adoucette
21st February 2011 - 02:56 PM
It helps to put her attack in the context of the night in that square:
To put the size of crowds in perspective:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-qq4i_2Zrm6A/TVN6...hrir-square.jpgNow here's a video I found that shows the general mood of the crowd:
http://www.theurbn.com/2011/02/bye-bye-mubarak-video-egypt/Clearly a jubilant crowd and generally well behaved. The soldiers are not all armed and they seem to be in accord with the group they are helping to control.
But there were far more people there than there were soldiers and police are not to be seen.
The next point is that there was no rape, and by that I mean the normal definition of rape, vaginal penetration.
As Laura herself said:
QUOTE
"The attack was so sudden” Logan told her distraught family in Durban, where she was born. She had “no chance of escaping”.
In the crush, she was separated from her crew. During the attack that followed, her clothes were ripped off, she was kicked and punched, her hair pulled out and she was sexually attacked. She said she had escaped being raped because of the intervention of a group of women who threw themselves on top of her, protecting her from further harm. Egyptian soldiers, she said, also came to her aid and escorted her back to her hotel.
I'm not trying to minimze the brutal attack but to point out that without vaginal penetration, there is not likely to be DNA evidence that might link the authorities to actual suspects.
The next point comes from other reports from that day:
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
"The attack was so sudden” Logan told her distraught family in Durban, where she was born. She had “no chance of escaping”.
In the crush, she was separated from her crew. During the attack that followed, her clothes were ripped off, she was kicked and punched, her hair pulled out and she was sexually attacked. She said she had escaped being raped because of the intervention of a group of women who threw themselves on top of her, protecting her from further harm. Egyptian soldiers, she said, also came to her aid and escorted her back to her hotel. |
I'm not trying to minimze the brutal attack but to point out that without vaginal penetration, there is not likely to be DNA evidence that might link the authorities to actual suspects.
The next point comes from other reports from that day:
Her clothes were ripped off. She was kicked, punched, and pinched and whipped with flag poles. Attackers kicked her and ripped out her hair. During the attack that occurred at 1 a.m., the men involved in the assault yelled 'Israeli Jew" at the veteran international correspondent. Logan has ... said she feared for life during the assault. A group of women jumped on top of Logan to stop the attack. CBS reported that 20 Egyptian soldiers intervened in Logan's attack. But those Egyptian soldiers were also badly beaten by the crowd. One soldier suffered a broken arm.
And here we find that Egyptian women and many soldiers intervened to stop the attack, so it is clear that this attack was not condoned by other Egyptians nor by the authorites on the site. Indeed, this description and the unusual nature of this event which is quite unlike the event in general, makes me suspicious that this was possibly orchestrated by pro-Mubarck elements to generate negative feelings towards the demonstrators (just sayin, and it wouldn't be the first time such has occurred)
The next point comes from another report and it's important as well:
QUOTE
CBS correspondent Lara Logan was covering the jubilation in Tahrir Square for a 60 MINUTES story when she and her team and their security were surrounded by a dangerous element amidst the celebration. It was a mob of more than 200 people whipped into frenzy.
So what we can gather from this, is that even in the mist of this generally peaceful celebration, there were sub-groups which just naturally form and apparently she got caught by a particularly nasty one, and maybe it was only 200 or so out of the many thousands in the square that night, but it was sufficently large group to be able to have its own rules of behavior, which is what allowed this sustained attack to occur.
The importance of this is that the attack would tend to be in the center of this group, not the fringes and thus, most of those near the action were likely more supportive of the action and thus there is probably a good reason why no You-tube videos of the actual assaut have come forward that could be used to identify the suspects, and without those, prosecution a la Derek's call for justice is highly doubtful.
Finally, here is a picture take just before the assault (note: none of the men are supposedly involved in the attack)
http://www.theurbn.com/wp-content/uploads/...97968909486.jpgWhat I notice (and I could be wrong of course) is that she has already been somewhat isolated, there is not a woman to be seen in the crowd and I suspect the two men around her are her security and she and they already appear to look worried about the developing situation.
So within the context of that oviously joyous celebration of many tens of thousands of Egyptians it would appear that Laura got caught by a relatively small group of angry men and was assaulted until elements from the larger group and the overwhelmed authorities could break it up.
Arthur
http://www.huliq.com/10178/lara-logan-was-...d-tahrir-squarehttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/15/l...a_n_823677.html
boit
21st February 2011 - 04:07 PM
Can the real Derik please stand up? Why, I sincerly hope it is someone else holding him captive and hacked into his account to chun out such, should I say, er. . . GARBAGE? Egypt, like other relatively rich African economies may have a substantial majority chasing ideologies. For some of us it is only the elite that have an ideology. The masses are so engrossed in the most basic issue of survival to think about hating other persons living more than a few tens of miles away. I say this to whoever is impersonating derik, stop being paranoid. We don't hate America.
synthsin75
21st February 2011 - 04:18 PM
Really? 1am, out in an unorganized gathering that large? Even here in the US she'd be taking a similar risking.
adoucette
21st February 2011 - 04:59 PM
QUOTE (synthsin75+Feb 21 2011, 11:18 AM)
Really? 1am, out in an unorganized gathering that large? Even here in the US she'd be taking a similar risking.
Possibly, but for most gatherings, I don't think so.
It has to do with the mood of the different factions within the crowd and their intent.
They were after all there to celebrate the overturning of Authority, not celebrate their team's victory at Soccer.
And so while as the video shows most of the people there would do no such thing, and were with their kids and just waving flags and thinking good thoughts about a new Democratic Egypt, but there surely were also factions of much more militant people there who not only hated Mubarck but the US as well and she clearly stood out in the crowd, with her blonde hair, as "not one of us".
As one of the reports said:
QUOTE
It is now believed that amid the celebrations over the resignation of Mubarak, an unruly mob of about 200 had entered the square, hellbent on mayhem and destruction.
and it's that faction you would not likely encounter in a random late night celebratory gathering in the US.
http://www.iol.co.za/news/africa/logan-tel...sault-1.1029312Arthur
Derek1148
21st February 2011 - 05:04 PM
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 21 2011, 04:59 PM)
... more militant people there who not only hated Mubarck but the US as well and she clearly stood out in the crowd, with her blonde hair, as "not one of us".
Arthur
Finally some logical thinking.
adoucette
21st February 2011 - 05:10 PM
But Derek, considering how the event unfolded, your:
QUOTE
We should withhold all foreign aid to that country, until the perpetrators are located and handed over to us for proper justice.
is not logical.
There is no reason to believe the Govt sanctioned this or knows who the perpetrators are.
Indeed, the govt at that time was effectively the military and from what we read they fought with these people as well (and for all we know the perps may indeed be under a jail right now).
Arthur
Derek1148
21st February 2011 - 05:12 PM
QUOTE (synthsin75+Feb 21 2011, 04:18 PM)
Even here in the US she'd be taking a similar risking.
More illogical thinking. (Being stripped in street, beaten, sexually assaulted, and called a "Jew." And no attempt to make an apprehension. Where? In D.C. during a peace rally? Jesus Christ.)
Derek1148
21st February 2011 - 05:16 PM
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 21 2011, 05:10 PM)
(and for all we know the perps may indeed be under a jail right now).
Arthur
Let's hope so.
synthsin75
21st February 2011 - 05:45 PM
QUOTE (Derek1148+Feb 21 2011, 11:12 AM)
More illogical thinking. (Being stripped in street, beaten, sexually assaulted, and called a "Jew." And no attempt to make an apprehension. Where? In D.C. during a peace rally? Jesus Christ.)
Really? An impromptu crowd formed beyond any normal routine, and without any real presence of law. Even at amusement parks or fair grounds, group violence is liable to erupt, and that's with proper planning of law enforcement personnel. Subtract the security precautions and I think the odds of something similar increase. And no leads does not equal no attempt to apprehend.
fredinjeddah
21st February 2011 - 06:27 PM
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 21 2011, 02:56 PM)
It helps to put her attack in the context of the night in that square:
Great analysis, and I think pretty accurate. It is clear that this faction of 200 was a rogue element, and considering their reigime was tumbling as a result of this gathering in Tahrir square. To me it seems very plausable that a faction other than the one supporting a new governement would become threatened and would retaliate by doing something that would catch the international communities attention (and apparently Derek's).
It may not even be pro Mubarak supporters, it may be another faction who do not want freedom and democracy for egyptians. The problem (one of the many) is that too many factions are involved, and some even come from outside egypt, all with their own agenda.
Good for the people that helped (they showed compassion synthsin :-)
I think part of the responsibility should be on CBS executives for allowing a pretty blonde woman to cover the story. I am not saying she is not capable (or that woman should not report), from what I understand she is reasonably well respected in her profession, but in the context of egypt alone, and then during a revolution, I think it was un-wise for her to venture out onto the streets that night.
Derek1148
21st February 2011 - 06:31 PM
QUOTE (fredinjeddah+Feb 21 2011, 06:27 PM)
I think part of the responsibility should be on CBS executives for allowing a pretty blonde woman to cover the story. I am not saying she is not capable (or that woman should not report), from what I understand she is reasonably well respected in her profession, but in the context of egypt alone, and then during a revolution, I think it was un-wise for her to venture out onto the streets that night.
When dealing with animals and the uncivilized, you might be right.
fredinjeddah
21st February 2011 - 06:36 PM
QUOTE (Derek1148+Feb 21 2011, 05:04 PM)
Finally some logical thinking.
OMG I just fell off my bed!!!
Your thought pattern on this has been so illogical, I can only assume when you read what adoucette wrote, you understood it to mean something else.
fredinjeddah
21st February 2011 - 06:48 PM
QUOTE (Derek1148+Feb 21 2011, 06:31 PM)
When dealing with animals and the uncivilized, you might be right.
Your problem is you categorize every egyptian, and I have no doubt in my mind, every arab too, as an animal and uncivilized. Trust me, that is purley a reflection of you and your psyche and nothing reflective of the reality.
Who else is on your list? Non whites? Jews? Atheists? Italians? Everyone except you and your xenophobic bretheren?
You are exactly part of the reason so many people hate Americans. Thankfully I have met enough good US citizens to know, you are not a majority, and hopefully never will be.
flyingbuttressman
21st February 2011 - 07:14 PM
Let's not forget that Derek was opposed to Egyptian democracy even before this assault case came to light.
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=479091It seems he would rather have a pro-American dictator than a democracy.
This Lara Logan case is just an excuse for him to justify his fear and hatred of foreigners.
synthsin75
21st February 2011 - 08:39 PM
QUOTE (fredinjeddah+Feb 21 2011, 12:27 PM)
Good for the people that helped (they showed compassion synthsin :-)
I think there's enough cross posting in this thread already.
fredinjeddah
21st February 2011 - 09:37 PM
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Feb 21 2011, 07:14 PM)
Let's not forget that Derek was opposed to Egyptian democracy even before this assault case came to light.
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=479091It seems he would rather have a pro-American dictator than a democracy.
This Lara Logan case is just an excuse for him to justify his fear and hatred of foreigners.
I did not know Derek was obsessed by the egyptian thing, I somehow missed the entire threads debate that you posted.
The scary thing is, I am imagining Dereks mentality sitting in an office of some serious authority, making un-informed , xenophobic decisions that may effect others lives thousands of miles away.
fredinjeddah
21st February 2011 - 09:58 PM
QUOTE (synthsin75+Feb 21 2011, 08:39 PM)
I think there's enough cross posting in this thread already.
Touche, or should it be touchy?
Derek1148
22nd February 2011 - 02:02 AM
QUOTE (fredinjeddah+Feb 21 2011, 06:27 PM)
I think part of the responsibility should be on CBS executives for allowing a pretty blonde woman to cover the story.
Do you think if she was unattractive it would have been okay?
boit
22nd February 2011 - 03:59 AM
QUOTE (Derek1148+Feb 22 2011, 05:02 AM)
Do you think if she was unattractive it would have been okay?
That's pretty much what you want to hear. Now how attractive is 'much'? And for the record: the animals are innocent. Apart from some few horses earlier in the demo, I didn't see any animal.
NymphaeaAlba
22nd February 2011 - 01:52 PM
QUOTE (orestis+Feb 20 2011, 03:49 PM)
There are some logistics involved before the military can use those. But a military doesn't need magnets. Over the last 3-4 thousand years they have learned all kinds of tricks.
Here is a tragic documentary of some of the tricks used, not only on soldiers, but also on civilians to numb and turn them into being brutal. No, not just brutal but cruel.
Worse Then WarGreat documentary, Orestis.
“Groupthink is one of the most troublesome downfalls of organized society. Today, it manifests itself on a sliding scale of severity, ranging from genocide to bullying to superstition to fashion fads to the “Digg mentality” of news reporting. Still, most of us refuse to believe that our opinions, perception and worldview are being in any way shaped by those of others. And yet they are.”On ConformityWas it really only mob mentality? I agree with Derek. I think it was cultural and religious influence. The women need to change, as well. They should look further back into their history, before Umar, when ancient women of Egypt were ahead of their time. When they not only had the same basic rights as men but ruled.
“There is evidence that many women in Saudi Arabia do not want radical change. Westerners criticize what they do not understand. "Look, we are not asking for ... women's rights according to Western values or lifestyles ... We want things according to what Islam says. Look at our history, our role models."QUOTE
Democracy is for everyone, or so popular conceptions would suppose. As Peter Berger (1963) reminds us however, oftentimes “things are not what they seem”. While politicians in the US, for example, point to democracy as a means to eliminating terrorism and expanding freedom (eg, Bush 2005), it has also been hailed as a tool for empowering women in less developed countries. Assessing levels of democracy and the mechanisms that lie behind the emergence and sustenance of these political institutions has produced informative work in the area of political sociology, and the review that follows touches on the myriad of conclusions that have flowed from these studies. However, studies of democracy have been surprisingly silent with regards to stratification, specifically regarding gender disparity. To borrow a term from Reynolds (2002), there appears to be a form of “amnesia” surrounding issues of gender inequity in the empirical democracy literature. The lack of inclusion of gender equality as a measure of democracy would seem to be a major problem when theoretical works which point to the troubles of liberal democracy in incorporating women (cf. Okin 1992; Pateman 1989) are considered. As Tilly (2000) has suggested, there are many aspects of sustainable democracy that are not well understood, and further study is needed to more fully explain the intricacies of democratization. Waylen (1994) suggests that in order to consider gender we must move beyond measuring only institutional political structures to operationalize democracy and reconsider orthodox definitions of civil society and citizenship. This study attempts to test the usefulness of these suggestions, and analyze the effectiveness of democratic governments in fostering gender equality. Specifically, this paper comparatively explores how government type, from authoritarian to democratic, advance the economic, social and political rights of women. Gender theorists suggest that gender is a primary organizing principle of the state (Connell 1987; Tickner 2001), and therefore will impact the application of any political structure, including democracy.”
“A recent incident of "gang rape" took place in Cairo, where thousands of men blatantly and publicly attacked women in the streets after watching a famous belly dancer performing publicly. The government accused the belly dancer of public "incitement". Rape and Gender Ideology in EgyptMona Eltahawy on Violence against Women in Egypt
Derek1148
22nd February 2011 - 05:40 PM
QUOTE (NymphaeaAlba+Feb 22 2011, 01:52 PM)
I agree with Derek.
I agree with you for agreeing with me. The rest of the ilk have it wrong.
flyingbuttressman
22nd February 2011 - 05:48 PM
QUOTE (Derek1148+Feb 22 2011, 12:40 PM)
I agree with you for agreeing with me. The rest of the ilk have it wrong.
Have what wrong?
Are you arguing that this incident happened because of Egypt's inferior culture or because she stood out in a foreign country? I would be no more shocked if this happened in the United States during a riot. Should the United States have to apologize to foreign countries over what happens to their citizens in our country?
fredinjeddah
22nd February 2011 - 07:54 PM
QUOTE (Derek1148+Feb 22 2011, 02:02 AM)
Do you think if she was unattractive it would have been okay?
No I don't, but why send a female reporter to a country kown for its male harrasment of woman (harrasment in the same way italian men harras woman) and where it is commonly known that blond haired woman are more pursued.
I can see the benefits in doing that, but during a revolution I can see the risks beforehand.
fredinjeddah
22nd February 2011 - 08:08 PM
QUOTE (Derek1148+Feb 22 2011, 05:40 PM)
I agree with you for agreeing with me. The rest of the ilk have it wrong.
I think what NA said was
QUOTE
We are all hoping that they have an ideological, collective plan that includes a normative thought process. We all feel it is good to rise against a coercive power, but an expert power is necessary for human collaboration.
So, do we want to brush off the rape as simple herd behavior, due to our hopes for democracy, and if so, does that feed into a system that supports blatant misogyny?
Holy smokes, I am agreeing with Derek.
Well, not entirely.
That was preceded by this
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
We are all hoping that they have an ideological, collective plan that includes a normative thought process. We all feel it is good to rise against a coercive power, but an expert power is necessary for human collaboration.
So, do we want to brush off the rape as simple herd behavior, due to our hopes for democracy, and if so, does that feed into a system that supports blatant misogyny?
Holy smokes, I am agreeing with Derek.
Well, not entirely. |
That was preceded by this So, are all Egyptians guilty of raping Lara Logan? No, and I do not think that Derek is saying that they are brown savages who cannot control themselves, either.
I disagree with NA here, I do think you believe they are all brown savages who cannot control themselves. Maybe your subsequent posts would have made NA rethink, I don't know, but I do not doubt in my mind, that NA does not have the same belief as you do on this matter.
synthsin75
22nd February 2011 - 09:09 PM
Every country that becomes democratic tends to develop things like gender equality naturally over time, just like the US did. It is overly optimistic to think we can implant our more fully developed ideals without some internal cooperation of a country's people. Were we savages before women's suffrage? Does the fact that rape continues to occur in our country make us savages? Some of us (the perpetrators), sure, but not generally. Likewise, we cannot judge the intent of a nation based on a minority or their lack of development along a line they have just commenced upon.
Free and unsuppressed people will tend to develop along the lines of the rest of the free world. Give them some time to mature and fight their own fights for social equality, hard knocks and all.
Personally, I think the media tends to look for ways to exacerbate and sensationalize any situation. So throwing a pretty blond American woman into the mix, whether she was attacked or just claimed to be (which I'm not necessarily saying of this situation), seems to be in character.
NymphaeaAlba
22nd February 2011 - 09:19 PM
QUOTE (fredinjeddah+Feb 22 2011, 12:08 PM)
I disagree with NA here, I do think you believe they are all brown savages who cannot control themselves. Maybe your subsequent posts would have made NA rethink, I don't know, but I do not doubt in my mind, that NA does not have the same belief as you do on this matter.
Thanks, Fred.
I thought the sentiment that Derek was expressing was that they still have a long way to go.
I don’t agree that flyingbuttressman is stupid, quite the contrary. He is very bright and mature for his age.
Maybe Derek can catch up to him, if he hurries, we’ll see…
QUOTE (synthsin75+)
Free and unsuppressed people will tend to develop along the lines of the rest of the free world. Give them some time to mature and fight their own fights for social equality, hard knocks and all.
Yes, but the Muslim religion is very controlling.
flyingbuttressman
22nd February 2011 - 09:47 PM
QUOTE (NymphaeaAlba+Feb 22 2011, 04:19 PM)
Yes, but the Muslim religion is very controlling.
I really depends on who you ask. Christianity has the same diversity in beliefs and practice. Egypt is actually one of the most progressive Muslim countries. I see Egypt becoming more like Turkey as opposed to Saudi Arabia.
Derek1148
23rd February 2011 - 12:46 AM
NymphaeaAlba,
Are you saying that you don't agree with me?
orestis
23rd February 2011 - 01:18 AM
Derek,
You now have a martyr. She is a blond who killed a brown father, his 9 year old brown daughter and wounded the brown mother. All for right-wing bullshit.
QUOTE
Prosecutors said Forde decided to target the house in Arivaca, Ariz., because she believed Flores was a drug smuggler and would have cash in the house. She wanted money to fund her border protection group, Minutemen American Defense, prosecutors said.
In Derek's face.Extremism, political, religious or cultural is *** up the planet.
NymphaeaAlba
23rd February 2011 - 02:44 AM
QUOTE (Derek1148+Feb 22 2011, 04:46 PM)
NymphaeaAlba,
Are you saying that you don't agree with me?
I don't know. Most of the time I can't figure out what you're even saying.
No worries...
Edit.
Derek1148
23rd February 2011 - 03:36 AM
QUOTE (NymphaeaAlba+Feb 23 2011, 02:44 AM)
I don't know. Most of the time I can't figure out what you're even saying.
No worries...
Edit.
Okay, here's what I'm saying. If Ms. Logan was my daughter, I would have advised her not to put herself in a position where she was vulnerable. However, I understand her desire to advance her career. She can't move forward without covering hard news stories. Reporting on fashion shows aren't going to help her advance. And to be clear she has no culpability in her assault. The culpability lies with the assailants. And I want them brought to justice (or justice delivered to them).
flyingbuttressman
23rd February 2011 - 03:42 AM
QUOTE (Derek1148+Feb 22 2011, 10:36 PM)
And I want them brought to justice (or justice delivered to them).
You've gotta find them first. Any leads?
Derek1148
23rd February 2011 - 03:45 AM
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Feb 23 2011, 03:42 AM)
You've gotta find them first. Any leads?
Well, I was thinking of carpet bombing.
flyingbuttressman
23rd February 2011 - 03:51 AM
QUOTE (Derek1148+Feb 22 2011, 10:45 PM)
Well, I was thinking of carpet bombing.
Nice. So mass murder is an acceptable form of justice now?
orestis
23rd February 2011 - 04:15 AM
QUOTE (Derek1148+Feb 22 2011, 11:45 PM)
Well, I was thinking of carpet bombing.
Le Wimp,
Are you including Arizona as a target for carpet bombing? Logan is still alive, nine year old Brisenia is dead.
You think playing on this forum is fun. And then people get killed in an Arizona mall, one of them another nine year old girl.
You sad, rear-echelon ***. Wishing you had the balls to be more then a uniform.
NymphaeaAlba
23rd February 2011 - 04:34 AM
QUOTE (NymphaeaAlba+)
Yes but the Muslim religion is very controlling
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Feb 22 2011, 01:47 PM)
I really depends on who you ask. Christianity has the same diversity in beliefs and practice. Egypt is actually one of the most progressive Muslim countries. I see Egypt becoming more like Turkey as opposed to Saudi Arabia.
Derek1148
23rd February 2011 - 04:44 AM
QUOTE (orestis+Feb 23 2011, 04:15 AM)
Le Wimp,
Are you including Arizona as a target for carpet bombing? Logan is still alive, nine year old Brisenia is dead.
You think playing on this forum is fun. And then people get killed in an Arizona mall, one of them another nine year old girl.
You sad, rear-echelon ***. Wishing you had the balls to be more then a uniform.
Wait a second, wasn't your MOS - cook?
Derek1148
23rd February 2011 - 04:49 AM
QUOTE (NymphaeaAlba+Feb 23 2011, 04:34 AM)
Well, this was definitely a religious motive.
Four men slashed teacher's face for teaching other religions to Muslim girlsFighter jets on civilians, WТF 
You're wasting your time here. They don't want to hear the truth. And what do you mean you don't understand what I'm saying? I thought I was relatively clear.
flyingbuttressman
23rd February 2011 - 04:52 AM
QUOTE (NymphaeaAlba+Feb 22 2011, 11:34 PM)
Well, this was definitely a religious motive.
Four men slashed teacher's face for teaching other religions to Muslim girlsFighter jets on civilians, WТF
Removing religion won't really solve any problems. If Islam was gone tomorrow, there would still be many people who hate the United States. Gaddafi would still be a psychopath, and tribal customs would still cause horrible things in remote places in the world.
NymphaeaAlba
23rd February 2011 - 05:03 AM
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Feb 22 2011, 08:52 PM)
Removing religion won't really solve any problems.
That's simply not true. The psychopaths will be easier to spot without their megalomaniac god to hide behind.
adoucette
23rd February 2011 - 05:14 AM
QUOTE (NymphaeaAlba+Feb 23 2011, 12:03 AM)
That's simply not true. The psychopaths will be easier to spot without their megalomaniac god to hide behind.
What's true is you can't remove religion from the culture, so it's a moot point.
Indeed, even in Iraq, when they recently wrote their own Constitution, they created an Islamic state, so their law and their religion are intertwined.
The third principle of their constitution reads:
QUOTE
Islam is the state religion and a basic foundation for the country's laws, and no law may contradict the established provisions of Islam.
The idea of any of these Islamic countries ever having the idea of separation of Church and State simply isn't likely to happen during our lifetimes.
Arthur
orestis
23rd February 2011 - 05:26 AM
QUOTE (Derek1148+Feb 23 2011, 12:44 AM)
Wait a second, wasn't your MOS - cook?
Wait another second, isn't your job duty "clerk?"
If you want, Rear Echelon, I'll match my papers and scars with you.
But the point is, the innate stupidity you express is what endangers America from being taken seriously.
Derek1148
23rd February 2011 - 06:33 AM
QUOTE (orestis+Feb 23 2011, 05:26 AM)
But the point is, the innate stupidity you express is what endangers America from being taken seriously.
I don't know about that. But I'm sure your sanctimonious supercilious posts here prevent you from being taken seriously.
fredinjeddah
23rd February 2011 - 07:23 AM
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Feb 22 2011, 09:47 PM)
I really depends on who you ask. Christianity has the same diversity in beliefs and practice. Egypt is actually one of the most progressive Muslim countries. I see Egypt becoming more like Turkey as opposed to Saudi Arabia.
Just to keep everything in perspective, Egypt is a country with both muslims and christians. Both liberal and conservative on both sides. It is one of the more liberal muslim/christian countries and I agree with you, I think it will definately move more toward a Turkey style of government if all goes well.
I think it very telling that the same people in the west who are wanting to carpet bomb egypt (and Derek I am sure is one of a very small minority) are the same people trying to instill fear into everyone, that egypt is going to be taken over by radical muslims.
It is sad to see this happen. They clearly have no desire for peace, and need to create monsters in order to make themselves look good. Of course Derek comes from a country where its own government uses fear as a control tool over its population, so it needs to feed the fear monster or it too will lose control.
I cannot wait for the day when people on the other side of the pond realise that they too have a voice , just like the egyptians do, and they too can stand up to their governments stupidity.
fredinjeddah
23rd February 2011 - 07:31 AM
QUOTE (Derek1148+Feb 23 2011, 06:33 AM)
I don't know about that. But I'm sure your sanctimonious supercilious posts here prevent you from being taken seriously.
I think you should re-read your signature......or at least remove it, because you are that monster.
Wise words on dumb ears, is a sad waste of good philosophy!
Derek1148
23rd February 2011 - 07:38 AM
QUOTE (fredinjeddah+Feb 23 2011, 07:31 AM)
I think you should re-read your signature......or at least remove it, because you are that monster.
Wise words on dumb ears, is a sad waste of good philosophy!
First of all, I wasn't talking to you. And second, I don't care about the opinions of fools and sycophants. And you're both.
orestis
23rd February 2011 - 07:45 AM
QUOTE (Derek1148+Feb 23 2011, 02:33 AM)
I don't know about that. But I'm sure your sanctimonious supercilious posts here prevent you from being taken seriously.
Won't work, hillbilly. Don't avoid the issue.
People from all over the planet read this site.
"Carpet bomb" Egypt for a news reporter is a stupid thing to say while American blonds kill fathers and daughters in Arizona.
fredinjeddah
23rd February 2011 - 08:03 AM
QUOTE (Derek1148+Feb 23 2011, 03:45 AM)
Well, I was thinking of carpet bombing.
Why not just invade and conquer as per normal strategy? What is the going rate in the US for the sexual assault and physical assault of an american?
1 sexual assault = 10 000 egyptians?
Islam preaches an eye for an eye (not that I particularly agree with that) and Derek has the audacity to criticise Islam.
Clearly Derek does not believe in equality of life. Americans are far more valuable than any other nation. Assange is a US traitor even though he is not a US citizen....right Derek?
Derek comes across as a right wing extremist, and is as dangerous to society as any other extremist out there inciting violence and hatred. He is what damages the reputation and hard work so many americans put in to changing the world for the better.
Derek1148
23rd February 2011 - 08:12 AM
What are you two? The Odd Couple?
Fallujah,
Didn't we back your country up when they wanted the Falkland Islands back? What are you complaining about?
fredinjeddah
23rd February 2011 - 08:21 AM
QUOTE (Derek1148+Feb 23 2011, 07:38 AM)
First of all, I wasn't talking to you. And second, I don't care about the opinions of fools and sycophants. And you're both.
Stop posting on a public message board then. If you want to put yourself out there, deal with the consequences sissy boy!
And the irony of calling me a sychophant.
wikipedia definition of sycophancyQUOTE
The Greek for sycophant is συκοφάντης (sykophántēs). It suggests someone who brings all kinds of charges and proves none, according to a client of Demosthenes.[2] A client of Lysias adds the perspective of blackmail: "It is their practice to bring charges even against those who have done no wrong. For from these they would gain most profit." [3] In this context, the word entails false accusation, malicious prosecution, and abuse of legal process for mischievous or fraudulent purposes.
This from the sycophant who wants to carpet bomb egyptians because of an allegation of sexual assault that has not been proven yet. You are as transparent as glass. I know what you are and I am sure that most people on this forum know what you are.
fredinjeddah
23rd February 2011 - 08:24 AM
QUOTE (Derek1148+Feb 23 2011, 08:12 AM)
What are you two? The Odd Couple?
Realistic, logical and thenk goodness, 1 more than you!!!!
Derek1148
23rd February 2011 - 08:26 AM
QUOTE (fredinjeddah+Feb 23 2011, 08:21 AM)
fredinjeddah
23rd February 2011 - 08:42 AM
QUOTE (NymphaeaAlba+Feb 23 2011, 05:03 AM)
That's simply not true. The psychopaths will be easier to spot without their megalomaniac god to hide behind.
Sadly, I think the psychopaths will always find some way to hide their true intentions, that is the nature of a psychopath.
Some use religeon, others use democracy. I think if religeon dissapeared something less obvious and more difficult to spot, would take its place.
We have to remember not to look at the fancy logo on the label, but to study the contents of the bottle.
fredinjeddah
23rd February 2011 - 08:44 AM
QUOTE (Derek1148+Feb 23 2011, 08:26 AM)
You had to look it up?
Oh I knew what it means, I posted the wiki for you!
orestis
23rd February 2011 - 09:00 AM
Beck disciple,
You see what's going on in Wisconsin? Repubes are trying to bust the teachers union.
You are on your clerk job now, getting paid, and wandering the internet.
Are you afraid they might come after you next?
You will have to live on baksheesh if they do.
Capracus
23rd February 2011 - 10:01 AM
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 23 2011, 05:14 AM)
QUOTE (NymphaeaAlba+Feb 23 2011, 12:03 AM)
That's simply not true. The psychopaths will be easier to spot without their megalomaniac god to hide behind.
What's true is you can't remove religion from the culture, so it's a moot point.
Indeed, even in Iraq, when they recently wrote their own Constitution, they created an Islamic state, so their law and their religion are intertwined.
Illogic, brutality and oppression don't need the cover of religion to be practiced. Arthur's example of Iraq is a great example. You had a brutal secular leader in the person of Saddam Hussein, overthrown by a misguided secular government led by George Bush, resulting in an Islamic based government of unknown potential. Anyone else's head spinning?
boit
23rd February 2011 - 10:50 AM
If I start off as a very immoral person, can the magnetic helmet make me o more moral person? Is this not just some indian type bamboozoo?
vkamath
23rd February 2011 - 12:28 PM
QUOTE (NymphaeaAlba+Feb 23 2011, 02:49 AM)
Maybe Derek can catch up to him, if he hurries, we’ll see…
That would make for a boring episode of COPS if flyingbuttressman is a white dude typing away on his laptop at starbucks.
flyingbuttressman
23rd February 2011 - 12:47 PM
QUOTE (vkamath+Feb 23 2011, 07:28 AM)
That would make for a boring episode of COPS if flyingbuttressman is a white dude typing away on his laptop at starbucks.
I'll never be caught typing in a Starbucks. Though, I did work there once.
flyingbuttressman
23rd February 2011 - 02:14 PM
QUOTE (Derek1148+Feb 22 2011, 11:49 PM)
You're wasting your time here. They don't want to hear the truth.
What is "the truth" in this case? Is it that the Muslims of Egypt are secretly planning to set up a pro-terrorist Islamic Republic? Is it that Egypt is going to be the next Somalia? This has nothing to do with the Lara Logan case. What do you have against democracy in Northern Africa?
Here's my POV:
If the citizens of a state are willing to put themselves in harm's way in order to overthrow an autocratic regime and establish Democracy, then they have that right. Then, if they want to set up an Islamic state, then they have that right, as long as that government is ELECTED and doesn't enforce a single-party state. If they decide that they don't like the United States and tell the United States to go to hell, they have that right. Liking the United States is not a prerequisite for statehood.
Above all, however, the United States should not get involved in Egyptian politics. Aid is fine, as long as Egypt's new constitution provides adequate guarantees of human rights.
This is not 1978 and Egypt is not Iran.
boit
23rd February 2011 - 04:55 PM
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Feb 23 2011, 05:14 PM)
What is "the truth" in this case? Is it that the Muslims of Egypt are secretly planning to set up a pro-terrorist Islamic Republic? Is it that Egypt is going to be the next Somalia? This has nothing to do with the Lara Logan case. What do you have against democracy in Northern Africa?
Here's my POV:
If the citizens of a state are willing to put themselves in harm's way in order to overthrow an autocratic regime and establish Democracy, then they have that right. Then, if they want to set up an Islamic state, then they have that right, as long as that government is ELECTED and doesn't enforce a single-party state. If they decide that they don't like the United States and tell the United States to go to hell, they have that right. Liking the United States is not a prerequisite for statehood.
Above all, however, the United States should not get involved in Egyptian politics. Aid is fine, as long as Egypt's new constitution provides adequate guarantees of human rights.
This is not 1978 and Egypt is not Iran.
Very good point flyingbuttressman. The U.S is the beacon of the free world because of people like you. Am not saying the U.S.A is Utopia therefore stumbling on an occasional xenophobic dude is not unexpected.
Derek1148
23rd February 2011 - 06:04 PM
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Feb 23 2011, 02:14 PM)
Aid is fine, as long as Egypt's new constitution provides adequate guarantees of human rights.
And suppose it doesn't? What would you do? Suppose they started executing young girls for being raped (you do know it can happen if there aren't witnesses to the rape)? What would you do? Order another mocha latte? You're a clown.
flyingbuttressman
23rd February 2011 - 06:41 PM
QUOTE (Derek1148+Feb 23 2011, 01:04 PM)
And suppose it doesn't? What would you do?
Then the United States should cut off aid. What else can we do? Invade?
flyingbuttressman
23rd February 2011 - 06:57 PM
I think the bigger question here is:
Should the United States act as a world police force by removing (what we see as) immoral regimes from power?
Luckily, we have two examples:
Afghanistan:
Over the past 10 years, despite the occupying US Army, there has been little decline in the number of human rights abuses. Additionally, ~38,000 "insurgents" have been killed or captured and somewhere between 14,000 and 34,000 civilians have been killed in the conflict.
Has any good actually come out of this war?
Iraq:
After 8 years of war, there have been over 100,000 civilian deaths. Civil rights abuses continue under the new Iraqi police force.
Both countries have instituted Islam as the state religion in their constitutions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_warhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghan...2%80%93present)Based on this evidence, I would argue that invasion is not an adequate method of ensuring that human rights are observed in foreign nations.
On the other hand, we have 2 (possibly more soon) nations that have thrown off autocratic rule, and have significant factions that would prefer secular government over an Islamic government.
Which set of countries do you think will be better off in 10 years?
fredinjeddah
23rd February 2011 - 08:50 PM
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Feb 23 2011, 06:57 PM)
Luckily, we have two examples:
NymphaeaAlba
24th February 2011 - 01:59 AM
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Feb 23 2011, 10:57 AM)
I think the bigger question here is:
Should the United States act as a world police force by removing (what we see as) immoral regimes from power?
Politics isn’t my thing but atheism is. The United States does have the impression that it is our moral duty to end tyranny and defeat evil in the world.
“Eleanor Roosevelt once said that wishful thinking was America’s `besetting sin.’ Hmm…
Manifest Destiny? American exceptionalism?
The belief in an American mission to promote and defend democracy throughout the world, as expounded by Abraham Lincoln and Woodrow Wilson, continues to have an influence on American political ideology.
“As Ronald Reagan emphasized, America is a shining city upon a hill whose beacon light guides freedom-loving people everywhere."
"The destiny of the American People is to subdue the continent, to unite the world in one social family... Divine task! Immortal mission! America leads the host of nations as they ascend to this order of civilization. ...the industrial conquest of the world." -William Gilpin
"Wherever you go, you carry a message of hope - a message that is ancient and ever new. In the words of the prophet Isaiah, 'To the captives, "come out," and to those in darkness, "be free." -George W. Bush
City Upon a HillQUOTE
The position of the Americans is therefore quite exceptional, and it may be believed that no democratic people will ever be placed in a similar one. Their strictly Puritanical origin, their exclusively commercial habits, even the country they inhabit, which seems to divert their minds from the pursuit of science, literature, and the arts, the proximity of Europe, which allows them to neglect these pursuits without relapsing into barbarism, a thousand special causes, of which I have only been able to point out the most important, have singularly concurred to fix the mind of the American upon purely practical objects. His passions, his wants, his education, and everything about him seem to unite in drawing the native of the United States earthward; his religion alone bids him turn, from time to time, a transient and distracted glance to heaven. Let us cease, then, to view all democratic nations under the example of the American people.
Democracy in AmericaThen of course, we have Glenn Beck: America’s Divine Destiny
flyingbuttressman
24th February 2011 - 02:47 AM
QUOTE (NymphaeaAlba+Feb 23 2011, 08:59 PM)
Politics isn’t my thing but atheism is. The United States does have the impression that it is our moral duty to end tyranny and defeat evil in the world.
The belief in an American mission to promote and defend democracy throughout the world, as expounded by Abraham Lincoln and Woodrow Wilson, continues to have an influence on American political ideology.
What cost are we willing to pay to defeat evil? Was the price paid in human lives in Afghanistan and Iraq worth the result?
My theory is that Democracy will never take root unless the people fight for it. Having it delivered on a silver platter doesn't have the same effect.
Derek1148
24th February 2011 - 03:09 AM
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Feb 23 2011, 06:57 PM)
Based on this evidence, I would argue that invasion is not an adequate method of ensuring that human rights are observed in foreign nations.
How many foreign wars have been fought over human rights?
flyingbuttressman
24th February 2011 - 03:15 AM
QUOTE (Derek1148+Feb 23 2011, 10:09 PM)
How many foreign wars have been fought over human rights?
"Operation Iraqi Freedom"
Your opinions on the real reasons for that war may vary.
Derek1148
24th February 2011 - 04:57 AM
Revolutions and civil wars may be motivated by human rights issues. Foreign wars (and foreign military operations) generally are not.
orestis
24th February 2011 - 07:23 AM
QUOTE (Derek1148+Feb 24 2011, 12:57 AM)
Revolutions and civil wars may be motivated by human rights issues. Foreign wars (and foreign military operations) generally are not.
So you are confirming that lying, safe, draft-dodging, rear echelon sonsofbitches started the war.
Derek1148
24th February 2011 - 08:07 AM
Which war?
orestis
24th February 2011 - 08:54 AM
QUOTE (Derek1148+Feb 24 2011, 04:07 AM)
Which war?
For a second that was funny.
But you know which one we are talking about. The latest one, where the morality switch was off, where nothing had been done to us, where profit was the motive, the one that the little bitches who started it are now writing books about.
boit
24th February 2011 - 11:11 AM
QUOTE (Derek1148+Feb 23 2011, 06:45 AM)
Well, I was thinking of carpet bombing.
After you're done carpet bombing Egypt and Arizona to stone age, don't forget to also bomb the Republic of South Africa. The last I checked the country was leading the world in sexual violence. Or is it less nauseating to you if no foreigner is involved?
flyingbuttressman
24th February 2011 - 02:01 PM
QUOTE (Derek1148+Feb 23 2011, 11:57 PM)
Revolutions and civil wars may be motivated by human rights issues. Foreign wars (and foreign military operations) generally are not.
What was Kosovo motivated by? Somalia?
Derek1148
24th February 2011 - 04:41 PM
QUOTE (flyingbuttressman+Feb 24 2011, 02:01 PM)
Somalia?
The Mogadishu operation certainly was an example of goodwill. And there were some heroes who sacrificed their lives there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mogadishu_(1993)
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