QUOTE
"you couldn't have paid a demolition crew to bring them down straighter"
2:10
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| "you couldn't have paid a demolition crew to bring them down straighter" |
2:10
Big sections of Iron, they were literally on fire on the other end, would hit the air and burst into flames. Which was pretty spooky to see.
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 3 2007, 11:39 PM)

http://oceanmirage.homestead.com/Fig971.html
Like I said, the fire were almost out
Yeah, those fires look ALMOST OUT.
Friggin AMAZING.
All you are showing is your ability to ignore the obvious.
Arthur
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 4 2007, 07:21 AM)
Yeah, those fires look ALMOST OUT.
Friggin AMAZING.
All you are showing is your ability to ignore the obvious.
Arthur
I have to agree some one posting material dropping from a building at 1000c and claiming the fire is almost out is insane!
The very pictures that he posts show him to be lying, and since the outside of the building would not have been where the largest fires would have been located, he doubles his insanity, by claiming that pictures from the perimeter are proof of dying fires inside.
What happened to he intelligent Cters that used to at least provide some intelligent argument have they all died or something?
According to CT'ers if the fires weren't spilling out of the building or visible through the black smoke, they didn't exist.
But people don't throw themselves out of a 100 story window unless the conditions are hellish.
The statement that "the fires were almost out" is absurd, and RW knows this (as did Foxx) but neither seeks the truth, they only repeat these lies to try to deflect blame from Atta and company onto a US govt led conspiracy.
Both are pathetic excuses.
I don't think the CT'ers are necessarily semi-intelligent, as I don't think many actually believe the BS they spread. Disinformation agents aren't required to actualy BELIEVE their stories, just to spread them.
Which is why there are no Peer Reviewed papers that support the CT'ers views, they KNOW that their views would not stand up to scientific scrutiny.
Arthur
But people don't throw themselves out of a 100 story window unless the conditions are hellish.
The statement that "the fires were almost out" is absurd, and RW knows this (as did Foxx) but neither seeks the truth, they only repeat these lies to try to deflect blame from Atta and company onto a US govt led conspiracy.
Both are pathetic excuses.
I don't think the CT'ers are necessarily semi-intelligent, as I don't think many actually believe the BS they spread. Disinformation agents aren't required to actualy BELIEVE their stories, just to spread them.
Which is why there are no Peer Reviewed papers that support the CT'ers views, they KNOW that their views would not stand up to scientific scrutiny.
Arthur
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Mar 2 2007, 10:04 PM)
And being a troother he should be aware of Greening's work...
Yeah, like when Greening told Prof. Jones that he had no idea why WTC 7 should collapse.
Agent_X:
Well, NIST have had over 5 years to explain the collapse of WTC 7 and we are still waiting to hear what those guys think!
NF
Well, NIST have had over 5 years to explain the collapse of WTC 7 and we are still waiting to hear what those guys think!
NF
Which is pretty poor considering your run of the mill uneducated TROOTHER can tell JUST BY LOOKING.
Arthur
Arthur
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 4 2007, 03:36 PM)
According to CT'ers if the fires weren't spilling out of the building or visible through the black smoke, they didn't exist.
But people don't throw themselves out of a 100 story window unless the conditions are hellish.
The statement that "the fires were almost out" is absurd, and RW knows this (as did Foxx) but neither seeks the truth, they only repeat these lies to try to deflect blame from Atta and company onto a US govt led conspiracy.
Both are pathetic excuses.
I don't think the CT'ers are necessarily semi-intelligent, as I don't think many actually believe the BS they spread. Disinformation agents aren't required to actualy BELIEVE their stories, just to spread them.
Which is why there are no Peer Reviewed papers that support the CT'ers views, they KNOW that their views would not stand up to scientific scrutiny.
Arthur
And Arthur(s) know that, according to OCT, the remaining fuel that didn't ignite outside the building upon impact, supposedly went down elevator shafts to cause devistating damage to lower floors. This left little fuel for fires above: computers, desks, carpet, etc.
But people don't throw themselves out of a 100 story window unless the conditions are hellish.
The statement that "the fires were almost out" is absurd, and RW knows this (as did Foxx) but neither seeks the truth, they only repeat these lies to try to deflect blame from Atta and company onto a US govt led conspiracy.
Both are pathetic excuses.
I don't think the CT'ers are necessarily semi-intelligent, as I don't think many actually believe the BS they spread. Disinformation agents aren't required to actualy BELIEVE their stories, just to spread them.
Which is why there are no Peer Reviewed papers that support the CT'ers views, they KNOW that their views would not stand up to scientific scrutiny.
Arthur
And Arthur(s) know that, according to OCT, the remaining fuel that didn't ignite outside the building upon impact, supposedly went down elevator shafts to cause devistating damage to lower floors. This left little fuel for fires above: computers, desks, carpet, etc.
QUOTE (Agent_X+Mar 4 2007, 04:36 PM)
Yeah, like when Greening told Prof. Jones that he had no idea why WTC 7 should collapse.
Dr. Jones does not know why world trade center 7 collapsed that was evident in my personal conversation with him.
He did not think a hydrogen reaction from Aluminum was possible such a reaction can ignite the carbon defused in the air in a diesel fuel fire causing an explosion.
He discounted it because he sprayed aluminum with water in a furnace and did not get a hydrogen reaction.
I dropped molten aluminum though a grating above standing water and nearly killed myself.
Dr. Jones did not understand the basic principal about aluminum reactions, that you have to get past the oxide coating to have a reaction, that is how thermite and all aluminum reactions work.
Dr Jones did not understand the very scientific principals he was proposing and it only took me a few seconds to see that, in one telephone conversation!
When you mention Dr. Jones your wasting our time!
Dr. Jones does not know why world trade center 7 collapsed that was evident in my personal conversation with him.
He did not think a hydrogen reaction from Aluminum was possible such a reaction can ignite the carbon defused in the air in a diesel fuel fire causing an explosion.
He discounted it because he sprayed aluminum with water in a furnace and did not get a hydrogen reaction.
I dropped molten aluminum though a grating above standing water and nearly killed myself.
Dr. Jones did not understand the basic principal about aluminum reactions, that you have to get past the oxide coating to have a reaction, that is how thermite and all aluminum reactions work.
Dr Jones did not understand the very scientific principals he was proposing and it only took me a few seconds to see that, in one telephone conversation!
When you mention Dr. Jones your wasting our time!
Actually NIST gives a pretty good breakdown of the fuel.
Jets, paricularly large jets on transcontinental flights carry a LOT of fuel.
There was plenty of fuel to have approx 1/3 burn up outside, ~2/3s spread across multiple floors ignigting multiple floor fires and multiple areas per floor, and still leave hundreds of gallons to go down the elevator shafts.
Arthur
Jets, paricularly large jets on transcontinental flights carry a LOT of fuel.
There was plenty of fuel to have approx 1/3 burn up outside, ~2/3s spread across multiple floors ignigting multiple floor fires and multiple areas per floor, and still leave hundreds of gallons to go down the elevator shafts.
Arthur
QUOTE (roves shill+Mar 4 2007, 06:01 PM)
And Arthur(s) know that, according to OCT, the remaining fuel that didn't ignite outside the building upon impact, supposedly went down elevator shafts to cause devistating damage to lower floors. This left little fuel for fires above: computers, desks, carpet, etc.
That has got to be the dumbest post yet by a Cter, you win the booby prize, Air is only 20 percent oxygen the fuel can not all ignite as combustion is a chemical reaction requiring oxygen!
PS. the Carpets and Desks and computers and human bodies are all flammable as are other elements even aluminum sheeting and wire and the steel of the ventilation, air handling systems as well as the carbon black in the smoke.
I can go on but the combustion fuel sources were many and diverse, some did not even produce smoke or flame.
The greatest concentration of flammables was the contents of the buildings not the fuels that set them ablaze.
That has got to be the dumbest post yet by a Cter, you win the booby prize, Air is only 20 percent oxygen the fuel can not all ignite as combustion is a chemical reaction requiring oxygen!
PS. the Carpets and Desks and computers and human bodies are all flammable as are other elements even aluminum sheeting and wire and the steel of the ventilation, air handling systems as well as the carbon black in the smoke.
I can go on but the combustion fuel sources were many and diverse, some did not even produce smoke or flame.
The greatest concentration of flammables was the contents of the buildings not the fuels that set them ablaze.
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 3 2007, 11:21 PM)
Yeah, those fires look ALMOST OUT.
Friggin AMAZING.
All you are showing is your ability to ignore the obvious.
Arthur
We have a new Baghdad Bob!
What NIST claimed (supposedly peer Reviewed) :
QUOTE
9:45 a.m. to Collapse of WTC 2 at 9:58:59 a.m.
Near the start of the period several small fires were observed for the first time near the center of the cold spot on the north face at the 81st and 82nd floors. Fires elsewhere on the face were generally dying down at this time.
Near the start of the period several small fires were observed for the first time near the center of the cold spot on the north face at the 81st and 82nd floors. Fires elsewhere on the face were generally dying down at this time.
As the photos I posted show!
NISTNCSTAR1-5 page 34
Why don't you see if you can find a few more OCT'er to lose all credibility and support your BS?
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 4 2007, 06:17 PM)
We have a new Baghdad Bob!
What NIST claimed:
As the photos I posted show!
NISTNCSTAR1-5 page 34
Why don't you see if you can find a few more OCT'er to lose all credibility and support your BS?
Not worth my time, your going only by observed fires the unobserved interior fires could have been much more intense and you know it.
Can you observe the trillions of neutrinos right now streaking though your body? Does the fact that you can not see them mean that they are not there?
The same applies to the fires fires move in response to the environment they are in, and also fire could have damaged the buildings beyond the critical points and then die and the buildings still collapse.
Your arguments are therefore nothing but straw man fantasy, because they are only supported by your lack of knowledge!
What NIST claimed:
As the photos I posted show!
NISTNCSTAR1-5 page 34
Why don't you see if you can find a few more OCT'er to lose all credibility and support your BS?
Not worth my time, your going only by observed fires the unobserved interior fires could have been much more intense and you know it.
Can you observe the trillions of neutrinos right now streaking though your body? Does the fact that you can not see them mean that they are not there?
The same applies to the fires fires move in response to the environment they are in, and also fire could have damaged the buildings beyond the critical points and then die and the buildings still collapse.
Your arguments are therefore nothing but straw man fantasy, because they are only supported by your lack of knowledge!
QUOTE (FactCheck+Mar 4 2007, 07:41 PM)
Some great evidence of heavy fires...
http://www.debunking911.com/fire2.htm
http://www.debunking911.com/fire3.htm
http://www.debunking911.com/fire4.htm
http://www.debunking911.com/genfires.htm
http://www.debunking911.com/fire.htm
http://www.debunking911.com/fires.htm
CSpaminnn!!!!
http://www.debunking911.com/fire2.htm
http://www.debunking911.com/fire3.htm
http://www.debunking911.com/fire4.htm
http://www.debunking911.com/genfires.htm
http://www.debunking911.com/fire.htm
http://www.debunking911.com/fires.htm
CSpaminnn!!!!
Here's something of interest to everyone:
http://www.archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-75-657-36...le_rock_blasted
This is a video clip of the world's largest man-made explosion. It was carried out at a place called Ripple Rock in Seymour Narrows B.C. Canada on April 5th 1958. It was designed to destroy an underwater rock formation that was a hazard to shipping.
What is so interesting about this explosion is that it pulverized 370,000 tons of rock and shot debris 1000 feet into the air.
It involved the detonation of 1375 tons of high explosives.
Now the CDers believe that a bunch of "insiders" did something similar to the Twin Towers but managed to pull it off with less than 40 tons of high explosives.
NF
http://www.archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-75-657-36...le_rock_blasted
This is a video clip of the world's largest man-made explosion. It was carried out at a place called Ripple Rock in Seymour Narrows B.C. Canada on April 5th 1958. It was designed to destroy an underwater rock formation that was a hazard to shipping.
What is so interesting about this explosion is that it pulverized 370,000 tons of rock and shot debris 1000 feet into the air.
It involved the detonation of 1375 tons of high explosives.
Now the CDers believe that a bunch of "insiders" did something similar to the Twin Towers but managed to pull it off with less than 40 tons of high explosives.
NF
At a speed of a mere 5.4 m/s the top block of WTC 1 had acquired enough kinetic energy to overcome the resistance actually offered to the descent of the crushing mass. As I said yesterday, this occurred after 0.8 seconds of sensible motion, when the top block had tilted about 3.5 arc-degrees and the average drop was about 1/2 story.
NEU-FONZE --- High explosives, indeed. The most damning aspect of troothers is that they completely ignore the bowing in of the walls (when they don't simply deny it occurred, that is).
So here is an important instability, the one which finally led to the collapse of the towers, ignored.
See no bowing in, hear no bowing in, speak no bowing in.
Doesn't seem to me to be a search for truth...
So here is an important instability, the one which finally led to the collapse of the towers, ignored.
See no bowing in, hear no bowing in, speak no bowing in.
Doesn't seem to me to be a search for truth...
QUOTE (FactCheck+Mar 4 2007, 11:41 AM)
Some great evidence of heavy fires...
http://www.debunking911.com/fire2.htm
http://www.debunking911.com/fire3.htm
http://www.debunking911.com/fire4.htm
http://www.debunking911.com/genfires.htm
http://www.debunking911.com/fire.htm
http://www.debunking911.com/fires.htm
CS didn’t have any credibility to lose. Every time he gets Bitch Slapped to hard he morphs into another user.
RS, I almost forgot his Cspam user.
Arthurs, Why don't you see if ScottS will support your BS , all I have seen from him is Negative comments in my feedback?
You think you have Credibility, Ha that is a good one.
Can you name an explosive that would survive the fires, and the impact and could be triggered remotely?
Your theory has to have validity and yours has none!
PS. the only person you have Bitched slapped here is yourself, the funny part is you do not see how but others do!
Grumpy is totally wrong were not scraping the bottom of the barrel on the Cters here, were already into the septic tank on them!
http://www.debunking911.com/fire2.htm
http://www.debunking911.com/fire3.htm
http://www.debunking911.com/fire4.htm
http://www.debunking911.com/genfires.htm
http://www.debunking911.com/fire.htm
http://www.debunking911.com/fires.htm
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 4 2007, 10:17 AM)
We have a new Baghdad Bob!
Why don't you see if you can find a few more OCT'er to lose all credibility and support your BS?
CS didn’t have any credibility to lose. Every time he gets Bitch Slapped to hard he morphs into another user.
RS, I almost forgot his Cspam user.
Arthurs, Why don't you see if ScottS will support your BS , all I have seen from him is Negative comments in my feedback?
Why don't you see if you can find a few more OCT'er to lose all credibility and support your BS?
CS didn’t have any credibility to lose. Every time he gets Bitch Slapped to hard he morphs into another user.
RS, I almost forgot his Cspam user.
Arthurs, Why don't you see if ScottS will support your BS , all I have seen from him is Negative comments in my feedback?
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 4 2007, 10:30 PM)
CS didn’t have any credibility to lose. Every time he gets Bitch Slapped to hard he morphs into another user.
RS, I almost forgot his Cspam user.
Arthurs, Why don't you see if ScottS will support your BS , all I have seen from him is Negative comments in my feedback?
You think you have Credibility, Ha that is a good one.
Can you name an explosive that would survive the fires, and the impact and could be triggered remotely?
Your theory has to have validity and yours has none!
PS. the only person you have Bitched slapped here is yourself, the funny part is you do not see how but others do!
Grumpy is totally wrong were not scraping the bottom of the barrel on the Cters here, were already into the septic tank on them!
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Mar 4 2007, 02:05 PM)
NEU-FONZE --- High explosives, indeed. The most damning aspect of troothers is that they completely ignore the bowing in of the walls (when they don't simply deny it occurred, that is).
So here is an important instability, the one which finally led to the collapse of the towers, ignored.
See no bowing in, hear no bowing in, speak no bowing in.
Doesn't seem to me to be a search for truth...
DBB, first show how a truss that is disconnected can pull in a wall ?
NIST shows quite clearly (as Arthurs pointed out) that the trusses that have buckled are also disconnected.
I realize this is not important in your math model.
So here is an important instability, the one which finally led to the collapse of the towers, ignored.
See no bowing in, hear no bowing in, speak no bowing in.
Doesn't seem to me to be a search for truth...
DBB, first show how a truss that is disconnected can pull in a wall ?
NIST shows quite clearly (as Arthurs pointed out) that the trusses that have buckled are also disconnected.
I realize this is not important in your math model.
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 4 2007, 11:10 PM)
NIST shows quite clearly (as Arthurs pointed out) that the trusses that have buckled are also disconnected.
I realize this is not important in your math model.
Where did you ever find such a statement?
The buckled trusses have a form of disconnection at the knuckles, but not at the truss seats. That is to say, such are still connected firmly to the walls and the core.
I am pleased that you understand that the one-dimensional models do not attempt to capture all aspects of reality, just those aspects important in an idealized progressive collapse.
I realize this is not important in your math model.
Where did you ever find such a statement?
I am pleased that you understand that the one-dimensional models do not attempt to capture all aspects of reality, just those aspects important in an idealized progressive collapse.
QUOTE (Chainsaw+,Mar 4 2007, 03:10 PM)
You think you have Credibility, Ha that is a good one.
Can you name an explosive that would survive the fires, and the impact and could be triggered remotely?
Your theory has to have validity and yours has none!
PS. the only person you have Bitched slapped here is yourself, the funny part is you do not see how but others do!
Grumpy is totally wrong were not scraping the bottom of the barrel on the Cters here, were already into the septic tank on them!
Chainsaw , Is hunting for the imaginary fires without smoke or flames starting to frustrate you?
Go start a steel beam on fire and let everyone know how easy it is.
You didn't comment on this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOSZ5nVfc8Q
Can you name an explosive that would survive the fires, and the impact and could be triggered remotely?
Your theory has to have validity and yours has none!
PS. the only person you have Bitched slapped here is yourself, the funny part is you do not see how but others do!
Grumpy is totally wrong were not scraping the bottom of the barrel on the Cters here, were already into the septic tank on them!
Chainsaw , Is hunting for the imaginary fires without smoke or flames starting to frustrate you?
Go start a steel beam on fire and let everyone know how easy it is.
You didn't comment on this:
QUOTE
Big sections of Iron, they were literally on fire on the other end, would hit the air and burst into flames. Which was pretty spooky to see.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOSZ5nVfc8Q
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Mar 4 2007, 03:22 PM)
Where did you ever find such a statement?
The buckled trusses have a form of disconnection at the knuckles, but not at the truss seats. That is to say, such are still connected firmly to the walls and the core.
I am pleased that you understand that the one-dimensional models do not attempt to capture all aspects of reality, just those aspects important in an idealized progressive collapse.
See NIST NCSTAR 1-6D Fig 2-36 location of inward pull forces - South Face WTC 1 between 80 & 90 minutes. (Which also shows the few disconnects)
Arthur
On the two floors that NIST shows the disconnects and the Extreme truss sagging (2 or 3 per floor) the trusses are disconnected.
Please, try to keep up!
I am pleased that you understand that the one-dimensional models do not attempt to capture all aspects of reality, just those aspects important in an idealized progressive collapse.
QUOTE (adoucette+Feb 27 2007, 09:22 PM)
See NIST NCSTAR 1-6D Fig 2-36 location of inward pull forces - South Face WTC 1 between 80 & 90 minutes. (Which also shows the few disconnects)
Arthur
On the two floors that NIST shows the disconnects and the Extreme truss sagging (2 or 3 per floor) the trusses are disconnected.
Please, try to keep up!
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 4 2007, 11:33 PM)
On the two floors that NIST shows the disconnects and the Extreme truss sagging (2 or 3 per floor) the trusses are disconnected.
Wrong again!
South face:
Floors 95--99 exhibit pull-in. That is (count carefully now) five floors, not two.
On these floors, a few (19) truss seats are damaged or disconnected.
Out of about 250!
So about 230 exhibit pull-in.
Wrong again!
South face:
Floors 95--99 exhibit pull-in. That is (count carefully now) five floors, not two.
On these floors, a few (19) truss seats are damaged or disconnected.
Out of about 250!
So about 230 exhibit pull-in.
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Mar 4 2007, 03:51 PM)
Wrong again!
South face:
Floors 95--99 exhibit pull-in. That is (count carefully now) five floors, not two.
On these floors, a few (19) truss seats are damaged or disconnected.
Out of about 250!
So about 230 exhibit pull-in.
No, you are wrong.
Only two have the disconnects and the sagging as I stated.
NIST NCSTAR 1-6D Fig 5-4 and 5-5 page 316
Calculate the pull in force of a truss sagging 1.5 inches (or less) as almost all are and you will see how foolish your post is.
Plus, they would be functioning properly stopping the wall from bowing.
South face:
Floors 95--99 exhibit pull-in. That is (count carefully now) five floors, not two.
On these floors, a few (19) truss seats are damaged or disconnected.
Out of about 250!
So about 230 exhibit pull-in.
No, you are wrong.
Only two have the disconnects and the sagging as I stated.
NIST NCSTAR 1-6D Fig 5-4 and 5-5 page 316
Calculate the pull in force of a truss sagging 1.5 inches (or less) as almost all are and you will see how foolish your post is.
Plus, they would be functioning properly stopping the wall from bowing.
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 5 2007, 12:01 AM)
Only two have the disconnects and the sagging as I stated.
Only two what? Floors?
If so, then look again at Figure 2-36, NCSTAR1-6D page 49.
You will see that floors 95 & 96 have impact damage, so these have to be discounted as well.
The remaining 90+% of the truss connections are clearly marked as contributing Inward Pull, i.e., pull-in.
See also the text on page 40.
Only two what? Floors?
If so, then look again at Figure 2-36, NCSTAR1-6D page 49.
You will see that floors 95 & 96 have impact damage, so these have to be discounted as well.
The remaining 90+% of the truss connections are clearly marked as contributing Inward Pull, i.e., pull-in.
See also the text on page 40.
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Mar 4 2007, 04:10 PM)
Only two what? Floors?
If so, then look again at Figure 2-36, NCSTAR1-6D page 49.
You will see that floors 95 & 96 have impact damage, so these have to be discounted as well.
The remaining 90+% of the truss connections are clearly marked as contributing Inward Pull, i.e., pull-in.
See also the text on page 40.
NIST NCSTAR 1-6D Fig 5-4 and 5-5 page 316
You must have missed Arthurs posts (I don't blame you for skipping over them).
If so, then look again at Figure 2-36, NCSTAR1-6D page 49.
You will see that floors 95 & 96 have impact damage, so these have to be discounted as well.
The remaining 90+% of the truss connections are clearly marked as contributing Inward Pull, i.e., pull-in.
See also the text on page 40.
NIST NCSTAR 1-6D Fig 5-4 and 5-5 page 316
You must have missed Arthurs posts (I don't blame you for skipping over them).
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 4 2007, 11:24 PM)
Chainsaw , Is hunting for the imaginary fires without smoke or flames starting to frustrate you?
Go start a steel beam on fire and let everyone know how easy it is.
You didn't comment on this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOSZ5nVfc8Q
M@R@N I have already done that, and I do not have to hunt for it that is what you fail to understand that some has to be there just from the energy of the fires and the collapse it is a simple chemical reaction.
You really make me laugh because your really laughable!

If you compromise the oxide layer on heated steel it will ignite below 1350c as the iron in the steel itself heats up from the reaction with oxygen.
A sudden breakage of heated steel can create a flash explosion of burning steel dust. DA.
In certain situations the oxygen reaction is extremely violent.
Do you have any actual science input are are you actually just going to drag us deeper into the sewer of ignorance with you?
Go start a steel beam on fire and let everyone know how easy it is.
You didn't comment on this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOSZ5nVfc8Q
M@R@N I have already done that, and I do not have to hunt for it that is what you fail to understand that some has to be there just from the energy of the fires and the collapse it is a simple chemical reaction.
You really make me laugh because your really laughable!

If you compromise the oxide layer on heated steel it will ignite below 1350c as the iron in the steel itself heats up from the reaction with oxygen.
A sudden breakage of heated steel can create a flash explosion of burning steel dust. DA.
In certain situations the oxygen reaction is extremely violent.
Do you have any actual science input are are you actually just going to drag us deeper into the sewer of ignorance with you?
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 5 2007, 12:17 AM)
NIST NCSTAR 1-6D Fig 5-4 and 5-5 page 316
Only Figure 5--5 is relevant. I count 14 disconnected trusses on the two floors. Adding in the approximately 5 more damaged on other floors, that gives a total of 19 unable to deliver a pull-in force over the five floors of interest.
But just restricting attention to floors 97 & 98, there are 100-28 = 72 truss seats capable of exhibiting a pull-in force.
Geez.
Only Figure 5--5 is relevant. I count 14 disconnected trusses on the two floors. Adding in the approximately 5 more damaged on other floors, that gives a total of 19 unable to deliver a pull-in force over the five floors of interest.
But just restricting attention to floors 97 & 98, there are 100-28 = 72 truss seats capable of exhibiting a pull-in force.
Geez.
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Mar 4 2007, 04:27 PM)
Only Figure 5--5 is relevant. I count 14 disconnected trusses on the two floors. Adding in the approximately 5 more damaged on other floors, that gives a total of 19 unable to deliver a pull-in force over the five floors of interest.
But just restricting attention to floors 97 & 98, there are 100-14 = 86 truss seats capable of exhibiting a pull-in force.
Geez.
Figure 5-1 and 5-2 shows how NIST figured the forces.
And figure 5-4 shows the sagging!!!!!
The trusses that are sagging enough to pull on the wall are disconnected (south wall 97 & 98) figure 5-5.
You have to put it all together because NIST used so many models.
But just restricting attention to floors 97 & 98, there are 100-14 = 86 truss seats capable of exhibiting a pull-in force.
Geez.
Figure 5-1 and 5-2 shows how NIST figured the forces.
And figure 5-4 shows the sagging!!!!!
The trusses that are sagging enough to pull on the wall are disconnected (south wall 97 & 98) figure 5-5.
You have to put it all together because NIST used so many models.
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 5 2007, 12:35 AM)
The trusses that are sagging enough to pull on the wall are disconnected (south wall 97 & 98) figure 5-5.
This statement is incorrect. The disconnecting trusses redistribute their loads through the connections between the truss sections. The remaining truss seats then deliver a small (5 kip) horizontal pull-in force on the exterior walls.
The sagging is due to loss of structural strength due to heat. See the text on page 314 (378 ordinal).
The extreme drops in the floor shown in Figure 5--4 are due to disconnects. It is the remaining portions of the floor system which deliver the modest pull-in force.
This statement is incorrect. The disconnecting trusses redistribute their loads through the connections between the truss sections. The remaining truss seats then deliver a small (5 kip) horizontal pull-in force on the exterior walls.
The sagging is due to loss of structural strength due to heat. See the text on page 314 (378 ordinal).
The extreme drops in the floor shown in Figure 5--4 are due to disconnects. It is the remaining portions of the floor system which deliver the modest pull-in force.
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Mar 4 2007, 04:50 PM)
This statement is incorrect. The disconnecting trusses redistribute their loads through the connections between the truss sections. The remaining truss seats then deliver a small (5 kip) horizontal pull-in force on the exterior walls.
In addition, the sagging is due to loss of structural strength due to heat.
The extreme drops in the floor shown in Figure 5--4 are due to disconnects. It is the remaining portions of the floor system which deliver the modest pull-in force.
Wrong again!
If the diagonals are not buckled the truss redistributes the weight most all in the downward direction as designed.
The other undamaged trusses hold the wall in place.
Unless you are claiming all the diagonals buckled (which would not surprise me)?
The Trusses that pull in as figure 5-2 shows are also disconnected.
In addition, the sagging is due to loss of structural strength due to heat.
The extreme drops in the floor shown in Figure 5--4 are due to disconnects. It is the remaining portions of the floor system which deliver the modest pull-in force.
Wrong again!
If the diagonals are not buckled the truss redistributes the weight most all in the downward direction as designed.
The other undamaged trusses hold the wall in place.
Unless you are claiming all the diagonals buckled (which would not surprise me)?
The Trusses that pull in as figure 5-2 shows are also disconnected.
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 5 2007, 12:55 AM)
The other undamaged trusses hold the wall in place.
First sentence on page 314:
The long-span trusses of Floor 95 through Floor 99 sagged due to high temperatures.
Thus delivering a pull-in force as illustrated by Figures 5--1 and 5--2.
First sentence on page 314:
The long-span trusses of Floor 95 through Floor 99 sagged due to high temperatures.
Thus delivering a pull-in force as illustrated by Figures 5--1 and 5--2.
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Mar 4 2007, 05:07 PM)
First sentence on page 314:
The long-span trusses of Floor 95 through Floor 99 sagged due to high temperatures.
Thus delivering a pull-in force as illustrated by Figures 5--1 and 5--2.
They mostly sagged 1 to 2 inches!!!!!
Trusses are designed for this.
The few trusses that sagged 20 to 40 inches were disconnected!!!
All illustrated by Figures 5-4 and 5-5.
The long-span trusses of Floor 95 through Floor 99 sagged due to high temperatures.
Thus delivering a pull-in force as illustrated by Figures 5--1 and 5--2.
They mostly sagged 1 to 2 inches!!!!!
Trusses are designed for this.
The few trusses that sagged 20 to 40 inches were disconnected!!!
All illustrated by Figures 5-4 and 5-5.
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 5 2007, 01:14 AM)
They mostly sagged 1 to 2 inches!!!!!
Mostly, perhaps. However, another quote from page 314:
Full floor models underestimated the extent of sagging ...
Furthermore, the trusses that disconnected on floors 97 & 98 did not start out that way. By 100 minutes they were disconnected. I don't seem to find comparable floor diagrams for 80 minutes and 90 minutes.
The bowing-in of the south wall began at about 80 minutes, about the time that some of the trusses began to disconnect. (Helps to read the text on page 314.)
Mostly, perhaps. However, another quote from page 314:
Full floor models underestimated the extent of sagging ...
Furthermore, the trusses that disconnected on floors 97 & 98 did not start out that way. By 100 minutes they were disconnected. I don't seem to find comparable floor diagrams for 80 minutes and 90 minutes.
The bowing-in of the south wall began at about 80 minutes, about the time that some of the trusses began to disconnect. (Helps to read the text on page 314.)
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Mar 4 2007, 05:29 PM)
Mostly, perhaps. However, another quote from page 314:
Full floor models underestimated the extent of sagging ...
Furthermore, the trusses that disconnected on floors 97 & 98 did not start out that way. By 100 minutes they were disconnected. I don't seem to find comparable floor diagrams for 80 minutes and 90 minutes.
The bowing-in of the south wall began at about 80 minutes, about the time that some of the trusses began to disconnect. (Helps to read the text on page 314.)
Steel will return to its original shape when the trusses pulling on the exterior wall become disconnected unless it reaches the yield point.
I read it ( I could hardly believe it).
If the model was not accurate instead of guessing they should have changed the parameters and run the simulation again.
Then they should have tested the real floor assembly to validate the FEA results.
THIS IS THE FRIGGING $20,000,000 QUESTION,COLLAPSE INITIATION.
They used a computer model that they admit is wrong and guess at the reason, quack science at its best.
The simulation does not show any of the forces NIST claim pulled in the wall.
Let me guess , you have no problem with this.
Full floor models underestimated the extent of sagging ...
Furthermore, the trusses that disconnected on floors 97 & 98 did not start out that way. By 100 minutes they were disconnected. I don't seem to find comparable floor diagrams for 80 minutes and 90 minutes.
The bowing-in of the south wall began at about 80 minutes, about the time that some of the trusses began to disconnect. (Helps to read the text on page 314.)
Steel will return to its original shape when the trusses pulling on the exterior wall become disconnected unless it reaches the yield point.
I read it ( I could hardly believe it).
If the model was not accurate instead of guessing they should have changed the parameters and run the simulation again.
Then they should have tested the real floor assembly to validate the FEA results.
THIS IS THE FRIGGING $20,000,000 QUESTION,COLLAPSE INITIATION.
They used a computer model that they admit is wrong and guess at the reason, quack science at its best.
The simulation does not show any of the forces NIST claim pulled in the wall.
Let me guess , you have no problem with this.
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 5 2007, 01:35 AM)
Let me guess , you have no problem with this.
First of all, let me point out that the truss seats were designed to withstand about 140 kip of horizontal force. The ones that disconnected must have exhibited that much force on the south wall, something it certainly was not designed to withstand.
To demonstrate the wall bowing in, they simulated a modest 5 kip pull-in force over five floors. In this way they approximated the observed bowing.
A fuller discussion of various approximations for the final fire+FEA model is found in the so-called Executive Summary of NCSTAR1-6.
I have several times now posted that NIST produced an approximate probable scenario.
So far I don't see any gross errors in their rather thorough study...
Edited to add: Heated steel reaches its yield point at much lower stress.
But enough for me for today...
First of all, let me point out that the truss seats were designed to withstand about 140 kip of horizontal force. The ones that disconnected must have exhibited that much force on the south wall, something it certainly was not designed to withstand.
To demonstrate the wall bowing in, they simulated a modest 5 kip pull-in force over five floors. In this way they approximated the observed bowing.
A fuller discussion of various approximations for the final fire+FEA model is found in the so-called Executive Summary of NCSTAR1-6.
I have several times now posted that NIST produced an approximate probable scenario.
So far I don't see any gross errors in their rather thorough study...
Edited to add: Heated steel reaches its yield point at much lower stress.
But enough for me for today...
QUOTE (Grumpy+Mar 2 2007, 07:40 PM)
Agent_X
And He and Foxx were absolutely wrong.
Foxx responded on this page:
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=7444&st=9285#
As usual, more obfuscation, going off on tangents, etc...
And He and Foxx were absolutely wrong.
Foxx responded on this page:
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=7444&st=9285#
As usual, more obfuscation, going off on tangents, etc...
QUOTE (Chainsaw,+Mar 4 2007, 06:04 PM)
When you mention Dr. Jones your wasting our time!
That was just for the record. I could have just as easily omitted his name and it still wouldn't have mattered.
The point is what Greening said, not who he said it to.
That was just for the record. I could have just as easily omitted his name and it still wouldn't have mattered.
The point is what Greening said, not who he said it to.
I’ve only found one hi-res video (wtc1) in which you see some perimeter columns buckling and after that the whole top falls down, it is a dramatic movie and hard to understand because the load is really static before this happens. Totally no movement although a few seconds before the collapse initiation something happened with the camera (I’ve seen the same effect in a cameraplanet movie of the south tower) . It is not good to see how they buckle, a couple of them buckle only at one place and after that it is the end of the story. It is covered in dust but you still clearly can see that in the corners the perimeter columns simply break/fracture. At that moment no wedging can be seen because a wedge implies that the perimeter columns will be pressed outwards by the tilting block. Instead of this it just breaks (3.8 meter -> 0 meter). If there is a tilting effect and a wedging in the other directory the perimeters should be pressed outward at the other side and we cannot see it from that view. But after that the same should happen at the side of the camera.
An other observation that does not imply wedging is the fact that complete more or less intact parts of the perimeter columns have a faster speed than the demolition wave. This implies that they are originally from the toppling block. By the assumption of a stepwise process a wedge effect after a couple of stories cannot give material that travels faster than the demolition wave because material that doesn’t contribute to ‘pancaking’ only can have a horizontal velocity component, the vertical component is simply free fall.
An other observation that does not imply wedging is the fact that complete more or less intact parts of the perimeter columns have a faster speed than the demolition wave. This implies that they are originally from the toppling block. By the assumption of a stepwise process a wedge effect after a couple of stories cannot give material that travels faster than the demolition wave because material that doesn’t contribute to ‘pancaking’ only can have a horizontal velocity component, the vertical component is simply free fall.
Leslie Robertson answering his critics:
I was not aware of the full penetration welds at the truss connections. Apparently the sagging trusses could offer more pull than some of us thought.
QUOTE
This is not to say that the structural design of The World Trade
Center has not received adverse comments – sometimes unfairly
so. Using the television as his pulpit, one noted structural engineer
took it upon himself to criticise the structural design for a
perceived lack of adequate anchorage of the floor trusses to the
columns and for inadequate robustness of the trusses. Quoting
from the TV programme:
‘They had two 5/8 in. bolts at one end of the truss, and two 3/4 in. bolts
at the other end which is perfectly fine to take vertical load, and
perfectly fine to take shear loads, but once the floor elements start to sag
during a fire, – okay, they start exerting tension forces because it
becomes a catenary, like a clothesline, and those two little bolts just
couldn’t handle it.
As you start to lose the lateral support due to the floors, the exterior just
crumples like a piece of paper or like if you took a sheet of cardboard and
you put some weight on it, and you take out the lateral supports it’ll
just bow right out.
Had the floor system been a more robust floor system with much
stronger connections between the exterior and the inside, I think the
buildings probably would have lasted longer. Would they ultimately
have collapsed? Maybe not.’
While that engineer had full access both to the drawings and to the
site, it would seem that he neglected to look at either. In fact, the
‘two little bolts’ were erection bolts – with the final connection by
complete penetration welds; the connection was designed to
restrain the columns from buckling away from the building. At the
level of the aircraft impact, for Tower A, we had designed the
trusses and their connections for loads 27 times that of the normal
practice, with ‘normal practice’ being defined as 2% of the axial
force in the column, and 13 times for Tower B.
Another fallacy, promoted widely in television programs
produced in the United Kingdom and in the United States, is that
the fire-induced failure of the trusses, which trusses were thought
to lack robustness, caused the ultimate collapse of the two towers.
These premises have been soundly discredited by a $26M study
undertaken by the National Institute of Standards and Technology.
Center has not received adverse comments – sometimes unfairly
so. Using the television as his pulpit, one noted structural engineer
took it upon himself to criticise the structural design for a
perceived lack of adequate anchorage of the floor trusses to the
columns and for inadequate robustness of the trusses. Quoting
from the TV programme:
‘They had two 5/8 in. bolts at one end of the truss, and two 3/4 in. bolts
at the other end which is perfectly fine to take vertical load, and
perfectly fine to take shear loads, but once the floor elements start to sag
during a fire, – okay, they start exerting tension forces because it
becomes a catenary, like a clothesline, and those two little bolts just
couldn’t handle it.
As you start to lose the lateral support due to the floors, the exterior just
crumples like a piece of paper or like if you took a sheet of cardboard and
you put some weight on it, and you take out the lateral supports it’ll
just bow right out.
Had the floor system been a more robust floor system with much
stronger connections between the exterior and the inside, I think the
buildings probably would have lasted longer. Would they ultimately
have collapsed? Maybe not.’
While that engineer had full access both to the drawings and to the
site, it would seem that he neglected to look at either. In fact, the
‘two little bolts’ were erection bolts – with the final connection by
complete penetration welds; the connection was designed to
restrain the columns from buckling away from the building. At the
level of the aircraft impact, for Tower A, we had designed the
trusses and their connections for loads 27 times that of the normal
practice, with ‘normal practice’ being defined as 2% of the axial
force in the column, and 13 times for Tower B.
Another fallacy, promoted widely in television programs
produced in the United Kingdom and in the United States, is that
the fire-induced failure of the trusses, which trusses were thought
to lack robustness, caused the ultimate collapse of the two towers.
These premises have been soundly discredited by a $26M study
undertaken by the National Institute of Standards and Technology.
I was not aware of the full penetration welds at the truss connections. Apparently the sagging trusses could offer more pull than some of us thought.
Deleted post
QUOTE (einsteen+Mar 5 2007, 10:26 AM)
An other observation that does not imply wedging is the fact that complete more or less intact parts of the perimeter columns have a faster speed than the demolition wave. This implies that they are originally from the toppling block. By the assumption of a stepwise process a wedge effect after a couple of stories cannot give material that travels faster than the demolition wave because material that doesn’t contribute to ‘pancaking’ only can have a horizontal velocity component, the vertical component is simply free fall.
If a multi story column section is laterally accelerated, because its motion rotates around its lower connection until that connection fails, wouldn't that horizontal velocity be converted to a vertical velocity that is potentially greater than free fall?
If a multi story column section is laterally accelerated, because its motion rotates around its lower connection until that connection fails, wouldn't that horizontal velocity be converted to a vertical velocity that is potentially greater than free fall?
I'm not sure if I understand what you mean, but the large parts falling with free fall are part of the toppling block. There is one firemen video where they run away, you clearly see a demolition wave (not really pancaking) where material is ejected horizontally and mainly smaller parts. I've never seen videos where a part of the perimeter grid is ejected.
I think it is nice to determine the acceleration of some parts, if it is near g and not near (2/3)g then we know it originates from the top.
I think it is nice to determine the acceleration of some parts, if it is near g and not near (2/3)g then we know it originates from the top.
QUOTE (Agent_X+Mar 5 2007, 08:18 AM)
That was just for the record. I could have just as easily omitted his name and it still wouldn't have mattered.
The point is what Greening said, not who he said it to.
The statement was irrelevant to the conversation anyway it had no merit, as Dr. Jones did not know what caused the 23 minute collapse of building 7 it could be seen tilting to the weakened side before the collapse.
That is what the BBC reported the fact that it was known that the building was unstable.
The most logical prospect for the collapse of building 7 is that debris damaged and over loaded the building then the fires weakened it to the point where the tension strength in the steel of the main support beam in the building gave way.
The near free falling material is just the back facade falling because the steel can no longer support it so it falls under its own weight!
I once thought that a Hydrogen triggered Carbon dust explosion might have come into play, but that would have required and energy transfer down an elevator shaft directly to the beam.
Given how hard it is for explosives to survive in a high sulfur diesel fuel fire, the Controlled demolition Idea with explosives is less plausible than the Godzilla theory.
That Godzilla past gas under the building causing it to collapse.
Dr. Greening was just being honest and you fault him for that, Dr. Jones has shown himself to be totally dishonest in Misquoting Dr. Greening.
Remember aluminum can not glow yellow because of black body radiation,
.
Dr. Jones even goes so far as to say that aluminum can only glow when the oxide coating is removed, which is false you can not remove the oxide coating on aluminum in an oxygen atmosphere, the change of aluminum to Aluminum oxide is so rapid that it is for all practical purposes instantaneous.
That is what usually protects the metal from burning, but if the oxide layer is continuously disrupted the aluminum will burn glowing yellow then white because the aluminum can burn between the crystalline latices and the crystals of Aluminum oxide defuse the light to the yellow part of the spectrum.
It is a little complicated and you would have to have a very good grasp of physics to understand it.
If you change the conductivity of the Aluminum by including steel or iron fragments in it, by extreme force it will flow and Glow because the Iron fragments are not as conductive as the Aluminum and can actually react if exposed with oxygen acting as a natural oxygen conduct though the oxide layer as long as the material is in motion.
Iron is an organic compound as well, steel is composed of two organic compounds, Carbon and Iron.
The point is what Greening said, not who he said it to.
The statement was irrelevant to the conversation anyway it had no merit, as Dr. Jones did not know what caused the 23 minute collapse of building 7 it could be seen tilting to the weakened side before the collapse.
That is what the BBC reported the fact that it was known that the building was unstable.
The most logical prospect for the collapse of building 7 is that debris damaged and over loaded the building then the fires weakened it to the point where the tension strength in the steel of the main support beam in the building gave way.
The near free falling material is just the back facade falling because the steel can no longer support it so it falls under its own weight!
I once thought that a Hydrogen triggered Carbon dust explosion might have come into play, but that would have required and energy transfer down an elevator shaft directly to the beam.
Given how hard it is for explosives to survive in a high sulfur diesel fuel fire, the Controlled demolition Idea with explosives is less plausible than the Godzilla theory.
That Godzilla past gas under the building causing it to collapse.
Dr. Greening was just being honest and you fault him for that, Dr. Jones has shown himself to be totally dishonest in Misquoting Dr. Greening.
Remember aluminum can not glow yellow because of black body radiation,
Dr. Jones even goes so far as to say that aluminum can only glow when the oxide coating is removed, which is false you can not remove the oxide coating on aluminum in an oxygen atmosphere, the change of aluminum to Aluminum oxide is so rapid that it is for all practical purposes instantaneous.
That is what usually protects the metal from burning, but if the oxide layer is continuously disrupted the aluminum will burn glowing yellow then white because the aluminum can burn between the crystalline latices and the crystals of Aluminum oxide defuse the light to the yellow part of the spectrum.
It is a little complicated and you would have to have a very good grasp of physics to understand it.
If you change the conductivity of the Aluminum by including steel or iron fragments in it, by extreme force it will flow and Glow because the Iron fragments are not as conductive as the Aluminum and can actually react if exposed with oxygen acting as a natural oxygen conduct though the oxide layer as long as the material is in motion.
Iron is an organic compound as well, steel is composed of two organic compounds, Carbon and Iron.
Agent_X
And, as usual, Foxx was wrong. Recycled garbage doesn't smell any better the second time around, nor does quantity make up for a lack of quality.
By the way, do you have anything possitive to contribute???
Grumpy
QUOTE
Foxx responded on this page:
And, as usual, Foxx was wrong. Recycled garbage doesn't smell any better the second time around, nor does quantity make up for a lack of quality.
By the way, do you have anything possitive to contribute???
Grumpy
QUOTE (Capracus+Mar 5 2007, 11:35 AM)
Leslie Robertson answering his critics:
I was not aware of the full penetration welds at the truss connections. Apparently the sagging trusses could offer more pull than some of us thought.
The real problem with trusses and fires has been known for years, it is uneven conductivity the trusses have regions of hot and cold sections that tend to cause them to deform more than beams of the same mass.
The uneven heating and cooling actually can make the trusses behave similar to a bi metal strip, bending from the heat alone.
If you add significant weight to the situation then it gets even worse.
I was not aware of the full penetration welds at the truss connections. Apparently the sagging trusses could offer more pull than some of us thought.
The real problem with trusses and fires has been known for years, it is uneven conductivity the trusses have regions of hot and cold sections that tend to cause them to deform more than beams of the same mass.
The uneven heating and cooling actually can make the trusses behave similar to a bi metal strip, bending from the heat alone.
If you add significant weight to the situation then it gets even worse.
Trusses that work like bi-metals
If you assume one of them is a conducting object then it will expand a little bit, a bi-metal consists of two metals that touch each other, both conducting sufficient, both with a different coefficient of expansion, that gives the effect. A truss is a truss and no bi-metal.
This page gives a picture about the effect of fire
http://guardian.150m.com/wtc/trusses.htm
If you assume one of them is a conducting object then it will expand a little bit, a bi-metal consists of two metals that touch each other, both conducting sufficient, both with a different coefficient of expansion, that gives the effect. A truss is a truss and no bi-metal.
This page gives a picture about the effect of fire
http://guardian.150m.com/wtc/trusses.htm
einsteen
On June 15, 2003, a 39-year-old male career lieutenant (Victim 1) died, and another 39-year-old career fire fighter (Victim 2) was fatally injured while trying to exit from a commercial structure following a partial collapse of the building's flat metal roof, which was supported by lightweight metal trusses (bar joists). Victim 1, the lieutenant of the first responding engine company, reported light smoke on arrival at a discount store. The flat roof consisted of metal decking covered by wooden fiber insulation and asphalt. A suspended ceiling in the main store area approximately 12 feet high covered the metal roof trusses and obstructed their view from below. Victim 1 led his crew into the store to search for the fire. After proceeding approximately halfway to the rear of the store, he directed two fire fighters to go outside and bring in a preconnected hand line. Victim 1 and a lieutenant from the second en gine company proceeded to the rear of the store. This lieutenant found the fire behind the closed office door and exited to pull a second hand line. Soon afterward, Victim 1 requested a truck company to enter the store and pull ceiling tiles to search for fire extension; a third lieutenant and a fire fighter immediately responded. The truck company searching for fire extension observed fire in the truss void above the suspended ceiling. The accumulation of smoke and hot gases within the truss void mixed with fresh air as the ceiling was opened and violently ignited. The fire rapidly spread from the rear office area to the main store room through the hidden truss void. Victim 1 radioed that it was getting too hot and everyone needed to back out. At this point, the roof truss system at the rear of the store room began to fail, sending debris downward, with several bar joists coming to rest on metal merchandise shelving. Several fire fighters were able to escape by following the hose lines toward the front of the store. Victim 1 and Victim 2 (the nozzleman from the first responding engine company) became separated from the rest of the fire fighters and were unable to escape. As conditions worsened, the building was evacuated, and a rescue attempt for the two missing fire fighters was initiated. Fire fighters working at the rear of the building heard a personal alert safety system (PASS) device and quickly entered to investigate. Victim 2 was located in the rear storage room close to the office. A second PASS device was also heard further into the building. Soon after Victim 2 was brought outside, the rear of the building collapsed, preventing further rescue efforts until the fire was brought under control. Victim 1 was located approximately 1½ hours later. Victim 2 was hospitalized and died the next day [NIOSH 2004].
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2005-132/#5
Truss systems are notorious in the firefighting community for their unpredictability, in fact "Never trust a truss" is a mantra for safe operations in structural fires. In a normally spread fire they may perform well. WTC was not a normally spread office fire. The "Molitov cocktail" of the aircraft set everything on fire almost instantly over multiple floors, greatly increasing the rate of temperature rise as opposed to a slow rise in the normally progression of a fire, so your examples are not really relivant to the WTC fires.
Grumpy
On June 15, 2003, a 39-year-old male career lieutenant (Victim 1) died, and another 39-year-old career fire fighter (Victim 2) was fatally injured while trying to exit from a commercial structure following a partial collapse of the building's flat metal roof, which was supported by lightweight metal trusses (bar joists). Victim 1, the lieutenant of the first responding engine company, reported light smoke on arrival at a discount store. The flat roof consisted of metal decking covered by wooden fiber insulation and asphalt. A suspended ceiling in the main store area approximately 12 feet high covered the metal roof trusses and obstructed their view from below. Victim 1 led his crew into the store to search for the fire. After proceeding approximately halfway to the rear of the store, he directed two fire fighters to go outside and bring in a preconnected hand line. Victim 1 and a lieutenant from the second en gine company proceeded to the rear of the store. This lieutenant found the fire behind the closed office door and exited to pull a second hand line. Soon afterward, Victim 1 requested a truck company to enter the store and pull ceiling tiles to search for fire extension; a third lieutenant and a fire fighter immediately responded. The truck company searching for fire extension observed fire in the truss void above the suspended ceiling. The accumulation of smoke and hot gases within the truss void mixed with fresh air as the ceiling was opened and violently ignited. The fire rapidly spread from the rear office area to the main store room through the hidden truss void. Victim 1 radioed that it was getting too hot and everyone needed to back out. At this point, the roof truss system at the rear of the store room began to fail, sending debris downward, with several bar joists coming to rest on metal merchandise shelving. Several fire fighters were able to escape by following the hose lines toward the front of the store. Victim 1 and Victim 2 (the nozzleman from the first responding engine company) became separated from the rest of the fire fighters and were unable to escape. As conditions worsened, the building was evacuated, and a rescue attempt for the two missing fire fighters was initiated. Fire fighters working at the rear of the building heard a personal alert safety system (PASS) device and quickly entered to investigate. Victim 2 was located in the rear storage room close to the office. A second PASS device was also heard further into the building. Soon after Victim 2 was brought outside, the rear of the building collapsed, preventing further rescue efforts until the fire was brought under control. Victim 1 was located approximately 1½ hours later. Victim 2 was hospitalized and died the next day [NIOSH 2004].
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2005-132/#5
Truss systems are notorious in the firefighting community for their unpredictability, in fact "Never trust a truss" is a mantra for safe operations in structural fires. In a normally spread fire they may perform well. WTC was not a normally spread office fire. The "Molitov cocktail" of the aircraft set everything on fire almost instantly over multiple floors, greatly increasing the rate of temperature rise as opposed to a slow rise in the normally progression of a fire, so your examples are not really relivant to the WTC fires.
Grumpy
einsteen --- Those are interesting observations! Is there a way for you to post a vid-clip so that those of us (like me) who are unable to view videos can see the phenomenon?
By the way, the NIST steel collection contains a perimeter column which has folded down onto itself like an accordion. I had always assumed that this occurred somewhat further down the building.
shagster earlier posted a visual which appears to show that part of the northwest corner of the top block of WTC 1 failed to participate in the tilting.
Wedging: Ar 8 degrees of arc, the top of the south wall is about 0.6 meters inside the outer edge of the bottom portion of the south wall. Of course, the matter is not quite so simple at the moment of tilt initiation. Some serious inelastic behavior must occur right then.
However, the building was internally undergoing some deterioration earlier. The NYPD helicopter observer warned of collapse about 6 seconds before it did.
By the way, the NIST steel collection contains a perimeter column which has folded down onto itself like an accordion. I had always assumed that this occurred somewhat further down the building.
shagster earlier posted a visual which appears to show that part of the northwest corner of the top block of WTC 1 failed to participate in the tilting.
Wedging: Ar 8 degrees of arc, the top of the south wall is about 0.6 meters inside the outer edge of the bottom portion of the south wall. Of course, the matter is not quite so simple at the moment of tilt initiation. Some serious inelastic behavior must occur right then.
However, the building was internally undergoing some deterioration earlier. The NYPD helicopter observer warned of collapse about 6 seconds before it did.
QUOTE (einsteen+Mar 5 2007, 02:55 PM)
Trusses that work like bi-metals
If you assume one of them is a conducting object then it will expand a little bit, a bi-metal consists of two metals that touch each other, both conducting sufficient, both with a different coefficient of expansion, that gives the effect. A truss is a truss and no bi-metal.
This page gives a picture about the effect of fire
http://guardian.150m.com/wtc/trusses.htm
My point is that uneven heating can cause truss deformations, though unequal expansion. PS bi metals do not have to tough, to work they only have to be heated at the same rate this I have seen done using separations, contacts that separate the metals and prevent them actually contacting each other. I saw this design once in an electrical switch, one peace provided the ground and one provided the power, it was designed for compact installations, so they simply used an insulator in between the metals, and heated the metals by air temperature around them.
Expansion in one part of the truss can lead to the destruction and bending of that part.
It is a matter of the conductivity of the truss to maintain a constant temperature over the entire truss though Conducting away the heat.
I have seen a heated truss in a fire actually expand and break the welds on the other end.
The trusses in the guardian were obviously evenly heated and had no fire proofing on them. It does not dispute at all what I have said it shows ignorance of the fact that uneven heating of trusses can cause buckling and bending effects, especially if the trusses have the potential of retaining heat and not conducting that heat to the air do to Insulation that is randomly broken! DA.
The trusses that were in the fire in the guardian article were not fireproofed and could not have stored enough heat for the phenomena to effect them.
There has to be a way for the truss to store heat that is not conducted away to the environment for the phenomena to occur.
PS I only used the bi metal analogy because it is hard to explain to people the concept that one part of a truss can expand and another part still be rigid.
I saw it in a building fire myself the weld joints on the ends of he trusses burst even tough they were not near the fire but were where the rain was cooling them.
The uneven transfer of heat was what caused one side to react differently than the other.
If you assume one of them is a conducting object then it will expand a little bit, a bi-metal consists of two metals that touch each other, both conducting sufficient, both with a different coefficient of expansion, that gives the effect. A truss is a truss and no bi-metal.
This page gives a picture about the effect of fire
http://guardian.150m.com/wtc/trusses.htm
My point is that uneven heating can cause truss deformations, though unequal expansion. PS bi metals do not have to tough, to work they only have to be heated at the same rate this I have seen done using separations, contacts that separate the metals and prevent them actually contacting each other. I saw this design once in an electrical switch, one peace provided the ground and one provided the power, it was designed for compact installations, so they simply used an insulator in between the metals, and heated the metals by air temperature around them.
Expansion in one part of the truss can lead to the destruction and bending of that part.
It is a matter of the conductivity of the truss to maintain a constant temperature over the entire truss though Conducting away the heat.
I have seen a heated truss in a fire actually expand and break the welds on the other end.
The trusses in the guardian were obviously evenly heated and had no fire proofing on them. It does not dispute at all what I have said it shows ignorance of the fact that uneven heating of trusses can cause buckling and bending effects, especially if the trusses have the potential of retaining heat and not conducting that heat to the air do to Insulation that is randomly broken! DA.
The trusses that were in the fire in the guardian article were not fireproofed and could not have stored enough heat for the phenomena to effect them.
There has to be a way for the truss to store heat that is not conducted away to the environment for the phenomena to occur.
PS I only used the bi metal analogy because it is hard to explain to people the concept that one part of a truss can expand and another part still be rigid.
I saw it in a building fire myself the weld joints on the ends of he trusses burst even tough they were not near the fire but were where the rain was cooling them.
The uneven transfer of heat was what caused one side to react differently than the other.
QUOTE (einsteen+Mar 5 2007, 12:58 PM)
I'm not sure if I understand what you mean.
QUOTE (einsteen+Mar 5 2007, 10:26 AM)
By the assumption of a stepwise process a wedge effect after a couple of stories cannot give material that travels faster than the demolition wave because material that doesn’t contribute to ‘pancaking’ only can have a horizontal velocity component, the vertical component is simply free fall.
My point is that in some cases, material outside the collapse front can be accelerated to velocities greater than free fall.
QUOTE (einsteen+Mar 5 2007, 02:55 PM)
Trusses that work like bi-metals
If you assume one of them is a conducting object then it will expand a little bit, a bi-metal consists of two metals that touch each other, both conducting sufficient, both with a different coefficient of expansion, that gives the effect. A truss is a truss and no bi-metal.
This page gives a picture about the effect of fire
http://guardian.150m.com/wtc/trusses.htm
Here is a very good paper I think you should read, although it deals with space science the engineering is similar to what I was trying to explain.
http://pdf.aiaa.org/jaPreview/JSR/1987/PVJAPRE25922.pdf
Heat can have detrimental effects on connected, interlinked structures such as trusses.
If you assume one of them is a conducting object then it will expand a little bit, a bi-metal consists of two metals that touch each other, both conducting sufficient, both with a different coefficient of expansion, that gives the effect. A truss is a truss and no bi-metal.
This page gives a picture about the effect of fire
http://guardian.150m.com/wtc/trusses.htm
Here is a very good paper I think you should read, although it deals with space science the engineering is similar to what I was trying to explain.
http://pdf.aiaa.org/jaPreview/JSR/1987/PVJAPRE25922.pdf
Heat can have detrimental effects on connected, interlinked structures such as trusses.
QUOTE (David B. Benson+Mar 5 2007, 07:08 PM)
einsteen --- Those are interesting observations! Is there a way for you to post a vid-clip so that those of us (like me) who are unable to view videos can see the phenomenon?
By the way, the NIST steel collection contains a perimeter column which has folded down onto itself like an accordion. I had always assumed that this occurred somewhat further down the building.
shagster earlier posted a visual which appears to show that part of the northwest corner of the top block of WTC 1 failed to participate in the tilting.
Wedging: Ar 8 degrees of arc, the top of the south wall is about 0.6 meters inside the outer edge of the bottom portion of the south wall. Of course, the matter is not quite so simple at the moment of tilt initiation. Some serious inelastic behavior must occur right then.
However, the building was internally undergoing some deterioration earlier. The NYPD helicopter observer warned of collapse about 6 seconds before it did.
David... are there any WTC tower photos where the steel beams are cut at close to 45 degree angles...
...as are done in controlled demolitions?
By the way, the NIST steel collection contains a perimeter column which has folded down onto itself like an accordion. I had always assumed that this occurred somewhat further down the building.
shagster earlier posted a visual which appears to show that part of the northwest corner of the top block of WTC 1 failed to participate in the tilting.
Wedging: Ar 8 degrees of arc, the top of the south wall is about 0.6 meters inside the outer edge of the bottom portion of the south wall. Of course, the matter is not quite so simple at the moment of tilt initiation. Some serious inelastic behavior must occur right then.
However, the building was internally undergoing some deterioration earlier. The NYPD helicopter observer warned of collapse about 6 seconds before it did.
David... are there any WTC tower photos where the steel beams are cut at close to 45 degree angles...
...as are done in controlled demolitions?
QUOTE (kahlmyishmael+Mar 5 2007, 11:37 PM)
David... are there any WTC tower photos where the steel beams are cut at close to 45 degree angles...
...as are done in controlled demolitions?
Are you speaking of the beam on Dr. Jones website, that was clearly cut with an oxygen lance during clean up?
You can clearly see the steps that the operator of the lance used to cut the beam!

To anyone that has ever used an Oxygen lance the cut pattern stands out like a sore thumb.
...as are done in controlled demolitions?
Are you speaking of the beam on Dr. Jones website, that was clearly cut with an oxygen lance during clean up?
You can clearly see the steps that the operator of the lance used to cut the beam!

To anyone that has ever used an Oxygen lance the cut pattern stands out like a sore thumb.
QUOTE (Agent_X+Mar 5 2007, 08:08 AM)
Foxx responded on this page:
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=7444&st=9285#
As usual, more obfuscation, going off on tangents, etc...
But then Arthur and Grumpy maintained that Bush really saw the second plane crash into the twin towers prior to entering the Florida classroom AND STIILL could not manage to get the story correct weeks later.
You either agree with them or, by your silence,...did not seem to mind that they'd engage in this conduct on this board.
I could hyperlink you to their conduct back then...
Neither Arthur nor Grumpy are particularly anxious for me to do so.
Agent X... would you care to take the USS Liberty Murders by Israel:free $500 challenge?
I mean all these people who have the stones to laugh at the Cters suddenly go flacid when it comes to taking the challenge.
Not you, though...correct?
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=7444&st=9285#
As usual, more obfuscation, going off on tangents, etc...
But then Arthur and Grumpy maintained that Bush really saw the second plane crash into the twin towers prior to entering the Florida classroom AND STIILL could not manage to get the story correct weeks later.
You either agree with them or, by your silence,...did not seem to mind that they'd engage in this conduct on this board.
I could hyperlink you to their conduct back then...
Neither Arthur nor Grumpy are particularly anxious for me to do so.
Agent X... would you care to take the USS Liberty Murders by Israel:free $500 challenge?
I mean all these people who have the stones to laugh at the Cters suddenly go flacid when it comes to taking the challenge.
Not you, though...correct?
Chainsaw,

If you look closely at the bottom right picture you will see slag below the cut, but ON TOP OF THE RUBBLE, meaning it could only have been cut AFTER the rubble was deposited.
Grumpy

If you look closely at the bottom right picture you will see slag below the cut, but ON TOP OF THE RUBBLE, meaning it could only have been cut AFTER the rubble was deposited.
Grumpy
kahlmyishmael
Are you stupid enough to continue to insist that W saw the first plane???
Let's see...
Either W set up the whole operation and had a private link of closed circuit TV so he could see the first plane hit...
or...
You and he are just a couple of dumbasses and the president misspoke (or, who knows, is dumb enough to think he saw the first plane).
Grumpy
QUOTE
But then Arthur and Grumpy maintained that Bush really saw the second plane crash into the twin towers prior to entering the Florida classroom AND STIILL could not manage to get the story correct weeks later.
Are you stupid enough to continue to insist that W saw the first plane???
Let's see...
Either W set up the whole operation and had a private link of closed circuit TV so he could see the first plane hit...
or...
You and he are just a couple of dumbasses and the president misspoke (or, who knows, is dumb enough to think he saw the first plane).
Grumpy
QUOTE (kahlmyishmael+Mar 5 2007, 11:37 PM)
David... are there any WTC tower photos where the steel beams are cut at close to 45 degree angles...?
Yes. Furthermore, one can find photos of the clean-up workers making those cuts. You should be able to find them
Here!
Yes. Furthermore, one can find photos of the clean-up workers making those cuts. You should be able to find them
Here!
You mean this...


QUOTE (Grumpy+Mar 6 2007, 12:01 AM)
kahlmyishmael
Are you stupid enough to continue to insist that W saw the first plane???
Let's see...
Either W set up the whole operation and had a private link of closed circuit TV so he could see the first plane hit...
or...
You and he are just a couple of dumbasses and the president misspoke (or, who knows, is dumb enough to think he saw the first plane).
Grumpy
There doesn't seem to be any unanswered questions about 9/11. Just conspiracy theorists dogmatic refusal to accept answers.
Are you stupid enough to continue to insist that W saw the first plane???
Let's see...
Either W set up the whole operation and had a private link of closed circuit TV so he could see the first plane hit...
or...
You and he are just a couple of dumbasses and the president misspoke (or, who knows, is dumb enough to think he saw the first plane).
Grumpy
There doesn't seem to be any unanswered questions about 9/11. Just conspiracy theorists dogmatic refusal to accept answers.
On the topic of "dustified" steel:
If some of the steel in the Twin Towers was vaporized or "dustified" a corresponding amount of iron should be found in the WTC dust.
The USGS data for WTC dust samples collected in September 2001 show there was an average of only 1.6 % of iron.
If the total amount of dust produced by the collapse of WTC 1 & 2 was 50,000 tonnes. Then no more than 800 tonnes of structural steel could have been vaporized or dustified during, or immediately after, the collapse.
NF
If some of the steel in the Twin Towers was vaporized or "dustified" a corresponding amount of iron should be found in the WTC dust.
The USGS data for WTC dust samples collected in September 2001 show there was an average of only 1.6 % of iron.
If the total amount of dust produced by the collapse of WTC 1 & 2 was 50,000 tonnes. Then no more than 800 tonnes of structural steel could have been vaporized or dustified during, or immediately after, the collapse.
NF
QUOTE (FactCheck+Mar 6 2007, 01:32 AM)
You mean this...

I tend to find that only Idiots expect the workers to cut the steel beams strait across, and let them fall on there heads!
The angled cuts are a safety feature when removing large steel beams. DA.

I tend to find that only Idiots expect the workers to cut the steel beams strait across, and let them fall on there heads!
The angled cuts are a safety feature when removing large steel beams. DA.
QUOTE (Grumpy+Mar 6 2007, 12:01 AM)
kahlmyishmael
Are you stupid enough to continue to insist that W saw the first plane???
Let's see...
Either W set up the whole operation and had a private link of closed circuit TV so he could see the first plane hit...
or...
You and he are just a couple of dumbasses and the president misspoke (or, who knows, is dumb enough to think he saw the first plane).
Grumpy
do you think they can afford close circuit tv? do you think close circuit tv is sci-fi?
lol.
ever single person who said 'explosion' mispoke(HUNDREDS of people). every single person who said 'molten' mispoke. and every freudian slipped admission of guilt from rummy, bushy or cheney was simply mispoken.
who's 'stupid enough'?
BWHAHAHAHAHA!
he 'simply mispoke' the exact same story on two seperate occasions. talk about a terrible pilot.
Are you stupid enough to continue to insist that W saw the first plane???
Let's see...
Either W set up the whole operation and had a private link of closed circuit TV so he could see the first plane hit...
or...
You and he are just a couple of dumbasses and the president misspoke (or, who knows, is dumb enough to think he saw the first plane).
Grumpy
do you think they can afford close circuit tv? do you think close circuit tv is sci-fi?
lol.
ever single person who said 'explosion' mispoke(HUNDREDS of people). every single person who said 'molten' mispoke. and every freudian slipped admission of guilt from rummy, bushy or cheney was simply mispoken.
who's 'stupid enough'?
BWHAHAHAHAHA!
he 'simply mispoke' the exact same story on two seperate occasions. talk about a terrible pilot.
QUOTE (newton+Mar 6 2007, 03:04 AM)
do you think they can afford close circuit tv? do you think close circuit tv is sci-fi?
lol.
ever single person who said 'explosion' mispoke(HUNDREDS of people). every single person who said 'molten' mispoke. and every freudian slipped admission of guilt from rummy, bushy or cheney was simply mispoken.
who's 'stupid enough'?
BWHAHAHAHAHA!
he 'simply mispoke' the exact same story on two seperate occasions. talk about a terrible pilot.
who's 'stupid enough'?
GWB Ct over lets get back to Science we all agree I believe that GWB is not the brightest bulb in the white house.
Also a lot of what is going on is people talking without understanding what they are actually referring too. It happens people make mistakes.
You know if Cters were credible they would not have to twist quotes around so much and would admit when they are wrong!
lol.
ever single person who said 'explosion' mispoke(HUNDREDS of people). every single person who said 'molten' mispoke. and every freudian slipped admission of guilt from rummy, bushy or cheney was simply mispoken.
who's 'stupid enough'?
BWHAHAHAHAHA!
he 'simply mispoke' the exact same story on two seperate occasions. talk about a terrible pilot.
who's 'stupid enough'?
GWB Ct over lets get back to Science we all agree I believe that GWB is not the brightest bulb in the white house.
Also a lot of what is going on is people talking without understanding what they are actually referring too. It happens people make mistakes.
You know if Cters were credible they would not have to twist quotes around so much and would admit when they are wrong!
Challenge to all OCT’ers and NIST’ians (basically the same beliefs).
Show how and were NIST came up with the mythical 5 kips per column per floor lateral force on the collapsing wall(calculations and references please).
This is the very foundation of the OCT and NIST fairy tale so it should be easy to show were and how NIST arrived at this figure.
Show how and were NIST came up with the mythical 5 kips per column per floor lateral force on the collapsing wall(calculations and references please).
This is the very foundation of the OCT and NIST fairy tale so it should be easy to show were and how NIST arrived at this figure.
I actually read some of the ridicules, www.debunking911.com , that the posters CS ,DBB, ScottS and FactCheck are part of and DBB linked to.
Look at the CONSPIRACY against the BBC these sleuths uncovered:
Alex Jone and Feltzer are really getting powerful.
Note to Ct'er CS ,DBB, ScottS and FactCheck . It might have something to do with the message and not the messenger.
Look at the CONSPIRACY against the BBC these sleuths uncovered:
QUOTE
BBC's response...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2007...conspiracy.html
I smell a deliberate attempt to quite the media. It's not lost on me that the BBC recently created a story which casts the conspiracy leaders in a bad light. What media will want to expose the misinformation and deception of these conspiracy leaders if they incur the wrath of a few fringe lunatics? Apparently Alex Jones, Fetzer and Co. would like their own shadowy, loose nit government based on fear. B@@!
Another update:
It seems I wasn't far off from what the BBC suspects happened. They even reference the CNN video above.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2007...nspiracy_2.html
Thanks to ScottS and David B. Benson for their contributions
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2007...conspiracy.html
I smell a deliberate attempt to quite the media. It's not lost on me that the BBC recently created a story which casts the conspiracy leaders in a bad light. What media will want to expose the misinformation and deception of these conspiracy leaders if they incur the wrath of a few fringe lunatics? Apparently Alex Jones, Fetzer and Co. would like their own shadowy, loose nit government based on fear. B@@!
Another update:
It seems I wasn't far off from what the BBC suspects happened. They even reference the CNN video above.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2007...nspiracy_2.html
Thanks to ScottS and David B. Benson for their contributions
Alex Jone and Feltzer are really getting powerful.
Note to Ct'er CS ,DBB, ScottS and FactCheck . It might have something to do with the message and not the messenger.
DBB, which movie are you refering to ?
But why are we worrying about a wedge process ?? Wasn't the E1 model already a good approximation ?
But why are we worrying about a wedge process ?? Wasn't the E1 model already a good approximation ?
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 6 2007, 07:37 AM)
I actually read some of the ridicules, www.debunking911.com , that the posters CS ,DBB, ScottS and FactCheck are part of and DBB linked to.
Look at the CONSPIRACY against the BBC these sleuths uncovered:
Alex Jone and Feltzer are really getting powerful.
Note to Ct'er CS ,DBB, ScottS and FactCheck . It might have something to do with the message and not the messenger.
Ha you just got to love that the Cter debunks himself, Feltzer's and Dr. steven Jones have split over the microwave space weapon beam theory, and the even more impossible thermite theory. DA.
The Cters are now praying on their own, they have in fact become Cannibals.
After all Alex Jones is just a dis-info artist or didn't you know that? DA.
Look at the CONSPIRACY against the BBC these sleuths uncovered:
Alex Jone and Feltzer are really getting powerful.
Note to Ct'er CS ,DBB, ScottS and FactCheck . It might have something to do with the message and not the messenger.
Ha you just got to love that the Cter debunks himself, Feltzer's and Dr. steven Jones have split over the microwave space weapon beam theory, and the even more impossible thermite theory. DA.
The Cters are now praying on their own, they have in fact become Cannibals.
After all Alex Jones is just a dis-info artist or didn't you know that? DA.
QUOTE (kahlmyishmael+Mar 5 2007, 05:37 PM)
David... are there any WTC tower photos where the steel beams are cut at close to 45 degree angles...
...as are done in controlled demolitions?
...as are done in controlled demolitions?
QUOTE (FactCheck+Mar 5 2007, 07:32 PM)
You mean this...


Game, set, match . . . .


Game, set, match . . . .
QUOTE (Grumpy+Feb 2 2007, 02:44 PM)
beijingyank
About the same percentage think the Creation story in Genisis is a factual acount. Never underestimate the ability of the general public to be misinformed. Science is NEVER a popularity contest.
NIST did an excellent investigation and explanation of the towers collapse. Just because you have not read/understood it does not change the FACT that it stands unchallenged.
You have yet to show a single instance where molten STEEL was found anywhere in the WTC complex. Molten steel is still just a disinformation mantra from the know-nothing crowd. All such reports turned out to be bogus.
The cancer and other ailments are caused by the inhalation of dust, according to the medical community. Any speculation about nuclear devices is illogical and foolish. A nuclear event would have been obvious and would have immediately destroyed everything for blocks around the complex. The smallest nuclear explosion possible would have left a glass lined smoking crater and the electro-magnetic pulse would have wiped the memories of every video camera within line of site. There was no nuclear event on 9/11, this is just the speculations of an ignorant mind and a red herring.
Not by the experts(expert=someone who knows what he is talking about), they have already ruled out any explosives(which leave distinctive traces absent in all the data).
Already done(which you would know if you bothered to look).
Grumpy
Bold assertions, grumpy, but rather facile and unsourced. To address one of them, the "excellent investigation and explanation for the tower's collapse". In fact, the NIST report does not answer the question as to how the buildings fell but only the conditions leading up to the disintegration of the buildings. The NIST is currently the subject of an injunction to address questions the accuracy and veracity of its analysis these events. And, on the face of it, six years seems like a long time to delay the report on WTC7 which has yet to be completed by the NIST.
example from the request:
example from the request:
As indicated, this request is to be understood as being submitted by requester in his said capacity and either additionally or alternatively on behalf of other similarly situated persons who are too numerous to quantify or specifically name. Requester is adversely affected by the ongoing threat of promulgation of information that is in need of correction because the present course of action may result in the further concealment of serious wrongdoing.
Specifically, Information Item No. 1 fails to comply with applicable information quality guidelines and standards in a number of particular ways, including, but not limited to inclusion of the following demonstrably false statement found at page 11 of Information Item No. 1:
“NIST is analyzing scenarios for the event that initiated the collapse of WTC 7. As a part of this work, NIST is considering whether hypothetical blast events could have played a role in initiating the collapse. While NIST has found no evidence of a blast or controlled demolition event, NIST will estimate the magnitude of hypothetical blast scenarios that could have led to the structural failure of one or more critical elements as a result of blast.” (Bold emphasis added)
Requester asserts that the quoted information is demonstrably false and misleading and must be corrected, together with other information that, at present, also contains false and misleading statements. Said information is false in and as a result of the following particulars:
NIST’s NCSTSAR 1 report, issued in or about the month of October 2005, contains the following statement that must be deemed applicable to the ongoing investigation of what caused the 6.6-second destruction of WTC building 7 and to Information Item No. 1:
“NIST found no corroborating evidence for alternative hypotheses suggesting that the WTC towers were brought down by controlled demolition using explosives planted prior to September 11, 2001.”
It is to be noted that NCSTAR 1 repeats the above quoted phrase in no fewer than three widely separated passages of that document; namely: pgs xxxvii, 146, and 176, respectively.
Separate and apart from an analysis of the context in which the quoted statement is to be found, there exists a profound difference between the quoted statement and the statement that is now found in connection with the ongoing work of determining what caused the symmetrical, 6.6 second destruction of WTC 7 and quoted above; namely, the quoted statement from page 11 of Information Item No. 1 that completely contradicts the quoted portion of NCSTAR 1. For purposes of clarity and ease of comparison the two different and mutually contradictory statements are set forth below, one right after the other:
(Bold emphasis added)
About the same percentage think the Creation story in Genisis is a factual acount. Never underestimate the ability of the general public to be misinformed. Science is NEVER a popularity contest.
NIST did an excellent investigation and explanation of the towers collapse. Just because you have not read/understood it does not change the FACT that it stands unchallenged.
You have yet to show a single instance where molten STEEL was found anywhere in the WTC complex. Molten steel is still just a disinformation mantra from the know-nothing crowd. All such reports turned out to be bogus.
The cancer and other ailments are caused by the inhalation of dust, according to the medical community. Any speculation about nuclear devices is illogical and foolish. A nuclear event would have been obvious and would have immediately destroyed everything for blocks around the complex. The smallest nuclear explosion possible would have left a glass lined smoking crater and the electro-magnetic pulse would have wiped the memories of every video camera within line of site. There was no nuclear event on 9/11, this is just the speculations of an ignorant mind and a red herring.
Not by the experts(expert=someone who knows what he is talking about), they have already ruled out any explosives(which leave distinctive traces absent in all the data).
Already done(which you would know if you bothered to look).
Grumpy
Bold assertions, grumpy, but rather facile and unsourced. To address one of them, the "excellent investigation and explanation for the tower's collapse". In fact, the NIST report does not answer the question as to how the buildings fell but only the conditions leading up to the disintegration of the buildings. The NIST is currently the subject of an injunction to address questions the accuracy and veracity of its analysis these events. And, on the face of it, six years seems like a long time to delay the report on WTC7 which has yet to be completed by the NIST.
QUOTE
]Effort to halt government WTC7 investigation launched
http://www.muckrakerreport.com/id367.html
excerpt;
March 1, 2007 – The following Request for Correction was e-mailed to the National Institute of Standards and Technology on February 28, 2007. It will be certified mailed on March 1, 2007. Attorney Jerry Leaphart has informed me that he will work on the legal papers for an injunction this weekend.
The subject matter within this Request for Correction and pending filing for injunction is purposeful. The reader might be tempted to conclude that many other contradictions found within the government investigation of WTC1, WTC2, and WTC7 should have been referenced in this Request for Correction. I can assure you that great thought went into this effort and it mirrors the advice of counsel. What some might conclude as “too narrow” is actually advantageous to achieving the goal – the truth.
http://www.muckrakerreport.com/id367.html
excerpt;
March 1, 2007 – The following Request for Correction was e-mailed to the National Institute of Standards and Technology on February 28, 2007. It will be certified mailed on March 1, 2007. Attorney Jerry Leaphart has informed me that he will work on the legal papers for an injunction this weekend.
The subject matter within this Request for Correction and pending filing for injunction is purposeful. The reader might be tempted to conclude that many other contradictions found within the government investigation of WTC1, WTC2, and WTC7 should have been referenced in this Request for Correction. I can assure you that great thought went into this effort and it mirrors the advice of counsel. What some might conclude as “too narrow” is actually advantageous to achieving the goal – the truth.
example from the request:
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| ]Effort to halt government WTC7 investigation launched http://www.muckrakerreport.com/id367.html excerpt; March 1, 2007 – The following Request for Correction was e-mailed to the National Institute of Standards and Technology on February 28, 2007. It will be certified mailed on March 1, 2007. Attorney Jerry Leaphart has informed me that he will work on the legal papers for an injunction this weekend. The subject matter within this Request for Correction and pending filing for injunction is purposeful. The reader might be tempted to conclude that many other contradictions found within the government investigation of WTC1, WTC2, and WTC7 should have been referenced in this Request for Correction. I can assure you that great thought went into this effort and it mirrors the advice of counsel. What some might conclude as “too narrow” is actually advantageous to achieving the goal – the truth. |
example from the request:
As indicated, this request is to be understood as being submitted by requester in his said capacity and either additionally or alternatively on behalf of other similarly situated persons who are too numerous to quantify or specifically name. Requester is adversely affected by the ongoing threat of promulgation of information that is in need of correction because the present course of action may result in the further concealment of serious wrongdoing.
Specifically, Information Item No. 1 fails to comply with applicable information quality guidelines and standards in a number of particular ways, including, but not limited to inclusion of the following demonstrably false statement found at page 11 of Information Item No. 1:
“NIST is analyzing scenarios for the event that initiated the collapse of WTC 7. As a part of this work, NIST is considering whether hypothetical blast events could have played a role in initiating the collapse. While NIST has found no evidence of a blast or controlled demolition event, NIST will estimate the magnitude of hypothetical blast scenarios that could have led to the structural failure of one or more critical elements as a result of blast.” (Bold emphasis added)
Requester asserts that the quoted information is demonstrably false and misleading and must be corrected, together with other information that, at present, also contains false and misleading statements. Said information is false in and as a result of the following particulars:
NIST’s NCSTSAR 1 report, issued in or about the month of October 2005, contains the following statement that must be deemed applicable to the ongoing investigation of what caused the 6.6-second destruction of WTC building 7 and to Information Item No. 1:
“NIST found no corroborating evidence for alternative hypotheses suggesting that the WTC towers were brought down by controlled demolition using explosives planted prior to September 11, 2001.”
It is to be noted that NCSTAR 1 repeats the above quoted phrase in no fewer than three widely separated passages of that document; namely: pgs xxxvii, 146, and 176, respectively.
Separate and apart from an analysis of the context in which the quoted statement is to be found, there exists a profound difference between the quoted statement and the statement that is now found in connection with the ongoing work of determining what caused the symmetrical, 6.6 second destruction of WTC 7 and quoted above; namely, the quoted statement from page 11 of Information Item No. 1 that completely contradicts the quoted portion of NCSTAR 1. For purposes of clarity and ease of comparison the two different and mutually contradictory statements are set forth below, one right after the other:
(Bold emphasis added)
I am not going to do anything but read replies as i cant be bother do argue any of the physics.
I found this on You Tube. Why and how were they reporting on WTC7 collapse before it happened. The only reasoning is that someone knew it was going to happen, planed the report, and got it wrong.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0l9blqHHOyg
I found this on You Tube. Why and how were they reporting on WTC7 collapse before it happened. The only reasoning is that someone knew it was going to happen, planed the report, and got it wrong.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0l9blqHHOyg
QUOTE (Madkite+Mar 6 2007, 01:19 PM)
I am not going to do anything but read replies as i cant be bother do argue any of the physics.
I found this on You Tube. Why and how were they reporting on WTC7 collapse before it happened. The only reasoning is that someone knew it was going to happen, planed the report, and got it wrong.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0l9blqHHOyg
Or one side of the building the one the tower fell on partially collapsed and they are reporting the partial collapse of that one side and the collapse, 23 minutes long from initiation, of the rest of the building! DA
When I posted this same video showing that the building was Known to be collapsing on the INTERNET 4 years ago the CTers said it was dis-info, now look they think it is new news, sorry the story of the video is well known!
However it does prove that Cters are masters of Dis-Info!
OH a building falls on another building a fuel line breaks and starts a large fire, the building bulges and leans toward the damage side, and people suspect it might fall like two other buildings that have already fallen!
Gee you must be right it is a smoking gun and you just shoot yourself in the genitals with it!
I found this on You Tube. Why and how were they reporting on WTC7 collapse before it happened. The only reasoning is that someone knew it was going to happen, planed the report, and got it wrong.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0l9blqHHOyg
Or one side of the building the one the tower fell on partially collapsed and they are reporting the partial collapse of that one side and the collapse, 23 minutes long from initiation, of the rest of the building! DA
When I posted this same video showing that the building was Known to be collapsing on the INTERNET 4 years ago the CTers said it was dis-info, now look they think it is new news, sorry the story of the video is well known!
However it does prove that Cters are masters of Dis-Info!
OH a building falls on another building a fuel line breaks and starts a large fire, the building bulges and leans toward the damage side, and people suspect it might fall like two other buildings that have already fallen!
Gee you must be right it is a smoking gun and you just shoot yourself in the genitals with it!
Capracus,
Theorem:
If a building consisting of N stories starts collapsing at floor 0<m<N then the first piece of debris that hits ground zero must come from floor m
Proof:
Without using explicit math, a piece of debris leaving the pancake process can have a maximum theoretical velocity equal to the collapsing mass, an angle>0 gives a vertical speed which is lower (use a sinus for example) but that speed is already less than that of the mass that left the building. Now the distance it reached is also less than that of the debris that left the building in the beginning because a_building <g etc. this implies we have a new velocity equation with a slower start velocity and a lower distance => hence it will reach ground zero later.
Theorem:
If a building consisting of N stories starts collapsing at floor 0<m<N then the first piece of debris that hits ground zero must come from floor m
Proof:
Without using explicit math, a piece of debris leaving the pancake process can have a maximum theoretical velocity equal to the collapsing mass, an angle>0 gives a vertical speed which is lower (use a sinus for example) but that speed is already less than that of the mass that left the building. Now the distance it reached is also less than that of the debris that left the building in the beginning because a_building <g etc. this implies we have a new velocity equation with a slower start velocity and a lower distance => hence it will reach ground zero later.
QUOTE (Chainsaw+,Mar 6 2007, 05:32 AM)
Or one side of the building the one the tower fell on partially collapsed and they are reporting the partial collapse of that one side and the collapse, 23 minutes long from initiation, of the rest of the building! DA
When I posted this same video showing that the building was Known to be collapsing on the INTERNET 4 years ago the CTers said it was dis-info, now look they think it is new news, sorry the story of the video is well known!
However it does prove that Cters are masters of Dis-Info!
OH a building falls on another building a fuel line breaks and starts a large fire, the building bulges and leans toward the damage side, and people suspect it might fall like two other buildings that have already fallen!
Gee you must be right it is a smoking gun and you just shoot yourself in the genitals with it!
Please post a link to the information you posted four years ago?
When I posted this same video showing that the building was Known to be collapsing on the INTERNET 4 years ago the CTers said it was dis-info, now look they think it is new news, sorry the story of the video is well known!
However it does prove that Cters are masters of Dis-Info!
OH a building falls on another building a fuel line breaks and starts a large fire, the building bulges and leans toward the damage side, and people suspect it might fall like two other buildings that have already fallen!
Gee you must be right it is a smoking gun and you just shoot yourself in the genitals with it!
Please post a link to the information you posted four years ago?
QUOTE (Chainsaw,+Mar 6 2007, 03:21 AM)
Ha you just got to love that the Cter debunks himself, Feltzer's and Dr. steven Jones have split over the microwave space weapon beam theory, and the even more impossible thermite theory. DA.
The Cters are now praying on their own, they have in fact become Cannibals.
After all Alex Jones is just a dis-info artist or didn't you know that? DA.
I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say in this post.
I was making fun of your fellow Ct'ers.
The Cters are now praying on their own, they have in fact become Cannibals.
After all Alex Jones is just a dis-info artist or didn't you know that? DA.
I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say in this post.
I was making fun of your fellow Ct'ers.
einsteen
Again you miss the facts. The "Bagelling" process took place within the still intact outer frame of the bottom portion, very little of the floor contents COULD escape(only from the windows) and the vast majority was funnelled into the basement levels. The visible collapse was BEHIND this initial collapse and consisted almost exclusively of the outer frames being pushed aside by the top block, accompanied by the dust created by the bagelling floors.
who
Again you miss the facts. The "Bagelling" process took place within the still intact outer frame of the bottom portion, very little of the floor contents COULD escape(only from the windows) and the vast majority was funnelled into the basement levels. The visible collapse was BEHIND this initial collapse and consisted almost exclusively of the outer frames being pushed aside by the top block, accompanied by the dust created by the bagelling floors.
who
The NIST is currently the subject of an injunction to address questions the accuracy and veracity of its analysis these events.
NIST is, by law, imune from such actions, they are protected from all sources of pressure and are thus free to go only where the evidence leads.
From the injunction...
I think NIST's statement covers it. NO CORROBERATING EVIDENCE=NO EXPLOSIVES USED. Noone has falsified NIST's conclusions yet
Seismic data ALONE gives a collapse time of at least 18 seconds, add in the time for the fall of debris and you get 24 seconds for the collapse. Firemen report that the building was crumbling a full 23 minutes before the final collapse(this is probably the source of the BBC and ABC's reports).
The pseudoscientific claims of ANY party are not binding on NIST's investigations. If the parties to this injunction knew antyhing about the law then this can be seen for what it is, a publicity stunt that will go nowhere in a court of law.
Grumpy
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/general2.htm
QUOTE
a piece of debris leaving the pancake process
Again you miss the facts. The "Bagelling" process took place within the still intact outer frame of the bottom portion, very little of the floor contents COULD escape(only from the windows) and the vast majority was funnelled into the basement levels. The visible collapse was BEHIND this initial collapse and consisted almost exclusively of the outer frames being pushed aside by the top block, accompanied by the dust created by the bagelling floors.
who
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| a piece of debris leaving the pancake process |
Again you miss the facts. The "Bagelling" process took place within the still intact outer frame of the bottom portion, very little of the floor contents COULD escape(only from the windows) and the vast majority was funnelled into the basement levels. The visible collapse was BEHIND this initial collapse and consisted almost exclusively of the outer frames being pushed aside by the top block, accompanied by the dust created by the bagelling floors.
who
The NIST is currently the subject of an injunction to address questions the accuracy and veracity of its analysis these events.
NIST is, by law, imune from such actions, they are protected from all sources of pressure and are thus free to go only where the evidence leads.
From the injunction...
QUOTE
NIST’s NCSTSAR 1 report, issued in or about the month of October 2005, contains the following statement that must be deemed applicable to the ongoing investigation of what caused the 6.6-second destruction of WTC building 7 and to Information Item No. 1:
“NIST found no corroborating evidence for alternative hypotheses suggesting that the WTC towers were brought down by controlled demolition using explosives planted prior to September 11, 2001.”
“NIST found no corroborating evidence for alternative hypotheses suggesting that the WTC towers were brought down by controlled demolition using explosives planted prior to September 11, 2001.”
I think NIST's statement covers it. NO CORROBERATING EVIDENCE=NO EXPLOSIVES USED. Noone has falsified NIST's conclusions yet
Seismic data ALONE gives a collapse time of at least 18 seconds, add in the time for the fall of debris and you get 24 seconds for the collapse. Firemen report that the building was crumbling a full 23 minutes before the final collapse(this is probably the source of the BBC and ABC's reports).
The pseudoscientific claims of ANY party are not binding on NIST's investigations. If the parties to this injunction knew antyhing about the law then this can be seen for what it is, a publicity stunt that will go nowhere in a court of law.
Grumpy
QUOTE (Grumpy+Mar 6 2007, 08:15 AM)
who
NIST is, by law, imune from such actions, they are protected from all sources of pressure and are thus free to go only where the evidence leads.
Grumpy
That is why NIST published a report on the collapse of the WTC and left out the collapse.
NIST is, by law, imune from such actions, they are protected from all sources of pressure and are thus free to go only where the evidence leads.
Grumpy
That is why NIST published a report on the collapse of the WTC and left out the collapse.
QUOTE
Founded in 1901, NIST is a non-regulatory federal agency within the U.S. Commerce Department's Technology Administration. NIST's mission is to promote U.S. innovation and industrial competitiveness by advancing measurement science, standards, and technology in ways that enhance economic security and improve our quality of life.
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/general2.htm
reasonwhy
NIST assumed anyone reading their report would understand that once collapse began, no resistence left in those buildings would be able to stop it. And that there is little else to be learned(law of deminishing returns) in spending great deals of time and money in an attempt to model such chaotic behavior. I think they grossly overestimated the intelligence of some and underestimated the lack of intelligence and gullibility of others, they were, after all used to dealing with collegues who were real scientists, not those that play at being scientists on the internet(for fun and profit).
Grumpy
QUOTE
That is why NIST published a report on the collapse of the WTC and left out the collapse.
NIST assumed anyone reading their report would understand that once collapse began, no resistence left in those buildings would be able to stop it. And that there is little else to be learned(law of deminishing returns) in spending great deals of time and money in an attempt to model such chaotic behavior. I think they grossly overestimated the intelligence of some and underestimated the lack of intelligence and gullibility of others, they were, after all used to dealing with collegues who were real scientists, not those that play at being scientists on the internet(for fun and profit).
Grumpy
QUOTE (Grumpy+Mar 6 2007, 08:59 AM)
reasonwhy
NIST assumed anyone reading their report would understand that once collapse began, no resistence left in those buildings would be able to stop it. And that there is little else to be learned(law of deminishing returns) in spending great deals of time and money in an attempt to model such chaotic behavior. I think they grossly overestimated the intelligence of some and underestimated the lack of intelligence and gullibility of others, they were, after all used to dealing with collegues who were real scientists, not those that play at being scientists on the internet(for fun and profit).
Grumpy
With your self proclaimed superior intelligence this should be easy to answer:
The pseudoscientific claims of ANY party are not binding on NIST's investigations. If the parties to this injunction knew antyhing about the law then this can be seen for what it is, a publicity stunt that will go nowhere in a court of law.
Grumpy
However, expect this injunction to further delay the release of NISTs final report. (lawyers will be lawyers) Thus further fueling the CTer paranoia, never mind that they themselves are the actual reason for the delay.

http://www.debunking911.com/push.jpg
Not all column trees went inside the building but it's obvious most did.
NIST assumed anyone reading their report would understand that once collapse began, no resistence left in those buildings would be able to stop it. And that there is little else to be learned(law of deminishing returns) in spending great deals of time and money in an attempt to model such chaotic behavior. I think they grossly overestimated the intelligence of some and underestimated the lack of intelligence and gullibility of others, they were, after all used to dealing with collegues who were real scientists, not those that play at being scientists on the internet(for fun and profit).
Grumpy
With your self proclaimed superior intelligence this should be easy to answer:
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 5 2007, 09:09 PM)
Challenge to all OCT’ers and NIST’ians (basically the same beliefs).
Show how and were NIST came up with the mythical 5 kips per column per floor lateral force on the collapsing wall(calculations and references please).
This is the very foundation of the OCT and NIST fairy tale so it should be easy to show were and how NIST arrived at this figure.
Show how and were NIST came up with the mythical 5 kips per column per floor lateral force on the collapsing wall(calculations and references please).
This is the very foundation of the OCT and NIST fairy tale so it should be easy to show were and how NIST arrived at this figure.
reasonwhy
I see no reason to do your research for you, you've already proven you can't(or worse, won't) understand it if I did. Go, waste your own time, I won't be wasting any of mine for you.
NIST still stands as the best investigation of any catastrophy in the history of man. You and your fellow tin hatters have yet to put a scratch on their conclusions. I personnally don't care if you ever educate yourself out of your paranoia and delusions, seek professional help, they have chemicals for that. In the mean time I(and others) will continue to swat the buzzing flies of ignorance and disinformation whenever they rise from the piles of crap that are the "troother" websites.
Grumpy
QUOTE
QUOTE (reasonwhy @ Mar 5 2007, 09:09 PM)
Challenge to all OCT’ers and NIST’ians (basically the same beliefs).
Show how and were NIST came up with the mythical 5 kips per column per floor lateral force on the collapsing wall(calculations and references please).
This is the very foundation of the OCT and NIST fairy tale so it should be easy to show were and how NIST arrived at this figure.
Challenge to all OCT’ers and NIST’ians (basically the same beliefs).
Show how and were NIST came up with the mythical 5 kips per column per floor lateral force on the collapsing wall(calculations and references please).
This is the very foundation of the OCT and NIST fairy tale so it should be easy to show were and how NIST arrived at this figure.
I see no reason to do your research for you, you've already proven you can't(or worse, won't) understand it if I did. Go, waste your own time, I won't be wasting any of mine for you.
NIST still stands as the best investigation of any catastrophy in the history of man. You and your fellow tin hatters have yet to put a scratch on their conclusions. I personnally don't care if you ever educate yourself out of your paranoia and delusions, seek professional help, they have chemicals for that. In the mean time I(and others) will continue to swat the buzzing flies of ignorance and disinformation whenever they rise from the piles of crap that are the "troother" websites.
Grumpy
QUOTE (Grumpy+Mar 6 2007, 10:15 AM)
The pseudoscientific claims of ANY party are not binding on NIST's investigations. If the parties to this injunction knew antyhing about the law then this can be seen for what it is, a publicity stunt that will go nowhere in a court of law.
Grumpy
However, expect this injunction to further delay the release of NISTs final report. (lawyers will be lawyers) Thus further fueling the CTer paranoia, never mind that they themselves are the actual reason for the delay.
Grumpy, it seems that you are able to know exactly how the collapse occured, not bad because only collapse initiation is peer-reviewed. I only wanted to show that a big part of the toppling block falls on ground zero instead of funneling into the small part between the perimeter columns and the massive square block of inner core columns that also have trusses within.
Collapse initiation for WTC 1 again --- At 8 arc-degrees, on the horizontal line that was floor 98, the top block (ideally) extends 0.626 meters further south beyond the (former) position of the lower portion of the south wall. So the lower portion of the top wall is pushed out and the upper portion is pushed in.
This combination is said to be wedging in.
Bazant & Verdure make it clear that for collapse to occur, crush-down only must occur. Except possibly at collapse initiation, where some crush-up might occur. Indeed, shagster posted a vid-clip which shows some crush-up in that part or a corner of WTC 1 did not participate in the tilting. Indeed, some of the perimeter wall sections of the top block were probably damaged enough to be expelled. But the majority were not.
einsteen --- You posted about seeing corner columns simply crushed, not wedging in. This seems interesting and I would like to observe myself, if possible. (Not that I am very good at photo-interpretation.)
Greening/B&V style analysis suffices for a one dimensional model of idealized progressive collapse. However, neither of the papers offers persuasive argument regarding collapse initiation. So the initial stages are still of some research interest.
The wedge-in certainly occurred in that large portions of various walls did not participate in the progressive collapse, only to fall over later. Also, numerous perimeter wall sections and columns were laterally ejected all over Ground Zero. Wedge-in explains this ejection.
Grumpy --- The bageling occurred only at the main collapse front. The 12 acre-feet of air has to be mostly ejected from a story before the crushing mass can reach the next actual floor. This is a lot of dirty air!
This combination is said to be wedging in.
Bazant & Verdure make it clear that for collapse to occur, crush-down only must occur. Except possibly at collapse initiation, where some crush-up might occur. Indeed, shagster posted a vid-clip which shows some crush-up in that part or a corner of WTC 1 did not participate in the tilting. Indeed, some of the perimeter wall sections of the top block were probably damaged enough to be expelled. But the majority were not.
einsteen --- You posted about seeing corner columns simply crushed, not wedging in. This seems interesting and I would like to observe myself, if possible. (Not that I am very good at photo-interpretation.)
Greening/B&V style analysis suffices for a one dimensional model of idealized progressive collapse. However, neither of the papers offers persuasive argument regarding collapse initiation. So the initial stages are still of some research interest.
The wedge-in certainly occurred in that large portions of various walls did not participate in the progressive collapse, only to fall over later. Also, numerous perimeter wall sections and columns were laterally ejected all over Ground Zero. Wedge-in explains this ejection.
Grumpy --- The bageling occurred only at the main collapse front. The 12 acre-feet of air has to be mostly ejected from a story before the crushing mass can reach the next actual floor. This is a lot of dirty air!
einsteen --- Thanks, but I have no way to view the video.
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Mar 6 2007, 03:12 PM)
Please post a link to the information you posted four years ago?
Search the bad Astronomy forum it is in there, posted by several of the people on that forum in the conspiracy section of 9/11 which is closed on that forum and on myspace in conversations with Lyte Trip over the conversations there.
The first time I posted it was on a forum on MSN network, that forum has since been closed, and the owner to ashamed of his truther past has deleted everything.
That video was originally broadcast by the BBC on Sept, 11/ 2001 and you think it is new News! Pathetic.
I do not have time to search though four years of bull, that the Cters posted to find one post.
There are laterally thousands of post in those treads, and most of the CTERs posts are total bull!
Why don't you prove the video is new and never broad cast before on any channel or on the INTERNET. DA
That should be easy if it really is the smoking gun you claim.
Your the one claiming the video is new and relevant even though it has been around since 2001!
First provide proof that the Video is the undeniable new smoking gun you claim it to be, and not a re-spin of old News reports!
Search the bad Astronomy forum it is in there, posted by several of the people on that forum in the conspiracy section of 9/11 which is closed on that forum and on myspace in conversations with Lyte Trip over the conversations there.
The first time I posted it was on a forum on MSN network, that forum has since been closed, and the owner to ashamed of his truther past has deleted everything.
That video was originally broadcast by the BBC on Sept, 11/ 2001 and you think it is new News! Pathetic.
I do not have time to search though four years of bull, that the Cters posted to find one post.
There are laterally thousands of post in those treads, and most of the CTERs posts are total bull!
Why don't you prove the video is new and never broad cast before on any channel or on the INTERNET. DA
That should be easy if it really is the smoking gun you claim.
Your the one claiming the video is new and relevant even though it has been around since 2001!
First provide proof that the Video is the undeniable new smoking gun you claim it to be, and not a re-spin of old News reports!
QUOTE (einsteen+Mar 6 2007, 10:22 PM)
DBB, uploaded for you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avf2gDWQlck
That's deliberately deceptive because you only show one side and only about two column trees fall outside the building.
From the same side but with the parts you edited out...

http://www.debunking911.com/wtc1c1.jpg

http://www.debunking911.com/wtc1c2.jpg

http://www.debunking911.com/wtc1c3.jpg

http://www.debunking911.com/wtc1c4.jpg

http://www.debunking911.com/wtc1c5.jpg

http://www.debunking911.com/wtc1c6.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avf2gDWQlck
That's deliberately deceptive because you only show one side and only about two column trees fall outside the building.
From the same side but with the parts you edited out...

http://www.debunking911.com/wtc1c1.jpg

http://www.debunking911.com/wtc1c2.jpg

http://www.debunking911.com/wtc1c3.jpg

http://www.debunking911.com/wtc1c4.jpg

http://www.debunking911.com/wtc1c5.jpg

http://www.debunking911.com/wtc1c6.jpg

http://www.debunking911.com/push.jpg
Not all column trees went inside the building but it's obvious most did.
einsteen --- If the video you posted is of the north face of WTC 1, then I very much doubt that any details regarding even the east face can be made out.
If the corner you were referring to is the northeast corner, I would expect the columns to be crushed at the hinge...
If the corner you were referring to is the northeast corner, I would expect the columns to be crushed at the hinge...
QUOTE (who+Mar 6 2007, 08:01 AM)
The NIST is currently the subject of an injunction to address questions the accuracy and veracity of its analysis these events.
False
Arthur
False
Arthur
I thought I saw a post wondering why NIST used a 5 kip pull-in force, over 5 floors, to obtain the observed bowing of the south wall of WTC 1 and east wall of WTC 2.
NCSTAR1-6D Chapter 3 explains the use of an isolated wall model to obtain some values needed for the final so-called global model. In this portion of the study, some minor buckling of the isolated wall was obtained, but insufficient to explain the observations.
So in Chapter 5, we have a distributed 5 kip pull-in force. Engineering approximation.
NCSTAR1-6D Chapter 3 explains the use of an isolated wall model to obtain some values needed for the final so-called global model. In this portion of the study, some minor buckling of the isolated wall was obtained, but insufficient to explain the observations.
So in Chapter 5, we have a distributed 5 kip pull-in force. Engineering approximation.
QUOTE (adoucette+Mar 7 2007, 01:10 AM)
False
Arthur
I would have used the word LIE. Not that he lied but the leaders of the movement lied to him.
Arthur
I would have used the word LIE. Not that he lied but the leaders of the movement lied to him.
For more background:
http://www.genadycherepanov.com/911.asp
and
http://www.genadycherepanov.com/More911.asp
http://www.genadycherepanov.com/911.asp
and
http://www.genadycherepanov.com/More911.asp
QUOTE (einsteen+Mar 6 2007, 02:47 PM)
Capracus,
Theorem:
If a building consisting of N stories starts collapsing at floor 0<m<N then the first piece of debris that hits ground zero must come from floor m
Proof:
Without using explicit math, a piece of debris leaving the pancake process can have a maximum theoretical velocity equal to the collapsing mass, an angle>0 gives a vertical speed which is lower (use a sinus for example) but that speed is already less than that of the mass that left the building. Now the distance it reached is also less than that of the debris that left the building in the beginning because a_building <g etc. this implies we have a new velocity equation with a slower start velocity and a lower distance => hence it will reach ground zero later.
einsteen, I don't think that all ejected material was only subject to acceleration due to gravity in the vertical direction.
Can you envision a situation where, for example, a 36 ft perimeter section could be horizontally accelerated to say a 100 fps, and due to a weakly hinged lower connection, the section could rotate into a gravity plus downward velocity?
I can imagine that structural members were continually storing and releasing energies during the whole collapse period, and imparting motion to materials in all directions.
Theorem:
If a building consisting of N stories starts collapsing at floor 0<m<N then the first piece of debris that hits ground zero must come from floor m
Proof:
Without using explicit math, a piece of debris leaving the pancake process can have a maximum theoretical velocity equal to the collapsing mass, an angle>0 gives a vertical speed which is lower (use a sinus for example) but that speed is already less than that of the mass that left the building. Now the distance it reached is also less than that of the debris that left the building in the beginning because a_building <g etc. this implies we have a new velocity equation with a slower start velocity and a lower distance => hence it will reach ground zero later.
einsteen, I don't think that all ejected material was only subject to acceleration due to gravity in the vertical direction.
Can you envision a situation where, for example, a 36 ft perimeter section could be horizontally accelerated to say a 100 fps, and due to a weakly hinged lower connection, the section could rotate into a gravity plus downward velocity?
I can imagine that structural members were continually storing and releasing energies during the whole collapse period, and imparting motion to materials in all directions.
QUOTE (eigenvalue+Mar 7 2007, 04:12 AM)
PhysOrg scientific forums are totally dedicated to science, physics, and technology. Besides topical forums such as nanotechnology, quantum physics, silicon and III-V technology, applied physics, materials, space and others, you can also join our news and publications discussions. We also provide an off-topic forum category. If you need specific help on a scientific problem or have a question related to physics or technology, visit the PhysOrg Forums. Here you’ll find experts from various fields online every day.
To quit out of "lo-fi" mode and return to the regular forums, please click here.

