To add comments or start new threads please go to the full version of: After death
PhysForum Science, Physics and Technology Discussion Forums > General Sci-Tech Discussions > Puzzling questions

rabindraadhi
I heard that as soon as man or animal dies, there is sudden decrease in small mass of the body. Is it true, if yes where does it go?
amrit
Dear Rabindraadhi

Hi
I carried out that experiment back in 1987. After death the additional density of cosmic space around living organism get disolved back into cosmic space, this causes the loos of mass.

The total energy (E) of a living organism can be described by Einstein formula as: E = (m + dm) cc

where m is mass of dead organism and dm is difference of a mass between living and dead organism, c is a speed of light

see more below

yours, amrit, founder of SpaceLife Institute, Italy
my email is : spacelife@libero.it

ENERGY FLUCTUATIONS BETWEEN SPACE AND LIFE

Today science is still considering life as a phenomena that has developed on the planet earth. This approach has its routs in the "geocentric principle" which sees earth as the centre of the universe.

Earth is a relatively small planet of the solar system and dimensions of the universe are incalculable. All the processes on the planet are a “universal processes”, they run in the universe. The fact that they run on the planet is secondary. This approach can be called “universal principle”.


Seeing the phenomena of life from the point of the “universal principle” opens new perspectives. Life is considered as a phenomena that develops into universal space. One has to take in account that studying life only as a result of “bio-chemical” phenomena in a living organism is insufficient. Life has to be seen as a phenomena developed in the universal space. According to the “universal principle” living organism is an open system that exchanges energy with the universal space.


Existence of some energy fluctuations between universal space and life in a form of bio-photons become has been discovered by several researchers of "International Institute of Biophysics" http://www.lifescientists.de/


According to the experiment with earthworms (Sorli, 1987-90) and rats (Kawada, Inomata, before 1997, exact date not known) at the time of death there is a strong energy fluctuation between living organism and universal space that can be detected as a “weight difference” at the time of death.


Preliminary experiment with growing yeast in a mass close system (Sorli 1987-90) shows that in a growing phase a living organism is taking the energy from the cosmic space and integrating it into organism. The mass of the close system where yeast grow into anaerobic conditions is increasing.


The total energy (E) of a living organism can be described by Einstein formula as: E = (m + dm) cc

where m is mass of dead organism and dm is difference of a mass between living and dead organism

dm is the result of the energy fluctuations between universal space and living organism and is characteristic only for the living organism. After the death of the organism this energy fluctuations are interrupted.


Universal space has no entropy. No one ever prove space has some entropy. There is also no scientific theory that would predict cosmic space has some entropy. The energy that build up cosmic space does not follow the second law the thermodynamics. It follows only the first law. Matter follows the second law. About the subject we have an article accepted for publishing in Frontier Perspectives (Philadelphia, Templeton University) with my research fellow Davide Fiscaletti.


Evolution of life is a negentropy process that develops towards non entropy state of the universal space. All over the universe matter has an intrinsic tendency to develop into life. The speculation that evolution of life is based on some “energy fluctuations” between universal space and matter makes sense.


Here has to be well defined that universal space is a-temporal. Time exists only as a change (movement) of stellar objects and elementary particles into a-temporal cosmic space. We are born, we live and we die in the same identical a-temporal universal space.


Cosmic space is a-temporal, time is a flow of irreversible material change in a-temporal space. Change does not run in time, change itself are time. Clocks run in a-temporal space, with clocks we measure duration of all change. We are born, we live and we die in the same identical a-temporal space. In the universe phenomena can be divided into two basic groups: temporal phenomena and a-temporal phenomena. For temporal phenomena to exist a movement of elementary particles (time) in a-temporal space is needed: for example light is a temporal phenomena, for its existence the movement of photon through the space is needed. Human body including his/her mind are temporal phenomena, the result of the movement of billions of particles that build up human organism. For a-temporal phenomena to exist no movement of particles (time) in a-temporal space is needed. Gravitation is a-temporal carried directly by the density of a-temporal space, consciousness is a-temporal as well. Prof. Penrose considers consciousness as a result of quantum gravity acting on the neurons of the brain. A-temporal cosmic space is a non entropy state of energy, it has no entropy, this means no change and no time.


Recent research on cosmology (Sorli, Fiscaletti 2005) shows that in black holes matter transforms into energy of universal space and that in Active Galactic Nucleus (AGN) energy of universal space transforms back into matter. The speculations about “the beginning” are irrelevant now, universe is a self-renewing system in a permanent dynamic equilibrium, there was no beginning and no end. Evolution of life is a consisten part of the cosmic dynamics. Cosmic space plays an active role into functionig of the living organism and evolution of life as well.


The experiment with earth-worms is essential for this deeper understanding of the universe and life.


About experiment I published in my book (Timelessness) in 1990 and in several articles in scientific journals:

1. Sorli A. (1997). Gravitational Field Associated with Life?

Newsletter of Monterey Institute for Study of Alternative Healing Arts, California, NR. 18-19

2. Sorli A. (2001). Additional Roundness of Space-Time and Unknown Vacuum Energies in Living Organisms, Frontier Perspectives, Vol 10, Num 2

3. Sorli A (2002). The Additional Mass Of Life, Journal Of Theoretics, Vol 4, Num 2 http://www.journaloftheoretics.com/Article...Sorli-final.htm


In this experiment were controlled:

- temperature in control and experimental test tubes

- pressure in the control and experimental test tubes


Temperature and pressure in control and test tube remained unchanged during the entire experiment. Pressure was 1 atm, temperature of both test tubes remain as the air in lab. Eventual change of temperature could change the condensation of the wetness in the air on the test tubes. Eventual change of the pressure could be a cause for the gas to pass the glass and went out.

With controlling temperature and pressure this two possibilities were excluded.


Eventual change in mass could also be caused by the condensation of the wetness of the air on the surface of the test tubes if the test tubes would have different size. As the form and the size of the control and experimental test tubes were the same the change of the wetness on the surface of the control and test tube was the same during entire experiment. So the change of the wetness in the lab was not the cause of the mass difference.


The remaining possibility for this result could be a mistake caused by the "methodology of the measurement". To avoid this factor were measured 5 grams, 30 grams, 50 grams and 70 grams of earthworms.


The other possibility of the result is a “human factor”. For years I was speculating about that possibility.


Dr. Kaoru Kawada from Japan got the same results with the rats. Rats closed in a plastic container loose the mass at the time of death. He works under the guidance of Dr. Shiuji Inomata. Dr. Inomata informs about their experiment the editor of the journal Newsletter of Monterey Institute for Study of Alternative Healing Arts by fax back in 1997. ( I published in this journal an article about the experiment in 1997 )


After being informed about Kawada and Inomata results I was more convinced that there was no “human factor”.


During poisoning of the worms with formaldehyde I have seen “flashes” of light. I could not believe that. But I speculated that at the time of death of living organism emission of the photons must be extremely strong; one can see it with the eyes. Experiments of Prof. Slawinski confirm my intuition.


Prof. Slawinski experiment shows that bio-photon emission at the time of death is increasing for 10-1000 times.

-Slawinski J. (2005). Photon Emission from Perturbed and Dying Organisms: Biomedical Perspectives, Research in Complementary And Classical Natural Medicine, Vol 12. Num 2

http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produ...ename=83971.pdf


In this experiment another unusual effect was observed. Immediately after the poisoning 70 grams of worms the mass is increasing for around 60-80 micrograms; as that the worms try to survive by “absorbing” some more energy of the cosmic space. This was really impressive. Is shows that living organism is in active energy exchange with cosmic space. The mass was bigger for 60-80 grams for around 5 minutes and than was decreasing in 15 minutes below 70 micrograms.


In 1986 I came to the idea to measure the weight at the time of death because my thesis was that life is deeply related to the cosmic space that is a non entropy state of energy. I speculate that maybe gravitational force (that is carried directly by the cosmic space) acts differently on the living organism than on the same dead organism.


When I got results there was no theoretical basis for this results. Today there is a basis: “A-temporal Physical Space” (ATPS). Gravitational force is carried directly by its density. In a living organism there is an additional density of ATPS. This additional density plays an active role into functioning of a living organism and plays also an active role in the evolution of life as well.

- Sorli A., Sorli I. (2004). Mathematical Time And Physical Time In The Theory Of Relativity, Electronic Journal of Theoretical Physics, Vol. 1, Num 4 http://www.ejtp.com/articles/ejtpv1i4p25

- Sorli A., Fiscaletti D. (2005). Active Galactic Nucleus As a Renewing Systems Of the Universe, Electronic Journal of Theoretical Physics, Vol. 2, Num 6 www.ejtp.com

- Sorl A., Sorli I. (2005) From Space-time to A-Temporal Physical Space, Vol 14, Num 1, Frontier Perspectives (Templeton University, Philadelphia)


Dear Rabindraadhi I'm kindly asking you if you have precise balances in your lab and would have interest to repeat this experiment, that for sure will open new perspectives into understanding of the life and universe itself. I could come to visit your lab for a few days and repeat experiment together with your experts.

Hope to here from you soon.

Yours Sincerely, Amrit Sorli

blink.gif
Nessus
Hey thats brilliant, a technique to tell if something is living and not living. So is a virius living? Some people say no some say yes, but with this 'in built' tool in the universe you can answer that question really quick!
amrit
biggrin.gif Hi
I think that by virus the dm is smaller or even does not exist. We have to measure that. It was measured by man, worms, rats.
That's already something.

yours, amrit
Nessus
so when exactly is this 'universal' death then? you claim that the mass changes when something goes from 'living' matter to 'dead' matter, so does this happen when the heart stops? or when rigor mortis sets in? when there's 'irreversible' damage to the brain?
Guest_neurohacker
Ha Ha Ha

What a Big B.S

http://scienceweek.com/2005/sw050429-2.htm

NEUROBIOLOGY: ON NEUROTRANSMITTERS

The following points are made by Steven E. Hyman (Current Biology 2005
15:R154):

1) The nervous system processes sensory information and controls behavior by
performing an enormous number of computations. These computations occur both
within cells and between cells, but it is intercellular information
processing, involving complex neural networks, that provides the nervous
system with its remarkable functional capacity. The principal cells involved
in information processing are neurons, of which there are hundreds, if not
thousands of individual cell types based on morphology, location,
connectivity and chemistry [1]. In addition to neurons, the other major kind
of cell in the nervous system is the glia, which play critical support roles,
but which are increasingly seen to function in some aspects of information
processing.

2) To provide some idea of the magnitude of the information processing
capacity of the human brain, its 10^(11) neurons make, on average, about 1000
connections or synapses, at which communication occurs with other neurons.
The range of synapses per cell is very large; the Purkinje cells of the
cerebellum may receive 100,000 contacts from input cells. Overall the human
brain may contain between 10^(14) and 10^(15) synaptic connections.

3) The diverse chemical substances that carry information between neurons are
called "neurotransmitters". Otto Loewi (1873-1961) discovered the first
neurotransmitter in 1926 when he demonstrated that acetylcholine carried a
chemical signal from the vagus nerve to the heart that slowed the cardiac
rhythm. Since that time, more than one hundred substances and a far larger
number of receptors have been implicated in synaptic transmission. Because of
the remarkably diverse effects of neurotransmitter-mediated signaling at the
receptor and post-receptor levels, the number of neurotransmitters, as large
as it is, vastly understates the complexity of signaling in the brain.

4) In the nervous systems of higher animals, only a small fraction of neurons
are directly involved in transducing sensory information or controlling
output cells, such as endocrine, smooth muscle or striated muscle cells. The
vast majority form what Nauta [2] called the great intermediate net, which
underlies the extraordinary computational power of the brain. The complex set
of neuronal networks interposed between input and output neurons form the
basis, inter alia, for learning complex motor sequences, for thought,
emotion, for "top down" behavioral control and, in humans, for such functions
as language, writing poetry and planning wars.

5) In addition to performing present-oriented computations, the nervous
system is plastic; it alters itself (forms memories) as it processes
information, so that it can respond more adaptively in the future. The
subtlety and complexity of the brain's outputs, along with its ability to
change in response to new information, is supported by a rich set of
mechanisms for cell-cell communication involving, at an anatomical level,
intricate but plastic local connections, larger scale neural circuits, and
overlying global regulatory systems; and at the chemical level, a large
number of neurotransmitters with highly diverse mechanisms for decoding their
informational content.[3-5]

References (abridged):

1. Masland, R.H. (2004). Neuronal cell types. Curr. Biol. 14, R497-R500

2. Nauta, W. (1986). Fundamental Neuroanatomy. (New York: Freeman)

3. Nestler, E.J., Hyman, S.E. and Malenka, R.J. (2001). Molecular
Neuropharmacology: Foundation for Clinical Neuroscience. (New York: McGraw
Hill)

4. Malenka, R.C. (2003). The long-term potential of LTP. Nat. Rev. Neurosci.
4, 923-926

5. Trachtenberg, J.T., Chen, B.E., Knott, G.W., Feng, G., Sanes, J.R.,
Welker, E. and Svoboda, K. (2002). Long-term in vivo imaging of
experience-dependent synaptic plasticity in adult cortex. Nature 420, 788-794

Current Biology http://www.current-biology.com

--------------------------------
Guest_neurohacker
when a man or animal dies thats it

no god or EEG in said body what is left is sh?? and only sh?? of said past body.



neurohacker
Ash
QUOTE (rabindraadhi+Dec 18 2005, 10:35 AM)
I heard that as soon as man or animal dies, there is sudden decrease in small mass of the body. Is it true, if yes where does it go?

Mass decreases all the time in living things. It takes energy to keep things living, unless you're constantly taking in energy, your mass will decrease. A small sudden decrease in mass is nothing mysterious in a dead person or any other person. It happens. The end.

(PS- How is this news?)
Good Elf
Hi All,

I do not think that you can weigh a soul... sounds dumb to me. the loss of some mass is not a convincing evidence of life after death.

Consider this alternate proposition. That the information never dies?? Stephen Hawking recently proposed that when something is dumped into a Black Hole even though the object is destroyed the "information" is preserved on the surface of a Black Hole in the form of the excitations of a "super-string". The theory is quite interesting and the surface area of the black hole seems to contain an awful lot of "data". This can "leak" out of a black hole over time.

It seems to me though I do not believe in a "personal" God... there may be mechanisms that preserve information in our Universe and this could be thought of as a sort of "computer simulation" of what happened inside the Universe over the life of the Universe. Every point and object in space "touches" the hypersurface of our "stringy" Universe and we are "embedded" in it. Our life and all our activities may be contributing to the modes of vibration on the surface of our Universe and encoded "temporally" there as a template of our lives. In life a small amount of our energy may be being used to "excite" the hypersurface into sympathetic oscillation. When everything else has "faded away" that "imprint" may still remain suspended in higher dimensions like a holographic soliton on the surface of the Universe till the end of time itself.

This "information" may be thought of as "intelligence" since in organization it mimics every atom and every nuance of our behavior through life. Perhaps even down to the very DNA strands in our being. At that level of the Universe we may have a "perfect" analog of "essence". Many years ago I saw a program on TV where a single spot of food dye was place in a large transparent cylinder of glycerin. The core was a solid perspex cylinder to which was attached a winding handle. After the introduction of the dye the winding handle was rotated dozens of times... the dye was drawn into uneven and wavy streaks and got fainter and fainter as the winding was increased... until the color of the dye was completely lost in the large volume of glycerin. Then the announcer wound the handle in the opposite direction and as if magically the spot of dye eventually came completely back together again indicating that you can indeed "unscramble eggs". Obviously you need the right system for this to happen... but who knows? Maybe this is the "right system".

Cheers
He_Who_Knows
I have to agree with good elf, souls cannot be weighted. But everything else he said is either a horrible mistake or a big fat lie.

When you die your soul leaves your body and takes enough mass with it in order to form your 'new' body. We all reincarnate right after death(we usually come back as insects or small invertebrate animals), thus the loss of mass is small. I dont know about all that string mumbo-jumbo but its surely fake. Our souls have existed since the beggining and will exist till the end of time, WE are the makers and holders of universal history.
*vanadesse
^ so what happens to the animals who are 'reborn' as humans? I somehow can't see the mass of an entire human body being obtained from a tiny bumblebee. Also, what about humans who are 'reborn' as larger animals? Wouldn't people notice if someone who just died lost about 80 pounds between death and burial? huh.gif
Insyght
QUOTE
When you die your soul leaves your body and takes enough mass with it in order to form your 'new' body.


How?

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
When you die your soul leaves your body and takes enough mass with it in order to form your 'new' body.


How?

we usually come back as insects or small invertebrate animals


Why?

QUOTE
Our souls have existed since the beggining and will exist till the end of time


Can you give scientific proof of this?
Good Elf
Hi "He Who Knows", *vanadesse and Insyght,

QUOTE (He_Who_Knows Posted on Dec 19 2005+ 03:19 PM)
I have to agree with good elf, souls cannot be weighted. But everything else he said is either a horrible mistake or a big fat lie.

In the "real" world things often are not as simple as you portray. Not so much a mistake or lie but extrapolating the "truth"...
Hawking cracks Black Hole Paradox
Information Paradox Solved? If So, Black Holes Are 'Fuzzballs'

Perhaps I should "qualify" that statement of mine. It is not "truth" or "something to believe in" it is "Scientific Speculation" (Science Fiction or "Friction" in this case). This site is Physics and it is OK to speculate. I take all your statements as speculation as well. The moment we get some real evidence I am willing to revise all statements. You never really find anything unless you actually look for it.

For instance... the first talking bumblebee will clinch it for me.

A little more light reading (the former position)....
QUOTE (http://library.thinkquest.org/27930/stringtheory7.htm+)
Black Holes as Repositories of Information

A principle called quantum determinism states that a sufficiently (nearly infinitely) powerful computer, when provided with the wave-functions of all the particles in the universe, can predict the relative probabilities of their positions and interactions for any point in the past or future. However, black holes present a twist in this reasoning - they collect vast amounts of matter whose particles of course each have wave-functions. The question is, is the information contained in these wave-functions lost forever in the black hole, or can it somehow reemerge? Before the realization of Hawking radiation, physicists theorized that the information was not lost, but it was locked away into a region of space inaccessible to anyone outside the region. However, Hawking radiation implies that a black hole's mass will slowly decrease as it radiates, thus decreasing the distance from the center of the black hole to the event horizon and re-revealing regions of space once locked away behind the event horizon. Now the question is: does the information absorbed by the black hole then reemerge? Some, including Hawking, maintain that the information is eliminated from the universe, thereby adding a new degree of randomness to the universe and destroying even quantum determinism. Others maintain that the information is not lost, but instead is contained in the branes that make up the black hole itself.

Ed Witten's Homepage
Nothing is "forever" in theory but it is possible that something actually is... we humans must live with paradox and learn to like it.
QUOTE
"Alice laughed: 'There's no use trying,' she said; 'one can't believe impossible things.' 'I daresay you haven't had much practice,' said the Queen. 'When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.'" — from Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll


Cheers
Insyght
Good Elf,

Interesting stuff about the black holes. I'm not sure I see the relationship with the conciousness though.

I assume you are basing your theory on superstring? I don't know much about them - only a mere concept, but from what I gather - you take a atom and look smaller and smaller and smaller and at the bottom of the scale you have strings which move in multiple dimensions 10?

Therefore, the strings them selves would define what the matter looks like.

Death would result in changes in the strings them selfs - not the actual atoms right?
Interaction between the strings would change the form of the matter. I would not make sense for it to happen the other way round.

My problem with the theory is that when your body is gone (lets say burned up)... the body that is left, is still represented by strings at the lowest level right?

If a few atoms here and there are consumed by a plant, then the strings are now part of the plant. That does infer a transfer of soul to the plant surely?

When a new life if conceived, the first cell is created and starts to divide, arn't these cells them selves, just a patern of strings anyways - dontated from the parents?

I don't see nothing to do with some previous life, or the residual strings information from some previous life form.

If I have totally missed the concept, please correct.

Regards.

Good Elf
Hi Insyght,

"I beg your pardon, I never promised you a Rose Garden..." he he he! (... as the song goes anyway).
QUOTE (Insyght Posted on Dec 20 2005+ 03:48 PM)
My problem with the theory is that when your body is gone (lets say burned up)... the body that is left, is still represented by strings at the lowest level right?
If a few atoms here and there are consumed by a plant, then the strings are now part of the plant. That does infer a transfer of soul to the plant surely?
When a new life if conceived, the first cell is created and starts to divide, arn't these cells them selves, just a patern of strings anyways - dontated from the parents?

Strings I am speaking about are not something you buy in a department store hardware section or something "donated" on some hot and sweaty "interlude" with your girlfriend. What I am saying is this... everything you have done ... everything you will do... could be encoded temporally (in time) as a series of "wave functions". These entities are "hanging about forever". The strings are more like waves (it is a paradigm) which encode, as by a template, from the "material" we are composed of. Now I know we are ultimately not composed of material anyway, all the more reason to understand this as a "coherent" phenomena that is not dissipated with time simply "enfolded" in time like that glycerin and dye thingy I was speaking about above. The argument about Stephen Hawking and Black Holes is really an acknowledgment that "he" at least needs this concept to enable a consistent view of our Universe to be formulated. The "vibrations" impressed on everything could be on the hyper-surface of a Black Hole but you are even more likely to find them in your bathroom or in your car on the way to the office... but just moved "dimensionally" a very tiny distance in space from where you think your bathroom or car really is into higher dimensions.

This is a quantum realm that can contain "quanta" such as photons and other temporary phenomena in the six deflated dimensions that reside there (according to string theory... my interpretation of it... long story). Now unless they are "inflated by spin energy"... they will not have those quantum particles in it. Still... those dimensions "exist in potential" and that means they are made of "something"... a potential thing that allows that "inflation". This is the higher "six dimensional surface" of our Universe which is touching everywhere in time and space like a tight fitting glove around our three "normal" dimensions of space (but still incorporating the same dimension of time). The full description of our Universe will also include a description of those "flat-spaces" as well, they are not "nothing". Maybe this is a "rubber glove" that you can "inflate" at every point in the universe with energy and thus make a dimensional cavity connected to our "flat-space" through a "twistor" or something. That interaction and "inflation" may go away "in time" through "deflation" but as a wave function it could be still run backwards in time to the point where that "bubble" would reform the original cavity with all the details that was originally there. Maybe this is something like a "movie" or maybe it is more like having the real thing there once again. What this means is that it is a way to time travel as well if you have access to more of time than exists in three dimensions... the full description of time involves the past and those "evanescent" waves that we think are gone forever but in actual fact they are still "out there" as a string vibration mode. Check out the work done by Pendry on negative refractive index materials and the way they can recover the evanescent wave once thought irretrievably lost. There are practical experiments that can be done to show a single particle can also travel in time... why not an "ensemble"? (off topic here)

It is thought that our entire Universe is also a "flat-space" and these "vestigial dimensions" are also flat-spaces depopulated of most particles and latent energy. But these apparently different surfaces react to each other as the wind on a pond rustles the quiet mirror reflection of our world so too do higher dimensions react to the lower dimensions (or visa versa)... not directly but through "shadows" or projections into those higher dimensional surfaces because they "touch" each other along Riemann Surfaces. Perhaps through the second derivative relative to time (acceleration) and thus the waves "ripple". These are the strings... if you could think of it as a sum of an ever increasing Fourier patterns adding to what was there and never dissipating really.

Anyway it is all a speculative theory and it cannot be proven. Still... speculation along current lines of research. Would early 19th Century man have understood the full breath and meaning of present Quantum Theory... I don't think so... mankind (if he is smart) has a while to go yet before he can claim to "know it all". Come back to me in a thousand years and say if I was right, wrong or "neither". My guess is it will always be "neither". We will not know "less" we always know "more" and it is in this vast chasm of increasing understanding you may find a few surprises. It is better than betting on finding "God" or "souls" in the remaining "gaps". Something so big cannot hide his "personality" for so long. We elves do not have "souls" rolleyes.gif . In the end we may all come to understand that we do not define "what is" we simply discover it (bit of elven "wisdom" there! wink.gif ).
QUOTE
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

--From Hamlet (I, v, 166-167)


Cheers
Insyght
Good Elf,

So your thought is that these temporal waves which reflect the life of a previous life form, could inveriably effect the point of formation of new life?

Interesting.

I can't help but ponder that such would not have that much effect. I mean we are bombarded by wave forms all day long. I do not know if our broad spectrum of waves enter into the 6 invisible dimensions which could have an actual effect on the lifeform it's self.

If for example, I stand in the park and lot out one big blow, will someone on the other side of the earth be affected in the slightest?

Energy is not destroyed right, it's transfered.

I eat, I get the energy, I blow, and expel. That wave of energy will quickly be converted into a massive quality of collisions.

Do dimensions 5-10 also follow these same rules? If not, why? If they do, then likely any minor temporal ripple will just be nagated through crossed waves (there are over 6 billion - excluding animals) lifeforms exibiting these waves.

I don't know... Interesting theory, but I have a lot of doubts
quade
Hi my name is QUADE i like scince do you like scince? her is my email quadenorush@charter.net I now ANDYwaters.I ned a frined to talk to by email i am 12 years old.
Good Elf
Hi Insyght,

QUOTE (Insyght Posted on Dec 21 2005+ 05:45 PM)
I don't know... Interesting theory, but I have a lot of doubts

Very right to have doubts. It is entirely speculative. The processes you are speaking about are in the realm of 3D + T (Space-time). The process I am speaking about is an "impression" on some as yet speculative higher dimensions (possibly related to string theory). My point is these "speculations" might bear fruit one day and everything we are doing now may seem a little "stupid" in hindsight. Other "vestigial dimensions" depopulated since a little after the big bang, through quantum demolition, are now just a layer of reality based on quantum wave functions "rippling about there"... no particles... just "strings" on the surface of our universe.

I am not trying to give people "hope" in an afterlife with jolly parties and bon homme for all... just some "completion" of the information stream which allows potential time travel and other phenomena that allow the "past" and "future" to create one coherent deterministic whole. It may not exist, or the way may be "barred" by some cosmic censorship (as Hawking says), or it may be the future of our race and the beginning of Dr. Who and the Time Lords ... he he he! Watch out for Daleks! (I have my talking Dalek Bottle Opener already biggrin.gif ).

It is a "Utopia" of Technology. What mankind has today is an Utopia compared with what the "Men of the Enlightenment" would have conceived of the future....

I do not see anything man has or will have as being his "divine right" or a gift from "God" but a potential option "if we play our cards right". The chances are we (as a species) will perish at our own hand due to the acts of "crazies" with a dark view of mankind. As an "elf" I can speculate that we may still come to our senses and overcome our self destructive streak.

I am certain that as many want this for all... there are those who want to end it all for our species. It is a choice isn't it? It is ingrained in our religious texts that destruction is our lot and the faster it happens the better. But in the ambiguous nature of our Universe we have also left open the unlikely path in our philosophy that we might survive. If not even "elves" can see these alternatives, there can be no hope anyway wink.gif .

I think man can choose his own destiny, but what is that destiny? As I have said in other threads I think time travel, in an event driven universe, is possible as a consistent description of all space and time (more than 3D + T). This means that the "information" or events are encoded on the surface of our Universe as a "string". This "information" has even been calculated and the figures (at least mathematically) add up... that is why Hawking thinks this is a way to proceed... he understands what this means so Hawking puts a "metaphysical" censorship on the laws of the Universe to prevent "Time Travel", but he has acknowledged all this is indeed possible. Have a look at Ed Witten's Homepage there are mathematical hints at this eventuality. Time travel would be simply adding to the the "wave functions" in the hyper-surface of the Universe and this would test the concept of human (and everything else) survival enfolded in time. Don't try and figure out what this means since we are "creatures trapped in time".

Authority would be "dissolved" and the Universe would be different perhaps "unmanageable". Still... lots of room to play in isn't there? Other species may have already "made it" but we may not. Sort of "Star Trek" Prime Directive. blink.gif I think "Star Travel" if it happens in any practical way means not just "space travel" but "time travel" as well. In that circumstance you can't have one without the other. And the two together requires a lot of "self discipline". All this is at the back of human consciousness isn't it? I didn't invent all this, it is already out there on the back of cereal packets and in comic books. It is "popular culture"... people want a better world and a "New Deal". I know I do... he he he!
QUOTE (Insyght Posted on Dec 21 2005+ 05:45 PM)
So your thought is that these temporal waves which reflect the life of a previous life form, could inveriably effect the point of formation of new life?

Not necessarily but here is some quotes from Ben Franklin...
QUOTE
And at the seasoned age of seventy-four, taking a long look into the as-yet-unturned pages of history, Ben Franklin wrote to Joseph Priestley, the Discoverer of oxygen, as follows:
"It is impossible to imagine the height to which may be carried, in a thousand years, the power of man over matter. We may perhaps learn to deprive large masses of their gravity, and give them absolute levity, for the sake of easy transport. Agriculture may diminish its labor and double its produce; all diseases may by sure means be prevented or cured, not excepting even that of old age, and our lives lengthened at pleasure even beyond the antediluvian standard. 0 that moral science were in as fair a way of improvement, that men would cease to be wolves to one another, and that human beings would at length learn what they now improperly call humanity."

Another quotation from Ben Franklin...
"I wish it were possible, from this instance, to invent a method of embalming drowned persons, in such a manner that they might be recalled to life at any period, however distant; for having very ardent desire to see and observe the state of America a hundred years hence, I should prefer to an ordinary death, being immersed with a few friends in a cask of Madeira, until that time, then to be recalled to life by the solar warmth of my dear country."
Benjamin Franklin, in a letter to Jacques Barbeu Dubourg.

Epitaph of Ben Franklin...
The Body of B. Franklin, Printer, Like the Cover of an Old Book, Its Contents Torn Out And Stripped of its Lettering and Gilding, Lies Here Food for Worms, But the Work shall not be Lost, For it Will as He Believed Appear Once More In a New and more Elegant Edition Revised and Corrected By the Author.


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
And at the seasoned age of seventy-four, taking a long look into the as-yet-unturned pages of history, Ben Franklin wrote to Joseph Priestley, the Discoverer of oxygen, as follows:
"It is impossible to imagine the height to which may be carried, in a thousand years, the power of man over matter. We may perhaps learn to deprive large masses of their gravity, and give them absolute levity, for the sake of easy transport. Agriculture may diminish its labor and double its produce; all diseases may by sure means be prevented or cured, not excepting even that of old age, and our lives lengthened at pleasure even beyond the antediluvian standard. 0 that moral science were in as fair a way of improvement, that men would cease to be wolves to one another, and that human beings would at length learn what they now improperly call humanity."

Another quotation from Ben Franklin...
"I wish it were possible, from this instance, to invent a method of embalming drowned persons, in such a manner that they might be recalled to life at any period, however distant; for having very ardent desire to see and observe the state of America a hundred years hence, I should prefer to an ordinary death, being immersed with a few friends in a cask of Madeira, until that time, then to be recalled to life by the solar warmth of my dear country."
Benjamin Franklin, in a letter to Jacques Barbeu Dubourg.

Epitaph of Ben Franklin...
The Body of B. Franklin, Printer, Like the Cover of an Old Book, Its Contents Torn Out And Stripped of its Lettering and Gilding, Lies Here Food for Worms, But the Work shall not be Lost, For it Will as He Believed Appear Once More In a New and more Elegant Edition Revised and Corrected By the Author.


Do dimensions 5-10 also follow these same rules? If not, why? If they do, then likely any minor temporal ripple will just be nagated through crossed waves (there are over 6 billion - excluding animals) lifeforms exibiting these waves.

The "waves" you are speaking of are only "propagation" the waves I am speaking of are quantum wave functions that have only originated from the near field and are now unseen.

There is no dissipation in a part of the Universe that has little or no matter and "accepts" only the laws of "Bose-Einstein Statistics". Wave Functions would propagate forever or nearly so as "superpositions". I have always said this "Uberspace" is the realm of the quantum... that unseen part of the Universe. I do not believe that the quantum phenomena come from below the Planck Length or Planck Time. There is no evidence for that either and is pure speculation and beyond testing forever. It is a "Physics Belief System" at present. Do not look to science for a "belief system". I just think the "craze" will pass. smile.gif

Cheers
Issachar
Goodly Elf & others
A couple of points to consider:
QUOTE
mankind (if he is smart) has a while to go yet before he can claim to "know it all".

So simple, yet brilliant.

I would ask are we really getting smarter, or just filling our heads with more knowledge, and plenty of it? The knowledge we don't have; some is at our fingertips, waiting to be learned, or just beyond our grasp; waiting to be discovered.
We have so much potential to learn great things, so much extra storage capacity on the hard drive of most powerful and well designed supercomputer ever, the human brain. It would be almost inexhaustible to fill.
The problem is we are fixed in this finite reality of time. Much like the Energizer bunny, our batteries will still run out of juice even if they are long lasting. To compound the problem, 'though the spirit is willing, the flesh is weak', we get tired and need to rest and refuel. Then our faculties slowly become increasingly inhibited, although they may be prolonged by healthy habits and modern medical science before we eventually cash in our chips.
We lose our knowledge AND mass before we can, as Einstein so eloquently put it, "....to know the thoughts of God"

In the Universe the First law of Thermodynamics does apply: the total energy is conserved.
However, the most observable phenomenon of what really affects us is not the complete closed system. We see dissipation away from a wave source.
As the 2nd law points that things tend to go from a state of order to a state of disorder or entropy. This reminds me of Leon Brillouin's question, "How is it possible to understand life when the entire world is ordered by a law such as the second principle of thermodynamics, which points to death and annihilation?"
The amazing thing is there seems to be patterns of order in chaos itself. wink.gif

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
mankind (if he is smart) has a while to go yet before he can claim to "know it all".

So simple, yet brilliant.

I would ask are we really getting smarter, or just filling our heads with more knowledge, and plenty of it? The knowledge we don't have; some is at our fingertips, waiting to be learned, or just beyond our grasp; waiting to be discovered.
We have so much potential to learn great things, so much extra storage capacity on the hard drive of most powerful and well designed supercomputer ever, the human brain. It would be almost inexhaustible to fill.
The problem is we are fixed in this finite reality of time. Much like the Energizer bunny, our batteries will still run out of juice even if they are long lasting. To compound the problem, 'though the spirit is willing, the flesh is weak', we get tired and need to rest and refuel. Then our faculties slowly become increasingly inhibited, although they may be prolonged by healthy habits and modern medical science before we eventually cash in our chips.
We lose our knowledge AND mass before we can, as Einstein so eloquently put it, "....to know the thoughts of God"

In the Universe the First law of Thermodynamics does apply: the total energy is conserved.
However, the most observable phenomenon of what really affects us is not the complete closed system. We see dissipation away from a wave source.
As the 2nd law points that things tend to go from a state of order to a state of disorder or entropy. This reminds me of Leon Brillouin's question, "How is it possible to understand life when the entire world is ordered by a law such as the second principle of thermodynamics, which points to death and annihilation?"
The amazing thing is there seems to be patterns of order in chaos itself. wink.gif

As an "elf" I can speculate that we may still come to our senses and overcome our self destructive streak.

I really like to see the optimist spirit alive and kicking. Regarding the worldwide societal interdependency and balance, if humanity keeps trying the same means and methods, why do we expect a different result than the present turmoil?
I would suggest that we may need help. huh.gif
amrit
laugh.gif

Hi
soul in not a term can be used in science
and discussion if soul has a weight seems to me strange

cosmic space has no entropy, in a living organism there is an additional density of the energy of the cosmic space.
This way organism keep lover entropy of it geological enviroment.

There is someone here would have interest and courage to repeat the experiment with earthworms ?

in science experiment counts,

yours, amrit rolleyes.gif

PS
ph34r.gif universe is a selfrenewing system with the entropy that sums to zero
consciousness is a basic frequency of QS that build up cosmic space and is a "driving force" of the evolution of life
man is created by the universe itself
as man did not understand that yet, he has invented god unsure.gif

JavaTool
QUOTE (amrit+Dec 22 2005, 08:30 PM)
laugh.gif

Hi
soul in not a term can be used in science
and discussion if soul has a weight seems to me strange

cosmic space has no entropy, in a living organism there is an additional density of the energy of the cosmic space.
This way organism keep lover entropy of it geological enviroment.

There is someone here would have interest and courage to repeat the experiment with earthworms ?

in science experiment counts,

yours, amrit  rolleyes.gif

PS
ph34r.gif universe is a selfrenewing system with the entropy that sums to zero
consciousness is a basic frequency of QS that build up cosmic space and is a "driving force" of the evolution of life
man is created by the universe itself
as man did not understand that yet, he has invented god unsure.gif

Riiiiight. Nice poetry, but the grammar and spelling (not to mention the science) could use a little work. Isn't it a bit presumptuous to say consciousness is a quantum phenomena given how little we know about cognition? Besides, there's already a dearth of data against Penrose's "theory," if you want to call it that.
amrit
laugh.gif yes, i agreeee.
consciousness is subjectve, it is difficult to search on it as it would be an object
I practise meditation for 20 years (watching the mind) and this for sure give me more insight of consciousness than any other theory (including mine) cool.gif

yours, amrit
3ohm
WHAT ABOUT THE 21 grams??? I have often heard of experiments being conducted by weighing someone at the exact moment of death and finding a loss of 21 grams! Some believe this is the weight of the soul energy! I personally haven't conducted this experiment but surely the information must come from somewhere!
Nessus
If what you say is true 3ohm, then that implies that there is a line, where on one side your alive and the other your dead. Im very interested in where that line is because its certainly not when the heart stops beating (as people have 'come back from the dead' when suffering from heart stopping, or replacement).

Not only is it important to know when the 'soul' is gone and any attempts to resuscitate the person will fail, but that this so called 'loss in mass at death' is universal (all people?, all animals? plants? bacteria? viruses? what has a 'soul' and what is just a jumble of interacting atoms).

Can this loss in mass be explained by a more likely rational explanation?

Do you actually lose mass when you die? or was it experimental error?
Guest
It was probably due to voiding a small amount of urine or faeces! Come ON, people - how could supposedly "intelligent" humans be arguing over such an idiotic notion in the first place? Where is the proof of this "weight loss"? Over how many thousands of fully-monitored deaths has this been measured properly? What are the true statistics? Were they found to be "published" solely in The National Enquirer, or were other tabloids involved also?

Far more alarming, I think, is the gargantuan and truly frightening epidemic of utter STUPIDITY that is devastating the human species! It is truly depressing.
newton
QUOTE (Guest+Jan 8 2006, 06:17 PM)
It was probably due to voiding a small amount of urine or faeces! Come ON, people - how could supposedly "intelligent" humans be arguing over such an idiotic notion in the first place? Where is the proof of this "weight loss"? Over how many thousands of fully-monitored deaths has this been measured properly? What are the true statistics? Were they found to be "published" solely in The National Enquirer, or were other tabloids involved also?

Far more alarming, I think, is the gargantuan and truly frightening epidemic of utter STUPIDITY that is devastating the human species! It is truly depressing.

did you read the thread? i liked it a lot.

i have problems with one thing, though.

once you get into higher dimensions, you can no longer reference things from a human perspective.

i like the explanation of frozen time. if you are time, how do you see space?
as suggested earlier, your life would be a worm trail through the dirt of space time, 'forever'.

do you consider time to be a dimension(a space adjective)? and yet, in the above visualisation above, the time-frozen you-worm, is a three dimensional visualisation. a shadow, shadow. play-doh's cave, yaknow.

perhaps chrono-visors aren't far so far fetched at all.

i read that mathematically speaking, time MUST flow in both directions. i don't know. it was from 'the tao of physics', by i forget who but a web search would work if you really wanted to know.

i think this is why sacred geometry is sacred. 'phi', right?

phi losophy (a married religion and science, long since divorced in the age of enlightenment)
phi delity
phi re(eygptian sun god, a ray of light)
phi lanthopy
phi ve(the pentagram's ratio intersect point, is coincidently, the phi ratio(short segment to short plus middle)
li-phi, itself, the phi-cycle.

coincidence? it's a thoth.

the giza pi-ramid's base to height ratio is 22/7, i heard/read. i never measured it, so feel free to correct.

in any event, phi is no great secret. its' signifigance is , i think.

i think the fourier thinking is something i can kind of visualise, up to the point where it becomes parallel facing mirrors, as an analogy, or light through a prizm, or some kind of spatio-temporal fluid dynamics.

what i never see, is a lack of consciousness in creation.


3ohm
Where is the PROOF of this weight loss???

WHERE IS THE PROOF OF NO WEIGHT LOSS?
Why hasen't there been more research into this theme? It seems that the people with the resources to conduct such an experiment are conspicious by their absence!

Surely if 'the soul' IS ENERGY; then there MUST BE A WEIGHT LOSS when the body becomes inanimate? Energy=Mass?

Maybe the real question is: Why hasent there been more research to PROVE OR DISPROVE the concept of a soul's mass???
Insyght
QUOTE
Surely if 'the soul' IS ENERGY; then there MUST BE A WEIGHT LOSS when the body becomes inanimate? Energy=Mass?


How phisolophy and religious teachings have really confused the concept of what the soul really is.

It's just the body... actually they say that the hebrew terms used to render this in long times past simply meant simply: something that breathes or a breathing thing.

Just like I would say 'ah poor soul, he's had such a hard life'. I'm not talking about his "spirit".

There is no evidence of a super-natural soul that survives our death. Just a nice concept that helps people deal with the inevitable ultimate outcome of all our lives... death.

It's easy to think that your brother or parents or you wife are in heaven waiting for you to arrive... or that your young child is being used as an Angel.

Not so easy to face the reality that what makes us what we our is simply our computer. It is born with the capacity to learn. We do learn. We take on an identity. The computer shuts down. We die. We are no more.

Any weight loss would can only be attributed to the change in state. No more breathing, blood circulation, cells dying, etc. I'm sure someone out there has studied this and can give a good scientific explaination why this occurs that does not involve some super natural soul.



SkiSTX
The law conservation of matter dictates that no matter has been destroyed. I won't argue against a weightloss at death, but that matter is still around somewhere, just not being weighed. Maybe evaporation or expelling gasses, liquids or solids from the body, etc. Somehow I think you would notice if matter was converted to energy ala e=mc2... kaboom biggrin.gif
Guest
QUOTE (Insyght+Jan 13 2006, 03:10 PM)
It's easy to think that your brother or parents or you wife are in heaven waiting for you to arrive... or that your young child is being used as an Angel.

No it's not! THINK, man - think about it.

Assume the fairy-tale of religion to be true for a moment - fine, then; you're in Heaven, "serving God", and you're very ecstatic about it. All of your ancestors and siblings are there, everything is all perfect and loving, and it's a happy paradise... "FOREVER".

Add the passage of only the _first_ trillion Universes that have come into and gone out of existence during your stay in this supposed "paradise". How "happy" are you going to be after _that_ enormous amount of time? Take that absurdly long time of sentient existence, and raise it by an exponent of yet another octillion - will you still know who you are? Will you even be sane? Would you be longing for your existence to _finally_ CEASE?

When you have experienced EVERY thing - 'possible' and not - what then?

Religion is futile - it is _evil_; it blinds people and dooms them to extinction. Every crime we can conceive has done in its name, over promises of "absolution" and "atonement".

It is time to GROW UP, and put an _end_ to it!!!
Fezzel
The reason few would have conducted such experiments into the 21gramss is partially due to fear of the same happening to them as to the man that dissaproved the dead sea scrolls.
blue
QUOTE (Insyght+Jan 13 2006, 03:10 PM)


There is no evidence of a super-natural soul that survives our death. Just a nice concept that helps people deal with the inevitable ultimate outcome of all our lives... death.


there is also no evidence to suggets that there is no soul,as scientists to dismiss things out of hand,just because we dont yet understand it wink.gif
El_Machinae
We often associate 'soul' with a person's morality. But since morality can be changed by damaging the brain, I'd think that there's good evidence that the brain is what contains the morality.
Thoeritist
Yes, well I think the theory is extrememely interesting, but I simply think that there may be a piece of life missing, if I can somehow find how to make a portal my friends, I can make all the theory's we have into positives of negatives.
Theoryitist
Well, I also think that humans aren't well educated about all the natural flowers, ecspecially with poison in it, I think if I could also just get a good theory, I could figure out how to cure AIDS and Cancer, my dear freinds do you know what I can do? Its just like a Theory of Chaos, natural destruction built up in a jar or worries and hatred.
Guest
Your real name is George, isn't it?
mr voo
Im not disputing Quantum spacetime energy fluctuations by biological interaction or the possibility of a massive soul but it is well known that upon death, people usually release a small amount of urine and/or feaces which would easily weigh about 7grammes, or whatever the weight is.

Perhaps the poison administered to the worms weighed the amount measured. They excreted then died.
Wraith
There have been numerous experments with the 21 grams theory, and they have shown that when a human passes away, 21 grams goes unaccounted for. Furthermore, when they do conduct the experiments, the subjects (usually terminally ill patients) are fully on a large scale, that would measure any matter excreted from their body. And i agree that there is no large scale investigation into this theory because of the fear of persecution. Also as a side note, they tested the theory on animals, however there was no similar weight loss, further promoting the idea that animals are soul less.
Guest
QUOTE (Wraith+Feb 2 2006, 06:40 AM)
There have been numerous experments with the 21 grams theory, and they have shown that when a human passes away, 21 grams goes unaccounted for. Furthermore, when they do conduct the experiments, the subjects (usually terminally ill patients) are fully on a large scale, that would measure any matter excreted from their body. And i agree that there is no large scale investigation into this theory because of the fear of persecution. Also as a side note, they tested the theory on animals, however there was no similar weight loss, further promoting the idea that animals are soul less.

examples please!
You can say "there have been experiments", but you need to show evidence of these.
nigeld
I too am rather skeptical about an apparent loss of mass after death. However, as far as I can see all of the experiments involving measuring the weight of the organism when it dies, ie the downward force on the mass due to gravity.

However, if there was an additional, very small downwards force experienced by all living organisms which disappeared when it died, then this would produce exactly the same experimental results and would be indistinguishable from gravitational forces in the experimental setup that was used.

Such a force would probably be a little more compatible with orthodox science than such a significant mass loss, indeed I have a possible mechanism in mind for such a force. The hypothesis is that there is a small attractive force between living organisms, and at any point on the earths surface, the net effect of an attractive force towards all other living organisms is downwards.

So, has anyone tried repeating the experiment where, rather than the measuring the gravitational attraction, the true inertial mass is measured? I suspect that if that was done, then no change in mass would be measured, and we can then start thinking about experiments to identify the source of this additional force.
nigeld
Sorry, its probably bad form to reply to your own posts, but I had a thought for a follow up experiment, whilst enjoying a soak in the bath..

The starting point is the setup that is used to measure the minute gravitational attractive force between two massive objects sitting next to each other. Except that instead of two massive objects there are two largish sealed containers seeded with bacteria or fungus, and sufficient nutrients for it to grow, similar to some of the experiments described earlier. As the organisms grow/multiply, measure the change in attractive force between the two containers. I would expect there to be a small but measurable increase in force, which would disappear if the organisms die or are killed.



PhysOrg scientific forums are totally dedicated to science, physics, and technology. Besides topical forums such as nanotechnology, quantum physics, silicon and III-V technology, applied physics, materials, space and others, you can also join our news and publications discussions. We also provide an off-topic forum category. If you need specific help on a scientific problem or have a question related to physics or technology, visit the PhysOrg Forums. Here you’ll find experts from various fields online every day.
To quit out of "lo-fi" mode and return to the regular forums, please click here.