QUOTE (lozenge124+Jan 18 2008, 10:24 PM)
The thermal scale indicates temperatures < ~100°C if it is accurate.
See NIST NCSTAR 1-5A Fig 9-16 pg 313 for what this corner looked like at this time.
Arthur
See NIST NCSTAR 1-5A Fig 9-16 pg 313 for what this corner looked like at this time.
Arthur
QUOTE (adoucette+Jan 19 2008, 03:22 PM)
Have you read NIST NCSTAR 1-5A????????
You seem to be all about the photography and that Sub-Report is ALL ABOUT the VISUAL evidence and TIMELINE.
Nope. That's why I have no business speculating too much, nor do I really care to. While I have spent (too?) much time viewing videos in the last few months, the scope has been pretty limited. There's been no pressing need to reference details of the narrative to do image work, so I'm relieved of that burden so long as I refrain from speculation. So I'm done!
On the other hand, I have the entire collection and I think it's a pretty good bargain at cost per taxpayer, as a reference work. So, thanks for the pointer; I'm interested enough to read that section when time permits.
Sure enough. I didn't know that. All I'd heard before was forward looking infrared. Which came first? Pretty clever, either way. It's as if facial tissues were called Kleenex first. Or is it like facial tissue called Charmin? At the very least, it's confusing at first glance.
Sure enough. I didn't know that. All I'd heard before was forward looking infrared. Which came first? Pretty clever, either way. It's as if facial tissues were called Kleenex first. Or is it like facial tissue called Charmin? At the very least, it's confusing at first glance.
The pictures are in general over-saturated in the IR region (as one would expect, these are far hotter objects than one would typically use an IR camera to film)
The data is thus not very quantitative, you can tell that these red areas (or white in the false positives) are hot, but not how hot they are relative to the other areas.
Well, that makes perfect sense. I'm a little sheepish for not realizing that. It's not like this person is going to be walking around Manhattan with a IR camera camera designed for temps outside of a natural environmental range. I don't even know what they use these for, spying on grow rooms?
I will at some point. It's an interesting oddity; just jumped out at me, so to speak.
again substantial disconfirmation of the poorer hypothesis.
"i remember an explosion....
at that point i got knocked out, ...i don't remember anything
then i got up, ...and i remember walking out, and there was total darkness in the corridors, and i was at the edge, i was in a dentist's office, because there was dentist chairs and tools, and i looked out the window, 'cause the windows exploded, and the street below caved in, the whole street caved in, you could see below the street, and at that point there was fireballs coming up, i said, 'alright, i'm not gonna make it, i really didn't think i wasn't going to make it."
that's not very, 'chopped', dudes.
doesn't matter so much exactly 'when', because, the point is, THE STREET CAVED IN, and FIREBALLS SHOT UP OUT OF THE EARTH. you pick a time where that fits the official whitewash, arthii.
"quote mining" to OCTs equals "no eyewitness testimony is relevant".
doesn't matter how many HUNDREDS OF people say "boom, boom, boom, boom", or "secondary explosion that brought the tower down", or how many recordings of explosions you hear.... it's just "quote mining" to you evilhelldevils.
in other noose, the bush crime cabal tries to push through legislation making them immune from persecution for war crimes(which of course, is not frivolous or circuitous, and is my elephant is on the rampage, arta good use of taxpayers time and money). i wonder if hitler tried that?
my elephant is becoming a herd, arthurs.
Well the PROBLEM, newton, is in the pictures taken immediately afterward, there are NO STREETS that are CAVED IN.
My GUESS, is he is talking about the PLAZA, which DID cave in.
As to your Herd, hardly.
I've YET to actually meet a Twoofer IN REAL LIFE.
I've heard they exist, though.
Arthur
and it seems that is all we can get. C447 alone does not disconfirm more than dB=4.6. So be it.
You seem to be all about the photography and that Sub-Report is ALL ABOUT the VISUAL evidence and TIMELINE.
Nope. That's why I have no business speculating too much, nor do I really care to. While I have spent (too?) much time viewing videos in the last few months, the scope has been pretty limited. There's been no pressing need to reference details of the narrative to do image work, so I'm relieved of that burden so long as I refrain from speculation. So I'm done!
On the other hand, I have the entire collection and I think it's a pretty good bargain at cost per taxpayer, as a reference work. So, thanks for the pointer; I'm interested enough to read that section when time permits.
QUOTE
FLIR is the company name.
Sure enough. I didn't know that. All I'd heard before was forward looking infrared. Which came first? Pretty clever, either way. It's as if facial tissues were called Kleenex first. Or is it like facial tissue called Charmin? At the very least, it's confusing at first glance.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| FLIR is the company name. |
Sure enough. I didn't know that. All I'd heard before was forward looking infrared. Which came first? Pretty clever, either way. It's as if facial tissues were called Kleenex first. Or is it like facial tissue called Charmin? At the very least, it's confusing at first glance.
The pictures are in general over-saturated in the IR region (as one would expect, these are far hotter objects than one would typically use an IR camera to film)
The data is thus not very quantitative, you can tell that these red areas (or white in the false positives) are hot, but not how hot they are relative to the other areas.
Well, that makes perfect sense. I'm a little sheepish for not realizing that. It's not like this person is going to be walking around Manhattan with a IR camera camera designed for temps outside of a natural environmental range. I don't even know what they use these for, spying on grow rooms?
QUOTE
From their angle they give little info about the interior, but there is some that is interesting, particularly if you read NIST's evaluation of these pictures.
I will at some point. It's an interesting oddity; just jumped out at me, so to speak.
QUOTE (adoucette+Jan 19 2008, 03:22 PM)
Have you read NIST NCSTAR 1-5A????????
Actually, I started reading it after your post and, except for some necessary interruptions, I've been sucked in. No question that there's so much information. It's good to know the nomenclature and identification conventions as well.
Actually, I started reading it after your post and, except for some necessary interruptions, I've been sucked in. No question that there's so much information. It's good to know the nomenclature and identification conventions as well.
I made a small change in the program for speed. In addition, somehow it now actually finds better parameter values. Here is a comparison using C449 data:
CODE
Sef-K+Z+ZSS-F-exp-pow-stretch dB= 0.0 sd= 0.073
Sef-const-F-const-stretch dB= 9.1 sd= 0.346
Sef-const-F-const-stretch dB= 9.1 sd= 0.346
QUOTE (OneWhiteEye+Jan 19 2008, 05:35 PM)
Actually, I started reading it after your post and, except for some necessary interruptions, I've been sucked in. No question that there's so much information. It's good to know the nomenclature and identification conventions as well.
I know.
I've spent many hours reading the detail reports. They are facinating.
When you get to chap 9 of the one you are reading it will discuss their ideas about the molten material from that corner of WTC 2.
Arthur
I know.
I've spent many hours reading the detail reports. They are facinating.
When you get to chap 9 of the one you are reading it will discuss their ideas about the molten material from that corner of WTC 2.
Arthur
C447 data:
CODE
Sef-K+Z+ZSS-F-exp-pow-stretch dB= 0.0 sd= 0.108
Sef-const-F-const-stretch dB= 6.4 sd= 0.313
Sef-const-F-const-stretch dB= 6.4 sd= 0.313
again substantial disconfirmation of the poorer hypothesis.
Ever so slighly better code. C447 data again:
CODE
Sef-K+Z+ZSS-F-exp-pow-stretch dB= 0.0 sd= 0.094
Sef-const-F-const-stretch dB= 8.0 sd= 0.303
Sef-const-F-const-stretch dB= 8.0 sd= 0.303
fireballs, explosions....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFyy4Yj-XF4&e
"i remember an explosion....
at that point i got knocked out, ...i don't remember anything
then i got up, ...and i remember walking out, and there was total darkness in the corridors, and i was at the edge, i was in a dentist's office, because there was dentist chairs and tools, and i looked out the window, 'cause the windows exploded, and the street below caved in, the whole street caved in, you could see below the street, and at that point there was fireballs coming up, i said, 'alright, i'm not gonna make it, i really didn't think i wasn't going to make it."
several people describe fireballs shooting out of the base of the building.
i have to say, that's the first eyewitness i've ever heard say the street caved, and then fireballs shot up from street level.
did the NIST report cover that FACT? do they explain why bowing columns at the top of the building cause the street to cave in? do they mention street level fireballs knocking people unconscious for 6 days, or rolling fireballs chasing people down the street? do they explain the source of this explosive energy?
i guess not, when they don't even admit there were fireballs at street level during the collapse.
keep it up, arthurs. it looks good on you. 10, 000 pages isn't enough to cover this elephant in the room.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFyy4Yj-XF4&e
"i remember an explosion....
at that point i got knocked out, ...i don't remember anything
then i got up, ...and i remember walking out, and there was total darkness in the corridors, and i was at the edge, i was in a dentist's office, because there was dentist chairs and tools, and i looked out the window, 'cause the windows exploded, and the street below caved in, the whole street caved in, you could see below the street, and at that point there was fireballs coming up, i said, 'alright, i'm not gonna make it, i really didn't think i wasn't going to make it."
several people describe fireballs shooting out of the base of the building.
i have to say, that's the first eyewitness i've ever heard say the street caved, and then fireballs shot up from street level.
did the NIST report cover that FACT? do they explain why bowing columns at the top of the building cause the street to cave in? do they mention street level fireballs knocking people unconscious for 6 days, or rolling fireballs chasing people down the street? do they explain the source of this explosive energy?
i guess not, when they don't even admit there were fireballs at street level during the collapse.
keep it up, arthurs. it looks good on you. 10, 000 pages isn't enough to cover this elephant in the room.
Quote Mining 101.
Stop just before it gets cleared up what was actually seen.
Which is why all these quotes so obviously get CHOPPED.
You don't know WHEN or WHERE this person was.
Your elephant is a mirage.
Arthur
Stop just before it gets cleared up what was actually seen.
Which is why all these quotes so obviously get CHOPPED.
You don't know WHEN or WHERE this person was.
Your elephant is a mirage.
Arthur
Hmmm. Better starting parameters give strong disconfirmation to the poorer hypothesis using C449 data:
CODE
Sef-K+Z+ZSS-F-exp-pow-stretch dB= 0.0 sd= 0.067
Sef-const-F-const-stretch dB=11.1 sd= 0.308
Sef-const-F-const-stretch dB=11.1 sd= 0.308
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Jan 21 2008, 07:47 PM)
Hmmm. Better starting parameters give strong disconfirmation to the poorer hypothesis using C449 data:
What do you do to break out of local minima and what is the criteria for giving up on evaluating a tentative solution?
What do you do to break out of local minima and what is the criteria for giving up on evaluating a tentative solution?
This video, that we've all seen, discussed, and some have even analyzed, indicates that the north tower, and the local terrain, apparently shook before collapse. Other accounts, also, suggest the site of the south tower did likewise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1olo5_7mKE
One way to initiate the collapse would be via applied mechanical resonance.
Although the principle is exactly the same, I'm not talking about the pocket oscillator device associated with Tesla's urban mayhem. No, I'm talking about modern industrial strength "shakers", suitable for stress testing bridges, etc., bolted up to columns at critical position(s) along the vertical height
Example of an industrial shaker
http://www.labworks-inc.com/products/systems/127_500.htm
Wouldn't this speculation suggest a possible explanation for the tower's vibration, and the seismic activity affecting the secured camera (in sympathy) on the video?
The auto scan mode (of what ever device was used) would sweep through the infrasonic spectrum, hunting for the critical resonant frequency. Was the shaking on the video a hit and lock?
The duration (of the vibration) was short. This could imply that instantaneous structural destruction and damage had occurred, sufficient to alter the building's resonant frequency such that it no longer coincided with the shaker's assigned frequency.
Subjecting the building to this condition, at high amplitude, would certainly devastate the lateral integrity of its' vertical components, in general, and complete the destruction, already started by the planes in the impact zone, in particular.
Can you say initiation AND compromised core integrity in one breath?
Arrange to have some fiery aerial impacts, and then shake the smoking sites of carnage to the ground.
Occam's razor?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1olo5_7mKE
One way to initiate the collapse would be via applied mechanical resonance.
Although the principle is exactly the same, I'm not talking about the pocket oscillator device associated with Tesla's urban mayhem. No, I'm talking about modern industrial strength "shakers", suitable for stress testing bridges, etc., bolted up to columns at critical position(s) along the vertical height
Example of an industrial shaker
http://www.labworks-inc.com/products/systems/127_500.htm
Wouldn't this speculation suggest a possible explanation for the tower's vibration, and the seismic activity affecting the secured camera (in sympathy) on the video?
The auto scan mode (of what ever device was used) would sweep through the infrasonic spectrum, hunting for the critical resonant frequency. Was the shaking on the video a hit and lock?
The duration (of the vibration) was short. This could imply that instantaneous structural destruction and damage had occurred, sufficient to alter the building's resonant frequency such that it no longer coincided with the shaker's assigned frequency.
Subjecting the building to this condition, at high amplitude, would certainly devastate the lateral integrity of its' vertical components, in general, and complete the destruction, already started by the planes in the impact zone, in particular.
Can you say initiation AND compromised core integrity in one breath?
Arrange to have some fiery aerial impacts, and then shake the smoking sites of carnage to the ground.
Occam's razor?
QUOTE (zoktoberfest+Jan 21 2008, 08:38 PM)
This video, that we've all seen, discussed, and some have even analyzed, indicates that the north tower, and the local terrain, apparently shook before collapse. Other accounts, also, suggest the site of the south tower did likewise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1olo5_7mKE
One way to initiate the collapse would be via applied mechanical resonance.
An interesting and novel thought, for sure.
This is the video I've been looking at a lot. The camera movement before the collapse is of considerably greater amplitude (initially) than that which occurs during the latter half of collapse. Assume the camera vibration at the end is caused by vibrational energy from the collapse transmitted through the ground. If the vibration prior to collapse is also due to energy applied at the location of the tower and mediated through the ground, it would have to be much greater in magnitude.
The collapse registered on seismic instrumentation. Therefore, anything of greater magnitude just prior to collapse would as well. Moreover, people would undoubtedly have felt the vibration. Even if sub-sonic, buildings and such would couple with the energy, driving resonance at multiple frequencies, some of which would be audible.
I think the operator bumped the camera slightly, or the tripod is on a roof where a huge air conditioner kicked on.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1olo5_7mKE
One way to initiate the collapse would be via applied mechanical resonance.
An interesting and novel thought, for sure.
This is the video I've been looking at a lot. The camera movement before the collapse is of considerably greater amplitude (initially) than that which occurs during the latter half of collapse. Assume the camera vibration at the end is caused by vibrational energy from the collapse transmitted through the ground. If the vibration prior to collapse is also due to energy applied at the location of the tower and mediated through the ground, it would have to be much greater in magnitude.
The collapse registered on seismic instrumentation. Therefore, anything of greater magnitude just prior to collapse would as well. Moreover, people would undoubtedly have felt the vibration. Even if sub-sonic, buildings and such would couple with the energy, driving resonance at multiple frequencies, some of which would be audible.
I think the operator bumped the camera slightly, or the tripod is on a roof where a huge air conditioner kicked on.
QUOTE (OneWhiteEye+Jan 21 2008, 12:52 PM)
What do you do to break out of local minima
and what is the criteria for giving up on evaluating a tentative solution?
Just provide starting values of parameters. There is a set of these, at least n+1 required for n parameters, but more can be used.
Program is too stupid to do that. More precisely, given K trial parameter values, it has various techniques for manipulating these relative to the best-so-far. Nonetheless, for n > 1 parameters, there is no guarantee of finding a global minimum, just a local one.
and what is the criteria for giving up on evaluating a tentative solution?
Just provide starting values of parameters. There is a set of these, at least n+1 required for n parameters, but more can be used.
Program is too stupid to do that. More precisely, given K trial parameter values, it has various techniques for manipulating these relative to the best-so-far. Nonetheless, for n > 1 parameters, there is no guarantee of finding a global minimum, just a local one.
However, to play fair by the poorer hypothesis, I changed it so that deltaT is a parameter. Now it is essentially as good.
Have one other small program defect to clean up. Then it will be time for some definitive runs.
Have one other small program defect to clean up. Then it will be time for some definitive runs.
Once upon a time, a few generations back in the genealogy of this thread, Gordon Brown posted his evolving conceptions, which eventually led to his paper. My understanding of his formal analysis was that the lower section of the building had sufficient capacity to resist collapse, unless an external mechanism was present.
The point of my most recent post concerns the extension of the list of available external mechanisms.
Whether or not, "the operator bumped the camera slightly, or the tripod is on a roof where a huge air conditioner kicked on", in the video I sited, is independent of the hitherto unconsidered devastating potential of applied mechanical resonance to a tall steel building.
I'm just suggesting that those, not of the Nistian persuasion, review the available evidence from the perspective of, what if they did set the building into mechanical resonance at this moment or that. Would it make sense, to the account or the event, such as, the janitor Rodriguez claiming that heavy equipment was displaced, and the inexplicable devastation in the lobby.
If it was used, I have no idea how, when or where it was applied. Utilizing such a destructive force for demolition purposes is not, to my understanding, an established science. There is no basis for assuming that "they" knew exactly how to unleash Tesla's monster, a century later, and not more than a few blocks south of his lab, and site of his infamous lab experiment.
The point of my most recent post concerns the extension of the list of available external mechanisms.
Whether or not, "the operator bumped the camera slightly, or the tripod is on a roof where a huge air conditioner kicked on", in the video I sited, is independent of the hitherto unconsidered devastating potential of applied mechanical resonance to a tall steel building.
I'm just suggesting that those, not of the Nistian persuasion, review the available evidence from the perspective of, what if they did set the building into mechanical resonance at this moment or that. Would it make sense, to the account or the event, such as, the janitor Rodriguez claiming that heavy equipment was displaced, and the inexplicable devastation in the lobby.
If it was used, I have no idea how, when or where it was applied. Utilizing such a destructive force for demolition purposes is not, to my understanding, an established science. There is no basis for assuming that "they" knew exactly how to unleash Tesla's monster, a century later, and not more than a few blocks south of his lab, and site of his infamous lab experiment.
QUOTE (adoucette+Jan 21 2008, 05:52 PM)
Quote Mining 101.
Stop just before it gets cleared up what was actually seen.
Which is why all these quotes so obviously get CHOPPED.
You don't know WHEN or WHERE this person was.
Your elephant is a mirage.
Arthur
"i remember an explosion....
at that point i got knocked out, ...i don't remember anything
then i got up, ...and i remember walking out, and there was total darkness in the corridors, and i was at the edge, i was in a dentist's office, because there was dentist chairs and tools, and i looked out the window, 'cause the windows exploded, and the street below caved in, the whole street caved in, you could see below the street, and at that point there was fireballs coming up, i said, 'alright, i'm not gonna make it, i really didn't think i wasn't going to make it."
that's not very, 'chopped', dudes.
doesn't matter so much exactly 'when', because, the point is, THE STREET CAVED IN, and FIREBALLS SHOT UP OUT OF THE EARTH. you pick a time where that fits the official whitewash, arthii.
"quote mining" to OCTs equals "no eyewitness testimony is relevant".
doesn't matter how many HUNDREDS OF people say "boom, boom, boom, boom", or "secondary explosion that brought the tower down", or how many recordings of explosions you hear.... it's just "quote mining" to you evilhelldevils.
in other noose, the bush crime cabal tries to push through legislation making them immune from persecution for war crimes(which of course, is not frivolous or circuitous, and is my elephant is on the rampage, arta good use of taxpayers time and money). i wonder if hitler tried that?
my elephant is becoming a herd, arthurs.
Stop just before it gets cleared up what was actually seen.
Which is why all these quotes so obviously get CHOPPED.
You don't know WHEN or WHERE this person was.
Your elephant is a mirage.
Arthur
"i remember an explosion....
at that point i got knocked out, ...i don't remember anything
then i got up, ...and i remember walking out, and there was total darkness in the corridors, and i was at the edge, i was in a dentist's office, because there was dentist chairs and tools, and i looked out the window, 'cause the windows exploded, and the street below caved in, the whole street caved in, you could see below the street, and at that point there was fireballs coming up, i said, 'alright, i'm not gonna make it, i really didn't think i wasn't going to make it."
that's not very, 'chopped', dudes.
doesn't matter so much exactly 'when', because, the point is, THE STREET CAVED IN, and FIREBALLS SHOT UP OUT OF THE EARTH. you pick a time where that fits the official whitewash, arthii.
"quote mining" to OCTs equals "no eyewitness testimony is relevant".
doesn't matter how many HUNDREDS OF people say "boom, boom, boom, boom", or "secondary explosion that brought the tower down", or how many recordings of explosions you hear.... it's just "quote mining" to you evilhelldevils.
in other noose, the bush crime cabal tries to push through legislation making them immune from persecution for war crimes(which of course, is not frivolous or circuitous, and is my elephant is on the rampage, arta good use of taxpayers time and money). i wonder if hitler tried that?
my elephant is becoming a herd, arthurs.
QUOTE (zoktoberfest+Jan 21 2008, 11:43 PM)
Once upon a time, a few generations back in the genealogy of this thread, Gordon Brown posted his evolving conceptions, which eventually led to his paper. My understanding of his formal analysis was that the lower section of the building had sufficient capacity to resist collapse, unless an external mechanism was present.
The point of my most recent post concerns the extension of the list of available external mechanisms.
Whether or not, "the operator bumped the camera slightly, or the tripod is on a roof where a huge air conditioner kicked on", in the video I sited, is independent of the hitherto unconsidered devastating potential of applied mechanical resonance to a tall steel building.
I'm just suggesting that those, not of the Nistian persuasion, review the available evidence from the perspective of, what if they did set the building into mechanical resonance at this moment or that. Would it make sense, to the account or the event, such as, the janitor Rodriguez claiming that heavy equipment was displaced, and the inexplicable devastation in the lobby.
If it was used, I have no idea how, when or where it was applied. Utilizing such a destructive force for demolition purposes is not, to my understanding, an established science. There is no basis for assuming that "they" knew exactly how to unleash Tesla's monster, a century later, and not more than a few blocks south of his lab, and site of his infamous lab experiment.
If you saw the northern lights over New York City in broad daylight, then you might be right!
Did you see the Northern lights over New York on 9/11/2001?
Energy transmitted thought the atmosphere has an effect on the atmosphere and on the magnetic field of the earth, that can be observed.
Any energy that does not have a noticeable effect would have killed everyone on site at those power levels.
Do you have any more Questions?
The point of my most recent post concerns the extension of the list of available external mechanisms.
Whether or not, "the operator bumped the camera slightly, or the tripod is on a roof where a huge air conditioner kicked on", in the video I sited, is independent of the hitherto unconsidered devastating potential of applied mechanical resonance to a tall steel building.
I'm just suggesting that those, not of the Nistian persuasion, review the available evidence from the perspective of, what if they did set the building into mechanical resonance at this moment or that. Would it make sense, to the account or the event, such as, the janitor Rodriguez claiming that heavy equipment was displaced, and the inexplicable devastation in the lobby.
If it was used, I have no idea how, when or where it was applied. Utilizing such a destructive force for demolition purposes is not, to my understanding, an established science. There is no basis for assuming that "they" knew exactly how to unleash Tesla's monster, a century later, and not more than a few blocks south of his lab, and site of his infamous lab experiment.
If you saw the northern lights over New York City in broad daylight, then you might be right!
Did you see the Northern lights over New York on 9/11/2001?
Energy transmitted thought the atmosphere has an effect on the atmosphere and on the magnetic field of the earth, that can be observed.
Any energy that does not have a noticeable effect would have killed everyone on site at those power levels.
Do you have any more Questions?
QUOTE (zoktoberfest+Jan 21 2008, 04:43 PM)
Gordon Brown
... the inexplicable devastation in the lobby.
Gordon Ross, not the politician.
Anyway, he's been thoroughly debunked.
Caused by the fireballs coming down the voids in the core.
==================================================
Removing the towers' resonances was done by the dampers.
... the inexplicable devastation in the lobby.
Gordon Ross, not the politician.
Anyway, he's been thoroughly debunked.Caused by the fireballs coming down the voids in the core.
==================================================
Removing the towers' resonances was done by the dampers.
QUOTE (newton+Jan 21 2008, 06:45 PM)
"i remember an explosion....
at that point i got knocked out, ...i don't remember anything
then i got up, ...and i remember walking out, and there was total darkness in the corridors, and i was at the edge, i was in a dentist's office, because there was dentist chairs and tools, and i looked out the window, 'cause the windows exploded, and the street below caved in, the whole street caved in, you could see below the street, and at that point there was fireballs coming up, i said, 'alright, i'm not gonna make it, i really didn't think i wasn't going to make it."
that's not very, 'chopped', dudes.
doesn't matter so much exactly 'when', because, the point is, THE STREET CAVED IN, and FIREBALLS SHOT UP OUT OF THE EARTH. you pick a time where that fits the official whitewash, arthii.
"quote mining" to OCTs equals "no eyewitness testimony is relevant".
doesn't matter how many HUNDREDS OF people say "boom, boom, boom, boom", or "secondary explosion that brought the tower down", or how many recordings of explosions you hear.... it's just "quote mining" to you evilhelldevils.
in other noose, the bush crime cabal tries to push through legislation making them immune from persecution for war crimes(which of course, is not frivolous or circuitous, and is my elephant is on the rampage, arta good use of taxpayers time and money). i wonder if hitler tried that?
my elephant is becoming a herd, arthurs.
Well the PROBLEM, newton, is in the pictures taken immediately afterward, there are NO STREETS that are CAVED IN.
My GUESS, is he is talking about the PLAZA, which DID cave in.
As to your Herd, hardly.
I've YET to actually meet a Twoofer IN REAL LIFE.
I've heard they exist, though.
Arthur
QUOTE (zoktoberfest+Jan 21 2008, 03:38 PM)
This video, that we've all seen, discussed, and some have even analyzed, indicates that the north tower, and the local terrain, apparently shook before collapse. Other accounts, also, suggest the site of the south tower did likewise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1olo5_7mKE
One way to initiate the collapse would be via applied mechanical resonance.
Although the principle is exactly the same, I'm not talking about the pocket oscillator device associated with Tesla's urban mayhem. No, I'm talking about modern industrial strength "shakers", suitable for stress testing bridges, etc., bolted up to columns at critical position(s) along the vertical height
Example of an industrial shaker
http://www.labworks-inc.com/products/systems/127_500.htm
Wouldn't this speculation suggest a possible explanation for the tower's vibration, and the seismic activity affecting the secured camera (in sympathy) on the video?
The auto scan mode (of what ever device was used) would sweep through the infrasonic spectrum, hunting for the critical resonant frequency. Was the shaking on the video a hit and lock?
The duration (of the vibration) was short. This could imply that instantaneous structural destruction and damage had occurred, sufficient to alter the building's resonant frequency such that it no longer coincided with the shaker's assigned frequency.
Subjecting the building to this condition, at high amplitude, would certainly devastate the lateral integrity of its' vertical components, in general, and complete the destruction, already started by the planes in the impact zone, in particular.
Can you say initiation AND compromised core integrity in one breath?
Arrange to have some fiery aerial impacts, and then shake the smoking sites of carnage to the ground.
Occam's razor?
This absolutely has to be one of the dumbest posts I have ever read.
Congrats Zoctober, just when I thought that the loonyness couldn't get any loonier you've gone and raised the bar.
ROTFLMAO
Arthur
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1olo5_7mKE
One way to initiate the collapse would be via applied mechanical resonance.
Although the principle is exactly the same, I'm not talking about the pocket oscillator device associated with Tesla's urban mayhem. No, I'm talking about modern industrial strength "shakers", suitable for stress testing bridges, etc., bolted up to columns at critical position(s) along the vertical height
Example of an industrial shaker
http://www.labworks-inc.com/products/systems/127_500.htm
Wouldn't this speculation suggest a possible explanation for the tower's vibration, and the seismic activity affecting the secured camera (in sympathy) on the video?
The auto scan mode (of what ever device was used) would sweep through the infrasonic spectrum, hunting for the critical resonant frequency. Was the shaking on the video a hit and lock?
The duration (of the vibration) was short. This could imply that instantaneous structural destruction and damage had occurred, sufficient to alter the building's resonant frequency such that it no longer coincided with the shaker's assigned frequency.
Subjecting the building to this condition, at high amplitude, would certainly devastate the lateral integrity of its' vertical components, in general, and complete the destruction, already started by the planes in the impact zone, in particular.
Can you say initiation AND compromised core integrity in one breath?
Arrange to have some fiery aerial impacts, and then shake the smoking sites of carnage to the ground.
Occam's razor?
This absolutely has to be one of the dumbest posts I have ever read.
Congrats Zoctober, just when I thought that the loonyness couldn't get any loonier you've gone and raised the bar.
ROTFLMAO
Arthur
.
Hi everyone.
Two hurried observations (note: to help ameliorate newton's Aussie-induced
headache, I will avoid using my usual 'style', hehehe).....
RE ground vibrations just before collapse....Has anyone considered what the dead-weight 'stored energy' (in the lower structure due to upper-section's massive upper core and perimeter section and top hat truss etc) would do when that dead weight was suddenly 'uncoupled' from the 'static support' before hand. The sudden recovery pulse would go up and then rebound back down to the ground and basement connections to the surrounding rock/structure. This would be felt just as it WAS 'felt' by witnesses. No biggie elephant there.
Re ground level flames....Can anyone tell me where/how the gas pipelines were routed/protected; and:
- whether they were broken a by initial plane impact mechanical oscillations/waves down the columns?.....and/or
- whether escaping gas buildup ignited by jet-fuel fronts and fires started when the initial fireballs channeled down the broken shafts? and..
- is it possible that some of what CHAINSAW has been pondering has also a pre-existing gas-pipe complication/contribution to the possible explosive' buildups in and below the buildings? and...
- Whether more such 'piped gas explosions' could also have occurred later (after more gas buildups) were coincidentally ignited/exploded simulataneously with collapse start?
Just the briefest of two cents worth. Catch you all next time through.
PS:...I hope that wasn't too painful a word salad for ya, newton! hehehe.
Cheers all!
RC.
.
Hi everyone.
Two hurried observations (note: to help ameliorate newton's Aussie-induced
headache, I will avoid using my usual 'style', hehehe).....
RE ground vibrations just before collapse....Has anyone considered what the dead-weight 'stored energy' (in the lower structure due to upper-section's massive upper core and perimeter section and top hat truss etc) would do when that dead weight was suddenly 'uncoupled' from the 'static support' before hand. The sudden recovery pulse would go up and then rebound back down to the ground and basement connections to the surrounding rock/structure. This would be felt just as it WAS 'felt' by witnesses. No biggie elephant there.
Re ground level flames....Can anyone tell me where/how the gas pipelines were routed/protected; and:
- whether they were broken a by initial plane impact mechanical oscillations/waves down the columns?.....and/or
- whether escaping gas buildup ignited by jet-fuel fronts and fires started when the initial fireballs channeled down the broken shafts? and..
- is it possible that some of what CHAINSAW has been pondering has also a pre-existing gas-pipe complication/contribution to the possible explosive' buildups in and below the buildings? and...
- Whether more such 'piped gas explosions' could also have occurred later (after more gas buildups) were coincidentally ignited/exploded simulataneously with collapse start?
Just the briefest of two cents worth. Catch you all next time through.
PS:...I hope that wasn't too painful a word salad for ya, newton! hehehe.
Cheers all!
RC.
.
But just using the C449 data alone, the poorer hypothesis is still substantially disconfirmed, despite having a deltaT parameter to help it along:
CODE
Sef-K+Z+ZSS-F-exp-pow-stretch dB= 0.0 sd= 0.067
Sef-const-F-const-stretch dB= 9.2 sd= 0.275
Sef-const-F-const-stretch dB= 9.2 sd= 0.275
and it seems that is all we can get. C447 alone does not disconfirm more than dB=4.6. So be it.
QUOTE (newton+Jan 21 2008, 06:45 PM)
my elephant is becoming a herd, arthurs.
Oh really?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/gwion/Twoofgraph.png
Notice how hits on the HotWheels site outnumber all of these Twoofer sites, COMBINED.
As to
Arthur
well, arthur.
why don't you throw in facebook.
kids use the internet a lot more than adults.
as far as hamilton goes, how well was it publicized? how many people could the room hold? it's hard to get people to come out of their cocoons these days.
i don't even go to 9/11 meetings.
MIBs, eh?
I linked to the source, so I'm curious, on such an obviously IMPORTANT ISSUE, what's keeping you?
Arthur
looks like the youtube clip was a CNN clip. is it less valid when it is reposted to youtube, then when it was originally broadcast?
whatever. it was 2006. it passed how it passed.
i admit to being too quick on the draw with that one. when following patterns, sometimes things like this are expected from the likes of these old boys.
i like it einsteen. the still before the storm.
what an exciting time to be (half, *hack, hack*) alive.
Oh really?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/gwion/Twoofgraph.png
Notice how hits on the HotWheels site outnumber all of these Twoofer sites, COMBINED.
As to
QUOTE (newton+)
the bush crime cabal tries to push through legislation making them immune from persecution for war crimes
Source?
Arthur
Source?
Arthur
What is HotWheels? 
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Jan 21 2008, 08:54 PM)
What is HotWheels?
"Do you have any more Questions?"
Just one.
What does mechanical resonance, applied to a physical construction via direct contact with a vibration inducing device have to do with "the Northern lights over New York on 9/11/2001" ???
Tesla was also involved in projecting energy into the atmospheric. So?
If you are trying to demonstrate a talent for missing the point, then I'm impressed.
Just one.
What does mechanical resonance, applied to a physical construction via direct contact with a vibration inducing device have to do with "the Northern lights over New York on 9/11/2001" ???
Tesla was also involved in projecting energy into the atmospheric. So?
If you are trying to demonstrate a talent for missing the point, then I'm impressed.
QUOTE (zoktoberfest+Jan 22 2008, 02:23 AM)
"Do you have any more Questions?"
Just one.
What does mechanical resonance, applied to a physical construction via direct contact with a vibration inducing device have to do with "the Northern lights over New York on 9/11/2001" ???
Tesla was also involved in projecting energy into the atmospheric. So?
If you are trying to demonstrate a talent for missing the point, then I'm impressed.
Nothing,
however what device that is not super conducting and super cooled could do what you propose and how likely is it to survive fires?
How do you power a super cooled super conducting high power device without electrical power?
Just one.
What does mechanical resonance, applied to a physical construction via direct contact with a vibration inducing device have to do with "the Northern lights over New York on 9/11/2001" ???
Tesla was also involved in projecting energy into the atmospheric. So?
If you are trying to demonstrate a talent for missing the point, then I'm impressed.
Nothing,
however what device that is not super conducting and super cooled could do what you propose and how likely is it to survive fires?
How do you power a super cooled super conducting high power device without electrical power?
thanks, RC(for word meat).
even if what you cite as a possible source for a caving in street and fireballs were true, the NIST should have a section on it. they don't mention fireballs at street level.
and, arthurs: bad detective skills. why am i not surprised a .gif named 'twoofgraph' is good enough for you. those sites probably represent no more than 10% of the activity by HONEST RESEARCHERS. it should be called a "patriotgraph", and it should include about fifty other 'twoofer' sites, like AE911, ATS, the black vault, hundreds or thousands of personal blogs......
i just ran into a whole gaggle of 'twoofers'. one of them bought twenty copies of zeitgeist to hand out to people and wake them up. these same people knew nothing until a few months ago, and now, they are evangelists.
others i tried to convince for YEARS, are now trying to 'impress me' with facts about bush/nazi/bin laden ties.
i'm impressed.
here's the war crime crap....
immunity back to 9/11 for the bush league
okay. it's from 2006, and it passed. the president pardons himself from warcrimes. no biggie, eh, arthurs?
even if what you cite as a possible source for a caving in street and fireballs were true, the NIST should have a section on it. they don't mention fireballs at street level.
and, arthurs: bad detective skills. why am i not surprised a .gif named 'twoofgraph' is good enough for you. those sites probably represent no more than 10% of the activity by HONEST RESEARCHERS. it should be called a "patriotgraph", and it should include about fifty other 'twoofer' sites, like AE911, ATS, the black vault, hundreds or thousands of personal blogs......
i just ran into a whole gaggle of 'twoofers'. one of them bought twenty copies of zeitgeist to hand out to people and wake them up. these same people knew nothing until a few months ago, and now, they are evangelists.
others i tried to convince for YEARS, are now trying to 'impress me' with facts about bush/nazi/bin laden ties.
i'm impressed.
here's the war crime crap....
immunity back to 9/11 for the bush league
okay. it's from 2006, and it passed. the president pardons himself from warcrimes. no biggie, eh, arthurs?
QUOTE (newton+Jan 22 2008, 03:11 AM)
thanks, RC(for word meat).
even if what you cite as a possible source for a caving in street and fireballs were true, the NIST should have a section on it. they don't mention fireballs at street level.
and, arthurs: bad detective skills. why am i not surprised a .gif named 'twoofgraph' is good enough for you. those sites probably represent no more than 10% of the activity by HONEST RESEARCHERS. it should be called a "patriotgraph", and it should include about fifty other 'twoofer' sites, like AE911, ATS, the black vault, hundreds or thousands of personal blogs......
i just ran into a whole gaggle of 'twoofers'. one of them bought twenty copies of zeitgeist to hand out to people and wake them up. these same people knew nothing until a few months ago, and now, they are evangelists.
others i tried to convince for YEARS, are now trying to 'impress me' with facts about bush/nazi/bin laden ties.
i'm impressed.
here's the war crime crap....
immunity back to 9/11 for the bush league
okay. it's from 2006, and it passed. the president pardons himself from warcrimes. no biggie, eh, arthurs?
Happy to oblige, newton!
But I don't recall 'streets' per se being 'caved in'. I thought it was the sub-ground structure of the WTC tower complex area?
And were they possibly 'caved in' by heavy pieces of debris from above and/or piped gas explosions below?
And flames were seen coming out of the ground floor vestibule wasn't there?
Could some of those flames have been from piped gas from broken feeds being ignited by the downshaft plane-fuel conflagration fronts?
PS: A "gaggle of twoofers"? Is that anything like the "mob of mormons" that come calling at my door from time to time? hehehe. Just this "Aussie' kidding ya, mate!
Cheers!
RC.
.
even if what you cite as a possible source for a caving in street and fireballs were true, the NIST should have a section on it. they don't mention fireballs at street level.
and, arthurs: bad detective skills. why am i not surprised a .gif named 'twoofgraph' is good enough for you. those sites probably represent no more than 10% of the activity by HONEST RESEARCHERS. it should be called a "patriotgraph", and it should include about fifty other 'twoofer' sites, like AE911, ATS, the black vault, hundreds or thousands of personal blogs......
i just ran into a whole gaggle of 'twoofers'. one of them bought twenty copies of zeitgeist to hand out to people and wake them up. these same people knew nothing until a few months ago, and now, they are evangelists.
others i tried to convince for YEARS, are now trying to 'impress me' with facts about bush/nazi/bin laden ties.
i'm impressed.
here's the war crime crap....
immunity back to 9/11 for the bush league
okay. it's from 2006, and it passed. the president pardons himself from warcrimes. no biggie, eh, arthurs?
Happy to oblige, newton!
But I don't recall 'streets' per se being 'caved in'. I thought it was the sub-ground structure of the WTC tower complex area?
And were they possibly 'caved in' by heavy pieces of debris from above and/or piped gas explosions below?
And flames were seen coming out of the ground floor vestibule wasn't there?
Could some of those flames have been from piped gas from broken feeds being ignited by the downshaft plane-fuel conflagration fronts?
PS: A "gaggle of twoofers"? Is that anything like the "mob of mormons" that come calling at my door from time to time? hehehe. Just this "Aussie' kidding ya, mate!
Cheers!
RC.
.
QUOTE (newton+Jan 21 2008, 10:11 PM)
here's the war crime crap....
immunity back to 9/11 for the bush league
okay. it's from 2006, and it passed. the president pardons himself from warcrimes. no biggie, eh, arthurs?
Typical of Twoofers, who apparently get their news from YouTube.
Cafferty was apparently talking about a HOUSE bill.
H.R. 6166 [109th]: Military Commissions Act of 2006, which was passed in the House in Sept of 06 This bill passed in the House of Representatives by roll call vote. The totals were 253 Ayes, 168 Nays, 12 Present/Not Voting, but the bill was not passed by the Senate and died.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?b...h109-6166#votes
The Senate version, that WAS passed, was S109-3930 and did not contain any immunity from prosecution (though it did mandate that if charged with a crime, the Govt would provide Counsel)
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=s109-3930
But if you disagree with me, then simply show where in this legislation it provides immunity from War Crimes.
If you can't I'd appreciate it if you would retract your statement.
Thanks
Arthur
immunity back to 9/11 for the bush league
okay. it's from 2006, and it passed. the president pardons himself from warcrimes. no biggie, eh, arthurs?
Typical of Twoofers, who apparently get their news from YouTube.
Cafferty was apparently talking about a HOUSE bill.
H.R. 6166 [109th]: Military Commissions Act of 2006, which was passed in the House in Sept of 06 This bill passed in the House of Representatives by roll call vote. The totals were 253 Ayes, 168 Nays, 12 Present/Not Voting, but the bill was not passed by the Senate and died.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?b...h109-6166#votes
The Senate version, that WAS passed, was S109-3930 and did not contain any immunity from prosecution (though it did mandate that if charged with a crime, the Govt would provide Counsel)
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=s109-3930
But if you disagree with me, then simply show where in this legislation it provides immunity from War Crimes.
If you can't I'd appreciate it if you would retract your statement.
Thanks
Arthur
QUOTE (newton+Jan 21 2008, 10:11 PM)
even if what you cite as a possible source for a caving in street and fireballs were true, the NIST should have a section on it. they don't mention fireballs at street level.
They don't mention it because the cave in would have to have been AFTER one or both of the towers fell.
Not a factor in WHY the towers fell since the collapse BEGAN, in both towers, at the impact/fire zone.
Arthur
They don't mention it because the cave in would have to have been AFTER one or both of the towers fell.
Not a factor in WHY the towers fell since the collapse BEGAN, in both towers, at the impact/fire zone.
Arthur
QUOTE (newton+Jan 21 2008, 10:11 PM)
and, arthurs: bad detective skills. why am i not surprised a .gif named 'twoofgraph' is good enough for you. those sites probably represent no more than 10% of the activity by HONEST RESEARCHERS. it should be called a "patriotgraph", and it should include about fifty other 'twoofer' sites, like AE911, ATS, the black vault, hundreds or thousands of personal blogs......
Yeah, well I get around a tad, and I've YET to meet a Twoofer IN REAL LIFE.
Why is that newton?
Traffic Rank (note LOWER means higher rank)
Traffic Rank for Abovetopsecret.com, which is about a LOT more than 9/11:
Alexa traffic rank based on a combined measure of page views and users (reach)
Yesterday 8,979
1 wk. Avg. 9,624
3 mos. Avg. 10,340
3 mos. Change DOWN 598
Traffic rank based on a combined measure of page views and users (reach)
http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_.../ae911truth.org
1 wk. Avg. 277,459
3 mos. Avg. 293,867
3 mos. Change DOWN 60,473
Note the 3 month AVERAGE PAGE VIEW on ae911truth is a PALTRY 1.9
Which means MOST people who go there SPLIT, without exploring the site at all.
Or "the Black Vault", a UFO site:
http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_...eblackvault.com
HotWheels blows them ALL out of the water (even when you combine them)
http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_...s/hotwheels.com
So, newton, your set of sites, even when the biggest of them are not dedicated 9-11 sites, but paranormal/UFO sites, all combined, do not equal a site for a common childs toy.
ROTFLMAO
Arthur
Yeah, well I get around a tad, and I've YET to meet a Twoofer IN REAL LIFE.
Why is that newton?
Traffic Rank (note LOWER means higher rank)
Traffic Rank for Abovetopsecret.com, which is about a LOT more than 9/11:
Alexa traffic rank based on a combined measure of page views and users (reach)
Yesterday 8,979
1 wk. Avg. 9,624
3 mos. Avg. 10,340
3 mos. Change DOWN 598
Traffic rank based on a combined measure of page views and users (reach)
http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_.../ae911truth.org
1 wk. Avg. 277,459
3 mos. Avg. 293,867
3 mos. Change DOWN 60,473
Note the 3 month AVERAGE PAGE VIEW on ae911truth is a PALTRY 1.9
Which means MOST people who go there SPLIT, without exploring the site at all.
Or "the Black Vault", a UFO site:
http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_...eblackvault.com
HotWheels blows them ALL out of the water (even when you combine them)
http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_...s/hotwheels.com
So, newton, your set of sites, even when the biggest of them are not dedicated 9-11 sites, but paranormal/UFO sites, all combined, do not equal a site for a common childs toy.
ROTFLMAO
Arthur
Chainsaw,
A characteristic of a system in a state of resonance is the propensity for spontaneity and self actuation, sustained with only a small amount of input energy, proportionately, to offset resistance, delivered at the critical frequency.
I gave an example of an industrial shaker in my post which included the specs0
http://www.labworks-inc.com/products/systems/127_500.htm
Power Requirements:
5.200 VA @ 100, 110, 200, 220, or 240V, single phase 50/60 Hz
I am not aware that civil engineers, stress testing bridges, require super cooled shakers, requiring unlimited current from super conductive sources.
The shakers would be mounted (if they were) somewhere, well below the impact site, probably at a major harmonic point.
Shaker are mostly electromagnetic, some are powered with an internal combustion engine, and others energized pneumatically (compressor and/or pressurized tanks). Tesla's "earthquake machine" was pneumatic in nature. I suppose a hydraulic system is possible. There may be other ways, that I can't think of at the moment.
How is elevating this discussion into the unrealistic realm of super cooling and super conductivity, and then showing how these extreme conditions could not be met, not a text book example of a straw man device?
You set em' up, and you knock em' down.
I'm just considering the largest field unit available that a civil engineer would transport to a site, not opening up a worm hole into another dimension.
Yes, shakers get hot with prolong use, but so does a jackhammer. A shaker is a glorified jackhammer, but with an infinitely precise capability for adjustment of frequency and amplitude, and a data linkage.
You don't think there were big generators available in the machine rooms?
A characteristic of a system in a state of resonance is the propensity for spontaneity and self actuation, sustained with only a small amount of input energy, proportionately, to offset resistance, delivered at the critical frequency.
I gave an example of an industrial shaker in my post which included the specs0
http://www.labworks-inc.com/products/systems/127_500.htm
Power Requirements:
5.200 VA @ 100, 110, 200, 220, or 240V, single phase 50/60 Hz
I am not aware that civil engineers, stress testing bridges, require super cooled shakers, requiring unlimited current from super conductive sources.
The shakers would be mounted (if they were) somewhere, well below the impact site, probably at a major harmonic point.
Shaker are mostly electromagnetic, some are powered with an internal combustion engine, and others energized pneumatically (compressor and/or pressurized tanks). Tesla's "earthquake machine" was pneumatic in nature. I suppose a hydraulic system is possible. There may be other ways, that I can't think of at the moment.
How is elevating this discussion into the unrealistic realm of super cooling and super conductivity, and then showing how these extreme conditions could not be met, not a text book example of a straw man device?
You set em' up, and you knock em' down.
I'm just considering the largest field unit available that a civil engineer would transport to a site, not opening up a worm hole into another dimension.
Yes, shakers get hot with prolong use, but so does a jackhammer. A shaker is a glorified jackhammer, but with an infinitely precise capability for adjustment of frequency and amplitude, and a data linkage.
You don't think there were big generators available in the machine rooms?
QUOTE (OneWhiteEye+Jan 21 2008, 06:30 AM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Jan 22 2008, 01:34 AM)
Notice how hits on the HotWheels site outnumber all of these Twoofer sites, COMBINED.
Arthur
Like Britney Spears outnumbers Miles davis ?
Arthur
Like Britney Spears outnumbers Miles davis ?
Neu, David,
I was just wondering, is it possible to proof mathematically that collapse initiation is possible ? I mean if you setup a 1d model with a mass on top and a function
F(y) that satisfies the integral condition (equal to E1) then I would say that a small initial movement is absorbed.
I was just wondering, is it possible to proof mathematically that collapse initiation is possible ? I mean if you setup a 1d model with a mass on top and a function
F(y) that satisfies the integral condition (equal to E1) then I would say that a small initial movement is absorbed.
QUOTE (einsteen+Jan 22 2008, 04:14 AM)
Like Britney Spears outnumbers Miles davis ?
Nope, unfair to Miles as Britney is so huge they refer to the "Britney Economy".
Think more like Leslie Feist compared to Miles Davis.
Both are SMALL, but still, in comparison, Feist dwarfs Miles in CURRENT interest.
http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_...stentofeist.com
http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_.../milesdavis.com
What's more is the Twoofers are basically ONLY found on the Internet. As I pointed out, I've never met one IN REAL LIFE.
Have you?
Has any normal person on this site met an ACTUAL TRUTHER?
If so where besides GZ (Their Mecca of sorts)?
What is the LARGEST GATHERING of TRUTHERS that anyone can point to?
I point this out, because since Truthers only make their presense known in somewhat obscure Web Sites, then ALEXA type statistics seem to be a valid measure of the relative size of the Truther community.
Surely if you used just the size of the few PHYSICAL gatherings (Conferences, Rallies, Protests etc) you would conclude that there is NO 911-Truth movement at all.
Arthur
Nope, unfair to Miles as Britney is so huge they refer to the "Britney Economy".
Think more like Leslie Feist compared to Miles Davis.
Both are SMALL, but still, in comparison, Feist dwarfs Miles in CURRENT interest.
http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_...stentofeist.com
http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_.../milesdavis.com
What's more is the Twoofers are basically ONLY found on the Internet. As I pointed out, I've never met one IN REAL LIFE.
Have you?
Has any normal person on this site met an ACTUAL TRUTHER?
If so where besides GZ (Their Mecca of sorts)?
What is the LARGEST GATHERING of TRUTHERS that anyone can point to?
I point this out, because since Truthers only make their presense known in somewhat obscure Web Sites, then ALEXA type statistics seem to be a valid measure of the relative size of the Truther community.
Surely if you used just the size of the few PHYSICAL gatherings (Conferences, Rallies, Protests etc) you would conclude that there is NO 911-Truth movement at all.
Arthur
aha, now I see.
My personal experience with truther sites is that they do more harm than good, there are exceptions of course, but a couple of them are suspicious. Assume you create such a site, pay for the domain etc, I guess you look around the net if there are good debunks , if that is the case then correct your site, modify it. Some of them contain old and false information, the newbie who reads about conspiracies is sucked into such a site and then is an easy target to ridicule and probably later might think, crap really everything is wrong. In this way the real monster is hard to find...
My personal experience with truther sites is that they do more harm than good, there are exceptions of course, but a couple of them are suspicious. Assume you create such a site, pay for the domain etc, I guess you look around the net if there are good debunks , if that is the case then correct your site, modify it. Some of them contain old and false information, the newbie who reads about conspiracies is sucked into such a site and then is an easy target to ridicule and probably later might think, crap really everything is wrong. In this way the real monster is hard to find...
QUOTE (einsteen+Jan 22 2008, 09:14 AM)
aha, now I see.
My personal experience with truther sites is that they do more harm than good, there are exceptions of course, but a couple of them are suspicious. Assume you create such a site, pay for the domain etc, I guess you look around the net if there are good debunks , if that is the case then correct your site, modify it. Some of them contain old and false information, the newbie who reads about conspiracies is sucked into such a site and then is an easy target to ridicule and probably later might think, crap really everything is wrong. In this way the real monster is hard to find...
Its NOT disinfo Einsteen, its just plain stupidity.
But ignore the way out sites, name your TOP 10 Truther sites that you believe are mostly TRUTHFUL.
i.e. they have few to no claims on them them that haven't been PROVEN to be false?
Arthur
My personal experience with truther sites is that they do more harm than good, there are exceptions of course, but a couple of them are suspicious. Assume you create such a site, pay for the domain etc, I guess you look around the net if there are good debunks , if that is the case then correct your site, modify it. Some of them contain old and false information, the newbie who reads about conspiracies is sucked into such a site and then is an easy target to ridicule and probably later might think, crap really everything is wrong. In this way the real monster is hard to find...
Its NOT disinfo Einsteen, its just plain stupidity.
But ignore the way out sites, name your TOP 10 Truther sites that you believe are mostly TRUTHFUL.
i.e. they have few to no claims on them them that haven't been PROVEN to be false?
Arthur
Judy Wood is fantastic for example!
QUOTE (zoktoberfest+Jan 22 2008, 06:14 AM)
Chainsaw,
A characteristic of a system in a state of resonance is the propensity for spontaneity and self actuation, sustained with only a small amount of input energy, proportionately, to offset resistance, delivered at the critical frequency.
I gave an example of an industrial shaker in my post which included the specs0
http://www.labworks-inc.com/products/systems/127_500.htm
Power Requirements:
5.200 VA @ 100, 110, 200, 220, or 240V, single phase 50/60 Hz
I am not aware that civil engineers, stress testing bridges, require super cooled shakers, requiring unlimited current from super conductive sources.
The shakers would be mounted (if they were) somewhere, well below the impact site, probably at a major harmonic point.
Shaker are mostly electromagnetic, some are powered with an internal combustion engine, and others energized pneumatically (compressor and/or pressurized tanks). Tesla's "earthquake machine" was pneumatic in nature. I suppose a hydraulic system is possible. There may be other ways, that I can't think of at the moment.
How is elevating this discussion into the unrealistic realm of super cooling and super conductivity, and then showing how these extreme conditions could not be met, not a text book example of a straw man device?
You set em' up, and you knock em' down.
I'm just considering the largest field unit available that a civil engineer would transport to a site, not opening up a worm hole into another dimension.
Yes, shakers get hot with prolong use, but so does a jackhammer. A shaker is a glorified jackhammer, but with an infinitely precise capability for adjustment of frequency and amplitude, and a data linkage.
You don't think there were big generators available in the machine rooms?
zoktoberfest
Thanks for proving my point, that unit is to small to do what your claiming it only exhorts 500 pounds of force so the beam would just absorb that.
You would need a much larger more powerful device, most likely to reduce power input it would use superconducting magnets like a modern MRI machine.
You Also need a large amount of electricity to operate it.
A characteristic of a system in a state of resonance is the propensity for spontaneity and self actuation, sustained with only a small amount of input energy, proportionately, to offset resistance, delivered at the critical frequency.
I gave an example of an industrial shaker in my post which included the specs0
http://www.labworks-inc.com/products/systems/127_500.htm
Power Requirements:
5.200 VA @ 100, 110, 200, 220, or 240V, single phase 50/60 Hz
I am not aware that civil engineers, stress testing bridges, require super cooled shakers, requiring unlimited current from super conductive sources.
The shakers would be mounted (if they were) somewhere, well below the impact site, probably at a major harmonic point.
Shaker are mostly electromagnetic, some are powered with an internal combustion engine, and others energized pneumatically (compressor and/or pressurized tanks). Tesla's "earthquake machine" was pneumatic in nature. I suppose a hydraulic system is possible. There may be other ways, that I can't think of at the moment.
How is elevating this discussion into the unrealistic realm of super cooling and super conductivity, and then showing how these extreme conditions could not be met, not a text book example of a straw man device?
You set em' up, and you knock em' down.
I'm just considering the largest field unit available that a civil engineer would transport to a site, not opening up a worm hole into another dimension.
Yes, shakers get hot with prolong use, but so does a jackhammer. A shaker is a glorified jackhammer, but with an infinitely precise capability for adjustment of frequency and amplitude, and a data linkage.
You don't think there were big generators available in the machine rooms?
zoktoberfest
Thanks for proving my point, that unit is to small to do what your claiming it only exhorts 500 pounds of force so the beam would just absorb that.
You would need a much larger more powerful device, most likely to reduce power input it would use superconducting magnets like a modern MRI machine.
You Also need a large amount of electricity to operate it.
Arthur:
Believe it or not I have met quite a few "truthers". I attended one of their meetings here in Hamilton, Canada, about a year ago; there must have been about 50 of them. It was quite a mixture of old and young folks. There were some hippie types and some I thought must have been MIBs.... (Yes, very spooky!) We watched a few videos and then had a debate. When I challenged some of their views I was met with stony SILENCE......
Einsteen:
Why restrict collapse models to 1-D? I believe rotation was key to collapse initiation, in which case you need at least a 2-D model!
Believe it or not I have met quite a few "truthers". I attended one of their meetings here in Hamilton, Canada, about a year ago; there must have been about 50 of them. It was quite a mixture of old and young folks. There were some hippie types and some I thought must have been MIBs.... (Yes, very spooky!) We watched a few videos and then had a debate. When I challenged some of their views I was met with stony SILENCE......
Einsteen:
Why restrict collapse models to 1-D? I believe rotation was key to collapse initiation, in which case you need at least a 2-D model!
QUOTE (NEU-FONZE+Jan 22 2008, 09:44 AM)
Believe it or not I have met quite a few "truthers". I attended one of their meetings here in Hamilton, Canada, about a year ago; there must have been about 50 of them. It was quite a mixture of old and young folks. There were some hippie types and some I thought must have been MIBs.... (Yes, very spooky!) We watched a few videos and then had a debate. When I challenged some of their views I was met with stony SILENCE......
But that's my point Frank.
Hamilton has an Urban Area Population of ~ 650,000 people.
But a Truther meeting only brings out ~ 50 or so???
That's pretty PATHETIC for any MOVEMENT that claims its GROWING.
As to the lack of debate, I'd say that is to be expected.
The majority of CTers who come here are pretty much complete idiots as to the science involved. Its only a relative few who can actually debate the issue with any level of competence.
Confronted with an actual scientist who has actually read the NIST report and studied the issues and can also articulate them, I'd not expect many to attempt to challenge you to an open debate.
Arthur
But that's my point Frank.
Hamilton has an Urban Area Population of ~ 650,000 people.
But a Truther meeting only brings out ~ 50 or so???
That's pretty PATHETIC for any MOVEMENT that claims its GROWING.
As to the lack of debate, I'd say that is to be expected.
The majority of CTers who come here are pretty much complete idiots as to the science involved. Its only a relative few who can actually debate the issue with any level of competence.
Confronted with an actual scientist who has actually read the NIST report and studied the issues and can also articulate them, I'd not expect many to attempt to challenge you to an open debate.
Arthur
QUOTE (adoucette+Jan 22 2008, 05:35 AM)
Arthur
well, arthur.
why don't you throw in facebook.
kids use the internet a lot more than adults.
as far as hamilton goes, how well was it publicized? how many people could the room hold? it's hard to get people to come out of their cocoons these days.
i don't even go to 9/11 meetings.
MIBs, eh?
Neu, that's true. But the progress models should also be 2d or 3d, makes it impossible to solve. But on the other hand could it be proved mathematically (without reading 10,000 pages) ? I think that's a nice challenge.
QUOTE (newton+Jan 22 2008, 11:12 AM)
well, arthur.
why don't you throw in facebook.
kids use the internet a lot more than adults.
as far as hamilton goes, how well was it publicized? how many people could the room hold? it's hard to get people to come out of their cocoons these days.
i don't even go to 9/11 meetings.
MIBs, eh?
Another nothing post from newton.
I chose Hotwheels as a comparison because it is not some internet rage like Facebook. It, like the TWOOF movement has only limited appeal. Also like the Twoof movement, its appeal is also mainly to adolescent boys even if the Hotwheel fans are a tad younger.
You claimed the movement was growing.
I posted evidence that it was not.
You posted ==>
Typical
By the way, I'm STILL waiting on you to show me where in that Senate passed legislation they gave retroactive immunity for War Crimes.
I linked to the source, so I'm curious, on such an obviously IMPORTANT ISSUE, what's keeping you?
Arthur
why don't you throw in facebook.
kids use the internet a lot more than adults.
as far as hamilton goes, how well was it publicized? how many people could the room hold? it's hard to get people to come out of their cocoons these days.
i don't even go to 9/11 meetings.
MIBs, eh?
Another nothing post from newton.
I chose Hotwheels as a comparison because it is not some internet rage like Facebook. It, like the TWOOF movement has only limited appeal. Also like the Twoof movement, its appeal is also mainly to adolescent boys even if the Hotwheel fans are a tad younger.
You claimed the movement was growing.
I posted evidence that it was not.
You posted ==>
Typical
By the way, I'm STILL waiting on you to show me where in that Senate passed legislation they gave retroactive immunity for War Crimes.
I linked to the source, so I'm curious, on such an obviously IMPORTANT ISSUE, what's keeping you?
Arthur
QUOTE (einsteen+Jan 22 2008, 11:52 AM)
Arthur, maybe it is the so-called silence before the storm ?
http://i1.tinypic.com/86e9xms.jpg
I sincerely doubt it since the VAST majority of his points are easily disproven. He scored some points simply because the other party, clealy having NEVER heard of this BS, didn't have the facts on hand to actually do so at the moment.
But, I'd be willing to bet, that if he tries this sort of thing again, they will.
Below is a transcript of testimony in the Japanese Parliament.
The Member of Parliament talking about 911 is Yukihisa Fujita from the Democratic Party of Japan.
Head of the committee:
We will now begin the first session of the defense and foreign affairs committee. We will now start discussing the special anti-terror law. .We now call on Mr. Yukihisa Fujita
Fujita standing in front of microphone:
This will be the last televised broadcast of this committee for so I would like to talk about the origin of the war on terrorism which was the attacks of 911. On September 11 of 2002 I went to a theater house for a charity concert to help build a school in Afghanistan. They chose to have the charity concert on that day as a gesture of respect for the dead. Normally 911 commemorative events are for the people who died in New York but the people who held this event decided that more innocent people died as a result of 911 in Afghanistan than in New York. So they built a grade school near where the statue of Buddha was destroyed in Bamiyan. The name of the school is "the school of hope." They also lit candles to commemorate the dead both in Afghanistan and in New York in the year 2002, one year after the attacks. So, when discussing these anti-terror laws we should ask ourselves, what was 911, what is terrorism? So today, I would like to talk about the beginning of the war on terror.
So, I would like to ask the people who call this law an anti-terror law to realize that the biggest victim of the war on terrorism has been Afghanistan so I believe helping the people of Afghanistan should be our biggest priority. I would like to ask Mr. Inuzuka about this.
Tadashi Inuzuka walking to the microphone:
As Mr. Fujita says the main purpose of this law is to provide peace and security to Afghanistan. And, as he says, the biggest sufferers have been the people of Afghanistan. Afghanistan has 1.7 times the land area of Japan and 20 some million people live there. Also, because of a drought on the Eurasian continent close to 5 million have died due to water shortages. Even now 1 million people live close to the main battlegrounds. So, the main purpose is to provide stability to those war zones so in that context what should Japan do? However, instead of providing support by providing fuel to the U.S. forces we at the Democratic Party have decided that providing water is more important. The philosophy behind our anti-terror law is to get the ruling party to help deal with this problem.
Head of the committee: Mr. Fujita
Mr. Fujita:
I would like to talk about the origins of this war on terrorism. You may recall that in November I asked you if terrorism was war or if it was a crime. And the whole start of this war on terrorism was 911. What I want to know is if this event was caused by Al Qaeda or not. So far the only thing the government has said is that we think it was caused by Al Qaeda because President Bush told us so. We have not seen any real proof that it was Al Qaeda. I would like to know why the Prime Minister thinks it was the Taliban who was responsible for 911. Committee Chief, I want to ask the Prime Minister because he was chief cabinet officer at the time.
Prime Minister Fukuda:
Since the attacks we have communicated with the U.S. government and other governments at different levels and exchanged information. According to secret information obtained by our government and reports put together by foreign governments the 911 attacks were carried out by the international terrorist organization known as Al Qaeda.
Mr. Fujita:
So, you are talking about both secret and disclosed information. My question is has the Japanese government carried out its own investigation using the police and other resources? It is a crime so surely an investigation needs to be carried out. When a Japanese journalist was shot in Myanmar you carried out an investigation. In the same way over 20 Japanese people died on 911 so surely the government carried out its own investigation and decided that Al Qaeda was responsible. So, what kind of investigation did you carry out? At the time you were Chief Cabinet Secretary so surely you would know better than anybody so I want to ask you about your investigation.
Prime Minister Fukuda:
After the 911 attacks the National Police Agency sent an emergency anti-terror team to New York. They met with U.S. government officials and gathered information about missing Japanese.
Mr. Fujita:
So you are saying over 20 people died as a result of a crime and most of those people were working in New York. Also there were some Japanese who died in the four airplanes that were hijacked. I would like to know exactly how many people died in the buildings and how many died in the airplanes. I also want to know how you confirmed this. I would like the Foreign Minister to answer for me.
Foreign Minister Masahiko Komura standing at right in front of microphone:
We found the bodies of over a dozen Japanese following the simultaneous terror attacks carried out on September 11 2001. We were also informed about the death of 11 more people by the U.S. authorities. In total 24 Japanese died in those attacks. Of those 2 were in the airplanes.
Mr. Fujita:
I would like to ask what flights the two Japanese who died in the airplanes were on and how you determined who they were. If the foreign minister does not know it is OK to get a bureaucrat to answer:
Foreign Ministry division chief Ryoji Tanizaki:
Since this a question of fact, I will answer. As the Foreign Minister said, of the 24 people who died two were on the airplanes. One of them was on United Flight 93 and the other was on American airlines flight 11.As for how we know this, well I do not have the information in front of me but we were told by U.S. authorities and, in general, they use DNA testing. So we believe that is how we know about those two people.
Mr. Fujita:
So you are saying you do not know because you do not have the documents. Also, you say you believe there was DNA testing but you do not know. So what I want to say today is that this was a crime and crimes are supposed to be investigated. So the government needs to inform the victims families of the results of their investigation. Also, instead of just observing the anniversary of 911 every year you must be gathering information and reacting to it. So, during the past six years have you been supplying the families of the deceased with information? I would like to ask the Foreign Minister to answer.
Foreign Minister Masahiko Komura:
So you do not want to ask any more about how we confirmed the deaths of Japanese but want to know about reports to the victims families? We provided the families with information about the bodies and about compensation funds. Also, for the 13 Japanese whose remains we found, we helped the families deal with the bodies. We also financial support visits to the World Trade Center site for the families on every anniversary.
Mr. Fujita:
Since I do not have much time I would like to ask about the suspicious information being uncovered and the doubts people world wide are having about the events of 911. Many of these doubters are very influential people. In such circumstances I believe the Japanese government, which claims the attacks were carried out by Al Qaeda, should be providing the victims families with this new information. In that context I would like to ask several questions.
First of all I would like to get all members of the committee to look at this panel and look at the pictures I have provided you with. This is concrete evidence in the form of photographs and other types of information. The first photograph has computer graphics attached to show how large the plane that hit the Pentagon was. A 757 is quite a large airplane with a width of 38 meters. So as you can see even though such a large plane hit the pentagon there is only a hole that is too small for the airplane. This is a photograph taken of firemen at work and you can also see there is no damage of the sort an airplane that large should make. I would also like you to look at the lawn in front and notice that there are no airplane parts on it. Let us now look at the third picture, which is also of the pentagon taken from a U.S. TV news report has captions that show the roof of the Pentagon is still intact. Again even though a huge airplane is supposed to have hit, there is not enough corresponding damage. Now let us move to the next photograph. Here is a photograph of a hole, as Minister Komura knows the Pentagon is a very strong building with many walls. Yet the airplane has pierced them. But as you know, airplanes are made of the lightest possible material. An airplane made of such light material could not make a hole like that. Next I would like to show a photograph of how the airplane hit the building. The airplane made a U-turn, avoiding the Defense Secretary's office and hitting the only part of the Pentagon that had been specially reinforced to withstand a bomb attack.
Also, in the middle of page five we have a comment from a U.S. airforce official. He says I have flown the two types of airplane used on 911 and I cannot believe it would be possible for someone who is flying one for the first time to be able to carry out such a maneuver. Also, as you know, they have not recovered the flight recorders from most of these 4 airplanes. Also, there were more than 80 security cameras at the Pentagon but they have refused to release almost all of the footage. In any case, as you have just seen there is no picture of the airplane or of its wreckage in any of these photographs. It is very strange that no such pictures have been shown to us.
As you know Japan's self-defense forces have their headquarters in Ichigaya. Can you imagine if an airplane hit a major city, if an hour and a half after an airplane hit New York that an airplane could hit the Pentagon? In such a situation how could our allies allow such an attack to take place. I would like the Defense Minister to answer this.
Defense Minister Fuyushiba Ishiba:
I have not prepared so I will have to answer ad-lib. If such a situation took place then the airforce would send fighters up to shoot down any airplanes. This is what happened with an attack on the German constitutional court. In the case of Japan our reaction would depend on what kind of airplane it was, who was flying it and what their purpose was. However, according to our laws it might be hard to order an airplane to be shot down just because it was flying at a low level. We would probably have self-defense forces fly with it and ask for a cabinet decision. Since an airplane would have many people on board we would have do discuss what to do. This happened a long time ago but a Cesna airplane was flown into the house of a person called Yoshio Kodama. There was also an All Japan Airways flight bound for Hakodate that was hijacked and had the pilot killed. It would be best if such a thing never happened but we need to prepare new laws for such situations and discuss them in Parliament.
Mr. Fujita:
Since we are running out of time I would like to present a new piece of evidence. Please look at this panel. The first picture is one you see often of the two towers that were hit by hijacked airplanes. I could understand if this happened right after the airplanes hit but here we can see large piece of material flying a large distance through the air. Some flew 150 meters. You can objects flying in this picture as if there was an explosion. Here is a picture I took from a book. This lets you see how far the objects flew. The third picture is of a fireman who was involved in the rescue talking about a series of explosions in the building that sounded like a professional demolition. We cannot present video today so I have written a translation of what the fireman said. Here his is saying "it went boom boom boom like explosions were going off."
Here is something said by a Japanese research team of officials from the fire department and the construction ministry. The interviewed a Japanese survivor who said that while she was fleeing there were explosions. This testimony appears in a report prepared with the aid of the construction ministry and the fire department. Now I would like you to see the following picture. Normally it is said that the twin towers collapsed because they were hit by airplanes. However, one block away from the twin towers is building number 7. It can be seen in the following map a block away from the WTC. This building collapsed 7 hours after the WTC buildings were attacked. If I could show you a video it would be easy to understand but take a look at this photograph. This is a 47 story building that fell in this manner (He drops and object to demonstrate). The building falls in five or six seconds. It is about the same speed as an object would fall in a vacuum. This building falls like something you would see in a Kabuki show. Also if falls while keeping its shape. Remember it was not hit by an airplane. You have to ask yourself if a building could fall in that manner due to a fire after 7 hours. Here we have a copy of the 911 commission report. This is a report put out by the U.S. government in July of 2004 but this report does not mention the collapse of the building I just described. It is not mentioned at all in here (he waves the book). FEMA also issued a report but they also fail to mention this building. Many people believe, especially after seeing the story about building number 7, that something is strange. Since this is an incident where many people died people think is should be investigated.
We are running out of time but I would also like to mention the put options. Just before the 911 attacks, ie on September 6th, 7th and 8th there were put options put out on the stocks of the two airlines United and American that were hit by hijackers. There were also put options on Merril Lynch, one of the biggest WTC tenants. In other words somebody had insider information and made a fortune selling put options of these stocks. The head of Germany's Bundesbank at the time, who is equivalent to the Governor of the Bank of Japan, said there are lots of facts to prove the people involved in the terror attacks profited from insider information. He said there was lots of suspicious trading involving financial companies etc prior to the attacks. The had of the Bundesbank was willing to say this much. I would like to ask the Finance Minster about these put options. Did the government of Japan know about this, and what do you think about this? I would like to ask Finance Minister Nukaga about this.
Finance Minister Fukushiro Nukaga:
I was in Burkina Fasso in Africa when I heard about this incident. I decided to fly immediately to the U.S. but when I got to Paris I was told there were no flights to America. So I only heard what was reported later about the facts. I know there have been reports about the points you raise. So we made it obligatory that people provide ID for securities transactions and for suspicious transactions to be reported and we made it a crime to provide money to terrorist organizations. We believe the international financial system should not be abused. In any case, terrorism is a horrible thing and must be condemned. This type of terrorism cannot be stopped by one country but needs to be stopped by international society.
Mr. Fujita:
I would like to ask finance specialist Mr. Asao to tell me about put options. A group of people with large amounts of money, clear insider information and financial expertise would have been necessary for such a thing to take place. Could a few terrorists in Afghanistand and Pakistan carry out such a sophisticated and large scale set of transactions? I would like to ask Mr. Asao to respond.
Keiichiro Asao:
I understand put options are a deal to sell stocks at a fixed price. In this case somebody must have had insider information to carry out such transactions because nobody could normally predict these airlines would have their planes hijacked. So, I believe this was certainly a case of insider trading.
Mr. Fujita:
Prime Minister, you were Chief Cabinet Secretary at the time and as somebody has already noted, this was an incident of the sort that humanity had never previously experienced. Also, there appears to be a lot more information about this incident coming out now than came out in the months after the attacks. Now that we are an internet and visual society, this information is being made public so if we look at the situation now, the whole starting point for these two laws , the start of the war on terror itself, as you have seen from the information I have presented, has not been properly investigated or analyzed. So I do not believe the government has acted properly by investigating this incident or asking the U.S. government for an explanation. So far we have not started refueling U.S. ships yet so I think we need to go back to the beginning and not just simply and blindly trust the U.S. government explanation and indirect information provided by them. There were too many victims so I think we need to start again from the beginning. We need to ask who the real victims of this war on terrorism are. I think the citizens of the world are its victims. Here in Japan we have disappearing pensions and disappearing records about victims of Hepatitis C contaminated blood but everything I have presented on facts and confirmable evidence. Let us talk about the vanishing black boxes, vanishing airplanes and vanishing remains. Also lots of the remains of these buildings have disappeared. Even FEMA says that prevented it from carrying out a proper investigation. We need to look at this evidence and ask ourselves what the war on terrorism really is. I can see the ministers nodding in agreement but I would like to ask Prime Minister Fukuda. Please look at me. I have heard that when you were Chief Cabinet Minister at the time you felt many strange things about these attacks. Do you not think it was strange?
Prime Minister Fukuda:
I never said I thought it was strange.
Mr. Fujita:
Prime Minister what about the origin of the war on terror and the idea of whether it is right or wrong to participate in it? Is there really a reason to participate in this war on terror? Do we really need to participate? I would also like to ask about how to really stop terrorism.
Prime Minister Fukuda:
We believe based on evidence provided to us by the U.S. government that the attacks of 911 were carried out by Al Qaeda. We need to put an end to Al Qaeda terrorism. That is why international society is united in the fight against terrorism. Here, concerning a law passed by the Democratic Party last year and based on UN resolution 16595. This is a resolution passed in response to the terrorist attacks on the U.S. So you passed the law agreeing with the UN didn't you?
Mr Fujita:
Did you confirm about the bodies and the facts behind the resolution because that is why you claim to be participating in this war on terrorism. So I believe to end terrorism we need to pass a law that actually helps the people of Afghanistan. I would like Mr. Inuzuka to talk about the law and about the fight against terrorism.
Tadashi Inuzuka:
Among the many problems raised by MP Fujita the thing we need to worry most about is that the people in Afghanistan can live in peace and without worries. That is the core of the issue of ending terrorism. Without discussing this but just operating behind the back lines by supplying oil and not thinking about the entire situation or the people involved it is nonsense to debate this law. This law should be made for peace and security in Afghanistan. Our country needs to pass a real anti-terror law.
Arthur
http://i1.tinypic.com/86e9xms.jpg
I sincerely doubt it since the VAST majority of his points are easily disproven. He scored some points simply because the other party, clealy having NEVER heard of this BS, didn't have the facts on hand to actually do so at the moment.
But, I'd be willing to bet, that if he tries this sort of thing again, they will.
Below is a transcript of testimony in the Japanese Parliament.
The Member of Parliament talking about 911 is Yukihisa Fujita from the Democratic Party of Japan.
Head of the committee:
We will now begin the first session of the defense and foreign affairs committee. We will now start discussing the special anti-terror law. .We now call on Mr. Yukihisa Fujita
Fujita standing in front of microphone:
This will be the last televised broadcast of this committee for so I would like to talk about the origin of the war on terrorism which was the attacks of 911. On September 11 of 2002 I went to a theater house for a charity concert to help build a school in Afghanistan. They chose to have the charity concert on that day as a gesture of respect for the dead. Normally 911 commemorative events are for the people who died in New York but the people who held this event decided that more innocent people died as a result of 911 in Afghanistan than in New York. So they built a grade school near where the statue of Buddha was destroyed in Bamiyan. The name of the school is "the school of hope." They also lit candles to commemorate the dead both in Afghanistan and in New York in the year 2002, one year after the attacks. So, when discussing these anti-terror laws we should ask ourselves, what was 911, what is terrorism? So today, I would like to talk about the beginning of the war on terror.
So, I would like to ask the people who call this law an anti-terror law to realize that the biggest victim of the war on terrorism has been Afghanistan so I believe helping the people of Afghanistan should be our biggest priority. I would like to ask Mr. Inuzuka about this.
Tadashi Inuzuka walking to the microphone:
As Mr. Fujita says the main purpose of this law is to provide peace and security to Afghanistan. And, as he says, the biggest sufferers have been the people of Afghanistan. Afghanistan has 1.7 times the land area of Japan and 20 some million people live there. Also, because of a drought on the Eurasian continent close to 5 million have died due to water shortages. Even now 1 million people live close to the main battlegrounds. So, the main purpose is to provide stability to those war zones so in that context what should Japan do? However, instead of providing support by providing fuel to the U.S. forces we at the Democratic Party have decided that providing water is more important. The philosophy behind our anti-terror law is to get the ruling party to help deal with this problem.
Head of the committee: Mr. Fujita
Mr. Fujita:
I would like to talk about the origins of this war on terrorism. You may recall that in November I asked you if terrorism was war or if it was a crime. And the whole start of this war on terrorism was 911. What I want to know is if this event was caused by Al Qaeda or not. So far the only thing the government has said is that we think it was caused by Al Qaeda because President Bush told us so. We have not seen any real proof that it was Al Qaeda. I would like to know why the Prime Minister thinks it was the Taliban who was responsible for 911. Committee Chief, I want to ask the Prime Minister because he was chief cabinet officer at the time.
Prime Minister Fukuda:
Since the attacks we have communicated with the U.S. government and other governments at different levels and exchanged information. According to secret information obtained by our government and reports put together by foreign governments the 911 attacks were carried out by the international terrorist organization known as Al Qaeda.
Mr. Fujita:
So, you are talking about both secret and disclosed information. My question is has the Japanese government carried out its own investigation using the police and other resources? It is a crime so surely an investigation needs to be carried out. When a Japanese journalist was shot in Myanmar you carried out an investigation. In the same way over 20 Japanese people died on 911 so surely the government carried out its own investigation and decided that Al Qaeda was responsible. So, what kind of investigation did you carry out? At the time you were Chief Cabinet Secretary so surely you would know better than anybody so I want to ask you about your investigation.
Prime Minister Fukuda:
After the 911 attacks the National Police Agency sent an emergency anti-terror team to New York. They met with U.S. government officials and gathered information about missing Japanese.
Mr. Fujita:
So you are saying over 20 people died as a result of a crime and most of those people were working in New York. Also there were some Japanese who died in the four airplanes that were hijacked. I would like to know exactly how many people died in the buildings and how many died in the airplanes. I also want to know how you confirmed this. I would like the Foreign Minister to answer for me.
Foreign Minister Masahiko Komura standing at right in front of microphone:
We found the bodies of over a dozen Japanese following the simultaneous terror attacks carried out on September 11 2001. We were also informed about the death of 11 more people by the U.S. authorities. In total 24 Japanese died in those attacks. Of those 2 were in the airplanes.
Mr. Fujita:
I would like to ask what flights the two Japanese who died in the airplanes were on and how you determined who they were. If the foreign minister does not know it is OK to get a bureaucrat to answer:
Foreign Ministry division chief Ryoji Tanizaki:
Since this a question of fact, I will answer. As the Foreign Minister said, of the 24 people who died two were on the airplanes. One of them was on United Flight 93 and the other was on American airlines flight 11.As for how we know this, well I do not have the information in front of me but we were told by U.S. authorities and, in general, they use DNA testing. So we believe that is how we know about those two people.
Mr. Fujita:
So you are saying you do not know because you do not have the documents. Also, you say you believe there was DNA testing but you do not know. So what I want to say today is that this was a crime and crimes are supposed to be investigated. So the government needs to inform the victims families of the results of their investigation. Also, instead of just observing the anniversary of 911 every year you must be gathering information and reacting to it. So, during the past six years have you been supplying the families of the deceased with information? I would like to ask the Foreign Minister to answer.
Foreign Minister Masahiko Komura:
So you do not want to ask any more about how we confirmed the deaths of Japanese but want to know about reports to the victims families? We provided the families with information about the bodies and about compensation funds. Also, for the 13 Japanese whose remains we found, we helped the families deal with the bodies. We also financial support visits to the World Trade Center site for the families on every anniversary.
Mr. Fujita:
Since I do not have much time I would like to ask about the suspicious information being uncovered and the doubts people world wide are having about the events of 911. Many of these doubters are very influential people. In such circumstances I believe the Japanese government, which claims the attacks were carried out by Al Qaeda, should be providing the victims families with this new information. In that context I would like to ask several questions.
First of all I would like to get all members of the committee to look at this panel and look at the pictures I have provided you with. This is concrete evidence in the form of photographs and other types of information. The first photograph has computer graphics attached to show how large the plane that hit the Pentagon was. A 757 is quite a large airplane with a width of 38 meters. So as you can see even though such a large plane hit the pentagon there is only a hole that is too small for the airplane. This is a photograph taken of firemen at work and you can also see there is no damage of the sort an airplane that large should make. I would also like you to look at the lawn in front and notice that there are no airplane parts on it. Let us now look at the third picture, which is also of the pentagon taken from a U.S. TV news report has captions that show the roof of the Pentagon is still intact. Again even though a huge airplane is supposed to have hit, there is not enough corresponding damage. Now let us move to the next photograph. Here is a photograph of a hole, as Minister Komura knows the Pentagon is a very strong building with many walls. Yet the airplane has pierced them. But as you know, airplanes are made of the lightest possible material. An airplane made of such light material could not make a hole like that. Next I would like to show a photograph of how the airplane hit the building. The airplane made a U-turn, avoiding the Defense Secretary's office and hitting the only part of the Pentagon that had been specially reinforced to withstand a bomb attack.
Also, in the middle of page five we have a comment from a U.S. airforce official. He says I have flown the two types of airplane used on 911 and I cannot believe it would be possible for someone who is flying one for the first time to be able to carry out such a maneuver. Also, as you know, they have not recovered the flight recorders from most of these 4 airplanes. Also, there were more than 80 security cameras at the Pentagon but they have refused to release almost all of the footage. In any case, as you have just seen there is no picture of the airplane or of its wreckage in any of these photographs. It is very strange that no such pictures have been shown to us.
As you know Japan's self-defense forces have their headquarters in Ichigaya. Can you imagine if an airplane hit a major city, if an hour and a half after an airplane hit New York that an airplane could hit the Pentagon? In such a situation how could our allies allow such an attack to take place. I would like the Defense Minister to answer this.
Defense Minister Fuyushiba Ishiba:
I have not prepared so I will have to answer ad-lib. If such a situation took place then the airforce would send fighters up to shoot down any airplanes. This is what happened with an attack on the German constitutional court. In the case of Japan our reaction would depend on what kind of airplane it was, who was flying it and what their purpose was. However, according to our laws it might be hard to order an airplane to be shot down just because it was flying at a low level. We would probably have self-defense forces fly with it and ask for a cabinet decision. Since an airplane would have many people on board we would have do discuss what to do. This happened a long time ago but a Cesna airplane was flown into the house of a person called Yoshio Kodama. There was also an All Japan Airways flight bound for Hakodate that was hijacked and had the pilot killed. It would be best if such a thing never happened but we need to prepare new laws for such situations and discuss them in Parliament.
Mr. Fujita:
Since we are running out of time I would like to present a new piece of evidence. Please look at this panel. The first picture is one you see often of the two towers that were hit by hijacked airplanes. I could understand if this happened right after the airplanes hit but here we can see large piece of material flying a large distance through the air. Some flew 150 meters. You can objects flying in this picture as if there was an explosion. Here is a picture I took from a book. This lets you see how far the objects flew. The third picture is of a fireman who was involved in the rescue talking about a series of explosions in the building that sounded like a professional demolition. We cannot present video today so I have written a translation of what the fireman said. Here his is saying "it went boom boom boom like explosions were going off."
Here is something said by a Japanese research team of officials from the fire department and the construction ministry. The interviewed a Japanese survivor who said that while she was fleeing there were explosions. This testimony appears in a report prepared with the aid of the construction ministry and the fire department. Now I would like you to see the following picture. Normally it is said that the twin towers collapsed because they were hit by airplanes. However, one block away from the twin towers is building number 7. It can be seen in the following map a block away from the WTC. This building collapsed 7 hours after the WTC buildings were attacked. If I could show you a video it would be easy to understand but take a look at this photograph. This is a 47 story building that fell in this manner (He drops and object to demonstrate). The building falls in five or six seconds. It is about the same speed as an object would fall in a vacuum. This building falls like something you would see in a Kabuki show. Also if falls while keeping its shape. Remember it was not hit by an airplane. You have to ask yourself if a building could fall in that manner due to a fire after 7 hours. Here we have a copy of the 911 commission report. This is a report put out by the U.S. government in July of 2004 but this report does not mention the collapse of the building I just described. It is not mentioned at all in here (he waves the book). FEMA also issued a report but they also fail to mention this building. Many people believe, especially after seeing the story about building number 7, that something is strange. Since this is an incident where many people died people think is should be investigated.
We are running out of time but I would also like to mention the put options. Just before the 911 attacks, ie on September 6th, 7th and 8th there were put options put out on the stocks of the two airlines United and American that were hit by hijackers. There were also put options on Merril Lynch, one of the biggest WTC tenants. In other words somebody had insider information and made a fortune selling put options of these stocks. The head of Germany's Bundesbank at the time, who is equivalent to the Governor of the Bank of Japan, said there are lots of facts to prove the people involved in the terror attacks profited from insider information. He said there was lots of suspicious trading involving financial companies etc prior to the attacks. The had of the Bundesbank was willing to say this much. I would like to ask the Finance Minster about these put options. Did the government of Japan know about this, and what do you think about this? I would like to ask Finance Minister Nukaga about this.
Finance Minister Fukushiro Nukaga:
I was in Burkina Fasso in Africa when I heard about this incident. I decided to fly immediately to the U.S. but when I got to Paris I was told there were no flights to America. So I only heard what was reported later about the facts. I know there have been reports about the points you raise. So we made it obligatory that people provide ID for securities transactions and for suspicious transactions to be reported and we made it a crime to provide money to terrorist organizations. We believe the international financial system should not be abused. In any case, terrorism is a horrible thing and must be condemned. This type of terrorism cannot be stopped by one country but needs to be stopped by international society.
Mr. Fujita:
I would like to ask finance specialist Mr. Asao to tell me about put options. A group of people with large amounts of money, clear insider information and financial expertise would have been necessary for such a thing to take place. Could a few terrorists in Afghanistand and Pakistan carry out such a sophisticated and large scale set of transactions? I would like to ask Mr. Asao to respond.
Keiichiro Asao:
I understand put options are a deal to sell stocks at a fixed price. In this case somebody must have had insider information to carry out such transactions because nobody could normally predict these airlines would have their planes hijacked. So, I believe this was certainly a case of insider trading.
Mr. Fujita:
Prime Minister, you were Chief Cabinet Secretary at the time and as somebody has already noted, this was an incident of the sort that humanity had never previously experienced. Also, there appears to be a lot more information about this incident coming out now than came out in the months after the attacks. Now that we are an internet and visual society, this information is being made public so if we look at the situation now, the whole starting point for these two laws , the start of the war on terror itself, as you have seen from the information I have presented, has not been properly investigated or analyzed. So I do not believe the government has acted properly by investigating this incident or asking the U.S. government for an explanation. So far we have not started refueling U.S. ships yet so I think we need to go back to the beginning and not just simply and blindly trust the U.S. government explanation and indirect information provided by them. There were too many victims so I think we need to start again from the beginning. We need to ask who the real victims of this war on terrorism are. I think the citizens of the world are its victims. Here in Japan we have disappearing pensions and disappearing records about victims of Hepatitis C contaminated blood but everything I have presented on facts and confirmable evidence. Let us talk about the vanishing black boxes, vanishing airplanes and vanishing remains. Also lots of the remains of these buildings have disappeared. Even FEMA says that prevented it from carrying out a proper investigation. We need to look at this evidence and ask ourselves what the war on terrorism really is. I can see the ministers nodding in agreement but I would like to ask Prime Minister Fukuda. Please look at me. I have heard that when you were Chief Cabinet Minister at the time you felt many strange things about these attacks. Do you not think it was strange?
Prime Minister Fukuda:
I never said I thought it was strange.
Mr. Fujita:
Prime Minister what about the origin of the war on terror and the idea of whether it is right or wrong to participate in it? Is there really a reason to participate in this war on terror? Do we really need to participate? I would also like to ask about how to really stop terrorism.
Prime Minister Fukuda:
We believe based on evidence provided to us by the U.S. government that the attacks of 911 were carried out by Al Qaeda. We need to put an end to Al Qaeda terrorism. That is why international society is united in the fight against terrorism. Here, concerning a law passed by the Democratic Party last year and based on UN resolution 16595. This is a resolution passed in response to the terrorist attacks on the U.S. So you passed the law agreeing with the UN didn't you?
Mr Fujita:
Did you confirm about the bodies and the facts behind the resolution because that is why you claim to be participating in this war on terrorism. So I believe to end terrorism we need to pass a law that actually helps the people of Afghanistan. I would like Mr. Inuzuka to talk about the law and about the fight against terrorism.
Tadashi Inuzuka:
Among the many problems raised by MP Fujita the thing we need to worry most about is that the people in Afghanistan can live in peace and without worries. That is the core of the issue of ending terrorism. Without discussing this but just operating behind the back lines by supplying oil and not thinking about the entire situation or the people involved it is nonsense to debate this law. This law should be made for peace and security in Afghanistan. Our country needs to pass a real anti-terror law.
Arthur
QUOTE (adoucette+Jan 22 2008, 03:51 PM)
But that's my point Frank.
Hamilton has an Urban Area Population of ~ 650,000 people.
But a Truther meeting only brings out ~ 50 or so???
That's pretty PATHETIC for any MOVEMENT that claims its GROWING.
As to the lack of debate, I'd say that is to be expected.
The majority of CTers who come here are pretty much complete idiots as to the science involved. Its only a relative few who can actually debate the issue with any level of competence.
Confronted with an actual scientist who has actually read the NIST report and studied the issues and can also articulate them, I'd not expect many to attempt to challenge you to an open debate.
Arthur
adoucette
I actually dated one, showed her what I had done, she researched some more, Called up an engineer and asked him some questions and finally married the engineer.
If I had only not convinced her to look into it more or the fun we could have had just living our lives.
Truthers are out there, no doubt about it however the numbers are not what they once were.
PS. no rotation no collapse, that is how the beams disconnect, I believe.
Hamilton has an Urban Area Population of ~ 650,000 people.
But a Truther meeting only brings out ~ 50 or so???
That's pretty PATHETIC for any MOVEMENT that claims its GROWING.
As to the lack of debate, I'd say that is to be expected.
The majority of CTers who come here are pretty much complete idiots as to the science involved. Its only a relative few who can actually debate the issue with any level of competence.
Confronted with an actual scientist who has actually read the NIST report and studied the issues and can also articulate them, I'd not expect many to attempt to challenge you to an open debate.
Arthur
adoucette
I actually dated one, showed her what I had done, she researched some more, Called up an engineer and asked him some questions and finally married the engineer.
If I had only not convinced her to look into it more or the fun we could have had just living our lives.
Truthers are out there, no doubt about it however the numbers are not what they once were.
PS. no rotation no collapse, that is how the beams disconnect, I believe.
QUOTE (adoucette+Jan 22 2008, 04:31 PM)
I linked to the source, so I'm curious, on such an obviously IMPORTANT ISSUE, what's keeping you?
Arthur
looks like the youtube clip was a CNN clip. is it less valid when it is reposted to youtube, then when it was originally broadcast?
whatever. it was 2006. it passed how it passed.
i admit to being too quick on the draw with that one. when following patterns, sometimes things like this are expected from the likes of these old boys.
i like it einsteen. the still before the storm.
what an exciting time to be (half, *hack, hack*) alive.
QUOTE (einsteen+Jan 22 2008, 08:39 AM)
what's this...?
This is a blown-up portion of the Scott Myers video showing the impact on WTC2. The view is from the east. I've equalized the color, which maps the dynamic range of channel intensities to full scale which, in this case, helps bring out the moire pattern on the wall.
There are 10 frames, with the impact occurring (I'm pretty sure) in the second frame. The sequence continues until flame breeches the east wall. The moire distorts more and more with each successive frame, corresponding to deformation in the wall and movement of the building. Where the breech occurs, cladding is about to be blown off, so the distortion is exaggerated.
NIST used this video and the moire to obtain displacement, translational and torsional frequencies. I found these 10 frames to be especially interesting because the deformation can be tracked across the face. Later, the fireball affords a display of refractive error in imaging the moires.
This is a blown-up portion of the Scott Myers video showing the impact on WTC2. The view is from the east. I've equalized the color, which maps the dynamic range of channel intensities to full scale which, in this case, helps bring out the moire pattern on the wall.
There are 10 frames, with the impact occurring (I'm pretty sure) in the second frame. The sequence continues until flame breeches the east wall. The moire distorts more and more with each successive frame, corresponding to deformation in the wall and movement of the building. Where the breech occurs, cladding is about to be blown off, so the distortion is exaggerated.
NIST used this video and the moire to obtain displacement, translational and torsional frequencies. I found these 10 frames to be especially interesting because the deformation can be tracked across the face. Later, the fireball affords a display of refractive error in imaging the moires.
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Jan 22 2008, 12:50 AM)
But just using the C449 data alone, the poorer hypothesis is still substantially disconfirmed, despite having a deltaT parameter to help it along:
Very interesting. Do you try various delta T values or does the program run through a range? What was the difference between optimal delta T values for the two columns?
The DVD came. Pretty cool. Really crystal clear, and many interesting scenes, all within the first 24 hours (hence the title). That night, on the rubble pile, there's a small explosion.
Very interesting. Do you try various delta T values or does the program run through a range? What was the difference between optimal delta T values for the two columns?
The DVD came. Pretty cool. Really crystal clear, and many interesting scenes, all within the first 24 hours (hence the title). That night, on the rubble pile, there's a small explosion.
QUOTE (adoucette+Jan 22 2008, 01:54 PM)
Nope, unfair to Miles as Britney is so huge they refer to the "Britney Economy".
I think the fairest thing is to say that most people do not give it much thought. There's also a huge segment that doesn't want to give it much thought.
I think the fairest thing is to say that most people do not give it much thought. There's also a huge segment that doesn't want to give it much thought.
QUOTE (einsteen+Jan 22 2008, 02:44 AM)
I was just wondering, is it possible to proof mathematically that collapse initiation is possible ?
Mathematical proofs start from some axioms and proceed QED style.
For WTC 1, the more energy limited case, we know that the south wall buckled, followed shortly by the east and west walls; this from NIST. OneWhiteEye noticed the buckling of the north wall from the Etienne Sauret video. With all walls buckled, the entire weight of the upper portion was transferred vi the hat truss to the surviving core columns. Again from NIST, it is possible to estimate the resulting dynamic DCR of this sudden load of long duration. This number is far in excess of the surviving core columns to elastically absorb. Core columns failed.
Solid argument, but not one I would call a mathematical proof.
Mathematical proofs start from some axioms and proceed QED style.
For WTC 1, the more energy limited case, we know that the south wall buckled, followed shortly by the east and west walls; this from NIST. OneWhiteEye noticed the buckling of the north wall from the Etienne Sauret video. With all walls buckled, the entire weight of the upper portion was transferred vi the hat truss to the surviving core columns. Again from NIST, it is possible to estimate the resulting dynamic DCR of this sudden load of long duration. This number is far in excess of the surviving core columns to elastically absorb. Core columns failed.
Solid argument, but not one I would call a mathematical proof.
QUOTE (OneWhiteEye+Jan 22 2008, 11:05 AM)
Do you try various delta T values or does the program run through a range?
What was the difference between optimal delta T values for the two columns?
I propose two starting values and the program uses these to find a better value.
C447: -0.0101 seconds
C449: -0.0074 seconds
What was the difference between optimal delta T values for the two columns?
I propose two starting values and the program uses these to find a better value.
C447: -0.0101 seconds
C449: -0.0074 seconds
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Jan 22 2008, 06:35 PM)
...the buckling of the north wall...
There's much to be gleaned, both qualitative and quantitative. I'm still puzzling over the best way to produce numeric data on deformation, buckling and so forth.
The WTC2 closeup video that einsteen linked is even better for this purpose. You can watch propagation of buckling across and up the north wall, followed by the folding of the corner.
There's much to be gleaned, both qualitative and quantitative. I'm still puzzling over the best way to produce numeric data on deformation, buckling and so forth.
The WTC2 closeup video that einsteen linked is even better for this purpose. You can watch propagation of buckling across and up the north wall, followed by the folding of the corner.
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Jan 22 2008, 06:43 PM)
I propose two starting values and the program uses these to find a better value.
C447: -0.0101 seconds
C449: -0.0074 seconds
Three milliseconds difference between, very close. Both of these values are relative to the... t0 for the optimum solution of the best of all fits?
C447: -0.0101 seconds
C449: -0.0074 seconds
Three milliseconds difference between, very close. Both of these values are relative to the... t0 for the optimum solution of the best of all fits?
QUOTE (OneWhiteEye+Jan 22 2008, 11:50 AM)
Both of these values are relative to the...
The initial estimate of t0 is Frank Greening's. This is a delta relative to a best fit to his data, which begins at some t=0. It is simply a method of selecting a 'zero time' about 4 seconds along in your data. The program then estimates a deltaT to obtain a local minimum fit.
The initial estimate of t0 is Frank Greening's. This is a delta relative to a best fit to his data, which begins at some t=0. It is simply a method of selecting a 'zero time' about 4 seconds along in your data. The program then estimates a deltaT to obtain a local minimum fit.
QUOTE (einsteen+Jan 22 2008, 11:52 AM)
Arthur, maybe it is the so-called silence before the storm ?
No, it was a typical TROOTHER ambush.
As OWE pointed out, most people have never heard most of this BS and so when someone presents them with this:
There aren't that many who would KNOW that this has all been DEBUNKED.
But it has.
http://undicisettembre.blogspot.com/2007/1...-composite.html
See composite of Pentagon here:
http://bp0.blogger.com/_ebKDfm0h1oI/R26MYQ...onedannouw0.jpg
The point though is that ambushes are not a workable long term strategy.
What will Fujita do for an encore?
Holograms?
Mini-Nukes?
Pyroclastic Flows?
Arthur
No, it was a typical TROOTHER ambush.
As OWE pointed out, most people have never heard most of this BS and so when someone presents them with this:
QUOTE
The first photograph has computer graphics attached to show how large the plane that hit the Pentagon was. A 757 is quite a large airplane with a width of 38 meters. So as you can see even though such a large plane hit the pentagon there is only a hole that is too small for the airplane. This is a photograph taken of firemen at work and you can also see there is no damage of the sort an airplane that large should make. I would also like you to look at the lawn in front and notice that there are no airplane parts on it.
There aren't that many who would KNOW that this has all been DEBUNKED.
But it has.
http://undicisettembre.blogspot.com/2007/1...-composite.html
See composite of Pentagon here:
http://bp0.blogger.com/_ebKDfm0h1oI/R26MYQ...onedannouw0.jpg
The point though is that ambushes are not a workable long term strategy.
What will Fujita do for an encore?
Holograms?
Mini-Nukes?
Pyroclastic Flows?
Arthur
This is the aforementioned perimeter buckling, north wall of WTC2. It's a big GIF, over 3 megs. (false color; equalized)
Edit: I should also probably mention there is a problem with duplicated frames in the dump of this video. I don't know if it's the conversion or in the source video (makes you wonder what's up if it is), but I haven't bothered to clean it up yet. Some may be in the GIF above.
Edit: I should also probably mention there is a problem with duplicated frames in the dump of this video. I don't know if it's the conversion or in the source video (makes you wonder what's up if it is), but I haven't bothered to clean it up yet. Some may be in the GIF above.
This is an oldy, but still a Twoofer favorite:
My numbers, obviously, are going up even as I type.
QUOTE (newton+)
the actor, 'fatty' bin laden, admitted it in the made for TV cave video, but the real bin laden did not.
But read this:
http://www.muckrakerreport.com/id372.html
Guess another Twoofer "talking point" goes down the drain.
Arthur
But read this:
http://www.muckrakerreport.com/id372.html
Guess another Twoofer "talking point" goes down the drain.
Arthur
QUOTE (OneWhiteEye+Jan 22 2008, 01:23 PM)
This is the aforementioned perimeter buckling, north wall of WTC2.
WTC 2 or WTC 1?
Whichever, it is clear that the lower portion buckles out whilst the upper portion pivots in.
WTC 2 or WTC 1?
Whichever, it is clear that the lower portion buckles out whilst the upper portion pivots in.
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Jan 22 2008, 09:29 PM)
WTC 2 or WTC 1?
Whichever, it is clear that the lower portion buckles out whilst the upper portion pivots in.
WTC2, the west half of the north wall.
Whichever, it is clear that the lower portion buckles out whilst the upper portion pivots in.
WTC2, the west half of the north wall.
Here's the same thing for east side of the north wall of WTC1.
http://i29.tinypic.com/23i9ssx.gif (even bigger; > 4MB)
http://i29.tinypic.com/23i9ssx.gif (even bigger; > 4MB)
here, arthurs:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_quer...1&search=Search
131, 000 hits, many of which have more than a million views.
and that's just "9/11" aas the search term. never mind 'conspiracy, 'wtc7', etc.
didn't see many hot wheel videos.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_quer...s&search=Search
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_quer...1&search=Search
131, 000 hits, many of which have more than a million views.
and that's just "9/11" aas the search term. never mind 'conspiracy, 'wtc7', etc.
didn't see many hot wheel videos.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_quer...s&search=Search
WOW, this usless topic made it to 605 pages!!!
AND WHAT IS THIS LITTLE EXPLOSION "BELOW" ANY STRESS OF THE EXPLOSION?
AND WHAT IS THIS LITTLE EXPLOSION "BELOW" ANY STRESS OF THE EXPLOSION?
QUOTE (OneWhiteEye+Jan 22 2008, 05:50 PM)
This is a blown-up portion of the Scott Myers video showing the impact on WTC2. The view is from the east. I've equalized the color, which maps the dynamic range of channel intensities to full scale which, in this case, helps bring out the moire pattern on the wall.
There are 10 frames, with the impact occurring (I'm pretty sure) in the second frame. The sequence continues until flame breeches the east wall. The moire distorts more and more with each successive frame, corresponding to deformation in the wall and movement of the building. Where the breech occurs, cladding is about to be blown off, so the distortion is exaggerated.
NIST used this video and the moire to obtain displacement, translational and torsional frequencies. I found these 10 frames to be especially interesting because the deformation can be tracked across the face. Later, the fireball affords a display of refractive error in imaging the moires.
What a great idea to use that, the information is everywhere. I made those patterns on my old MSX computer (256x192 pixels)...
There are 10 frames, with the impact occurring (I'm pretty sure) in the second frame. The sequence continues until flame breeches the east wall. The moire distorts more and more with each successive frame, corresponding to deformation in the wall and movement of the building. Where the breech occurs, cladding is about to be blown off, so the distortion is exaggerated.
NIST used this video and the moire to obtain displacement, translational and torsional frequencies. I found these 10 frames to be especially interesting because the deformation can be tracked across the face. Later, the fireball affords a display of refractive error in imaging the moires.
What a great idea to use that, the information is everywhere. I made those patterns on my old MSX computer (256x192 pixels)...
QUOTE (OneWhiteEye+Jan 22 2008, 08:23 PM)
This is the aforementioned perimeter buckling, north wall of WTC2. It's a big GIF, over 3 megs. (false color; equalized)
Edit: I should also probably mention there is a problem with duplicated frames in the dump of this video. I don't know if it's the conversion or in the source video (makes you wonder what's up if it is), but I haven't bothered to clean it up yet. Some may be in the GIF above.
great animation. Some videos contain duplicate frames because of conversion from a lower to a higher framerate, then they are copied from the last one, but it could also be something else.
Edit: I should also probably mention there is a problem with duplicated frames in the dump of this video. I don't know if it's the conversion or in the source video (makes you wonder what's up if it is), but I haven't bothered to clean it up yet. Some may be in the GIF above.
great animation. Some videos contain duplicate frames because of conversion from a lower to a higher framerate, then they are copied from the last one, but it could also be something else.
QUOTE (newton+Jan 23 2008, 12:17 AM)
here, arthurs:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_quer...1&search=Search
131, 000 hits, many of which have more than a million views.
and that's just "9/11" aas the search term. never mind 'conspiracy, 'wtc7', etc.
didn't see many hot wheel videos.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_quer...s&search=Search
But viewing one of these doesn't equte you with being a CT'er.
Look at the views on our little corner of the 9-11 world, the VIEWS far far exceed the number of actual people involved in the debate.
You need some EVIDENCE to support your case that the movement is GROWING.
Got any?
Arthur
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_quer...1&search=Search
131, 000 hits, many of which have more than a million views.
and that's just "9/11" aas the search term. never mind 'conspiracy, 'wtc7', etc.
didn't see many hot wheel videos.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_quer...s&search=Search
But viewing one of these doesn't equte you with being a CT'er.
Look at the views on our little corner of the 9-11 world, the VIEWS far far exceed the number of actual people involved in the debate.
You need some EVIDENCE to support your case that the movement is GROWING.
Got any?
Arthur
QUOTE (OneWhiteEye+Jan 22 2008, 05:07 PM)
Here's the same thing for east side of the north wall of WTC1.
http://i29.tinypic.com/23i9ssx.gif (even bigger; > 4MB)
Very interesting. Thanks!
http://i29.tinypic.com/23i9ssx.gif (even bigger; > 4MB)
Very interesting. Thanks!
QUOTE (adoucette+Jan 23 2008, 04:07 PM)
But viewing one of these doesn't equte you with being a CT'er.
Look at the views on our little corner of the 9-11 world, the VIEWS far far exceed the number of actual people involved in the debate.
You need some EVIDENCE to support your case that the movement is GROWING.
Got any?
Arthur
what would be the point?
you ignore evidence you don't like.
or you 'debunk' it, meaning, you put your own spin on the meaning of it.
i'm an eyewitness to it, dude.
same old, same old, arthurs.
Look at the views on our little corner of the 9-11 world, the VIEWS far far exceed the number of actual people involved in the debate.
You need some EVIDENCE to support your case that the movement is GROWING.
Got any?
Arthur
what would be the point?
you ignore evidence you don't like.
or you 'debunk' it, meaning, you put your own spin on the meaning of it.
i'm an eyewitness to it, dude.
same old, same old, arthurs.
What would be the POINT of EVIDENCE to support your case?
True TWOOFER logic in action.
Whenever this dodge is used the translation is invariably, "I have NO evidence"
Arthur
True TWOOFER logic in action.
Whenever this dodge is used the translation is invariably, "I have NO evidence"
Arthur
void
The south tower's tilt finally reaches about 26.8 degrees before it becomes covered by the debris cloud if I look at that last video.
Einsteen:
I think you finally killed this thread, way to go!
It was only hanging by a thread anyway......
I think you finally killed this thread, way to go!
It was only hanging by a thread anyway......
QUOTE (NEU-FONZE+Jan 28 2008, 02:04 AM)
Einsteen:
I think you finally killed this thread, way to go!
It was only hanging by a thread anyway......
It was only a matter of time eventually everything comes to an end.
I think you finally killed this thread, way to go!
It was only hanging by a thread anyway......
It was only a matter of time eventually everything comes to an end.
This thread will never stop...
The Thread is dead.
Long live the thread.
Long live the thread.
Wait, before you all go...
I have a few questions:
1.) Was there any significant aluminum combustion on impact?
2.) What caused the 66 smoke puffs/pressure pulses in WTC2?
3.) Was there a WTC arson investigation?
Max
I have a few questions:
1.) Was there any significant aluminum combustion on impact?
2.) What caused the 66 smoke puffs/pressure pulses in WTC2?
3.) Was there a WTC arson investigation?
Max
QUOTE (Max Photon+Jan 28 2008, 03:46 PM)
Wait, before you all go...
I have a few questions:
1.) Was there any significant aluminum combustion on impact?
2.) What caused the 66 smoke puffs/pressure pulses in WTC2?
3.) Was there a WTC arson investigation?
Max
1.) There had to have been some Max not only with oxygen and oxidants but with nitrogen that would have been abundant in the air in a reducing environment.
2.) More than likely the collapse front either by Direct pressure or by igniting explosive gas combinations in the towers, with carbons and combustible metals certainly no high explosives.
3.) I do not believe so however what would it have accomplished, naturally you would have found nitrocellulose residue, as well as cordites sulfur residue, it would be like walking into an explosive factory and finding explosives.
There is almost no end to the chemical reactions and Chemical reactions trace elements that would have been produced naturally.
PS. if the official story it is arson, only the Accelerates are delivered by planes crashing into the buildings.
There is just no evidence of anything UN natural that I can see in the fires or the collapses, that is what would have to be proved to prove a crime was committed, and the evidence is simply not there.
It seems that the whole 9/11 truth movement is just a group of people looking for the easy answers Max, the easiest answer is that some one blew the buildings up or demolished them on purpose, it is unsettling for people to believe that the buildings could just collapse, and fail as they did, However it does appear to be the truth.
I have a few questions:
1.) Was there any significant aluminum combustion on impact?
2.) What caused the 66 smoke puffs/pressure pulses in WTC2?
3.) Was there a WTC arson investigation?
Max
1.) There had to have been some Max not only with oxygen and oxidants but with nitrogen that would have been abundant in the air in a reducing environment.
2.) More than likely the collapse front either by Direct pressure or by igniting explosive gas combinations in the towers, with carbons and combustible metals certainly no high explosives.
3.) I do not believe so however what would it have accomplished, naturally you would have found nitrocellulose residue, as well as cordites sulfur residue, it would be like walking into an explosive factory and finding explosives.
There is almost no end to the chemical reactions and Chemical reactions trace elements that would have been produced naturally.
PS. if the official story it is arson, only the Accelerates are delivered by planes crashing into the buildings.
There is just no evidence of anything UN natural that I can see in the fires or the collapses, that is what would have to be proved to prove a crime was committed, and the evidence is simply not there.
It seems that the whole 9/11 truth movement is just a group of people looking for the easy answers Max, the easiest answer is that some one blew the buildings up or demolished them on purpose, it is unsettling for people to believe that the buildings could just collapse, and fail as they did, However it does appear to be the truth.
QUOTE (einsteen+Jan 28 2008, 05:39 AM)
This thread will never stop...
Since it's been almost 52 weeks since this particular incarnation of the thread was spawned, let's have a look at some stats. The number of posts by week from inception to the post before this one is:
http://i26.tinypic.com/55m6v7.jpg
Doesn't look too good. The last week has only 10 posts. The attention is elsewhere. I suppose Survivor is more popular than C-Span coverage of the Slide Rule Olympics, too.
Still, the thread has gotten a lot of views during this lull, and the week is not over yet.
Since it's been almost 52 weeks since this particular incarnation of the thread was spawned, let's have a look at some stats. The number of posts by week from inception to the post before this one is:
http://i26.tinypic.com/55m6v7.jpg
Doesn't look too good. The last week has only 10 posts. The attention is elsewhere. I suppose Survivor is more popular than C-Span coverage of the Slide Rule Olympics, too.
Still, the thread has gotten a lot of views during this lull, and the week is not over yet.
I'll do my part to bump the numbers. Here's the who's who, names and numbers of posts:
ScottS,1
p_pnk,1
ap-bot,1
einstienear,1
Gorgeous,1
Gehn,1
Robert W. Hawkins,1
tikay,1
Comte de Fénix,1
Alpha,1
rpenner,1
hawksecho,1
who?what?me?,1
hereward,1
gnik_isrever,1
Cubbie,1
t0m,1
medicine_freak,1
Why Not,1
MMC,1
sirfiroth,1
Madkite,1
kaneda,1
TenGig,1
mggb2001,1
deadbeat,1
scimethod,1
Barkley,1
TaddPeake,1
Raphie Frank,1
Your fellow human (yfh),1
Grasshopper,2
ASSBAG,2
Al Kyda,2
daehaus,2
MDT,2
occidental,2
tweaker,2
Miragememories,2
John A,2
Solid State Universe,2
who,2
chris lz,2
Farsight,2
ChE_n_PhysicsGuy,2
myself,2
debbie77,2
ArchAngel,3
beijingyankees,3
Precursor562,3
Soultechs,3
beijingyankee,4
TBX,5
Zarabtul,5
blue74,5
rethinker,6
SYLVESTER1592,6
PuckSR,6
beck.charles_m,6
NoCleverName,7
hardlines,7
555Joshua,8
Skeptik,9
GeneSplicer,10
Masked Marauder,10
Oneismany,10
Agent_X,11
Bryn Richards,11
NIST,11
criticalthinker,12
newtonnjd,12
atmosphere,19
cerberus,19
memeticverb,21
beijingyank,23
Hambone,23
eigenvalue,24
Jay38,31
zoktoberfest,33
carterelliott,35
stundie,37
AceBaker,38
Al Khwarizmi - step-by-step,39
forthetrees,44
Common Sense,46
frater plecticus,63
Alan (ex elevator man),70
3bodyproblem,80
kahlmyishmael,82
roves shill,83
FactCheck,93
Daru,104
Max Photon,106
RealityCheck,108
Malmoesoldier,117
Pierre-Normand,124
quicknthedead,137
Palpatane,155
Trippy,217
lozenge124,217
metamars,218
Capracus,219
shagster,271
reasonwhy,349
NEU-FONZE,373
newton,377
OneWhiteEye,386
Chainsaw,421
Grumpy,482
einsteen,499
wcelliott,539
adoucette,1118
David B. Benson,1406
CODE
ScottS,1
p_pnk,1
ap-bot,1
einstienear,1
Gorgeous,1
Gehn,1
Robert W. Hawkins,1
tikay,1
Comte de Fénix,1
Alpha,1
rpenner,1
hawksecho,1
who?what?me?,1
hereward,1
gnik_isrever,1
Cubbie,1
t0m,1
medicine_freak,1
Why Not,1
MMC,1
sirfiroth,1
Madkite,1
kaneda,1
TenGig,1
mggb2001,1
deadbeat,1
scimethod,1
Barkley,1
TaddPeake,1
Raphie Frank,1
Your fellow human (yfh),1
Grasshopper,2
ASSBAG,2
Al Kyda,2
daehaus,2
MDT,2
occidental,2
tweaker,2
Miragememories,2
John A,2
Solid State Universe,2
who,2
chris lz,2
Farsight,2
ChE_n_PhysicsGuy,2
myself,2
debbie77,2
ArchAngel,3
beijingyankees,3
Precursor562,3
Soultechs,3
beijingyankee,4
TBX,5
Zarabtul,5
blue74,5
rethinker,6
SYLVESTER1592,6
PuckSR,6
beck.charles_m,6
NoCleverName,7
hardlines,7
555Joshua,8
Skeptik,9
GeneSplicer,10
Masked Marauder,10
Oneismany,10
Agent_X,11
Bryn Richards,11
NIST,11
criticalthinker,12
newtonnjd,12
atmosphere,19
cerberus,19
memeticverb,21
beijingyank,23
Hambone,23
eigenvalue,24
Jay38,31
zoktoberfest,33
carterelliott,35
stundie,37
AceBaker,38
Al Khwarizmi - step-by-step,39
forthetrees,44
Common Sense,46
frater plecticus,63
Alan (ex elevator man),70
3bodyproblem,80
kahlmyishmael,82
roves shill,83
FactCheck,93
Daru,104
Max Photon,106
RealityCheck,108
Malmoesoldier,117
Pierre-Normand,124
quicknthedead,137
Palpatane,155
Trippy,217
lozenge124,217
metamars,218
Capracus,219
shagster,271
reasonwhy,349
NEU-FONZE,373
newton,377
OneWhiteEye,386
Chainsaw,421
Grumpy,482
einsteen,499
wcelliott,539
adoucette,1118
David B. Benson,1406
My numbers, obviously, are going up even as I type.
In the month-by-month breakdown, January doesn't look so bad:
http://i25.tinypic.com/eio3yq.png
Remember, January is month number 1 so, even though it's this past month, it's first on the graph.
http://i25.tinypic.com/eio3yq.png
Remember, January is month number 1 so, even though it's this past month, it's first on the graph.
Here's the breakdown by day:
http://i31.tinypic.com/ifsbx2.png
By hour of the day (I seem to post in the minima mostly):
http://i29.tinypic.com/nxtiis.png
And by minute of the hour:
http://i32.tinypic.com/dolao2.png
http://i31.tinypic.com/ifsbx2.png
By hour of the day (I seem to post in the minima mostly):
http://i29.tinypic.com/nxtiis.png
And by minute of the hour:
http://i32.tinypic.com/dolao2.png
QUOTE (frater plecticus+Jan 28 2008, 12:00 PM)
The Thread is dead.
Long live the thread.
Did you get a chance to see the minor chaos you left in your wake last time you came around? Don't be so scarce next time, you opened up a nice discussion.
Long live the thread.
Did you get a chance to see the minor chaos you left in your wake last time you came around? Don't be so scarce next time, you opened up a nice discussion.
QUOTE (Max Photon+Jan 28 2008, 03:46 PM)
Wait, before you all go...
I have a few questions:
1.) Was there any significant aluminum combustion on impact?
2.) What caused the 66 smoke puffs/pressure pulses in WTC2?
3.) Was there a WTC arson investigation?
Max
Sorry, Max. I wish I had answers for you.
I have a few questions:
1.) Was there any significant aluminum combustion on impact?
2.) What caused the 66 smoke puffs/pressure pulses in WTC2?
3.) Was there a WTC arson investigation?
Max
Sorry, Max. I wish I had answers for you.
That's nice! Did you leech the pages and extract the info or is there a direct option to get it from the forum ?
An observation without conclusions
http://i28.tinypic.com/vqmno5.jpg
I've seen that before, a kink appears somewhere above in the tilting top section of the south tower, also the "air effect" seems to be at around that place.
I think there is an easy way to use smear-o-grams to measure the tilt, simply two n x 1 lines seperated by a distance of p pixels.
The angle then is simply arctan((x2-x1)/p)
It should be repeated a couple of times on different parts.
ps. it looks like inline images are disabled
http://i28.tinypic.com/vqmno5.jpg
I've seen that before, a kink appears somewhere above in the tilting top section of the south tower, also the "air effect" seems to be at around that place.
I think there is an easy way to use smear-o-grams to measure the tilt, simply two n x 1 lines seperated by a distance of p pixels.
The angle then is simply arctan((x2-x1)/p)
It should be repeated a couple of times on different parts.
ps. it looks like inline images are disabled
OneWhiteEye:
Since you appear to be a statistics aficionado, how about data on posts to this thread by number of words in the post, excluding "quoted" material of course!
Average length of each poster's posts would be of interest too!
Since I am one of the more windily-worded posters, I could boost my stats and come out ahead of DBB.
Then, of course, you could generate a weighted index combining number of posts, average length, etc, and rank us accordingly.
Also you could get into post correlations. Does Arthur always post soon after I post, or is that just my imagination?
One way or another we could keep this thread alive and kicking simply by discussing thread statistics!
Since you appear to be a statistics aficionado, how about data on posts to this thread by number of words in the post, excluding "quoted" material of course!
Average length of each poster's posts would be of interest too!
Since I am one of the more windily-worded posters, I could boost my stats and come out ahead of DBB.
Then, of course, you could generate a weighted index combining number of posts, average length, etc, and rank us accordingly.
Also you could get into post correlations. Does Arthur always post soon after I post, or is that just my imagination?
One way or another we could keep this thread alive and kicking simply by discussing thread statistics!
INVESTIGATION OF DAMAGE TO BUILDINGS UNDER BLAST LOADINGS AND RECOMMENDED PROTECTION MEASURES
by Philip Esper
from http://www.ebi-engineering.com/Dr_Esper's_Paper.pdf
p. 3
The ductility and natural period of vibration of a structure governs its response to an explosion. Ductile elements, such as steel and reinforced concrete, can absorb significant amount of strain energy, whereas brittle elements, such as timber, masonry, and monolithic glass, fail abruptly.
.
.
i) if the positive phase duration of the blast pressure is shorter than the natural perod of vibration of the structure, the response is described as impulsive. In this case, most of the deformation of the structure will occur after the blast loading has diminished.
ii) If the postive phase duration of the blast pressure is longer than the natural period of vibration of the structure, then the response of the structure is referred to as quasistatic. In this case, the blast will cause the structure to deform whilst the loading is still being applied.
iii) If the positive phase duration of the blast pressure is close to the natural period of vibration of the structure, then the response of the structure is referred to as dynamic. In this case, the deformation of the structure is a function of time and the response is determined by solving the equation of motion of the structural system.
.
.
In general, a tall building will have a low frequency and thus a long period of vibration in relations to the duration of the load. Individual elements will have response times that may approach the load duration. Window panels of 1.0-1.5 m^^2 for instance, have a frequency greater than 10 Hz (or less than 0.1 s response time). Floor slabs have a frequency range of 10-30 Hz (or 0.03-0.1 s response time). Rigid elements which are unable to respond dynamically within the time period of loading will under some circumstances continue to attract load until they fail in-elastically, and abruptly.
(emphasis mine)
If a floor slab has a 0.03-0.1 s response time, then properly timed explosives should have no problem destroying them during the brief window of time that exists from when the collapse front reaches the floor above.
If the characteristics of the floor panel destroying explosions are such that copious amounts of dust are created, that may serve as a 'cover' for shaped charges destroying columns associated with the same floor.
If the floor slab destroying blasts are due to thermobarics (as compared to high explosives), then we can assume that "most of the deformation of the structure will occur after the blast loading has diminished" will be muted. In other words, there will be commensurately more deformation during the blast.
So, what does this all mean?
Ha! I wish I knew. However, I will take a stab, and say that if you want a "pulverizing" CD, then you have to make sure that your blast front travels slower than 32" / [(.1 - .03)/2] s, or
52 mph. (32" is the height of a floor slab.)
Of course, this is right in the range of the observed "squib" velocities.
Hmmmm.
by Philip Esper
from http://www.ebi-engineering.com/Dr_Esper's_Paper.pdf
QUOTE
p. 3
The ductility and natural period of vibration of a structure governs its response to an explosion. Ductile elements, such as steel and reinforced concrete, can absorb significant amount of strain energy, whereas brittle elements, such as timber, masonry, and monolithic glass, fail abruptly.
.
.
i) if the positive phase duration of the blast pressure is shorter than the natural perod of vibration of the structure, the response is described as impulsive. In this case, most of the deformation of the structure will occur after the blast loading has diminished.
ii) If the postive phase duration of the blast pressure is longer than the natural period of vibration of the structure, then the response of the structure is referred to as quasistatic. In this case, the blast will cause the structure to deform whilst the loading is still being applied.
iii) If the positive phase duration of the blast pressure is close to the natural period of vibration of the structure, then the response of the structure is referred to as dynamic. In this case, the deformation of the structure is a function of time and the response is determined by solving the equation of motion of the structural system.
.
.
In general, a tall building will have a low frequency and thus a long period of vibration in relations to the duration of the load. Individual elements will have response times that may approach the load duration. Window panels of 1.0-1.5 m^^2 for instance, have a frequency greater than 10 Hz (or less than 0.1 s response time). Floor slabs have a frequency range of 10-30 Hz (or 0.03-0.1 s response time). Rigid elements which are unable to respond dynamically within the time period of loading will under some circumstances continue to attract load until they fail in-elastically, and abruptly.
(emphasis mine)
If a floor slab has a 0.03-0.1 s response time, then properly timed explosives should have no problem destroying them during the brief window of time that exists from when the collapse front reaches the floor above.
If the characteristics of the floor panel destroying explosions are such that copious amounts of dust are created, that may serve as a 'cover' for shaped charges destroying columns associated with the same floor.
If the floor slab destroying blasts are due to thermobarics (as compared to high explosives), then we can assume that "most of the deformation of the structure will occur after the blast loading has diminished" will be muted. In other words, there will be commensurately more deformation during the blast.
So, what does this all mean?
Ha! I wish I knew. However, I will take a stab, and say that if you want a "pulverizing" CD, then you have to make sure that your blast front travels slower than 32" / [(.1 - .03)/2] s, or
52 mph. (32" is the height of a floor slab.)
Of course, this is right in the range of the observed "squib" velocities.
Hmmmm.
QUOTE (einsteen+Jan 29 2008, 12:08 PM)
That's nice! Did you leech the pages and extract the info or is there a direct option to get it from the forum ?
I leeched!
Yeah. Wonder why. Makes me want to take the discussion elsewhere. This is no longer a happy medium.
Yeah. Wonder why. Makes me want to take the discussion elsewhere. This is no longer a happy medium.
I've seen that before, a kink appears somewhere above in the tilting top section of the south tower, also the "air effect" seems to be at around that place.
I've noticed it, too. Comments forthcoming, within a few months...
I leeched!
QUOTE
ps. it looks like inline images are disabled
Yeah. Wonder why. Makes me want to take the discussion elsewhere. This is no longer a happy medium.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| ps. it looks like inline images are disabled |
Yeah. Wonder why. Makes me want to take the discussion elsewhere. This is no longer a happy medium.
I've seen that before, a kink appears somewhere above in the tilting top section of the south tower, also the "air effect" seems to be at around that place.
I've noticed it, too. Comments forthcoming, within a few months...
Excerpt from:
Tesla: Man Out of Time
Margaret Cheney
He attached an oscillator no larger than an alarm clock to a steel link 2' long and 2" thick.
"For a long time nothing happened, but at last the great steel link began to tremble, increased its trembling until it dilated and contracted like a beating heart, and finally broke. Sledgehammers could not have done it", he told a reporter, "crowbars could not have done it, but a fusillade of taps, no one of which would have harmed a baby, did it."
Pleased with this beginning, he put the little oscillator in his coat pocket. Finding a half-built steel building in the Wall Street district, 10 stories high with nothing up but the steelwork, he clamped the oscillator to one of the beams.
"In a few minutes I could feel the beam trembling. Gradually the trembling increased in intensity and extended throughout the whole great mass of steel. Finally the structure began to creak and weave, and the steelworkers came to the ground panic-stricken, believing that there had been an earthquake. Before anything serious happened, I took off the oscillator, put it in my pocket, and went away. But if I had kept on 10 minutes more, I could have laid that building flat in the street. And with the same oscillator I could drop Brooklyn Bridge in less than an hour."
http://www.rexresearch.com/teslamos/tmosc.htm#misc
Tesla: Man Out of Time
Margaret Cheney
He attached an oscillator no larger than an alarm clock to a steel link 2' long and 2" thick.
"For a long time nothing happened, but at last the great steel link began to tremble, increased its trembling until it dilated and contracted like a beating heart, and finally broke. Sledgehammers could not have done it", he told a reporter, "crowbars could not have done it, but a fusillade of taps, no one of which would have harmed a baby, did it."
Pleased with this beginning, he put the little oscillator in his coat pocket. Finding a half-built steel building in the Wall Street district, 10 stories high with nothing up but the steelwork, he clamped the oscillator to one of the beams.
"In a few minutes I could feel the beam trembling. Gradually the trembling increased in intensity and extended throughout the whole great mass of steel. Finally the structure began to creak and weave, and the steelworkers came to the ground panic-stricken, believing that there had been an earthquake. Before anything serious happened, I took off the oscillator, put it in my pocket, and went away. But if I had kept on 10 minutes more, I could have laid that building flat in the street. And with the same oscillator I could drop Brooklyn Bridge in less than an hour."
http://www.rexresearch.com/teslamos/tmosc.htm#misc
QUOTE (NEU-FONZE+Jan 29 2008, 03:13 PM)
OneWhiteEye:
Since you appear to be a statistics aficionado, how about data on posts to this thread by number of words in the post, excluding "quoted" material of course!
Average length of each poster's posts would be of interest too!
Since I am one of the more windily-worded posters, I could boost my stats and come out ahead of DBB.
Then, of course, you could generate a weighted index combining number of posts, average length, etc, and rank us accordingly.
Fabulous ideas, all. The parsing of the post body is a little more involved, but what a gold mine. Poster-specific dictionaries, trait sets, spelling errors, posting times. These are the first two lines of my next program:
Find out who the sock puppets are.
Another excellent suggestion, and I don't need to do any parsing for that. I'll let you know.
Another excellent suggestion, and I don't need to do any parsing for that. I'll let you know.
One way or another we could keep this thread alive and kicking simply by discussing thread statistics!
Yes! Now, with embedded images gone, I'm little less enthusiastic about keeping it going here. I can't help but feeling responsible.
Since you appear to be a statistics aficionado, how about data on posts to this thread by number of words in the post, excluding "quoted" material of course!
Average length of each poster's posts would be of interest too!
Since I am one of the more windily-worded posters, I could boost my stats and come out ahead of DBB.
Then, of course, you could generate a weighted index combining number of posts, average length, etc, and rank us accordingly.
Fabulous ideas, all. The parsing of the post body is a little more involved, but what a gold mine. Poster-specific dictionaries, trait sets, spelling errors, posting times. These are the first two lines of my next program:
CODE
require 'stemmer'
require 'classifier'
require 'classifier'
Find out who the sock puppets are.
QUOTE
Also you could get into post correlations. Does Arthur always post soon after I post, or is that just my imagination?
Another excellent suggestion, and I don't need to do any parsing for that. I'll let you know.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Also you could get into post correlations. Does Arthur always post soon after I post, or is that just my imagination? |
Another excellent suggestion, and I don't need to do any parsing for that. I'll let you know.
One way or another we could keep this thread alive and kicking simply by discussing thread statistics!
Yes! Now, with embedded images gone, I'm little less enthusiastic about keeping it going here. I can't help but feeling responsible.
QUOTE (zoktoberfest+Jan 29 2008, 11:13 AM)
"And with the same oscillator I could drop Brooklyn Bridge in less than an hour."
But none of the first responders in the towers felt a thing.
A no-go.
But none of the first responders in the towers felt a thing.
A no-go.
QUOTE (zoktoberfest+Jan 29 2008, 06:13 PM)
Excerpt from:
Tesla: Man Out of Time
Margaret Cheney
He attached an oscillator no larger than an alarm clock to a steel link 2' long and 2" thick.
"For a long time nothing happened, but at last the great steel link began to tremble, increased its trembling until it dilated and contracted like a beating heart, and finally broke. Sledgehammers could not have done it", he told a reporter, "crowbars could not have done it, but a fusillade of taps, no one of which would have harmed a baby, did it."
Pleased with this beginning, he put the little oscillator in his coat pocket. Finding a half-built steel building in the Wall Street district, 10 stories high with nothing up but the steelwork, he clamped the oscillator to one of the beams.
"In a few minutes I could feel the beam trembling. Gradually the trembling increased in intensity and extended throughout the whole great mass of steel. Finally the structure began to creak and weave, and the steelworkers came to the ground panic-stricken, believing that there had been an earthquake. Before anything serious happened, I took off the oscillator, put it in my pocket, and went away. But if I had kept on 10 minutes more, I could have laid that building flat in the street. And with the same oscillator I could drop Brooklyn Bridge in less than an hour."
http://www.rexresearch.com/teslamos/tmosc.htm#misc
That is because an oscillator causes heat weakening of the steel by inducing vibrations that gently build into heat damaging the intragrandular bonding the same thing fire does.
Tesla: Man Out of Time
Margaret Cheney
He attached an oscillator no larger than an alarm clock to a steel link 2' long and 2" thick.
"For a long time nothing happened, but at last the great steel link began to tremble, increased its trembling until it dilated and contracted like a beating heart, and finally broke. Sledgehammers could not have done it", he told a reporter, "crowbars could not have done it, but a fusillade of taps, no one of which would have harmed a baby, did it."
Pleased with this beginning, he put the little oscillator in his coat pocket. Finding a half-built steel building in the Wall Street district, 10 stories high with nothing up but the steelwork, he clamped the oscillator to one of the beams.
"In a few minutes I could feel the beam trembling. Gradually the trembling increased in intensity and extended throughout the whole great mass of steel. Finally the structure began to creak and weave, and the steelworkers came to the ground panic-stricken, believing that there had been an earthquake. Before anything serious happened, I took off the oscillator, put it in my pocket, and went away. But if I had kept on 10 minutes more, I could have laid that building flat in the street. And with the same oscillator I could drop Brooklyn Bridge in less than an hour."
http://www.rexresearch.com/teslamos/tmosc.htm#misc
That is because an oscillator causes heat weakening of the steel by inducing vibrations that gently build into heat damaging the intragrandular bonding the same thing fire does.
Slightly OT, but there's a great Rolling Stone article up about the FBI's and fellow agencies' attempts to drum up mass hysteria and fear over "homegrown" terrorist cells, usually by encouraging and entrapping lonely, and isolated, people to plan acts they would have never come up with by themselves (nor had access to the resources necessary to pull them off).
The Fear Factory
"The FBI now has more than 100 task forces devoted exclusively to fighting terrorism. But is the government manufacturing ghosts?"
The Fear Factory
"The FBI now has more than 100 task forces devoted exclusively to fighting terrorism. But is the government manufacturing ghosts?"
QUOTE
For law enforcement, fear and the politics of fear have entwined to create a radical new paradigm. Even the term "law enforcement" has been rendered quaint by the Bush administration. These days, the term of art is "lawfare" —the confluence of police work and military tactics. With Joint Terrorism Task Forces set up across the country to coordinate the work of federal agencies and local cops, the FBI now devotes nearly two-thirds of its resources —some $4 billion —to waging war on terrorism. The approach today is not the traditional police work of investigating actual crimes but the far more slippery goal of preventing terrorist attacks before they occur.
To hear the Bush administration tell it, the JTTFs have been an unqualified success. The task forces have been credited with uncovering and busting up homegrown terrorist cells in Oregon, Seattle, Detroit, Miami, Buffalo and New Jersey. All told, the Feds have accused 619 people of "terrorist activity" since 9/11 —a record that the FBI insists has made America safer. In 2005 alone, more than 10 million terror inquiries were checked against the JTTF's Investigative Data Warehouse, a central repository for "terrorism-related documents." Such numbers create the sense that America is indeed under siege —and that the government is on top of the threat. "These extremists are self-recruited, self-trained and self-executing," FBI Director Robert Mueller declared in 2006. "These homegrown terrorists may prove to be as dangerous as groups like Al Qaeda, if not more so."
But a closer inspection of the cases brought by JTTFs reveals that most of the prosecutions had one thing in common: The defendants posed little if any demonstrable threat to anyone or anything. According to a study by the Center on Law and Security at the New York University School of Law, only ten percent of the 619 "terrorist" cases brought by the federal government have resulted in convictions on "terrorism-related" charges —a category so broad as to be meaningless. In the past year, none of the convictions involved jihadist terror plots targeting America. "The government releases selective figures," says Karen Greenberg, director of the center. "They have never even defined 'terrorism.' They keep us in the dark over statistics."
To hear the Bush administration tell it, the JTTFs have been an unqualified success. The task forces have been credited with uncovering and busting up homegrown terrorist cells in Oregon, Seattle, Detroit, Miami, Buffalo and New Jersey. All told, the Feds have accused 619 people of "terrorist activity" since 9/11 —a record that the FBI insists has made America safer. In 2005 alone, more than 10 million terror inquiries were checked against the JTTF's Investigative Data Warehouse, a central repository for "terrorism-related documents." Such numbers create the sense that America is indeed under siege —and that the government is on top of the threat. "These extremists are self-recruited, self-trained and self-executing," FBI Director Robert Mueller declared in 2006. "These homegrown terrorists may prove to be as dangerous as groups like Al Qaeda, if not more so."
But a closer inspection of the cases brought by JTTFs reveals that most of the prosecutions had one thing in common: The defendants posed little if any demonstrable threat to anyone or anything. According to a study by the Center on Law and Security at the New York University School of Law, only ten percent of the 619 "terrorist" cases brought by the federal government have resulted in convictions on "terrorism-related" charges —a category so broad as to be meaningless. In the past year, none of the convictions involved jihadist terror plots targeting America. "The government releases selective figures," says Karen Greenberg, director of the center. "They have never even defined 'terrorism.' They keep us in the dark over statistics."
QUOTE (zoktoberfest+Jan 29 2008, 01:13 PM)
Excerpt from:
Tesla: Man Out of Time
Margaret Cheney
He attached an oscillator no larger than an alarm clock to a steel link 2' long and 2" thick.
"For a long time nothing happened, but at last the great steel link began to tremble, increased its trembling until it dilated and contracted like a beating heart, and finally broke. Sledgehammers could not have done it", he told a reporter, "crowbars could not have done it, but a fusillade of taps, no one of which would have harmed a baby, did it."
Pleased with this beginning, he put the little oscillator in his coat pocket. Finding a half-built steel building in the Wall Street district, 10 stories high with nothing up but the steelwork, he clamped the oscillator to one of the beams.
"In a few minutes I could feel the beam trembling. Gradually the trembling increased in intensity and extended throughout the whole great mass of steel. Finally the structure began to creak and weave, and the steelworkers came to the ground panic-stricken, believing that there had been an earthquake. Before anything serious happened, I took off the oscillator, put it in my pocket, and went away. But if I had kept on 10 minutes more, I could have laid that building flat in the street. And with the same oscillator I could drop Brooklyn Bridge in less than an hour."
Zoctober,
Do you REALLY think Telsa had a device, no larger than an alarm clock, that could shake the bottom 5 stories of a 10 story steel building till it failed or destroy the Brooklyn bridge?
Arthur
Tesla: Man Out of Time
Margaret Cheney
He attached an oscillator no larger than an alarm clock to a steel link 2' long and 2" thick.
"For a long time nothing happened, but at last the great steel link began to tremble, increased its trembling until it dilated and contracted like a beating heart, and finally broke. Sledgehammers could not have done it", he told a reporter, "crowbars could not have done it, but a fusillade of taps, no one of which would have harmed a baby, did it."
Pleased with this beginning, he put the little oscillator in his coat pocket. Finding a half-built steel building in the Wall Street district, 10 stories high with nothing up but the steelwork, he clamped the oscillator to one of the beams.
"In a few minutes I could feel the beam trembling. Gradually the trembling increased in intensity and extended throughout the whole great mass of steel. Finally the structure began to creak and weave, and the steelworkers came to the ground panic-stricken, believing that there had been an earthquake. Before anything serious happened, I took off the oscillator, put it in my pocket, and went away. But if I had kept on 10 minutes more, I could have laid that building flat in the street. And with the same oscillator I could drop Brooklyn Bridge in less than an hour."
Zoctober,
Do you REALLY think Telsa had a device, no larger than an alarm clock, that could shake the bottom 5 stories of a 10 story steel building till it failed or destroy the Brooklyn bridge?
Arthur
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