To add comments or start new threads please go to the full version of: 3d Pixel Universe
PhysForum Science, Physics and Technology Discussion Forums > General Sci-Tech Discussions > Puzzling questions

bukh
hej friends

First I decided to put this in the "May Day thread" - but changed my mind.

Moderation is fine as long as it concerns trivial issues like porn, spam, commercials, insults and tracking threads in an off topic way - (unfortunately there have been no sign of moderation concerning insults)

Moderation concerning so called quality of scientific content is much more delicate - (unfortunately there have been sign on such kind of moderation)

It is debatable whether science shall be defined so narrow that it is not allowed to discuss issues that cannot be measured in a physical sense and so narrow that it is not allowed to discus issues that is not part of mainstream.

Now that we are in the Speculation Part allow me to come up with this:

Physical per definition is limited to a certain scale - to a scale that can be interfered with by human physical senses, being in the range of about electron - or Planck - but still BIG when looked at with sub-quantum eyes

I think that we are in a process of paradigm shift towards a broader understanding of physical world, where "ether/medium" is becoming an important part, and to an understanding that information is perhaps one of the key tools to get a better idea of physical, and that it is not possible to construct a physical meaningful picture out from dimensionless points - and that infinity is a very delicate and often misused concept that perhaps cannot be incorporated into a physical context, just like singularity is a physical mis-fit.

The ancient Greek paradoxes of "Achilles and the tortoise" and "Zeno's arrow" are still puzzling and relevant.

That Achilles will not be able to overtake the tortoise is logic - because Achilles is never given the needed "amount" of time to overtake - Achilles is restricted in time - but more important is that Achilles will never REACH the tortoise - because time is quantic - physical is quantic - physical is DISCRETE. We have had these discussions before and I hope that we will have them also in the future.

The other paradox of Zeno's arrow is puzzling because it tells us that nothing can be defined with finite accuracy. Nothing can be said to be into existence with finite accuracy - everything is an approximation. So when Zeno ask where the arrow is between two points - the best answer is that the arrow is NOT into existence at ANY point - the arrow will always exist as an approximation. We have to respect the concept of "Most similar" and that an object has no similar counterpart.

One can also say that super symmetry and dynamic is impossible - (universe would then be an oscillating unchanged existence in-situ) everything is about approximations. Numbers are approximations - and calculus is (among others) about how to define approximations. This is not saying that math is useless - of course not - all applied math and physics works as good as needed - but from a philosophical point of view it is interesting to deal with the concepts of accuracy and infinity and "most similar". 0.9--- is not the same as 1.

And from a philosophical point of view it is interesting to ponder about the ether - to ponder about what a particle is - and what or who is defining the particles - and who is perceiving - who/what is the observer - because on the bottom line it is about how part of universe perceive the surrounding universe - it is about how information observe information.

How can a part of information in a universe of complete entanglement - how can a part isolate itself from the surrounding, and make observations. And making an observation involve a kind of interference that change the next "step" - perhaps the mere act of observation is the symmetry breaking impetus. And in this context it is important to understand "observer" as broad as "any complexion" - human is just one out of infinitely many complexions in universe - is just one out of any and all of the observers - but from a human point of view of course a very important observer smile.gif

And it is interesting to ponder about the fundamental nature of energy - what is energy apart from something that can be measured and expressed in many physical ways - what is the underlying or better - what is the most fundamental form of energy - from where comes this ability to exert changes - why is it that spacetime cannot sit still.

I have suggested that physical world can be conceptualized out from "object of sameness" as our tool - serving as metric and as the fundamental defining - picturing and communicating tool, and that all physical can be seen as how objects of sameness arrange and re-arrange in space i flash-expressions - and how "universe only exists once". Object of sameness (irrespective of scale - size) contain all the needed information to outfold physical universe, the outfolding is via SHAPE as the organizing factor, everything can be seen as being outfolded via its fundamental shape - as the seeding information. Universe is fractal and holographic, and there is only one universe at a time. And I have suggested that it is not possible to define anything out from dimensionless - information less - shapeless points, and that it takes a 3D to define a 0D - 1D and 2D.

I have suggested that spacetime best can be understood as a nearly solid - with sufficient elasticity to secure delay - inertia - via its discreteness - (Navier Stokes existence and smoothness problem) and at the same time secure absolute accuracy in projections from one scale to another. So motion is an illusion, it is much better to see everything as "RE-ARRANGEMENTS". Our physical world is the scale equivalent to human physical senses - equivalent to the scale of about electron/photon - or slightly smaller - we will never be able to "touch" the true sub-quantum except by our mental power. Our physical world can be seen as the playing of a highly ordered 3D grid of pixels (and pixels are made of pixels and so on - so we are dealing with force-fields). Pixels do not "exist" - just like atoms do not exist.

One of natures well secured secrets is how nature on one hand can be dynamic and on the other hand be extremely accurate - and one way of looking at it is to see object of sameness as something that can be thought as small as needed - it is a simple act of scaling - and everything can be scaled into a point of disappearance, it is just a question about where the observer is placed relative to the observed. At the same time I feel it is necessary to introduce the concept of free void - that there must be something "in between" to separate one object of sameness from another. This is about the duality: that matter cannot exist without the parallel existence of free void. The relative balance between matter and free void is non-interesting.

Because spacetime can be thought scale wise - can be thought how objects of sameness arrange and configure in ever increasingly bigger and bigger stable repetitive patterns - it is possible to freely translate free void into relative vacuum, and I have suggested how such relative vacuum fluctuates over the Universe - and that relative vacuum is the "energy source". One can also say that universe strive for the most optimal "FIT" of objects of sameness - that universe in each and every scale constantly strive after the most optimal fit between objects of sameness - so as to get the most even distribution of free void all over universe. So as to get the most even or the smallest gradient of relative vacuum - so as to get the smallest gradient exerting change - and this is how entropy can be seen.

All main streamers of this Forum will probably get nauseated by reading the above - and I am confident that only a very few main streamers if any will get to these last lines - but I shall welcome any constructive comment - and I will try to explain to the best of my limited capacity, and I promise there will be no math involved.







AlexG
QUOTE
It is debatable whether science shall be defined so narrow that it is not allowed to discuss issues that cannot be measured in a physical sense


If it can't be measured in a physical sense, it isn't physics. If what you speculate on has no physical ramifications, it isn't science.
bukh
AlexG


QUOTE
If it can't be measured in a physical sense, it isn't physics. If what you speculate on has no physical ramifications, it isn't science.


What is meant by "physical ramifications"

Are you indicating that the only valid science is Physics ?

[Moderator: Suspended 7 days for specious comments.]
buttershug
QUOTE (bukh+May 19 2009, 10:42 PM)
hej friends

The ancient Greek paradoxes of "Achilles and the tortoise" and "Zeno's arrow" are still puzzling and relevant.

They are not puzzling to anyone whose understanding of math is more modern than a few hundred years ago.

It's puzzling to you because you won't consider certain concepts and reject them out of hand.
TobyNotToby
QUOTE (bukh+May 19 2009, 11:01 PM)
AlexG




What is meant by "physical ramifications"

Are you indicating that the only valid science is Physics ?

[Moderator: Suspended 7 days for specious comments.]

Have you just suspended this poster for saying what he said? Moderator, you have confirmed this place as the pits.
TheDoc
QUOTE (Lui+May 20 2009, 12:37 AM)
Have you just suspended this poster for saying what he said? Moderator, you have confirmed this place as the pits.

I thought you were leaving, Lui?
TobyNotToby
QUOTE (TheDoc+May 20 2009, 01:28 AM)
I thought you were leaving, Lui?

That just about sums it and you up theDoc, meaningless statements from kids that are all about getting one over somebody else. It's a university challenge. What's more, the internet has let us into the secret , that you're nasty little fellas after all. All this bullshit about genepools and survival of fittest. Really gone to your heads hasn't it? Only you don't seem to see your own crankiness. You are very good toddler comedians. You must carry on, I love it!
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (TobyNotToby+May 19 2009, 07:37 PM)
Have you just suspended this poster for saying what he said? Moderator, you have confirmed this place as the pits.

So leave, dumbass...
occidental
Well, in all fairness you did say this:
QUOTE (TobyNotToby+May 15 2009, 05:14 PM)
<insults snipped>...
I can only conclude that there is a definate lack of credibility here.

I think this forum is ill. Luckily I've been informed that it isn't actually linked to Physorg. Phew.

Bon humiliating. Won't be back.......hoooray.


and this..
QUOTE (TobyNotToby+May 15 2009, 11:48 PM)
Hi Raphie
Can I suggest you give up on this place? This place is dominated by psychic vampires. You are far better than these people that, the more they learn, the more stupid they seem to get.
<edit>

Groups like this are made up of scientists with manners.

Or else keep looking. I am convinced that the rudeness from the "learned" here is a bad role model. It encourages bad feelings, because when they are seen doing it then aspiring students will feel comfortable doing it too.


So I was also under the impression you were leaving.

But since youre still here, could you explain what you mean by this?:
QUOTE
All this bullshit about genepools and survival of fittest
TheDoc
QUOTE (Lui+)
That just about sums it and you up theDoc, meaningless statements from kids that are all about getting one over somebody else. It's a university challenge. What's more, the internet has let us into the secret , that you're nasty little fellas after all. All this bullshit about genepools and survival of fittest. Really gone to your heads hasn't it? Only you don't seem to see your own crankiness. You are very good toddler comedians. You must carry on, I love it!

I will take that as a resounding "No". Thank you. laugh.gif

EDIT: And I also must thank you for blowing up at me again, like you used to during the good old days. It brings a warm, fuzzy feeling to my heart. laugh.gif
TechnoViking
Is this the return of the boneheaded one?! TechnoViking does not approve!!!
mad.gif
TobyNotToby
You are cranks. Cut the garbage about being the good guys here. Protectionism and
bias is repulsive.

TheDoc
QUOTE (Lui+May 20 2009, 02:49 AM)
You are cranks. Cut the garbage about being the good guys here. Protectionism and
bias is repulsive.

You know, I really started giggling to myself when I saw your username under the 'Last Post Info' header. I have to admit that sometimes the utter insanity of your posts makes me giddy. smile.gif

By the way, you know that the suspension of your MickDerry account ends in July, right? Or were you just itching to get back in the ring, eager to stick it to the bully boys again? wink.gif
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (TobyNotToby+May 19 2009, 09:49 PM)
You are cranks. Cut the garbage about being the good guys here. Protectionism and
bias is repulsive.

You're an idiot.
Definition of Crank
QUOTE
A person full of crotchets; one given to fantastic or impracticable projects; one whose judgment is perverted in respect to a particular matter.

Wikipedia - Crank (person)
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
A person full of crotchets; one given to fantastic or impracticable projects; one whose judgment is perverted in respect to a particular matter.

Wikipedia - Crank (person)
"Crank" is a pejorative term for a person who holds a belief that a vast majority contemporaries consider false.[1] A "cranky" belief is so wildly at variance with commonly accepted truth as to be ludicrous, and arguing with cranks is useless, because they will invariably dismiss all evidence or arguments which contradict their unconventional beliefs.


You know, like the type of guy who uses numerology to try and prove the existence of some mystical spiritual construct called the merkaba, or claims there's some mystical relationship between certain numbers just because they represent the ratios used in musical scales.
Or like the type of guy who logs onto a forum he claims is "the pits" just to whine and complain about the people on that forum. The kind of guy who purposefully subjects himself to the same abuse he's consistently whining about.

EDIT: Hey Doc, why do you have Trippy's name in your trophy list? I see he gave you a neg, but it sure looks like he meant to give you a pos, and just slipped up...
TheDoc
QUOTE (MjolnirPants+May 20 2009, 03:39 AM)
EDIT: Hey Doc, why do you have Trippy's name in your trophy list? I see he gave you a neg, but it sure looks like he meant to give you a pos, and just slipped up...

Now rectified - thank you for reminding me. biggrin.gif
sporacle
I joined this forum because it is about physics and a relatively wide range of interrelated subjects including biology and religion. It appears that a major function is education, where questions can be asked and answered with good information. It is a wonderful resource for mathematics and scientific method and the current understanding of physical reality and the ways the frontiers are being explored.

This forum also appears to function as a place where other different ideas can be discussed and explored. Obviously these often may seem strange, but it is useful to try to understand what is being said, and explore where these ideas may by congruent in some ways with data and with other ideas, both old and new. In the assembly of a puzzle, you never know whether the pieces may fit unless you consider them.

A case in point is bukh’s stuff. For months I have wondered about his “objects of sameness”. The data we have is individual events from our own biological transducers and the technological ones we have constructed. We mentally model patterns of events and make models of reality, and using symbols (mathematics/language) we can manipulate and share our models of how the patterns of events take place. My hunch is what bukh is trying to point out is the consistency of specific patterns of events (“objects of sameness”) on all scales. My personal thought is that today we tend to assume the specific patterns of events of the very large and the very small are separate loci of activity, and the current attempts to assemble “TOEs” don’t work. I think bukh’s thought about “objects of sameness” on all scales is worth considering.

I was intrigued by bukh’s title of this thread, “3D Pixel Universe, welcome back ether” I don’t agree with his details, but the 3D and ether part fits my thoughts. An ether of relatively static individual monads was falsified a century ago, but consideration of a process ether of something outside the range of our current transducers so far (maybe infinitely fast and infinitely small) with local 3D interaction everywhere has not been explored.

But remember, guys, anything anybody ever says about anything is an opinion. Our mental models are all part of scientific exploration. But no model, however pretty or backed by authority, is the same thing as the physical reality it represents.

Everything in our experience takes place in 3D including the operation of all of our transducers. The models we construct of what is going on out there using data from our transducers of patterns of photons arriving on our planet, including all the computer simulations, are speculation. Subjunctive.

A lot of stuff here is in the SUBJUNCTIVE. Guys, go look up what that means. If you google it, most of what you’ll find is lots about which verbs to use for the concept of “what if” and similar concepts. Way back in Latin the Romans used it lots because they knew there were lots of “what if”s. Hypothetical. The proper verb forms usually don’t get used properly nowadays because people tend to think either it is or it is not. Maybe life is now complex and scary and we want things nailed down and not maybe.

Exploring is betting time and resources on looking for what you think may be, and in true exploring you do not know whether you will find anything. It requires as much information as you can gather and as much courage as you can muster.

Anyone taking part in the discussions here (we're all human) can sometimes slide into just trashing the other person, no thoughtful analysis of what was said, and ignoring the accepted format of discussion. It just makes a mess. Try not to do that. Intense arguments using your thoughts and good information are great and a normal, helpful part of the process.

The moderator (thanks, rpenner) has the formidable task of setting the limits so it doesn’t get too messy and decent discussion continues.

Unfortunately, like many internet forums, this one has the typical significant proportion of turd posts. It's obvious the moderator often has to wade through a really smelly pile of flaming childish arrogance that has nothing to do with science, like the last dozen or so posts on this thread.

Sorry about the long rant, but I do think we have a good thing going here in spite of the juvenile crap.
TobyNotToby
I share some of those views, but not the views about this forum's tolerance all round. One would find it hard for rational people to consider this forum run in a rational way, and for those that profess rationality to actually being that.

A real forum where threads don't get trashed and people don't get intimidated is the SSE forum. Anyone can join, but only members of the SSE can post. The majority of posters are scientists, willing to discuss subjects that may be considered on the cutting edge. It's amazing how a thread becomes a joy to read and learn from. Ideas are given a chance to evolve. There isn't the arrogant attitude that pervades this place, which is instigated by a very few select scientists who should know better, and for those that merely wish to support and cheerlead those scientists. There is a flexing of egos , and strange competitions , and wrong decisions about how to improve the place.

buttershug
QUOTE (sporacle+May 20 2009, 07:10 AM)
A case in point is bukh’s stuff. For months I have wondered about his “objects of sameness”.

As far as I can tell he is talking about the basic building blocks of exsistence.

It seems he can't think abstractly then says the people that can are the ones with the problem.

If someone says that a line is the locus of points between two points.
He thinks of them as lego blocks and can't understand how dimenionless points can build up to a line. They can't but that's not what modern mathematicians are really saying.
buttershug
QUOTE (TobyNotToby+May 20 2009, 11:19 AM)
I share some of those views, but not the views about this forum's tolerance all round. One would find it hard for rational people to consider this forum run in a rational way, and for those that profess rationality to actually being that.

A real forum where threads don't get trashed and people don't get intimidated is the SSE forum. Anyone can join, but only members of the SSE can post. The majority of posters are scientists, willing to discuss subjects that may be considered on the cutting edge. It's amazing how a thread becomes a joy to read and learn from. Ideas are given a chance to evolve. There isn't the arrogant attitude that pervades this place, which is instigated by a very few select scientists who should know better, and for those that merely wish to support and cheerlead those scientists. There is a flexing of egos , and strange competitions , and wrong decisions about how to improve the place.

the seed savers exchange forum?

On the SSE forum is unadulterated non-sense tolerated?
On another forum there was a thread about a guy claiming to burn water. He had been looking for a cancer cure but had found how to use radio waves to burn water.
He had video and everything. My reaction was buy the fool a microwave oven. It was obvious he was splitting the oxygen and hydrogen and burning the hydrogen. Someone even pointed out the flame was the right colour.

You are doing someone a service by letting them continue to believe garbage.
TobyNotToby
QUOTE (buttershug+May 20 2009, 12:00 PM)
the seed savers exchange forum?

Society for Scientific Exploration (SSE) group at Yahoo.


*************************************

Description
This is the eGroup for members of the Society for Scientific Exploration (SSE) (http: //www. scientificexploration. org/).

The SSE provides a critical forum of rationality and observational evidence for the often strange claims at the fringes of science.

The primary goal of the international SSE is to provide a professional forum for presentations, criticism, and debate concerning topics which are for various reasons ignored or studied inadequately within mainstream science. A secondary goal is to promote improved understanding of those factors that unnecessarily limit the scope of scientific inquiry, such as sociological constraints, restrictive world views, hidden theoretical assumptions, and the temptation to convert prevailing theory into prevailing dogma.

The SSE encourages scholarly discussion of anomalies in mainstream science such as consciousness, placebo effects, free energy, evolution, psychic research, anomalous aerial phenomenon, cryptozoology, apparitions, etc.

New SSE members will be asked for their interest preferences.

While the public is welcome to join, only members of the SSE will be able to post or participate in SSE activities.

Rules for this eGroup:
1. No spam
2. We are based on openness and acceptance of others, even if we disagree
3. Open-minded skepticism is encouraged.
4. Civility is the rule
5. No cross-posting. (Cross-posting is sending posts to more than one group at a time).

http ://tech. groups. yahoo. com/group/SSE/

***************************************************

MjolnirPants
QUOTE (TobyNotToby+May 20 2009, 07:38 AM)
Society for Scientific Exploration (SSE) group at Yahoo.

"The JSE (Journal of Scientific Exploration, a periodical published by this society), while presented as neutral and objective, appears to hold a hidden agenda. They seem to be interested in promoting fringe topics as real mysteries and they tend to ignore most evidence to the contrary. They publish 'scholarly' articles promoting the reality of dowsing, neo-astrology, ESP, and psychokinesis. Most of the prominent and active members are strong believers in the reality of such phenomena. I have no objections to the scientific panel that reviewed the UFO testimony for the study. But the eight people who provided the testimony and evidence are all strong UFO proponents and believers. They have been promoting the UFO cause for decades. There are no skeptical researchers among them. This is very curious if one is to contend this is some kind of balanced assessment." - Kendrick Frazier, editor of Skeptical Enquirer.
Blue text is mine.

And let's look at one of the 'scientists' who happens to be the editor of their journal..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Bauer
QUOTE
Bauer says he left the Dean’s office at Virginia Tech "when political correctness arrived" in the 1980s.[2] Bauer joined the anti-affirmative action conservative group called the National Association of Scholars, starting a newsletter for the group's Virginia branch.[10][11] In "The Virginia Scholar," Bauer blames what he views as a decline in academic standards on the implementation of diversity programs, which he characterizes as promoting "feminoid sexists calling men sexist" and "racist black fanatics calling others racist."

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Bauer says he left the Dean’s office at Virginia Tech "when political correctness arrived" in the 1980s.[2] Bauer joined the anti-affirmative action conservative group called the National Association of Scholars, starting a newsletter for the group's Virginia branch.[10][11] In "The Virginia Scholar," Bauer blames what he views as a decline in academic standards on the implementation of diversity programs, which he characterizes as promoting "feminoid sexists calling men sexist" and "racist black fanatics calling others racist."

Bauer also drew criticism for his denunciation of homosexuality.[14] In his pseudonymously-written memoir, To Rise Above Principle: The Memoirs of an Unreconstructed Dean, Bauer writes, "I regard homosexuality as an aberration or illness, not as an ‘equally valid life-style’ or whatever the current euphemism is."

QUOTE
Bauer became a proponent of AIDS denialism several years after retiring from Virginia Tech.[17] He has asserted that there are "substantive grounds for doubting that HIV is the necessary and sufficient cause of AIDS and that antiretroviral treatment is unambiguously beneficial."[18]

In his 2007 book, The Origins, Persistence, and Failings of HIV/AIDS Theory,[19] Bauer questions whether HIV exists, claiming that HIV tests are not accurate and that AIDS death statistics are faked by a conspiracy of the media, scientists and pharmaceutical companies. Bauer claims that African Americans are more sexually promiscuous and use more illegal drugs than other groups, but says sex and drug use are not involved in AIDS since, according to him, Native Americans are also sexually promiscuous and have high drug use but do not often test positive for HIV (p.64). Bauer hypothesises that African Americans are more likely to test HIV-positive because of supposed genetic mutations.[19] As is the case for AIDS denialism in general, Bauer’s notions on HIV/AIDS and race are rejected by the mainstream scientific community, based upon decades of research and overhelming scientific consensus that HIV exists, is infectious, causes AIDS, and that HIV tests are accurate.[20][21]


Yeah... The SSE is a really special group, alright. A highly biased, highly controversial group whose publication is edited by a chauvinistic, racist, homophobic AIDS denier.

laugh.gif laugh.gif
TobyNotToby
QUOTE (MjolnirPants+May 20 2009, 04:25 PM)
"The JSE (Journal of Scientific Exploration, a periodical published by this society), while presented as neutral and objective, appears to hold a hidden agenda. They seem to be interested in promoting fringe topics as real mysteries and they tend to ignore most evidence to the contrary. They publish 'scholarly' articles promoting the reality of dowsing, neo-astrology, ESP, and psychokinesis. Most of the prominent and active members are strong believers in the reality of such phenomena. I have no objections to the scientific panel that reviewed the UFO testimony for the study. But the eight people who provided the testimony and evidence are all strong UFO proponents and believers. They have been promoting the UFO cause for decades. There are no skeptical researchers among them. This is very curious if one is to contend this is some kind of balanced assessment." - Kendrick Frazier, editor of Skeptical Enquirer.
Blue text is mine.

And let's look at one of the 'scientists' who happens to be the editor of their journal..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Bauer




Yeah... The SSE is a really special group, alright. A highly biased, highly controversial group whose publication is edited by a chauvinistic, racist, homophobic AIDS denier.

laugh.gif laugh.gif

Rubbish. It's a very well mannered group, with a very high standard of writing. I'm not interested in what one of the guys believes. I'm interested in a lot of the subjects that are discussed cordially, and not on that list of yours. Proper scientists giving their trade a very good name. As for highly biased, pot meet physkettle.

Science is filled with people that don't always believe great things. You probably worship many of them.
occidental
Looks like Lui picked another winner.
TobyNotToby
QUOTE (occidental+May 20 2009, 04:48 PM)
Looks like Lui picked another winner.

You get no energy for that.
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (TobyNotToby+May 20 2009, 11:47 AM)
Rubbish.

Rubbish? Really?
http://www.csicop.org/articles/sse-ufo-report/
http://failingsofhivaidstheory.homestead.com/
http://www.aidstruth.org/GL-times-article.pdf

Rubbish backed up by reputable sources, liar.

QUOTE
It's a very well mannered group, with a very high standard of writing.

ROFLMAO I'm not even going to argue with that inane suggestion.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
It's a very well mannered group, with a very high standard of writing.

ROFLMAO I'm not even going to argue with that inane suggestion.

I'm not interested in what one of the guys believes.

Sure you are. Otherwise, why would you sing their praises so much?

QUOTE
I'm interested in a lot of the subjects that are discussed cordially, and not on that list of yours.

What list? I never gave or linked to any list.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
I'm interested in a lot of the subjects that are discussed cordially, and not on that list of yours.

What list? I never gave or linked to any list.

Proper scientists giving their trade a very good name.

Yeah. Because we all know that writing articles bashing gays, blacks, women and mainstream science really makes a good name for oneself. laugh.gif

QUOTE
As for highly biased, pot meet physkettle.

I merely repeated what a prominent and extremely well-respected skeptic said, dumbass. I'd love to see you try to prove any sort of relevant bias on my part, however.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
As for highly biased, pot meet physkettle.

I merely repeated what a prominent and extremely well-respected skeptic said, dumbass. I'd love to see you try to prove any sort of relevant bias on my part, however.

Science is filled with people that don't always believe great things. You probably worship many of them.

So it's okay for you to 'worship' a racist, sexist, homophobic AIDS denier, but it's not okay for me to 'worship' well-respected, nobel-prize-winning scientists? laugh.gif
TobyNotToby
QUOTE (MjolnirPants+May 20 2009, 06:25 PM)
Rubbish? Really?
http://www.csicop.org/articles/sse-ufo-report/
http://failingsofhivaidstheory.homestead.com/
http://www.aidstruth.org/GL-times-article.pdf

Rubbish backed up by reputable sources, liar.


ROFLMAO I'm not even going to argue with that inane suggestion.


Sure you are. Otherwise, why would you sing their praises so much?


What list? I never gave or linked to any list.


Yeah. Because we all know that writing articles bashing gays, blacks, women and mainstream science really makes a good name for oneself. laugh.gif


I merely repeated what a prominent and extremely well-respected skeptic said, dumbass. I'd love to see you try to prove any sort of relevant bias on my part, however.


So it's okay for you to 'worship' a racist, sexist, homophobic AIDS denier, but it's not okay for me to 'worship' well-respected, nobel-prize-winning scientists? laugh.gif

I've joined, you haven't. You have not read the posts there and are not in a position to judge the quality of the forum. Join first, then comment.

No one to my knowledge at the forum has bashed mainstream science.

You would be surprised how many leading scientists have views you'd find totally disagreeble.

The thing is there are plenty of scientists who have the same qualifications, that are prepared to think on the fringes. From some of the posts I've read at SSE it's quite clear that there are elements of mainstream that are merely grant seeking dogmatic palava, which suppress certain avenues of thought. But on the whole I am actually a keen supporter of mainstream, and those that don't use it as an excuse to bash others with. What I don't support is your type of charachter , in any walk of life. You pretend to be honest with knowledge, but I know you are not when it suits you. I have no desire to go off and prove my statement, because I already know you know when you are being dishonest. Unless I need to be lenient here due to your immaturity.
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (TobyNotToby+May 20 2009, 01:58 PM)
But on the whole I am actually a keen supporter of mainstream

Quoth the man who once expressed admiration for those who claim that science is evil.
The same man who writes books on numerology and doesn't know the quadratic formula from a hole in the ground.


QUOTE
What I don't support is your type of charachter , in any walk of life.

What about the type of character who twist others words in order to criticize them? What about the type of character who is continually banned from a forum for disruptive and abusive behavior, and who continually returns, lying about his identity in order to engage in the same behavior over and over again? What about the type of character who insults people, then judges them for insulting others? What about the type of character who harps on and on about a perceived mistake someone else made, all the while downplaying the numerous mistakes he himself has made in the same exact subject? What about the type of character who makes baseless accusations, fails to support them with any evidence whatsoever, then uses those accusations to support further accusations? What about the type of person who continually defends those who have been proven to be idiots from being called idiots, yet doesn't think twice about calling skeptics and students of mainstream science 'cranks'? What about the type of character who insults anyone who dares disagree with him, all the while criticizing that same person for insulting anyone who dares disagree with him, without any basis in fact?
You don't have a problem with those types of characters, but you do have a problem with a guy who says what's on his mind.
There's something seriously wrong with you.
buttershug
QUOTE (TobyNotToby+May 20 2009, 12:38 PM)
2. We are based on openness and acceptance of others, even if we disagree

This is only good to a point.
When people go against evidence then I believe it is ok to say so.

And when people make idiotic statements they are idiotic statements even if someone said them and believe them.
sporacle
Maybe this should be a different thread about the conduct of forums.

In formal professional scientific forums, papers about data, hypotheses or both are peer reviewed and vetted before presentation at a meeting or in print or both. It tends to minimize angry shouting.

Any internet forum open to anyone will invariably include lots of BS of all types. But ordinary civility is possible, reduces irrelevant stuff in threads and makes everything more pleasant. A behavior modification strategy (thoroughly nailed down by a mountain of studies and data) can be useful. Behaviors not reinforced by any response will disappear (doesn’t matter what the behavior is or if response is positive or negative).

Decades ago an old cattle rancher I met stated a nice metaphor for it. “If you run into BS, just ignore it. Don’t mess with it, step around it and go on. It always gets washed away anyway.”
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (sporacle+May 20 2009, 07:45 PM)
Maybe this should be a different thread about the conduct of forums.


Absolutely. But that's never stopped Liu from derailing a thread. (His name is actually Lui, but I call him Liu because, like him, it looks right at first, but a closer inspection reveals that it's bass-ackwards.)

QUOTE
In formal professional scientific forums, papers about data, hypotheses or both are peer reviewed and vetted before presentation at a meeting or in print or both.  It tends to minimize angry shouting.

Any internet forum open to anyone will invariably include lots of BS of all types.  But ordinary civility is possible, reduces irrelevant stuff in threads and makes everything more pleasant.

I actually don't have a problem with Bukh. He knows his speculations are just that, he's engaged in self-depreciating humor before (which always gets a plus in my book), knows the difference between speculation and bizarre wackiness, and accepts that he's not likely to contribute to mainstream science. In fact, I prefer him to some of the defenders of mainstream here.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
In formal professional scientific forums, papers about data, hypotheses or both are peer reviewed and vetted before presentation at a meeting or in print or both.  It tends to minimize angry shouting.

Any internet forum open to anyone will invariably include lots of BS of all types.  But ordinary civility is possible, reduces irrelevant stuff in threads and makes everything more pleasant.

I actually don't have a problem with Bukh. He knows his speculations are just that, he's engaged in self-depreciating humor before (which always gets a plus in my book), knows the difference between speculation and bizarre wackiness, and accepts that he's not likely to contribute to mainstream science. In fact, I prefer him to some of the defenders of mainstream here.

A behavior modification strategy (thoroughly nailed down by a mountain of studies and data) can be useful.  Behaviors not reinforced by any response will disappear (doesn’t matter what the behavior is or if response is positive or negative).

Decades ago an old cattle rancher I met stated a nice metaphor for it.  “If you run into BS, just ignore it.  Don’t mess with it, step around it and go on.  It always gets washed away anyway.”

The problem is that this forum is popular. Lot's of new threads pop up each week where a newcomer asks a question about physics. The cranks here tend to jump on them, relishing any opportunity to push their pet theories off on someone else, and completely ignorant to the possible harm they could do to such a person's test scores, not to mention the damage it does to their integrity anytime a person who knows a thing or two about the subject engages them in conversation after they've bought some cranks theories.

I'm at my most offensive when I'm insulting and criticizing these cranks in the homework help section. Outside of that, I generally just amuse myself at the expense of people who don't have enough integrity to learn about the subject they want to write about.
gmilam
QUOTE (MjolnirPants+May 20 2009, 07:53 PM)
The cranks here tend to jump on them, relishing any opportunity to push their pet theories off on someone else

BINGO!

Whenever I used this place to try and get a handle on Quantum theories... I couldn't tell the science from the BS. And this place is crawling with BS!

Luckily I've got a fairly good baloney detector.

I've had to go other places to learn what's real, what's metaphysical mumbo jumbo and what's just plain wrong.
sporacle
QUOTE (MjolnirPants+May 21 2009, 12:53 AM)













The problem is that this forum is popular. Lot's of new threads pop up each week where a newcomer asks a question about physics. The cranks here tend to jump on them, relishing any opportunity to push their pet theories off on someone else, and completely ignorant to the possible harm they could do to such a person's test scores, not to mention the damage it does to their integrity anytime a person who knows a thing or two about the subject engages them in conversation after they've bought some cranks theories

Thanks so much

Any open forum will have a proportion of crankism, but this one is obviously serious about the search for understanding, and students looking for good information may be adversely led off the path of learning by crank stuff. Part of the definition of cranks is their intention of pushing their fractured porcelain anywhere regardless of the huge body of accepted knowledge to the contrary. Obviously it is necessary to shoot them out of the saddle before they cause trouble for students.

A crucial aspect of learning about scientific method is how to identify and discriminate any old or new pretty ideas from well accepted understanding and how to determine whether they are worth exploring further. Most people in the US know diddly about scientific method, and goofy ideas are often given equal time in public debates with accepted current understanding.

An essential factor in assessment of a new model is interrelatedness with all available data and also with current models that are well accepted. Crackpot stuff usually interrelates data from a narrow selected context and is usually self-referencing and doesn’t fit with anything else.

Perhaps a way to streamline discussions is making distinct categories of 1. Current data and well accepted models and 2. Hypotheses about other possibilities. (It’s an old way. It used to be subjunctive verbs denoted anything that was essentially “what if”, and other verb tenses denoted what was, what is, and what is a safe bet for what will be.) Anyone posting non standard stuff in the first category should be promptly excluded. Any posts about new hypotheses in the second category must run the gauntlet of challenges from anyone and respond with explanations (and not just because somebody else said so). Flaming should be unnecessary.

Whatever, this is a nice place to search for understanding.
Raphie Frank
QUOTE (sporacle+May 21 2009, 05:26 AM)
Perhaps a way to streamline discussions is making distinct categories of 1. Current data and well accepted models and 2. Hypotheses about other possibilities.

Dear sporacle,

You raise an interesting point and offer a constructive alternative to "bliss by Scarlett-A-ish ostracization." Unfortunately, the alternative you propose has already fallen upon less than receptive ears. I proposed a similar, albeit not final, "solution" a while back upon the feedback thread for RPenner (see below).

=============================================================
I need not agree with every choice that is made to wholeheartedly agree with the simple fact that choices are being made. This is clear and the forum is far the better for it. Thank you.

A quick suggestion:
How about some kind of "What if" area of the forum? For those who have "weird," "wild" and "wacky" ideas and recognze them as questionable, and thus would not desire to present them as "New Theories," but believe in them enough that they would also not wish to label their ideas as "Sci-Fi?"

Just a thought.

Best,
Raphie
=============================================================

Strictly speaking, and without any intended moral overtones (okay, well, yes, with moral overtones..), eliminating the opposition, while perhaps lacking in nuance, is far more efficient.

Best,
Raphie
Raphie Frank
QUOTE (gmilam+May 21 2009, 03:48 AM)
Whenever I used this place to try and get a handle on Quantum theories... I couldn't tell the science from the BS. And this place is crawling with BS!

A very fair statement. Exactly why it would be useful to have a "third way." Established knowledge, however fragile and stolid it may prove over the longer term, should be able to shine through the clutter without need for "BS detectors."

All the same, new ideas and fresh approaches ought not to be the casualty of the above.

============================================================
"All censorships exist to prevent anyone from challenging current conceptions and existing institutions. All progress is initiated by challenging current conceptions, and executed by supplanting existing institutions. Consequently, the first condition of progress is the removal of censorship."
-- George Bernard Shaw

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw
============================================================

Best,
Raphie
bukh

From Wiki:

"Shaw wanted to refuse his Nobel Prize outright because he had no desire for public honors, but accepted it at his wife's behest: she considered it a tribute to Ireland. He did reject the monetary award, requesting it be used to finance translation of Swedish books to English."

What a man - greatness -

Yes - I favor the proposals of sporacle and Raphie Frank - this Forum would benefit from having a special section dealing with "what if" -

With such a special section there would be no risk of seducing youngsters with false physics - everyone would clearly know that this is not accepted physics - this is not according to main stream - a section that everyone can look at or jump over - a section that everyone can comment on or leave in the dark.

It would ease the life for our moderator as well - because there would be no need for scrutinizing the content in that special section - and of course at the same time it would be easy to punish hard if someone dared to come up with speculations in the scientific threads.
rpenner
But maybe best if proponents of such ground-breaking ideas not bring them here at all.

Indeed, many of them either spam them across the whole of the Internet or put the time and resources into creating a website for them. So since they are for the most part incapable of engaging in our target audience (which would, I assume, ask the question "What good is this theory and how is it better than what's in current textbooks?") I don't know that any new sub-forum here would be useful.

As for people with patentable ideas, bringing them here will hurt their case to get them patented. As for people with copyrightable text, bringing them here will hurt their case to get paid or control their work. As for people with scientific articles, we have no image capability and no equation capability, and pretty poor ability to create tables, so any such science would be nearly devoid of data, math or comparisons -- so we would certainly not be the first place serious scientists would think of.

In fact we do have such a "free ideas" sub-forum long since established here. It has had special moderators on it for much longer than my role, just to keep the science-minded out of the discussions. As such, over many years it has gone nowhere.

As one of my roles is to keep profanity and advertising down, I fully expect any such forum to either be moderated (by myself, by anti-science cranks, or by a neutral party with guidelines to only remove advertisements) or to be overrun.

But that's just my opinion. (i.e. not that of Management.)
bukh
rpenner

Let me assure - this is strictly constructively meant - and put in order to clarify the situation and remedy misunderstandings if any.

"In fact we do have such a "free ideas" sub-forum long since established here. It has had special moderators on it for much longer than my role, just to keep the science-minded out of the discussions. As such, over many years it has gone nowhere."

Do we still have such a "free ideas" sub-forum, and if yes - which specific sub-forum are you indicating.

"As one of my roles is to keep profanity and advertising down, I fully expect any such forum to either be moderated (by myself, by anti-science cranks, or by a neutral party with guidelines to only remove advertisements) or to be overrun."

Do you foresee problems with a kind of moderation for such a "free ideas" sub-forum specifically directed towards spam, porn, advertisements -


rpenner
Bukh, you are familiar with http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showforum=25 which is the sub-forum to which I refer.

It has long been moderated by RealityCheck and Tor
Raphie Frank
QUOTE (rpenner+Jun 7 2009, 07:34 PM)
In fact we do have such a "free ideas" sub-forum long since established here.

Might I suggest that this area of the forum allow for the establishing of new threads that are not necessarily in keeping with the agenda of the "special moderators"?

Trying to be constructive here...

Best,
Raphie
rpenner
Again, I don't think people can share scientific discovery without exchange of data and analysis. If Management (who I do not represent) wishes to follow in the footsteps of the previous decision to protect RealityCheck's and Tor's sub-forum, then I think the failure of the previous forum to produce a communicable reality-based idea should constrain ideas for future forums.

1) What are the criteria for knowing if a post in the proposed new forum is on topic or not?
2) What is the goal of the forum?
3) Why can't that goal be addressed in the existing forums?

For our verbose posters who were willing to confine their proclamations to a single thread, we've been able to co-exist with them fine. But if you are proposing a viable forum, then such posters are probably going to be forced to interact with the same types of questions that they would encounter on other forums. So if I were to bring such a proposal forward (which I do not at this stage plan to do) I would want to understand what the goal is and why that goal is deserving of such special protection.

Freedom of speech (which you do not have on a forum you don't own) is never freedom from criticism. And scientific ideas are never free of the tyranny of the universe.

"Knowledge is power; Nature to be controlled must be obeyed." - Bacon, 1620
rpenner
If I were to have a sub-forum with alternate rules, it would be Science Court, where issues of science and fact would be "tried" in some sort of formal, moderated debate.

But I don't see that a sub-forum devoted to ideas self-described as "weird," "wild", "wacky", "false physics" or what-not can succeed. On sciforums.com, the Cesspool is where threads wind up in, not where they originate from. This is because people who wish to share wacky thoughts with others are among the least well-qualified to judge if their own ideas are wacky or not.

But if the goal is not to air potentially false physics before people who might confuse those thoughts for real physics, wouldn't not posting at all solve that problem at least as well. Perhaps I still do not know what the intended goal of the proposed sub-forum is.
bukh
"For our verbose posters who were willing to confine their proclamations to a single thread, we've been able to co-exist with them fine."

To me it would be a great and much appreciated offer to have ONE specific thread dealing with the "What if"


"1) What are the criteria for knowing if a post in the proposed new forum is on topic or not?"

By the very nature of the content in such a thread there exist no criteria for knowing whether it is on - or off topic. Time will tell.

The sole criteria for something to be viable in such a thread is up to the respective participants to decide. If a poster cannot arise interest and create inspiration, the topic in question will die. Many good discussions (personal view of course) is flick flaking and constantly changing direction, and provided a certain discipline among the posters there will probably be a kind of core around which the discussions will take place.

2) What is the goal of the forum?

To create a free room for those who like to express themselves preferably in non-scientific terms, to allow for maximum creativity and outofthebox thinking.

Such a thread will not be a threat to science - everyone know that what is being discussed is not according to any formalities - not in accordance with anything established - not something that can be build anything upon -

However - in the unlikely event that something comes out of this kind of discussion / rambling - there are no losers - only winners -

And I think that many of the established and valuable knowledgeable members of this Forum at time to time would like to have a peep into such a thread - and I foresee that many of the ordinary members will feel inspired to come up with comments and perhaps even suggestions. I may even stretch it saying that some of the established members will miss it, if they had not such an opportunity.

3) Why can't that goal be addressed in the existing forums?

Because it is simply not possible to execute any kind of moderation directed towards whether outofthebox thinking is relevant/irrelevant - on/off topic - irrespective how good the moderator may be - it is a mission impossible.

Historic evidence has shown this again and again, and many wise persons have over the history advocated against censorship - and I think that this Forum deserves to have at least one non-moderated thread.

What I am saying is meant positively and wholehearted - we can all be proud of this Forum - and we are all responsible to protect the best and fight against the worse - and we need a knowledgeable and wise moderator like we have - and I am not only happy but also a bit surprised about the positive attitude that our moderator has revealed in this discussion.

Obviously for such a "what if" thread to be viable - there must be a firm moderation to protect the thread from porn, advertisement, spam, and then everyone can hope for a decent and civilized tone - and that such a thread will not be inhabited by too many examples of plain belittling and insulting comments without any constructive content.





Confused2
What is the goal of the forum?

Ultimately the answer lies with the person/people paying for the server/bandwidth. To my knowledge at least one 'admin' remains from before the separation from Physorg. During the course of the last three+ years I have had three exchanges of PMs with 'admin' and I think I can claim that my suggestions been greeted with enthusiasm on every occasion. The theme of my suggestions has been to promote physics - that is to say - to make physics as interesting and accessible (to all) as possible.
Raphie Frank
I don't have time to actively participate in this thread at the moment, but would like to simply note that from a brief scan, it seems to me that there is actually constructive dialogue going on here. I would be very pleased to see some manner of translation from constructive to construction.

The ball, frankly, is in RPenner's court...

Best,
Raphie
sporacle
For thousands of years the forums where ideas have been exchanged have always been messy. They have included the inevitable blend of standard stuff, goofy thinking, salesmen, grandstanders, people who want to argue, and the occasional new idea. All along everybody has had to do the sorting themselves.

Obviously the spammers, advertisers and other pushers must be excluded. Most people here are serious in the search for understanding, and moderators are crucial.

As Ralphie Frank, bukh and I (and probably lots of others) have suggested, maybe a more distinct forum separation of the standard information category from anything in the “what if” category might help.

Rpenner has given us his thoughts from experience on this forum. His points should be well taken.

The “free ideas” sub forum moderated by RealityCheck and Tor are a great idea and look good. However, a thought is that most people doing a serious physics and related topic search may be likely to get into reading after one to three clicks on the headings and go to bed before looking further. They may miss the “what if” distinction denoting the sub forum. Maybe this distinction could be further up on the click decision tree. Maybe it would make a difference or maybe not.

Maybe trying to categorize information is just an academic exercise, and any open exchange of data and ideas will always be messy. Maybe it’s not rules but the collective personal attitudes of everyone participating. Maybe it’s a test of each of us saying what we really think (no BS) and real debate toward the goal of more shared understanding of reality. And we all have to do the sorting of information anyway.

It is a safe bet that any forum will have a small proportion of out of context profanity and out of context scripture.

This forum is wonderful, especially for getting a some feedback on challenges while trying to assemble an article for publication.
bukh
rpenner

Have You come any closer in making up your mind whether a "what if" thread should be granted the Forum ?
buttershug
I think there would have be an explaination on how "what if" works.
Do you want a rigorous "what if"?
Or one where words are useless because they are defined on the fly?
Would people be able to selfcontradict themselves as StevenA did, wanting to talk about subjects dealing with infinity but saying infinity does not exist?

And to be blunt I don't think you ever did understand that "the map is not the territory".
Raphie Frank
Posted to the thread:
========================================
Special Project: 'Complete' Cosmology Theory From Scratch
========================================

TEST: Can New Topics Be Started Here?

QUOTE (Raphie Frank+Jun 17 2009, 03:45 AM)
I would like to begin a thread within this section related to possible deep connections between Prime Numbers/Mersenne Primes and Kissing Numbers.

May I have the permission of the special moderators to begin such a thread?

This request is in response to statements by, moderator, Rpenner, that there is already an alternative sub-forum upon this forum for more "alternative imaginings."

I do not believe this to be the case, but with your cooperation, perhaps we can get one going.

Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

Kindest Regards,
Raphie Frank
MjolnirPants
QUOTE (buttershug+Jun 13 2009, 09:22 AM)
I think there would have be an explaination on how "what if" works.

Hey, I wouldn't mind a place to put my "what if superman was a bad guy?" or "what if Richard Dean Anderson hadn't left Stargate: SG-1?" musings...

But I suppose that's a little too 'science fiction' and too little 'science' for this forum...
hint hint...
PhysOrg scientific forums are totally dedicated to science, physics, and technology. Besides topical forums such as nanotechnology, quantum physics, silicon and III-V technology, applied physics, materials, space and others, you can also join our news and publications discussions. We also provide an off-topic forum category. If you need specific help on a scientific problem or have a question related to physics or technology, visit the PhysOrg Forums. Here you’ll find experts from various fields online every day.
To quit out of "lo-fi" mode and return to the regular forums, please click here.