Why is absolute zero the lowest temperature? We can go much higher but not any lower. The electron still has motion implying there is still entropy that can lower, but would require a temperature below absolute zero.
The answer appears to be that common matter, as we know it, would lose its integrity below absolute zero and would begin to phase change into something else. This phase change, like melting ice, holds the temp at absolute zero, until the entire change of state is complete. There is too much background energy in the universe to begin such a phase change.
We never actually reach absolute zero, so we aren't 100% sure what will happen. I have some ideas, well rather speculations, of my own after viewing many experiments using lasers to bring particles down to near zero temps.
If nobody minds, let me reason it through. At absolute zero there is still electron entropy or motion. If we theoretically attempted to go below absolute zero the entropy or kinetic energy of the electrons would lower. This implies that the magnetic force would decrease, since magnetism requires charge in motion.
With the diminished magnetic addition within the orbitals, the negative charge repulsion will cause the electrons to repel. If they repel outward and regain entropy the magnetic force will restrengthen restoring the orbital additon. But an outward increase in electron entropy will be endothermic. Maybe this cycling between oritals, loss of electron entropy-magentic force, and repulsion, due to the extreme cold, will absorb the energy from space or the potential energy within the negative charge. A similar analysis would apply to the nucleus protons.
Another path to minimize electron negative charge replusion will be for the electron charge repusion to go inward, into the nucleus's positive charge. This further lowers entropy, by going into smaller space, while also minimizing the negative charge repulsion via the increased interaction with positive charge. The positive charge within the nucleus (low magnetic addition) has no option but to go outward with an endothermic increase in entropy because of space limitation and positive charge repulsion. This would absorb the needed energy from the electrons going inward. As the total electron-proton entropy minimizes, negative and positive charge combine and cancel. Both scenarios get rid of charge.
If the nucleus loses protons (no positive charge) since there is no stable atomic situation in nature where only neutrons will exist within nuclei without the traditional protons, then the weak and strong nuclear force no longer apply or disappear. If nuclear repulsive force is still in effect, this will increase neutron entropy, implying an endothermic expansion at or below absolute zero, starting with cold neutrons. While any movement away from a critical nuclear distance will remove any nuclear repulsive force.
The bottom line is one by one the forces of nature leave until only gravity without any, entropy or endothermic expansion type force left. This seems to imply a connection between absolute zero, force unification and gravity that keeps the universe closed.
Mother Nature is quite slick, because she created two places for unified force, the hot beginning and absolute zero, thereby creating a fail safe system that cycles the universe.
With the diminished magnetic addition within the orbitals, the negative charge repulsion will cause the electrons to repel. If they repel outward and regain entropy the magnetic force will restrengthen restoring the orbital additon. But an outward increase in electron entropy will be endothermic. Maybe this cycling between oritals, loss of electron entropy-magentic force, and repulsion, due to the extreme cold, will absorb the energy from space or the potential energy within the negative charge. A similar analysis would apply to the nucleus protons.
Another path to minimize electron negative charge replusion will be for the electron charge repusion to go inward, into the nucleus's positive charge. This further lowers entropy, by going into smaller space, while also minimizing the negative charge repulsion via the increased interaction with positive charge. The positive charge within the nucleus (low magnetic addition) has no option but to go outward with an endothermic increase in entropy because of space limitation and positive charge repulsion. This would absorb the needed energy from the electrons going inward. As the total electron-proton entropy minimizes, negative and positive charge combine and cancel. Both scenarios get rid of charge.
If the nucleus loses protons (no positive charge) since there is no stable atomic situation in nature where only neutrons will exist within nuclei without the traditional protons, then the weak and strong nuclear force no longer apply or disappear. If nuclear repulsive force is still in effect, this will increase neutron entropy, implying an endothermic expansion at or below absolute zero, starting with cold neutrons. While any movement away from a critical nuclear distance will remove any nuclear repulsive force.
The bottom line is one by one the forces of nature leave until only gravity without any, entropy or endothermic expansion type force left. This seems to imply a connection between absolute zero, force unification and gravity that keeps the universe closed.
Mother Nature is quite slick, because she created two places for unified force, the hot beginning and absolute zero, thereby creating a fail safe system that cycles the universe.
Hi,
First of all it is not clear defined the temperature concept.
What about no IR radiation, see laser cooling.
Regards,
First of all it is not clear defined the temperature concept.
What about no IR radiation, see laser cooling.
Regards,
Quantum effects People!! If you are familiar with the concept of zero point energy it becomes clear that you can't lower the entropy at absolute zero. Basically Energy is quantised, so you can only take it out in "lumps", the size of which depend on the system. If a particle has no energy it is posiible to know both its position and momentum to an accuracy that violates Hiesenberg's uncertainty principle. Thus the lowest energy a particle can ever have is the size of a single quanta.
hello, all
Simnosis seems to be on the right track. First of all, you canNOT lower entropy (S). You can only lower ∆S, as this is the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Secondly, Simnosis' explanation of zero-point energy is close to the mark, as no absolute zero being reachable as the 3rd Law. A vacuum exists b/t the electrons and the nuclei. That vacuum must, by definition, contain Planck particles.
MDT - Read about this excellent topic in the seminal book by *** Feynman called 6 Easy Pieces on pp33-4 and on pp133-138. Zero electron motion would violate uncertainty, b/z we would then know both the momentum (p) and position (x) of the particle.
The notion of temperature is clearly defined as "heat capacity and/or transfer". The best thing to do would be to google "canonical partition function". Heavy on the math but just beautiful in its expression.
- ss
Simnosis seems to be on the right track. First of all, you canNOT lower entropy (S). You can only lower ∆S, as this is the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Secondly, Simnosis' explanation of zero-point energy is close to the mark, as no absolute zero being reachable as the 3rd Law. A vacuum exists b/t the electrons and the nuclei. That vacuum must, by definition, contain Planck particles.
MDT - Read about this excellent topic in the seminal book by *** Feynman called 6 Easy Pieces on pp33-4 and on pp133-138. Zero electron motion would violate uncertainty, b/z we would then know both the momentum (p) and position (x) of the particle.
The notion of temperature is clearly defined as "heat capacity and/or transfer". The best thing to do would be to google "canonical partition function". Heavy on the math but just beautiful in its expression.
- ss
QUOTE (MDT+Aug 17 2005, 08:36 PM)
Why is absolute zero the lowest temperature? We can go much higher but not any lower
Why the abscissa is the shortest connection between two points? You can make it more curved soever, but never the shorter...
Why the abscissa is the shortest connection between two points? You can make it more curved soever, but never the shorter...
QUOTE (MDT+Aug 18 2005, 01:20 PM)
If nobody minds, let me reason it through. At absolute zero there is still electron entropy or motion. If we theoretically attempted to go below absolute zero the entropy or kinetic energy of the electrons would lower. This implies that the magnetic force would decrease, since magnetism requires charge in motion.
I just keep wondering why ppl want to abuse the laws of thermodynamics...
Ok, your electron example can't happen for 1 simple reason: they are electrons.
At 0K electrons fill up all states up to the fermi energy(no particles in higher states) . This is what is called the fermisea. Now the idea of taking away energy of one of the electrons at high energy is kinda hard to do since it has no possible state to go to(all lower states are filled). So it is just plain simple pauli exclusion that prevents you from cooling your electrons to still lower temperatures.
For bosons you have a similar idea, there all your particles go to sit in the groundstate, which is called groundstate for a reason
.
When in the grounstate, if you are working in a nonuniform potential you there will remain a zero-point energy which is due to the heisenberg uncertainty. But as with all energy, energy is relative, so if you want you can shift your zero to that energy
.
In both cases if you again look at entropy as function of energystates(and not of motion, because this gives a wrong impression of how things work, eg BEC there your system condenses to groundstate (ie a large fraction of atoms start to move slower but your entropy stays the same or becomes les slower than in a system where everything would slow down at an equal rate)) then you will see that it is minimal.
Shade
I just keep wondering why ppl want to abuse the laws of thermodynamics...
Ok, your electron example can't happen for 1 simple reason: they are electrons.
At 0K electrons fill up all states up to the fermi energy(no particles in higher states) . This is what is called the fermisea. Now the idea of taking away energy of one of the electrons at high energy is kinda hard to do since it has no possible state to go to(all lower states are filled). So it is just plain simple pauli exclusion that prevents you from cooling your electrons to still lower temperatures.
For bosons you have a similar idea, there all your particles go to sit in the groundstate, which is called groundstate for a reason
.When in the grounstate, if you are working in a nonuniform potential you there will remain a zero-point energy which is due to the heisenberg uncertainty. But as with all energy, energy is relative, so if you want you can shift your zero to that energy
.In both cases if you again look at entropy as function of energystates(and not of motion, because this gives a wrong impression of how things work, eg BEC there your system condenses to groundstate (ie a large fraction of atoms start to move slower but your entropy stays the same or becomes les slower than in a system where everything would slow down at an equal rate)) then you will see that it is minimal.
Shade
If we look at the hydrogen atom it is difficult to see how the ground state can be anything more than a steady state wave function. If we make hydrogen gas or H2, many more subground states of the electrons become obvious. One no longer needs UV or visable light to see changes of ground state but now IR, Microwave, radio waves can also change the electrons wave function. This reflected in the bending, rotation, and vibration of the chemical bond or the electron wave function which defines the bond. Maybe chemistry acts differently than physics. If one is looking in the nucleus where proton spacing also becomes significant relative to subparticles one might also expect the same variety of variation.
If our experiment capability was better than in the time of Hiesenberg, I would suspect that if we stuck a probe in the electron cloud subtle changes of temp would have an impact on how often our probe got banged into. Higher temp would probably allow more collisions further out in the electron cloud or wave function, even though the wave function would remain the same.
If our experiment capability was better than in the time of Hiesenberg, I would suspect that if we stuck a probe in the electron cloud subtle changes of temp would have an impact on how often our probe got banged into. Higher temp would probably allow more collisions further out in the electron cloud or wave function, even though the wave function would remain the same.
If you happen to read the Scientific American (forgot the exact edition) a reaserch lab actually reached absolute 0.89999 temperature which in the mathematical sense can be rounded off to 1, However the he won the noble prize in physics.
QUOTE (Zephir+Oct 12 2005, 06:42 PM)
QUOTE (MDT+Aug 17 2005, 08:36 PM)
Why is absolute zero the lowest temperature? We can go much higher but not any lower
Why the abscissa is the shortest connection between two points? You can make it more curved soever, but never the shorter...
hi Zephir and all
first sorry.
GREVITATION AND TEMRETURE (HEAT CAPICITY) DIRECT RELATION MAY BE.
Gravitation permits to capture heat within nucleolus, not allowed radiating or conducting, not very with thermoplastic flow as convection of heat (out coming plates cool down but
Drop mass regain heat within magma.)(Earth never going to cool down. captured heat at equilibrium states.)
Each point of material from surface of globe to centre gravitation force and heat capacity both increases.
Gravitational pressure of vicinity mass of any globe of existence (IMPOSE SHRINK EFFECT-EXITED STATE OF MATTER) towards center of body posses and capture allow holding thermal energy (CURRECTION BY EXPANSION-EQUILIBRIUM OF EXITEMENT).
Same atom heat capacity increase refers towards centre. (Increase from surface to centre)
In matter positive raise temperature (above Kelvin) from surface to centre. (Planets)
In anti matter negative raise temperature (below Kelvin) from surface to centre. (Comets)
Why gravitation permits to capture heat within nucleolus, not allowed radiating or conducting, not very with thermoplastic flow as convection of heat.
Sintering process we are aware of.
Answer is when gravitation increases pair nucleons within nucleolus (p-g and n-g)lying d closer, which is exited states, correction done by increase heat capacity, absorb and permitted to posses, so nucleons lying apart again.
This is stable states of existence
Giving example of compression of spring by gravitation, decompress by temperature.
Each globe of universe subject to combine gravitation/temperature effect. (May be some option here)
Combine effect is pulling the mass is attraction from surface up to any intermediate vicinity of globe.
Combine effect is neither attraction nor repulsion to mass is nature within intermediate vicinity of globe.
Combine effect is below intermediate vicinity of globe up to centre of globe Combine effect is mass subject to up thrust. (Negative gravitation) or repulsive gravitation force observe.
GREVITATION AND TEMRETURE NEED TO COMBINE STUDY.NEVER THEY SEPARATE EXIST.
I think.
Why the abscissa is the shortest connection between two points? You can make it more curved soever, but never the shorter...
hi Zephir and all
first sorry.
GREVITATION AND TEMRETURE (HEAT CAPICITY) DIRECT RELATION MAY BE.
Gravitation permits to capture heat within nucleolus, not allowed radiating or conducting, not very with thermoplastic flow as convection of heat (out coming plates cool down but
Drop mass regain heat within magma.)(Earth never going to cool down. captured heat at equilibrium states.)
Each point of material from surface of globe to centre gravitation force and heat capacity both increases.
Gravitational pressure of vicinity mass of any globe of existence (IMPOSE SHRINK EFFECT-EXITED STATE OF MATTER) towards center of body posses and capture allow holding thermal energy (CURRECTION BY EXPANSION-EQUILIBRIUM OF EXITEMENT).
Same atom heat capacity increase refers towards centre. (Increase from surface to centre)
In matter positive raise temperature (above Kelvin) from surface to centre. (Planets)
In anti matter negative raise temperature (below Kelvin) from surface to centre. (Comets)
Why gravitation permits to capture heat within nucleolus, not allowed radiating or conducting, not very with thermoplastic flow as convection of heat.
Sintering process we are aware of.
Answer is when gravitation increases pair nucleons within nucleolus (p-g and n-g)lying d closer, which is exited states, correction done by increase heat capacity, absorb and permitted to posses, so nucleons lying apart again.
This is stable states of existence
Giving example of compression of spring by gravitation, decompress by temperature.
Each globe of universe subject to combine gravitation/temperature effect. (May be some option here)
Combine effect is pulling the mass is attraction from surface up to any intermediate vicinity of globe.
Combine effect is neither attraction nor repulsion to mass is nature within intermediate vicinity of globe.
Combine effect is below intermediate vicinity of globe up to centre of globe Combine effect is mass subject to up thrust. (Negative gravitation) or repulsive gravitation force observe.
GREVITATION AND TEMRETURE NEED TO COMBINE STUDY.NEVER THEY SEPARATE EXIST.
I think.
QUOTE (paresh dave+Oct 14 2005, 05:50 AM)
GRAVITATION AND TEMPERATURE NEED TO COMBINE STUDY.NEVER THEY SEPARATE EXIST.
Hello, Dave,
I'm commonly using the water surface wave model here as a basic model of Aether wave theory. This theory is basically old "bad" Aether theory, but its heavily improved by the hidden dimension context of modern theories, like the superstring/M-theory.
Well, what does the temperature of vacuum really mean here? If we bring up the vacuum as the wave surface, we can say easily, the lowest (absolute zero) temperature is the state, at which no surface waves can be observed - the surface is flat as the mirror.
Doesn't it necessarily mean, there surface has no motion at all? Of course it doesn't. There can exists so called Brownian motion, causing the local density changes od water as the result of molecules collision. Tho whole trick is, this movement cannot be observed using the surface waves! Why?
Just because the surface wave spreading strongly depends on the density of water. If this density is increases, the wavelength of the surface wave increases too. But by the same way the speed of surface wave decreases, so it compensates the whole effect nearly exactly. Therefore, it means, the local changes of density cannot be observed by the surface wave directly, as the common temperature wave. But it doesn't mean, it cannot be observed indirectly, for example as the so called quantum effects locally, or the so called "dark matter" in the universe or the Pioneer probe anomaly at the global scale.
From this point of view each particle - like the single electron - exhibits some twinkling motion even at the absolute zero temperature as the result of fast vacuum density micro-changes . But this motion is a rather result of "gravity microlense" effect observation through a twinkling vacuum, than real motion of electron. It means, the electron doesn't radiate any EMG energy alone as the result of the motion! It means, it stays totally cold, but its energy is non zero, corresponding so called zero point energy, basic quantum energy state.
From this point of view, as I'm usually sayig, we are poor creatures, living at the surface of melted iron. This iron has a very high temperature, but it's surface is mirror-like, so the creatures, (which are formed by the melted iron too - just a more bit dense state of it..) believes, the surface is totally cold. It looks rather strange, but its a result of hidden dimension concept, which can be modeled by this physical analogy easily.
Is it more clear the temperature concept/meaning for You by now? There is potentially a lot of temperatures at the different spacetime/energy level scales - so if we feeling the vacuum is could, it doesn't mean necessarily, it has no internal gravity energy/temperature at all... It just mean, we aren't able to observe the temperature waves directly, living just at the particular surface (membrane) of vacuum.
So, if you listen about the water surface model with connection of Aether theory at the past (but I don't think so..), it doesn't necessarily mean, You've fully understood this model too.
Hello, Dave,
I'm commonly using the water surface wave model here as a basic model of Aether wave theory. This theory is basically old "bad" Aether theory, but its heavily improved by the hidden dimension context of modern theories, like the superstring/M-theory.
Well, what does the temperature of vacuum really mean here? If we bring up the vacuum as the wave surface, we can say easily, the lowest (absolute zero) temperature is the state, at which no surface waves can be observed - the surface is flat as the mirror.
Doesn't it necessarily mean, there surface has no motion at all? Of course it doesn't. There can exists so called Brownian motion, causing the local density changes od water as the result of molecules collision. Tho whole trick is, this movement cannot be observed using the surface waves! Why?
Just because the surface wave spreading strongly depends on the density of water. If this density is increases, the wavelength of the surface wave increases too. But by the same way the speed of surface wave decreases, so it compensates the whole effect nearly exactly. Therefore, it means, the local changes of density cannot be observed by the surface wave directly, as the common temperature wave. But it doesn't mean, it cannot be observed indirectly, for example as the so called quantum effects locally, or the so called "dark matter" in the universe or the Pioneer probe anomaly at the global scale.
From this point of view each particle - like the single electron - exhibits some twinkling motion even at the absolute zero temperature as the result of fast vacuum density micro-changes . But this motion is a rather result of "gravity microlense" effect observation through a twinkling vacuum, than real motion of electron. It means, the electron doesn't radiate any EMG energy alone as the result of the motion! It means, it stays totally cold, but its energy is non zero, corresponding so called zero point energy, basic quantum energy state.
From this point of view, as I'm usually sayig, we are poor creatures, living at the surface of melted iron. This iron has a very high temperature, but it's surface is mirror-like, so the creatures, (which are formed by the melted iron too - just a more bit dense state of it..) believes, the surface is totally cold. It looks rather strange, but its a result of hidden dimension concept, which can be modeled by this physical analogy easily.
Is it more clear the temperature concept/meaning for You by now? There is potentially a lot of temperatures at the different spacetime/energy level scales - so if we feeling the vacuum is could, it doesn't mean necessarily, it has no internal gravity energy/temperature at all... It just mean, we aren't able to observe the temperature waves directly, living just at the particular surface (membrane) of vacuum.
So, if you listen about the water surface model with connection of Aether theory at the past (but I don't think so..), it doesn't necessarily mean, You've fully understood this model too.
QUOTE (Everard+Oct 14 2005, 01:13 AM)
If you happen to read the Scientific American (forgot the exact edition) a reaserch lab actually reached absolute 0.89999 temperature which in the mathematical sense can be rounded off to 1, However the he won the noble prize in physics.
What are you trying to say?
That they reached a temperature of 0.9K...
that is not so impressive since BEC experiments got temperatures in picokelvin range...
What are you trying to say?
That they reached a temperature of 0.9K...
that is not so impressive since BEC experiments got temperatures in picokelvin range...
Positively infinite temperature is not possible, but the temperature higher than it,i.e., negative temperature, is possible.
Absolutely zero temp is not possible, but temp lower than it is.
Absolutely zero temp is not possible, but temp lower than it is.
I think this should give you a good idea of energy near zero.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bose-Einstein_condensate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bose-Einstein_condensate
PhysOrg scientific forums are totally dedicated to science, physics, and technology. Besides topical forums such as nanotechnology, quantum physics, silicon and III-V technology, applied physics, materials, space and others, you can also join our news and publications discussions. We also provide an off-topic forum category. If you need specific help on a scientific problem or have a question related to physics or technology, visit the PhysOrg Forums. Here you’ll find experts from various fields online every day.
To quit out of "lo-fi" mode and return to the regular forums, please click here.