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wcelliott
QUOTE
haha! you must really love me.


In case you haven't been keeping up with the past few pages, the quote was in reference to a newbie, "stundie", whose posts remind me of what you'd sound like on crack (assuming you aren't).

As for love, no, I really don't. We might, on other topics, actually find ourselves in agreement. I don't believe every cover-story, and I do believe that some things that've been described as happenstance or natural disasters were actually covert operations plus the usual denials/coverups. I don't want to open a can of worms here, I'm just saying that I'm neither naive nor a troother. On this one, particular instance, the troothers are simply wrong, and they're undermining the credibility of everyone who voices doubts about any "official story".
metamars
From the Dover book "Impact - The Theory and Physical Behavior of Colliding Solids" by Werner Goldsmith:

One table you may want to look at is Table 20 - Static and Dynamic Tensile Properties of Some Metals. (pp 324 -325)

For most steels, there's a large difference between static and dynamic values of 'Energy per Unit Volume (ft-lb/in^^3). While Type 302 Stainless Steel has values of3940 (st) and 3840 (dy), more typical is SAE 1095, which has 888 (st) and 1239 (dy).


QUOTE

The dynamic ultimate strength was determined from the average value of the maximum plateau in the stess-time curve measured by a dynamometer in series with the specimen. The reported energy per unit volume is a first-order approximation, being computed as the product of the impact velocity and the total area under the stress-time curve. For almost all materials tested, the dynamic ultimate strength exceeded the static value, but remained relatively constant above impact velocities of 25 ft/sec;...



Also of interest, p. 333:
QUOTE (->
QUOTE

The dynamic ultimate strength was determined from the average value of the maximum plateau in the stess-time curve measured by a dynamometer in series with the specimen. The reported energy per unit volume is a first-order approximation, being computed as the product of the impact velocity and the total area under the stress-time curve. For almost all materials tested, the dynamic ultimate strength exceeded the static value, but remained relatively constant above impact velocities of 25 ft/sec;...



Also of interest, p. 333:

It may be noted that the dynamic compressive yield stress of mild carbon steel is raised by a factor varying between 2 and 3 over the corresponding static yield stress, but that the ratio of these stresses decreases with increasing strain. The dynamic yield stress for a given material is increased both with impact velocity - and hence, strain rate - and a decrease in test temperature, exactly as in the case of tensile tests.

A time delay before the initiation of plastic flow was observed in all dynamic tests, as may be seen from the numbers along the curves, which represent the time in microseconds to reach a given state.


(emphasis mine)
stundie
QUOTE (Capracus+Oct 18 2007, 05:02 PM)
According to this eyewitness, a wing survived.

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Praimnath

Its a shame that Purdue in their animations do not show the wing intact.

However, the point is that explosions were heard at WTC 7, in which no plane hit.
So the source of the explosions cannot be the wings....Regardless of what Arthur says!
stundie
QUOTE (quicknthedead+Oct 19 2007, 02:55 AM)
Thanks, shagster, for finding and posting that.

These are definitely two seemingly different sets of sound audios for the same camera/event...? 

How can this be explained?  (More information would great.)

BTW, when you go to...
www*mediumrecords*com/wtc/audio01*html

"discussion of the authenticity of this clip's audio can be found on "this page" since the audio portion has most certainly be "dramatized" for the Dolby 5.1 format from whence it came"

...the link is broken.



stundie, do you have any explanation for this contradiction?

Hi quicknthedead,

He did the original Sonogram on the Trinity Street footage thinking it was the original. The footage he used was not the original, as it was extracted from a DVD about Mayor Guillani which was processed in Dolby 5.1

This film uses the Trinity Street footage. It was pointed out to him, so in the feedback section (Which doesn't work), he addresses this issue by finding the original Trinity Street footage. Again, he produces a sonogram and it comes back with the very same peaks.

Hope that explains it.

Cheers

Stundie
stundie
QUOTE (adoucette+Oct 18 2007, 04:20 PM)
I give up.

You ARE that dense.

Arthur

So you giving up, because you have no source or explanation for the explosions heard at WTC1, 2 & 7?? Rather than face the possibility, or even look at the possibility of explosions, you would rather ignore it.

As I said to you before, you appear to anything to hold on to the official account which as been fed to you. All your sources for the explosions have gaping holes in it and therefore invalid. Lets go over what you have purposed so far?

Arthurs Plane Wing Failure Caused Explosions Theory.
One wing appears to have survived intact, but the does not explain explosions heard at WTC7, as no plane hit it. = Failure.

Arthurs Building Collapses Makes Explosives Sounds Theory
This is contradictory to other evidence, as explosions were heard before and after the buildings had collapse - I posted 2 links showing this and its reported by many witnesses at GZ. Also, Arthur cannot show evidence of any other building collapsing which sounds like an explosion. = Failure.

Any other theories you have please feel free to add?

Then you have the audacity to call me DENSE?? ohmy.gif lol laugh.gif Yet you are the one who is suggesting that NIST as never investigated the collapse beyond initiation, yet they support the Pancake Collapse theory, even though NIST have a definitive statement which states "NIST do not support the pancake collapse theory" laugh.gif

You are truly dilusional Arthur.

stundie
QUOTE (Trippy+Oct 18 2007, 05:57 PM)
Yeah, you know, spectrogram, that thing that you were blithely copying and pasting from wikipedia.  COmpare it to the demoliion of the hudson building.

You asked me to look at a Songram, which I did?? What was it? A Basketball??

Did you not read the website?? rolleyes.gif

He COMPARES it too the demolition of the Hudson Building...

Trinity Footage
www.mediumrecords.com/wtc/sonograms/trinity03b.jpg

Hudson Demolition.
www.mediumrecords.com/wtc/sonograms/hudson02b.jpg
adoucette
Stundie,

The point is you obviously do not realize the significance of Boeing test.

The fact that it was a WING that they were testing is not relevant to the point.

They could have been testing ANY STRUCTURE by increasing the strain to its failure point and its failure would be accompanied by a sound that we would characterize as an EXPLOSION.

ANY STRUCTURE, not just a wing.

Which is why it applies to the WTC towers.

As to the sounds pre-collapse.

Do you think the towers collapsed based on the FIRST internal structural failure?

Highly unlikely.

A much more likely scenario would be a SERIES of failures, over time, leading to final failure that results in global instability. A number of these failures would likely be accompanied by explosive sounds.

As to the sound of WTC2 collapsing, for which we have now heard the original recording, there is no sound anything like the SHARP CRACKS of High Explosive going off that are heard in the Hudson building.

And as your source points out:

QUOTE (Brian+)
the intense "roar" associated with the towers coming down actually begins before any signs of typical explosions occur


So, again, there is no evidence that the collapse BEGAN by explosives going off.

Which is problematic for any theory that supposes that explosives go off AFTER the collapse starts because it has been shown that once the towers began to collapse, no other energy was required for them to collapse in the manner that they did.

The LACK of these characteristic explosive sounds IMMEDIATELY PRIOR to the start of the collapse is precisely why the troofers have largely embraced the "Thermate" theory of WTC demolition.

Arthur
stundie
QUOTE (Trippy+Oct 18 2007, 06:20 PM)
Thankyou for that Arthur, it beautifully illustrates the point that I tried making earlier about explosive failure.

I think (one of) the points that's being missed by the conspiracy theorists on the thread is that all single impulse events, irrespective of whether you're talking about a 4 inch brick of C-4 going off, a wing snapping, a floor pan failing, or someone beating on a drum, all bare features that look the same on a spectrogram, because they're all cause by the same process - the sudden transfer of large quantities of energy to the atmosphere.

So you are suggesting that a 4 inch brick of C-4 going off, a wing snapping, a floor pan failing, or someone beating on a drum all share the same, amplitude, frequency and time parameters, so they all look the same on a sonogram?? huh.gif

What a ridiculous claim and more importantly, it just highlights my point even further. Like Arthur, you are using any excuse to ignore the evidence, to the point you have to make things up, like wcelliot does.

So far, the defenders of the official story have said that the Sonograms can't be used because....

40Khz samples is an under samples and therefore, it will not pick up an explosion.

Various sounds (a 4 inch brick of C-4 going off, a wing snapping, a floor pan failing, or someone beating on a drum) all look the same on a sonogram, because they share the same frequency, amplitude and time parameters.

Hilarious excuses!!
Capracus
QUOTE (stundie+Oct 19 2007, 12:06 PM)
Its a shame that Purdue in their animations do not show the wing intact.
If Purdue had done an animation of the South Tower, maybe they would have shown an intact wing.

adoucette
QUOTE (Capracus+Oct 19 2007, 09:56 AM)
If Purdue had done an animation of the South Tower, maybe they would have shown an intact wing.

Contrary to the person's belief, it was most likely NOT the wing, but part of the tail section that he saw. The tail (horizontal portion), at a span of 70 ft most definately looks like a wing.

But based on the angle of entry and the damage done to the exterior of the towers the entire wing WAS shredded and none of it would look like a wing after entry into the building.

The tail on the other hand apparently entered through a hole made by the plane and at a significantly slower speed (up to ~ 100 m/s slower than the wings).

Arthur

stundie
Wcelliot,

You claimed this earlier...

QUOTE
A brick of C-4 detonates completely in 10 microseconds. 


And then you say this...

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
A brick of C-4 detonates completely in 10 microseconds. 


And then you say this...

And I don't know of any microphones that can record a 10microsecond event, either.

So what you are saying here is that a microphone cannot record a C4 detonation, because according to you, C4 detonates in 10 microseconds and you do not know of any microphones which can record a 10 microsecond sound?? ohmy.gif

Are you serious?? laugh.gif

I've heard C4 charges going off on videos, films etc etc...and I'm pretty sure these microphones picked up this sound.



metamars
QUOTE (metamars+Oct 19 2007, 11:13 AM)
more typical is SAE 1095, which has 888 (st) and 1239 (dy).



Yipes, this particular steel looks like it has little connection to structural steel in the WTC buildings. See http://www.smallparts.com/products/descriptions/fss.cfm. In fact, this particular steel is recommended for "coiled and flat mechanical springs."

I'll try and find figures for structural steel.


(In the Goldsmith book, the only non-SAE X steel was the stainless steel.)
wcelliott
QUOTE
I've heard C4 charges going off on videos, films etc etc...and I'm pretty sure these microphones picked up this sound.


This is PRECISELY the point I've been trying to make. You aren't hearing the EXPLOSIVES going off, that starts and end in 10microseconds. That's not just my opinion, the detonation rate for C-4 was provided by someone else here, I just did the math. (Actually, the 10 microsecond figure is worst-case, if the detonator was centered, it'd be closer to 5microseconds.)

So what is it that you hear, if not the actual sound of the C-4 going off? You hear the ECHOES of the C-4 BOUNCING OFF THE ENVIRONMENT. It's that BOUNCING around that stretches-out the 10microsecond impulse into something that's slow enough for us to hear. Every time it reflects off a surface, it takes a slightly longer path to reach your ears. It starts out plenty loud, so you have plenty of energy to hear echoes of echoes of echoes... times 100. All those echoes smear-out the 10 microsecond impulse into something that's low-enough frequency for your ears to hear.

You've provided us with recordings of "explosions" that lasted several seconds... Do you really think that a 4-inch block of C-4 takes several seconds to detonate? Where, then, did YOU think those several seconds-worth of sound came from?

I was PROGRAMMING sonogram software for IDENTIFYING small aircraft by their engine/prop-noises back in 1985. Were you even born yet? Your Sound Engineer's credentials don't impress me in the slightest. Every "Sound Engineer" I've ever met was a former musician lacking either the talent or the looks necessary to get groupies, so he set up his sound board in his mom's basement and started renting it out for pot money.
stundie
QUOTE

The point is you obviously do not realize the significance of Boeing test.

The fact that it was a WING that they were testing is not relevant to the point.

They could have been testing ANY STRUCTURE by increasing the strain to its failure point and its failure would be accompanied by a sound that we would characterize as an EXPLOSION.

ANY STRUCTURE, not just a wing.

Which is why it applies to the WTC towers.

As to the sounds pre-collapse.

Do you think the towers collapsed based on the FIRST internal structural failure?

Highly unlikely.

A much more likely scenario would be a SERIES of failures, over time, leading to final failure that results in global instability. A number of these failures would likely be accompanied by explosive sounds.


So lets play with Arthurs new theory.....

(Beams, trusses, columns etc etc) Failing Can Cause An Explosive Sound Theory

Then why is there not hundreds and thousands of explosives sounds heard when the ENTIRE WTC collapses and fails?? Because the video evidence seems to suggest a rumble, not explosives when all 2 WTC collapse.

Another problem is this which you keep avoiding is this??
www*youtube*com/watch?v=CcRs1fv8i3I

No building is falling, yet there is still an explosive sound?

How does your theory fit in with William Rodriguez accounts of failing materials which lifted him off his feet??

So that's another failure for you Arthur..Keep dreaming up new theories!

QUOTE (->
QUOTE

The point is you obviously do not realize the significance of Boeing test.

The fact that it was a WING that they were testing is not relevant to the point.

They could have been testing ANY STRUCTURE by increasing the strain to its failure point and its failure would be accompanied by a sound that we would characterize as an EXPLOSION.

ANY STRUCTURE, not just a wing.

Which is why it applies to the WTC towers.

As to the sounds pre-collapse.

Do you think the towers collapsed based on the FIRST internal structural failure?

Highly unlikely.

A much more likely scenario would be a SERIES of failures, over time, leading to final failure that results in global instability. A number of these failures would likely be accompanied by explosive sounds.


So lets play with Arthurs new theory.....

(Beams, trusses, columns etc etc) Failing Can Cause An Explosive Sound Theory

Then why is there not hundreds and thousands of explosives sounds heard when the ENTIRE WTC collapses and fails?? Because the video evidence seems to suggest a rumble, not explosives when all 2 WTC collapse.

Another problem is this which you keep avoiding is this??
www*youtube*com/watch?v=CcRs1fv8i3I

No building is falling, yet there is still an explosive sound?

How does your theory fit in with William Rodriguez accounts of failing materials which lifted him off his feet??

So that's another failure for you Arthur..Keep dreaming up new theories!

As to the sound of WTC2 collapsing, for which we have now heard the original recording, there is no sound anything like the SHARP CRACKS of High Explosive going off that are heard in the Hudson building.

So, again, there is no evidence that the collapse BEGAN by explosives going off.

Again, instead of choosing which evidence to look at, look at everything before you build you theory.

www*youtube*com/watch?v=qFyy4Yj-XF4
4:14 - 4:21 mins.
"We heard a large explosion, coming from the area of building 2 and at that point, building 2 was collapsed"

QUOTE
Which is problematic for any theory that supposes that explosives go off AFTER the collapse starts because it has been shown that once the towers began to collapse, no other energy was required for them to collapse in the manner that they did.

It is not shown by NIST and if you are suggesting that Bazants paper that was produced 2 days after the collapse, without looking at any of the evidence at GZ. Then you are lying......

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Which is problematic for any theory that supposes that explosives go off AFTER the collapse starts because it has been shown that once the towers began to collapse, no other energy was required for them to collapse in the manner that they did.

It is not shown by NIST and if you are suggesting that Bazants paper that was produced 2 days after the collapse, without looking at any of the evidence at GZ. Then you are lying......

The LACK of these characteristic explosive sounds IMMEDIATELY PRIOR to the start of the collapse is precisely why the troofers have largely embraced the "Thermate" theory of WTC demolition.

Its funny that I am a so called twoofer, yet I'm not a member of any twoof movement! rolleyes.gif But hey, why shoot the message, when it's easier to shoot the messenger hey! Anyway....

See above for why your statement is wrong...




Capracus
QUOTE (adoucette+Oct 19 2007, 02:05 PM)
Contrary to the person's belief, it was most likely NOT the wing, but part of the tail section that he saw. The tail (horizontal portion), at a span of 70 ft most definately looks like a wing.

But based on the angle of entry and the damage done to the exterior of the towers the entire wing WAS shredded and none of it would look like a wing after entry into the building.

The tail on the other hand apparently entered through a hole made by the plane and at a significantly slower speed (up to ~ 100 m/s slower than the wings).

Arthur
I had considered that possibility also, and it's probably more likely that Praimnath did see a section of horizontal stabilizer. What's interesting about his account is that the "wing" was burning. Not that the stabilizer couldn't or appear to burn, just that a wing section is more likely to burn.

adoucette
Stundie,

When the building collapses, there would be many variations of how various components in the building would fail.

I would not expect that EVERY failure would result in generating a sound that would be DISTINCT from the overall ROAR of the collapse.

I would expect that there would be some however.

That's my opinion.

You are welcome to your own.

As to this:

QUOTE
Another problem is this which you keep avoiding is this??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcRs1fv8i3I

No building is falling, yet there is still an explosive sound?


I'm not avoiding it at all.

Its a tiny SNIPPET, that is UNSOURCED as to who took it, where it was taken at, when it was taken etc etc.

How do you know no building is falling?

That could be the sounds of WTC 7 self destructing.

So the point is its hard to comment on it without a LITTLE data.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Another problem is this which you keep avoiding is this??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcRs1fv8i3I

No building is falling, yet there is still an explosive sound?


I'm not avoiding it at all.

Its a tiny SNIPPET, that is UNSOURCED as to who took it, where it was taken at, when it was taken etc etc.

How do you know no building is falling?

That could be the sounds of WTC 7 self destructing.

So the point is its hard to comment on it without a LITTLE data.

How does your theory fit in with William Rodriguez accounts of failing materials which lifted him off his feet??


You don't expect anything like this from the force of a jet hitting the building at over 500 mph????

You do realize that the impact registered on seismometers many miles away, you know the same ones that DIDN'T register the 93 bombing?

Does that help explain why the towers VIBRATED back and forth after being hit?

Sheesh.

To this:

QUOTE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFyy4Yj-XF4
4:14 - 4:21 mins.
"We heard a large explosion, coming from the area of building 2 and at that point, building 2 was collapsed"


You obviously hear what you want to hear.

What he said:

"We heard a large explosion, coming from the area of building 2 and at that point, building 2 was collapsING"


As to showing that additional energy was not needed:

http://www.nistreview.org/WTC-PROGRESSIVE-...APSE-BAZANT.pdf

By the way, NIST did review and they agreed with Bazant's paper and said his estimate represented the LOWER bounds of the excess energy needed to collapse the building.

See NIST NCSTAR 1-6 Sect 9.4.4 Comparison to Other Collapse Hypotheses

Pg 323 NorthWestern University


Finally, what you IGNORE is that descriptions of EXPLOSIONS are not the same as EVIDENCE of EXPLOSIVES.


Arthur
metamars
The following paper has interesting diagrams of hardness across 2 rods welded together, on pp. 101+

MASTER'S THESIS Undermatching Butt Welds in High Strength Steel

http://epubl.ltu.se/1402-1617/2007/220/LTU-EX-07220-SE.pdf

stundie
QUOTE
This is PRECISELY the point I've been trying to make.  You aren't hearing the EXPLOSIVES going off, that starts and end in 10microseconds.  That's not just my opinion, the detonation rate for C-4 was provided by someone else here, I just did the math.  (Actually, the 10 microsecond figure is worst-case, if the detonator was centered, it'd be closer to 5microseconds.)

So what is it that you hear, if not the actual sound of the C-4 going off?  You hear the ECHOES of the C-4 BOUNCING OFF THE ENVIRONMENT.  It's that BOUNCING around that stretches-out the 10microsecond impulse into something that's slow enough for us to hear. Every time it reflects off a surface, it takes a slightly longer path to reach your ears.  It starts out plenty loud, so you have plenty of energy to hear echoes of echoes of echoes... times 100.  All those echoes smear-out the 10 microsecond impulse into something that's low-enough frequency for your ears to hear.

Wait a minute, you also said earlier that the C4 gives off one signal right??

So if it gives off one signal, which is 10 microseconds, then what we are hearing is that VERY SAME 10 microsecond signal bouncing around echoing.....

So the microphone as picked up the ORIGINAL SINGLE SIGNAL WHICH IS BOUNCING AROUND then agreed?? Unless you are now suggesting that it gives off more than one signal??

We are not talking about our ears, I'm sure if some C4 was detonated a few inches away from my ears, I would hear it as there would be a direct path my ears, as opposed to it bouncing around echoing. It would more than likely damage my ear drums from the pressure created from the sound and cause significant burns from the reaction. However, we are talking about a Microphones not our ears.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
This is PRECISELY the point I've been trying to make.  You aren't hearing the EXPLOSIVES going off, that starts and end in 10microseconds.  That's not just my opinion, the detonation rate for C-4 was provided by someone else here, I just did the math.  (Actually, the 10 microsecond figure is worst-case, if the detonator was centered, it'd be closer to 5microseconds.)

So what is it that you hear, if not the actual sound of the C-4 going off?  You hear the ECHOES of the C-4 BOUNCING OFF THE ENVIRONMENT.  It's that BOUNCING around that stretches-out the 10microsecond impulse into something that's slow enough for us to hear. Every time it reflects off a surface, it takes a slightly longer path to reach your ears.  It starts out plenty loud, so you have plenty of energy to hear echoes of echoes of echoes... times 100.  All those echoes smear-out the 10 microsecond impulse into something that's low-enough frequency for your ears to hear.

Wait a minute, you also said earlier that the C4 gives off one signal right??

So if it gives off one signal, which is 10 microseconds, then what we are hearing is that VERY SAME 10 microsecond signal bouncing around echoing.....

So the microphone as picked up the ORIGINAL SINGLE SIGNAL WHICH IS BOUNCING AROUND then agreed?? Unless you are now suggesting that it gives off more than one signal??

We are not talking about our ears, I'm sure if some C4 was detonated a few inches away from my ears, I would hear it as there would be a direct path my ears, as opposed to it bouncing around echoing. It would more than likely damage my ear drums from the pressure created from the sound and cause significant burns from the reaction. However, we are talking about a Microphones not our ears.

You've provided us with recordings of "explosions" that lasted several seconds...  Do you really think that a 4-inch block of C-4 takes several seconds to detonate?  Where, then, did YOU think those several seconds-worth of sound came from?

Several seconds?? huh.gif Where do you make this stuff up from??

Please show me where I provided you with a recording of an explosion which lasts several seconds??

Again, you are trying to muddy this issue, but its not working. tongue.gif

QUOTE
I was PROGRAMMING sonogram software for IDENTIFYING small aircraft by their engine/prop-noises back in 1985.  Were you even born yet?

Yes... rolleyes.gif I've already told you I was flippin burgers back in 1985.

Anyway, you'd better tell Trippy ALL about your sonogram experience, because according to him, a c4 brick, a drum beat, a wing snapping etc etc all sound the same and look the same on a sonogram.

So if he is to be believed, then you have no chance of identifying aircraft by their engine noises.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
I was PROGRAMMING sonogram software for IDENTIFYING small aircraft by their engine/prop-noises back in 1985.  Were you even born yet?

Yes... rolleyes.gif I've already told you I was flippin burgers back in 1985.

Anyway, you'd better tell Trippy ALL about your sonogram experience, because according to him, a c4 brick, a drum beat, a wing snapping etc etc all sound the same and look the same on a sonogram.

So if he is to be believed, then you have no chance of identifying aircraft by their engine noises.

Your Sound Engineer's credentials don't impress me in the slightest.

They won't impress you, because I've never posted them!! If you want his credentials, contact him.

I prefer to shoot the message, not the messenger, hence the reason I do not give a crap about your Electrical Engineering credentials.

BTW....I know you may get tempted, but do not bother to post them, as I really do not care. biggrin.gif Someone who screams "I'm an engineer, listen to me." is not appealing.
QUOTE
Every "Sound Engineer" I've ever met was a former musician lacking either the talent or the looks necessary to get groupies, so he set up his sound board in his mom's basement and started renting it out for pot money.

WOW....This just highlights how closed minded you really are! laugh.gif hahahahahaha!!!

Because of course, you have met every single sound engineer in the world for that statement to be valid hey?? hahahahahaha!!

What a joke and another example of a person who cannot shoot down the evidence but attacks the messenger! As I said, you sound so desperate!
stundie
QUOTE
Stundie,

When the building collapses, there would be many variations of how various components in the building would fail.

I would not expect that EVERY failure would result in generating a sound that would be DISTINCT from the overall ROAR of the collapse.

I would expect that there would be some however.

That's my opinion.

You are welcome to your own.

I'm glad you have stated that they are your own opinions.

But your opinions do not account for Rodriguez who suggest there was an explosion before the plane hit the towers in the basement.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Stundie,

When the building collapses, there would be many variations of how various components in the building would fail.

I would not expect that EVERY failure would result in generating a sound that would be DISTINCT from the overall ROAR of the collapse.

I would expect that there would be some however.

That's my opinion.

You are welcome to your own.

I'm glad you have stated that they are your own opinions.

But your opinions do not account for Rodriguez who suggest there was an explosion before the plane hit the towers in the basement.

As to this:

I'm not avoiding it at all.
Well this will be the 1st time you've addressed it.


QUOTE
Its a tiny SNIPPET, that is UNSOURCED as to who took it, where it was taken at, when it was taken etc etc.

Why does it matter who filmed it? Do you need to check their credentials to see if they have the relevant expertise to operate a camera?

It was taken at GZ as you can tell from the surrounding areas.

It was taken after WTC 1 & 2 collapsed and long before WTC 7 collapse.

These question do not answer what the explosive sound is? It appears you are asking these questions because it's more comfortable than having to face the possibility that explosives may have been planted in the WTC.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Its a tiny SNIPPET, that is UNSOURCED as to who took it, where it was taken at, when it was taken etc etc.

Why does it matter who filmed it? Do you need to check their credentials to see if they have the relevant expertise to operate a camera?

It was taken at GZ as you can tell from the surrounding areas.

It was taken after WTC 1 & 2 collapsed and long before WTC 7 collapse.

These question do not answer what the explosive sound is? It appears you are asking these questions because it's more comfortable than having to face the possibility that explosives may have been planted in the WTC.

How do you know no building is falling?

Only 3 buildings fell down that day, so the question is can you hear ANY building falling??

QUOTE
That could be the sounds of WTC 7 self destructing.

WTC 7 now self destructs?? This is interesting, maybe you should tell NIST as they are having trouble with WTC7 collapse...I wonder why?? rolleyes.gif

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
That could be the sounds of WTC 7 self destructing.

WTC 7 now self destructs?? This is interesting, maybe you should tell NIST as they are having trouble with WTC7 collapse...I wonder why?? rolleyes.gif

So the point is its hard to comment on it without a LITTLE data.

Its not hard to comment at all, you are making it hard because it's easier than having to face the uncomfortable fact, that this could suggest that explosives may have been used to bring down the WTC.

QUOTE
You don't expect anything like this from the force of a jet hitting the building at over 500 mph????

Not while he is in the basement, not really. Unless you are a proponent of JREFs Gravys Magic Fireball Theory, in which he suggest that the impact and the fireball magically traveled all the way down to the basement.

Which he does without any evidence, calculations or data.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
You don't expect anything like this from the force of a jet hitting the building at over 500 mph????

Not while he is in the basement, not really. Unless you are a proponent of JREFs Gravys Magic Fireball Theory, in which he suggest that the impact and the fireball magically traveled all the way down to the basement.

Which he does without any evidence, calculations or data.

You do realize that the impact registered on seismometers many miles away, you know the same ones that DIDN'T register the 93 bombing?
Your statement doesn't make any sense??

You are suggesting that the impacts of the plane registered on seismometers and the explosives of 93 didn't? Nothing impacted the WTC back in 93, hence the reason nothing appear on a seismometer!! DOH!!! blink.gif

Is that the reason why explosives in 2001 didn't register on the seismometer like they didn't back in 93 either?

QUOTE
Does that help explain why the towers VIBRATED back and forth after being hit?

Did I ever say that the towers didn't vibrate back and forth after being hit?

You are making up strawmen here Arthur?

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Does that help explain why the towers VIBRATED back and forth after being hit?

Did I ever say that the towers didn't vibrate back and forth after being hit?

You are making up strawmen here Arthur?

You obviously hear what you want to hear.

What he said:

"We heard a large explosion, coming from the area of building 2 and at that point, building 2 was collapsING"

Sorry, it was collapsing and not collapsed....My bad, but how does that make his statement wrong? He still heard "A large explosion coming from building 2 and at that point, building 2 was collapsing"

This still makes your original claim that there was no explosions before WTC 2 collapsed WRONG.

Again, you can't admit to when you are wrong, even when it's clear you are wrong.

QUOTE
As to showing that additional energy was not needed:

www*nistreview*org/WTC-PROGRESSIVE-COLLAPSE-BAZANT*pdf

This paper as been refuted by other engineers and if this is the one which he created 2 days after the attacks, then I'm going to laugh at you.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
As to showing that additional energy was not needed:

www*nistreview*org/WTC-PROGRESSIVE-COLLAPSE-BAZANT*pdf

This paper as been refuted by other engineers and if this is the one which he created 2 days after the attacks, then I'm going to laugh at you.

Finally, what you IGNORE is that descriptions of EXPLOSIONS are not the same as EVIDENCE of EXPLOSIVES.


Arthur

What you ignore is that descriptions of explosions means we cannot rule out the possibility of explosions....

Does that make sense to you?

Yes, I agree, it could be other things, but it could also be explosives.

You have ruled this possibility out, because if you rule it in, it washes away the official story which you find so comforting and raises a possibility that the government may have plotted it.

Hence the reason you so rigorously deny this possibility.
adoucette
No Stundie,

We ALL agree there were EXPLOSIVE sounds that day.

But most of us realize that the impacts of jets at 400 to 500 mph and the collapse of two 110 story buildings is going to generate explosive sounds.

And most of us realize that a huge building left on fire for hours is likely to generate some explosive sounds on its way to collapsing.

And most of us realize, that in that burning heap of buildings, along with hundreds of vehicles, chemicals, gas lines etc that there would be residual explosions (note, most all High Explosives WON'T detonate from heat, they JUST burn)

So, you need OTHER EVIDENCE to support the existence of Explosive Demolition.

So far you have provided NONE.



The point about the Seismometer is the impact of the plane was MORE ENERGETIC than the 93 explosion.

Why did Rod hear the impact "appear" to come from the below him?

Simple, the speed of sound is much faster in steel than in the air.

And YES the evidence DOES support a fireball generated from the aircraft impact affecting the basement/lobby levels of WTC 1 based on all the many BURNT victims on those floors (including the maint guy who got burnt based on a FIRE coming out of an elevator in the basement levels).

Burnt victims would NOT be expected from the detonation of HIGH EXPLOSIVES however.

As to:

QUOTE (Stundie+)
http://www.nistreview.org/WTC-PROGRESSIVE-COLLAPSE-BAZANT.pdf

This paper as been refuted by other engineers


Oh yeah?

Where and When and by Who?


The fact is Stundie, you keep bringing up things which have been REPEATEDLY shown to be FALSE.

Which is one reason most of the regulars don't even bother with you.


Arthur
adoucette
QUOTE (stundie+Oct 19 2007, 12:31 PM)
You have ruled this possibility out, because if you rule it in, it washes away the official story which you find so comforting and raises a possibility that the government may have plotted it.

No, we have discussed this possibility for over 2 years on this board and in all that time NO ONE, yourself included, has come up with ANY convincing evidence that the towers were brought down by explosives.

What we have had instead is a long succession of troofers who have postulated EVERYTHING IMAGINABLE to try to come up with an ALTERNATE reason for the collapse of the towers.

Its quite clear, after several years of this, that the one thing that unites most troofers is they are NOT interested in the truth.

They, for whatever reasons, hate the US govt (or just this administration) or PNAC or the New World Order, or the illuminati or the Jews, or the conspirators de jour and twist the events that day to come up with support for that hatred.

You know, LIKE YOU:

QUOTE (Stundie+)
the government may have plotted it.


QUOTE (Stundie+)
a publication might not want to upset the apple cart by implicating the Bush admin in the murder of 3000 people.


QUOTE (Stundie+)
Then you should also add the hundreds of thousands that been murdered and died in the invasion of 2 countries, all based on a pack of lies,




Arthur
OneWhiteEye
NEU-FONZE:

I've generated some tail motion data for the F4 crash test. It was taken from the sixth segment of the video from einsteen's link. This, I believe, is the same segment einsteen used to produce the smear which appeared roughly linear.

The method I used is entirely different from that einsteen used; the frames are examined directly and a smeared image is not employed in any way. The target is a checkerboard alignment mark painted on the tail for the test. The analysis attempts to track the center of this target as it moves from left to right in successive frames.

The frame range (indexed to the original video which has 17 segments) is from 6710 to 6910, roughly the time the tail comes into full view until the tail is about to be destroyed. The initial and final frames are shown below, along with the rectangles that are used (in this case) for linear interpolation to determine the analysis selection rectangle for the current frame.


User posted image

Initial Frame showing 20x20 analysis rectangle placement


User posted image
Final Frame showing 20x20 analysis rectangle placement


The analysis generates a table of X,Y pixel values by frame number and an animation made from cropping each frame to the selection rectangle. A green dot is placed at the calculated target center location so the results of the analysis can be viewed directly on an excerpt of the video. Additionally, the approximate fitness of the selection rectangle over the frame range can be verified simultaneously.

The animation appears below, pausing a moment at the last frame which has a red dot in the upper left. The jitter from transferring film to video is most of the motion you see. During this time, the F4 is moving from left to right in the video frame and this animation more or less tracks with it.


user posted image

Selection rectangle over frames 6710 to 6910 with dot at calculated x,y


Note the dot remains reasonably well placed on the center of the target through all the frames, showing the calculations and data are indeed valid. Now, let's have a look at the data used to place that dot.

The graph below depicts the calculated horizontal position versus frame number. Three significant frames are annotated on the graph, with the frame numbers and location being approximate.

Frame 6775: the nose makes contact with wall
Frame 6825: the forward portion of the wings where they join the fuselage reach the wall
Frame 6895: the fuselage where the aft portion of the wings join reaches the wall


User posted image

Graph of tail target center position
NEU-FONZE
OneWhiteEye:

Wow, that's an amazing amount of work you've done there!

What can I say?

The plot sure looks linear, but therefore contradicts the accelerometer data of Sugano... I am really not sure why that is....

All I can think of right now is:

1. A possible perspective effect as the aircraft moves from left to right.

2. The fact that the rocket motors were still driving the aircraft throughout most of the impact.

However, as far as I can tell, these corrections appear to go the wrong way!

OR,

3. Sugano's results are wrong!
David B. Benson
QUOTE (NEU-FONZE+Oct 19 2007, 02:07 PM)
... therefore contradicts the accelerometer data of Sugano...

2. The fact that the rocket motors were still driving the aircraft throughout most of the impact.

If so, no acceleratiion?

And yes, it is very impressive!
adoucette
QUOTE (NEU-FONZE+Oct 19 2007, 05:07 PM)
OneWhiteEye:

Wow, that's an amazing amount of work you've done there!

What can I say?

The plot sure looks linear, but therefore contradicts the accelerometer data of Sugano... I am really not sure why that is....

All I can think of right now is:

1. A possible perspective effect as the aircraft moves from left to right.

2. The fact that the rocket motors were still driving the aircraft throughout most of the impact.

However, as far as I can tell, these corrections appear to go the wrong way!

OR,

3. Sugano's results are wrong!

Neu,

Would you still argue that Jenkins’ analysis of the motion of the F-4 Phantom is not correct?

Arthur
OneWhiteEye
QUOTE (NEU-FONZE+Oct 19 2007, 09:07 PM)
Wow, that's an amazing amount of work you've done there!

Thanks.

QUOTE (NEU-FONZE+Oct 19 2007, 09:07 PM)
1. A possible perspective effect as the aircraft moves from left to right.

2. The fact that the rocket motors were still driving the aircraft throughout most of the impact.

However, as far as I can tell, these corrections appear to go the wrong way!


#1 could go either way, I think. It would be a coincidence, for sure, if it was just right to counteract and flatten the curve.

#2 could account for why deceleration is not observed on video, but then it wouldn't be observed in a tail accelerometer, either, since real and opposite forces cancel (see coincidence associated with #1). Residual thrust would certainly have to be accounted for in any report.


Trippy
No Stundie.

Only you could twist my words and take them so far out of context.

My point was that they are all single impulse events.

They all have characteristics in common with a brick of C4 going off.

The short rise time, and the more gradual fall off, would you agree that the sonogram I posted shares these very same features with the Trinity church sonogram, and the JL Hudson sonogram?

According to your logic (and Al's), the fact that it shares these features with those sonograms is sufficient to class it as an explosion created by HE.
OneWhiteEye
F4: Given the geometry - narrow field of view, camera distance greater than horizontal travel, I don't believe error reason #1 could have sufficient magnitude to skew the results to linear.
David B. Benson
QUOTE (OneWhiteEye+Oct 19 2007, 03:04 PM)
F4: Given the geometry - narrow field of view, camera distance greater than horizontal travel, I don't believe error reason #1 could have sufficient magnitude to skew the results to linear.

Maybe the accelerometer was further back on the tail than your green point measurement?

Poster shagster thought he could see some deceleration at the very end of the tail.
OneWhiteEye
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Oct 19 2007, 10:39 PM)
Maybe the accelerometer was further back on the tail than your green point measurement?

Poster shagster thought he could see some deceleration at the very end of the tail.

Wouldn't that mean the tail section would have to stretch longitudinally? While crashing into a solid object? Forward, yes, but not behind.
David B. Benson
QUOTE (OneWhiteEye+Oct 19 2007, 03:47 PM)
Wouldn't that mean the tail section would have to stretch longitudinally? While crashing into a solid object? Forward, yes, but not behind.

No, it means it would be compressing some of the material just forward of the tail end of the tail.

Instead of running full tilt into the wall with nothing intact in front of it.
shagster
I haven't analyzed the F4 video. I did a calculation for the aircraft impact of WTC2 a few pages back that wasn't based on measurements from video.

OneWhiteEye
You're saying the vertical stabilizer, where my alignment mark is, is ripping free of the fuselage during this time?
David B. Benson
QUOTE (shagster+Oct 19 2007, 04:03 PM)
I haven't analyzed the F4 video. I did a calculation for the aircraft impact of WTC2 a few pages back that wasn't based on measurements from video.

I thought you took the one that poster einsteen did, magnified it, and stated you could see it wasn't a straight line?
David B. Benson
QUOTE (OneWhiteEye+Oct 19 2007, 04:06 PM)
You're saying the vertical stabilizer, where my alignment mark is, is ripping free of the fuselage during this time?

Aha! That would certainly explain the discrepancy. smile.gif
OneWhiteEye
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Oct 19 2007, 11:10 PM)
Aha! That would certainly explain the discrepancy. smile.gif

That theory can be tested.
shagster
Where was the accelerometer in the tail exactly? The tail itself? Or the tail end of the fuselage?
OneWhiteEye
QUOTE (shagster+Oct 19 2007, 11:12 PM)
Where was the accelerometer in the tail exactly?  The tail?  Or the tail end of the fuselage?

I would expect it to be affixed to a structurally solid piece. The tip end of the fuselage.

The photo targets are placed according to different criteria.
OneWhiteEye
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Oct 19 2007, 11:07 PM)
I thought you took the one that poster einsteen did, magnified it, and stated you could see it wasn't a straight line?

That was adoucette.
adoucette
I did, and where Einsteen's WTC plot showed a SLIGHT slowdown, this one shows none at all from the point where the nose hits the block. (There is a very slight acceleration evident prior to impact)

I'm not saying they are wrong, but considering the previous study with accelerometers I'd look VERY closely at how those points are plotted to ensure they are correct.

Arthur
OneWhiteEye
QUOTE (adoucette+Oct 19 2007, 11:57 PM)
I did, and where Einsteen's WTC plot showed a SLIGHT slowdown, this one shows  none at all from the point where the nose hits the block. (There is a very slight acceleration evident prior to impact)

I'm not saying they are wrong, but considering the previous study with accelerometers I'd look VERY closely at how those points are plotted to ensure they are correct.

Arthur

You can look very closely at it, it's in the GIF I posted.

My take on einsteen's image was just the opposite. It looked slightly convex/concave-up to me, at least along a portion. With time on the vertical scale and down decreasing, position on the horizontal scale increasing to the right, that would mean acceleration.

So slight, the measurements so imprecise, and the source video pedigree unknown (maybe a bigger factor here than presumed), I didn't think it was worth mentioning. Very subjective, too.
OneWhiteEye
I'm sorry, I may have misunderstood your remarks. The WTC plot?
NEU-FONZE
Arthur... I stand by what I said about Jenkins' paper.... unless of course it turns out that Sugano and Omika's papers are examples of "bad science". I have seen data falsified and sent to science/engineering journals and organizations like the ASTM for publication ..... and ACCEPTED FOR PUBLICATION... because that kind of fakery is VERY hard to prove.

Anyway, on the subject of the location of the accelerometers in the F4 test:

Ten accelerometers were positioned on top of the aircraft's fuselage, and two were placed on the engines. The rear-most accelerometer was labeled J12 and was at the very back of the tail section, about 17.5 meters from the nose.
OneWhiteEye
If it's a matter of how the points were plotted (as opposed to obtained), here are the same points plotted by an entirely different program:

User posted image

http://i24.tinypic.com/27zit13.png
David B. Benson
QUOTE (NEU-FONZE+Oct 19 2007, 05:24 PM)
The rear-most accelerometer was labeled J12 and was at the very back of the tail section, about 17.5 meters from the nose.

On the top, which is further back, or at the bottom?
OneWhiteEye
The detachment/elongation theory has some merit, both from the standpoint of a simple explanation and from the quick measurements I took. I don't have time to go into detail now, but there is a change in spatial relationship between the photo target and points below and aft. Reason unknown at this time.

Plots of the previous data, x and y, from two different programs:

User posted image

http://i20.tinypic.com/if4pxi.png
NEU-FONZE
David:

I am basing what I am posting on Figure 1 in Sugano's paper.

It shows accelerometer J12 at the end of the tail and in-line with the other accelerometers that are positined along the top of the fuselage all the way to the cockpit sensor which is labeled J1. (Except of course for the two engine sensors I mentioned previously)
David B. Benson
QUOTE (NEU-FONZE+Oct 19 2007, 05:41 PM)
It shows accelerometer J12 at the end of the tail and in-line with the other accelerometers that are positined[sic] along the top of the fuselage ....

At the bottom of the tail then.

Maybe poster OneWhiteEye might care to use his nifty techniques at that point of the aircraft?
wcelliott
I hate to be a backseat driver here, but if that data were input to Excel you could do a curve-fit and have it derive the second-order term. I know that the line looks straight, but it may be that there's substantial deceleration that's just hard to see with the high velocities present.

adoucette
QUOTE (OneWhiteEye+Oct 19 2007, 08:17 PM)
I'm sorry, I may have misunderstood your remarks. The WTC plot?

No, my bad, I meant the F4 tail plot.

What seems clear is that if the numbers Neu published from the Sugano paper are correct the deflection from a straight line should be easily visible on your plot considering Sugano claims the tail speed should slowdown as follows:

Time After First Contact / Measured Velocity / Percent Velocity Reduction
Units: (Seconds) / (m/s) / (%)

0.03; 213; 1.0;
0.04; 205; 4.7;
0.05; 196; 8.8;
0.06; 192; 10.7;
0.07; 179; 16.7;


The slowdown between 10 to 16% should occur in the last part of your plot which should generate an easy 10+ pixel deviation off a straight line.

?????

Arthur
metamars
QUOTE (NEU-FONZE+Oct 20 2007, 12:24 AM)
Arthur... I stand by what I said about Jenkins' paper.... unless of course it turns out that Sugano and Omika's papers are examples of "bad science". I have seen data falsified and sent to science/engineering journals and organizations like the ASTM for publication ..... and ACCEPTED FOR PUBLICATION... because that kind of fakery is VERY hard to prove.

Anyway, on the subject of the location of the accelerometers in the F4 test:

Ten accelerometers were positioned on top of the aircraft's fuselage, and two were placed on the engines. The rear-most accelerometer was labeled J12 and was at the very back of the tail section, about 17.5 meters from the nose.


Since the F14 is clearly exceeding the yield point of the plane's skeleton, it is rapidly fracturing. And without any analysis at all (just looking at the video), it's clear that the fracturing is near the impact point, and hence is happening repeatedly. Thought of as a one dimension rod, what seems to be happening is that the rod/plane is sequentially loaded and fractures, and during the load intervals, "conducts" longitudinal waves which register an effect in the accelerometers.

Even if the collision was not energetic enough to not fracture the plane as a whole (to attain this, you'd have to reduce the mass greatly; even this might not be sufficient), you would still need to do a sophisticated analysis to understand what was going on at 215 m/s (even adopting simplifying assumptions of the plane as a simple solid), as this is comparable to the rate of propagation of plastic waves*. From Impact - the Theory and Physical Behavior of Colliding Solids:
(p 309)
QUOTE

The term 'rapid loading tests' is applied to those investigations where the loading time, while relatively short, is still large compared to the transit time of a wave over the specimen length. Consequently, the test piece remains in a state of quasi-quilibrium, and wave propagation effects need not be considered; however, the strain rates that can be attained are necessarily limited. Such experiments have been performed either by pnewmatic loading or by attaching the head of the specimen to a motor-driven screw. Actual impact tests are capable of achieving much higher strain rates; but since the loading time is comparable to the transit time of waves in the test bar, non-uniform conditions of stress, strain, and strain rate will prevail in the specimen. Since the simultaneous recording of the transient stress and strain at a given point of the specimen has not been satisfactorily accomplished, information concerning the material behaviour must be deduced from auxiliary measurements. Such experimental results cannot be properly interpreted unless the effects of wave propagation are considered. Failure to account for these phenomena will yield only average values which bear little resemblance to the actual stress-strain variation during the test. By the same token, the data cannot be represented as a function of strain rate, but only in terms of an inital velocity for the particular equipment and specimen geometry employed.

(emphasis mine)

However, the regime of the F14 is limited velocity/high energy (enough to guarantee fracture). A serious analysis trying to model the impact will be horribly complicated. The video analysis, OTOH, ....


The logical flaw in Reynolds work is considering the plane as a rigid body, rather than one that is fracturing rapidly, and which is capable of absorbing energy as elastic waves + plastic deformation.

As for whether or not Sugano, et. al., fudged their data or just screwed up, I would say that it's not looking good for them, though I haven't followed this issue all that closely, so perhaps should not comment at all.

I wonder what an 'avanche analysis' might tell us? Anybody ever heard from Charles M. Beck?

* From memory, of which mine is not the best, plastic wave propagation speed is about 10% that of elastic waves, in steel.....
wcelliott
I've got a thought experiment that I'd like some help thinking through, especially with the math, which has never been my long suit.

Visualize a WTC tower, and assume that *all* the supports from floor 80 (holding up floors 81+) instantly vanish. My question is, what would be the acceleration upward of the floors from floor 80 down, as a function of story number?

The basic concept I'm trying to explore is that the floors and supports are like a spring-mass system, so the sudden release of the 30 floors' weight would result in sudden recoil.

The recoil of floor 80, if I'm approaching this correctly, would be the weight of 31 floors accelerating the mass of floor 80. The initial acceleration would be 30g's for floor 80. The net displacement between floor 79 and 80 would be the differential compression due to the 30 stories' weight on the steel columns. Assuming a compression of 0.0002 for the steel, that displacement would be 12 feet x 0.0002. (DBB, please advise if I'm using unrealistic numbers.) That would be 0.0288". Hardly worth mentioning, but I'm thinking these displacements will add up.

The recoil from floor 78 would be 32 floors' weight accelerating floors 79 and 80, so that would end up being 15g's, if I'm doing this right. I'd expect the displacement would be about the same amount (less, but I'm not clear how much), about 0.028 inches, which would add to the displacement, above.

We would keep up the process all the way down to the first floor, and sum up the contributions.

I'm thinking that this would result in a sudden displacement of about two inches starting out at about 30g's, but the actual solution would probably require differential equations, which I was never competent at. If I'm right, though, it would be significant, as the floor-bracket weren't capable of conveying that much force to the floors, so they'd shear.

I recognize that the baseline assumption of the supports disappearing simultaneously isn't what really happened, but it could've been approximated local to columns that were severed/transected suddenly, which did happen enough for this to be a significant phenomenon, if I'm right.
Al Khwarizmi - step-by-step
stundie:
================
You [Arthur] said this originally "So Al, how come a BUNCH of Audio Engineers have not come forward to support your view that the NOISES recorded that day HAD to have come from explosives?"

So I just showed you one. He used a comparison to the explosions of the Hudson building and similar peaks show in the WTC.

=============

The sound engineer is analyzing a clip that has a bogus over-dubbed soundtrack.
End of story, I'm afraid.
You can find the original untainted version of the clip in the CameraPlanet archives on youtube.


arthur:
============
[the metal fire is from] the pulverized remains of the plane along with bulldozed office contents.
============
Tell me how to recreate a metal fire with pulverized concrete, human bodies, clothing, and aircraft alloy.
I anticipate grey-white plumes of smoke.


Arthur :
==============
Typical HE pressure/time curve.
User posted image
http://www.oldcastleglass.com/images/misc/...description.gif

==============
QUOTE
Description
Oldcastle Glass' blast-resistant laminated glass is an excellent glazing choice in all types of buildings that may be subjected to bomb blasts. The tough plastic interlayer holds the glass together after an impact, and with the proper framing systems, the glazing will be retained in the opening. Thus, the amount of flying glass, as well as the consequential injuries, can be dramatically reduced.

The pressure from a bomb typically consists of a wave that rises almost instantaneously to a very high peak pressure that falls back to zero in a very short duration, as measured in milliseconds. For example, a 27 lb. bomb detonated from a stand-off distance of 48 ft. produces a peak pressure of 10 psi (1,440 psf) for 3.3 milliseconds. The area under the pressure time graph is called the impulse and is measured in psi-ms. Blast wave energy decreases very rapidly with distance so that the most effective protection is to increase this "stand-off" distance. However, this is not always a viable or economic option.


I think you are, like, wcelliot, terribly confused about the difference between
(i) the destructive pressure wave produced by an explosion, and
(ii) the sound produced in its wave.
Nevertheless, your assertion doesn't help wcelliots case, since a 41kHz sampling rate will provide approximately 135 samples to represent this 3.3 milisecond duration. !!!

wcelliot:
=============
One could, if the data came from a recorder with sufficient bandwidth to capture the rise-time and fall-time of an event that's all over in ten microseconds.

Zoom-in on the plot until you can see what happens to the signal microsecond-by-microsecond and let me know what the rise-time is on the initial blast.

==============

I asked you to perform exactly this analysis, but you have throw the question back in my face instead. Why? Are you afraid?

Trippy's waveform:
User posted image
ttp://www.myfilestash.com/userfiles/alreadypublished/IMG/image257_2.gif
6 seconds = 88 pixels
equalibrium to maximum amplitude = 9.5 pixels = ~0.65 seconds attack
duration of complete wave cycle = 30 pixels = ~2.05 seconds
frequency = ~0.49Hz
physical wavelength
@ 327mps (equivalent to speed of sound in air at -7.0C)
= 670.35 meters


spectral distribution: - sound produced by a linear shaped charge:
User posted image
http://www.myfilestash.com/userfiles/alrea...dist_linear.gif

spectral distribution: - 911 bomb/explosion call:
User posted image
http://www.myfilestash.com/userfiles/alrea...st_911-call.gif
(same vertical axis as first)

wcelliot - you invested a great deal of time on whacky accounting for sounds associated with the collapse of the south-tower. I have asked you at least half-a-dozen times to provide a link to the phenomena you are trying to explain. Each time you have ignored me.
Why?
Trippy
Hey Al, you dor ealize that distance traveled affects the shape of a wave form don't you? You know, that whole pesky dispersion thing.

The main purpose of posting that image wasn't for any comparison of rise times, but it was to illustrate that in an environment where there is little of no echo effects, the detonation of explosives produces the same wave form as any other single impulse sound.

Well, I can tell you that that wave form was recorded at a distance of a couple of clicks from the source (may have been more, I'm not real sure and I lack the inclination to go back and find out).

How aout commenting on the second wave form that I posted eh?

Oh, and for the record? Thermate produces a cloud of yellow smoke.

Why? Because of the Sulfur in the mixture.

You see, even though all that is required for the reaction to go ahead is the presence of SUlfur in it's liquid form, the reaction of the mixture is so strongly exothermic that it has a tendency to vaporize the sulfur present, which then does much the same thing as vaporized water, only it produces clouds of yellow smoke, rather then white steam.

And as you rightly pointed out, the smoke coming from the corner of whichever WTC tower it was that you're so fond of flashing around, the smoke there is gray.

Conclusion? There was no Thermate involved in that reaction/fire.
OneWhiteEye
QUOTE (NEU-FONZE+)
...unless of course it turns out that Sugano and Omika's papers are examples of "bad science". I have seen data falsified and sent to science/engineering journals and organizations like the ASTM for publication ...
Always a possibility. Flight of fancy: there was serious embarassment at the burn lasting into the impact... cigar chompers were looking for scapegoats even before the ink on the quick-look data was dry because millions and reputations were hanging in the balance... champagne bottles with fresh beads of dew remained corked as the question arose - "Who used the altitude figures and forgot this bird wasn't going to be flying?"

Why, the same guy that's busy fixing the accelerometer data right now!

Actually, it doesn't look like the motor has that much kick left at contact. And it's still quite a balancing act, making that nice straight line while chamber pressure in the motor is rapidly going to zero.

My natural inclination is to give these folks the benefit of the doubt, unless it becomes like a corpse in the room. Might have to say something then.

QUOTE (David B. Benson+)
Maybe poster OneWhiteEye might care to use his nifty techniques at that point of the aircraft?

Yes, my thoughts exactly. It will require a little evolution of the routine, but every step takes it closer to readiness for WTC videos. There are some really cool things to try.

QUOTE (wcelliott+)
I hate to be a backseat driver here, but if that data were input to Excel you could do a curve-fit and have it derive the second-order term. I know that the line looks straight, but it may be that there's substantial deceleration that's just hard to see with the high velocities present.
I'll try that tomorrow. Points prior to frame 6775 (contact) really need to be excluded because, obviously, different dynamics.

QUOTE (adoucette+)
The slowdown between 10 to 16% should occur in the last part of your plot which should generate an easy 10+ pixel deviation off a straight line.
Indeed, it is most curious. The magnitude you suggest sounds about right to me without calculating it. Relative to a 20x20 selection rectangle that, except for integer truncation, panned linearly across the image frame by frame, wouldn't you expect to see a tail section disconnected when you step back and look at the last frame? That isn't the case. Pictures coming.

If it weren't for the numbers showing a gradual reduction in speed, I would be advancing the idea that the accelerometers registered the bulk change right AFTER I stopped extracting position, since I can't go further when smoke starts to intrude.

QUOTE (metamars+)
Thought of as a one dimension rod, what seems to be happening is that the rod/plane is sequentially loaded and fractures, and during the load intervals, "conducts" longitudinal waves which register an effect in the accelerometers.


Interesting. Accelerometers are flaky and, as I recall, have a pretty high loss / bad data rate compared to just about every common transducer except maybe strain gages. If they're slightly off axis, the output is worthless. Likewise if they end up impinged or stressed. The output is a mish mash spectrum that needs much filtering. It's not uncommon to have one simply fall off in a test just from a little vibration, forget about smacking a wall. Of course, professionals in the instrumentation field know well what they're dealing with so that means nothing in itself.
OneWhiteEye
Looking at that last post I have to amend:

QUOTE
(wcelliott) I know that the line looks straight, but it may be that there's substantial deceleration that's just hard to see with the high velocities present.

Correction: the line looks straight because it is! Heh. No, think about it, it's just a matter of scaling. If this were a normal video and the plane were going 5mph, it would look about like this. Remember it's a dump of high speed film, the kind of reels that take a couple of seconds to wind up and would slice your hand off like butter.

Will still try the curve fit, of course.

When I said -

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
(wcelliott) I know that the line looks straight, but it may be that there's substantial deceleration that's just hard to see with the high velocities present.

Correction: the line looks straight because it is! Heh. No, think about it, it's just a matter of scaling. If this were a normal video and the plane were going 5mph, it would look about like this. Remember it's a dump of high speed film, the kind of reels that take a couple of seconds to wind up and would slice your hand off like butter.

Will still try the curve fit, of course.

When I said -

If it weren't for the numbers showing a gradual reduction in speed, I would be advancing the idea that the accelerometers registered the bulk change right AFTER I stopped extracting position, since I can't go further when smoke starts to intrude.


I must have been desperate to fill space. That makes no sense. It has been said from the start that it was reported that slowing was measurable almost from first contact. My extraction runs until the front of the tail is at the wall... can we be surprised if it decelerates by a measly 16% AS the tail itself crushes into the wall?
NEU-FONZE
Everyone:

Thanks for all the interest and great comments on the F4 crash video.

Some comments on the comments.

You could re-do the plot for the motion of the end of the aircraft at the bottom of the tail, (which was the position of the J12 sensor), but I would say its only about 1.5 meters from OneWhiteEye's marker so I doubt it would make much difference.

Sugano's plot (Figure 14) shows almost no velocity change by any of the sensors for the first 30 milliseconds. For an aircraft travelling at 215 m/s this means the first 6.45 meters of the aircraft have been crushed with essentially no deceleration of the remainder of the aircraft. This is consistent with the mass distribution of the aircraft. Sugano has a plot of this which shows that for the first 6 meters of the aircraft the mass per unit length was less than 1000 kg/m. About half-way along the aircraft, or ~ 9 meters from the nose, the mass per unit length increases to a maximum of 3000 kg/m. Hence most of the momentum transfer occurs when the aircraft section from 6 to 12 meters is being crushed. This is consistent with Sugano's velocity reduction vs. time plot, Fig 14, (which is for 5 of the 12 sensors) and shows velocity decrements of 25 m/s or more in the time interval from 30 to 60 milliseconds. This is over 10 % of the initial velocity of the aircraft and should be quite evident in OWE's plot!
einsteen
OWE,

That is indeed great work, I don't know exactly how you did it, a kind of pattern recognition program that follows the tail ?
And it is indeed linear, I don't know what the problem is concluding it is linear, I would like to see a plot of Sugano's values, if that is near-linear on the scale we are looking at then that is also fine.

The fact that the engines are still working might be relevant but cannot explain the difference, if there is a difference at all. And fitting a curve in a linear function will give a curve function that is very linear at the linear area...

This weekend I will continue with my curve impact 'paper', first have to do some damned tax papers. In this country you are working 5 months per year only for the tax.
adoucette
QUOTE (Al+)
arthur:
============
[the metal fire is from] the pulverized remains of the plane along with bulldozed office contents.
============
Tell me how to recreate a metal fire with pulverized concrete, human bodies, clothing, and aircraft alloy.
I anticipate grey-white plumes of smoke.


How about adding the conntents of a hundred or so chemical OXYGEN GENERATORS and/or aluminum alloys and/or MAGNESIUM based wheels and/or ...

Who knows?

But I'm still curious Al, since you claim that from that video you believe that it IS thermate.

Can you logically explain how you think the thermate ends up in the very corner the plane just happened to end up in?

Heck of a coincidence don't you think?


QUOTE
I think you are, like, wcelliot, terribly confused about the difference between
(i) the destructive pressure wave produced by an explosion, and
(ii) the sound produced in its wave.
Nevertheless, your assertion doesn't help wcelliots case, since a 41kHz sampling rate will provide approximately 135 samples to represent this 3.3 milisecond duration. !!!


What ASSERTION Al?

I posted that picture "without comment"

It appears that it is YOU who are trying to use a diagram of a Pressure Wave as if it was the same as the SOUND wave.

Arthur

Capracus
QUOTE (adoucette+Oct 20 2007, 01:59 PM)

QUOTE (Al+)

arthur:
============
[the metal fire is from] the pulverized remains of the plane along with bulldozed office contents.
============
Tell me how to recreate a metal fire with pulverized concrete, human bodies, clothing, and aircraft alloy.
I anticipate grey-white plumes of smoke.
How about adding the conntents of a hundred or so chemical OXYGEN GENERATORS and/or aluminum alloys and/or MAGNESIUM based wheels and/or ...
Don't forget that the entire 81st floor contained UPS batteries filled with thermite.

From: http://www.bollyn.com/index/?id=10151
QUOTE
A former employee of the bank came forward and told me that the bank had reinforced the floor in 1999 to support a very heavy load of computer back-up batteries.
See Bollyn-Fuji-WTC.html

"The whole floor was batteries," he said, "huge battery-looking things."  They were "all black" and "solid, very heavy" things, which had been brought in during the night.  They had been put in place during the summer prior to 9/11, he said.

But were they really batteries? "It's weird," he said.  "They were never turned on."

So, what really was on the 81st floor of WTC 2?  What was in these heavy "battery-looking things?"  Were they batteries, or were they Thermite?



adoucette
Eric Hufschmid on the now fugitive Chris Bollyn

http://www.erichufschmid.net/TFC/Bollyn-Broken.html

Arthur
wcelliott
QUOTE
Each time you have ignored me.
Why?


Because I have a real job, and a real life outside of this forum, and I didn't feel like wading through 100pages of this cr@p to find it. I figured that if you cared so much about it, you could wade through it yourself. Be my guest.

That blast waveform that Trippy provided that you did the attack/decay bit on was stretched-out not only by the dispersion of the atmosphere, but by multiple reflections from the ground (if it was recorded as he described it). That doesn't contradict what I've been saying, it supports it. That's the "echoes of echoes" effect, where a reflection takes a slightly longer geometric path which takes a slightly longer propagation time, and so arrives slightly later than the components that took slightly more direct paths.

The "3.3milliseconds" number at 48 feet likewise showed the effect of the echoes-of-echoes off the surrounding environment. It wasn't a "pristine" recording of just the detonation propagating through free-space, which could (if no other blunders were made) provide an actual recording of the blast-pressure-versus-time plot (i.e., characteristic sound of an explosion), but I'm gratified that the plot at least showed the rise-time as a vertical line, something you've already said was impossible. A good recording of what the explosive itself would sound like would require that the explosive have nothing else in the environment for the explosion to reflect off of, at least during the interval of interest.

All they'd have had to do would've been to suspend the explosive from a long line so that it isn't near anything else and record the sound with a microphone with bandwidth capability at or at least near 1MHz, so as to get a better idea of what that leading edge looks like. (It isn't vertical in the real world. In the recording, that's an artifact of undersampling, one sample is before the detonation happens, the next collects the average value of the complete detonation, and the next sample, the explosion is already over and all you're measuring is the hot gas passing your mike by at the speed of sound.)

In your library of sound books, you should have *some* reference that discusses the bandwidth of signals and what happens when the recording equipment has insufficient bandwidth to capture a signal with greater bandwidth. A "spike", or impulse, has energy in all spectral components (just like white noise). A C-4 detonation is a good approximation, and that's all that's possible in the real world, an approximation. An idealized spike contains all possible frequencies, including GHz, for instance, but C-4 has less bandwidth than an ideal spike, which is related to the rise-time of the blast. You can get a good first-cut estimate of a spike's peak bandwidth by looking at the steepest slope in the signal and taking 1/x of that. A one-microsecond rise time would correspond (roughly) to a 1MHz signal bandwidth. A 40kHz sampling rate will lose all the information content of the spectrum of a 1MHz signal between 20kHz and 1MHz. That's most of the explosive's "characteristic" sound energy, lost due to undersampling.

It should also be noted that explosives have a "DC" component to their spectrum, and we can't hear that, either (nor do microphones record that). So any recording of an explosion made with a microphone will have artifacts at both ends of the spectrum.

That's the reason DARPA put out an SBIR RFP for the development of a sensor capable of capturing the acoustic characteristics of explosives several years back. (I considered bidding on that one, myself.) I was going to post a link to the DARPA program, but google let me down.
metamars
QUOTE (stundie+Oct 19 2007, 04:31 PM)

This paper as been refuted by other engineers and if this is the one which he created 2 days after the attacks, then I'm going to laugh at you.

The Bazant Zhou paper proves nothing about the real world collapses, for it can prove nothing about them, having made assumptions both in favor of it's conclusion, as well as against, with no attempt to establish bounding effects of these assumptions.

Their claim of being most optimistic for survival is false, as they ignore dynamic effects. I've posted quite a bit on this. It's not even clear to me that the elastic limit was surpassed! Furthermore, from Goldsmith's Impact, I've learned that there's a certain latency before plastic flow can occur. The impacting top portion of the tower may have been slowed to below the the elastic limit in the time it would have taken for the plastic flow to begin. (I haven't checked this, but such considerations are conspicuous by their absence in the Bazant Zhou paper.)

I have it on good authority that there will be more coming on this at The Journal of 911 Studies


As for how a paper that is so wrong can make it into a peer-reviewed journal, in a nutshell: people aren't perfect, nor are they completely objective (try as they might to reach this ideal). Consider the following from Speakable and Unspeakable in quantum mechanics by J. S. Bell

QUOTE

But in 1952 I saw the impossible done. It was in papers by David Bohm. Bohm showed explicitly how parameters could indeed be introduced, into nonrelativistic wave mechanics, with the help of which the indeterministic description could be transformed into a deterministic one. More importantly, in my opinion, the subjectivity of the orthodox version, the necessary reference to the 'observer,' could be eliminated.

Moreover, the essential idea was one that had been advanced already by de Broglie in 1927, in his 'pilot wave' picture.

But why then had Born not told me of this 'pilot wave'? If only to point out what was wrong with it? Why did von Neumann not consider it? More extraordinarily, why did people go on producing 'impossibility' proofs after 1952, and as recently as 1978? When even Pauli, Rosenfeld, and Heisenberg, could produce no more devastating criticism of Bohm's version than to brand it as 'metaphysical' and 'ideological'? Why is the pilot wave picture ignored in text books? Should it not be taught, not as the only way, but as an antidote to the prevailing complacency? To show that vagueness, subjectivity, and indeterminism, are not forced on us by experimental facts, but by deliberate theoretical choice?

(emphasis mine)

I've also posted a fair amount on the peer review process, in particular with reference to Smolin's The Trouble with Physics.
adoucette
So, Metamars, when are YOU going to publish a paper REFUTING Bazant?

QUOTE (Full of Himself+)
Their claim of being most optimistic for survival is false, as they ignore dynamic effects. I've posted quite a bit on this.


ROTFLMAO

Arthur
David B. Benson
QUOTE (NEU-FONZE+Oct 20 2007, 05:34 AM)
... but I would say its only about 1.5 meters from OneWhiteEye's marker so I doubt it would make much difference.

The current working hypothesis is that the vertical stabilizer sheared at the base when the fuselage began to decelerate.
adoucette
Sorry, that dog won't hunt.

http://www.sandia.gov/images2005/f4_image2.jpg

http://www.sandia.gov/images2005/f4_image3.jpg

Given the forces that tail was designed to handle that tail wasn't going to shear off.

Arthur
David B. Benson
QUOTE (adoucette+Oct 20 2007, 01:42 PM)
http://www.sandia.gov/images2005/f4_image3.jpg

This picture suggests that the lovely side view stops being visible so early that the deceleration is not yet apparent.
adoucette
No it doesn't.

Look at the last marker on the track in this image:

http://www.sandia.gov/images2005/f4_image2.jpg

Notice the marker on the tail is visible and has not quite impacted the barrier.

Thus the tail is still attached, but note it is no longer level, it is now rotating towards the barrier.

It would appear the impact is almost over, certainly less than 0.02 seconds of completing.

It certainly appears to me that the deceleration (10 to 16% by 0.07 seconds) reported by Sugano should have been visible before the point captured in the third picture.

Arthur
quicknthedead
QUOTE (stundie+Oct 19 2007, 05:15 AM)
Hi quicknthedead,

He did the original Sonogram on the Trinity Street footage thinking it was the original. The footage he used was not the original, as it was extracted from a DVD about Mayor Guillani which was processed in Dolby 5.1

This film uses the Trinity Street footage. It was pointed out to him, so in the feedback section (Which doesn't work), he addresses this issue by finding the original Trinity Street footage. Again, he produces a sonogram and it comes back with the very same peaks.

Hope that explains it.

Cheers

Stundie

Interesting; and yes, it does.

Thanks, stundie.
quicknthedead
QUOTE (Capracus+Oct 19 2007, 06:56 AM)


QUOTE
(stundie @ Oct 19 2007, 12:06 PM)
Its a shame that Purdue in their animations do not show the wing intact.


If Purdue had done an animation of the South Tower, maybe they would have shown an intact wing.

Maybe yes, maybe no...

But we do know Purdue did an animation of the plane going into the Pentagon WITHOUT HAVING ANY ENGINES, bringing new meaning to the phrase - "the dumbing down of America".
David B. Benson
QUOTE (adoucette+Oct 20 2007, 02:42 PM)
Thus the tail is still attached, but note it is no longer level, it is now rotating towards the barrier.

Up? Left?

If rotating horizontally maybe poster OneWhiteEye's technique doesn't catch the rotation?
einsteen
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Oct 20 2007, 11:01 PM)
Up? Left?

If rotating horizontally maybe poster OneWhiteEye's technique doesn't catch the rotation?

If it rotates and the line is linear then it would accelerate if it didn't rotate.
wcelliott
QUOTE
Time After First Contact / Measured Velocity / Percent Velocity Reduction
Units: (Seconds) / (m/s) / (%)

0.03; 213; 1.0;
0.04; 205; 4.7;
0.05; 196; 8.8;
0.06; 192; 10.7;
0.07; 179; 16.7;


OK, so let's assume that the first two columns are measured correctly, and calculate the deceleration in g's instead of "%".

From first point to last, the delta-t is 0.04sec. (I'd sure like more significant digits, myself.) The delta-V is (213-179 m/s), or 34m/s. That would correspond to a deceleration of (34m/s)/(0.04sec) = 850m/s^2 or ~87g's.

When you call it 16.7% deceleration, it sounds easier to ignore than when you call it 87g's.

That seems like a lot of deceleration, to me, actually a bit more than I'd expect an airframe to be able to convey from front to back. That's about ten-times the design load, so if this were true, the F-4's airframe was overdesigned. (Then again, it was designed for carrier landings, so maybe this isn't unrealistic.)

I was going to do the same sort of calculations on the digitized data, but all I can find are frame numbers with no legend that tells me how many frames are there in a second. Could someone either provide me with that number (or do the "s=1/2*a*t^2 themselves and solve for the deceleration in g's)?
David B. Benson
Not even top gun pilots can stand 87g, IMHO.
shagster
Looks like the aft end of the fuselage is buckled badly in this pic. The section of tail fin that is still visible looks like it hasn't buckled.

http://www.sandia.gov/images2005/f4_image3.jpg


David B. Benson
Results for the first 3.99 seconds of poster OneWhiteEye's antenna tower data. Recall that 2.99 seconds has been chosen as the nominal t0, the transition from collapse initiation to progressive collapse.

CODE

mB-lin   dB= 0.0 sd= 0.420

BV-lin   dB= 0.0 sd= 0.420
BV-exp   dB= 0.1 sd= 0.427


where the three hypotheses explained below. The dB is the decibans by which the first hypothesis is better than each of the others. Barely worth mentioning. That is, there is no way to distinguish these three. The sd is the standard deviation in meters. Not great for this data.

mB-lin is the modified Beck where the force's Z multiplier is assumed to decline linearly with the drop Z,
F = Z(1-A(Zok-Z)).
BV-lin is the B & V crush-down equation with force as before.

BV-exp is the B & V crush-down equation with
F = Z(2 - A(exp(B(Z-Zok)))
so that the Z multiplier declines via an exponential growth.

Suggest some other form for the resistive force during this slow decay. If sensible I'll compare it to the others.
wcelliott
QUOTE
Not even top gun pilots can stand 87g, IMHO.


Granted, but the g's were in the direction that aircraft aren't designed to handle - along the main axis of the airframe. They aren't designed to accelerate or decelerate at 87g's, but the F-4 would've been designed to take +/-10g's routinely in the pitch axis, and maybe more to tolerate the g's associated with crashing themselves onto the deck in carrier landings.

I'm thinking that part of the 87g's was an artifact of the lack of significant figures in the time measurement (0.04 seconds), which could've been 0.036 seconds or 0.044 seconds and still be "right" when expressed as "0.04 seconds", and the other part could've been incidental to the airframe being designed for carrier landings and pulling 10g's in dogfights.

All that assumes, of course, that the velocity data given was accurate, and I'd like to see the pixels/frames data converted to meters/second before I jump to that conclusion.

Likewise, I think it's a mistake to assume that the line is straight just because it looks straight, I'd prefer having Excel do a second-order curve-fit to see what it comes up with for the acceleration term and convert that to g's before we start saying that the plane doesn't decelerate on-impact.

My main point is that even significant g's won't be obvious when velocities are high and time-scales are small.
shagster
Or maybe it's a cloud of dust? Looks like a buckled fuselage to me. I'd have to look at more pics.

User posted image
David B. Benson
QUOTE (shagster+Oct 20 2007, 05:46 PM)
Looks like the aft end of the fuselage is buckled badly in this pic.

Does that explain the accelerometer data?
metamars
QUOTE (adoucette+Oct 20 2007, 05:27 PM)
So, Metamars, when are YOU going to publish a paper REFUTING Bazant?

QUOTE (Full of Himself+)
Their claim of being most optimistic for survival is false, as they ignore dynamic effects. I've posted quite a bit on this.


ROTFLMAO

Arthur

I think you're asking the wrong question. The real question is, how is it that the Bazant Zhou paper was published to begin with, being that there was already a substantial body of knowledge re impacts that don't ignore dynamic effects? There's even a journal dedicated to the subject!

As for me, at this point in my life, I don't have the time to even research the problem adequately. (The Goldsmith book on impacts is basically bathroom reading.) For all I know, there is already a paper out there which has already worked out this problem for the cases of I beams and box columns. There is already work, experimentally tested work, that is, which studies the effects of impacts on rods.

I'm hoping that one of the forthcoming papers in the Journal of 911 Studies will cover this adequately. I'd really rather spend my meager physics time budget studying more interesting things.

Why don't you write a paper showing how Bazant Zhou is fully supported by existing research on impacts, since this is what you (apparently) believe? You can show off your mastery of physics and mathematics, which you normally hide quite well.
adoucette
laugh.gif

That's funny Metamars.

Its YOUR claim that B&Z is FALSE.

But when challenged on it your reply is
QUOTE (Metamars+)
I don't have the time to even research the problem adequately


Right, I'm sure that's what keeping you.

You are questioning MY mastery of Physics when on this board YOU have supported the idea that STEEL was VAPORIZED by MICRO-NUKES and that there was a PYROCLASTIC FLOW at GZ?,

For one of my favorites see:

http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...indpost&p=39696

laugh.gif

Once again, thanks for the laughs metamars

Arthur
OneWhiteEye
QUOTE (NEU-FONZE+Oct 20 2007, 12:34 PM)
This is over 10 % of the initial velocity of the aircraft and should be quite evident in OWE's plot!

It seems so. If a 10% reduction in velocity occurred over the span where the middle third of the plane is being crushed, it would be within the interval labeled "Wing". Since slope indicates velocity, it would take a bend downward over this interval until there was a 10% reduction. Given the initial slope, the change would surely be noticeable.
OneWhiteEye
QUOTE (einsteen+Oct 20 2007, 01:11 PM)
That is indeed great work, I don't know exactly how you did it, a kind of pattern recognition program that follows the tail ?

Thanks, einsteen. Hope things are well on the home front. Never mind, if you're doing taxes, it can't be that good.

No, I don't have a pattern recognition program, just a small script I wrote. Surprisingly simple, I'm afraid, like a center of mass calculation. The only art is in writing a discrimination function (filter, if you will) that gets called once every pixel to decide if it's appropriate to use the pixel in calculations. For the F4, it was so simple:

CODE
def includePixel(pixelObj, nX, nY, nFrame)
      pixelObj.blue < 100
end


meaning: if the pixel's blue value is 100 or more, ignore it. In the rectangle I chose for the F4 tail section, this translates into masking out the sky, the white part of the tail, and even a fair bit of the 'red' part of the checkerboard. So the extraction was only looking at the two dark squares, which is fine.

It does explain why the green dot occasionally goes up and to the right a little bit, off the center of the target - this happens when the lower dark square washes out and becomes less distinct, biasing the result towards the clearer square. It's a small error, smaller by far than the clumsy digitization that has the picture bouncing all over the place from beginning to end (intentional obfuscation?).

Small error or not, I want it to go away. It's indicative of a problem that prevents this technique from being used on the WTC video. Small error on the F4, big error on WTC. I measured almost 200 pixels of travel on the F4, what's a pixel here and there? On the WTC, I'm trying to measure 1-2 pixels. That's why I wanted to run the F4; aside from interest in the discrepancy, it provides a (mostly) controlled context for testing and verification.

Of course there are more things going on over here than what's been posted, and that ridiculously simple filter function doesn't have to be so simple. Aside from color channel logic which can be as programmatically complex as useful, there is also spatial and even temporal discrimination. Consider again the F4 tail target: knowing the lower dark square fluctuates in appearance, I can include only pixels from the upper square by screening position. Better in this case would be to maintain centers for BOTH squares and weight them equally, except maybe for those frames where the lower square is changing shape significantly. With more than one feature, any such frames that are bad for one feature can be based on only the good one. Etc, etc, etc.

In conclusion, and to reiterate, the only pattern recognition program is me. The feature behavior, environmental context and objectives are coded into executable logic.
OneWhiteEye
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Oct 20 2007, 06:49 PM)
The current working hypothesis is that the vertical stabilizer sheared at the base when the fuselage began to decelerate.

That isn't looking too good. The first picture adoucette posted clearly shows the tail section fully intact during a time when it cannot be so if the theory is to fulfill expectation (and if I understand the timeline correctly). I'd mentioned there was some distortion in the image of the tail but gave reason unknown because there are several possible causes, both non-physical (as in bad image transfer, overexposure, and so on) and physical, like...

QUOTE (adoucette+)
Thus the tail is still attached, but note it is no longer level, it is now rotating towards the barrier.
Rotation could explain the apparent 'deformation' as well. When I looked at the initial and final frames, the relationships between features had changed. Certain horizontal distances had increased disproportionately, but even more notable was that the trailing edge of the vertical stabilizer remained perfectly flush with a feature on the tail of the fuselage. Not consonant with shearing.

The apparent size of the target increased as well. I may have underestimated the effects of perspective earlier in my response to NEU-FONZE.
OneWhiteEye
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Oct 20 2007, 11:01 PM)
If rotating horizontally maybe poster OneWhiteEye's technique doesn't catch the rotation?

Yes and no. It's meant to capture x and y translations in the image plane. If rotation about a certain point results in a change in apparent position, the component of motion projected onto the image plane will be captured. The sensitivity to rotations which do not result in image plane translation of the feature center is dependent on the three dimensional shape of the underlying object.

Imagine a chessboard moving through space with arbitrary components of motion in each of the six degrees of freedom for a rigid body. This technique would almost certainly extract the motion of the center with very good precision, only slightly less so than with a sphere, for which I would expect near perfection. Excluding all other sources of error, of course.

The symmetry of both objects make it so. If I were to analyze a video of the WTC window washer tumbling through space, the plotted trajectory, while remaining contained within the projected boundary of the washer, would show epicycle-like phenomena.

On Edit: The points of the curve would not necessarily be contained within the boundary (e.g. a ring would produce a point falling in the boundary only when edge-on). They would be contained within the bounding rectangle of the feature, distinct from the selection rectangle which is essentially the active environment. Generally, for a convex simple object (no holes), the point will be well inside the boundary.
OneWhiteEye
Thus far I've not applied any filtering, even simple thresholding, to the WTC video. All the data has been totally raw and consequently exhibits varying degrees of inaccuracy which can only be approximated at best. Some of the curves show an honest characterization of the nature of motion, differing only by a scale factor which is not always constant over time (though reasonably well-behaved and usually slow to change). This, David B. Benson, are the "unknown scale factors" I mentioned some time ago and which you questioned.

The posted x and y plots of the antenna obtained through this method are an excellent example of the effect. The horizontal motion plot is very nearly accurate wrt magnitude while the vertical is not. Even so, the vertical precisely places and even partially qualifies a timeline event like the camera shake. The reason why one dimension is almost OK and the other way off stems from feature geometry and is expected.

For the horizontal dimension in the example I gave with the plots, the deflection calculated from the extraction was 0.81. I know this is still short of the true travel, and only by a few percent. A good first approximation would be proportionally increasing the resultant x data by the ratio of average brightnesses of the left and right background columns to the antenna body. I haven't done this yet because it's an intellectually dissatisfying context-specific solution. I seek a general solution that will free me even more from the tedium of parameter setup and manual intervention.

It became obvious some time ago that a single pass analysis is not sufficient. To employ more sophisticated techniques of deciding pixel inclusion, it becomes necessary to allow decision algorithms to inspect the results of previously applied heuristics and refine the decision. Clustering of pixels according to base criteria then feeds the next routine or iteration of the same routine. Features can be partitioned into sub-features and undesired pixels masked.

Then I'll have a pattern recognition program. And it still won't reveal quantitatively accurate motion for arbitrary features. Just for certain, carefully selected features.

wcelliott
QUOTE
I haven't done this yet because it's an intellectually dissatisfying context-specific solution. I seek a general solution that will free me even more from the tedium of parameter setup and manual intervention.


Well, some manual intervention is generally necessary, because even with human vision, it takes intervention to identify objects, foreground versus background...

But you can decide which feature makes the most sense to track manually, and once you do that, you can do autocorrelation to get subpixel resolution within an arbitrarily-sized window.

The process would be to select a prime example feature, then put that in a window of X*Y pixels, and have software scan this window across the image over a selected range (no need to scan the whole image) and do a pixel-by-pixel comparison for that window's starting location. The peak value in correlations will tell you where that feature has moved. You can generally get subpixel resolution from this if the feature window reference image can be enhanced in resolution, i.e., blown up and cleaned up, and when you scan this across the image, you likewise blow up the scanned part of the image by the same amount and use an interpolation algorithm to populate the blown-up image's pixels, before you do the subpixel correlation. If you start with a 10x10 feature and blow it up 10x, then clean it up (heuristically), and blow-up the image by 10x, you'll be correlating a clean 100x100 reference feature versus a blurry 100x100 image and finding the relative position that provides the best correlation, which gives you the 1/10th pixel resolution of the object's position.

There are more-general ways of approaching this, if you really want to do a PhD thesis-level effort on it. You can generalize the approach to picking the feature that has the best position information available (you wouldn't want to pick a gray area to use to correlate with), the process of blowing-up/cleaning-up the reference feature window's details can be automated/optimized (heuristics works), and there are lots of clever ways of doing that interpolation that will provide greater than 1/10th pixel registration resolution if you do something other than just straight interpolation, if you really want better performance.

The kind of image recognition that we're talking about is state-of-the-art, though, and what you're already doing is as good as what most people would actually brag about doing in robotics in an automated factory. The fact that you're actually getting good data out puts you above-par among people who're being paid to do this sort of thing full-time. (It's worth putting on your resume.)

Good stuff!
wcelliott
Incidentally, if you're interested in how human vision works, it goes about things a bit differently.

It works in the spatial-frequency domain. It seems that the optic nerve is actually a pipeline FFT processor, not a straight bundle of wires like it's generally thought. What comes out is already converted to the spatial-frequency domain.

In the spatial-frequency domain, you don't have to do that pixel-by-pixel pattern matching approach I described above, if an object is in the field-of-view, wherever it is, it's spatial-frequency characteristics are always in the same regions of the spatial-frequency domain. This is a much more efficient way of finding objects than the pattern-matching approach, but it doesn't fix everything. You still have to consider rotation of the image, an object on it's side has its spatial frequency components rotated 90degrees, too. And you have to consider the range to the object, as if it's twice as far away, its spatial frequency signature will be blown-up by a factor of 2x. But those things are easier to handle, and the vision center of the brain reflects this architecture. For instance, it's been discovered that image rotations affect the depth of the layer of the surface of the brain that gets stimulated in 15degree increments.

A Fun Fact to Know and Tell - This is why the surface of the brain is wrinkled, it allows the part of the brain that does the recognition to have more surface area than the part just below, where it formulates the pattern that needs recognizing. If you plot the architecture of the brain's processing, it looks like broccoli. The surface is where the patterns are kept. Wrinkles allow more patterns to be stored.

If you're interested, I've got a paper on how the brain works, based on an independent research project I did in grad school.

http://hometown.aol.com/aliyat/neuralarchi...manbehavior.htm
OneWhiteEye
Thanks much. I'm trying!

QUOTE (wcelliott+Oct 21 2007, 05:56 AM)

Well, some manual intervention is generally necessary, because even with human vision, it takes intervention to identify objects, foreground versus background...


Yep. Never get around it. It's pretty severe right now.

QUOTE
But you can decide which feature makes the most sense to track manually, and once you do that, you can do autocorrelation to get subpixel resolution within an arbitrarily-sized window.


This is an excellent suggestion, and the others that follow. (At the risk of sounding like an arrogant *****) I must point out there are a number of strategies of which I'm aware that I haven't mentioned let alone used. The image processing library I'm using has a find_similar_region function which is off that order, though admittedly primitive compared to other things out there. Haven't used it, I confess, mainly because it's too restrictive and has only pixel accuracy. Horrendously simple, though. Other libraries like LTI and Open Source Computer Vision Library have much more heavyweight methods and, if necessary, I will resort to those. There is a penalty (time and swollen brain) for coding with specialty libraries like that so the need will have to be considerable.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
But you can decide which feature makes the most sense to track manually, and once you do that, you can do autocorrelation to get subpixel resolution within an arbitrarily-sized window.


This is an excellent suggestion, and the others that follow. (At the risk of sounding like an arrogant *****) I must point out there are a number of strategies of which I'm aware that I haven't mentioned let alone used. The image processing library I'm using has a find_similar_region function which is off that order, though admittedly primitive compared to other things out there. Haven't used it, I confess, mainly because it's too restrictive and has only pixel accuracy. Horrendously simple, though. Other libraries like LTI and Open Source Computer Vision Library have much more heavyweight methods and, if necessary, I will resort to those. There is a penalty (time and swollen brain) for coding with specialty libraries like that so the need will have to be considerable.

The process would be to select a prime example feature, then put that in a window of X*Y pixels, and have software scan this window across the image over a selected range (no need to scan the whole image)

Got ya covered on the scanning rectangle. It's the selection rectangle I've referred to previously, recently upgraded to move between initial and final locations for the frame range. It is sufficient to use this linear interpolation for my current method even if it must be piecewise in that it will probably never pay to write software to find a target when I can see it and tell the code roughly where it is.

QUOTE
You can generally get subpixel resolution from this if the feature window reference image can be enhanced in resolution, i.e., blown up and cleaned up, and when you scan this across the image, you likewise blow up the scanned part of the image by the same amount and use an interpolation algorithm to populate the blown-up image's pixels, before you do the subpixel correlation.  If you start with a 10x10 feature and blow it up 10x, then clean it up (heuristically), and blow-up the image by 10x, you'll be correlating a clean 100x100 reference feature versus a blurry 100x100 image and finding the relative position that provides the best correlation, which gives you the 1/10th pixel resolution of the object's position.
Now, this is where it gets a little gnarly. Let's look at the topics of enlargement and enhancement separately.

There are many resampling algorithms to resize an image. I have a basic understanding of how they work and why one method is favored over another but not much beyond that. I do know that resampling (as opposed to merely resizing) produces an image better to the eye because it interpolates pixels to smoothe jagged edges and such. No information or clarity is added, obviously, though now the image is one step removed from the original data. Only a resize is faithful to the original, though again nothing is added. Ergo, I would assume that a viable enhancement upon the enlargement would be equally good, if not better, on the original.

Enhancement is another matter. I have attempted quite a number of enhancement operations to assist in eyeballing images. I admit to being wary of enhancement for automated methods, largely out of my own ignorance. I don't offhand know what to apply in this case. I keep this option open. Some might argue I'm headed that way with masking but I really do understand what I'm doing with that and feel more comfortable. There are subtle but crucial differences between the methods.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
You can generally get subpixel resolution from this if the feature window reference image can be enhanced in resolution, i.e., blown up and cleaned up, and when you scan this across the image, you likewise blow up the scanned part of the image by the same amount and use an interpolation algorithm to populate the blown-up image's pixels, before you do the subpixel correlation.  If you start with a 10x10 feature and blow it up 10x, then clean it up (heuristically), and blow-up the image by 10x, you'll be correlating a clean 100x100 reference feature versus a blurry 100x100 image and finding the relative position that provides the best correlation, which gives you the 1/10th pixel resolution of the object's position.
Now, this is where it gets a little gnarly. Let's look at the topics of enlargement and enhancement separately.

There are many resampling algorithms to resize an image. I have a basic understanding of how they work and why one method is favored over another but not much beyond that. I do know that resampling (as opposed to merely resizing) produces an image better to the eye because it interpolates pixels to smoothe jagged edges and such. No information or clarity is added, obviously, though now the image is one step removed from the original data. Only a resize is faithful to the original, though again nothing is added. Ergo, I would assume that a viable enhancement upon the enlargement would be equally good, if not better, on the original.

Enhancement is another matter. I have attempted quite a number of enhancement operations to assist in eyeballing images. I admit to being wary of enhancement for automated methods, largely out of my own ignorance. I don't offhand know what to apply in this case. I keep this option open. Some might argue I'm headed that way with masking but I really do understand what I'm doing with that and feel more comfortable. There are subtle but crucial differences between the methods.

... there are lots of clever ways of doing that interpolation that will provide greater than 1/10th pixel registration resolution if you do something other than just straight interpolation, if you really want better performance. 


Yes, indeed. It may be surprising but the method I'm already using should already net (conservatively) 1/20th of pixel. Kid you not. Ideally, much better, but not practically. I have a problem with artifacts in the form of smoke and probably refraction. Some issues with specular shine on irregular surfaces. I'm not sure at what point an enhancement algorithm fails to remove artifact and ends up changing the data. The F4 is nice because I can layer my result on top of the video and see how good it is. Some of the WTC targets are like that but with some I'll have to trust that automation is better than the eye, so having something I know inside and out will be helpful there.

Again, thanks. I appreciate the views and the brainstorming a lot, definitely not brushing this stuff off. Some of this ground I've covered already by myself but it's a lot of words. Can only clog this board but so much, you know?

PS have dabbled here and there in machine vision, neural networks, cellular automata, and related things. And I do work with raster images programmatically a lot so I can play stupid on that but I'm really not.
wcelliott
QUOTE
Some of this ground I've covered already by myself


I actually assumed that you knew most, if not all of it already, but this is a pet interest of mine, I focussed most of my graduate school efforts in this direction, but never had the chance to use much of it on-the-job, so I enjoy sharing what I can about it with others who are interested.

I think you've done some excellent work here, and I wasn't kidding about adding it to your resume. There are companies that pay big bucks when they find people capable of doing what you're doing.
David B. Benson
Fixed the computer program so now obtained decent standard deviations:

CODE

BV-exp               dB= 0.0 sd= 0.033

mB-lin               dB= 0.0 sd= 0.033
BV-lin               dB= 0.0 sd= 0.033
mB-const             dB= 0.0 sd= 0.033
BV-const             dB= 0.0 sd= 0.033


where the const resistance force functions are of the form

Z(1-A)

for constant parameter A.

Using the B & V crush-down equation with an exponential removing resistive force is the best, but not significantly so.
einsteen
I got some results but still have to work out a lot and to TeX it. It seems possible to find t(v) instead of v(t) but a plot gives also the other one of course. And maybe Maple is able to convert some things. The x(t) function seems to be hard to get. And what I didn't expect is that the mass seems to cancel out! I have to recheck everything before I upload something.

What I would like to know is the energy to crush a complete jet, from the F4 phantom we can conclude that it has enough kinetic energy to crush the jet completely, maybe even a couple of orders, then it would probably also be the case for an airplane.

My current finding is that t(v) [or v(t) if mirrored] is almost linear (not x(t)!!!!!) if there is exactly enough kinetic energy to crush the plane. If it is a couple of orders higher then the function is almost constant for a big period of time but at the end suddenly decreases. The total crush time seems not be very much large as if there was no wall, even not if there is just sufficient kinetic energy to crush it (end engines off) But I'm not finished...
NEU-FONZE
Einsteen:

What is the energy needed to crush an F4 vs a Boeing 767?

Well, according to Wierzbicki, the force to crush an aluminum cylinder with a diameter and wall thickness the size of a Boeing 767 is 15.5 MN. Multiplying by 48.5, the length of the aircraft in meters, we have 752 MJ. Thus the energy to crush a Boeing 767 traveling at 240 m/s is about 21 % of the impact energy.

For an F4 jet, the aircraft's length is 18 meters and we have to remember that the crushing force varies as the square root of the diameter of the fuselage. Since the F4 is about 1/2 the diameter of a Boeing 767 this gives an additional factor of sqrt of 2. From this type of information I estimate the energy to crush the F4 is ~ 197 MJ. The impact KE of the F4 in the Sandia test was 439 MJ, hence the energy to crush an F4 traveling at 215 m/s is about 45 % of the impact energy.
wcelliott
I don't think it makes much sense to model the F-4's airframe as an aluminum cylinder. It had a very complex space-frame with an aluminum skin.

Maybe the 767 is closer to an aluminum cylinder, but the whole comparison between that and an F-4 is apples and oranges. They both fly, but the similarities end there.
Al Khwarizmi - step-by-step
Trippy
==================
The main purpose of posting that image wasn't for any comparison of rise times,
==================

Yes it was, and the record shows this to be the case.
Please refrain from lying.

Maybe you would like to invent a new reason for showing us an INFRAsonic waveform of approximately 0.49Hz, and perhaps you might like to share the page from which you acquired the image with us for explanatory reference.

I look forward to your transparency on this issue.


Trippy:
==================
Oh, and for the record? Thermate produces a cloud of yellow smoke.
==================

Show us.


Arthur:
==================
Can you logically explain how you think the thermate ends up in the very corner the plane just happened to end up in?
Heck of a coincidence don't you think?

==================
I already answered that question of logistics---not physics---when it was thrown at me by someone without common sense several hundred desultory pages ago. I refuse to play that game.


wcelliot
==================
That blast waveform that Trippy provided that you did the attack/decay bit on was stretched-out not only by the dispersion of the atmosphere, but by multiple reflections from the ground (if it was recorded as he described it).
==================
Please stop lying to us, elliot.
Trippy did not account in any way for the production of the INFRAsonic waveforem - the one that completely contradicts your assertion about MegaHertz sampling rates.
No explanation furnished - NADA, NOTHING - ZIP.

Perhaps you can explain it, and while your at it, tell us HOW MANY SAMPLES a 44.1kHz sampling rate will provide over the 3.3 MILLISECONDS referenced in Arthur's unreferenced (I referenced it for you) blast wave -- a wave that ALSO CONTRADICTS your usubstantiated ipse dixit MEGAHERTZ ULTRASONIC ASSERTION.

Reference your claims, buddy.
Trippy
QUOTE (Al Khwarizmi - step-by-step+Oct 22 2007, 07:16 PM)
Trippy
==================
The main purpose of posting that image wasn't for any comparison of rise times,
==================

Yes it was, and the record shows this to be the case.
Please refrain from lying.

Maybe you would like to invent a new reason for showing us an INFRAsonic waveform of approximately 0.49Hz, and perhaps you might like to share the page from which you acquired the image with us for explanatory reference.

I look forward to your transparency on this issue.


I don't care what your opinion of my intentions was.

And I notice you still have not addressed the second sonogram I posted.

If I remember rightly, the picture of the N shaped wave that I posted was recorded from the detonation of explosive ordanance (might have been some mines, I'm not real sure at the moment) and it was recorded from a distance of several kilometers.

Again, back to the secon sonogram I posted.

Quit dancing around the issue.

QUOTE (Al Khwarizmi - step-by-step+Oct 22 2007, 07:16 PM)
Trippy:
==================
Oh, and for the record? Thermate produces a cloud of yellow smoke.
==================

Show us.


Here's an image of a diagonal thermate cutter being used at ground zero. Note the colour of the smoke.

User posted image
User posted image

The second image is the results of the cutting. Notice the Yellow residue.

I also explained to you in plain simple language, the reason why Thermate smoke should be yellow.

Thermate contains sulfur. The Thermate reaction requires the sulfur to be in its liquid form. The reactionis highly exothermic and vaporizes a proportion of the sulfur. The sulfur moves away from the heat source, and condenses, then finally crystalizes. The smoke produced by Thermate is Yellow for the same reason that soot it black.
Al Khwarizmi - step-by-step
D N A

CHARLES GOYETTE: Back to the phones - Pete in Phoenix this morning.
Pete?

PETE: What about the 7 hijackers, 7-9 hijackers that were reported in the British press, who came forward and said, "We're alive! What are we doing on the FBIs' list of so-called hijackers? We're alive and well."
How do you explain that one.

DAVIN COBURN: Actually, my explanation for that is that I have read that one BBC report that claims...

PETE: It was more than one BBC report...

DAVIN COBURN: But actualy it's not. Uh, that's the one thing that we've found, and that was absolutely one of those things that we looked into, I promise you. I mean that's, that would be...

PETE: Are you saying that that's false?

DAVIN COBURN: I am saying that is false.

PETE: Okay, how did you verify that?

DAVIN COBURN: I'm ... have you seen any other reports beyond...
QUOTE
=========================================================
FBI Chief Raises New Doubts Over Hijackers' Identities
LA Times
21 September 2001
, by LISA GETTER
=========================================================
Hijack 'suspects' alive and well
BBC,  23 September, 2001
=========================================================
FBI denies mix-up of 9-11 terrorists
Stands by original list even though some ID'd are still alive
Timothy W. Maier, Insight/World News Daily, June 13, 2003
==========================================================
PETE: Let me ask you my question again: How did you verify it's false?
Just because you don't want to believe it's true....

CHARLES GOYETTE: Okay Pete, you asked him a question, now let's find out what his answer is. Real simple question:
How did you verify that the British story was false?

DAVIN COBURN: The remains of the hijackers who have been widely understood to have been on those planes.

PETE: What remains?

DAVIN COBURN: There was DNA evidence collected all over the place.

PETE: The building was incinerated, the concrete was turned into powder, there were molten pools of steel in the bottom of the building that were still hot weeks after -- and they were able to do autopsies on bodies????
Are you insane?

DAVIN COBURN: Have you seen photos of these hijackers that you're talking about.

PETE: Were are the autopsy reports you're referring to on the hijackers?
Were are those reports? I haven't heard anything about autopsies.

DAVIN COBURN: Particularly out of the Pentagon, actually...

CHARLES GOYETTE: Well I want to know, even if we presume you're correct that they recovered the DNA of the 19 hijackers from the rubble, were did they get their original DNA against which to match it??

DAVIN COBURN: My point, uh....

CHARLES GOYETTE: No --- don't go to your point, go to my point.
Where'd they get the original DNA of a bunch of Middle Eastern Islamic madmen?
Where'd they get the DNA?
Had they submitted the DNA before they, eh - I mean....where the hell did they get it??
I mean, you're not even talking sensibly with me.

DAVIN COBURN: Off the top of my head, I don't know the answer to that one.
CHARLES GOYETTE: Of course you don't!
DAVIN COBURN: I'll get back to you with it.
CHARLES GOYETTE: Is that a promise?
DAVIN COBURN: I will do my best.
=========================================================



re: Free-Fall - Stundie and Kausel vs. Arthur:
============================================
No Stundie, they use it in the sense that 14 or 15 seconds is NEAR the ~9 seconds that freefall would take and as has been shown on this board, is ~ what one would expect based on a physics based analysis.
============================================

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
=========================================================
FBI Chief Raises New Doubts Over Hijackers' Identities
LA Times
21 September 2001
, by LISA GETTER
=========================================================
Hijack 'suspects' alive and well
BBC,  23 September, 2001
=========================================================
FBI denies mix-up of 9-11 terrorists
Stands by original list even though some ID'd are still alive
Timothy W. Maier, Insight/World News Daily, June 13, 2003
==========================================================
PETE: Let me ask you my question again: How did you verify it's false?
Just because you don't want to believe it's true....

CHARLES GOYETTE: Okay Pete, you asked him a question, now let's find out what his answer is. Real simple question:
How did you verify that the British story was false?

DAVIN COBURN: The remains of the hijackers who have been widely understood to have been on those planes.

PETE: What remains?

DAVIN COBURN: There was DNA evidence collected all over the place.

PETE: The building was incinerated, the concrete was turned into powder, there were molten pools of steel in the bottom of the building that were still hot weeks after -- and they were able to do autopsies on bodies????
Are you insane?

DAVIN COBURN: Have you seen photos of these hijackers that you're talking about.

PETE: Were are the autopsy reports you're referring to on the hijackers?
Were are those reports? I haven't heard anything about autopsies.

DAVIN COBURN: Particularly out of the Pentagon, actually...

CHARLES GOYETTE: Well I want to know, even if we presume you're correct that they recovered the DNA of the 19 hijackers from the rubble, were did they get their original DNA against which to match it??

DAVIN COBURN: My point, uh....

CHARLES GOYETTE: No --- don't go to your point, go to my point.
Where'd they get the original DNA of a bunch of Middle Eastern Islamic madmen?
Where'd they get the DNA?
Had they submitted the DNA before they, eh - I mean....where the hell did they get it??
I mean, you're not even talking sensibly with me.

DAVIN COBURN: Off the top of my head, I don't know the answer to that one.
CHARLES GOYETTE: Of course you don't!
DAVIN COBURN: I'll get back to you with it.
CHARLES GOYETTE: Is that a promise?
DAVIN COBURN: I will do my best.
=========================================================



re: Free-Fall - Stundie and Kausel vs. Arthur:
============================================
No Stundie, they use it in the sense that 14 or 15 seconds is NEAR the ~9 seconds that freefall would take and as has been shown on this board, is ~ what one would expect based on a physics based analysis.
============================================

[Kausel] also performed some computer simulations that indicate the building material fell almost unrestricted at nearly the speed of free-falling objects. "The towers' resistive systems played no role. Otherwise the elapsed time of the fall would have been extended," he noted. As it was, the debris took about nine seconds to reach the ground from the top.
- Steven Ashley, When the Twin Towers Fell, Scientific American, October 09, 2001


Can buildings retrospectively fall with less haste each year?



Arthur:
==========
Finally, what you IGNORE is that descriptions of EXPLOSIONS are not the same as EVIDENCE of EXPLOSIVES.
==========
If it ejects dust jets and debris horizontally at an extremely high velocity, it walks like a duck.
If it produces a crash-boom-rumble that sounds like an explosion, it quacks like a duck.
If it produces a blast that knocks people off their feet, it probably is a duck.

What you IGNORE is that evidence of EXPLOSIVES is the same as EVIDENCE of EXPLOSIVES.

What would constitute evidence for use of explosives in your mind?
==================


for wcelliot: - 3.3 milliseconds of whitenoise encoded at 44.1kHz:
User posted image
(click to enlarge)
==================


Addendum - I am not gouing to let you bait and switch your way out of this, Trippy, so I repeat.....
Trippy:
==================
The main purpose of posting that image wasn't for any comparison of rise times,
==================

Yes it was, and the record shows this to be the case.
Please refrain from lying.

Maybe you would like to invent a new reason for showing us an INFRAsonic waveform of approximately 0.49Hz, and perhaps you might like to share the page from which you acquired the image with us for explanatory reference.

I look forward to your transparency on this issue.
Al Khwarizmi - step-by-step
Also, Trippy, learn to REFERENCE YOUR CLAIMS.

I can not find such a thing as a "thermate cutter" for sale anywhere on earth.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22thermate+cutter%22
QUOTE
Did you mean: "thermite cutter" 

In the Name of All who Died on 9/11, We Must Act Now « Friends of ...
After all, how would the FDNY know that Building 7 was rigged with thousands of thermate cutter charges to “pull”? Does that not suggest that the FDNY ...
21stcenturycicero.wordpress.com/2007/09/11/in-the-name-of-all-who-died-on-911-we-must-act-now/ - 156k - Cached - Similar pages

TruthBurn: Updates Sept. 6, 2007
I did get one bid from a shadowy tech person with ex-defense contacts in Virginia to build 2 sol-gel thermate cutter charges. The price was $10000.00 per ...
911truthburn.blogspot.com/2007/09/updates-sept-4-2007.html - 91k - Cached - Similar pages

BPVideo
I believe that the proposal I outline here can draw more attention to the notion of thermate cutter charges being used to bring down the World Trade ...
bpathvideo.blogspot.com/ - 43k - Cached - Similar pages

Forums - WTC molten metal question...
Thermate cutter charges, used by the US military, used on the WTC towers and ... There is no scientific way to disapprove that thermate cutter charges were ...
www.rottentomatoes.com/vine/showthread.php?t=480283 - 53k - Cached - Similar pages

Re: metallic microspheres 5% of WTC dust
But that would seem to imply that there were thermate cutter charges ... thermate cutter charges all over the place. Hence if the cutter charges ...
sci.tech-archive.net/Archive/sci.physics/2007-06/msg00109.html - 10k - Cached - Similar pages

and - "Your search - "thermite cutter torch" - did not match any documents."
and - "Your search - "thermate cutter torch" - did not match any documents."

Capice??

REFERENCE YOUR CLAIMS.
Trippy
QUOTE (Al Khwarizmi - step-by-step+Oct 22 2007, 07:48 PM)
Also, Trippy, learn to REFERENCE YOUR CLAIMS.

I can not find such a thing as a "thermate cutter" for sale anywhere on earth.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22thermate+cutter%22

and - "Your search - "thermite cutter torch" - did not match any documents."
and - "Your search - "thermate cutter torch" - did not match any documents."

Capice??

REFERENCE YOUR CLAIMS.

You seriously expect to be able to purchase military ordinance over ther internet?

laugh.gif

I had enough trouble finding the physical data for HMX. There are some things that the military generally don't like sharing.

But what precisely is it that you're disputing?

If you must know, the images came from the debunking 9-11 website, because that was the only place I could anything.

If those aren't thermate cutting charges, then what, precisely do you propose they are?

You can't have looked very hard, because here's the US DOD patent for using thermite and thermite mixtures for the destruction of metallic structures.

http://www.dodtechmatch.com/DOD/Patent/Pat...tion&id=6766744

Specifically:

QUOTE
A device with greater penetration capabilities is the "Thermite Destructive Device," U.S. Pat. No. 5,698,812 issued Dec. 16, 1997 to Eugene Song. This device was designed to create a forceful jet of molten iron through an opening at the bottom of the containing vessel. One grenade containing approximately 350 g of thermate-TH3 charge is capable of burning through a sheet of 1-inch thick steel plate in about 8 second reaction time. The device utilizes a central core-burning configuration to direct the molten products through an orifice at the bottom of the device.


Here's another patent addressing Thermate cutting charges:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5698812.html


Most of the information available relates to the AN-M14 which is the DEMOLITION CHARGE that the US DOD uses for dealing with unexploded ordinance (It takes the form of a grenade).

And finally, here's a technical discussion on the thermal cutting of steel, and the methods used cleaning up at ground zero.

http://11-settembre.blogspot.com/2007/02/t...ut-thermal.html
NEU-FONZE
Trippy:

Thermite/thermate does NOT produce yellow smoke because of the presence of sulfur!

First of all, sulfur additions to thermite to make thermate are around 2% by weight. That makes sulfur a MINOR ingredient.

Upon ignition, the sulfur in thermate will burn/oxidize to SO2 which is colorless.

The smoke from thermite/thermate is mostly white Al2O3.

If any redish/orange/yellow smoke IS produced when thermite is used to cut steel this is from the iron oxides present in the thermite reaction.

I suspect the iron-worker in the photo you posted is using a thermal (oxygen) lance, not thermite/thermate!
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