Hi folks!
Under the "Point Nine Recurring Equals One (or not)" topic discussions in the "Puzzling Questions" forum, I had spoken of 'giving' maths a more 'contextual' basis so as to make it MORE relevant, effective and robust for 'modeling reality'.
Judging by some of the responses, certain professional mathematicains and mathematics enthusiasts seemed to take umbrage when they heard that some of us 'on the outer' were not entirely 'satisfied' with the 'incomplete' status quo; and that some of us were even actively trying to improve mathematics from what it IS...to what it COULD BE...by simply looking again at it's 'foundations' and 'axioms' PER SE with a new 'perspective'.
Quoted just below is the latest reaction from one who is riled at the thought that some 'non-entity' (mathematics-wise, hehehe) has the gall and temerity to 'challenge' the maths status quo with which mathematical types/professionals are apparently quite 'satisfied' and 'content'. This reaction from NCN was even AFTER I pointed out to all that "Rome wasn't built in a day"....and neither was 'Mathematics'.
QUOTE (NoCleverName+Jul 10 2007, 09:36 AM)
Put up or shut up.
NCN's impatience has led him to make that 'retort'. His 'impatient challenge' I think makes an unfair demand, especially since MY work on 'Contextual Mathematics/Number Theory' has only been going for a few years VERY PART TIME...while the CURRENT status quo in maths/number theory has had CENTURIES and THOUSANDS OF MATHEMATICIANS to get to the current stage!
HOWEVER....Just to show him and everyone else that I have been merely criticising CONSTRUCTIVELY and with 'constructive alternatives' in mind, I will accede to NCN's request to "put up or shut up", hehehe!
I will here put ONE ITEM OF MANY within current mathematics/number theory that need 'sorting out' if maths/number theory is to ADVANCE and become IMMEDIATELY MORE RELEVANT.
Again, the following observation is but ONE of the perceived maths 'improvement areas' according to my 'contextual perspective' in the field.
In the reality context of observable phenomena, there is NO SUCH THING/POSSIBILITY as an 'abstract' NUMBER LINE.
ANY 'line' one cares to set out or draw is in reality IMMERSED in PROCESS and MOVEMENT...and as such is NOT an 'absolute' or 'defined' THING or DISTANCE etc.
So all the ZENO PARADOXES and 'progressive series' LIMITS and FUNCTIONS based on the IDEA that such a 'line' is COMPLETE AND STATIC from one 'end' to the 'other end' is in 'reality process context' FALLACIOUS from the outset.
Hence all those 'weird' things like Cantor's Set etc which come up with 'logical' BUT 'irrelevant in reality' results (like removing as many parts of a 'line' in a continuous process and STILL ending up with an 'INFINITE NUMBER OF POINTS' left on that 'line'.
One can see that the analysis of ANY 'line', WHEREVER OR HOWEVER OR WHENEVER IT IS 'DRAWN', and WHETHER PHYSICAL OR ABSTRACT, should allow for the 'contextual' fact that it is NOT 'stationary'. It is actually ALWAYS MOVING (in space-time? or whatever).
In other words, even as we 'LOOK' at and 'DISECT' a 'line' and make 'mathematical/number theory' observations about its 'properties', we are MISSING THE FACT that the 'line' we are analysing bears NO RELATION to the presumed stationary/absolute/finite 'distance/length' line we 'abstractly' and mistakenly 'see'.
Since the 'line' is actually tracing a PATH/TRAJECTORY THROUGH 'SPACETIME (or whatever), ANY so-called 1-DIMENSIONAL 'line' is actually a 2-DIMENSIONAL TIME/SPACE-dependent PLANE/MEMBRANE etc.
And THAT is ONE of the reasons why maths/number theory CURRENTLY gets all those weird results....because they are actually dealing with 'processes/functions that have LATERAL 'EXCURSION' 'properties/results' from the 'imagined' original 'LINEAR' construct.
Anyhow, NCN, I hope this shows that I (and everyone who is not satisfied with the maths status quo) aren't NECESSARILY as 'lazy' as you think.
Whether right or wrong, the above 'perspective' was arrived at through 'effort' beyond the 'accepted' orthodoxy 'pathway'...and as such involved a LOT more 'effort' than just UNQUESTIONINGLY and COMPLACENTLY 'following along with the crowd and the status quo'.
That's all the hints I can give you at this time, mateys!
The rest will have to wait until I have more time (oh what precious commodity!) to consider and incorporate the results of further stage results in our TOE efforts. Hopefully soon!
And now, mathematicians and non-mathematicians alike....GOOD DISCUSSING....and play nice, please.
Cheers all!
RC.
.
NCN's impatience has led him to make that 'retort'. His 'impatient challenge' I think makes an unfair demand, especially since MY work on 'Contextual Mathematics/Number Theory' has only been going for a few years VERY PART TIME...while the CURRENT status quo in maths/number theory has had CENTURIES and THOUSANDS OF MATHEMATICIANS to get to the current stage!
HOWEVER....Just to show him and everyone else that I have been merely criticising CONSTRUCTIVELY and with 'constructive alternatives' in mind, I will accede to NCN's request to "put up or shut up", hehehe!
I will here put ONE ITEM OF MANY within current mathematics/number theory that need 'sorting out' if maths/number theory is to ADVANCE and become IMMEDIATELY MORE RELEVANT.
Again, the following observation is but ONE of the perceived maths 'improvement areas' according to my 'contextual perspective' in the field.
In the reality context of observable phenomena, there is NO SUCH THING/POSSIBILITY as an 'abstract' NUMBER LINE.
ANY 'line' one cares to set out or draw is in reality IMMERSED in PROCESS and MOVEMENT...and as such is NOT an 'absolute' or 'defined' THING or DISTANCE etc.
So all the ZENO PARADOXES and 'progressive series' LIMITS and FUNCTIONS based on the IDEA that such a 'line' is COMPLETE AND STATIC from one 'end' to the 'other end' is in 'reality process context' FALLACIOUS from the outset.
Hence all those 'weird' things like Cantor's Set etc which come up with 'logical' BUT 'irrelevant in reality' results (like removing as many parts of a 'line' in a continuous process and STILL ending up with an 'INFINITE NUMBER OF POINTS' left on that 'line'.
One can see that the analysis of ANY 'line', WHEREVER OR HOWEVER OR WHENEVER IT IS 'DRAWN', and WHETHER PHYSICAL OR ABSTRACT, should allow for the 'contextual' fact that it is NOT 'stationary'. It is actually ALWAYS MOVING (in space-time? or whatever).
In other words, even as we 'LOOK' at and 'DISECT' a 'line' and make 'mathematical/number theory' observations about its 'properties', we are MISSING THE FACT that the 'line' we are analysing bears NO RELATION to the presumed stationary/absolute/finite 'distance/length' line we 'abstractly' and mistakenly 'see'.
Since the 'line' is actually tracing a PATH/TRAJECTORY THROUGH 'SPACETIME (or whatever), ANY so-called 1-DIMENSIONAL 'line' is actually a 2-DIMENSIONAL TIME/SPACE-dependent PLANE/MEMBRANE etc.
And THAT is ONE of the reasons why maths/number theory CURRENTLY gets all those weird results....because they are actually dealing with 'processes/functions that have LATERAL 'EXCURSION' 'properties/results' from the 'imagined' original 'LINEAR' construct.
Anyhow, NCN, I hope this shows that I (and everyone who is not satisfied with the maths status quo) aren't NECESSARILY as 'lazy' as you think.
Whether right or wrong, the above 'perspective' was arrived at through 'effort' beyond the 'accepted' orthodoxy 'pathway'...and as such involved a LOT more 'effort' than just UNQUESTIONINGLY and COMPLACENTLY 'following along with the crowd and the status quo'.
That's all the hints I can give you at this time, mateys!
The rest will have to wait until I have more time (oh what precious commodity!) to consider and incorporate the results of further stage results in our TOE efforts. Hopefully soon!
And now, mathematicians and non-mathematicians alike....GOOD DISCUSSING....and play nice, please.
Cheers all!
RC.
.
So you are going to are going to develop a ToE with the mathematical equivalent of counting on your fingers? Good luck with that.
Without generality and abstraction the math becomes too cumbersome to be usefull. I would need one theory to perform addition on apples and another for oranges. The beauty of math is that it works regardless of context.
Without generality and abstraction the math becomes too cumbersome to be usefull. I would need one theory to perform addition on apples and another for oranges. The beauty of math is that it works regardless of context.
QUOTE (Wulf+Jul 11 2007, 01:58 AM)
So you are going to are going to develop a ToE with the mathematical equivalent of counting on your fingers? Good luck with that.
Without generality and abstraction the math becomes too cumbersome to be usefull. I would need one theory to perform addition on apples and another for oranges. The beauty of math is that it works regardless of context.
Hi Wulf!
Thanks for your input, mate.
Can you explain how you got that from the hints I posted?
And can you point to the law that says maths would become "...too cumbersome..." with more 'context' as indicated?
In any case, would you prefer less cumbersome and less relevant; or more cumbersome and more relevant?hehehe.
And did you miss where I specifically said that THIS EXAMPLE was but ONE of the many items needing re-thinking across all the current mathematics?
Did you understand what the observations IMPLY for the current ABSTRACTION, STATIONARY and FINITE 'view' and 'practice' in 'number line' analysis and logics which my observations suggest 'may be' INADEQUATE AS THEY ARE...and so could do with some 'enhancing' because they give 'weird' and 'undefined' results?
Please elaborate if you have any specific 'counter-argument' to the observations/implications.
It would be very welcome by all here.
If you are indeed serious about mathematics and its future, please try to resist the temptation to 'knee-jerk' reactions, and take the time you require to calmly consider the implications before you respond further.
Cheers and thanks again mate!
RC.
.
Without generality and abstraction the math becomes too cumbersome to be usefull. I would need one theory to perform addition on apples and another for oranges. The beauty of math is that it works regardless of context.
Hi Wulf!
Thanks for your input, mate.
Can you explain how you got that from the hints I posted?
And can you point to the law that says maths would become "...too cumbersome..." with more 'context' as indicated?
In any case, would you prefer less cumbersome and less relevant; or more cumbersome and more relevant?hehehe.
And did you miss where I specifically said that THIS EXAMPLE was but ONE of the many items needing re-thinking across all the current mathematics?
Did you understand what the observations IMPLY for the current ABSTRACTION, STATIONARY and FINITE 'view' and 'practice' in 'number line' analysis and logics which my observations suggest 'may be' INADEQUATE AS THEY ARE...and so could do with some 'enhancing' because they give 'weird' and 'undefined' results?
Please elaborate if you have any specific 'counter-argument' to the observations/implications.
It would be very welcome by all here.
If you are indeed serious about mathematics and its future, please try to resist the temptation to 'knee-jerk' reactions, and take the time you require to calmly consider the implications before you respond further.
Cheers and thanks again mate!
RC.
.
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Jul 10 2007, 08:24 PM)
Hi Wulf!
Thanks for your input, mate.
Can you explain how you got that from the hints I posted?
And can you point to the law that says maths would become "...too cumbersome..." with more 'context' as indicated?
In any case, would you prefer less cumbersome and less relevant; or more cumbersome and more relevant?hehehe.
And did you miss ehere I specifically said that this EXAMPLE was but ONE of the many items needing re-thinking across all the current mathematics?
Did you understand what the observations IMPLY for the current ABSTRACTION, STATIONARY and FINITE 'view' and 'practice' in 'number line' analysis and logics which my observations suggest 'may be' INADEQUATE AS THEY ARE...and so could do with some 'enhancing' because they give 'weird' and 'undefined' results?
Please elaborate if you have any specific 'counter-argument' to the observed implications.
It would be very welcome by all here.
If you are indeed serious about mathematics and its future, please try to resist the temptation to 'knee-jerk' reactions, and take the time you require to calmly consider the implications before you respond further.
Cheers and thanks again mate!
RC.
.
QUOTE
Can you explain how you got that from the hints I posted?
Cramming atm, but I'll take a quick shot...
First of all let us look at the math being 'Finite'. Without infinity you can't even define counting. Since you can always count one higher than your currently defined set. This is a clear example of the importance of the concept of infinity.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| Can you explain how you got that from the hints I posted? |
Cramming atm, but I'll take a quick shot...
First of all let us look at the math being 'Finite'. Without infinity you can't even define counting. Since you can always count one higher than your currently defined set. This is a clear example of the importance of the concept of infinity.
Did you understand what the observations IMPLY for the current ABSTRACTION, STATIONARY and FINITE 'view' and 'practice' in 'number line' analysis and logics which my observations suggest 'may be' INADEQUATE AS THEY ARE...and so could do with some 'enhancing' because they give 'weird' and 'undefined' results?
Actually this implies that your understanding of math is inadequate as it is. You don't seem to understand the implications of your own reasoning even at the most fundamental levels.
Anyhow, I have work to do. I'm sure others will give you more details, but I doubt you will be able to understand them.
QUOTE (Wulf+Jul 11 2007, 02:51 AM)
Cramming atm, but I'll take a quick shot...
First of all let us look at the math being 'Finite'. Without infinity you can't even define counting. Since you can always count one higher than your currently defined set. This is a clear example of the importance of the concept of infinity.
Actually this implies that your understanding of math is inadequate as it is. You don't seem to understand the implications of your own reasoning even at the most fundamental levels.
Anyhow, I have work to do. I'm sure others will give you more details, but I doubt you will be able to understand them.
Hi Wulf!
The observations had to do with the conventional abstract 'number line' construct/analysis.
No more; no less.
What ever else you think I said is just that...your interpretation, mate!hehehe.
You seem to have somehow got it into your head that the concept of 'infinity' and 'counting' had something to do with what I observed per se.
They have not.
So please don't in your haste introduce/argue aspects irrelevant to what I have questioned HERE.
I merely point to the fact that NO PHYSICAL/ABSTRACT 'LINE CONSTRUCT' IS PROPERLY DEFINED or CORRECTLY ANALYSABLE UNLESS we RECOGNIZE AND ALLOW for the fact that no such line is EVER STATIC/FINITE in 'location/length' because all things have absolute/relative MOTION with respect to (spacetime? or) whatever the reality 'context' IS.
As such, the implication is that no analysis of ANY 'number line' PROPERTIES can be said to be COMPLETE without also considering the 'EXCURSION' across spacetime of the 'points' supposedly 'making up' that 'line' in any analysis/theory based on same.
Please try to comprehend what IS said and what is NOT said. Otherwise your input will miss the mark, hehehe!
Cheers and have fun "...Cramming atm..."!
RC.
.
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Jul 10 2007, 09:13 PM)
Hi Wulf!
The observations had to do with the conventional abstract 'number line' construct/analysis.
No more; no less.
What ever else you think I said is just that...your interpretation.
You seem to already got it into your head that the concept of 'infinity' and 'counting' have something to do with what I observed.
They have not.
So please don't in your haste introduce aspects I have NOT questioned HERE.
I merely point to the fact that NO PHYSICAL/ABSTRACT 'LINE CONSTRUCT' IS PROPERLY DEFINED or CORRECTLY ANALYSABLE UNLESS we RECOGNIZE AND ALLOW for the fact that no such line is EVER STATIC/FINITE in 'location/length' because all things have absolute/relative MOTION with respect to (spacetime? or) whatever the reality 'context' IS.
As such, the implication is that no analysis of ANY 'number line' PROPERTIES can be said to be COMPLETE without also considering the 'EXCURSION' across spacetime of the 'points' supposedly 'making up' that 'line' in any analysis/theory based on same.
Please try to comprehend what IS said and what is NOT said. Otherwise your input will miss the mark, hehehe!
Cheers and have fun "...Cramming atm..."!
RC.
.
I just used the simplest example that came to mind at first glance.
Lets try this in terms of your 'Finite' number line then, say I'm making measurements in km, and I am at the limit of precision of your line, the act of dropping down to cm for a calculation then converting back to km would lead to the loss of information. A finite representation is not scalable.
The reasonable responce to someone spotting serious flaws in your logic at a glance would be take a look and think a little. I'm not even a mathematician.
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Jul 10 2007, 09:21 PM)
In the reality context of observable phenomena, there is NO SUCH THING/POSSIBILITY as an 'abstract' NUMBER LINE.
Now, that is bizarre, RC! You don't see what is wrong with assuming that
Either the model *addresses* reality or it doesn't. If it does, then the model "is" reality. I am NOT saying that it's right because math books say so, of course (and I haven't read any lately anyway). If a means exists of reducing reality to its bare minimum so that it can be *addressed*, what that is supposed to mean to me is that the model is an infinitesimal of said reality thus its divisor, thus it has validity independent of the observer. The "observer" didn't quantize it... it was already like that when I got there
Similarly, (as far as *existence is concerned) if the abstract number line doesn't *exist*, what's to keep me from stating that my mind doesn't exist? That my worries are about nothing in particular? Take away the validity of the line number away and you have taken the validity of any theory of mind with it!javascript:emoticon(':(')
Either the model *addresses* reality or it doesn't. If it does, then the model "is" reality. I am NOT saying that it's right because math books say so, of course (and I haven't read any lately anyway). If a means exists of reducing reality to its bare minimum so that it can be *addressed*, what that is supposed to mean to me is that the model is an infinitesimal of said reality thus its divisor, thus it has validity independent of the observer. The "observer" didn't quantize it... it was already like that when I got there
Similarly, (as far as *existence is concerned) if the abstract number line doesn't *exist*, what's to keep me from stating that my mind doesn't exist? That my worries are about nothing in particular? Take away the validity of the line number away and you have taken the validity of any theory of mind with it!javascript:emoticon(':(')
ANY 'line' one cares to set out or draw is in reality IMMERSED in PROCESS and MOVEMENT...and as such is NOT an 'absolute' or 'defined' THING or DISTANCE etc.
Not so fast: are you saying that immersion in processing and movement has no presumed stationary/absolute/finite distance or length from my mind? That I am a part of the process of existence of that which is outside me? That the model does exist, does have validity, and that the fact that I am a part of it proves beyond a reasonable doubt that it exists independent of me? Finally, that strictly as a matter of immersion in processing and movement, that I am the center of all lines?
Aha! Thank you, I agree.
(Don't know what you are going to say but I agree!)
Hi Wulf! Why aren't you "...cramming atm..." instead of rashly replying here?hehehe.
Seriously, mate, you just HAVE to 'take a breath' and stick to the point.
What you just rattled off is mere 'convention' and 'bounded' perspective that has NOTHING to do with what is being observed in this topic.
One more time.....
Whatever 'line', or whatever conventional analysis IS being done on it, is NOT 'complete' in BASIS. See? No 'particular' CURRENT CONVENTIONAL AXIOMATIC argument as to what IS BEING DONE OR WHY has any bearing on the point that the 'line' construct ITSELF AS CURRENTLY 'defined' (and 'used/manipulated' by WHATEVER analytical system that CURRENTLY exists) is INADEQUATE AT BASIS.
All the things you are saying may or may not have relevance in what is NOW being 'done', but it has no bearing on what the observation implies regarding to the WHOLE BASIS for seeing that ANY 'line' construct AT ALL is NOT COMPLETE as it stands in definition/use NOW....simply because the 'axiomatic logics' of what is being done NOW has NOT allowed for the fact that the 'line' construct they based everything ON is NOT a COMPLETE/ADEQUATE ENOUGH 'construct' for current analyses and for what those analyses are expected to 'yield'....
.....which 'yield' is currently 'infested' with UNDEFINED and WEIRD 'things'.
Wouldn't it be nice to find out what all those 'undefined things' WERE? Have you no curiosity what they might IMPLY and and what might be accomplished if we 'treat' them so that they will no longer BE 'undefined'...and perhaps give us further information as to the underlying basis of reality in ALL contexts, and not just the 'already defined' ones?
Get "Cramming..." mate! This can wait until you have time to consider at leisure before 'knee-jerking' beside-the-point stuff into this discussion!hehehe.
And please try to keep in mind that THIS topic's observation/item is ONE among MANY OTHER parts of my 'contextual perspective' TOTALITY. Thanks.
Cheers!
RC.
.
One of the advantages of being willing to learn and puting thought into what I am learning is that I've developed a conceptual framework that allows me to quickly reason through things. There is nothing rash about my responses.
Do you need to sound out this sentence, or do you recognise the words without having to sound them out? Think a little.
Jya mata.
Hehehe. Give me 'slow' and 'complete' over 'quickly' and 'incomplete' anytime mate!
Still, for some people 'near enough' is apparently good enough if it gets them through the exams on the 'orthodoxy'.
Some other people 'try harder' even though they don't have to; because in some things, 'near enough' is NOT good enough, Wulf.
Can YOU read THAT and comprehend it OK with your 'quick reasoning'?
A reminder: Insults are NOT 'valid currency' in lieu of actual scientific debate on the point raised.
Cheers all!
RC.
.
That was meant to illustrate a point, not as an insult. Although I imagine it could be percieved that way if you caught your lips moving as you read it.
Hi StevenA! Was that ever raised in the 0.9r = 1 thread?
Perhaps AN, NCN et al can comment on your observations now?
Can you think of any 'contextual' terms/techniques that might 'enhance' those existing techniques/equations?
If not, maybe AlphaNumeric and NCN et al can help in this thread?
Gotta go for the rest of the day, folks. So....play nice!hehehe.
RC.
.
I believe I've made some comments along similar lines in that thread though likely not as directly about those specific discontinuities.
In terms of useful enhancements to integration and differentiation, I'd say an obvious one would be in frequency domain operations - like generating novel filter responses or Laplace transforms.
There's a stong disconnect between linear (additive) and exponential/logarithmic (multiplicative, which is linear on a logarithmic scale but this creates a 2 dimensional plane of values for numbers that has irreducible prime features) operations. Each is non-linear relative to the other and transformations between are the fundamental cause of complexity and we see this inherent in calculus as well. If we can remove this discontinuity then multiplication and addition could potentially be replaced by a single non-linear operation (my guess is we can take some clues from quantum mechanics here and use statistical values that represent both a number and a process simultaneous, much like irrational numbers, pi, e and .9r represent processes and not a specific numbers though they have arbitrarily accurate numeric approximations associated with them ... you could possibly unify data and algorithms by having each value represent both a range of numerical values as well as a range of algorithmic processes that both have statistical ranges and then you could swap numeric accuracy for computational efficiency just like you can compute pi to a variable number of digits ... you'd just be performing symbolic manipulation and expanding the result until the desired statistical reliability was achieved for a result ... sounds funky but it should be possible. There are already known algorithms that are stochastic and are faster than any known deterministic alternatives ... the price, as is seen physically in quantum mechanics, is that you can't ever be certain the result is 100% correct, but then again any computer running Windows isn't guaranteed to be 100% functional anyway
No, I'm entirely serious!
)
As a simple example, take phi, the golden ratio. It's a simple ratio to generate and associated with many symbolic processes. If you avoid a numeric representation and instead retain an exact symbolic process (from a range of functionally identical processes) then theoretically you could calculate phi to any desired accuracy. But realistically we know we're only going to need to work with phi to some limited accuracy in the first place, so that also implies we don't need to use a process that generates phi exactly either. We could use an approximate process that generates an approximate result. So let's say we had some number like 1.617 (not exactly phi) and we wanted to efficiently multiply by this value approximately. If you iterate a fibonacci expansion for a limited number of terms you can find a value that's very close to 1.617 instead of phi. This could be seen as a tradeoff between numerical accuracy and computational efficiency (an extremely realistic form of tradeoff for real world computations). You could see this similar to physical particles with gaussian fields interacting with something similar to the Uncertainty Principle - each value is both a number and a process with probabilistic fields of interaction (though you can increase your equivalent sample size, or in this case computational resources, and generate an arbitrarily precise result given enough time).
I know most people won't recognize what the significance of this would be but you can go down the list of computational methods and find the same underlying problem of a two tiered system of representation and non-linear relationships between the two - AND-OR arrays in boolean or digital logic, sum of product terms in matrix multiplication, particle/wave duality in physics, or time/frequency domain operations and addition and multiplication giving rise to irreducibly prime relationships in mathematics. A single unified non-linear operation could allow for these two realms to be unified (and I believe gaussian/probabilistic fields are the key ... gaussians are transform invariant under Fourier and Lapace transforms, and as I showed even the code/data paradigm used in typical algorithms could be unifiable)
Now, that is bizarre, RC! You don't see what is wrong with assuming that
QUOTE
"the 'line' we are analysing bears NO RELATION to the presumed stationary/absolute/finite 'distance/length' line we 'abstractly' and mistakenly 'see'"?????
Either the model *addresses* reality or it doesn't. If it does, then the model "is" reality. I am NOT saying that it's right because math books say so, of course (and I haven't read any lately anyway). If a means exists of reducing reality to its bare minimum so that it can be *addressed*, what that is supposed to mean to me is that the model is an infinitesimal of said reality thus its divisor, thus it has validity independent of the observer. The "observer" didn't quantize it... it was already like that when I got there
Similarly, (as far as *existence is concerned) if the abstract number line doesn't *exist*, what's to keep me from stating that my mind doesn't exist? That my worries are about nothing in particular? Take away the validity of the line number away and you have taken the validity of any theory of mind with it!javascript:emoticon(':(')
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| "the 'line' we are analysing bears NO RELATION to the presumed stationary/absolute/finite 'distance/length' line we 'abstractly' and mistakenly 'see'"????? |
Either the model *addresses* reality or it doesn't. If it does, then the model "is" reality. I am NOT saying that it's right because math books say so, of course (and I haven't read any lately anyway). If a means exists of reducing reality to its bare minimum so that it can be *addressed*, what that is supposed to mean to me is that the model is an infinitesimal of said reality thus its divisor, thus it has validity independent of the observer. The "observer" didn't quantize it... it was already like that when I got there
Similarly, (as far as *existence is concerned) if the abstract number line doesn't *exist*, what's to keep me from stating that my mind doesn't exist? That my worries are about nothing in particular? Take away the validity of the line number away and you have taken the validity of any theory of mind with it!javascript:emoticon(':(')
ANY 'line' one cares to set out or draw is in reality IMMERSED in PROCESS and MOVEMENT...and as such is NOT an 'absolute' or 'defined' THING or DISTANCE etc.
Not so fast: are you saying that immersion in processing and movement has no presumed stationary/absolute/finite distance or length from my mind? That I am a part of the process of existence of that which is outside me? That the model does exist, does have validity, and that the fact that I am a part of it proves beyond a reasonable doubt that it exists independent of me? Finally, that strictly as a matter of immersion in processing and movement, that I am the center of all lines?
Aha! Thank you, I agree.
(Don't know what you are going to say but I agree!)
QUOTE (Wulf+Jul 11 2007, 03:25 AM)
I just used the simplest example that came to mind at first glance.
Lets try this in terms of your 'Finite' number line then, say I'm making measurements in km, and I am at the limit of precision of your line, the act of dropping down to cm for a calculation then converting back to km would lead to the loss of information. A finite representation is not scalable.
Hi Wulf! Why aren't you "Cramming atm..." instead of rashly replying here?hehehe.
Seriously, mate, you just HAVE to 'take a breath' and stick to the point.
What you just rattled off is mere 'convention' and 'bounded' perspective that has NOTHING to do with what is being observed in this topic.
One more time.....
Whatever 'line', or whatever conventional analysis IS being done on it, is NOT 'complete' in BASIS. See?
No 'particular' CURRENT CONVENTIONAL AXIOMATIC argument as to what IS BEING DONE OR WHY has any bearing on the point that the 'line' construct ITSELF AS CURRENTLY 'defined' (and 'used/manipulated' by WHATEVER analytical system that CURRENTLY exists) is INADEQUATE AT BASIS.
All the things you are saying may or may not have relevance in what is NOW being 'done', but it has no bearing on what the observation implies regarding to the WHOLE BASIS for seeing that ANY 'line' construct AT ALL is NOT COMPLETE as it stands in definition/use NOW....simply because the 'axiomatic logics' of what is being done NOW has NOT allowed for the fact that the 'line' construct they based everything ON is NOT a COMPLETE/ADEQUATE ENOUGH 'construct' for current analyses and for what those analyses are expected to 'yield'....
.....which 'yield' is currently 'infested' with UNDEFINED and WEIRD 'things'.
Wouldn't it be nice to find out what all those 'undefined/weird things' WERE? Have you no curiosity what they might IMPLY and what might be accomplished if we 'treat' them in NEW/IMPROVED equations/constructs so that they will no longer BE 'undefined/weird'...and perhaps give us further information as to the underlying basis of reality in ALL contexts, and not just the 'already defined' ones?
Get "Cramming..." mate! This can wait until you have time to consider at leisure before 'knee-jerking' beside-the-point stuff into this discussion!hehehe.
And please try to keep in mind that THIS topic's observation/item is ONE among MANY OTHER parts of my 'contextual perspective' TOTALITY. Thanks.
Cheers!
RC.
.
Lets try this in terms of your 'Finite' number line then, say I'm making measurements in km, and I am at the limit of precision of your line, the act of dropping down to cm for a calculation then converting back to km would lead to the loss of information. A finite representation is not scalable.
Hi Wulf! Why aren't you "Cramming atm..." instead of rashly replying here?hehehe.
Seriously, mate, you just HAVE to 'take a breath' and stick to the point.
What you just rattled off is mere 'convention' and 'bounded' perspective that has NOTHING to do with what is being observed in this topic.
One more time.....
Whatever 'line', or whatever conventional analysis IS being done on it, is NOT 'complete' in BASIS. See?
No 'particular' CURRENT CONVENTIONAL AXIOMATIC argument as to what IS BEING DONE OR WHY has any bearing on the point that the 'line' construct ITSELF AS CURRENTLY 'defined' (and 'used/manipulated' by WHATEVER analytical system that CURRENTLY exists) is INADEQUATE AT BASIS.
All the things you are saying may or may not have relevance in what is NOW being 'done', but it has no bearing on what the observation implies regarding to the WHOLE BASIS for seeing that ANY 'line' construct AT ALL is NOT COMPLETE as it stands in definition/use NOW....simply because the 'axiomatic logics' of what is being done NOW has NOT allowed for the fact that the 'line' construct they based everything ON is NOT a COMPLETE/ADEQUATE ENOUGH 'construct' for current analyses and for what those analyses are expected to 'yield'....
.....which 'yield' is currently 'infested' with UNDEFINED and WEIRD 'things'.
Wouldn't it be nice to find out what all those 'undefined/weird things' WERE? Have you no curiosity what they might IMPLY and what might be accomplished if we 'treat' them in NEW/IMPROVED equations/constructs so that they will no longer BE 'undefined/weird'...and perhaps give us further information as to the underlying basis of reality in ALL contexts, and not just the 'already defined' ones?
Get "Cramming..." mate! This can wait until you have time to consider at leisure before 'knee-jerking' beside-the-point stuff into this discussion!hehehe.
And please try to keep in mind that THIS topic's observation/item is ONE among MANY OTHER parts of my 'contextual perspective' TOTALITY. Thanks.
Cheers!
RC.
.
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Jul 10 2007, 09:45 PM)
Hi Wulf! Why aren't you "...cramming atm..." instead of rashly replying here?hehehe.
Seriously, mate, you just HAVE to 'take a breath' and stick to the point.
What you just rattled off is mere 'convention' and 'bounded' perspective that has NOTHING to do with what is being observed in this topic.
One more time.....
Whatever 'line', or whatever conventional analysis IS being done on it, is NOT 'complete' in BASIS. See? No 'particular' CURRENT CONVENTIONAL AXIOMATIC argument as to what IS BEING DONE OR WHY has any bearing on the point that the 'line' construct ITSELF AS CURRENTLY 'defined' (and 'used/manipulated' by WHATEVER analytical system that CURRENTLY exists) is INADEQUATE AT BASIS.
All the things you are saying may or may not have relevance in what is NOW being 'done', but it has no bearing on what the observation implies regarding to the WHOLE BASIS for seeing that ANY 'line' construct AT ALL is NOT COMPLETE as it stands in definition/use NOW....simply because the 'axiomatic logics' of what is being done NOW has NOT allowed for the fact that the 'line' construct they based everything ON is NOT a COMPLETE/ADEQUATE ENOUGH 'construct' for current analyses and for what those analyses are expected to 'yield'....
.....which 'yield' is currently 'infested' with UNDEFINED and WEIRD 'things'.
Wouldn't it be nice to find out what all those 'undefined things' WERE? Have you no curiosity what they might IMPLY and and what might be accomplished if we 'treat' them so that they will no longer BE 'undefined'...and perhaps give us further information as to the underlying basis of reality in ALL contexts, and not just the 'already defined' ones?
Get "Cramming..." mate! This can wait until you have time to consider at leisure before 'knee-jerking' beside-the-point stuff into this discussion!hehehe.
And please try to keep in mind that THIS topic's observation/item is ONE among MANY OTHER parts of my 'contextual perspective' TOTALITY. Thanks.
Cheers!
RC.
.
One of the advantages of being willing to learn and puting thought into what I am learning is that I've developed a conceptual framework that allows me to quickly reason through things. There is nothing rash about my responses.
Do you need to sound out this sentence, or do you recognise the words without having to sound them out? Think a little.
Jya mata.
QUOTE (Wulf+Jul 11 2007, 04:04 AM)
One of the advantages of being willing to learn and puting thought into what I am learning is that I've developed a conceptual framework that allows me to quickly reason through things. There is nothing rash about my responses.
Do you need to sound out this sentence, or do you recognise the words without having to sound them out? Think a little.
Jya mata.
Hehehe. Give me 'slow' and 'complete' over 'quickly' but 'incomplete' anytime mate!
Still, for some people 'near enough' is apparently good enough if it gets them through the exams on the 'orthodoxy'.
Some other people 'try harder' even though they don't have to; because in some things, 'near enough' is NOT good enough, Wulf.
Can YOU read THAT and comprehend it OK with your 'quick reasoning'?
Cheers all!
RC.
.
Do you need to sound out this sentence, or do you recognise the words without having to sound them out? Think a little.
Jya mata.
Hehehe. Give me 'slow' and 'complete' over 'quickly' but 'incomplete' anytime mate!
Still, for some people 'near enough' is apparently good enough if it gets them through the exams on the 'orthodoxy'.
Some other people 'try harder' even though they don't have to; because in some things, 'near enough' is NOT good enough, Wulf.
Can YOU read THAT and comprehend it OK with your 'quick reasoning'?
Cheers all!
RC.
.
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Jul 10 2007, 10:15 PM)
Hehehe. Give me 'slow' and 'complete' over 'quickly' and 'incomplete' anytime mate!
Still, for some people 'near enough' is apparently good enough if it gets them through the exams on the 'orthodoxy'.
Some other people 'try harder' even though they don't have to; because in some things, 'near enough' is NOT good enough, Wulf.
Can YOU read THAT and comprehend it OK with your 'quick reasoning'?
A reminder: Insults are NOT 'valid currency' in lieu of actual scientific debate on the point raised.
Cheers all!
RC.
.
That was meant to illustrate a point, not as an insult. Although I imagine it could be percieved that way if you caught your lips moving as you read it.
QUOTE (Wulf+Jul 11 2007, 04:23 AM)
That was meant to illustrate a point, not as an insult. Although I imagine it could be percieved that way if you caught your lips moving as you read it.
Understood, mate! Sorry! I have gone back and removed that 'reminder'..
It would help if you made your points less 'cryptically', mate!hehehe
Can you now elaborate on the point you were trying to illustrate with the relevant sentence? Thanks.
RC.
.
Understood, mate! Sorry! I have gone back and removed that 'reminder'..
It would help if you made your points less 'cryptically', mate!hehehe
Can you now elaborate on the point you were trying to illustrate with the relevant sentence? Thanks.
RC.
.
QUOTE (Wulf+Jul 11 2007, 12:23 AM)
meant to illustrate a point, not as an insult.
You know what is reaaaaaly... point-illustrating?
To develop a ToE with the mathematical equivalent of counting on your fingers. Not that it would ever happen...
You know what is reaaaaaly... point-illustrating?
To develop a ToE with the mathematical equivalent of counting on your fingers. Not that it would ever happen...
One area that seems lacking in mathematics is the exception to polynomial integration (and this appears related to the .9!=1 discussion).
The formula derived by calculus for polynomial integration is http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/intpol.html
integral(ax^n)=(ax^(n+1))/(n+1) + C
Except when n=-1, in which case it becomes:
integral(ax^-1)=a*ln(x) + C
What does this function approach for values of n that differ infinitesimally from n=-1? (Also, the rather arbitrary value for C can be a source of grief in that differentiation isn't entirely reversible without additional information being included)
Another one that deserves better scrutiny is the process of integration and differentiation themselves for fractional values. If we look at a Fourier Transform of a function that's undergone differentiation or integration we find the sinusoidal components have been rotated and filtered by discrete amounts. There are ways of interpolating between these 90 deg rotations that could give an ability to perform fractional integration and differentiation (it would be interesting to trace the evolution of something like an integration of 1/x into a logarithm by changing both the power of x used as well as the fractional integral used).
The formula derived by calculus for polynomial integration is http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/intpol.html
integral(ax^n)=(ax^(n+1))/(n+1) + C
Except when n=-1, in which case it becomes:
integral(ax^-1)=a*ln(x) + C
What does this function approach for values of n that differ infinitesimally from n=-1? (Also, the rather arbitrary value for C can be a source of grief in that differentiation isn't entirely reversible without additional information being included)
Another one that deserves better scrutiny is the process of integration and differentiation themselves for fractional values. If we look at a Fourier Transform of a function that's undergone differentiation or integration we find the sinusoidal components have been rotated and filtered by discrete amounts. There are ways of interpolating between these 90 deg rotations that could give an ability to perform fractional integration and differentiation (it would be interesting to trace the evolution of something like an integration of 1/x into a logarithm by changing both the power of x used as well as the fractional integral used).
QUOTE (IAMoraes+Jul 11 2007, 04:38 AM)
You know what is reaaaaaly... point-illustrating?
To develop a ToE with the mathematical equivalent of counting on your fingers. Not that it would ever happen...

Hehehe. I read your longer post, IAM!
What a 'connection'! hehehe. Good sense of humour; does wonders for the spirit of the discussion, heh!
Thanks for your 'trust'....but don't stop questioning...even ME, mate!
Anyhow, the line does not exist AS DEFINED currently because it is not 'static' etc by virtue of MOTION and PROCESS (in 'spacetime?) in reality.....that is the salient point.
Oh, by the way, IAM, I will soon re-post those TOE thread stage-II questions for newcomers to the special Cosmology Project well before I post my own answer to same...so you will be given ample time to read them and give whatever input you think will 'answer' them!
Cheers!
RC.
.
To develop a ToE with the mathematical equivalent of counting on your fingers. Not that it would ever happen...
Hehehe. I read your longer post, IAM!
What a 'connection'! hehehe. Good sense of humour; does wonders for the spirit of the discussion, heh!
Thanks for your 'trust'....but don't stop questioning...even ME, mate!
Anyhow, the line does not exist AS DEFINED currently because it is not 'static' etc by virtue of MOTION and PROCESS (in 'spacetime?) in reality.....that is the salient point.
Oh, by the way, IAM, I will soon re-post those TOE thread stage-II questions for newcomers to the special Cosmology Project well before I post my own answer to same...so you will be given ample time to read them and give whatever input you think will 'answer' them!
Cheers!
RC.
.
QUOTE (StevenA+Jul 11 2007, 04:47 AM)
One area that seems lacking in mathematics is the exception to polynomial integration (and this appears related to the .9!=1 discussion).
The formula derived by calculus for polynomial integration is http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/intpol.html
integral(ax^n)=(ax^(n+1))/(n+1) + C
Except when n=-1, in which case it becomes:
integral(ax^-1)=a*ln(x) + C
What does this function approach for values of n that differ infinitesimally from n=-1? (Also, the rather arbitrary value for C can be a source of grief in that differentiation isn't entirely reversible without additional information being included)
Another one that deserves better scrutiny is the process of integration and differentiation themselves for fractional values. If we look at a Fourier Transform of a function that's undergone differentiation or integration we find the sinusoidal components have been rotated and filtered by discrete amounts. There are ways of interpolating between these 90 deg rotations that could give an ability to perform fractional integration and differentiation (it would be interesting to trace the evolution of something like an integration of 1/x into a logarithm by changing both the power of x used as well as the fractional integral used).
Hi StevenA! Was that ever raised in the 0.9r = 1 thread?
Perhaps AN, NCN et al can comment on your observations now?
Can you think of any 'contextual' terms/techniques that might 'enhance' those existing techniques/equations?
If not, maybe AlphaNumeric and NCN et al can help in this thread?
Gotta go for the rest of the day, folks. So....play nice!hehehe.
RC.
.
The formula derived by calculus for polynomial integration is http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/intpol.html
integral(ax^n)=(ax^(n+1))/(n+1) + C
Except when n=-1, in which case it becomes:
integral(ax^-1)=a*ln(x) + C
What does this function approach for values of n that differ infinitesimally from n=-1? (Also, the rather arbitrary value for C can be a source of grief in that differentiation isn't entirely reversible without additional information being included)
Another one that deserves better scrutiny is the process of integration and differentiation themselves for fractional values. If we look at a Fourier Transform of a function that's undergone differentiation or integration we find the sinusoidal components have been rotated and filtered by discrete amounts. There are ways of interpolating between these 90 deg rotations that could give an ability to perform fractional integration and differentiation (it would be interesting to trace the evolution of something like an integration of 1/x into a logarithm by changing both the power of x used as well as the fractional integral used).
Hi StevenA! Was that ever raised in the 0.9r = 1 thread?
Perhaps AN, NCN et al can comment on your observations now?
Can you think of any 'contextual' terms/techniques that might 'enhance' those existing techniques/equations?
If not, maybe AlphaNumeric and NCN et al can help in this thread?
Gotta go for the rest of the day, folks. So....play nice!hehehe.
RC.
.
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Jul 11 2007, 12:54 AM)
line does not exist AS DEFINED currently because it is not 'static' etc by virtue of MOTION and PROCESS (in 'spacetime?) in reality
Point taken. However, it doesn't exist because it doesn't have an address in space -it does, you just point at it-- but because it doesn't have an address in time. We don't know how to address time's infinity.
Point taken. However, it doesn't exist because it doesn't have an address in space -it does, you just point at it-- but because it doesn't have an address in time. We don't know how to address time's infinity.
QUOTE (IAMoraes+Jul 11 2007, 05:34 AM)
Point taken. However, it doesn't exist because it doesn't have an address in space -it does, you just point at it-- but because it doesn't have an address in time. We don't know how to address time's infinity.
Well spotted, IAM!
That is one of the aims of 'contextual' equations/analyses in reality....to make it POSSIBLE to handle NOT JUST 'infinities/singularities' (be these 'time' or' length/distance', mass etc) but also the WIDER IMPLICATIONS associated with ANY 'line construct' under 'mathematical/physical' study/system analysis regarding its 'numerical/real' or 'other' PROPERTIES.
In particular, we especially NEED to find some way of IDENTIFYING/QUANTIFYING all sorts of currently 'undefined/weird' results; and somehow EQUIP OUR EQUATIONS so that they may ' better inform' us about NOT ONLY the RATE OF CHANGE to/from such 'infinities/singularities'...but to hopefully also 'indicate/tell' WHERE AND IN WHAT 'PHYSICAL' STATES those infinities etc actually 'LIE' within the overall 'layer' and 'fundamental sublayer' CONTEXT in physical reality system PROCESSES/DYNAMICS.
Good work in highlighting that aspect, IAM!
See y'all tomorrow!
RC.
.
Well spotted, IAM!
That is one of the aims of 'contextual' equations/analyses in reality....to make it POSSIBLE to handle NOT JUST 'infinities/singularities' (be these 'time' or' length/distance', mass etc) but also the WIDER IMPLICATIONS associated with ANY 'line construct' under 'mathematical/physical' study/system analysis regarding its 'numerical/real' or 'other' PROPERTIES.
In particular, we especially NEED to find some way of IDENTIFYING/QUANTIFYING all sorts of currently 'undefined/weird' results; and somehow EQUIP OUR EQUATIONS so that they may ' better inform' us about NOT ONLY the RATE OF CHANGE to/from such 'infinities/singularities'...but to hopefully also 'indicate/tell' WHERE AND IN WHAT 'PHYSICAL' STATES those infinities etc actually 'LIE' within the overall 'layer' and 'fundamental sublayer' CONTEXT in physical reality system PROCESSES/DYNAMICS.
Good work in highlighting that aspect, IAM!
See y'all tomorrow!
RC.
.
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Jul 11 2007, 05:09 AM)
Hi StevenA! Was that ever raised in the 0.9r = 1 thread?
Perhaps AN, NCN et al can comment on your observations now?
Can you think of any 'contextual' terms/techniques that might 'enhance' those existing techniques/equations?
If not, maybe AlphaNumeric and NCN et al can help in this thread?
Gotta go for the rest of the day, folks. So....play nice!hehehe.
RC.
.
I believe I've made some comments along similar lines in that thread though likely not as directly about those specific discontinuities.
In terms of useful enhancements to integration and differentiation, I'd say an obvious one would be in frequency domain operations - like generating novel filter responses or Laplace transforms.
There's a stong disconnect between linear (additive) and exponential/logarithmic (multiplicative, which is linear on a logarithmic scale but this creates a 2 dimensional plane of values for numbers that has irreducible prime features) operations. Each is non-linear relative to the other and transformations between are the fundamental cause of complexity and we see this inherent in calculus as well. If we can remove this discontinuity then multiplication and addition could potentially be replaced by a single non-linear operation (my guess is we can take some clues from quantum mechanics here and use statistical values that represent both a number and a process simultaneous, much like irrational numbers, pi, e and .9r represent processes and not a specific numbers though they have arbitrarily accurate numeric approximations associated with them ... you could possibly unify data and algorithms by having each value represent both a range of numerical values as well as a range of algorithmic processes that both have statistical ranges and then you could swap numeric accuracy for computational efficiency just like you can compute pi to a variable number of digits ... you'd just be performing symbolic manipulation and expanding the result until the desired statistical reliability was achieved for a result ... sounds funky but it should be possible. There are already known algorithms that are stochastic and are faster than any known deterministic alternatives ... the price, as is seen physically in quantum mechanics, is that you can't ever be certain the result is 100% correct, but then again any computer running Windows isn't guaranteed to be 100% functional anyway
As a simple example, take phi, the golden ratio. It's a simple ratio to generate and associated with many symbolic processes. If you avoid a numeric representation and instead retain an exact symbolic process (from a range of functionally identical processes) then theoretically you could calculate phi to any desired accuracy. But realistically we know we're only going to need to work with phi to some limited accuracy in the first place, so that also implies we don't need to use a process that generates phi exactly either. We could use an approximate process that generates an approximate result. So let's say we had some number like 1.617 (not exactly phi) and we wanted to efficiently multiply by this value approximately. If you iterate a fibonacci expansion for a limited number of terms you can find a value that's very close to 1.617 instead of phi. This could be seen as a tradeoff between numerical accuracy and computational efficiency (an extremely realistic form of tradeoff for real world computations). You could see this similar to physical particles with gaussian fields interacting with something similar to the Uncertainty Principle - each value is both a number and a process with probabilistic fields of interaction (though you can increase your equivalent sample size, or in this case computational resources, and generate an arbitrarily precise result given enough time).
I know most people won't recognize what the significance of this would be but you can go down the list of computational methods and find the same underlying problem of a two tiered system of representation and non-linear relationships between the two - AND-OR arrays in boolean or digital logic, sum of product terms in matrix multiplication, particle/wave duality in physics, or time/frequency domain operations and addition and multiplication giving rise to irreducibly prime relationships in mathematics. A single unified non-linear operation could allow for these two realms to be unified (and I believe gaussian/probabilistic fields are the key ... gaussians are transform invariant under Fourier and Lapace transforms, and as I showed even the code/data paradigm used in typical algorithms could be unifiable)
QUOTE (StevenA+Jul 11 2007, 05:47 AM)
The formula derived by calculus for polynomial integration is http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/intpol.html
integral(ax^n)=(ax^(n+1))/(n+1) + C
Except when n=-1, in which case it becomes:
integral(ax^-1)=a*ln(x) + C
What does this function approach for values of n that differ infinitesimally from n=-1? (Also, the rather arbitrary value for C can be a source of grief in that differentiation isn't entirely reversible without additional information being included)
Do you not think anyone has noticed that before? It's fairly straight forward to see why when you consider what functions tend to at their limits of 0 and infinity and how you'd expect to be able to bound discrete summations.
Int ( x^n ) is (x^n+1)/(n+1) except at n=-1 because that is the cross over point. For n<-1, the function's decay rate is high enough to give a convergence integral. For n>=-1, it's not.
Radii of convergence, regions of convergence, Stokes lines, discontinuities, Riemann-Hilbert Problems. These are all tools developed to investigate such things.
You say "We should be investigating these things!" when we have! Those things I just mentioned are all over 100 years old! But you continue to work on the notion of "If I don't know it, it doesn't exist".
This thread is just another illustration of how cranks and nuts rather than hours giving excuses about why they haven't spent minutes reading books. But avoiding work is more enjoyable than doing work, right?
integral(ax^n)=(ax^(n+1))/(n+1) + C
Except when n=-1, in which case it becomes:
integral(ax^-1)=a*ln(x) + C
What does this function approach for values of n that differ infinitesimally from n=-1? (Also, the rather arbitrary value for C can be a source of grief in that differentiation isn't entirely reversible without additional information being included)
Do you not think anyone has noticed that before? It's fairly straight forward to see why when you consider what functions tend to at their limits of 0 and infinity and how you'd expect to be able to bound discrete summations.
Int ( x^n ) is (x^n+1)/(n+1) except at n=-1 because that is the cross over point. For n<-1, the function's decay rate is high enough to give a convergence integral. For n>=-1, it's not.
Radii of convergence, regions of convergence, Stokes lines, discontinuities, Riemann-Hilbert Problems. These are all tools developed to investigate such things.
You say "We should be investigating these things!" when we have! Those things I just mentioned are all over 100 years old! But you continue to work on the notion of "If I don't know it, it doesn't exist".
This thread is just another illustration of how cranks and nuts rather than hours giving excuses about why they haven't spent minutes reading books. But avoiding work is more enjoyable than doing work, right?
I am not knowledgeable so much about mathematics as self-evident independent of any world but i do have some questions in regard to reality. Linear anything seems to describe only few percent of reality. And linear is what we like to model with. Be it linear progression or amplification...Keep it simple cause reality is simple. I don't believe anymore that reality is simple. Its beyond weirdest. I always find it hard to believe that any mathematical construct actually describes reality as it is. I do however believe in approximations. The question is of course why do approximations work so accurately. This is the main trick. What is accurately enough not to be questioned by us anymore? For example -it works and thats it. Why all these new theories then? Any exception proves that model is not absolutely correct. In describing reality you have to be precise down to the last bit. And it seems there is nothing to get a hold of in quantum realms except approximations.
You cannot just neglect things when considering reality. For example the sensitivity of "macro appearance" on "stability" of micro world is so large that not a single event can be neglected. But who would find that worth pursuing? We cannot even predict weather patterns few days ahead correctly. Its an approximation. Butterfly effect still rules the planet and like followers of god there are followers of "final order". Its very much history repeating in every aspect of our knowledge. You have practical mathematicians, religious mathematicians...Difference between them could be that religious ask why and practical ask how. Skeptics don't go into either direction, they question everything and are concluding there is nothing for them except something which is undefinable. And finally it doesn't make a difference who is right or wrong. What everybody seeked was just the truth and nothing else. It is a group effort basically. Everyone builds on previous and so on. Imagine everybody starting from beginning by themselves. Seeking of truth whatever it is, is a group effort. It shouldn't get personal whatsoever. If it gets personal then we have unnecessary complexity which slows down the effort. There is no hurry and we got plenty of time. We have to be sure we didn't miss anything out. There is only one way and its not individualism. It is however interesting that in meaningless reality or religious one things stay the same. Everybody is equally meaningless or equally meaningful in front of the truth.
You cannot just neglect things when considering reality. For example the sensitivity of "macro appearance" on "stability" of micro world is so large that not a single event can be neglected. But who would find that worth pursuing? We cannot even predict weather patterns few days ahead correctly. Its an approximation. Butterfly effect still rules the planet and like followers of god there are followers of "final order". Its very much history repeating in every aspect of our knowledge. You have practical mathematicians, religious mathematicians...Difference between them could be that religious ask why and practical ask how. Skeptics don't go into either direction, they question everything and are concluding there is nothing for them except something which is undefinable. And finally it doesn't make a difference who is right or wrong. What everybody seeked was just the truth and nothing else. It is a group effort basically. Everyone builds on previous and so on. Imagine everybody starting from beginning by themselves. Seeking of truth whatever it is, is a group effort. It shouldn't get personal whatsoever. If it gets personal then we have unnecessary complexity which slows down the effort. There is no hurry and we got plenty of time. We have to be sure we didn't miss anything out. There is only one way and its not individualism. It is however interesting that in meaningless reality or religious one things stay the same. Everybody is equally meaningless or equally meaningful in front of the truth.
Hi all,
Welcome back RC; I hope your health remains strong!
StevenA Posted on Today at 6:28 AM
There's a stong disconnect between linear (additive) and exponential/logarithmic (multiplicative, which is linear on a logarithmic scale but this creates a 2 dimensional plane of values for numbers that has irreducible prime features) operations. Each is non-linear relative to the other and transformations between are the fundamental cause of complexity and we see this inherent in calculus as well. If we can remove this discontinuity then multiplication and addition could potentially be replaced by a single non-linear operation (my guess is we can take some clues from quantum mechanics here and use statistical values that represent both a number and a process simultaneous, much like irrational numbers, pi, e and .9r represent processes and not a specific numbers though they have arbitrarily accurate numeric approximations associated with them ...
There's nothing like measuring a "rate with a rate". We come up with "infinities/singularities" because of our style of approach. As Majkl mentioned, we prefer to deal with "linear" representations, of part of a non-linear phenomenon.
When you do this "piece-meal", you have broken a chain, and you are measuring something "as if" it were a "new One". This compartmentalization works with "logic", but not so well with a "physical" math. When you create a new "One", you shift the "zero point" as well. I'm not trying to be cryptic here; I am just saying that "ground states" of energy should NOT all have their own separate "existence", and start from "zero". We need the common background term, from which to establish/quantify a relative "zero-point field".
Well, that goes in the other direction as well. Think about statistics, and large numbers. I believe (if I remember right), that about "8 digits out" gives us a "fuzzy" approximation, because it CAN NOT be "accurate" to an arbitrary number of digits.
This worked well for Planck, and has been leading in a "fuzzy" way ever since. There is NO other reason that h has any meaning, or functionality in QM. When you give an "answer" that has -34 digits, and you are only working with "12 digit accuracy", you don't see the difference. Right answers; wrong reasons.
In the world of "inverse" symmetry, you can't measure an integer with an integer. Right now, we just deal with the irrationals in a "limited" sense. If we start with an integer, we get an irrational anyway.
IE. take any visible frequency, divide by c , and you get an irrational wavelength.
Can anyone "approximate" what the wavelength would be, WITHOUT using our "constant" of c ? In other words, actually perform TWO measurements independently, whose product = c , without "seeding" the logic by using the answer ahead of time.
This is the value of my "system".
regards,
T.Roc
Welcome back RC; I hope your health remains strong!
QUOTE
RealityCheck Posted on Today at 5:53 AM
In particular, we especially NEED to find some way of IDENTIFYING/QUANTIFYING all sorts of currently 'undefined/weird' results; and somehow EQUIP OUR EQUATIONS so that they may ' better inform' us about NOT ONLY the RATE OF CHANGE to/from such 'infinities/singularities' ..
In particular, we especially NEED to find some way of IDENTIFYING/QUANTIFYING all sorts of currently 'undefined/weird' results; and somehow EQUIP OUR EQUATIONS so that they may ' better inform' us about NOT ONLY the RATE OF CHANGE to/from such 'infinities/singularities' ..
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| RealityCheck Posted on Today at 5:53 AM In particular, we especially NEED to find some way of IDENTIFYING/QUANTIFYING all sorts of currently 'undefined/weird' results; and somehow EQUIP OUR EQUATIONS so that they may ' better inform' us about NOT ONLY the RATE OF CHANGE to/from such 'infinities/singularities' .. |
StevenA Posted on Today at 6:28 AM
There's a stong disconnect between linear (additive) and exponential/logarithmic (multiplicative, which is linear on a logarithmic scale but this creates a 2 dimensional plane of values for numbers that has irreducible prime features) operations. Each is non-linear relative to the other and transformations between are the fundamental cause of complexity and we see this inherent in calculus as well. If we can remove this discontinuity then multiplication and addition could potentially be replaced by a single non-linear operation (my guess is we can take some clues from quantum mechanics here and use statistical values that represent both a number and a process simultaneous, much like irrational numbers, pi, e and .9r represent processes and not a specific numbers though they have arbitrarily accurate numeric approximations associated with them ...
There's nothing like measuring a "rate with a rate". We come up with "infinities/singularities" because of our style of approach. As Majkl mentioned, we prefer to deal with "linear" representations, of part of a non-linear phenomenon.
When you do this "piece-meal", you have broken a chain, and you are measuring something "as if" it were a "new One". This compartmentalization works with "logic", but not so well with a "physical" math. When you create a new "One", you shift the "zero point" as well. I'm not trying to be cryptic here; I am just saying that "ground states" of energy should NOT all have their own separate "existence", and start from "zero". We need the common background term, from which to establish/quantify a relative "zero-point field".
QUOTE
StevenA Posted on Today at 6:28 AM
But realistically we know we're only going to need to work with phi to some limited accuracy in the first place, so that also implies we don't need to use a process that generates phi exactly either. We could use an approximate process that generates an approximate result.
But realistically we know we're only going to need to work with phi to some limited accuracy in the first place, so that also implies we don't need to use a process that generates phi exactly either. We could use an approximate process that generates an approximate result.
Well, that goes in the other direction as well. Think about statistics, and large numbers. I believe (if I remember right), that about "8 digits out" gives us a "fuzzy" approximation, because it CAN NOT be "accurate" to an arbitrary number of digits.
This worked well for Planck, and has been leading in a "fuzzy" way ever since. There is NO other reason that h has any meaning, or functionality in QM. When you give an "answer" that has -34 digits, and you are only working with "12 digit accuracy", you don't see the difference. Right answers; wrong reasons.
In the world of "inverse" symmetry, you can't measure an integer with an integer. Right now, we just deal with the irrationals in a "limited" sense. If we start with an integer, we get an irrational anyway.
IE. take any visible frequency, divide by c , and you get an irrational wavelength.
Can anyone "approximate" what the wavelength would be, WITHOUT using our "constant" of c ? In other words, actually perform TWO measurements independently, whose product = c , without "seeding" the logic by using the answer ahead of time.
This is the value of my "system".
regards,
T.Roc
QUOTE (TRoc+Jul 11 2007, 08:59 AM)
... without "seeding" the logic by using the answer ahead of time.
I can't seem to get this point across to certain people. It's like getting from 1 to 0 or vice versa, without knowing the other ahead of time. It can't be done. It doesn't seem important to them.
If you're headed in a direction and don't know the destination, how can you even begin? Every step will be the same step and not one of them will get you there, because you don't know where "there" is. Well, I suppose you could say you could begin by taking one step, but there's no way to calculate the step. Technically, you'd stay right where you are.
Everything actually stays right where it is, but we're always seeing the answer ahead of time, and the answer isn't actually the answer.
I never leave the house when I drive to the store, but I keep up my car insurance anyway.
I can't seem to get this point across to certain people. It's like getting from 1 to 0 or vice versa, without knowing the other ahead of time. It can't be done. It doesn't seem important to them.
If you're headed in a direction and don't know the destination, how can you even begin? Every step will be the same step and not one of them will get you there, because you don't know where "there" is. Well, I suppose you could say you could begin by taking one step, but there's no way to calculate the step. Technically, you'd stay right where you are.
Everything actually stays right where it is, but we're always seeing the answer ahead of time, and the answer isn't actually the answer.
I never leave the house when I drive to the store, but I keep up my car insurance anyway.
QUOTE (TRoc+Jul 11 2007, 11:59 AM)
There's nothing like measuring a "rate with a rate". We come up with "infinities/singularities" because of our style of approach. As Majkl mentioned, we prefer to deal with "linear" representations, of part of a non-linear phenomenon.
When you do this "piece-meal", you have broken a chain, and you are measuring something "as if" it were a "new One". This compartmentalization works with "logic", but not so well with a "physical" math. When you create a new "One", you shift the "zero point" as well. I'm not trying to be cryptic here; I am just saying that "ground states" of energy should NOT all have their own separate "existence", and start from "zero". We need the common background term, from which to establish/quantify a relative "zero-point field".
You can't simultaneously want the ground state of "energy" to be zero and not explain where the future energy is going to come from.
However, since you are measuring a "rate with a rate", and since Steven mentioned phi, and since phi is directly related to a spiral, and since you need a new "one" that works well with logic and physical reality...
... then you can't treat each new "one" as an entity without an angle.
The easiest way to do that would be, say, to give an angle of zero to (x+y), then another to (x*y) by adding either 90 or 45 degrees to the equation, then another to (x to the y'th), by adding either another 90 or 22 1/2 degrees. (to the descriptions! Not to the equation's inputs and outputs. Otherwise the established/quantified "zero-point field" would be input/output (i.e., data) and not establishing nor quantifying much.)
By the time the ground state of "energy" gets to be "zero" all the "energy" will have migrated to its own description. That is why everyone wants a tiny little equation that will explain the universe.
This is faking it, of course. Only a number to the power of infinity actually turns 90 degrees. But it may provide more of a smooth transition between straight lines and curved lines:
The formula derived by calculus for polynomial integration is http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/intpol.html
integral(ax^n)=(ax^(n+1))/(n+1) + C
Except when n=-1, in which case it becomes:
integral(ax^-1)=a*ln(x) + C
What does this function approach for values of n that differ infinitesimally from n=-1? (Also, the rather arbitrary value for C can be a source of grief in that differentiation isn't entirely reversible without additional information being included)
As soon as I learn what an integral is you will hear the fireworks, the loud music, the beer pops, the urps and burps
Meanwhile, an integral is procedurally -thus mathematically- wrong if each one of their iterations doesn't take into consideration the computational angle of the equation itself.
The "equations themselves", being descriptions, are stored in space and matter, thus they turn in time. A "rate with a rate" equation can only describe matter in movement by being a fractal part, an infinitesimal part, of that which it describes: the description is part of the *mass* of that which is described.
When you do this "piece-meal", you have broken a chain, and you are measuring something "as if" it were a "new One". This compartmentalization works with "logic", but not so well with a "physical" math. When you create a new "One", you shift the "zero point" as well. I'm not trying to be cryptic here; I am just saying that "ground states" of energy should NOT all have their own separate "existence", and start from "zero". We need the common background term, from which to establish/quantify a relative "zero-point field".
You can't simultaneously want the ground state of "energy" to be zero and not explain where the future energy is going to come from.
However, since you are measuring a "rate with a rate", and since Steven mentioned phi, and since phi is directly related to a spiral, and since you need a new "one" that works well with logic and physical reality...
... then you can't treat each new "one" as an entity without an angle.
The easiest way to do that would be, say, to give an angle of zero to (x+y), then another to (x*y) by adding either 90 or 45 degrees to the equation, then another to (x to the y'th), by adding either another 90 or 22 1/2 degrees. (to the descriptions! Not to the equation's inputs and outputs. Otherwise the established/quantified "zero-point field" would be input/output (i.e., data) and not establishing nor quantifying much.)
By the time the ground state of "energy" gets to be "zero" all the "energy" will have migrated to its own description. That is why everyone wants a tiny little equation that will explain the universe.
This is faking it, of course. Only a number to the power of infinity actually turns 90 degrees. But it may provide more of a smooth transition between straight lines and curved lines:
QUOTE (StevenA @ Jul 11 2007+ 05:47 AM)
The formula derived by calculus for polynomial integration is http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/intpol.html
integral(ax^n)=(ax^(n+1))/(n+1) + C
Except when n=-1, in which case it becomes:
integral(ax^-1)=a*ln(x) + C
What does this function approach for values of n that differ infinitesimally from n=-1? (Also, the rather arbitrary value for C can be a source of grief in that differentiation isn't entirely reversible without additional information being included)
As soon as I learn what an integral is you will hear the fireworks, the loud music, the beer pops, the urps and burps
Meanwhile, an integral is procedurally -thus mathematically- wrong if each one of their iterations doesn't take into consideration the computational angle of the equation itself.
The "equations themselves", being descriptions, are stored in space and matter, thus they turn in time. A "rate with a rate" equation can only describe matter in movement by being a fractal part, an infinitesimal part, of that which it describes: the description is part of the *mass* of that which is described.
.
Hi AlphaNumeric!
Regarding yours and others “current axiomatic understandings” that view zero as “a real number” and as “the only infinitessimal” etc. etc, as indicated in following abstract of one of posts your in the “Simple Proof That .9r!=1” thread.....
Hi AlphaNumeric!
Regarding yours and others “current axiomatic understandings” that view zero as “a real number” and as “the only infinitessimal” etc. etc, as indicated in following abstract of one of posts your in the “Simple Proof That .9r!=1” thread.....
QUOTE (AlphaNumeric to StevenA+Jan 15 2008, 07:24 AM)
...
...
"An arbitrarily small Real number" equates to an infinitesimal. It doesn't. It's still a Real number. Infinitesimals aren't. They are defined to be smaller than any Real number. So by definition you cannot construct them from Reals because any number you construct from Reals is a Real number!
I would very much like and appreciate your and others input to a certain conversation between myself and NoCleverName on this aspect of 'zero' in the “Point Nine Recurring Equals One (or not)” Thread.
For the time being I’d like everyone to bring in and treat ONLY those aspects relevant to the CURRENT Axioms and consistent definitions from those axioms as to ZERO supposedly being “a rational number” and "only infinitesimal" etc.
The series of exchanges in my relevant conversation with NoCleverName began with the quote immediately below. Please, BEFORE participating, and in order to avoid the usual misunderstandings and knee-jerk reactions and distracting 'sideshows/feuds' already afflicting many otherwise illuminating discussions in too many other topics/threads, I would ask all intending participants in THIS present discussion to first PLEASE read carefully and properly comprehend the CRUX of THIS particular conversation, and only then restrict as much as possible your (constructive) inputs to addressing ONLY the requested AXIOMATIX and DEFINITIONAL aspects regarding ZERO’s CURRENT TREATMENT as “ a rational number”.
Here goes with my relevant conversation so far with NoCleverName:
...
"An arbitrarily small Real number" equates to an infinitesimal. It doesn't. It's still a Real number. Infinitesimals aren't. They are defined to be smaller than any Real number. So by definition you cannot construct them from Reals because any number you construct from Reals is a Real number!
I would very much like and appreciate your and others input to a certain conversation between myself and NoCleverName on this aspect of 'zero' in the “Point Nine Recurring Equals One (or not)” Thread.
For the time being I’d like everyone to bring in and treat ONLY those aspects relevant to the CURRENT Axioms and consistent definitions from those axioms as to ZERO supposedly being “a rational number” and "only infinitesimal" etc.
The series of exchanges in my relevant conversation with NoCleverName began with the quote immediately below. Please, BEFORE participating, and in order to avoid the usual misunderstandings and knee-jerk reactions and distracting 'sideshows/feuds' already afflicting many otherwise illuminating discussions in too many other topics/threads, I would ask all intending participants in THIS present discussion to first PLEASE read carefully and properly comprehend the CRUX of THIS particular conversation, and only then restrict as much as possible your (constructive) inputs to addressing ONLY the requested AXIOMATIX and DEFINITIONAL aspects regarding ZERO’s CURRENT TREATMENT as “ a rational number”.
Here goes with my relevant conversation so far with NoCleverName:
QUOTE (NoCleverName to NeoDevin+Jan 10 2008, 06:18 PM)
...
....I claim it is a rational number (in this case zero).
Hi guys.
Just curious. If "0" is not ON the "abstract number" LINE construct, then how can it BE a "number" per se rather than a mere symbol for the number STRING notation convention indicating "absence of number" in a position IN a "notational STRING" rather than ON the "number LINE"?
Cheers.
RC.
.
....I claim it is a rational number (in this case zero).
QUOTE (RealityCheck to NoCleverName AND NeoDevin+Jan 11 2008, 12:09 AM)
Hi guys.
Just curious. If "0" is not ON the "abstract number" LINE construct, then how can it BE a "number" per se rather than a mere symbol for the number STRING notation convention indicating "absence of number" in a position IN a "notational STRING" rather than ON the "number LINE"?
Cheers.
RC.
.
QUOTE (NoCleverName to me+Jan 11 2008, 12:37 AM)
Of course zero is on the number line. This isn't even worth the time to argue about.
"Real"ly? hehehe.
Then why is it 'undefined' when using that 'number' as in 0/0?
Obviously some 'axiomatic ad hocness' is required to 'bring' the "0" onto ANY number line as a UNIQUE and DEFINED 'number' which then unfortunately STILL behaves/results as UNDEFINED in operations using that ad hocly 'defined' number '0'.
I like discussing it. Perhaps you don't consider it worthy of doing so. Sigh. Never mind. There are plenty of others who do. hehehe.
Left to, itself, "0" would not BE a number at all....let alone on any number line UNIQUELY DEFINED in all cases.
It would be valid as a symbolic placeholder (in a number STRING) and also as a BOUNDARY CONDITION/VALUE real-point/number TRANSITION/BRIDGING state/value between CONTRA-BALANCED 'lines'/continuums/actions etc.
Cheers for a while until I get back to these main forum discussions once more!
RC.
.
QUOTE (RealityCheck to NCN+Jan 11 2008, 02:15 AM)
"Real"ly? hehehe.
Then why is it 'undefined' when using that 'number' as in 0/0?
Obviously some 'axiomatic ad hocness' is required to 'bring' the "0" onto ANY number line as a UNIQUE and DEFINED 'number' which then unfortunately STILL behaves/results as UNDEFINED in operations using that ad hocly 'defined' number '0'.
I like discussing it. Perhaps you don't consider it worthy of doing so. Sigh. Never mind. There are plenty of others who do. hehehe.
Left to, itself, "0" would not BE a number at all....let alone on any number line UNIQUELY DEFINED in all cases.
It would be valid as a symbolic placeholder (in a number STRING) and also as a BOUNDARY CONDITION/VALUE real-point/number TRANSITION/BRIDGING state/value between CONTRA-BALANCED 'lines'/continuums/actions etc.
Cheers for a while until I get back to these main forum discussions once more!
RC.
.
QUOTE (NoCleverName to me+Jan 11 2008, 02:20 AM)
The only reason why 0 is mentioned is to define the concept of "starting point". Without "starting point" it isn't obvious how to measure anything, is it? Do not try to embellish such a simple concept with philosophical claptrap.
Hi again, NCN!
BTW, I just added to my last post for the sake of completeness etc.
And yeah, I understand what you say about needing a 'staring point' from which all else 'springs'.
BUT what IS the 'nature' of that staring point in reality/abstract?
It is a BOUNDARY CONDITION/STATE in a NON-EXISTENT/DISCONTINUOUS "OUTSIDE" of the 'continuum' under study....and/OR it actually IS some FIRST non-ZERO point for TWO OR MORE 'interconnecting continuums' that have NO 'outside' discontinuities' conveniently IGNORED by axiomatic elimination, hehehe.
Anyhow, a starting point is NOT the FIRST POINT unless it IS A POINT that is consistent with the behaviour of all other points on the line....and then we come to the UNDEFINED 0/0...and we see that YOUR idea of '0' is neither a starting POINT (since the next-lower 'point' is NOT ON the 'line')....OR it is ON the line and IS NOT ACTUALLY 'ZERO' as you treat it.
That is the DICHOTOMY that is introduced by the existing 'starting point' AXIOM using the NEBULOUS '0' concept/number as you do. It's OK for while you remain within ythe current AXIOMATIC BOUNADIES...but it cannot be used INDEPENDENTLY IN ALL CASES OUTSIDE THAT CONVENIENTLY axiomatically=bounded construct.
Tha's all I'm pointing out...and trying to explore the implications/consequences 'contextually' in a way that SIDESTEPS THE NECESSITY for axiomatic ad hocness in order to avoid inconsistencies within the currently 'defined' system.
I and others are working OUTSIDE current cinstructs....that is the whole point of these discussions, I think.
I and others ENJOY 'mucking about'....who knows what SERENDIPITY will bring from the most 'unlikely' DABBLER in the 'unknown', hehehe.
Nothing personal in our 'dabbling' and 'babbling', hehehe. So no hard feelings all round, I hope!
Cheers again!
RC.
.
QUOTE (RealityCheck to NCN+Jan 11 2008, 02:36 AM)
Hi again, NCN!
BTW, I just added to my last post for the sake of completeness etc.
And yeah, I understand what you say about needing a 'staring point' from which all else 'springs'.
BUT what IS the 'nature' of that staring point in reality/abstract?
It is a BOUNDARY CONDITION/STATE in a NON-EXISTENT/DISCONTINUOUS "OUTSIDE" of the 'continuum' under study....and/OR it actually IS some FIRST non-ZERO point for TWO OR MORE 'interconnecting continuums' that have NO 'outside' discontinuities' conveniently IGNORED by axiomatic elimination, hehehe.
Anyhow, a starting point is NOT the FIRST POINT unless it IS A POINT that is consistent with the behaviour of all other points on the line....and then we come to the UNDEFINED 0/0...and we see that YOUR idea of '0' is neither a starting POINT (since the next-lower 'point' is NOT ON the 'line')....OR it is ON the line and IS NOT ACTUALLY 'ZERO' as you treat it.
That is the DICHOTOMY that is introduced by the existing 'starting point' AXIOM using the NEBULOUS '0' concept/number as you do. It's OK for while you remain within ythe current AXIOMATIC BOUNADIES...but it cannot be used INDEPENDENTLY IN ALL CASES OUTSIDE THAT CONVENIENTLY axiomatically=bounded construct.
Tha's all I'm pointing out...and trying to explore the implications/consequences 'contextually' in a way that SIDESTEPS THE NECESSITY for axiomatic ad hocness in order to avoid inconsistencies within the currently 'defined' system.
I and others are working OUTSIDE current cinstructs....that is the whole point of these discussions, I think.
I and others ENJOY 'mucking about'....who knows what SERENDIPITY will bring from the most 'unlikely' DABBLER in the 'unknown', hehehe.
Nothing personal in our 'dabbling' and 'babbling', hehehe. So no hard feelings all round, I hope!
Cheers again!
RC.
.
QUOTE (NoCleverName to me+Jan 11 2008, 02:40 AM)
Zero. It's just a simple, innocent starting point. "Nothing" more, "nothing" less. 
Hi again, NCN!
BTW, I just added to my last post for the sake of completeness etc.
And yeah, I understand what you say about needing a 'statring point' from which all else 'springs'.
BUT what IS the 'nature' of that starting point in reality/abstract?
It is a BOUNDARY CONDITION/STATE in a NON-EXISTENT/DISCONTINUOUS "OUTSIDE" of the 'continuum' under study....and/OR it actually IS some FIRST non-ZERO point for TWO OR MORE 'interconnecting continuums' that have NO 'outside' discontinuities' conveniently IGNORED by axiomatic elimination, hehehe.
Anyhow, a starting point is NOT the FIRST POINT unless it IS A POINT that is consistent with the behaviour of all other points on the line....and then we come to the UNDEFINED 0/0...and we see that YOUR idea of '0' is neither a starting POINT (since the next-lower 'point' is NOT ON the 'line')....OR it is ON the line and IS NOT ACTUALLY 'ZERO' as you treat it.
That is the DICHOTOMY that is introduced by the existing 'starting point' AXIOM using the NEBULOUS '0' concept/number as you do. It's OK for while you remain within ythe current AXIOMATIC BOUNADIES...but it cannot be used INDEPENDENTLY IN ALL CASES OUTSIDE THAT CONVENIENTLY axiomatically=bounded construct.
Tha's all I'm pointing out...and trying to explore the implications/consequences 'contextually' in a way that SIDESTEPS THE NECESSITY for axiomatic ad hocness in order to avoid inconsistencies within the currently 'defined' system.
I and others are working OUTSIDE current cinstructs....that is the whole point of these discussions, I think.
I and others ENJOY 'mucking about'....who knows what SERENDIPITY will bring from the most 'unlikely' DABBLER in the 'unknown', hehehe.
Nothing personal in our 'dabbling' and 'babbling', hehehe. So no hard feelings all round, I hope!
Cheers again!
RC.
.
QUOTE (RealityCheck to NCN+Jan 11 2008, 02:36 AM)
Hi again, NCN!
BTW, I just added to my last post for the sake of completeness etc.
And yeah, I understand what you say about needing a 'statring point' from which all else 'springs'.
BUT what IS the 'nature' of that starting point in reality/abstract?
It is a BOUNDARY CONDITION/STATE in a NON-EXISTENT/DISCONTINUOUS "OUTSIDE" of the 'continuum' under study....and/OR it actually IS some FIRST non-ZERO point for TWO OR MORE 'interconnecting continuums' that have NO 'outside' discontinuities' conveniently IGNORED by axiomatic elimination, hehehe.
Anyhow, a starting point is NOT the FIRST POINT unless it IS A POINT that is consistent with the behaviour of all other points on the line....and then we come to the UNDEFINED 0/0...and we see that YOUR idea of '0' is neither a starting POINT (since the next-lower 'point' is NOT ON the 'line')....OR it is ON the line and IS NOT ACTUALLY 'ZERO' as you treat it.
That is the DICHOTOMY that is introduced by the existing 'starting point' AXIOM using the NEBULOUS '0' concept/number as you do. It's OK for while you remain within ythe current AXIOMATIC BOUNADIES...but it cannot be used INDEPENDENTLY IN ALL CASES OUTSIDE THAT CONVENIENTLY axiomatically=bounded construct.
Tha's all I'm pointing out...and trying to explore the implications/consequences 'contextually' in a way that SIDESTEPS THE NECESSITY for axiomatic ad hocness in order to avoid inconsistencies within the currently 'defined' system.
I and others are working OUTSIDE current cinstructs....that is the whole point of these discussions, I think.
I and others ENJOY 'mucking about'....who knows what SERENDIPITY will bring from the most 'unlikely' DABBLER in the 'unknown', hehehe.
Nothing personal in our 'dabbling' and 'babbling', hehehe. So no hard feelings all round, I hope!
Cheers again!
RC.
.
QUOTE (NoCleverName to me +Jan 11 2008, 02:40 AM)
Zero. It's just a simple, innocent starting point. "Nothing" more, "nothing" less. 
Think about what you just said.
If zero is a starting point that 'exists', then it is the GROUND STATE 'point' from which you RELATIVELY go on to construct/measure things form as the ORIGIN STATE/POINT.
In which case you are IPSO FACTO treating ZERO and the whole NUMBER LINE 'relatively' to begin with.
So there is NO ABSOLUTE starting point that is NOTHING....rather it is the FIRST SOMETHING/NUMBER that you AXIOMATICALLY relegated to 'nothingness' simply because of a RELATIVITY AD HOC 'definition' for STARTING POINT.
In which case, if zero IS merely a starting GROUND STATE VALUE 'someting', then 0/0 would BE "1" in the same 'AXIOMATIC RELATIVITY LINE CONSTRUCT/MANIPULATIONS.
That is, relative nothing "ground state something" starting value/point divided by another axiomatically identical relative nothing "ground state something" starting value/point, would be a "starting something" divided by a "starting something"...which would be "1"....and NOT 'undefined'.
See?
If "0" IS something relegated RELATIVELY to 'undefined' nothingness for 0/0, then of course 0/0 is 'undefined'.
BUT, if it is ABSOLUTELY 'something at the start', then it is actually 'something' that makes 0/0 DEFINED as "1".
More "philosophical claptrap" for your delectation, mate! hehehe.
PS:...And it was 'philosophical claptrap' (but 'incompletely' done, obviously) which 'gave' you the current AXIOMS in the first place...which axioms are obviously also 'incomplete'. Philosophical claptrap must be 'completely' done by a new generation od 'philosophical claptrappers' if we are to have 'complete' axioms/mathematics.
Cheers.
RC.
.
QUOTE (RealityCheck to NCN+Jan 11 2008, 02:51 AM)
Think about what you just said.
If zero is a starting point that 'exists', then it is the GROUND STATE 'point' from which you RELATIVELY go on to construct/measure things form as the ORIGIN STATE/POINT.
In which case you are IPSO FACTO treating ZERO and the whole NUMBER LINE 'relatively' to begin with.
So there is NO ABSOLUTE starting point that is NOTHING....rather it is the FIRST SOMETHING/NUMBER that you AXIOMATICALLY relegated to 'nothingness' simply because of a RELATIVITY AD HOC 'definition' for STARTING POINT.
In which case, if zero IS merely a starting GROUND STATE VALUE 'someting', then 0/0 would BE "1" in the same 'AXIOMATIC RELATIVITY LINE CONSTRUCT/MANIPULATIONS.
That is, relative nothing "ground state something" starting value/point divided by another axiomatically identical relative nothing "ground state something" starting value/point, would be a "starting something" divided by a "starting something"...which would be "1"....and NOT 'undefined'.
See?
If "0" IS something relegated RELATIVELY to 'undefined' nothingness for 0/0, then of course 0/0 is 'undefined'.
BUT, if it is ABSOLUTELY 'something at the start', then it is actually 'something' that makes 0/0 DEFINED as "1".
More "philosophical claptrap" for your delectation, mate! hehehe.
PS:...And it was 'philosophical claptrap' (but 'incompletely' done, obviously) which 'gave' you the current AXIOMS in the first place...which axioms are obviously also 'incomplete'. Philosophical claptrap must be 'completely' done by a new generation od 'philosophical claptrappers' if we are to have 'complete' axioms/mathematics.
Cheers.
RC.
.
QUOTE (NoCleverName to me+Jan 11 2008, 03:55 AM)
Nice try, RC ... but you're wasting your time here beating on poor old zero. Besides, since simple transformations can move zero to where ever you want it ... and other numbers over zero, it's hard to see why it should be singled out.
So 'transformations' are still RELATIVE manipulations based on RELATIVE axioms/definitions of the RELATIVE 'something' that will STILL be 'a starting something' 'relabelled' and RELATIVELY 'relegated' to NOTHINGNESS simply for the convenience of that RELATIVE construction from a RELATIVE 'definition' etc etc etc.
See?
There is no getting away ABSOLUTELY from 'philosophical claptrap' unless you have some ABSOLUTE NOTHINGNESS 'point' that IS 'on' ANY number line uniquely defined as a definite ABSOLUTE starting something Value/Point of 'origin'....instead of a BOUNDARY COMPOUND/SUPERPOSITION STATE/VALUE as I described earlier.
I appreciate where you're 'coming from', really I do....but that ZERO NUMBER 'starting point' is not definable as a VALID NUMBER....UNLESS it is actually a starting "something"; in which case, that something NUMBER "0" divided by that same something NUMBER "0" is then "1"...and not "undefined" as currently 'derived' from the INCOMPLETE 'philosophical claptrap' that has "0" defined BOTH as a RELATIVE STARTING "SOMETHING" point/number, AND also a NOTHING 'ORIGIN' concept that is ABSOLUTELY not on the line at all. No wonder the inconsistencies and undefined 'derivations/definitions'.
Cheers all!
.RC.
.
And that is where that conversation between me and NCN stands at this time.
I again hereby invite the open participation of any and all constructive intellects of whatever persuasions, schools of thought, lay/professional standing, gender and personal beliefs. It doesn’t matter as long as you are a GENUINE ‘explorer’ of the concrete/abstract world around you! hehehe.
IMPORTANT NOTE to all intending participents: Please try to FORGET all past “FEUDS” you may have had with whomever. All I desire HERE is for the conversation to BEGIN “CLEAN” and PROCEED “WITHOUT RANCOUR” and REMAIN RELEVANT ONLY to “AXIOMATIC/DEFINITIONAL” aspects of ZERO....and no ‘muddying’ extraneous sideshows and feuds. We are NOT here to take ‘potshots’ at ANYONE OR ANYTHING.....we are here to PROPERLY and LEGITIMATELY and SOBERLY and RESPECTFULLY re-examine the status quo axiomatis and definitional “understandings” regarding ‘zero’....and see where that re-examination leads. OK? PLEASE!.....check all “old vitriol" and "personal baggage” at the door before entering! hehehe.
PS: I find myself very short of time at the moment, so I’ll be back in THIS thread in a few days to see how the (hopefully polite and constructive) conversation and axiomatic/definitional re-examination is going. Cheers all!
Thankyou, AlphaNumeric, everyone. Good luck and good thinking, all!
Your friend in Science (both mathematical and physical),
RealityCkeck.
.
QUOTE (RealityCheck to NCN+Jan 11 2008, 04:48 AM)
So 'transformations' are still RELATIVE manipulations based on RELATIVE axioms/definitions of the RELATIVE 'something' that will STILL be 'a starting something' 'relabelled' and RELATIVELY 'relegated' to NOTHINGNESS simply for the convenience of that RELATIVE construction from a RELATIVE 'definition' etc etc etc.
See?
There is no getting away ABSOLUTELY from 'philosophical claptrap' unless you have some ABSOLUTE NOTHINGNESS 'point' that IS 'on' ANY number line uniquely defined as a definite ABSOLUTE starting something Value/Point of 'origin'....instead of a BOUNDARY COMPOUND/SUPERPOSITION STATE/VALUE as I described earlier.
I appreciate where you're 'coming from', really I do....but that ZERO NUMBER 'starting point' is not definable as a VALID NUMBER....UNLESS it is actually a starting "something"; in which case, that something NUMBER "0" divided by that same something NUMBER "0" is then "1"...and not "undefined" as currently 'derived' from the INCOMPLETE 'philosophical claptrap' that has "0" defined BOTH as a RELATIVE STARTING "SOMETHING" point/number, AND also a NOTHING 'ORIGIN' concept that is ABSOLUTELY not on the line at all. No wonder the inconsistencies and undefined 'derivations/definitions'.
Cheers all!
.RC.
.
And that is where that conversation between me and NCN stands at this time.
I again hereby invite the open participation of any and all constructive intellects of whatever persuasions, schools of thought, lay/professional standing, gender and personal beliefs. It doesn’t matter as long as you are a GENUINE ‘explorer’ of the concrete/abstract world around you! hehehe.
IMPORTANT NOTE to all intending participents: Please try to FORGET all past “FEUDS” you may have had with whomever. All I desire HERE is for the conversation to BEGIN “CLEAN” and PROCEED “WITHOUT RANCOUR” and REMAIN RELEVANT ONLY to “AXIOMATIC/DEFINITIONAL” aspects of ZERO....and no ‘muddying’ extraneous sideshows and feuds. We are NOT here to take ‘potshots’ at ANYONE OR ANYTHING.....we are here to PROPERLY and LEGITIMATELY and SOBERLY and RESPECTFULLY re-examine the status quo axiomatis and definitional “understandings” regarding ‘zero’....and see where that re-examination leads. OK? PLEASE!.....check all “old vitriol" and "personal baggage” at the door before entering! hehehe.
PS: I find myself very short of time at the moment, so I’ll be back in THIS thread in a few days to see how the (hopefully polite and constructive) conversation and axiomatic/definitional re-examination is going. Cheers all!
Thankyou, AlphaNumeric, everyone. Good luck and good thinking, all!
Your friend in Science (both mathematical and physical),
RealityCkeck.
.
Thanks for bumping this thread and I so have some things to add now:
1. The concept of 'infinity' is underspecified and indeterminant. Only a single unbounded, variable quantity should be used when computing limits (and it would appear natural to associate this with the time over which a process has occured).
If we define infinity and 0 to be:
infinity=n
0=1/n
and then allow for all irrational numbers to be defined by a single variable term n->infinity, to determine precision, then we no longer have indeterminism involved in statements like 0/0=1 of 0^0~=1-log(infinity)/infinity or infinity^2>infinity or infinity-infinity=0 etc.
And we can simply denote many irrational values as, for example e=(1+0)^infinity.
An additive 0, if necessary to describe for some reason (there are an infinite number of possible 0s we could add to an equation and so an addition of 0 isn't necessary or useful), we could construct is a cancellation of equal and opposing polarity terms such as 0-0 or x-x etc.
2. Irrational numbers have no specific precision (truly irrationals and likely even integers could be seen in the same context). A number line is dynamic and context dependent and consists of an ordering of elements at any particular moment and for example, the computation of 2+5=7 implicitly constructs the numberline:
0<1<2<5<7
(The numbers 0 and 1 I included because of their implicit necessity in both constructing 2 and 5 as (1+1) and (1+1+1+1+1) and the number 0 is also implicitly required in order that we can detect equality and inequality, because this is determined by whether or not x-y=0, in which case x=y, though we could remove 1 and define it as 0/0)
Numbers only have a meaning relative to other numbers and more fundamentally to the units by which numbers are constructed.
A more fundamental representation of "Real" numbers in this context could be seen as a range of possible solutions, which actually requires 2 dimensions to specify as either a minimum and maximum value or a central value with a tolerance, that are ordered numerically, with a fundamental representation as two rings, representing positive and negative quantities respectively and an implicit detached zero point for determining equality between these.
If we define +0, +1 and +infinity as starting points of a line segment (though we can define +1 to be either the geometric mean or the product of +0 and +infinity), then we have a positive number line ordered as:
+0<+1<+infinity
If we apply a reciprocal operation, this becomes the same as reversing the order of a set:
+1/+infinity<+1/+1=+1<+/+0
If we negate the original values, we again invert the ordering of this set and get:
-infinity<-1<-0
If we append these two, positive and negative line segments together, and place an element Z to indicate the additive identity for zero, we get:
-infinity<-1<-0<Z<+0<+1<+infinity
A potential problem arises though when an additive operation crosses from the positive line to the negative line as we have the potential inclusion of Z as an element and, for example +1-(+1) would not necessarily equal +0 or -0, but instead the additive zero, Z.
But at least the context in which a multiplicative 0 or infinite value occurs is deterministic by this system and as points are added and manipulated to this number line, a specific solution could be seen as arising from various reversals and shifts of segments of numbers along this axis and for some computation resulting in an approximation of pi, we could see the total context of a computation as, for example:
-(infinity^2)<-infinity<-1<-0<Z<+0<+1<+3<+3.1<pi<+3.2<+10<log(+infinity)<+infinity
And in this case pi is defined not as a single number but an ordered pairing of {3.1,3.2}, or alternately it might be a pairing of a current estimate and an iteration number etc.
3. A finite number is actually a number and not a variable. The statement "x is finite" is inaccurate, just as the statement that "all elements of 1,2,3,... are numbers" is inaccurate as '...' isn't a number and this implies that a recursive definition that an infinite sequence is a number.
And taken as a limit, there is no specific number that terminates the sequences 1,2,3,... and neither does a specific number terminate the sequence 1/1,1/2,1/3,.... The diferences in one case are infinite and in the other case the differences are infinitesimal.
4. An informationally compressive mapping from a set of possible solutions convey some quantity of information to an alternate mapping that doesn't convey identical information is not invertible and can't be considered an equality or provable identity, but instead a possible approximation or isolated solution from other elements and if a set is infinite, then any finite result would automatically not be an identity.
1. The concept of 'infinity' is underspecified and indeterminant. Only a single unbounded, variable quantity should be used when computing limits (and it would appear natural to associate this with the time over which a process has occured).
If we define infinity and 0 to be:
infinity=n
0=1/n
and then allow for all irrational numbers to be defined by a single variable term n->infinity, to determine precision, then we no longer have indeterminism involved in statements like 0/0=1 of 0^0~=1-log(infinity)/infinity or infinity^2>infinity or infinity-infinity=0 etc.
And we can simply denote many irrational values as, for example e=(1+0)^infinity.
An additive 0, if necessary to describe for some reason (there are an infinite number of possible 0s we could add to an equation and so an addition of 0 isn't necessary or useful), we could construct is a cancellation of equal and opposing polarity terms such as 0-0 or x-x etc.
2. Irrational numbers have no specific precision (truly irrationals and likely even integers could be seen in the same context). A number line is dynamic and context dependent and consists of an ordering of elements at any particular moment and for example, the computation of 2+5=7 implicitly constructs the numberline:
0<1<2<5<7
(The numbers 0 and 1 I included because of their implicit necessity in both constructing 2 and 5 as (1+1) and (1+1+1+1+1) and the number 0 is also implicitly required in order that we can detect equality and inequality, because this is determined by whether or not x-y=0, in which case x=y, though we could remove 1 and define it as 0/0)
Numbers only have a meaning relative to other numbers and more fundamentally to the units by which numbers are constructed.
A more fundamental representation of "Real" numbers in this context could be seen as a range of possible solutions, which actually requires 2 dimensions to specify as either a minimum and maximum value or a central value with a tolerance, that are ordered numerically, with a fundamental representation as two rings, representing positive and negative quantities respectively and an implicit detached zero point for determining equality between these.
If we define +0, +1 and +infinity as starting points of a line segment (though we can define +1 to be either the geometric mean or the product of +0 and +infinity), then we have a positive number line ordered as:
+0<+1<+infinity
If we apply a reciprocal operation, this becomes the same as reversing the order of a set:
+1/+infinity<+1/+1=+1<+/+0
If we negate the original values, we again invert the ordering of this set and get:
-infinity<-1<-0
If we append these two, positive and negative line segments together, and place an element Z to indicate the additive identity for zero, we get:
-infinity<-1<-0<Z<+0<+1<+infinity
A potential problem arises though when an additive operation crosses from the positive line to the negative line as we have the potential inclusion of Z as an element and, for example +1-(+1) would not necessarily equal +0 or -0, but instead the additive zero, Z.
But at least the context in which a multiplicative 0 or infinite value occurs is deterministic by this system and as points are added and manipulated to this number line, a specific solution could be seen as arising from various reversals and shifts of segments of numbers along this axis and for some computation resulting in an approximation of pi, we could see the total context of a computation as, for example:
-(infinity^2)<-infinity<-1<-0<Z<+0<+1<+3<+3.1<pi<+3.2<+10<log(+infinity)<+infinity
And in this case pi is defined not as a single number but an ordered pairing of {3.1,3.2}, or alternately it might be a pairing of a current estimate and an iteration number etc.
3. A finite number is actually a number and not a variable. The statement "x is finite" is inaccurate, just as the statement that "all elements of 1,2,3,... are numbers" is inaccurate as '...' isn't a number and this implies that a recursive definition that an infinite sequence is a number.
And taken as a limit, there is no specific number that terminates the sequences 1,2,3,... and neither does a specific number terminate the sequence 1/1,1/2,1/3,.... The diferences in one case are infinite and in the other case the differences are infinitesimal.
4. An informationally compressive mapping from a set of possible solutions convey some quantity of information to an alternate mapping that doesn't convey identical information is not invertible and can't be considered an equality or provable identity, but instead a possible approximation or isolated solution from other elements and if a set is infinite, then any finite result would automatically not be an identity.
QUOTE (StevenA+Jan 15 2008, 07:36 PM)
Thanks for bumping this thread and I so have some things to add now:
1. The concept of 'infinity' is underspecified and indeterminant. Only a single unbounded, variable quantity should be used when computing limits (and it would appear natural to associate this with the time over which a process has occured).
If we define infinity and 0 to be:
infinity=n
0=1/n
and then allow for all irrational numbers to be defined by a single variable term n->infinity, to determine precision, then we no longer have indeterminism involved in statements like 0/0=1 of 0^0~=1-log(infinity)/infinity or infinity^2>infinity or infinity-infinity=0 etc.
And we can simply denote many irrational values as, for example e=(1+0)^infinity.
An additive 0, if necessary to describe for some reason (there are an infinite number of possible 0s we could add to an equation and so an addition of 0 isn't necessary or useful), we could construct is a cancellation of equal and opposing polarity terms such as 0-0 or x-x etc.
2. Irrational numbers have no specific precision (truly irrationals and likely even integers could be seen in the same context). A number line is dynamic and context dependent and consists of an ordering of elements at any particular moment and for example, the computation of 2+5=7 implicitly constructs the numberline:
0<1<2<5<7
(The numbers 0 and 1 I included because of their implicit necessity in both constructing 2 and 5 as (1+1) and (1+1+1+1+1) and the number 0 is also implicitly required in order that we can detect equality and inequality, because this is determined by whether or not x-y=0, in which case x=y, though we could remove 1 and define it as 0/0)
Numbers only have a meaning relative to other numbers and more fundamentally to the units by which numbers are constructed.
A more fundamental representation of "Real" numbers in this context could be seen as a range of possible solutions, which actually requires 2 dimensions to specify as either a minimum and maximum value or a central value with a tolerance, that are ordered numerically, with a fundamental representation as two rings, representing positive and negative quantities respectively and an implicit detached zero point for determining equality between these.
If we define +0, +1 and +infinity as starting points of a line segment (though we can define +1 to be either the geometric mean or the product of +0 and +infinity), then we have a positive number line ordered as:
+0<+1<+infinity
If we apply a reciprocal operation, this becomes the same as reversing the order of a set:
+1/+infinity<+1/+1=+1<+/+0
If we negate the original values, we again invert the ordering of this set and get:
-infinity<-1<-0
If we append these two, positive and negative line segments together, and place an element Z to indicate the additive identity for zero, we get:
-infinity<-1<-0<Z<+0<+1<+infinity
A potential problem arises though when an additive operation crosses from the positive line to the negative line as we have the potential inclusion of Z as an element and, for example +1-(+1) would not necessarily equal +0 or -0, but instead the additive zero, Z.
But at least the context in which a multiplicative 0 or infinite value occurs is deterministic by this system and as points are added and manipulated to this number line, a specific solution could be seen as arising from various reversals and shifts of segments of numbers along this axis and for some computation resulting in an approximation of pi, we could see the total context of a computation as, for example:
-(infinity^2)<-infinity<-1<-0<Z<+0<+1<+3<+3.1<pi<+3.2<+10<log(+infinity)<+infinity
And in this case pi is defined not as a single number but an ordered pairing of {3.1,3.2}, or alternately it might be a pairing of a current estimate and an iteration number etc.
3. A finite number is actually a number and not a variable. The statement "x is finite" is inaccurate, just as the statement that "all elements of 1,2,3,... are numbers" is inaccurate as '...' isn't a number and this implies that a recursive definition that an infinite sequence is a number.
And taken as a limit, there is no specific number that terminates the sequences 1,2,3,... and neither does a specific number terminate the sequence 1/1,1/2,1/3,.... The diferences in one case are infinite and in the other case the differences are infinitesimal.
4. An informationally compressive mapping from a set of possible solutions convey some quantity of information to an alternate mapping that doesn't convey identical information is not invertible and can't be considered an equality or provable identity, but instead a possible approximation or isolated solution from other elements and if a set is infinite, then any finite result would automatically not be an identity.
Infinity is a concept, not a number. You're treating infinity as a number, which caters to the answers you seek, but does not hold valid for all statements.
For example, in your post, you define 0 as equal to 1/n, when it should be a limit. The same thing holds true for defining n as infinity, by which I mean that you should be treating it as a limit.
Again, you make the same mistake assuming 0/0=1. Granted, 0=0*1 is true, but using your convoluted logic, you could say that since 0=0*2, then 0/0=2. All of a sudden, 1=2 which is not true. Thus, you cannot do that. Now, Euler also had a problem with the infinitely large and small, but he addressed this issue many a times in Opera Omnia. Clearly you've never read it, but then again, most math professors haven't either.
We run into the same problem here, where you define e=(1+0)^infinity. In reality, e=limit((1+1/n)^n) n->infinity. Now, 1/e=limit((1-1/n)^n) n->infinity. If 1/n according to you equals 0, then (1+0)^infinity and (1-0)^infinity should be the same, when in reality they aren't.
Another major mistake you've committed is treating a line segment as a line. Line segments have finite length, but are constituted of infinite points (i.e. your line segment may start at 0 and end at 2, but 0<0.000...0001<0.000...0002<2). Lines, however, are of infinite length. Infinity can never exist on a line segment.
I'll leave it to AlphaNumeric (or someone else from the "forum mafia") to butcher the rest.
1. The concept of 'infinity' is underspecified and indeterminant. Only a single unbounded, variable quantity should be used when computing limits (and it would appear natural to associate this with the time over which a process has occured).
If we define infinity and 0 to be:
infinity=n
0=1/n
and then allow for all irrational numbers to be defined by a single variable term n->infinity, to determine precision, then we no longer have indeterminism involved in statements like 0/0=1 of 0^0~=1-log(infinity)/infinity or infinity^2>infinity or infinity-infinity=0 etc.
And we can simply denote many irrational values as, for example e=(1+0)^infinity.
An additive 0, if necessary to describe for some reason (there are an infinite number of possible 0s we could add to an equation and so an addition of 0 isn't necessary or useful), we could construct is a cancellation of equal and opposing polarity terms such as 0-0 or x-x etc.
2. Irrational numbers have no specific precision (truly irrationals and likely even integers could be seen in the same context). A number line is dynamic and context dependent and consists of an ordering of elements at any particular moment and for example, the computation of 2+5=7 implicitly constructs the numberline:
0<1<2<5<7
(The numbers 0 and 1 I included because of their implicit necessity in both constructing 2 and 5 as (1+1) and (1+1+1+1+1) and the number 0 is also implicitly required in order that we can detect equality and inequality, because this is determined by whether or not x-y=0, in which case x=y, though we could remove 1 and define it as 0/0)
Numbers only have a meaning relative to other numbers and more fundamentally to the units by which numbers are constructed.
A more fundamental representation of "Real" numbers in this context could be seen as a range of possible solutions, which actually requires 2 dimensions to specify as either a minimum and maximum value or a central value with a tolerance, that are ordered numerically, with a fundamental representation as two rings, representing positive and negative quantities respectively and an implicit detached zero point for determining equality between these.
If we define +0, +1 and +infinity as starting points of a line segment (though we can define +1 to be either the geometric mean or the product of +0 and +infinity), then we have a positive number line ordered as:
+0<+1<+infinity
If we apply a reciprocal operation, this becomes the same as reversing the order of a set:
+1/+infinity<+1/+1=+1<+/+0
If we negate the original values, we again invert the ordering of this set and get:
-infinity<-1<-0
If we append these two, positive and negative line segments together, and place an element Z to indicate the additive identity for zero, we get:
-infinity<-1<-0<Z<+0<+1<+infinity
A potential problem arises though when an additive operation crosses from the positive line to the negative line as we have the potential inclusion of Z as an element and, for example +1-(+1) would not necessarily equal +0 or -0, but instead the additive zero, Z.
But at least the context in which a multiplicative 0 or infinite value occurs is deterministic by this system and as points are added and manipulated to this number line, a specific solution could be seen as arising from various reversals and shifts of segments of numbers along this axis and for some computation resulting in an approximation of pi, we could see the total context of a computation as, for example:
-(infinity^2)<-infinity<-1<-0<Z<+0<+1<+3<+3.1<pi<+3.2<+10<log(+infinity)<+infinity
And in this case pi is defined not as a single number but an ordered pairing of {3.1,3.2}, or alternately it might be a pairing of a current estimate and an iteration number etc.
3. A finite number is actually a number and not a variable. The statement "x is finite" is inaccurate, just as the statement that "all elements of 1,2,3,... are numbers" is inaccurate as '...' isn't a number and this implies that a recursive definition that an infinite sequence is a number.
And taken as a limit, there is no specific number that terminates the sequences 1,2,3,... and neither does a specific number terminate the sequence 1/1,1/2,1/3,.... The diferences in one case are infinite and in the other case the differences are infinitesimal.
4. An informationally compressive mapping from a set of possible solutions convey some quantity of information to an alternate mapping that doesn't convey identical information is not invertible and can't be considered an equality or provable identity, but instead a possible approximation or isolated solution from other elements and if a set is infinite, then any finite result would automatically not be an identity.
Infinity is a concept, not a number. You're treating infinity as a number, which caters to the answers you seek, but does not hold valid for all statements.
For example, in your post, you define 0 as equal to 1/n, when it should be a limit. The same thing holds true for defining n as infinity, by which I mean that you should be treating it as a limit.
Again, you make the same mistake assuming 0/0=1. Granted, 0=0*1 is true, but using your convoluted logic, you could say that since 0=0*2, then 0/0=2. All of a sudden, 1=2 which is not true. Thus, you cannot do that. Now, Euler also had a problem with the infinitely large and small, but he addressed this issue many a times in Opera Omnia. Clearly you've never read it, but then again, most math professors haven't either.
We run into the same problem here, where you define e=(1+0)^infinity. In reality, e=limit((1+1/n)^n) n->infinity. Now, 1/e=limit((1-1/n)^n) n->infinity. If 1/n according to you equals 0, then (1+0)^infinity and (1-0)^infinity should be the same, when in reality they aren't.
Another major mistake you've committed is treating a line segment as a line. Line segments have finite length, but are constituted of infinite points (i.e. your line segment may start at 0 and end at 2, but 0<0.000...0001<0.000...0002<2). Lines, however, are of infinite length. Infinity can never exist on a line segment.
I'll leave it to AlphaNumeric (or someone else from the "forum mafia") to butcher the rest.
QUOTE (Guest00+Jan 15 2008, 05:44 PM)
Infinity is a concept, not a number. You're treating infinity as a number, which caters to the answers you seek, but does not hold valid for all statements.
For example, in your post, you define 0 as equal to 1/n, when it should be a limit. The same thing holds true for defining n as infinity, by which I mean that you should be treating it as a limit.
Again, you make the same mistake assuming 0/0=1. Granted, 0=0*1 is true, but using your convoluted logic, you could say that since 0=0*2, then 0/0=2. All of a sudden, 1=2 which is not true. Thus, you cannot do that. Now, Euler also had a problem with the infinitely large and small, but he addressed this issue many a times in Opera Omnia. Clearly you've never read it, but then again, most math professors haven't either.
We run into the same problem here, where you define e=(1+0)^infinity. In reality, e=limit((1+1/n)^n) n->infinity. Now, 1/e=limit((1-1/n)^n) n->infinity. If 1/n according to you equals 0, then (1+0)^infinity and (1-0)^infinity should be the same, when in reality they aren't.
Another major mistake you've committed is treating a line segment as a line. Line segments have finite length, but are constituted of infinite points (i.e. your line segment may start at 0 and end at 2, but 0<0.000...0001<0.000...0002<2). Lines, however, are of infinite length. Infinity can never exist on a line segment.
I'll leave it to AlphaNumeric (or someone else from the "forum mafia") to butcher the rest.
Please leave the thread if you don't have anything to add to it.
For example, in your post, you define 0 as equal to 1/n, when it should be a limit. The same thing holds true for defining n as infinity, by which I mean that you should be treating it as a limit.
Again, you make the same mistake assuming 0/0=1. Granted, 0=0*1 is true, but using your convoluted logic, you could say that since 0=0*2, then 0/0=2. All of a sudden, 1=2 which is not true. Thus, you cannot do that. Now, Euler also had a problem with the infinitely large and small, but he addressed this issue many a times in Opera Omnia. Clearly you've never read it, but then again, most math professors haven't either.
We run into the same problem here, where you define e=(1+0)^infinity. In reality, e=limit((1+1/n)^n) n->infinity. Now, 1/e=limit((1-1/n)^n) n->infinity. If 1/n according to you equals 0, then (1+0)^infinity and (1-0)^infinity should be the same, when in reality they aren't.
Another major mistake you've committed is treating a line segment as a line. Line segments have finite length, but are constituted of infinite points (i.e. your line segment may start at 0 and end at 2, but 0<0.000...0001<0.000...0002<2). Lines, however, are of infinite length. Infinity can never exist on a line segment.
I'll leave it to AlphaNumeric (or someone else from the "forum mafia") to butcher the rest.
Please leave the thread if you don't have anything to add to it.
QUOTE (NoCleverName to NeoDevin @ Jan 10 2008+ 06:18 PM)
....I claim it is a rational number (in this case zero).
QUOTE (Someone+)
No, it isn't
QUOTE (SomeoneElse+)
Is too
QUOTE (APerson+)
Esteemed lame horse, no it isn't
QUOTE (AnotherPerson+)
Venerable diseased dog, it is too
QUOTE (DistinguishedGentleman+)
My solution is right, all others are wrong or my name isn't Ivan
Uh, I didn't really say that. Everybody is right.
Uh, I didn't really say that. Everybody is right.
QUOTE (RealityCheck to NoCleverName AND NeoDevin @ Jan 11 2008+ 12:09 AM)
If "0" is not ON the "abstract number" LINE construct, then how can it BE a "number" per se rather than a mere symbol for the number STRING notation convention indicating "absence of number" in a position IN a "notational STRING" rather than ON the "number LINE"?
QUOTE (NoCleverName to me @ Jan 11 2008+ 12:37 AM)
Of course zero is on the number line.
Then why is it 'undefined' when using that 'number' as in 0/0?
(...)Left to, itself, "0" would not BE a number at all....let alone on any number line UNIQUELY DEFINED in all cases.
I will stop here because as far as I can tell, you --RC-- were the only one who got an answer that agrees with what I know. It's not that 0/0 would not be a number, since it would, and it's not that it wouldn't be on the number line, because it would. Steven favors 0/0=1, whereas I favor 0/0= zero turned out of space. I can have my answer, he can have his 1, those who want can have their decidable or undecidable number, those who want it can have their line number, you can have your non-number, but there is only one method of definitely synthesizing all of those into a single answer: if zero divided by zero is solemnly declared to be both a place and a set of instructions in time. It is a position and a time.
It is very much like the redness of red: "Where did you see it? Show it to me and I will go check it and if that redness of red is really red I will tell you!"
I have seen the "redness of red" of 0/0. Trying to give it a "result" without telling you what I was doing at the time I saw that redness is outside the scope of my communicational ability. 0/0 doesn't fall out of the sky on top of people's heads, it comes in with a whole context. That context is the verb: what sort of equation caused it? Where was it going? Show it to me and I will confirm it or not.
One can't show me the redness of red --as one can't show me any result of 0/0-- without a checkable context to give it substance. Every single time thought ended up with a problem that ended in 0/0 it went around it. Computers are programmed around it.
A set of *unread* instructions is as a "momentum", say a "magnetic momentum" frozen in time: where was the equation that ended up with 0/0 coming from? It is that context that will have to know what to do with it. Examples would be:
1-... ...3/-3=-1, 2/-2=-2, 1/-1=-1, 0/0=1, 1/1=1, 2/2=1, 3/3=3... ...
2-... ...and since every n/1 equals 1, all n/0 must equal 0... ...
3-... ...and since n*0 equals 0, all n/0 equals n... ...
4-... ...and since n^infinity= n 90 degrees out of space, then 0/0 is no exception... ...
5-... ...if zero IS merely a starting GROUND STATE VALUE 'something', then 0/0 would BE "1" in the same 'AXIOMATIC RELATIVITY LINE CONSTRUCT/MANIPULATIONS... ...
The question is: does it have a use? This is philosophical pragmatism, I am aware... don't have much use for it...
In all cases, the instability was caused by the **operation** of division... the operation is unstable, and this instability will remain showing up in all systems you set up to handle it. When the numbers are unending, you will have to take a decision after each and every digit comes out of the operation, a conditionally-random walk... the "science of last digits" is the most sophisticatedly predictive superscience that doesn't exist. I know that because if all random walks are ready-made and previously written with numbers in the fabric of space, they collapse into the fabric of the atom.
A set of instructions can be taken apart piece by piece. The set of instructions of division takes as its last operation the last digit of a number, the one that upholds the unit quantity. Ignoring it, that is, rounding the unit quantity, destroys the information that it contains so much that it is impossible to recover the number's original numberiness because the numberiness of a number is spread over all of its digits. All of the truth of a number is spread over the totality of its expression, no matter what language and/or numeric base you use. It's a superimposition. A rounded-off number leaves you with the problem of monaditis, a most unpleasant disease of the nerves acquired by watching people discuss why fried rounded-off monads are so melted
QUOTE (RealityCheck to NCN @ Jan 11 2008+ 02:15 AM)
Then why is it 'undefined' when using that 'number' as in 0/0?
(...)Left to, itself, "0" would not BE a number at all....let alone on any number line UNIQUELY DEFINED in all cases.
I will stop here because as far as I can tell, you --RC-- were the only one who got an answer that agrees with what I know. It's not that 0/0 would not be a number, since it would, and it's not that it wouldn't be on the number line, because it would. Steven favors 0/0=1, whereas I favor 0/0= zero turned out of space. I can have my answer, he can have his 1, those who want can have their decidable or undecidable number, those who want it can have their line number, you can have your non-number, but there is only one method of definitely synthesizing all of those into a single answer: if zero divided by zero is solemnly declared to be both a place and a set of instructions in time. It is a position and a time.
It is very much like the redness of red: "Where did you see it? Show it to me and I will go check it and if that redness of red is really red I will tell you!"
I have seen the "redness of red" of 0/0. Trying to give it a "result" without telling you what I was doing at the time I saw that redness is outside the scope of my communicational ability. 0/0 doesn't fall out of the sky on top of people's heads, it comes in with a whole context. That context is the verb: what sort of equation caused it? Where was it going? Show it to me and I will confirm it or not.
One can't show me the redness of red --as one can't show me any result of 0/0-- without a checkable context to give it substance. Every single time thought ended up with a problem that ended in 0/0 it went around it. Computers are programmed around it.
A set of *unread* instructions is as a "momentum", say a "magnetic momentum" frozen in time: where was the equation that ended up with 0/0 coming from? It is that context that will have to know what to do with it. Examples would be:
1-... ...3/-3=-1, 2/-2=-2, 1/-1=-1, 0/0=1, 1/1=1, 2/2=1, 3/3=3... ...
2-... ...and since every n/1 equals 1, all n/0 must equal 0... ...
3-... ...and since n*0 equals 0, all n/0 equals n... ...
4-... ...and since n^infinity= n 90 degrees out of space, then 0/0 is no exception... ...
5-... ...if zero IS merely a starting GROUND STATE VALUE 'something', then 0/0 would BE "1" in the same 'AXIOMATIC RELATIVITY LINE CONSTRUCT/MANIPULATIONS... ...
The question is: does it have a use? This is philosophical pragmatism, I am aware... don't have much use for it...
In all cases, the instability was caused by the **operation** of division... the operation is unstable, and this instability will remain showing up in all systems you set up to handle it. When the numbers are unending, you will have to take a decision after each and every digit comes out of the operation, a conditionally-random walk... the "science of last digits" is the most sophisticatedly predictive superscience that doesn't exist. I know that because if all random walks are ready-made and previously written with numbers in the fabric of space, they collapse into the fabric of the atom.
A set of instructions can be taken apart piece by piece. The set of instructions of division takes as its last operation the last digit of a number, the one that upholds the unit quantity. Ignoring it, that is, rounding the unit quantity, destroys the information that it contains so much that it is impossible to recover the number's original numberiness because the numberiness of a number is spread over all of its digits. All of the truth of a number is spread over the totality of its expression, no matter what language and/or numeric base you use. It's a superimposition. A rounded-off number leaves you with the problem of monaditis, a most unpleasant disease of the nerves acquired by watching people discuss why fried rounded-off monads are so melted
QUOTE (RC+)
Obviously some 'axiomatic ad hocness' is required to 'bring' the "0" onto ANY number line as a UNIQUE and DEFINED 'number' which then unfortunately STILL behaves/results as UNDEFINED in operations using that ad hocly 'defined' number '0'
What is the verb?
A verb that encompasses a superimposition from which all meanings could possibly be derived IS the completest-possible definition of the circumstances that lead into that superimposition It is the best Chaitinly information algorithm that represents itself. There is and there can be no off-rounding, no corner-cutting... UNLESS you have a use for it. What is the degree of zoom you need?
If "infinitesimal is a photon", and "infinitesimal is the verb", it is evident that you would be "thusly" led:
1 is a photon, thus
11 is a photon, thus
1
11
101
1111
is a photon, thus
1
11
101
1111
10001
111111
1010101
11011011
101000101
1111111111
...
is a photon, and so on.
(Tangentially: are you all sure you can't see why this
http://zms.desy.de/news/newsnbsp/2004nbsp/.../index_eng.html
is screamingly funny? I was in stiches!)
Those are pre-written conclusions that you have no way of avoiding. Since it is all superimposed and what changes my zoom level, I might as well change the word "photon" above for the word "electron", or "atom", "number", "infinity", "infinitesimal", "pixel", etc., and this leaves me speaking a language of my own --so much so that I seem to have changed the subject-- but there is not and there can not exist any difference... everything started from the primordial infinitesimal... or is it infinity?
A meaning collapse, you mean, when all values are equally right and equally wrong. Agreed.
A meaning collapse, you mean, when all values are equally right and equally wrong. Agreed.
The only reason why 0 is mentioned is to define the concept of "starting point". Without "starting point" it isn't obvious how to measure anything, is it?
You can have your starting point only as long as it is subjected to having uses other than the ones intended: "starting point" in time or in space or in organization or in execution or in placement or in quantity? All of the above? It collapsed then. That is the nature of a starting point, it means all things because nothing else can have meaning without it and its "numberiness" is spread over what it started.
But wait, there is more, you get a free Ginsu Peeler. There is a long additional "right answer".
6--... ...if zero-as-a-unit-of-thought can turn in space then it has a "thickness" and that thickness is exactly, no more and no less, but exactly, the same length as the "unit of thought" that led you to it (be it an actual thought or number, atom, infinitesimal, infinity, AIT algorithm, whatever). This is another way of saying that infinitesimal and infinity have the same prime code length OR Chaitin program length. This thickness has its own numberiness, which is accessed when the turn happens. 0/0 as the end of a computational process of turning will give you as Yet Another Right Answer the infinitesimal PLACE resting on an infinitesimal length, and in order to check the redness of that red you will have to go there and check if it is a 1 or a 0 that is at the position you want along that length.
The smallest-possible code (instruction code for an instruction set, algorithm for Chaitin-ly compression, or prime code for a number) for the biggest-possible meaning can not be lossy or the numberiness of a number/thought/infinity/instruction would be lost--meaning wouldn't be salvageable through algorithmic decompression, the equation would make the "wrong" sort of mistakes -not the right mistakes such as ours in this thread-, the atom wouldn't hold, the infinity would be embraceable, the computer wouldn't add. The bit length of the infinitesimal is the same as the bit length of infinity because both are numerically equivalent, but not formally. The form (1010101010...) is not the form (110110110110...) even though they are both infinite-bitted. But both are collapsible into integer lengths.
The integer length bits are what is missing from any meaningful discussion of 0/0 and other singularities. If they are not recovered, the process is lossy. "recovery" is easier said than done, unfortunately.
Each and every bit of the "universe" or "equation" that led us to 0/0 has to be recoverable. So that if the "universe" you have at hand is a superimposition, the operation will have to specify each and every bit so that the result is right.
I thought people would see at a glance, because it is so obvious to me, that prime code wrapped around Sack's spiral is supposed to be a series of numbers in an irrational language we don't yet know, and that they are probably sines and cosines of integers. All of a family of irrationals already written in a number table. When Steven says
he is unwillingly exchanging a limited numeric accuracy for the accuracy of a form in space, which T.Roc answered with
he is unwillingly exchanging a limited numeric accuracy for the accuracy of a form in space, which T.Roc answered with
about "8 digits out" gives us a "fuzzy" approximation, because it CAN NOT be "accurate" to an arbitrary number of digits.
This worked well for Planck, and has been leading in a "fuzzy" way ever since. There is NO other reason that h has any meaning, or functionality in QM. When you give an "answer" that has -34 digits, and you are only working with "12 digit accuracy", you don't see the difference. Right answers; wrong reasons.
Which only leads me back to the same thing I already think: all answers will collapse into understanding, even if they turn out to be only a cheat-sheet of previously-written "unreadable" numbers.
Whatever your "unit of thought" is, all meanings stand spread, superimposed over it, screaming to be heard. Sometimes I wish they'd shut up.
So what? What use is an observable number line in reality? What possible use do I have for infinite points between any two points "in observable reality".
There is no linear anything in reality. Everything we do that is linear is but a weak local approximation of the non-linear process it is modeling.
Mathematics is a modeling and simulation language. To the extent you input the variables and algorithms, it can calculate reality to arbitrary accuracies.
Sorry, I consider your conclusion to be trivial, obvious, and of no apparent value.
So what? What use is an observable number line in reality? What possible use do I have for infinite points between any two points "in observable reality".
There is no linear anything in reality. Everything we do that is linear is but a weak local approximation of the non-linear process it is modeling.
Mathematics is a modeling and simulation language. To the extent you input the variables and algorithms, it can calculate reality to arbitrary accuracies.
Sorry, I consider your conclusion to be trivial, obvious, and of no apparent value.
One can see that the analysis of ANY 'line', WHEREVER OR HOWEVER OR WHENEVER IT IS 'DRAWN', and WHETHER PHYSICAL OR ABSTRACT, should allow for the 'contextual' fact that it is NOT 'stationary'. It is actually ALWAYS MOVING (in space-time? or whatever).
Why? If you want to model a line in reality, have at it. You can use all sorts of techniques to quantify the errors, the motion. But, what is it going to tell you? That it isn't perfect!! Whoopee!! We already knew that.
What is the verb?
If "infinitesimal is a photon", and "infinitesimal is the verb", it is evident that you would be "thusly" led:
1 is a photon, thus
11 is a photon, thus
1
11
101
1111
is a photon, thus
1
11
101
1111
10001
111111
1010101
11011011
101000101
1111111111
...
is a photon, and so on.
(Tangentially: are you all sure you can't see why this
http://zms.desy.de/news/newsnbsp/2004nbsp/.../index_eng.html
is screamingly funny? I was in stiches!)
Those are pre-written conclusions that you have no way of avoiding. Since it is all superimposed and what changes my zoom level, I might as well change the word "photon" above for the word "electron", or "atom", "number", "infinity", "infinitesimal", "pixel", etc., and this leaves me speaking a language of my own --so much so that I seem to have changed the subject-- but there is not and there can not exist any difference... everything started from the primordial infinitesimal... or is it infinity?
QUOTE
It would be valid as a symbolic placeholder (in a number STRING) and also as a BOUNDARY CONDITION/VALUE real-point/number TRANSITION/BRIDGING state/value between CONTRA-BALANCED 'lines'/continuums/actions etc.
A meaning collapse, you mean, when all values are equally right and equally wrong. Agreed.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| It would be valid as a symbolic placeholder (in a number STRING) and also as a BOUNDARY CONDITION/VALUE real-point/number TRANSITION/BRIDGING state/value between CONTRA-BALANCED 'lines'/continuums/actions etc. |
A meaning collapse, you mean, when all values are equally right and equally wrong. Agreed.
The only reason why 0 is mentioned is to define the concept of "starting point". Without "starting point" it isn't obvious how to measure anything, is it?
You can have your starting point only as long as it is subjected to having uses other than the ones intended: "starting point" in time or in space or in organization or in execution or in placement or in quantity? All of the above? It collapsed then. That is the nature of a starting point, it means all things because nothing else can have meaning without it and its "numberiness" is spread over what it started.
But wait, there is more, you get a free Ginsu Peeler. There is a long additional "right answer".
6--... ...if zero-as-a-unit-of-thought can turn in space then it has a "thickness" and that thickness is exactly, no more and no less, but exactly, the same length as the "unit of thought" that led you to it (be it an actual thought or number, atom, infinitesimal, infinity, AIT algorithm, whatever). This is another way of saying that infinitesimal and infinity have the same prime code length OR Chaitin program length. This thickness has its own numberiness, which is accessed when the turn happens. 0/0 as the end of a computational process of turning will give you as Yet Another Right Answer the infinitesimal PLACE resting on an infinitesimal length, and in order to check the redness of that red you will have to go there and check if it is a 1 or a 0 that is at the position you want along that length.
The smallest-possible code (instruction code for an instruction set, algorithm for Chaitin-ly compression, or prime code for a number) for the biggest-possible meaning can not be lossy or the numberiness of a number/thought/infinity/instruction would be lost--meaning wouldn't be salvageable through algorithmic decompression, the equation would make the "wrong" sort of mistakes -not the right mistakes such as ours in this thread-, the atom wouldn't hold, the infinity would be embraceable, the computer wouldn't add. The bit length of the infinitesimal is the same as the bit length of infinity because both are numerically equivalent, but not formally. The form (1010101010...) is not the form (110110110110...) even though they are both infinite-bitted. But both are collapsible into integer lengths.
The integer length bits are what is missing from any meaningful discussion of 0/0 and other singularities. If they are not recovered, the process is lossy. "recovery" is easier said than done, unfortunately.
Each and every bit of the "universe" or "equation" that led us to 0/0 has to be recoverable. So that if the "universe" you have at hand is a superimposition, the operation will have to specify each and every bit so that the result is right.
I thought people would see at a glance, because it is so obvious to me, that prime code wrapped around Sack's spiral is supposed to be a series of numbers in an irrational language we don't yet know, and that they are probably sines and cosines of integers. All of a family of irrationals already written in a number table. When Steven says
QUOTE
But realistically we know we're only going to need to work with phi to some limited accuracy in the first place, so that also implies we don't need to use a process that generates phi exactly either. We could use an approximate process that generates an approximate result.
he is unwillingly exchanging a limited numeric accuracy for the accuracy of a form in space, which T.Roc answered with
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| But realistically we know we're only going to need to work with phi to some limited accuracy in the first place, so that also implies we don't need to use a process that generates phi exactly either. We could use an approximate process that generates an approximate result. |
he is unwillingly exchanging a limited numeric accuracy for the accuracy of a form in space, which T.Roc answered with
about "8 digits out" gives us a "fuzzy" approximation, because it CAN NOT be "accurate" to an arbitrary number of digits.
This worked well for Planck, and has been leading in a "fuzzy" way ever since. There is NO other reason that h has any meaning, or functionality in QM. When you give an "answer" that has -34 digits, and you are only working with "12 digit accuracy", you don't see the difference. Right answers; wrong reasons.
Which only leads me back to the same thing I already think: all answers will collapse into understanding, even if they turn out to be only a cheat-sheet of previously-written "unreadable" numbers.
Whatever your "unit of thought" is, all meanings stand spread, superimposed over it, screaming to be heard. Sometimes I wish they'd shut up.
QUOTE (RC+ in the opening post)
[COLOR=blue]Since the 'line' is actually tracing a PATH/TRAJECTORY THROUGH 'SPACETIME (or whatever), ANY so-called 1-DIMENSIONAL 'line' is actually a 2-DIMENSIONAL TIME/SPACE-dependent PLANE/MEMBRANE etc.[/COLOR=blue]
But 2-dimensional does NOT describe it! If zero turned out of space still leaves information behind exactly BECAUSE if it were really nothing it wouldn't be turning, then that information is infinitesimal. It would have to be 1 + an infinitesimal, 1 + 2 infinitesimals, 1 + 3 infinitesimals, and so on... That is what would make infinitesimals collapse into what we already know. And we will collapse them.
But 2-dimensional does NOT describe it! If zero turned out of space still leaves information behind exactly BECAUSE if it were really nothing it wouldn't be turning, then that information is infinitesimal. It would have to be 1 + an infinitesimal, 1 + 2 infinitesimals, 1 + 3 infinitesimals, and so on... That is what would make infinitesimals collapse into what we already know. And we will collapse them.
QUOTE
In the reality context of observable phenomena, there is NO SUCH THING/POSSIBILITY as an 'abstract' NUMBER LINE.
So what? What use is an observable number line in reality? What possible use do I have for infinite points between any two points "in observable reality".
There is no linear anything in reality. Everything we do that is linear is but a weak local approximation of the non-linear process it is modeling.
Mathematics is a modeling and simulation language. To the extent you input the variables and algorithms, it can calculate reality to arbitrary accuracies.
Sorry, I consider your conclusion to be trivial, obvious, and of no apparent value.
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| In the reality context of observable phenomena, there is NO SUCH THING/POSSIBILITY as an 'abstract' NUMBER LINE. |
So what? What use is an observable number line in reality? What possible use do I have for infinite points between any two points "in observable reality".
There is no linear anything in reality. Everything we do that is linear is but a weak local approximation of the non-linear process it is modeling.
Mathematics is a modeling and simulation language. To the extent you input the variables and algorithms, it can calculate reality to arbitrary accuracies.
Sorry, I consider your conclusion to be trivial, obvious, and of no apparent value.
One can see that the analysis of ANY 'line', WHEREVER OR HOWEVER OR WHENEVER IT IS 'DRAWN', and WHETHER PHYSICAL OR ABSTRACT, should allow for the 'contextual' fact that it is NOT 'stationary'. It is actually ALWAYS MOVING (in space-time? or whatever).
Why? If you want to model a line in reality, have at it. You can use all sorts of techniques to quantify the errors, the motion. But, what is it going to tell you? That it isn't perfect!! Whoopee!! We already knew that.
QUOTE (meBigGuy+Jan 16 2008, 07:15 AM)
There is no linear anything in reality. Everything we do that is linear is but a weak local approximation of the non-linear process it is modeling.
Mathematics is a modeling and simulation language. To the extent you input the variables and algorithms, it can calculate reality to arbitrary accuracies.
There was nothing non-trivial in it, it was dripping with trivial, and RC was saying that before you!
If he is immersed in process and movement and you are modeling and simulating language, and he says there is no such thing as an abstract number line and you say there is no linear in anything, is it supposed to be cuter or more valid when you say it? Do you also really think your hair is sooooo good?
As for "arbitrary accuracy", it ain't getting within ten miles of me without being stoned -- "0.9r=1?" is beneath me and I will never do it unless I can change it into a mirror because my hair too is really sooooo good...
(Hey, what can I tell you? I am green with envy because of BDW!)
The thread is supposed to be a search for some sort of quantization in the distance between mathematics and real:
If he is immersed in process and movement and you are modeling and simulating language, and he says there is no such thing as an abstract number line and you say there is no linear in anything, is it supposed to be cuter or more valid when you say it? Do you also really think your hair is sooooo good?
As for "arbitrary accuracy", it ain't getting within ten miles of me without being stoned -- "0.9r=1?" is beneath me and I will never do it unless I can change it into a mirror because my hair too is really sooooo good...
(Hey, what can I tell you? I am green with envy because of BDW!)
The thread is supposed to be a search for some sort of quantization in the distance between mathematics and real:
Hence all those 'weird' things like Cantor's Set etc which come up with 'logical' BUT 'irrelevant in reality' results (like removing as many parts of a 'line' in a continuous process and STILL ending up with an 'INFINITE NUMBER OF POINTS' left on that 'line'.
One can see that the analysis of ANY 'line', WHEREVER OR HOWEVER OR WHENEVER IT IS 'DRAWN', and WHETHER PHYSICAL OR ABSTRACT, should allow for the 'contextual' fact that it is NOT 'stationary'. It is actually ALWAYS MOVING (in space-time? or whatever).
In other words, even as we 'LOOK' at and 'DISECT' a 'line' and make 'mathematical/number theory' observations about its 'properties', we are MISSING THE FACT that the 'line' we are analysing bears NO RELATION to the presumed stationary/absolute/finite 'distance/length' line we 'abstractly' and mistakenly 'see'.
Since the 'line' is actually tracing a PATH/TRAJECTORY THROUGH 'SPACETIME (or whatever), ANY so-called 1-DIMENSIONAL 'line' is actually a 2-DIMENSIONAL TIME/SPACE-dependent PLANE/MEMBRANE etc.
And THAT is ONE of the reasons why maths/number theory CURRENTLY gets all those weird results....because they are actually dealing with 'processes/functions that have LATERAL 'EXCURSION' 'properties/results' from the 'imagined' original 'LINEAR' construct.
Mathematics is a modeling and simulation language. To the extent you input the variables and algorithms, it can calculate reality to arbitrary accuracies.
There was nothing non-trivial in it, it was dripping with trivial, and RC was saying that before you!
QUOTE
In the reality context of observable phenomena, there is NO SUCH THING/POSSIBILITY as an 'abstract' NUMBER LINE.
ANY 'line' one cares to set out or draw is in reality IMMERSED in PROCESS and MOVEMENT...and as such is NOT an 'absolute' or 'defined' THING or DISTANCE etc.
So all the ZENO PARADOXES and 'progressive series' LIMITS and FUNCTIONS based on the IDEA that such a 'line' is COMPLETE AND STATIC from one 'end' to the 'other end' is in 'reality process context' FALLACIOUS from the outset.
Hence all those 'weird' things like Cantor's Set etc which come up with 'logical' BUT 'irrelevant in reality' results (like removing as many parts of a 'line' in a continuous process and STILL ending up with an 'INFINITE NUMBER OF POINTS' left on that 'line'.
ANY 'line' one cares to set out or draw is in reality IMMERSED in PROCESS and MOVEMENT...and as such is NOT an 'absolute' or 'defined' THING or DISTANCE etc.
So all the ZENO PARADOXES and 'progressive series' LIMITS and FUNCTIONS based on the IDEA that such a 'line' is COMPLETE AND STATIC from one 'end' to the 'other end' is in 'reality process context' FALLACIOUS from the outset.
Hence all those 'weird' things like Cantor's Set etc which come up with 'logical' BUT 'irrelevant in reality' results (like removing as many parts of a 'line' in a continuous process and STILL ending up with an 'INFINITE NUMBER OF POINTS' left on that 'line'.
If he is immersed in process and movement and you are modeling and simulating language, and he says there is no such thing as an abstract number line and you say there is no linear in anything, is it supposed to be cuter or more valid when you say it? Do you also really think your hair is sooooo good?
As for "arbitrary accuracy", it ain't getting within ten miles of me without being stoned -- "0.9r=1?" is beneath me and I will never do it unless I can change it into a mirror because my hair too is really sooooo good...
(Hey, what can I tell you? I am green with envy because of BDW!)
The thread is supposed to be a search for some sort of quantization in the distance between mathematics and real:
QUOTE (->
| QUOTE |
| In the reality context of observable phenomena, there is NO SUCH THING/POSSIBILITY as an 'abstract' NUMBER LINE. ANY 'line' one cares to set out or draw is in reality IMMERSED in PROCESS and MOVEMENT...and as such is NOT an 'absolute' or 'defined' THING or DISTANCE etc. So all the ZENO PARADOXES and 'progressive series' LIMITS and FUNCTIONS based on the IDEA that such a 'line' is COMPLETE AND STATIC from one 'end' to the 'other end' is in 'reality process context' FALLACIOUS from the outset. Hence all those 'weird' things like Cantor's Set etc which come up with 'logical' BUT 'irrelevant in reality' results (like removing as many parts of a 'line' in a continuous process and STILL ending up with an 'INFINITE NUMBER OF POINTS' left on that 'line'. |
If he is immersed in process and movement and you are modeling and simulating language, and he says there is no such thing as an abstract number line and you say there is no linear in anything, is it supposed to be cuter or more valid when you say it? Do you also really think your hair is sooooo good?
As for "arbitrary accuracy", it ain't getting within ten miles of me without being stoned -- "0.9r=1?" is beneath me and I will never do it unless I can change it into a mirror because my hair too is really sooooo good...
(Hey, what can I tell you? I am green with envy because of BDW!)
The thread is supposed to be a search for some sort of quantization in the distance between mathematics and real:
Hence all those 'weird' things like Cantor's Set etc which come up with 'logical' BUT 'irrelevant in reality' results (like removing as many parts of a 'line' in a continuous process and STILL ending up with an 'INFINITE NUMBER OF POINTS' left on that 'line'.
One can see that the analysis of ANY 'line', WHEREVER OR HOWEVER OR WHENEVER IT IS 'DRAWN', and WHETHER PHYSICAL OR ABSTRACT, should allow for the 'contextual' fact that it is NOT 'stationary'. It is actually ALWAYS MOVING (in space-time? or whatever).
In other words, even as we 'LOOK' at and 'DISECT' a 'line' and make 'mathematical/number theory' observations about its 'properties', we are MISSING THE FACT that the 'line' we are analysing bears NO RELATION to the presumed stationary/absolute/finite 'distance/length' line we 'abstractly' and mistakenly 'see'.
Since the 'line' is actually tracing a PATH/TRAJECTORY THROUGH 'SPACETIME (or whatever), ANY so-called 1-DIMENSIONAL 'line' is actually a 2-DIMENSIONAL TIME/SPACE-dependent PLANE/MEMBRANE etc.
And THAT is ONE of the reasons why maths/number theory CURRENTLY gets all those weird results....because they are actually dealing with 'processes/functions that have LATERAL 'EXCURSION' 'properties/results' from the 'imagined' original 'LINEAR' construct.
Ivan
This surely has to be worth reading since You have made such long post about what= a 0. I will do it just have some lunch to get energy
By the way, in Sanskrit 0 is "shuna", which in Latvian ( that is my language, one of 2 closest relatives to Sanskrit, the closest being Lithuanian language ) means CELL.
I was thinking about 0 again in terms of derivatives between scales of infinitesimals:
1) if 2 functions has a ratio 0/0 in some point in some scale and this uncertainty for many functions can be resolved up by taking FIRST derivative = going one scale down -> and that ratio of derivatives could lead to any finite value with any sign, meaning that each of derivatives would be of finite value with some sign->
Which means that in a case of 2 n times differentiable functions which remain 0 until nth differentiation, , there are n-1 dimensions or parameters how these 2 zeroes can be infinitely different, and with every differentiation we get closer to the last finite difference in some dimension or split like finite/0 = infinity or 0/finite=0
However, when we have infinitely differentiable function giving 0 at the same point , we will only after performing infinite amount of differentiations get to scale where both zeroes will be perfectly identical as all differences will be eliminated, 0/0=finite in that last scale. (I do not know if there are such functions).
So, as a result we will get a scale where both 0 - oes will be identical. This 1 identical 0 should be absolute 0.
If we start from it now and integrate upwards, what properties comes first in mind that could split such a identical to itself 0 into 2 infinitely different ones?
Too many
Not good idea.
This surely has to be worth reading since You have made such long post about what= a 0. I will do it just have some lunch to get energy
By the way, in Sanskrit 0 is "shuna", which in Latvian ( that is my language, one of 2 closest relatives to Sanskrit, the closest being Lithuanian language ) means CELL.
I was thinking about 0 again in terms of derivatives between scales of infinitesimals:
1) if 2 functions has a ratio 0/0 in some point in some scale and this uncertainty for many functions can be resolved up by taking FIRST derivative = going one scale down -> and that ratio of derivatives could lead to any finite value with any sign, meaning that each of derivatives would be of finite value with some sign->
Which means that in a case of 2 n times differentiable functions which remain 0 until nth differentiation, , there are n-1 dimensions or parameters how these 2 zeroes can be infinitely different, and with every differentiation we get closer to the last finite difference in some dimension or split like finite/0 = infinity or 0/finite=0
However, when we have infinitely differentiable function giving 0 at the same point , we will only after performing infinite amount of differentiations get to scale where both zeroes will be perfectly identical as all differences will be eliminated, 0/0=finite in that last scale. (I do not know if there are such functions).
So, as a result we will get a scale where both 0 - oes will be identical. This 1 identical 0 should be absolute 0.
If we start from it now and integrate upwards, what properties comes first in mind that could split such a identical to itself 0 into 2 infinitely different ones?
Too many
Not good idea.