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PuckSR
So, I recently started working with a Christian guy who doesn't drink. AT ALL

How do I get him to start drinking?
I work with a group of guys who all love beer, and this poor guy is going to feel left out if he doesn't learn to enjoy life a bit more.

Any advice?
What is the best way to convince a person that they should drink?
I am not as concerned about getting him to like alcohol(a nice Dubbel should be a good introduction for anyone). I have yet to meet a person who didn't enjoy a good drink, just a bunch of crazy Christians who made up some crap about alcohol a while back.

flyingbuttressman
QUOTE (PuckSR+Aug 13 2009, 06:36 PM)
So, I recently started working with a Christian guy who doesn't drink. AT ALL

How do I get him to start drinking?
I work with a group of guys who all love beer, and this poor guy is going to feel left out if he doesn't learn to enjoy life a bit more.

Any advice?
What is the best way to convince a person that they should drink?
I am not as concerned about getting him to like alcohol(a nice Dubbel should be a good introduction for anyone). I have yet to meet a person who didn't enjoy a good drink, just a bunch of crazy Christians who made up some crap about alcohol a while back.

It might not be just religion. For people who have a family history of alcoholism, going out for a drink is playing with fire.
PuckSR
You are saying that certain people are so genetically predisposed to alcoholism that having a single drink could cause them to turn into a full-fledged drunk?

Do these people have to wear special bracelets so that they don't accidentally using rubbing alcohol on them?
pnelson419
QUOTE (PuckSR+Aug 13 2009, 07:36 PM)
So, I recently started working with a Christian guy who doesn't drink.  AT ALL

How do I get him to start drinking?
I work with a group of guys who all love beer, and this poor guy is going to feel left out if he doesn't learn to enjoy life a bit more.

Any advice?
What is the best way to convince a person that they should drink?
I am not as concerned about getting him to like alcohol(a nice Dubbel should be a good introduction for anyone).  I have yet to meet a person who didn't enjoy a good drink, just a bunch of crazy Christians who made up some crap about alcohol a while back.

I used to work with a group of guys who all love beer. None of them more than my uncle. He died before the age of forty from liver disease primarily caused by his love for beer.

I find that one of many reasons to quit drinking and also a good reason not to start.
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (PuckSR+Aug 13 2009, 06:46 PM)
You are saying that certain people are so genetically predisposed to alcoholism that having a single drink could cause them to turn into a full-fledged drunk?

Do these people have to wear special bracelets so that they don't accidentally using rubbing alcohol on them?

I doubt that... It's more that a single drink will lead to a second drink, which will lead to a third, which will lead to a fourth, and so on and so forth.

If his only objection to alcohol is on religious grounds, point out that Jesus turned water into wine. Admittedly it was very weak wine, and done because water in those days was not always safe to drink, but it was wine nonetheless.
You could also point out that Jesus never said not to drink at all, he just taught his followers not to be alcoholics.
PuckSR
QUOTE
I used to work with a group of guys who all love beer. None of them more than my uncle. He died before the age of forty from liver disease primarily caused by his love for beer.

I find that one of many reasons to quit drinking and also a good reason not to start.


Really?
Because one of my co-workers is an avid beer drinker. He even brews his own beer.
He is 45 and one of the healthiest individuals I know.

In fact, multiple studies have indicated that moderate consumption of alcohol is HEALTHY!!!

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
I used to work with a group of guys who all love beer. None of them more than my uncle. He died before the age of forty from liver disease primarily caused by his love for beer.

I find that one of many reasons to quit drinking and also a good reason not to start.


Really?
Because one of my co-workers is an avid beer drinker. He even brews his own beer.
He is 45 and one of the healthiest individuals I know.

In fact, multiple studies have indicated that moderate consumption of alcohol is HEALTHY!!!

I doubt that... It's more that a single drink will lead to a second drink, which will lead to a third, which will lead to a fourth, and so on and so forth.

If his only objection to alcohol is on religious grounds, point out that Jesus turned water into wine. Admittedly it was very weak wine, and done because water in those days was not always safe to drink, but it was wine nonetheless.
You could also point out that Jesus never said not to drink at all, he just taught his followers not to be alcoholics.

Oh, so alcohol is like a potato chip to these people?

I guess the test for alcoholism is pretty simple. You line up a row of shots and see how many the person will try to drink?

Or are you just assuming that a genetic pre-disposition to alcoholism is a very powerful force? I guess you know you are making this assumption in the face of a lot of research?

And who said that Jesus' wine was weak?
I didn't know that Jews drank weak wine at passover. I thought they just drank regular wine. Also, Jesus probably drank beer. I don't think they watered down their beer back then.
pnelson419
QUOTE (PuckSR+Aug 13 2009, 08:07 PM)

Really?
Because one of my co-workers is an avid beer drinker. He even brews his own beer.
He is 45 and one of the healthiest individuals I know.

In fact, multiple studies have indicated that moderate consumption of alcohol is HEALTHY!!!


I have an 85 year old grandmother that has smoked all her life. She he one of the heathiest individuals I know for her age.

Smoking must be healthy for you too.

PuckSR
QUOTE
I have an 85 year old grandmother that has smoked all her life. She he one of the heathiest individuals I know for her age.

Smoking must be healthy for you too.

Then you need to meet more 85 year olds. I know one who runs marathons.

Avoiding all of that...
Why do most studies find that moderate drinkers have no average increased rate of mortality? In fact, many studies find that mild to moderate drinkers live longer.

I don't think they discover the same fact with smokers.
pnelson419
QUOTE (PuckSR+Aug 13 2009, 08:24 PM)
Then you need to meet more 85 year olds. I know one who runs marathons.

Avoiding all of that...
Why do most studies find that moderate drinkers have no average increased rate of mortality? In fact, many studies find that mild to moderate drinkers live longer.

I don't think they discover the same fact with smokers.

What do you consider moderate for someone who is about to get behind the steering wheel of an automobile and head down the highway?
PuckSR
QUOTE
What do you consider moderate for someone who is about to get behind the steering wheel of an automobile and head down the highway?

Oh, I would say no more than 2 drinks. Of course, if you are an inexperienced drinker you might want to play it safe and not drive at all.

2 drinks sound dangerous?
Not really.
Txting is far more dangerous.
Talking on a cellphone?
Messing with the radio?
All dangerous.

Should someone drink and drive? No
People should also keep their hands at 4 and 8, check their mirrors every 20 seconds, always be well-rested and fully nourished and not be thinking about anything else while driving.
Derek1148
QUOTE (PuckSR+Aug 13 2009, 11:36 PM)
So, I recently started working with a Christian guy who doesn't drink. AT ALL

How do I get him to start drinking?
I work with a group of guys who all love beer, and this poor guy is going to feel left out if he doesn't learn to enjoy life a bit more.

Any advice?
What is the best way to convince a person that they should drink?
I am not as concerned about getting him to like alcohol(a nice Dubbel should be a good introduction for anyone). I have yet to meet a person who didn't enjoy a good drink, just a bunch of crazy Christians who made up some crap about alcohol a while back.

I'm sure if you keep him company long enough he'll start drinking.
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (PuckSR+Aug 13 2009, 07:07 PM)
Oh, so alcohol is like a potato chip to these people?

What are you, 12? Lay off the hissy fit.

QUOTE
I guess the test for alcoholism is pretty simple.  You line up a row of shots and see how many the person will try to drink?

So you have no experience with addiction. That's fine, so long as you stop lecturing people like myself who do have such experience about it. Total abstinence is much much easier than controlled, continued use.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
I guess the test for alcoholism is pretty simple.  You line up a row of shots and see how many the person will try to drink?

So you have no experience with addiction. That's fine, so long as you stop lecturing people like myself who do have such experience about it. Total abstinence is much much easier than controlled, continued use.

Or are you just assuming that a genetic pre-disposition to alcoholism is a very powerful force?

Straw man #1.

QUOTE
  I guess you know you are making this assumption in the face of a lot of research?

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article....m-and-our-genes

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
  I guess you know you are making this assumption in the face of a lot of research?

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article....m-and-our-genes

And who said that Jesus' wine was weak?

I did. Weren't you paying attention?

QUOTE
I didn't know that Jews drank weak wine at passover.

Straw man #2.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
I didn't know that Jews drank weak wine at passover.

Straw man #2.

Also, Jesus probably drank beer.

Straw man #3.

QUOTE
I don't think they watered down their beer back then.

Straw man #4.
AlexG
QUOTE
Oh, so alcohol is like a potato chip to these people?


Yes.

I take it you've never known an alcoholic?
light in the tunnel
My suggestion is to welcome him to come "drinking" with you and your friends even if he doesn't want to consume in alcoholic beverages. If you want to share the joys of drinking with him, talk to him about your experiences drinking, why you like it, etc. Ask him if he is interested in having similar experiences and why or why not. He might not take up drinking and you might not become Christian, but you might both learn something from each other in the process.
pnelson419
QUOTE (PuckSR+Aug 13 2009, 08:07 PM)

Really?
Because one of my co-workers is an avid beer drinker. He even brews his own beer.
He is 45 and one of the healthiest individuals I know.


This avid beer drinker.

Do you really know how healthy he is?

My uncle seemed very healthy. He was a very stong and active individual.

His health degraded rapidly.
PuckSR

QUOTE (MjolnirPants+)
So you have no experience with addiction. That's fine, so long as you stop lecturing people like myself who do have such experience about it. Total abstinence is much much easier than controlled, continued use


But he isn't an addict. He has never had a drink before in his LIFE.
Even the studies that do suggest that alcoholism is genetic agree that there are also environmental factors, and that without exterior influences most people will not become alcoholics.

From an article you linked later in your comment
"As is true of many other human disorders, alcoholism does not have a single cause, nor is its origin entirely genetic"


As far as Jesus drinking weak wine...
What evidence do you have of this fact?
I have evidence that you are full of crap.
John 2:9-10
When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

What is he talking about?
The long standing(and still popular) tradition of giving people quality booze until they are intoxicated and then giving them lower quality alcohol(because their sense of taste is diminished)

Also, have you ever tasted watered down wine?
It is very difficult to tell good wine from bad wine when it is watered down. It isn't scotch. The water doesn't help the flavor. They could determine the good stuff from the bad stuff because it wasn't watered down.
QUOTE (AlexG+)
I take it you've never known an alcoholic?

Not personally.
I have definitely never heard of someone INSTANTLY becoming an alcoholic.

QUOTE
My suggestion is to welcome him to come "drinking" with you and your friends even if he doesn't want to consume in alcoholic beverages. If you want to share the joys of drinking with him, talk to him about your experiences drinking, why you like it, etc. Ask him if he is interested in having similar experiences and why or why not. He might not take up drinking and you might not become Christian, but you might both learn something from each other in the process.

Why on Earth would I want to join a cult?
I am trying to get him out of a cult
flyingbuttressman
PuckSR,

If you knew that you had a genetically increased risk for melanoma, would you ignore that and sunbath regularly?

By the way, alcohol is considered an addictive substance. This is especially true for those with the genetic and/or social predisposition.
PuckSR
I might not sunbath but I wouldn't become a vampire either.

As far as alcohol being an addictive substance...according to who?
I drank yesterday, but not today. Increased consumption frequently leads to a period of DECREASED consumption. Doesn't sound like most addictive substances to me.
Derek1148
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Aug 14 2009, 01:14 AM)
PuckSR,

If you knew that you had a genetically increased risk for melanoma, would you ignore that and sunbath regularly?

By the way, alcohol is considered an addictive substance. This is especially true for those with the genetic and/or social predisposition.

Habit forming and addictive are not synonymous.
AlexG
QUOTE
I have definitely never heard of someone INSTANTLY becoming an alcoholic.


An alcoholic doesn't become one. He is one or he isn't one. An alcoholic could go through life never having a drink and never knowing he's an alcohol addict. That first drink is all it would take.

Derek1148
QUOTE (AlexG+Aug 14 2009, 01:25 AM)

An alcoholic doesn't become one. He is one or he isn't one. An alcoholic could go through life never having a drink and never knowing he's an alcohol addict. That first drink is all it would take.

What?
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (PuckSR+Aug 13 2009, 08:08 PM)
But he isn't an addict. He has never had a drink before in his LIFE.

Straw man #5. You need to pay attention to this little thing called "context." I wasn't claiming the Christian guy was an alcoholic. I never even implied that he was.

You used the phrase "certain people" in a context which indicated you were referring to alcoholics. I then responded, in that context. Now you're talking about one specific person who had not been previously identified as an alcoholic.

QUOTE
Even the studies that do suggest that alcoholism is genetic agree that there are also environmental factors, and that without exterior influences most people will not become alcoholics.

Straw man #6. I never said that the sole cause of alcoholism was genetics, nor did I ever even imply it.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Even the studies that do suggest that alcoholism is genetic agree that there are also environmental factors, and that without exterior influences most people will not become alcoholics.

Straw man #6. I never said that the sole cause of alcoholism was genetics, nor did I ever even imply it.

As far as Jesus drinking weak wine... What evidence do you have of this fact?

http://www.prohibitionhangover.com/israelwine.html
QUOTE
The ancients didn’t understand microbes and gastrointestinal disease, but they knew that drinking water led to sickness and sometimes death. The water supply was often contaminated, particularly around settlements that had no sanitation, or even in short supply during droughts. So they drank wine but diluted it with water, both to quench the thirst and to dilute the effects of such strong drink. This kept them healthy.  In fact, the phrase “strong drink” in the Bible may refer to undiluted wine.


QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The ancients didn’t understand microbes and gastrointestinal disease, but they knew that drinking water led to sickness and sometimes death. The water supply was often contaminated, particularly around settlements that had no sanitation, or even in short supply during droughts. So they drank wine but diluted it with water, both to quench the thirst and to dilute the effects of such strong drink. This kept them healthy.  In fact, the phrase “strong drink” in the Bible may refer to undiluted wine.


I have evidence that you are full of crap.
John 2:9-10
When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

Hold on... Are you quoting the bible as evidence? laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

QUOTE
Also, have you ever tasted watered down wine?

Straw man #7. I never said it was watered down, just that it was weak. It is possible and quite common to ferment wine to a level less than 13% alcohol, and doing so produces a much sweeter drink. I admit that the source I just provided you describes watered down wines, but of course, you set up this straw man before I posted that source.
For the record, if I were throwing a party, I'd use sweeter wines instead of more potent wines: It's cheaper and more conducive to a good party experience than getting all the guests shitfaced would be.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Also, have you ever tasted watered down wine?

Straw man #7. I never said it was watered down, just that it was weak. It is possible and quite common to ferment wine to a level less than 13% alcohol, and doing so produces a much sweeter drink. I admit that the source I just provided you describes watered down wines, but of course, you set up this straw man before I posted that source.
For the record, if I were throwing a party, I'd use sweeter wines instead of more potent wines: It's cheaper and more conducive to a good party experience than getting all the guests shitfaced would be.

Not personally.

It shows.
AlexG
Alcoholism is a genetic trait. It goes beyond a predisposition. A person can have the trait and never drink. An alcoholic can stop drinking for twenty years, and still be unable to consume any alcohol without falling back into the addictive state.

I spent twenty years married to an alcoholic. My oldest son inherited the trait and is an alcoholic. My youngest son didn't.

Derek1148
QUOTE (AlexG+Aug 14 2009, 01:33 AM)
Alcoholism is a genetic trait. It goes beyond a predisposition. A person can have the trait and never drink. An alcoholic can stop drinking for twenty years, and still be unable to consume any alcohol without falling back into the addictive state.

I spent twenty years married to an alcoholic. My oldest son inherited the trait and is an alcoholic. My youngest son didn't.

Some individuals have personalities and traits that make them more susceptible to addictive (and habit forming) substances. I believe you and I disagree on definitions. I don't believe one can be an alcoholic, having never used alcoholic beverages.
AlexG
QUOTE (Derek1148+Aug 13 2009, 08:44 PM)
Some individuals have personalities and traits that make them more susceptible to addictive (and habit forming) substances. I believe you and I disagree on definitions. I don't believe one can be an alcoholic, having never used alcoholic beverages.

ok.
pnelson419
QUOTE (AlexG+Aug 13 2009, 09:25 PM)

An alcoholic doesn't become one. He is one or he isn't one. An alcoholic could go through life never having a drink and never knowing he's an alcohol addict. That first drink is all it would take.

My brother is an alcoholic.

I believe he became one.
gendo
QUOTE (pnelson419+Aug 14 2009, 01:54 AM)
My brother is an alcoholic.

I believe he became one.

There are two kinds of people in this world:

Alcoholics

and

Future Alcoholics
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (AlexG+Aug 13 2009, 08:33 PM)
Alcoholism is a genetic trait. It goes beyond a predisposition. A person can have the trait and never drink. An alcoholic can stop drinking for twenty years, and still be unable to consume any alcohol without falling back into the addictive state.

I spent twenty years married to an alcoholic. My oldest son inherited the trait and is an alcoholic. My youngest son didn't.

I'm both with you and with pnelson on this one. I think some people can become alcoholics, but others are 'born' alcoholics in the sense that their genetics and upbringing encourage it to a degree that makes it a chronic condition.
I have known people who could not touch a single drink without relapsing, and I've known people who simply appeared to stop being an alcoholic and start being a moderate drinker.
PuckSR
QUOTE (MjolnirPants+)
Straw man #7. I never said it was watered down, just that it was weak. It is possible and quite common to ferment wine to a level less than 13% alcohol, and doing so produces a much sweeter drink. I admit that the source I just provided you describes watered down wines, but of course, you set up this straw man before I posted that source.
For the record, if I were throwing a party, I'd use sweeter wines instead of more potent wines: It's cheaper and more conducive to a good party experience than getting all the guests shitfaced would be.


Here, you are sadly mistaken.
I am a vintner.
Yes, today we can make carefully controlled wines. We can do this because we understand that amazing fungi known as yeast. We select certain yeasts that are more or less tolerant to alcohol. The more tolerant of alcohol, the stronger the drink.
We can also control the sugar level, but that is more applicable to beer.
We could also limit the fermentation time of the wine, but this is a very bad method of regulating alcohol content.(I could explain if you would like)

Ancient people didn't understand yeast, and therefore weren't able to regulate the type of yeast used. This most likely resulted in a wine with a decently high alcohol content(~10%) and a flavor similar to an Lambic Ale.

Your argument shows an ignorance for wine-making.

As far as the article you linked, it points out that wine is absurdly common in Israel. He actually jokes that wine is more common than water.

P.S. Sweeter wine wasn't any cheaper. Only modern methods make wines like blush cheaper than savory wines. Also, a bunch of shitfaced friends can be fun.

QUOTE
  Alcoholism is a genetic trait. It goes beyond a predisposition. A person can have the trait and never drink. An alcoholic can stop drinking for twenty years, and still be unable to consume any alcohol without falling back into the addictive state.

I spent twenty years married to an alcoholic. My oldest son inherited the trait and is an alcoholic. My youngest son didn't.

I know that your personal experience may blind you to facts, but I will try to be clear. There is some proof of genetic causation for alcoholism. Similarly, there is some genetic causation for homosexuality. Neither is anywhere near 100% in twin studies...so the idea that it is purely a genetic trait is patently false.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
  Alcoholism is a genetic trait. It goes beyond a predisposition. A person can have the trait and never drink. An alcoholic can stop drinking for twenty years, and still be unable to consume any alcohol without falling back into the addictive state.

I spent twenty years married to an alcoholic. My oldest son inherited the trait and is an alcoholic. My youngest son didn't.

I know that your personal experience may blind you to facts, but I will try to be clear. There is some proof of genetic causation for alcoholism. Similarly, there is some genetic causation for homosexuality. Neither is anywhere near 100% in twin studies...so the idea that it is purely a genetic trait is patently false.

There are two kinds of people in this world:

Alcoholics

and

Future Alcoholics

I think you are wrong.
In fact, I think I am a testament to the fact that you are wrong.
Ah, time to start drinking some Jack Daniels....
Derek1148
QUOTE (PuckSR+Aug 14 2009, 02:25 AM)
Ah, time to start drinking some Jack Daniels....

I prefer Jim Beam
PuckSR
Admit it Derek, you missed me
Derek1148
Friendship is the only thing that is real. Everything else is smoke and mirrors.

I have a wooden stake just in case I'm wrong.
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (PuckSR+Aug 13 2009, 09:25 PM)
Ancient people didn't understand yeast, and therefore weren't able to regulate the type of yeast used. This most likely resulted in a wine with a decently high alcohol content(~10%) and a flavor similar to an Lambic Ale.

1. Where is your evidence that ancient people didn't understand yeast well enough to figure out that different yeasts produce different levels of fermentation?
2. You could also mix wine with grape juice, even if you can't ferment it to 8% alcohol content.

QUOTE
Your argument shows an ignorance for wine-making.

Your argument shows a desperate desire to one up me. Which of those two traits is the more forgivable? laugh.gif

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Your argument shows an ignorance for wine-making.

Your argument shows a desperate desire to one up me. Which of those two traits is the more forgivable? laugh.gif

As far as the article you linked, it points out that wine is absurdly common in Israel. He actually jokes that wine is more common than water.

Another straw man? Yeesh, I'd have thought you'd get sick of proving yourself to be a dishonest person by now...

QUOTE
P.S. Sweeter wine wasn't any cheaper. Only modern methods make wines like blush cheaper than savory wines. Also, a bunch of shitfaced friends can be fun.

1. Was un-fermented grape juice cheaper?
2. Where's the evidence?
3. I don't think conservative societies with strong taboos against excessive drunkenness and hordes of drunk people generally mix well. Call me crazy. rolleyes.gif
orestis
QUOTE (PuckSR+Aug 13 2009, 07:36 PM)
So, I recently started working with a Christian guy who doesn't drink.  AT ALL

How do I get him to start drinking?
I work with a group of guys who all love beer, and this poor guy is going to feel left out if he doesn't learn to enjoy life a bit more.


Im not clear why you want him to start drinking.

If the person is interesting, being a non-drinking Christian shoudnt matter. Invite him to go with you all and he can do the driving.

If he is a pain in the *** and is trying to turn all of you into Christians, tell him to get fucked and dont invite him anywhere.

But why do you want him to start drinking? Is this a personal challenge that you've taken on for yourself?
nopEda
QUOTE (PuckSR+Aug 13 2009, 11:36 PM)
How do I get him to start drinking?

laugh.gif

Just let the guy start when and if he feels like it. If he never does, then so what? Here are two ideas to consider on this subject:

1. when you get around to it, try not to do things that could cause a person to screw up their life.

2. if you know someone who actually would like to hang out with you guys and not drink, then thank God for a free designated driver.
PuckSR
QUOTE
1. Where is your evidence that ancient people didn't understand yeast well enough to figure out that different yeasts produce different levels of fermentation?
2. You could also mix wine with grape juice, even if you can't ferment it to 8% alcohol content.


Where is my evidence that ancient people didn't understand yeast?
The fact that they didn't have microscopes!
Here, let me give you a random example
Reinheitsgebot- it established that beer only be made with the following ingredients: hops, barley, and water. It was written in 1516.
It doesn't mention yeast, because in 1516 no one knew what yeast was!!!!
In fact, top fermenting vs bottom fermenting yeast(very important, ale vs lager) wasn't figured out until the 19th century.

Where is my evidence?
It is a historical fact. They just thought that beer and wine randomly fermented. Lambic ale is actually the practice of leaving your window open so that the beer will ferment

Now, why not mix in more grape juice?
Well..this is an interesting lesson. This is actually how they did control yeast to some small degree. They kept some of it. This was also the same practice used in bread(you keep a small starter)

If you add grape juice to fermented wine(not modern wine, we kill the yeast) you get...even more wine. You see, yeast can multiply and maintain a basic level of survival. When you add more sugar(grape juice) you get the yeast growing again...and you get more wine

Now, you keep mentioning "weak wine", but I guess I dont have any idea what you are talking about. I was working under the assumption that one could make a weak wine if they killed the yeast, but I have never actually heard of a weak wine. Are you thinking of something like a blush or a zinfandel? Those are both VERY sweet wines, which still peak at about 11% alcohol.
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
1. Where is your evidence that ancient people didn't understand yeast well enough to figure out that different yeasts produce different levels of fermentation?
2. You could also mix wine with grape juice, even if you can't ferment it to 8% alcohol content.


Where is my evidence that ancient people didn't understand yeast?
The fact that they didn't have microscopes!
Here, let me give you a random example
Reinheitsgebot- it established that beer only be made with the following ingredients: hops, barley, and water. It was written in 1516.
It doesn't mention yeast, because in 1516 no one knew what yeast was!!!!
In fact, top fermenting vs bottom fermenting yeast(very important, ale vs lager) wasn't figured out until the 19th century.

Where is my evidence?
It is a historical fact. They just thought that beer and wine randomly fermented. Lambic ale is actually the practice of leaving your window open so that the beer will ferment

Now, why not mix in more grape juice?
Well..this is an interesting lesson. This is actually how they did control yeast to some small degree. They kept some of it. This was also the same practice used in bread(you keep a small starter)

If you add grape juice to fermented wine(not modern wine, we kill the yeast) you get...even more wine. You see, yeast can multiply and maintain a basic level of survival. When you add more sugar(grape juice) you get the yeast growing again...and you get more wine

Now, you keep mentioning "weak wine", but I guess I dont have any idea what you are talking about. I was working under the assumption that one could make a weak wine if they killed the yeast, but I have never actually heard of a weak wine. Are you thinking of something like a blush or a zinfandel? Those are both VERY sweet wines, which still peak at about 11% alcohol.
Your argument shows a desperate desire to one up me. Which of those two traits is the more forgivable? laugh.gif

Failure to understand wine/beer is unforgivable in my book
QUOTE
1. Was un-fermented grape juice cheaper?
2. Where's the evidence?
3. I don't think conservative societies with strong taboos against excessive drunkenness and hordes of drunk people generally mix well. Call me crazy. rolleyes.gif

Well, unfermented grape juice outside of harvest season was ROTTEN GRAPE JUICE.
So, I guess it probably was cheaper. Just like raw meat that is 3 months old is probably absurdly cheap.(In fact, I think they pay people to get rid of it)
Where is the evidence? Well, I want you to go get some organic grape juice and open the lid. Now leave it unrefrigerated for a week. Now, you tell me if it is edible(P.S. You might want to remove the mold first)
As far as a society with a taboo against drinking, you really need to understand the culture. This is a society that drank regularly. They had strong taboos against being drunk BECAUSE it was so easy to get carried away.
Also, drunk is a bit of a fluid term.
Someone famously quipped "You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." I like to think you get drunk a bit before that. However, your interpretation of drunk would probably clash with your ancestors.

hope I have informed you. If you have any other alcohol related questions, dont hesitate to ask. I will probably be drinking
PuckSR
QUOTE
Just let the guy start when and if he feels like it. If he never does, then so what? Here are two ideas to consider on this subject:

1. when you get around to it, try not to do things that could cause a person to screw up their life.

2. if you know someone who actually would like to hang out with you guys and not drink, then thank God for a free designated driver.


First, beer wont screw up anyone's life.
Drinking will screw up some people's lives(alcoholics), but the beverage itself doesn't harm anyone

Second, why would I thank your god?
I don't need a designated driver, we dont drink heavily.

The reason this guy needs to start drinking is that we are all beer nerds. We make beer, we drink beer, we seek out wonderful beers.
Let me put this in a different context.
Imagine all of my co-workers were fans of rock music. We went to concerts together, talk about rock music, etc.
This guy isn't a music fan at all, and has never been to a concert of any type. He thinks music is stupid.
How well do you think that individual would get along with a group of hardcore music enthusiasts?
Derek1148
QUOTE (PuckSR+Aug 14 2009, 11:51 PM)
Also, drunk is a bit of a fluid term.

For once, I agree with you. There is no legal definition of being drunk (or being intoxicated). There is a legal definition for operating a motor vehicle while under the influence of alcohol (.08% BAC).
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (PuckSR+Aug 14 2009, 06:51 PM)

Where is my evidence that ancient people didn't understand yeast?
The fact that they didn't have microscopes!
Here, let me give you a random example
Reinheitsgebot- it established that beer only be made with the following ingredients: hops, barley, and water.  It was written in 1516.
It doesn't mention yeast, because in 1516 no one knew what yeast was!!!!
In fact, top fermenting vs bottom fermenting yeast(very important, ale vs lager) wasn't figured out until the 19th century.

Where is my evidence?
It is a historical fact.  They just thought that beer and wine randomly fermented.  Lambic ale is actually the practice of leaving your window open so that the beer will ferment

Now, why not mix in more grape juice?
Well..this is an interesting lesson.  This is actually how they did control yeast to some small degree.  They kept some of it.  This was also the same practice used in bread(you keep a small starter)

If you add grape juice to fermented wine(not modern wine, we kill the yeast) you get...even more wine.  You see, yeast can multiply and maintain a basic level of survival.  When you add more sugar(grape juice) you get the yeast growing again...and you get more wine

Now, you keep mentioning "weak wine", but I guess I dont have any idea what you are talking about.  I was working under the assumption that one could make a weak wine if they killed the yeast, but I have never actually heard of a weak wine.  Are you thinking of something like a blush or a zinfandel?  Those are both VERY sweet wines, which still peak at about 11% alcohol.

Fine, there's no such thing as "weak wine" and your assumption that I was referring to watered down wine is valid. You've gone from 7 to 6 straw men in a single argument.
Of course, there's still no evidence. Not even a link to wikipedia. There's also a good argument against your claims, but I don't really care enough to debate the point with you. I forgive your argument from insistence, and for the purposes of this discussion, accept your claim.

QUOTE
Failure to understand wine/beer is unforgivable in my book

I'm not going to point out that this is another logical fallacy. Errr damn, too late... I mean, I'm not going to point out which logical fallacy this is.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Failure to understand wine/beer is unforgivable in my book

I'm not going to point out that this is another logical fallacy. Errr damn, too late... I mean, I'm not going to point out which logical fallacy this is.

Well, unfermented grape juice outside of harvest season was ROTTEN GRAPE JUICE. So, I guess it probably was cheaper.  Just like raw meat that is 3 months old is probably absurdly cheap.(In fact, I think they pay people to get rid of it) Where is the evidence?  Well, I want you to go get some organic grape juice and open the lid.  Now leave it unrefrigerated for a week.  Now, you tell me if it is edible(P.S.  You might want to remove the mold first)

You completely missed the fact that I mentioned mixing it with wine? blink.gif You just talked about mixing it with wine!!! Ok, whatever. To err is human, to forgive is... Well, I forgive you anyways.

QUOTE
As far as a society with a taboo against drinking, you really need to understand the culture.  This is a society that drank regularly.  They had strong taboos against being drunk BECAUSE it was so easy to get carried away. Also, drunk is a bit of a fluid term. Someone famously quipped "You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on."  I like to think you get drunk a bit before that.  However, your interpretation of drunk would probably clash with your ancestors. 

This is another fallacy. Again, I'll leave it up to you to figure out which one, unless you want me to tell you, in which case just ask. smile.gif

The reasons for such a taboo do not erase the presence of the taboo. If prostitution was rare in western culture, it likely wouldn't be illegal, yet you still don't usually see hookers at a party. (unless it's a really good party...)

For the sake of argument, let's say "Drunk" means "consistently demonstrating poor judgement," which would be perfectly in keeping with the times and the locale. It doesn't much matter if the guy can walk; if he's hitting on a camel, he's drunk.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
As far as a society with a taboo against drinking, you really need to understand the culture.  This is a society that drank regularly.  They had strong taboos against being drunk BECAUSE it was so easy to get carried away. Also, drunk is a bit of a fluid term. Someone famously quipped "You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on."  I like to think you get drunk a bit before that.  However, your interpretation of drunk would probably clash with your ancestors. 

This is another fallacy. Again, I'll leave it up to you to figure out which one, unless you want me to tell you, in which case just ask. smile.gif

The reasons for such a taboo do not erase the presence of the taboo. If prostitution was rare in western culture, it likely wouldn't be illegal, yet you still don't usually see hookers at a party. (unless it's a really good party...)

For the sake of argument, let's say "Drunk" means "consistently demonstrating poor judgement," which would be perfectly in keeping with the times and the locale. It doesn't much matter if the guy can walk; if he's hitting on a camel, he's drunk.

hope I have informed you.  If you have any other alcohol related questions, dont hesitate to ask.  I will probably be drinking

No comment...
PuckSR
QUOTE
Fine, there's no such thing as "weak wine" and your assumption that I was referring to watered down wine is valid. You've gone from 7 to 6 straw men in a single argument.
Of course, there's still no evidence. Not even a link to wikipedia. There's also a good argument against your claims, but I don't really care enough to debate the point with you. I forgive your argument from insistence, and for the purposes of this discussion, accept your claim.

It took you 3 days and a lot of debate.

It appears that in that time you didn't bother to read up on wine.
You didn't provide me an example of a "weak wine"

You just stood by a position and repeated your argument. Unfortunately for you, this is a topic of which I am intimately knowledgeable

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Fine, there's no such thing as "weak wine" and your assumption that I was referring to watered down wine is valid. You've gone from 7 to 6 straw men in a single argument.
Of course, there's still no evidence. Not even a link to wikipedia. There's also a good argument against your claims, but I don't really care enough to debate the point with you. I forgive your argument from insistence, and for the purposes of this discussion, accept your claim.

It took you 3 days and a lot of debate.

It appears that in that time you didn't bother to read up on wine.
You didn't provide me an example of a "weak wine"

You just stood by a position and repeated your argument. Unfortunately for you, this is a topic of which I am intimately knowledgeable

I'm not going to point out that this is another logical fallacy. Errr damn, too late... I mean, I'm not going to point out which logical fallacy this is.

It isn't any logical fallacy.
It is a response. That is all. We are not having a formal debate. This is an internet forum. You asked me a question. I responded.
How could that possibly be a "logical fallacy"?

Jokes are also logical fallacies.
I think I see your problem

QUOTE
This is another fallacy. Again, I'll leave it up to you to figure out which one, unless you want me to tell you, in which case just ask. smile.gif

The reasons for such a taboo do not erase the presence of the taboo. If prostitution was rare in western culture, it likely wouldn't be illegal, yet you still don't usually see hookers at a party. (unless it's a really good party...)

For the sake of argument, let's say "Drunk" means "consistently demonstrating poor judgement," which would be perfectly in keeping with the times and the locale. It doesn't much matter if the guy can walk; if he's hitting on a camel, he's drunk.


It isn't a fallacy either.
This is once again, a very true statement.

Now, lets go with your "hitting on a camel" example.
Do you realize how drunk someone would have to be to think a camel was a person?
We aren't talking about 1 or 2 BOTTLES of wine. You would have vomited and nearly passed out at that point. I know you were using "hitting on a camel" as a hyperbole, so don't immediately respond with "Fallacy!!". We get it, you learned a new word in school.

The point is still the same. It takes quite a bit of alcohol to start behaving truly irresponsibly. This is especially true if you drink frequently(and have learned to be more careful when drinking)

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
This is another fallacy. Again, I'll leave it up to you to figure out which one, unless you want me to tell you, in which case just ask. smile.gif

The reasons for such a taboo do not erase the presence of the taboo. If prostitution was rare in western culture, it likely wouldn't be illegal, yet you still don't usually see hookers at a party. (unless it's a really good party...)

For the sake of argument, let's say "Drunk" means "consistently demonstrating poor judgement," which would be perfectly in keeping with the times and the locale. It doesn't much matter if the guy can walk; if he's hitting on a camel, he's drunk.


It isn't a fallacy either.
This is once again, a very true statement.

Now, lets go with your "hitting on a camel" example.
Do you realize how drunk someone would have to be to think a camel was a person?
We aren't talking about 1 or 2 BOTTLES of wine. You would have vomited and nearly passed out at that point. I know you were using "hitting on a camel" as a hyperbole, so don't immediately respond with "Fallacy!!". We get it, you learned a new word in school.

The point is still the same. It takes quite a bit of alcohol to start behaving truly irresponsibly. This is especially true if you drink frequently(and have learned to be more careful when drinking)

"Drunk" means "consistently demonstrating poor judgement,"

Alright, and how much alcohol do you think you have to consume to be "drunk"?
One glass of wine?
Two glasses?

In my experience, to consistently demonstrate poor judgement, you might need to drink 7-8 glasses. Of course, other people might need to only drink 2. It all depends.
Jesus might have been drinking wine since his bar mitzvah and capable of handling 3-4 bottles of wine without getting drunk
nopEda
QUOTE (PuckSR+Aug 15 2009, 01:30 AM)

First, beer wont screw up anyone's life.
Drinking will screw up some people's lives(alcoholics), but the beverage itself doesn't harm anyone

Second, why would I thank your god?

A person thanks God when he/she is thankful for something God may have done. If there's nothing like that in your life, then maybe you can't even comprehend the concept.

QUOTE (PuckSR+)
I don't need a designated driver, we dont drink heavily.

Then you're not doing it right. Yet. If you keep at it though, eventually you'll probably figure it out. Some day you might even move on to something stronger than beer...

QUOTE (PuckSR+)
The reason this guy needs to start drinking is that we are all beer nerds.  We make beer,

Describe the process.

QUOTE (PuckSR+)
we drink beer, we seek out wonderful beers. 

Miller is the best of beers. Coors is close. Bud has too much aftertaste. European and Canadian beers don't even taste like beer. Guiness tastes like a burnt clutch.

QUOTE (PuckSR+)
Let me put this in a different context.
Imagine all of my co-workers were fans of rock music.  We went to concerts together, talk about rock music, etc.
This guy isn't a music fan at all, and has never been to a concert of any type.  He thinks music is stupid.
How well do you think that individual would get along with a group of hardcore music enthusiasts?

What if he liked DIFFERENT music? What if this guy likes to drink DIFFERENT drinks? If he can be happy with a soda or some juice, then it shouldn't matter to you unless your just drinking for the buzz--which btw is the ONLY reason to drink beer--then you shouldn't care whether he drinks beer or milk. If you really are drinking for the buzz, then it should be his business whether he wants to start doing it too or not.

Oh, and btw, if you haven't tried a good dose of Robitusin you're missing some good cheap trippin'. The DM (dextromathoraphin hydrobromide) is what gives you the trip. We used to do a bottle and a half, but if you haven't tried it a full bottle might be good to start with. It's NOT the alcohol, but the DM that gives you the trip, so get whatever has the most DM in it. We used to enjoy the DM buzz alone for an hour or two, and then drink some beer. Just the first beer changes the trip in a big way...
flyingbuttressman
QUOTE (nopEda+Aug 17 2009, 11:28 AM)
Miller is the best of beers. Coors is close. Bud has too much aftertaste. European and Canadian beers don't even taste like beer. Guiness tastes like a burnt clutch.

This says a lot. I'm not that much of a beer aficionado, but I know that Miller and Coors are the sh*ttiest beers on the planet (ok, maybe Busch is the very worst). Maybe you're just to accustomed to drinking piss water that you don't know what real beer is.
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (PuckSR+Aug 15 2009, 10:18 AM)
It took you 3 days and a lot of debate.

It appears that in that time you didn't bother to read up on wine.

Don't get me started on the stupidities and ignorance you've espoused which you still cling to... Your arguments about the wine have been pretty poor so far, notwithstanding the fact that I've accepted one.

QUOTE
You didn't provide me an example of a "weak wine"

You haven't provided a single shred of evidence to support any of your claims, even the one I've accepted, hypocrite.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
You didn't provide me an example of a "weak wine"

You haven't provided a single shred of evidence to support any of your claims, even the one I've accepted, hypocrite.

You just stood by a position and repeated your argument.  Unfortunately for you, this is a topic of which I am intimately knowledgeable

So you keep claiming.

QUOTE
It isn't any logical fallacy.

A red herring is a fallacy, dumbass. Your personal opinion of my interests have nothing at all to do with this discussion.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
It isn't any logical fallacy.

A red herring is a fallacy, dumbass. Your personal opinion of my interests have nothing at all to do with this discussion.

It is a response.  That is all.  We are not having a formal debate.  This is an internet forum.  You asked me a question.  I responded. How could that possibly be a "logical fallacy"?

Because your response was a fallacy, that's how. laugh.gif

I'm not going to bother demonstrating the fallacious nature of every logical fallacy you use. If you haven't got the integrity, intelligence and knowledge to argue honestly, then you've no right to expect me to explain your every fallacy to you.

QUOTE
Jokes are also logical fallacies.

laugh.gif Were you dropped on the head as a child? In addition to being wrong, that claim is itself a fallacy of composition.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Jokes are also logical fallacies.

laugh.gif Were you dropped on the head as a child? In addition to being wrong, that claim is itself a fallacy of composition.

It isn't a fallacy either. This is once again, a very true statement.

Possibly true, but still a fallacy.
The reasons for the social taboo are irrelevant to a discussion which only considers the presence or lack of it.

QUOTE
Now, lets go with your "hitting on a camel" example. Do you realize how drunk someone would have to be to think a camel was a person?

You really have a lot of trouble being honest, don't you?

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Now, lets go with your "hitting on a camel" example. Do you realize how drunk someone would have to be to think a camel was a person?

You really have a lot of trouble being honest, don't you?

The point is still the same.  It takes quite a bit of alcohol to start behaving truly irresponsibly.  This is especially true if you drink frequently(and have learned to be more careful when drinking)

Excuse me? What planet do you live on? Sure, there are a lot of functional alcoholics and drunks out there, but to suggest that it takes a lot of alcohol to impair one's judgement is so far from reality that I'm beginning to wonder about your sanity.

The instant your body starts to absorb alcohol, your judgement starts becoming impaired. The degree of impairment varies from person to person, but it's always there. Even the most functional drunk out there is operating at a lower level of ability than they would do so when sober, and would certainly see their judgement impaired to an even greater degree if participating in a celebration which involves heavy drinking.

No drunk is going to stop drinking for the few days leading up to such a party, but will continue to maintain their desired level of intoxication until the party, at which point they will almost inevitably drink far more than they're used to drinking.
nopEda
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Aug 17 2009, 05:40 PM)
This says a lot. I'm not that much of a beer aficionado, but I know that Miller and Coors are the sh*ttiest beers on the planet (ok, maybe Busch is the very worst). Maybe you're just to accustomed to drinking piss water that you don't know what real beer is.

Those are real beers as beer is intended to be, not some half fruity tasting junk like imported beers. Hams is the worst. There's nothing great about Bud either though, and look at all the people they fool. One band I worked with gave me sh*t about drinking miller, so I did a little taste test and all of them liked Miller better when they didn't know the difference. They had one very much a drunk friend who liked the Bud better...he tasted the first sample and said "That's Bud", then tasted the other and said "That's Miller. I like Bud." The rest of them liked Miller better, but still continued drinking Bud because it was more popular.
buttershug
QUOTE (nopEda+Aug 17 2009, 08:05 PM)
Those are real beers as beer is intended to be,

I bet the real situation is those are the first beers you had.
And that you can't unlearn.
flyingbuttressman
QUOTE (nopEda+Aug 17 2009, 03:05 PM)
Those are real beers as beer is intended to be, not some half fruity tasting junk like imported beers. Hams is the worst. There's nothing great about Bud either though, and look at all the people they fool. One band I worked with gave me sh*t about drinking miller, so I did a little taste test and all of them liked Miller better when they didn't know the difference. They had one very much a drunk friend who liked the Bud better...he tasted the first sample and said "That's Bud", then tasted the other and said "That's Miller. I like Bud." The rest of them liked Miller better, but still continued drinking Bud because it was more popular.

Or you could realize that 'American' beer is sh*t beer because it's produced in a factory with little regard to quality. 'Real' beer is produced in smaller batches and the brands are usually local. Boston has Harpoon and Sam Adams, both good quality beer brands. You are right in saying that there isn't much of a difference between Bud, Miller and Coors.
PuckSR
QUOTE

No drunk is going to stop drinking for the few days leading up to such a party, but will continue to maintain their desired level of intoxication until the party, at which point they will almost inevitably drink far more than they're used to drinking.

Wow...assuming much?

QUOTE (->
QUOTE

No drunk is going to stop drinking for the few days leading up to such a party, but will continue to maintain their desired level of intoxication until the party, at which point they will almost inevitably drink far more than they're used to drinking.

Wow...assuming much?

Describe the process.

Depends. I like All-grain brewing

You start with your grain. This is whole grain.
You grind your grain and then sparge it. Sparging is the process of extracting the starch and sugars of the grain.
You then take this malt extract and heat with water.
This is when you add your flavoring. Coriander is popular, as well as spice, citrus, etc
This is also when you add that flavoring which is so famous: hops
Hops(and most flavorings) don't stay in the beer, they are removed so as not to alter the beer.
After your wort is cooked, you cool it down. Rapid cooling produces a cleaner tasting beer in most cases.
After the wort has cooled to room temperature, you add yeast and seal away. It is important that you don't fully seal the wort, but allow carbon dioxide to escape(via a trap)
After the wort has fermented you now have beer.

What you do from there depends on your setup. The simple route is to bottle the beer. You would think this just requires you to put the beer in a bottle, but you need that essential carbon dioxide.
To achieve carbonation we add a bit more sugar to the beer. This sugar will be converted by the yeast into carbon dioxide. The side effect of this method is that the yeast fall to the bottom of the bottle. This is why bottle-conditioned beers can never be fully drank. You should leave that residue in the bottom. It is not part of the flavor.

Allow to age for a month to a year(depending on the beer) and then enjoy

QUOTE
Or you could realize that 'American' beer is sh*t beer because it's produced in a factory with little regard to quality. 'Real' beer is produced in smaller batches and the brands are usually local. Boston has Harpoon and Sam Adams, both good quality beer brands. You are right in saying that there isn't much of a difference between Bud, Miller and Coors.

No. the problem is the same as with all art.....
The popular must be bland. If it isn't, you run the risk of people not liking it.
Strong, rich, and complex flavored beers are delicious...if you like it. If you don't like it, then it is undrinkable
It doesn't matter if you like or dislike Miller High Life, you can still drink it.(by the way, that clear bottle is special)

You want a good American beer?
Sam Adams makes some decent beer, not great but alright.
Try their Chocolate Bock if you want something good.
Stone makes great beers for every taste. Their Ruination IPA is amazing. Their Russian Imperial is one of the best in the world. They also distribute for Russian River Brewing Co. They make some amazing beers. Try their Pliny the Elder for an amazingly complex and delicious beer
Now that covers the East and West, but what about the South?
You might want to try Abita. They make a nice dark beer called Turbodog. It is the favorite beer of Emeril Lagassi.
They also make a special edition Dubbel that can only be bought in Louisiana and the surrounding areas. It is called Abbey Ale. It is great!
Now, what if you live in the middle of this great country?
Think New Belgium(the makers of Fat Tire). Their regular beer is okay. If you like a Wit beer, their Mothership Wit is ok
You know what is really good though? Their dubbel and Tripel. Those two beers are like a religious experience in themselves.

Want a great Canadian Beer?
La Fin du Monde is amazing, so is their Trois Pistols

Need to go international?
The netherlands makes some great beer, and the Belgium beers are good. Watch out for German beers. They aren't bad, but their claim that it is the best beer in the world is somewhat dubious. It isn't bad, but it is fairly stagnant as far as originality.
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