http://www.physorg.com/news107180850.html
Yeah, and what else might correlate with living near power lines? Rural or urban settings? If its more likely rural, then the cancer might be related to agricultural chemicals. If its urban, the cancer might be related to less natural foods. Or how about probability of living near a power line, family income, public water, and/or diet?
Speaking of statistics, my estimate is that about 30% of all published statistically-based scientific conclusions are non sequitur.
What about Suburban areas?
How about electric blankets? Much lower field strength but much closer proximity..
I'm just wondering if anyone has studied it.
I'm just wondering if anyone has studied it.
How can anybody draw a conclusion that being next to power lines causes cancer. Just like concluding that the decline in pirates has caused global warming (FSM) blessed be his noodley appendages.
Why is it commenters on such a smart site so dumb? If you can't understand and properly interpret what is written here maybe you should try this site.
http://www.childrenswebmagazine.com/
http://www.childrenswebmagazine.com/
QUOTE (mrlewish+Aug 24 2007, 09:56 PM)
How can anybody draw a conclusion that being next to power lines causes cancer. Just like concluding that the decline in pirates has caused global warming (FSM) blessed be his noodley appendages.
Let's look at it this way, you may be right, but these people here are not taking the same attitude:
Power lines and cancer
http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/healthyli...ies/powerlines/
Let's look at it this way, you may be right, but these people here are not taking the same attitude:
Power lines and cancer
http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/healthyli...ies/powerlines/
Why 328 yards and not 330 yards?
Although 60Hz EM is, of course, not ionizing, and thus could not damage DNA directly, it does have the ability to alter the rates of chemical reactions--which might affect the body's ability to avoid/fight damaged DNA. Let me point out that in my first post I was not saying EM-induced-cancer was impossible. I was saying that the conclusion of the study was illogical from the statistics available. So many "conclusions" of studies neglect the possibility of other correlations (like marijuana use causing schizophrenia rather than schizophrenia causing marijuana use). I see such assumptions all the time in "scientific" conclusions.
Got curious after making the above post. For the record, Tasmania is 50Hz.
OK guys, I'm about to give you the answer as to why "proximity" to power lines affects the statistical data for cancer risk assessment. My degree is in Electrical Engineering, and I've had 6 years of Engineering School education in three different fields of engineering. I once worked for an electric power company maintaining & installing electronic monitoring systems for the power lines under discussion in this article.
The problem with the article under discussion, is that it fails to discuss the electro-magnetic field source that is the problem, so everyone is left guessing what is going on here with regard to the validity of their risk assessment. The problem is not something mysterious with regard to the strength of magnetic flux fields that surround all current carrying conductors (power lines). The problem is with the "intensity of radio influence voltage" generated at all "connection points" along the length of the conductor cables. Drive your car beneath a power line with the AM radio on and you will hear "static", the higher the voltage vs. proximity to the lines the louder the static will be, thus creating a variability in the radio wave concentrations you will hear on your radio, this is called "radio influence voltage" (RIV for short). This RIV falls into the same wavelength of the electro-magnetic
where your micro-wave oven boils water water, and your body by weight ratio is 95% water. Everytime you pass under a power line youe body temperature may rise depending on the dosage of RIV you've been exposed to.
Power lines that have low resistance connections emit less RIV than power lines that do not have well maintained mechanical connector points. RIV will be emitted at any connector point along any current carrying conductor that is either loose or corroded. RIV exposure drops in proportion to the radio wave flux field concentrations & distance from the source of emissions, hence the association of cancer risk and it's variabilty to proximity of power lines.
The problem with the article under discussion, is that it fails to discuss the electro-magnetic field source that is the problem, so everyone is left guessing what is going on here with regard to the validity of their risk assessment. The problem is not something mysterious with regard to the strength of magnetic flux fields that surround all current carrying conductors (power lines). The problem is with the "intensity of radio influence voltage" generated at all "connection points" along the length of the conductor cables. Drive your car beneath a power line with the AM radio on and you will hear "static", the higher the voltage vs. proximity to the lines the louder the static will be, thus creating a variability in the radio wave concentrations you will hear on your radio, this is called "radio influence voltage" (RIV for short). This RIV falls into the same wavelength of the electro-magnetic
where your micro-wave oven boils water water, and your body by weight ratio is 95% water. Everytime you pass under a power line youe body temperature may rise depending on the dosage of RIV you've been exposed to.
Power lines that have low resistance connections emit less RIV than power lines that do not have well maintained mechanical connector points. RIV will be emitted at any connector point along any current carrying conductor that is either loose or corroded. RIV exposure drops in proportion to the radio wave flux field concentrations & distance from the source of emissions, hence the association of cancer risk and it's variabilty to proximity of power lines.
Pauldentler,
Informative post, thank you. I also want to add some info on what "ionizing" radiation is, how "non-ionizing" radiation can still ionize (heh), and some comments on near-field vs. far field.
"Ionizing radiation" means photons or massive particles each of which contains enough energy to break a molecular bond. For photons, this typically needs to be ultraviolet or higher, although some weak bonds are ionized even by red photons (but not many). Bonds in most large bio molecules need at least ultraviolet photons.
However, it turns out that lower frequency electric and magnetic fields can ionize as well. Even DC. (Technically a high-energy photon is transferred when this happens, even when its a DC field, but I won't confuse the issue with that, for now). This is especially the case with large molecules like enzymes, proteins, RNA, DNA. This is because the size of the molecule allows potential and/or kinetic energy (stresses and vibrations) to be stored and built up in the molecule over a time and over space (the size of the molecule) such that sometimes the stored potential or kinetic energy is enough to break a bond.
Also, as I said earlier, an electric or magnetic field can alter the RATE of chemical reactions between complex molecules, without actually breaking any bonds, because the field will align dipoles to some extent when they wouldn't have been aligned, before.
Paul mentioned that bad contacts and missing insulation can introduce non-linear resistance (like arcing), which gives rise to far higher frequencies than 50/60Hz. The photons are still no more energetic than microwave, however, so they aren't directly ionizing. The propagation of such waves is, of course, different from the low frequency stuff, so there may be something to consider, there. The low-frequency stuff does goes through walls a LOT more easily and is stronger as well, so I suspect its the 50/60Hz stuff that causes the strongest fields in homes.
Another consideration is near field vs. far field. The near field is that part of the energy that is not radiated. It is roughly within a few wavelengths of the, in this case, what we try to make an ideal transmission line (but fail because of bad contacts, failure to match impedance as loads change, etc.). Unlike far field (which is simply regular old radio waves) which drops off at 1/R^2, the near field strength drops off at higher inverse powers. So the high-tension lines still radiate a considerable amount of 50/60Hz photons, and when you are within a few wavelengths (whether its the 50/60Hz or the higher freq stuff that comes from non-linearities in the system), you can get a lot more exposure from the near field.
The question then becomes, "is the cancer-causing effect negligible or notable".
Informative post, thank you. I also want to add some info on what "ionizing" radiation is, how "non-ionizing" radiation can still ionize (heh), and some comments on near-field vs. far field.
"Ionizing radiation" means photons or massive particles each of which contains enough energy to break a molecular bond. For photons, this typically needs to be ultraviolet or higher, although some weak bonds are ionized even by red photons (but not many). Bonds in most large bio molecules need at least ultraviolet photons.
However, it turns out that lower frequency electric and magnetic fields can ionize as well. Even DC. (Technically a high-energy photon is transferred when this happens, even when its a DC field, but I won't confuse the issue with that, for now). This is especially the case with large molecules like enzymes, proteins, RNA, DNA. This is because the size of the molecule allows potential and/or kinetic energy (stresses and vibrations) to be stored and built up in the molecule over a time and over space (the size of the molecule) such that sometimes the stored potential or kinetic energy is enough to break a bond.
Also, as I said earlier, an electric or magnetic field can alter the RATE of chemical reactions between complex molecules, without actually breaking any bonds, because the field will align dipoles to some extent when they wouldn't have been aligned, before.
Paul mentioned that bad contacts and missing insulation can introduce non-linear resistance (like arcing), which gives rise to far higher frequencies than 50/60Hz. The photons are still no more energetic than microwave, however, so they aren't directly ionizing. The propagation of such waves is, of course, different from the low frequency stuff, so there may be something to consider, there. The low-frequency stuff does goes through walls a LOT more easily and is stronger as well, so I suspect its the 50/60Hz stuff that causes the strongest fields in homes.
Another consideration is near field vs. far field. The near field is that part of the energy that is not radiated. It is roughly within a few wavelengths of the, in this case, what we try to make an ideal transmission line (but fail because of bad contacts, failure to match impedance as loads change, etc.). Unlike far field (which is simply regular old radio waves) which drops off at 1/R^2, the near field strength drops off at higher inverse powers. So the high-tension lines still radiate a considerable amount of 50/60Hz photons, and when you are within a few wavelengths (whether its the 50/60Hz or the higher freq stuff that comes from non-linearities in the system), you can get a lot more exposure from the near field.
The question then becomes, "is the cancer-causing effect negligible or notable".
QUOTE (fleem+Aug 26 2007, 02:08 AM)
Got curious after making the above post. For the record, Tasmania is 50Hz.
The problem in Tasmania isn't radiation, it's inbreeding
The problem in Tasmania isn't radiation, it's inbreeding
"Why is it commenters on such a smart site so dumb?"
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Try it again, loser!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Try it again, loser!
What is else is new? This has been a established fact for years, it is just that Americans have been misinformed bu the large utilities and the government which is supposed to protect them. Anyone living withing 1000 feet of high power lines is being fried by EMF. 300 to 500 feet is the minimum distance, but EMF like radioactivity which also abounds in this country, must have zero tolerance as the only safe amount is zero. But it does not stop there; substations are even more harmful and the transformers and high power lines that go through your streets are as harmful.
Appliances are also a source of bed electrical energy that eventually contributes to cancers.
I have personally conducted extensive studies and research and found entire neighborhoods of sick people due to EMF effects.
Beware!
Appliances are also a source of bed electrical energy that eventually contributes to cancers.
I have personally conducted extensive studies and research and found entire neighborhoods of sick people due to EMF effects.
Beware!
The human body is a mechanical-chemical machine that is controlled by electromagnetic signals. That's why we have ECG, EEG, etc all over our body. Therefore, since electromagnetic signals can interfere with each other, the body functioning (control) can be altered if external electromagnetic signas is incident in our bodies. Elementar, my dear Watson...
Best wishes, Rui F. Souza/Brazil
My blogs, focused on health are: [not allowed here]
Best wishes, Rui F. Souza/Brazil
My blogs, focused on health are: [not allowed here]
How about a little common sense? Why do they make antennas out of metal? The answer is clear, electric metals are easily powered by the magnetic component of an electromagnetic field.
When we pass a piece of conductive metal through a magnetic field we cause electrons to begin flowing in the metal. If we look at the table of elements, and in particular, the top row of ten transition metals, we notice that many of these are the very metals which are vital to our health. Iron, copper, manganese and zinc all being excellent examples.
They know that electric metals are intricately involved in the development of Alzheimer's and other neurodegenerative diseases. Further study has shown that ions of zinc, copper, and iron can cause a cascade failure where waxy deposits begin to form in the brain. How do you engineer metal ions in the brain?
Metal ions are quite simply atoms of zinc, or copper, or iron which have gained or given up an electron. When we force the electrons in transition metals to begin flowing with the help of externally applied magnetic fields, we create ideal conditions for disease to take hold.
They deliver water through copper pipes, they sell us metal pots and pans. They tell us to eat with a knife and fork. They make money out of nickel and copper. Nickel is used in electric toasters, hair dryers, and most heating elements because nickel burns like fire when you pass electricity through it. Nickel is unique, in the sense that it loves soaking up magnetic energy, much like a sponge soaks up water, the nickel is highly permeable to magnetic fields.
In the natural world you would only be exposed to a tiny amount of nickel, in this modern world it is found all around you, in hydrogenated fats, in utensils, in coffee, in underwire bras, in diesel fumes, and in beer, and chocolate. They heap electric metals upon the people and then they build an infrastructure which powers the transition metals.
Much of the disease which is found in the modern world is born of an electric beast. The people overcome with transition metals are part of the circuit. The top row of 10 transition metals all have seven electron heads, or shells as they are commonly called. The velocity of the metal, through a magnetic field, will determine the amount of induced electron flow.
Standing beside the train as the massive electric motor broadcasts magnetic vector fields will force the transition metals, in your body, to burn in phase shifting fires. Standing under the high voltage power lines is one thing, driving at 70MPH while you pass under them is quite another. The excitation of stationary metals is one thing, the excitation of metals which are moving rapidly in flowing blood is another story.
When we pass a piece of conductive metal through a magnetic field we cause electrons to begin flowing in the metal. If we look at the table of elements, and in particular, the top row of ten transition metals, we notice that many of these are the very metals which are vital to our health. Iron, copper, manganese and zinc all being excellent examples.
They know that electric metals are intricately involved in the development of Alzheimer's and other neurodegenerative diseases. Further study has shown that ions of zinc, copper, and iron can cause a cascade failure where waxy deposits begin to form in the brain. How do you engineer metal ions in the brain?
Metal ions are quite simply atoms of zinc, or copper, or iron which have gained or given up an electron. When we force the electrons in transition metals to begin flowing with the help of externally applied magnetic fields, we create ideal conditions for disease to take hold.
They deliver water through copper pipes, they sell us metal pots and pans. They tell us to eat with a knife and fork. They make money out of nickel and copper. Nickel is used in electric toasters, hair dryers, and most heating elements because nickel burns like fire when you pass electricity through it. Nickel is unique, in the sense that it loves soaking up magnetic energy, much like a sponge soaks up water, the nickel is highly permeable to magnetic fields.
In the natural world you would only be exposed to a tiny amount of nickel, in this modern world it is found all around you, in hydrogenated fats, in utensils, in coffee, in underwire bras, in diesel fumes, and in beer, and chocolate. They heap electric metals upon the people and then they build an infrastructure which powers the transition metals.
Much of the disease which is found in the modern world is born of an electric beast. The people overcome with transition metals are part of the circuit. The top row of 10 transition metals all have seven electron heads, or shells as they are commonly called. The velocity of the metal, through a magnetic field, will determine the amount of induced electron flow.
Standing beside the train as the massive electric motor broadcasts magnetic vector fields will force the transition metals, in your body, to burn in phase shifting fires. Standing under the high voltage power lines is one thing, driving at 70MPH while you pass under them is quite another. The excitation of stationary metals is one thing, the excitation of metals which are moving rapidly in flowing blood is another story.
Anyone who doubts this should look up some books by Paul Brodeur, long-time staff writer at the New Yorker:
"Currents Of Death" and "The Great Power-Line Cover-Up: How the Utilities and the Government are Trying to Hide the Cancer Hazards Posed by Electromagnetic Fields"
This information has been covered up by the government, the military and the utility companies for 40 years. There is substantial evidence to indicate that power lines are dangerous.
"Currents Of Death" and "The Great Power-Line Cover-Up: How the Utilities and the Government are Trying to Hide the Cancer Hazards Posed by Electromagnetic Fields"
This information has been covered up by the government, the military and the utility companies for 40 years. There is substantial evidence to indicate that power lines are dangerous.
After that, did nobody ask him anymore questions?
QUOTE
When we force the electrons in transition metals to begin flowing with the help of externally applied magnetic fields, we create ideal conditions for disease to take hold.
Big leap --- that
QUOTE (meBigGuy+Dec 25 2007, 04:19 AM)
Big leap --- that
O meBigGuy, a long time have I been patient, and restrained myself. I will tell you a story.
After graduation I needed some computer parts. Along with my girlfriend, I went to the local store which was most likely to have the parts I required. It was a fun place, full of bright minds and people who understood the technology I was using. So I asked about many things.
Being that I had just graduated I was looking for work, so I thought I might as well enquire. The smart man I was talking with decided to challenge me, and he asked, "What is a 6510?" I looked at him and smiled. I didn't say a word, I took the hand of my girlfriend and we walked out.
After leaving the store my girlfriend asked me how I could let this happen. I told her the 6510 was an 8 bit CPU very much like the 6502. She was furious. She couldn't understand why I would be quiet when I knew the answer. I told her it was better to be the quiet man than the loud fool.
When you speak with me, you should try and take a moment to understand the depth of my reasoning. I am not likely to respond to snarky comments, but I will always make a stand for that which is right.
O meBigGuy, a long time have I been patient, and restrained myself. I will tell you a story.
After graduation I needed some computer parts. Along with my girlfriend, I went to the local store which was most likely to have the parts I required. It was a fun place, full of bright minds and people who understood the technology I was using. So I asked about many things.
Being that I had just graduated I was looking for work, so I thought I might as well enquire. The smart man I was talking with decided to challenge me, and he asked, "What is a 6510?" I looked at him and smiled. I didn't say a word, I took the hand of my girlfriend and we walked out.
After leaving the store my girlfriend asked me how I could let this happen. I told her the 6510 was an 8 bit CPU very much like the 6502. She was furious. She couldn't understand why I would be quiet when I knew the answer. I told her it was better to be the quiet man than the loud fool.
When you speak with me, you should try and take a moment to understand the depth of my reasoning. I am not likely to respond to snarky comments, but I will always make a stand for that which is right.
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