter.
2. I could post about Faraday cages built into our attack machines but it hardly matters. MjolnirPants attack with nukes will pretty well negate any point that would have... and also destroy Flyingbuttressman's A-10's.
Meanwhile... in the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter, boosters are being affixed to large rocks (on average between 100 meters to 1000 meters in size), and those are being aimed at the Earth... some will be orbited around ... some will be aimed directly at.
About a thousand of them are being readied. Launch in five.. four... three.. two .. one...
1. I never said that the mother ships (mind you, we prefer the term Primary Caregiver Ships or PCS) were coming to Earth. Only the small attack ones. The PCS's are still somewhere around the orbit of Jupiter.
2. I could post about Faraday cages built into our attack machines but it hardly matters. MjolnirPants attack with nukes will pretty well negate any point that would have... and also destroy Flyingbuttressman's A-10's.
Meanwhile... in the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter, boosters are being affixed to large rocks (on average between 100 meters to 1000 meters in size), and those are being aimed at the Earth... some will be orbited around ... some will be aimed directly at.
About a thousand of them are being readied. Launch in five.. four... three.. two .. one...
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Aug 6 2009, 12:50 PM)
Meanwhile... in the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter, boosters are being affixed to large rocks (on average between 100 meters to 1000 meters in size), and those are being aimed at the Earth... some will be orbited around ... some will be aimed directly at.
Ok, hold on a sec. Just because these aliens are advanced doesn't mean that they can violate the laws of physics. This "fleet" of rocks is probably as massive as, if not more massive than the alien fleet itself. You're telling me that the Degravians brought along a whole sh*tload of extra fuel so that they could launch a bunch of rocks at Earth? Also, any propulsion system used by the alien ships has a doubtful chance of being able to be applied to a rock. I will put it forward that the aliens will have to use traditional rocket motors to move these rocks. This will mean that the force required to move all those asteroids will require more fuel than the maximum cargo space of the alien fleet.
Also, the rocks would not reach Earth for at least 1 year given "normal" amounts of thrust. See above.
Ok, hold on a sec. Just because these aliens are advanced doesn't mean that they can violate the laws of physics. This "fleet" of rocks is probably as massive as, if not more massive than the alien fleet itself. You're telling me that the Degravians brought along a whole sh*tload of extra fuel so that they could launch a bunch of rocks at Earth? Also, any propulsion system used by the alien ships has a doubtful chance of being able to be applied to a rock. I will put it forward that the aliens will have to use traditional rocket motors to move these rocks. This will mean that the force required to move all those asteroids will require more fuel than the maximum cargo space of the alien fleet.
Also, the rocks would not reach Earth for at least 1 year given "normal" amounts of thrust. See above.
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Aug 6 2009, 12:50 PM)
Ahem... sorry to spoil the victory party...
Oh, we're not partying yet.
So then it's that much easier to destroy them, we don't even have to send in the marines or set off the nukes, just ram them with the titanium-tipped rockets, then aim at a new one, and when we start to run low on fuel, we'll simply aim at a big cluster and detonate the nukes when we get in the middle.
So then it's that much easier to destroy them, we don't even have to send in the marines or set off the nukes, just ram them with the titanium-tipped rockets, then aim at a new one, and when we start to run low on fuel, we'll simply aim at a big cluster and detonate the nukes when we get in the middle.
2. I could post about Faraday cages built into our attack machines but it hardly matters. MjolnirPants attack with nukes will pretty well negate any point that would have... and also destroy Flyingbuttressman's A-10's.
No, the a-10's don't show up until after the nuking is done. Oh, and any Faraday cages would have to be incredibly well-insulated from any internal electronics, given the power of such an EMP. I don't think it's practical for a humanoid robot, although I could see it being done on a spaceship or (really) large tank.
Are we forgetting the rules? Space vikings respect a powerful opponent, they don't throw hissy fits and blow them up when they loose! Even a devious opponent is no excuse for a space viking to lower itself to their standards...
Oh, we're not partying yet.
QUOTE
1. I never said that the mother ships (mind you, we prefer the term Primary Caregiver Ships or PCS) were coming to Earth. Only the small attack ones. The PCS's are still somewhere around the orbit of Jupiter.
So then it's that much easier to destroy them, we don't even have to send in the marines or set off the nukes, just ram them with the titanium-tipped rockets, then aim at a new one, and when we start to run low on fuel, we'll simply aim at a big cluster and detonate the nukes when we get in the middle.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| 1. I never said that the mother ships (mind you, we prefer the term Primary Caregiver Ships or PCS) were coming to Earth. Only the small attack ones. The PCS's are still somewhere around the orbit of Jupiter. |
So then it's that much easier to destroy them, we don't even have to send in the marines or set off the nukes, just ram them with the titanium-tipped rockets, then aim at a new one, and when we start to run low on fuel, we'll simply aim at a big cluster and detonate the nukes when we get in the middle.
2. I could post about Faraday cages built into our attack machines but it hardly matters. MjolnirPants attack with nukes will pretty well negate any point that would have... and also destroy Flyingbuttressman's A-10's.
No, the a-10's don't show up until after the nuking is done. Oh, and any Faraday cages would have to be incredibly well-insulated from any internal electronics, given the power of such an EMP. I don't think it's practical for a humanoid robot, although I could see it being done on a spaceship or (really) large tank.
QUOTE
Meanwhile... in the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter, boosters are being affixed to large rocks (on average between 100 meters to 1000 meters in size), and those are being aimed at the Earth... some will be orbited around ... some will be aimed directly at. About a thousand of them are being readied. Launch in five.. four... three.. two .. one...
Are we forgetting the rules? Space vikings respect a powerful opponent, they don't throw hissy fits and blow them up when they loose! Even a devious opponent is no excuse for a space viking to lower itself to their standards...
Nobody has mentioned the alien's flying crowbars. They take a 10 kgm iron bar, attach a couple of small steering motors and a transceiver, and drop them from low orbit. They churn them out by the tens of thousands.
They make dandy anti-armor and anti-personnel weapons.
They make dandy anti-armor and anti-personnel weapons.
QUOTE (AlexG+Aug 6 2009, 02:03 PM)
Nobody has mentioned the alien's flying crowbars. They take a 10 kgm iron bar, attach a couple of small steering motors and a transceiver, and drop them from low orbit. They churn them out by the tens of thousands.
They make dandy anti-armor and anti-personnel weapons.
I wouldn't do that. Gordon Freeman might get a hold of one of those. And we all know what he does to aliens.
They make dandy anti-armor and anti-personnel weapons.
I wouldn't do that. Gordon Freeman might get a hold of one of those. And we all know what he does to aliens.
In reverse order... sort of..
MP
No.. I have not forgotten the rules. You have yet to see what I will do with the rocks. We are however disappointed with man's willingness to have a proper battle... therefore we will have to force him to do so.
No.. I have not forgotten the rules. You have yet to see what I will do with the rocks. We are however disappointed with man's willingness to have a proper battle... therefore we will have to force him to do so.
So then it's that much easier to destroy them, we don't even have to send in the marines or set off the nukes, just ram them with the titanium-tipped rockets, then aim at a new one, and when we start to run low on fuel, we'll simply aim at a big cluster and detonate the nukes when we get in the middle.
You intend to send nukes to Jupiter?
1. You could hardly reach it.
2. You could hardly even see the ships from Earth.
3. You have no chance of getting one there intact enough to detonate.
I mentioned that they are very large robots. Plus... we are smarter than you.
flyingbuttressman
I mentioned that they are very large robots. Plus... we are smarter than you.
flyingbuttressman
This "fleet" of rocks is probably as massive as, if not more massive than the alien fleet itself. You're telling me that the Degravians brought along a whole sh*tload of extra fuel so that they could launch a bunch of rocks at Earth?
Assuming we used fuel such as you now use... it would be easy to make. Resources are abundant if you can fly through space with ease. Heck... just find some water (Europa might have quite a bit) and you have billions of tons of rocket fuel.
Secondly... our fleet would likely use antimatter or some derivative thereof. I can't see much else being used as fuel.
Given sufficient antimatter... that our ships could produce simply using matter and lots of energy.. the exhaust velocity of our rock pushing engines could be near the speed of light. We would want less than that of course, for simple control purposes.
However, count on the rocks getting there much faster than a year.
MP
QUOTE
Are we forgetting the rules? Space vikings respect a powerful opponent, they don't throw hissy fits and blow them up when they loose! Even a devious opponent is no excuse for a space viking to lower itself to their standards...
No.. I have not forgotten the rules. You have yet to see what I will do with the rocks. We are however disappointed with man's willingness to have a proper battle... therefore we will have to force him to do so.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Are we forgetting the rules? Space vikings respect a powerful opponent, they don't throw hissy fits and blow them up when they loose! Even a devious opponent is no excuse for a space viking to lower itself to their standards... |
No.. I have not forgotten the rules. You have yet to see what I will do with the rocks. We are however disappointed with man's willingness to have a proper battle... therefore we will have to force him to do so.
So then it's that much easier to destroy them, we don't even have to send in the marines or set off the nukes, just ram them with the titanium-tipped rockets, then aim at a new one, and when we start to run low on fuel, we'll simply aim at a big cluster and detonate the nukes when we get in the middle.
You intend to send nukes to Jupiter?
1. You could hardly reach it.
2. You could hardly even see the ships from Earth.
3. You have no chance of getting one there intact enough to detonate.
QUOTE
I don't think it's practical for a humanoid robot, although I could see it being done on a spaceship or (really) large tank.
I mentioned that they are very large robots. Plus... we are smarter than you.
flyingbuttressman
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| I don't think it's practical for a humanoid robot, although I could see it being done on a spaceship or (really) large tank. |
I mentioned that they are very large robots. Plus... we are smarter than you.
flyingbuttressman
This "fleet" of rocks is probably as massive as, if not more massive than the alien fleet itself. You're telling me that the Degravians brought along a whole sh*tload of extra fuel so that they could launch a bunch of rocks at Earth?
Assuming we used fuel such as you now use... it would be easy to make. Resources are abundant if you can fly through space with ease. Heck... just find some water (Europa might have quite a bit) and you have billions of tons of rocket fuel.
Secondly... our fleet would likely use antimatter or some derivative thereof. I can't see much else being used as fuel.
Given sufficient antimatter... that our ships could produce simply using matter and lots of energy.. the exhaust velocity of our rock pushing engines could be near the speed of light. We would want less than that of course, for simple control purposes.
However, count on the rocks getting there much faster than a year.
QUOTE (RobDegraves+)
Meanwhile... in the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter, boosters are being affixed to large rocks (on average between 100 meters to 1000 meters in size), and those are being aimed at the Earth... some will be orbited around ... some will be aimed directly at. About a thousand of them are being readied. Launch in five.. four... three.. two .. one...
In anticipation of a possible Degravian plot to cripple the planet's remaining military installations, the humans begin to evacuate all remaining personnel and resources, and set up contingency measures - however weak - to try to divert the path of any incoming asteroids.
In anticipation of a possible Degravian plot to cripple the planet's remaining military installations, the humans begin to evacuate all remaining personnel and resources, and set up contingency measures - however weak - to try to divert the path of any incoming asteroids.
QUOTE (RobDegraves+Aug 6 2009, 02:13 PM)
Assuming we used fuel such as you now use... it would be easy to make. Resources are abundant if you can fly through space with ease. Heck... just find some water (Europa might have quite a bit) and you have billions of tons of rocket fuel.
Secondly... our fleet would likely use antimatter or some derivative thereof. I can't see much else being used as fuel.
Given sufficient antimatter... that our ships could produce simply using matter and lots of energy.. the exhaust velocity of our rock pushing engines could be near the speed of light. We would want less than that of course, for simple control purposes.
However, count on the rocks getting there much faster than a year.
I still disagree. That's a hell of a lot of energy you would need. Plus, I would bet that the propulsion system used for the alien spacecraft is tied into the design of the spacecrafts themselves. You can't just throw a rocket booster at an asteroid and expect it to move. Plus, many large asteroids are not exactly solid, but more of a loose conglomeration of smaller asteroids. Trying to move it would be like trying to push around a blob consisting of loose marbles.
If we have to follow the laws of realism, so do the aliens.
Secondly... our fleet would likely use antimatter or some derivative thereof. I can't see much else being used as fuel.
Given sufficient antimatter... that our ships could produce simply using matter and lots of energy.. the exhaust velocity of our rock pushing engines could be near the speed of light. We would want less than that of course, for simple control purposes.
However, count on the rocks getting there much faster than a year.
I still disagree. That's a hell of a lot of energy you would need. Plus, I would bet that the propulsion system used for the alien spacecraft is tied into the design of the spacecrafts themselves. You can't just throw a rocket booster at an asteroid and expect it to move. Plus, many large asteroids are not exactly solid, but more of a loose conglomeration of smaller asteroids. Trying to move it would be like trying to push around a blob consisting of loose marbles.
If we have to follow the laws of realism, so do the aliens.
I am indeed trying to be realistic.
1. Though there are a number of asteroids that are loose stones.. there are thousands that are solid rock.
2.
I don't actually see any reason to suppose that.
Besides, there is no reason why we cannot adapt some boosters to drive rocks. Earth technology could likely do it now if enough was spent on the effort. It's one of the strategies that was proposed to move asteroids away from hitting Earth. We are just doing that in reverse.
1. Though there are a number of asteroids that are loose stones.. there are thousands that are solid rock.
2.
QUOTE
Plus, I would bet that the propulsion system used for the alien spacecraft is tied into the design of the spacecrafts themselves.
I don't actually see any reason to suppose that.
Besides, there is no reason why we cannot adapt some boosters to drive rocks. Earth technology could likely do it now if enough was spent on the effort. It's one of the strategies that was proposed to move asteroids away from hitting Earth. We are just doing that in reverse.
ok, sorry I'm not quoting, you'll just have to bear with me, here...
1. We'd be attacking the smaller ships before they reach an orbital distance from earth, not the motherships. Unless the motherships come close, in which case we would.
2. Humanoid robots are very difficult to make, and need as much of their internal space as possible for structural support, limiting the space available for a Faraday cage and the requisite insulation. I just can't see it happening, even with technology 200 years ahead of our own. Unless, of course, those robots are very slow and weak.
3. Ok, so long as the asteroids aren't for a war-winning orbital bombardment, I can see space vikings using them for something.... Bear in mind that you've already established (and most likely lost) your beachhead, so I'm a little leary of letting you retroactively use them to smash through any resistance on the way to the beachhead. However, if that's your plan, we can discuss it.
4. TheDoc is right, however this would have been done a long time ago. The military exists either thinly spread across the entire planet in thousands of small camps and integrated into major cities, with large concentrations at hardened facilities.
5. I'm with Rob on the feasibility of the asteroid weapon idea. It's really not all that difficult, just a really big task.
1. We'd be attacking the smaller ships before they reach an orbital distance from earth, not the motherships. Unless the motherships come close, in which case we would.
2. Humanoid robots are very difficult to make, and need as much of their internal space as possible for structural support, limiting the space available for a Faraday cage and the requisite insulation. I just can't see it happening, even with technology 200 years ahead of our own. Unless, of course, those robots are very slow and weak.
3. Ok, so long as the asteroids aren't for a war-winning orbital bombardment, I can see space vikings using them for something.... Bear in mind that you've already established (and most likely lost) your beachhead, so I'm a little leary of letting you retroactively use them to smash through any resistance on the way to the beachhead. However, if that's your plan, we can discuss it.
4. TheDoc is right, however this would have been done a long time ago. The military exists either thinly spread across the entire planet in thousands of small camps and integrated into major cities, with large concentrations at hardened facilities.
5. I'm with Rob on the feasibility of the asteroid weapon idea. It's really not all that difficult, just a really big task.
I'd have to agree with Rob regarding the ability to direct the asteroids. Assuming a 200 year difference in technology would perhaps mean easily manufactured (on the mother ship), highly efficient ion drive that can be simply bolted onto the dense asteroids they've chosen. A thousand-fold increase over current human ion drive technolgy doesn't seem unreasonable to me and seems like enough to get the buggers here pretty quick. Give 'em a nice start with some chemical rockets and I'd think we're talking 100m rock going at a couple of million miles an hour.
And dark tiny little rocks going at that speed aren't going to be easy to spot ... whatever they're doing with them.
And dark tiny little rocks going at that speed aren't going to be easy to spot ... whatever they're doing with them.
QUOTE (uaafanblog+Aug 6 2009, 10:50 PM)
And dark tiny little rocks going at that speed aren't going to be easy to spot ... whatever they're doing with them.
I can only suggest sending Dr. Evil into orbit in his "Big Boy" spaceship, to hopefully act as some sort of shield.
User posted image: User posted image
If that idea does not work, does earth still have a means of diverting it's satellites to potentially absorb some of the impact of oncoming rocks? Or perhaps sending up whatever is left of the missile and nuclear weapons cache? I'm sure the Russians have got a secret stockpile hidden away, that they have been keeping since the cold war... Obsolete maybe, but it should help do the job.
I can only suggest sending Dr. Evil into orbit in his "Big Boy" spaceship, to hopefully act as some sort of shield.
User posted image: User posted image
If that idea does not work, does earth still have a means of diverting it's satellites to potentially absorb some of the impact of oncoming rocks? Or perhaps sending up whatever is left of the missile and nuclear weapons cache? I'm sure the Russians have got a secret stockpile hidden away, that they have been keeping since the cold war... Obsolete maybe, but it should help do the job.
QUOTE (Michael J+Aug 7 2009, 12:10 AM)
If that idea does not work, does earth still have a means of diverting it's satellites to potentially absorb some of the impact of oncoming rocks? Or perhaps sending up whatever is left of the missile and nuclear weapons cache? I'm sure the Russians have got a secret stockpile hidden away, that they have been keeping since the cold war... Obsolete maybe, but it should help do the job.
At this point I think the big mystery is what they're going to do with those rocks.
IIRC all of earth's satellites are pretty much toast already. Not that a 4,000lb chunk of aluminum is going to do much to dissuade a 100m piece of nickel/iron travelling at 2,000,000 miles an hour.
As to the what (since the Degravians aren't going to bomb us with them) ...
Is the combined mass of the asteroids going to be applied to affect Earth or the Moon perhaps? Drawing the Moon out only slightly would create some pretty significant climate effects here on Earth that might prove difficult for humans to respond to in any manner.
It seems possible but since their little war is more about kicking our *** and taking names versus just wiping us out, then I have to assume this isn't the plan.
Of course, perhaps they have exact numbers and simulations on their advanced computers that they can devastate our food production without leaving the Earth in such a bad state that they can't inhabit it. Maybe they just want to show how much smarter than us they are?
The only other thing that occurs to me is that they'll use the things as some sort of diversion for some other attack and they just want us to show our nuclear hand ... which is still quite significant.
At this point I think the big mystery is what they're going to do with those rocks.
IIRC all of earth's satellites are pretty much toast already. Not that a 4,000lb chunk of aluminum is going to do much to dissuade a 100m piece of nickel/iron travelling at 2,000,000 miles an hour.
As to the what (since the Degravians aren't going to bomb us with them) ...
Is the combined mass of the asteroids going to be applied to affect Earth or the Moon perhaps? Drawing the Moon out only slightly would create some pretty significant climate effects here on Earth that might prove difficult for humans to respond to in any manner.
It seems possible but since their little war is more about kicking our *** and taking names versus just wiping us out, then I have to assume this isn't the plan.
Of course, perhaps they have exact numbers and simulations on their advanced computers that they can devastate our food production without leaving the Earth in such a bad state that they can't inhabit it. Maybe they just want to show how much smarter than us they are?
The only other thing that occurs to me is that they'll use the things as some sort of diversion for some other attack and they just want us to show our nuclear hand ... which is still quite significant.
PhysOrg scientific forums are totally dedicated to science, physics, and technology. Besides topical forums such as nanotechnology, quantum physics, silicon and III-V technology, applied physics, materials, space and others, you can also join our news and publications discussions. We also provide an off-topic forum category. If you need specific help on a scientific problem or have a question related to physics or technology, visit the PhysOrg Forums. Here you’ll find experts from various fields online every day.
To quit out of "lo-fi" mode and return to the regular forums, please click here.