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Nick
When Einstein was asked about his Relativity he said:
when the station comes to the train.

It must be explained that the station is not moving through
any space-time to get closer to the train. It is the train alone
that accelerates(experiences weight).

Therefore relative motion exists only in potential to
the absolute movement in space-time of something else.

This means that there is no reciprocity of effect in SR.
Only the object that accelerates in space-time will
experience length and time contraction.

An object flying by the earth at very near light velocity
will not have to wait to see Earth clocks. And they all
will be blueshifted. There is no reciprocity there.
Why should there be? ph34r.gif
geistkiesel
QUOTE (Nick+Jun 19 2005, 04:28 AM)
When Einstein was asked about his Relativity he said:
when the station comes to the train.

It must be explained that the station is not moving through
any space-time to get closer to the train. It is the train alone
that accelerates(experiences weight).

Therefore relative motion exists only in potential to
the absolute movement in space-time of something else.

This means that there is no reciprocity of effect in SR.
Only the object that accelerates in space-time will
experience length and time contraction.

An object flying by the earth at very near light velocity
will not have to wait to see Earth clocks. And they all
will be blueshifted. There is no reciprocity there.
Why should there be?  ph34r.gif

Nick,
Have you ever wondered why no one has responded to
your thread? It sure looks like the "equivalence of inertial
frames" leaves something to be desired. When any two inertial
frames are observed in a state of relative motion and one of the frames is a "station", "embankment" or any "surface area of the earth"
and the other some earth borne object, it is guaranteed that
the the total relative velocity of the Vo and Ve, ot Voe, can be
accounted for by the acceleration of the object
(occcasional earthquakes and nuclear explosions
excepted of course). So why would
anyone assume the object is at rest wrt the Ve then?

Answer: because SRT wouldn't work without the
assumption of the object "always" at rest. And this even thouigh the observer may assume either she is at rest or in motion wrt the embankment!


Here is a train which is assumed at rest wrt the
"station" (embankment) assumed moving to the
left. The lady scientifically and professionally drops
red golf balls (momentum balls) onto a slightly mottled granite surface
along side the train. If she is at rest and momentum is
conserved (as required by SRT) and the embankment is moving then the balls will feel a "chip shot" force to the rear of the train, correct?
Other wise the balls will bounce straight back up to
her hand (less some friction loss). This can only
occur if she and the embankment are actually
at rest wrt each other, or she is moving
forward and the embankment is at
rest. This is one of those
situations where SRT
makes up a physically
impossible condition and calls
that impossible condition "equivalent" wrt
the two inertial frames of reference.
user posted image

Geistkiesel cool.gif
Nick
Thankyou Geistkiesel.

It is interesting that if there is no motion; when two objects are
not moving with respect to each other; then the space inbetween
them is an absolute at least as far as their measurements of each
other are concerned.

Introduce motion; the acceleration of one; and space-time
contracts. There are no relativistic effects for a system of
objects at rest with each other.

When there are no relatives!
geistkiesel
QUOTE (Nick+Jul 1 2005, 04:04 AM)
Thankyou Geistkiesel.

It is interesting that if there is no motion; when two objects are
not moving with respect to each other; then the space inbetween
them is an absolute at least as far as their measurements of each
other are concerned.

Introduce motion; the acceleration of one; and space-time
contracts. There are no relativistic effects for a system of
objects at rest with each other.

When there are no relatives!

Nick,
Right you are , but you used the durtiest word in the SRT language, "absolute", which, as I understand SRT, is a physical impossibility. In another forum that has quietly terminated opertion,currently, I was making the point that two photons emitted in oposite directions to each other have a defined and invariant midpoint. This is so for the reason that light moves in a straight line (isotropically), at a constant veloicty and independently of the motion of the source of the light (so the postulates of light say, which I agree with, so far). Therefore, these photons define an effective absolute zero velocity coordinate point from which all local motion can be measured: that is, from the emission point , which as a "postulational defined point", does not move, period [note the photons need not share the same trajectory line: the trajectories may cross at any angle. Here though the midpoint between the photons become a line bisecting the angle between the trajectories of the photons. The coordinate frame if enhanced in utility in the off parallel case.

I received questions such as, "at zero velocity with respect to what?" "Nothing", I say, " the point simply isn't moving, read the postulates". There are of course the "but an observer on the moving frame sees it differently and she considers herself at rest wrt the stationary fraem". "Fine", I say "let her consider all she wants to, Does her mere "perspective", or consideration" define the physics of time dilation and frame contraction?"

The positulates say the light not only doesn't know the frame is in the neighborhood, it could care less it it did know the frames was nearby, and moving though assumed at rest. You can fool humans into believing SRT , but you can't fool a photon, especially a photon that has moved a distance ct, then reflected back to the actual emission point after travelling another distance ct (total distance the left photon moves now 2ct). The physical device that emitted the photons has moved away from the point of emission, which is invariant, not because I say so, but because the photons have defined the point as such. I can certainly understand the observer looking at the point there in front of her and with no evidence one way or the other she assumes she is at rest. And, lo and behold, the photons begin to adjust speed just to satisfy her 'justified' assumption that she isn't moving.

If she were to look at the condition from the perspective that she had witnessed many similar tests when the frame was actually at rest wrt the embankment, and even conducted tests identical to the one she is now enagaged in many hundreds of times, she might just make a guess that she might be moving; before any "perceptions" are uttered that will change the physical dynamics of the motions under consideration -- she waits until all the data arrives. Then her perceptions and judgments can be based on rational structures such as experimental results, personal experience and an enhanced and educated sense of multi-angled understanding.

Isn't it SRT that lauds the acceptance of conditions that are "counter intuitive", and so very proudly so (as if the speakers were "special")? And aren't these notions advertised with a background tone of condescention and near derision directed at anyone maintaining a mental state of rational thought, based on observation and analysis?
In the figure time is broken down into 4 slots, 0,1,2,3 The emission point is invariant through out which is shown by the vertical line extending through all the time slots. Instead of defing the distances withmeter sticks, I merely use the distance traveled by light in time t, which seems to work rather nicely. For a mere "Newtonian" model light is a failry smooth sailing entity, but then this is just my opinion.

A typical figure posted regarding "zero velocity coordinate frame".

The arrangement here is a linear Sagnac setup. SRT says the photons will arrive at the two reflectors simultaneously, when the frame is moving wrt the stationary frame. This means that the photon that is chasing a detector/mirror goes through a contracted space with time dilated, and, I supppose, for the other photon moving toward an oncoming detector, the space and time are expanded to accomodate that photon moving left. Just think about it: the dilations, contractions and expansions are exactly enough to place the photons at the detectors simultaneously.

Am I getting this straight?: In SRT there is loss of simultaneioty when there is simultaneity, but when there isn't simultaneity then there is simultaneity? Well at least I know now what the words, "counter intuitive" mean.

Geistkiesel cool.gif
Nick
Geistkiesel, I know absolute is a dirty word to some.
But Einstein never said that everything is relative.
He said he considered calling it invariance theory
instead of relativity. tongue.gif
Socratus.
100 years of Einstein's SRT.
100 years have passed from the date of creation of SRT.
Millions of articles, reviews and books have been written and the
United Nations has decided to establish 2005 as the centennial year of SRT.
Considering all that is clear in this theory, one must still
continue to be surprised by its unusual aspects
Lets review it again:
1. SRT is based on two postulates:
a) According to classical mechanics, physical processes,
which occur in rest or in a rectilinearly driven reference system
are described under the same laws.
cool.gif The rectilinear - uniform propagation of a quantum of light (c=1) in vacuo
has a constant magnitude and does not depend on the source of radiation.
These two postulates would be proven if in the final analysis, they corresponded
with Galilean transformations. However, the result appears negative.
Galilean transformations do not unite these two theories. Why?
2. The rectilinear - uniform motion of a quantum of light (c=1) is connected with
Maxwell's classical electrodynamics. SRT has grown from Maxwell's electrodynamics
and main component in it is the electron.
What describes the electron in Maxwell's electrodynamics?
It is natural, that this electron should be in motion, but it does not move rectilinearly.
It rotates around its own diameter ( spin of Goudsmit-Uhlenbeck)
and such a rotation creates electrical waves. In such rotation all geometrical
and physical parameters of the electron are changed.
It is for this reason Einstein utilized the Lorentz transformations.
And all that is sensible in SRT is that it examines two completely
different types of movement: rectilinear (quantum of light c=1)
and rotational (Maxwell's electron).
It examines the transformation of the electron into a quantum of light (photon)
or quantum of light into an electron .
3. According to classical electrodynamics, an electron in rectilinear motion
does not create electrical waves. Why?
Because the electron travels as a quantum of light (c=1).
In such movement its geometrical form is a circle.
In such movement its area of contact with the vacuum is minimal
and it is not capable of changing the uniformity of the vacuum.
4. When the electron rotates around its own diameter, its speed is more
than the rectilinear motion of a quantum of light. Its speed is c > 1.
For this reason physicists ascribe a huge frequency
to the electron which is the reason its energy E =ħw is higher.
* * *
If you have time and desire, I ask you to visit my site
http://www.socratus.com
Best regards.
Socratus.
Nick
Socratus, I am saying that there is no reciprocity of effect
in Relativity. Contrary to what Einstein said.

I say that relativistic effects only happen to those
bodies that are moving through space relative to others.
You can have something absolutely moving through
space toward or away from others. But if those
others are not moving through space then they
only have a "relative" motion.

That is the distinction that should be made.

This means that only objects moving through space
relative to others will shrink and have their clocks slow. blink.gif
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